to the right honourable the lords and commons assembled in parliament. the humble petition of many of the gentry, ministers, free-holders, and other inhabitants of the county of kent, and the cities of olders, and other inhabitants of the county of kent, and the cities of canterbury and rochester, and county of canterbury, with the cinque ports, and their members, and other corporations within the said county. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription b06148 of text r233632 in the english short title catalog (wing t1681). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 5 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-iv tiff page image. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 b06148 wing t1681 estc r233632 53299325 ocm 53299325 180051 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. b06148) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 180051) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 2811:18) to the right honourable the lords and commons assembled in parliament. the humble petition of many of the gentry, ministers, free-holders, and other inhabitants of the county of kent, and the cities of olders, and other inhabitants of the county of kent, and the cities of canterbury and rochester, and county of canterbury, with the cinque ports, and their members, and other corporations within the said county. england and wales. parliament. 1 sheet ([1] p.) printed for william larnar, london : 1642. "this petition was delivered and read in the house of commons the fifth of may 1642 with 8000 hands thereto." caption title. reproduction of original in: bodleian library. eng reformation -england -sources. kent (england) -politics and government -early works to 1800. canterbury (england) -politics and government -early works to 1800. great britain -politics and government -1642-1649 -early works to 1800. broadsides -england -17th century. b06148 r233632 (wing t1681). civilwar no to the right honourable the lords and commons assembled in parliament. the humble petition of many of the gentry, ministers, free-holders, a [no entry] 1642 800 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 a this text has no known defects that were recorded as gap elements at the time of transcription. 2008-01 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2008-01 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-02 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2008-02 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion to the right honourable the lords and commons assembled in parliament . the humble petition of many of the gentry , ministers , free-holders , and other inhabitants of the county of kent , and the cities of canterbury and rochester , and county of canterbury , with the cinque ports , and their members , and other corporations within the said county , most humbly sheweth , that your petitioners , or many of them have heretofore exhibited to both houses of parliament a petition concurring with those of the renowned city of london , and other severall counties of this kingdome , expressing their true zeale to true religion in the pure worship of god , and their loving affections to the kings most excellent majesty , both houses , and the kingdomes : that your poore petitioners doe with all humility returne their utmost thankes unto this honourable assembly , for your favourable and gentle acceptance of their petition , your great care and vigilancy , and uncessant labours for the advancement of the true reformed religion , the honor and welfare of his majesty , and his kingdomes , and for your continued endeavours for a right understanding betweene his majesty , and his parliament ; for your instant addresse to his majesty , to disswade him from his personall expedition for ireland , and especially for that to us so welcome declaration of lords and commons , april 9. 1642. concerning your pious intentions for a necessary reformation , which renewes our hopes , and we hope will further your account in the day or the lord , who are come up as saviours on mount sion , and that your petitioners ; doe most heartily rejoyce to behold the happy union of both houses of parliament , and the mutuall concurrence of them and the whole kingdome , wherein under his majesty , the safety of all the three kingdomes doe consist . yet your petitioners cannot but plainly expresse with what sad hearts they thinke on the many evill occurrents which interrupt your unparalelled paines , and intercept the fruit of your faithfull counsels , from us among which this is not the least ( viz. ) a petition ( as we conceive ) of dangerous consequence , and published at the last generall assises holden for this county at maidstone , and then ( yea , yet ) advanced for subscribers , intended to be exhibited to this honourable house , as the petition of the whole body of this county , to cause the whole kingdom to beleeve that petition to be the act of the whole county of kent ( or the major part thereof ) whereby a great blemish and scandall is brought upon this loyall and peaceable county , being styled the kentish petition , which we know is not the act of the body of the county , as it seemeth to speak , for as much as it was disavowed by many of the then grand jury , and justices on the bench , and by all us your petitioners , whose names are under-written . 1. wherefore our humble prayer is , that your honours would be pleased first to accept this our vindication of our selves and this county , who utterly disclaime the said petition , humbly leaving it to the wisdome , justice and clemency of this honourable assembly , to difference betweene the active contrivers and promoters , and unadvised subscribers thereof . 2. to lift up your hearts above all discouragements in the wayes of the lord , according to that your so religious resolutions for reformation in the church , for a consultation with godly and learned divines , and for the establishing of a preaching ministry throughout the whole kingdome : and we your petitioners being sensible , that to oppose or flight his majesties parliament , and the orders thereof , were to hazzard the safety of his majesties royall person , and all his kingdomes , and to further the designes of our enemies , who hope by causing our division , to triumph in our confusion . and we your petitioners are unanimously resolved to maintaine and defend , as far as lawfully we may , with our lives , power and estates , his majesties royall person and dignities , as also the power and priviledges of his parliament , according to our protestation . and shall daily pray that your hands may be sufficient for you to accomplish every good worke . this petition was delivered , and read in the house of commons the fifth of may , 1642. with 8000. hands thereto . london printed for william larnar . 1642. considerations toward a peaceable reformation in matters ecclesiasticall submitted to the judicious reader / by calybute downing. downing, calybute, 1606-1644. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a36494 of text r6648 in the english short title catalog (wing d2100). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 10 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a36494 wing d2100 estc r6648 13089646 ocm 13089646 97353 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a36494) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 97353) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 256:e179, no 7) considerations toward a peaceable reformation in matters ecclesiasticall submitted to the judicious reader / by calybute downing. downing, calybute, 1606-1644. 8 p. printed by richard hearn, london : 1641. reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng reformation -england. great britain -church history -17th century -sources. a36494 r6648 (wing d2100). civilwar no considerations toward a peaceable reformation in matters ecclesiasticall. submitted to the judicious reader, by calybute downing· downing, calybute 1641 1737 3 0 0 0 0 0 17 c the rate of 17 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2006-10 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-11 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-01 celeste ng sampled and proofread 2007-01 celeste ng text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion considerations toward a peaceable reformation in matters ecclesiasticall . submitted to the judicious reader , by calybute downing . london , printed by richard hearn . anno dom. 1641. considerations towards a peaceable reformation in matters ecclesiasticall . 1. that the straightest , and so the shortest rule , to compose differences in wayes , is to agree of ends ; for deliberations are not duly drawne up , when the designe is uncertaine . hee that hath no certaine port , hath no certain winde : therefore it were to bee wished , before wee goe too farre in collaterall heats , and divertive retardings in diversity of projects , that we well understood what reformation of our church doth import in a sober sense : for untill that be fore-laid , and allowed by an universall vote , it will be very easie for the averse partie to blast all blessed beginnings , and to raise rubbish to become a rocke , or at least a remora of our reformation . 2. that the worke in hand is not planting of a church , laying fundamentals , nor onely the reducing of practises to fore-laid principles , but the perfecting and improving , cum effictis , those orders and ordinances that have beene either omitted or corrupted ; and in the removin● what doth pregnantly produce such distempers : that so wee may secure future relapses by reall clauses conservative . 3. that though the rule of supernaturals is not defective , nor difficult in the necessaries to the beeing or well beeing of the catholique church ; yet in relation to the better being of particular churches , there must be beating out of advantages by serious consideration of consequences ; not as to single salvation , but in respect of common edification , as we are collectively considered in a visible societie : now the fewer deductions that wee admit , the safer it is , both in relation to humane reason , and antichristian tyranny , which runnes up all into authority ; which is brought in not onely as auxiliarie , but as authentique also in a concurrent way . 4. that it is very safe , and savours of a prudent and peaceable spirit , not easily to conclude many things in governement , iure divino ; for as fundamentals in point of beliefe are few , and fully revealed , and soberly to be held without any supplementive additionals ; and the admitting of more is the cause of all the mischievous miseries in the church in point of doctrine : so it sets us at a distance from peace , at defiance amongst our selves , and disableth all accommodation , to pitch downe a governement iure divino ; yea , produces many hard charges , prejudicating the truth of god ; and gives ground plausibly to arrest and attaint religion , for suspition of disturbance or incroachment , by such fore-stalling the civill state , and rendring the businesse of reformation for the future impossible . 5. that though in a degenerate time , and church , it be well and wisely done to discover as much as may be for information , as necessary to reformation ; yet wee may doe as well to be wary , that we discard not all wee dislike with the same degree of detestation : so that as we have cause not to blesse all that we would have , with a iure divine , so we may finde reason not to blast all that we desire should be removed , with an antichristian brand : for we are firre from peace , while wee put ill-sounding consequences upon other mens opinions and practises , or by provoking parallels , or envious aggravations , represent them odious . this is very hardly to be avoyded , where affaires are carried with few heads and many hands ; and when they take destructive worke to be their way , and that to have most of justice which hath most of primitive proceedings in it . this course hath cost christendome deare , for seldome any councels but fell fowle upon opinions by extreame sentences : now though middle councels are seldome safe in affaires of state , yet seldome hurtfull in businesse of the church . 6. that though it be unpleasing , and may prove pernitious , peremptorily to lay downe a way of governement , iure divino , to the decrying of all others in an exclusive way ; yet it is very reasonable and conformable to the principles of a christian church , to propose the designes iuris divini , coasting in all consultations closest , to that which is by divine permission of approbation ; as what is most for christian peace , freest from scandall , fullest for edification , most for the glory of god : which rules binde not onely because they are written , but also because they are reason . and in thus doing wee shall bee true to the end and reason of the state , which is to be a most christian nationall church . 7. that as change is no wise mans choice , but h●●d chance often puts him to yeeld to it , who would never positively have pitched upon it for a remedy ; so it is reason in alterations to take care that some things which are mutable , as to their originall , be not too easily changed upon colour of inconvenience , without such a necessity as is as easily discovered : for as it is dangerous ●● venter upon the inconveniences of any great alteration , so it will be difficult to avoid the like grievances upon the same grounds , because if we change now evill for good , upon mens advice , why may wee not change againe for the better ; and so we shall alwayes be medling under the consideration of mending : and while we complaine of innovations , wee shall doe nothing but innovate . 8. that we shall doe well to distinguish upon what is to be reformed , whether the corruptions be incorporated by custome , have colour of law , or are meere matter of fact , which doe rise and fall with a faction : dis-usage to carry men off insensibly , may be safe in the first ; over-ruling by interpretation in the second ; and exemplary discountenance in the third ; for where such men get no heat , they will take no cold . and so we shall appeare , such as seeke more to remove what we feare then what we hate . 9. that as it is a slip in judgement to confound persons and things , fact and law , in a destructive way , so it may be an errour in good desires ; and something dash our designe to goe direct and downe-right wayes , though to upright ends in point of edification , without allowance of due time for men to see reason in what is laid downe as a rule : for all sudden departures are dangerous and offensive , as prodigious ; therefore it may be a consideration worthy the weighing , and will prove a great assurance of peace , to lay foundations of governement at a good latitude , that the reformation may bee of a growing constitution ; and so may beare up against corruption ; as well underlaid by its owne good temper , and not onely stand or fall by the temper or distempers of men . 10. that if it be not well to goe on in provoking wayes , when t is possible to pacifie and sweeten , then it is not wise to stirre many matters at once , because many matters engage many men ; yea , many times move more than is fit to bee removed , or to bee discovered moveable : therefore in punishing persons , reformers shall doe well to be tender of the honour of offices ; and in discarding superstition in point of places , times , and performances , take heed of fostering prophanenesse in any of those respects , i confesse t is hardly to be avoyded , but that party which is to suffer reformation , must needs for the time be neare to ruine : for many that hate the clergies canons and orders , love not gods commandements nor ordinances . 11. that though civill states may be free from temporall turnes and interests in the reformation they designe on the church , yet they shall hardly avoid the suspition of it , if the clergy be not respectively called to consultation : therefore it may be well , and is expected that there bee communicating not onely in a private way with men , whose mindes they know afore-hand , and it may be , have already suggested their sence ; but with such also as are dis-ingaged and resolved to be reserved untill such a time , as a publique agitation may give ground to declare their judgements ; this will be of no ill influence upon the whole worke in relation to the christian world . 12. that seeing politique lawes should be laid in with morall possibility , and multiplicity of commands makes them impossible , as well as the difficulty of the duties ; therefore it is beleeved a good course not to over-lay any state with positive penall lawes , promissarie oathes , discovering subscriptions , or multitude of ceremonies ; especially a church that hath the law of god as a perfect rule of doctrine , manners , and necessarie discipline : but let the things be few that are required , and then let them bee strongly commanded . for many indifferent things have cost too deare , having beene put on too hard upon pious and peaceable men , without any accommodation or tolleration : thus without cases reserved to an arbirrarie power , conscientious men may bee moderately dealt with , that they complaine not of a rigorous remedy as a grievance and persecution of mankinde . finis . a remarkable revelation of the wandrings of the church of england i idolatry, superstition and ceremonies from the first motion throught each particular station to the first great period : in parallell with the children of israel in the desert from rameses to mount sinai / by h. walker ... walker, henry, ironmonger. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a67240 of text r4877 in the english short title catalog (wing w382). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 15 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a67240 wing w382 estc r4877 13471961 ocm 13471961 99703 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a67240) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 99703) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 255:e172, no 24) a remarkable revelation of the wandrings of the church of england i idolatry, superstition and ceremonies from the first motion throught each particular station to the first great period : in parallell with the children of israel in the desert from rameses to mount sinai / by h. walker ... walker, henry, ironmonger. [8] p. printed by tho. harper, [london?] : 1641. reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng church of england -customs and practices. church of england -controversial literature. reformation -england. a67240 r4877 (wing w382). civilwar no a remarkable revelation of the wandrings of the church of england in idolatry, superstition, and ceremonies, from the first motion throught walker, henry, ironmonger 1641 2747 47 0 0 0 0 0 171 f the rate of 171 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the f category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2003-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-08 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-09 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2003-09 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a remarkable revelation of the wandrings of the church of england in idolatry , superstition , and ceremonies , from the first motion through each particular station to the first great period . in parallell with the children of israel in the desert from rameses to mount sinai . by h. walker cantab. printed by tho : harper . 1641. a remarkable revelation . paul tells us that the journeyes of the old church , the isralites , is to be remembred of us , that wee may profitably bring it to our owne estate ; and he calleth their wandring ▪ and stations , and what in them fell out , types and examples to us , 1 cor. 10. their standings and journeyes were 42. which number , as austin saith , is rare and excellent , comprehending 6. and 7. which being multiplyed make 42. to teach us , that as after six dayes of the worlds creation the lord rested on the seventh day , to the children of israel after six sevens , that is 42. journeyes of pilg●image , entred into the land of canaan , the country of rest . in par●llell of which 42. moneth of yeares , or propheticall dayes , amounting to 1260. yeares , doth reveale the space of time of the english churches pilgrimage and wandrings in the popish ceremonies , before she be brought to the canaan of true reformation . i. the first station of the children of israel was at rameses , gen : 47. 11. where they being opprest by cruell bondage under pharaoh , as is exprest in the twelve first chapters of the booke of exodus , were forced to wander towards the wilder●esse . this was fulfilled in our english christian church in the dayes of gratianus , who ruled this our brittish nation , anno dom. 390. who being brought under foot , subdued and spoyled by the picts , were forced to send to rome for ayd , siricius being bishop there : at which time the pride and unsatiable avarice of the clergy was so great , that they drew the empero●rs to assist them in the establishing of such wicked lawes as proved then the undoing and impoverishing of many subjects . plat : de vita pont f. lege 27. de epis. & clo. in c. th. ii. the israelites removed from rameses to succoth , ex. 12. 37 , a journey of 8. miles , which they undertooke when like distracted and forlorne people they were constrained to carry their dough to bake at succoth , because they were thrust out of rameses , exod. 12. 39. this was fulfilled in this our land , after gratianus was dispatched , anno dom. 420. when the brittish were without any certaine government , the cl●rgy being the chiefe ; and the people were so sore distracted , that they were constrained to petition to aldrocnus ( a king in france ) to send his brother constantine to varquish their enemies , and be made their king , before they could bake ▪ their dough in peace ▪ holl. fol. 108. iii. the israelitish church removed from succoth , and pitched in etham , exod. 13. 20. a journey of 8. miles , which was the entry of so vast a desert , that had not god been to them a pillar of a cloud by day , and of fire by night , they had all perished in the wildernesse , and beene u●terly ruined and destroyed , vers. 21. this was fulfilled in our brittish nation in the dayes of vortiger ▪ who by treason , fraud , and great deceit , being made king , did with his nobles and prelates live in su●h gluttony , le●hery , and other vices , anno dom. 450. that practising so great enormities , each man turned the point of his speare against the godly and innocent persons , holl. fol. 110. it was onely gods providence that stayed the utter destruction and ruine of the whole nation . iv. the old church of israel removed from etham to migdol , exod. 14 2. that i● 16. mil●s , where the people were in that distresse , that being p●r●ued by pharaoh , when the red sea was before them , and mountaines ( over which it was not possible for them to passe ) on both sides of them , could see no way to escape : yet by gods miraculous deliverance they passed over the sea dry shod , and the waves fell upon pharaoh , and drowned him and his hoast , as is exprest in the said 14 chap. of exo●us . this was fulfill●d in our christian brittish church , anno 480. when whilst vortiger , his n●bles and prelates did cast off religion , and persecute the people of god , there fell miraculously fire from heaven upon the castle where they were with the king , and the house fell upon them , and the fire burnt and consumed them . h. hunt. v. they of the israelitish church removed from migdol , and pitched in marah , exod. 15 23. a journey of 40. miles , where the water was too bitter for the people to drinke , untill god directed them to a tree , which being dipt in those waters did make them sweet , verse 25. this was fulfilled in this our brittish church , anno dom. 510. in the reigne of uterpendragon , who being himselfe exceeding lustfull , which vice did the more increase in him , because it was countenanced by the clergy that were about him , by whose policy and magicke was mixt a bitter cup for the people , not onely to delude the ladies to uncleannesse , but to deprive the nobles of their lives , till it pleased god to direct the grave worthies of his councell , through their consultations to contrive way for a redresse , isa. cr. holl. fol. 128. vi . the israelites removed from marah , and pitched their sixth station in elim , exod. 15. 27. a journey of 8. miles , where the people like pilgrims were faine to ●it by the wells , where multitudes of harts resorted , with other beasts from among the palmes , to refresh themselves with the water thereof . tr. pet. this was fulfilled in this our brittish church , in the dayes of k. arthur , anno dom. 540. when amongst the people the right faith was not ●nely brought into great danger by the pelagian heresie , then broched by naughty persons , but the whole body of christian religion was utterly abolished , so far as the saxons prevailed , who ( at this time ) disquieted the brita nes by cruell war●es , whereby they were driven to hide themselves in woods , and pitch their situations by the water brooks . vii . the isra●litish church removed from elim to suph , that was 6. miles southw●rd ▪ where they rested themselves by the red sea , numb 33. 10. g●d seeing their murmurings at the waters of marah , and knowing how ready they were to rebell against him , brought them backe to behold againe the place where pharaoh and his hoast was overthrowne , to put them in remembrance that they give eare to gods commandements , and keepe his ordinances , genes . 15. 26. this was fulfilled in this our brittish church , anno dom. 570. when almighty god seeing the uncleannesse of the clergy , and the abominations of the governours , brought them againe into great distresse , suff●ring their enemies to prevaile against them , by bringing in cutha , the brother of cheuling , king of the west saxons , to fall upon them , by whom their ungodly governours were slaine ; admonishing them to repent and turne to the lord , and give eare to his commandements , lest they also perish . ales●a . gilda . viii . the children o● israel passed from suph , and pitched their eighth station at sin , that is 16. miles journey from elim , which they made two j●urneyes of as b●fore , exod. 16. 1. where the whole congregation fell againe to mu●muring for want of victuals ; for their hearts did hanker after the fleshp●ts of egypt , yet the lord looked in m●●cy upon them , and sent them manna from heaven , as is exprest , exod. 16. this was fulfilled in our land , ann. dom. 600. when the people were turned to paganisme , and had turned from the lord , and were become as heathens , in the dayes of ethelbert , whose heart the lord directed to marry the lady bertha of france a religious princesse , who with some godly divines that came with her , and other religious p●ople that were about h●r , who fearing god , used prayers in the court , and practised other duties of christian religion , whereby , by the heavenly working of gods spirit ( in the processe of time ) the thick mists of unb●liefe was removed , and their hearts prepared to the receiving of the gospell , which afterwards was preached to the whole church , and published through the whole land ; at which time ●ustine , and others , sent from the bishop of rome , preached and baptized in our church ▪ and the people received the word of god , isak cro. beda . will. mal. math. west . ix . the old israelitish church removed from sin , and pitched in dophka , which was twelve miles , numb. 33. 12. this journey was through many bushes and thorny places , which grew in this part of the wildernesse , tr. ●atr . t●is was fulfilled in the dayes of edwin , ann. dom. 630. a king of mighty power , yet through great difficulty brought to beleeve the gospel : hee loved the lady ethelburga , but could not obtaine her , except upon condition of permitting her , and whomsoever shee would have with her , to use and practise the christian religion , bed. lib ▪ 2 ▪ c. 9. he called a councell to hv●e the matter treated on having married her she used all the meanes she could for his conversion . then againe he was held back by seeking revenge against his enemies : still his queene used meanes to prevaile with him as farre as shee could ; whereupon he called together the wis●st men of his realm , and asked them the question , what they thought of this divinity , hol. fol. 161. they gave their consent , that it ought to be received ; whereupon he gave license to one pauline to preach the gospell , and from that time forwards himselfe professed the christian faith . and when he demanded of one c●ifi , an idolatrous bishop , who had beene very great with him , who should first deface the altars of their idols , and the tabernacles with which they were compassed about , he answered , that he himselfe would doe it ; for what is more meet , saith he , than that i , which through foolishnesse have worshipped them , should now for example-sake destroy the same , through wisdome given me from the true and living god ; and straightwayes ( throwing away the superstition of vanity ) required armour and weapons of the king ; and being mounted upon a stately steed , he rode forth to destroy the idols . this was a strange sight to the people , for it was not lawfull for a bishop of their law to put on armour , or to ride on any beast , except it were a mare ; therefore the common people seeing him ride on the kings horse , with a sword by his side , and a speare in his hand , had thought he had beene starke mad , and out of his wits ; but he without longer deliberation , incontinently upon his comming to the temple , began to deface the same , and in contempt , threw his speare against it , and commanded the company about him to destroy and burne downe the same temple , with all the altars , holl. pag. 161. x. the israelitish church removed from dophka , and pitched at alus , numb. 33. 12. which was twelve miles . they began now to come into that part of the wildernesse which was both pleasant , fruitfull , and stored with variety of comfortable herbs , that so they might refresh themselves after their troublesome journey through the thorns and bushes , tra. patr. this was fulfilled in this english church , in the reigne of os●y , ann. dom. 660. when the gospell began to flourish , penda , who ruled one part of this land , he was converted by a lady , whom he loved , that was a christian . the last saxons also received the christian faith , and banished their ungodly idolatrous bishops , and the word of god was preached thorow the whole land , to the great increase and enlarging of the church of christ , beda lib. 3. cap. 21 & 22. yet in these dayes sprang up weeds also , for now they began to sing divine service after the popish manner . theodore the archbishop , finding the church of rochester void by the death of the last bishop , named damian , he ordained one putta , a simple man , to make a bishop , but well skilled in songs and musicke , to use such forme in the church , after the manner as he had learned of pope gregories disciples . xi . the israelites removed from alus , and pitched in rephidim , eight miles , exod. 17. 1. and during the time of their abode there , three things are very remarkable . first , the people did murmure for want of water , and god relieved them , secondly , amaleck fought against israel , and was overcome . thirdly , rulers were set over the people , because of the hardnesse of their hearts . these three were all fulfilled , ann. dom. 690. in parallel of the first , when etholburga ( seeing her lord and king given to great wickednesse , and ungodly living ) did labour earnestly to bring him to repentance , but finding his heart like a rocke of stone , did cause hi● stately hangings to be taken downe , and his rich bedding and furniture to be taken away , and the chamber to be mired with dung and filth , and laid a dirty sow with her pigges , in the same bed where before they had lien . the king beholding such an alteration in his pleasant palace , was mightily humbled ; wept , and mourned , and was thereby cast downe so low , that he resigned up his kingdome to his cosin , and forsooke all his glory , will . malm. in parallel of the second , the same story doth expresse her conquering event against the innovation of sinne and satan , wrought in her husband through gods mercy , will . malm. in parallel of the third , it is recorded , that about this time also there was great strife about church government , at which time brightwald ( the eighth archbishop in number , but the first of the english nation ) was seated in the see of canterbury , for his predecessors were not born in england , but sent from rome . thus endeth the first great period or division of journeyes , before they came to mount sinai , where they received the commandements in two tables of stone . finis . the church of england truly represented according to dr. heylins history of the reformation : in justification of her royal highness the late dutchess [sic] of yorks paper. 1686 approx. 30 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 11 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a33074) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 40256) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1202:7) the church of england truly represented according to dr. heylins history of the reformation : in justification of her royal highness the late dutchess [sic] of yorks paper. york, anne hyde, duchess of, 1637-1671. 18 p. [s.n.], london : 1686. master microform held by: unm. reproduction of original in the union theological seminary library, new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng heylyn, peter, 1600-1662. -ecclesia restaurata. church of england -history. reformation -england. 2002-08 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2002-09 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2002-10 john latta sampled and proofread 2002-10 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2002-12 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the church of england truly represented , according to dr. heylins history of the reformation , in justification of her royal highness the late dutchess of yorks paper . induantur qui detrahunt mihi , pudore : & operiantur sicut diploide confusione sua , psal. 108. v. 28. london , printed for the author , and sold by matthew turner near turn-stile in holbourn , 1686. the church of england truly represented , &c. the ignis fatuus of reformation struck by collision out of the lustful and violent desires of king henry the eighth , and the opposition made to them by the pope : the riches of abbeys and monasteries , still administring new matter unto it all the reign of that unhappy prince ; grew to the prodigy of a comet in the immature years of his son king edward the sixth , by many acts of spoil and rapine even to a high degree of sacriledge on chanteries , bishopricks , hospitals and churches , and wandering as in exile all the time of queen mary , about zurick , basil , geneva , but chiefly about frankfort ; is thus again usher'd into the land by that great luminary of his church dr. heylin to be refin'd of the filth it had drawn unto it from the lakes in the alpes , and to be new moulded and formed into a church by queen elizabeth to make good here legitimation . she ( says he ) knew full well , that her legitimation and the popes supremacy could not stand together , and that she could not possibly maintain the one without a discarding of the other . and what follows , we more feelingly know than dr. heylin , viz. that the answer of the pope according to his accustomed vigour : that the kingdom of england was held in fee of the apostolick see ; that she could not succeed being illegitimate ; that he could not contradict the declarations of clement the seventh , and paul the third ; that it was a great boldness to assume the name , and government of it without him , was not only the foundation of the church of england , but also of all the distractions and miseries this poor land has suffer'd from that day to this . and all this upon a frivolous account of a pretended donation of this kingdom to the pope by king iohn the usurper ; which had been equally frivolous , had he been never so lawfull a king. but ! what a bottom is this to build a church upon ? and to forsake the communion of a church professed so many hundreds of years , and established by so many laws in the nation ; because forsooth the queens legitimation , and the pope's supremacy could not stand together ? we read , that the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church of christ : but had the pope , and the queen , known how to have adjusted their differences , this ignis fatuus had been extinguisht in the lake of geneva , and the church of england had never been seen , nor heard of in the world . and will any man in his wits repose his hopes of salvation in a church , that came from so bare an accident , so meer a chance as this , midwived into the world by a maiden queen to make good her legitimation ? moreover , we read , that christ will be with his church to the end of the world . but ( i pray ) when did he begin to be with this church ? was it when the queen had made good her legitimation ? she has not done it yet . but , ( as dr. heylin well observes ) bacon was not to be told of an old law-maxime ; that the crown takes away all defects : which , it seems , in the language of the law , was a tantamount to a legitimation ; and on this tantamount was first erected the crown , and on that the church ; as tho' the law-makers ever meant , that that odd scrap of law should be extended to legitimate , whom the law had illigitimated ; which , if so , might as well have legitimated the rebellion of oliver cromwel , ( had he clapt the crown on his head , ) and made him a lawful king , tho he had been a bastard into the bargain . and now , i think , here is enough said of the fundamental and final cause of the church of england , viz. the pope's accustomed rigour , and the queens legitimation . i will now proceed to consider the embryo of this church in the rest of her causes , according to dr. heylin , and then i hope i shall have truly represented her according to her best , and most beloved historian . i find no greater enemies to reformations , than reformers ; each reformer , like the ape in the story , thinking his own brat the fairest , would have no reformation stand good but his own ; and therefore reviles and flouts at the rest as whimseys and phancys ; as indeed they are no better , nor his own neither . who ever saw more bitter scolding , than between the lutherans , the zuinglians , and the calvinists ? the worst of men cannot be represented greater villains , than they represent each other ; and , if a man considers them rightly , he will find no other truth but this in all their volums ; and yet some of them are very voluminous too . in like manner does the presbyterian revile and flout at the church of england in his cobler of gloucester ; and serves her up to his readers in whole cart loads of debauched ministers and prophane bishops : but indeed the church of england reviles and ridicules the presbyterian with much more wit and far greater civility in her hudibras : but , with too much rigour too : for she will not allow sow-gelders when they wind their horns to geld a cat , to cry reform : nor an oyster-wench to shut up shop , and trudge about to cry no bishop ; as tho' sow-gelders might not as well cry reform the church of england , as a pack of laymen in parliament , cry , reform the church of rome ; or as tho' an oyster-wench might not as well cry no bishop , as queen elizabeth cry no pope . how can it enter into the head of an episcopal man , that a church of so long standing , as the r. catholick church had been of continuance in england , & backt by so many old laws , could on a suddain be lay'd aside , with all her doctrins , and a new one foisted into her place with new ones , without either patriark of the west , primates of the land , or bishops at all to it . this is the case of the church england , and dr. heylin makes it out as clear , as ever the sun shin'd at noon day . he tells you , that in the beginning of that parliament , 1. eliz. which parliament made , and establisht the church , that the oath of supremacy was tendered to the bishops ; upon the refusal whereof , they were cast out of parliament , all but bishop kitching who took the oath , but never was protestant notwithstanding . then it is evident , that the old bishops were not in parliament at the devising and making of this church . he begins the 2 d. year of queen elizabeth with the consecrating of the new bishops , parker and the rest ; then they were not in parliament neither at the devising and making of this church : for the church was made and establisht in the first year of q. elizabeth , & the church to this day dates from this first of elizabeth , as rome did formerly ab urbe condita : and therefore my lord chancellor finch in an eloquent speech to the parliament , learnedly declared unto them , that she was a church now of above a hundred years standing , meaning from this first of elizabeth : then you see that dr. heylin has made it as clear as the sun , that there were no bishops at all at the making of this church . men of the gospel , now tell me , are not bishops of the essence of god's church ? no episcopal man ever deny'd it . and men of the law , tell me , are not bishops so of the essence of this government , that there can be no parliament without them ? no lawyer can deny it . then here is a church set up in spite of god , and in defiance to the fundamental laws of the land. and this forsooth is your church by law establisht ! establisht ! with a non obstante to the very essence of the government by bishops , which god set over his church ; and to the essence and foundation of th● government of this realm : so that , unless the deserting of one church for lust , spoil , rapin , and sacriledge be the setting up , making and establishing of another ; there has been neither church made , nor setled , nor establisht since the defection from the church of rome in england to this present time . then is it not severe , that after all this ado and noise of a church , articles , tests , laws penal and sanguinary to compel men from their consciences , there should not be the least semblance or shadow of a church to invite them unto : nor had the queen with her lay-parliament any more power or authority by the laws of god , and his church founded on episcopacy , to make , alter , or establish a church , than has the parliament of women , and the poor man that crys it up and down the town , power , or authority to make a religion , and establish it when he had done , by crying it about the streets : nor do i see how it is possible for any episcopal man to have confidence to pretend the contrary . with good reason then did the late dutchess of york of happy memory declare , that instead of satisfaction in the history of the reformation recommended to her for that purpose , she found nothing , but the description of the horridest sacriledges in the world ; and could find no reason why we left the church , but for three the most abominable ones , that were ever heard of amongst christians . first , henry 8 th renounces the popes authority , because he would not give him leave to part with his wife , and marry an other in her life time . secondly , edward 6 th was a child , and governed by his vnkle , who made his estate out of church-lands , and then queen e. who being no lawful heiress to the crown , could have no way to keep it , but by renouncing a church , that could never suffer so unlawful a thing to be done by one of her children . i confess , i cannot think the holy ghost could be in such counsels . the church being thus truly represented , and shewed to be nothing ; it must necessarily follow , that her bishops and priests are likewise nothing , as to any power or mission , they can pretend to : and how shall they preach , unless they be sent ? for in a bishop , is required not only ordination , but also spiritual jurisdiction and mission , and both these are derived not from kings , or queens , but immediately from christ by succession from the apostles : then the church of england being nothing , and in communion with no other episcopal church ; by what succession will her bishops derive their powers from the apostles ? do they think the church of rome sent them to preach the doctrine of the thirty nine articles ? no , it cannot be so imagin'd ; and therefore the presbyterians derive their mission extraordinarily from god by the spirit : well knowing , that it were impossible for them to derive it ordinarily , by succession through the church of rome from christ and his apostles . so that 't is a clear case that the pretended bishops of england have no mission nor power at all , to do what they do , but from lay authority . but , indeed , as to the ordination , it is quite an other thing : for the arian and donatist bishops were true bishops as to ordination , tho by apostacy and heresie they had lost their mission . and dr. heylin pretends the like of the bishops of the church of england : and to clear all doubts to the contrary , tells us , that the story of the first four bishops of his church being merrily ordained at the naggs-head tavern in cheapside , was but the invention chiefly of one neal , once hebrew reader in oxford , and chaplain to bishop bonner , and dr. sanders ; and thus like an erudite protestant , learnedly and compendiously confutes them both : sanders he calls slanders ; and as for the other , it is enough that he was once chaplain to bonner , and so their business is soon done . he also tells us , that george abbot , archbishop of canterbury , caused several priests and jesuits , then prisoners in the clink to be brought before him : who being brought to lambeth the twelfth of may , 1613. were suffered in the presence of diverse bishops to peruse the publick registers , and thereby to satisfy themselves in all particulars concerning the confirmation and consecration of archbishop parker . dr. heylin is indeed a very punctual man ; you see he sets down exactly the day of the month , and the year this happened , viz. the twelfth of may , 1613. but bishop parker was consecrated in the second year of queen elizabeth , 1559. then where were these registers all this while ? dr. sanders , dr. harding , dr. stapleton , even in the time of archbishop parker , and to himself called his consecration in question , and denyed it , without any reply either from himself or any body else in his behalf . then where were at that time these same registers ? but suppose these registers true , and that the consecration was at lambeth , and the consecration-dinner only at the naggs-head , did not multitudes of people flock to see the great solemnity of consecrating the first four new bishops of the novel church ? and was not the dinner well attended on by multitudes both of men and women ( for they are also curious , especially in church affairs ) and were all these men and women dead on a suddain , that none should be left alive to witness against neal and sanders , that they saw parker consecrated at lambeth ? or could so great a man as dr. sanders have the confidence to broach such a tale ( as dr. heylin calls it ) when multitudes of eye-witnesses were alive to give him the lye ? had those registers been found out in any competent time , and flapt in the faces of neal and sanders , and the rest who reproached the church with her naggs-head consecration , they might all have been justly called slanderses ; but instead of finding such registers , the church and state politickly combined to renew the statutes against tellers of false news , that a poor papist if he passed through cheapside , durst not so much as look toward that side of the street , where the naggs-head stood , for fear of being punisht as a teller of false news : for the looks of a papist in those days boaded false news ; as a wash-ball in his pocket of late boded 〈◊〉 firing of the city . and indeed , to produce these registers fifty four years after the time , and not before , when neal and sanders , the vintner of the naggs-head , his wife , drawers , and all were dead ; was to as much purpose , as if they had left them at salamanca in dr. oates his library to be brought over with the forty thousand pilgrims , 1678. september , the lord knows when ; for oates did not confine himself to a day as dr. heylin , and mason the forge●● of the registers did . but dr. heylin treats of this matter here en passant only , and refers his readers for their further satisfaction to the begining of his eight and last book , where thus he tells his own tale worth any mans reading . nothing remaineth , but that we settle the episcopal government ; and then it will be time to conclude this history . and for the settling of this government by as good authority , as could be given unto it by the laws of the land , we are beholding to the obstinacy of dr. edmund bonner , late slaughter-man of london . by a statute made in the last parliament for keeping her majesties subjects in due obedience , a power was given unto the bishops to tender , and receive the oath of supremacy to all manner of persons dwelling and residing in their several dioceses . bonner was then prisoner in the clink or marshalsee ; which being in the borrough of southwark , brought him within the iurisdiction of horn bishop of winchester , by whose chancellour the oath was tendered unto him : on the refusal of which oath , he is indicted at the kings bench upon the statute : to which he appeared in some term of the year foregoing , &c. the second principal plea was this , that horn at the time the oath was tendered , was not bishop of winchester , and therefore not impowred by the said statute to make tender of it by himself , or by his chancellour . and for the proof of this , that he was no bishop , it was alledged , that the form of consecration of archbishops and bishops , which had been ratify'd by parliament in the time of king edward , had been repealed in the first year of queen mary , and so remained at horn's pretended consecration . the cause being put off from term to term , comes at last to be debated amongst the iudges at serjeants inn , by whom it was finally put upon the issue , and the tryal of that issue ordered to be committed to a iury of the county of surry : but then withall , it was advised , that the decision of the point , should rather be referred to the following parliament , for fear that such a weighty matter might miscarry by a country iury , of whose either partiality , or insufficiency , there had been some proof made before touching the grants made by king edwards bishops , of which a great many were made void , under pretence that the grantors were not actually bishops , nor legally possessed of their several sees . according to this sound advice , the business comes under consideration in the following parliament , which begun on the thirtyeth of september , where all particulars being fully , and consideratly discoursed upon , it was first declared , that their not restoring that book to the former power in terms significant , and express , was but casus omissus ; and secondly , that by the statutes fifth and sixth of edward the sixth , it had been added to the book of common prayer , and administration of the sacraments , as a member of it , or at least an appendant to it ; and therefore by the first of elizabeth was restored again , together with the said book of common prayer , intentionally at the least , if not in terminis . but being that the words of the said statute were not clear enough to remove all doubts , they did therefore revive it now , and did accordingly enact , that all persons that had been , or should be made , ordered , or consecrated arch-bishops , bishops , priests , ministers of god's holy words , and sacraments , or deacons after the form and order prescribed in the said book , be in very deed , and also by authority hereof declared and enacted to be , and shall be arch-bishops , bishops , priests , ministers of god's holy words and sacraments , and deacons rightly made , consecrated and ordered , any statute , law , canon , or any thing to the contrary notwithstanding . a bold parliament indeed , that thus generously bids defiance to all laws and statutes ever made in the world , to all canons ever made in god's church , and to every thing else whatsoever . to good purpose then did saint gregory the great , and bishop lawd after him , declare that they gave the like credit to the first four general councils , as to the four evangelists ; when an english parliament shall come and enact and declare bishops in the form they please with a non obstante to all the powers of heaven and earth , or any thing to the contrary notwithstanding , i. e. of hell too . but being that dr. heylin tells us , that this business , was onely fully and considerately discoursed upon in parliament ; it may i hope yet bear a further discussion and canvassing . you see , here were many doubts whether these bishops were rightly consecrated or not . first , because the form of consecration made in king edwards days , was declared void and null in the first year of queen mary ; and as yet has never been allowed in the church of rome . secondly , because you see , there was a casus omissus , and the form of king edward was not restored in terms express and significant , which is requisite in law. thirdly , to talk of a statute once made null and void , intentionally is non-sence : for intention will not make law ; neither is it in church affairs , nor indeed , is it any where else , as it is in england , where there are definitive interpreters of law , and no law text , and where there is gospel and no definitive interpreters of the text. fourthly , because , the words in the said statute were not clear enough to remove doubts : then 't is clear that there were doubts . fifthly , because the doubts were so many , that the whole power of the kingdom , queen , council , church and state , durst not venture a tryal against a poor prisoner , ( notwithstanding that the business was order'd for a tryal by serjeants inn ) to see it fairly decided , whether the doubts could be removed or not , for fear such a weighty matter might miscarry by a county iury , as tho' it had not been in their power to make what jury they pleased . sixthly , bonner tho' a prisoner , enjoyed his revenue all this while by dint of law , that is , from the first of eliz. to the eighth of eliz. because horn in all this time could not prove himself a bishop : then the law did not look upon them as yet bishops . but , all the bishops were made in this time , and all that pretend to be now bishops are derived from them ; then how sacrilegious were those bishops that administred the sacraments and conferred orders , whilst so many doubts remained . whether they were truly ordained , or had any lawful jurisdiction or not . and of this there can be no question , nor can any man deny it . but now comes the parliament , the doubts are removed and horn gets his cause ; but how ? were both parties heard ? no ; nor durst the parliament hear what bonner could say for himself , nor what his lawyers could say for him neither , who were eminent men , as dr. heylin tells us , wrey , lovelace and ployden ; nor is it to be imagined that such eminent men would have undertaken so invidious a business to church and state , unless they had foreseen , that the cause was sure enough in their hands . it is a received maxim throughout the world , that qui judicat causa inaudita altera iniquus est iudex ; he that judges without hearing both parties is a wicked judge . but this parliament judged without hearing both parties : then this was iniquum parliamentum , iniquus iudex ; a wicked parliament , wicked judges : then what are the bishops , who are no otherwise bishops , than by verdict of such iniquity ? but this is not all . either those bishops of whose consecration there were so many doubts were in this parliament or not ? of right they could not be there until the doubts were removed : but either they were , or they were not ? if they were , can any thing be more pleasantly ridiculous , than to see the very men in question whether bishops or not , sit judging in parliament , and voting themselves to be in very deed , and also by authority hereof ( that is , of themselves ) declared and enacted to be , and shall be arch-bishops , bishops , &c. rightly made , consecrated , and ordered ; any thing to the contrary notwithstanding . this is far worse , than ask my brother if i am a thief . in fine , it is so ridiculous , that for soberness sake , we will suppose , that those pretended bishops did not sit in that parliament . then was the parliament but a pack of laymen ; and what have such to do with enacting or declaring of bishops ? bishops derive their ordination and the power that follows it , immediately from christ himself by succession from the apostles , ( as i said before ) and not from king nor queen ; it is a thing purely spiritual , and therefore cannot fall under the cognizance of any temporal power : so that the pretended bishops were no more bishops for this act of parliament , than they were before : for such a parliament neither had power to enact them bishops , nor to declare them such ? so that all the former doubts yet remain , and reach our present pretended bishops equally , and as much , as they did the former . but it is sacriledge for any pretended bishop to offer to administer the sacraments , and confer orders , when but one doubt remains , whether he be rightly in orders himself , or have authority to do it ; then greater is the sacriledge , when men offer to administer the sacraments and confer orders , when so many doubts remain whether they be in orders , or rightly authorized to do such acts. and now to conclude , how came dr. heylin so well acquainted with bishop bonner , that he should know which were his chief pleas , or what he would chiefly have insisted upon , had the weighty matter been suffered to have come to a hearing ? did he think the story of the naggs-head less known to bonner , than it was to neal and saunders ? or can any man in his wits believe that the whole power of the realm , queen , church , parliament , council and all , were in earnest afraid the weighty matter might miscarry by a county iury , either by partiality or insufficiency ? was it impossible for the queen and church to have found in the whole county of surry , twelve men according to their own hearts ? and could not they have instructed them as far as they pleased , that there could not be any fear of insufficiency ? and could not they have made them wholly their own , that there could be no fear of partiality , at leastwise towards bonner ? and if all other means had failed , could not they have brib'd and suborn'd them ? a more necessary policy then , when the weighty matter was at stake , than ever there was occasion for the like since . and does dr. heylin call the declining of this tryal sound advice ; certainly , when this question was started , bishops or not bishops ? and that the cause , debated amongst the iudges at serjeants inn , was finally put upon the issue , and the tryal of that issue ordered to be committed to a iury of the county of surry , it was necessary the world should be satisfied . but the queen and church did foresee , either that such things would be brought upon the stage , as would be very dishonourable to both , or that the pretended bishop horn would be cast . and then whither would her majesty have sent for bishops to consecrate her new elects ? the catholick bishops would not do it , and of that she had a tryal in kitchin . the lutherans would not do it ; for dr. heylin tells us , that they would not receive english fugitives in queen mary's time , and that they called such as dyed here then , the devils martyrs . so that the church of england must e'en have been an episcopal church without bishops . and that had not been more ridiculous than it was infamous , and scandalous to have declined the tryal . that my reader may the better remember , what has been said ; i thus in short recapitulate it . th● first beginning of reformation was founded on lust , it encreased by spoil , rapine and sacriledge ; it was at last new moulded , and formed into a church to legitimate the queen , when nothing else could do it ; it was made and establisht a church by a power , that had no more authority to make , and establish churches , than has the poor man with his parliament of women , which he crys about the streets , authority to make and establish religions . the pretended bishops of this pretended church are no bishops at all ; or at the best , they can but pretend to be bishops with many doubts on their backs , whether they are bishops or not ; and consequently must lye under the guilt of sacriledge for administring the sacraments , and conferring orders , those doubts still remaining unclear'd , nor possible now ever to be so . for no ensuing parliament can ever do it : nor if it could , were it ever possible for them to prove by what lawfully authorized successor's of the apostles , they were sent to preach the doctrine of the thirty nine articles . thus is the pretended church of england truly represented throughout all her causes , except her material ones ; and those i omitted , because she has none : being only made up , but of no's and negatives , of which hereafter . in the mean time i defy any man to shew me , that i have slandered her with the least untruth in the world . had not then the good late dutchess of york just reason to confess , that she could not think the holy ghost could ever be in such counsels ? finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a33074-e130 heylin in pref . pag. 131 pag. 275 pag. 294 reformation sure and stedfast, or, a seasonable sermon for the present times shevving the life and death of reformation : preached june 15, 1641. ford, thomas, 1598-1674. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a39935 of text r8197 in the english short title catalog (wing f1515). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 38 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 14 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a39935 wing f1515 estc r8197 12816988 ocm 12816988 94161 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a39935) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 94161) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 254:e167, no 14) reformation sure and stedfast, or, a seasonable sermon for the present times shevving the life and death of reformation : preached june 15, 1641. ford, thomas, 1598-1674. [4], 23 p. printed by j. d. for henry overton ..., london : 1641. "to the reader" signed: t. f. attributed to thomas ford. cf. nuc-pre 1956. reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng bible. -o.t. -zephaniah i, 1 -sermons. reformation -sermons. a39935 r8197 (wing f1515). civilwar no reformation sure and stedfast; or, a seasonable sermon for the present times. shevving the life and death of reformation. preached june 15. ford, thomas 1641 7058 2 0 0 0 0 0 3 b the rate of 3 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2003-12 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-12 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-12 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2004-12 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-01 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion reformation sure and stedfast ; or , a seasonable sermon for the present times . shevving the life and death of reformation . prov. 15. 23. a word spoken in due season how good it is . preached june 15. 1641. published by order from a committee of the honourable house of commons . london , printed by j. d. for henry overton , and are to be sold at his shop at the entrance into popes-head alley out of lumbard street . 1641. to the reader . god hath layd the foundation among us long agoe , and god be thanked we have held it hitherto , though with much adoe , and some hazard , for pioners both within us and without us have beene digging at it , but could never undermine it , to blow it up ( for thereby wee have beene comely though blacke ) and therefore they have gone another way to worke , and built upon it : to wit ; wood , hay , stubble , so that though the power of godlinesse hath preserved us , yet this combustible matter hath kindled such fires amongst us , as have almost ruined , us . for it 's dangerous to separate what god hath joyned together , though power may give as a subsistence , yet never a bene esse without purity , to which wee now hope wee draw neere by the marriage of these two together amongst us , but then they must have these properties of marriage , they must not only joyne hands but hearts , and that for ever for cordiall unanimity , and constant perpetuity , make up such a reformation , as only will make us . but i will not prevent the sermon by preaching it in the epistle , only borrow so much , as may shew how needfull it is for ministers , to ioyne with magistrates , and to imploy the word , as they the sword this way , that so it may not bee done by halves , but throughly , and that not only in action , but affection , for god sayes , give me thy heart , which is the summe , and substance of this sermon , and that it may bee the practice of us all , so prayes . thine in the lord , t. f. reformation sure and stedfast , or a seasonable sermon for the present times , &c. zephaniah 1. 1. the word of the lord which came unto zephaniah the sonne of cushi , the sonne of gedaliah , the sonne of amariah , the sonne of hizkiah , in the dayes of iosiah the sonne of amon king of judah . three things there are exprest in the text ; and a fourth implyed . first , the authority of the prophet . secondly , the prophets qualitie . thirdly , the time of his prophecy ; and fourthly , the argument , or substance of it ; which is the thing implyed in the prophets text , and fully opened in his sermons . 1. the authority : the word of the lord : and therefore you are to take notice , i am not now opening to you mens opinions , or reading a lecture to you out of a philosopher , or an historian , which you may like where you will , and leave where you list , heare , or beleeve ab libitum ; but the word of the lord , who must be beleeved , when he speakes most above our apprehensions , or crossest to our present wills , and affections . 2. the quality of the prophet ; which came unto zephaniah the sonne of cushie , &c. his father and grandfather , and great grandfather and great great grandfather are named : whence it appeares , that zephaniah was a man of an honourable house , because his ancestors are mentioned to the fourth generation * and hence wee see , that almighty god hath made use of men of all degrees , to bee ministers of his word . isaiah came of the bloud royall ; jeremiah , of the stocke of aaron ; daniel and zephaniah , of honourable families . amos , a heardman ; elisha , a husbandman ; and other prophets , as malachi , obadiah , haggai , and habakkuk , whose naked names wee have without their pedegrees . and thus we see , that as the lord doth send his word to all sorts of men , so he sends it by all sorts of men . and hereby the most true god does the more cleare his word from jelousie , and suspition . here also wee see , it is calling honourable enough , for men that are most honourable by birth , to bee ministers of gods word . as zephaniah a noble man by birth , was not undervalued , but advanced by his calling to be the lords minister . a ministers calling is honour enough to him without other accumulations . 3. the time of his prophesying : in the dayes of josiah king of judah : and therefore one of the last prophets before the captivity , and a contemporarie with jeremiah . 4. for the substance , and subject of his prophecy , we shall find ; it is composed of very reproving , and very threatning sermons : partly indeed against some others , but principally against judah . i , but what should such a prophet , a reproving prophet , a threatning prophet doe in josiah's time , a time of great reformation , and a very reforming prince ? i answer , that though josiah himselfe had a right spirit in way of reformation , yet the spirits of the greatest part of the nobles of judah , and also of the commons , inclined to their old superstitions in worship , and corruptions in government . the idolatrous wayes of their former corrupt princes , were still in their hearts ; and however the king was sound , yet the greatest part of the subjects , both rulers , and people , were rotten-hearted towards josiah's reformation . which appeares both by some expresse places of scripture , and by good consequence from other . in the 2 king. 22. 17. and chro. 34. 25. it was absolutely charged , upon the inhabitants of judah , that they burnt incense to other gods ; which charge was in josiah's time : so that notwithstanding the religious reformation , hee had endeavoured amongst them , yet they had their old haunts of superstion , and therefore then censured , as well as charged . if it be put to case , and objected , that this charge might have relation to iudah's idolatrie , in manasse's time , as might seeme from that passage in 2 king. 23. 26. let this question be put upon this objection : why should such a difference be made , in that charge , and censure , betwixt josiah , and his people , saving that he was sound , and they still corrupt ? i confesse it hath reference to manasse's time ; yet not only thither : for its plaine to josiah's also . and this will be without scruple , upon the view of some passages in the prophet , jer. 3. 6. and 10. the lord also said unto me , saith jeremiah , in the dayes of josiah the king . judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart , but feignedly , or in falshood , saith the lord . though the king , and happily some few of his nobles , and people were very cordiall in reformation , yet the major part both of nobles and commons , had reformed faces , but not reformed hearts . again , by consequence it is cleare . for wheras josiah , though young , was upright-hearted himselfe , and likewise towards the reformation of his kingdome ; why yet it seemes , it was the twelfth yeare of his raigne , before he could get the kingdome in any readinesse to a reformation . so it is recorded in 2 chro. 34. 3. that in the twelfth yeare of his raigne , he began to purge iudah and ierusalem from the high places , and the groves , &c. againe , after he set upon reformation , wee find it was six yeares , before he had purged the land , and the temple , which was but a part of his reformation intended : for the repaires of the temple were still behind , vers. 8. and what should be the reason , that he should be twelve yeares before hee began to reforme , being so pure a prince , and six yeares in one part of reformation , the casting out of corruptions ? but because he found it a mighty difficult matter , to new mold the people from old wayes , and to take the generality of them off from their wonted superstitious customes . it is observable againe , that when the people were brought to an outward conformity , to the reformation , yet their hearts still hankered another way , and so much as they durst , for the lawes , the reformation had established , they declared their idolatrous spirits : as in that 3. jer. 10. judah hath not turned to mee with her whole heart , but feignedly . and we are moreover to marke , that after their outward conformitie to reformation , came the threatning of their captivity . compare the 8. and 25. verse , of the 34. chap. 2 chro. there is still another thing more notable for the case in hand , which is this ; when upon the lords threatning judah , for the superstitious bent , and byas of their spirits still ; josiah to the end he might make them as sure as he could for god gathers them together , to enter into a sure covenant with the lord , to serve him only , and to worship him truly ; it is observable that the king was forced , to force them to stand to the covenant , that he himselfe had entred into . verses 32. 33. they did not willingly , and freely enter into the covenant with the king , but it 's said , josiah caused , and made all that were present , or that were found in jerusalem , and benjamin to stand to it . againe , neither did they keepe this covenant any longer then josiah's life , as the last words of the chapter , and the peoples practice in the beginning of the next king doe manifest . now if the commendations of the passeover in josiah's life , and the great lamentation of the people at josiah's death , should bee an argument to any for the integritie of iudah in iosiah's time ; they must needs in serious , and seconded thoughts , apprehend the carriage of the people in the generality , but a ceremony , and no substantiall point of their soundnesse . therefore upon all this that hath beene said , i say in answer to the question ; that there was a necessitie of this sharpe , and threatning prophecy , even in iosiah's time , though a time of reformation : howbeit , not in respect of prince , yet of people for the major part . and then this is the first doctrine . that though the prince , and some rulers of a nation , be strict reformers in religion , yet if the people generally continue corrupt , the nation is still in much danger . as we may take notice of it in gods angry words against iudah , in iosiah's time , the purest of reformers before the captivity ; so also , as clearly in the pure reformations after the captivity , by the confessions , of the reformers themselves : witnesse ezra , and nehemiah their solemne fasts , to prevent sad things , which they feared might befall their nation , through the peoples corruption , ezra 9. and nehem. 9. now when i say , when the people are corrupt in religion , i meane not their open profession , or confessed practice of superstitions , and crosse-wayes , to the purity of religion : but even then , when the people have out-sides to reformation , yet still hearts and insides to corruption . for this was the case of the iewes in iosiah's time . as the purest elements now are so impure as subject to change in part into contrary elements ; such was the temper of these jewes , that as they went to zoar , their faces were towards sodom . and the danger of such a nation , that hath such a people appeares in this ; because such a people , though they may bee conformers , to godly reformation for the present , yet for present it 's against their wills to be for god , and so soone as ever they have opportunity , they will be for baal . just as your men that stay at shore till wind serve , they keepe upon the land , because they cannot get upon the sea ; but so soone as the winds turne to their opportunity , fare well land . thus we may conceive it was in that happy reformation of king edw. 6. though unhappy in respect of his surviving subjects . who in reason would have thought , that , that reformation should have had such a metamorphosis , and that so suddenly ; yet the issue gave in evidence that the generality were but meere formalists in that reformation , and did but waite for a wind , to carry them to rome againe . and as this hath beene the issue of the people , so vice versa ; sometimes with the prince : as in joash king of judah , a good king not from inward principles , but from outward motives ; hee made true religion the fashion whilst jehojada lived : for all the dayes of jehojada it 's said , he walked in the godly paths of his godly predecessors , and maintained the reformation , made after athalia deposed , and hee crowned , 2 king. 11. but so soone as jehojada was in his grave , the princes of judah came , and made obeisance to the king , and with flattering speeches motioned to the king , the renewing of baalitish worship , and he hearkened unto them , 2 chro. 24. 17. to make application of the point for our owne particular use . and hence wee gather that there is as great necessitie to pray , and endevour , that the hearts of the people of the land , may bee prepared for reformation , as that the lord would prepare reformers : that prince , and peoples spirits , may move in the same orbe in this point , and that the people may not be carryed on in reformation , as the sunne , and starres are by the primum mobile , have a violent motion from it , and another naturall motion of their owne , quite contrary . for certainly though the people of the land move after the motion of superiour orbes , king , and rulers that doe reforme , yet keepe another crosse inclination , and motion of their owne , surely , i say , our hopes at most , can be but for an age , even the lives of reformers ; and so soone as a josiah is gone , so will his reformation too . it 's true , for the age of reformers , the scriptures warrant us , truth and peace in their dayes ; nay , and according to scripture evidence , an externall complying of the people with reformation , is a supersedeas to the land from nationall iudgements . we find in josiah a reformer , he must goe to his grave in peace , and his people must bee secure till then too . and so there must be peace and truth , all hezekiah's raigne , being a reformer of religion , though we find many heavy prophesies against judah , even in hezekiah's time , as wee see in the prophets , isaiah , hosea , and micah . and so jehoshaphat , a maintainer of his fathers reformation , and something a mender of it , though indeed once he was affrighted with a great armie , yet saith the scripture ; the realme of iehoshaphat was quiet , and god gave him , and his people rest in his raigne , 2 chro. 20. but then here is usually the non ultra of hopes , of happinesse , when the peoples hearts move not in the same orbe after the princes in reforming . the scripture is cleare in president for it : that when in time of reformation , the peoples spirits are not prepared for puritie in divine worship , as the governours are ( thus the case was with iehoshaphats people , the hearts of the people were not prepared , to the taking away of the high-places , 2 chro. 20. 33. ) then the land hath beene secured , and happie but that age . for wee find that when iehoshaphat slept with his fathers , even that good prince , whose peoples hearts were not prepared , as his , for perfect reformation , the next king , was a king after the corrupt peoples owne hearts : a man that walked in the wayes of the kings of israel , and house of ahab , 2 chro. 21. 6. and what became of the kingdome then , that was so secure and quiet , whilst iehoshaphat lived ? why , we find there , that first the edomites , they revolt from the dominion of iudah , and set up a king of their owne ; and libna also revolted from the government of iudah . and the reason of this change in the state , is given in the tenth verse of the chapter : because iehoram had forsaken the lord god of his fathers , iehoshaphat and asa , both reformers of church and state . it 's true , we find in scripture , that asa's reformation continued not only his , but his successours time ; but then wee find with all in scripture , that there is no such thing laid to the peoples charge , as not being prepared for his reformation . and this i conceive to bee a reason of the succession of queene elizabeths reformation through king iames his raigne , and our gracious king charles ; namely , besides the integritie of their royall spirits , the hearts of the people were prepared for that reformation of religion . which appeares to be so , in this , that no baalam's ; though there have beene many , could yet curse england so farre , as to adulterate a considerable part , either of nobles , or commons , from the former reformation ; though from perfection in reformation , we have beene often stopped . moreover , it 's beyond all this observable concerning hezekiahs reformation ; that though he was very pure in it , and his peoples hearts prepared for it , 2 chro. 29. 36. the people were much taken with hezekiah's reformation at first , and forwarded it with all expedition ; for the worke was done suddenly , saith the scripture . why yet this lasted but hezekiah's life ; truth , and peace only in his dayes : for after he was gathered to his fathers , religion was more corrupted then ever by manasses his sonne , and the kingdome never in greater straits , and exigents . now what should be the reason of this ? that he so pure a reformer , and his peoples hearts so prepared for reformation , yet the kingdome happy herein , but for his time . i answer , that we shall find in the search of scripture in this case ; that for all this forwardnesse of the people in hezekiah's reformation , yet alas , they were but for a spurt , their best at first , their courage soone cooled this way , and they quickly weary of the life of religion . for this complaint the lord made of judah , in the prophet hosea : who prophesied in hezekiah's time against judah , hos. 6. 4. o judah , what shall i doe unto thee ? for your goodnesse is as the morning cloud , and as the early dew it goeth away . and if haply this was spoken to judah in another kings time , and not hezekiah's , ( for hosea prophesied in foure kings raignes of judah , uzziah , jothan , ahaz , and hezekiah ) yet the very last thing in the prophesie against judah , must in all reason bee in hezekiah's time , chap. 12. 2. i have a controversie also with iudah , and will punish jacob according to his wayes . nay , and that which god spake in iudah's commendation compared with ephraim , chap. 11. 12. intimates , as it were , that the lord was jealous of iudah's declining , and returning to idols ; ephraim compasseth mee about with lyes ; but iudah yet ruleth with god . yet , as if he did expect that they would fall off at last . it 's manifest againe by the prophet micah , who prophesied in hezekiah's dayes , that even then there was a defection in the people , the magistrates become corrupt , and the ministrie too , chap. 3. 9. and chap. last , and beginning of it . besides this , it 's more then probable that corruptions crept into iudah , even in hezekiah's dayes ; because we find there was such a corrupt minister of state nigh to the king , and in the kings house , shebna by name , both treasurer , and also over the kings house , isa. 22. 15. a man of a mighty proud spirit for himselfe , as is seene in the 16. verse , and a mighty dangerous man to the state of iudah , as appeares in his notable end , in the 17. 18. verse , &c. to put on the use againe in conclusion of these premisses . we see and cannot see ; that besides the stirring up of the spirit of iehoshaphat , or hezekiah , or josiah , or zerubbabel , or nehemiah , or cirus , i say , besides the stirring up of the spirits of rulers to reforme , there are these two things to be looked unto , if any continued comfort be expected in reformation . first , that the hearts of the people be prepared for reformation . secondly , that the hearts of the people be settled , when they are prepared . first that the hearts of the people be prepared for reformation : that is , that their opinions , and affections may bee quite taken off , of all wry wayes in gods worship , and byased with right rules , and principles in religion . and hence wee see the necessitie of the ministers industry , as well as the magistrates , in reforming times . for though it bee the power of the sword which must conforme the outside , yet it is the power of the word , which must reforme the inside of the people . though the magistrate must cast all externall performances , yet the ministery properly casts the heart , and inclinations into a reforming temper . and therefore brethren now king , and ministers of state are discharging their parts in commanding , if ministers of the church doe not discharge theirs in informing , and exhorting ; surely , as it was said of the priests to their disparagement in hezekiah's reformation , 2 chro. 29. the levites were more upright in heart to sanctifie themselves than the priests ; so will it doubtlesse bee charged on the ministery in ours ; that the magistrates were more upright in heart to performe their parts in reformation , than the ministers theirs . we see also what here is for private men to worke upon in their prayers , viz. the hearts of the people of the land , as well as the heart of the prince of the land in the day of refining . though the head be never so well , and in temper , yet if there be an ill heart , or a corrupt liver , or ulcerated members in the body , a mans life is still in hazard : so that if christians do not levell as well in their prayers , and humblings , to the sincerity of the subjects , as the puritie of prince , as well to the preparation of the people , as the reformation of rulers ; the kingdome is not yet out of danger . for however it be a happinesse to a kingdome , when rulers are willing to reforme , as to iudah in iehoshaphat . yet if the people be not prepared for reformation , marke , and it goes on with much difficulty , and every motion of it pinches much . as , this being the case of iosiah six years could scarcely get out rubbish from church and state , that they might come to repaires . for it was the twelfth yeare before hee could pull downe baal , and the eighteenth before he could build for god . secondly , there must be care had by the magistrate in their sphere , and the ministery in theirs , and all the people of god in theirs too , to get the hearts of the people setled , in the rules of reformation : that they bee not wavering , and of a changeable spirit , except governours change any forgot , or unseene errors : that their goodnesse may not bee as iudah's , as the morning cloud , and early dew which passeth away ; that they may not bee for antichrist againe , when an opportunity tempts them ; but religious when iehojada is dead , and righteous when iosiah is fallen asleepe . in a word , that they may be implanted into a reformation , as the medes and persians were into their law , which altered not . and if this bee not , then this may be ; nay , this will be the mischiefe , and inconvenience , viz. though the worke of reformation goe on apace for a time , as it is said of hezekiah , he blessed god , that the hearts of the people were so prepared , that the worke was done with speed . i say , though the worke may goe on with speed for a time , yet in time there may come a pause , and long demurre : and this was their case in the building of the temple , upon the weakning of the hands of the people of iudah and benjamin , ezr 4. the people were extraordinary busie , and zealous at the foundation of the temple , but shortly after , by some wiles , and plots of ante-reformers , their hands were weakned , their zeale abated , and the worke of building the temple , received intermission many yeares , ezr. 4 compare the fourth verse with the twenty fourth . thus you have seene cleared , that when the magistrates of a land are serious in separating betwixt the pretious , and the vile , if the people of the land , i meane the considerable part of them be peccant ; the land is still in danger , especially for future . for if the hearts of the people be not prepared for reformation , then it comes on with much difficulty : if prepared , and not settled , there may come in dangerous delayes , and besides little hopes to last long . as the israelites at first comming out of egypt , in one quarter of a yeare they got as farre as to the wildernesse of zinai , the third part of their way from egypt to canaan , and count all their compasses in their journey : they staied not there much above the yeare compleat , to take their lawes along with them , and yet after they removed from mount sinai , they were nine and thirtie yeares before any of them got to canaan . whereas had their progresse beene like their beginning , they might have beene at the land of promise within fix moneths more . you conceive our owne case without particular application ; and you cannot but conceive how much it concernes us all to see to it , to our power , that the hearts of all be not only prepared to reforme , but settled in their preparations . and sure it lyes hard upon gods people ( o that they would heartily take notice of it ) not to ebbe a jot in the course of prayer , and humiliation , or in the way of personall reformation , or exercise of faith , and activenesse of spirit every way , which is proper for the times , and their conditions in them . so much for this first doctrine from the argument of the prophesie . secondly , the prophesie is also to threaten them , that keepe corrupt , and rotten hearts , in times of reformation . and hence this second doctrine . that anti-reformers are sure of ruine . there are sure judgements kept for them , that keepe corrupt minds under times of reformation . for why iosiah's people should be punished for this temper , and any now escape , i can find no reason ; so that to such , ruine will come , though haply , it may be a whole , or a peece of an age before : as it was with the multitude of the jewes in iosiah's dayes , his dayes they were respited , but after ruined . and if in this case the generality of the people bee thus tainted , the whole nation is at stake , if but an inconsiderable part almighty god can fift out the accursed thing , and i beleeve will cull out achans , and save israel . my brethren , when in times of reformation and puritie , men will not leave their vanitie and superstitions , what the word cannot take away , the sword of the magistrate must , or gods will . men of spirits crossing reformation , are our moabites , and ammonites : we shall observe that the moabites , and ammonites in israels time , were by gods law , the most accursedst men , of all men ; the very edomites and egyptians , were not so hatefull a people as they , for the children of an edomite , or an egyptian , might enter into the congregation of the lord in the third generation , but the moabite , and the ammonite might not come into the congregation of the lord , to the tenth generation , no not for ever . see deut. 23. 3. and 8. now what was the nature and disposition of the ammonite and moabite , that they above others must bee thus accursed ? why , because they hindered israels passage to canaan ; thus will it be with the men who hinder the church of god from the enjoyment of her promises of puritie and peace , they are , or god will make them the hatefull'st of men . and o that some in these times , would take this into thought , who had rather in their practice in religion bee conformable to rome in the popes time , then reduced to rome in saint pauls time , and choose to imitate her in her corruptions , rather then in her puritie . rome is sure to be ruinated , if the generalitie o● pure divines in all ages since antichrist knowne to be there , doe not faile us ; nay , and the scriptures themselves , which wee are sure will not . and if shee be sure , as sure are all they that come not out from her , else what meanes that place of scripture , rev. 18. 4. come out of her my people , that yee bee not partakers of her sinnes , and that yee receive not of her plagues . againe , thirdly the argument of the prophesie is to shew to all ages , what necessitie there is , of fidelity , and throughnesse in undertaking the reformation of states , and churches , for otherwise they are still indanger . though it be no error to take away some corruptions , yet it is an error not to take away all . what hath beene the spring of the miseries of some of christs churches ( as in germany ) since they were reformed , but their partiall reformations . gualther , and other judicious germane divines were in this note whilst they lived . there is no perfect peace in a state , without full puritie of the church . the times of laying downe weapons , of beating swords into plow-shares , and speares into pruning hookes , and of learning warre no more , and of every mans sitting under his vine , and under his figge-tree without feare , micah 4. 3. 4. are the purest times of the gospell . the times when the gentiles shall be earnestly calling upon the jewes , that they may walke together in the glorious light of the gospell compare that of micah with 2 isa. 4. and againe , churches are very subject to relapses , when not throughly healed , and relapses are dangerous ; the last error is worse then the first . new idolaters after a reformation , are more dangerous then former ; consider the idolatrous times of judah after reformations , and it is plaine , idolaters were more dangerous after hezekiah's reformation then before , witnesse manasses time , and still more dangerous after josiah's reformation then before , witnesse the captivity . and it is not in vaine to looke upon the next idolaters after king edw. reformation . and if wee be not blind , we may see in our owne dayes , that popish spirits are more deepe , and desperate then ever yet . but i am not preaching to reformers , therefore to you my auditors i commend , and in the name of god may command , these three things carefully to bee looked unto by you , even in these times wherein the lord doth dispose the spirits of prince and governours to a reformation . first , to your utmost abilitie , the preparation of the peoples hearts . for jehoshaphat tooke not away the high places , because the people as yet had not prepared their hearts to seeke the lord god of their fathers , 2 chro. 20. 33. and your primest way for this is powerfull prayer . secondly , the strengthening of your owne , and their hands , whose hearts are prepared ; the holding up , and out of your , and their courage , and zeale for reformation . for the weakening of the hands of the people of judah , was a lon● stop to the perfecting of the temple , ezr. 4. 4. and lastly , and the surest way for this is to enter into a sure covenant , the way is lead for us . thirdly , it must be your speciall care , that you neither idolize the instruments of reformation , nor under-value them , or bring up an ill report of them . for the first branch ; wee our selves know , the churches of germany have had a sore checke from god , for too much confidence in man * . when , whilst wee lay our pipes directly upon the fountaine for derivation , we are sure to have our pipes full , if once we set the cisterne in the springs place , we are sure to find emptie vessels . this may bee an error ; but that which certainly is the error , is an undervaluing of the instruments of reformation . it is likely there are many belials that mutter against reformers now , as sheba did of david , a reformer of israel , 2 sam. 20. wee have no part in david , neither have wee inheritance in the sonne of jesse , every man to his tents , o israel . some such base spirits no question wee have amongst us , whose hearts rise against reformers of church and state , and had rather every man , should walke by will in both , then by rule in either . we shall observe it usually in reformations in scripture , the devill hath stirred up anti-reformers , whose designes have bin to contrive the disgrace , and basest esteeme of the instruments of reformation . thus korah and his company plotted amongst the people , to cast an aspersion upon moses and aaron , that they tooke too much upon them , num. 16. in zerubbabels reformation rehum the chancellour , and shimshai the scribe , insinuated to the people ; that zerubbabel and jeshua in their reformation , and restoring the temple , wronged the king , and countrey , and signified as much to the king also by politique , but lying letters , ezra 4. and in nehemiah's reformation sanballet , and tobia , enemies of the same spirit . when our saviour was in reforming the state of the church in his time , and preached against the errors , and superstitions of the jewes , and their church , then the high priests and scribes et cetera , insinuated to the people , that christ was but a wine-bibbet , a companion of publicans , and though he did strange things , yet the cast out divels , by beelzebub prince of divels . beloved , as the case is with us , your cure must be great against carnall reason . for carnall reason might have disputed against josiah's reformation , he was but a child , and medled also with the very rooting out of things , that his godly ancestours left standing , both in state and church . so carnall reason might have objected more in hezekiah's reformation ; that he did not only pull downe the high places , set up by men , but the brazen serpent , formerly apponted by god . and thus it may bee some men , if they conferre with carnall reason , may cavill at our present reformers , as that they make themselves wiser then their fathers , and remove things out of church , and state , which their predecessors found no fault with . and had they beene men of such spirits as these , so might the people have stumbled at asa's taking away some things in his latter reformation , which he left in being in his former fifteene yeares before , 2 chro. 15. my brethren , i conclude with this paralell , in this point , and i beseech you take it to heart . as those israelites , that brought up an ill report of the land of canaan , whither israel was going , were not only barr'd from comming thither , but dyed of the plague in the wildernesse , numb. 14. so let those cavellors against the canaan , whither this church of christ is going , expect assuredly , that they shall never enjoy the sweetnesse of it . and for a farewell word ; if any feare , lest the enemy should hope , to strengthen themselves , by seeing here , where our strength lyes . i must tell them , they feare where no feare is . for the mysteries of the kingdome of heaven , made knowne to us , are made parables to them . and be confident in it ; that god does never discover duty to us , to ensnare us , but to keepe us out of snares that are laid for us . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a39935e-240 * besides , the names of his ancestours tell him to be honourable . quest . answ. doct. 1. reas. vse . note . doct. 2. * i have heard and read , that the renowned king of sweden item'd so much unto them before his death . a sermon of reformation preached at the church of the savoy, last fast day, july 27, 1643 / by thomas fuller ... fuller, thomas, 1608-1661. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a40686 of text r21908 in the english short title catalog (wing f2461). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 38 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 12 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a40686 wing f2461 estc r21908 12569674 ocm 12569674 63411 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a40686) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 63411) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 317:1) a sermon of reformation preached at the church of the savoy, last fast day, july 27, 1643 / by thomas fuller ... fuller, thomas, 1608-1661. 24 p. [s.n.], london : 1643. reproduction of original in yale university library. eng reformation -england -sermons. fast-day sermons. sermons, english. a40686 r21908 (wing f2461). civilwar no a sermon of reformation. preached at the church of the savoy, last fast day, july 27, 1643. by thomas fuller b.d. and minister there. fuller, thomas 1643 6928 0 10 0 0 0 0 14 c the rate of 14 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2002-08 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2002-09 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2002-10 john latta sampled and proofread 2002-10 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2002-12 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a sermon of reformation . preached at the church of the savoy , last fast day , july 27 , 1643. by thomas fuller b. d. and minister there . london , printed in the yeare of our lord . 1643. a sermon of reformation . heb. 9.10 . vntill the time of reformation . those who live beyond the polar circles , are called periscii , because they have shadows round aboue them . in a more mysticall meaning the jewes before christ may be so called , living in constant umbrages of types and ceremonies which were taken away when the sunne of righteousnesse did arise . their sacrificing of lambes and rammes , and kids and goats , and calves , and kine , and turtle-doves , with their observing of meates and drinkes , and dayes , whereas the apostle saith , colos. 2.17 . a shadow of things to come , but the body is of christ . yea , in some sense i may safely say , that the very sanctum and sanctum sanctorum , was still but the outward atrium , as containing therein such types , as related to a higher and holier truth : to instance only in the holy of holies , herein were seven sacred utensils , all full fraught with heavenly mysteries . first , the golden censor , signifying our prayers mingled with christs merits ( woefull for us if he did not give better incense then we bring ) which he offers up for us to his father . secondly , the arke of the covenant overlaid round about with gold ; whilest shittim wood was in the middest thereof , to typifie christs humanity decked and adorned with his godhead . thirdly , the pot of manna , looking backwards in memoriall of the miraculous meat of the israelites in the wildernesse : and forwards to set forth angels food in heaven , which is neither to eat nor to drinke , but to doe gods will , and to see gods glory . fourthly , aarons rod which budded , and besides the history contained therein , alluded to christs resurrection , that branch of iesse cut downe and cast out amongst the dead : which yet afterwards did revive , flourish , and fructifie . fifthly , the tables of the covenant , wherein the commandements were written by gods finger , to intimate , that only an infinite power can effectually print gods lawes in our hard and obdurate hearts . sixthly , the golden cherubims overshadowing the mercy-seat with their wings , and looking towards it ; to shew , that the mystery of gods mercy is to be covered from the curiosity of prophane eyes , whilest the pious may with comfort behold it . seventhly , and lastly , the mercy-seat it selfe ; the embleme of that mercy-seat in heaven , to which poore penitents being cast at the barre of gods justice have a free and open appeale . all these were of gold and pure gold , and yet saint paul ( gal. 4.9 . ) calleth all legall ceremonies beggarly elements , in comparison of christ the truth , in whom these did determine and expire : as the rude lines of black-lead wherwith the picture is first drawne , vanish away when the curious limner layeth on the lively colours ; so that all these outward ordinances had an end at the comming of christ , being only to last , vntill the time of reformation . the text is so short , it needs not to be divided , only the word reformation must bee expounded ; a word long in pronouncing and longer in performing , as generally signifying the bettering , and amending of what is amisse ; in greeke {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , a through rectifying . however , sometimes the word reformation is not opposed to things bad in their owne nature , but to things that are lesse perfect , and may be more perfected , as in the text . for the ceremoniall law of the jewes was compleat in its kinde , as given of god , and every thing made by him , must be like him that made it very good . yet comparatively that law was imperfect , and needed a reformation , which was performed at christs comming . besides , though the ceremoniall law was good in it selfe , yet it was bad as it was abused by the ignorant jewes . for though the knowing patriarks looked through , and beyond the types to the messias himselfe : yet the dull people mistaking the shell for the kernell , and the casket for the jewell ; lodged their soules where they should only have bayted , and did dote on the shadowes as on the substance it selfe ; in which respect the peoples judgements , as well as those ceremonies , needed a reformation . the maine point we shall insist on , is this ; that christians living under the gospel , live in a time of reformation , which will appeare in severall particulars : for besides ceremonies removed according to the principall intent of the text ; manners are now reformed and doctrine refined : poligamy connived at in the patriarks , now generally condemned , the bill of divorce cancelled by christianity , which was permitted to the jewes , not because that was good , but because they were bad , and by this tolleration were kept from being worse . the second table abused by the restrictive comments of the pharisees , confining those lawes ( which were made to confine them ) onely to the outward act , are now according to our saviour interpretation extended to their true demention . the mistery of the trinity clouded in the old testament , is cleered in the new . the doctrine of gods righteousnesse by faith , of the merrit of christ , of the spirit of adoption , of the resurrection of the body , darkly delivered under the law are manifested in the gospel , with many other heavenly revelations . let us be hartily thankfull to god , who gave us to be borne since the comming of christ in the time of reformation . our twi-light is cleerer then the jewish noon-day : the men of china use to brag , that they ( because of their ingenious civility ) have two eyes , the europaeans one , and that all the world besides are starke blinde ; more truely it may be said that the christans had two eyes , the law and gospell ; the jewes but one , the law alone , and all people and pagans besides sit in darknesse and the shadow of death . the jewes indeed saw christ presented in a land-scept , and beheld him through the perspective of faith , seeing the promises a farre off . but at this day a dwarfe-christian is an overmatch for a gyant jew in knowledge , as appeareth by our saviours riddle , mat. 11.11 . among them that are borne of women there hath not risen a greater then john the baptist : notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdome of heaven , is greater then he . which riddle is thus untyed : iohn baptist was the greatest amongst the children of women , because other prophets foresaw christ , he saw him ; others spake of christ , he spake to him , and had the high honour to baptize him with water , by whose spirit he himselfe was baptized : yet was he the least in the kingdome of heaven ( which properly began after cerists ascention ) because though perchance acquainted with the generals thereof , the particulars of the time , place , meanes and manner , were as much conceal'd from him , as cleerly revealed unto us . he never knew that iudas should betray christ ; caiphas accuse him , peter deny him , pilate condeme him , souldiers crucifie him , nicodemus embalme him , ioseph bury him . these , and many more circumstances of our saviours passion , resurrection and ascention , now histories to our children , were misteries to iohn baptist ; who , though christs harbinger to prepare his way , yet did not live to see his master to possesse what he had provided for him : wherefore if alexander the emperour did count himselfe much indebted to the gods , that he was borne a grecian , and not a barbarian , how thankfull ought we to be to god , who gave us to be borne neither jewes , nor pagans , but christians , since the time of reformation . but this indeed were true , if all things in the church continued at this time in the same condition of primative purity , whereto christ reform'd it . but long since , that falling away , foretold by the apostle , is come to passe , and that man of sinne hath played his part in the church , therein deforming manners with vice , doctrine with heresie , discipline with superstition . as for any reformation which since hath happened in england , it hath been but partiall and imperfect . king henry the eight brake the popes necke , but bruised not the least finger of popery ; rejecting his supremacy , but retaining his superstition in the six articles . the reformation under edward the sixth , was like the reformer , little better then a childe , and he must needs be a weake defender of the faith , who needed a lord protector for himselfe : as nurses to woe their children to part from knives , doe suffer them to play with rattles ; so the state then permitted the people ( infants in piety ) to please themselves with some frivious points of popery , on condition they would forsake the dangerous opinions thereof . as for queene elizabeth , her character is given in that plaine , but true expression , that she swept the church of england and left all the dust behind the doore . her successors have gone in the same path , and the same pace with little alteration , and lesse addition in matters of moment , save that besides some old errours unamended ; many innovations have broken in upon us , which might be instanced in , were it as safe as it is easie to reckon them up . we therefore desire and expect a through reformation , to see christ mounted on his throne , with his scepter in his hand , in the purity of his ordinances , and we shall grieve and groane untill such a reformation . this objection containes many parts , and must be taken asunder : some things therein are freely to be granted , and others flatly to be denied , and others warily to be qualified . we freely confesse the deformation by popery , as also , that the reforming was by henry the eight and edward the sixth ( good prince , of whom i had said , that he dyed too soone , but because he dyed when god would have him ) were but partiall and imperfect . withall , we flatly deny that queene elizabeth left the dust behinde the doore , which she cast out on the dunghill ; whence this uncivill expression was raked up . the doctrine by her established , and by her successors maintained in the 39. articles , if declared , explained and asserted from false glosses , have all gold , no dust or drosse in them . againe , we freely confesse that there may be some faults in our church in matters of practice and ceremonies , and no wonder if there be , it would be a miracle if there were not : besides , there be some innovations , rather in the church then of the church , as not chargeable on the publique account , but on private mens scores , who are old enough , let them answer for themselves . religion in england , is like the cloathes of the isralites , deuteronomie 29.5 . which for many yeeres together waxed not old . alas , in some places it is thread-bare , may it have a new nappe ; in more it is spotted , may it be well scowred ; and in all places rent asunder , may it be well mended . a through reformation , we , and all good men doe desire with as strong affections , though perhaps not with so loud a noise , as any whatsoever . the highest clamour doth not alwayes argue the greatest earnestnesse . but with this qualification , that by through reformation , we meane such a one , whereof we are capable , pro statu viatorum , made with all due and christian moderation : that arrow is well drawne , that is drawne to the head , but it may over-drawne cleane through the bow , and so doe no good . there is in like manner a possibility of out-doing , even in the point of reforming : and therefore how a true through reformation may be made , and managed long to continue , by gods assistance and your patience ; i will take in hand to give the true characters of such who are to be true and proper reformers . first , they must have a lawfull calling thereunto : what better deede then to make brothers friends , and to be an equall umpire betwixt them ? yet christ himselfe declin'd the imployment , as out of his vocation , luke 12.14 . who made me a iudge or devider over you . some good duties lye in common to all good men . whosoever is called a christian hath a just calling to performe them : 't is so farre from being a sinne for any to doe them , that it is a sinne for any to leave them undone . but there be other duties , which god hath impaled in , for some particular persons , so that it is a ryot or trespasse at least for any other to force their entrance into them : amongst these actions , reformation of churches is a chief , as of highest honour , and greatest concernment . now , the supreme power alone , hath a lawfull calling to reforme a church in those respective places , wherein it is supreme ; where this supreme power is seated , the statists of the severall places may judge , the divine goeth no farther , but to maintaine that where the supreme power is , there alone is the power of reformation ; as it plainely appeares by the kings of iudah in their kingdome . two sorts of idolatry , the jewes therein were guilty of : the one grosse , the other refined . grosse idolatry against the first commandement , in worshipping a false god , as baal , and the like . refined idolatry , against the second commandement , in worshipping the true god after false and forbidden manner , 2. chronicles 33.17 . neverthelesse the people did sacrifice still in the high places , yet unto the lord their god onely . grosse idolatry found many reformers , asa , ioash , amaziah , vzziah , iotham , manasseh , whilest onely two iehosaphat and hezekiah , endeavoured the reforming of refined idolatry , and iosiah alone perfected it . in both we may observe , that the kings were praised for doing so much , or dispraised for doing no more , which plainly proves , that the reforming of the church did properly pertaine unto them . god neither mistakes , nor confounds the good deeds , or rewards of men ; but set the due praises on the true persons ; the person that doth well shall be praised : the prince shall not be commended for the good deeds of the people , not the people commended for the good deeds of the prince ; indeed gods threatens the common people of israel , leviticus 26.23 . with beasts , warres , and many other plagues , if they will not be reformed . but we never read that god reproved the people , for not reforming the jewish church from idolatry , as a taske belonging to the supreme power placed over them . meane time meere private men must not be idle , but move in their spheare till the supreme power doth reforme . first , they are dayly to pray to god to inspire those who have power and place with will and skill , couragiously to begin , constantly to continue , and happily to conclude such a reformation . secondly , they are seriously to reforme themselves : he needs not to complaine of too little worke , who hath a little world in himselfe to amend : a good man in scripture is never called gods church ( because that is a collective terme belonging to many ) but is often termed gods temple , such a temple it is lawfull for every private man to reforme : he must see that the foundation of faith be firme , the pillars of patience be strong , the windowes of knowledge be cleere , the roofe of perseverance be perfected . thirdly , he may reforme the church in his house , philemon 2 , carefully looking to his owne family , ioshua 24.15 . that he and his house may serve the lord . but as for the publique reforming of the church in generall , he must let it alone as belonging to the supreme power , to whom it is appropriated . but seeing wee have occasion to speake of lawfull callings , what calling ( may some say ) have you to meddle with this point above your reach , and without your compasse ; who penned your commission to take such matters in hand ? leave the describing of reformers characters to such , who have more age , experience , and ability to performe it . i am , or should be , most sensible of mine owne weakenesse , being {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the least of those that dispence the word and sacraments . yet have i a calling as good as the church of england could give me : and if she be not ashamed of such a sonne , i count my selfe honoured with such a mother . and though meere private christians may not intermeddle with publick reforming of a church , gods prophets have in all ages , challenged the priviledge to tell necessary truths unto the greatest . the tongue used to be cut out of the roman sacrifices , and given unto their heraulds , to shew that freedome of language was allowed them . we are christs ambassadours , 2 corinthians 5.20 . and claime the leave to speak truth with sobernesse : and though i cannot expect my words should be like nailes fastened by the masters of the assemblies , eccl. 12.11 . yet i hope they may prove as tacks , entred by him that desires to be faithfull and peaceable in israel . the second requisite in reformers , is piety . the very snuffers in the tabernacle were made of pure gold , exodus 37.23 . they ought to be good themselves , who are to amend others , least that reproofe fall heavie on them , psalme 50.16 . but unto the ungodly ( saith god ) why doest thou preach my lawes , and takest my covenant in thy mouth ? whereas thou hatest to bee reformed , and hast cast my words behinde thee . and though sometimes bad men may reforme others , by vertue of their office : yet when it is done by the office of their vertue , and efficacy of their goodnesse , it is more gracefull in it selfe , more acceptable to god , and more comfortable to the doer . thirdly , knowledge in a competent , yea , plentifull measure : dangerous was the mistake committed by sir francis drake in eighty eight ; when neglecting to carry the lanthorne , ( as he was commanded ) in the darke night , chased five hulkes of the dutch merchants , supposing them to have been his enemies of the spaniards . such and worse errors may be committed in the reforming of a church , good mistaken for bad , and bad mistaken for good , where the light of knowledge is wanting for direction . fourthly , true courage and magnanimity , reformers need to be armed with a stout spirit cap à pee , which are to breake through the front of bad customes long received . such customes , as they are bad , are vsurpers , as they are customes are tyrants , and will stickle stoutly to stand in their old place . saint matthew saith , 27.15 . at the feast the governour was wont to release unto the people a prisoner . saint luke saith , 23.17 . of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast . what was but a curtesie at the first , grew in processe of time to bee a custome , and at last became a necessity . such customes made necessary by continuance must reformers expect to encounter , and resolve to remove . o , coward-lines in a magistrate is a great sinne ! who would thinke to finde the fearfull marching in the fore-front ? and yet in that forlorne hope which goeth to hell , revelations 21.8 . see them first named , but the fearfull , the unbeleeving and abominable , &c. so necessary is christian courage , especially in a reformer . fifthly and lastly , they must be endued with christian discretion , a grace that none ever speak against , but those that wanted it ; a good man will guide his affaires with discretion , psalme 112.5 . i must confesse there is a discretion ( falsely so called ) both carnall in it selfe , and inconsistent with true zeale , yea , distructive of it . christ had two disciples of the same name , the one a true man , the other a traytor , both iudasses . wherefore to prevent mistakes , the former is never cited in scriptures , but with an addition , iudas saith unto him , not iscariot , lord , &c. iohn 14.22 . iudas the servant of jesvs christ , and brother of iames , iude 1. in like manner wee , here mentioning discretion , call it christian discretion , for difference thereof , that all may know , we meane not that which destroyes zeale , but that which directs it ; not that which quencheth zeale , but which keepes it in the chimney , the proper place thereof ; not that which makes it lesse lively , but what makes it more lasting . this discretion , though last named , is not least needfull in the reformers of a church ; and must principally appeare in two things ; first , the not sparing of the tares for the wheats sake . secondly , the not spoyling the wheat for the tares sake . the not sparing the tares for the wheats sake . by tares we understand , not only things unlawfull in a church , but things unexpedient and unprofitable , which also must be removed . the barren fig-tree , luke 13.17 . was condemned , not for bearing deadly or dangerous fruit , but none at all . cut it downe , why cumbereth it the ground ? gods garden ought to bee so well dressed , as to have nothing superfluous , that doth harme that doth no good therein . hee that will not worke , neither shall hee eate , 2 thessalonians 3.10 . if such ceremonies are to be found in our church , which will not labour , neither needfull in themselves , nor conducing to decency , let them no longer have countenance in the church , nor maintenance from it . the not spoyling the wheat for the tares sake , and letting those things alone which are well ordered already . yet is there a generation of anabaptists , in number fewer , i hope , then are reported , yet more i fear then are discovered ; people too turbulent to obey , and too tyrannicall to command . if it should come into their hands to reforme , lord what worke would they make . very facile , but very foule is that mistake in the vulgar translation , luke 15.8 . instead of everrit domum , shee swept the house , 't is rendred , evertit domum , she overturnd the house . such sweeping we must expect from such spirits , which under pretence to cleanse our church , would destroy it . the best is , they are so farre from sitting at the helme , that i hope they shall ever be kept under hatches . now as discretion discovereth it selfe in the matter of reformation , so also it appeareth in the manner thereof . first , it is to be done with all reverence and respect to the ancient fathers . these , though they lived neer the fountain of religion , yet lived in the marches of paganisme ; as also in the time wherein the mystery of iniquity began to work , which we hope is now ready to receive the wages . if therefore there be found in their practice any ceremonies smacking of paganisme or popery , and if the same can be justly chalenged to continue in our church , i plead not for their longer life , but for their decent buriall . secondly , with honourable reservation to the memories of our first reformers . reverend cranmer , learned ridley , down right lattimer , zealous bradford , pious philpot , patient hooper , men that had their failings , but worthy in their generations ; these bare the heat of the day , indeed , which were burnt to ashes ; and though we may write a fairer hand then they , yet they affixed a firmer seal , that dyed for their doctrine . lastly , with carefulnesse , not to give any just offence to the papists . say not , we need not to feare to offend them , who would confound us . we have so long waited for their conversion , we have almost seene our subversion . indeed we are forbidden to offend gods little ones , but not inhibited to offend the devils great ones . and though s. paul bids us to give no offence to those that are without , that is meant of pure pagans ; and therefore the papists being neither well within nor well without , fall not under that precept . for all these expressions savour more of humor then holinesse , of stomack , then the spirit . though papists forget their duty to us , let us remember our duty to them ; to them , not as papists , but as professors of christianity , to their persons , not erronious opinions , not giving them any just offence . but if they will be offended without cause , be their amends in their own hands . if rebeckah will come to isaac , she shall be wellcome . but in no case shall isaac go back to rebeckah , genesis 34.6 . beware that thou bring not my son thither again . these five ingredients must compound effectuall reformers . where any , or all of these are wanting , a reformation will either not be made , or not long kept . witnesse the pretended reformation , the papists so much bragge off , in the last of queen mary , in the university of cambridge , by the delegates of cardinall poole . where nothing of worth was done , but many foolish ceremonies enforced , and the bones of bucer and phagius burnt . it passeth for the expression of mad man , to beat the aire ; and it is little better to beat the earth . to fight ( as they did ) against dust and ashes , bodies of men long before buried : except they thought by this similitude of burning dead bodies , to worke in silly people a beliefe of purgatory fire , tormenting soules deceased . now when it came into question whether the ordinances and decisions of those reformers should be ingrossed in parchment , or in paper , doctor swinborne , master of clare hall gave his opinion , that paper would doe the deed well enough , as being likely to last longer then those decrees should stand in force ; as afterward it came to passe , they being all rescinded in the next yeer , being the first of queene elizabeth . two things more must here be well observed . first , that there is a grand difference betwixt founding of a new church , and reforming of an old . for the former , saint paul outstript all men in the world . the papists bragge much of king edgar , who is said to have founded as many monasteries , as there be weekes in the yeer . surely more churches in asia and europe were built from the ground by saint paul , who strived to preach the gospel , not where christ was named , lest he should build upon another mans foundation , romans 15.20 . but reforming of churches is an easier work , as not giving a church the life but the lustre ; not the birth but the beauty ; either repairing what is defective , or removing what is redundant . thus we acknowledge solomon the sole founder of the temple , though ioash repaired it , amending the breaches thereof . iotham enlarged it , adding the beautifull porch thereto ; and ezechiah adorned it , covering the pillars with silver therein . however , it is worth our observing , that reformers are sometimes ambitious to entitle themselves to be founders , as being covetous of credit , and counting it more honour to make a thing , then to mend it . thus nebuchadnezzar boasted , daniel 4.30 . is not this great babylon that i have built for the house of the kingdome , by the might of my power , and for the honour of my majesty ? whereas babylon was built by nimrod , or ( as others say ) semyramis , many yeers before nebuchadnezzars cradle was made . yet he , no doubt , did encrease , strengthen , and beautifie it ; on which title , see how he engrosseth all the glory unto himselfe , as first , and sole founder ! is not this great babylon that i have built ? let none in like manner brag , that they are now the first founders of a church in england , built long since therein , time out of minde . we deny and defile such papists as say that augustine the monke was the first apostle of this island , where the gospel long before had been preached , though not to the saxons our ancestors , yet to the britans our predecessors . yea , having cause to search who first brought christianity over into britanny , my endeavours have been still at a losse and left at uncertainty . perchance as god , deuteronomie 34.6 . buried the body of moses , that no man knoweth the place of his sepulchre unto this day , to cut off from the jewes all occasion of idolatry ; so it seems his wisdom hath suffered the names of the first founders of religion here to be covered in obscurity , to prevent posterity from being superstitious to their memories . however , if justly we be angry with the papists for making the brittish church ( a tall stripling grown , ) to weare swadling cloathes againe : more cause have we to distaffe the pens and preachings of such who make their addresses unto us , as unto pure pagans where the word is newly to be planted . a moderne author tels us a strange story , how the servants of duke d. alva , seeking for a hawke they had lost , found a new country in the navell of spaine , not known before , invironed with mountaines , and peopled with naked salvages ; i should wonder if such a terra incognita could be found in england ; which ( what betwixt the covetousnesse of landlords and the carefulnesse of tenants ) is almost measured to an acre . but if such a place were discovered , i must allow that the preachers there were the first planters of the gospel , which in all others places of the kingdom are but the continuers thereof . i hope christ hath reaped much goodnesse long ago , where these , now , new pretend to plant it . and if england hath not had a true church hitherto , i feare it will not have a true church hereafter . the second thing i commend unto you is this , that a perfect reformation of any church in this world may be desired , but not hoped for . let zenophons cyrus be king in plato's common-wealth ; and batchelors wives breed maides children in mores vtopia , whilest roses grow in their gardens without prickles , as saint basil held they did before the fall of adam . these phansies are pleasing and plausible , but the performance thereof unfeisable ; and so is the perfect reformation of a church in this world difficult to bee described , and impossible to be practised . for besides that sathan will doe his best , or rather his worst to undoe it ; man in this life is not capable of such perfection . look not to finde that in man out of paradise , which was not found in man in paradise , continuance in an holy estate . martin luther was wont to say , he never knew good order in the church last above fifteen yeares , in the purity thereof ; yea , the more perfect the reformation is , the lesse time it is likely to last . mans minde being in constant motion , when it cannot ascend higher , will not stand still , but it must decline . i speake not this to dis-hearten men from endeavouring a perfect reformation , but to keep them from being dis-heartned , when they see the same cannot be exactly observed . and yet there are some now adayes that talke of a great light , manifested in this age more then ever before . indeed we modernes have a mighty advantage of the ancients , whatsoever was theirs , by industry , may be ours . the christian philosophy of iustin martyr ; the constant sanctity of cyprian ; the catholick faith of athanasius ; the orthodox judgement of nazianzen ; the manifold learning of ierome ; the solid comments of chrysostome ; the subtill controversies of augustine ; the excellent morals of gregory ; the humble devotions of bernard : all contribute themselves to the edification of us , who live in this later age . but as for any transcendent extraordinary miraculous light , peculiarly conferred on our times , the worst i wish the opinion is this , that it were true . sure i am that this light must not crosse the scripture , but cleere the scripture . so that if it affirmeth any thing contrary to gods written word , or enforceth any thing ( as necessary to salvation ) not exprest in gods word ; i dare boldly say , that such a light is kindled from hell . as for the opinion of christs corporall visible kingdome , to come within few yeares , i will neither peremptorily reject it , not dare absolutely receive it . not reject it , lest i come within the compasse of the apostles reproofe , 2 peter 2.12 . speaking evill of the things they understand not . confessing my selfe not to know the reasons of their opinions , who though citing for it much canonicall scripture , yet their interpretations thereof may be but apocrypha . nor dare we receive it , not being safe to be familiar with strangers at the first sight ; and this tenent is strange , as set commonly afoot with these few last yeares . i am afraid rather on the contrary of a generall defection . seeing the word is so slighted , and the guests begin to play with their meat , i feare lest god the master of the feast , will call for the voyder : that so when christ comes to judgement , he shall finde no faith on the earth . but of things to come , little and doubtfully . if this opinion of christs corporall comming very shortly be true , i hope if we live , we shall have our share therein : if otherwise , moses hath no cause to complaine , if dying he commeth not into the earthly canaan , but into the heavenly . meane time whilest we expect the personall comming of christ , let us pray for the peaceable comming back of him , who sometimes is called christ in the scripture , the lords annointed . o the miserable condition of our land at this time , god hath shewed the whole world , that england hath enough in it selfe to make it selfe happy or unhappy , as it useth or abuseth it . her homebred wares enough to maintain her , and her homebred warres enough to destroy her , though no forreigne nation contribute to her overthrow . well , whilest others fight for peace , let us pray for peace ; for peace on good termes , yea on gods termes , and in gods time , when he shall be pleased to give it , and we fitted to receive it . let us wish both king and parliament so well , as to wish neither of them better , but both of them best . even a happy accommodation . only this i will adde , that his majesty in making his medals , hath tooke the right course to propagate his promises and most royall intentions to posterity , and raise it to behold the performance thereof . seeing princes memories have beene perpetuated by their coines , when all other monuments , arches , obelisks , piramids , theaters , trophies , and triumphs , have yeelded to time , and been quite forgotten . yea , t is probable , that the names of some short reigning emperours had been quite lost , if not found in their impresses on their monies , coynes , having this peculiar priviledge to themselves ; that after they had beene buried many yeares in the ground , when taken up againe , they have life enough to speake the names of those princes that caused them and their impressions to be stamped , either to their eternall shame or lasting honour . to conclude , let us all provide for that perfect reformation in the world to come ; when christ shall present the church his spouse to god his father , without spot , comming from mans corruption , or wrincle , caused by times continuance . when we shall have a new heaven and a new earth , wherein shall dwell righteousnesse . with judgements reformed from error , wils reformed from wilfulnesse , affections reformed from mistaking their object , or exceeding their measure ; all powers and parts of soule and body reformed from sinne to sanctity . let us wait all the dayes of our appointed time till our change come . untill this time of reformation . amen . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a40686e-100 vse . object . answ. object . answ. camdens eliz. p. 367. fox . acts monum. pag. 1064 in a book of directions to travel . luthers predecessours: or an ansvvere to the question of the papists: where was your church before luther? bedford, thomas, d. 1653. 1624 approx. 52 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 16 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a07486) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 14420) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 778:02) luthers predecessours: or an ansvvere to the question of the papists: where was your church before luther? bedford, thomas, d. 1653. 28 p. imprinted by felix kingston for george winder, and are to be sold at his shop in saint dunstons church yard in fleetstreet, london : 1624. reproduction of the original in the emmanuel college (cambridge university) library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng reformation -england -early works to 1800. protestants -england -early works to 1800. 2004-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-03 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-04 olivia bottum sampled and proofread 2004-04 olivia bottum text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion luthers predecessours : or an answere to the qvestion of the papists : where was your church before luther ? london , imprinted by felix kingston for george winder , and are to be sold at his shop in saint dunstons church-yard in fleet-street . 1624. luthers predecessours : or , an answere to the qvestion of the papists : where was your church before luther ? amongst all those creatures that yeeld an vnpleasant sound , none are so clamorous and obstreperous , as frogs , and locusts ; these by land , the other by water , saluting each passenger with an vnwelcome note : the iust picture and resemblance of popish priests , and iesuites , which certainly are the frogs which s. iohn saw to come forth of the mouth of the beast , and the false prophet ; whose croaking and vnwelcome noise doth nor a little trouble each christian passenger : amongst other harsh notes of theirs , this question hath his place : for what musicke can there be in it ? where was your church before luther ? to what end is this question mooued , except it bee to trouble men ? for , what if wee could not prooue , that our english church was before luther ? must it needs follow , that the doctrine we hold is vntrue ? or shall the doctrine of the church of rome be euer the truer , because of onely antiquity ? what if arrius or nestorius could haue deduced the patrons of their opinions from adam , should they for that haue beene orthodoxall ? no certainly : and why not ? because the church must be prooued and allowed by the doctrine , and not the doctrine authorized by the church , which the papists ( a people wise in their generation ) well knowing , haue ouerturned the course of nature , & will haue the scripture and all doctrine to hang vpon the determination of the church : and vpon this ground it is , that they proceede to such questions as these , hoping that if they haue once amazed any one with the name of the church , and shall haue driuen him from title and interest to the church before luthers time , they shall easily make him call in question the whole frame of doctrine of the reformed churches . vnto this question answers haue beene made , arguments alledged to prooue that the doctrine of the protestant religion hath had his being in the world long before the dayes of luther : that argument of the worthy doctor featly cannot by any iesuite be answered , who concludeth , that the doctrine of the reformed churches must needs haue professours in all ages , because it is eternall : for eternity must needes haue a perpetuall duration without interruption . the argument of induction ▪ is that which better pleaseth the iesuite , but by no meanes will hee suffer our enumeration to begin with christ and his apostles ; for then what shifts , what cauils and tergiuisations they haue , may easily appeare by the proceedings of the late conference betwixt d. white , and d. featly , against fisher , and sweet : wherefore , to answer a foole , according to his folly , i haue indeuoured to draw the argument of induction à posteriore , beginning with the ages next before luther ; the which is not so hard a taske as commonly is imagined : but first , we must agree vpon the termes of this question , where was your church , & c ? where wee must first know what is meant by your , and what by church . for , if by your , they meane the church of our nation , that is , where was your english reformed church ? then are we to answer out of our own chronicles , and so shall we be able to name the fewer in all ages , and in some ages perhaps none ; not that there were none , but that the euidences are lost : but i suppose they doe not by the termes , your church , vnderstand a nationall or prouinciall church , because then must they prooue , that the church of the new testament is tyed to a place : so that where it once hath beene planted , there it should continue , which is contrary to all experience : besides , had they meant so , they would haue rather named tyndall , or some other englishman , then luther a german . by your church , they meane then those men in what country soeuer , which confessed and maintained the same doctrine . then , for the meaning of the word church , wee demand whether they mean a visible constituted church , which might haue beene knowne by the distinction and succession of bishops , elders , deacons , &c. or whether they meane generally any company of men , holding and professing those truths and doctrines which we maintaine ? for , if they will tye vs to the former , i say still , the taske is vnequall , because the records are wanting , but especially , because they cannot prooue that the church must alwayes bee in such manner visible : for in elias time there were 7000. vnknowne to him , much more to ahab . in the time of christs passion some of the papists say , that the church rested onely in marie ; and all doe vsually compare the church to the moone , which is alwayes lasting , but not alwaies in the full. but , if they meant the latter , namely , a company of men professing the same faith which wee doe ; then wee further propound to them two questions . the first is , whether the persecuting of any defacto , doe hinder the iustifying of them deiure , which they must needs denie , except they will beg the question : and then , though we finde such , and such , in former ages to haue beene condemned , yet if deiure , they ought not , and that we can iustifie their tenents , we shall proceed more easily in challenging them for ours . but if they would haue vs to name men vncondemned , liuing in peace , free from persecution , they must then prooue , that persecution doth take away the priuiledge of the church ; that those men shall not be of the church , because persecuted : which if they goe about , they must wipe out the whole infancy of the church for the first 300. yeeres ; but they shall neuer be able to prooue it : for the woman in reuel . 12. was constrained to flie into the wildernesse for feare of the dragon . the second is , what those doctrines are , which we must prooue , those whom wee seeke for to haue held : for , if they meane the fundamentall poynts of religion , contained in the creed for matters of faith , in the decalogue for matter of practice , and in the lords praier for matter of praier , they themselues shall be our spokesmen , for they and wee hold these in common ; but if they meane those points of doctrine wherein we dissent from the present church of rome ( which they must do if they vnderstand themselues in the question ) then we further desire to know whether they will not allow vs to challenge those for ours , who held the most , and mainest , for which they suffered as well as wee ; although ( perhaps ) in some other points they dissented from vs in our generall tenents : for , if they will allow vs onely such , who both in doctrine and discipline did in all points agree , they are too narrow for any dispute ; besides , they must prooue that there hath beene alwaies such an vnity of words and doctrine , that in no point the professours haue or may dissent , and yet remaine members of the church : a taske that will neuer fadge well , especially with them in their mutinous multitude and rabble of religious orders ; yea , let them then call to minde how weakely harding hath defended his answere of bishop iewels challenge ; or , let them answere perkins problem , and prooue where their church was before the trent councell ; for it will asmuch trouble them to name a company of men in all points professing the trent faith , as vs , to finde a company of men professing in all points the doctrine of the reformed religion : but if they giue vs liberty to make challenge to them , who in the most and greatest points haue agreed with vs ( which is but reasonable ) then in the next place we desire to grow to a point , and agree vpon the maine points of difference betwixt vs and them : all which in generall do concerne either the offices of christ , or the fruites of his office , the which by their doctrine are ouerthrowne . for first , the kingly office of christ is ouerthrowne by the supremacy of the pope , which draweth with it the pride of the clergy , and exaltation of them aboue the temporall power . secondly , the propheticall office is ouerthrowne by their silencing the scripture , and by giuing such liberty to the church , yea , and to the pope , to frame articles of faith . thirdly , the priestly office is ouerthrowne in the worke of satisfaction , by merits , indulgences , purgatory , &c. in the worke of application , by their abuses thrust into the sacraments , especially transubstantiation , reall presence , exorcismes , &c. & by their false sacraments , which were neuer appointed by christ , as meanes of application . in the worke of intercession , by angels , saints , images , whom they haue made their mediators of intercession . lastly , the fruites of christs office , redounding to vs by the mediation of christ , is our iustification before god , which doctrine they haue laboured to ouerthrow . now to the point , this our taske wee are to shew forth the names of such men , who haue consented with vs in the opposition of the supremacy , exemption of the clergy from ciuill iurisdiction , in the authority of the scriptures , and in the communicating of them to the people , in condemning merits , indulgences , purgatory , transubstantiation , reall presence , intercession of saints , and angels , image worship , pilgrimage ; in the doctrine of our free iustification by faith , and such other points , which are controuerted betwixt vs , and the church of rome . and this wee will doe first in the instance of our owne ▪ countrimen , and then proceed to others . know all men therefore by these presents , that about the yeere of grace 1370. in the time of edward the third , king of england , at what time all the world was in most desperate and vile estate , and that lamentable ignorance and darkenesse of gods truth , had ouer-shaddowed the church most ; iohn wickliffe , who almost 200. yeeres before luther , by the especiall prouidence of god , was raised vp here in england , to detect more fully and amply , the poison of the popes doctrine , and to purge religion from those dregs and filthinesse , with which it was defiled ; a professor of diuinitie was he in oxford , a man of note in his time , and of famous memory in the ages following : for after hee had begunne to publish some conclusions touching the doctrine of the sacrament , and other abuses of the church , ( which boyle and sore could not be touched , without the great paine and griefe of the world ) hee was much infested with the monkes and friers , who like hornets , did assaile the good man on euery side : after them , the priests tooke the matter in hand , and symon sudbery , archbishop , depriued him of his benefice in oxford ; yet by the friendly and fauourable assistance of iohn of gaunt , duke of lancaster , and henry percy , earle marshal , ( being also befriēded of the king , who had heretofore made vse of him in an ambassage ) he bore out the malice of the friers , and of the archbishop , all the dayes of edward the third , and of pope vrban ; who being busied in suppressing his aduersary , clement the seuenth , could not spare any time to deale with wickliffe : and so it came to passe , by gods prouidence , that the truth began to take some place and roote in mens hearts . afterward in the beginning of richard the 2. and of gregory the eleuenth , his aduersaries espied their time , and incensed the pope against him , who sendeth foorth his bull to the vniuersity of oxford , and an epistle to the king , with diuers letters to the bishops , dated all 11. kal. of iune , in the seuenth yeere of his pontificality 1378. by which it appeareth , that wicklife was a man of note , and that these things were not done in a corner , but that his preaching had taken effect : so that the bishops had neede of the popes owne helpe to suppresse him and his abettors ; the which although they attempted , yet could they not bring to passe : his commendation testified by the vniuersitie is this : that hee behaued himselfe as a stout champion of the faith , neither was hee conuict of any heresie : and god forbid ( saith the testimoniall ) that our prelates should haue condemned a man of such honesty , of heresie . his bookes were many , and spred abroade , not only throughout england , but also by occasion of queene anne , wife to richard the second , sister to wenceslaus king of bohemia , carried into bohemia , whence iohn husse learned the beginnings of his knowledge . thus was this man a most worthy instrument in the church of god , like a bright starre shining farre and neere . now for his conclusions which are recorded for his ; they are many , & gathered by his aduersaries , and therefore if in all points they sound not so well as we could desire , yet certainely wee may beleeue that they were not so bad as some of them are deliuered . wee finde that in a conuention at london 1382. may 17. they proceeded to the condemnation of his articles , some as hereticall , some as erroneous : the which also were afterward presented to the councell of constance , with diuers others to the number of 45. in all , and by the same councell condemned ; the which for breuitie sake i haue collected vnto their seuerall heads . 1. touching the supremacy , hee held that it is not necessary to saluation , to beleeue that the church of rome is supreme head of all churches : that the church of rome is the synagogue of satan ; neither is the pope immediately the vicar of christ , nor his apostles , and that the excommunication of the pope and his prelates is not to bee feared , because it is the censure of antichrist . 2. concerning religious orders ( which are the tayle of antichrist ) he taught , that those holy men , as francis , dominick , benedict , &c ▪ which haue instituted priuate religions whatsoeuer they be , in so doing , haue grieuously offended ; and such who do found monasteries , doe offend and sin ; so all such who enter into such religions , are thereby vnable to keepe the commandements of god , as also to attaine to the kingdome of heauen , except they returne from the same : yea , that religious men being in their priuate religion , are not of the christian religion , but are members of the diuell . 3. concerning the authoritie of the church , his doctrine was , that whatsoeuer the pope and his cardinals can deduce cleerely out of the scriptures , that only is to bee beleeued , or to bee done at their admonition ; and that whatsoeuer else they command , is to bee condemned as hereticall ; as for the decretals of the pope , they are apocrypha , and seduce men from the faith of christ ; and the clergy that studie them , are fooles . 4. as touching preaching and hearing the word , which is the execution of christs propheticall office , hee taught ; that it is lawfull for any man either priest or deacon , to preach the word of god , without the authoritie of the apostolike sea , or any other of his catholikes ; and that all such , who doe leaue preaching or hearing the word , for feare of their excommunication , they are already excommunicated , and in the day of iudgement , shal be counted traitors against god. 5. hee opposed also the selling of prayers , pardons , indulgences , and such popish trash , by which the satisfaction of christ is weakened ; affirming , that it was but a folly to beleeue the popes pardons . item , that all such , as bee hired for temporall liuing to pray for other , doe offend and sinne in simony . 6. in the doctrine of the sacraments , which are the instruments of christ , to apply to vs the work of his satisfaction , he laboureth much to reforme the abuses . 1. in baptisme , hee found fault with their doctrine of necessity ; teaching , that they which doe affirme , that the infants of the faithfull departing without the sacrament of baptisme , are not saued , are presumptuous and fooles in so affirming . 2. in the supper of the lord , hee opposed the reall presence , and transubstantiation , teaching , that christ is not really in the sacrament of the altar , in his proper and corporall person , but only figuratiuely ; that without all doubt it is a figuratiue speech to say , this is my body . item , that the substance of materiall bread and wine , euen bread in his owne substance , doth remaine in the sacrament of the altar , and ceaseth not to be bread still . that the accidents do not remain without the subiect in the same sacrament , after the consecration . so also hee taught ; that it is not found , or established by the gospell , that christ did ordaine masse . 3. as for the other fiue , which we count bastard-sacraments , some he did doubt of , as , extreame vnction : for this is one article , if corporall vnction , or anneyling , were a sacrament as it is faigned to be , christ and his apostles would not haue left the ordinance thereof vntouched . so also for shrift : if a man be duely and truely contrite and penitent , all outward confession is superfluous and vnprofitable . other sacraments he complained of , as being abused ; hallowing of churches , ( saith hee ) confirmation of children , and the sacrament of orders , be reserued to the pope and bishops onely , for the respect of temporall lucre . so also concerning matrimony , he held , that the causes of diuorcement , of consanguinity , or affinity , be not founded in the scripture , but are onely the ordinances of men , and humane inuentions . 7. lastly , concerning the power of the keyes , and the churches censures , his positions are ; that no prelate ought to excommunicate any man , except he know him first to be excommunicate of god : and that he that doth excommunicate any other man , is thereby himselfe either an hereticke , or excommunicate . item , that a prelate excommunicating any man of the clergy , which hath appealed to the king , or to the councell , is thereby himselfe a traitour to the king and realme . this in effect is the summe of his doctrine , wherein howsoeuer there may be , some few small slips , or harsh phrases , yet no pernicious errours , much lesse , damnable heresie ; but for the substance , it is sound and good , and agreeable to the canon of the world. wherefore , howsoeuer the synod of london , and the councell of constance , haue agreed to condemne these articles and his books , yea , & his bones also to the fire ( 41. yeeres after his death ) yet since de iure they ought not so to haue done , and that we are able to iustifie his doctrine , we are bold to challēge him as a fit instance to answer the question proposed ; and doe conclude , that our church had a being , and the doctrine of the reformed churches had professors , long before the dayes of luther . but goe to , let vs goe on , and see what other can be named ; one swallow maketh no summer , nor one professor a church . true : and therefore except we can draw downe the profession of this doctrine successiuely from wickcliffe , to the dayes of luther , let vs lose all this labour : wherefore we are to know , that both together with wickcliffe , and after him , arose a multitude in the church of england , maintaining the same doctrine , and spreading it abroad among the people , labouring with might and maine to defend it . such were lau. redman , master of arts , dau. sawtree , diuine , iohn aschwarby , vicar of s. maries church in oxford , william iones , an excellent young-man well learned , th. brightwell , will. haulam a ciuilian , ralph grenhurst , io. scut , ph. norrice , who being excommunicate by pope eugenius the fourth , appealed to a generall councell ; peter paine , lord cobham , with diuers others , whose names are mentioned in the kings writ , sent to the sheriffe of northampton , giuen at the mannor of langly , march 8. in the 12. of richard the second : so also , for confirmation of their multitudes , the words of the statute made anno 5. of richard 2. about this time w. courtny archbishop , being in his visitation at leicester , conuented diuers before him , as dexter , tailor , wagstaffe , scriuener , smith , henry , parchmeanar , goldsmith ; these , with other moe , were accused to the archbishop , for holding the opinion of the sacrament of the altar , auricular confession , and other sacraments , contrary to that which the church of rome did teach : the which persons , because being cited they came not in , were solemnely accursed as hereticks with bell , booke , and candle ; yea , and by the same archbishop was the whole towne of leicester interdicted , so long as any of these excommunicate persons should remaine in it . there was also one matilda an anchoresse accused of the same opinions : all this happened in 1387. in the 10. yeere of richard 2. about the same time peter pateshall an austen frier , hauing obtained leaue of the pope to change his coate and religion , hearing the doctrine of wickliffe , and others of the same sort , began to preach openly , and to detect the vices of his couent , preaching in london , & by the londoners graciously entertained and vpheld against the turbulent friers , who sought to molest him . thus by the preaching of wickliffe , and others , the gospell began to fructifie and spread abroad in london , and other places of the realme , and more would haue done , had not the prelates set themselues so forcibly with might and maine to gaine-stand the course thereof . 1389. william swinderby a worthy defender of the faith , with wickliffe , was accused to the bishop of lincolne , of certaine articles , both vntruely collected and cruelly exhibited against him by the friers , & by their vehemency was vrged to reuoke : afterward he remoouing into the diocesse of hereford , was there also molested and troubled vnder iohn tresnant bishop of hereford , vpon the same articles ; the which articles as they were giuen in by the friers , and how answered by swinderby in his protestation , hangeth vpon record , and out of the registers in the same old english in which it was written , is by m. fox transcribed into his history of the church : by the reading of which protestation , wee may note a notable piece of knauery in his accusers , viz. not to deliuer his assertions faithfully , as he did deliuer them , but as they supposed to make him most odious in the defence of them ; and by that we may well guesse , that these points in wickliffe , which seeme rough and harsh , met with such vnhandsome workmen . the processe against this swinderby , his declaration vpon certaine conclusions touching the sacrament of the altar , confession , indulgences , and touching antichrist , his appeale to the king , his letter to the parliament , doe sufficiently confirme his worth and sufficiency in the cause . 1391. walter brute a man of sufficient learning , though no priest , was conuented before the bishop of worcester , and accused of the same articles with swinderbies : admirable it is to reade his storie , especially in it , his learned declarations concerning antichrist , the popes vsurped power , the power of the keyes , free iustification by faith onely , auricular confession , absolution , the matter of the sacrament , transubstantiation , idolatry , exorcising , priestly blessing , buying and selling of prayers , and other romish dregs , the lawfull vse of an oath ; in which hee also prooueth that the city of rome is babylon . what could hee haue done more in our cause , had he liued since luther ? out of his declarations may be taken a sufficient commentary and exposition of those articles , which as they are ascribed vnto wickliffe , seeme something harsh . furthermore , the bull of pope boniface the 9. dated the 15. kal. oct. in the 6. yeere of his popedome , directed to king richard the 2. and to the bishop of hereford , doth confesse , that these christians whom the common people called lollards , did daily grow and increase , and preuaile against their diocesans , for which cause the pope stirreth vp the king against them , who therupon directed forth a commission to the bishops , to proceed with greater authority against william swinderby , stephen bell , walter brute , and others of the same opinions : by which meanes the growth of the gospell was nipped , and a little kept in , but afterward it brake forth with more effectualnesse , as may appeare by the booke of conclusions exhibited to the parliament holden at london , in the 18. of richard the 2. 1395. touching the abuses of the church , popish priest-hood , single life of priests , the fained miracle of transubstantiation , exorcismes , and priestly blessings , masses for the dead , pilgrimages , and oblations to reliques and images , confession , nunnes and widdowes vowing single life , in all which , a reformation was desired in the said bill , the copy whereof is to bee seene in archiuis regijs : so also the kings dealing with certaine of his lords , as namely , richard sturie , lewis clifford , tho. latimer , io. mountacute , &c. whom he did sharpely rebuke and threaten terribly , for that he heard them to be fauourers of that side . adde to this the complaints of the bishops against the londoners , occasioned by another brawle ; but certainely the maine matter was , because the londoners were fauourers of wickliffes doctrine , as in the story of s. albons is to be seene , vpon which occasion the king remoued the courts and termes to be kept at yorke , to the great decay of the city , which happened an. 1393. all these things laid together , doe plainely and demonstratiuely tell vs , that there was more then one or two knowne to be infected , else what need such adoo with letters , epistles , bulls , mandates , commissions to roote out the proceeding of a few . no doubt therefore but there were many worthy witnesses and confessors of the truth of the gospell . 1400. after the deposing of richard 2. when henrie 4. had gotten the crowne , the next yeere hee called a parliament , in which one w. sawtree , a good man , and faithfull priest , inflamed with the zeale of true religion , required he might be heard for the commodity of the whole realme . but the matter being smelt out by the bishops , they obtained that it might be referred to the conuocation ; before whom being conuented & examined of diuers ▪ articles of religion , agreeable to wickliffes doctrine , for that hee stood constantly in the defence of the truth , was by them condemned , degraded , and lastly burned . and this was the first martyr that suffered for religion , since the renuing of it by wickliffe : for howsoeuer the bishops had obtained the statute de comburendo , in the daies of rich. 2. yet in all his time none suffered death for that cause . but when henry 4. came to the crowne , hee willing to keepe in with the clergy , which in those daies was a strong faction , put the statute in execution , first vpon this sawtree , and after him followed many moe , some whereof are recorded , but certainely the names of many are lost and forgotten . see the words of the statute made in the second yeere of henry the fourth , mentioning a good company of such preachers , whom that age called hereticall . 1407. the storie of william thorpe is famous , written by his owne hand , contayning his accusation and examination before archbishop arundell ; his answere , his commendation of vvickliffe , and defence of his doctrine , he taught against the sacrament of the altar , masse , images , pilgrimages , pride of priest , confession , &c. a constant professour hee was of the truth , and questionlesse continued to the end , howsoeuer his end is vnknowne : in all likely-hoode he dyed in prison . the like end befell to iohn ashton , another of wickliffes followers , who for the same doctrine of the sacrament , was condemned by the bishops , and because he would not recant , was committed to perpetuall prison , wherein the good man continued vntill his death . somewhat before thorps trouble , happened the trouble of iohn puruey , who , as waldensis writeth , was the library of the lollards , and a glosse vpon wickliffe . this puruey , together with harford , a doct. of diuinity , were grieuously tormented and punished in the castle of saltwood , at length recanted at pauls crosse , afterward , againe hee was imprisoned vnder archbishop chichely , in the yeere 1421. his articles which he taught , were touching transubstantiation , confession , power of the keyes , vowes of chastity , the charge of priests ; he said that innocent the third , and the 600. bishops , and all the rest of the clergy which in the councell of lateran determined the doctrine of transubstantiation and confession , were fooles and blockheads , seducers of the people , heretickes , and blasphemers : he wrote diuers bookes , as touching the sacrament of the lords supper , of penance , orders , the power of the keyes , the preaching of the gospell , of marriages , vowes , possessions , correction of the clergy , of the lawes and decrees of the church , of the state and condition of the pope and clergy . 1409. iohn badly first , molested and condemned by the bishop of worcester , was afterwards accused before archbishop arundel , and other his assistants , for being vnsound in the doctrine of the sacrament , as denying the reall presence , and transubstantiation : and being demanded whether he would renounce and forsake his opinions , and adhere to the doctrine of the catholike church , hee confessed , that he had both said and maintained the same , and would adhere and stand to these his opinions , and while he liued , would neuer retract the same ; for which hee was condemned , and in smithfield burned . after this , the prelates not contenting themselues with this , that now they had the power of the secular arme to assist them in the punishment of heretikes , and hauing a king to their mind , ready to serue their turne in al points , at the parliamēt thē held , procured the statute ex officio , the sequell whereof cost many a man his life : at the same time also came foorth diuers constitutions of archbishop arundell , forbidding to preach or teach any thing contrary to the determination of the church in the points of the sacrament of the altar , matrimony confession , or other sacraments , or other articles of faith . item , that no schoolemasters should , in teaching the sciences , intermingle any thing concerning the sacraments , contrary to the determination of the church . that none of wickliffes bookes should bee read , those onely excepted which the vniuersitie of oxford had allowed . item , that none should translate any text of scripture into english. item , that diligent inquisition should bee made by euery prouost , principall , and master of euery colledge in oxford , among the schollers , for persons defamed of heresie . now let all men iudge , whether these constitutions giuen at oxford in this manner , do not plainely declare , that there was a great company of these men who professed and taught such points , which these constitutions did condemne . againe , is it any wonder , that after such strength and force , such policy and practices vsed to supplant the doctine of wickliffe , and his followers , it should bee almost extinguished ? the bishops and clergy hauing the king on their side , armed with lawes , statutes , punishments , imprisonments , fire , faggot , sword , and the like , what wonder is it , if they beare all before them ? is it equall to challenge vs to shew foorth our church , to require a visibility of it , when these who are our aduersaries , hauing the sword in their hand , did labour so abundantly to suppresse the memoriall of them ? and yet by the goodnesse of god it came to passe , as may appeare by the registers , that those persons whom they condemned and detested as heretikes , calling them lollards , did increase daily in diuers countries , especially at london , in lincolne-shire , norfolke , hereford , shrewsbury , and in calice , and other quarters , in the prouince of canterbury , with whom archbishop arundel had much adoe , as by his registers doth appeare . 1413. henry the fourth beeing dead , succeeded henry the fifth , crowned on passion sunday , presently after began a parliament to be called and holden after easter , at westminster ; at which time also was holden a synod at london vnder archbishop arundel : the chiefe cause of assembling thereof , was , to represse the growing of the gospell ; and especially to withstand the noble and worthy lord cobham , who was then noted to be a principall fauourer , receiuer , and maintainer of them , whom the clergy called lollards , especially in the diocesse of london , hereford , and rochester , setting them vp to preach , whom the bishops had not licensed : hee was also accused to bee farre otherwise in the beliefe of the sacraments of the altar , of penance , of pilgrimage , image-worship , and of ecclesiasticall power , then the holy church of rome had taught for many yeeres before ; his examination , confession , and declaration of his christian beliefe , his godly answers , and reasons , his constancy in the truth is worth the reading . finally , he was also condemned , and committed to the tower , out of which hee made an escape , peraduenture not without the helpe of sir roger acton , who himselfe , whatsoeuer hee was otherwise , certaine it is that hee was alwaies of a contrary minde and opinion to the romish bishops and clergy , for which he was greatly hated of thē : his friendly helpe to the lord cobham , is thought to haue bin the cause why hee was apprehended , and brought into trouble ; and in the end came to his death , some three yeres before the lord cohbam ; and with him i. browne , and i. bouerly a preacher , suffered the same kind of death in s. giles fields , with other moe , to the number of 36. as the stories doe report : all which are said to haue bin hanged and burned in the moneth of ianuary 1413. the which death also the lord cobham suffred some foure yeeres after his escape , being betrayed and brought in by the lord powes , either for the hatred of the religion , and true doctrine of iesus christ , or else for greedinesse of the reward promised by the king to them that could bring in the lord cobham aliue or dead : for being thus taken , he was adiudged to be hanged vpon the new gallows in s. giles field , and burned hanging : for you must know that the prelates ( the better to suppresse this doctrine ) had gotten an act passed , which condemned the lollards and followers of wickliffe , decreeing , that they should be accounted as traitors to the king and realme , and so should suffer double punishment , viz. to be burnt as heretikes , and hanged as traitors to the king ; testified by polydore virgil , and by waldensis . 1415. after th. arundel , succeeded archbishop chichely , before whom was conuented iohn claydon , who for the space of 20. yeeres before had beene suspected of lollardy ; he was accused to haue diuers bookes in english , out of which his aduersaries collected 15. articles , which they condemned as hereticall and erronious ; for which cause he was condemned , and shortly after , together with rich. turning , burned in smithfield . shortly after , the archbishop , with the rest of the clergy , made other constitutions against the lollards : after the setting forth of which constitutions , great inquisition followed in england , and many good men , whose hearts began to fauour the gospell , were brought to much vexation and trouble , and caused outwardly to abiure . thus while christ had the inward hearts of men , antichrist would needs possesse the outward body , and make them sing his song : in the number of whom were i. taylor , w. iames , i. dwerfe , iohn iourdly , m. roberts , parson of hegly , w. henry , i. gall , bart. cornmonger , n. hooper , th. granter ; so also ralph mongin priest , was condemned to perpetuall prison . after this followed the recantation of ric. monke , and of edmund frith , besides many more recorded in the same register , who likewise for their faith and religion were much vexed and troubled . the names of 16. are set downe in the processe of the archbishop , directed forth against the same persons , whereof some whole housholds , both men and women , were driuen to forsake their houses & townes for danger of persecution : yea , so cruelly was the romish clergy bent against them , and so grieued to see the poore flocke of christ to multiply , that henry chichely stirred vp the pope against them ; alledging that there were so many infected with the doctrine of wickliffe and husse here in england , that without force of an army they could not be suppressed . 1422. henry 5. being dead , his sonne henry 6. a child of nine moneths old succeeded ; in the first yeere of whose raigne was w. taylor accused , conuicted , condemned , & afterward in smithfield with christian constancy , after long imprisonment did consummate his martyrdome . others there were that professed the same truth , but for feare durst not be so bold ; so that it appeareth by the registers of norwich in that diocesse within the space of 3. yeeres , viz. from 1428. to 1431. about the number of 120. men and women were examined , and much vexed for the profession of the christian faith ; of whom three suffered death , viz. father abraham of colchester , w. white , and i. waddon , priests ; the rest sustained such cruell penance as pleased the bishop & his chancellor to lay vpon them , which howsoeuer , through the hard dealing of the times , they were constrained to recant , and many of them to abiure their opinions , yet their good will to the truth is manifest : and it is fit to preserue the memory of their names , if it be but to stop the mouth of such malignant aduersaries , who following blind affection rather then true knowledge of times and antiquities , through ignorance blame they know not what , accusing the true doctrine of the gospell to be nouelty , and the preachers thereof to bee nouelists , whereas this doctrine lacking none antiquity , hath from time to time burst forth , and preuailed in many places , though in the most through tyranny it hath beene suppressed , as by these good men of norfolk & suffolk may appeare , who if they had had the liberty which we haue , and authority to back them , it would haue well appeared how old this doctrine is , so that all men would haue acknowledged , that this our church was long before luther . 1430. shortly after the solemne coronation of hen. 6. which was in the 8. yeere of his raigne , was richard houedon , a londoner , crowned with martyrdome . the next yeere th. bagly a priest , and paul craw a bohemian , both valiant defenders of wickliffes doctrine , were condemned and burned . not long after , about the yeere 1439. which was the 18. of henry 6. was ri. wiche burned for heresie , as then they counted it . so much the more famous was his martyrdome , because the fame was , that before his death he spake as prophesying , that the posterne of the tower should sinke , which came to passe ; vpon which hee was counted an holy man. many came to the place where he was burnt , and there made their oblations , till by the commandement of the king they were forbid , and some punished . after chichely , in the see of canterbury succeeded stafford , kempe , and then burscher , in whose time fell out the trouble of reynold peacock , bishop of chichester , who after the death of humfrey duke of gloucester , his patron , was molested by the archbishop in the yeere 1457. because he taught against the reall presence , the infallibility of the councels , the locall dissention into hell : that the church may erre in matter of faith : that the literall sence of the scripture is onely to be held : he was at length inforced to giue way ; for , what with blustering threats to terrifie him , as also with faire promises to allure him , they left no stone vnrolled , till they brought him to recantation at pauls crosse , where also his bookes were burnt , yet for all this , himselfe ( belike he was suspected ) was kept in his own house during his naturall life . 1473. king henry 6. being deposed , edward 4. got the crowne ; in the time of whose raigne , a godly and constant seruant of christ , named iohn goose , alias husse , was vniustly condemned and burnt at the tower hill . 1485. henry 7. comming to the crowne , mention is made in the registers of couentry and lichfield , of 9. persons persecuted in that diocesse , whose names are set downe to be i. blomston , rich. hegham , robert crowther , i. smith , rob. browne , th. butler , i. falkes . r. hilman . the heresies , of which they were accused , were , for opposing pilgrimages , images , merits , purgatory , shrift , transubstantiation , and the like . after these , in the ninth yeere of henry 7. was burned an old woman of 80. yeeres , loane boughton by name , who held eight of wickliffes opinions so stiffely , that all the doctours in london could not turne her : she was burned in smithfield shortly after in anno 1497. some for feare recanted at pauls crosse , and in the next yeere , an old man and a priest , and one babram were burned . 1506. william tilsworth was burned for his religion in amersham , at which time , ioane clarke the said tilsworths daughter , was constrained to put fire to her father , at whose burning , about 60. other were enioyned to beare fagots , of whom diuers were commanded to beare and weare fagots at lincolne the space of 7. yeeres after , some at one time , some at another . a little after was father roberts a miller of missenden burned at buckingham , and 20. other bare fagots , and did penance . about 2. or 3. yeres after , at amersham was burned th. barnard , & la. mordon in one fire , and father rogers , and father reeue was burned in the cheeke . so also was w. littlepage , and 30. more were burned in the right cheeke , and bare fagots at the same time . the manner of their burning in the cheeke was this : their neckes being tyed fast to a poste with towels , and their hands holden that they might not stirre , they were marked with a hot iron ; the cause of those mens trouble was , because they talked against superstition , and idolatry , and were desirous to heare and reade the holy scriptures . thomas chase condemned by the bishop of lincolne , william smith , and cast into prison , was there murthered , and after slandered to haue made away himselfe . thomas norrice for the profession of christs gospel was burned at norwich 1507. elizabeth samson accused to speake against pilgrimages , adoration of images , and against the sacrament of the altar , was compelled to abiure before william horsey , chancellor at london 1508. laurence ghest , two yeeres in prison at salisbury , was afterward put to death for his religion : so also was there martyred another poore woman , whose death so greedily sought by the chancellor whittington , was presently reuenged by the enraged bul , which running through the prease of people , came to the chancellor , and gored him thorow with his hornes , carrying his guts along the streets , to the great admiration and wonder of all them that saw it . 1509. h. 7. hauing finished his course , after him followed h. 8. in whose dayes hapned much stir and contention about religion , as in the history of the church doth appeare : in the regist. of fitz-iames , b. of london , are cōtained the names of diuers , to the number of 40. persecuted in the diocesse of london , betweene the yeere 1509. and 1527. of whom , some , after they had shewed their weaknes in recanting , did afterwards returne to their former profession , and cleauing fast to it , were for it martyred , as w. sweeting , & i. bruster burned in smithfield 1511. & i. browne burned in ashford , about the 4. yere of h. 8. about which time also fell out the trouble of rich. hunne , whom after his death they condemned of heresie . but now the numbers of confessors and martyrs arise to such multitudes , that a long discourse , and a large treatise would hardly suffice to set them downe ; wherefore i passe ouer the story of i. stilman , tho. man , rob. cosin , chri. shomaker , martyrs ; as also diuers confessors , to the number of 35. abiured about the yeere 1520. for speaking against worshipping of saints , pilgrimage , inuocation of the virgin , the sacrament of the lords body , and for hauing bookes in english , as the 4. euangelists , the epistles of paul , peter , and iames , the book of the reuelation , a booke of antichrist , of the 10. commandements , and wickliffes wicket , bookes no doubt wonderfully stuft with heresies , & doctrine vnmeet for christians to know , and vnderstand . oh the subtilty of those romish foxes ! how many men and women were persecuted in the diocesse of lincolne , vnder bishop longland , anno 1521. for opposing , or not consenting to the romish doctrine of pilgrimage , image-worship , transubstantiation , reall presence . their arguments they collected out of the scripture , the shepheards calender , wickliffes wicket , and such other bookes as they had amongst them , and notwithstanding they had not with them any learned man to ground them in the doctrine , yet they conferring together , did conuert one another , the lords hand working among them maruelously . after the great abiuration which was vnder bishop smith , they were termed amongst themselues knowne men , or iust fast men ; not much vnlike to the present name of protestants : amongst whom , to see their trauels , their earnest seeking , burning zeale , their readings , watchings , sweete assemblies , loue , and concord , godly liuing , faithfull meaning , may make vs , now in these our dayes of free profession , to be ashamed . from all which duely considered , we may easily gather , what would haue bin the number of professors , had the world looked friendly vpon them ; for if when the temporall magistrate tooke hand with the ecclesiasticall to suppresse them , and roote them out ; if when all men of note and learning , either for hope of preferment , or feare of trouble , turned their studies otherwaies ; if when the scripture , and english bookes were forbidden ; if when bookes were so rare , and deare , and so hard to come by ( as before the science of printing was inuented they were ) if notwithstanding all these hinderances , the truth of god did so multiply amongst them , what would it haue done , had they had multitude of bookes , or those cheape , the scripture in english , had they had learned men to guide them , had they liued in a peaceable time , had they had the magistrate either for them , or at least not against them : for why was the increase of the gospell in bohemia by the preaching of i. husse , more remarkable and further spred , then here in england , but that the magistrate with his sword was not so seuere against them ? whence was it that luther preuailed more then wickliffe , but that hee had a supporter ( the duke of saxony ) which wickliffe wanted ? amongst vs at this day , doe we not all know , that arminianisme would haue more preuailed , and infected further then yet it doth , if the kings maiesty were either for it , or not against it ? wherefore all men may easily see , that they are much deceiued , who cōdemne this our doctrine of nouelty , and insultingly demand , where was your church before luther ? to whom wee answere out of this demonstration hitherto made , that euer since the dayes of wickliffe , almost 200. yeeres before luther , the doctrine of the reformed churches , that is , those points wherein they differ from the church of rome , and in which the reformation doth consist , these points ( i say ) were held and professed : for whence came those persecutions ? or vvho vvere they that thus were persecuted ? if of the same profession with them , then is their cruelty vnreasonable , to persecute their ovvn fraternity : if they were othervvise ; how then is the doctrine of the reformed churches so new , or the professours thereof so lately start vp , as our aduersaries pretend they be ? but this is the fruit of ignorance and carelesnesse to read the histories of the church , and the records of antiquity heretofore : for then might men easily see , that the church of england hath not wanted multitudes of well-disposed hearts ; howsoeuer the publike authority then lacked , to maintaine the open preaching of the gospell . now whilst our aduersaries bethinke themselues what to say to this part of the induction , concerning the estate of the church in our owne country of england , in the ages next before luther , i wil passe ouer into germany , and see what successe the gospell had there , especially in bohemia , by the preaching of iohn husse and others , who liued in the same age with wickliffe : afterwards will i proceede to prosecute the argument of the induction , by the demonstration of history in the ages before wickliffe , and husse , if it shall be thought conuenient . finis . the english case, exactly set down by hezekiah's reformation in a court sermon at paris / dr. steward ... steward, richard, 1593?-1651. 1687 approx. 66 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 19 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a61497 wing s5521 estc r3486 12185958 ocm 12185958 55788 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a61497) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 55788) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 879:7) the english case, exactly set down by hezekiah's reformation in a court sermon at paris / dr. steward ... steward, richard, 1593?-1651. [4], 30, [2] p. printed for william canning ..., london : 1687. reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng bible. -o.t. -kings, 2nd, xviii, 22. reformation -england -sermons. sermons, english -17th century. 2003-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-09 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-10 john latta sampled and proofread 2003-10 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-12 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the english case , exactly set down by hezekiah's reformation : in a court sermon at paris . by dr. steward , then dean of westminster , and of his majesties chappel . now published for the brief , but full vindication of the church of england from the romanists charge of schism . london : printed for william canning , at his shop in the temple-cloysters . m dc lxxx vii . a preface . some truths , as some excellencies , are so much beholding to their own light , that the shortest and most transient glimps can command our assent to the one , and give us a sufficient knowledge of the other . such is that of the inward worth of this author , who as he was many ways qualified for that piece of ancient character , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , eunap de alypio in vit . iambl . p. 29. ( nature and austerity afforded him so small a portion of body , and god's blessing on great faculties and equal diligence , so rich endowments of mind , that he approached to some nearness to be all soul ) so will he be most fully pourtrayed on the least table . any thing that was truly his , that past under his last hand in his maturer age , carries those signatures on it , whereby being dead he yet speaketh , articulately to those that knew him , and intelligibly , if they please to believe it , to those which knew him not . and this single sermon of his , which is here offered the reader , vndertakes to make good what hath been said . others have been willing to gather up all his reliques , which they can retrieve from any coast , that nothing which is so well qualified to receive , may want its due veneration ; and the publick is much obliged to this their diligence . but for the compleat image of this true son of the english church , his temper , and the reasons of his unmoved constancy to our persecuted mother , it will be competently drawn from this one appearance of him . conformable is the frame of the english reformation , so strongly guarded and secured inwardly from its own principles , antiquity and purity , of so straight and so clean , so plain and unintricate a making , so clear and chrystalline both in its spring and streams , that the simplest colours and the quickest hand will give us the justest prospect , the vitallest picture of it . this one parallel of hezekiah's taking away the high-places , &c. ( being here perspicuously brought home by an uniform concurrence of suitable circumstances to the english platform ) superceeding the readers solicitude , by supplying the want of any larger collection of discourses and vindications in the point of schism , or heresie , or non-communion with the catholick church . thus much was useful to he premised of the intrinsick value of this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to engage the indifferent readers survey , not to anticipate his judgment of it . but the more extrinsick circumstances of the place , and preacher , and auditory , and design of it , may deserve some farther reflection , in order to those which were not foreseen , nor consequently at all considered by the designer . the scene was paris , and if i mistake not , l' hostel de blinville there , the place whither the most illustrious , then prince of wales his highness , with his family , assembled for the divine offices of the lords day . the avow'd design , for the fortifying of all his english auditors , against the infusions , to which that clime ( not the remoter of rome or madrid ) might possibly subject them . the preacher , as great a prelatist as any whom unkind or jealous brethren have ever blasted under that title . his love and desire of the peace of the church so ardent , and his intercessions so constant for the return of it , that he was unwilling to be known to posterity by any other monument than this , that he daily pray'd for the peace of the church . 2 kings xviii . 22. but if ye say unto me , we trust in the lord our god : is not that he whose high places , and whose altars hezekiah hath taken away , and hath said to iudah and ierusalem , ye shall worship before this altar in ierusalem ? you may please to observe , that detraction sometimes mistakes her aim , and by a weak assault commends that good which it intends to villisie . thus this commander was here sent to rail down hezekiah , that his cruel tongue might make , as 't were , the preface unto his master's sword. but so fond was his attempt , that no studied parasite could have more flatter'd him . so that methinks this prince's worth ne're seems more fair , than in the mouth of rabshakeh . he 's there tax'd for demolishing the high places , and for the subversion of so many altars ; actions that were enjoyn'd him by moses : as if a man should accuse henoch of godliness , or abraham of his belief : who would not take such accusations as these for no less than artificial praises , as if some orator had laboured to commend these by an irony : h●noch a good man , but godly ; abraham holy no doubt , but that he was faithful ; and hezekiah a virtuous gallant prince , wer 't not he 's so religious ? i could in charity thus interpret these words of robshakeh , were he not a servant unto the king of ashur : but to speak truth , his commission makes it plain that he came to rail : only his more friendly malice objects goodness instead of sin , as if here detraction had been suborn'd to commend an enemy . you may thus far trust rabshakeh : for in my text he speaks exact truth , to spite the poor king of iudah . this you 'l easily find in the precedent parts of this chapter : and withal you 'l there see the hebrews in a lamentable estate , and yet indeed not so sad as ours . their fenced cities all taken by the arms of assyria , vers . 13. the treasures of the king , and of the temple too , all consumed , vers . 15. ierusalem it self , the city royal , besieg'd ( 't was not yet lost , 't was not so bad here ) , vers . 17. and now rabshakeh is sent to perswade the king into chains . he tells him , there was no hope in his own strength : for though assyria it self should be so kind as to lend him horses , yet ( so low was he brought ) he could scarce find so many troopers . no hope in egypt ; his old known confederates , they were a meer broken reed . nay , he dares add more , no hope at all in god neither : for though hezekiah had indeed but reformed the old church , yet in rabshakeh's sense he had set up a new one , he had forsaken god , and thrown down his altars , and remov'd his high glorious places : and upon this false supposition , what a rise is here taken by this fighting orator ? but if ye say unto me , we trust in the lord our god , is not this he ? &c. you see then 't is no strange thing at all to find a reformed church oppressed by arms , or by orators . but since my text here is a part of rabshakeh's speech , i shall leave the soldier , and only follow him in this part of his oration . where , for my more clear proceeding , i shall a little invert the order of the words , and shall beseech you to observe with me these particulars . first , you may behold the church of iudah corrupted , in these words , high places and altars , ( i. e. ) altars in high places : secondly , these corruptions reformed , whose high places , and whose altars hezekiah hath taken away , and hath said to iudah , &c. thirdly , the reformation censured ; but if ye say unto me , we trust in the lord our god , is not that he , &c. where it 's silently tax'd of novelty and of schism , indeed of no less than apostacy it self , and that for this cause they had no hope at all left in god. of these in their order . first , of the corruptions , [ high places and altars . ] were bare reason put to visit the church of iudah , her obliquities in the conceit of most men , might well perhaps pass for trifles . for so god have his due worship , a man would think , what great matter is 't where 't be done : the high places may be as serviceable as the court of the temple : and why may not his sacrifice be slain as well at hebron as ierusalem ? but israel must be judged by the laws ; and in points of so high coneernment must learn to do , not what she fancies , but what that text hath enjoyn'd ; take heed thou offer not , &c. deut. 12. at the 13. thus moses words were plain , that god hath enjoyn'd but one only altar , but only one for burnt sacrifice and lest the violation of that sacred law should seem some slight trivial thing , do but hear the tenor of those severe words in the 17th of levit. what man soever there be of the house of isroel , that kills an ox or a lamb , &c. and bringeth it not to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation , unto the altar that is before the tabernacle , to offer an offering unto the lord , before the tabernacle of the lord , blood shall be imputed unto that man ; he has shed blood , and that man shall be cut off from among his people , in the 4th vers . of that chapter . and in the same place , vers . 9. it 's again repeated , and extended too , that it may gain the more hold and reverence : whatsoever man there be of the house of israel , or of the strangers which sojourn among you , ( it must extend to iews and proselytes ) that offers a burnt offering , or sacrifice , and brings is not to the door of the tabernacle , even that man shall be cut off from among his people . a law sharp and terrible , fit indeed for mount sinai , and to be delivered in the voice of a thunder : who would not tremble at that offence , in the revenge whereof beasts shall be esteemed as men ; to kill a lamb , as to commit a murther : that man shall be cut off from among his people ; such devotions are no less than capital , nor will god be satisfied for such offences as these , till both people and priest become a sacrifice . if you ask the ground of this severe edict , i might well reply , that to yield a reason , doth not still befit the majesty of a law. yet iosephus tells us , that god therefore enjoined one only altar , that thence it might become the sacred emblem both of his churches unity , and his own . we have , saith he , but one altar , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . for our great god is but one , and our twelve tribes make but one people only . there are interpreters more home , that plainly tell us , this law was made for two reasons : first , to prevent schism ; and secondly , to prevent idolatry . first , schism : for had leave been given to this heady wrangling people , to do sacrifice in many several places , the diversity of rites such men would have soon fallen into , might ere long have brought them into more several factions , than at that time they had tribes . secondly , to prevent idolatry , a sin which for a long time seem'd natural to the iews ; and what so fit course to keep it off , as to admit of sacrifice , but only in that place where the high priest himself must look on , whom it so much concern'd both in point of conscience , and of interest too , to serve no god at all but the true one. and 't is worth observing with what height of zeal this strict law was kept whilst the hebrew church remained yet primitive . you may read the story in the 22d of ioshua . an altar was set up on the other side iordan by the reubenites , and the gadites , and the half tribe of manasses , their lot falling in those parts . news of this strange structure is soon brought to shiloh , where it found at once both the tabernacle , and the high priest : the people murmur , the army is straight drawn together ; so that the forces prepared against cananitish strangers , are now designed to defend moses law against more than two tribes of israel . but prudently first an embassy is designed , phineas is sent , and with him ten princes more to expostulate with these men , with what intent they had set up such an altar as this , which must needs lye so openly expos'd unto that great height of misconstruction . their answer you may find , verse 22. the lord god of gods , the lord god of gods he knows , and israel shall know , we have not built it in rebellion , to offer there any sacrifice , but only to be a witness betwixt us and you , that though divided by iordan , we have yet a share in the self same altar with you . for god forbid , say they , that we should rebel against the lord , and turn this day from following the lord , to build an altar for burnt-offering , or sacrifice , besides the altar of the lord our god which is before the tabernacle , in the 29th verse of that chapter . you see of so foul a nature was this offence then esteemed , that by more than nine tribes 't was held cause enough of a war , and that a civil war too , wherein iews were to fight with iews : and , but to take off the suspicion where no such crime was , it brought more than two tribes to the apology you have heard , so high , and so pathetical . and yet in succeeding times how constantly did they violate this most severe sacred law ? mountains , and woods , and plains , they would needs turn each place into a tabernacle . 't was then you would think the holy land without doubt , whose more frequent buildings were altars : but palestine indeed was then farthest from god , when she all thus seemed a temple ; and there was no greater sign of iudah's apostacy , than too many such signs of religion . nay , so largely spread was this grand corruption , that you 'l easily find there was scarce a man did avoid it . kings , and priests , and people ; some were agents , others spectators , and all bore a part in this forbidden sacrifice . thus solomon , and the whole people are tax'd , 1 kings 3. 2 , 3. and you need not doubt the priests were there too ; for be the place where it would , none by moses law could sacrifice but the priests . nay , not only solomon's , but the succeeding records of all their good kings still runs with this abatement ; he walkt in the ways of david his father , but the high places were not taken away , the people still offer'd sacrifice in the tops of the high places . it 's thus said of no less than seven : solomon , and asa , iehosaphat , iehoash , amaziah , azariah , and iothan . cardinal cajetan thinks this gross corruption was as general , as if the iews resolv'd to make null moses law by an hebrew custom to the contrary : and they had don 't without doubt , were our sins as well able to abrogate a law , as we well know they are to break it . this is plain , that the cardinal conceiv'd this abuse was grown into a custom national , which had there spread it self over all sorts and kind of persons : so that it found no open , no constant opposition at all from any body of men then considerable : had it , 't is clear enough , that customs thus oppos'd , can put humane laws in no danger . but i need not quote such authorities , the very word there us'd , where the text speaks of those kings , infers this truth strongly enough . but the high places were not taken away , the people still offer'd sacrifice in the high places . for that word , the people , when it 's put singly , and without opposition , implies , without doubt , the whole nation which it points at . thus when god commands moses ; speak now in the ears of the people : or in those words to pharaoh , let my people go : no doubt but that word did point at each several iew ; and though sometime it may well bear a sence less general , yet it then implies so much the far greater number , that commonly what remains , is neither a part eminent nor considerable . nay , to go no farther than my text , 't is plain enough from these words of rabshakeh ( who having taken so many cities , had now spent some good time in iewry , ) that this corruption was so universally spread , without any visible , any noted part to oppose it , that he conceived it the only true service of the god of israel : with what face else could he have told the iews , they had no hopes in their god , because their king had quite overturned his religion ? had there indeed been any number of note that had oppos'd this corruption , is 't at all probable it would have been conceal'd in these hebrew histories ? their pen men , we know , were all zealous enough to preserve the honour of iudea ; and yet in this particular we find a still total silence : and if any man will needs hold the contrary , they who call so much for catalogue of names , might in justice demand of this grand undertaker , to shew a list of those iews , who from age to age , whilst this corruption held , did not at all worship in high places . but you 'l demand perhaps , for how long a time was the hebrew church thus corrupted ? and indeed learned men differ here . some think this abuse began in the times of othoniel and ehud , judges : others plac'd it in the days of gideon ; admit either of these conjectures , and 't will be plain in chronology , that this forbidden worship held no less than six hundred years ; for all agree , hezekiah was the first who durst be so good , in those bad times , as to reform this corruption . but grant we do abate of this , since great clerks conceive , that from the time that the ark was parted from the tabernacle , which was no less than ninety years , from the days of eli the priest , when the ark went captive to philistia , until they both met again in the temple of solomon , 't was lawful to sacrifice at more than one only altar , because god had promised his more immediate presence as well before the ark , as before the tabernacle . for this reason i say ( though perhaps it hold not ) grant we abate of that time ; what i find established by common consent , will prove large enough to support all my whole intention . for no man dares deny , the text is so plain , in that catalogue of kings i related , that this corruption held from the days of solomon unto the reign of king hezekiah , and so no less than upon the point of three hundred years , as is plain , by the computation of arias montanus , and by the most exact in chronology . so then , three things are here very considerable ; first , the nature of this corruption , 't was in the censure of gods law no less than the sin of murther ; and in the censure of the iews , it deserved no less than the revenge of a plain civil war. secondly , the extent of this corruption ; it had spread it self throughout the whole face of iudea ; so that all that was at that time , god's visible church , was at once involv'd in this error . for i need not now speak of the ten tribes ; their high places were made waste , as is plain enough from the calves of dan , and of bethel . thirdly , the continuance of this corruption ; it held probably for six , but no man can deny , that it remained in the church of iewry upon the point of three centuries of years . hence 't will follow clearly ; the whole visible church may be so far corrupted , that though she forsake not god , and so run in non ecclesiam , to be no church at all , yet for a long time she may do publick worship in a most gross forbidden manner ; and this kind of abuse may be so dangerous , that upon its full discovery , both prince and people may be in conscience bound to embrace reformation . has god's church of the law been so foully blemished , and may that of the gosyel boast of a more constant beauty ? are the promises of this kind more large to us , than they were to that church wherein god's own son was born ? she in as plain terms was then call'd the spouse of god : i will betroath thee unto me for ever , saith the lord , hos. 2. his people and his flock : we are the people of his pasture , and the sheep of his hands , psal. 95. yea , his sons and his daughters ; thou shalt call me , my father , saith the lord , and shalt not depart from me , ( jer. 3. 19. ) true : the gates of hell shall not so prevail , but christ will still have a church ; and could the gates of hell prevail against her that was betrothed god's own spouse for ever ? that is , at least till christ came . no , they could not prevail to make her run in non ecclesiam , to become no true church at all ; and yet they might prevail to make her run in corruptam ecclesiam , into a church so much corrupt in her publick worship , that she might much need a reformation . and indeed , 't is a strange thing that any christian church which god has plac't among gentiles , should be so puffed up with a thought of her own strength , that she cannot fail in this particular . for 't is a truth clear in the text , that there 's no church of gentiles , but like a branch from the vine , it may be quite cut from christianity . and which is worth observing , st. paul has indited this self-same truth to the romans , in the 11th chap. verse 21. be not high minded , but fear ; for if god spar'd not the natural branches , take heed lest he spare not thee . and that this text implies the christian gentiles may be all cut off quite from christ , is here the conclusion of stapleton , and of the remists notes on that text , and of divers of their way . and to say the plain truth , that text i named can well bear no other comment , unless we 'l fondly affirm , that st. paul warns the gentiles to take heed of that mischance , which yet indeed could not possibly fall out . and then i beseech you observe , if that same church which boasts most of strength , may yet run in non ecclesiam , may become no church at all , she may much more run in corruptam ecclesiam , into a church so corrupt in her publick worship , that she may now need a reformation . i say , she may run into a corrupt church : and do but consider her new claim of infallibility , and you 'l easily yield , 't is a victory to prove , that rome may be conquered : to make this appear , she may err , is enough to convince her of no little part of her errors . if you ask me to shew more , i shall beg leave to reply , that ' t is an argument i affect not ; for i had much rather be employed in discourses of good life , than in these of controversies ; as holding that , in all kind of contentions , to be the most fit christian prayer , give peace in our time , o lord. yet since i here meet with such disputes and waverings ; in some i 'le think out of conscience ; in others , either out of vanity , to entertain their time , or that under pretence of searching christian truths , they may indeed drive a trade ; i must hence hold it a duty i owe unto most of those that now hear me ; yea , a duty i owe to that venerable church that baptiz'd us all , though our now poor afflicted mother , to keep the fruit of her own womb from thus trampling on her ; to keep them , as much as in me lies , from being gull'd and cheated from her unity , and withal from communicating too deeply in sin with those who have now cast her on the ground . if you ask then for the corruptions of the western church : suppose i instance but in one alone , she took the cup from the people : an abuse set up against as clear text as e're the high places were . drink ye all of this , saith our saviour , st. mat. 26. and again ( as they interpret that text ) , except ye eat the flesh of the son of man , and drink his blood , ye have no life in you , in that 6th chap. ●o st. iohn . mark [ ye have no life in you ] ; i know they defend this , and make no question at all , but some witty scribe might have been as well able to defend the iews ; who , for ought i know , might have said , as they do , that the hebrew church had power over the sacraments , ( and sacrifices are no more ) or by their new doctrine of concomitance , they might maintain much more probably , that their high places and altars were but only us'd as parts , as appurtenances , as concomitants of the tabernacle , than these , that shed-blood lies in the host. for shed-blood it must be ; this is my very blood which is shed for you : so that to tell us of blood in the body , of blood running in the veins , is indeed to shew forth the lord's life , but not , as he commands , to shew forth his death till he comes . nay , admit the doctrine of concomitance , ( which yet in this point is but a meer perfect fiction ) yet christ enjoyns , drink ye all of this . and i appeal to your own sences themselves , whether to eat christ's blood , be to drink it . their publick service in an unknown tongue , is it not as clearly against the doctrine of st. paul , 1 cor. 14. how , saith he , shall the unlearned say amen at thy giving of thanks , seeing he understands not what thou say'st ? in the 16th verse of that chapter . two things you see the apostle there takes for granted ; first , that the unlearned ought to say amen at god's publick service : secondly , they cannot joyn that consent of theirs , but to those words they understand . i might instance in many more particulars ; as in the adoration of images , of saints , of the eucharist , in the doctrine of purgatory , and those other articles of the new creed of trent ; whereof some are of dangerous practise ; nay , ( as learned men amongst themselves have confess'd , gerson , espensaeus , and many others ) they are of practice , among the vulgar at least ( some doubt not to add , and among the learned too ) no less than idololatrical . others again are made articles of faith , which yet for ought appears either in the text , or in antiquity , are indeed not so much as probable opinions : so that to say truth , there are store of men who have not ignorance enough to believe such articles . and yet the western church has forced many souls into the faith of this new creed , both by the prison and the stake : and in this tyranny hath shewed her self far worse than e're old iudah did . for though we read of no visible conspicuous number that did avoid the high places , yet in charity we may think there were some few that did so , and yet in this regard we read not so much as one either punished , or disgraced by an hebrew magistrate . 't is true then , that god's church , yea , his christian church , may be stained with some gross foul corruptions . but what ? because she may thus err , shall each giddy brain be allow'd to controul , or each private hand to reform her ? admit this disorder once , and let a church be indeed most apostolick , yet you may be assured she shall ne're want reformers , if she have either sons to be employ'd in rebellion , or lands to be enjoyed by sacriledge . a corah then will dare to tell moses to his face , that all the congregation is holy , as holy as himself , or the best employ'd in the tabernacle ; all kings and priests then ; and all this stir is rais'd , not so much that he dislikes the order of aaron , but that indeed he likes his revenue . and therefore in my text there 's care had of this . a reformation follows ; but you 'l find it brought in by no less than by the power royal , whose high places , and whose altars hezekiah hath taken away , and hath said to iudah , &c. this part affords varieties ; and i must therefore divide it . here 's then first the prime agent in this reformation i nam'd , hezekiah the king. secondly , the extent of the reformation , 't was only brought into his own territories , iudah and ierusalem . thirdly , the manner how he setled it ; 't was done as well by teaching truth , as by reforming corruptions : he took away the high places , and he said , ye shall worship before this altar at ierusalem . first , of the prime agent , hezekiah the king. but to remove these abuses here , did not this prince first abuse himself , to fit his hands for this work ? did hezekiah the king make his person no less than plain head of the church of iudah ? were some modern tongues to have supplied rabshakeh's place , this is the theam , and this is the phrase they 'd have chosen . and yet i assure my self this pious prince would have stood to 't , that he was supreme governour , in all causes , and over all persons ; so that upon provocation given , he could no doubt have depos'd the high priest , as solomon once did abiathar . but yet ( i beseech you observe ) 't is one thing to burn incense , anoaher to enjoin that this service be still duly done : one thing to offer sacrifice , another to command that no sacrifice be offer'd , but on that one altar at ierusalem ; the first of these belonged unto aaron's sons , the other to the heirs of david . to bar hezekiah this power in the church , were to impair his royalties , and to deny that to the crown of iudah which all princes have still challenged ; yea , those without the church , the kings of nineveh , and monarchs of assyria ; their swords were ecclesiastical . thus that king proclaims a religious fast , ion. 3. and nebuchad ▪ dan. 3. 29. thus from the beginning christian princes have still done the like , and have let us see by their laws , that in point of coercive power they still kept the church-supremacy , as clearly appears in the theodosian code , and in that of iustinian in the capitulars of charles the great , and such other collections . iustinian , in an ecclesiastical novel , comes fully home in this point ; iubemus beatissimos archiepiscopos & patriarchas , ( i. ) senioris romae , & constatinopoleos novae romae ; we command , saith he , ( and as some copies have it under the pain of deposition too ) the most blessed archbishop , and patriarchs ( i. ) of old rome , and of constantinople , then call'd new rome , &c. if that emperor might command all the patriarchs themselves , and that in a business ecclesiastical too , where then lay the church-supremacy ? and these novels of his were in so high esteem with st. gregory the great , that 't is plain in his epistles , he decides church-causes by them , and that with an ita decrevit dominus noster imperator ; our lord the emperor hath thus rul'd it in his laws . besides , most plain it is , that the old hebrew kings held the work in my text to belong to them as in chief . and this opinion god himself confirm'd ; for throughout their whole story you 'l find , that kings only are check'd when the church was corrupt , and they only prais'd when she mended . in those scriptures we read but of three noted reformations , and they were all done by their kings . by king asa , by this king in my text , and the last by king iosiah . those high places alone were pulled down by asa which were set up to the worship of a false god. hezekiah goes farther , and destroys them too , which were set up for the false worship , though of the true only deity . iosiah goes on , and removes the groves , and such devices as those which solomon , and other kings , having of old set up , they were again renew'd in the wicked reign of manasseh . but grant a christian church to be indeed corrupt , or that really men think it is so , is 't not allowed by christ's law , either for subjects , or others , against the will of the king , into whose care she 's put , by force of arms , to constrain , or beat her to a purity ? a case of conscience you 'l find , whereby to resolve this , decided by our saviour's own mouth , in the 9th chap. of st. luke ; where entring , saith the text , into a village of samaria , the inhabitants were so far from receiving the doctrine he intended to preach , that indeed they endur'd not his person . hence iames and iohn , the two sons of thunder , begin straight to shew their temper ; what! not receive christ , nor the christian faith ! master , shall we command fire from heaven ? for if perswasion will not draw men unto the gospel thou bring'st , it must be done by fire , or by sword. our saviour replies , ye know not of what spirit ye are : ye understand not at all what thing 't is to be a christian. i came not to destroy mens lives , but to save them ; i came not to plant a religion in blood ; no , i leave that to turks , and to mahomet : had that been my intent , you iames and iohn had been no apostles for me : i would then have made choice of commanders from an army , not of fisher-men from their nets . and yet in these times have not we the like sons of thunder ? what i will they not receive the new holy discipline , the very scepter of christ , the throne of his mediatorship ( and indeed they could do little , if they knew not how to cloath their new fancies in good words ) , lord , shall we command fire from heaven ? or if you will , fire from hell ? shall we raise a rebellion ? shall we by a covenant swear christ into his throne , or forswear the king out of his ? what think ye will be replied to these , and the like kind of men , but ye know not of what spirit ye are ? it 's not lawful by blood to bring in christian faith ; and is it lawful by blood to bring in that thing which they of late call a christian government ? it 's not lawful to plant a church by such force ; and is it lawful thus to reform it ? they who think it is , truly for my part , i neither at all know of what spirit they are , no , nor of what reason neither ; this i well know , of what spirit they are not ; they are of no spirit evangelical . so then , to attempt to reform a church in despite of the prince whom god has now placed her under , is to invade royal power , and can be indeed called but a more zealous kind of rebellion ; since to cure a church by such drenches as these , is , no doubt , at the same time to give poyson to a kingdom : and 't was therefore decreed in that most ancient council of eliberis ( twenty years before that of nice , ) that if in hatred to idolatry it self , a private man would needs pull down images , he should by no means be esteemed a martyr , if he lost his life in that service . and the fathers there give their reason , because we have no example for this either from prophets or apostles . no , 't was their part to preach down high places , or idols , but they well knew 't was the duty of kings , of supreme powers to remove them : and he can be no martyr for the first table of the law , who is in the same deed a transgressor of the second : nor will god at all thank him as a reformer of his church , who in the self-same act is no less than a plain traitor to his deputy . so that as for subjects to take up arms against their kings , is by the doctrine of st. peter and st. paul , in all cases damnable : so specially to do this in point of our religion , which so much commends and blesseth patience , and sufferings , and martyrdom , either upon pretence to plant it where it now is not , or to reform it where it has been planted , is of all other kinds of contentions or wars , the most turkishly antichristian . and therefore to avoid quarrels and blood , 't was hezekiah the king who here reforms the church of iudea ; but yet , durst he adventure alone upon an attempt so sacred and so great ? no , you 'l easily find in the circumstances of the text , that he had both a council , and withal a rule to direct him ; for if you read the 30 , and the 31 , of the 2d of chron. you 'l see this reformation was made in the time of a most solemn passover , where the priests and levites , the princes and the people met ; and when , saith the text , chap. 30. ver . 30. hezekiah had spoke comfortable words to all the levites that taught the good knowledg of the lord. yea , iosephus seems to put into this kings mouth a synodical oration in the ninth of his antiquities . i say , when upon the kings encouragement the levites had once taught that good knowledg , then upon such counsel , such direction as this , then came the reformation ; for so moses was plain in the blessing he gave upon the whole tribe of levi : they shall teach iacob thy judgments , and israel thy law , deut. 33. at the 10. and as he had a council , so 't is as plain by the self-same words he had a rule too to go by , 't was the good knowledg of the lord , which is in moses phrase his iudgments and his law : and lest he should perhaps err in the interpretation of that sacred text , he had the help of the best comment too , as you but now heard from the 22d of ioshua , 't was the sense and practice of the hebrew church , whilst she was yet primitive . that the church of england was reformed by the power royal , by a power that made use of the like counsel , and like rule ▪ is a truth i think none here doubts of ; if any do , 't will be soon clear'd both from our stories and our laws ; that first our liturgy which reform'd gods publick service , was compos'd by bishops and others of great knowledg in antiquity , many whereof attained the honour of martyrdom : and then the book of our articles which reformed the theological tenets , the common doctrines of our church , were compiled by synods , by convocations , by the two solemn provincial councils of london , or if you will , the two national , because both our provinces concurr'd in the same truth , in the years 52 and 62. and that our rule was the same they here used in iewry , gods word interpreted by the sense and practice of the ancient church , appears in the next synod after , where 't is decreed in plain words , that whosoever undertakes to teach any truth as necessary to salvation , which he is not able to make good by text , as 't was understood by the fathers , and the ancient church , shall be expos'd to ecclesiastical censure , and canonical correction . and we cannot think our church would enjoyn a rule to her sons , which yet she had not kept her self . in this point then we are hand in hand with iudah ; the same power , the same council , the same rule . i go to the next following , the extent of the reformation : 't was only set up in his own territories , iudah and ierusalem . indeed hezekiah wrote letters , and sent to the remains of the ten tribes , to joyn in this great action with him ; but they , for the most part , contemn'd his message , and slighted his attempt , 2 chron. 30. the king did exceeding well : for 't was to be much wished , that in a design so highly pious as this , all israel would have been unanimous : but yet if ephraim , and others , will refuse to hear , iudah must mend alone . how generally a reformation was desir'd in these parts of christendom , by men of the choicest note , both for learning and piety , 't were no hard task at all to shew you . nay , in the very council of trent , ten several kingdoms and states desir'd the cup for the people , both by their ambassadors , and their prelates : many press'd for a redress of service in an unknown tongue ; many for many other particulars : all were refus'd , and the reason plain ; order was there taken ( you may guess by whom ) , that there were more italian prelates , sometimes by twenty , sometimes by an hundred , than there were of all the world besides ; so that in effect all this christendom would have reformed her self , had not italy oppos'd it . nor can that be call'd a general council , ( 't was but patriarchal at the largest ) since the bishops of the east , and other great churches , were not there , no , nor those three long since so most famous patriarchs of constantinople , and alexandria , and antioch , who though they may be deceiv'd in that tenet of the procession of the holy ghost , yet whatever error they are in , in that point , they are in no heresie , as is confess'd by p. lombard himself , and has been oft made unanswerably good , by men as well vers'd in controversal points , as any christendom has bred . but 't is the artifice of the western church , to perswade the world , that those ancient parts are now fallen from the church , that so within the curtains of their own patriarchate she may have general councils , and an universal church ; and so though she now make not near a third part of the christian world , yet with the donatist , she dares profess her self the only catholick church , and so damns all mankind without her . neither yet do i deny , nay , i affirm it rather , that a true general council could best prescribe remedies unto so large a disease ; but to convoke that , was extreamly difficult , and we are all sure 't was not done . for what christian princes can now give safe conduct to the bishops and patriarchs of those remoter parts of the church ? so then , if neither a true general council , nor free patriarchal , could be had , were 't not strange imprudence to refuse a cure , because we could not use the best physicians ? in this case no doubt it unquestionably holds , what gerson , the learned chancellor of paris , has spoken out without limitation , and he ( as bell. affirms ) was , vir doctus & pius ; he was a learned and a good man too ; and you shall hear that good mans words ; nolo tamen dicere , &c. i will not say , faith he , but the church may be reformed by parts ; yea , this is necessary , and to effect it provincial councils may suffice , and in some things diocesan : 't is in his tract . de gen. con. unius obed . and indeed particular churches have gone farther in this kind than our dear mother e're dream'd of . for four things there are chiefly of synodical cognizance , articles of faith , forms of divine worship , theological conclusions for the peace of each church , and the points of ceremony . only these three last were the subject of our reformation , we still adhering unto the three creeds , which are the faith of the church catholick . but whence came filioque in two of these three creeds , if not in a provincial synod ? in a general , no man thinks it did : and some learned men ascribe that addition of faith to the eighth synod of toledo . and if a provincial of spain may thus decide points of faith , i understand not why a national of england may not be heard in far less matters . nay , in the fourth of toledo 't was challeng'd by the fathers , as the proper right of a national synod , that it might decide points of faith , as clearly appears in the 3. can. of that council . you see then the parallel still holds ; hezekiah reform'd but his two tribes , and our english princes but their own territories . i come to the last of this second general . the manner of the reformation ; he did as well teach the truth , as reform the corruptions : he took away the high places , and he said , ye shall , &c. ye shall worship before one altar ; so his words are set down , 2 chron. 32. at the 12th . he did not only remove their errors , as if that past triumph might suffice them ; but for the future he enjoin'd the people to employ their devotion according to god's sacred law. and did not we so too ? witness our catechisms , and our liturgy , our many forms of devotion to god , and our many enlargements of those moral duties we owe to the several ranks of our neighbours . 't is then but a calumny , and a fond one too , to call our faith a negative religion , as if to believe that some men are erroneous , were the sole article of all our churches creed . truth is , we may thank them for it , that 't is with us as with iudah ; our profession must needs now contain some negatives : high places are not allowable , maim'd sacraments must not be suffered , nor images ador'd ; but yet they may soon see our positive tracts are more large than our polemicks , and that we have taken more pains to make men good , than to make them learned or judicious . i heartily wish i could in this regard as well defend some sons of our church , as i am sure i can our church it self . for many mens ill carriage seem to divide the two clauses here , which are so nearly join'd in my text. they , like well to remove high places and altars , in this regard , none shall shew more zeal than they ; nay , under pretences of such corruptions as these , if you please , remove church and all . but when we once come to this , ye shall worship before one altar ; ye shall bow down , ye shall bend your selves ( for so the word here imports ) , ye shall be devout , and religious ; and this not only in your inmost thoughts , but in your outward forms of deportment ; they like no such reformation ; 't is enough to save them , that they have learned to hate rome , and that they are no superstitious persons . let not such men deceive themselves . 't will one day rise up in judgment , 't will plead against them , and severely too , that they have been bred members of such a reform'd church , and yet neither in their devotions , nor their lives themselves , have they shew'd the least reformation : what good will it do these to have been so christianly allow'd the blessed cup in the sacrament , when yet either they come not at all , or come in their sins to receive it ? what will it avail thee to have god's service perform'd in a language thou understand'st , when either very seldom thou hearest it read , or dost not heed at all , though thou hear it ? how will that poor man , whom perhaps thou now pitiest , plead against thee at that last bar of christ's judgment ? i indeed came seldom , and with small devotion to that sacrament , because i was there robb'd of that sacred cup which i know thou thy self had'st left me . i seldom came to god's publick service ; and being there , i fix'd my mind on some secular lusts , because i could not understand it : and in punishment shall i be equall'd to him who was allowed the cup , and in divine service might have understood both all hymns and prayers ? believe it , the reformation was made not to boast of , but to use : and he who shall declare , that he likes the thing , and yet is no whit the better for it , runs at the best but into a kind of covetousness , ( a sin st. paul call'd idolatry ) for , with such miserable churls , he loves indeed to have the power of this great wealth , and yet he doth ne're mean to use it . but we ought to know , that when hezekiah has once removed these high places here , 't is to this great end especially , that thenceforth we should be the more carefully devout before that allowed altar at ierusalem : and yet when we have done this , we must look for scorns and reproaches ; for if iudah , or any child of hers , be grown good , you may surely expect there will be straight work for rabshakeh , as you 'l see in my last part , the reformation censur'd , it 's tax'd of novelty , and schism , and the like . but if ye say , we trust in the lord our god , is not that he , &c. 't was in st. hierom's time , an hebrew traditon , that this rabshakeh was born a iew ; so that father upon the 36th of esay . indeed so it often falls out , that iudah has no man a more bitter enemy , than when one of the circumcision becomes a fugitive . nor has our mother-church been by any more violently oppos'd , than by the hands who have left her , by the hands of those sicklemen , whose persons she did once baptize . but leave the man , come to his words ; if ye say unto me , we trust in the lord , &c. you see rabshakeh himself was grown so much a divine , as to aver openly , that he who puts his hand to overturn that religion he professes ; yea , that puts his hand to overturn it too at the same time while he likes it , pretend what he will , he trusts not in god , he trusts perhaps in the syrians , or in egypt . he goes on , is not this he whose altars , &c. he , iudah's old god ; and therefore 't was no less than plain novelty to leave him : these high places and altars , as he conceiv'd , were his too : and to leave off to communicate in that service they once us'd , what can this be less than a schism ? and have not we been long since ; nay , are we not reproached even unto this day with the very self-same imputations ? they have set up a new church ; they are wicked schismaticks : so that should the most modest man entertain that dream of pythagoras , of the transmigration of souls from one body to another , he would not stick at all to affirm , that he who was once rabshakeh , was since some tart pen-man of this latter century . i 'le speak first of that tax , the reproach of novelty : and i beseech you mark how rabshakeh has here fram'd his words . he strives to lay all upon this present king ; hezekiah took away , and hezekiah said ; no mention that this fact was enjoyn'd by moses ; aud practis'd too by the hebrew church , whilst she was the primitive . thus let but rabshakeh once tell the tale , and a church larely reform'd shall indeed appear to be but a late founded church . ignorance may perhaps excuse this commander here in my text ; but some learned men in our times are more extreamly to blame : for you 'l soon see how fond are their main exceptions , do but suppose their words put into the mouth of rabshakeh , when as here in my text , at ierusalem he be-spake the besieg'd men upon the wall ; hear , o ye iews , will your aged synagogue at length turn novelist ? your fathers worshipp'd in these high mountains ; but ye now say , ierusalem's the place ; where was the church before hezekiah ? was 't no where , or invisible ? were your predecessors blinded with one joint consent ? or are ye only become more clear of sight , what ! than solomon the wise , or asa the religious ? does your god sometime forsake his church , or will for hundreds of years suffer it to be so constantly obscur'd ? let not this pure prince deceive you still with these fond upstart toys ; for 't is your iudah's greatest fame that she 's thought very ancient . what iew , i wonder , could this speech move , unless 't were to laughter ? where was their church before hezekiah ? in the same place , and among the same people , and 't was still the very self-same church : i say , the same in truth of essence ( for so 's a thief a true man ) but not in condition or in quality : for formerly it was corrupt , now reform'd by the law of moses ; formerly it had heen dangerously diseas'd , but 't was now cured by hezekiah . let them ask naaman too , where was he before elisha had heal'd him ? would he not divide the question , he was long before , but he was withal leprous : and palestine had still a church , but god knows 't was a corrupt one . so then he who calls a reform'd church new , because 't is newly reform'd , might as well call naaman a child too , because after his cure the text plainly says his flesh came again like a child's . but in earnest , is our age to be accounted from our recovery ? or is a man no older than his health ? by this philosophy they might perswade the leper , that he bore office in the syrian court before he was a year old. let therefore the modern rabshakeh's cease to upbraid us with such known petty cavils , our church was no more invisible than that of iudah , and might as well be before luther was , as theirs before hezekiah . secondly , they tax us of schism ; which is questionless a great sin , being in frequent texts very sharply condemn'd in scripture . 't is then committed when there is a scissure , a breach , an uncharitable division made , betwixt those men especially , which in point of religion were once joyn'd aud linkt together . so that were this rupture is , there is sin without doubt ; all the question is , on which side the crime must lie ; sometimes it may lie on both , but it ever lies on him that gives just cause of division , not ever on him that divides . abraham did divide from his idolatrous kindred , and so did st. paul from his old friends the iews . the orthodox christians were forc'd to do the like when arrianism did prevail : and yet in the opinon of these rabshakehs themselves , neither abraham , not st. paul , nor those old christians were schismatical . thus when hezekiah once had reform'd the church of iudea , no man can think a conscientious iew would at all communicate in the service of these high places ; he did divide from it without doubt , although before , either by custom or ignorance , or the like , he did it frequently without scruple . and yet might such a iew be held guilty of schism ? no more sure than hezekiah , who both did and enjoyn'd the like ▪ and yet the holy ghost in this history here does in express terms commend him ; in the fourth verse of this chapter he commends him as much for reforming the church as he does for being like david . so that to tax him , were indeed to affirm , that the spirit of god commends a schismatick himself for the very act of his schism . thus then they are not still they who divide , but they who give or continue the just cause of division , who are guilty of that sin we speak of . but yet since in church-controversies 't is not so easie to judg what makes that just cause i nam'd , and that no wise man can think it fit it should be left to each private judgment : since in such divisions as these , men are extreamly apt to forget all bonds of peace , and for possession sometimes of a little suppos'd truth , quit indeed their whole estate of charity : therefore the ancients do oft define schism by these two grand notes or characters . first , when men make divisions in point of religion against the consent of their lawful pastors : 't is so defined by st. cyprian , and st. ierom , and others . secondly , when men cast out of the church catholick , and so damn to hell all that hold not their opinions . and this st. austin doth oft times call schism in the donatists . and now take schism in what sense , under what note you please , our mother church is guiltless of that imputation . first take it for a division in gods publick service ; she did no more in that point than what was here done by hezekiah : since she had as clear text , and so as just cause , to give the cup to the people ; to turn their devotions into a language they understood , as this king here had , to bring the iews from their old mass in high places , unto that one altar at ierusalem . nay the cause we had , was more just than that of iudah : because the corruptions of the western church were all backt by tyranny , men were constrain'd into errors ; when yet we read not at all that if a pious iew would have kept himself unto that one altar at ierusalem , he was either checkt by their kings , or opprest by their priests , or condemn'd to tophet by their sanhedrim . secondly , take schism for an opposition made against our lawful pastors : and our church you 'l find was not guilty in this matter neither . for at that time when the reformation was made , we were under our own synods only , and with what readiness they joyn'd in this grand work , you have heard in my second general . 't is true , that for some hundreds of years we had been under a known foreign power ( but yet such a power as came not amongst us but by the breach of a great general council , as is clear from the last canon of the first of ephesus ) a power , i say , patriarchal , and so meerly of ecclesiastical right , not of divine institution . a power which in the ancient church had been set up by emperors , as that of iustiniana prima by iustinian in his 11th novel : nay 't was openly maintained in the great council of chalcedon , that all the patriarchs had gain'd their power meerly by custom , and by imperial countenance : so that 't is a power that may be taken away , without all doubt taken away , otherwise gerson the wise chancellor of paris would not have written in france , de au●eribilitate papae . england went f●rther , and did indeed remove that , which others did but say was removable : but removed it was before the reformation ; that removed it not , as men well know that know our laws ; and so we were left but under our own synods only ; to that now besides a general council which we are willing to hear , we can resist no lawful pastors but our own . lastly , take schism for that monstrous height of uncharitableness , when with the donatists those men who are but a part of the church , dare call themselves the church catholick , and so dare damn all the rest of mankind , who refuse to imbrace their opinions ; i could name you those who are guilty of this , but i am sure our dear mother is not , who has been so mild to those that have most highly oppos'd her , that besides the reproaches of novelty and schism , you all well know she hath been long reproached for her charity . and yet when st. cyprian being primate of carthage , did in his full synod against the sense of the whole church set up plain rebaptization , st. austin defends him from the tax of schism , only because he began that provincial council with this charitable clause , nemineni damnantes , nec a jure communionis quempiam , si diversum senserit , removentes , we decree this , saith he , but yet we damn no man , nor do we bar any from the communion of africk though he think the quite contrary . and how punctually have we observed this rule of good old st. cyprian ? in these late church-controversies , opinions indeed , and actions we condemn ( and so did that father too ) but yet we damn no mans person . for 't is he tenor of god laws , thou shalt love thy neighbour , his person , as thy self ; but 't is not said , thou shalt love his deeds or opinions . for though what men act or opine may be in it self damnable , yet ( where they are not wilfully perverse ) customary breeding joyn'd with ignorance or the like , may excuse the men from damnation . and how far we have been , in such differences as these , from debatring any man or communion , yea , even those that heretofore did oppose , and now perhaps do disdain us , i appeal to the first twelve years of queen elizabeth , where men apparently known to have kept their old opinions , were not only received into the service of our church , but were admitted to the eucharist it self , the very highest act of communion . and now i have gone through my text , and shall only add , that i scarce know any scruple , any query they make , that may not well be solv'd from this parallel . they ask why their opinions should be condemn'd for errors , if we know not the precise time when they rose ? yes , the high places here were gross errors , and yet the most learned dare not say , whether they rose in the time of the iudges , or in the days of king solomon . they ask whether our forefathers were damn'd , who , we grant , dyed in their religion ? and we demand , whether for so many hundred years were all the iews damn'd that did worship god in high places ? i think they were not , if they liv'd pious lives , and kept themselves from all wilful ignorance . for then , tho the errors of both churches , the hebrew and the christian too , were in themselves no less than damnable ; yet by ignorance , or by the like apology with this , tho they made no express repentance for a sin they knew not ; yet by the ordinary dispensation of divine grace , the men , we think , escap'd damnation . but i have one query more , a case of conscience to leave with you . suppose a jew that had been rightly bred in the reformation of king hezekiah , should at length fall back to do sacrifice in the high places , upon confidence that his forefathers might well be saved in that service , whether were not this man indeed guilty of murther , ( lev. 17. 4. ) and so not in state of salvation , unless by express repentance he turn back to god , for this very apostacy ? the resolution is easy , it scarce needs levi's help : and i beseech you let it be thought on , and then i hope , to turn apostate from a true reformed church will be held no slight trivial matter . all this is to let you see the great likeness betwixt the two churches i have nam'd , iudah and england , both , were reform'd , by a power , by a council and rule most approvable , without schism , without rebellion ; in both the ceremonies remain'd decent , the service of god dayly , and honourable , and which is more than this , tho they both remov'd the forbidden altars , yet both kept the old priesthood too . and since god in so clear text did approve the one , why should any man ever doubt the other ? and yet iudah in my text was almost eaten out by the sword : alas , we are in this but too like her : although perhaps we are more like this poor church , when she was yet more miserable , when she mixed her tears with the sad tenor of those words : ps. 13. 7. by the waters of babylon we sat down and wept , when we remembred thee , o sion . for let me assure you , 't was a distressed reform'd church they there remembred , and no marvel then if that memorial were in tears : either in tears of repentance , that their own foul sins had brought on this great desolation : or else in tears of longing to see that famous church once restor'd , to see god again serv'd in the beauty of holiness , that their ravished souls might once more ascend in prayers and hymns , or hallelujahs , in one of the old songs of sion . let us but sow in such tears as these , and i should certainly hope we should e're long reap in joy ; in joy temporal , to see our king and our selves in peace , and in joy spiritual , to see that church of god re-established which god , &c. finis . the reformation justify'd in a sermon preached at guild-hall chappel septemb. 21, 1673, before the lord major and aldermen, &c. / by edw. stillingfleet ... stillingfleet, edward, 1635-1699. 1674 approx. 72 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 29 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-08 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a61590 wing s5626 estc r14334 13142423 ocm 13142423 97985 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a61590) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 97985) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 752:2) the reformation justify'd in a sermon preached at guild-hall chappel septemb. 21, 1673, before the lord major and aldermen, &c. / by edw. stillingfleet ... stillingfleet, edward, 1635-1699. [2], 51 p. printed by robert white for henry mortlock ..., london : 1674. marginal notes. reproduction of original in duke university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng reformation -sermons. sermons, english -17th century. 2004-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-03 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-04 jonathan blaney sampled and proofread 2004-04 jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the reformation justify'd : in a sermon preached at guild-hall chappel septemb. 21. 1673. before the lord major and aldermen , &c. by edw. stillingfleet , d. d. chaplain in ordinary to his majesty . london , printed , by robert white , for henry mortlock , and are to be sold at the white hart in westminster hall , and at the phoenix in st. pauls church-yard . 1674. hanson major . cur. special . tent . in festo s. michaelis archang . 1673. annoque regis caroli secundi angliae , &c. xxv . it is ordered by this court , that d r. stillingfleet be earnestly desired to print his sermon lately preached at the guild-hall chappel before the lord major and aldermen of this city . wagstaffe . acts xxiv . 14. but this i confess unto thee , that after the way which they call heresie , so worship i the god of my fathers , believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets . in the beginning of this chapter we find st. paul brought to his tryal before felix the roman governour , wherein ( if we only except the unfitness of the judge ) all other things concurred , which could make such an action considerable , viz. the greatness of the cause , the quality of the persons , and the skill which was shewed in the management of it . the cause was not common and ordinary , such as were wont to be tryed before the governours of provinces , but of an unusual and publick nature ; not a question of words and names , as gallio thought it , but of a matter of the highest importance to the world : which being managed by st. paul , with that zeal and industry , which was agreeable to it , gave occasion to his malicious countreymen to accuse him before the roman governour , as one guilty of faction and sedition . under this colour , they hoped easily to gain the governours good will to their design ; being a person that more regarded the quiet of his province , than all the concernments of truth and religion . but that this design might be carried on with the greater pomp and shew of justice and piety , they do not commit the care of it to the rage of the people , or some furious zealots ; but the high priest and some members of the sanhedrin go down on purpose from hierusalem to caesarea , and carry with them one of their most eloquent advocates called tertullus to manage the accusation against paul. who was no sooner called forth , but the orator begins to shew his art , by a flattering insinuation , which is most apt to prevail with men of mean and corrupt minds ; seeing that by thee , saith he , we enjoy great quietness , and that very worthy deeds are done unto this nation by thy providence ; we accept it alwayes and in all places , most noble felix , with all thankfulness : having thus prepared his judge , he presently falls upon the matter , and charges st. paul with being a pestilent and seditious person , a disturber of his nation in all parts , a prophaner of the temple ; but the main point of all , and in which the rest were comprehended , was , that he was a ringleader of the sect of the nazarenes . ( so the christians were then called among the jews , from our saviour's abode in the town of nazareth . ) but although the writer of this history gives us only the short heads of his accusation ; yet we may easily suppose by st. pauls answer , that he insisted more largely on this , than on any of the rest : representing to felix , that when the jewish church had been at first established by god himself under laws of his own making , when he had so settled the several orders and degrees of men among them , that the priests lips were to preserve knowledge , and the law to be sought at their mouths ; when under this government , their religion had been preserved for many hundreds of years , and after many revolutions they enjoyed one common and publick worship among them , though there were several distinct orders of religious men ( such as the pharisees and essens ) yet all agreed in the same divine worship ; but now at last to their great regret and horror appears one jesus of nazareth , a person of obscure parentage and mean education , who pretended to discover many corruptions in the doctrine and practices of our best men ; and without any authority from the high priest or sanhedrin he gathered disciples , and drew multitudes of people after him ; till at last the wisdom of our governours thought it fit to take him off , and make him an example for reformers ; notwithstanding this , his bold and forward disciples after his death carried on the same design , pretending that the time of reformation was come ; and accordingly have formed themselves into a sect , vigorous and active , of high pretences , and dangerous designs , which if it continues and increases can end in nothing short of the ruine of our antient jewish catholick church ; which hath had so constant and visible a succession in all ages ; that hath had so many martyrs and confessors in it ; so many devout and religious persons as the pharisees are ; so excellent an order and government , so much unity and peace before this new sect of nazarenes arose in opposition to that authority with which god had invested the high priest and rulers of the people . and among all the promoters of this new sect , there is none more factious and busie than this paul whom we here accuse ; and whom some of our nation found in the temple profaning of it , and there we would presently out of meer zeal to our religion have taken and destroyed ; but he was violently rescued out of our hands , and sent hither to be tryed ; and these things , which i have spoken , is the sense of all those who are come down as witnesses ; for so we read , v. 9. and the jews also assented and said , that these things were so . st. paul being thus accused , and having leave given him to answer for himself , was so far from being daunted by the greatness of his enemies , or the vehemency of their accusation , that he tells the governour , that he did with all cheerfulness undertake his defence : and there being two parts of his accusation , 1. his tumultuous and profane carriage in the temple ; this he utterly denies , v. 11 , 12 , 13. and plainly tells them , they can never prove it against him . 2. but as to the other and main part of the charge , his being a ringleader of the sect of the nazarenes ; although he would not , out of his great modesty , take upon himself to be one of the heads or chiefs among them , yet as to the owning of that way , notwithstanding all the imputations they had cast upon it , he doth it with the greatest freedome and courage in the presence of his judge and accusers ; and not only so , but defends himself therein , that he had done nothing contrary to the laws of god , or the most antient religion of his countrey : all which particulars are contained in the words of the text ; but this i confess unto thee , that after the way which they call heresie , so worship i the god of my fathers , believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets . wherein we have these three things considerable . 1. the imputation which christianity suffered under in its first appearance : after the way , which they call heresie . 2. the way taken by st. paul to remove this false imputation ; viz. by appeal to scripture and antiquity ; so worship i the god of my fathers , believing all things that are written in the law and the prophets . 3. the courage of st. paul in so freely owning his religion in the presence of his greatest enemies , and when they were in hopes to destroy him for it : this i confess unto thee , that after the way , &c. 1. i begin with the false imputation which christianity suffered under at its first appearance ; after the way which is called heresie ; the same word which is translated sect , v. 5. and although the word be indifferent in it self , yet where it is taken for a combination of men together against an established religion and lawful authority ( as it was by the jews when they charged the christians under this name ) then it implies in it a twofold accusation : 1. of novelty and singularity . 2. of faction and sedition . 1 of novelty . a sect of heresie in this sense implies in it , mens setting up with a new doctrine which was not heard of before ; and making that thefoundation of a new society separate and distinct from the established church , and consequently they must charge the church they are divided from with errors and corruptions , or they make themselves guilty of schism , i. e. unnecessary separation . now upon these two grounds the jews laid the imputation of a new sect upon the nazarenes or christians , 1. because they could not shew a visible succession in all ages : 2. because they could not prove the jewish church to be guilty of such errors and corruptions as to need a reformation . 1. they could not shew a succession in all ages of such persons who agreed in all things with them . for where ( say they ) were the men to be found in former ages , that taxed the jewish church with such errors and corruptions as jesus of nazareth did ? that bid men beware of the leaven of the scribes and pharisees , i. e. of the most learned and holy men . had not god alwayes a visible church among them ? they could produce the names of their high priests in every age , and shew them all the marks of a visible church : for in judah was god known , and his name was great in israel . hath not god said , that in his house at hierusalem he would put his name for ever ; and his eyes and his heart should be there perpetually ? how is it then possible but there must be a constant and visible succession in all ages ? since god would alwayes have a people to dwell among ; and that might be known to be his people by the outward marks and signs of a true church . but if the christians pretences held good , god must for several ages have wanted a church amongst them . for none of those things which they charged the jews with , were newly crept in among them , but had been delivered down to them by the tradition of their fore-fathers , in an uninterrupted manner , as they thought , from the very time of moses . this was their rule whereby they guided themselves in their actions of religion , and in the sense of obscure places of the law and the prophets ; and in that time after the cessation of prophecy , when the christians supposed these corruptions to have come in among them , they could draw down a constant succession from the men of the great synagogue , of persons eminent for learning and piety that never charged them with any such corruptions as jesus of nazareth and his disciples did . would god ever suffer such dangerous errors , hypocrisie , and superstitions to prevail in his own church , and raise up no persons to discover these things , till these new teachers and reformers arose ? were not hillel and shammai that so accurately discussed all the niceties of the law , able to find out such gross and open corruptions , if any such had been among us ? might not we say , that not only the teachers , but god himself had slept all that time , if he raised up no one person to discover the coming in of such errors and corruptions ? where had god then any true church in the world , if not among his people of the jews ? and would he suffer that to be overspread with such a leprosie , and send none of his priests to discover it ? and even by the confession of the christians themselves , they were once the beloved and chosen people of god , how or when was it that they ceased to be so ? do not themselves acknowledge , that they receive the law and the prophets from our hands ? and that to us were committed the oracles of god , and that to us pertained the adoption , and the glory , and the covenants , and the giving of the law , and the service of god and the promises , and that ours are the fathers ? how is it then possible after all these priviledges , to suppose this church to fall into such a degeneracy , as at last to be cast off by god , and a new church to arise out of the ashes of it ? thus we may reasonably suppose the jews to have argued for themselves ; and on the other side , they trampled upon and despised this new sect of the nazarenes , that had nothing of the pomp and splendour of their church : they had only a company of mean and illiterate persons at first to joyn with them ; the disciples of their master were a sort of poor fishermen and inconsiderable persons , men of no authority , or reputation for extraordinary sanctity or learning : even their master himself was one of no great severity of life , that did not retire from the world , and lead an abstracted life , but conversed with publicans and sinners , and put not his disciples upon fasting and long prayers ; whereas the pharisees were men of great austerity and mortification , much exercised in devotion , making frequent and long prayers , at certain hours ; and in whatever place those hours took them . now how is it possible to believe , that such devout persons as these are mistaken , and the sect of the nazarenes only in the right ? but besides all this , where was their church before jesus of nazareth ? we offer to produce a personal succession on our side , that joyned in constant communion with us at the temple at hierusalem ; let the christians shew any number of men before themselves , that joyned with them in believing what they do , and rejecting the abuses which they tax among us : if they cannot do this , let them then suffer under the just imputation of novelty . 2. but supposing they do not think it necessary to assign a number of men distinct from our society , but say it is enough that though they joyned with them in the worship of god , yet they did not in their corruptions : yet to vindicate themselves , they must shew how it was possible for such corruptions to come in , and no more notice be taken of them : such things could not be introduced without some notable alteration ; and in such a one , the author , the time , the place , the manner may be assigned : we can tell , say they , all these circumstances in the idolatries of jeroboam , ahab , and manasseh ; if so great alterations have hapned in the state of our church , that there is a necessity of reforming it ; name us the persons , the time , the place , the manner how all these corruptions came in . when came men first to forsake the letter of the scripture , and adhere to tradition ? who first brought in the pharisaical superstitions ? what was his name , where was his abode , who first opposed and condemned him ? were all men asleep then to suffer such alterations , and to say nothing at all against them ? what , could one generation conspire to deceive the next ? and if not , how could such changes happen in matters of religion , and no one take care to discover it and prevent the infecting of posterity by it ? had no persons any regard to god and the purity of religion then ? if they had , would they suffer strange fire to come upon gods altar , and take no notice at all of it ? why did not jesus of nazareth , when he so frequently and vehemently declaimed against the pharisaical hypocrisie and superstitions , and false doctrines , shew to the people , when , and where , and how these things came into the church of god ? he only condemns them , and speaks sharply against them , but he saith not one word to satisfie the scientifical men among them , how it was possible for corruptions to come in , and prevail to such a degree , and yet no circumstances of time or place be assignable of it . thus the jews still believed themselves to be the only true , antient , visible catholick and infallible church of god , and despised the poor christians , as a novel and upstart sect of nazarens ; which is the first imputation the christians suffered under . 2. they suffered under the imputation of faction and sedition ; which is the second thing implyed in the name of sect or heresie here mentioned ; and that they charged upon them two wayes . 1. for not submitting to the churches authority . 2. for disturbing the peace and quiet of the people . 1. for not submitting to the churches authority : not , that the disciples of our lord did out of humour , or fancy , or only to make a party , break with the jews in matters meerly of order and indifferency : no , on the contrary we find them extreamly cautious of giving any offence in such matters , which temper they learnt of their lord and master , who complyed with many things , that others might not take advantage by his omission of them , to slight and contemn them ; thus when others were baptized of john , he would be so too ; not , that he had any need of washing away of sin : but he would not make use of a particular priviledge to bring any discountenance upon a general duty . thus we see , he went up at the solemn feasts to hierusalem as others did ; and not only was present in the temple , but vindicated by a miracle the order and decency of it , by driving out the buyers and sellers from the outward parts of it , although they had a fair pretence of being ready at hand to serve the necessities of such as were to sacrifice to god in the temple ; nay , st. mark tells us , that he would not suffer any vessell to be carried through the temple : and this he did not upon any reason peculiar to the levitical law , but because it was a house of prayer . and this example his apostles followed , who after they had the holy ghost poured upon them , yet they attended the temple at the hours of prayer . but most remarkable to this purpose , is the instance of st. paul at that very time when he was seized upon , and like to be destroyed by the fury of the jews . for , understanding at hierusalem from st. james , that there were many thousands of believing jews that were still zealous of the law , and were informed that st. paul among the gentiles slighted circumcision and the levitical customs ; he to give them all reasonable satisfaction that he intended to make no unnecessary breach among them about indifferent matters , submits himself to a legal purification in the temple for seven dayes together ; before the end of which , the jews made a tumult and seized upon him , and so he was brought to answer the accusations against him in this chapter . thus careful st. paul was to give no ground for suspicion that he delighted in disorders and separations ; this example he did leave to all prudent christians , rather to submit to things which they have no great value for ( as no doubt at this time st. paul had very little for the levitical customs ) than to hazard the breaking the peace of the church for such matters . but notwithstanding all this care of the first christians , they could not avoid the imputation of faction ; because they would not entirely submit their judgements to the authority of the jewish church . for this was the great pretence they stood upon , that they were the governours of the church by gods own institution , that they were to explain and interpret the law and the prophets ; and this was expressed in the beginning of their law , that in all cases of difficulty they were to go up to the place which the lord their god should chuse ; and to go to the priests , and the levites , and to the judge , and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgement . and thou shalt do according to the sentence which they of that place ( which the lord shall chuse ) shall shew thee , and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee ; and the man that will do presumptuously , and will not bearken to the priest , ( that standeth to minister there before the lord thy god ) or unto the judge , even that man shall dye , and thou shalt put away the evil from israel . upon this place , they might certainly much better establish the infallibility of their own church , than others draw an argument for infallibility in the christian church from it . however , absolute obedience would serve their turn , to charge the christians with faction , in not submitting to their authority . for , was not this a matter of difficulty , whether the messias were to be a temporal prince or not ? concerning what time , and place , and person the prophecies were to be understood ? who were the competent judges in this case , but those whom god had established by his law ? if the scribes and pharisees were charged with false glosses , and corrupting the law by their traditions , the christians were not to take upon themselves to judge of them ; but to appeal to the high priest and the sanhedrin , who were the only lawful judges in these matters : their duty was submission and patience ; but by no means ought they upon their own authority to begin a new church , and to broach new doctrines directly contrary to the judgement of the high priest and sanhedrin ; yea , after they had pronounced sentence against jesus of nazareth , and condemned him to death ; and excommunicated his followers , and punished as many as they could get into their power ; what could it ( in their opinion ) be but the spirit of faction and disobedience thus to oppose the authority of their church , in believing contrary to its decrees , and reforming without any power derived from it ? we see in our saviours time how severely they checked any of the people who spake favourably of christ and his doctrine ; as though the poor ignorant people were fit to judge of these matters ! to understand prophecies , and to know the true messias , when he should appear ! and therefore when some of their officers that had been sent to apprehend him , came back with admiration of him , and said , never man spake like this man , they take them up short and tell them , they must believe as the church believes ; what , they take upon them to judge of such matters ! no , they must submit to their governours : have any of the rulers , or pharisees believed on him ? but this people which know not the law are cursed . i e. when they set up their own judgement in opposition to the authority of the church . and after our saviours death at a solemn council at hierusalem , when peter and john were summoned before them ; the first question they asked was , by what power , or by what name have ye done this ? they never enquired , whether the miracle were wrought or no , or whether their doctrine were true ; all their question was about their mission , whether it were ordinary or extraordinary ; or what authority they could pretend to , that were not sent by themselves ; but let the things be never so true , which they said , if they could find any flaw in their mission according to their own rules and laws , this they thought sufficient ground to forbid them to preach any more , and to charge them with faction if they disobeyed . 2. they charged the christians with faction in being so active and busie to promote christianity to the great disturbance of the jews in all parts . this tertullus accused st. paul of , that he was a mover of sedition among all the jews throughout the world ; and accordingly the jews at thessalonica take the christians by force and carry them to the rulers of the city , crying , those that have turned the world upside down are come hither also . this they knew was the most effectual course to render them odious to all governours , who are apt to suspect all new things as dangerous , and think no truth can compensate the hazard of alterations . thus it was especially among the roman governours , who had learnt from the counsel given to augustus , to be particularly jealous of all innovations in religion ; and had much rather the people should continue quiet under an old error , than have the peace disturbed for the greatest truth . this was really the greatest difficulty in the way of christianity , it came no where , but people were possessed before hand with quite other apprehensions of religion , than the christians brought among them . the jewish and pagan religions were in possession in all places , and the people were at ease in the practice of them . what then must the christians do ? must they let them alone and not endeavour to convince them of the truth of their own doctrine ? if so , they are unfaithful to their trust , betrayers of truth , and false to the souls of men : if they go about to perswade men out of their religion , they know , such is the fondness most men have for their own opinions , especially in religion , that where they might hope to convince one , they might be sure to enrage many ; especially of those whose interest lay in upholding the old religion . how little doth reason signifie with most men , where interest is against it ! truth and falshood are odd kind of metaphysical things to them , which they do not care to trouble their heads with ; but what makes for or against their interest , is thought easie and substantial . all other matters are as gallio said , questions of names and words , which they care not for ; but no men will sooner offer to demonstrate a thing to be false , than they who know it to be against their interest to believe it to be true . this was the case of these great men of the jews that came down to accuse paul ; they easily saw whither this new religion tended , and if it prevailed among their people , farewell then to all the pomp and splendour of the high-priesthood at hierusalem ; farewell then to the glory of the temple and city whither all the tribes came up to worship thrice a year ; farewell then to all the riches , and ease , and pleasure which they enjoyed : and what was the greatest truth and best religion in the world to them , in comparison with these ? these were sufficient reasons to them to accuse truth it self of deceiving men , and the most peaceable doctrine of laying the foundation of faction and sedition . thus we have considerd the false imputations which were cast upon christianity at first , implyed in these words , after the way which is called heresie . 2. i now come to the way taken by st. paul to remove these false imputations , which he doth , 1. by an appeal to scripture , as the ground and rule of his faith , believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets . 2. by an appeal to the best and purest antiquity , as to the object of worship ; so worship i the god of my fathers , not bringing in any new religion , but restoring it to its primitive purity . 1. by an appeal to scripture as the ground and rule of his faith . the jews pleaded possession , tradition , authority of the present church : against all these st. paul fixes upon a certain and unmoveable foundation , the law and the prophets . he doth not here insist upon any particular revelation made to himself , but offers the whole matter in dispute to be tryed by a common rule that was allowed on both sides . and his meaning is , if they could prove that he either asserted , or did any thing contrary to the law and the prophets , then they had some reason to accuse him of innovation , or beginning of a new sect ; but if the foundation of his doctrine and practice lay in what themselves acknowledged to be from god , then they had no cause to charge him with introducing a new sect among them . but the great question here is , what ground st. paul had to decline the authority of the present church ? since god himself had appointed the priests to be the interpreters of the law ; and therefore in doubtful cases resort was to be made to them ; and not the judgement left to particular persons about the sense of scripture ; and yet in this case it is apparent st. paul declined all authority of the present church ; for at that very time the high-priests and elders came down to accuse him , and he takes not the least notice of their judgement in this matter . i shall therefore now shew that st. paul had very great reason so to do , and to appeal only to scripture . 1. because the authority of the present church was more lyable to error and mistake , than the rule of scripture was . 2. because it was lyable to more partiality , than that was . 1. because it was more lyable to error and mistake , than the rule of scripture was . it was agreed on both sides , that the law was from god , and that the prophets spake by the inspiration of the holy ghost ; all that was now left was only to find out the true meaning of them , and to compare prophecies with events . as in the case of the messias , if the circumstances foretold by the prophets had their exact accomplishment in christ , as might appear to those who carefully compared them ; if he were born at bethlehem , of the tribe of judah , when the scepter was departed from it , and during the second temple , and all other circumstances agreeing ; then though the ordinary judgement concerning true prophets belonged to the sanhedrin , yet it was far more reasonable to believe that they were mistaken , than that all the prophecies should be accomplished in a person that was not the true messias . for those prophecies were not intended only for the priests and rulers , but for directions to the people , that they might be able to judge of the accomplishment of them : otherwise when the authority of the jewish church condemned our saviour , the people could have no reason to believe him to be the messias ; if they were bound in the sense of scripture to submit their judgement wholly to the churches authority . it is plain then , that the sense of scripture may be so evident to private capacities , that they are not to submit in it to the present authority of a church . for notwithstanding all the promises made to the jewish church , and the command of submitting to the sentence of their priests and rulers , in a matter of the highest concernment , viz. concerning the true messias , men were bound to believe directly contrary to the present authority in the church . for the people were bound to believe christ to be the true messias ; although the high priest and elders had condemned him for a deceiver and malefactor . but besides this particular case , there may be several others wherein men may lawfully reject the authority of the present church ; and those are , when that authority shall go about to overthrow those things which must be supposed antecedent to the belief of any such authority : as , 1. the common sense of mankind . 2. the force of a divine law. 3. the liberty of judgement concerning truth and falshood . all these must necessarily be supposed before any authority of a church ; but if any church goes about to overthrow these , it thereby forfeits its own authority over men . 1. if it requires things contrary to common sense ; as in that instance wherein some of the jewish rabbies required submission to their authority , viz. in believing the right hand to be the left , or the left to be the right , if they determined so ; or supposing the jews to have required the people to deny that they ever saw any miracle wrought by christ ; or in the miracle of the loaves , that what they saw and handled , and tasted , to be bread was true bread ; or to say , that the same individual body might be in a thousand places at once , or that things whose nature it is to be in another , can subsist without their proper subject ; what church soever requires such things as these from its members to be believed , gives them just reason to reject its authority . 2. if it requires things contrary to the force and reason of a divine law : as the jews themselves would have acknowledged , if any authority among them had gone about either to have left out the second commandment , or made it lawful to give religious worship to images , under any distinctions whatsoever : or if the priests had taken away from the people their share in the sacrifices , under pretence of the unsanctified teeth , or the long beards of the laity , which were not fit to touch what had been offered in sacrifice to god. but we need not put cases among them , for our saviour therefore bids men have a care of the leaven of the scribes and pharisees , because by their traditions they made the commandment of god of none effect : as in their corban , if they made a vow to god they thought themselves excused from relieving their parents ; and in this way our saviour generally deals with them , shewing that though they pretended to keep the letter of the law ; yet by their corrupt additions and false glosses they overthrew the scope and design of it : which he thought sufficient reason to reject their authority ; and therefore when he bids his disciples , observe and do what soever the scribes and pharisees bid them ; it must be supposed to be only while they keep to the letter and reason of the law ; for if he had intended an absolute obedience , he would never elsewhere bid his disciples beware of their doctrine . 3. if it takes away all liberty of judgement concerning truth and falshood in religion . for this is a natural right which every man hath to judge for himself : and they that take this away , may as well command all men to put out their eyes , that they may better follow their guides . but the other is so much worse , because it is an assault upon our understandings , it is a robbing us of the greatest talent god hath committed to our management , it is a rape upon our best faculties , and prostituting them to the lusts of spiritual tyrants ; it is not captivating our understandings to the obedience of faith , but enslaving them to the proud and domineering usurpations of men ; wherein they would do by us as the philistins did by sampson ; they would put out our eyes , that we might grind in their prison , and make them sport . i would not be mistaken , it is the liberty of judgement i plead for , and not of practice ; that may be justly restrained by the laws of the church , where the other is allowed ; because the obligations to peace and unity are different from those to faith and inward assent . and that no absolute submission of judgement could be required by the law of moses , notwithstanding the command of outward obedience in the cases mention'd , deut. 17. 8 , 9 , &c. is most evident from hence , because that law makes provision for a sin-offering in case the whole congregation of israel sin through ignorance , and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly , or supream council , and they have done something against the commandment of the lord : which had been a law made to no purpose , if it had been impossible for their chief authority to have erred or been mistaken in their judgement . from hence we see st. paul had great reason to appeal from the high priest and elders to the law and the prophets , because they were subject to errour and mistake , but these are not . 2. because the law and the prophets are less liable to partiality , than a living judge , or the authority of the present church . i have oft-times wondered to hear men speak so advantageously of a living judge , before an infallible rule , in order to the end of controversies . if all they mean be only that an end be put to them no matter how , i confess a living judge in that case hath much the advantage , but so would any other way that persons would agree upon , as the judgement of the next person we met with , or lottery , or any such thing ; but if we would have things fairly examined and heard , and a judgement given according to the merits of the cause , the case will be found very different here from what it is in civil causes . for here the judge must be a party concerned , when his own authority and interest is questioned ; and lyable to all those passions which men are subject to in their own cases . which will be notoriously evident in the case before us , between the high priest and elders on one side , and st. paul on the other : they pleaded , that if any difficulty arose about the sense of the law , it belonged to them to judge of it ; st. paul declines their judgement , and appeals only to the law and the prophets : had it been reasonable in this case for felix to have referred the judgement to them who were the parties so deeply concerned ? a living judge may have a great advantage over a bare rule to put an end to controversies ; but then we must suppose impartiality in him , freedom from prejudice , an excellent judgement , diligence and patience in hearing all the evidence , and at last delivering sentence according to the sense of the law ; if any of these be wanting , the controversie may soon be ended , but on the wrong side . i suppose none of those who would have controversies in religion ended by a living judge , will for shame say , they would have them ended right or wrong ; but if they would have truth determined , they must give us assurance , that these judges shall lay aside all partiality to their own interests , all prejudice against their adversaries , shall diligently search , and examine , and weigh the evidence on both sides , and then shall determine according to the true sense of the law. how likely this is will appear by the living judges in our saviours time ; was there ever greater partiality seen than was in them , or more obstinate prejudice , or more wilful errors , or a more malicious sentence than came from them in the cause of our lord and saviour ? they would not believe his miracles , though told them by those that saw them ; when they saw them , they would not believe they came from god , but attributed them to the devil ; they would not so much as enquire the true place of his nativity , but ran on still with that wilful mistake , that he was born in galilee ; and by this they thought to confound nicodemus presently , search and look , for out of galilee ariseth no prophet . if they had searched and looked themselves , they would have found , that christ was born in bethlehem , and not in galilee . but where men are strongly prejudiced , any thing serves for evidence and demonstration ; whereas all the arguments on the other side shall be despised and contemned . how captious were they on all occasions towards our saviour , lying in wait to entrap him with questions , to pervert his words , and draw blasphemy out of the most innocent expressions ? and when none of all these things could do , they use all the wayes of fraud , malice and injustice to destroy the saviour of the world as a malefactor and blasphemer . was not here now a mighty advantage , which the authority of the present church among the jews of that time had , above the guidance of the law and the prophets ? and the knowledge st. paul had of the same temper being in them still might justly make him decline their judgement , and appeal only to the law and the prophets , for the ground and rule of his faith . 2. for the object of his worship , he appeals to the best antiquity , i worship the god of my fathers . i. e. i bring no new religion among you , but the very same in substance with that which all the jews have owned ; so some render 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 deo patrio , the god whom all my brethren acknowledge , but he rather understands it of the same god that was worshipped by abraham , and isaac , and jacob , quem majores nostri coluerunt ; so st. peter in his preaching to the people concerning the resurrection of christ , to avoid the imputation of novelty , saith , the god of abraham , and of isaac , and of jacob , the god of our fathers hath glorified his son jesus ; and again to the sanhedrin he saith , the god of our fathers raised up jesus ; and st. paul , the god of our fathers hath chosen thee ; in the use of which expressions they purposely declare that they had no thoughts of bringing in any new religion among them , contrary to what god had of old declared to the patriarchs . the main things in which the jews objected innovation to them , did either concern the bringing in some new doctrine , or the reformation of corruptions among them . 1. for their doctrine ; that either concerned the messias , or a future state . for the doctrine of the messias it was as antient as the records of any revelation from god were . it was the great promise made to the patriarchs long before the law of moses ; and even moses himself speaks of him , as st. steven proves to them ; and david , and isaiah , and jeremiah , and ezekiel , and daniel , and micah , and malachi , as the apostles at large prove in their writings . why should this then be accounted any new doctrine which they all believed and received ? if the question be only whether christ were that messias or no ; for that , they desire nothing more than the testimony of the law and the prophets , and the miracles wrought by him ; but they had no reason to quarrel with them upon their belief , for such an alteration of the state of things which themselves believed must be when the messias came ; for in him not only the nation of the jews , but all the nations of the earth were to be blessed ; which was inconsistent with supposing the ceremonial law to continue in its force and obligation ; being particularly suited to one people lying within such a compass as they might three times a year attend upon the service in the temple at hierusalem . if their quarrel was , concerning a future state , as though that were a new doctrine , st. paul adds in the next verse , that themselves also allow , that there shall be aresurrection of the dead both of the just and the unjust . and in his defence before agrippa he saith , and now i stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of god unto our fathers , unto which promise our twelve tribes instantly serving god day and night hope to come . so that the apostle produces antiquity , universality and consent in these fundamental articles of the christian religion ; only a late busie and politick faction of the sadducees opposed this doctrine ; but why should their opposition signifie any thing against so full a stream running down from the first and purest antiquity ? thus much for the positive part of their faith and doctrine . 2. for the negative pare , or the reformation of abuses and corruptions among them ; this was s. pauls plea ; let them shew where the god of our fathers imposed any of those heavy burdens which the scribes and pharisees place so much of their religion in . what ground is there in the law and the prophets , for the pharisaical superstitions , and vows , and severities to themselves in fetching blood and knocking their heads against the walls , and different garbs and dresses to appear more holy unto men , with many other customs of theirs , the observation of which was made so great a part of the religion of their devoutest men ? and it is a strange thing they should think it impossible such things should come in among them , without great notice being taken of it ; for although sudden and violent changes may have all the circumstances known , yet it is not to be expected in more in sensible & gradual alterations . a man may tell when a violent feaver seized upon him and inflamed his blood , but he cannot do so by a hectick or a consumption ; must he therefore believe himself well , because he cannot tell the punctual time when he fell sick . we may casily describe the circumstances of a landflood which overflows the banks , and bears all before it , but we cannot do so by the coming in of the tide , which steals in secretly and insensibly , and no man can assign the place where the salt and fresh water first mix together . superstition is a hectick feaver to religion , it by degrees consumes the vitals of it , but comes on insensibly , and is not easily discovered till it be hard to be cured . at first , it may be some devout but indiscreet men made way for it , who love to find out some modes of devotion different from the rest of the world , which are greedily embraced by such who admire and follow them ; this example taking , another begins and sets up for a more refined way than the former ; and so the design spreads , till at last true piety and goodness be swallowed up by superstitious fopperies . which is the most probable account of all the pharisaical corruptions ; some of whose observations might be begun at first with a good mind , and by the devout persons of that time ; but afterwards , every one that had a sowrer look and a worse nature than ordinary , thought it not enough to follow the example of others , but like a great physician he must have his nostrum's , something of his own finding out , a new garb , or ceremony , or posture of devotion , whereby he may be taken notice of , and admired for his sanctity . thus that fardle of superstitious rites was gathered up among the scribes and pharisees in our saviours time , whom he most severely upon all occasions rebukes for their hypocrisie , in placing so much of their religion in them . and thus much for the way taken by st. paul to vindicate christianity from the imputations of being a new sect or heresie , by an appeal to scripture and the best antiquity . 3. there remains only , the freedom and courage expressed by him in owning his religion , notwithstanding these false imputations . but this i confess unto thee , that after the way which is called heresie , &c. he abhorred that mean and base-spirited principle , which makes it lawful for men to deny their religion when it brings them into danger ; he studied no secret arts of complyance with his adversaries to securehimself ; he did not decline appearing , though to the hazard of his life , in so just a cause . he valued his religion beyond his own safety , and regarded not all the calumnies and reproaches of his enemies , as long as he made this his constant exercise , to keep a conscience void of offence , both towards god and towards men . and this he elsewhere saith afforded him more inward comfort and satisfaction , than all the crafts and policy in the world could give him . for our rejoycing is this , saith he , the testimony of our conscience , that in simplicity and godly sincerity , not with fleshly wisdom , but by the grace of god we have had our conversation in the world . there is nothing inspires men with so much courage , as integrity and uprightness of mind doth ; and such persons who have the comfort of that , have not only better hopes as to another world , but oft-times escape better as to this , than others do ; for even their enemies cannot but esteem them : whereas the fawning , sneaking and flattering hypocrite that will do or be any thing for his own advantage , is despised by those he courts , hated by good men , and at last tormented by his own conscience , for being false to god and religion . but we may see here in st. paul a great instance of true christian magnanimity ; he was sensible how great both the malice and quality of his enemies were ; he knew he was to answer before a judge , that regarded nothing either of justice or religion ; yet he neither flatters his judge , nor betrayes any distrust of him : he doth not bespatter his enemies , nor discover any fear of them ; but with a modest freedom and manly courage owns the main part of their accusation , and effectually vindicates his own innocency and his religion together . for even felix himself , although a man otherwise very capable of being wrought upon by some wayes of address , of which we read , ver. 26. yet the high priest and the elders with their eloquent tertullus were forced to return as they came , and leave st. paul under the name of a prisoner , but enjoying the conveniencies of liberty , ver . 23. i have now gone thorough all the parts of the text , with a respect to st. paul and the authority of the jewish church , which was engaged against him ; it may now be justly expected that i make application of what i have said to our own state and condition . thanks be to god , we are not brought to such a tryal as st. paul was , we enjoy the liberty of speaking for our selves and our religion , and not only speaking for it , but professing and owning it . and , may we ever do so ! but we have busie and restless adversaries abroad , the factors of the high priest and elders at rome , who have as much spight and malice against us , as ever those of hierusalem had against st. paul ; and they have their tertullus's too , men of art and insinuation , and who manage their cause against us just as he did against st. paul , they charge us with bringing in new sects under the pretence of reformation ; or with rejecting the authority of the present church which we were bound to obey , and thereby laying the foundation of faction ●nd schism . these are heavy charges , but they are no other than those the high priest and the elders made against st. paul ; and thanks be to god , his defence and vindication is ours too , for we appeal to scripture and the best and purest antiquity ; and desire to be judged according to these . these three things therefore i shall speak to , before i conclude . 1. that the same reasons which they produce against the reformation would have held against the spreading of christianity at first . 2. that the same defence which st. paul made for christianity will justifie the reformation . 3. that we have all reason to follow the courage of st. paul in owning and defending our religion , not with standing the imputations which are cast upon it . 1. that the same reasons which they produce against the reformation would have held against christianity at first . what have all the clamours of our adversaries for above a hundred years come to , but the very same which i have already mentioned as the jews objections against christianity , viz. novelty , and faction ? where was your church before the reformation ? produce your succession in all ages of persons who agreed in all things with you . where were those distinct bodies of men who found fault with those corruptions that you pretend to reform ? our church hath had a constant and glorious succession of bishops , and martyrs , and consessors , and religious orders of men , virgins , and widows . but supposing such a distinct succession were not necessary , yet shew how it was possible for so many errors and corruptions to come into the church , and no one take notice of them and discover them . where was the watchfull eye of providence over the church all this while ? what , all the pastors asleep at once ! or all conspiring together to deceive their posterity ! besides , how can the protestants ever answer their rejecting the authority of the present church which they lived under ? and to whom god had promised his infallible spirit ? how can they clear themselves from faction and disturbing the peace of the christian world , which lived in so great unity and peace before ? this is the summ of their objections against the reformation , which are the very same we have mention'd before , as produced by the jews against christianity . if the arguments are good now , they were so then ; if they were good then , for all that i can see the high priest and elders were in the right , and st. paul in the wrong ; if they were not good then , but are now , some remarkable disparity must be shewed between their case and ours ; and that must lye in shewing these three things . 1. that the christian church hath greater infallibility promised than the jewish had . 2. that the first christians had greater reason to reject the authority of that church , than the reformers had , as to the church of rome . 3 that the causes of corruptions in the jewish church , could not hold in the christian . but if none of these can be made good , then the case will appear to be the very same . 1. it cannot be proved that the christian church hath greater infallibility promised than the jewish had . of which we have this plain evidence , that one of the strongest arguments produced for the infallibility of the christian church is taken from the promises made to the jewish . how often hath deut. 17. 8 , 9 , 10. been made use of to prove infallibility in the christian church ? if they had any better arguments in the new testament , would they ever run so far back to a command that most evidently relates to the jewish constitution ? where hath ever god promised that he would dwell in st. peters at rome , as he did , that he would dwell in his temple at hierusalem ? what boastings and triumphs would there have been , if any such words had been in the gospel concerning rome , as there were of old concerning hierusalem ; viz. that god had sanctified it , that his name might be there for ever ; and his eyes and his heart should be there perpetually ? what pittiful proofs in comparison of this , are all those brought out of the new testament for the authority and infallibility of the roman church ? what are all the promises of the spirit made to the apostles , and remarkably accomplished in them , to this plain promise of gods particular presence in that place for ever ? suppose st. peter had priviledges above the rest of the apostles ; how comes the entail to be made to all his successors , and only at rome and no where else ? where are the deeds kept , that contain this gift ? why are they not produced during all this contest ? and yet we see in the jewish church where such a promise was made to a particular place , no such thing as infallibility was implyed in it . 2. it cannot be shewed , that the first christians had greater reason to reject the authority of the jewish church , than our reformers had to reject that of the church of rome . i know here it will be presently said , that the apostles saw the miracles of christ , and wrought many themselves , and received an immediate commission from jesus christ in whom the churches infallibility was then seated . all which i grant to be true in it self , but cannot be pleaded by them who contend for absolute obedience to the present churches authority as infallible . my reason is , because upon this principle they could not believe christ to be the true messias ; for his being the true messias depended upon two things , viz. the fulfilling of prophecies , and the truth of his miracles ; now according to their principles , no man could be certain of either of these without the authority of the church ; for the fulfilling of prophecies depended upon the sense of many obscure places of scripture , about which they say there is a necessity of an infallible judge ; and for miracles , they tell us , that there is no certain way of judging true and false , but by the authority of the church . now if these things be so , what ground could the first christians have to believe christ to be the true messias , when in both these , they must oppose the authority of the present church ? 3. they can never prove , that the same causes of corruptions do not hold as to the christian , which did as to the jewish church . for the christian church in those ages which we charge with introducing the corruptions , was degenerated into greater ignorance , barbarism , luxury and superstition , than the jewish church in the time of its darkness from the cessation of prophecy till the coming of christ. our adversaries themselves confess , that for a long time , there was nothing either of learning or humanity among them ; nothing but ease , and luxury , and ambition , and all manner of wickedness among the chief rulers among them ; nay , even at rome there was a succession of fifty of their high priests , so remarkable for their wickedness , that annas and caiaphas ( setting only aside their condemning christ ) were saints in comparison of them . and is it now any wonder that such errors and corruptions should come into that church , as those we charge them with ? nay , rather the greatest wonder seems to be , that any thing of christianity should be preserved among them . but besides the sottishness of those times , we have many other causes to assign of the corruptions introduced among them ; as , a complyance with gentilism in many of their customs and superstitions ; affectation of new modes of devotion , among indiscreet zealots ; ambition and constant endeavour to advance the authority and interests of the priesthood above all secular power ; and when for a long time these had been gathering the rude materials together , then the moorish philosophy happening to creep in among them , the monks began to busie themselves therein , and by the help of that , a little better to digest that mass and heap of corruptions , and to spend the wit they had to defend and improve them . 2. but against all these , we stand upon the same defence that st. paul did : we appeal to scripture , and the best and purest antiquity . we pretend to bring in no new doctrines , and therefore no miracles can be required of us ; which the apostles wrought to confirm christs being the true messias who was to alter that state which god himself had once appointed : all that we plead for , is that the religion established by christ may serve our turn , and that which is recorded by the apostles and evangelists ; to these we make our constant appeal , and have the same reason to decline the authority of the roman church , that st. paul had as to the high priest and elders , when he appealed to the law and the prophets : nay , we have somewhat more reason ; because god had once appointed the high priests and rulers of the people among them , but the supremacy of the roman church was a meer usurpation begun by ambition , advanced by forgery , and defended by cruelty . but we do not only believe all that is written in the law and the prophets , but we worship the god of our fathers ; of the fathers of the first and purest ages of the christian church ; we are not only content to make use of their authority in these matters , but we make our appeal to them ; and have begged our adversaries ever since the reformation , to prove the points in difference between us , by the testimony of the first six hundred years ; but from that time to this , they are as far from proving any one point , as ever they were . 3. what then follows from all this , but that we should imitate st. pauls courage in owning and defending our religion , notwithstanding all the false imputations which are cast upon it . what a shame would it be for us , meanly and basely to betray that cause , for which our ancestors sacrificed their lives ? is the romish religion any thing better than it was then ? what error in doctrine , or corruption in practice have they ever reformed ? nay , have they not rather established and confirmed them more ? are they any thing kinder to us than they have been ? no. notwithstanding all their late pleadings for evangelical peace and charity , they can at the same time tell us , that the statutes against hereticks are still in force against us , as condemned hereticks ; and we are not so dull , not to apprehend the meaning of that ; viz. that were it in their power they could lawfully burn us to morrow . and is not this the height of evangelical love and sweetness ? who can but admire the perswasiveness of such arguments to gospel-meekness , and melt at the tenderness and bowels of an inquisition ? let us not deceive our selves ; it is not the mean complyance of any in going half way towards them , will serve their turn : there is no chewing their pills , all must be swallowed together , or as good in their opinion to have none at all . for not only plain hereticks , but the favourers and suspected of heresie are solemnly excommunicated every year in the famous bull of coena domini ; and lindwood their english canonist , tells us whom they account suspected of heresie , viz. all that shew common civility to hereticks , or give alms to them , or that once hear their sermons . this last indeed hath been mitigated by a considerable party among them ; for notwithstanding the opposition of the jesuits in this matter , and seven briev's obtained by their means from several popes forbidding all roman-catholicks to come to our churches ; yet the secular priests have contended for it as a thing lawful for them not only to come to our prayers , and hear our sermons , but to partake of our sacraments too . which they may allow , while they hope to carry on their interest better that way ; but if once , ( which god forbid ) the tide should turn with them , then the old laws of their church must prevail , and nothing will be thought so wholsome as an inquisition . which it is strange , their advocates for liberty of conscience , should call only , laws in catholick countreys against hereticks , and not laws of the church , when there are extant above a hundred bulls and briev's of popes establishing , confirming , and enlarging the inquisition . since then no favour is to be expected from their church ( for whatever they pretend , all the severity comes from thence , all the favour and mitigation from the clemency and wisdom of princes ) let us endeavour to strengthen our selves , by a hearty zeal for our religion , and using the best means to confirm and uphold it . and since the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light ; there are some things practised among them which may deserve our imitation : and those are , 1. a mighty industry and zeal in promoting their cause ; they have learn'd of their predecessors to compass sea and land to gain one proselyte . they insinuate themselves into all companies , stick at no pains , accommodate themselves to all humours , and are provided one way or other to gratifie persons of all inclinations ; for they have retirement for the melancholy , business for the active , idleness for the lazy , honour for the ambitious , splendour for the vain , severities for the sowre and hardy , and a good dose of pleasures for the soft and voluptuous . it is not their way , but their zeal and industry i propound to our imitation ; i know not how it comes to pass ; but so it often happens , that they who are most secure of truth on their side , are most apt to be remiss and careless ; and to comfort themselves with some good old sayings , as god will provide , and truth will prevail , though they lye still , and do nothing towards it ; but certainly such negligence is inexcusable , where the matter is of so great importance , the adversaries so many , and an account must be given shortly in another world , of what men have done or suffered for their religion in this . 2. submission and obedience to their spiritual governours ; the greatest strength of that prevailing faction lyes in the close union and cohesion of all the parts together , by a settled subordination of one to another ; which though not alwayes effectual , yet the contrivance is so laid , as if there were as much truth and reason as policy in it , cannot be denyed to be fit for upholding the interest of a church . but we plead not for their blind and absolute obedience ; but sure the apostles had some meaning when they bid the christians obey them that had the rule over them , and submit themselves , for they watched for their souls ; and esteem them very highly in love for their works sake : not , be ready on all occasions to reproach and contemn them , and be glad of any idle stories wherewith to bespatter them . if men would once understand and practise the duties of humility , modesty , and submission to the government which god hath set over us , we might have greater hopes to secure the interest of our church and religion , than without it we can ever have . for spiritual pride , conceitedness in religion , and a spirit of contradiction to superiours are to be reckoned among some of the worst symptoms of a declining church . 3. lessening of differences among themselves ; for although with all their care they cannot prevent them , yet they still endeavour to extenuate them , as much as possible , and boast of their unity among strangers to their churches affairs . the great wisdom of the court of rome lyes in this , that as long as persons are true to them in the main points wherein the difference lyes , they can let them alone in smaller differences among themselves ; and not provoke either of the dissenting parties , unless they are sure to suppress them , lest they give them occasion to withdraw from their communion . they can allow different rites and ceremonies in the several orders of religion among them , and grant exemptions and priviledges in particular cases ; as long as they make them serviceable to their common interest by upholding and strengthning them . would to god we could at last learn this wisdom from our enemies , not to widen our own differences by inveterate heats , bitterness and animosities among our selves ; but to find out wayes whereby even the dissenters in smaller things may be made useful for the maintaining the common interest of our church and religion . and it is a vain thing in any to go about to separate these ; or ever to hope that the protestant religion can be preserved among us without upholding the church of england . for if once that bullwark be demolished , our adversaries will despise all the lesser sconces and pallisado's ; they will be but like romulus his walls , which they will easily leap over at their pleasure . i pray god then ( and i hope you will all joyn with me in it ) that he would vouchsafe to our governours the spirit of wisdom and peace , to find out the most proper means for the establishment of our church and religion ; and i pray god give us all a spirit of knowledge to understand the things which belong to our peace , and of love and unity to endeavour after them . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a61590-e270 act. 18. 15. ver. 1. ver. 2 , 3. ver. 5 , 6. mal. 2. 7. heb. 9. 10. ver. 10. psal. 76. 1. deut. 12. 11. 2 kings 21. 7. 2 chron. 7. 16. v. bell. de not . eccles. l. 4. c. 5. §. praeterea . rom. 3. 2. 9. 4 , 5. mat. 3. 15. mat. 21. 12. mar. 11. 16. acts 3. 1. acts 21. 20 , 21. ver. 7. deut. 17. 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. joh. 7. 46 , 47 , 48 , 49. acts 4. 7. ver. 5. acts 17. 6. mat. 15. 6. 16. 6. mat. 23. 3. màt . 16. 12. lev. 4. 13. john 7. 52. acts 3. 13. 5. 30. 22. 14. acts 7. 37. acts 26. 6 , 7. ver. 16. 2 cor. 1. 12. 2 chron. 7. 16. advocat of conscience-liberty , p. 236. 247. lindwood provinc . l. 5. tit . de haeret . p. 162. 2. vertum. rom. p. 104 , 105. advoc. for lib. p. 24. v. append. ad nicol. eyneric . director . inquisit . ven. 1607. heb. 13. 17. 2 thess. 5. 13. the sum of a conference had between two divines of the church of england and two catholic lay-gentlemen at the request and for the satisfaction of three persons of quality, august 8, 1671. gooden, peter, d. 1695. 1687 approx. 77 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 21 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2008-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a41431 wing g1099 estc r34918 14908430 ocm 14908430 102856 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a41431) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 102856) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1571:5) the sum of a conference had between two divines of the church of england and two catholic lay-gentlemen at the request and for the satisfaction of three persons of quality, august 8, 1671. gooden, peter, d. 1695. 40 p. printed by henry hills ... for him and matthew turner, london : 1687. attributed by wing and nuc pre-1956 imprints to gooden. "the two divines : edward stillingfleet and gilbert burnet. the two catholic lay-gentlemen: edward coleman and edward meredith"--nuc pre-1956 imprints. reproduction of original in the trinity college library, cambridge university. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng burnet, gilbert, 1643-1715. stillingfleet, edward, 1635-1699. schism. reformation -england. 2007-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-10 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-11 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2007-11 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the sum of a conference had between two divines of the church of england . and two catholic lay-gentlemen . at the request , and for the satisfaction of three persons of quality , august 8. 1671. publisht with allowance . london , printed by henry hills , printer to the king 's most excellent majesty , for his houshold and chappel , for him and matthew turner . 1687. the publisher to the reader . since printing of conferences seems now in vogue , i will venture to be in the new mode ; i have so good an example of it before me , that i hope no body will take it ill if i follow it . in the year 1676. there happen'd a conference about points of religion , between some protestant divines , and some roman-catholic gentlemen , which after a long silence , has been now lately set out the second time , in a fine dress , and with a long preface : this gave me the curiosity to seek further into those matters , and meeting accidentally with a copy of another conference held in 1671. wherein some of the same persons were concern'd , i thought good to present you with it . by it 's plain expressions and unstudied discourse , you may easily judge it to be the naked truth of what was then spoken . peruse it , and think seriously of it . the sum of a conference had between two divines of the church of england , and two catholic lay-gentlemen , at the request and for the satisfaction of three persons of quality , aug. 8. 1671. the persons for whom the conference was intended , desir'd the subject might be schism . subject agreed . drs. it is fit we presuppose some principles before we enter into dispute . cath. content . dr. 1. schism is a wilful separation from the communion of the church , without cause . cath. tho' we know very well there can be no cause of schism , yet we will admit ( to come quickly to the question ) your notion of schism with these words without cause in your definition of it . dr. 2. another principle is , men may without crime separate from a communion , in which they cannot continue without sin. cath. agreed . dr. 3. there are certain laws antecedent to communion , by which every particular person ought to judge what communion he ought to be of , or forsake . cath. we do admit , that there are external motives antecedent to communion , which do induce and oblige a particular person to choose the communion of which he ought to be a member , and to which he ought , being a member , to submit in faith and government , of which every particular person may and ought to judge : but we do deny , that the interior doctrins or general practices of a communion are subject to the judgment of every particular man ; so that every private person judging this or that doctrin or practice to be false , heretical , or idolatrous , ( tho' the communion , of which he is a member , judges it catholic and orthodox , ) has lawful cause to separate himself from that communion , without being guilty of criminal schism ; for without this distinction there could be no such thing as schism in the world. dr. you must prove us guilty of criminal schism . cath. we will. in the year 1517 , you wilfully separated from the communion of the church , without cause ; ergo you are criminal schismatics . dr. i do deny that the separation in the year , 1517 , do's concern us ; nor do we think our selves oblig'd to defend or justifie it ; we do only maintain , that the church of england is not guilty of criminal schism . cath. the same argument presses the church of england , as the lutherans ; let it be therefore put thus . in king hen. the 8th . ed. the 6th . or queen elizabeths days ( date the birth of your church from what time you please ) you wilfully separated from the communion of the church without cause ; ergo you , the church of england , are guilty of criminal schism . dr. i deny your antecedent , we did not separate without cause . cath. i prove it . if you had lawful cause , you can assign it ; but you cannot assign any lawful cause ; ergo you did separate without cause . dr. i will assign the cause , it was thus . in the — year of henry the 8th . the parliament declared , that the right of reforming the church of this kingdom was in the king ; upon which the king did reform , and upon this reformation the pope did excommunicate the king and kingdom , which excommunication was confirm'd by another pope in queen elizabeths days ; so that the pope by excommunicating made the schism , and not we by reforming . cath. the declaration above mentioned , and the reformation thereupon , were antecedent to the excommunication ; so that you must prove that the parliament had just power and authority to make that declaration , and to reform upon it , and that they did indeed reform , and not spoil the doctrin they undertook to mend ; for if it had not , all its proceedings were unjust and criminal ; and excommunication was but the just and proper punishment for that crime : and then sure it would be reckoned very strange , to say , that a lawful authority punishing an offender , is made guilty of the crime it punishes , by inflicting that punishment . dr. the parliament did not ascribe any new power to the king ; but only declar'd that the same was in him , which all ages appropriated to their kings , and was allow'd by all ; and i can shew from time to time , that the popes authority has been refus'd , and his legats forbid entrance into the kingdom several times . cath. i pray shew substantially ( if you can ) that the church of england before the reformation , did never at any time accept , or ( which is positive ) did at all times refuse the pope all sort of authority and superiority over them ; else to quarrel sometimes with his authority , or some part of it , or stop his legats , might be just : for that it is possible for a power which has lawful authority , to challenge and demand some sort of authority which is more than what is lawfully his ; and in such case the inferiors may at least remonstrate to their superiors , if not oppose them in such unlawful demands ; and this might be the case between the pope and the king of england at some particular time : at other times inferiors might be stubborn and disobedient , and for a time deny that to their superiors which is really due . therefore to say , that the kings of england did for a time oppose the pope in some things , is not enough to prove the declaration aforesaid ( which was universal , denying him all authority whatsoever , ) to be no ascribing of new power , but only a declaration , that the same power was in that king , which all ages appropriated to their kings , and was allow'd by all ; but the contrary , to what is now demanded to be prov'd ( and must be prov'd before that declaration can excuse the declarers from the guilt of causeless separation , and consequently criminal schism , and consequently of deserving justly excommunication ) is so evident , that i appeal to these present worthy persons , who are to judge in this point , whether this be not sufficiently manifest from the histories which they themselves have read , and the general confessions , which they themselves have met withal from very many even learned protestants , that the pope of rome was at least patriarch of the west , and , as such , had patriarchal authority , at least over the church of england , and therefore was allow'd to be the proper judge of ecclesiastical matters , the very day before the foresaid declaration was made ; and therefore was the only proper judge of the said declaration , and the authors of it , whether it were well and legally made : and this said judge having judicially determin'd the said declaration to be schismatical , condemned it legally , and justly excommunicated the authors . most certainly a declaration made by every one , that pretends power to make one , is not presently lawful , because it is pretended to be so . the late long parliament pretended to declare , that the supream power of england was in the people , and that the said people might judge and depose the king whenever he misused that power , which the people entrusted him withal ; and we know what followed upon it . i hope the doctor will not justifie that declaration , nor can he shew a disparity between this and the other , both being made by those , who were universally esteem'd , at the time they made them , subjects and inferiors to those against whose authority they made them , in those very points , concerning which they did then declare . drs. the pope was never content to be esteem'd barely the patriarch of the west ; and there is great difference between the two declarations , that in hen. eighth's time against the pope , and that in king charles the first 's time against his majesty . cath. it matters not now , whether the pope were content or no to be barely esteem'd patriarch of the west ; if he had reason to challenge more , that no ways justifies you ; do you allow , that he was patriarch ? if you do , answer the difficulty ; and say , how his inferiors came by a power to depose him ; and as to the difference between the two declarations , you must shew it us , before we believe there is any . gentlemen to the doctors . sirs , we do not doubt , but that the pope was allow'd some authority in england before the separation , we do not therefore desire to dispute that ; but supposing he had not , you separated your selves from the great body of all christians united before in one communion , we desire to know what cause you could have for that . drs. we had cause to separate , for that the communion from which we separated , taught false faith , and were guilty of idolatry ; i instance particularly in their doctrin of transubstantiation , and their adoring the host . cath. to the company . tho' you may be pleas'd to remember , that we did at first deny , that any particular person , ( and the same holds of particular diocesses , provinces , and nations , all which united make but one catholic church , and therefore the biggest of them all to be consider'd only as a member of the whole body ) has power to judge , and condemn the doctrins and practices of the whole church as false or idolatrous , when the body against this member says , that the said doctrins or practices are orthodox and catholic , so as to have lawful cause to separate from the said whole communion , without being guilty of criminal schism ; that what we said of a particular person , holds to a nation , or any inferior authority to a superior , is evident , upon supposition , that god has requir'd and commanded , that his church be one , which could not be , if a secular sovereign power has authority to break its unity , upon pretence of judging any one of it's doctrins or practices false or idolatrous : for if one may , another may ; and then swisserland may have as many religions and communions , as cantons , and the world as many churches as secular sovereigns , tho' god has said he will have but one : and here in england the bishops may as well wave the arch-bishops authority , private persons pretend to judge and censure the bishops power and authority , or any one man controul the authority of his pastor . tho' this we deny'd at first , and might therefore well refuse to proceed , till the doctors had prov'd , that a single person might condemn a whole church's doctrin legally , or a lesser authority , judge and censure a greater ; yet because perhaps this method may have been propos'd by your selves , we are content to do any thing for your satisfaction : but then you must be pleas'd ( considering our communion at the time of the separation was infinitly greater than the reformers , as learned and as holy , for ought any body knows , and in possession for many hundred years of the doctrins and practices now condemn'd by these reformers ) to demand more clear and evident proofs against our doctrins than we bring for them : for upon but equal proof , we that are forty to one ( and every whit as learned as the others , especially having receiv'd , what we profess , from our fore-fathers , from christs time , for ought any body knows ; for no body can say when what we hold and practise begun ) have no reason to submit to so much a less number , at the charge of so great a confusion , as must needs happen , and god's command of unity be broke into the bargain . you must therefore demand the most evident proofs that nature can admit of , to prove those doctrins of theirs , upon which they ground their separation , or else it will be criminal schism , and you must desert their communion . if they attempt to prove it from scripture , they must not bring obscure passages out of it , to oppose or interpret clear ones ; for that is not to explicate , but to confound ; not to draw light and truth out of scripture , but to cast more darkness upon it . neither can an obscure and doubtful title lawfully or reasonably cast any body out of the possession of a belief , for which he has clear and evident ones to shew . they must therefore bring texts that prove their points in terms ; for their interpretation is no more to be allow'd of than ours , and scripture ought to be taken literally , where the literal sense does not imply a contradiction . note . it may be reasonably suppos'd , that these undeniable principles were the cause , why the doctors ( as it will appear in all this conference ) would never venture upon any citation of the scripture to prove their doctrin , for which they separated from the roman church , acknowledged then universally for the true church , but were forc'd to fly to some obscure sentences of the fathers , even which will yet appear to make more for the roman church , than for the reformers . drs. all scriptures ought not to be expounded literally , which do not imply a contradiction in a literal sense : i am a vine , ought not to be expounded literally , yet it implies no contradiction , or at least no more than this , christ is bread. cath. i am a vine does imply a contradiction , for christ cannot be christ and a vine at the same time ; christ is bread , is also a contradiction ; but where is that proposition in scripture ? or what catholic in the world holds it ? we say , that which was bread ceases to be bread , and becomes the body of christ , which is no more a contradiction than to say , that which was water , ceases to be water , and becomes wine . drs. that text you build your faith upon , this is my body , implies a contradiction ; for it must signifie , this bread is my body , which is as much a contradiction , as christ is a vine , or christ is bread , which you have acknowledg'd already for a contradiction ; or else it must be an identical enuntiation , and signifie , this my body is my body . cath. this bread is my body , is a contradiction , but cannot be meant in the text ; for in all languages ( but english ) where the word which signifies this is alter'd according to the different gender the antecedent is of , to which this word should relate , it is always put in the neuter gender , hoc in latin , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greek , which it could not be , if it were to agree with bread , or have relation to it , that being always masculin , as panis in latin , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greek ; therefore to say , this bread in the latin or greek language , would be false grammer ; and english , i suppose , has no reason to govern the other languages , but they it , they being more and old , against one and new . nor need it be , this body is my body ; the particle this is a pronoun demonstrative , signifying only some exterior object undetermind'd , as to its nature or name , without some other additional word , as this is a horse , this is a hat , are , i hope , proper speeches , and therefore no identical enuntiations . this only supposes an object existing and expos'd to sense , and determin'd by the following word hat or horse , of what nature and quality it is . besides , this is my body , is an efficient proposition , and is the cause of the change , which is not wrought till the proposition be compleated , and therefore this is not determin'd till the whole be pronounc'd . drs. it is impossible it should be taken in your sense , for transubstantiation cannot be without a miracle ; and no miracle can be without appearing so to sense ; nay , it would destroy all possibility of judging of any other miracle , they being not to be discern'd but by sense , which cannot be rely'd upon , if it may be deceiv'd in this . cath. a miracle may be , and yet not appear to sense to be so , yet ought to be believ'd : for the hypostatical union was never discern'd by sense , yet is believ'd a true miracle ; so that your first proposition is false . to your second , i pray say , whether it be possible for god to make a thing appear to sense to be , what it is not : then supposing it possible , may not god discover to man that he has made a thing to appear one thing , and to be another , as well as he has discover'd , that the divinity was united to christs humanity , tho' no such thing appear'd ? if he may and do's , ought i to believe gods word against my own senses , or my senses against gods word ? notwithstanding this , my senses shall judge of a miracle at all times , unless when god assures me upon his word , that his omnipotency has interpos'd between my senses and their natural object . drs. but we will shew you by the fathers , and not of the first 300 years , but since , that your doctrin was not held , neither in the greek nor latin church . cath. we do expect you should shew us by the scripture and fathers of all ages , ( and do not care to be complemented or spar'd as to the first 300 years , if you have any authority from those times , let us see them ) and very clearly , that your contrary doctrin was held , else you cannot be justified or excused from schism in your separation . dr. it is sufficient to shew against you , that your doctrin has not had that constant succession you boast of : and that i will do by producing instances plain and clear , that your doctrin was not maintain'd in one certain age since christ . cath. tho' that can never justifie your separation , or make your communion safe ; for if it were not safe to stay in the roman communion , because a doctrin believ'd by them , was in one age since christs time , not believ'd , it can never be safe to abide in yours , where many doctrins are now believ'd , which you acknowledge were not believ'd by the true church for many hundred years together : yet let us hear your proofs . dr. i will shew you a homily us'd in the saxon church , from which you shall see how that church and your augustin agree in this doctrin . cath. at least 't is some kindness to grant augustin to be ours , who converted england above 1000 years ago . narr . truly the homily we did never see before , nor never heard of it , nor do we know what credit it bears , nor can i remember the words exactly ; but in the first place the doctor quoted , for he produc'd two , the sense was , that the bread and wine which the priest consecrated at mass , was turn'd into the true body and blood of christ ; which text we pray'd the doctor to read in english , which he did ; and after a little stumble at the word missam , he told us , he car'd not tho' he render'd it mass , which he did ; this very quotation we urg'd against him ; but he told us this must be explain'd by another , in which he brought us the same , or like words again concerning the change , but at the end of the sentence were these words in a distinct remarkable character , not corporally but spiritually . where , or by whom this book was printed , we could not learn , or what authority it was of ; but it might very well be authentick , for all that distinction , it being frequently us'd by modern catholics , who are not deny'd to hold the doctrin of transubstantiation ; they commonly say , that it is not chang'd corporally , taking corporally to signifie carnally ; as the capharnaits understood our blessed lord , when he spoke of this mystery ; but spiritually , taking that to signfie , as st. paul uses the word spiritual , speaking of the resurrection , where he says , it is sown a natural body , it rises a spiritual body . there is a natural body , and there is a spiritual body ; now if this way of speaking be frequently us'd by those who are , notwithstanding such an expression , confess'd to hold transubstantiation ; why must it signifie more evidently the contrary doctrin in this author , than it do's in others , especially when this author delivers the roman doctrin in this point , in his other expressions , as evidently and plainly as can be , and cites the mass as the doctor confesses ? but he stood not much upon this question , but laid his whole stress upon two others . dr. i will prove now evidently , that your doctrin was contradicted in the fifth age , both by the greek and latin church ; nay by a pope of rome himself : for gelasius disputing against the eutychians , who maintain'd , that the human nature of christ was chang'd into the divine nature , so that there was but one nature in christ ; confuted their heresie , by shewing , that the human nature was no more chang'd into the divine nature , than bread was chang'd into the body of christ ; that is , not at all ; for gelasius has these express words : certe sacramenta , quae sumimus , corporis & sanguinis christi , divina res est , propter quod & per eadem efficimur divinae consortes naturae ; & tamen esse non desinit substantia vel natura panis & vini ; & certe imago & similitudo corporis & sanguinis in actione mysteriorum celebrantur ; which is in english thus , truly the sacraments of the body and blood of christ which we take , is a divine thing , and by them we are made partakers of the divine nature ; and yet the substance or nature of bread and wine , do not cease to be ; and truly the image and similitude of the body and blood of christ are celebrated in the action of the mysteries : where it is evident , that the substance of bread and wine , is not chang'd into the body and blood of christ . theodoret proves the same thing ; for he says , the mystical signs after consecration do not recede from their nature , but do remain in their former substance , figure and form , and may be seen , and touch'd as before ; this evidently contradicts transubstantiation . cath. to the company . we desire you to remember , that you must have clear proofs to justifie the alteration , much clearer than those in possession can bring for the doctrin they continue to hold , and which the others would reform : be pleas'd to consider these two quotations here brought ( i suppose the clearest they have , if not all they have ) and if they do not appear clear against them , i am confident they will appear , either non-sense or contradictions , and far enough from being clearer for them , than any we can bring for our doctrin ; which yet they ought to be , to excuse their schism from being wilful and criminal . we will examin theodoret first . he writes against eutyches ( as the doctor has told you ) which he do's by way of dialogue between eranistes an eutychian , and orthodoxus , which is himself , in these words . eranist . it happens luckily that you speak of the divine mysteries , for even from that very thing i will shew you , that the body of our lord is chang'd into another nature ; answer me therefore to what i ask . orthodox . i will answer . eran. what do you call that gift which is brought , before the invocation of the priest ? orth. that which is made nourishment of a certain grain . eran. how do we call the other sign ? orth. a common name , which signifies a kind of drink . eran. but after consecration what do you call them ? orth. the body of christ , and the blood of christ . eran. and do you believe that you are made partaker of the body and blood of christ ? orth. i do believe it . eran. as therefore the symbol of the lord's body and blood are one thing before the invocation of the priest , and after the invocation are chang'd and are made another thing : so the body of our lord after assumption is chang'd into the divine substance . orth. thou art catch'd in the net , which thou thy self hast woven : for the mystical signs after consecration do not recede from their nature , but do remain in their former substance and figure and form , and may be touch'd as before ; but are understood to be what they are made , and are believ'd , and are ador'd as being the same things which they are believ'd . cath. i pray be pleas'd to ask the doctor whether this whole discourse now cited be not built and founded upon the supposition of transubstantiation . drs. i do acknowledge the argument is founded upon that supposition ; but it is brought by an heretic , an eutychian , which is not much for the credit of your doctrin . cath. yes , we account it much for the credit of our doctrin , that you cannot name any age , in which you are not forc'd to allow , that it was profess'd . you say it was profess'd in this age only by heretics : make that out , if you can , more clear than i will the contrary ; i do assure you , your two quotations will not do it , as i will shew you presently ; but the contrary seems evident , viz. that the heretics did not differ from the catholics in this point : for eutyches , who was condemn'd at a general council , for maintaining one nature only in christ , would certainly have been condemn'd at the same time for holding transubstantiation , had it been esteem'd an error by that age , especially so absurd , monstrous , and idolatrous an one , as doctor — calls it in his new book ; but he was not condemn'd , nor so much as accus'd of error in this point , either by council , or any particular writer of those many , which have wrote against him , and yet you do acknowledge , that he and his adherents held transubstantiation : besides , you confess that his argument was against an orthodox catholic , founded upon this supposition ; therefore most certainly he took it for granted , that the catholics allow'd the supposition ; for it would have been ridiculous to dispute upon a supposition , which he knew his adversary deny'd . i should account it absurd for me to argue against a protestant upon supposition of transubstantiation , which i know they deny ; and so it would have been in eranist , if he had not known that his adversary own'd that doctrin ▪ which he made the foundation of his argument . besides , theodoret himself , an orthodox catholic , making this discourse by way of dialogue , would make himself ridiculous to frame it upon a supposition which he deny'd . after all this , the place now cited , is so far from being so clear against us , as it ought to be to vanquish our standing possession , that the century-writers of magdeburg , who were great enemies of popery and transubstantiation , do condemn theodoret of that doctrin from this very place , and do say he speaks dangerously of the lords supper , in saying , that after consecration the symbols of our lords body and blood are changed and made another thing . and the words next after these , which you quote as such clear ones against our doctrin , must either import idolatry according to the aforesaid new book , or nonsense , if they do not imply the actual presence of christs person by transubstantiation ; for he says , they ( the mystical signs ) are understood what they are made and believ'd , and are ador'd as being the same things they are believ'd : so that the whole sense is thus ; the symbols of our lord's body and bloud are one thing before , and another after consecration ; yet they continue so in their nature , substance , figure , and form , as to be seen and touch'd as before ; but are understood to be what they are made by consecration , and are believ'd , and are ador'd as being the same thing they are believ'd , i. e. notwithstanding they are chang'd , they appear to our sense ( as to their nature , substance , &c. ) to be seen and touch'd as before : but are believ'd to be somewhat else , i. e. what they are made : and this belief is not chimerical or imaginary , but the things are really what they are believ'd to be , and for that they are so , are ador'd ; so that they must be really chang'd into christ's body , for else they could not be ador'd without idolatry : the very words , as they lay , convinc'd the magdeburgenses , that theodoret held transubstantiation ; and , i suppose , had not these two words nature and substance been in the quotation but only figure and form , we had never heard of it at this time . if therefore i shew you , that nature and substance are frequently taken to signifie that which is as consistent with our exposition , and the catholic meaning of theodoret , as figure and form in this place are , i shall not only make it cease to be clear against us , but also shew that it will be clear for us . nature and substance do sometimes signifie what the philosophers call properly substance , as distingush'd from accidents , i. e. matter and form. and thus taken it can be no object of sense , can neither be seen nor touch'd . sometimes it signifies the properties , natural qualities , and accidents with which those substances are cloathed . physicians frequently say , that they have the substance of herbs in their medicins , when they have only the vertue of those herbs , and not all the matter and form : so we say of meat , that it has but little juice or substance , when it has but little vertue or good natural qualities . the fathers say , that the substance of man was deprav'd by original sin , i. e. the inclinations and natural affections : st. paul says , that by nature we are the children of wrath , that the gentiles by nature perform the law : in all which speeches , and a hundred other , nature and substance do not signifie strictly , as philosophers use those words , when they are oppos'd to accidents , but popularly and vulgarly , and signifie no more than properties , conditions , qualities , &c. now supposing theodoret to take substance and nature in this place , in the latter sense , and to mean by them no more than the exterior substance , or visible and sensible qualities of bread and wine , the text is evidently for us . and that the father must take the words in this popular sense , is evident from the whole discourse : for he says first , that before consecration they are one thing , and after consecration they are chang'd and made another thing : now if they be chang'd and made another thing , the change must be either in the interior or exterior substance ; but it is most plain , they are not chang'd in the exterior substance , for as to that , they remain visibly the same , and do not recede from their nature , as sense assures us ; ergo , it must be in their interior substance , which is not liable to sense ; and therefore , as the father in this very place says , they are seen and touch'd as before , but are believ'd to be another thing , i. e. what they are made , and are ador'd as being what they are believ'd . the doctor has told you in the late book i mentioned , the danger of adoring any thing but god ; therefore , according to him , this father must hold these symbols he here speaks of , to be chang'd into the body of our lord , before they become the object of adoration , or else he must be guilty of idolatry , in teaching that something besides god ought to be ador'd , i. e. worship'd with divine honor. as to the place quoted out of gelasius , the same distinction above of the sense of the words , nature and substance , solves that ; and that there must be such a distinction in the words of this father , is most evident ; for without that , he contradicts himself in the words quoted ; for he has two words five times in ten lines ; and if in all these places they must signifie strictly , the father talks nonsense , and so , far enough from being a good authority to justifie a separation . but if the words must be taken in divers senses , and it not being evident which sense is applicable to this or that place , then it is at least uncertain and dark , and consequently not fit ( as not being so clear as it should ) to justifie a separation . but if the place it self , from its own terms , disposes us to apply the strict sense in this or that part , and the popular sense in this or that other , so as to countenance transubstantiation , then this quotation will be very far from doing them any service . now let us consider the words : he says , by the sacrament we are made partakers of the divine nature , yet the substance or nature of bread and wine do not cease to be . if nature must be taken strictly and philosophically in both places , then we are made partakers of the divine nature strictly and philosophically , and not only effectually or virtually : then the divine nature must be actually there , and yet the nature of bread and wine will not cease to be there ; so that this perhaps thus far might favour lutheranism , but can no way help the church of england : then follow these words , and surely the image and similitude of the body and blood of christ are celebrated in the action of those mysteries . we do own this expression , and do acknowledge it is frequent amongst the fathers to say , that the blessed sacrament is a figure of christ's passion , and that the exterior substances , which we see , are a figure to us of the interior substance of christ's body and blood , which we see not , but are to believe to be contain'd under those species : then he goes on and says , therefore it appears evidently enough to us , that that is to be understood by us in our lord christ himself , which we profess in the image of him , observe , that image is here us'd , as we said above , we celebrate and take them , and even as they pass into this , to wit , the divine substance , by the power of the holy spirit , remaining notwithstanding in the property of their nature , &c. we spoke to the signification of the word nature above , speaking to the foregoing words of this father : now let us consider the word substance , which the protestants must have to signifie strictly and philosophically in the words before , or else this quotation proves nothing : but that being suppos'd , they must shew us , that it signifies otherways in these last words , they pass into the divine substance , or else they must grant , that it signifies strictly here also ; and then it is nonsense , for it amounts to thus much , the elements of bread and wine pass into the divine substance strictly and philosophically , and we are made partakers of the divine nature strictly , &c. yet the substance and nature of bread and wine do not cease to be strictly and philosophically . can any body understand this ? what does pass into the divine substance ? nothing sure , if the nature and substance of bread and wine taken strictly and philosophically do remain : but the internal substance of bread and wine may well pass into the divine substance , and yet the exterior nature and substance of bread and wine , signifying the properties and accidents of bread and wine , may well remain . and that this must be the sense of the father , is plain enough from his own words ; for he says absolutely , and without any limitation , that they pass into the divine substance , which must be meant of the interior substance of bread and wine , if any ; for 't is clear , the exterior remains , and does not pass . but then again , he qualifies too the nature , which he says remains , and calls it the property of their nature remaining : which expression does , as we think , clear the distinction , and determins to which side the strict , and to which the popular sense ought to be apply'd : at least , we are sure there can be no clear evidence from hence against us , which yet we must have before we can be remov'd from the long possession , which we have had of a doctrin and practice of such concern as this . drs. the exposition now given , cannot be possibly the fathers meaning , for that that sense would quite enervate the force of the answer ; for the answer must be proper to the argument , which it is intended to answer , and to the point which the argument was made use of to prove : now the point to be prov'd was the doctrin of the eutychians , viz. that the human nature of christ was chang'd into the divine ; to prove which , the eutychians urg'd the change in the sacrament , and from thence urg'd to the change of the natures ; to which the father answer'd , that there was no change in the sacrament , nor no more change in the natures , than there was in the other : this must needs be the meaning of the father . cath. the exposition above given by us makes the fathers words very much more a proper answer to the eutychians argument , than they could be otherways ; for whereas he asserted an absolute and total conversion of the human nature in christ , into the divine , so that it was wholly devour'd and swallow'd up by it , like a drop of hony by the sea ; and endeavor'd to illustrate it from the change of the bread and wine in the sacrament into the body and blood of christ , as a point acknowledg'd by both parties ; to this the father answer'd , that the very instance he gave was against himself ; for that after the change in the sacrament , there were still two natures remaining , viz. the nature of christs body in the strict sense , and the nature of bread as above explicated , for the natural properties , in the popular sense . and this being sufficient to retort the eutychian's argument upon himself , by shewing him there was not such a change in the sacrament , as he vainly imagin'd in the incarnation , it was all that was necessary for the father's design in that place : for as for the interior change , himself acknowledged it , as well as the eutychian . are these all the authorities you have ? dr. these are enough , for they are very plain . cath. we will leave that to judgment : but withal , we hope the company will remember , they must be much plainer than any we can bring for our selves : we therefore desire now to shew some for us . and because we will shew how truly the doctor has asserted , that in an age since the first 300 years , this doctrin was generally contradicted , and the contrary doctrin , viz. that of the church of england , generally profess'd and taught ( for that he must be suppos'd to have design'd to prove , or else he do's nothing in justification of his separation ) and has pitch'd upon the fifth century to make good his assertion , we will insist particularly upon the authority of fathers of that very century : and first , we desire him to consider , st. austin , tom. 8. in psal . 98. printed at venice , an. 1584. where he says , exaltate dominum deum nostrum , & adorate scabellum pedum ejus , quoniam sanctum est : quid habemus adorare ? scabellum pedum ejus ; sed videte fratres , quid nos jubeat adorare . alio loco scriptura dicit , coelum mihi sedes est , terra autem scabellum pedum meorum . ergo terram nos jubet adorare , quia alio loco dixit , quod sit scabellum dei , & quomodo adorabimus terram , cum dicat aperte scriptura , dominum deum tuum adorabis , & hic dicit , adorate scabellum pedum ejus ? exponens autem mihi quid sit scabellum pedum ejus , dicit , terra autem scabellum pedum meorum : anceps factus sum , timeo adorare terram , ne damnet me , qui fecit coelum & terram : rursum timeo non adorare scabellum pedum domini mei , quia psalmus mihi dicit , adorate scabellum pedum ejus . quaero quid sit scabellum pedum ejus , & dicit mihi scriptura , terra scabellum pedum meorum . fluctuans converto me ad christum , quia ipsum quaero hic , & invenio quomodo sine impietate adoretur terra , sine impietate adoretur scabellum pedum ejus : suscepit enim de terra terram , quia caro de terra est , & de carne mariae carnem accepit ; & quiain ipsa carne hic ambulavit , & ipsam carnem nobis manducandam ad salutem dedit ; nemo autem illam carnem manducat , nisi prius adoraverit ; inventum est quomodo adoretur tale scabellum pedum domini & non solum non peccemus adorando , sed peccenius non adorando . we desire the doctor will be pleas'd to put this place of the father into english , that the company may judge of the sense of it , especially at the latter end , which is chiefly to our purpose . dr. i will , it is thus . wavering i turn my self to christ , because i seek him here , and i find how the earth may be ador'd without impiety ; without impiety his foot-stool may be ador'd ; for of earth he took earth , because flesh is of earth , and he took flesh of the flesh of the virgin mary ; and because he walked here in that flesh , and gave that flesh to us to eat for our salvation ; but no man eats that flesh , unless he first adores ; we have found out how such a footstool of our lord may be ador'd , and not only not sin by adoring , but we sin by not adoring , this is the english of the words quoted , which makes nothing against us , for we in the church of england , do always adore when we do receive . cath. what do you adore when you receive ? do you adore that which you do receive ? if you do , then that which you receive is the flesh of christ , or you are idolaters , as lately great pains has been taken to prove . if you do not adore that which you receive , as the object of your adoration , but something else , then you will find that st. austin is against you , for that he ador'd the footstool , that is , the flesh i. e. that flesh which is eaten ; for it were impossible to think , that the father could be in that doubt and trouble which he expresses , about the question , whether christ were to be ador'd or no ? he is concern'd about the footstool , which he endeavors to make so plain , that he repeats the same thing over and over again , and tells his fear of adoring or not adoring : at length he says , by footstool , ( because earth is the footstool ) is meant christs flesh , in which flesh he walk'd here , which very flesh he gave to us to eat , which very flesh no man eats , but he first adores , what ? the flesh of christ sure : and if that flesh he gave to eat , be the same flesh he took from our blessed lady , and in which he walk'd , as the father says here most absolutely , then surely flesh to be eaten , is as much the object of adoration , as that he took and walked in , which i hope the doctor will not deny , but was to be ador'd . so that now , says the father ( having just before spoken of the flesh which christ gave us to eat , and which no man eats without first adoring ) i have found out how such a footstool ought to be ador'd , and that we do not only not sin by adoring , but we sin by not adoring such a footstool , to wit , flesh , which was given us to eat . besides the adoration the doctor speaks of , may be given at any time , and before any thing , as well as bread and wine in the sacrament ; for if it be only the person of christ sitting in heaven , which ought to be ador'd , and is ador'd when we are put in mind of him by such instruments ; we might as well fall down and adore the person of christ in heaven , when we see an image of him , because that puts us in mind of him ( which yet the above named doctor says is idolatry ) or take a piece of common bread at ones house , remembring by it what christ once did with bread , fall down and adore before that bread. nar. st. ambrose , who was somewhat elder than st. austin , and his master , has the plainest quotations to prove this point that can possibly be , in his book , de iis qui mysteriis initiantur . cap. 9. in his fourth book , de sacramentis , cap. 4. & cap. 5. which books we desir'd ; but the doctor being in his own house ( tho' he confess'd he had the books ) he might chuse whether he would let us have them or no. and indeed for one reason or other we had them not , nor st. chrysostom of the same age , out of whom we would have shewn only his 83 d. homily , upon the 26th . of st. matthew , and his sermon of the eucharist in encoeniis , to prove our doctrin ; we would have shewn very many places from that father ; but having not these books , nor others we ask'd for , we were forc'd to quote some places without book , as one out of st. gregory nyss . orat. catechet . cap. 37. verbo dei sanctificatum panem in dei verbi corpus credo transmutari , &c. hoc autem fit virtute benedictionis in illud transelement at â eorum quae apparent naturâ . i do believe the bread sanctified by the word of god to be chang'd into the body of god the word , &c. but this is done by the power of consecration ( or blessing ) the nature of those things which appear being transelementated into it . st. cyril of jerusalem we had , out of whom we desir'd the doctor to read these following words in english . cum igitur christus ipse sic affirmet at que dicat de pane , hoc est corpus meum ; quis deinceps audeat dubitare ? ac eodem quoque confirmante ac dicente , hic est sanguis meus , quis inquam , dubitet & dicat non esse illius sanguinem ? aquam aliquando mutavit in vinum , quod est sanguini propinquum in cana galileae sola voluntate , & non erit dignus cui credamus , quod vinum in sanguinem transmutasset ? si enim ad nuptias corporeas invitatus stupendum miraculum operatus est , & non multo magis corpus & sanguinem suum filiis sponsae dedisse illum confitebimur ? quare , cum omni certitudine corpus & sanguinem christi sumamus : nam sub specie panis datur tibi corpus , & sub specie vini datur sanguis , ut sumpto corpore & sanguine christi efficiaris ei comparticeps corporis & sanguinis , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , christopheri erimus , hoc est , christum ferentes , cum ejus corpus & sanguinem in membra nostra receperimus , atque ita , ut beatus petrus dicit , divinae naturae consortes efficiemur , &c. hoc sciens , & pro certissimo habens panem hunc , qui videtur à nobis non esse panem , etiamsi gustus panem esse sentiat , sed esse corpus christi , & vinum quod à nobis conspicitur tametsi sensui gustus vinum esse videatur , non tamen vinum , sed sanguinem esse christi . sir , if you please , i will spare you the trouble , and render them my self ; and pray tell the company when i wrong the text : the english then of these words , is thus : when therefore christ himself affirms and says of bread , this is my body ; who afterwards will dare to doubt ? and the same also confirming and saying , this is my blood ; who , i say , may doubt and say , that it is not his blood ? he once chang'd water into wine , which is next to blood , in cana of galilee , by his only will ; and shall he not be worthy that we believe him that he chang'd wine into his blood ? for if being invited to a corporal wedding , he wrought so wonderful a miracle , shall we not much more confess , that he gave his body and blood to the sons of his own spouse ? wherefore let us take the body and blood of christ with all assurance ; for under the species ( or appearance ) of bread , the body is given thee ; and under the species of wine , the blood is given : so that the body and blood of christ being taken , thou art made to him a fellow-partaker of his body and blood. we are made christophori , i. e. bearers of christ , when we take his body and blood into our members . so as blessed st. peter says , we are made partakers of the divine nature , &c. knowing this , and holding it for most certain , that the bread which we see is not bread , though our tast judges it to be bread , but the body of christ : and the wine which we see , though it may appear wine to our sense of tasting ; yet is not wine , but the blood of christ . doctor , is this plain english , and is the father faithfully translated ? drs. we do not deny , but the fathers now cited , have the words quoted in their writings ; nor do we deny but that they are well enough english'd : but we do confess all they say ; for we of the church of england do own and acknowledge a very great change and alteration in the sacrament , and do not deny , but that the fathers do frequently make mention of some wonderful change ; but we do not undertake to determin magisterially , and say what manner of change this is , nor does our church impose such a determination , as a neccessary condition of communion with us , as the church of rome does ; and such a one as the fathers contradict , as we have shewn out of theodoret and gelasius . and this very father quoted here , viz. st. cyril , calls it bread and wine , at the same time that he calls it the body and blood of christ : for the first words of his quotation are , when christ affirms of bread , &c. you must shew that the substance of bread ceases . cath. the evidence you pretend to from theodoret and gelasius , we think we have spoke to sufficiently already . if the fathers do mention some wonderful change in the sacrament , and the protestants do agree with them in allowing that there is such a change , but cannot say what a one it is , what cause have they to separate from a great communion , even the whole visible catholic church upon earth ; when , for ought they know , this change which they grant , may be transubstantiation , which they deny , and make the cause of their separation , as being false ? for they acknowledge they know not how it is chang'd , and in such cases as this , i cannot imagine how they can attain a negative knowledge without a positive , i. e. how they can be certain it is not transubstantiation , when the whole catholic church said it was ; and not to be able to know certainly what it is ; especially when to believe right of this point , is an article of faith , conditional of man's salvation ; and therefore necessary to be believed in its true sense ; especially when the consequence of believing wrong will be blasphemy or idolatry in the practice . for if transelementation in st. gregory , and transmutation in st. cyril , both which terms the doctor owns and allows , should mean as much as transubstantiation ; then are the protestants guilty of heresie , in believing the wrong side of a proposition , which contains in it an article of faith ; and of blasphemy in practice , in robbing god of his honor , and using him like a creature . now what should make them think ( for know , i am sure they cannot ) that transelementation signifies less than transubstantiation ? for sure by elements are meant substances . moreover , in all changes , there must a term from which , and a term to which . in this change i desire to know the term from which , and to what it is chang'd : from bread to christ's body , were an answer intelligible , and agreeable to the terms by which the change is express'd : but to say from common bread to sanctified bread , is to talk very unintelligibly , and very unanswerably to the expression you use to this change ; for this would not be at all wonderful . we see churches and church-yards thus chang'd every day , from common to consecrated or sanctified places , and yet we think it no wonder , or account it no miracle ; yet we should wonder to hear one say , after consecrating a church or a churchyard , it were transelementated or chang'd wonderfully by the word of god , as st. gregory says ; or by the power of the holy spirit , as gelasius has it ; or by the omnipotency of god , as st. cyprian says , and many other fathers in such like expressions . you say , you do not determin the change , &c. the more to blame you . for if it be necessary to salvation , to believe right in this point , i. e. to believe that the object present to you after consecration , is the body of christ , if it be so ; and to believe it it is not , if it be not so ; then ought you at least to determin whether it be so or no , and make a firm assent to that your determination a necessary condition of communion with you ( a firm and actual belief of one of these two propositions , it is really the body of christ , or it is not , being a necessary condition of mans salvation . ) for sure you will hold , that that which is a necessary condition of salvation , ought to be made a necessary condition of communion ; therefore if you do not determin at least so far , as to say , it is , or it is not the body of christ , and require that this your determination be believ'd as a condition of communion with you , you do by the first , i. e. not determining , leave all people in your communion in a very great uncertainty , as to the condition of their salvation : for how can private persons have any kind of certainty in a disputed point , without some judicial determination of that dispute ? after which indeed , they may have certainty , or probability answerable to the authority of the determination , which will be infallible , if the authority be infallible ; or only a probability ; and that greater or less , according to the degrees of credit , which the authority may challenge , if that authority be but able to give a probable determination . by the second , viz. not requiring the belief of your determination , as a condition of communion , in case you do determin , you do consess that heretics and blasphemers , or heretics and idolaters , may be of your communion , tho' professedly such , i. e. you do allow your communion to them who observe not the condition of their salvation . for if determining it not to be the body of christ , you do not make the belief of this determination , a condition of communion , you do allow those that believe contradictorily , ( i. e. that it is the body christ , and in consequence of that belief make it the formal object of adoration , ) to be of your communion ; and yet if your determination be true , these last , who believe and adore , as a aforesaid , are idolaters , and do break thereby the condition of their salvation . now i leave to the judgment of the company , whether this undetermined doctrin of yours be a lawful cause for you to separate from the church you were once members of , and was acknowledg'd the true church , to believe you know not what your selves ; for i am sure you cannot determin what change it is . as to the term bread used by the father , it can create no difficulty ; for when we said , as we did at first , that all scripture was to be expounded literally , if the literal sense did not imply a contradiction ; we did suppose that in case it did imply a contradiction , it ought to be expounded otherwise . instance was given in this , i am a vine : what we suppos'd of the scripture , must hold of all speeches , if the literal sense implies a contradiction , they must be expounded otherwise . now mark the father , he says , christ affirming of bread , this is my body , &c. this bread is my body is a contradiction , therefore bread or body must not be taken literally . at the latter end of this quotation , the father says , the bread which we see is not bread , but the body of christ ; there cannot be a plainer contradiction than is , and is not ; therefore bread the subject in this proposition , of which so palpable a contradiction is predicated , must needs be under some other signification besides it's literal one , because this predicate so peremptorily negative , is not bread , and so determin'd positively , but christs body , are so evident and plain , that they are not capable of being misconstrued , especially being predicates , which always limit and determin the subject . so that bread is so call'd , because it once was bread ( as moses his rod , tho' chang'd into a serpent , was notwithstanding call'd a rod , because it had been so ) and still appears to the senses to be bread , as the father here tells us , with this reduplication for fear of mistake , yet it is not bread. i cannot use plainer words to explicate the father , than his own . he that can make protestantism out of these texts , may expound bellarmin and the council of trent , when they please , and make them protestants too . as to your demand , that we should shew that the substance of bread ceases ; i think you never need have it shewn plainer than in the words before you , which say , that that which seems bread is not bread ; i suppose by substance of bread , you mean the being of bread ; therefore the being ceasing , the substance must cease ; but the being ceases according to this text ; for that which was bread is not bread , therefore the substance ceases , and there is a change , which you grant wonderful ; and what can this change be , but this substance ceasing to be is chang'd into another substance , which we call transubstantiation ? and yet because st. cyprian lies here before us , i will shew you a quotation out of him , where he says , that bread is chang'd , not only in effigie , or similitude , but in nature , being by the omnipotent power of god made flesh . dr. i wonder you should quote that place out of st. cyprian , which is notoriously known to be none of his , for the manuscript of that work is now in oxford library , and bears the name of another author , some hundred years younger than st. cyprian . cath. but do you acknowledge that the words quoted out of this work ( be it whose it will ) do signifie transubstantiation ? drs. we do not deny , but that many authors of latter ages have writ very odly of that point , and we do think this , among the rest , one of them . cath. this is the first time , that ever we heard of any such manuscript of this work in oxford ; and yet i have met with many protestants that have made it their business to prove it none of st. cyprians ; and 't is much that none of them should ever hear of this manuscript and urge it , if it were so evidently known to be another man's , and whose , and of what age. but this i am sure , that cocus , the famous man for excepting against places brought by catholics for their doctrins , do's impugn this book chiefly from bellarmin's confessions , who indeed do's say , that it may seem to be none of st. cyprians ; but adds immediately after , that it was the work of some learned man of the same age , as our adversaries acknowledge , to which cocus says nothing , and therefore may well be thought to allow it . mr. fulk against the rhemish testament , upon 1 cor. cap. 7. fol. 282. says , the author de coena domini , which is the work now mentioned , was not in time much inferior to cyprian : and erasmus ( a great man with the protestants ) in his annotations annexed to st. cyprians works , printed at basil , 1558. fol. 287. affirmeth it to be the work of some learned man of that age ; so that taking cocus his silence to what bellarmin says , and mr. fulk and erasmus their plain affirmations of the age of this work , to be worth any thing ; and taking this doctors confession , that the words in this work are odd , as savoring of transubstantiation , you have an argument of transubstantiation in st. cyprians age , or at least of a time not much inferior . gentlem. to the doctor . sir , i have observ'd the discourse as well as i could , and i find the great point in dispute , is , what the fathers held a great while ago . as to the doctrin in debate , you have brought places of both sides , which we must consider more at leisure ; but at present will you be pleas'd to answer me a question or two , which occur to me to ask ? dr. with all my heart . gent. how long is it since transubstantiation ( the word i mean ) has been establish'd ? dr. ever since the lateran council , about 450 years ago . gent. did the church understand the word transubstantiation , then to signifie any new doctrin , or only to express the very self same doctrin which they believ'd before ? dr. we do believe that the word was not taken to signifie any thing but what was believ'd before . gent. when did the church begin to believe that doctrin , which it seems it did believe at and before the lateran council , and thought then well express'd by the word transubstantiation ? dr. we confess we cannot tell , for great errors arrive often from little beginnings and do grow up insensibly . gent. how long was it after the lateran council before this doctrin was complain'd of ? dr. about three hundred years . gent. how came we to discern this to be an error three hundred years after , which our forefathers held for a truth three hundred years together in express terms , and no body knows how much longer they held the same thing in other terms ? is it not much , an error could be so general , and so long maintain'd without any opposition or notice taken of its birth or origin ? dr. it was not so general , but that some oppos'd it , as the waldenses ; but it is not strange that an error should be general and long maintain'd ; for the church of rome says , that the greek church err'd generally and long , in teaching that the holy ghost proceeds not from the son. cath. but the church of rome never taught , that the whole catholic church err'd in teaching that doctrin ; for though that part which is now call'd the greek church , be condemn'd for that error , yet we know how and when it began , and who oppos'd it ; we know that very many of the greeks never consented to it , but did then , and have always since continued in communion with the church of rome ; so that that error was so far from being general , that it was always oppos'd by the latin church , and great part of the greeks too ; whereas no body oppos'd transubstantiation , but known heretics , who began before the lateran council we speak of , and were condemn'd by it ; and were such as the waldenses , ( a people , as i suppose , you would be loath to own for your predecessors . ) and that all the world should , consent so quietly all at one time to adore that for god , which the day before was universally believ'd to be but a piece of bread , and was us'd accordingly ; and no man living in the world take notice when this was done , nor upon what occasion , or give it the least opposition , is a miracle ten times greater ( if there be any degrees in miracles ) than this , which you cannot believe for its difficulty , viz. transubstantiation ; especially when we can shew in every age , when any opposition was made to this doctrin , who they were that did it , and what became of them . berengarius was above a hundred years before the lateran council ; yet we can shew that he was oppos'd by bishops and fathers of almost all countries , as by lanfranck of canterbury , durandus troaernensis , guitmundus , four bishops of rome , and by the pastors of all countries , how he recanted three times , and how he died . joannes scotus erigena , who lived about two hundred years before , and had laid some grounds for berengarius his error , was treated as an innovator by hincmarus and others , himself forced to retire out of france , and his book not heard of again till two hundred years after ; and no man living can tell us , when this absurd doctrin ( as the doctor calls it ) which has had such success in the world , as to obtain belief universally , for several hundred years , ever had any beginning , or any considerable opposition . for though the word transubstantiation was not commonly us'd before the council of lateran , it matters not , nor makes any new belief , since it has always been the constant practice of the church in the general councils , when it did condemn heretical opinions , or decide any point in debate , to expound the true sense of scripture , upon that very point , by some very significant word , to leave no occasion of cavilling or disputing upon its decisions , declaring by an explicit act and positive definition , what was the true sense of soripture , and what implicitly all the whole catholic church did believe before , as it appears in several other councils , as in that of nice against the arians , where the word consubstantial was found out to condemn their heresie , they pretending that the son was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , of like substance to the father , when the council defin'd him to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. of the same substance or consubstantial . the same you may observe in the council of chalcedon , where nestorius was condemn'd by the new distinction of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . gent. supposing , sir , that the roman doctrin in this point be false , and their practice idolatry , and yet both were universal for several ages together , which way can the church of england pretend to good and lawful ordination ? for they pretend to none , but what they receiv'd from idolaters , i. e. the church of rome . dr. very well , for though they were idol●ters , they might give good and lawful ordinations , for the very church of rome holds , that mortal sin do's not hinder a bishop or priest from executing his function . cath. all mortal sins may not hinder a bishop from executing his function , or giving good and lawful ordination , yet some may : for if a bishop should become a jew , ( and the same thing may be said if he becomes an idolater ) you surely will not allow him to give good and lawful christian ordination : for that which destroys the essence of a church or a christian , must needs disable those it falls upon , from giving legal commissions at least , to others to govern the church , or to administer the sacraments of christ . drs. there are two sorts of idolatry , one of the heathens , and another ( if you will have it ) of the church of rome . cath. we will have any thing that you will make evident ; but when you tell us of two sorts of idolatries , i hope you do not mean material and formal idolatry , the first of which , if purely such , is no crime . we speak all along of formal idolatry , which you must accuse the church of rome of , or else , 〈◊〉 nothin● 〈◊〉 if you do , i pray shew how the natur● of formal 〈◊〉 becomes chang'd by its relation to heathens , from what it is when it relates to a papist . i doubt you mean by your two sorts of idolatry , idolatry which is idolatry , and idolatry which is not idolatry , like the honest preacher 〈◊〉 talk'd of three sorts of seekers , one that sought and found , another who sought and did not find , and a third which neither sought nor found ; the first idolatry 〈◊〉 belong to the heathens ; and the second , the no idolatry , to the papists . and now we shall leave it to the judgment of this worthy company to consider , how clear and evident you have made it , that you had such just cause to separate from the whole church , as to excuse you from formal or criminal schism . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a41431-e120 a relation of a conference , apr. 3. 1676. notes for div a41431-e210 theod. tom. 2. dial. 2. pag. 236. edit . colon. 1617. magd cent. 5. cap. 4. de inclinatione doct. tit . de coena domini . ibid. dial. 2. pag. 234. st. cyp. de c●en . domini . a late dialogue betwixt a civilian and a divine concerning the present condition of the church of england in which, among other particulars, these following are especially spoken of ... gillespie, george, 1613-1648. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a42764 of text r15751 in the english short title catalog (wing g753). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 83 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 23 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a42764 wing g753 estc r15751 11926352 ocm 11926352 51035 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a42764) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 51035) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 230:e14, no 17) a late dialogue betwixt a civilian and a divine concerning the present condition of the church of england in which, among other particulars, these following are especially spoken of ... gillespie, george, 1613-1648. [2], 42 p. printed for robert bostock ..., london : 1644. particulars spoken of: "1 the sinne and danger of delaying reformation. 2 that there is a certain form of church-government jure divino. 3 that there was an ecclesiasticall excommunication among the jewes. 4 that excommunication is an ordinance in the new testament. 5 concerning the toleration of all sects and heresies. 6 some answer to a late book come from oxford." the "late book come from oxford" is john maxwell's an answer by letter to a worthy gentleman. attributed to george gillespie. cf. nuc pre-1956. reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng maxwell, john, 1590?-1647. -an answer by letter to a worthy gentleman. reformation -england -history -17th century. excommunication. a42764 r15751 (wing g753). civilwar no a late dialogue betwixt a civilian and a divine, concerning the present condition of the church of england. in which, among other particular gillespie, george 1644 15245 255 15 0 0 0 0 177 f the rate of 177 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the f category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2003-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-06 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-01 ben griffin sampled and proofread 2005-01 ben griffin text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a late dialogue betwixt a civilian and a divine , concerning the present condition of the church of england . in which , among other particulars , these following are especially spoken of . 1 the sinne and danger of delaying reformation . 2 that there is a certain form of church-government jure divino . 3 that there was an ecclesiasticall excommunication among the jews . 4 that excommunication is an ordinance in the new testament . 5 concerning the toleration of all sects and heresies . 6 some answer to a late book come from oxford . 1 thes. 5.21 . prove all things : hold fast that which is good . published by authority . london : printed for robert bostock , dwelling in pauls church-yard at the signe of the kings head . 1644. a late dialogve betwixt a civilian , and a divine , concerning the present condition of the church of england , &c. divine . good morrow to you good sir . civilian . i am glad to see you sir , will you take a walk with me this morning , and tell me what good newes yee have heard , for i have not yet been in westminster hall , the place most infected with the athenian disease . divine . i can tell you no newes at this time . civilian . you look as you were not well pleased to day , pray you tell me , have you heard any bad newes from the north or from the west . divine . none truly , but this i confesse , that though i cannot but allow those who from their affection to the cause , are inquisitive of newes from severall quarters , and labour to make some good use of what they heare ; yet for mine own part , one thing sticks with me , which suffereth me not either to be so curious in seeking , or so joviall in hearing newes , as many others are . the truth is , i am more afraid and apprehensive of our owne , then of our enemies victories . civilian . this is a most strange paradox , what can you mean by it ? i hope you are not turned malignant . divine . if it be paradoxall , yet i am sure it is orthodoxall , i remember judicious calvin said the same of the german warres in his time . there is more danger , said he , like to come by our owne then by our enemies victory . i desire his words may bee well observed , and applyed . i dare say , god is more gracious to us in continuing this war of ours , then if he should answer our desires in putting an end to it presently . when god blesseth our forces with any great successe , nay when hee doth but draw back his afflicting hand a little , and giveth us some lightning of our eyes , o how doe we by and by forget god , and slight both hu●iliation and reformation . * then iesurum forsook god which made him , and lightly esteemed the rock of his ●alvation . * but , when he slew them , then they sought him , and returned and inquired after god early . there were never serious and deep thoughts , either in the parliament , or in the kingdome , of fasting and praying , of covenanting with god , of purging our hearts , our lives , our families , of reforming the church , according to the word , of building the temple according to the patterne , of caring for the things of jesus christ more then for their own things ; never but when we felt gods hand smart and heavy upon us . and if now the sword of the lord should be still , and england a quiet habitation , every man sitting under his own vine , and under his owne figtree : i verily believe our great state-physitians should heale the wound of the daughter of sion slightly , and daube the wall with untempered morter , and the church of god in this kingdome should have dry breasts , and a miscarrying wombe , instead of bringing forth the manchild of reformation , now sticking in the birth , but having no strength to come forth , till some new pains and pangs quicken and carry through the work . civilian . i must confesse the reformation of our selves and our families hath been , and is still , too much neglected . but for nationall and church-reformation , i doe not know what can be more done then is done , considering our intestine divisions among our selves , which as mr. fox observeth was the undoing of the church and of religion in king edwards dayes , and is like to prove the bane of religion and reformation in our dayes . ita dum singuli pugnant universi vincuntur : as tacitus speaketh of the ancient brittish . divine . sir , i desire that first of all this may be laid downe as a sure principle , that the purity and liberty of the gospel , and of the ordinances of jesus christ , is to bee more esteemed of , and sought after then all or any thing in this world . that it is said as well to states and parliaments , as to particular persons : seek yee first the kingdome of god and the righteousnesse thereof , and all these things shall be added unto you . the setling of religion is to be looked upon , as causall , not as consequent to the peace and prosperity of the kingdom . doe but prove the lord now herewith , and see if he will not appoint salvation for walls and b●●●marks , if he will not honour those that honour him , if he will not be zealous for those that are zealous for him . the trojans believed that troy could not be taken except their idoll palladium were taken away from them which being once taken away by vlysses and diomedes , they observed that shortly thereafter their town was destroyed . arno●ius tells us that when the i●age of iupiter was throwne down in the capitoll , and was lying upon the ground , the heathenish so●th-savers did foretell sad and heavy things which should never be removed till iupiter were set in his owne place ; whic● i● it were no done , that they did in vain hope for the preservation of the lawes , or the healing of their homebred divisions . shall those pagans rise up in judgement against us christians , who doe so overly and slightly goe about the building of the house of god , and the erecting of the throne of jesus christ ; who care for something else more then for his church and kingdome , his glory and his ordinances , who seek our owne things , not the things which are jesus christs . civilian . no man can say against this , that true religion is the alpha and omega of a kingdomes happinesse , and that it is their surest foundation and strongest bullwark of peace , liberties , and lawes . and i trust the parliament will ever be most tender and carefull of it , and put it in its own place as they have frequently professed in their declarations , and really manifested in calling and keeping together an assembly of learned and pious div●nes , the results of whose debates and consultations t●ey will take to their consideration in due time , for setling the government of the church , and the worship of god . divine . if you would really and carefully indeavour , to doe what you professe to intend , i have no more to say , but that the successe is to be committed to god , you having done your duty . but assuredly the practises doe not answer to the professions , nor the performances to the promises . civilian . for that i must tell you a story which i remember that i have read , in diodorus siculus of pharnabazus who after many slow preparations , did at last lead forth artaxerxes his army against the egyptians . this man being asked by iphi●rates , why he was so nimble and ready in discourse , and so slow in action , why he did promise so much , and performe so little : answered , because hee was master of his words but king of his actions : meaning that actions were not so much in his power as words . divine . all things are possible to him that believeth . doe not say with the sluggard , there is a lyon in the way . if you would but doe your duty in going about the thing , trust god with the event . now assuredly it is your duty to carry on the cause of religion in the first and principall place , which that i may the more presse upon you , i will adde unto that which hath been said , the notable example of solomon , 1. king. 6.37 , 38. & 7.1 . in the fourth year was the foundation of the house of the lord laid , in the moneth zif , and in the eleventh year in the moneth bull ( which is the eight month ) was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof , and according to all the fashion of it . so was ●e seaven yeares in building it . but solomon was building his own house thirteen yeares . neither did he begin to build his own house , till those seven yeares were ended , and the house of the lord fully perfected , as appeareth clearly by 2. chron. 8.1 . and it came to passe at the end of twenty yeares , wherein solomon had built the house of the lord , and his owne house . after all which ( as followeth in that place ) hee took care for store-cities , and fenced cities , for tribute , and for his navy . tostatus and other interpreters observe , that solomon looked first to the lords matters , and afterwards to his owne matters . and iosephus his observation is very much to be taken notice of . the building of the temple ( saith he ) which did continue for seven yeares being finished , he went about the building of the palace , which in the thirteenth yeare , he did scarcely finish , for hee did not take so much care of this work , as of the building of the temple , which though both large and more glorious then can be beleeved , was through gods assistance perfected in the foresaid space : but the palace though very farre inferiour to the magnificence of the temple , yet the materialls thereof not being so long before prepared , and the house being to be builded for the king , not for god , it was the more slowly brought to perfection . civilian . but i beseech you where is the fault with us ? and what could be more done then is done ? divine . o but my heart bleeds to think how it goeth for the present , and how it is like to goe for the future with this distracted unsetled church , what fruits have wee yet reaped of our many petitions and indeavours for reformation of religion , of our solemn covenant , of the learned debates and long consultations of the assembly of divines , meethinks that which was said of ephraim , hos. 13.13 . agreeth too too much to england . the sorrows of a travelling woman shall come upon him , he is an ●nwise son , for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children . i wish we may beware of that which some stories have observed to have been a most unhappy errour in the emperour frederick 3. who did so far connive at all things , that when he was put in mind to look to this or that , to prevent this or that danger , hee was wont to answer as faelix did , the time of amending those things was not yet come , hee would wait for a more convenient season ; which season hee could never see ? i am perswaded it lyeth heavy upon the spirits of thousands beside my selfe , to know that every man doth now in religion what seems good in his own eyes , errors and schismes doe multiply , in most places of the kingdome ; there is a darknesse instead of divination , and people are like sheep that have no shepheard : and for ought i can see , betwixt our forsaking of the old , and finding of a new way , wee are fallen in a wildernesse where there is no way , o when shall i once see religion setled ? civilian . when the warre shall be husht , the state ordered and composed , the peace of the kingdome socured ; it is not to bee expected till then that the parliament can have much leisure to look to church matters : yet they will no doubt , doe the best that may be for the interim . marvell not if i say more , that the parliament doth wisely in moving so slowly . the slow and wary motions of fabius did overcome ha●●db●● , whereas the heat and suddennesse of minutius did indanger the common-wealth . suddain courses ( i doubt ) shall not so much glad us in the beginning , as grieve us in the end . divine . i have read in some polititians , that though that of augustus . — festina lente , doe well agree to calme and peaceable times : yet alexander his {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} nihil cunctando , is fitter for times of trouble and warre , and so they reconcile the one with the other ▪ kekerm . discurs . de consilio quaest. 7. it is not safe to dispute long , in the time of a present combustion , nor to consult long about the cure , when the patient lyes a dying ; but i desire to argue from the principles of my owne profession : god did of old reprove his people , because they said , the time is not yet come , the time that the lords house should be builded . this they said at that time when iudah and benjamin had powerfull adversaries , when the land was not secured , nor the walls of ierusalem built . they might have pleaded for themselves enough of this kind , but all this could not excuse them at gods hands : he would have them build the temple before the walls of ierusalem . and in this they harkened to the prophets of god , and did so . thereafter god taketh themselves to witnesse , whether he had not blessed them from that very day when they laid the foundation of the temple : nay i dare say it is not only good divinity , but good policy , that the parliament should mind the things of christ , more then their own things : for if ( as i suppose ) you will believe matchiavell , hee teacheth you that the setting up of the ordinances of christ , is the best way to make a kingdome flourish in prosperity and peace . i conclude therefore that procra●tinations in reforming religion may prove very pernitious aswell to the common-wealth , as to the church . and for my part i must confesse , i am afraid that the parliament hath felt , and shall yet feel gods hand against them i● other things , because of their doing the work of the lord so negligently , and at the best by halfes . i wish the honourable house of commons may remember what they were about at that instant , when the sad newes of the dispersion of the army in the west , were brought to them : and if they shall inquire at god , as iob did , show mee wherefore thou contendest with me . i doubt not but they shall heare the voice of his servants , the voice of his rods , and the voice of their owne consciences telling them that he hath somewhat against them : that hee healeth not the breaches of the land , because they heal not the breach of the daughter of sion : that hee makes the successe of the warre to halt , because they halt betwixt two , or rather many opinions . civilian . i doe fully agree with you if all this be understood of the fundamentals of faith and religion , and the power of godlinesse . but if so be , you meane of the government and discipline of the church , then you make mountaines of mole-hills , and put hercules sh●e upon an infants foot , whiles you hold that god is not pleased , and that the kingdome cannot be blessed , unlesse the order and discipline of the church bee established so and so as you would have it . i doe not acknowledge either the episcopall way , or the presbiteriall , or the c●ngregationall , to be iure divino , but that all things of that kind are left in such an indifferency , that they may bee moulded and fashioned diversly according to the different formes and constitutions of common-wealths , and altered as much and as often , as each state shall find most convenient for it selfe . if you can convince me that i am in an error , go to , let me heare your reasons . divine . i shall indeavour by gods assistance to satisfie you . but first of all let me use this humble liberty with you , once to put you in mind of the apostles premonition , let no man deceive himselfe : if any man among you seem to be wise in this world , let him become a foole that hee may bee wise . hee that most denieth his owne naturall judgement in supernaturall verities , and is not conformed to this world , but is transformed by the renewing of his mind ; shall best prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of god . absque te sapere , est desipere . o lord , faith augustine , to be wise without thee , is to be mad . do not therefore measure scripturall truths , by politicall principles , but contrariwise , and let your judgement be unbyassed and unprejudiced , when light is set before you . and whereas it seemeth to you a veniall thing , if not altogether lawfull to take a latitude in all such things as are not substantiall ( though scripturall ) truths , and may ( you conceive ) admit a variation upon state-considerations . remember i beseech you that it is the pleasure of god to take notice of , yea purposely to try our obedience , etiam in minimis : for hee that is faithfull in that which is least , is faithfull also in much , and he that is unjust in the least , is unjust also in much . how was the lord offended with ieroboams setting up of altars at dan and bethel : yea even with the kings of iudah , for not taking away the high places , though ieroboam migh have pleaded that it was extreamly dangerous ( in regard of the warre betwixt him and rehoboam ) that his subjects should goe up to ierusalem to sacrifice unto the lord there . and the kings of iudah might plead , that it was too burthensome for all the people to be tyed to go to ierusalem with their sacrifices : that god would have mercy and not sacrifice ; especially considering that they held the foundation , and sacrificed to the lord only ; and this variation from the law of moses , being in no substantiall thing , but only in the circumstance of place . in like manner ieroboam thought not fit to have the feast of tabernacles upon the fifteenth day of the seventh moneth , but upon the fifteenth day of the eight moneth , when the fruits of the earth were more fully gathered in : he would observe the feast according to the law in all the substantialls , but would not bee tyed to the circumstance of time . but god doth utterly reject his worship , because ieroboam had devised it of his owne heart . if therefore the will of jesus christ can be made to appear from his word , even concerning the form of church-government and discipline , and ceremonies of worship , that thus and thus he would have us to do , will you then quarrell at these things , because stamped with a i● divinum ? will you draw out your neck from this yoke , because it is christs yoke ? will you submit and obey because these things are ordinances of parliament , and you will not submit because they are ordinances of christ . civilian . you say right , if you can make it appeare that jesus christ hath revealed his will and commandements , not only concerning faith and manners , but how he would have his church governed and ordered . now this is it which you have yet to prove . divine . for that , i shall desire you to consider , that jesus christ is the only head and king of his church , that the government of his church is a part of his kingly office : that the government is committed into his hand , and the key of the house of david is laid upon his shoulder ; that the father hath set him as a king upon his holy hill of zion , to raign over the house of iacob for ever , and of his kingdom there shall be no end . as therefore he hath fully and faithfully executed his priestly office in making attonement for our sins by the sacrifice of himselfe , and still making intercession in heaven for us . and his propheticall office in revealing the whole counsell of god , and teaching his people by his word and spirit , what he would have them to do . so he hath no lesse fully & faithfully executed his kingly office and legislative power , in providing by his statutes and ordinances for all the necessities of his church ; and appointing by whom and after what manner he will have his house governed , what spirituall courts and judicatories hee would have erected , how he would have them constituted , by what rules to proceed , how to censure offences . it is an old observation , they are the best lawes , which leave least to the power of the judge to doe as he list . it were a bad administration of the supreame power in any kingdom , if no certaine kinds of subordinate officers , nor no certain kind of government were appointed , but all this left to the liberty of every country or city . now jesus christ is more wi●e , and provident , and faithfull , in the government of his whole church , then ever king or parliament was in the government of an earthly kingdome ; and hath therefore appointed officers , courts , censures , and lawes , for the right ordering thereof ; and hath not left these things to bee determined by th●● or that state at their pleasure . i should wish you and all that are of your mind , to study better the kingly office , and prerogative royall , of jesus christ . civilian . i conceive the kingly office of christ to consist in this , that he preserveth , strengtheneth , and delivereth the church invisible , and all the members of his mysticall body from the malice of the divell , and the wicked world , and also ruleth and commandeth their hearts by his spirit , to walk in the wayes of his obedience . but that the kingly office of christ reacheth so farre , as to the externall government and order of a visible politicall ministeriall church , that i still doubt of . divine . you observe not that my argument did conclude this very thing , at which you stick , that christ hath appointed a certain policy and government , and certain kinds of officers for the church , because hee hath fully and faithfully discharged his kingly office in providing for all the necessities of his church . and that hee raignes and rules in his church , not only mystically , but politically considered ; i suppose you cannot deny , if you observe that otherwise a visible politicall church is a body without a head , and subjects without a king . therefore it is the ordinary expression of our divines against papists , that the government of the church is partly monarchicall in regard of christ our king and law-giver ; partly aristocraticall in regard of the ministers and officers , and partly democraticall in regard of certaine liberties and priviledges belonging to people . civilian . i would understand whether the reformed churches hold the forme of their ecclesiasticall government to be jure divino , for i have heard , that it was introduced among them only in a prudentiall way . divine . i shall give you some cleare instances of their judgement , such as come to my remembrance . in the book of the policy of the church of scotland , i read thus . this power and policy of the church should lea●e upon the word immediately , as the onely ground thereof , and should bee taken from the pure fountaines of the scriptures , the church hearing the voice of christ , the only spirituall king , and being ruled by his lawes . in the french confession it is said , we beleeve that this true church ought to bee governed by that regiment or discipline , which our lord iesus christ hath established . ●n the belgick confession , i find words to the same purpose ▪ we beleeve , say they , that this church ought to be ruled and governed by that spirituall regiment , which god himselfe hath delivered in his word . see harm ; confes. sect. 11. if the question were only this , whether the divine right of this or that form of church-government is to be mentioned and held forth in the ordinance of parliament , for my part i should not contend much for that , the businesse going right otherwise . but it belongeth at least to the assembly of divines to satisfie the consciences of men by holding forth the institution and ordinance of jesus christ : which if it bee not done , our proceedings shall not be conformable to those of other churches . civilian . well then , goe on ; you did bring an argument from the kingly office of jesus christ . let me heare what other arguments you have to make it appeare that god hath in his word descended so farre into paricularities with us , as to appoint a certain forme of church-government . divine . this will appeare best , when the particular forme of church-government with the scripturall grounds of it , shall be taken into consideration . this government is iure divino . ergo , a government is iure divi●● . this were too large a subject for our conference . but i ●●mit you to what is largely written concerning it . i shall only put you in mind , that in all ages god hath by positive lawes descended into many particularities with man . take for instance beside the positive law before the fall , the commandement not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evill , other positive law● before the law , such as that of the distinction of clean and uncleane beasts , gen. 7. the law not to eat blood , gen. 9. the law of circumcision , gen. 17. under the law , beside morall and forensicall observances , there were many ceremoniall statutes . and under the gospell , christ and his apostles have left another law , which though it lay opon us , neither many nor burthensome performances , yet bindeth us to such and such things in ecclesiasticall policy . the particulars we find in the acts of the apostles , and in the epistles , especially to timothy and titus , and rom. 12. and 1. cor. 12. civilian . many particulars of that kind there are in the acts and epistles of the apostles . but that those things were intended as perpetuall and binding ordinances , is a great question . and beside i have heard some learned men make a distinction betwixt ius di●inum ; and ius apostolicum . divine . this distinction was used by those that denyed the jus divinum of the lords day . but surely i● i● an i●● grounded distinction , and those that make most use of it , are forced also to distinguish betwixt ius divinum , and ius mosaicum , holding that though god was the author of the morall law , yet moses ( no● god ) was the author of the judiciall and ceremoniall law : as the apostles did write some things as christs heraulds : other things as pastors or bishops of the churches ; that they were authors of the latter , promulgators only of the former , and that therefore the former only were iure divino . thus saith salmeron , but hee is in this contradicted by bellarmine , maldonat , suarez , and others . lorinus in psal. 88.32 . noteth , that it was one of the errors of valentinus and of the gnosticks , that the decalogue only was from god ; and other lawes from moses and the elders of israel . but what saith the apostle himselfe after hee hath given rules concerning the policy of the church , let the prophets speak two or three , and let the other judge ; and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets . let your women keep silence in the churches , &c. then he addeth , 1. cor. 14.37 . if any man think himselfe to be a prophet or spirituall , let him acknowledge , that the things that i writ unto you , are the commandements of the lord . doe wee not also find , the laying on of hands reckoned among those cat●cheticall heads which the apostles did deliver as perpetuall to all the churches , heb. 6.2 . papists understand the episcopall confirmation . dwerse of our writers understand ordination of ministers , and the severall kinds of church officers . however it is agreed on both sides , it is a thing belonging to the policy of the church , not to the foundation of faith or piety . i adde that the directions given to timothy and titus are standing ordinances for all the churches , as may be proved from 1. tim. 3.15 . and 6.14 . and 2. tim. 2.2 . civilian . but ratio mutabilis facit praeceptum mutabile . the reason why there were ruling elders and deacons , and church-censures at that time was , because there was no chri●●ian magistrate . so that under a christian magistrate there is no necessity of such officers , government , or censures in the church . divine . i answer , first there is no ground at all in scripture for such a distinction , for the scripture holds not out one form of church-government , for times of persecution , another for times of peace . but rather one form to bee perpetuall and continued , till the second coming of jesus christ . rev. 2.24 , 25. that which ye● have already , hold fast till i come . so 1. tim. 6.14 . before cited , and the like . 2. chrysostome hom. 12. in 1. cor. doth shew diverse sinnes for which the best law-givers had appointed no punishment . and where there are christian magistrates , yet there are no lawes nor civill punishments for somethings which must needs fall within the compasse of church-discipline , such as ignorance of god , neglect of family worship , living in malice , or envy , &c. 3. and though the civill or municipall lawes should reach to all offences which are supposed to fall under the verge of church-discipline , yet there is still a necessary use of both . for instance , a traitor , or a murtherer being excommunicated by the church , is by the blessing of god gained to true repentance , humiliation , and confession , whereupon hee is loosed and remitted , and again received into the bosome of the church : neverthelesse the civill sword falleth upon him ; were hee never so penitent , shall such a one either escape the civill sword because reconciled to the church , or shall he after god hath given him mercy , and a great measure of repentance , die under the dreadfull sentence of excommunication , because justice must bee done by the magistrate . there is no way of avo●ding great inconveniences on both sides , but by holding the necessary distinct uses both of the sword of the magistrate , and censures of the church . 4. and when they are most coincident , it is but materially or objectively , not formally : one and the same man must bee civilly punished , because justice and the law of the land so requireth , and that the common wealth may bee kept in peace and order ; he must also bee ecclesiastically censured , that his soule may be humbled , that hee may bee filled with godly sorrow , and with shame and confusion of face , and drawn to repentance , ( if possible ) which the church , not the magistrate , driveth at . civilian . i have heard it asserted by some learned men , that among the jewes , there was no government nor discipline in the church distinct from the government of the state , yea , that there was no such distinction as church and state , but that the jewish church was the jewish state , and the jewish state the jewish church ; and if it was so among them ( whose formes you take in many particulars for patterns ) i would fain know why it may not be so among us . divine . though the jewish church and common wealth were for the most part not different materially , the same men being members of both , even as in all christian republickes , yet they were formally different one from another , in regard of distinct acts , lawes , courts , officers , censures , and administrations . for , 1. the ceremoniall law given was given to them as a church , the judiciall law given to them as a state . 2. they did not worship , doe sacrifice , pray , praise , &c. as a state ; nor did they kill malefactors with the sword as a church . 3. as the lords matters and the kings matters were distinguished , so there were two different courts for judging of the one and the other , 2. chron. 19.8.11 . fourthly , when the romans took away the jewish state and civill government , yet their church did remain . 5. the government of the state and the constitution thereof was not the same under the judges , under the kings , and after the captivity : shall we therefore say that the church was altered and new moulded , as oft as the civill government was changed . 6. learned master selden hath rightly observed , that those proselytes who were called prosiliti justitiae , though they were initiated into the jewish religion by circumcision , baptisme , and sacrifice ; and were free not only to worship god apart by themselves , but also to come into the church or congregation of the israelites , and did get to themselvs the name of jews : yet were restrained and debarred from dignities , magistracies and preferments , as also from some marriages which were permitted to the israelites . he addeth a simile of strangers initiated and associated into the church of rome , who yet have not the priviledge of roman citizens : whence we gather most apparently a distinction of the jewish church and the jewish state ; for as much as those proselytes were imbodied into the iewish church , and as church-members did communicate in the holy ordinances of god , yet they were not properly members of the iewish state , nor admitted to civil privileges . civilian . but i find no censure nor punishment of offences in the iewish church , except what the civill power did inflict , no such censure as excommunication or separation from the temple , synagoue or ordinances . and since you have cited master selden for you , i will cite him against you , for he saith in his late book , that hee who was separate or excommunicated among the jewes , was not excluded from the temple , sacrifices or holy assemblies , but only debarred from the liberty of civill worship , so that he might not sit within foure cubits of off his companion or neighbour . divine . i shall doe m. selden so much right as to appeal from him to himself , for in another place where he writeth at greater length of the jewish excommunication , he describeth it to have been a separation , not only from the former civill commerce and company in regard of that distance of foure cubits , but also from communicating together in prayer and holy assemblies . and that it was so , it is not only the most received opinion of protestant divines , but even of those who have devoted themselves to the study of the jewish antiquities , such as drusius , iohannes couh , l'empereur , and others . brughton also in his exposition of the lords prayer , pag. 14. &c. tells us that the jewish church and the apostolike church , though they differed about traditions and about the messiah , yet for government they agreed . he giveth instance in these particulars , the rulers of the synagogue , the readers of the law , and the prophets , the qualities of a bishop , or elder , the providing for the poor , the maner of excommunication and absolution , the laws to bridle elders from tyranny : all these are the same in both , saith he . now these men were most exquisitely acquainted with those studies and their testimonies may serve instead of many more that may be added . hereunto that distinction of 3. kinds of excommunication received from elias in thesbyte , niddui , herem , & sammatha , whether we understand as some doe , that niddui was a separation according to the ceremoniall law , and herem the devoting of one to death , and capitall punishment ; or whether we distinguish betwixt niddui & herem ( which two only are mentioned in the law ) as we use to doe betwixt excommunicatio minor , and major ; which is the opin●on of others . civilia●. it may be there was a separation or ejection from the temple , synagogue , & worship , but i deny that this was done judicially or by the sentence of a court , for as m. selden observeth , the very letter of the law , not any judiciall sentence did exclude the unclean from the temple . divine . i answer , men were excluded from the temple and worship , either for ceremoniall or morall uncleanes , the former is particularly determined in the law , the latter not so , but left as a necessary consequence from the law , for if god would have men kept back for ceremonial uncleanes , it may be for touching ( though casually and unwillingly ) a vessell , a seat , a cloth , a body , or somewhat else that was unclean ; surely it was much more his will that such as are morally unclean by a prophane or scandalous life , should not be admitted . however it was necessary that matters of fact should bee examined by a court , whether they did fall within the verge of the law or not . but what will you say , if i give you scripture for excommunication , by a judiciall sentence . ezra 10.8 . we read of a mixed meeting of the princes , elders , priests and levites , where it was decreed that whosoever would not come to ierusalem within 3. dayes , should be punished , with the forfeiture of all his substance ; and himselfe separated from the congregation of those that had been carried away . a double punishment civil and ecclesiastical , forfeiture and excommunication , according as that extraordinary occasion made a conjuncture and concurrence of the civill and the ecclesiasticall sanedrim at that time , lyra , hugo cardinalis , cajetan , and of ours diodati , and lavater , all upon the place ( beside others who cite the place occasionally ) do agree that the separation from the congregation ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} as the 70. read it , it is kahal in the hebrew ) is meant of excommunication from the temple and worship : even as that casting out mentioned , isa 66.5 . so in the new testament this iniquity was established by a law , that whosoever should confesse that jesus was the christ , should be cast out of the synagogue , 10.9.22 . and 12.42 . and 16.2 . civilian . but there is not in all the law of moses any syllable of such an excommunication as you speak of , except you take that to be it , which is often repeated in the law , that soule shall be cut off from among his people . now that may be expounded either of capitall punishment and cutting off by the hand of the magistrate ; or ( as ainsworth and m. selden following the most part of the hebrewes expound it ) of cutting off by the hand of god , that is , th●● god would not suffer such a one to live out halfe his dayes , but take him away by an untimous dea●h . divine . i know that both jewish and christian interpreters have much differed among themselves , in expounding that commination of the law . but i shall only offer my reasons against these two glosses which you have mentioned , and then tell you what i conceive to be the true meaning . to expound all those places of the magistrates cutting off men by death , were to make the laws of god more bloody then draco's : i appeal to your self , doe you thinke it at all credible , that god would have men put to death for eating of the fat , or the blood , though by chance , for making a perfume like the preistly perfume to smell , for touching a dead body , or a grave , or a tent , wherein a man had died , or for touching something which he that was uncleane had touched , and not being sprinkled thereafter with the water of seperation : yet for these and the like ceremomoniall defilements and tresspasses , men were to be cut off from the congregation of israel now for that other exposition , of cutting off by the hand of god , that which they take for the ground and foundation of it , that is , that the cutting off , mentioned in the law , is understood only of private sinnes , known to god only , and which could not be proved by witnesses , this i say , if it could be proved , would indeed make good their interpretation , but the truth is , it is a meere conjecture , for which they have no warrant in the word . nay , the word is against it : for the end of that cutting off , w●s that the children of israel might feare to doe that , which they s●● so sore punished , levit. 17 4.5 . which use they could not make of a divine judgement inflicted for a private sinne . i know they doe further object from levit. 17.10 . & 20.5.6 . that the cutting off , was a work of god , not of men ; but to that i say , it was not so , except in extraordinary cases , when men , who should have cut off the wicked ; did it not : and this appears plainly from levit. 20.4 , 5. and if the people of the land hide their eyes from the man , when he giveth of his seed unto molech , and kill him not : then ( marke then , and in that case ) i will set my face against that man , and against his family , and will cut him off . wherefore i conclude , that the cutting off in the law , and especially , in the ceremoniall law , can be nothing else but excommunication from the church , and communion in the holy things . which as it is most received among our expositors , so the apostle . 1 cor. 5. doth give us a hint of it : for as it is plaine from vers . 6 , 7 , 8. that he alludes to the history of the passover , exod. 12. so when he saith , vers. 13. put away from among your selves that wicked person , he hath respect to , exo. 12.19 . where it it is said , whosoever eateth that which is leavened , even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of israel . all this i conclude with a passage of mr. williams his bloody tenent , cap. 121. where though he doth not acknowledg a spirituall excommunication in the jewish church , yet he acknowledgeth such a coercive power in cutting off , as hath for the antitype and paralell of it excommunication in the ghristian church . out of that blessed temporall estate , ( saith he ) to be cast or carried captive , was their excommunication or casting out of gods sight . 2 kings 17.23 . therefore was the blasph●●●● the false prophet , the idolater , to be cast out , or cut off ●●●m this holy land : which punishment cannot be parrallelld by the punishment of any state or kingdome in the world , but only by the excommunicating or out-casting of person or church from the fellowship of the saints and churches of christ iesus in the gospel ; for this spirituall cutting off , he citeth 1. cor. 5. gal. 5. behold he who hath pleaded most for the liberty of conscience , is forced to acknowledge the censure of excommunication . civilian . but can you show any warrant fro● the new testament for church censures and excommunication , as an institution and ordinance of christ . i know your magna charta , which you pretend to , is mat. 18.17 . tell the church , and if he heare not the church , let him be unto thee , as an heathen man , & a publican . but the sence of that place , i take to be that which was given by erastus and bilson , that is , that in the case of private and civill injuries , the injured party should first of all seek right and reparation of the wrong , of the injuring party , which if it take not effect , then to doe it before witnesses , and if that also prevaile not , then to tell the church , that is the sanedrim of the jewes , which was a civill judicature , and if the man that hath done wrong , will not stand to the sentence of the sanedrim , that then one should deale with him as with an heathen , or a publican , that is , complain of him to the roman emperor or his deputies . mr. prynne , in his late booke called independency examined , pag. 10. following master seldens judgement , holdeth , that by the church , matth. 18.17 . is not meant any ecclesiasticall judicatory , but the civill court , or sanedrim of the jewes , even as ib. pag. 11. he holdeth the assembly of the apostles elders and brethren , act. 15. to be an undeniable scripture authority , for parliaments as well as for synods , to come together upon all like occasions . and as for these words , let him be thee as an heathen and a publicane , he understandeth the meaning to be , that not the church , but the party offended , is to avoid his company : taking the same to be meant , 2 thes. 3.14 . a place which i have also heard alledged for church dicipline , and censures . divine . though mr. prynne be a man much esteemed by me , both for his sufferings , and much good service done by him in the church , yet i must say , he wrongs both the truth and himself , in taking upon him to goe against the whole current of interpreters , antient and moderne , without any evidence of reason : and he must remember , that in these particulars , hee doth not so much oppose the independents , as all the reformed churches , while as he goeth about to throw out of their hands the chief scriptures upon which they ground church discipline . now all the circumstances of the text , make against that exposition , and prove , that it is not a civill , but a spirituall court , which christ there establisheth . for 1. those words , if thy brother trespasse against thee , are not ment of personall or civill injuries ( of which our saviour christ would not be judge , luke 12.14 . ) but as augustine , tostatus , and others doe rightly expound them , they are to be understood , of all manner of scandalls , by which we trespasse against our brother , in as much as we trespasse against the law of charity , which commandeth us to edify one another , and to promote the spirituall good one of another : now when a christian doth not only not edify , but scandalize , which is a deterioration ; yea , ( so farre as lieth in him ) a destruction of his brothers soule ; this is undeniably a great trespasse against his brother : which kind of trespasse , as the king , and head of the church , jesus christ , whose kingdom is not of this world was to take speciall notice of : so the coherence and depend●nce of the text , giveth further evidence , that this , and no other kinde of trespasses is here intended , there being so much spoken of scandalls in the preceeding passages of that chapter . 2. as the case supposed , so the end proposed is spirituall , that is , that the offended brother should reprove the offanding brother ; and tell him his fault , and that for the good of his soul : if he shall heare thee , thou hast gained thy brother ; that is , thou hast rescued his soule by repentance , from sinne , and so from the wrath of god : wherein christ had respect to that law . lev. 19.17 . thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart : thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour , and not suffer sinne upon him . 3. the persons judging , are not civill but ecclesiasticall , tell it unto the church , now in all the new testament , the name of the church is not given to any civill magistrate . nay christ himself doth immediately give us notice , that by the church there he means the ministers and rulers of the church , for thus he applyeth it unto the apostles , and their successors , whatsoever ye shall binde , &c. and if two of you shall agree , &c. and here by the way , i must tell you , that if the jewish sanedrim were here mean● ( as it is not ) you could not thence conclude that a civill court is meant , for there was an ecclesiastical sanedrim , distinct from the civill , as beside many other great authors is proved by constantinus , l' emp. annot. in c●● . middoth , p. 188. and de rep. iud. p. 389. which ecclesiasticall sanedrim were the rather to be understood in this text , because the other sanedrim was destroyed by herod . 4. the way and manner of proceeding , is also ecclesiasticall , not civill ; when church governours meet about those things , it must be with prayer , vers. 19. and it must be in the name of christ , vers. 20. which places , though they well agree to all holy assemblies and meetings for worship , yet the context sheweth , that they are principally intended concerning assemblies for discipline and church censures ; and so tostatus , hugo cardinalis , with our own divines , doe expound the text . 5. the censure is spirituall , as appeareth both by the ●llusion to the jewish excommunication ( of which i have spoken before ) in those words , let him be unto thee as a heathen , or a publican , and by the phrase of binding the soule , or retaining of sinnes , vers. 18. which power , our lord elsewhere giveth to his apostles , mat. 16.19 . io. 20.23 . formes of speech , which no where the scripture useth of any civill power : only it is to be observed , that in these two places last cited , the apostles get power to binde and loose by their doctrine and preaching , but here , mat. 18. to binde and loose by discipline , as appeareth by the use to be made of witnesses , vers. 16. that is , potestas clavium doctrinalis : this potestas clavium disciplinalis . that is misticall : this politicall . and whereas it is objected , that the text saith not , let him be to the church , but , let him be to thee as an heathen and a publican . i answer , it is supposed , that he must be such in the judgement of the church , before he be such to me . this pareus upon the place , proveth from the words that follow , whatsoever ye shall bind , &c. therefore saith he , the church is first to bind him , that is , excommunicate him , and then he is to be to me as an heathen , and a publican . beside , if it were not so , horrible confusion should follow , while as any private man may excommunicate and cast off whomsoever he judgeth to be disobedient to the church , though peradventure he hath no just cause to judge so . 6. it was very farre from the minde of jesus christ , that his disciples should for private injuries prosecute one another , before the roman emperour or his deputie : this being so much blamed by the apostle paul . 1 cor. 6.1 . dare any of you , having a matter against another , got to law before the unjust , vers. 6 , 7. brother go●th to law against brother , and that before the unbeleavers . now therefore , there is utterly a fault amongst you . civilian . can you shew any example or practice of such an excommunication in the new testament : for that place , 1 cor. 5.5 . i doubt shall not prove , there being not only great authors , but great reasons for another exposition , as mo●li●s sheweth in his v●tes . l. 2. tc . 11. namely that this delivering to sathan , was for bodily afflictions and torments , which was not in the power of ordinary ministers to doe , but was a prerogative of the apostles . divine . if you will , i can debate that with you , both from that very text , and from other reasons , that this delivering to sathan , was an act not of the apostle alone , but of the presbytery of corinth , whereby is meant excommunication , which is a cutting off from the fellowship of the church , and so co●sequ●ntly . ● delivering to sathan , who reignes without the church , and holdeth captive at his pleasure the children of disobedience . or if you will , i can take a shorter course with you . for whatsoever may be the meaning of that phrase , tradere satana , it is most plaine , that excommunication is in that chapter , vers. 6 , 7. know ye not , that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lumpe , purge out therefore the old leaven , verse 11. if any man that is called a brother , be a fornicatour , &c. with su●h an one , no no● to ●●●e . vers. 12. doe not ye ●udge them that are within , vers. 13. therefore put away from among your selves that wicked person . 2 cor. 2.6 . sufficient to such a man , is this punishment or censure ) inflicted by many . but i suppose , i shall not need to prove church-censures , and excommunication in the church of c●rin●h : which moulins himself doth fully acknowledge to be held forth in that same place . civilian . i will thinke further upon these things . devine . you may doe so , and withall , read what 〈◊〉 hath written against erastus , and wala●● against wite●●ogardus . civilian . but tell me now your opinion of another matter , and that is concerning liberty of conscience , and toleration of hereticks and se●taries for which there are so many bookes written of late , and so few against i● ▪ i doe not know what you will pronounce of it , from the principles of your profession , but i beleeve , that as in germany , france , holland , poland , yea under the turkish tyranny , contrary religions , and opposite professions and practises , have been , and are tolerated upon state-principles , so it shall be englands unhappinesse , though not to chose , yet to be necessitated to grant such a tolleration , for avoiding a rupture in the kingdome , and for preserving an union against the common enenmy . divine . this question about the toleration of those whose way is different from the common rule which shall be established , must be both stated and resolved , cum ●rano salis . we must remember to distinguish person● from corporations or churches , and both these from errors . againe , to distinguish persons , wh●ther godly and gratious , or loose and libertin , whether moderate and peaceable , or ●actious and turbulent ; whether such as have deserved well o● the publike , or such as have done either no service or a disservice . to distinguish corporation , whether the qu●stion be of such onely as have a present existence , or of all who shall joyne to such a way afterward . to distinguish err●rs , whether practicall or doctrinall onel● ▪ whether fundamentall , or circafundamentall , or neither of the two . to distinguish toleration , whether absolute , or hypotheticall and conditionall , whether anywhere , or in som● few certaine places onely , whether indifinite and generall , or limited and bounded , and if bounded , how far and how much : whether ●uch toleration as may stand with the solemne league and covenant , or such as is inconsistent therewith ; whether such as is profitable for the publike peace , or such as is apparently destructive thereto . these and the like particulars i doe not intend to fall upon at this instant . only this i say , that to open a wide doore , and to grant an unbounded liberty unto all sort of hereticks and sect●ries , ( which is the thing that the good samaritan , and iohn the baptist , the blood , tenent , and others of that kind do plead for as it is inconsistent with the solemne league and covenant of the three kingdomes , by which we are obliged to endeavour the extirpation of popery , prelacie , superstition , heresie and schism● , least we partake in other mens sinnes , and thereby be in danger to receive of their plagues : so it is in the owne nature of it , an error so pernicious , so abominable , so monst●ous , that it maketh all learned men to stand amazed , and taken with horrour , in so much that they can not at first gather their thoughts to put pen to paper against it . i know this liberty and toleration was maintained by the donatists of old and by the socinians , arminians , and anabaptists of late ▪ but it hath beene constantly opposed by all that were sound and orthodoxe , both ancient and moderne , who have asserted the lawfull use of a coercive powe● against those things , whereby ( though under pretence of conscience ) god is openly dishonoured , soules ensnared and destroyed , faith or piety subverted and overthrowne : and further , the compelling of the outward man , though not to the practise of things indifferent ( which compulsion i doe not allow ) yet to the practise of necessary duties , and to the externall use of meanes and ordinances , by which through the blessing of god , mens hearts and consciences may be savingly affected and wrought upon . and i beseech you what else meaneth asa's covenant , that whosoever would not seeke the lord god of israel should be put to death whether small or great , whether man or woman . and what else meaneth iosiahs covenant , whereof it is said , he caused all that were present in ierusalem and benjamin , to stand to it . and what else is that in ezra , that whosoever would not come to ierusalem to make a covenant , and to put away the strange wives , all his substance should be forfeited , and himselfe separated from the congregation of those that had beene carried away , that is , excommunicated . and what else is that other act of iosiah in putting downe the priests of the high places . and what say you to the law of stoning those who did intice the people to turne out of the way wherein the lord commanded them to walke , saying , let us goe after other gods and serve them . civilian . i would rather heare some arguments from the new testament , for i doubt these from the old testament shall be more subject to exception . divine . to me it is plaine , that these things doe as much concerne us now , as the jewes of old , which whosoever denieth , must shew , that either we may take no rules nor patternes from the old testament : or that the foresaid lawes and practises were not intended by the holy ghost to binde us , ( as other things in the old testament doe ) but were ceremoniall and typicall , intended to bind the jewes onely . mr. williams in his bloody tenant ( though i doe not remember that anywhere he answereth to those particular passages which i have cited , yet ) perceiving that such arguments from the old testament can not be taken off without this answer , that all these were typicall and figurative : he therefore goeth much upon that ground , and so deviseth more types and figures in the old testament then ever any body did before him , and pleaseth himselfe with such fancies and conjectures therein , as i dare say , will satisfie no indifferent reader : and in effect making void by his principles all arguments from the old testament , so that we may not from the examples of the godly kings of iudah , teach christian magistrates what their duty is , nor argue thus , god commanded that the kings of iudah should have a copy of the book of the law by them , and read therein , that they should not multiply wives , &c. therefore christian princes should search the scriptures , should not multiply wives , &c. or thus . the priests and levites had a sufficient maintenance . therefore so should the ministers of the gospell : or thus ; the jewes were commanded to rest from all servile labour on the sabbath day . therefore so should christians on the lords day : or thus ; warres were lawfull in the old testament ; therefore they are lawfull still . or the like . all these shall be cast aside , upon this ground , they were tipicall , therefore no patterns to us . but because you desire an argument from the new testament : i will convince your judgement from thence also : sure i am , i have better grounds in the new testament , against the toleration now in question , then master iohn goodwin hath found for it , in his text , act. 5.38.39 . he holdeth that we may build upon gamaliels speech , as authorised by god , there being nothing in all this speech ( excepting only the historicall instances , the truth of which , it seems was generally known , and is attested by iosephus their great historian ) but what is fully consonant with the word of god , saith he . and so he approveth the sceptik principles of that nullifidian , who razeth the very foundation of the christian faith , and maketh it a very doubtfull case whether the apostles doctrine was from god , or from men . but i proceed to my arguments . first , you shall doe well to remember what i said concerning church censutes , from matth. 18. under which scandalous and obstinate delinquents , doe fall , the pretence of conscience , being no exception for them . the ministers of the gospel have in readinesse to revenge all disobedience , 2 cor. 10.6 . the angel of the church of ephesus is commended , because of his zeal , in that he could not beare those who called themselves apostles and were not . revel. 2.2 . contrariwise , the angel of the church of perga●●● is blamed , for this reason , because then hast there them that teach the doctrine of balaam , &c. so hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the nicolaitans . revel. 2.14.15 . that is , because thou hast tolerated them , and hast not cast them out . it is thy fault , that they are there in the church . the like challenge is sent to the angel of the church of thyatira , vers. 20. i have a few things against thee , because thou sufferedst that woman iezebell , who calleth her self a prophetesse , to teach , and to seduce my servants , &c. that chapter is so cleare for the point , that master williams acknowledgeth it proves fully , that christ hath endued the ministers and governours of his church , with power to suppresse heresy and errour , and the spreaders thereof , be who they will be . see the bloody tenent . c. 57. so iohn the baptist . pag. 63. confesseth that the church of thy●●ra was justly taxed , not only for not controuling and reproving iexebel , but also , in that they permitted her to seduce weak christians , without cutting her off by the sword of the spirit , the power of excommunication . civilian . i was about to answer the same , that if those places prove any thing , it is onely the suppressing of hereticks and schismaticks by church censures , not at all by the civill coercive power of the magistrate . divine . i thought with my selfe , i should neede say no more , having proved that heriticks and shismaticks , though miscarrying with so much opinion of conscience , as to thinke themselves apostles or prophets , may be censured and cast out of the church ( which is the case , revel. 2. ) i did never imagine but where the soule is punished with the greatest punishment which can be inflicted on earth , that is , excomunication ; much more may the body be punished by the magistrate , as the degree of the offence shall require : especially considering that the magistrat is a nursing father to the church , and is to protect and assist her , not to suffer her authority and censures to be despised and set at nought . but to satisfie you yet more touching the magistrats part , consider well that passage rom. 13.4 . for he is the minister of god to thee for good , but if thou doe that which is evill be afraid , for he beareth not the sword in vaine : for he is the minister of god , a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evill . civilian . this place and all that you can say in that kind doth not warrant nor iustifie persecution , for the cause of conscience , but onely the punishment of all such evill doers as doe disturbe the peace of the kingdome , or the course of civill justice , oppose magistrats or lawes , traitors , rebells , murtherers , felons , and the like . iohn the baptist pag. 57. saith , if a breach of peace , the civill powers ought to redresse it . 1. tim. 2.1.2 . but for the magistrate to interpose in matters meerly ecclesiasticall , otherwise then spiritually , and as a minister of the gospell , i find no warrant for it , in all the gospel . divine now you are come to your last refuge wherein i know you put great confidence : but i am as confident it cannot serve your turne , which i prove thus , 1. by this tenent you give a more dangerous wound to the power of the civill magistrate then you are aware of , for in stead of m●king him keeper of both tables you make him keeper of the second table on●ly , at least vindex of ● onely , whereas god hath made him as well vindex as custos utriusque tabula . 2. in t●e place i last cited , the apostle maketh no exception nor restriction , but will have all evill doers ( to which category i suppose heretickes and sedu●ers doe belong to be afraid of vengeance by the hand of the magistrate . 3. the apostle there doth once and againe call the magistrate , the minister of god , as it were purposely putting him in mind , that he judgeth not for man but for the lord , and that he is to looke most to things pertaining to god . 4. there may be a coincidencie of those things which you put assunder : for example , suppose a jesuite killing a magistrate ▪ or some other hereticke killing one who hath beene most opposite to him ; or as sometime the case was ) suppose men causing their children to goe through the f●re as a sacrifice to their god molech , all these ( though murthers ) ye●●re done for conscience sake , men being perswaded in their conscience , that they are doing good service to god , as it is said of those that killed the apostles . what say you to that case ▪ shall the punishment of those be persecution for the cause of co●science . 5. i cannot marvell enough , that it should be heard from the mo●th of any christian , that the magistrate is to pun sh injuries done to the state , but not injuries done to the chur●h ▪ that he is to punish those who destroy mens bodies , but not those that destroy mens soules : that whosoever will draw away people from the obedience of the magistrate , and of the law of the land , must not be suffered : but they who will draw away people from the truth of the gospel , and from the wayes of god , such as hymeneus and philetus , who overthrow the faith of some , and their word will eat , as doth a canker , must escape unpunished . and so christian magistrates and states , shall take up the maxime which tacitus tells was holden by tyberius caesar , deorum injurias diis cura esse : but for their part , they shall stand by as gallio did , and care for none of those things . be astonished at this , o ye heavens . civilian . but in the meane time i can tell you one thing , that it is a mighty prejudice that lies in the mindes of many against the prysbetery , that tyranny and rigour doe accompany it . and this now bringeth into my minde some other prejudices . i have seene a booke come from oxford , entituled , an answer by letter to a worthy gentleman , who desired of a divine some reasons , by which it might appeare how inconsistent presbyteriall government is with monarchy . in which i finde many things which breed an odium of that government . among other things , it tells me , that this is one of the articles of the presbyterian faith . no minister preaching in publike , sedition or treason or railing at king , councell , the prince , iudges , is accountable , or punishable by king , parliament , councell , or any indicature whatsoever . but from all hee may appeale to the sanhedrum or consistory , as the sole and proper competent iudge . and as if this were a small thing not to subject to the magisteate , they will have the magistrate subject to them , insomuch that they may excommunicate the magistrate , even the king himselfe if he obey them not : that the presbytery hindereth the liberty of trade and commerce , disgraceth and desameth young women for conversing familiarly with men , suffereth not land-lords to sue for their rents , and the like . that they bring all cases and causes under their cognition and judgement , sub formalitate scandali , under the notion of scandall , and for the glory of god . it tells also a number of stories and practicall examples for confirmation of those particulars . what say you to that ? divine . i have seen and read the book , which surely was written by the speciall inspiration of the father of lies , that the ●mple people who never yet sawe a presbytery , may be made afraid of it , as of some hellish monster , as the french friars made the people beleeve , that the hugonots were ugly monsters with swines faces , and asses eares . but men of understanding will not be taken with such bold and shamelesse calumnies as come from the pen of that son of belial . i could name both the author , and the lying records of a persecuting prelate , whence he borrowed his stories , in which there are many known untruths ; and where there is any truth in the matters of fact which he relates , there is such addition of his own interpretations of mens actions , such variation of circumstances , and such concealing of the true grounds , ends , and circumstances of such actions , as maketh them to appear quite another thing then they were . and if his stories of the speeches , actions , or opinions of particular men were all true ( as they are not ) yet how doth that prove that presbyteriall government is inconsistent with monarchy . magistracie , laws , trading , peace . &c. this must be proved from the principles or necessarie concomitants of presbyteriall government , not from the actions or speeches of this or that private man , especially they having so said or done not in any reference to presbyteriall government , but occasionally in reference to such or such persons or purposes . as now if i should rake up the dunghill of all the treasons , conspiracies , oppressions , persecutions , adulteries , blasphemies , heresies , atheisticall opinions , superstitions , prophanities of such or such prelates , ( of which the histories of former times and late experience are full ) and thence conclude that episcopall government is inconsistent with monarchy , with the safety of the kingdome , with the liberty of the subject , with the peace of the church , with piety , &c. surely that same author would be ready to answer me , that this must be proved from their received principles , nor from particular practises . now that ministers preaching treason , or committing any other trespasse punishable by the law of the land , is not to be judged by the civill magistrate , nor any civill court , but may appeale from all these to the ecclesiasticall judicatory , is none of our principles : but it is a popish and prelaticall usurpation , as appeareth by the brittish ecclesiasticall constitutions , collected by spel●●an . so that the oxfordian missed his mark extreamly when he charged it upon presbyterians , who hold that ministers are as much subject unto , and as punishable by the magistrate , as any other of the subjects . and as ministers are subject to every ordinance of man , so we suppose the christian magistrate will not take it ill to be subject to all the ordinances of jesus christ , i shall give you a short but clear account of our judgement concerning both these , in the words of the second book of the discipline of the church of scotland , chap. 1. as ministers are subject to the judgement and punishment of the magistrate in externall things , if they offend : so ought the magistrates to submit themselves to the discipline of the church , if they transgresse in matters of c●●science and religion . and lest you should think this proper to the classicall and synodicall government : m. cotton will tell you it is just so in the congregationall government , of the keyes of the kingdome of heaven , pag. 53. as the church ( saith he ) is subject to the sword of the magistrate in things which concerne the civill peace : so the magistrate ( if christian ) is subject to the keyes of the church , in matters which concerne the peace of his conscience , and the kingdom of heaven . the latter cannot bee denied in thesi , no more then the former : and when it comes to the hypothesis , there is much to bee trusted to the prudence and discretion of pastors and ruling elders ; and when all comes to all , the failing is more like to be in the defect , then in the excesse . but to say , that a magistrate , because a magistrate , is not bound in conscience to submit himselfe to the ordinance of discipline , though he shedde innocent blood , commit adultery , bl●spheame the name of god , &c. may inferre for ought i know , that a magistrate is not bound to be subject to any of all the ordinances of jesus christ . it is condemned as an error in plato , that he held it lawfull for a magistrate to make an officious lie , for the good of the common-wealth ; but not lawfull for a subject . the error of our civilians is greater , who will have magistrates so to rule us , that christ shall not rule them . civilian . i suppose it is high time to adjourne , till we 〈◊〉 another occasion of amicable and free confe●e●● which time it is like enough our opinions ●●y●● 〈◊〉 accord . the points of which we have talked a●● 〈◊〉 many and weighty , which therefore i will take to 〈◊〉 second thoughts . and so much for this time , far 〈◊〉 . divine . consider what i say , and the lord give you understand●●● in all things . finis . errata . pag. 12. l. 20. country , read county . p. 15. l. 13. op●●r . up●● p● l. 2. 3. civill worship , r. civill fellowship . ibid. l. 15. c●●●● , r , 〈◊〉 ibid. in marg. redbat , r. redibat . p. 21.10 . that , r. adde that . p. 〈◊〉 l. 13. care , r. law . ibid. ex , r. & . p. 30. l. 17. witen●ogurdus , r. 〈◊〉 bogurdus . smaller errors and punctations , and the like , the 〈◊〉 der will pardon . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a42764e-220 * deut. 23.15 . * ●●al . 78.34 . caiv. opuse . de s●andalis gu●s evang●l● pro 〈◊〉 la●●● in germanian 〈◊〉 , & ●●●zae adbuc e●sent corum 〈◊〉 , qu● ad tuendam bonam causam videbantur animati , ha●que f●●ucia susceptum esset luctuosum b●c bellum , quodque , insel●c●ter● 〈◊〉 : ●rectis ● magnas spes , p●rt●s nostrae animis ; d●xi al quando publ●è , plus à nostra , quàm hostium victoria , nobis instare pericul●●● eque enim tam● m●tuenda● esse ullas clades , quàm n●m●s triumpha●e , ●t ita loquar , evangelium , quod nos adinsolentiam efferret . no● vero me i●ius voc●s bod●e quoque paenites . nisi prophanae licentiae dominis matu . e obviam ●●sset , morbus fu●sset temporis successis procemodum incurab●lis . nulle dollrinae piisgu● monitionibus fuisset authoritas , &c. act. & monu vol. z. p. 1373. edit. 1583. in vit. iul. agri● . matth. 6.33 . m●l 3.10 . isa. 2● . 1.1 . 〈◊〉 ● . 30 . 〈…〉 . 〈…〉 p●●l . 2●● . antiqd . 8 c. 2. hag. 1.2 . de repub. l. ● . c. 12. quicunque principes atque re●pub . semet ipsas conservare cupiunt , in id unum prae caeteris , incumbere debeu● , ut verum religionis cul●umrecte instituant & vanerentur . et infra , quod si haec tam d●ligens cura divini cultus , à reipub. christian● princip●bus observata esset , secundum primā institutionem , & praecepta ejus , qui illam nobis primum tradidit : longe majori faelicitate , a● pace in orbe christi●●● frueremur . valerius maximus l. 1. c. 2. gives us fix instances of examplarie judgements among the romans ; which were observed to fall upon such as despised religion , & the honour of the gods . iob. 10.2 . 1. cor. 3.18 . rom. 12.2 . luk. 16.10 . 1. king. 12.33 . isa 22.21 , 2● . luk. 1.33 . tr●ct . 62. in acta . de jure natur . & gentium . l● . 2. cap. 4. proselytus iustitiae , utcunque nova●o patriae nom●ne iudaeus d●c●●tur , no● tam quidem ●●vis iudaicus simpliciter censendus esset quam peregrinus semper cu● jur● quamplirima ●●ter cives . s●lden . loc. citat . de anno civili iudaeor cap 18. neque enimà templo , sacrificiis , aut conv u●ib●s sacris om●ino quis apud cos ex sententia ●liqua excommunicationis , sive sivensi , sive alia hum●na arcendus er●● . solden de ihre natur . & gent. li. 4. c. 9. atque 〈◊〉 plane à communicatione orationis , & conventus , & omnis sancti commerci● relegabatur , ●●●madmodum ae hujusmodi an●themate , sub i●itii● ecclesiae christianae loquitur tertullianus . drusius quast. & resp. lib. 1. quaest. 9. solcbant autem vet●res ( judaei ) si qui● gravius deliquerat , primum eum mavere caelu ecclesiastico : si non emendabat se , tum feritbant anathemate : quod si ne tum quidem redbat ad frugem , ultimo at postremo loco sa●●tizaba●t . iohannes coch. annot. in exc gemar . sanedrim . cap. 1. qui simpliciter excommunicatu● est ( menud●e ) est ille quidem separatus à caetu , it a ut provero membro ecclesiae non habeatur . dr. buxt●rf . dissert. de literis hebraeor . th . 49. hath observed a notable passage in pirke , and in iela●●●d●un , which maketh much for this po'nt in hand . it is concerning the samaritans , who being circumcised by two elders of israel sent to them , and having received the book of the law , were afterwards upon just causes excommunicated by ezra . quid secit esr●● & zerubbabel filius shealtiel , & iehosua filius iehozadek ? convocaverunt totum caetum in templum domini , & ve●●re fecerunt trecentos sacerdotes , tr●centos pueros , trecentas buccinas , & trecentos libros legis i● manu ●orum , qui elangeba●t , levitae ●●o canebant & psallebant , & excommunicabant ( i● lelammeden● {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} that is , they did excommunicate in all the three degrees or kinds of excommunication ) cutheos per secretum nominis tetragrammati , & per scripturam quae scripta suit in tabulis , & per anathema domus iudicii superioris , & per anathema judicii inferioris ; ne quis unquam ex israele comederet panem cuthaei , unde dixerunt ; quisquis comederit carnem cuthei , perinde est ac si comederet carnem perei : it●● ne quisquam cuthaeum faceret proselytum , h. c. in iuda snum reciperet , &c. whereby it is manifest , that the jewish excommunication was a shutting out as well from sacred as from civill communion , and that by publick authority . de anno civili , cap. 18. exod. 30.38 lev. 7.15.17 . num. 29.13 . 20. c●rtum quid●m e●t , pa●lum ve●l● bun● incestum ●overi c●mmunion● ec●lesia : ● d i● vu't fier● ab i●sa ecclesia : cori●t●iaca , dice●s , vers. 13. tollite ilium s●●leratum de medio vestrum v●lt ●nim id fieri mi●i●terii ordinarii ●●●h●rit●te m●lia . uttes , lib. 2. ●ap . 11. 2 chro. 15.13 . 2 chro 34.32 . ezra 10.8 . 2 kings 23.5 . deut. 13.5 . 6. deut. 17.17 , 18 , 19. isay 49.23 . 2 chro. 19.6 . ●o . 16. ● . 2 tim. 2.17 , 18 act. 18.17 . pag. 76. pag. 26. pag. 13 , 14.15 . ●●●el . ●●●●aen . , tom . 1. pag. 413 nullus au●em rex bab●t porestatem constituend . prectium super aliquem ecclesiasticum sacris or denibus obligatum , vel super membra , vel sanguinem , vel saraed ejus , vel super aliquem de suis , qu●a quisque ecclesiast : cus ut praedictus , babet potest●tē per leg●m ecclesiasticam orob . and in synodo , quodl●be : nocum●atum vel da●mum qued ei l●icus sa●iat , aut rex aut alius . item nu●rtenus tales ecclesiasticus potest compells ad re●pond●●●●● ali●●●i extra synodum , de delict is s●bi oppositis . du●●nus de sacr. ecci . minist ●i 1. c. 2. canfesseth that de causes civilibus clericorum , nan sacerdotes elim , sed praesi●es & mgis magistratus ●●● s●●●ant , &c. verum constitutiones romanorum pontisicum , hu●e juri uon parum derogevorun● quibus ca●cum est n●n so'um ut clevici ad mag str●t●s tribunal i●●viti non trabantur , s●d ut ●● v●lo●tes ●uidem jurisdictioni magstratus se subj●cere pas●●nl , s●ve civ●lis sit , sive criminal●s camsa . the primitive rule of reformation delivered in a sermon before his maiesty at whitehall, feb. 1, 1662 in vindication of our church against the novelties of rome by tho. pierce. pierce, thomas, 1622-1691. 1663 approx. 93 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 23 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2003-11 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a54850 wing p2192 estc r28152 10433036 ocm 10433036 45018 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a54850) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 45018) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1388:20) the primitive rule of reformation delivered in a sermon before his maiesty at whitehall, feb. 1, 1662 in vindication of our church against the novelties of rome by tho. pierce. pierce, thomas, 1622-1691. the sixt edition, more correct then the london impressions / [6], 37 p. printed by h.h. for ric. royston and ric. davis, oxford : 1663. "published by his majesties special command." reproduction of original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng catholic church -controversial literature. reformation -england -sermons. 2003-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-08 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-09 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2003-09 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the primitive rule of reformation . delivered in a sermon before his maiesty at vvhitehall , feb. 1. 1662. in vindication of our chvrch . against the novelties of rome . by tho : pierce , d. d. chaplain in ordinary to his majesty , and president of magdalen college in oxon . published by his majesties special command . the sixt edition , more correct then the london impressions : by the consent of the author . oxford , printed by h. h. for ric. royston bookseller to his sacred majesty , and ric. davis in oxon. 1663. to the high and mighty monarch charles the ii d : by the grace of god , king of great britain , france and ireland , defender of the faith. most gratious and dread soveraign , that which never had been expos'd unto a wittily-mistaking and crooked world , but in a dutiful submission to your command ; may at least for this , if for no other reason , be justly offer'd to your protection . and this is done with a steady , though humble confidence of success ; because the defender of the faith * which was once deliver'd unto the saints , cannot possibly chuse but be so to him , who does earnestly contend for the very same , because for no other faith then that which was from the beginning . if for this i have contended with as much earnestness from the pulpit , as the romanists from the press do contend against it ; i have not only the * exhortation and authority of a text , but the exigence of the time to excuse me in it . now as the romans in the time of the second punick war , could not think of a fitter way for the driving of hanibal out of italy , then scipio's marching with an army out of italy into afrique , giving hanibal a necessity to go from rome , for the raising of the siege which was laid to carthage ; so could i not think of a fitter course to disappoint the pontificians in their attempts on our church , then thus by making it their task to view the infirmities of their own . to which effect i was excited to spend my self , and to be spent , ( if i may speak in the phrase of our great apostle , ) not from an arrogant opinion of any sufficiency in my self , ( who am one of the least among the regular sons of the church of england ; ) but as relying on the sufficiency of the cause i took in hand , & especially on the help of the all-sufficient , who often loves to make use of the weakest instruments , to effect the bringing down of the strongest holds . i suppose my discourse , however innocent in it self , will yet be likely to meet with many , not onely learned and subtil , but restless enemies ; men of pleasant insinuations , and very plausible ▪ snares ; nay , such as are apt ( where they have power ) to * confute their opponents by fire and faggot . but when i consider how well my margin does lend protection on to my text , ( for i reckon that my citations , which i could not with prudence represent out of a pulpit , are the usefullest part of my whole performance , because the evidence and vvarrant of all the rest ; ) i cannot fearfully apprehend , what vvit or language ( or ill us'd learning ) can do against it , so far forth as it is arm'd with notoriety of fact in its vindication ; and hath the published confessions of those their ablest hyperaspistae , who cannot certainly by them of their own perswasion , with honor , or safety , be contradicted . if they are guilty in their writings , it is rather their own , then their readers fault ; nor is it their readers , but their misfortune , if they are found so to be by their own concessions . nor can they rationally be angry at their reader 's necessity to believe them ; especially when they write with so becoming a proof of impartiality , as that by which they asperse and accuse themselves . if it finally shall appear , they are * condemn'd out of their mouthes , ( as goliah's head was cut off by david , not with david's , but with goliah's own sword , ) and that i am not so severe in taking notice of their confessions , as they have been unto themselves in the printing of them , ( for i cannot be said to have revealed any secrets , by meerly shewing before the sun , what they have sent into the light , ) i think , however they may have appetite , they cannot have reason to complain . i have intreated of many subjects within the compass of an hour , on each of which it would be easie to spend a year . but i have spoken most at large of the supremacy of the pope ; as well because it is a point wherein the honor and safety of your majesties dominions are most concern'd , as because it is the chief , if not only hinge , ( i have * bellarmines assertion for what i say , ) on which does hang the whole stress of the papal fabrick . if herein , as i have obey'd , i shall also be found to have serv'd your majesty , the sole discharge of my duty will be abundantly my reward ; because i am not more by conscience and obligations of gratitude , then by the voluntary bent and inclinations of my soul , your majesties most devoted and most dutiful subject and chaplain , thomas pierce . matth . xix . 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . but from the beginning it was not so . there are but very few things either so little , or so great , whether in art , or nature , whether in politie , or religion , which are not willing to take advantage from the meer credit of their an●iquity . first for art ; any part of philosophy penn'd by hermes trismegistus , any script of geography bearing the name of anaximander , any musical composition sung by amphion to his harp , any piece of the mathematicks said to be writ by zoroastres , any relique of carved worke from inspir'd bezaleel , or any remnant of embroidery from the theopneust aholiab , would at least for the honor of being reckon'd to be the first , be also reckon'd to be the best of any antiquarie's keimelia . and as it is in the things of art , so is it also in those of nature . how do the gentlemen of venice delight themselves in their antiquity ? and yet they travel for their o●iginal no farther back then the siege of troy : whereas the arcadians derive their pedigree even from iupiter and calisto , and will needs have their nation exceed the moon in seniority . nay , though aegypt ( in the judgment of * diodorus the siceleote ) hath better pretensions then any other , yet the barbarians as well as greeks have still affected a primogeniture . nay so far has this ambition transported some , that they will needs have been begun from before the protoplast , as it were itching to be as old as the iulian period , 764 years before the beginning of the vvorld . thus antiquity hath been courted in art and nature . if in the third place we come to politie , we shall find customs gaining reverence from the sole merit of their duration . and as a custom by meer continuance does wear it self into a law ; so the more aged a law is grown , the less 't is liable to a repeal ; by how much the more it is stricken in years , by so much the less it is decrepit : and that for this reason , because the longer it endures , the more it inclines to its perfection ; that is to say , its immortality . last of all for religion , the case is clear out of tertullian . id verius quod prius , id prius quod ab initio . that religion was the truest , which was the first ; and that the first , which was from the beginning . and as he against marcion , so iustin martyr against the grecians , did prove the divinity of the pentateuch from the antiquity of its vvriter . the iewes enjoy'd the first lawgiver † by the confession of the gentiles . moses preached the god of abraham , whilst thales milesius was yet unborn . nor was it a thing to be imagin'd , that god should suffer the devil to have a chappel in the world , before himself had any church . and thence * vincentius lirin●nsis , to prove the truth of any doctrine , or the l●gality of a practice , does argue the case from a threefold topick ; the universality , the consent , and the antiquity of a tradition . which rule if we apply unto the scope of this text , as it stands in relation unto the context , we shall have more to say for it then for most constitutions , divine , or humane : for that of mariage is almost as old as nature . there was no sooner one man , but god divided him into two ; and then no sooner were there two , but he united them into one . this is that sacred institution which was made with mankind in a state of innocence ; the very ground and foundation of all both sacred and civil government . it was by sending back the pharisees to the most venerable antiquity , that our lord here asserted the law of wedlock , against the old custom of their divorce . whilst they had made themselves drunk with their muddy streams , he directed them to the fountain , to drink themselues into sobriety . they insisted altogether on the mosaical dispensation ; but he endeavour'd to reform them by the most primitive institution . they alledged a custom , b●t he a law. they a permission , and that from moses ; but he a precept , and that from god. they did reckon from afar off ; but not , as he , from the beginning . in that one question of the pharisees , * vvhy did moses command us to give her a writing of divorce , and to put her away ? they put a fallacy upon christ , call'd plurium interrogationum . for moses onely permitted them to put her away ; but commanded the● ( if they did ) to give her a writing of divorce . and accordingly their fallacy is detected by christ in his answer to them . moses ( did not command , but meerly ) * suffer'd you in your custom of making unjustifiable divorcements . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he permitted , that is to say , he did not punish it ; not allowing it as good , but winking at it as the lesser of two great evils . he suffer'd it to be safe in foro soli ; could not secure you from the guilt , for which you must answer in foro poli . and why did he suffer what he could not approve ? not for the softness of your heads , which made you ignorant of your duties ; but for the hardness of your hearts , which made you resolute not to do them : you were so barbarous and brutish upon every slight cause , ( or occasion rather , ) that if you might not put her away , you would use her worse . you would many times beat , and sometimes murder , sometimes bury her alive , by bringing another into her bed. so that the liberty of divorce , however a poyson in it self , was ( through the hardness of your hearts ) permitted to you for an antidote : but from the beginning it was not so . and you must put a wide difference betwixt an indulgence of man , and a law of god. to state the controversie aright , you must compare the first precept with your customary practice ; not reckoning as far as from moses onely , but as far as from adam too ; you must not onely look forward from the year of the creation 2400. but backward from thence unto the year of the creation . the way to understand the husband's duty towards the vvife , ( and so to reform , as not to innovate , ) is to consider the words of god when he made the vvife out of the husband . for * he that made them at the beginning made them male and female , and said † for this cause , shall a man leave father , and mother , and shall cleave unto his wife , and they twain shall be one flesh. vvhat therefore god hath joyn'd together , let not man put asunder . the antecedent command was from god the father ; the command in the sequel from god the son. and though the practice of the iewes had been contrariant to them both , by a prescription almost as old as two thousand years ; yet as old as it was , 't was but an overgrown innovation . for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , from the beginning it was not so . thus our saviour , being sent to reform the iews , made known the rule of his reformation . and the lesson which it affords us is ( in my poor judgment ) of great importance . for when the doctrine or discipline of our church establisht here in england shall be attempted by the corruptions of moderne * pharisees , who shall assert against us ( as these here did against our saviour ) either their forreign superstitions , ( to say no worse ) or their domestick profanations , ( to , say no more ; ) we cannot better deal with them , then as our saviour here dealt with the ancient pharisees ; that is , we cannot better put them to shame & silence , then by demonstrating the novelty and base extraction of their pretensions , whilst we evince at the same instant the sacred antiquity of our owne . when they obtrude their revelations , or teach for doctrines of god the meer commandments of men , we must aske them every one , how they read in the beginning . we may not draw out of their ditches , be the currents never so long , whilst we have waters of our own of a nobler taste , which we can easily trace back to the crystal spring . and first of all it concernes us to marke the emphasis , which our ancient of dayes thought fit to put on the beginning , that no inferior antiquity may be in danger to deceive us . for there is hardly any heresie or usurpation in the church , which may not truly pretend to some great antiquity , though not so old as the old man , much lesse as the old serpent . a the disciplinarians may fetch theirs from as far as the heretick ●●rius ; who wanting merit to advance him from a presbyter to a bishop , wanted not arrogance and envy to lessen the bishop into a presbyter . but his antiquity is a iunior , as well to that of the anabaptists , as to that of the socinians . for the b anabaptists may boast they are as old as agrippinus , and the c socinians as sabellius . the d solifidians and antinomians are come as far as from eunomius . the e ranters from carpocrates . the f millenaries from papias . the irrespective g reprobatarians from simon magus and the manichees . the pontificians ( like the mahumetans ) have such a rhapsody of religion , a religion so compounded of several errors and corruptions , ( which yet are blended with many doctrines most sound and orthodox , ) that to find out the age of their severall ingredients , it will be necessary to rake into several times too . the great palladium of the conclave , the famous point of infallibility ( which if you take away from them , down goes their troy , it being absolutely impossible that the learned members of such a church should glibly ●wallow so many errors , unless by swallowing this first , that she cannot erre ; ) i say , the point of infallibility ( which is a very old article of their very new creed , a creed not perfected by its composers until the council at trent , ) we cannot better derive then from the scholars of a marcus in ●renaeus , or from the gnosticks in b epiphanius . they had their purgatory from c origen , ( one of the best indeed in one kind , but in another one of the worst of our antient writers , not onely an heretick , but an haeresiarcha , ) or at the farthest from tertullian , who had it from no better authour then the d arch-heretick montanus . nor does bellarmine mend the matter , by deriving it as far as from virgil's aeneid , and from tully in his tale of the dream of scipio , and farther yet from plato's gorgias ; unless he thinks that an heathen is any whit fitter then an heretick , to give advantage to a point of the roman faith. their denial of marriage to all that enter into the priesthood , is dated by themselves but from pope e calixtus . their f transubstantiation is from the lateran council . their g half-communion is no older then since the times of aquinas ; unless they will own it from the manichees , to give it the credit of more antiquity . their publick praying before the people in an unknown tongue , may be fetcht indeed as far as from gregory the great . their invocation of saints departed is no doubt an aged error , though not so aged as they would have it for the gaining of honour to the invention ; because st. austin does h deny it to have been in his days . and ( not to be endless in the beginning of such a limited discourse , as must not presume to exceed an hour ; though in so fruitfull a field of matter , 't is very difficult not to be endlesse ; ) i the vniversall superintendency or supremacy of the pope hath been a visible usurpation ever since boniface the third . and so our adversaries of rome have more to plead for their errours then all the rest , because the rest were but as mushroms in their severall times , soon starting up , and as soon cut down ; whereas the errours of rome do enjoy the pretence of duration too . but touching each of those errours , ( i mean the errors of their practice , as well as iudgment , ) we can say with our saviour in his present correption of the pharisees , ( whose error was older and more authentick , that is , by moses his permission had more appearance of authority , and more to be pleaded in its excuse , then those we find in the church of rome , ) that fro●n the beginning it was not so ; and we care not whence they come , unlesse they come from the beginning . indeed in matters of meer indifference which are brought into the government or outward discipline of the church , every church has the liberty to make her own constitutions , not asking leave of her sisters , much less her children ; onely they must not be reputed as things without which there is no salvation , nor be obtruded upon the people amongst the articles of their faith. we are to look upon nothing so , but as it comes to us from the beginning . and this has ever been the rule ( i mean the warrantable rule ) whereby to improve or reform a church . when esdras was intent on the re-building of the temple , he sent not to ephesus , much lesse to rome ; he did not imitate diana's temple , nor enquire into the rituals of numa pompilius ; but had recourse for a temple , to that of solomon , and for a ritual , to that of moses , as having both been prescribed by god himself . and yet we know the prophet haggai made the people steep their ioy in a showre of tears , by representing how much the copy had faln short of the original . the holy prophets in the old testament , shewing the way to a reformation , advis'd the princes and the people to aske after the old paths , and walk therein , as being the onely good way for the finding of rest unto their souls , jer. 6. 16. the prophet isaiah sought to regulate what was amisse amongst the iewes , by bidding them have recourse unto the law and the testimony : should not a people ●eek unto their god ? if any speak not according to this word , it is because there is no light in them , isa. 8. 19 20. and accordingly their kings , who took a care to reform abuses , are in this solemn style commended for it , that they walked in the ways of their father david ; that is , reform'd what was amisse by what had been from the beginning . so st. paul in the new testament , setting right what was crooked about the supper of the lord in the church of corinth , laid his line to that rule which he was sure he had receiv'd from the lord himselfe , 1 cor. 11. 23. and thus our saviour in my text , finding the pharisees very fond of a vicious practice , which supported it self by an old tradition , and had something of moses to give it countenance in the world , ( though indeed no more then a bare permission , ) could not think of a better way to make them sensible of their error , ( and such an error as was their sin too , ) then by shewing them the great and important difference betwixt an old , and a primitive custome ; and that however their breach of wedlock had been without check from the days of yore , yet 't was for this to be reform'd , that 't was not so from the beginning . in a most dutifull conformity to which example , our reformers here in england ( of happy memory ) having discover'd in every part of the church of rome , not onely horrible corruptions in point of practice , but hideous errors in point of doctrine , and that in matters of faith too , ( as i shall find an occasion to shew anon ; ) and having found by what degrees the severall errors and corruptions were slily brought into the church , as well as the several times and seasons wherein the novelties received their birth and breeding ; and presently after taking notice , that in the council of trent the roman partisans were not afraid to make a new articles of faith , whilst the sacrifice of the mass , the doctrine of purgatory , the invocation of saints , the worship of images , and the like , were commanded to be embraced under pain of damnation , ( as it were in contempt of the apostle's denuntiation , gal. 1. 8. by which that practice of those conspirators made them liaable to a curse ; ) and farther yet , that in the canon of the fourth session of that council , the roman church was made to differ as well from her ancient and purer self , as from all other churches besides her self , in that there were many meerly humane ( i do not say profane ) vvritings , and many unwritten traditions also , not only decreed to be of b equal authority with the scriptures , but with the addition of an * anathema to all that should not so receive them : this ( i say ) being consider'd aud laid to heart by our reformers , ( by our kings , and our clergy , and laiety too , met together in their greatest both ecclesiastical and civil councils , ) they did not consult with flesh and bloud , or expect the court of rome should become their physician , which was indeed their great disease ; but having recourse unto the scriptures and primitive fathers of the church , they consulted those oracles how things stood from the beginning : and onely separating from them , whom they found to have been separatists from the primitive church , they therefore made a secession , that they might not partake of the romane schisme . and whilst they made a secession for fear of schism ; ( which by no other practice could be avoided , ) they studiously kept to the golden mean ; neither destroying the body out of hatred to the ulcers with which 't was spred , nor yet retaining any ulcer in a passionate dotage upon the body . one remarkable infirmity it is obvious to observe in the popish writers : they ever complaine we have left their church ; but never shew us that iota , as to which we have left the word of god , or the apostles , or the yet uncorrupted and primitive church , or the four first generall councils . we are so zealous for antiquity , ( provided it be but antique enough , ) that we never have despised a meer tradition , which we could track by sure footsteps from as far as the times of the purest christians . but this is still their childish fallacy , ( be it spoken to the shame of their greatest giants in dispute , who still vouchsafe to be guilty of it , ) that they confidently shut up the church in rome , as their seniors the donatists once did in africk ; and please to call it the catholick church , not formally , but causally , ( saith cardinal peron , ) because forsooth that particular doth infuse universality into all other churches besides it self : the learned cardinal forgetting , ( which is often the effect of his very good memory , ) that the preaching of christ was to begin at a ierusalem . so it was in the prophesie , ( isa. 2. 3. mic. 4. 2. ) and so in the completion , ( luke 24. 47. ) nor was it rome , but antioch , in which the disciples were first call'd christians , ( act. 11. 26. ) at b antioch therefore there was a church , before st. peter went thence to rome . nay 't is expresly affirm'd by c gildas , ( an author very much revered by the romanists themselves , ) that christianity was in britain in the latter time of tiberius caesar ; some while after whose death , 't is known that st. peter remain'd in iewry . so that rome which pretends to be a mother , can be no more at the best then a sister-church , and not the eldest sister neither . neglecting therefore the pretended universality of the roman ( that is to say , of a particular ) church ; let us compare her innovations with what we find from the beginning . for this i take to be the fittest and the most profitable use , that we can make of the subject we have in hand . and first , consider we the supremacy or universall pastorship of her popes : which is indeed a very old , and somewhat a prosperous vsurpation ; an usurpation which took its rise from more then a thousand years ago . but then , besides that it was sold by the emperour a phocas , at once an b heretick and a regicide , the devillish murderer of mauritius , ( who was the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the royall image or type of our late royall martyr of sacred memory ; ) i say , besides that it was sold by the most execrable phocas , that is to say , by the greatest villain in the world , excepting cromwell and pontius pilate ; and besides that it was sold to ambitious boniface the third , whose vile compliance with that phocas was the bribe or price with which he bought it : and besides that it was done , not out of reverence to the pope , but in c displeasure to cyriacus of constantinople , who ( from iohn d his predecessor ) usurpt the title of vniversall before any pope had pretended to it : i say , besides , or without all this , it is sufficient for us to say , what our saviour here said to the ancient pharisees , that from the beginning it was not so . for looking back to the beginning , we find the wall of god's city had twelve foundations , and in them were the names of the twelve apostles of the lamb. ( rev. 21. 14 ) paul was equal at least to peter , when he withstood him to the face , and rebuked him in publick for his dissimulation . ( gal. 2. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 ) nay st. peter himself , ( as well as iames and iohn , who were his peers , ) although he seemed to be a pillar , yet perceiving the grace that was given to paul , gave to barnabas and paul the right hand of fellowship ( gal. 2. 9. ) and reason good : for s. peter was but one of the many apostles of the iewes ; whereas st. paul was much more , the great apostle of the gentiles , to whom the iewes were no more then as a river to an ocean . saint peter was commanded not to fleece , but to * feed the flock : nor was it ever once known that he did lord it over god's heritage , which himself had so strictly forbid to others , 1 pet. 5. 3. indeed a primacy of order may very easily be allow'd to the see of rome : but for any one bishop to affect over his brethren a supremacy of power and iurisdiction , is a most impudent opposition both to the letter and the sense of our saviour's precept , ( mark 10. 42 , 43 , 44. ) ye know , that they who are accounted to rule over the gentiles , exercise lordship over them , and their greaton●s exercise authority upon them . but so shall it not be among you : but whosoever will be great among you , shall be your minister ; and whosoever of you will be the chiefest , shall be the servant of all . that the apostles were every one of equal power and authority , is the positive saying of a st. cyprian , pari consortio praediti & honoris & potestatis . and st. ierome is as expresse , that b all bishops , in all places , whether at rome , or at eugubium , at constantinople , or at rhegium , are of the very same merit , as to the quality of their office ; how much soever they may differ in point of revenue or of endowments . nay , by the canons of the two first general councils , ( nice , and constantinople , ) every c patriarch and bishop is appointed to be chief in his proper diocese ; as the bishop of rome is the chief in his : and a strict d injunction is laid on all , ( the bishop of rome not excepted , ) that they presume not to meddle in any diocese but their own . and the chief primacies of order were granted to rome and to constantinople , not for their having been the sees of such or such an apostle , e but for being the two seats of the two great empires . witness the famous canon of the generall council at chalcedon , f decreeing to the bishop of constantinople an equality of priviledges with the bishop of rome ; not for any other reason , then its having the good hap to be one of the two imperial cities . nay , no longer ago before boniface the third , ( who was the first bishop of rome that usurpt the title of universal , ) i say , no longer before him then his next immediate predecessor pope gregory the great , ( for i reckon sabinian was but a cypher , ) the horrible pride of succeeding popes was stigmatiz'd by a prolepsis ; by way ( not of prophecy , but ) of anticipation . for g gregory writing to mauritius the then reigning emperour ( and that in very many epistles , ) touching the name of universal , which the bishop of constantinople had vainly taken unto himself , calls it a wicked and profane and blasphemous title ; a title importing , that the h times of antichrist were at hand ; ( little thinking that pope boniface would presently after his decease usurp the same , and prove the pope to be antichrist by the confession of a pope . ) he farther disputed against the title by an argument leading ad absurdum ; i that if any one bishop were universal , there would by consequence be a failing of the universal church , upon the failing of such a bishop . an argument ; ad homines , not easily to be answer'd , whatsoever infirmity it may labour with in it selfe . and such an argument is that , which we bring against the pope's pretended headship . for if the pope is the head of the catholick church , then the catholick church must be the body of the pope ; because the head and the body are the relative and correlative ; and being such , they are convertible in obliquo : and then it follows unavoidably , that when there is no pope at all , ( which is very often , ) the catholick church hath then no head ; and when there are many popes at once , ( which hath been sometimes the case , ) then the catholick church must have at once many heads ; and when the pope is heretical , ( as by the confession of the papists he now and then is , ) the catholick church hath such a head as makes her deserve to be beheaded . k that popes have been hereticks and heathens too , not only by denying the godhead of the son , and by lifting him up above the other two persons , but even by sacrificing to idols , and a totall apostacy from the faith , is ( a thing so clear in the writings of platina and onuphrius , that 't is ) the confession of the most zealous and partial asserters of their supremacy . i know that stella , and those of the spanish inquisition , do at once confesse this , and yet adhere to their position , † that ( with his colledge of cardinals ) the pope cannot erre , and is the head of the church . but st. hilary of poictiers was so offended at pope liberius his espousing the arian heresie , that he affirm'd the true church to have been then onely in france . * ex eo inter nos tantùm communio dominica continetur . so ill success have they met withal , who have been flatterers of the pope or the court of rome . to conclude this first instance in the fewest words that i can use : whosoever shall read at large ( what i have time onely to hint ) the many liberties and exemptions of the gallican church , and the published confessions of popish writers , for more then a thousand years together , touching the papal usurpations , and right of kings , put together by goldastus in three great volumes ; he will not be able to deny , ( let his present perswasion be what it will , ) that the supremacy of the pope is but a prosperous vsurpation , and hath this lying against it , that 't was not so from the beginning . secondly 't is true that for severall ages , the church of rome hath pretended to be infallible ; as well incapable of error , as not erroneous . but from the beginning it was not so . for , ( besides that infallibility is one of god's peculiar and incommunicable attributes , ) where there is not omniscience , there must be ignorance in p●rt ; and where ignorance is , there may be error . that heresie is error in point of faith , and that novatianism is heresie , all sides agree : and 't is agreed by the champions of the papacy it selfe , ( such as a baronius , b pamelius , and c petavius , ) that rome it self was the nest in which novatianism was hatcht ; and not onely so , but that there it continued from d cornelius to caelestine , which wants not much of two hundred years . to passe by the heresies of the donatists and the arians , ( which strangely prosper'd for a time , and spread themselves over the world , the former over the vvest , the later over the east , and as far as the breast of the pope himself ; ) one would have thought that the tenet of infallibility upon earth had been sufficiently prevented by the heresie e of the chiliasts , wherewith the primitive church her self ( i mean the very fathers of the primitive church , for the two first centuries after christ , ) was not onely deceiv'd by papias , who was a disciple of st. iohn , but ( for ought i yet learn ) without the least contradiction afforded to it . nay the whole church of god ( in the opinion of st. a austin and pope innocent the third , ) and for six hundred years together , ( if a maldonate the iesuit may be believ'd ) thought the sacrament of eucharist to have been necessary to infants , as well as to men of the ripest age : and yet ( as maldonate confesseth at the very same time , ) it was so plain and so grosse an error , that notwithstanding st. austin did endeavour to confute the pelagians by it , as by a doctrin of faith , and of the whole church of god ; yet the council of trent was of a contrary mind , and did accordingly in a canon declare against it . 3. pass we on to the doctrine of transubstantiation , which ( if its age may be measur'd by the very first date of its definition , ) may be allow'd to be as old as the lateran * council , a council held under pope innocent the third ; since whom are somewhat more then 400 years : but from the beginning it was not so . for besides that our saviour , just as soon as he had said , this is my blood , explain'd himself in the same breath , by calling it expresly the fruit of the vine , and such as he would drink new in the kingdom of god , ( mat. 26. 29. mark 14. 15. ) there needs no more to make the romanists even asham'd of that doctrine , then the concession of aquinas , and bellarmine's inference thereupon . a aquinas so argues , as to imply it is impossible , and imports a contradiction , for one body to be locally in more places then one , and in all at once . but b bellarmine ( at this ) is so very angry , that in a kind of revenge upon aquinas , ( though held to be the ang●lical doctor , ) he needs will inf●r 't is as impossible , and equally implies a contradiction , for any one body at once to be so much as sacramentally in more places then one . and therefore it cannot now be wonder'd concerning transubstantiation , if so long ago as in the time of pope nicolas the second , either the novelty was not forg'd and hammer'd out into the shape in which we find it , or not at all understood by the pope himself . for one of the two is very clear by the famous c submission of berengarius , wherewith he satisfied the d synod then held at rome , ( and in which were 113. bishops , ) though not at all unto a trans , but rather a consubstantiation . which divers e romanists themselves have not been able not to censure , though it was pen'd by a f cardinal , and approved of by a council , and very glibly swallow'd down by the pope himself . 4. 't is very true that their withholding the cup of blessing in the lord's supper from the secular part of their communicants , hath been in practice little less then 400 years . but from the beginning it was not so . for in our saviour's institution we find it intended for g every guest . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the word , drink ye all of this cup. ( mat. 26. 27. ) and s. paul to the corinthians ( consisting most of lay-men ) speaks as well of their drinking the mystical blood , as of their ●ating the body of christ. ( ● cor. 11. 26 , 27 , 28 , 29. ) nay 't is confest by learned vasquez ( as well as by cassander , and aquinas himself , to be a truth undeniable , that the giving of both elements in the roman church it self , until the time of aquinas , did still continue to be in use . 5. the church of rome for several ages hath restrain'd the holy scriptures from the perusal of the people . but from the beginning it was not so . for hebrew to the iews was the mother-tongue , and in that 't was read weekly before the people . it pleased god the new testament should be first writen in greek , because a tongue the most known to the eastern world . and to the end that this candle might not be hid under a bushel , it was translated by st. ierome into the daggar dalmatick tongue , by bishop vulphilas into the * gothick , by st. chrysostom into a armenian , by athelstan into saxon , by b methodius into sclavonian , by iacobus de voragine into c italian , by bede and vvicl●f into d english. and not to speake of the syriack , aethiopick , arabick , persian , and chaldee versions , ( which were all for the use of the common people of those countries , ) the * vulgar latine was then the vulgar language of the italians , when the old and new testament were turn'd into it . 6. the publique prayers of the romanists have been a very long time in an unknown tongue , ( i mean unknown to the common people , ) even as long as from the times of pope gregory the great . but from the beginning it was not so . for 't is as scandalously opposite to the plain sense of scripture , as if it were done in a meer despight to the 14th chapter of the first epistle to the corinthians , especially from the 13. to the 17. ver . not to speak of what is said by the * primitive writers : † aquinas and lyra do both confess upon the place , that the common service of the church in the primitive times , was in the common language too . and as the christians of a dalmatia , b habassia , c armenia , d muscovia , e sclavonia , d russia , and all the reformed parts of christendom , have the service of god in their vulgar tongues , so hath it been in divers places by f approbation first had from the pope himself . 7. another instance may be gi●en in their prohibiting of marriage to men in orders , which is deriv'd by some from the third a century after christ ; by b others from the eighth ; and in the rigour that now it is , from pope gregory the seventh . but from the beginning it was not so . for priests were permitted to have wives , both in the old and new testament ; ( as maximilian c the second did rightly urge against the pope : ) and the blessed apostles ( many of them ) were married men : for so i gather from d eusebius out of clemens alexandrinus : and from the e letter of maximilian , who did not want the advice of the learnedst persons in all his empire ; and from 1 cor. 9. 5. where st paul asserts his liberty to carry a vvife along with him , as well as cephas . and 't is the doctrine of that apostle , that a bishop may be an husband , although he may not be the husband of more then one wife . ( 1 tim. 3. 2. tit. 1. 6. ) besides , the marriage of the clergy was asserted by f p●phnutius in the council at nice ; and even by one of those g canons which the romanists themselves do still avow for apostolical . and the forbidding men to marry ( with saturninus , and the gnosticks , ) is worthicall'd by god's apostle , the doctrine of devils . ( 1 tim. 4. 1. 3. ) h 8. i shall conclude with that instance to which our saviour in my text does more peculiarly allude ; i mean the liberty of divorce betwixt man and wife , for many more causes then the cause of fornication . for so i find it is k decreed by the church of rome , with an anathema to all that shall contradict it . but from the beginning it was not so . for 't is as opposite to the will of our blessed saviour revealed to us without a parable , ( in the next verse after my text ) as if they meant nothing more , then the opening of a way to rebel against him . for besides that in the canon of the council at trent , a divorce quoad torum / totum ob multas causas was decreed to be just in the church of rome , although our lord had twice confin'd it to the sole cause of fornication , ( matth. 5. 32. & 19. 9. ) and besides that the word totu●n was constantly reteined . in l four editions , ( particula●ly in that , which had the care and command of pope paul the fifth , ) let it be granted that the council did mean no more , then a meer sequestration from bed and board , to endure for a certain or uncertain time ; and not an absolute dissolution of the conjugal knot ; yet in the judgment of chemnitius , yea and of maldonat himself , ( who was as learned a iesuite as that society ever had , ) it would be opposite ( even so ) to the law of christ. for he m who putteth away his vvife for any cause whatsoever , besides the cause of fornication , commits adultery ( saith the iesuit ) even for this very reason , because he makes her commit it , whom he unduly putteth away . n nay , chemnitius saith farther ; that the papal separation from bed and board , is many ways a dissolution of the conjugal tye. nor does he content himself to say , or affirm it only , but by a confluence of scriptures does make it good , that against the command of our blessed saviour ( in the verse but one before my text , ) that which god hath joyned together , the men of rome do put asunder . by these and many more corruptions in point of practice and doctrine too , which were no more then deviations from what had been from the beginning , and which the learned'st sons of the church of rome have been forced to confess in their publick writings ; the awakened part of the christian world were compell'd to look out for a reformation . that there was in the see of rome the most abominable practice to be imagin'd , we have the liberal o confesson of zealous stapleton himself ; and of those that have publisht their p penitentials . we have the published complaints of armachanus , and grostead , and nicolas de clemangis , iohn of hus , and ierome of prague , chancellor gerson , and erasmus , and the archbishop of spalato . ludovicus vives , and cassander , who are known to have died in the same communion , did yet impartially complain of some corruptions . q vives of their feasts at the oratories of martyrs , as being too much of kin unto the gentiles parentalia , which in the judgment of r tertullian made up a species of idolatry . and cassander s confesses plainly , that the peoples adoration paid to images and statues , was equal to the worst of the ancient heathen . t so the buying and selling of papal indulgences and pardons ( 't is a little thing to say of preferments too ) was both confest and inveigh'd against by popish bishops in thuanus . now if with all their corruptions in point of practice , which alone cannot justifie a people's separation from any church , ( though the cathari and the donatists were heretofore of that opinion , ) we compare their corruptions of doctrine too , and that in matter of faith , ( as hath been shewed , ) corruptions intrenching on fundamentals ; it will appear that that door which was open'd by vs in our first reformers , was not at all to introduce , but to let out * schism . for the schism must needs be theirs who give the cause of the separation , not theirs who do but separate when cause is given . else s. paul had been to blame , in that he said to his corinthians , come ye out from among them , and be ye separate . ( 2 cor. 6. 17. ) the actuall departure indeed was ours , but theirs the causal ; ( as our immortal arch-bishop does fitly word it : ) we left them indeed when they thrust us out ; ( as they cannot but go whom the devil drives ; ) but in propriety of speech , we left their errors , rather then them. or if a secession was made from them , 't was in 〈◊〉 very same measure that they had made one from christ. ( whereas they , by their hostilities and their excommunications , departed properly from us , not from any errors detected in us . and the wo is to them by whom the offence cometh , ( matth. 18. 7. ) not to them to whom 't is given . if when england was in a flame by fire sent out of italy , we did not abstein from the quenching of it , until water might be drawn from the river tiber ; it was because our own ocean , could not only do it sooner , but better too ; that is to say ( without a figure , ) it did appear by the concession of the most learned popish writers , that particular nations had still a power to purge themselves from their corruptions , as well in the church , as in the state , without leave had from the see of rome ; and that 't was commonly put in practice above a thousand years since . † it did appear that the kings of england ( at least as much as those of sicily , ) were ever held to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and that by the romanists themselves ; until by gaining from henry the first , the investiture of bishops ; from henry the second , an exemption of the clergy from secular courts , and from easie king iohn , an unworthy submission to forreign power ; the popes became strong enough to call their strength the law of iustice ▪ and yet their incroachments were still oppos'd , by the most pious and the most learned in every age. concerning which it were easie to give a satisfactory account , if it were comely for a sermon to exceed the limits of an hour . in a word , it did appear from the code and novels of a iustinian , from the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 set out by the emperour b zeno , from the practice of c charles the great , ( which may be judged by the capitulars sent abroad in his name , ) from the designs and endeavours of two late emperors , ferdinand the first , and maximilian the second , from all the commended kings of iudah , from the most pious christian emperours as far as from constantine the great , and from many kings of england in d popish times too ; that the work of reformation belong'd especially to them in their several kingdoms . and this is certain ; that neither prescription on the pope's side , nor discontinuance on the kings , could add a right unto the one , or any way lessen it in the other . for it implies a contradiction , that what is wrong should grow right , by being prosperous for a longer or shorter season . had the pope been contented with his * primacy of order , and not ambitiously affected a supremacy of power , and over all other churches besides his own ; we never had cast off a yoke which had never been put upon our necks : and so 't is plain that the usurper did make the schism if sacrilege anywhere , or rebellion , did help reform superstition ; that was the fault of the reformers , not at all of the reformation ; not of all reformers neither . for the most that was done by some , was to write after the copy which had been set them in my text , by the blessed reformer of all the world ; which was so to reform , as not to innovate , and to accommodate their religion to what they found in the beginning . nay , if i may speak an important truth , ( which being unpassionately consider'd , and universally laid to heart , might possibly tend to the peace of christendom ; ) seeing it was not so much the church as the court of rome , which proudly t●od upon crowns and scepters , and made decrees with a * non obstante to apostolical constitutions , or whatsoever had been enacted by any authority whatsoever , ( the commandments of christ being not excepted ; ) we originally departed with higher degrees of indignation , from the insolent court , then church of rome . nor protested we so much against the church , ( though against the church too , ) as against the cruel edict first made at daggar; vvorms , and after cruelly re-inforced at spire and ratisbone , for the confirming of those 1 corruptions from which the 2 church was to be cleans'd . to the 1 former we declar'd a vatinian hatred ; but to the 2 latter of the two , we have the charity to wish for a reconcilement . that we who differ upon the way in which we are walking towards ierusalem , may so look back on the beginning from whence at first we set out , ( and from which our accusers have foulely swerv'd , ) as to agree in our arrival at the same iourney 's end . but god forbid that our love to the peace without , should ever tempt us to a loss of the peace within us . god forbid we should return with the dog to his vomit , or with the sow in the hebrew proverb ( which is cited by s. peter in his epistle , ) to her wallowing in the mire . when i wish for a reconcilement , i do not mean by our compliance with any the least of their defilements , but by their harmony with us in our being clean. on this * condition and supposal ; our church is open to receive the bitterest enemies of our church . our arms are open to embrace●hem ●hem , with love , and honour . our hearts and souls are wide open in fervent prayers and supplications to the god of purity and of peace , ●hat ( in his own good time ) he will up●he ●he breaches , and wipe off the stains , and raise ●p the lapsed reputation , of his divided , defiled , ●●sgraced spouse ; and all for the glory , as well ●s merits , of the ever-blessed bridegroom of all ●ur souls , to whom , with the father , in the unity of ●he spirit , be ascribed by us , and by all the world. blessing , and glory , and honour , and power , ●nd wisdom , and thanksgiving , from this time ●orwards for evermore . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a54850-e150 * iud 3. matth 19. 8. * iude. 2 , 3. 2 cor. 12. 15. 1 cor. 1. 27. 2 cor. 10. 4. * eo sanè loco haereses sunt , ut non tan● arte & industriâ , quàm alexandri glad●o , earum gordius nodus dissoivi posse , quas●que herculis clavâ feriendae , quàm apoll●nis lyrà m●tigandae videantur , sta●l . ton . in epist. dedic . operis de iuslis . sub fia●m . * luke 19. 22. 1 sam. 17. 51. * etenim de quâ re agitur cùm de primatu pontificis agitur ? brevissimè dicam , de summâ rei christianae , id enim quaeritur , debeatne ecclesia diutiùs consistere , an verò dissolvi , & concidere . bellarm. in praes . ad libros de rom. pontif. notes for div a54850-e1980 exod. 35. 30 , 34. * . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 diodor. sic. lib. 1. p. 9. tertul. adversus marcion . l. 4. c. 5. † 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . justin. mart. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 7. * id teneamus quod ubique , quod semper , quod ab omnibus creditum est : quod ita demum fit , si sequamur universalitatem , antiquitatem , consensionem . vinc. lir. adv . haer. c 3. matth. 5. 31 , 32. * verse 7. * verse 8. * gen. 1. 27. matth. 19. 4. † gen. 2. 24. matth. 19. 5. * romana ecclesia se non tam matrem exhibet aliis quàm novercam . sedent in eâ scribae & pharis●i , &c. johan . sarisburiensis ( ad papam hadrianum 4. ) in polycratic . l. 6. c. 24. a epiph. haer. 75. p 904. tom. 1. ed. p●tav . b august . contra donat. tom. 7. lib. 2. p. 396. edit . basil. c epiph. haer. 62. p. 513. d august . tom. 6. haer. 54. p. 25. e iren. lib. 1. c. 24. p 79. excus . 1570. f euseb. l. 3. c. 33. p. 80. colon. allobr●gum 1612. g iren. l. 1. c. 10. pag. 48 , &c. epiph. haer. 66. pag. 617. a iren. advers . haeret . l. 1. c. 9. p. 44. &c. b — 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , epiph. tom. 1 l. 1. haer. 26. p. 9● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 idem . ibid. haer. 27. ● 102. c note , that bellarmine having boasted , ( lib. 1. de pargatoria , cap. 15. ) that all the a●tie●s , both greek and latine , from the very time of the apostles , did constantly affirm the doctrine of purgatory , could not give an older instance , then in origen and tertullian , ( ibid. cap. 2. & 7. & 10. ) but by recourse unto the heathen . ( ibid. cap. 11. ) d hoc etiam paracletus ( i e. montanus ) frequentissimè commendavit , &c. tert. de anim● , cap. ult . see bellarmine contradicted by the romanists themselves , e. g. roffens . contr . lutherum , art. 18. polydor. virg. inv. rer. lib. 8. c. 1. p. 84. edit . basil. 1521. suarez in aquin. par . 3. q. 59. art . 6. sect . 1. p. 1159. thomas ex albiis east-saxonum de me. dio animarum statu , per totum libr. speciatim demens . 9 p. 369 , 370 , 371. e liquet item , in orientali & occidentali ecclesiâ , usqu● ad tempus prohibitionis à calixto factae , sacerdotum conjugia licita suisse . maximil . 2 , apud thu. an . l. 36. p. 305 , 306. f an●e lateranense coacilium transubstaatiatio non suit dogma fidei . scot. in 4. sent. dist. 11. q. 3. g n●gare non possumus , etiam in ●cclesiâ lati●d suisse usum u. tri●sq●●sp●ciei , & usque ad tempora s. thomae durasse . vasq. in 3. disput. 216. c. 3. n. 38. h suo loco & ordine homines dei nominantur , non tamen à sacerdote qui sacrificat invocantur ▪ august . de civitate dei lib. 22. cap. 10. pag. 1155. i pho● as iratus cyriaco episcopo constantinopolitano , adjudicavit titulum oecumenici pontifici romano soli . baronius ad a. c. 606. a vide concil . trident . sess. 13. can. 2 , 3. sess. 21. can. 1 , 2 , 3. sess. 22. can. 3 , 5 , 6 , 8 , 9 sess. 23. can. 1 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 8 , 9. sess. 25. &c. quam conser cum bullâ pii quarti . edit . bin. p. 444. tom. 9. b nec non ipsas traditiones , ●um ad fidem tum ad mores pertinentes , tanquam vel à spiritu sancto diciatas , pari pictatis affectu ac reverentiâ suscipit ac veneratur ( haec sancta synodus . ) trident. conc. sess. 4. sub . paulo 3. bin. tom. 9. p. 354. * siquis libros ipsos integros , — pro sacris & canonicis non suscep . rit , & traditiones praedictas sciens contempserit , anathema sit . ibid. a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. theod. hist. eccles. lib. 5. cap. 9. concil . constantinop . apud baronium ad a. d. 382. suffragatur . b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , apud chrysost. ad populum antiochen . hom. 3. c tempore , ut scimus summo tiberii caesaris al●sque ullo impedimen . to — radios suos primum indulget , id est pr●●cepta sua , christus● g●ldas in epist. de excid . brit. sect. 6. a de phocâ coeli●●s est dictum , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. cedrenus , p. 334. b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . idem . p. 332. c phocas iratus cyriaco , episcopo constantinopolitano adjudicavit titulum oecumenici pontifici romano . baron . annal. ad a. ch. 606. d johannes constantinopolitanus sese hinc efferens , se ubique oecumenicum patriarcham nominavit . idem ad a. c. 595. * john 21. 15 , 16 , 17. a cyprianus ait pari omnes inter se su●sse potestate apostolos ; atque hoc idem suisse alios quod petrus fuit . tractat. 3. de s●mplicitate praelatorum , ( edit , colon . 1544. ) p. 135. b si autoritas quaeritur , orbis major est urbe , ubicunque fuerit episcopus , sive romae , sive eugubii , sive constantinopoli , sive rhegii , sive alexandriae , sive tanii , ejusdem meriti , cjusdem est & sacerdotii . potentia divitiarum & paupertatis humilitas vel subsimiorem v●l inserio●em episcopum non facit . caeterùm omnes apostolorum successores sunt . hieron . in epist. ad evagrium , ( ex edit . basil. 156 , . ) p. 329. ●ive ex edit . paris . 1533 tom 2. p. 117. c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . concil . nicae . can. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ibid. can. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quae antioche●● ecclesiae servari his canonibus praecipiu●tur , ●ò pertinent , ( inquit justellus ) ut episcopus antiochenus praeferatur metro●litanis omnibus in orientali dioecesi . nihil juris illi attributum in caetero● metropolitanos , praeter honorem ordinis , non autem ut metropolitani omnes d●oeces●os orientis ●b ●o jure singulari ordinarentur , ut innocentii primi epis●ola ad alexandr . episcopum asserere videtur , contra mentem synodi nicaenae . justell . p. 7. ex edit . gulielmi voelli , a. d. 1661. d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. concil . constantinop . oecumen . 2. can. 2. quid hic canon sibi velit per [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] justellus explicat paulò superiùs ad can. conc. nic. 6. nihil juris nimirum antiocheno attribuendum in caeteros metropolitanos , praeter ordinem honoris . e confer iustinian . novel . constit. 131. cap. 2. cum canone 3. concilii constant. f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 et paulò post 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c concil . chalced . can. penult . g quis est isle qui contra statuta evangelica , contra canonum decreta , novum sibi usurpare nomen proesumit ? — novis & profanis vocabulis gloriaatur . — absi● à cordibus christianorum nomen illud blasphemiae . greg. mag. epist. 32. ad mauritium augustum . h sed in hac ejus superbiâ quid aliud nis● propinqua jam antichristi esse tempora designatur ? idem ad eundem in epist. 34. i si illud nomen in ecclesiâ sibi quisquam arripuit , quod apud honorum omnium judicium fuit , universa ergo ecclesia ( quod absit ) à statu suo corruit , quando ●s qui appellatur universalis cadit . idem . ad eund . epist 32. universalis autem nec etiam romanus pontifex appelletur , fatente papâ pelagio fecundo , apud gratian decretal . p. 1. dist . 99. cap. 4. quis aute● illud pro indignitate rei stupeat , quòd novam quandam indebitamque potentiam tibi usurpando arrogas , & c ? ita papam allo ●uuntur episcopi germanici apud goldast . tom. 1. p 47. k multi pontifices romani errarunt ; sicut marcellinus , qui idolis sacrificavit ; et liberius papa , qui arianis consensit ; & anastasius secundus propter haeresis crimen repudiatus suit ab ecclesiâ : & alii etiam plurimi contra catholicam fidem tenuerun● ; ut joannes vigesimus secundus , qui asseruit , quòd filius dei sit major patre & spiritu sancto . didacus stella in luc. cap. 22. vers . 31. p. 280. col . 1. edit . antverp . a. d. 1593. ad inquisitionis hispaniae decreta ●rorsus elimatus , et summâ fide repurgatus . † ubi suprà , verbis immediate subsequentibus . * hilar. pictav . de synodis , p 287. & paulò post — quidam ex vobis firmissimâ fidei constantiâ intra communionem se meam continentes , se à caeteris extra gallias abstinuerunt . idem . ib. 288. a baron . tom. 2. an. 254. pag. 498 , 499. & seq . b pamel . in cyprian . epist. 41. & 73. c petav. in epiphan . ad haeres . 59 quae est novatianorum , pag. 226. d onuph . in notis ad plat. in v●tâ cornelii . pag. 29. col. 2. vide euseb. l. 6. & 7. e vide bellar. chronolog . ad ● . c. 132. & euseb. h●st . eccles . l. 3. c 39. a non potest proba●i ●um [ i. e. augustinum ] existimasse hîc de eucharistiâ non agi , cum tam multis locis aliis probet ex hoc johannis testimonio , eucharistiam etiam infantibus esse necessariam ; idque non ut opinionem suam sed ut fidei & totius ecclesiae dogma : ad res●llendos pelagianos dicat : & paulò post — missam facio augustini & innocentii primi sententiam , quae sexcentos circiter annos viguit in ecclesiâ , eucharistiam etiam infantibus necessariam . res jam ab ecclesiâ , & mul●orum seculorum usu , & decreto synodi tridentinae explicata est , non so●ùm necessariam illis non esse , sed ne decere quid●m dari . ( sess. 21 c. & can 4. ) maldonat . ( excus . mussiponti , a. c. 1596. ) in joh. 6. 53. p. 717 , 718 , 719. a non potest proba●i ●um [ i. e. augustinum ] existimasse hîc de eucharistiâ non agi , cum tam multis locis aliis probet ex hoc johannis testimonio , eucharistiam etiam infantibus esse necessariam ; idque non ut opinionem suam sed ut fidei & totius ecclesiae dogma : ad res●llendos pelagianos dicat : & paulò post — missam facio augustini & innocentii primi sententiam , quae sexcentos circiter annos viguit in ecclesiâ , eucharistiam etiam infantibus necessariam . res jam ab ecclesiâ , & mul●orum seculorum usu , & decreto synodi tridentinae explicata est , non so●ùm necessariam illis non esse , sed ne decere quid●m dari . ( sess. 21 c. & can 4. ) maldonat . ( excus . mussiponti , a. c. 1596. ) in joh. 6. 53. p. 717 , 718 , 719. * cujus corpus & san●guis in sacramento altaris sub speciebus p●nis & vini veraciter continentur , transubstantiatis pane in corpus , & vino in sanguinem , potestate divinâ . conc. later . c. 1. in synaxi serò transubstantiationem definivit ecclesia . diu sa●is erat credere , sive sub pane consecrato , sive quocunque modo adesse verum corpus christi . erasm. annot. in 1. cor. 7. saltem ab annis 500 dogma transubstantiationis sub anathemate stabilitum , ut ait ipse bellarminus de eucharist . l. 3. c. 21. cujus etiam confessionem videre est , l. 3. c. 23. a corpus christi non est co modo in ●oc sacramento sicut corpus in loco , quod suis dimensionibus loco commensuratur ; sed quodam special● modo , qui est proprius huic sacramento . unde dicimus , quòd corpus christi est in diversis altaribus , non sicut in diversis locis , sed sicut in sacramento . nullo enim ●odo corpus christi est in hoc sacramento localiter , quia si ●sset , divideretur à scipso . aquin. oper. tom. 12. s●m . part . 3. q. 75. art . 1. ad 3. p. 23 2. col . 2. et q. 76. art . 3 et 5. ex . edit . antwerp . 1612. b si non posset esse unum corpus local●ter in duobus locis , quia di●ideretur à ●eipso , profectò nec esse posset sacramentaliter eâdem ratione . bellar. de eucharistiâ , lib. 3. cap. 3. p. 511. tom. 3 , controvers ▪ ex edit . paris . a. c. 1620. c coactus es● berengarius publicè profi●eri , panem & vinum , quae in altari ponuntur , post consecrationem non solùm sacramentum , sed etiam verum corpus & sanguinem domini nostri jesu christi esse : & sensualiter non solùm sacramento , sed in veritate manibus sacerdotum tractari , frangi , & fidelium dentibus atteri , confer floriacens . histor. fragmenta à p. pichaeo edit . inter franc. script . ( excus . francof . a. c. 1596. ) p. 86. cum lanfranc . lib. cont . berengar . & guitmund . de sacram. l. 1. & alger . de sacram. l. 1. c. 19. d sigon . de regno ital. l. 9. a. 1509. e nisi sanè intelligas verba berengarii , in majorem incides haeresin , quàm ipse habuit : & ideo omnia referas ad species ipsas , nam de christi corpore partes non facimus . johan . semeca glossator in gratian. de consecrat . dist. 2. cap. ego berengarius . f a cardinale , scil . humber●e●to sylvae candidae episcopo . guitmundus ubi supra . g concil . constant. can. 13. p. 88● . in ecclesiâ latiná 1000. amplius annis ten●it , ut tam populo quam clero in celebratione massarum post mysteriorum consecrationem scorsum corpus & seorsum sanguis domiai praeberetur . cassan. consult . 22. vasque . cap. 3. disp. 216. c. 3. n 38. secundum antiquam ecclesi●e co●su●fudinem , omnes sicut communicabant corpori , it a communicabant & sanguini , q●od etiam adh●c in quibusdam eccles●is servat●● . aquinas in comment . in joh. 6. daggar sixt. senens . bibliothec . l. 4. ipse hieron . in epist. ad sophron. tom. 3. * socrat. hist eccles. lib. 4. c. 17. niceph. hist. eccles. l. b. 11. c. 48. bonav . vulcan . in praefat. d● liturg. & linguâ getarum . a roccha in biblio . thecâ vatican . p. 155 , 157. b aventin . annal. lib. 4. c sixt. senens . bibl. ● ▪ 4. d vide authores citat . apúd brerew . inqu . c. 26. p. 192. * confer . blond . ital. illustrata , in marchia trivisana , & tinto de la nobiltà di verona , lib. 2. cap. 2. cum hieronymi temporibus apud bellarm. de script . eccles. p. 104. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . origen . contra celsum ( ex edit . ho●schelii , augus●ae vindelicorum , 1605. ●lib . 8. p. 414. † cum aquinate & ly●â confer cajetanum in 1 cor. 14. sententiae nostrae suffragantem . a angelus roccha in bibl. vatic . p. 157. b biblioth . vet. patrum , tom 6. p. 55. c bellonius in observ. l. 3. c. 12. & vitriacus in h●st . orient . cap. 79. broca●dus non ●ullibi in su● descriptione terrae sanctae . d pos●ev●nus de reb. mose p 4. and. thevetus cos. l. 19. c 12. e bapt. palat . de rat . scrib . ang. roccha b●blioth . vatic p. 162. d pos●ev●nus de reb. mose p 4. and. thevetus cos. l. 19. c 12. f aventin . annal. 1. 4. aeneas sylvius in hist. bohem. cap. 1 ● . concil bin. tem. 3. ● . 9●0 . vide e●iam decret . l. 1. tit. 31. cap. 14. et quicquid authorum videre est in 〈◊〉 . laq● . c. 26. a nempe à papi calixto , qui. floruit a ▪ d. 2●0 . consule thuanum . in●● . 36. p. 305. b bishop hall , 3. epist . 2. decad. c ubi supra apud thuanum , p. 305. & 306. d euseb. l. 3 c. 13. e constat apostolos ipsos , paucis exceptis , co●juges habuisse . ubi supra apud thuanum . f ibid. apud thuanum . g 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , canon . apostol . 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . zonaras in can. apost . 5. p. 4. edit . pari. 1618. h irenaeus , l. 1. c. 22. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . clem. alex. strom. l. 3. k siquis dixerit ecclesiam errare , cùm ob multas causas separationem inter conjuges quoad totum , seu quoad cohabitationem , ad certum incertumve tempus , fieri ●osse decernit , anathema sit . concil . trident. sess. 24. can 8. p. 411. edit . bin. tom. 9. paris . l scil. ( praeter edit . jam nomiuatam ) edit . col. ag●●p . tom 4. part 2. p. 332. sum. concil . edit . franc. longii à coriolano , antverp . a. c. 1623. p. 1024. item concil . general . pauii quinti auctorit . edit . romae , a. c. 1628. tom 4. p. 273. m si ob aliam causam quàm ob fornicationem dimiserit , quamvis aliam non duxerit , moechatur ; quia uxorem suam moechari facit . maldonat . ( excus ▪ mogunt . a. d. 1624. ) in matth. 19. 9. p. 392. n atqui in ponti●icid illâ separatione ( nempe à toro & mensâ , ad certum ince●tumve ▪ tempus , ) vinculum conjugii mul●is & variis modis solvitur & disrumpitur . nam ad vinculum matrimonii pertinent hae sententae . et adhaerebit uxori suae . faciamus ei adjutorium quod sit coram ipso . mulier non habet potestatem sui corporis , sed vir . iterum convenite , ne tentet vos satan , propter incontinentiam vestram . non sunt duo , sed una caro. et ipsum matrimonium d ●initu● , individuâ vit● consuetudine . haec v●ro vincula co●jugii in pontisiciâ separatione , quoad tor●● et cohabitationem , solvuntur et dirumpuntur . homines igitur , contra decretum div●nitatis . separant , quod deus conju●xit . chemn●t . in exam. concil . tr●dent . ( excus . genev. a. d. 16 ▪ 4 ▪ ) p. 437. o vix ull●m peccatum cogitari potest , ( solâ haeresi exceptâ ) quo illa sedes turpiter maculata non fuerit , maximè ab ann : 800. staplet . oper. tom. 1. cont. 1. q. 5. art . 3. pag. 597. excus . paris . 1620. p consule canonas poenitentiales romanas , bedae , rabani mauri , &c. cum notis antonii augustini ; archiepiscopi tarraconensis , excus . venetiis , 1584. q ludov. vives in st. august . de civit. dei , l. 8. c. 27. r parentatio mo●tuis species est idololatri● , quoniam & idololatria parentationis est species . tertul. de specta● . cap. 12. s — ita ut ad summam adorationem , quae vel à paganis ●uis simulacris exhiberi consuevit , & ad extremam vanitatem quam ethnici in suis simulacris exornan ●is admiserunt , nil à nostris reliqui factum esse ●ideatur . geo. cassander in consult de imag. & simulacris m●hi pag. 175 , 176. t thuan. l. 25. pag. 760 , &c. * de hildebrando in haec verba sententiam ●erunt episcopi germanici qui concilio wormatiensi inter●uerunt . dum profanis studes novitatibus , dum magis amplo qu●m bono nomine delectaris , dum inaudita elatione distenderis , velut quidam signifer schismatis , om●ia membra eccl●sia superbâ crudelitate & crudeli superbiâ lacerasti : flammasque discordiae quas in romana ecclesia diris factionibus excitasti , per omnes ecclesias italiae , galliae , & hispaniae , furiali dementia sparsisti . — per gloriosa tua decreta ( quod sine lachrymis dici non potest ) christi serè nomen per●it . imperial . statut. à goldasto edit . tom. 1. p. 47. † ex co quo willielmus no●manaiae comes terram illam debella●do sibi subegi● , n●mo in ●d episcopus vel abbas ante ans●lmum f●ctus est , qui non primo suerit homo reg●s , ac de manu ill●us e●iscopatús vel abbatiae investituram per dationem virgae pastoralis suscepit , &c. eadmerus monach. cant●in praef. ad hist. nov. pag. 2. sed nec ex co solùm t●mpore mos hic obtinuit ; nem ante norma●no um etiam adventum hic ●sitatissimus , ut majorum gentium antis●ites sacri , episco●i nimirum & coenobiarchae ( qui sal . tem in 〈◊〉 regiâ ) à sacris eccl●siarum co●oribus ●lecti , quin saepius etiam , spretis omninò corporum sacrorum suffragiis , in aulâ designati , annuli & bac●● pastoral●s , ●ive pedi traditione , in dignitatis possessionem à regibus nostris , 〈◊〉 av●●o nixis , 〈◊〉 . joh. selden . in suis ad eadmer . notis et spicilegio , p. 142. hujus rei exemplum vider● est apud g malmesburiensem de gest●s regum , lib 2. cap 8. quin et illud aliquando vid●tur dignius quod hoc in loco notetur . pontifici hilde●rando fidelitatis iuramentum , à guilielmo no●manno , exigenti , guil elmum regem respondisse — fi●elitatem facere non volo , quin nec ego promisi , nec antecessores meos antecessoribus tuis id fecisse ●omperio . baron . ad an. 10●6 . guilielmus rufus pros●ssus est , quod nullus arch. episcopus aut ●piscopus regni sui , curiae romanae vel papae subesset . matth paris . hist an. 1094. vidésis etiam , ●●peratores , et reges galliarum , jura sua asser●ntes , apud othonem frisingensem , s●gibertum , cosque 〈◊〉 historicos qui res h●nrici quarti imperatoris , et ejusdem nominis primi r●gis anglorum con●ipsêre . inprimis verò sigon●um de reg ital. l. 4 , 9 , 10 , et 11. baron . tom. 11. a c. 1077. cherubi●m de nar●ia in bul●arii tom. 1. p. 16. et 17. bin concil . tom. 3. part . 2. in u●bano , calixto , et ●schall secundis . renatum choppinum de domanio franciae , l. 2. tit . 1 sect . 6 , &c. et de sacra ●●tiâ , l 1. tit . 7. sect. 22 , ●t 23. ad haec , theodor balsamon patriarch . antioch . in concil . chalced. ●n . 4. joh. naucler . chronograph . generat . 39. et h. mutium chron. german . l. 18. a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . &c. justin , novel const. 131. cap. 2. vide etiam de mandatis principum , tit. 4. novel . 17. c. 7 & 11. b evagr. l. 3. c. 14. in mag. biblioth . vet. patr. tom. 6. part. 2. p. 655. c sigon de reg. ital. li. 4. ad a. c. 801. & eginhard in vit . car. mag. & baron . annal. tom 9. ad a. c. so● p. 542. ad 545. & tom. 10. ad a. c. 845. p. 34. excus . colon. agrip. 1609. d edward the co●fessor , william 1. h. 1. h 3. edw. 1. edw. 2. edw. 3. rich. 2. h●n . 4. h. 5. h. 6. edw. 4. rich. 3. hen 7. h. 8. for all which at 〈◊〉 , see coke's reports , par . 5. fol. 1. caudre●'s case , or de ju●e regis ecclesiastico . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . balsam . in conc. ca●th . can. 16. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . concil . constantinop . oecu● . 〈◊〉 can. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . justinian . imp. novel . const. 131. c. 2 ▪ * apostolicâ potestate declaramus & definimus , et ab omnibus judicari d●bere mandamus atque statuimus , decernentes irritum et 〈◊〉 , fi quid secus à quoquam quacunque dignitate , auctoritate , 〈◊〉 potestate praedito co●tig●r●● iudicari , non obstantibus constitut. onibus et ordinationibus apostol●cis , a●isque in ●word facicutibus qui●useunque . vule i●ullam piiquarti , concil . bin. edit . par●● tom 9 p. 444. 〈◊〉 christus post c●nam instituerit , et suis discip●lis administraveri● sub u●raque speci● 〈◊〉 et vini ●oc 〈◊〉 sacrementum , 〈◊〉 hoc non obstante , &c. licet in primiti●â ecclesiá 〈◊〉 s●odi sacramentum reciperctur à fidelibus sub 〈◊〉 sp●●ie ; 〈◊〉 à confici●●●ibus sub 〈◊〉 , et à laicis tantummodo sub specie panis suscipi●tur . concil . constant. bin. tom. 3. pa●t . 2. sess. 13. p. 880. excus . colon. ag●ippinae , 1618. daggar; ibi ( i. e. spirae , ubi erat conventus ordinum imperii ; ) decretum factum est , ut edictum wormatiense observaretur contra novatores , ut omnia in ●ategrum restituantur . contra hoc edictum solen●is fait protestat . o , april : 16. a. d. 1529. & hinc ortum pervulgatum illud nomen protestantium . sethus calvis . in chron. ad a. c. 1529. lutherus impulit iohannem saxo●iae sep●emvirum , aliosque principes germanicos , protestaricont●a decreta ratisbonae & spirae de religione ●acta . u●de nomen protestantium crevit . cluverius ad a. c. 1529. p. 705. 2. pet. 2. 22. * ab ecclesiâ romanâ non alio discessimus animo , quàm ut , si correcta ad priorem ecclesiae sormam redeat , nos quoque ad illam rev●rtamur , & communionem cum illâ in suis porrò coetibus habeamus . apud grot : d●scuss . p. 14 ▪ & apud ipsum zanch. in confess . art. 19. p. 157. a second discourse of the religion of england further asserting, that reformed christianity, setled [sic] in its due latitude, is the stability and advancement of this kingdom : wherein is included, an answer to a late book, entitled, a discourse of toleration. corbet, john, 1620-1680. 1668 approx. 94 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 27 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-11 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a34543 wing c6263 estc r23042 12062470 ocm 12062470 53300 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a34543) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 53300) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 865:11) a second discourse of the religion of england further asserting, that reformed christianity, setled [sic] in its due latitude, is the stability and advancement of this kingdom : wherein is included, an answer to a late book, entitled, a discourse of toleration. corbet, john, 1620-1680. [2], 49, [1] p. [s.n.], london : 1668. reproduction of original in huntington library. attributed to john corbet. cf. bm. table of contents: p. 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looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng perrinchief, richard, 1623?-1673. -discourse of toleration. church of england -customs and practices. dissenters, religious -great britain. church and state -great britain. reformation -england. 2004-08 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-08 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-09 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2004-09 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a second discourse of the religion of england : further asserting , that reformed christianity , setled in its due latitude , is the stability and advancement of this kingdom . wherein is included , an answer to a late book , entitvled , a discourse of toleration . london , printed in the year 1668. a second discourse of the religion of england . sect . i. of the foundation of our peace already laid in the religion of the nation , and the structure thereof , to be perfected by the vnity of that profession . concerning religion in this kingdom , there have been , and still are great thoughts of heart , and the troubled state thereof hath much disturbed the minds of men , and the whole course of human affairs . doubtless , religion it self is not in fault , which in its right and sound state , being an institution holy , just and good , must needs be of great efficacy to compose and quiet our minds , and to heal and settle the nations . but that which in it self is excellent , is by the errors and corruptions of men , made subject to much vanity . and the adversary of mankind being not able to raze out the deep impressions thereof that are in our nature , hath made it his master-piece so to corrupt or discompose it , as to disorder the passions of men , and the affairs of the world about it . concerning the cure of these distempers , and the redress of the evils thence arising , there is no cause of despair or despondency , if men cease from their high provocations , and god from his righteous indignation . the most effectual means of reconciliation between the disagreeing parties , is , for all of them to be reconciled to god. then would that spirit of perversness , which by the divine displeasure hath been mingled in the midst of us , be controled and vanquished ; and offences and prejudices being removed , we might discern the way of peace . god forbid that sentence should pass upon this generation , destruction and misery is in their paths , and the way of peace they have not known . next , under the divine favour and blessing , our help standeth in the wisdom and piety of our sovereign and his parliament . but this grand affair is acknowledged to be full of difficulties , caused by the passions , prejudices and interests of the several parties . nevertheless , the prudence and patience of those that sit at the helm of government , is able to master it : for , the ground-work of peace is laid to their hands , in the religion of the nation ; and the impartial may descry the opportunity of such a settlement as may accommodate all those parties in which the nation 's peace is bound up . the true interest of soveraignty , is the self-same with that of the universality , or whole body of the kingdom ; and this is founded in such a common-good , as belongs to all sorts of men , by whom the publike weal consists . and where there are , and inevitably will be different perswasions among them , the wisdom of the government is to contract and lessen their differences , as much as it is possible ; but , howsoever , to prevent or heal divisions , and to hold them united among themselves , in the common benefit , and all of them necessarily dependant upon the state. this is a firm basis of the perpetual stability of empire , as also of the subjects tranquility and prosperity ; and the present discourse rests upon this principle as its sure foundation . now in this realm , the joint stock of those several parties , for matter of religion , is reformed christianity , for which they are all jealous , even unto discomposure , upon any encroachments of the popish party . wherefore , it is the wisdom of this government , to remove or lessen the differences , and to cure the divisions which now disturb and divide the protestants , and to hold them united among themselves , and all of them in firm dependance upon this state , and consequently , to give them all their due encouragement , not indeed in loose and irregular wayes , but in a ruled order , consistent with stable polity , and agreeable to the government of this kingdom . the ground-work being already laid in the protestant religion , which is the general and grand interest of this nation , the structure and fabrick of the unity and peace of this realm , is more or less perfected , as the unity of this profession , and the peace and concord of its professors , is more or less acquired . and now this great question lyes before us , whether the vnity of religion be obtained by requiring a conformity of judgment and practice in matters of perpetual difference from the beginning of the reformation unto this very day ; or , by permitting a latitude of opinion and practice in those points ; and that not infinite and inordinate , but limited by the publike rule . sect . ii. the good of the several parties is best secured by common equity , and the good of the vniversality . how happy might the disposition of human affairs be , if that were acknowledged in mens practice , which is most clear and obvious to human understanding , that things of common equity and regard to all sorts , who are necessarily included in the publike state , be preferred by each particular party , before great advantages to themselves apart , with disregard of all others . for , all particular interests which are uncorrupt , and will hold firm , are imbarked in the interest of the universality , and must sink or swim therewith : whereupon , not onely the commonwealth , but the more appropriate concernments of men , are better secured for continuance , by this moderation and common equity . there lye before us the protestant religion , ( which is the true primitive christianity ) and the ancient , equal and happy constitution of the government of this kingdom . the conservation and advancement of both these , are infinitely more valuable than the prevalence of parties , by all true protestants , and true english men . a publike spirit is that which is truly pious and generous . but , over and above this noble and christian consideration , this also should be very prevalent , that those two great things before named , in which all do share , and by which all subsist , are the basis even of the more private and contracted benefits of the several parties ; and by disturbing these , they weaken their own hold , and disturb their own safety . those that hate moderation , and follow extremes on either hand , consider not the true state of england . it is an unhappy error when divided parties , who when all is done , in their divided state , can be but parties , and not the whole , shall so act in their turns , as if they took themselves to be the whole body of the nation , or equivalent thereunto . and it is a calamitous aversness , when such as must live together either as friends or enemies , shall refuse lawful and safe terms of mutual agreement . as for conscience , and its high concernments , if it be guided by that wisdom which is from above , which is first pure , then peaceable , it puts in no caution against the healing of this breach : for , order and peace may be obtained upon terms not repugnant to the principles of either party . his majesty's wisdom hath rightly comprehended this matter , in his declaration concerning ecclesiastical affairs , where he saith , we are the rather induced to take this upon vs , ( that is , to give some determination to the matters in difference ) by finding upon a full conference that we have had with the learned men of several perswasions , that the mischiefs under which both church and state do at present suffer , do not result from any formed doctrine or conclusion which either party maintains or avows ; but from the passion , appetite , and interest of particular persons , which contract greater prejudice to each other by those affections , than would naturally arise from their opinions . it is apparent , that the avowed doctrines on either side , could not set the parties at this distance , if their spirits and interests were reconciled . sect . iii. what may be esteemed a good constitution of the state ecclesiastical . as concerning the publike order , it imports exceedingly to discern and make a difference between things desirable , but morally impossible , or extreamly improbable , and things necessary and attainable . perfect unanimity about matters of religion , and a harmony of opinion in all theological truths , is very desirable ; but it was never yet found in any age of the world , among those that owned the same religion , and consequently it cannot be necessary in all those that ought to be comprehended in the same church , or religious communion . for which cause , a precise uniformity in matters of meer opinion , will hardly ever pass with general satisfaction : neither is it of that importance , that some make it to be , for peace and edification . there is another thing not onely desirable , but the indispensable duty of all particular persons , which is brotherly love among all that receive the common faith once given to the saints . this is of far greater consequence than the former , and more largely attainable , because it is a catholick disposition , and the right spirit of true christianity ; and indeed , the failing hereof is lamentable and reproachful . howbeit , this excellent christian vertue is commonly much interrupted and impaired in many , by prejudicate opinions , and depraved affections ; and it must not be expected , but that animosities and jealousies may remain between men of different perswasions , by reason of the corruption of man's nature , and the infirmities of the best of men . aud therefore the foundation of a solid national settlement , must not , and need not be laid in mens good dispositions and inclinations : for , although the distemper of many minds continue , yet publike order , and steddy government , is in no wise impossible . things are necessary , either as the end , or the means . the things here considered , that are necessary as the end , are , the advancement of the protestant religion , and the kingdom of england , the tranquility of church and state , and the security of all sound protestants , and good subjects . that which is necessary as the means , is the publike rule and standard by which these blessed ends may be obtained ; that , notwithstanding the remainder of mens perversness , the common high concerns of reformed religion , and of this kingdom , be not disturbed , impaired , or cast back by the altercations that may chance to arise between men of different private opinions , and different partial interests . the high importance and necessity of a stated rule of such force and efficacy , evinceth the possibility thereof : for , so noble and necessary ends , cannot be destitute of all possible means leading thereunto . evil dispositions and manners are the rise of good laws : and law-makers , that are subject to like passions with other men , have the wisdom to limit themselves and others , for the universal good , wherein the good of every individual is secured . the publike rule being to be framed to the proportion of the people that are to be setled under it , the chief regard must be had to their fixed and unmovable perswasions and inclinations , lest they should break the rule , or the rule break them . in a nation whose active part is zealous of religion , and able to discern , and addicted to discourse the grounds thereof , the order of things ought , in the first place , to be directed to the satisfying of the just and reasonable demands of conscience , which being troubled , is a restless thing ; and then to the outward incouragements of piety and learning , and withall , to the bridling of ambition , avarice , faction , and all depraved appetite . it must be expected , that divers obliquities and deficiencies may remain , and troubles will arise : but if that which is wholesom and good , be so predominant as to master the evils , though not to extinguish them , it is to be esteemed a good constitution . sect . iv. the comprehensiveness of the establishment , and the allowance of a just latitude of dissents , is the best remedy against dissentions . there was lately published a discourse for a due latitude in religion , by comprehension , toleration and connivence , directed to this end , that the occasions of those discords which divide the members , and distract the whole body of the protestant profession , might cease ; and that the common concernments , wherein the disagreeing parties have a large joint stock in things of greatest moment , might be pursued . this is encountred with an adverse discourse , which is here to be examined , and the state and reason of the aforesaid latitude , is to be further cleared . toleration being commonly understood of the permission of different ways of religion , without the line of the approved way , a discourse of toleration doth not hit the discourse of the religion of england , in the main thereof , whose chief design is the extension of the established order , and the moderation therein required ; and then toleration is treated of analogically , with respect not only to common charity , but to the safety of the setled polity . it is no less besides the mark , to argue from the mischiefs of a boundless and licentious toleration , against that which is limited and well managed , and hath for the subject thereof , nothing that is intolerable . but , if under this name be comprehended also the permission of diversity of opinion in the same established order , let it be considered , whether any ample polity can consist without such permission . for , it is a thing utterly unknown , and seems morally impossible , for any numerous society of inquiring men , to be of the same judgment in all points of religion . and though the sons of the church , as they are called , agree in those points wherein they all differ from the nonconformists , yet they differ among themselves in far weightier matters , and such as have caused great schisms , and have been the subjects of the debates and determinations of some synods in the reformed churches . now if charity among themselves , and their appropriate interest , dispose them to this mutual forbearance , a more extensive charity , and the common interest of reformed christianity , should incline them to a forbearance in those other matters . there is yet a greater error committed about the subject of toleration , which the answerer , by mistake , will have to be dissentions in religion , but is nothing so in the design of that discourse to which he pretends an answer . and this hath brought forth a large impertinency , which takes up more than a third part of his book : for , those whose liberty he seeks to withstand , are not touched with that which he writes at large of the nature of dissentions , with their causes and consequences , and the magistrates duty concerning them , whether it be right or wrong , setting aside the injurious application thereof . and all that labour had been spared , if he had put a difference between dissention and dissent , words that are near in sound , and perhaps , sometimes , promiscuously used ; but in their strict and proper sense , far distant : for , dissention is no sooner presented to the mind , but it is apprehended as something either culpable and offensive , or calamitous and unhappy : but dissent is of a better notion , and is not necessarily on both sides , either a fault or a grievance . but if this author means by dissentions , no more then dissents or differences of opinion , with what truth and justice can he charge them all ( as he doth ) with such execrable causes and effects . dissentions have been , and may be remedied , and their fuel being taken away , those flames will be extinguished : but diversity of opinion seems in this state of human nature , to be irremediable . it is therefore hoped , that the state of this church and kingdom is not so deplorable , as to want a settlement while these dissents remain . moreover , there are private dissents between particular men , within the latitude of the publike rule ; and there are dissents that may be called publike , as being from the publike rule , or some parts thereof . now the broader and more comprehensive the rule is , the fewer will be the dissenters from it . and the permission of private diversities of opinion , in a just latitude within the rule , is the means to lessen publike dissents , and consequently , dissentions much more . and this was the main scope of the first discourse . the great importance of vnity in the church of christ , is acknowledged and contended for as much on this side , as on the other : howbeit , we do not believe that christ our head hath laid the conservation and unity of his church , upon unwritten and unnecessary doctrines , and little opinions , and sacred rites and ceremonies of meer human tradition and institution . but he hath set out the rule and measure of unity in such sort , as that upon dissents in those things , the members of this society might not break into schisms , to a mutual condemnation and abhorrency . the imposing of such things ( except in those ages whose blindness and barbarism disposed them to stupidity and gross security in their religion ) hath been ever found to break unity , and to destroy , or much impair charity , goodness , meekness and patience , which are vital parts , and chief excellencies of christianity . sect . v. whether the present dissentions are but so many factions in the state. one grand objection is , that the dissentions among us , are but so many several factions in the state. but , meer dissents in religion , are no state-factions at all , but proceed from a more lasting cause , than particular designs , or any temporary occasions , even from the incurable infirmity of our nature . and if it were granted , that the dissentions were state-factions ; yet , they are not so originally and radically , but by accident . some may take advantage to raise and keep up factions by them . for this cause , take out of the way the stumbling-block of needless rigors , and then dissentions will cease or languish , and consequently , the state factions ( if there be any such that are kept up by them ) will come to nothing . it is so evident , that toleration , which came not in till after the breach between the late king and parliament , did not open the avenues to our miseries , that one may wonder any should say it did . but , meet indulgence to all sound protestants , is the likeliest means of stopping such avenues . and , if it be for the interest of england to have no factions , the best way is to remove those burdens , which , like a partition-wall , hath kept asunder the professors of the same religion : then the masters of our troubles ( whosoever they be ) cannot have that advantage by their eminency in their parties , to drive on their designs in the state. factious spirits are disappointed , when honest minds are satisfied and secured . this author relates the aims of several parties on this manner : the papists are for the supremacy of the bishop of rome ; some of the other sects are for a commonwealth ; others are for the fift monarchy . but , if the true state of the nonconformists be well considered , it will be found , that in them , as well as any others , the king and kingdom is concerned , and the good of both promoted . it is not with them , as with the popish party , who have such a severed interest to themselves , that the state is little concerned in it , save onely to beware of its incroachments . but the protestant dissenters , are such as do much of the business of the nation , and have not their interest apart , but in strict conjunction with the whole body-politick . yea , they have no possible means of ensuring their interest , but by legal-security obtained from the higher power , and by comporting with the general tranquility both of the church and state of england . they cannot flye to the refuge of any foreign prince or state , ( as the papists have done frequently ) they acknowledg no foreign jurisdiction , ( which is a principle of the popish faith ) but all their stake lies at home , and they can have no sure hold that is aliene from the happiness of the king and kingdom . an impartial observer cannot but discern this . if it be lawful to name a thing so much to be abhorred , as a change of the ancient laws and government , they could not be happy , nor do their work by such an unhappy change. experience witnesseth , that their interest is not for hasty and unstable victory , or unfixed liberty ; but , for a state of firm consistence and security ; and that they cannot hold their own , but by the common safety both of prince and people . the summ of this matter is , that a party not onely comporting with the good estate of this realm , but even subsisting by it , and therefore firmly linked unto it , should not be cast off . sect . vi. whether the nonconformists principles tend to sects and schisms . some reasons were offered to shew , that indulgence towards dissenting protestants , did much concern the peace and happiness of this realm . and the prudent will judg arguments of that sort to be of the greatest weight in the affairs of government . there is no need to reinforce the cogency of those reasons : the adversary hath wrested them to an odious meaning , contrary to their manifest true intent ; but whether he hath indeed evinced them to be of little or no moment ; or , whether they stand in full force , let judicious men consider . the whole reasoning in that particular , rests upon this maxime , that it is the sovereign's true interest , to make his divided people to be one among themselves , and to keep them all in dependance upon himself , as the procurer of their common safety . the prejudices that have been conceived , and the calumnies that have been raised against the nonconformists , gave occasion of resolving this question , whether they be of a judgment and temper that makes them capable of being brought under the magistrates paternal care and conduct , to such a stated order as will comport with this church and kingdom ? this , by the answerer , is termed a dialect of canting , and is wilfully wrested into a question of another nature . whether he had occasion given him to speak so scornfully , let any judg that understand sober language . but , that they might appear uncapable of a comprehension , he sticks not to affirm , that the principles of presbyterian perswasion , do not admit of any stability , but may be drawn out to patronize the wildest sects that are or have been . and his main proof is taken from the bare word of two of their eminent adversaries . he might have remembred , that the same reproach is cast upon the principles of protestantism , by romish writers . one may well ask , where is the truth and candor of those men that write after this manner ? consider the french , dutch , helvetian churches , how intire they keep themselves in orthodox unity , from the gangrene of sects and schisms . the church of scotland , whilst it was presbyterian , was inferior to none in the unity of doctrine and church-communion . did prelacy ever effect the like unity in the church of england ? and shall the sects that now are , or lately were in this nation , be charged upon presbytery , that was never setled among us ; and against which the sectaries had the greatest indignation ? though that way never obtained in england , nor was favoured with the magistrates vigorous aid , yet it is very untrue , that the first admirers and friends thereof , grew sick of it , and hissed for the other sects to affront , reproach and baffle it . it is well known , that it received those disgraces from another sort of men . the asserting of this government , is far from the design of this or the former treatise ; yet it may be lawful to vindicate it from unjust aspersions . the answerer is pleased to stile it , no other but a sect. i hope he doth not intend to make the foreign reformed churches , but so many combinations of sectaries . if his meaning be , that is no better than a sect in england , because another government is established by law , let him tell us , whether episcopacy would be a sect , if it should appear in those countries where presbytery is the legal government ? no less will follow , if the notion of sect be extended so far , as to fetch in whatsoever dissents from the order by law established . sect . vii . of their principles touching obedience and government . another great prejudice taken up against the nonconformists , is , that they are inconsistent with any regular government : and this author reports , that it is a common maxime among the dissenters , that an indifferent thing becomes vnlawful by being commanded . but let the world hear them speak for themselves out of their account to his majesty concerning the review and alteration of the liturgy . we humbly beseech your majesty to believe , that we own no principles of faction or disobedience , nor patronize the errors or obstinacy of any . it is granted us by all , that nothing should be commanded us by man , which is contrary to the word of god : that , if it be , and we know it , we are bound not to perform it , god being the absolute universal sovereign : that we must use all just means to discern the will of god , and whether the commands of men be contrary to it : that , if the command be sinful , and any through neglect of sufficient search , should judg it lawful , his culpable error excuseth not his doing it , from being sin : and therefore as a reasonable creature must needs have a judgment of discerning , that he may rationally obey it ; so is he with the greatest care and diligence , to exercise it in the greatest things , even the obeying of god , and the saving of his soul : and that where a strong probability of a great sin and danger lieth before us , we must not rashly run on without search : and that to go on against conscience where it is mistaken , is sin and danger to him that erreth . and on the other side , we are remembred , that in things no way against the law of god , the commands of our governors must be obeyed ; but if they command what god forbids , we must patiently submit to suffering , and every soul must be subject to the higher powers for conscience sake , and not resist : the publike judgment , civil or ecclesiastical , belongeth only to publike persons , and not to any private man : that no man must be be causlesly or pragmatically inquisitive into the reasons of his superiors commands ; nor by pride and self-conceitedness , exalt his own understanding above its worth and office ; but all to be modestly and humbly self-suspicious : that none must erroneously pretend to god's law , against the just command of his superiors , nor pretend the doing of his duty to be a sin : that he who suspecteth his superiors commands to be against gods laws , must use all means for full information , before he settle in a course of disobeying them : and that he who indeed discovereth any thing commanded , to be a sin ; though he must not do it , must manage his opinion with very great care and tenderness of the publike peace , and the honour of his governors . these are our principles : if we are otherwise represented to your majesty , we are mis-represented : if we are accused of contradicting them , we humbly crave that we may not be condemned before we be heard . this is sound speech that cannot be reproved . wherefore if the clemency of their superiors shall remit those injunctions that may wellbe dispensed with , and unto which they cannot yeeld conformity for fear lest they sin against god ; their principles will dispose them with an humble and thankful acquiescence , to receive so great a benefit . sect . viii . of placing them in the same rank for crime and guilt , with the papists . the answerer hath not feared to set the papists , and the protestant dissenters , upon the same level , in the guilt of rebellion , cruelty and turbulency . for a high charge having been made good against popery , that it disposeth subjects to rebellion : that it persecutes all other religions within its reach : that wheresoever it finds encouragement , it is restless , till it bear down all , or hath put all in disorder : he comes and tells the world , that the nonconformists are no more innocent of the same crimes . can men of sound minds and temperate spirits , believe this ? and what greater advantage can be given the popish party , then that a protestant writer should declare and publish , that so great a part of protestants are equally involved with them in those heinous crimes with which the protestants have always charged them ? and that such a one should tell them , that it will seem unequal to deny a toleration to them , and grant it unto others that are here pleaded for ; which is in effect to say , they have as good reason to expect an indulgence from this state , as others that maintain the doctrine of the church of england , yea , such as communicate in her publike worship . is there no better way of exalting prelacy , and disgracing its supposed adversaries , then by this reproach and damage done to the whole protestant profession ? yea , he so far extenuates the guilt of papists , and brings it down so low , as to make it common to all other sects . in which one would think he should have been more wary , who in one place stretcheth the notion of sect so far , as to make its reason to lye in being different from the established form of church government . now for matter of practice , he imputes the same guilt to all other sects ; and if the papists ( saith he ) have any doctrines which countenance those practises , that is to be accounted as the issue of their insolency in their own greatness . and he implies , that it is onely the want of strength , that other sects are not so bad as they for such kind of doctrine , as well as practice . such passages falling from a protestants pen , may do the papists better service than their late apology . but why doth he say , if the papists have any such doctrines ? doth he not know they have ? the church of england was assured of it , when concerning the adherents of rome , she used this expression in a publike form of prayer , whose religion is rebellion , and whose faith is faction . we wish their eyes were open , who cannot see more permanent and effectual causes of the aforesaid crimes peculiar to that religion , and rooted in the principles thereof . the evidence hereof given in the former discourse , is not needful to be rehersed in this place . this author ( as others that oppose the wayes of amity and peace ) loves to grate upon a string that sounds harsh , to renew the remembrance of the late warr. those distracted times , are the great storehouse and armory , out of which such men do fetch their weapons of offence ; and the great strong-hold , unto which they always retreat when they are vanquished by the force of reason , and then they think they are safe , though therein they contradict the true intent of the act of oblivion . some of those that now so importunately urge the injury and tyranny of those times , did then suf●iciently comply with usurpers ; and left episcopacy to sink or swim ; and did partake of the chiefest favours and preferments that were then conferred . and on the other hand , such as they upbraid , and are now sufferers , did as little comply with those that subverted the government , and did as zealously appear for the rescue of our late sovereign , and for the restitution of his present majesty , as any sort of men in the realm . but to intermeddle in the differences of those times , and to repeat odious matters , and to use recriminations that will disturb the minds of men , and tend to a perpetual mischief , is aliene from , and opposite unto my pacifick endeavours . as for his charging the nonconformists with certain doctrines and positions by him there mentioned ( which i know none that maintains ) and other accusations and reports relating to the time of the warr ; the truth or falshood , the equity or iniquity , the candor or disingenuity of his testimony in those things , is left to the judgment of the righteous god , and of impartial men. sect . ix . whether their inconformity be conscientious or wilful . another part of the proceeding is very unrighteous and presumptuous . the dissenting ministers appeal to god , that they dare not conform for conscience sake . this author hence inferrs , the force of the argument is , there is a necessity of toleration , because they will not conform . is a cannot for conscience sake , of no more force than a bare will not ? but who best knows their hearts , themselves or their adversaries ? he would make the world believe , that not conscience , but obstinacy and faction , is the cause of their holding out , and that the greatest part were trapann'd into nonconformity . that trifling story of their being trapann'd , is not worthy of serious discourse . it is so evident , as not to be denied , that about the time the act of uniformity was to be put in practice , there were motions and overtures of indulgence from the king and some of the great officers of state , who were known to have high affection and esteem for the church of england , yet did approve and promote those overtures as the best expedient for the setling of this church and kingdom . but to let that pass , can men of understanding and candor think , that so many serious persons , who as well as others , may be thought to love themselves , their families and relations , should continue such egregiously obstinate fools , as to refuse the comforts of their temporal being , for a humor , and remain in a state of deprivation , into which they had been meerly trapann'd ? as for the objected unprofitableness of their returning , how doth it appear ? what hinders their capacity of gaining benefices , yea and dignities , if they could conform ? why should they not find as good acceptation as others , in their preaching and conversation ? it may be they would enter too fast , for the good liking of some , into those preferments , who therefore would set such barrs against them , as they should not be able to break thorough . sect . x. of their peaceable inclinations , and readiness to be satisfied . in the late times of usurpation , there were apparent predispositions in this sort of men to peace and concord . the longing desire and expectation that was in them , as much as in any others , of a national settlement , and general composure , did accelerate his majesty's peaceable restauration . surely they were not so stupid as to imagine that great turn of affairs , without the thoughts of their own yeilding , and such as they hoped would be effectual with those of the other perswasion . their early and ready overtures of reconciliation , which are publikely made known , will testifie their moderation , to the present and future ages . their offers of acquiescing in episcopacy regulated , and the liturgy reformed , was on their part , a good advance towards union . his majesty hath given this testimony of them in his declaration : when we were in holland , we were attended by many grave and learned ministers from hence , who were looked upon as the most able and principal assertors of the presbyterian opinions , with whom we had as much conference as the multitude of affairs which were then upon vs , would permit vs to have ; and to our great satisfaction and comfort , found them persons full of affection to vs , of zeal for the peace of the church and state , and neither enemies ( as they had been given out to he ) to episcopacy or liturgy , but modestly to desire such alterations as without shaking foundations , might best allay the present distempers which the indisposition of the time , and the tenderness of some mens consciences had contracted . i wonder at the confidence of that assertion in the answer , that it is sufficiently known , that none of the present nonconformists did in the least measure agree in the use of those little things ; and though desired by the king to read so much of the liturgy as themselves had not exception against , and so could have no pretence from conscience . for it is well known , that some of them did in compliance with the kings desire , read part of the liturgy in their churches . as for others that did not , perhaps for the prevention of scandal they might use their liberty of forbearance till some reformation were obtained . the truth is , the concessions on this side have been abused , to the reproach and disadvantage of the depressed party ; and from their readiness to yeild so far as they can , for the common peace sake , a perverse inference is made , that they might yeild throughout , if humor and faction did not rule them . is there any justice or charity in such dealing ? may not men of upright consciences , and peaceable inclinations , forbear the insisting upon some things to them very desirable , and give place to some things not approved by them as the best in that kind , if so be they might obtain their peace and liberty , by indulgence granted them in other things , wherein conscience binds them up that they cannot yeild ? moreover , some concessions made by particular men of very catholick spirits , in the earnest pursuit of peace , have been wrack'd and wrested to a sense beyond their true import ; and then they that so handle them , triumph in their own conceit , over them , as if they had given up the whole cause . certasnly they are ill employed , who from their brethrens yeelding offers , raise opposition against them , and endeavour to set them further off . sect . xi . the propounded latitude leaves out nothing necessary to secure the church's peace . to set forth the propounded latitude in the particular limits thereof , is not agreeable to a discourse of this nature : for it were presumptuous both in reference to superiors , and to the party concerned in it . and it is unnecessary ; for prejudices being removed , and the conveniency of a greater latitude being acknowledged , the particular boundaries thereof will easily be descried : and indeed , the generals that are expressed , are a sufficient indication thereunto . his majesty's declaration concerning ecclesiastical affairs , hath mentioned particular concessions on both sides , and that harmony of affections therein , he calls excellent foundations to build upon . the moderation and indulgence there specified , would do the work ; i mean not so as if all dissenters would instantly be thereby brought in ; but that our wide breach would presently be healed in great part , and be in the surest way for a total and absolute healing ; and so much would be gained at present , as might be able to conquer the remaining difficulties . the former discourse had this position , that the ends of church-discipline do not require a constitution of narrower bounds , then things necessary to faith and life , and godly order in the church . the answerer saith , that this establishment is not enough for a settlement , because it doth not secure the peace . and to shew the insufficiency thereof , he giveth two instances of discord between the parties ; first , about the persons to whose care the great things of christianity should be intrusted to see them conveyed unto posterity , whether they shall be a single person , or a consistory , or each single congregation . secondly , about the means of conveying those things , the worship of god , and the circumstances thereof . from hence he draws this conclusion , therefore to preserve peace among her members , the church had need to determine more then the great things of christianity ; and to injoyn more then what is barely necessary to faith and order . verily , it may much amuse one to think what that thing should be in the ecclesiastical polity , which is not necessary to christian faith and life , and godly order in the church , and yet necessary to secure the church's peace . and if the aforesaid instances of discord between the church of england and the dissenters are not necessary to faith or order , what reason can be rendred of the inexorable imposition thereof , upon dissenting or doubting consciences ? can it be necessary to the church's peace , to exclude or deprive men for such differences in which neither faith nor order are concerned ? or is this the answerer's meaning , that the church's peace consists in the exclusion of the nonconformists ; and that the necessary use of some injunctions , stands in keeping them out ; so that not their conformity , but their exclusion is the thing therby intended ? the comprehension doth not suppose ( as it is mis-reported ) that presbytery should be permitted or encouraged . all intermedling with the form of church-government , was declined ; only the prescribed uniformity was considered . besides , for the exact presbyterial form to be comprehended in episcopacy , is contradictory ; yet that something of presbytery should be included in it , is not repugnant . and such a comprehension is approved in his majesty's aforesaid declaration . likewise king charles the first , in his discourse touching the differences between himself and the two houses , in this point , declares that he is not against the managing of the episcopal presidency in one man , by the joint counsel and consent of many presbyters ; but that he had offered to restore it as a fit means to avoid those errors , and corruptions and partialities which are incident to any one man ; also to avoid tyranny , which becomes no christians , least of all church-men . but neither this nor the former treatise , interposeth in this matter , but leaves it to the wisdom of our superiors . the desired latitude leaves not the concernments of church or state to the ingenuity of men , nor casts out any injunctions that are means of peace and unity ; yea , or of that necessary decency which the apostle requires ; only of rites and opinions long disputed , it would take in no more then needs must ; and not meerly because they have been long disputed , but because they are also of little value , ( and here confessed not to be necessary to faith and order ) yet are matters of endless controversie in this church , and occasions of great separation from it . it being asserted , that the indisputable truths of faith , and the indispensable duties of life , are the main object of church-discipline , the answerer demands , what are those indisputable truths , since there is scarce any truth of faith that hath not been disputed against ? what manner of arguing is this ? because all truths have been disputed , doth it follow , that there are no indisputable truths ? that is called indisputable , that cannot reasonably or justly be disputed , though men of corrupt minds , and reprobate concerning the faith , will call the greatest truths in question , and resist the clearest evidence . when the apostle mentions matters of doubtful disputations , he implies there be matters that are indubitable . sect . xii . of acquiescence in the commands of superiors , and the proper matter of their injunctions . in the former treatise this argument was used . the church doth not claim an infallibility , therefore the cannot settle the conscience by her sole warrant , but still leaves room for doubting . the answerer makes this to be either a piece of ignorance , or of portentous malice , and an assertion that would disturb all government both in families and in the state , that would confound all society , and extirpate faith and justice from among the sons of men . but this his strange inference rather is portentous . that the church cannot settle the conscience by her sole warrant , is it not a principle maintained by all protestants in opposition to the popish implicit faith , and blind obedience ? but is this person consistent with himself ? for after he hath a while expatiated in his imaginary hideous consequences , he comes himself to deny that the church bindeth the conscience by her own authority . and yet it is a lesser thing to bind the conscience , than to settle it , and leave no room for doubting . for conscience may be obliged , when it is not setled . and if the church cannot oblige , doubtless she cannot settle the conscience by her sole authority . how then could a man of reason draw such hideous inferences from that position ? if i may give way to conjectures , i suspect that he might take check at the word infallibility , by which i intend no more then infallible direction ; and i fear not to own this assertion , that whosoever have not infallible direction , or the certain assistance of an infallible guide , so as to be exempted from all error in what they propound for belief or practice , cannot settle the conscience by their sole warrant . i still aver , that in prescribed forms and rites of religion , the conscience that doth its office , will interpose and concern it self . and it is matter of astonishment that a learned protestant should say , this position must needs be false . for conscience guided by the fear of god , will use all just means to discern his will , and cannot resign it self to the dictates of men in the points of divine worship . if the judgment of discerning , which makes men differ from brutes , be to be exercised in any case , it is chiefly requisite in these matters wherein the glory of god , and the saving of the soul is so much concerned . it is granted , that to maintain peace and unity in the church , and to be obedient to the higher powers in those things which are proper matter for their commands , are most strictly injoined duties . but the injunctions here considered ( though to the imposers they are but things indifferent , that is , neither commanded nor forbidden of god ) in the consciences of dissenters , are unlawful . to instance in some controverted ceremonies , they think that god hath determined against them , though not in particular , yet in the general prohibition of all uncommanded worship . and they reply , whether it be right in the sight of god to hearken unto men more then unto god , judg ye . to restrain that of the apostle , he that doubts is damned if he eat , only to things wherein the church hath not interposed her authority , is a false gloss , and a begging of the question . what human authority can warrant any one to put in practice an unlawful or suspected action , or to make profession of a known or suspected falshood ? as concerning the rights of superiors , it is the church's duty and honour to teach and command her children to do whatsoever christ hath commanded . and it is the chiefest glory , and most proper work of the magistrate , who is gods minister and vicegerent , to be custos & vindex utriusque tabulae , to incourage and inforce obedience to the divine laws , whether written in the bible , or imprinted in our nature ; and in subserviency thereunto , to have power to determine such things as are requisite in the general , but in the particulars are left undetermined of god , and are to be ordered by human prudence , according to the light of nature , and the general rules of gods word . but things indifferent in their nature , and either offensive in their use , or needless and superfluous , are not worthy to be made the proper matter of his commands . it is a grave and weighty saying of a learned man ( of whatsoever perswasion he were ) if the special guides and pastors of the church , would be a little sparing of incumbring churches with superfluities , or not over-rigid , either in reviving obsolete customs , or imposing new , there would be far less cause of schism and superstition ; and all the inconvenience that were likely to ensue , would be but this , that in so doing they should yeeld a little to the imbecillity of their inferiors ; a thing which st. paul would never have refused to do . sect . xiii . of the alledged reasons of the ecclesiastical injunctions in the beginning of the reformation . the answerer relates at large the proceeding of this church in the beginning of the reformation . the sum of the relation is , that there being two sorts of men , one that thought it a great matter of conscience to depart from the least ceremony , they were so addicted to their old customs ; the other so new-fangled , that they would innovate all things , and nothing would satisfie them but that which was new ; it was necessary for the church to interpose for peace sake , and casting off neither party , to please each to their edification ; and also to injoyn some things to the common observance of all , and therefore she took away the excessive multitude of ceremonies , as those that were dark , and abused to superstition and covetousness , but retained those few that were for decency , discipline , and apt to stir up the dull mind of man to the remembrance of his duty to god. we have good warrant to call in question the truth of his narration in things of the greatest weight . first , it is not true that the party that were for ceremonies , comprehended all those who staid at home , and did not flye in the time of queen mary's persecution . for such as dissented from the ceremonies in the time of that persecution , had their assemblies for the worship of god in this land , and indured among others , in the fiery trial. and we can find but little zeal in the martyrs of those days for this kind of conformity . likewise it is not true that the party that were against ceremonies , were but small , as being but some few of those that fled beyond sea : there is clear evidence to the contrary . an historian zealous for conformity , even unto bitterness , reports in his ecclesia restaurata , that in the beginning of queen elizabeth's reign , many that were disaffected to episcopacy and ceremonies , were raised to great preferments . besides , those that were in ecclesiastical dignities , he observes , that the queens professor at oxford , and the margaret professor in cambridg , were among the nonconformists . for the multitude of dissenters in those dayes , there is a notable testimony of a friend of prelacy , in his letter to mr. richard hooker , about the writing of his ecclesiastical polity , in these words : it may be remembred , that at the first the greatest part of the learned in the land , were either eagerly affected , or favourably inclined to that way ; the books then written , savoured for the most part , of the disciplinary stile ; it sounded every where in the pulpits , and in the common phrase of mens speech ; and the contrary part began to fear they had taken a wrong course . there is as little truth and justice in that report , that the party that were against ceremonies , caused the troubles at frankford , and brought a dishonor to the reformation , and infamy upon our nation . the english congregation at frankford , was setled after the discipline of the foreign reformed churches , and enjoyed much peace , till certain eminent men , zealous of the english forms and rites , came among them , and by a high hand brought in the liturgy , and brake them to pieces , and forced away the ministers , and those members that were in the first forming and setling of that church . afterward , they that remained and received the liturgy , continued not long in unity , but in a short time an incurable and scandalous schism brake out between the pastor , and almost the whole congregation . lastly , there is a great mistake in the main business of the narrative , in representing things as setled by the church of england in the beginning of the queen's reign , to please each party in the abolishing of some , and the retaining of other ceremonies : whereas at the reviving the reformation at that time , the ceremonies then abolished were offensive to all protestants , and nothing appears to be done in favour of the anticeremonial party , about the points in difference . but things were carried to a greater height against their way , than in king edward's time , whose reformation was thought to incline more to that which was afterwards called puritanism . for which cause the historian before mentioned , hath written , that that king being ill principled , his death was no infelicity to the church of england . the truth of the matter is , that in the first times of the queen , whose reign was to be sounded in the protestant religion , the wisdom of the state intended chiefly the bringing over of the whole body of the people , and to settle them in that profession ; and therefore thought fit to make no more alteration from their old forms , then was necessary to be made . care was taken , that no part of the liturgy might be offensive to the papists , and they accordingly resorted to our divine service for the first ten years . also the retaining of the ceremonies , was a matter of condescention to the popish party , the state thereby testifying how far they would stoop to gain them , by yeelding as far as they might in their own way . now long experience hath shewed , that what was done with respect to the peace of former times , and reconciling of papists to protestants , is become an occasion of dividing protestants from one another , without hope of converting papists . sect . xiv . the alledged reasons , why the ceremonies are not to be taken away , examined . divers reasons are alledged to prove a continued necessity for these ceremonies , as , because they that are for the church , are unwilling to have them taken away : to revoke them , is to comply with those that will never be satisfied : imputations have been laid upon the things injoyned , as antichristian , idolatrous , superstitious : a warr was undertook to remove them : and it is a reproach to the church , whose foundation is upon the truth , to be various . hereunto we make answer : whosoever delight in the use of the ceremonies , may enjoy their liberty ; but let it suffice them to use it , without laying a stumbling-block before others , or intangling their consciences , or hindring all of a contrary perswasion from the ministry , from teaching school , yea , and from taking any academical degree . with what soberness can it be said , the dissenters will never be satisfied , when hitherto they were never tryed with any relaxation or indulgence , although they have given evident proofs of their unfeigned desires of accommodation ? they do indeed esteem the ceremonies an excess in the worship of god ; but suppose that some have been immoderate in disparaging those rituals ; on the other hand , shall their value be so inhansed , as to be thought more worth then the church's unity , and the exercise of mutual charity among its members ? may not the church salve her honour , by declaring , that in remitting these injunctions , she meerly yeelds to the infirmity of weak consciences ? as st. paul declared concerning abstaining from meats , who had as much power to make a canon , as any sort or number of ecclesiastical persons can now pretend unto . as concerning the late warr , it is easier said then proved , that it was undertaken to remove the ceremonies ; and it was not so declared by those that managed it . but if it were so indeed , as it is here suggested , let this argument be well weighed , a dreadful warr that had a dismal issue , was undertaken to remove certain ceremonies that at the best are but indifferent , therefore let them never be removed , but still inforced to the uttermost upon consciences that disallow them . as for the reproach of the church by the appearance of being various , we conceive the controverted ceremonies are no foundation of the church of england , nor any substantial part of her religion , and do therefore hope , that some indulgence therein will not fix upon her any brand of inconstancy . it is objected , that the popish priests would hereby take advantage . it seems then , that greater care must be taken that the papists , who are implacable adversaries , be not offended , then that many thousand honestly minded protestants should be relieved . but the strangest reason comes up last . dissentions about things indifferent , have necessitated the church to make these injunctions : that is , say the things are but indifferent , yet great dissentions have risen about them , and are like to continue without end ; therefore the church hath been necessitated to impose them with great severity upon multitudes who esteem them unlawful , and all for this end , that dissentions may be removed . we are astonished at this argument from the pen of a learned man. the truth is , these alledged reasons have more of animosity in them , then of equity ; charity , or good advice . indeed the apostle saith , mark those that cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine that ye have received ; but he doth not so brand those that scruple unwritten traditions , and needless ceremonies , but adhere to the intire doctrine of christ , and all divine institutions . sect . xv. of the diversity of opinion and practice already permitted in the church of england . the moderation of the church of england in the articles of predestination , divine grace , and free-will , being urged against the rigorous imposition of the controverted orders and ceremonies , this answer is made , that the case is not the same , for that those points are so full of difficulty , that they , and questions of that nature , have been matter of dispute in all ages , and in all religions ; but about the orders and ceremonies , this is the only thing to be resolved , whether the church hath power to injoin an indifferent ceremony ? but there is no such difference in the case . the question of things indifferent , hath been mistaken for the grand case of the nonconformists ; for those points which are the main reason and matter of their inconformity , are by them accounted not indifferent , but unlawful , and therefore not to be admitted in their practice , till their consciences be better satisfied . and it is not irrational to think , that serious doubtings may arise in sober minds about some parts of the injoyned uniformity , and particularly , about those ceremonies which seem to draw near to the significancy and moral efficacy of sacraments , and thereupon may appear to some not as meer circumstances , but as parts of divine worship , and their consciences may be struck with terror by the sense of god's jealousie about any instituted worship which himself hath not prescribed . moreover , these orders and ceremonies have been matters of dispute in all times since the beginning of protestant reformation . but under the degenerate state of the christian churches , by the great apostacy of the later times , there could be no occasion of disputing these things , when will-worship was generally exalted , and the grossest idolatries had prevailed . i question the truth of that assertion , that the dissenters cannot name one church besides ours , in which there was a schism made for a ceremony . for a great rent was made in the christian church throughout the world , about a ceremony , or as small a matter , to wit , the time of celebrating the feast of easter . but whensoever a schism is made , let them that cause it , look to it , and lay it to heart . wo to the world because of offences , and wo to that man by whom the offence cometh ▪ but we still insist upon this argument , that these rites being at the best but indifferent in the opinion of the imposers , the observation of them cannot in reason be esteemed of such importance to the substance of religion , as the different opinions about the articles aforesaid are . and who knows not with what animosity and vehemence the parties that are called arminian and antiarminian , have fought against one another ; and what dreadful and destructive consequences they pretend to draw from each others opinions ? now put case the more prevalent party in the church of england should go about to determine those controversies on the one side , or the other , ( and truly they were sometimes determined by a synod in his majesty's dominions , namely by that of dublin in the year 1615 , also by the greatest prelates , and most eminent doctors in england , in the lambeth-articles ; and what hath been , may again come to pass ) would not that side against whom the decision passeth , be ready to cry out of oppression ? yea , how great a rent would be made by it through the whole fabrick of this church ? furthermore , in ceremonies publikely used , and matters of open practice , the church of england hath thought good to indulge dissents , as in that of bowing toward the altar , or the east , unless it be required by the local statutes of particular societies . and in this the sons of the church do bear with one another , according to the direction of the canons made in the year 1640. unto which may be added , that the mode of worship in cathedrals , is much different from that in parochial churches . likewise some ministers before their sermon use a prayer of their own conceiving ; others onely ( as the phrase is ) bid prayer . if these and other varieties , be no reproach to our church , will it reproach her to suffer one to officiate with a surpliss , and another without it ? sect . xvi . men differently perswaded in the present controversies , may live together in peace . it is no vain speculation , to think we may have peace , if men perswaded in their consciences that the controverted ceremonies are superstitious , or at the best but trifles , and that the liturgy and ecclesiastical polity , need some reformation , should be joined with men far otherwise perswaded . and the preserving of peace in that case , doth not suppose or require that all these differently perswaded men , will be wise on both sides to content themselves with their own opinions : but it supposeth the state , and the chief guides of the church , to be wise , ( as it is always requisite they should be ) and that many of reputation and eminency on both sides , will be prudent and temperate , and examples of moderation to others , ( and not to suppose this is to disparage and debase our present age ) but above all , it supposeth the publike constitution so well stated and setled , as to be able to curb the imprudent and unsober , and to encourage the modest and well-advised . surely all dissenters upon conscience , will not be prevailed with by the same conscience , to endeavour the propagation of their own way in these differences , to the depression of others . if some offer to disturb the peace , can no rule of government restrain them ? it is a deplorable case indeed , if there be no remedy but for those that are favoured by the higher powers , utterly to exclude and reject those that want the like favour and countenance . at this day the church of england by her present latitude , or at least connivence , keeps peace among her sons of such different perswasions , as formerly stirred up great dissentions in this church . who is ignorant of the contentions raised about the arminian controversies in the several reigns of queen elizabeth , king james , and king charles the first ? but in the present times , the mutual forbearance on both sides , but chiefly the church's prudence , hath lay'd asleep those controversies ; whereas if one side presuming upon its power and prevalency , should go about ( as formerly ) to decry and depress the other , and to advance and magnifie themselves , and ingross the preferments , doubtless the like flames would break out again . for there is a great dislike and abhorrency setled at the heart-root of both these parties against each others opinions ; and a sutable occasion would soon draw it out to an open contestation . now if the church's peace and unity be already maintained in such seemingly dangerous diversity of opinion among her members and officers , and those not of the meanest rank , why should her prudence and polity he suspected as insufficient to maintain unity and peace in the indulging of the differently perswaded in the now disputed rites and opinions ? sect . xvii . of dissenters of narrower principles , and of toleration . the latitude discoursed in the former treatise , is unjustly impeached , as providing onely for the presbyterians , and relinquishing all other dissenters ; for it comprehends within the establishment , those of all sorts that are of principles congruous to stated order in the church ; so that no sort is excluded , whose principles make them capable . and was this capacity any where restrained to the presbyterians ? some nonconformists are for moderated episcopacy , after the form of the ancient churches ; and divers others , as to particular forms of government , are latitudinarians ; and others there are besides these , who would live peaceably under the present hierarchy , might they be spared from the personal profession or practice of some things which they think unlawful or doubtful . moreover , beyond the established order , the latitude includes a toleration for those that are of sound faith , and good life , but have taken up some principles of church-government less congruous to national settlement . i cannot yeeld to that position , that only necessity can give colour to toleration , for that it is by the confession of all , one of those things that are not good in their nature . i suppose that christians bearing with one another in tolerable differences , is a branch of brotherly love ; and therefore charity , as well as necessity , may plead for this way of indulgence . but it is objected , that we want an instance of the safety of toleration , in any nation where the supreme governour had not a standing army to circumscribe and confine the heats of dissenters in religion , to their own breasts , and keep off the destructive effects of schism . let me reply , that this maxime , that no toleration of dissenters , howsoever regulated , can be safely granted by the supreme governour that hath not a standing army , makes little for the safety and liberty of true religion . the protestants that live under the princes of the roman faith , are little beholding to one that publisheth to the world , that those princes can with safety tolerate them no longer then they keep up a standing army to keep off the destructive effects of that which they call schism . one may see by this and other instances , what bias the judgment hath , by the zeal of a party , and how it is brought to assert such things as may expose the true religion to the danger of suppression or extirpation in many countries . but hath the french king less assurance of the loyalty of his protestant subjects , then of the roman-catholicks ? would a necessity be laid upon him to maintain constant forces to keep the protestants in obedience , when he could rule the rest of his people without such terror ? or is toleration the reason of a standing army in the united provinces of the netherlands ? in this latitude no other toleration is pleaded for , then what can be made safe and secure by the ordinary ways of legal government . both duty and interest obligeth all sorts to proceed as far as it is possible in complying with their superiors ; and if the uncontrolable power of conscience inforce them to lye without the pale of the established order , they should deem that exclusion their great unhappiness . but so it is , that prudent and pious men may be of exceeding narrow principles about church-order and fellowship . christian charity pleadeth for indulgence towards them ; and we hope political prudence doth not gainsay it . for although their way may fall far short of setling a nation , yet they may have spirits and principles very consistent with publike tranquility . and their indulgence may be obtained by a good understanding and confidence between them and the higher powers , the clemency of the one shewing favour in that extent which the publike order may safely tolerate ; and the humility and discretion of the other , causing them to prise the favour , and to use it rightly . that such condescention and clemency should be used on the one side , and such humility and modesty on the other , why should it seem impossible ? for the one may see , that by granting some limited liberty , the protection of christs flock , and the satisfaction of well-minded subjects may become more universal : and the other may likewise see , that a smaller party , and those of narrow principles , are of themselves in no wise proportionable to the state of this nation ; and therefore that they cannot well subsist , but in conjunction with , and subordination unto an establishment more commensurate to the whole body of the people . this necessary subordination , may beget a mutual confidence and security . if it be said , the tolerated party may become dangerous or suspected , it is always supposed that they stand by their good behaviour , and the rulers favour . but they are not like to prove dangerous , if the establishment be large enough . for the narrowness thereof makes the dissenters numerous , and still encreaseth their number . sect . xviii . it is the interest of the nonconformists to prefer comprehension before toleration , where conscience doth not gainsay . if it can be made evident , that the nonconformists should embrace a comprehension as the surest means of their particular good , it will conduce exceedingly to evince , that the favour of rulers will not be in vain towards them ; and that their petitions , discourses , and other instances for moderation , were not feigned , because grounded on their true interest that cannot lye . were they united among themselves , and did the times highly favour them , even then it were their wisdom not to insist too far upon their own perswasions , but to comply with such moderate order as is most passable in the nation , ( their consciences not gainsaying ) much more doth it now behove them , by moderation and submission to dispose themselves for the favour of their superiors . they should chuse rather ( if it be possible for them ) to be comprehended in the approved , then to be tolerated in a severed way . for there is not so much lost thereby in point of liberty , but as much or more is gained in point of safety . it is a happiness to be secured from dangerous wanderings , perplexities , breaches , and manifold inconveniences , into which they may be led that are wholly left without the line of the established order . those persons that by their wisdom and learning can the better defend themselves from the aforesaid evils in a severed state , cannot be ignorant how precipitate and unadvisable many of their number may be , and not so easily to be governed by their more prudent guides . men of discerning and stable judgments , would do their uttermost to preserve the more inconsiderate people from falling into a full and absolute separation from all christian societies that are not of their perswasion . for they may easily apprehend into how great and dangerous errors that vortex may carry about those that fall into it . they that are best able to govern themselves , do see most need of a publike government , and how necessary it is , that both people and teachers be under the regulation and influence of authority , for the avoiding of many and great inconveniencies . and there are many and great benefits , by being comprehended in the approved order , not otherwise to be obtained . their peace is better insured , their influence is more diffusive , their instances and motions for the common good , will be more regarded . they have a larger scope for imploying their masters talent in the publike service of the gospel , and they may speak with more authority , and better success among all ranks and sorts of men , who will look upon them as theirs , when they hold their publike stations . unto all this may be added , that the ancient nonconformists earnestly opposed the separation of the brownists , and held communion with the church of england in its publike worship . and doubtless it is the ministers interest , not to have their subsistence by the arbitrary benevolence of the people , and so to live in continual dependance upon their mutable dispositions for a maintenance that is poor and low in comparison of the publike encouragements . hereby one may partly judg , whether learned and prudent men be nonconformists by the pleasure of their own will , or the constraining-force of conscience . now their consciences may be relieved , if they be not made personally to profess or practice any thing against the dictates thereof . and retaining their own private judgments , they may well hold to this catholick principle , that in a church acknowledged to be sound in doctrine , and in the substance or main parts of divine worship , and not defective in any vital part of christian religion , they are bound to bear with much which they take to be amiss in others practice , in which they do not personally bear a part themselves ▪ as concerning a form of church-government , and rule of discipline , men that understand their own interest , cannot for self-ends ( as they have been upbraided ) couet the power of such a discipline as inevitably procures envy and ill-will , without any temporal profit or dignity . and if the higher powers will not admit such a form , ( i deliver my own private judgment , without prejudice to other mens ) this may tend to satisfie the subjects conscience . that ecclesiastical government is necessarily more directed and ordered in the exercise thereof , by the determinations of the civil magistrate , in places where the true religion is maintained , then where it is persecuted or disregarded . and they that have received the power , must answer to god for it : they that are discharged from it , shall never account for that whereof they have been bereaved . sect . xix . it behoves both the comprehended and the tolerated , to prefer the common interest of religion , and the setling of the nation , before their own particular perswasions . as those dissenters , whose consciences will permit , will best comply with their own good , by entring into the establishment , if a door be open for their access : so they of narrower principles , that cannot enter into it , will be safest within the limits of such indulgence as authority would vouchsafe to grant them , with respect to the common good. men of all perswasions should rather chuse to be limited by publike rules , with mutual confidence between their governors and themselves , then to be left to the liberty of their own affections , upon terms uncertain and unsecure . besides the concernment of their own peace , there is this great perswasive , that this advice is a compliance with that state of things which will best satisfie and settle the nation , and maintain reformed religion against popery , and christianity against atheism and infidelity . true englishmen , and lovers of their dear countrey , which is impaired and reproached by these breaches , should yeeld as much to its wealth and honour , as their consciences can allow . loyal subjects and good patriots should consider what the kingdom will bear , and prefer such bounded liberty of comprehension and indulgence , as tends to union , before a loose , though larger liberty , that will keep the breaches open , and the minds of people unquiet and unsetled . and it is not of little moment to mind this , that the high concerns of conscience cannot be better secured then in the peace and safety of the excellent constitution of this kingdom . for the amplitude of reformed religion , all true protestants should promote an ample establishme●t thereof , both for the incompassing of all that be sound in that profession , as also for the more capacious reception of those that may become converts thereunto . and not onely the encrease and glory thereof , but its stability in these dominions , is promoted by such an ample establishment . witness our great defence against popery , by the common zeal of all protestants of the several perswasions , for protestancy in general . by this concurrent zeal , the insolencies of the papists have been repressed , and their confidences defeated . could the protestant conformists or nonconformists , either of them upon their own single account , if one should exterminate , or utterly disable the other , be so well secured against popery , as now they are by their common interest ? and to imagine by rigor to compel the depressed party to incorporate with the party advanced , so that one should acquire the strength of both , would in the issue be found a great error . by such proceeding ▪ indeed , a party may be wounded and broken , and rendred unserviceable to the common good , but shall never be gained as an addition of strength to those who have so handled them . but an accommodation would make both to be as one . and seeing in their present divided state , the concurrent zeal of both hath been so formidable , as to dash the hopes of the popish party , how much more in a state of union , might their strength increase against their common adversaries ! wherefore , the one should open the way , and the other should readily come in upon just terms . this should be the rather minded on both sides , because the considerate nonconformists will never promote their own liberty by such ways and means as would bring in a toleration of popery ; yea , they would rather help to bear up the present ecclesiastical state , then that popery should break in by anarchy , or the dissolution of all church-government . moreover , an ample , fixed state ecclesiastical , is necessary to uphold and encrease true religion , as well against infidelity , as against popery . the loose part of the world would turn to a weariness and contempt of divine institutions , and christianity it self would be much endangered in a state of ataxy and unfixedness . by what ordinary means hath the doctrine and institution of christ been propagated and perpetuated in large kingdoms and nations , and in the universe , but by incompassing under its external rule and order , great multitudes that may fall short of the life and power thereof . and it doth not root and spread in any sort considerable , in a region , where the external order is set by the rigid and narrow principles of a small party , and the general multitude lyes open as wast ground , for any to invade or occupy . let considerate men judg how much the ample state of a meer orthodox profession , is to be preferred before infidelity , or popery , or any other sect of the christian name , that is idolatrous or heretical . there be few converts to the power of godliness , from infidelity or popery , or any heresie , but they are generally made out of the mass of people of an orthodox profession . if it be the will of god that one must suffer for the cause of religion , it is more for the honour of christianity to suffer from infidels , then from papists ; likewise it is more for the honour of reformed religion , to suffer from papists , then from protestants . and if it were at ones own choice , one should much rather ( caeteris paribus ) suffer in defence of the main truths of christianity , then for refusing a ceremony , or for any other part of inconformity . for this cause a union is so desirable , that these bitternesses , reproaches and scandals , might cease from among us . lastly , whatsoever enlargement we have granted by the favour of our lawful superiors , we have it in the best way , and a blessing is in it . sect . xx. episcopacy will gain more by moderation , then by severity in these differences . the answerer enumerates many reasons why a form of church-government should meet with many difficulties in its return after a proscription of twenty years ; and concludes it must be a generation or two , not seven years , that can wear out all those difficulties . on the other side he saith , presbytery languished almost as soon as it had a being , &c. i perceive presbytery is a great eye-sore . peradventure i may be reckoned a presbyterian ; and to say the truth , i am not ashamed of their company that are commonly called by that name ; yet i have no pleasure in such names of distinction . i am of a perswasion , but not of a party ; and whatsoever my perswasion be , it is moderate , catholick and pacifick . neither my design nor my principles engage me to maintain the presbyterial government . nevertheless i cannot but take notice with how little reason the intrinsick strength of prelacy , or weakness of presbytery , is argued from the duration of the one and the other in this kingdom . had presbytery the strength of the civil power ? or was it ever formed in england ? was it not crush'd while it was an embryo , by the prevailing potency of its adversaries ? look into those states where it hath been established , if you would judg aright concerning it . on the other hand , hath not prelacy had all the strength of law and power engaged in its defence , by the encouragements of worldly grandure for its favourers , and by severities inflicted on its impugners for above fourscore years ? in which space of time , none could appear against it without the hazard of utter undoing , or great suffering . and though it were thus born up , not for seven years , but almost a century , yet we do not find that it had worn out the difficulties of those times , which were not so many and great as this author reports its present difficulties to be , in its return after a proscription of twenty years . but there is a more excellent and surer way , which , it is hoped , may attain to a happier end in less time then a generation or two . if the distemper of minds were healed , and unchristian enmities laid aside , then moderation being sincerely begun , would hold on , and make the disagreeing parties to be still more yeelding , and mutually obliging ; those provocations and prejudices would then cease , by which they have been mutually alienated , and hurried into such hostilities , and they would not be tempted in their own defence ( as they think ) to strengthen themselves by evil advantages . if episcopacy yeeld to a moderate course , why should any prudent dissenters go about to molest it ? for in so doing they would but perpetuate their own trouble and unquiet state , seeing that diversities of opinions , and occasions of discord are like to continue about forms of church-government , until forms shall be no more . on the other side , why should the episcopal clergy dread that moderation that would render episcopacy more generally inoffensive and acceptable , and put some end to the hitherto uncessant struglings against it ? are they jealous that the structure of their government may be weakned , and at length dissolved ? they might rather apprehend it might gain assistance and reputation from many that now either by constraint and necessity , or by provocation and prejudice are made its adversaries . who so searcheth to the root of the matter , shall find , that not so much the species of government , nor the forms that are used as weightier matters , have been the chief stumbling-block , and the occasions of the greatest disgust and aversation . neither the episcopal office nor habit , doth affright this sort of people from hearing a bishop preach to their edification . the right and sure way to establish episcopacy in a land where reformed christianity is established , is not to urge precise conformity in opinions and orders , and doubtful things of meer human determination ; but to encourage soundness in the faith , ability and industry in the proper work of the ministry , and a conversation becoming the gospel ; and to discourage pluralities , nonresidencies , licentiousness and idleness in all sorts , who serve not christ , but themselves , in their sacred functions , and whose end is onely to live in pomp , wealth and pleasure . will the church-governors say ( as it hath been answered ) they are bound up by the laws ; and if patrons present unworthy persons which have the qualifications the law requires , the bishops must not reject them ; nor can they turn them out at their pleasure , but must give an account to the laws . to this i reply , if the admission and permission of unworthy ministers , comes to pass not by the bishops administration , but by the defectiveness of the laws , why hath not their zeal excited them in the space of so many years , and several princes reigns , to endeavour the obtaining of laws effectual on that behalf , as it hath to procure and make , from time to time , stricter and stricter injunctions about conformity and ceremonies ? for we know no reason why as full and vigorous laws may not be made against ignorant , negligent and scandalous ministers , as against nonconformists . conscience , honour and safety , obligeth the episcopal clergy to turn the edg of their discipline the right way , and to shew its energy and vigor , not about ceremonies , but the great and weighty matters of christian religion . and i believe that many worthy ministers of the church of england , are so perswaded . wherefore , in the former discourse i cast no evil reflection upon the latitudinarians , or any moderate persons ; nor represented them as conforming not sincerely , and as becomes the ministers of christ. they may sincerely , according to their principles , submit to these impositions , and yet not like the imposing . the expression of their lukewarmness in conformity , signified no more but this , that they set a rate upon these matters according to the value , and that they bear but an indifferent respect to things that at the best are but indifferent . it is objected against me , that having provided a place of rest for my self and my party , in the stated order , i am little sollicitous for others . i do here solemnly profess , that i am chiefly sollicitous for the tranquility and rest of a troubled nation . as for my own concernment , my deprivation is an affliction to me ; and i would do any thing that were not sin to me , to recover the liberty of my publike service in the church : but if it cannot be , i submit to his good pleasure , by whose determinate counsel all things are brought to pass , and am contented to remain a silenced sufferer for conscience towards god. yea , i should much rejoice in such enlargement of the publike rule , as might give a safe entrance to others , though i my self by some invincible strictness of apprehension , should remain excluded ; for i have no faction to uphold , and by others gain i am nothing lessened . and in my opinion , it will be no dividing of the nonconsormists , or weakning of their interest , if a part of them might close with the approved order of the nation , enlarged to the latitude of their judgments , when others of streighter judgments are left without . indeed , if they were a faction , they might lose or lessen themselves hereby : but reformed christianity is their grand interest , and their main cause lyes not in any avowed difference of doctrines between them and the episcopal protestants , nor in any secular advantages to hold to themselves in a divided state , but in the advancement of gods kingdom by the encrease of true christian faith and piety . the answerer hath used many hard speeches against me , and charged me with malice in divers passages , which i answer not in particular , because the innocence and inoffensiveness of my words will clear it self ; and because i would not make this discourse tedious , by replying to things impertinent to the main scope . it shall suffice me to add , that i have written these things , as knowing that the judg standeth before the dore. finis . the contents . sect 1. of the foundation of our peace already laid in the religion of the nation , and the structure thereof , to be perfected by the vnity of that profession . 2. the good of the several parties is best secured by common equity , and the good of the vniversality . 3. what may be esteemed a good constitution of the state ecclesiastical . 4. the comprehensiveness of the establishment , and the allowance of a just latitude of dissents , is the best remedy against dissentions . 5. whether the present dissentions are but so many factions in the state. 6. whether the nonconformists principles tend to sects and schisms . 7. of their principles touching obedience and government . 8. of placing them in the same rank for crime and guilt , with the papists . 9. whether their inconformity be conscientious or wilful . 10. of their peaceable inclinations , and readiness to be satisfied . 11. the propounded latitude leaves out nothing necessary to secure the churches peace . 12. of acquiescence in the commands of superiors , and the proper matter of their injunctions . 13. of the alledged reasons of the ecclesiastical injunctions in the beginning of the reformation . 14. the alledged reasons why the ceremonies are not to be taken away , examined . 15 ▪ of the diversity of opinion and practice already permitted in the church of england . 16. men differently perswaded in the present controversies , may live together in peace . 17. of dissenters of narrower principles and of toleration . 18. it is the interest of the nonconformists to prefer comprehension before toleration , where conscience doth not gainsay . 19. it behoves both the comprehended and the tolerated to prefer the common interest of religion , and the setling of the nation , before their own particular perswasions . 20. episcopacy will gain more by moderation , then by severity in these differences . the present state of the protestants in france in three letters / written by a gentleman at london to his friend in the country. gentleman at london. 1681 approx. 95 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 18 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2008-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a55723 wing p3274 estc r29406 11096100 ocm 11096100 46344 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a55723) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 46344) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1428:21) the present state of the protestants in france in three letters / written by a gentleman at london to his friend in the country. gentleman at london. [6], 28 p. printed for john holford, london : 1681. "the first shews the privileges granted them by the edict of nantes. the second sets forth the injustice that is done them and the cruelties that are used to force them to renounce their religion. the third vindicates their innocence and their loyalty." reproduction of original in the university of illinois (urbana-champaign campus). library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng france. -edit de nantes. reformation -france. france -church history -17th century. 2007-01 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-01 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-06 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2007-06 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the present state of the protestants in france . in three letters . written by a gentleman at london to his friend in the country . the first shews the privileges granted them by the edict of nantes . the second sets forth the injustice that is done them , and the cruelties that are used to force them to renounce their religion . the third vindicates their innocence , and their loyalty . london , printed for john holford , book-seller in the pall-mall over against s. alban's-street . 1681. to the reader . i am under a necessity of begging excuse for what follows : because it will come short of the title-page , which promises three letters . the truth is , the third was in a manner ready ; when so many fresh instances of the barbarity used to the poor protestants in france , came to my hands : that i found my self obliged either to defer any account for some time ; or else to publish these two letters by themselves : but i must confess i was not long in taking my choice . for i saw it so requisite to say something presently : that i resolved out of hand to publish these my two first letters . the enemy has been so industrious as to way-lay these poor people : and whilst they will not suffer them to live in france , they endeavour to prevent their subsisting any where else . amongst some they are represented as enemies to the religion establish'd ; however , they profess the same faith , and desire to be esteemed as brethren . amongst others they are made to appear a mix'd multitude , part protestant , part papist : whereas it is as impossible for any number of papists , or indeed almost any to thrust themselves in amongst them undiscovered ; as it would be for a black amongst whites . their ministers are such as have had their education amongst them , well known and approved , before admitted to that office ; strictly observed , and under a careful discipline after admission : their people well acquainted and observed among themselves , as is usual for such as are under a persecution , or the jealous eye of their superiors . besides greater care cannot be taken , than is by the french churches , to whom the recommendation of all that come over is remitted , to see that their attestations and testimonials are true and substantial : and i hope the printed advertisement has already given satisfaction in this point . but that nothing may be wanting to augment the misery of these poor fugitives , and render them at the same time worse than unprofitable to their brethren : it is suggested to the common people , that they come to take the bread out of their mouths , by over-stocking those populous manufactures , which seem already rather to be overcharged , and by surfeiting the land with people . which objection , if we consider strictly according to interest , comes not up to any weight or consideration . for many of the manufactures they bring over , are such as we had not before , and by consequence of the greatest and most unexceptionable benefit to us . others , tho not wholly new , yet bring so great improvement to those we had already of the same kind : that they do in a manner create a new manufacture . there are likewise that give help to a full trade that wanted hands before to supply it . and now if any are so unfortunate , as to bring over such as we are more than fill'd with already : i would beg , that as men we would consider the common laws of humanity , and let necessity take place of inconvenience , and as christians , to have especial regard to those that are of the houshold of faith. now that we should be over-peopled , i think there is no danger ; when no considering man but will allow that our nation wants more than a million of people , and that no country is rich but in proportion to its numbers : for multitudes create scarcity , and that industry . but be the politick consideration what it will ; never was there greater objects of christian charity and compassion , than these poor people . 1. if we look upon the privileges of mankind , we shall find them here infringed to the scandal of our being . men not only forced to renounce their thoughts , and say the contrary to what at the same time they declare themselves to believe ; but having by violence holy water cast upon them , and dragged at a horse-tail to mass , they shall be pronounced roman catholicks , and made to suffer as relapse , if they dare renounce what they never consented to . they are neither permitted to live at home , nor to go abroad . the holy and religious duty ( as the papists account it ) of confession is prostituted to oppression , and polluted with the intermixture of secular concerns . for the confessors now in france conjure their penitents , upon pain of damnation not to conceal any debt they owe to a protestant , and when revealed , immediately they attach it in the debtors hands , under the same penalty . 2. if we consider them as they are protestants of france , never had people greater privileges , better settled , nor upon juster grounds ; of which the first letter will abundantly convince any reasonable person . and yet it will appear by the second letter , that no people were ever reduced to a more miserable estate , and lived . but that which ought to move an englishman in all diversities of his passion at once is , not only that they are of our communion , or that our kings are garantees for the edict of nantes ; but that we are in a manner punished in them . for a great inducement to this inhumane usage , not only seems to be , but is really owned by them , to be from the rage they have conceived against us for preventing their bloody and hellish designs by the exemplary punishment of some popish traytors . nay , if they durst for shame speak out , i am sure they would tell us , that since they could not execute their malice upon english protestants , they are resolved to wreak their revenge upon the french , and scourge them for our sakes . the present state of the protestants in france . letter i. you are not at all mistaken ; i can now easily satisfie you in what you desire to know concerning the protestants of france . one that is a friend to us both , who is lately come thence , hath fully acquainted me with the condition they are in . i saw him the day after his arrival , and found him ordering his books , and loose papers , which were just opened . after our first salute , i ask'd him what they were . they are , said he , french books ; and those printed sheets , are the new edicts , declarations , and acts which the king of france hath lately publish'd against the protestants of his kingdom . i am very happy , said i , in lighting on you at the opening of your papers . i was extremely impatient of knowing , with some certainty , what it was drove so many of them from their native country ; and i perceive , by the care you have taken to collect all the pieces which concern them , that i could not have met any one who might better satisfie my curiosity . they come hither in troops almost every day , and the greatest part of them with no other goods , but their children . the king , according to his accustomed goodness , hath had pity on them , so far as to provide means whereby they may be able to gain their lively-hood ; and amongst other things , he hath ordered a general collection for them throughout the kingdom . we were all resolved to answer the charitable intentions of our gracious prince , and were beginning to contribute freely . but to tell you the truth , we were extremely cooled by certain rumors . it is confess'd , that their king is very earnest to make them embrace his religion : but they assure us , that he uses none but very reasonable means , and that they who come hither with such outcries , are a sort of people not gifted with much patience , who easily forsake their native country , being dissatisfied , that their merit , as they conceive , is not sufficiently rewarded . besides , they are represented to us very much suspected in the point of their obedience and loyalty . if we may believe many here , they have been very factious and rebellious ; such as in all times have struck at the higher powers both in church and state ; which , you must needs see , would not be much for our purpose in these present conjunctures . in truth , this is intolerable , ( cry'd our friend ) i cannot endure that the innocence of these poor people should be run down at this rate : i perceive father la chaise is not content to persecute them in their own country with the utmost cruelty , but trys all ways to shut up the bowels of their brethren in foreign parts : he endeavours to ruine , and to famish them every where ; in england as well as france : a hatred so cruel , and , if i may so say , murderous , agrees not so well with the gospel of the meek jesus , whose companion father la chaise styles himself . for , he came not to destroy men , but to save them . let this jesuite alone , said i , and his emissaries , i do not doubt but he hath too much to do in all the affairs of protestants . but tell me ingenuously , do they give just cause to them of france , to quit their country as they do , and are they persons whom the state and the church may trust ? you your self shall be judge , said he , and that you may be fully inform'd of the cause , i will give you a particular account of the state of these poor people . but before i speak of the evils they have suffered , it is fit you should know , what it is that they have right to hope for from their king , and from their countrymen ; you will then be more affected with the usage they find . you cannot but have heard of the edict of nantes . here it is , said he , ( taking up one of the books that lay upon the table . ) it is a law which henry the fourth confirmed to establish their condition , and to secure their lives and privileges , and that they might have liberty freely to profess their religion . it is called the edict of nantes , because it was concluded of at nantes whilst the king was there . it contains 149 articles , 93 general , and 56 particular . you may read it at your leisure , if you please : i will only observe some of them to you at present . look , i pray , ( said he ) on the sixth general , and the first particular article . liberty of conscience , without let , or molestation is there most expresly promised , not only to them who made profession of the protestant religion , at the establishment of the edict , but , ( which is principally to be observed ) to all those who should imbrace and profess it afterwards . for the article saith , that liberty of conscience is granted for all those who are , or who shall be of the said religion , whether natives or others . the seventh general article grants to all protestants the right of having divine service , preaching , and full exercise of their religion , in all their houses who have soveraign justice : that is to say , who have the privilege of appointing a judge , who hath the power of judging in capital causes , upon occasion . there are a great many noble houses in france which have this privilege . that seventh article allows all protestants who have such houses , to have divine service and preaching there , not only for themselves , their own family and tenants , but also for all persons who have a mind to go thither . the following article allows even the same exercise of the protestant religion in noble houses which have not the right of soveraign justice , but which only hold in fee-simple . it is true , it doth not allow them to admit into their assemblies above thirty persons besides their own family . the ninth article is of far greater importance : it allows the protestants to have , and to continue the exercise of their religion in all those places where it had been publickly used in the years 1596 , and 1597. the tenth article goes farther yet , and orders that that exercise be established in all places where it ought to have been by the edict of 1577 , if it had not been ; or to be re-established in all those places if it had been taken away : and that edict of 1577 , granted by henry the third , declares , that the exercise of the protestant religion should be continued in all places where it had been in the month of september that same year ; and moreover , that there should be a place in each bailywick , or other corporation of the like nature , where the exercise of that religion should be established , tho it had never been there before . these are those places which since have been called , with reference to the exercise of religion , the first places of the bailywick . it follows then from this tenth article of the edict of nantes , that besides the cities and towns in which the exercise of that religion ought to be continued , because they had it in the years 1596 , and 1597 , it ought to be over and above in all those places where it had been in the month of september in the year 1577 , and in a convenient place of each bailywick , &c. altho it had not been there in that month. the eleventh article grants also this exercise in each bailywick , in a second place where it had not been either in the month of september , 1577 , or in the years 1596 , or 1597. this is that which is called the second place of the bailywick , in distinction to that other place of the same nature , which is granted by virtue of the edict of 1577. when henry the fourth sent commissaries into the several provinces to see his edict put in execution , there was scarce found any considerable city or town where the commissaries did not acknowledge that the exercise of the protestant religion had no need to be confirm'd , or re-established , because it had been used there in some one of the three years above-mentioned : in so much , that there were whole provinces which had no need of those two places , granted out of pure favour , i mean , the two places of each bailywick ; all the cities , and all the towns of those provinces claiming that exercise by a better title . this is it which made the bishop of rodes , ( monsieur perifix ) afterwards archbishop of paris , in his history of the life of henry the fourth , to say , that that prince by his edict of nantes granted to the protestants liberty of preaching almost every where . but he granted them farther , the means and full power of breeding up , and teaching their children . read , as to that , the thirty seventh particular article . it declares , that they shall have publick schools and colleges in those cities and places where they ought to have the publick exercise of their religion . the edict having secured , as you see , the exercise of the protestant religion , secures also the condition of them who should profess it , to the end that they might , without any molestation , each one according to his quality , follow those trades , employments and offices which are the ordinary means of mens livelyhood . indeed , the thing of it self speaks this . for it is plain that they do not grant in good earnest the free exercise of a religion , who debar the persons that profess it the use of means necessary for their subsistence . nevertheless for their greater security , henry the fourth hath declared to all europe by his edict , that he would not that there should be any difference , as to that point , between his protestant and his papist subjects . the thirty seventh general article , as to that is express . this it is : we declare all them who do or shall make profession of the pretended reformed religion , capable of holding and exercising all conditions , offices , honours , and publick charges whatsoever , royalties , seigneuries , or any charge in the cities of our kingdom , countries , territories , or seigneuries under our authority . the fifty fourth article declares , that they shall be admitted officers in the courts of parliaments , great council , chamber of accounts , court of aids , and the offices of the general treasurers of france ; and amongst the other officers of the revenues of the crown . the seventy fourth article puts them in the same state with their fellow subjects , as to all publick exactions , willing that they should be charged no higher than others . those of the said religion pretendedly reformed ( saith the article ) may not hereafter be overcharged or oppressed with any imposition ordinary or extraordinary , more than the catholicks : and to the end that justice might be done and administred impartially , as the edict explains it self , the 30th . 31st to the 57th articles set up chambers of the edict in the parliaments of paris and roan , where the protestant counsellors ought to assist as judges : and chambers miparties in the parliaments of guienne , languedoc and dauphine , consisting each of two presidents , the one protestant , the other papist , and of twelve counsellors , an equal number of each religion , to judge without appeal , ( exclusive to all other courts ) all differences of any importance which the protestants might have with their fellow subjects as well in criminal , as in civil matters . in short , this great edict forgets nothing which might make the protestants of france to live in peace , and honor : it hath not fail'd even to explain it self , as to the vexations which might be created them , by taking away or seducing their children . for , read the eighteenth general article . it forbids all papists of what quality or condition soever they may be , to take them away by force , or by perswasion against the will of their parents : as if it had foreseen that this would be one of the ways which their persecutors would use , to vex and ruine them . but the 38th . article goes farther yet : that wills , that even after their death , fathers shall be masters of the education of their children , and consequently of their religion ; so long as their children shall continue under guardians , which is by the laws of france till the 25th year of their age : it shall be lawful for fathers , who profess the said religion , to provide for them such persons for their education , as they think fit , and to substitute one or more , by will , codicil , or other declaration made before publick notaries , or written and sign'd with their own hand . you perceive then plainly , continued our friend , that by this edict king henry the fourth made the condition of the protestants equal almost in all things to that of his other subjects . they had reason then to hope that they should be allowed to exercise their religion , to breed up and instruct their children in it , without any disturbance ; and that they should have as free admission to all arts , trades , offices and employments as any of their fellow subjects . this is very clear , said i , and i am much obliged to you for explaining to me what this famous edict of nantes is , which i had heard so much discourse of . but they who have no affection for the protestants tell us , that it is a law which was extorted by violence ; and consequently , is not to be kept . i will not stand now ( said our friend ) to examine whether that consequence be good ; you cannot but perceive that it is dangerous . but i dare assure you that the principle from whence it is drawn ; namely , that the edict was extorted by violence is very false . i would not have you take my word for it . but i will produce an unexceptionable witness . it is the archbishop of paris ; he who writ the life of henry the fourth . that one witness is worth a thousand ; for he was a declared enemy of the protestants . according to him : the general peace was made , the ligue extinguish'd ; and all persons in france had laid down their arms , when this edict was granted in favour of them . it is ridiculous now , to say , that it was extorted by violence , there being then no party in all the kingdom in a condition to make the least attempt with impunity . moreover , that prelate could not forbear owning expresly what it was mov'd the king to grant them that edict : it was the sense of the great obligations he had to them . see the book it self ; read the passage . the great obligations which he had to them would not permit him to drive them into despair ; and therefore to preserve them a just ballance , he granted them an edict larger than any before . they called it the edict of nantes , &c. indeed the obligations he had to them were not small . they had testified an inviolable loyalty to him in all his troubles . they had spent freely their lives and fortunes to defend his rights , and his life against the princes of lorrain , who made so many attempts to keep him from the throne of his ancestors , and to usurp his place . had it not been for their valour , and their loyalty , the crown had gone into the hands of strangers ; and ( since we must speak out ) had it not been for them , the blood of the bourbons would not this day have been possessed of the throne . the edict of nantes then , was the effect and the recompence of the great obligations which king henry the fourth had to his loyal protestants , and not as is slanderously reported , the fruit of any violence , gained by force , and granted against the hair . but farther , the law of nature and common policy might challenge such an edict for them as well as gratitude . it is true , that soveraign magistrates are appointed by god to preserve the publick peace , and by consequence , to cut off , or prevent , as much as in them lies , whatever may disturb it : it is true also that new establishments in matters of religion may cause great troubles in a state , and that there are religions which have maxims so pernicious , that when magistrates are of a different opinion , or but so much as tolerate such a one , their lives and their kingdoms are never in safety . but henry the fourth found the protestant religion wholly establish'd in the kingdom when he came to the crown : besides , he who had so long profess'd it , knew perfectly well that it had none of those dreadful maxims , which makes princes and states jealous ; that on the contrary , in it , loyalty and obedience of subjects to soveraigns of what religion , and what humor soever , was to them an article of faith , and an obligation of conscience . he knew that protestants , by their religion were peaceable men , who sought but to serve god according to his word , and were always ready to spend the last drop of their blood for the service and the honor of their king. but he knew also that the zeal of the romish clergy always animated the popish common people against them , and that they would be sure to fall upon them , unless he took them into his protection . the law of nature then did not permit him to abandon to the rage of the multitude so many innocent persons ; and common policy warned him to preserve so many faithful subjects for the state , so capable of supporting it on occasion , as he had so freshly experienc'd . it being certain , that had it not been for them , the pope and the ligue had ruin'd the whole kingdom ; but it was not possible , either to defend them from the fury of the people , or to preserve them for the service of the state , if he had granted in favour of them any thing less than the edict of nantes : so that this edict in truth was to be ascribed to common equity and prudence no less than gratitude . but , said i to my friend , do you believe that the grandson of henry the fourth is bound to make good what his grandfather did ? i do not doubt it at all ( answered he ) otherwise there would be nothing secure or certain in civil society ; and wo be to all governments if there be no foundation of publick trust . 1. for if ever law deserv'd to be regarded by the successors of a prince , it is this . it was establish'd by a hero , who had recovered the crown for his posterity , by his sword : and this establishment was not made but after mature and long deliberations , in the calm of a profound peace , obtained and cemented by many and signal victories . that hero hath declar'd expresly in the preface of the edict , that he establish'd it in the nature of an irrevocable and perpetual law ; willing , that it should be firm and inviolable ; as he also saith himself in the 90th . article . accordingly he made all the formalities to be observed in its establishment , which are necessary for the passing of a fundamental law in a state. for he made the observation of it under the quality of an irrevocable law , to be sworn to by all the governors and lieutenant-generals of his provinces , by the bailiffs , mayors , and other ordinary judges , and principal inhabitants of the cities , of each religion , by the majors , sheriffs , consuls and jurates , by the parliaments , chambers of accounts , court of aids , with order to have it publish'd and registred in all the said courts . this is expresly set down in the 92d . and 93d . articles . was there ever any thing more authentick ? 2. the same reasons which caused the establishment , remain still , and plead for its continuance . 1. the family of bourbon preserved in the throne . 2. the law of nature and common policy . 3. the two successors of henry the fourth look'd not upon themselves as unconcern'd in this edict . their word , and their royal authority are engaged for its observation no less than the word and royal authority of its illustrious author . lewis the thirteenth confirm'd it as soon as he came to the crown by his declaration of the 22d . of may , 1610 , ordering , that the edict of nantes should be observed in every point and article . these are the very words . read them ( said he ) shewing me a book in folio , called , the great conference of the royal ordinances and edicts . i read there in the first book , title 6 , of the second part of the volume , not only the article he mention'd , but also the citation of nine several declarations publish'd at several times by the same king , on the same subject . lewis the fourteenth , who now reigns , ( says our friend ) hath likewise assured all europe by his authentick edicts and declarations , that he would maintain the edict of nantes according to the desire of his grandfather , who had made it an irrevocable law. he himself acknowledges and confirms it himself anew ; by his edict of june , 1680 , where he forbids papists to change their religion . there it is ; pray take the pains to read it . lewis by the grace of god , king of france and navarre , to all persons to whom these presents come , greeting . the late henry the fourth , our grandfather , of glorious memory , granted by his edict given at nantes in the month of april , 1598 , to all his subjects of the religion pretended reformed , who then lived in his kingdom , or who afterwards should come and settle in it , liberty of professing their religion , and at the same time provided whatsoever he judged necessary for affording those of the said religion pretended reformed means of living in our kingdom , in the exercise of their religion , without being molested in it by our catholick subjects : which the late king , our most honored lord and father , and we since have authorised and confirmed on other occasions , by divers declarations and acts. but this prince is not content to tell what he hath formerly done , in confirmation of the edict of nantes ; read some lines a little lower , and you will see that he repeats again his former ingagements . we declare , that confirming as much as is , or may be needful , the edict of nantes , and other declarations and acts given in pursuit of it , &c. that is to say : that by this new edict he signs once more the edict of nantes , and for a more authentick confirmation of that important law , he ratifies together with it , and seals with his royal seal all the declarations which had already confirmed it . if all this is not sufficient to render his word sacred and inviolable , there is nothing in the world can do it : all things are lawful , and it is to no purpose to talk of any obligation , or of any bond in humane society . they cannot make void , or break the clauses of an edict so well deserv'd by the protestants , so just and so wise in it self , so solemnly establish'd , so religiously sworn to , and so often , and so authentically confirm'd by three kings , without shaking all the foundations of publick security , without violating , in that act , the law of nations , and filling the world with fatal principles , which by ruining all mutual faith among men , render divisions in states incurable ; and consequently immortal . dear sir , said i , i am much pleased with what you have inform'd me . o how i shall dash them out of countenance , who hereafter shall compare the condition of our papists in england with that of the protestants in france . there is no sort of good usage but what is due to these in their own country ; of which they have deserved so well by preserving that family which now reigns there . what have they not a right to hope for under the protection of an edict so authentick ? but our papists in england have they ever deserved a like protection ? hath there ever been pass'd any act of parliament in favour of them , like to this edict ? on the contrary , have not there been pass'd 1000 against them ? and not one , but upon the provocation of some sedition , or open rebellion . you need but review the fundamental laws of the land now in force against the pope , against the jesuits , seminary priests , and in general against all the papists . there is decreed justly against them all the contrary that by the edict of nantes is promised to the protestants . you are much in the right ( said our friend ) when you use the word justly on this occasion : princes and protestant magistrates cannot look upon , nor by consequence , treat papists otherwise than as declared and mortal enemies of their persons , and of their states . they may disguise themselves as they please : but in truth , every papist is a man who takes the pope to be the soveraign head of the universal church , and believes that on that very account , there is no prince , nor king , nor emperor who is not subject to his censures , even to excommunication . now who knows not that it is a general maxim of that religion , that they ought to treat all excommunicated persons , as common pests ? upon this all subjects are dispensed with from their oaths of allegiance to their princes , kingdoms are laid under interdicts ; and they are no way obliged to keep faith with hereticks . this is the original and damnable cause of the many conspiracies that have been made against the sacred lives of our kings : and if you will search our histories , you will find none of the forementioned acts ever passed but upon some previous provocation given by the papists insolence , or rebellions : of the massacres in france and ireland , wherein they of rome have so triumph'd , and of the general consternation into which so lately our nation was cast . they would fain perswade us , that these pernicious maxims are peculiar to the jesuits and some monks : but a little treatise , called , the difference between the church and court of rome , proves undeniably , that it is the judgment of all true papists . i could produce other invincible authority , if this point were here to be proved . there cannot then be too great caution against such persons : whatever they pretend , they do not design simply the exercise of that belief which their conscience dictates to them , they grasp at the power , and aspire at dominion : they design , whatever it cost them , to have their church reign once more here in england . there is nothing they dare not attempt , nothing they are not ready to act , that they may compass it . they are implacable enemies who wait but for an opportunity to cut our throats : and we must needs be very senseless and stupid , if after so many proofs as they have given us of their desperate malice , we should repeal those laws which tie up their hands . you are much in the right , i replyed , but let us leave them for the present , and return to our protestants of france . you have shewed me their rights , now let me understand their grievances . i am willing to do it , said he ; but it is a little late : and if you please , being somewhat weary with my journey , we will defer it till to morrow . i will expect you here in my chamber at the same hour you came to day . i told him with all my heart . and as our conversation ended there , i think it not amiss to end my letter also , intending in another to let you know the present condition of those poor people . i am your , &c. letter ii. i did not fail to wait on my friend at the appointed hour . sit down ( said he ) as soon as he saw me in the chamber , and let us lose no time in needless ceremony : i was just putting my papers in order , by which i would desire you to judge of the protestants complaints , and the reasons that have made them leave their country : but since you are here , take them as they come to hand . the first is a verbal process of the extraordinary assembly of the archbishops and bishops held in the province of the arch-bishop of paris , in the months of march and may , this 1681. it is a piece which justifies a truth , that the world will hardly believe : namely , that whereas the protestants by virtue of the edict had the exercise of their religion almost every where , they have it now scarce any where . see the proof in the tenth page of that verbal process , where one of the agents , general of the clergy of france , alledgeth as so many publick testimonies of the piety of their king , an almost infinite number of churches demolish'd , and the exercise of the religion pretended reformed suppress'd . i leave you to imagine what a consternation such a terrible blow must have put those poor people into ; not to mention their grief to see those holy places beaten down , whose very stones they took pleasure in ; instead of having the heavenly mannah shower down at the doors of their tabernacles , at this present they are forc'd to go 30 or 40 miles through the worst of ways , in the winter , to hear the word of god , and to have their children baptized . but let us go on to a second piece . here is a declaration hath lain heavy upon them , in reference to an infinite number of living temples , who are far otherwise to be lamented for , by reason of the rigor they are us'd with , than the temples of stone that are demolish'd . it is of the thirteenth of march , 1679. pray read it . it forbids all popish clergy-men , whatever desire they have , to turn protestants ; and even all those protestants , who have forsaken their religion out of lightness , or infirmity ; to return to it again , upon better knowledge of the truth , press'd to it by their consciences , and desiring to give glory to god. this dreadful edict , will not suffer , that any of them shall satisfie their consciences , in so important an affair , under any less penalty , than that of the amende honorable , perpetual banishment , and confiscation of their goods . i beseech you ( said i ) what doth the declaration intend , by making amende honorable ? you have reason to ask , replyed he , it is that you ought not to be ignorant of . know then , that for them to make amende honorable is to go into some publick place , in their shirt , a torch in their hand , a rope about their neck , followed by the hangman , in this equipage ( which is that of the most infamous criminals ) to ask pardon of god , the king , and justice for what they have done : that is to say , on this occasion , for having dar'd to repent of sinning against god , for having forsaken a religion which they believ'd heretical and idolatrous , and consequently , the infallible way to eternal damnation ; and for being willing thence forward to profess the protestant religion , in which only they are perswaded they can be saved . this is , dear friend , what they inflict upon all popish ecclesiasticks to whom god vouchsafes grace to discern the true religion , and upon all protestants , who having been such wretches as to forsake it , are afterwards so happy as to be convinc'd of their sin ; and to repent . they call the first apostates , and the other relaps . but names do not change the nature of things : the misery is , that all this is executed with the utmost rigor . the prisons of poictiers , and those of other places are at this present filled with this sort of pretended relapsed persons ; and it is not permitted to any one to relieve them . what possibility is there then for such as are in like circumstances , and whose number every day increases , to continue in france ? but the mischief is much increas'd since this declaration . what was particular to ecclesiasticks and relapse protestants , is now become universal to all roman catholicks . i shewed you the piece yesterday . it is that very edict of june , 1680 , wherein they pretend to confirm the edict of nantes . a blessed confirmation ! the edict of nantes , as i have shewed you , allows the liberty of conscience to all them who were then protestants , and to all such as would be afterwards , inhabitants , or others . but what doth this new edict declare ! our will and pleasure is , that our subjects , of what quality , condition , age or sex soever , now making profession of the catholick apostolick roman religion , may never forsake it , to go ever to the pretended reformed religion , for what cause , reason , pretence or consideration soever . we will that they who shall act contrary to this our pleasure , shall be condemned to make amende honorable , to perpetual banishment out of our kingdom , and all their goods to be confiscated . we forbid all ministers of the said pretended reformed religion , hereafter to receive any catholick to make profession of the pretended reformed religion , and we forbid them and the elders of their consistories to suffer in their churches or assemblies any such , under penalty to the ministers of being deprived for ever of exercising any function of their ministry in our kingdom , and of suppression for ever of the exercise of the said religion in that place where any one catholick shall be received to make profession of the said pretended reformed religion . lord ! what a horrible proceeding is this ! ( cryed i , as soon as my friend had read it ) do they call this confirming of edicts in france ? what a violence is this to the consciences of ministers and elders , to command them to shut the doors of the church of jesus christ to all their neighbours who come thither for admission : ( and to have this done ) by them who are called by god to open the door to all the world ? is not this to force them to violate the most essential and sacred duty of christian charity ? in truth , if there were nothing else but this ; i do not see how they can stay there much longer with a safe conscience . they must swallow worse potions than these ( said my friend ) you shall see presently quite other preparations . what ( replyed i ) have they the heart to use thus cruelly those poor churches within whose walls any roman catholick changes his religion ? don't doubt it ( said he ) they make no conscience at all to exceed their commission , whensoever they are enjoyn'd to execute any penalty . i will give you an example , which will amaze you there is a great town in poitou called la motthe , where the protestants have a church consisting of between three and four thousand communicants : a young maid of about seventeen years old , who from a protestant had turned papist , had stole her self into the congregation upon a communion-day . now you must observe , that the protestant churches are full on those days . for they would believe themselves very much to blame , if they lost any opportunity of partaking at the lord's supper . nevertheless , without considering how easie it was for that young maid not to be discovered by the consistory in such a crowd , and tho those poor people were not at all within the letter of that rigorous edict , they have made them undergo all the penalty . the exercise of their religion is wholly suppress'd there , and their minister not allowed to preach in france . this is very cruel ( said i to our friend ) and tho it were true that those ministers and those elders were guilty upon such an account , why should the whole flock be punished ? those poor sheep what have they done ? that is very usual for those gentlemen ( answered he : ) i have a hundred stories to instance in . i cannot forbear telling you one , which many of their own devotees were scandalized at . s. hippolyte is a place in where all the inhabitants are protestants , except the curate , and it may be , two or three poor wretches , who are not natives of the place neither . a fancy took the curate to put a trick upon the protestants ; for this he chose a sunday ; and the very moment that they came out of the church , he came and presented himself before them with his sacrament , as they were almost all come out . you must know that the church is on the farther side of a bridge , which must be pass'd over , going and coming . several of them were upon the bridge , others had pass'd it , and part were yet on the other side ; when the curate appear'd , all of them , who could possibly , got away and hid themselves : but neither the place , nor the great haste of the curate would permit all of them to do so . he went up directly to one of the company , whom he had born an ill will to for some time : he bids him kneel : and the other answering that his conscience would not suffer him to do it ; he gave him a cuff on the ear. he that was struck grumbled ; and so did two or three who were about him . the curate went on his way , threatning hard . next day there were informations made on both sides : the curate in his , not complaining of any person but him he had struck , and two or three others who had grumbled at it . the friends of the curate perceiving that he had done the wrong , propos'd an accommodation . it was by misfortune consented to . prosecution ceased on each side , and it was believed that there was an end of that business : there was not a word spoken of it in above a year . but the intendant of languedoc revived it last winter , when they thought of nothing less ; and of a matter particular to two or three , made it a general concern of the whole congregation . he cites them before the presidial of nismes , to whom he joyn'd himself . he condemns them to demolish their church in a months time . those poor people go and cast themselves at the feet of the court ; but to no purpose . the king's council hears and confirms this strange order of the intendant , and the church is rac'd to the ground . the council which gave this sentence was the first in which the dauphine was present . the report of such an order being spred among the courtiers , and all being amaz'd that heard it , a certain person took the liberty to tell the dauphin , that for the first time he had been at the council , he had assisted to a great injustice . what say you to that ? said a duke and peer , to the dauphin , who had made no reply to the former . i say , answered the dauphin , that he may be much in the right . i told our friend , i had enough of this . you must not be weary , said he , this is but the beginning of sorrows . let 's go on to the rest . here is , said he , a little book which comes just now to my hand , in it are stitch'd up together , three acts concerning schools . the first is of the ninth of november , 1670. it forbids all protestant schoolmasters to teach any thing in their schools , but to read and write , and arithmetick . the second , which is of the 4th . of december , 1671 , ordains , that the protestants shall have but one only school in any place where they have the publick exercise of their religion ; and but one master in that school . the third is of the ninth of july , this present 1681. look upon them ( said he ) and give me your opinion . it seems ( said i ) that the first contains nothing which the protestants may complain of , at least , if that which i read there be true , namely , that by the edict of nantes it is expresly ordain'd , that in the schools of those of the pretended reformed religion , there shall not any thing be taught , but to read , write , and cast account . for according to this , the edict of 1670 is entirely conformable to that other edict which is the law. you are in the right , said i , but they who fram'd the act , have deceived you , and have made no scruple to ground it upon a matter of fact entirely false . for the article which speaks of schools , doth not mention the least word of that restriction , which the act assures us to be there expressed , namely , of teaching only to read , write , and cast account . see the article at length : it is the 37th particular . those of the said religion may not keep publick schools , unless in cities and places where the publick exercise of their religion is allowed , and the provisions which have heretofore been granted them for the erection or maintenance of colleges , shall be authenticated where occasion shall require , and have their full and entire effect . where is that express order ? it is expresly ordered to teach only to read , write , and cast account ; upon which the act is grounded . is it possible ( said i ) that they should have no sense of the horrid shame which must arise upon conviction of forgery in a matter of fact of this nature ? they never stick at so small a matter as that ( said he ) in the design they have of rooting out the protestants . those who are in france dare not open their mouths to discover such kind of falsities ; and strangers , whom they carry fair with , will not so far concern themselves as ever to suspect there should be falshood in a matter of fact so easie to be made out ; and which they make to be so positively affirm'd by so great a king. so that they do not fear at all the shame you speak of . after all , they are but pious frauds , at which , they of the popes communion never blush . and what say you ( continued he ) to that other act which reduces all schools to one , in each city and town where the protestants have the publick exercise of their religion , and that which requires that there should be only one master in that school . i replyed that it was an excellent way to restore ignorance , the mother of the roman faith and devotion . in truth , says he , the care of one master cannot go far . besides there is a protestant church which alone hath two thousand children of age to be taught . those poor people have done all they could to obtain of the council , that at least there might be two schools in each place , one for boys , and the other for girls . but it was to little purpose that they pleaded good manners for it , which such a mixture of both sexes visibly was offensive to . they were deaf to all their prayers and to all their remonstrances . but this is not all yet . in the execution of this rigorous act , they have taken away from them that little which was left them . for the judges of the places will not suffer that any schoolmaster teach , unless they have first of all approved of him , and receiv'd him in all their forms . as therefore their approbation is a matter full of invincible difficulties ; above all , when they are to give it to a man of merit , and who may do good , it is come to pass by means of these two acts , that all the little schools of the protestants are shut up . from the little schools they have proceeded to colleges . you see by the act of the last of july , which suppresses for ever that of sedan . they have taken away also the college of châtillon sur loin . so that , hereafter the protestants in france are to lie under worse than egyptian darkness . i leave you now to judge whether they are to blame to seek for light in some goshen . in truth , said i , this is very hard . but if they who inspire into the king such strange acts , have no respect for henry the great and his edicts , at least they ought to be more tender of the glory of their own illustrious prince , and not to expose him , as they do , to be ranked with that emperor against whom the holy fathers have cryed so loudly . is it possible they can be ignorant that this method of extinguishing the protestant religion is exactly the same that julian took to extinguish the christian religion ? i do not think ( said our friend ) that they can be ignorant of a truth so well known ; especially since one of their eminent writers hath publish'd the history of the life of s. basil the great , and of s. gregory nazianzen . there they might have read in more than one place , that it was likewise one of the secrets of that emperor , to ruine the christians by keeping them from all improvement in learning , and to prohibit their colleges and schools ; and which the father 's judg'd to be most subtle policy . but their zeal transports them above the most odious comparisons . they stick not to give occasion for them every moment . i will shew you an example which will astonish you , i have here light upon the paper . they are now come to take the measures of that barbarous and inhumane king who us'd midwives of his own religion to destroy the race of the people of god in egypt . for by that declaration of the 28th of february , 1680 , it is ordered , that the wives of protestants shall not be brought to bed but by midwives or chyrurgeons who are papists . this they make to be observ'd with the utmost rigor , so far that they put a poor woman in prison for being present at the labour of her sister , whose delivery was so quick and fortunate , that there was neither time nor need to call a midwife . that you may in few words understand of what consequence this is to our poor brethren , i need but acquaint you , that the king of france in his edict of the month of june , 1680 , where he forbids papists to change their religion , acknowledges himself , what experience doth but too plainly justifie , namely , that the roman catholicks have always had an aversion , not only against the protestant religion , but against all those that profess it , and an aversion which hath been improv'd by the publication of edicts , declarations and acts. that is to say , that whatever pretence the roman catholicks make to the contrary , they have always been , and still are enemies of the protestants ; and that the protestants ought to look to be treated by the catholicks as enemies . after this what can they judge of the design , and consequences of a declaration , which puts the lives of their wives and children into those very hands which the king , who makes the declaration , acknowledges to be hands of enemies ? but farther , the declaration it self discovers , that one of its intentions was , to make the children of protestants to be baptized by midwives , or by popish chyrurgions : and what mischief do they not open a way for by that ? the protestants will hold that baptism void , which hath been administred by such hands , they will not fail to make it be administred anew , by their pastors . this shall pass for a capital crime in the pastors and fathers , and they shall be punished as sacrilegious persons who trample on the religion in authority , the religion of the king : for the most odious representations are still made use of . nay , said i , by this they will likewise claim a right , from the baptism's being administred by papists , to make themselves masters of the education of their children . you are in the right ( said he ) and that article ought not to be forgotten . it is just , will they say , that they should be brought up in the church which hath consecrated them to god , by baptism , at least , that they should be bred up there , till they are of age to chuse for themselves : and when they are of age , they will say then , that it is just they should , as well as others , be liable to the same edict which forbids catholicks to change their religion . is not this enough already to make one forsake such a kingdom ? a christian for less than this would surely flie to the utmost parts of the world. but to proceed . here is that terrible decree which fills up the measure , as to what concerns the poor children . it comes to my hand very seasonably . it is the declaration of the 17th . of june last . this ordains that all the children of protestants shall be admitted to abjure the religion of their fathers , and become papists as soon as they shall be seven years old : it declares , that after such an abjuration , it shall be at the choice of the children , either to return home to their fathers , and there to be maintain'd , or to oblige their fathers and mothers to pay for their board , and maintenance , where ever they please to live . it adds extreme penalties to be laid on them , who breed up their children in foreign parts , before they are sixteen years old . but i pray read over the whole edict . upon that i took the declaration from our friends hand , read it , and returning it to him again , could not forbear declaring , that i did not now wonder any more that the protestants of france were in so great a consternation . they are much in the right ( said i ) discretion and conscience oblige them to depart out of a country , in which there is no security for the salvation of their dear children . they are of too great a value to be so hazarded . what is more easie , for them who have all the power , than to induce such young children to change their religion ? there is no need for this , to shew them all the kingdoms of the world and their glory . a baby , a picture , a little cake will do the business ; or if there want somewhat more , a rod will not fail to complete this worthy conversion . in the mean while , what a condition are their wretched fathers in , besides the most inexpressible grief of seeing what is most dear to them in the world seduc'd out of the service and house of god ; they shall likewise have this addition of anguish of having their own children for their persecutors . for , knowing , as i do , the spirit of that religion , i doubt not but they will all prove rebellious and unnatural , and renounce all that love and natural respect which is due to them , whom they owe their lives to . they 'll give law to their parents , they will oblige them to make them great allowances , which they will dispose of as they list ; and if their fathers pay them not precisely at the time appointed , i am sure , no rigors shall be forgotten in the prosecution . no certainly , said our friend , and i could give you an hundred instances , if there were need . even before this merciless declaration was made , the goods of parents were seis'd upon , exposed to sale , to pay for the maintenance of their children , who had been inveigled from them , and been made papists . if they dealt with them so then before the declaration , what will they not do when they see themselves supported and armed with royal authority ? but there is no need i should insist farther on the dreadful consequences of this declaration . it hath been lately printed in our language , and notes made upon it , wherein nothing hath been forgotten . the book is written impartially : tho i can scarce believe what is express'd in the title page , that it was written in french ; however , some gallicisms are put in to make you believe it : but the protestants of that nation are not us'd to such bold expressions upon such kind of subjects : and i doubt much whether they could do it . if they have reason to fear for the birth , and for the tender years of their children , they have no less for themselves . here is a proof of it . it is the declaration of the 19th . of november , 1680 : by which it is ordained , that whenever they are sick , they shall suffer themselves to be visited by the papist magistrates . thus , having made their lives burdensome to them , they take a thousand ways to torment them in their beds , as soon as any disease hath seised them . it is not henceforth permitted to them either to be sick , or die in peace . under colour of this declaration they are persecuted , and all means are tryed to shake their faith , under the pretence of being ask'd what religion they will die in . first a judge presents himself with the awe of his presence , accompanied by one of the king's sollicitors and two papist witnesses . they begin their work by driving all protestants , who are with the sick man , out of his chamber : father , mother , wife , husband , children , none are excepted . after that , they do with the sick person as they list : they draw up a verbal process , or such as they like . lies with them are but pious frauds . whatsoever the sick man answers , he hath still abjur'd , if these gentlemen please to make a conversion of it ; and there is no possibility of disproving it . the verbal process is drawn up in good form. if the sick man recovers , and refuses to go to mass , immediately he is subject to all the penalties of a relapse . if he dies and chances to be the father of a family , they take away all his children , to breed them up in the popish religion ; and his estate , to preserve it , as they pretend , for the children of a catholick father . can any one who hath any care of his own salvation , or any affection for his children , live expos'd to such dreadful inconveniences , if god offers any means to avoid them ? i am afraid i tire you with the recital of so many calamities . fear not that , answered i , i am resolv'd to know all . you do not consider what you say , replyed he , i should need whole weeks to tell you all . imagine all the suprises , all the indirect practices , all the base tricks of insinuation , and little quirks of law are put in ure : together with all manner of violence , to accomplish the work. neither do those enemies of the protestants always neglect the oracles of the scripture . it says , i will smite the shepherd , and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered . these gentlemen then , that they may the more easily scatter the sheep , smite , every where , the shepherd , and constrain them to fly . they imprison one , for having by the word of god confirm'd some of his flock , whom the popish doctors would pervert : another , for being converted to the protestant religion in his youth , long before any law was made against pretended apostates . they hire forlorn wretches to go to the sermons of the protestant ministers , and to depose before a magistrate , that the ministers said , that the church of rome was idolatrous , or that the faithful are persecuted , that they spake ill of the virgin mary , or of the king. upon this , without being heard , ( and tho it be offered to be made out by the deposition of an infinity almost of persons of credit , that the testimonies of these two or three wretches are absolutely false ) orders are issued out for the seising the bodies of the ministers . they are clap'd in jayl as soon as taken : they are condemn'd to pay excessive fines : they force them to make the amende honorable , they banish them the kingdom . the intendant of rochefort suppress'd one there , upon the most extravagant deposition that was ever taken . the deponent having been at the sermon of that minister , said , that there was nothing to be found fault with in his words , but that he perceiv'd his thoughts were not innocent . if there are any amongst them so happy as to confound so the false witnesses , that the judges are asham'd to use all those rigors ; none of the charges of imprisonment , or of the suit are ever recovered against any one . a minister who may have sixty or seventy pounds a year , and seven or eight in family to maintain , must be condemn'd with all his innocence to pay all these great costs . i could , upon this head , tell you a hundred stories , but that it would be too tedious . i have met both at paris and in other provinces many of these persecuted ministers , who acquainted me with their adventures , germany , holland and switzerland are full of them , and i am told , there are some of them here in england . their absence from their flocks is but too good a proof how hot the persecution is against them . and so let 's go on . you may remember that the edict of nantes judg'd it necessary for the preservation of the estates , and credit of the protestants , and for the safety of their lives , to erect tribunals where supreme justice might be administred by judges of the one , and of the other religion . but all these tribunals are suppress'd : namely , the chambers of the edict of paris , and of rouen . it is some years since the chambres miparties were suppress'd by the delaration of july , 1679 : so that here is their fortunes , their credit , their lives , all at the mercy of their sworn enemies . for you have not forgot that the king of france acknowledges , in one of his declarations , that the papists have always hated the persons of the protestants . judge then if it be safe for them to stay longer in such a kingdom . but there is no method proper to ruine them , which is not made use of , that if one fails , another may be sure to take . synods and conferences are absolutely necessary , for the admission of their ministers , for the correction of scandals , for the preservation of peace in their congregations , for the subsistence of their colleges , and for the support and exercise of their discipline . at first they kept them with all sort of liberty . under lewis the thirteenth , they thought fit to forbid them to hold any synod , unless some protestant commissary , who was to be named by the court , were present . this was observed till the year 1679 , when a declaration was publish'd , requiring that there should be a papist commissary in their synods . that is to say , sir , said i , interrupting our friend , they will pry into their hearts , and perfectly know where their strength or their weakness lies . if there were nothing but that in it , replyed our friend , that declaration would not allarm them so much as it doth . for there is nothing done in their assemblies , which they are not willing all the world should know . they defie their most mortal enemies to prove the contrary . can there be a more undeniable proof of this , than the practice of the protestant commissary , who sends to the court a copy well attested of all the results of the deliberations which are made , while the synod or conference is held ? what do they fear then , replyed i , from the presence of a papist commissary ? because they know that the end of the court cannot be to discover their secrets , since they have none ; therefore it is that they justly fear , that this papist commissary hath been set over them , to create them trouble in the most innocent affairs , to hinder those deliberations which are most necessary for the due preservation of their flocks , to silence those ministers among them whom he shall perceive to be of greatest ability , and of credit , to dishearten one by threatnings , to corrupt another by promises , to sow dissention and division among them , and to employ all means possibly to ruine them . these are the just fears which have hindred them till this present , from assembling any synods with this so destructive a condition , hoping continually that , it may be , god would touch the heart of their king. but perceiving no favourable change , and not being able to subsist without holding their synods , i learn'd , as i came out of france , that these poor people are resolv'd to run these hazards , and that their synods are upon assembling in several places . may god vouchsafe to preside in the midst of them by his grace , and remove far from them all the evils they have cause to fear . it may be , by their good examples , and their religious behaviour they may convert them , who are set over them for a snare , as it happened to their fathers in the last age also . then was contrived the placing of papist commissaries , to spie out their liberty . but these commissaries were so taken with the modesty , the piety , the charity , the decency of order , and the devout prayers of the first reformers , that they gave glory to god , and embrac'd the religion which they had persecuted . the jesuites nevertheless have thought all these evils of which i have spoken , too slack and gentle . that they may not be at any more trouble , they will do the business once for all . they have contrived to starve all the protestants : and to effect this , they have made all the means of gaining a livelyhood , to be taken from them , by the acts of the council of state , of the sixth of november , 1679 , and the 28th . of june , 1681. 1. they have turn'd out of all jurisdictions and seignuries ( which are almost infinite in france ) all protestants who had been admitted officers in those jurisdictions . all stewards , bailiffs , sollicitors , officers of the exchequer , registers , notaries , clerks , serjeants and ushers that were protestants , of all sorts , throughout the whole kingdom , are cashiered by virtue of these acts ; they have reduc'd to beggary thousands of families , which had no other subsistence , but by these employments . 2. look upon those two pieces , which they procured also , for the same intent . the title of the one is , the order of the council royal of the finances ( or treasury ) of the 11th . of june , 1680. the other is , an order of the council of state of the 17th . of august of the same year . by the means of these two pieces , the jesuites have made the protestants to be kept out of all the affairs of the finances , customs , which they call traites forains , of aids , gabelles , taxes of all sorts of commissions , to which the edict of nantes ordered , that they should be admitted indifferently with the papists . this second hath taken away the bread of a vast number of families more . 3. they every day make the protestant captains and officers ( who have serv'd so worthily by land and sea ) to be turn'd out of their commands . those brave men after they have spent their estates to advance their masters honor , and ventured their lives a thousand times for his glory ; see themselves shamefully , as so many cowards , cashiered , without any exception for them who having signaliz'd and distinguish'd themselves by particular actions , had deserv'd extraordinary pensions . because they will not be less faithful to god , than they have been to their king : they are resolved disgrace and beggary shall be the reward of their service . by this , they take away from all the protestant nobility the means of maintaining themselves in that rank in which god by their birth hath placed them . 4. as to the merchants , look what the jesuits have thought upon to ruine them . they have obtain'd an order of council of state , of the 19th . of november , 1680 , which grants to all protestants who change their religion , the term and forbearance of three years for the payment of the principal of their debts , with prohibition to all their creditors to bring any action against them , during that time , upon pain of non-suit , noli prosequi , and all charges , damages , costs and interests . i perceive very well , ( said i to our friend ) that this puts those who revolt in a way to secure and withdraw their goods ; and to enjoy in peace the fruits of their turning bankrupts . but i do not see how this tends to the ruine of those merchants in general , who persevere in the protestant religion . that is ( said he , smiling ) because you have not so subtle a wit , nor are so quick-sighted as the jesuits . you know very well that merchants subsist by their credit : if their credit be low , they must fall ; there is no more trading for them , their business is done . now do you not perceive , that the credit of all protestant merchants is ruined by this order , which puts them in a way of turning bankrupts as they please , with all indemnity ; and of inriching themselves with those goods they have been trusted with ? who do you think after this will be so silly as to take their word ? who can tell , with any certainty , whether they with whom they deal , are persons who will continue in the protestant religion ? is there any thing more common than such changes in religion now adays ? it 's enough ( said i ) i was mistaken , i perceive now very well that the ruine of the protestant merchants is unavoidable . go on to the other professions . for i see they are resolved that no protestant shall get bread among them . you are in the right ( said he ) you have seen it in many of them , i 'll shew it you now in the rest . 5. all papists who drive any trade , or exercise any art , are forbid to take any protestant apprentice . i have seen the order , but have it not now by me . by this you see that all young men of the protestant religion ( who have not means of their own ) are reduced to this extremity , either of starving in france , or turning papists , or forsaking that kingdom . for the same order forbids any protestant who drives or professes any trade , to have under them any apprentice , either papist or protestant , that so they may not be able to do work enough to maintain their families . 6. the grand master and grand prêvot have given notice , by virtue of letters under the signet , to all protestants who had privileges , whereby they had right to keep shops , as chyrurgions , apothecaries , watchmakers , and other tradesmen , to forbear using their privileges any longer , and to shut up their shops , which hath been punctually executed . 7. they have establish'd societies of physicians at rochelle , and in other places , where , as i am assured from good hands , there were none ever before . none but papists will be received into those societies . by this , the jesuits have found out the way , at one stroke to hinder the practice of all the protestant physicians ; however able and experienc'd they may be . in so much that the lives of all sick protestants are by this means put into the hands of their enemies . 8. in short , there is scarce now any place in all france where they may get their livelyhood . they are every where molested and hindered from exercising in quiet any trade or art which they have learn'd . to dispatch them quite ; they require of them not only that they shall continue to bear all the burdens of the government , altho they take from them the means of doing it : but also that they bear double to what they did ; that is to say , they use a rigor far greater , than what was practised upon the people of god , when they were commanded to deliver the same tale of bricks , and yet had not straw given them as formerly . in effect , at the same time that they will not allow them , of the protestant religion , to get a penny : they exact of them to pay the king double , nay , treble , to what they paid before . monsieur de marillac , intendant of poitou , hath an order of council which gives him alone the power of the imposition of the tax in that great province . he discharges the papists , who are at ease , and overcharges the poor protestants with their proportion , who before that fainted under their own proper burden ; and could bear no more . i will tell you farther on this occasion , that the jesuits have obtain'd an order of the king , by which all protestants who change religion , are exempted for two years , from all quartering of soldiers , and all contributions of moneys which are levied on that account , which also tends to the utter ruine of them who continue firm in the protestant religion . for they throw all the burden upon them , of which the others are eas'd . from thence in part it is , that all the houses of those poor people are filled with soldiers , who live there as in an enemy's country . i do not know if the zeal of the jesuits will rest here : for they want yet the satisfaction of keeping s. bartholomew's day , as they kept it in the former age. it is true , what is allowed them is not far from it . for which is the better of the two , to stab with one blow , or to make men die by little and little , of hunger and misery ? as to the blow ( said i to our friend ) i do not understand you . pray , if you please , explain your self , what do you mean by keeping s. bartholomew's day ? monsieur de perifix , that archbishop of paris , who hath writ the life of henry the fourth ( answered he ) shall tell you for me . there 's the book , the place may be easily found . here it is : six days after , which was s. bartholomew 's day , all the huguenots who came to the ( wedding ) feast , had their throats cut , amongst others , the admiral , twenty persons of the best quality , twelve hundred gentlemen , about four thousand soldiers and citizens : afterwards through all the cities of the kingdom , after the example of paris , near a hundred thousand were massacred . an execrable action ! such as never was , and i hope to god never will be the like . you know then well , continued our friend , directing his speech to me , you know well now what it is to keep s. bartholomew's day , and i believe that what i said is no riddle to you . the jesuits and their friends set a great value on themselves in the world , because they forbear cutting the protestants throats , as they did then . but , merciless as you are , do you ere the less take away their lives ! you say you do not kill them , but do you not make them pine to death with hunger and vexation ? he who gives slow poison is he less a poisoner , than he who gives what is violent and quick , since both of them destroy the life at last ? pardon this short transport ( said our friend ) in good earnest i cannot restrain my indignation , when i see them use the utmost of cruelty , and yet would be looked on as patterns of all moderation and meekness . let me impart to you three letters which two of our friends who are yet in france have written to me since i came from paris . i received the two first at calis , before i got into the pacquet boat ; the last was delivered me last night after you went away from my chamber . you will there see with what gentleness they proceed in those countries . he thereupon read to me his letters , and i have since took copies of them send them here inclosed . a copy of the first letter . we are just upon the point of seeing that reformation which hath cost so much labour and pains , and so much blood , come to nothing in france . to know the condition of the protestants in the several provinces of this kingdom , you need but read what the first christians suffered under the reigns of the emperors nero , domitian , trajan , maximin , dioclesian and such like . there are four troops of horse in poitou who live at free quarter , upon all of the protestant religion without any exception . when they have pillaged the houses of them who will not go to mass , they tie them to their horse tails , and drag them thither by force . the intendant whom they have sent thither , who is their most bitter enemy , hath his witnesses ready suborned , who accuse whom they please , of what crimes they please , and after that cast the poor men into dark dungeons , beat them with cudgels , and then pass sentence of death to terrifie them ; and afterwards under-hand , send others to try them by fair means , to promise them that their mourning shall be turn'd into joy , if they will but go to mass . those whom god gives the grace to resist , die in the dungeon , through unspeakable anguish . three gentlemen of quality who went about to confirm some of the poor people in their village , that began to waver , were presently clapt up , flax put about their necks , then set on fire , and so they were scorch'd , till they said they would renounce their religion . there would be no end if i should relate all that is done . this you may be assured of , that the people of israel were never so oppress'd by the egyptians , as the protestants are by their own country-men . a copy of the second letter . to make good my promise of giving you an exact account of the continuance of the persecution which is rais'd against the protestants in france , i shall acquaint you that they of poitiers are threat'ned with being made a garrison this winter . i say they , the protestants : for none but they must quarter any of them . monsieur de marillac gives himself up wholly to the making of proselytes . the deputies of poitiers are now here to make complaint of the violences they still labour under . they offer , by a petition which they have presented , at the cost of their lives , if they are found guilty of any falshood , or if they do not make out what they say . they set forth , that by the orders of monsieur marillac , the protestants are dealt with as declared enemies ; that their goods and their houses are plundered ; their persons assaulted ; that the soldiers are employed as executioners of these outrages . that they are quartered upon the protestants only , that besides the excessive expence they put them to , they exact money of them with dreadful oaths and execrations . they knock them down , they drag women by the hair of the head , and ropes about their necks , they have put them to the torture with screws , by clapping their fingers into a vice , and so squeezing them by degrees , they have bound aged men , eighty years old , and beaten them , and have misused , before thir eyes , their children , who came to comfort them : they hinder handicrafts men from working ; they take from labourers what they use for their livelyhood ; they set their goods openly to sale , and they clap their swords and pistols to their breasts , who are not frighted with their other usages : they drag them in sheets into their churches , they throw holy water in their faces , and then say they are catholicks , and shall be proceeded against as relapsed , if they live otherwise . it is not permitted to these miserable persons to complain ; those who would have attempted it have been seised on , and the prisons are full of them . they are detained there without any process being made against them , and even without so much as having their names entred in the jayl-books . if any gentleman speak to monsieur marillac , he answers them , that they should meddle with their own business , that otherwise he will lay them fast . this is a taste of what they are doing here . a copy of the third letter . being very busie , it shall suffice at this time to send you a copy of a letter ; which i just now received from saintes , concerning the protestants of this kingdom ; sir j. p. our common friend writ it me . he is now making his tour of france . i intreated him to inform himself as well as he could how they treated the poor people in those places he was to pass through , that he might give me a full account . this is the letter , dated the last of august , old style . i am now going out of aulnix , where i meet with nothing but objects of compassion . the intendant of rochefort , which is monsieur du muins , lays all waste there . it is the same person concerning whom at the marquis de segnelay's we were told so many pleasant stories last winter at s. germain . do not you remember that they talked much of a certain picard , who owed all his fortune to his wife , and whom the marquis de segnelay treats always as the worst of men ? that 's the man , he is born to do mischief as much as ever man was , and his employment hath increas'd bis insolence beyond measure . to this he hath added , to the protestants grief , all the barbarous zeal of ignorance . and if the king would let him do it , he would soon act over again the tragedy of s. bartholomew . about ten days since he went to a great town in aunix , called surgeres , accompanied with his provost , and about forty archers . he began his feats with a proclamation that all the huguenots should change their religion , and upon their refusal he quartered his troop upon those poor people : he made them to live there at discretion , as in an enemies country ; he made their goods to be thrown into the streets , and their beds under the horses feet . by his order the vessels of wine and brandy were staved , and their horse heels wash'd with it ; their corn was sold , or rather given away , for a fourth part of what it was worth , and the same was done to all the tradesmens goods : men , women and children were put to the torture , were dragged by force to the popish churches ; and so great cruelty was used towards them that the greatest part not being able longer to indure the extremity of the pain , renounced their religion . by the same means they forced them to give it under their hands , that they had abjured without constraint , and of their own free choice . the goods of those who found means to escape , are sentenced to be sold , and to be pillaged . proud of so noble an expedition , our good man returns to rochefort , the place of his ordinary abode , forbids all the protestants , who are there pretty numerous , to remove any of their goods out of the town , under penalty of confiscation of what should be seised , and corporal punishment over and above ; and he commands them all to change their religion in five days . this was done by sound of trumpet , that no one might pretend ignorance . the term expires to morrow . after this he marched to mozé ( it is another great town in aunix ) where there is a very fair church of the protestants , and a very able minister , there he set out the same prohibitions , and the same commands that he had at rochefort . upon this a very worthy person of the place , and elder of the church , named mr. jarry , addressed to him with a most humble remonstrance ; and this cruel and barbarous man made him presently to be clapt up in irons . after this he quartered his men upon those of the protestant religion , where he exerciseth the same violence which he did at surgeres . nevertheless hitherto no one hath made shipwrack of his conscience in this place . they suffer all this cruel persecution with an admirable constancy . god of his mercy support them to the end . all the rest of aunix is in extreme consternation . there are likewise prohibitions made at rochelle , against the shipping of any goods . in so much that all they who flie away run a great hazard of carrying away their lives only for a prey . adieu . i will end mine as sir j. p. doth his : all your friends — do you intend to conclude there , said i to our friend ? i have a mind to do so ( replyed he ) tho i have a thousand insolences and outrages more yet to acquaint you with . but it is late ; and i have produced but too much to justifie the french protestants who forsake their country , from any suspicion of impatience or wantonness . you see now what are the reasonable means that are used to convert them . those goodly means which have been employed are , to despise the most sacred edict that was ever made by men ; to count as nothing promises repeated a hundred times , most solemnly by authentick declarations ; to reduce people to utmost beggary ; to make them die of hunger , in my opinion , a more cruel death than that by fire or sword , which in a moment ends life and miseries together ; to lay upon them all sorts of afflictions , to take away their churches , their ministers , their goods , their children , their liberty of being born , of living , or of dying in peace , to drive them from their employments , their honors , their houses , their native country ; to knock them on the head , to drag them to the mass with ropes about their necks , to imprison them , to cast them into dungeons , to give them the question , put them to the rack , make them die in the midst of torments , and that too without so much as any formality of justice . this is that they call reasonable means , gentle and innocent means : for these are the terms which the archbishop of claudiopolis useth , at the head of all the deputies of the clergy of france , in the remonstrance they made to their king , the last year when they took leave of his majesty . i must needs read you the passage : here is the remonstrance , and the very words of that archbishop : those gentle and innocent means which you make use of , sir , with so much success to bring the hereticks into the bosom of the church , are becoming the bounty and goodness of your majesty , and conformable at the same time to the mind of the divine pastor , who always retains bowels of mercy for these strayed sheep : he wills , that they should be brought back , and not hunted away , because he desires their salvation , and regrets their loss . how far is this conduct from the rigor wherewith the catholicks are treated in those neighbouring kingdoms which are infected with heresie . your majesty makes it appear , what difference there is between reason and passion , between the meekness of truth , and the rage of imposture , between the zeal of the house of god , and the fury of babylon . in good truth , cryed i to our friend , after the reading of this passage : this is insufferable , and i cannot forbear taking my turn to be a little in passion . methinks they should blush to death , who call those cruelties , which have been executed upon innocent sheep , meekness ; and that rigor , and the fury of babylon which we have inflicted upon tigers , who thirsted after our blood , and had sworn the destruction of church and state. they plague and torment to death more than a million of peaceable persons , who desire only the freedom of serving god according to his word , and the laws of the land , who cannot be accused of the least shadow of conspiracy , and who by preserving that illustrious blood which now reigns there , have done to france services which deserv'd , together with the edict of pacification , the love , and the hearty thanks of all true french men. and we have put to death in a legal manner , it may be twenty wretched persons ( the most of which had forfeited their lives to the law , for being found here ) convinced by divers witnesses , who were the greatest part papists , of having attempted against the sacred life of our king , and the lives of millions of his faithful subjects . surely they would have had us let them done their work , let them have rooted out that northern heresie , which they were , as they assure us by their own letters , in so great , and so near hopes of accomplishing . but we had not forgot the massacre of ireland , wherein , by the confession of one of their own doctors , who knew it very well , more than a hundred and fifty thousand of our brethren , in the midst of a profound peace , without any provocation , by a most sudden and barbarous rebellion , had their throats cut by that sort of catholicks , whose fate they so much bewail . altho your transport be very just , and i am very well pleased with it , said our friend to me , i must needs interrupt you ; to bring you back again to our poor protestants . what say you to their condition ? i say ( answered i ) that there can be nothing more worthy compassion ; and that we must entirely forget all that we owe to the communion of saints , if we open not our hearts , and receive them as our true brethren . i will be sure to publish in all places what you have informed me , and will stir up all persons to express in their favour all the duties of hospitality and christian charity . to the end ( said he to me ) you may do it with a better heart , at our next meeting , i will fully justifie them against all those malicious reports which are given out against their loyalty and their obedience to the higher powers . let us take for that all to morrow seven-night . as you please , said i , so we took leave one of another : and thus you have an end of a long letter , assuring you , that i ever shall be , sir , yours . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a55723-e240 declaration of the 17th . of june , 1681. art. 1. pa●…tic . ann. 1599 , p. 285 , and 286 , edit . amsterdam , 1664. p. 156 , & 157 , of the lions edition . see statutes at large . 1 elizab. 1. 5 eliz. 1. 13 eliz. 1. 23 eliz. 1. 27 eliz. 2. 35 eliz. 2. 1 jacob. 4. 3 jac. 4 , 5 , &c. printed for henry brome , 1674. art. 1. par . mr. god. hermant , doctor of the sorbon . tom. 1. book 2 p. 204. and notes of the same chapt . p. 625. surl ' an . 1572 edit . amsterd . p. 30. printed at paris cum privilegio chaz leonard , imprimear du roy. 1680. omahon s. th. mag. disputatio apologetica de jure regni hiberniae pro catholicis , n. 20. the opinions of certaine reverend and learned divines concerning the fundamentall points of the true protestant religion, and the right government of reformed churches wherein is declared the plaine path-way to a godly and religious life. published by authoritie. good counsells for the peace of reformed churches. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a53386 of text r216583 in the english short title catalog (wing o356). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 159 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 77 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a53386 wing o356 estc r216583 99828309 99828309 32736 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a53386) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 32736) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1856:19) the opinions of certaine reverend and learned divines concerning the fundamentall points of the true protestant religion, and the right government of reformed churches wherein is declared the plaine path-way to a godly and religious life. published by authoritie. good counsells for the peace of reformed churches. t. i. davenant, john, ca. 1572-1641. hall, joseph, 1574-1656. morton, thomas, 1564-1659. ussher, james, 1581-1656. [6], 64, 22, 23, [1], 7, [1], 29, [1] p. printed for ch. downes, [london and oxford] : 1643. dedication signed: t.i. works by bishops john davenant, thomas morton, joseph hall and archbishop james ussher and french divines. imprint from wing o355. a reissue, with different prelims., of: good counsells for the peace of reformed churches, 1641. reproduction of the original in the lambeth palace library, london. eng reformation -early works to 1800. great britain -church history -17th century -early works to 1800. a53386 r216583 (wing o356). civilwar no the opinions of certaine reverend and learned divines concerning the fundamentall points of the true protestant religion, and the right gove [no entry] 1643 27461 153 50 0 0 0 0 74 d the rate of 74 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-07 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-11 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2007-11 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the opinions of certaine reverend and learned divines concerning the fundamentall points of the true protestant religion , and the right government of reformed churches . wherein is declared the plaine path-way to a godly and religious life . ephes. 4. 15. speake the truth in love . published by authoritie . printed for ch. downes . 1643. to the godly and christian readers , grace and peace . as there is nothing more pleasing to god , than to be truly zealous for his glorie , so no way better to attaine that zeale , than to read and meditate upon gods commandements ; and strive to live in love and charitie with all men , which that you may the better performe , i beseech you peruse these ensuing discourses , and the lord give you understanding in all things . t. i. psal. 120. when i was in trouble , i called upon the lord , & he heard me . deliver my soule , o lord , from lying lips : & from a deceitfull tongue . what reward shall bee given or done unto thee , thou false tongue ? even mightie and sharp arrowes , with hot burning coles . wo is me , that i am constrained to dwell with mesech : and to have mine habitation among the tents of kedar . my soule hath long dwelt among them , that be enemies unto peace . i labour for peace , but when i speak unto them thereof , they make them ready to battell . the opinion of the right reverend father in god iohn dav●nant bishop of sarisbury . to his learned and worthy friend mr iohn dury . t is well worthy the consideration of all pious divines , which god speakes by his prophet zachary , love the truth and peace . with which that of the apostle also suite's well , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , speake the truth in love . wee may not so hotly pursue after trueth , as that in the mean time we wholly neglect peace ; nor may we desire such a peace as will not consist with the trueth . those divines therefore who quarrell and contend so much for the faith and religion , they may talke what they list , but hee that love's not both trueth and peace , love's indeed neither , nor hath he any true affection or desire to either of them , who desire 's them not both . for if it be true which philosophers tell us , that each naturall body doth no lesse desire it's unitie than it 's being , i see no reason why the spirituall and mysticall body , the church catholique , should not with as great a zeale study to preserve her unitie : seeing if that be once dissolved and lost , shee is so farre from being a church , that she cannot so much as be imagined one . let us then on god's name be as earnest and eager in desiring & defending the trueth as the best , but withall let us not forget that of saint paul , that if it be possible , and as much as in us lie's , we live peaceably with all men : j say , with all men , in an externall and civill ; but with all christian men , in a spirituall and ecclesiasticall peace . this is the earnest desire of our saviour christ , and 't is the joynt wish & prayer of his whol church , that all they who professe themselves beleivers in christ , might be united and knit together into one body ; that they might be all of one heart and of one soule . this being so , surely those pious and peacemaking divines are highly to bee commended , who of late have imployed themselves and their endeavours about the reeonciling of the reformed churches . for my owne part , i would to god i were able to contribute any thing that might further and promote so good and godly a worke . what i can , i shall willingly at your request ( sir ) doe it : and shall impart unto you what my thoughts were , when j lately meditated with my selfe hereupon . in the first place therefore , it would bee considered , whether or no it be possible to establish such an union amongst all the reformed churches , so as that they shall account of one another not as friends only , but as brethren ; and exhibit mutually each to other the signes , fruites , and effects not onely of an outward and generall freindship , but of a more intimate & spirituall amity and communion . for if this fraternall & spirituall union we so much desire , cannot be had , we may then desist ; things impossible doe not binde us to the having or seeking of them : but if it may possibly be procured , 't were a great pitty and a shame that so good a worke and so well-pleasing to god as this is , should be either opposed or delayed . now when i say , that it would first be considered whether or no this union we treate of , be possible ; my meaning is , whether or no such an union may stand with a diversity of opinions amongst private doctors in these severall churches , touching those much-controverted points which have of a long time ( to the great greife of all good men ) much troubled the germane churches . for although it were to be wished , that divines would fairely and fully agree amongst themselves about all those controversies ; yet for so many different mindes to concurre all in the same opinion , is ( as i conceave ) a thing scarce to be hoped for , much lesse to be effected in one age . but that these said churches , notwithstanding such disputes as hang undecided , may neverthelesse entertaine amongst themselves a christian charitie and correspondence , is apparent from hence , that as often as divines of both sides have set themselves seriously about this work , they still prevailed in it as much as they desired ; and they might no doubt have prevailed further , if they themselves had not wilfully stood in their own way . witnesse luther himselfe and the helvetians : betwixt whom ( though they differed in their opinions about the presence of christs body ) a freindly agreement notwithstanding was made at marpurge : luther there professing , that he would not by any meanes permit the adverse party that honour , to outstrip him in their desires of amitie and peace . which peace , after that it had by i know not what mischeivous devices been somewhat disturbed and diminished , was againe renewed & confirmed by them : whereat luther himselfe rejoyced , and upon a strict examination of the helveticke confession , held it very requisite that they should lovingly joyne hearts and hands together . but here if any one think , that this was no such entire and perfect union as that which now i affirm to be possible ; i will grant him this : but then i must adde withall , that it was not any impossibility in the thing it selfe , but rather the wilfull opposition of some amongst them , possest with some jealousies and suspitions , which was the cause why that godly and good worke was not brought to full perfection . for as for bucer and some other eminent divines of the same opinion with him , they did not only sue for an absolute and perfect agreement , but besides they offered to make it appeare that it was very fit such an union should be concluded ; neither did they omit any thing that might make for the furthering of it . moreover , that this union of the reformed churches we speake of , is not a thing impossible , is confirmed further from that agreement amongst the polonian churches , begun of late at sendomire , & ever since carefully by them kept and observed : it is true , they could not bury all controversies ; but they could banish all contentions ; and establish so perfect a peace , as that they refused not to admit of each other into their publike congregations , to the preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments . which holy & brotherly concord of those churches , that most wise prince lodowick , electour and count palatine , did not only by his letters to them congratulate , but desired of almighty god in his prayers , that the germane churches also might be blessed with it . what therefore was long since said to that blessed peace-maker king solomon , concerning the building of the temple at jerusalem , the same say i to all moderate and peaceable divines concerning the uniting of the reformed churches ; arise , yee worthies , and be doing , and the lord will be with you . never despaire but that may be now effected , which all men will grant hath been done heretofore . but least this groundlesse bugbeare of a fancied impossibility should yet slacken the endeavours either of princes , or divines , or any other pious and well affected christians , and deterre them from proceeding herein ; i will recount all those lets and hinderances , which render the peace and union of churches utterly impossible to be obtained : from whence it will easily appeare , that there 's no one of them here , to hinder why the germane churches ( notwithstanding some points of difference amongst them ) may not setle a firme peace amongst themselves , and being once setled preserve it inviolable . now the first and maine obstacle that hinders those churches which agree not in all points of religion , from entertaining a communion amongst themselves , is the usurping and exercising of a tyrannicall power and authority one over another . for if any one church will take upon her to domineer and lord it over the faith of other churches , so as not to acknowledge any for her brethren , nor admit of any into her fellowship and communion , but such onely as will be content to beleive and speak just as shee will have them , all hope is then taken away of ever obtaining or preserving any agreement in any differences or disputes whatsoever . for the sacred scriptures forbid us thus to enslave our selves to any humane authoritie , and our sole lord and master christ jesus forbid's us to acknowledge any upon earth for a lord over our faith and conscience : and that church which enter's into a communion with another upon these termes , doth not hereby purchase a peace , but rather resigne's up her selfe to a most unjust slavery . onely the church of rome is come to that height of pride & madnesse , that she will take upon her to exclude from the communion of saints , & damne to the pit of hell all such churches as will not submit their necks to that antichristian yoake of absolute and blind obedience . god of his goodnes ever keep off this popish folly and fury from setting foot in the protestant churches : which if it should once take place , that union of our churches which we are all bound to pray for , would bee no longer either to be hoped or wisht for . but ( blessed be god for it ) it is well known , there 's not any of the reformed churches but doe from their soules detest and abhorre all such antichristian ambition and desire of soveraignety . and thus have i removed out of the way the maine obstacle which usually occasion's a perpetuall division & rent betwixt such churches as differ in some points , and thereby make's an union of those churches to become impossible . a second let or hinderance which may render the said union of different churches ( for example , the saxon and helvetian churches ) impossible , is the approbation and practice of jdolatry in the one , & the utter detestation of it in the other . that of the prophet hosea is well knowne , though israel play the harlot , yet let not judah offend : come yee not unto gilgal , neither goe yee up to beth-aven . likewise also that of the apostle , what agreement hath the temple of god with idols ? and a number of places more to the same purpose . neither is that saying of tertullian touching this matter unworthy our observation , idolatry ( saith he ) is become the grand and generall sin of whole mankinde , the epidemicall disease of the whole world . since therefore god so severely chargeth us to keepe our selves from idols & all kinde of idolatry , though never so speciously colour'd over , wee may well call that morally impossible which cannot be performed without some staine and tincture of idolatry , and without a high and hainous offence against the sacred majestie of god . here then we may behold that grand let , whereby the reformed churches ( to their great greife of heart ) are forced to shunne a communion with the church of rome . for so farre in love is shee with her idolls , and so rigorously doth shee impose the worshipping of them upon all her children , that no man can be admitted into her communion , at least not continue in it , unlesse he will become a notorious and down-right idolater . if the case so stood , that the germane churches could not enter into and enjoy a blessed unity and peace one with another , except they must be required and bound either to practise an idolatrous worship , or at the least to beleive and professe that such practice is not unlawfull , i would not stick to affirme that a communion which cannot be had but upon such hard conditions , is indeed impossible to bee had : since ( as lawyers use to speake ) wee can doe onely so much , as may lawfully be done by us . and here we have just cause to blesse god , that the reformed churches ( although they have not the happinesse to agree in all matters of lesser moment ) yet doe they all of them by his grace unanimously conspire & joyne together against idolatry ; so as not onely to condemne , but also to beat downe and abolish it : insomuch that if at this very houre they were all disposed and desirous to joyne hands and strike a league of amity and union , it might be done without any the least danger of idolatry . away then with that pretended impossibility of a reconciliation , grounded upon the perill of idolatry : nor let any such false surmises weaken the heart or hands of any religious christian from going on with so good a worke . the third & last obstacle which doth block up the way to an union & render's it impossible , is the differing of severall churches about some fundamental point of faith , necessary to be knowne and beleived by every christian upon paine & perill of eternall damnation ; so as that the one side doth solidly hold and maintaine it , the other heretically denie's and oppose's it . for to be at peace with heretickes who goe about to undermine and subvert the foundation of our christian faith , what is it else but to revolt from christ the rocke on which the church is founded & built ? of this last obstacle , because it is of speciall use and moment , i shall treate somewhat more at large . in the first place therefore , i conceive that to be a fundamentall point , which ( by the ordination of god revealing such a truth ) is of such necessity unto salvation to be knowne and assented unto , as that a bare ignorance , much more a wilfull opposition of it carries with it a certaine perill of exclusion from the kingdome of heaven . divines now-adaies have no commission to invent or coine any new articles of this nature , and obtrude them on gods church : that which was not fundamentall in the apostolicall and primitive times , all our assertions and altercations and anathema's will never bee able to make it such . these first and fundamentall trueths , collected out of the whole body of the scriptures & put together in the apostles creed , make up that rule of faith which s. austin terme's pusillis magnisque communem , a common rule for all men , both great & small : and which is by him accounted necessary to bee beleived constantly by all . concerning the which , that speech of hilary also is much to the same effect ; 't is our safest and best course to hold fast that first & onely-evangelicall faith , which we made confession of at our baptisme . and to these fundamentall trueths the apostle ( i beleive ) had an eye , when he stiled titus , his owne sonne [ {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ] after the common faith . this common faith laid downe in the apostles creed , proposeth to all christians , to be beleived by them , the wonderfull production of all creatures out of nothing , the unsearchable mysterie of the glorious trinitie , the fruit & benefit that redound's to miserable sinners from the incarnation , passion , resurrection , and glorification of christ ; & , what follow's thereupon , the redemption of mankind , the sanctification of the elect , the communion of saints , the remission of sins , the resurrection of mens bodies , and the glorifying of the faithfull . he that beleive's all which wee have here comprised in this short creed , and endeavour's to lead his life according to the commandements and precepts of our saviour christ , cannot justly be denied the title of a christian , nor expelled the fellowship and communion of any christian church whatsoever . on the other side , he that shall deny or oppose any one of the said articles , although he arrogate to himselfe the name of a christian , yet is he to be excluded and banished the society of all orthodoxe and sound christians . besides these , there are ( i confesse ) many other trueths contained in the scriptures , and deducible from thence by good and solid consequence , which are very profitable to be knowne , and of singular use to further us in the knowledge of divinity : but they are then only ( and not otherwise ) necessary to be beleived under paine of forfeiture of our salvation or communion with the church , when 't is clearely evidenced unto us that they are contained in gods word , or may necessarily be inferred from it . in these points therefore , if any particular church cannot make the trueth which she her selfe beleive's , so cleare and manifest to other churches , as thereby to winne them over to the same beleife , shee must forsake them in their errours , but by no meanes may she ( because of such errours ) deny them her charity and communion . i adde further , that if it should happen that two churches should vary about some particular place of holy writ , the one conceiving that it confirme's a fundamentall point of faith , and the other thinking that it doth not so : yet is not such a difference as this a sufficient cause why they should fall at odds , and separate one from another ; so long as they agree both of them in the point it selfe , and acknowledge it to have cleare & solid foundation in other places of god's word . and last of all this may be added yet further , that 't is not a thing impossible , nor any way contrary to the duety of good christians , to entertaine a communion with those churches which hold such a doctrine as seemes to us inconsistent with some fundamentall trueth , so that in the meane while they doe expresly beleive & professe that fundamentall trueth it selfe . for 't is utterly against all charity , yea and reason too , that a man should be thought ( meerely for some consequences , which he neither apprehend's nor grants ) to deny and reject a fundamentall point , which yet he strongly beleive's , expresly affirme's , yea and ( if need so required ) would not stick to seale the trueth of it with his dearest blood . how much truer and more charitable is that opinion of a grave and moderate divine ? we must not ( saith he ) so much consider what will follow in the thing it selfe from every assertion , as what will follow from it in the apprehension and judgement of those who maintaine any such assertion as seeme's to us repugnant to some fundamentall point of faith . for as he who assent's to the trueth of some principle , cannot therefore be said properly to beleive and understand whatsoever and abler schollar can by consequences infer from that principle ; so neither can he who maintaine's a false opinion , justly bee thought to hold all those absurdities which a nimble head easily observe's to adhere unto or follow upon that erroneous opinion of his . we may indeed urge and presse these consequences upon our brethren , to see if haply wee can by this meanes beat them off their errour ; but malitiously to fasten them upon them , as though they were their profest opinions , this we may not doe . how farre this extend's , and of what excellent use it is to the setling of a brotherly union amongst the reformed churches , all wise men and such as unfainedly desire the peace of gods church , will easily perceive . for if it once be granted , that a peace and union is not impossible ( that is , not unlawfull ) save onely with such as actually disbeleive some fundamentall point of faith , or maintaine some such heresy as strike's at the heart of religion , and cut's off the abettors of it from having any communiō with christ ; then will it follow , that betwixt a sound and a diseased church , betwixt two churches whereof one is more , the other lesse pure , there may be such a brotherly communion as we desire among the germane churches . let therefore the orthodoxe churches separate themselves from all such as have plaid the apostates & fallen away from fundamentall faith ; but let them not separate from those which erre onely in points of lesser moment and such as doe not cut off the maintainers of them from being members of the mysticall body of christ , the sole author and fountaine of our salvation . the apostle command's us to receive ( not , reject ) such as are weake in the faith : and the same apostle tel's us how that we which are strong , ought to beare the infirmities of the weake , & not to please our selves . that church therefore doe's but too much please & indulge her selfe , which despise's other churches , as unworthy of her fellowship and communion , not for any tyranny that they exercise , nor any idolatry which they approve or practise , nor any damnable heresie which they maintaine , but meerely for some mistakes or infirmity of their knowledge . this was not the practice of the fathers in the primitive church : whose care and diligence in procuring & preserving peace amongst particular churches disperst and scattered over the whole world , stand's upon record in ecclesiasticall storie and may be observed in each severall age of the church . but of all other , that of optatus milevita nus fit's best to our purpose ; that all the churches throughout the whole world were by the help and entercourse of those letters by them called [ formatae ] kept in one communion and fellowship . now those [ formatae ] or synodicall letters contained nothing at all save onely a bare confession of the catholike faith delivered in their generall creeds , and breifely explained afterwards in opposition to some heretickes , by the unanimous consent of the church universall met together in generall councells held at nice , chalcedon , and other places . as for those infinite other questions which might be raised and debated amongst private doctours of each side , no church ever required or expected from others an absolute & universall consent therein . for if such an universall agreement in all points had been deemed so necessary as that unity & peace could not possibly have been maintained betwixt particular churches without it , there would then have been more need of huge and high-swollne volumes of controversies , than of such breife confessions and synodicall letters as they made use of for that purpose . but if wee refuse to learne of the ancient fathers of the church , yet let us at length learne thus much from our very adversaries , that it is not a thing impossible for severall churches to live charitably and peaceably together , and use the same service and sacraments , although they differ one from another about some controversies , wherein 't is meerely in vaine ever to look for an universall agreement . to say nothing of the contentions betwixt the thomists and scotists , neither of those between the dominicans and jesuites ; there is one controversie hotly and violently disputed amongst popish churches , which , if taken single and by it selfe , is of greater moment than all ours put together ; i meane that concerning the infallible judge in all matters of faith : the churches of spaine and italy will have the pope to be this supreme judge , authorised by christ himselfe , and so farre illuminated and assisted with an infallible spirit , as that he cannot possibly erre in such decrees and determinations as hee give's out with an intention to binde the whole church : on the other side , the french churches deny the pope any such priviledge , throwing him downe from his chaire of infallibility , and making him liable to errour as well as other men ; so farre forth that should he refuse to submit to the authoritie and judgement of a generall councell , either in matters of faith or of practice , they will tell you he 's to be esteemed a schismaticke and a hereticke , and to be deposed thereupon . behold here a great difference amongst them about the very foundation and the maine pillar of the whole catholike faith ! and yet notwithstanding this so great a variety of opinions , they still hold together all of them in one and the same brotherly communion . o for sion's sake let it not be told in gath , nor published in the streets of ashkelon , that the philistines should be better affected and more desirous of peace and unity amongst themselves , than the israel of god is . ●ast of all , if an union may not consist with a diversity of opinions in some controversies of lesser moment , i would gladly that any man would show me but two churches in the whole christian world ( except they be such whereof one is subordinate to the other ) which must not necessarily hereupon be divided , and as it were by a wall of partition separated frō each other . unlesse therefore we will grant , that a separation from other churches is not to be made save onely upon a difference in fundamentalls , the communion of the church catholike ( aunciently so much famed and talked of ) will be found in the end to be nothing else but an aery and empty sound or name void of all trueth and reality . the donatists of old were wont to say , that the church was perished from off the whole earth save onely from the part of donatus , in whom alone ( they said ) it was preserved : and our adversaries of rome ( herein right donatists ) tell us that the church catholike is of no larger extent than the romane . as for our selves , it become's and behove's us to detest this schismaticall and factious humour , and to foster and cherish a brotherly communion with all such christian churches as neither heresie nor idolatry hath cut off from christ our head , and such as have not exercised any usurped tyranny over other churches . all that hath hitherto beene said touching the lets & hinderances which render a communion of severall churches impossible , as also touching diversity of opinions which may well consist with such a reconciliation , aymes at this , that if once it were agreed upon amongst divines that all those controversies whereabout the reformed churches have of a longtime busied and wearied themselves , are of that nature that a man may safely be of either opinion and still remaine in christ , holding the substance of saving faith without incurring any damnable heresy ; then must we needs grant , that an union and agreement amongst all protestant churches may be made and maintained notwithstanding all such controversies , as being indeed not so properly any differences of our churches as of our schooles . it is not my purpose to enter the lists of those controversies : onely i doe pray and earnestly intreat those learned & reverend divines of germany , that laying aside all passion & partialitie , they would in the spirit of meeknesse calmely and candidly discusse all those severall controversies which are agitated amongst them : for if once we let loose the raines to passion , judgement must needs give place . the maine controversie , and which indeed is the fountaine from whence all the rest in a manner are derived , is that which stands yet undecided concerning the manner how christ's body and blood are present in the eucharist . touching which point the learned a bucer , having well waighed the matter , give's in at last this verdict , that they agreed in the thing it selfe ; all the difference was meerely in words and manner of expression . 't was once the speech of b luther , if you beleive & teach that in the holy supper the very body and the very blood of christ is offered , given , and received , and not the bare signes of bread and wine , and that such receiving thereof is true and reall , not imaginary onely , the strife betwixt us is ended . at that very same time c bucer & his adherents granted , that the very body and blood of our lord is offered , given , and received together with the visible signes of bread and wine . iacobus andreae saith , we neither hold with the capernaites , nor admit of popish transubstantiation , nor maintaine we any physicall or locall presence and inclusion of christs body and blood in the blessed sacrament ; nor doe we by those words [ substātially , corporally , orally ] understand any thing else but only a true & reall presence and participation of his body and blood in this sacrament . now let us heare the judgement of the helvetians herein ; although they deny that there 's any transubstantiation of the elements , or any locall inclusion of christ's body in the bread , or any conjunction of his body and blood with the outward elements remaining after the sacrament is ended ; yet they willingly grant that by vertue of a mysticall & sacramentall union the bread is christ's body , & that his body is truely present and received together with the bread . j doe not knowe what two things can possibly be more like than is this opinion of the helvetians with that of the lutherans . but if any man suspect that there may privily lurke a diversity of meanings under these so-concording expressions , yet are we still to urge , and enquire whether that diversity be such and so great as to render the peace and union of those churches utterly impossible , and to give just occasion for a perpetuall rent and division amongst them . i assure my selfe , learned & judicious divines when they are out of the heat of controversy , and look indifferently into the matter , will think farre otherwise of it . now as for those other controversies , concerning the ubiquity of christ's body , the communication of properties , & other such like , all springing from that former touching the sacrament , he that doth seriously ponder with himselfe what is granted and what denied of each side , will easily perceive that neither the one nor the other doth so much as call in question , much lesse oppose or overthrow any necessary and fundamentall point of faith : since both sides hold and professe whatsoever the church catholike in her creeds and generall councells hath declared to be beleived in these points ; and whatsoever hath been by her in like manner condemned as erroneous , is equally rejected by both . but yet notwithstanding all this , that we see now and then some men catching at consequences , and taking advantage from thence to charge heresy one upon another , it is a matter that deserve's not so much our wonder as our pitty : we all of us know , 't is the common custome of hot and eager disputants , especially when through long agitation of the matter they are inflamed with choller and passion : and besides , i have already showne in breife , what we are to think of such heresies as are fastned upon men meerely for such consequences as they themselves neither apprehend nor grant . for the present , this alone may suffice to show the possibility of a reconciliation , that there 's no one opinion expresly maintained by either side , which is directly contrary to the substance of faith , or destructive of salvation [ salutis devoratorium ] to make use of tertullian's expression : nay whatsoever is such , is plainly and expresly condemned by both . if of later times any new differences have been raised amongst those churches touching predestination , freewill , and the like ; these can no way be made a sufficient ground of schisme and separation betwixt them . for in all these there is nothing of fundamentall and necessary beleife save onely this , that the free grace & goodnesse of god , in the predestination of miserable men , in the conversion of sinfull men , in the freeing of their captivated wills ; in a word , in the finall perseverance and salvation of his elect , be so farre forth acknowledged and extoll'd , as that whatsoever makes any way for the enstating of them in grace and glory , and whatsoever is done by them in reference thereunto , all must be ascribed to the speciall grace and mercy of almighty god : on the contrary , whatsoever concerne's the corruption of man's nature , his obstinacie in sinne , the pravitie and servitude of his corrupt will ; in short , whatsoever praecipitate's & plunge's wretched men into hell and everlasting perdition , all this we must thank our selves & our sins for , & by no meanes impute any part of it to god . so long as these things stand firme and unshaken ( as without doubt they doe ) though in the meane time their manner of apprehensions and expressions , yea though their opinions be different in other points which are onely superstructions and belong not to the foundation ▪ yet are not these of such moment as that a perpetuall breach and division should be made and continued betwixt whole churches for such petty matters . if therefore this were but once agreed upon amongst divines , that their jarres and contentions are not , nor ever were about any fundamentall points and such as are of absolute necessity to be known and beleived by all that will be saved , then must it also be granted for a manifest trueth , that 't is no way impossible but an agreement and communion may be established this dangerous schisme utterly rooted out , and a blessed peace setled and preserved amongst the german churches . and thus having proved that a reconciliation is possible , it remaine's that in the next place we consider whether or no princes , doctors and pastors of gods church , and in generall all christians bee not bound in duty by the law of god , every man to endeavour according to his utmost power and ability that such an union may with all convenient speed be setled and established amongst the reformed churches . 1 and that all men are so bound , seeme's to be intimated by that of s. paul which i alledged before ; if it be possible , & as much as in you lie's , live peaceably with all men . if so great care and diligence must be had to maintaine a civill and externall peace with all sorts of men , then surely a spirituall & ecclesiasticall peace amongst christians is much rather to be sought after and preserved , where therefore there is no utter impossibility to hinder why such an union may not be obtained , such men can in no wise be excused , who either out of negligence or wilfulnesse disobey the commandements of god herein . nor can any man justly here pretend that discords and diversities of opinions cannot as yet be composed and setled : for if it be possible that the schisme it selfe & the rent betwixt these churches may be taken away , ( as without all question it may ) i had rather that a mil-stone were hanged about my neck , and that i were drowned in the depth of the sea , than that i should willingly be any hinderance to so good a work , so well-pleasing to god , and so necessary to the removall of scandall ; nay than that i should not with my whole minde and might promote and further it . 2 to this may be further added , what must necessarily be confes't by all men , that a true and right order'd charity is of as great necessity for the attaining of salvation , to all churches and to every particular member in any church , as is the true and entire profession of sound and saving faith : our lord and saviour christ jesus make's this the badge and cognizance whereby to distinguish and discerne betwixt his true disciples and such as are spurious and counterfeit ; by this shall all men know that yee are my disciples , if yee love one another . now i leave it to every man's conscience to judge , what manner of charity that is , which see's and suffer's christian churches ( without all just cause and necessity ) to stand still at distance and defiance one with another , and perpetually to shunne a reconciliation and union . is it not enough for us to separate from the hay and stubble , i meane , from the errours of other churches , but must we by a voluntary separation forsake the churches themselves which as yet have not forsaken christ or his truth ? 3 further yet , we see how that both zuinglians and lutherans ( as they are usually termed ) confesse that those churches which hold with either side , doe notwithstanding still remaine true christian churches , & true members of the church catholike , whereof christ is the head . the renowned princes in their preface prefixt to the forme of agreement plainly professe , that it was farre from their thoughts and intentions to condemne such persons as erred through the weaknesse of their judgement ; provided that they did not defame and blaspheme god's trueth ; much lesse to condemne whole churches , living either under the romane empire or elsewhere : nay they did not doubt but that there were many pious & religious men living in those churches , though they agreed not with them in all points of religion . moreover , when it was objected to lucas osiander , how that he had sometimes termed calvinists the divel's martyres , hee forthwith purged himselfe from that aspersion thus ; they that have heard my sermons , will say that they never heard from me any reproachfull termes against the blessed ▪ martyrs of christ : yea my owne writings publisht to the world will witnesse for me , that j termed those which were massacred in france on s. bartholomewe's day , holy martyres . this then would be seriously thought upon , whether or no it will stand with the policy , piety , and the duty of christian churches , for every petty errour to deny the right hand of fellowship and brotherly love to those churches , who in the mean time ( notwithstanding such errours ) may continue christ's blessed martyrs and holy brethren . they who acknowledge christ for their elder brother , must of necessity whether they will or no have all christs brethren joyned to them in a most sure and fast knot of consanguinity and communion . 4 besides , i am very confident that both the saxon , and helvetian , & all other churches which joyne with either of those two , will professe that they desire to have and to retaine a brotherly communion and peace with this our church of england , as also with the scottish , jrish , and all other forraigne churches of the reformation . and truely we for our parts , although we doe not assent to them in all points of controverted ▪ divinity , yet doe we account of them as our brethren in christ , and doe solemnely protest that we entertaine a holy and brotherly communion with them . and if they be like affected towards us , with what reason then and equitie doe the german churches deprive themselves of that brotherly communion one with another , which yet they are not afraid to entertaine with forraigne churches ? what therefore moses said long since to the two israelites that were striving together , the same may truly be said to the germane churches quarrelling and contending one with another , but cannot so truely be disproved ; sirs , yee are brethren , why doe yee wrong one to another . 5 last of all , that which all good men are bound to beg of almighty god in their prayers to him , questionlesse they are bound likewise to imploy their best care and endeavours for the procuring of it . now who is there that doe's not daily solicite god for the flourishing and peaceable estate of his church ? who is there that make's it not a part of his daily prayers , that god would be pleased to remove out of the way whatsoever doth disquiet and disturbe her peace , or any way let and hinder her spirituall growth and edification ? this was king david's wish ; & it should be the wish of all good princes , and divines , and generally of all christians . neither did david wish onely the happinesse and prosperity of gods church , but hee carefully sought to doe it good , and as much as in him lay he did procure and effect it . all this was but duty in him to doe , and can it be lesse then dutie in us ? and here i should but trifle away the time , should i goe about to play the oratour and expresse at large to the germane churches , the blessings that accompany peace & unitie , & the many miseries & calamities of a long-continued schisme and division . that speech of prudentius is a most certaine trueth , — scissura domestica turbat rem populi ; titubatque foris quod dissiditiktùs : civill and intestine broiles alwaies prove the undoing of a people ; nor doe things ever goe right abroad , when there is dissention at home . what may make most for the good and advantage of their churches , let it be their care to consider ; and resolve this with themselves , that what ever it be , it is not onely to be sought after with their prayers , but with the utmost diligence and endeavours of every one of them in particular . neither let any unexperienced men amongst them thinke or hope , that they shall ingratiate themselves with papists , and so live more peaceably by them and suffer lesse harme from them , by refusing to enter into freindship and fellowship with calvinists ( as they terme them . ) what is to be hoped for & expected from them , we may learne from osiander ; papists ( saith he ) spare neither lutherans nor zuinglians , but condemne both of them to fire and faggot , in all those places where the pope ( that raging and ravenous beast of rome ) beare's rule and sway : they that are most in favour with them , can at best but hope for that kindnesse from them which vlysses ( in homer ) obtained of polyphemus , [ {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . ] to be devoured last , after he had lookt on and seene all his freinds and companions devoured before him . they will perhaps destroy the calvinists first , but the lutherans must look to follow after them : none are like to escape in the end , if once the papists have them at their mercy . what hitherto hath been said , is to show that a communion and reconciliation of the germane churches is a thing , not only possible , but in obedience to gods commandement a necessary duty . it now remaine's that j proceed to set downe the way and meanes whereby such a reconciliation may be compassed , and the rents and distractions of the said churches may with most conveniencie and speed bee made up : which i shall doe , rather to testifie that vehement desire & zeale which i have to so good a work , than out of any opinion that those famous churches ( which alwaies have abounded with store of learned and pious divines ) can any way stand in need of advice herein from me or any other forraigne divine whatsoever . seeing therefore that the fore-mentioned controversies may be agitated either betwixt severall and distinct churches , whereof one is no way subordinate to the other ; or else betwixt such particular men as are members of the same church , and subjects to one & the same prince : j will speak first , of divers churches independent one upon another , and afterwards of particular men in one & the same church , and show how peace and unitie may be made and preserved amongst them . for the first , i conceive there 's no readier and better way for reducing of two different churches to the same communion , than is that usuall one of procuring a faire and peaceable conference amongst divines of both sides , authorised and appointed there unto by their princes . for if any one imagine , that a councell being once held of all the reformed churches , there will out of hand within the compasse of some few moneths , or yeares , yea or in one age , an end be put to all disputes whatsoever , which have of a long time troubled and busied the learned , so as that they shall all joyne and agree in the same opinion about all such points of controversie ; this ( with submission to better judgements ) seemes to me very unlikely . for so dull and dim-sighted is the eye of our understanding , that it can hardly peirce into the depth of such subtle and intricate questions , no not when it is alone , free and undisturbed in it's contemplations : but being distracted , by the stirs & tumults of disputation so far unable are we to penetrate into the quick of them , that many times we cannot so much as discerne and perceive them , no not when we look upon them with a fixt and steddy eye . and ( to speak plainly what i conceive in this matter ) the cheife use of councells , especially of generall councells , is to maintaine and defend those necessary and plaine points of faith against the oppositions of hereticks , rather than to discusse or determine nice controversies of lesser moment and use . to returne then to that faire & freindly conference , which but now i commended for the likeliest and fittest meanes of obtaining an union : if it could be undertaken with such an intention , & mannaged in such sort , as it ought to be , wee have good cause to hope that we shall in a short time see a blessed peace and union established amongst the germane churches . this therefore must carefully be remēbred by all such as shall be present & parties to such a meeting , that the end why they are called together , is not that like adversaries they should strive for the mastery , but rather that they should like brethren search out and make use of all lawfull and warrantable meanes for the setling of peace and unitie . for if once they fall a crossing and contending one with another , they will never be able to perswade , much lesse to procure any agreement betwixt such churches as are at ods and opposition . let them therefore carefully keep off and forbeare to enter the intricate labyrinths of ordinary disputes : & let their meeting aime at this one end , to make it appeare to their churches , how that there 's no just cause why they should any longer stand out and refuse to joyne hands and be united . to effect this , let it in the first place be set downe how farre the church catholike hath declared herselfe in each controversie , what hath been by her defined and required to be beleived generally by all sub anathemate . for about points fundamentall there may sometimes arise such doubts and disputes as are no way fundamentall : and such , as that the ancient fathers of the church , had they been raised in their times , would never have attempted a decision of them , to the hazard of breeding or fostering a schisme betwixt severall churches . for instance , that god is one in essence , and three in persons distinguished one from another ; that the sonne is begotten of the father ; that the holy ghost is the spirit of both father and sonne ; that these three persons are coeternall and coequall ; all these are fitly determined , and reckoned in the number of fundamentalls : but now if any man should peremptorily affirme and maintaine , that all those schoole-nicities touching the manner of the sonne 's generation , and the procession of the holy ghost , are likewise fundamentall and of equall necessity with the former , & ought to be determined one way ; that man should deserve but litle thanks from christ and his church , by such his rash and inconsiderate assertion . so likewise , that our lord jesus christ is both god and man ; that he hath both natures , divine and humane , inseparably united in one person ; and that we have salvation onely by this god incarnate ; all this is fundamentall , or rather 't is that firme & immoveable foundation whereon the whole catholike & saving faith is built : but yet notwithstanding we must not think , that whatsoever may be questioned and debated about the ineffable manner of that union betwixt the two natures , or the manner how his body is present in the blessed sacrament , as also concerning the communication of properties unto the humane nature by vertue of its union with the divinity , or touching the actions and operations of his humanity depending upon the said union , wee must not ( i say ) imagine that all these belong to fundamentall faith , but rather to theologicall science , or perhaps not so neither , but onely to the vaine curiosity of some particular divines . let them therefore make this their first and maine businesse , carefully to distinguish betwixt fundamentall points and others that are not so ▪ and let them not think , that whatsoever is appendant and bordering upon a fundamentall point , must therefore forthwith be it selfe fundamentall . when this is once done ; their next care must be that these fundamentalls be expressed and published after a breife and perspicuous manner , and propounded to the publike acceptation and approbation of all the churches . certa semper sunt in paucis , saith tertullian ; certaine and undoubted trueths are not many , and they are such as may be delivered in a few words : whatsoever is necessary for a christian man's salvation to be knowne by him ; and whatsoever is conducible to render us holy or eternally happy , it is all of it plaine and obvious . here 's no use either of subtle & acute distinctions , or of any long and tedious explications , which are oftimes used not for the building up of christians in the fundamentall faith , but rather to favour and further the different opinions of private doctors . in a word , here 's no use of any metaphysicall formalities and abstracted notions ; which serve only to perplex and confound the learned , and to deterre such as are unlearned from embracing the catholike faith ; but doe not any way encline the hearts either of one or other to yeild assent and beleife to the fundamentall points of faith . after they have proceeded thus far , having drawn up a breife and plaine forme of all such points as are by them judged to appertaine unto the substance of that common faith which is necessary to be known and professed by all churches ; & having passed by & left undecided all such points as are not so generally received & agreed upon ; in the next place , moderate & peaceable divines should labour to exhort and perswade all the rest , that they would quietly lay aside all controversies and contentions about such points as good christians may safely be ignorant of without hazard of their salvation ; and that they would not quarrell any longer about thē , to the danger of the church , the losse of her peace , and the scandall of schisme which is thereby like to fall upon her . of what good use and necessity this advice is , may be clearely seen from the rashnesse of the church of rome , and her clean contrary practice herein : who being not content with those articles delivered in the apostles creed , and nicene creed , will needs obtrude upon the christian world those other new-coin'd articles of the trent-conventicle , and hath thereby ministred occasion of a perpetuall rent and schisme amongst the churches . how much more prudently did that blessed martyr and most learned father of his times , s. cyprian behave himselfe ? who professeth , that he would not , for difference in opinion , contend or strive with any man ; nor would he break the peace of our lord with his brethren , or cast off any man from his communion , because he was of a different minde from him . by which his christian charity and moderation , s. cyprian ( though in an errour ) deserved better of the church than stephen bishop of rome who was in the right , and did ( by his unquiet spirit ) as much as in him lay to rend and teare asunder the churches . thus warranted by the example of this blessed martyr , and likewise by the judgement of s. austin herein , i need not stick to affirme , that amongst the doctors and divines of germany those who are in the errour and yet are willing and desirous to retaine a brotherly communion with the rest , are freer & further from schisme in gods sight , than they who are in the trueth & withall disdaine and deny to entertaine such a communiō with other churches which seek and sue for it . if therefore they can but get an universall consent in all fundamentalls , though in other things there bee some difference amongst private doctors , yet let them all joyne their votes and voices in this prayer to god , nulla salus bello , pacemte poscimus omnes ; no safety can be had or hoped for in warre , therefore give peace in our time ô lord . but if any here shall demand , what course is to be taken about such controversies as cannot be decided and agreed upon , that they may not give any occasion whereby this peace and union of the churches should be hindered , or being obtained should afterwards be disturbed and lost ; i will set down some few rules , which to me seeme worthy the observation and practice of divines on both sides . first , that whatsoever tart and bitter passages have formerly slipt from adversaries either by word or writing , amids the heat of disputation , they should all be pardond on both sides for the publike good , and for ever after buried in silence and oblivion . and if it happen that any of those books and writings should afterwards be reprinted ; before they passe the presse , let them first be purged of all gall & bitternesse , which otherwise would but rub up and renew the old sore of strife & contention amongst brethren . secondly , because no man can with patience heare himselfe branded with heresie , heed must be taken that none be slandered with the name of nestorian , eutychian , or any other condemned hereticke , so long as he doth expresly denie and disclaime the damn'd opinions of such hereticks : seeing it is utterly impossible that ever they should continue firme in a brotherly communion and concord , who for every petty difference in opinion cease not by such reproachfull and reviling termes to provoke and exasperate one another . and it were to be wished further , that those siding names of lutherans , zuinglians , calvinists , were all laid aside ; which are badges rather of faction than any fraternall union , anh such as the ancient fathers could never approve of . epiphanius would not allow christians to beare any {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , any other name added over & above to the name of christian , but rest content with that . non petrianos , non paulinos vocari nos oportet , sed christianos : who ought not to be called either petrians , or paulians , but christians , saith nazianzen . but of all others lactantius is the most severe and rigorous herein ; christiani esse desierunt , qui christi nomine omisso humana & externa vocabula induerunt ▪ they have left off to be christians , who take up forraigne titles and humane appellations instead of the name christian : though to say the trueth , such names are rather fasten'd and father'd on particular churches by others , than by themselves either desired or owned . thirdly , that all profound and controverted points be let alone and not medled with in sermons preached to the common people , or in any such books as are publisht in the vulgar tongue ; let them be accounted rather the exercise and busines of the schooles , than any fit food & nourishment for men's soules . such perplex'd disputes may very well be spared in the pulpit ; but charity , which usually is impaired by the handling and discussing of them , cannot be spared or wanting amongst christians , without the utmost danger and hazard of their soules . the common people doe but play and sport with such controversies , they are no whit profited by them ; and in the end , not well understanding them , they give over sporting , and fall a quarrelling and contending about them . last of all , if divines shall hereafter have a minde to disperse or publish and discourses about these points , let them doe it according to that grave advice of greg. nazianzen , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , with reasons , not revilings : let their aimes & intentions be , not to non-plus and baffle , but rather fairely and freindly to informe and reduce their straying brother into the way of trueth . hee that shall after this manner be brought to see and forsake his errour , will not thinke himselfe vanquished , but instructed ; nor will he be abasht and asham'd , like one over matcht & overcome by his adversary , but rather rejoyce as one better'd and benefited by his brother . he that is a proficient is never ashamed . hitherto have i laid down the meanes and manner how an union may be setled and continued betwixt severall and independent churches . but because it may and often doth happen , that there are divers men , both learned and unlearned , living in the same church and within the dominions of the same prince , whose consciences ( whether rightly or misinformed ) will not suffer them to subscribe to the common and more generally received opinion in these controversies ; let us in the next place enquire , what course is best to be taken concerning such men . and here , the governours of each severall church if they have any regard & respect to the safety of their weak brethren , they must see that they doe not intermixe with the publike confessions and articles of religion , which they would have received and assented unto by all such as live under their jurisdiction , any curious and unnecessary controversies , nor any decisions of nice and subtle questions ; but rather they must take care that such publike confessions be framed and temper'd to the capacity of the common people , so as they may instruct & edify the ignorant , and promote the salvation of all . herein they should doe well to consider the wisdome of our fore-fathers ; whose ancient confessions ( unlesse we corrupt & stuffe them with new opinions of our own , on purpose to disturb the publike peace ) no sober and discreet man will refuse to subscribe unto them . neither is there any necessity why we should burden our publike confessions with any such additions of our own ; since god himselfe hath ordained to bring his people to heaven and happines , not through the rough & knotty paths of perplex'd & intricate disputes , but by the smooth and compendious way of faith & charity . why then such strifes and contentions about words ? what make schoole-nicities amongst church-confessions ? the salvation of christians is wholy placed in beleiving and serving god , as that great athanasius sometimes gravely spake . adde to this , that they will have much adoe to maintaine a firme peace with other churches , who cease not to persecute men and expell them their communion ( as if they were hereticks ) onely because they maintain that doctrine which those other churches hold and professe : for in so doing , what doe they else but tacitly charge heresy upon other churches ? whom though in word they acknowledge for their brethren , yet they hereby show that in their hearts they much disapprove and dislike them . lastly , unlesse the publike confessions of churches be cnofined to such points onely as are fundamentall and generally received by all the reformed churches , this inconvenience must of necessity follow thereupon , that many learned , pious , and peaceable ministers shall be driven out & disenabled from exercising the ministery in those churches wherein they live . but if any man doubt , whether or no such men may lawfully entertaine a holy and spirituall communion one with another in the same church , who yet agree not amongst themselves in all points of divinity ; this ( as i conceive ) is a matter out of all doubt and question . for as touching that blessed communion which is betwixt christians at the receiving of the lord's supper , it consist's cheifly in these particulars , that by the common bond of the blessed spirit we are all united to that sole head of the church christ jesus ; that by the same spirit , and by faith and charity we are united amongst our selves and linked together as it were into one body ; that lastly , like men fed at the same table , we are all of us nourished up unto eternall life with the same quickning food , to wit the body and blood of christ : in all these particulars doe they professe a communion , whosoever approach and are admitted to that holy table . but now as we doe not by this mutuall communion professe our selves to have attained all of us either to perfection or to an equall measure of knowledge in divinity : so neither doe we hereby professe , that there is an absolute and exact agreement amongst us about all points of divinity , or that we are all of us in one and the same opinion about all disputes and controversies . if no communion could be had amongst christians , but upon such hard termes as these , i beleive it would hardly be found betwixt s. peter and s. paul ; certaine i am the church of corinth must of necessitie have fallen in peices ; and in these times of ours there would not easily be found many divines of note and eminence , which could with a safe conscience communicate together at the same holy sacrament and supper of our lord . it is therefore the duty of all church-governours ( as being conscious to themselves of the common infirmities of all men , both themselves & others ) to take heed least while they exact of their people a too strict and punctuall confession of more than what 's necessary , they thereby wound and weaken the sweet peace and unity of christendome , than which nothing more necessary . so much for church-governours . come we in the next place to such ministers and other christians of what state and condition soever , as desire to continue in the communion of those churches wherein they live , but yet their consciences will not permit them to allow & professe all the common and received opinions of the said churches . such men must see that they show themselves teachable and tractable , and not persist after a proud and pertinacious manner in defence of those opinions wherein they dissent from their church . now such a one is to be accounted teachable and tractable , who lends a willing and attentive eare to the instructions and information of the church ; who doe's not dissent from her out of any perverse and peevish humour , but meerely out of the weaknesse of his judgement , being not able in such profound points to discerne that trueth which men of greater learning and more acute wits easily see and perceive . and because it is the peculiar prerogative of almighty god to search the hearts , it behoves us christians to encline alwaies to the more favourable and more charitable side ; and , where we have not cleare and evident reasons for the contrary , we ought to judge of every man that he denies his assent rather out of conscience than contumacy and perversenesse . they who thus behave themselves , are not to be excluded and expelled the communion of those churches wherein they live , for petty mistakes and errours in their opinions : but yet with this caution and condition , that they take not upon them to oppose the received opinion of the church , or to publish & spread their own private opinion amongst the common people . nor can they justly dislike of this caution or take it ill , whosoever have a desire to live peaceably in the communion of the church : for admit that the private opinion of some divine or any other christian , be true ; and the publike judgement of the church , erroneous : yet neverthelesse , if the errour be such as doe's not prejudice a christian man's salvation , it is much better that the true opinion of any private man whatsoever should quietly lie hid in silence and obscurity , than that the publike authority of the church should be openly contemned and trampled on , or that the churche's peace , by this unnecessary conflict of jarring opinions , as by two contrary windes , should be shaken and torne in peices . but if any man be perswaded in his conscience , that his private opinion wherein hee differ's from the church , is of such moment and importance as that men cannot be saved without the knowledge of it ; such a one , if he cannot perswade and convince the rulers and governours of his church in this matter , must either turne aside into some other church , or else ( for the good of men's soules ) patiently submit to such censures as the church in which he live's shall inflict upon him . this is it ( most learned sir ) which at your request i thought good to write and send unto you . if it may stand you or any man else in any steed for the advancing of the churche's peace , i have all my wish & ayme for which i penned it . they who are better acquainted with the present state and affaires of the germane churches than i am , will be able ( no doubt ) to give you fuller and better advice herein . for my selfe , it remaine's onely that i humbly beseech almighty god , that he would move and encline the hearts of princes , earnestly to desire this blessed union of our churches ; that he would enlighten the understandings of divines to find out and follow after such meanes as may most conduce to the speedy establishing of it ; that lastly he would enflame the hearts of all christians to embrace this peace , & bequeath it to all posterity . the god of peace grant this for the sake of his deare sonne , the sole author & procurer of our peace . to whom with the blessed spirit be all honour , glory , & thankesgiving world without end . amen . the opinion of the right reverend father in god thomas morton bishop of dvrham , concerning the peace of the church . worthy sir , i cannot easily expresse how much i was joyed with those few leaves which i lately receaved from you ; as soone as i understood how that there was now at length some hopes of setling a true and brotherly union betwixt us & those of germany who hold the augustane confession . for seeing that the very name of peace is sweet and delight some , much more the thing it selfe ; especially if it be a peace in religion , which indeed comprehends in it all kinds of true peace and unity : i cannot chuse therefore but congratulate and joy you ( sir ) with that good and truly-apostolicall office which you now undergoe : an emploiment which hath ever this successe , that it never can prove in vaine , or be altogether lost ; for it will be sure either to redound to the good of him that receive's it ( if it be embraced , ) or else ( if rejected ) returne back againe into his bosome who proffer's it . notwithstanding , i observe there are two maine controversies set downe by you , which seem to let and hinder why wee cannot quickly be united and made one church ; the former is touching the eucharist ; the other , touching that involv'd and mysterious point of praedestination . for the composing of which two controversies , that you should desire my opinion , seeme's truly to me to be a course somewhat preposterous and out of order : rather wee should imitate ( as i conceive ) those expert physitions , who sometimes cure one contrary by another : so likewise we , seeing that discords in opinion have bred disaffection and hatred in men's minds , 't were necessary we should first endeavour that love and amity may be seated in the hearts and affections of men , that so we may the more easily allay their heat in disputation , and reconcile them in their much differing opinions . to the promoting of this good work i neither can nor may be wanting . all that i shall say touching both controversies , give me leave to glance at in three words ; to wit , that the way & meanes of establishing an union , to men of peaceable minds , is easie ; to such as are lesse moderate , t is possible ; to both , very necessary . the first thesis . that 't is easie for peaceable and moderate men to be reconciled . this appeare's plainely from that love and freindship which was in times past betwixt the professors of both sides , notwithstanding that their differences in opinion were then very rife . this is a point of speciall moment , and therefore for proofe of it we should not alledge the examples of any obscure men , but of such as were eminent and beyond all exception of both sides . let them then ( if they please ) consult their luther , melanchthon , jacobus andreae , brentius : wee 'l bring in our calvin , bucer , peter martyr , and zanchy : all which sometimes shined in the church of christ like starres of the first magnitude . first then , there are to be seene in calvin's workes many excellent elogies of luther , even then when luther did inveigh most bitterly against all our men in the point of the sacrament , and provoked them farre to repay him in his owne language . whose passions , thereby moved & enflamed , calvin with admirable prudence supprest & kept from breaking out ▪ but i desire ( saith he ) you would consider , first what a worthy man luther is , and with what excellent gifts qualified ; with what courage & constancy , with what dexterity , with what successe and efficacy of his doctrine he hath hitherto bent and bestir'd himselfe to lay wast the kingdome of antichrist , & maintaine the doctrine of our salvation : i have many times said , that should he call me divel , yet neverthelesse i would still have so reverent an esteem of him as to acknowledge him for a worthy servant of god . thus calvin : a saying so full of sweetnesse and moderation , as if not a man but humanity it selfe had spoken it . not long after , he made use of the apostle's argument to containe & keep in our divines , least waxing too hot and passionate , they should break out into revilings : it become's us ( saith he ) so to reprove what we finde amisse in him , as that we remit something out of an honourable respect to his rare endowments : let not therefore that befall u● , which is denounced by s. paul , that by biting and devouring one another we be consumed . though he have provoked us , yet are wee rather to keep us quiet than to teare the wound wider to the publike danger and dammage of god's church . but now how did luther carry himselfe ? was he so farre possest with prejudice and passion , as to disdaine all commerce and societie with our men ? nay he refused not to enter into freindship with calvin himselfe , though he knew him to be a stout champion of our sacramentary cause . let calvin himselfe speake , if you please , notwithstanding luther ( saith he ) in private was so farre from accounting me his enimy , that though he well knew my opinion , ye refused he not to salute mee with reverence by letters writ with his owne hand , ( for the dishonesty of westphalus forceth mee to speake thus foolishly , so as to relate it in the very same expression which he himselfe used . ) afterwards , when the agreement was halfe finished at marpurge , and they were not yet departed from that meeting , he affirme's that he retained the same esteeme of occolampadius and zuinglius as he formerly had done ▪ and he did there solemnly promise to account and respect them hence forth as brethren . secondly , what an intimate freindship & familiarity there was betwixt melanchthon , jacobus andreae , brentius , and our divines , the mutuall salutations which passed betwixt them can abundantly witnes : melanchthon writing to calvin , begins his letter after this manner ; reverend and christian brother , i trust we shall have a time to meet and conferre together . and afterwards concluding , i beseech the sonne of god , our lord jesus christ , the guardian and keeper of his church , that he would guide and protect thee and us all . farewell most deare brother . besides , what was observed concerning melanchthon & others by our sturmius , he himselfe will by no meanes conceale from us ; as though ( saith he ) philip melanchthon did not impart his opinion ( touching the sacrament ) to peter martyr , afterwards , to divers others : with whom he still continued in love and freindship further , jacobus andreae and brentius did unanimously adhere to the opinion of luther concerning the eucharist , of whom notwithstanding calvin thus speaks ; your letters , worthy sir and my much honoured brother ( speaking to jacobus andreae ) were not a litle welcome to me ; for as much as i understand by them how that amids these sad and unhappy contentions , wherein i am most unwillingly engaged , you still continue like affected towards me as heretofore you have been . againe , this your moderation of mind i embrace & highly applaud . farewell worthy sir , and my much respected brother . i wish all happinesse to brentius . god almighty ever guide and direct you by his blessed spirit , strengthen and sustaine you by his power , and shower downe his blessings in abundance upon you . and againe , in another letter , brentius salute's you . thus were matters carried amongst thē : and why should not we , putting on bowells of meeknesse , tread the steps of these worthies ? shall they breath out nothing but mildnesse and sweetnesse , and wee nought but rage and fury ? god forbid . i have done with the first thesis ; i now proceed to the second . the second thesis . that 't is possible for the most hot and rigorous spirits to be reconciled and agreed . give mee leave to make use of that maxime of aristotle , so frequently used in the schooles ; but in a sense somewhat different — quae conveniunt in eodem tertio , inter se conveniunt : such two things as agree in any one third , agree likewise betwixt themselves . in like manner , i conceive that though we differ much in our opinions about the eucharist , yet there are still remaining amongst us some common principles and certaine notes or notions out of which any one who is not blinded with prejudice may draw an assertion . one is , the authority of scripture , sufficient of it selfe to challenge a beleife : a second is , the cleare light of antiquity , as cleare as the sunne at mid-day . but this is no fit place to discourse at large upon these . three other there are which in no wise may bee passed over , seing they are such as are more proper and peculiar to the two adverse parts . i wil begin with the first of thē . the augustane confession is by the divines of saxony esteemed as an oracle , of undeniable and unquestionable authority ; now if our men allow and approve of that confession , ● doe not see what can possibly make more for the obtaining of a reconciliation . and for certaine calvin herein agrees with them : i desire ( saith hee ) as much as any man a sincere and true union , so it be such as god hath approved in his word : nor doe i reject the augustane confession ; whereunto i did once wittingly and willingly subscribe , according to that interpretation which the author thereof himselfe put upon it . againe , i affirme ( saith hee ) that in that confession , as it was printed at ratisbon , there 's not so much as one word which is contrary to our doctrine : and if there be any ambiguity to be met with in the sense , none is more ●it to be the interpreter of it than the author himselfe , whose worth will easily obtaine him that honour with all pious and learned men . so he. neither is he singular in this : but others there are , though of the same opinion with him concerning the eucharist , who will grant as much . a i am of the number of those ( saith john sturmius ) who concerning the receiving of the body & blood of christ approve of the augustane confession . hierome zanchy hath a desire to bring in his verdict too , b i professe ( saith hee ) that as often as i had occasion to speake any thing about this point , i did alwaies containe my selfe within the compasse of these three heads ▪ the first whereof is , that in the lord's supper not onely bread and wine , but the very body and blood of our lord is truely offered us by christ , and likewise truely received , truely eaten and drunke by us . the second , but this is done not by the mouth and teeth of our body , but by a true and an actuall faith . the last , that therefore this is done by beleivers onely , and by none others . now these heads are taken out of god's word nor are they repugnant to the augustane confession . these things being so , those worthy men have the more reason to be entreated by us , that besides the said augustane confession ( which was anciently framed and ordained to be the common rule of faith for all protestants , whereby they might be distinguished from papists ) they would not obtrude upon us any other private opinions of their own , to the hinderance of the publike peace . a second principle of the like nature , which even reason it selfe doth dictate , is this ; that no antecedent is to be urged and pressed , the necessary consequent and sequell whereof may not bee granted by us . but now it is well knowne , that luther , to remove out of the way the perill of idolatry , did abolish all a worshipping at the celebration of the eucharist , which had formerly been practised ; and for the same end he abolisht the elevation of the host also ; that b brentius likewise did with much earnestnesse oppose their breaden god , ( for so hee himselfe terme's it ; ) lastly , that c melanchthon did reject their bread-worship in the lord's supper . those godly and learned men therefore are to be entreated , that they would well weigh with themselves whether or no these same abuses which they with so great applause cryed down and abhorred , be not for all that the genuine ofspring of that vbiquity which at this day is maintained by them . thirdly , least any man haply should pretend , that no whit is to bee abated of that bitternesse and rigour wherewith at first they exercised the patience of occolampadius , and zuinglius , they are againe to be intreated that in their great wisedomes they would herein take notice of a vast difference ananias , in the ninth of the acts , when first he was warned in a vision to put his hands upon saul , he was somewhat unwilling to doe it ; j have heard ( saith he ) by many of this man &c. but afterwards , having better understood the counsell and purpose of god , he gladly embrace's him , saying , brother saul the lord hath sent mee unto thee . the very same might have been heretofore observed in the carriage of luther himselfe towards zuinglius and oecolampadius ; whom at first hee fell upon roughly , when he heard that they held there was nothing in the eucharist save only bare signes and figures : but afterwards , having further examined their meaning , he kindly & courteously reacht out the right hand of fellowship unto them . after the very same manner did calvin likewise stand affected towards them , as he himselfe confesseth ; when at my first entrance ( saith hee ) into the cleare sun-shine of the gospell out of popish darknes , i read in luther how that oecolampadius and zuinglius would admit of nothing in the sacraments but bare and empty figures , this ( i confesse ) so farre possest me with a prejudice against their writings , that i refrained a long time from reading them . thus spoke calvin at that time of those men , whom notwithstanding he afterwards had in great love and familiarity with him . why may not then the saxon divines be pleased to show themselves luthers towards us , so long as they finde us not inferiour to oecolampadius and zuinglius in this point ? the third thesis . that this friendly vnion and reconcilement we wish for , is very necessary for all men , whether of a milde or turbulent disposition . it is not my purpose to lash out into common places , wherein much paines might be spent , and litle or no benefit got by it . it behoves me rather to provide me of such arguments , as may , not coldly beg and intreat , but command , and as it were violently compell men to live at peace and unity amongst themselves . neither are there any ( as you well know ) fitter for the setling and confirming of such a communion , than are those which are drawne from the common joy , or greife ; the common danger , or the common good & advantage of both sides . there 's not a more evident and infallible signe of a true member of christ , than to compassionate or to have a fellow-feeling one of another ; which is seene especially in two things : first , in rejoycing at the hopes of a reconciliation ; such as was the psalmist's joy in that divine acclamation of his at the unity of brethren , ● how good and joyfull a thing it is ! secondly , a sorrow of heart at so long and wearisome a dissention ; such as the jewes expressed by their great thoughts of heart for the divisions of reuben . schisme growing and getting upon the church at corinth , the apostle exhort's them to bee [ {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ] perfectly joyned together in the same minde and in the same judgement : the word is derived frō {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which amongst physitions signifies to set right againe such members as are out of joynt . the same apostle , that he might compose and setle the mindes of the philippians , ô what a sacred charme doe's he make use of ! if ( saith he ) there be any consolation in christ , if any comfort of love , if any fellowship of the spirit , if any bowells of mercies , fulfill my joy . but how may they doe that ? he goes on ; that yee be like minded , having the same love , [ {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ] being of one accord , of one mind . i verily beleive , that eloquence her selfe , if she had a tongue to speake , she could not have spoke more emphatically : where each word is a sharp dart , peircing and wounding our very hearts and soules . i will adde onely that long chaine of vnities in the same apostle to the ephesians ; one body , one spirit , one hope , one calling , one lord , one faith , one baptisme , one god and father of all : all which make for that one thing which he there aime's at , to wit , that the ephesians should endeavour to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace . as touching the danger , we all of us know that the tyranny of the romish antichrist hang's over our heads : who sweetly sing's to himselfe that blacke and fatall maxime [ divide & impera ] set them once at variance , and then you may quickly master them ; or rather , by setting them at variance , you may confound and tumble them into the pit of hell : for the kingdome being once divided , hell it selfe cannot stand . let us learn to be wise from the examples of others : the guelphi and gibelli●i [ those two implacable and irreconcileable factions ] did agree together and joyne their forces , when the common enimie came against them ▪ and shall not we rowse our selves up to save & defend our selves ? as for the gaine and advantage i mentiond , can there be any greater gaine than salvation ? and yet even this too , the more common , the greater and better it is . let us then ( i beseech you for the love of god ) set before our eyes the greek church , which now seeme's to sue and wooe to us for a brotherly union and agreement , as appeare's from that confession of faith lately set forth in the name of all the easterne churches by the right reverend father cyrill patriarch of constantinople : which agrees exactly with our protestant confessions in every article set forth and published by him . me thinks i see this most ample & farre spreading part of the christian world ready to fly into our armes & embraces presently upon the first newes of our unity and agreement amongst our selves : which hope of ours should christ be pleased to crowne with successe ▪ this alone would farre outvie and surpasse in glory all the triumphs and trophies of all the emperours in the world . but i hasten to your other question . the other controversy . concerning that unfathom'd mystery of praedestination upon the foresight of faith and workes . this is that other question ( as i gather from your letter ) whereon as on a rock divers men ( otherwise desirous of peace ) have dasht and split themselves . that therefore men may knowe , i have not of my owne accord sought after and catcht at this opportunity to dispute , but rather am cast upon it against my will , my proceeding herein shall be not by way of disputation , but ( as the times rather require ) by way of exhortation & advice . i hope therefore the learned divines of saxony will take this my advice in good part , wherein i earnestly pray and beseech them , first , that they would be reconciled to their owne luther in this point , who ( as it did well become a child of grace ) did constantly hold and maintaine that the grace of god is every way free and gratuitous . next , that they would not , in the patronizing and vindicating of divine grace , suffer themselves to be outstript by papists , nay jesuites , and the prime doctors too of that sect , bellarmine , tolet , pererius , suarez , salmeron , maldonat : who have all of them exploded this doctrine of praedestination upon the foresight of faith and workes , as pure pelagianisme . last of all , it is some wisdome for a man to profit by his enimy : there came out a book two yeares agon , written by will : de gibieuffe , of the oratorian order , priest and doctor of the sorbon , dedicated to the present pope vrban : wherein are inserted the words of pope clement the eighth concerning the auxilia gratiae : the summe whereof is this ; that this whole doctrine ought to be squared and conformed to s. austin's judgement in the point of grace ; that the same s. austin ought be acknowledged and followed as a guide and leader , for asmuch as that good father seeme's to have omitted nothing which concernes the said controversies : and because ( saith he ) many of our praedecessours have stood up so stoutly for that doctrine of s. austin concerning grace as if they desired to have it continued in the church as her right of inheritance , it is not meet i should suffer her to be deprived of this her patrimony . thus farre that pope : unto whose judgement ( j will not say , for the authority , but the trueth of it ) i nothing doubt but calvin himselfe , were he now living , would subscribe : and he that shall read calvin's writings , will quickly grant , that in these controversies he had more than an ordinary share of s. austin's legacy . thus you see , sir , how that partly your importunity ( who are such an earnest factour for peace ) and partly my own zeale in so necessary a cause , have made me exceed the accustomed bounds of a letter ▪ wherein , if you finde not much judgement , yet may you behold my care & desires for christian peace . the author of all true peace , our lord jesus christ , strengthen and enable you by the power of his holy spirit cheerefully to goe thorough with this so waighty an employment for the publike peace of his church . farewell . thomas durham . postscript . that we should thus first seek and sue for brotherly love & unity , is so farre from being any prejudice to our cause , as that it is rather to be counted an honour to us : in that we herein follow the precept and practice of god himselfe ; of whom the evangelist saith , 1. joh. 4. 10. he first loved us . the opinion of the right reverend father in god ioseph hall bishop of exceter . those articles of religion wherein the divines of both sides doe fully agree , are abundantly sufficient , both for a christian man's salvation , and likewise for the establishing of a firme & lasting peace in the churches of god . as for the rest , i would not have them reckoned amongst the apostle's [ {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ] foolish questions : doubtlesse they are such as may perhaps not unfitly bee sent to the divinity-schooles , there to bee throughly discussed : but by no meanes ought they to disquiet the peace either of any christian soule , or of god's holy church . what doe we professing christian charity and love , if we still obstinately refuse to indulge our brethren this litle liberty of dissenting from us in doubtfull & difficult schoole-questions ? seeing wee know very well that our good and gracious saviour passed over with silence and toleration great and greivous errours in comparison of these ( if it be granted that these are errours , ) and that too even in such as were of his owne houshold and retinue . there are but three things about which the reverend divines of both sides professe themselves to differ . the first is , whether or no our lord and saviour jesus christ be truly omniscient , omnipotent , and omnipresent not only according to his divinity , but also according to his humane nature , by vertue of the personall union ? that the lord jesus ( to wit god and man ) is in both his natures omniscient , omnipotent , and omnipresent , is confest on each side : this being granted , the word [ according ] is a meere schoole-nicity . how farre the vertue of that hypostaticall union extend's it selfe , the holy ghost is silent , and a christian may safely be ignorant of it . let the doctors , if they list , dispute and busie their braines as much as they please about this matter : it will be enough for a christian , to knowe that he hath a saviour who is both god and man , to whom all these attributes truely belong and appertaine . nay even divines themselves have enough wherein they may rest satisfied , so long as this be granted on both sides , that even the humane nature considered personally is omniscient , omnipresent , & omnipotent : which wee all of us roundly and readily professe without any doubt or scruple . o what enimies are we to peace , if we will yet needs quarrell amongst our selves ● in all this , i wish we would carefully remember that usefull distinction of john gerson , esse quaedam de necessitate fidei , quadam verò de fidei devotione : that there are some things essentiall and necessary to faith , other some things which shee piously and devoutly beleives , but yet they are not of such necessity as the other : the former are such as may not so much as bee once doubted of , but these latter may admit of an {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ; we may safely either suspend our assent unto them , or positively dissent from them . the second article wherein they differ , is concerning the manner of receiving christ in the eucharist . both agree , that christ's body is truly and really given , taken , and eaten in this sacrament together with the outward elements : all the question is concerning vnworthy receivers . an unworthy question truly it is , that the publike peace should any way be disturbed about it . we willingly grant both of us , that even such as are vnworthy doe eat that which by a sacramentall union is christ's body ; and that therefore they are guilty of the body and blood of jesus christ : what doe wee now making any more adoe about the manner of their eating , whether it be orall or not ? let christians make this their care , that they thēselves may be found worthy communicants , and let them not trouble themselves to knowe how those which are unworthy are partakers of christ . how farre the vertue of that sacramental union extends it selfe , and whether the manner of this eating be orall or spirituall , let the schools dispute it : christians need not be too curious in enquiring after it ; nor is it fit wee should disquiet the churche's peace , by refusing to indulge mutually one another a liberty of opinion in such nice points . the third article is that fatall point of praedestination : about which , divines of both sides expresse themselves variously , but yet modestly and discreetly . in many things , and such as are of most moment , their judgements on both sides are the same : as , that election is most free , & proceeding from the meere mercy of god , that god found not any cause or occasion in those whom hee elected , the sight whereof might move him to chuse them rather than others : but that he did from all eternity reprobate and praedestinate to eternall damnation such as persevere and persist in their sinnes and infidelity ; not by any rigid and absolute decree , without having any respect or regard to sin , but out of his most just judgement : so as all the cause & the blame of it ought to be sought for in the men themselves . in this they are at a stand ; that the foresight of faith and perseverance is by the reverend divines of saxony placed before the act of god's election : so as god did from everlasting foreordaine such as he fore-saw would in time beleive , &c. certainly of all the questions about praedestination , this concerning the order of his decree is least materiall ▪ seeing we know assuredly that the infinite & all-wise disposer of things performes all this with one single & most simple act . there is nothing more certain than that god did foresee who would beleive , and that he did praedestinate such as should be saved : let but this then be granted ( which they of saxony willingly professe ) that faith is the sole gift of god , and that whatsoever good there is in the elect , all of it doth originally proceed from the free grace & meere mercy of god , which was bestowed on them in jesus christ from all eternity ; i say , let this be granted , and doubtlesse there can be no danger in that opinion of praevision or fore-sight : god from everlasting fore-saw that ▪ which he himselfe from everlasting decreed to bestow in time upon such as should beleive . all this is sound and safe , nor is there any cause why any further strife & contention should be made here ▪ about . in all this , i embrace and applaud this christian and brotherly moderation and holy desires of peace : thus it becomes christians , thus it becomes divines . i am much deceived , if this modest and seasonable appeasing and calming of men's minds doe's not promise a firme and perpetuall peace to god's church . thou god of peace , in thy good time accomplish it : give eare to the prayers of thy people , and grant that all christians may be of one heart and one way , till at length we come , by thee who art the way , to thee who art the life . amen , amen . from the palace at exceter . febr. 25. 1634. which is the humble , daily , and devout prayer of jos : exon : afterwards the same mr john dury sent unto the ld bishop of exceter a coppy of a certaine pious and peaceable decree , made & published by a generall vote at a publike meeting of the states in franckfort : requesting his opinion concerning the meanes and manner how this good worke might be advanced ▪ where unto he had returned him this answer . to his most faithfull , learned , and loving freind mr john dury , all happinesse . sir , ihave read over , with a great deale of delight , the transcript you sent me of that decree for peace , which was lately signed by all the protestant states and delegates assembled at franckfort : than which decree , nothing ( in my opinion ) could possibly have been devised more full of prudence and religion : nor doe i see ( as the case now stand's ) what more could be once hoped for ; or what could possibly have beene proposed and resolved upon that might more conduce to the advancement of the publike peace , which all good men so much wish and desire . thus it was meet that the holy citizens of god's church , that pious princes and peeres should thus carefully provide for the peace and safety of christendome and blessed be god , the bestower of every good gift ▪ the author of peace , who did put into their noble hearts those holy desires and purposes : may the same good god be pleased , at length to finish this his owne work so hopefully begun , and crowne it with successe . and truely neither our prayers nor our utmost endeavours shall ever be wanting hereunto ▪ neither know i well upon what hopes it is , but methinkes my mind doth confidently promise and praesage a happy issue to this holy enterprise . for indeed what a small and slender hedge is it , which now divide ▪ s and part 's us ? we doe all of us of the reformation , receive and approve the same scriptures , the same creeds ▪ the same augustane confession : onely in one article the sense is so doubtfully expressed , that the author himselfe did not thinke it safe to adhere to the letter of it . the foundation of the christian faith is , amongst us all , one and the same , entire and unshaken ; there 's not so much as one stone in it , or the least peice of coement , about which any question either is or can be made ▪ upon this foundation there are built certain points of schoole-divinity , about which alone we so hotly contend : but what are these to a christian ? what are these to salvation ? in what a safe and quiet state might the affaires of christendome have been , if such nice disputes of curious and over-busie heads had never been heard of ; if learned men could have contented thēselves with some generall formes of expressing the trueth , and not presently to have sifted divinity so over-nearly as they have done ? but seeing these strifes , which are not onely unprofitable , but very hurtfull and prejudiciall to both sides , are thus unfortunately raised ; what better advice can be thought upon for the setling and composing of these stirres , than that the faith be brought back againe to its primitive simplicitie and plainenesse , by the publike authority and joynt consent of the christian church ? and that in this confused mixture and multiplicity of matters of beleife , the christian world be taught warily to distinguish betwixt the genuine and proper articles of faith , and the lesse necessary additions of schoole-conclusions : which truely in this very businesse is a matter of no great difficulty to performe . this especially is fundamentall , christ is both god and man ; and so likewise this , christ , god and man , is truely omniscient , omnipotent , omnipresent : now if any shall adde further , jesus christ , according to his humane nature , is omniscient , omnipotent , omnipresent ; truely that word [ according ] seemes to be farre off from the foundation ; 't is a scholasticall notion , and to be turned over to profest divines ; but it is not fit the salvation of plaine and illiterate christians should be made to hang and depend upon such a subtle and nice point as this is . can these knowe , or are they bound to know , how farre the vertue of the hypostaticall union extend's it selfe , or what the bounds are either of those faculties or operations which flow from that union of the two natures ? certainely if god had intended this for a necessary point to be knowne by all men , he would not so sparingly and obscurely have revealed unto his church a mystery so fundamentall and important . i dispute not the trueth of the point , ( nor is this pertinent to my purpose , ) onely i question whether it be of necessity to be beleived . let us view a comparison betwixt things humane & divine , although what similitude can there bee'twixt earth and heaven ? man consists of a soule and a body united one to the other : and yet notwithstanding , each part hath its severall properties and actions , which are usually attributed ( and that very rightly too ) to the whole ; the whole man hath the use of sense , doth understand , eat , walke , sleep , dye : thus much even sense & reason doth unanswerably evince : will any man hereupon say , that this also is of equall necessity to be knowne , man according to his body hath the use of sense and reason ; and according to his soule he doth eat , walke , sleep , and dye ? truly the same that reason is , in respect of intelligible matters ; the same is faith , in things spirituall and divine : i am not ignorant , how much they differ in their subjects ; yet neverthelesse the necessity of the things which are either to be known or beleived , is alike different in both . such trueths therefore as are certaine , such as are necessarily to be beleived , and apparently fundamentall , let us all unanimously embrace and professe them : as for the rest , let divines ( if they please ) busie their heads with them , but let not the plaine & common sort of christians trouble themselves about them more than needs . but if it may seeme to make any thing for the publike peace , that we come as neare as we can one to another in the formes and manner of expression ; let us but say ( as * hier : zanchy sometimes alledged out of innocent and the schoole-men ) that even christ's humane nature according to its personall essenc● is omni present , &c. and i see no reason why both sides may not , nay will not readily consent and agree to it . here let us fixe ; let neither side proceed any further beyond this , and wee are safe . in the point of the sacrament this is certaine and fundamentall , that the true and essentiall body and blood of christ is truely present , offered , and received in that holy supper● but whether or no it be corporally present in the bread & wine , whether or no ( by a supernaturall vertue of the conse●rated elements ) it be orally received and eaten , even by wicked and unworthy communicants , this is a matter of theologicall dispute , and such as ( in the judgement of luther , melanchthon , justus jonas , ofiander , brentius , stephanus agricola ▪ yea & of oecolampadius , zuinglius , bu●er , hedi● ) ought not to infri●ge christian love and charity . and upon this promising signe was begun that famous agreement at marpurge , in the yeare 1529. that likewise is well worthy to be kept in perpetuall memory , which is related concerning the meeting at witemberge , in the yeare 1536 , by ludovicus rabus pastor at vlme , in his history of martyrs : with whom agree's iohn swiccius , pastor at constance ( cited by hospinian ) who was there present at that time ; and 't is to be seen likewise in the english writings of bucer ▪ there were present at that meeting , of the one side , capito , bucer , musculus , and the rest of the more eminent divines out of the cheife imperiall cities in high germany ; of the other side , luther , philip , ionas , pomeranus , cruciger , with other doctors & preachers of witemberge : and after some expostulations , and divers speeches to and fro , wherein both sides freely & fairely delivered their opinions , at length luther ( stepping a litle aside with his associates , and conferring with them about it ) concluded with these words ; if yee beleive and teach , that in the holy supper the very body and the very blood of christ is offered , given , and received , and not the bare ●ignes bread and wine ; and that such giving and receiving is true and reall , not onely imaginary , the strife betwixt us is at an end , and we doe acknowledge & receive you as our deare brethren in the lord . all this , bucer , capito , and the rest , plainely and freely affirmed : whereupon they joyned hands , and so parted . indeed the waters were then calme and quiet , not tossed with any stormy and tempestuous winds ; and therefore they did clearely shew and represent the face of trueth . why doe not we in like manner now at last begin to be wise ? and having passed those tempestuous and troublesome times which afterwards followed , why doe we not sit downe and rest our selves in this old and safe harbour of peace and unity ? concerning the point of praedestination , how doth the church of christ groane under the burden of a number of huge & high-swolne volumes ? yet when wee have done all we can , and wearied our selves and the christian world with our wrangling pens , this will still remaine to be knowne and beleived by all men , 1 ▪ that god from all eternity out of his meere good pleasure did immutably elect some unto salvation . 2. that none were elected by god , nor shall be saved , who doe not beleive in jesus christ , and persevere in this faith . 3. that none can beleive in christ , save onely they whom god is pleased to enable hereunto , and to worke it in them by the effectuall grace of his spirit ▪ 4. that god did not damne , no nor reprobate any man , but with an eye to sin : so that all the cause & the blame of men's damnation , lie's in themselves ; but the cause of election and salvation is in the meere grace and mercy of god . now all this is confeston both sides . ● know right well , there are infinite questions & controversie a raised about this point : let every man on god's name enjoy his owne opinion ; i will not prescribe to any man . for my selfe , if any man be desirous to know what my opinion herein is , i freely professe my selfe to adhere to the articles of the church of england , and to the judgement of our english divines who voted in the synod at dort ( wherein my selfe was presen 〈…〉 but what is there in this profound point , about which vulgar and illiterate christians need to trouble themselves , save onely that plaine & obvious trueth confest by all ? for the rest , let divines dispute them in the schooles ; but it were well if they would forbeare to medle with them in the pulpit . how are the very same controversies , and others of greater waight and moment , still on foot in the church of rome , and yet so warily and wisely doe they carry the matter , that the publike peace is notwithstanding preserved amongst them . let vs learne wisedome from them who professe nought but enmity towards us . would but christian princes by their authority decree , & divines fairely and moderately containe and keep themselves within these bounds of disputation and controversie ( bounds indeed larg and spatious enough , ) wee should have a lasting & firme agreement , the church would flourish in peace and tranquillity , and lastly trueth would bebome victorious and triumph over the common enimy . that this may be brought to passe ( as we all wish and desire it should ) the honourable states and delegates did very wisely propose and advise that a publike meeting of peaceable divines should be summoned and sought for by invitatory letters , that the freindly & laudable conference , which was begun at li●swich , should be reassumed and prosecuted with like modesty as it had formerly been be gun ; that all such di●ines of note & eminence as cannot be present at that meeting should send over their opinions and advice ; that all the fundamentalls of religion , necessary for salvation , should be determined , and all other points laid aside , and turned over to the schooles ( if need should require ; ) that in the meane time men's tongues and pens should be enjoyned moderation or else silence ; that lastly publike prayers should be solemnly made in the churches of both sides for the successe of this good worke . let but these things be done with an upright heart , in the feare of god , and wee need not doubt of a happy issue : it is god's own cause , he will not be wanting to himselfe . for you , mr dury , who have hitherto with such zeale , such unwearied paines , so many dangers , so great charges , prosecuted this designe so well pleasing to god , his angells , and men ; truly you have deserved so well of the whole church , as that all good men must acknowledge themselves much indebted to you . goe on ( worthy sir ) with your great undertakeings , and put a period to this good worke : or rather , may the great god of heaven & earth doe this for you and us all ; and may he still preserve and prosper you in these travailes and labours of yours . farewell from your loving freind jos : exon : the opinion of the most reverend father in god iames usher lord arch-bishop of armagh and primate of ireland , with some other reverend bishops in ireland . reverend and much respected brother in christ ; wee had long since by common consent made ready an answer to your former letters which you writ unto us severally some moneths agon : but being desirous to have likewise a generall subscription to it according to that agreement which should be betwixt fellow-brethren of the clergy , we deferred the sending of it somewhat the longer in hopes of a meeting . you desire us now in your second letter dated from london march 20. that we would give you our opinion concerning the conference at lipswich ; the rather , because that conference is likely to have some effect and influence upon the busines you have in hand . thus therefore ; that meeting ( though it was called for other ends and reasons ) yet seeing it was holden with such good successe , and that the cheife divines of both sides had so faire & freindly a conference , heard one another with such patience , & parted with such love and brotherly affection , it is a very good signe that this matter is from the lord , and from this good beginning who can chuse but hope for a happy and successefull issue ? but yet notwithstanding , they parted differing about three points : it is well that they differd but in three ; & 't is better yet , that even in those three points they agreed in most things , and such as are of greatest moment ; nor was their difference so much about the thing it selfe , as about some formes of expression , which for the most part we cannot so easily forget and cast off after we have been long accustomed to them . for seeing it is confest on both sides , that christ hath two natures in one person , so inseparably united that neither can they be divided , nor are they confounded , but still remaine distinct and severall without all mixture or aequality ( so much as of their properties , ) to what end is it to quarrell about improper and figurative propositions ? so likewise in the eucharist , seeing they both agree that the faithfull doe eat not only the fruit and benefit , but the very essence ( or substance ) of christ's body ; and that on god's part the sacraments are exhibited entire & perfect , the thing signified together with the sign , what doe they contending about hypocrites and unbelievers ? 't is all one as if physi●ions should fall a disputing about a dead man , whether or no the potion he tooke hath any operation upon him . there remaines yet that other much controverted question touching praedestination : and yet even in this too it would be no hard matter for them to be reconciled , were but spleen and partiality laid aside , and in the roome thereof a reverent and modest feare how we pry too farre into god's secret counsells , placed and planted : seeing the best and ablest divines of both sides acknowledge , that in many questions about this mystery we must be faine to take up st paul's exclamation , o the depth ! and that 't is both lawfull & sufficient for them to rest and hold together in those cleare & undoubted trueths ; namely , that the election of such as shall be saved , was made in christ ; that the destruction of all such as perish , is from themselves ; that salvation is from god ; that faith ( yea even foreseen faith ) is not from our selves , it is the gift of god , that we may not boast of any thing , seeing we have nothing of our own ; all must be ascribed to god : as s. cyprian of old devoutly and pithily spake . thus you have , both what we hope & conceive of the conference at lipswich . but the most principall and speciall thing , which should be earnestly prest and inculcated , is this ; that in divine matters , espocially in such high and difficult mysteries as these are , which are rather to be adored than pried into , we ought to have a certaine and set rule to speake by ▪ as s. austin sometimes prudently and piously counselled : & therefore it would be a very safe and good course for us to refraine from all novell and new-fangled expressions , and to confine the liberty of prophecying to such formes and phrases as the holy scriptures doe furnish us withall . it remaines , that wee earnestly beseech the god of peace to bruise satan under our feet , & that shortly : unto which god we heartily recommend you ( reverend brother ) & rest may 14. anno 1634. your most affectionate friends james armagh . william kilmore . john ardagh . the judgement of the same right reverend father , the lord arch-bishop of armagh , delivered in a sermon of his preached before k. iames at wansted , iune 20th . 1624. if at this day wee should take a survay of the severall professions of christianity , that have any large spread in any part of the world ( as of the religion of the romane and the reformed churches in our quarters , of the aegyptians and aethiopians in the south , of the grecians & other christians in the easterne parts , ) and should put-by the points wherein they differ one from another , and gather into one body the rest of the articles wherein they doe all generally agree ; wee should finde , that in those propositions which without all controversie are universally received in the whole christian world , so much trueth is contained , as being joyned with holy obedience , may be sufficient to bring a man unto everlasting salvation . neither have we cause to doubt , but that as many as doe walke accorto this rule ( neither overthrowing that which they have builded by superinducing any damnable here●ies thereupon , nor otherwise vitiating their holy faith with a lewd and wicked conversation ) peace shall be upon them , and mercy , and upon the israel of god . the opinion of some famous divines of the french church . that which hath been the constant and earnest wish of all good men for these hundred yeares past , and which by all wise men hath been esteemed worthy to be purchased at any rate and with any paines though never so great ; this ( we heare , to the exceeding great joy of our hearts ) is at this day endeavoured by some worthy servants of christ ▪ with singular zeale , and not without good hopes of a happy successe : to wit , that the protestant churches which differ one from another about some points of religion , laying aside or at least moderating on both sides their over-tenacious adhering to their own opinions , may now at length be united and made up into one body . we being much joyed with this welcome newes , first of all we render all possible praise and thankesgiving to almighty god the giver of all good things , that he hath been pleased to put such good thoughts and intentions into the hearts of his servants ; and wee most earnestly beseech him , that his blessing may goe along with this good designe , & crowne it with successe : next , we returne many thanks to those our reverend and worthy brethren and fellow-ministers , who have put their hands to this worke ; and we doe highly applaud and admire their faithfulnesse , zeale , charity , and singular magnanimity & courage herein . what a brave and noble spirit does it argue in them , that they could once hope for an unity and peace of our churches in these desperate and distracted times ? or that they durst venter upon a matter of such difficulty , which had so often been attempted heretofore by men of great abilities , but could never be brought to passe ? what the event of this so great and good a designe will be , is in the sole power & pleasure of almightie god : but surely the very endeavouring and intending of so good a worke deserve's no litle commendation : for , the bare purpose or having in one's heart and thoughts matters of great concernment , and such as may make for the good of christ's church , is a great and good worke , & never faile's of its reward from our bountifull god : although there be good cause to hope , that the paines which learned men take hereabout shall even with men too have its fruit & effect . for , now that they have spent their spirits and heat of contention , & wearied themselves with long strife and variance , it is more than probable that they will now at last entertaine those counsells of peace which they have hitherto out of spleene and passion rejected and set light by . besides , that most sharp plowshare of god's judgement wherewith for almost these foureteene yeares he hath furrowed and plowed up the french and german churches , hath so subdued & broken up men's minds on each side , that never was there a more fit and seasonable opportunity for sowing and casting in the seeds of unity and peace , than now . wee cannot chuse therefore but greatly approve , commend , and admire the purposes and endeavours of those worthy men who have imployed their paines in so necessary a worke : but since we understand how that they are desirous to knowe more particularly what our opinion is of this whole businesse , let us proceed to set downe ( as breifly and plainly as we can ) our judgement herein . indeed it were much to be wished , that they who professe themselves christ's disciples and followers , would all think and speake alike of matters spirituall and divine ; perfectly joyned together in the same minde and in the same judgement , ( as s. paul exhorts his corinthians . ) but since there is so much weaknesse in man's understanding , and so great difficulty in points of divinity , that this perfect and absolute agreement betwixt pious men is a thing not to be had or hoped for in this world ; in the next place it were to be wished , that they would agree and be of the same beleife about the maine & principall heads of religion : and for other matters which are of lesse moment and use , and such as do not any way make either for holinesse of life , or comfort of men's consciences , & consequently doe not necessarily pertaine to christ's kingdome ( which consists in those two things ) that they would in such wise beleive them , as to beare with others who dissent frō them about such points . for as we see in civill & saecular matters , the best states-men are not alwaies of the same opinion concerning the affaires of the commonwealth ; so likewise in the church , so long as the summe and substance of religion is agreed upon & maintained , no matter though in some other points the judgements of the faithfull be various and different . that this is lawfull , both the thing it selfe loudly proclaimes it , and s. paul confirmes it ; who doe's not only permit but command us ( more than once ) to beare with such as differ from us in their opinions ▪ and 't is the common and generall opinion of all such divines as have been of any note and esteem in the church ever since our saviour christ's times downe to this present age . yet is not this so to be understood , as if all manner of differences in religion were to be tolerated : for even the same apostle denounceth an anathema against such as shall preach any other gospell than that which he had preached ; and the most moderate amongst the fathers of the christian church have alwaies constantly held , that we are to shunne and avoid the company of hereticks . for there bee some opinions of those men who differ about religion , which overthrow the very foundation of our salvation , & destroy either that piety or that charity which wee are commanded by god's word to practise towards god and men : such are the erroneous doctrines of romanists , who will have that religious worship given to creatures , which god hath reserved peculiar to himselfe ; who make our faith to rely upon the judgement and authority of men ; who severall waies overthrow the preistly office of jesus christ ; in a word , who have with their own inventions so stained and deformed the whole christian religion , that they have left no one part in it sound and untainted . such likewise are the opinions of socinians , who ( to let passe their other positions ) deny our lord and saviour christ jesus to be truely god : and if once you take away his divinity , it will necessarily follow , that either wee worship a creature , or else that we doe not worship the sonne of god ; both of which are manifestly repugnant to those trueths which are delivered to us in holy writ as absolutely necessary to salvation . we conceive therefore that no peace in way of religion can be had with these men , nor with any others who maintaine any errours of this nature , till they shall renounce these their private doctrines . but for those who hold some erroneous opinion which yet may consist with piety , & charity , and all christian duties belonging thereunto , we think ( as s. paul seeme's to have determined ) a communion may be held with them . wee may mildly admonish such , and when opportunity is offered , discreetly reprove and instruct them ; but to cast them out of the church , and ( for no other cause ) to curse and excommunicate them as men in a desperate and damnable estate , this ( in our opinion ) is neither fitting nor lawfull to be done . now to apply this to the matter in hand ▪ we conceive that to this latter sort all those controversies doe belong which are agitated amongst protestant divines , touching christ's presence in the sacramentall ●ignes , touching divine praedestination , and some few other points . for they doe agree in all such points as conduce either to piety towards god , or charity towards men ; they maintain on both sides , that the scriptures are of divine inspiration , that they are perfect , perspicuous , and authenticall ; they detest with one heart & mouth the tyranny , and pernitious doctrines of the pope , and they equally keep off from entertaining a communion with him ; they have the same sacraments ; they worship the same christ ; they professe the same righteousnesse and holinesse in this life , and they expect the same glory in the life to come : in a word , so great and so wonderfull an agreement is there betwixt them about all saving and necessary doctrines , that ( did not the history of their affaires , and those bitter contentions which have hitherto ( more is the pitty ) been fomented amongst them , witnesse the contrary ) there 's no man but would thinke they had a meeting at the beginning , and by common counsell & consent agreed upon the same confession of faith . in such a multitude of mysteries , who can chuse but admire that there should not be above one or two points wherein they did not fully agree ? for even about the eucharist , which is the maine matter of this woefull division , they both of them grant that 't is a sacrament not a sacrifice ; that it is to be eaten , not worshipped ; both the two kindes instituted by our saviour christ ( to wit , bread and wine ) are neither transubstantiated nor divided one from the other by either side ; they both acknowledge the same use and end of this holy rite , to wit the commemorating of christ's death , & the partaking of his body which was crucified , and of his blood which was shed for us : there is onely one thing about which they disagree , namely the manner how christ's body is given to us and received by us in that sacrament ; the thing is the same on both sides , onely the manner of it is divers . this difference , though it be but small , yet is it not ( wee confesse ) altogether of no moment : but that it should be of so great moment , as that it ought to make a breach of charity and affection amongst brethren , a duty so useful and necessary to the christian world , and so miraculously wrought amongst them by the hand of heaven , this we utterly deny . neither doe we alone deny it : to say nothing of our brethren in poland , and almost all the germans which hold with us , who ( as it is well knowne to all men ) ever did , and at this day doe make the same reckoning and account of that controversy as we but now did ; to say nothing likewise of those famous divines of both sides in saxony and brandenburge , who ( as we have been informed ) were lately of the very same opinion concerning these points , when they had fairely discussed them at lipswich , whither they were come with their princes . but one thing there is which we cannot here omit to mention , a matter perhaps not so well knowne to forraine nations , yet such a matter it is as we confidently beleive will be most welcome and acceptable to all good & peaceable men , to wit that the reformed churches here in france ( whereof there are good store ) have alwaies been of that same opinion touching these controversies , & they have given testimony of this their opinion , both heretofore sundry waies , and likewise now very lately by an expresse decree made in a generall synod held here at charenton neare paris in the yeare 1631. for when , upon occasion of a citizen of lions ( unto whose daughter a certaine young german of the augustane confession , as they call it , was a suiter ) it was questiond , how we are to account and esteeme of such as are commonly termed lutherans ; all the brethren which were there met , out of all the provinces of france , and sent thither from their several churches , did unanimously vote thus ; that seeing the churches of the augustane confession doe agree with the other reformed churches in all the principles and fundamentall points of true religion , and that in their discipline and forme of divine worship there is neither idolatry nor superstition : such of the faithfull of that confession as shall with the spirit of charity and in a truly peaceable way joyne themselves unto the publike assemblies of the churches in this kingdome , and desire to communicate with them , may , without the abjuration of their former opinions which they hold contrary to the beleife of these churches , be admitted to the holy table , contract marriages with the faithfull of our confession , and present themselves in the quality of godfathers to the children which shall be baptized ; upon their promise given to the consistory , that they will never solicite such children , directly or indirectly , against the doctrine beleived and professed in our churches , but shall content themselves with giving them instruction onely in those points wherein we all agree . we are not ignorant , how that many objections may be made against this decree by such as have a mind to contend & cavill : but such objections they are , most of them , as have but litle strength and validity in them , and such as can no way stand in comparison with those waighty reasons wherewith the christian faith and charity doe furnish us . it is not our purpose to insist on every particular ; onely in general , we think it not amisse to put men in minde of two things , which if they were observed with that care as it fitting , both sides perhaps would henceforth judge more mildly and charitably of each other than hitherto they have done . first then , speciall heed would be taken by us , that the assertions and opinions of private men , though doctors , though of never so great esteem and repute amongst their own men , be not father'd on that whole church wherein such men live , as the common and generally received doctrine of them all . for what can be imagined more unequall , than that one man's crime , or commendation , should be imputed to all ? and what by him hath been spoken well or ill , should be rewarded or punished in others ▪ who were so farre from deserving any such matter , as that many times such things are fastned on them as they never so much as once heard of from others , or once thought thereupon themselves . the generall doctrine of each severall church is laid downe and comprised in publike confessions , severall for each side ; their's ( namely the doctrine of the lutheran party ) in the augustane confession ( as they terme it ; ) that of the other side , in many severall confessions , diversly expressed according to the diversity of countries and kingdomes . from these are we to judge and esteeme what is held and maintained by both : seeing they doe all professe themselves to assent and adhere to these , and that they will live & dye in this faith . but ( for ought i know ) neither doe they so generally approve the writings of brentius or chemnitius , nor doe these so farre magni●ie piscator or beza , as if they would that whatsoever is affirmed by those men , should be admitted and acknowledged as the common and necessary faith of all christians . nay so farre are they both of them from this folly , that they themselves freely reprove and censure their own men , and mark out many passages in their writings , as different from the common and received doctrine of their church . whence it follow's , that the sayings of such men , whosoever they be , are unjustly , and ( to speake the most favourably of it ) preposterously fatherd on the whole church in which they lived . and yet notwithstanding , what else are all those tenents with which protestant divines cast one another in the teeth , with which they upbraid one another as if they were the publike and generall faults of the two adverse parts , and for which they so labour to draw one another into envy & contempt ? i say , what else are they but the private positions of some particular doctors on both sides , vented many times either in choler and passion , or out of a vehement zeale to maintaine their cause , when they were hard pressed & put to it either with the difficulty of the things themselves , or the subtilty of an acute adversary ; and so , spake rather out of necessity than judgement and premeditation . for truely so sound and untainted are the publike confessions of our churches on each side , that there is very litle and hardly any thing which either of them can finde wanting in the other's confession . our divines in germany doe commend the augustane confession ; and no doubt but our brethren the lutherans will in like manner approve of ours , for the farre greater part of it , would they but once be pleased to read it over impartially without passion and prejudice . certainly neither in that confession of theirs shall any man meet with that vbiquity of christ's body , which wee condemne in lutheranisme ; nor in this of ours , that stoicall fate so much objected against us . but a second fault there is , very frequent amongst men of both sides , and almost hereditary , which ought ( as we conceive ) with all care and diligence to bee shun'd and avoided in this businesse . namely , that they who maintaine any position , should not bee thought to hold whatsoever seemes to us to follow thereupon by the rules of disputation . for it often fall's out , that he who hold's a principle from which such a conclusion is inferred , may notwithstanding be utterly ignorant of that which is in ferred from his principle . for instance , he that first observed the loadstone to point towards the north pole , did not forth with perceive all the severall experiments that have been afterwards made from thence for the use and benefit of navigation : for conclusions lye hid and buried in their principles , nor are they deduced thence without some paines and study . he therefore who hold's some principle , and withall doth either not heed and regard it ; or else considers it , but with an intellect which is either dull or prepossessed with anger or affection or some other passion , this man , from that principle of his which hee understand's , doth not straightway understand whatsoever may be knowne and concluded from it . thus they who live in the papacy , having their mindes bewitched ( that i may so speake ) with the authority of their leaders , though they grant with us that the sinnes of men are most fully expiated by that sacrifice offered up by christ on the crosse , yet can they not hence conclude ( although it evidently follow hereupon ) that their sacrifice of the altar is vaine and superfluous . now as he who understand's some one trueth , is sometimes ignorant of other trueths which are consequent thereupon : so likewise he who hath some erroneous opinion , must not therefore be thought to hold and maintaine all the absurdities that may be inferred from it : for there 's the same account to bee made of consequences either way . thus tertullian of old , and many of the ancient fathers , taught that the humane soule is derived from the father to the sonne by way of propagation ; but that 't is mortall , which followes upon the former , this they were so farre from granting , that they did alwaies expressely deny it . as therefore wee doe not say that the papists doe therefore deny their sacrifice of the altar , because they grant ( as we doe ) the perfection and sufficiency of that sacrifice which was offered up by christ on the crosse , though in all good consequence this overthrowes that sacrifice of theirs : so neither doe we think that tertullian , & others of the same opinion touching the originall of man's soule , ought to be charged for holding the soule to be mortall , because this latter errour seeme's to be deducible from the former . now then how extreme faulty in this kinde divines of both sides have beene , who is there that see's not ? for we commonly charge our brethren ( the lutherans ) with eutychianisme , ( though they in the meane time deny and disclaime it , ) because this errour , as we think , follows upon their doctrine concerning the lord's supper ▪ they againe on the other side , stick not to charge us with i knowe not what monstrous opinions , as if we made god the author of all sin and wickednesse , ( assertions which we justly abhorre & tremble at , because they perswade themselves that this may be gathered from our doctrine about god's praedestination and providence . wee will not here dispute whether these things be rightly inferred yea or no from our severall tenents and opinions on both sides : it sufficeth , that whatsoever they be , whether justly or unjustly pin'd upon our opinions , they are denied by us both : nor can we ever be induced by any arguments whatsoever , to grant that they are agreeable and consonant to our faith . for so long as this is done ( as indeed it is , ) it is manifest from what hitherto hath been delivered , that neither can they without injustice and calumniation bee charged with eutychianisme , nor we with those monstrous and damnable opinions , although both these errours could by true & solid consequence be concluded from our severall positions , ( which yet neither side will ever confesse for their own part . ) seeing therefore that all or most of those doctrines which the one side taxeth in the other as pernicious and such as cannot consist with salvation , are but either the private opinions of some particular men or else but corollaries and conclusions violently wrested by force of argument out of their severall opinions , would but men ( as in reason they ought ) forbeare to father any thing on either side save onely that which their whole churches expresly owne and professe for their received opinions , it would be very easie to maintaine that all the dispute and controversie which is in agitation betwixt them , is such as may be tolerated , and that there is not any thing contained in the faith and doctrine of either side which overthrowe's salvation . now were but this once agreed upon and beleived on both sides , there would remaine litle or no difficulty in this whole businesse wherein worthy men doe at this present employ themselves , namely of setling peace and unity amongst our churches . for seeing there are but two waies possible of being reconciled ; either , that one side shall renounce their private opinions , and come over to the other , or else , that both sides shall joyne together , retaining their severall opinions , and by a mutuall condescending shall each of them tolerate that which they dislike in the other's doctrine , especially if it be such as cannot be altered without perill and dammage to a whole church ; the former of these two waies ( as we conceive ) is not now to be stood upon , whereof triall hath been heretofore made not onely without successe but with much danger & harme , as appeares sufficiently from those many disputations & conferences which have been held betwixt both sides during this whole age ; whereby hatred and & enmity hath been ingendred rather than extinguished , and the number of controversies rather increased than diminished . wee must therefore betake our selves to that other way of being reconciled , and in it must we employ all our paines and cares & studies , as being indeed both the onlyeasie and lawfull way , yea and necessary too in our judgement . and that wee may at length attaine unto this , it would not be amisse ( as we conceive ) to proceed after this manner and method ; first , wee must endeavour that a kinde of truce and cessation from our st●ifes & contentions may be agreed upon and enjoyned the divines of both sides , and that they be stirred up and exhorted to take this whole businesse into consideration : this being obtained , in the next place speciall diligence must be used , that after a meeke , freindly , and most persuasive manner it be made appeare to all , that we are not at variance about any fundamentall point of christian religion , or such wherein men may not safely be of either opinion without hazarding their salvation : and here men must be very carefull that they refraine from all intricate questions , and trifling disputes , ( such wherein the schoolemen have spent so much paines , mincing and mangling every thing into i know not how many peices , & then handling every peice severally , ) which serve for no other end save onely to torture & torment mens mindes , but no way make for edification . would but god be pleased so farre to prosper these endeavours as that thus much may be once brought to passe , wee make no doubt but every man would then readily wish for this much-desired communion , which none ever shunn'd or refused but out of a kinde of religion and conscience , conceiving it unlawfull to entertaine a communion with any that are not of the same beleife and opinion with themselves : so soone as men on both sides shall be wrought off from this superstitious conceit , they will gladly run and rush ( as it were ) into one anothers armes and embraces . for it cannot be imagined that there is any man , either of the one side or the other , so stupid & void of all reason & & religion , but knows how foul & scandalous a thing , how hurtfull to both sides , how dangerous and pernitious to the whole christian world this schisme is which hath hitherto divided and distracted us ; on the other side , how sweet , how beneficiall , both to our selves & all others , unity and peace would be , so it might be had without losse of faith and salvation . and truely the way to setle this unity ( were we but once come to that ) is plaine and easie . for seeing we doe both of us ( by god's grace ) equally acknowledge and beleive the gospell of our lord jesus christ penned by his disciples ; and seeing we confesse , that whatsoever is of necessity for salvation to be beleived or done by us , it is all clearely and plainly laid downe in this gospell , what hinder's why we may not joyntly confirme and ratify those articles wherein we both agree ? & for those other points about which wee differ , wee may expresse them in such words and phrases as the sacred scriptures afford us , and not suffer our men to enquire any further , or contest about thē . for if it be true which we both confesse , that all those heavenly mysteries which must necessarily be knowne by us , are clearely revealed in god's word , doubtles then we may content our selves with so much as the scripture has delivered , and wee may safely forgoe all other points wherein the scripture is silent . let therefore all the heads of matters in dispute amongst us be laid downe and expressed in a certaine and set forme , such as may give satisfaction to both parties , made up wholly ( if it be possible ) of scripture-words : and let no man require from his brother any more besides it : if any man have attained to a further degree of knowledge , let him keep his knowledge to himselfe ; and let him not despise the weaknesse and simplicity of others who have not made so great a progresse in knowledge as himselfe . as for rites and ceremonies wherein the forme of divine worship and the churche's discipline are contained , we conceive it fit that every church should be left to her owne judgement and liberty herein , and that no innovation be made about such matters . hereafter , if it shall please god , when time shall have confirmed and strengthened this union , there may be compiled , by the joynt consent and advice of all , a common liturgy ; which would be both a token and bond of peace . for the present , we shall think our paines well bestowed , if at this first attempt we can prevaile with both sides to tolerate mutually out of christian charity such differences of opinion as are betwixt us either in doctrine or discipline ( which truely are but small , & altogether unworthy to occasion such a rupture and breach betwixt us , ) and so at length to acknowledge one another to be ( as indeed we are ) brethren in the lord . thus much we thought good to speak in breife touching this matter , that our reverend brethren , who are well affected to the publike peace , may understand how ready & willing wee are to concurre with them in this pious and christian worke . and though our meane abilities and the present state and condition of our affaires be such , as that wee cannot performe such service in it as is meet and requisite , yet shall our earnest prayers alwaies accompany the labours and endeavours of those reverend men who are or shall be employed therein : and we shall account that day most happy , wherein we shall behold brethren ( having buried all strifes and contentions ) joyne hands and hearts , and dwell together in the same jerusalem ; by this fast and firme communion , anticipating ( as it were ) & foreacting here upon earth that everlasting unity and concord which we shall hereafter enjoy in heaven . amen . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a53386e-260 c. 8. v. 19. ephes. 4. 15. rom. 12. 14. joh. 17. 21. act. 4. 32. ho●p histor. sacr. ann. 15 29. idem ann. 1537 ▪ ibid. harm. confes. par . 1. & 2. in confess . polon. 1. chron. 22. 16. mat 23. c. 4. v. 5. 2. cor. 6. 16. 〈…〉 a● 〈…〉 . ad constant . august . tit. 1. 3. bucer . rom. 14. 1. rom. 15. 1. magdeburg . lib. 2. cap. 7. august . de unitate eccl. c. 1● . a in epist. ad luther . b contra rober . atringen & alibi . hosp : in . hist. sacr. pag 144 ad an. 153 6. c ibid. coiloq . momp. . pag 16. 〈…〉 . ann. 15●● p. 145. math. 18. joh. 1335. 1. cor. 3. 12. osiand . antist. pag. 75. in ant●st . pag ▪ 91. gal. 2. 9 ▪ act. 7. 16 psal. 122 9. in antist. pag. 7 4. o● . 2. tit. 1. 3. epist ad stephen & ad iuhaian praef. ad co●●il . carthag . v●l . august . de b●p● . lib. 2 cap 4 5. epiph. har 42. & 70. n●zian orat. 30. ●●st . ●u●lib 4 cap. 30. orat. 3. de pa. ● in orat. unum esse christ●m notes for div a53386e-3290 calvi● . epist. 57. bulling . calvin . tract. 2. de●ens . de sacra●… c●n● . melanchthon calvino , inter epistola● calvini , 187. iob. sturmius ep. ●d prin● . fredet●i●ter calvini ep. 304. calvin . epist. 240. iacob . andreae . & epist. 32. farello . c●l●i● ▪ ●pi 〈…〉 mart●●●●●●al●●●●o 〈…〉 t●s . 〈…〉 ● . 〈…〉 . a ep. sturm●● ad ●r●d . prin●●●t●r epist. ●al●in . 304. b ●●●●h . 〈…〉 de c●●● domini con●●ss●● magistrat . a ●●●tur 〈…〉 xtat ●●ter 〈…〉 epist. ●04 . & epist. 45 ●●●●●● su●tz●r . ib. b calvin . epist 32. ●ar●●●● . c melan●●● . epist. calvin . ●●●●●ter ep. 187. calv. opusc. defens . 2 ▪ de sacram. c●…nae this is the title of that confession . g●i● de g● 〈…〉 li●●●t●●● d● 〈…〉 crea 〈…〉 ‑ 〈…〉 notes for div a53386e-5830 * zanch. iudici● de di●●idio c●●● in fine miscella●●o●u●● quod idem pr●batur a ●uinglio i●i●e a citate . ●●d . ●tiam f●ild●um nostratem ▪ in lib. de eccles. & appendi●e . ●●d lib. ● de eccl●s●● . c. 35. & 42. & app●nd part . ● ▪ respons ▪ ad secundum capu● hi●gonii . ●●●●●●a● citantur p●● . m●●a● l. cai●tan 〈…〉 these heads 〈…〉 granted on bo●h sides in this conscienc● . notes for div a53386e-6630 g●l 6 1● . notes for div a53386e-6790 〈…〉 15. 1. 〈…〉 3. 15. reflections on mr. varillas's history of the revolutions that have happned in europe in matters of religion and more particularly on his ninth book that relates to england / by g. burnet ... burnet, gilbert, 1643-1715. 1686 approx. 154 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 101 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a30405 wing b5852 estc r13985 12390080 ocm 12390080 60976 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a30405) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 60976) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 272:1) reflections on mr. varillas's history of the revolutions that have happned in europe in matters of religion and more particularly on his ninth book that relates to england / by g. burnet ... burnet, gilbert, 1643-1715. 203, [1] p. printed for p. savouret ..., amsterdam : 1686. pages 168-203 photographed from british library copy and inserted at the end. errata: p. 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ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng varillas, -monsieur -(antoine), 1624-1696. -histoire des revolutions arrivées dans l'europe en matiere de religion. reformation -england. europe -church history. europe -history -1517-1648. great britain -religion -17th century. 2003-10 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-10 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-11 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2003-11 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-12 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion reflections on mr. varillas's history of the revolutions that have happned in europe in matters of religion . and more particularly on his ninth book that relates to england . by g. burnet , d. d. amsterdam , printed for p. savouret in the warmoes-street near the dam. 1686. reflections on mr. varillas's history of the revolutions that have happned in europe in matters of religion , and more particularly on his 9 th book that relates to england . mr . varillas has within a few years given the world so many-books of history , and these have been so much read and so well received , that it seems he thinks he is now so far possessed of the esteem of the age , that he may venture to impose upon it the falsest coyn that can be struck , not doubting but that the name varillas stampt upon it will make it pass current , and this being a time in which some have thought that they might doe whatsoever they pleased against those of the religion , he it seems thinks he may likewise say whatsoever he pleased against them , that so there may be a due proportion between the injuries that he does them with his pen , and those that others make them feel with severer tools , and perhaps he thought the severities that are now exercised upon them , are so contrary to that tenderness with which the humane nature , not to say the christian religion , is apt to inspire all that are not transported with such violent passions that they drown the motions of our bowels towards the miserable , that nothing could divert the world from those merciful inclinations but the dressing up the first beginnings of the reformation in such odious representations as might possess the age with so much fury against them , that none of the miseries that they suffer , might create the least compassion for them . it is true , princes have their prerogatives with which they take great liberties as their several passions are excited and dextrously managed , the desire of glory mixing with a heat of blood , at one time can produce a w●r , as terrible in its consequences , as it was injustifiable in its first beginnings , and the same ambition mixing with a superstitious disposition of mind , and working upon colder blood , can at another time produce a violation of edicts that have been solemnly sworn to , and often confirmed , and accompany that with a sequel of severities , that are more easily lamented than expressed ; yet an humble regard to the sublime character of a crown'd head lays a restraint on those groans , which we would rather stifle than give them their full scope , least the language of our sorrows look like an accusing of those , whom , after all that our brethren have suffered at their hands , we would still force our selves to reverence , and therfore we choose rather to support our grief , than to vent it at their cost . but small scriblers , who have set a price upon their pens , and sacrifice our reputation , that they may merite a pension at the hands of the chief instruments of our brethrens sufferings , are not to look for such respect : he that fights against the laws of war ought to expect no quarter when he is taken . a historian that favours his own side , is to be forgiven , thô he puts a little too much life in his colours , when he sets out the best sides of his party , and the worst of those from whom he disfers : and if he but slightly touches the failings of his friends , and severely aggravates those of the other side , thô in this he departs from the laws of an exact historian , yet this biass is so natural , that if it lessens the credit of the writer , yet it does not blacken him , but if he has no regard either to truth or decency , if he gives his imagination a full scope to invent , and his pen all the liberties of foul language , he ought not to think it strange , if others take some pains to expose him to the world. and thô their conscience and religion obliges them to take other measures with relation to truth , and their breeding engages them to a strict modesty of stile , yet if the things that are said are as severe as they are true , and as wounding as they may appear soft , it is nothing but what a zeal for truth , and an indignation at so much ill-managed injustice draws from them . it is not to be denied that mr. varillas has an art of writing that is entertaining he pretends to discover many secrets to give pictures of men to the life , and to interweave the histories that he relates with a thread of politiques that is very agreable , only this appears to be overdone , and those who have had much practice in humane affairs see that the conduct of the world is not so steady and so regular a thing as he loves to represent it , unlookt for accidents , the caprices of some tempers , the secrets of amours and jealousies , with other particular passions are the true sources of almost all that is transacted in the world ; even interest it self does not always govern mankind , but humour and passion have their turns , and oft times the largest share in humane affairs . so that i ever thought that his books had too much of the air of a romance , and seemed too fine to be true . he does indeed now and then , to maintain his reputation in his reader 's mind , vouch some letter or narrative , but he neither tells whither it is in print , or in manuscript , or where he had it , and where others may find it : so this way of citation looked suspitious , yet i could not easily take up such hard thoughts of him as to imagine , that all this was his own invention : but being in paris last summer , i had the good fortune to become acquainted with some men of great probity , and that had particularly applied themselves to examine the history of france with great exactness ; they were of the church of rome , and seemed to have no other dislike at mr. varillas , but that which was occasioned by the liberty , that he had given himself , to writ his own imaginations for true histories they assured me there was no regard to be had to any thing that he writ , that he had gathered together many little stories , which he knit together as he pleased , and that without any good authority : and they told me that the greatest number of the pieces he cited were to be found now here but in his own fancy . in a word , they spoke of all his books with a sharpness of stile , and a degree of contempt , that i will not repeat , least i seem to come too near his forms of speech , which are the worst patterns that one can follow . i found he was generally so much decried in paris , that he has reason to say in his preface , that when the archbishop of paris thought on him , all the world had abandoned him , for i did not find any man under a more universal contempt than he was , and the esteem in which his works were held in forreign parts far beyond what was paied them in france , was imputed to his method of writing , that wants none of the beauties of history except that of truth , and to the ignorance in which strangers live as to the particulars of their history . it is true , at last he has found a patron and a pension , and now he has given us an essay of his merits ; but if this work is examined severely , he will very probably soon lose his appointments ; since mercenary pens are seldom paied longer than they can be useful . here one finds so much occasion for censure , that whereas in other books one must run up and down to find matter for a critical judgment , here it occurs so copiously that a man must take care not to surfeit his reader with too much of it ; and therefore must choose out the more remarkable errours and there are even so many of these , that it is to be feared that the world will not think him not his writings worth the time and the pains that must be bestowed on them . mr. maimbourg has set a pattern to the world , that thô few wil care to imitate , yet it has taken so much with the present age , that it is no light indication of its degeneracy , when surch books are so much read and sold , in which the writer seems to have so broken loose from all the common measures either of honesty or shame , that one would wonder of what composition he were made , if they did not know that he has lived 50 ▪ years the in iesuite order : for as he has no regard to truth , or likelyhood in what he writs , so he seems to be proof against the evidentest discoveries of his prevarications that are possible ; and when they are laid open in a manner capable of making any man besides himself to blush , he neither has the conscience to confess his errours , nor the sense of honour to justify himself : but he finds out still new matter to writ on , and a new stock of champaigne wine , as i have been told , that he has oft said , to make his blood boil till he has spoild an other piece of history ; and he thinks a scornfull period or two in a preface is enough to carry off all the shame to which his errours ought to condemn him . he has also the impudence to dedicate his books to the king , and the world is still willing to be cosened by him . this trade has succeeded so well with him , that it seems mr. varillas vies with him in it , and as he has the chaster stile , and the more natural way of misleading his reader , so he has resolved not to be behind him in a bold quality that i love not to set down by its proper name . but thô mr. varillas has the art to refine upon the pattern that mr. maimbourg set him , yet mr. maimbourg is the author of the invention , and therefore he deserves the better pension . history is a sort of trade in which false coyn and false weights are more criminal than in other matters ; because the errour may go further and run longer : thô these authors colour their copper too slightly to make it keep its credit long . if men think there are degrees of lying , then certainly those that are the most loudly told , that wound the deepest , that are told with the best grace , and that are transmitted to posterity under the deceitful colours of truth , have the blackest guilt ; but some men have arrived at equal degrees in hardning their consciences and in steeling their forheads , and are without the reach either of inward remorses or publick discoveries ; so that as augustus fancied there was a charm in the pillour of a roman , that died hugely indebted , since without an extraordinary saporiferous composition he could not fancy how such a man could sleep securely ; so if humane nature did not often produce some very irregular individuals , a man that feels the authority that truth and modesty have ever a pure mind , can not easily imagine by what secret others can quite extinguish those inclinations which he finds are so prevalent in himself . but i will now by mr. varillas's leave take the liberty to set before him some of his most conspicuous errours , and thô i do not expect much sincerity from himself , yet i hope the world will be juster than he has shewed himself to be . mr. varillas begins his history with a view of the progress of that which he calls heresy , in a prophetick stile , setting , forth what effects it was to produce , as if he were foretelling what was to fall out , and that for 11. pages ( according to the impression of amsterdam ) this has so little of the air of a historian , and is so full of the figures of a declaimer , that it looks liker the strain of a heated and angry fryer , than of a grave and serious writer of history , who ought to be always in cold blood , and ought not to let the heats of a vitious rhetorick transport him . but this is so like one of the forced raptures of some missionary , that one would think it was writ either by one of them , or for one of them . it is much a safer thing to prophecy concerning matters that are past , than concerning those that are to come , and one is less in danger of committing errours ; yet when heat enters into matters of history , and meets with so vast a deal of ignorance as is that of mr. varillas , no wonder if it carries him into great errours . if mr. varillas had gathered the history of the last age out of any books or out of those letters tha● he so often vouches , he could not have said that edward th● 6th's tutor or governour was the duke of northumberland , since there is not any one book writ concerning that time , that does not shew the contrary . the duke of somerset was his governour , and for the duke of northumberland , thô the last two years of that reign , in which that king was past the age of tutelage , he bore the chief sway of affairs , yet he had neither the character of the king's tutor or governour , nor any other whatsoever , but only that of a privy councellour , that was much considered by him , and he at his death professed that he had been always a catholick in his heart , so that his pretending to be of the reformed religion to serve his interests , shews that he belongs no more to our church , than the now forced converts belong to that of rome . in the same page he says that mary queen of scotland did by her bastard brother's persuasions marry a single gentleman , and on the margent he gives his name henry d' arley ; this is a new proof how little he knows the books of the last age. this henry whom he calls d' arley was henry lord darly , eldest son to the earl of lenox , which was one of the chief families of scotland , and a branch of the family of the stewarts . it is true it came off from it before the crown came into it by mariage , yet the grandfather of this henry had matched with one that was very near the crown , and cosen german to k. iames the 4th's and sister to hamilton earl ; of , aran this lord darly's mother was also uterine sister to k. iames the 5. being the daughter to the queen dowager of scotland that was k. henry the 8th's sister , who by her second mariage with the earl of angus ( dowglass ) had lady isabel dowglass , who was bred in the court of england , and whom k. henry the 8. maried to the earl of lennox , that had by her this lord darly , who as he was the queen of scotland's cosin german , was also the next heir to the crown of england after her , and might have been a dangerous competitour to her in that succession , having been born and bred in england , so that this mariage was so far from making her contemptible to her subjects , that it was considered as the wisest act of her life : and mr. var. could not imagine any thing more honourable to the earl of morny's memory , than to make him the adviser of so wise a choice . it is no wonder to see mr. var. make so bold with meaner persons , when he takes so much liberty wiht the royal family of england , as to stain their descent , for which if the consideration of the crowns they wear , did not restrain him , yet the particular regard to the king that now reigns , ought to have taught him so much respect as not to have ventured to blot his scutcheon so far as to call his great grandfather a single gentleman and if he had payd the respect he owed to the memory of that unfortunate princess , he had no● enlarged so much on her story , but i know what is due to the memory of a crowned head , even when it is laid in ashes , and thô he makes an easy weakness to be her prevailing character , upon which he would discharge all her misfortunes , this picture is so different from the truth that she was certainly one of the wittiest and highest spirited women that ever lived . but it seems mr. varillas has pretended to some pension from the crown of england , and in revenge for the disappointment he has resolved to debase the race all he can . here he affords our kings the honour to be descended at least from a gentleman , thô one of the ordin ariest sort ; but upon another occasion he is not so liberal , for in his history he says that henry the 8th had reasons to desire the mariage of his bastard son the duke of richmond with his daughter mary , that were too well known , for libels had been spread over all europe , reproaching him that his great grandfather was not a gentleman , but that by his credit at court , and by the vast riches that he had acquired , he had obtained leave to marry a daughter of the family of the plantaganets , that was then 16. degrees distant from the crown , and yet by that means his grand-child came to reign ; upon which he makes a long speculation concerning the king's reflections on that matter , and the reasons that restrained him from writing on that subject , as if it were an ordinary thing for princes to become their own heralds . he also tells us how he comforted himself by the remembrance of the meanness of arbaces k. of persia , that was the son of a locksmith , whose posterity had reigned so long , and with so much glory , and therefore he says he designed to marry his natural son and his daughter together . here is such a mixture of impertinencies , that it is not easy to know at what one is to begin , and if there were but this one period , it is enough to let the world see , how incapable mr. varillas is of writing history . i shall not in this place shew the falsehood of that imputation on henry the 8th , that he designed this incestuous match , for that will come in more property upon another occasion ; only if his birth was defective on his great grandfathers side , it was an odd method for the correcting of it , to think of adding a new blot , and of bringing a bastard into the 5th succession ; so the reason is as foolish as the matter of fact is false , and the ignorance that mr. var. shews here is the more remarkable , because this matter belongs to the most extraordinary transaction that is in the whole french history , in which he pretends to be so conversant . i need not say any more to prove the tudors to be gentlemen , but to tell that they are welshmen , of the race of the ancient britons , who do all pretend to the highest birth of any in the english nation , and do run up their pedigrees to iulius cesar's time ; among whom is the race of the the ap theodore's or the sons of theodore , that by a corruption of some ages were called tudors : but knows mr. varillas so little of the french history , as to have forgot that the daughter of france , that was maried to henry the 5th of england , in whose right both henry the 5th , and her son henry the sixth were crowned kings of france in paris , did after king henry the 5th's death marry owen tudor , by whom she had 3. sons the two eldest were made the earls of richmont and pembroke , being the kings uterine brothers , and the next heirs to that title , that he claimed to the crown of france , in the right of his mother ( which i am far from thinking was a good one . ) this being the case , it was no extraordinary thing for a man of the earl of richmont's rank to marry a lady that was then at such a distance from the crown , thô it was only in the 6th and not the 16th degree ; but i do not insist on this , because it may be only the fault of the printer , and i will not descend to a doubtful fault , when i have such material ones in my way . i know there are a sort of men that are much more ashamed when their ignorance is discovered , than when their other vices are laid open , since degenerate minds are more jealous of the reputation of their understanding , than of their honour . and as mr. varillas is very like to be of this temper , so if a simpathy with mr. maimbourg has not wrought him up to the like pitch of assurance ▪ such discoveries as these ought to affect him a little ; and here a man is apt to lose his patience , when he finds such a scribler pretend to defame the noblest blood in the world . there is nothing else in the first prophetick rhapsody that relates to our matters , so i was inclined to go from hence to a more particular enquiry into our english affairs , only the ignorance that he discovers in the next paragraph is so surprising that i will bestow a short remark on it . he says , that the switzers were so prevailed on by this pretext , that their separating themselves from the roman communion was the best expedient to preserve them from falling under the dominion of the house of austria ( thô it is certain they were then in no sort of fear of that ) that the four chief cantons were seduced in less than a years time ; but that the seven little cantons continued in the belief of their fathers , and the two midle sised cantons tollerated equally both the religions . one would have thought that a man that had pretended to the name of a historian , would have at least begun his studies with some small tast of cosmography , and would have taken some pains to know the map ; and as the switzers are in the neighbourhood of france , so they have been so long the allies of that crown , that the ignorance of the importance of the cantons is a fault in one that pretends to be such an illuminated historian , that deserves a worse correction than i think fit to give it . to reckon basle and shaff housen among the great cantons , and lucern among the small cantons , solohern and fribourg being also so considerable that some reckon them with the great cantons ; and to put glaris and appeuzel in a superiour order to them that are among the smallest of the least is such a complication of errours that it is not easy to imagine how he had the luck to fetch in so many into one period . but this is not all the ignorance that is in it ; for whereas he pretends , that the four cantons , that received the reformation did it in less than a year , this is so false that zwinglius having begun to preach the reformation in the year 1519. the whole matter was examined in a course of several years , and at last zurich received the reformation in the year 1525. bern three years after in the year 1528. and basle a year after in the year 1529. as for schaff house i must confess my ignorance , but there was at least 10 years interval in this matter ; and if lucern is not so much in his favour , because it is the residence of the spanish ambassadour , yet i cannot imagine what has made him degrade solohern into the number of the small cantons , which is the residence of the french ambassadour , and is reckoned by many among the greater . but it is likely that he knew nothing of all this matter , except by report , and perhaps he thought the period would run smoother to range the cantons thus in the great , in the small , and the midle-sised cantons , and that it would also reflect on the reformation as a precipitated change to say that 4 cantons turnd in one year . but thô impertinence is a fault scarce to be named , when one has so many of a more criminal nature in his way , yet such as are more signal and more advantageously situated for the reader 's eye deserve to be viewed in our passage , with the scorn that they deserve . mr. varillas begins his 3. book which opens the progress of luther's affairs with a preamble of 38. pages , in which he sets out the state of europe at that time , so copiously and with so little judgement , that he bestows 14. pages on the conquests that selim the turk had made , and on his defeat of the mamelucks . this whole tedious ramble signifies nothing to luther's matters ; but in short it was a secret to swell the volume , and to raise the price of the book , as well as it must lessen the price of the author , who shews , how little he understands where he ought to place his digressions . what notions does that view of every state of europe give the world , that doe any way prepare the readers mind ; for what was to come after , unless it be that mr. var. being to present a piece of as arrant poëtry as any that ever possessed the stage , he thought it necessary to fill it at first with many actors , and to make a great appearance , thô none of them were to act any part in his play ? but since he will needs be writing , thô he understands not the common-elements , i will take the pains for once to instruct him a little how he ought to have made this introduction , since he it seems was resolved to begin with one . he ought then to have open'd the state of europe with relation to religion and learning ; he to have shewed what scandals the popes and the court of rome had given , what was the state of the secular clergy , the ignorance , irregularity , and vices of the bishops , and curates ; what were the ●isorders and dissolutions of the monastick orders , both of those that were endowed and of the mendicants . he ought to have shewed in what sort of studies they imploied their time , and with what sort of sermons they entertained the people : and to this he ought to have added somewhat of the state of the universities of europe ; and of the beginnings of learning that were then arising . he ought to have shewed the different interests , in which the several nations of europe were engaged , after the times of the councils of constance and basle ; and to this he might have added the state of the courts of europe with relation to religion , upon all which he might have found matter for a long , and a much more pertinent introduction . and to conclude , he ought to have told the dispositions , in which the peoples minds were , as to those matters : and if he would needs make a vain shew of his faculty of telling of tales , he might have set out the state of the eastern churches , after the treaty at the council of florence , and of its effects ; of the ruine of those churches ; and of the ignorance , as well as misery to which they were reduced by the rigour of the mahometan yoke . it is true this was not a necessary preliminary to the bringing luther on the stage , but it had been much less impertinent , than a long recital of sultan selim's conquests . but i am caried too far , and hereafter i will confine my self to that , which does more immediatly belong to me . he begins that part of his advertisement , that relates to the affairs of england , with a sort of an apophthegme worthy of him : he says , it is without comparison more difficult to be exactly true in matters of religion , than in other matters ; since in those others , it is only interest and passion that make men lie ; but in matters of religion conscience does so entirely conquer all the powers of the soul , and reduces them to such a slavery , that it forces a man to write , that which it dictates , without troubling himself to examine whither it is true or false . here is such a view of his notion of religion , that how false soever this proposition is in it self , yet it gives us a true light of his ideas of religion . good god shall that principle , which does elevate , and illuminate our natures , be considered as a more powerful depravation of them , than that which flows either from interest or passion ? shall that which is the image of the god of truth , and that reduces the soul to a chast purity of spirit , be made the author of the enslaving of all our powers , and the emancipating us from all scrupulosity concerning truth or falsehood ? this perhaps is the character of mr. varillas's religion , thô those that know him well assure me , that religion makes very little impression on him ; and if that is true , then his apophthegme fails in himself , since the interest of a pension , and the passion of making himself acceptable in the present time , have as entirely freed him from all regard to truth , as ever any false principle of religion did an enraged zealot . it is matter of horrour to see religion , and conscience set up as the violentest corrupters of truth : but we know out of what school this has sprung , and it seems mr. varillas has so devoted himself to the order of the jesuites , that he is resolved to speak aloud , that which they more prudently think fit to whisper in secret , and indeed if we may judge of him by this character , that he gives of religion , we must conclude him to be entirely possessed with it , since never man seem'd to be less solicitous , than he is , concerning the truth , or falsehood of the things , that hoavers . he accuses me of favouring my own side too much , and that if i confess some of king henry's faults , it is only that i may have an occasion to excuse the wretched cranmer . this is some intimation , as if he had read my book , but i doe not believe he has done it : for thô i have no great opinion either of his vertue , or of his understanding ; yet i doe not think , he is so forsaken of common-sense , and of all regard to his reputation , as to have adventured to have advanced so many notorious falsehoods , if he had seen upon what authentical grounds i had so exposed them , that i doe not think it possible even for mr. maimbourg himself after all his 50 years noviciat , to arrive at a confidence able to maintain them any longer , if he had once read my book , and what i had writ was at least so important , that he ought to have weakned the credit of my history , by some more evident proofs , than that of saying barely , that i was extreamly partial to my own side . my book was so much read , and so favourably spoken of in france these three years past , that in common decency he ought to have alledged somewhat , to have justified his censure ; but this manner of writing was more easy , as well as more imperious . and if a large volume of history supported with the most authentick proofs , that has ever yet perhaps accompanied any book of that sort , is to be thus shaken off , it is a vain thing to write books for men of mr. varillas's temper . this had been more pertinent , if he had voucht for it a report , which was so spread over paris , that i had received advices of it from several hands , of a design in which , as was reported , a clergy-man was engaged that has many excellent qualities , to which mr. varillas seems to be a great stranger , for he has both great application , and much sincerity . he has searcht with great exactness that vast collection of mss. that relate to the last age , which are laid up in the king's library , and he had found so many things relating to england , that he intended to publish a volume of memoires relating to our affairs : he had also said , that in some things he would enlarge himself more copiously than i had done , and that in other things he must differ from me . matters generally grow bigger by being oft told , so this was given out as a design to write a counter-history , which should overthrow all the credit that my work had got . but upon my coming to paris , i found some sincere enquirers into truth , and who by consequence are men that have no value for mr. varillas , who intended to bring us together that we might in an amicable manner reason the matter be foresome of our common friends ▪ and both of us seemed to be so well disposed to sacrifice all to truth , that two persons of such eminence , that they can receive no honour by the most advantageous characters that i can give them , who were mr. thevenot and mr. auzont , did procure us a meeting in the king's library , and in their presence . in which the abbot as he discovered a vast memory , great exactness and much sincerity , so he confessed that he had no exceptions to the main parts of my history ; he mentioned some things of less moment , in all which i gave not only our two learned arbiters , but even himself full satisfaction , so that i quickly perceived i had to doe with a man of honour . he insisted most on the judgment of the sorbonne against k. henry's mariage , which is not in their registers . but i was certainly informed by a dr. of the sorbonne that their registers are extreamly defective , and that many of their books are lost . he alledged a letter to k. henry that he had seen , telling him , that it was to be feared that he might be displeased with the decision of the sorbonne , and that it might doe him more hurt than good , which letter bearing s after the decision that i have printed , does not seem to agree with it . to this i answered , that all the other decisions of universities being given simply in the king's favours , and that of the sorbonne bearing only , that the majority had declared for him , this left ablot upon the matter , since when the opposition is inconsiderable , decisions are given in the name of the whole body ; but the mention of the majority imported , that there was a great opposition made , which , thô it was not supported by a number equal to the other , yet was so considerable , as to lessen very much the credit of the decision . to this i added , that k. henry's printing this the year after it was given , and none ever accusing that piece of forgery , card. pool on the contrary acknowledging that he was in paris when it was obtained , these were undeniable evidences of its genuinness , to which he answered by a hearty acknowledgment , that he had seen another letter , in which the detail of the whole proceeding of the sorbonne is set down ; and , as i remember , there were but one or two more than the majority , that opined on the king's side ; but the rest were in different classes . some suspended their opinions : others , thô they condemned the mariage , yet did not think it could be broken , since it was once made : and some were positively of the pope's side . in end , after some hours discours , in which all the company was fully satisfied with the answers that i gave , he concluded , that as he had seen many more letters relating to that matter than i had done , so if i thought fit , he would furnish me with a volume of authentical proofs for what i had writ , greater than that which i had already printed . and these were the letters of the french ambassadours , that were in king henry the 8th's court , that are in the king's library ; but i did not stay long enough in paris to procure this . now what those letters of cardinal bellays are , upon which mr. varillas pretends to found his relation , i cannot imagine . for as he came not to act in this matter till the last step of it ; so his letters cannot carry any long series of this affair in them , and they must be far from giving those long excursions , into which mr. varillas always delights to wonder . and , as i remember , i was in particular told , that those letters were in the king's library , and so , since all that was there , agreed with my history , this must pass among those hardy citations of authors , that mr. varillas is apt to make , to give credit to his inventions . he flourishes a little to shew some small reading , but he is as unhappy in that , as in other things . he mentions cambden , as having writ the history of that revolution with some more moderation , than he is pleased to allow me ; but he says , he does so constantly favour the calvinists , in prejudice of those that he calls catholicks , that one needs only read the first page , that turns up to him , in any part of his history , to be convinced of it . this is a very good proof that mr. varillas never opened any one page of cambden ; since he does not write of that revolution . for he begins his history with q. elisabeth's reign , and says no more of what went before her time , than what amounts to a very short hint of her birth and education , and a general introduction into her reign ; and that history is writ with so much judgment and impartiality , that as it acquired the author the friendship and esteem of that eminent historian mr. du thou ; so he after cambden's death published the second volume , from the manuscript that the author had sent him . if the discovery of a great many rebellions and conspiracies against the person of that famous queen is that , which disgusts mr. varillas at that history , it is because his religion has so enslaved his conscience , that he is so little concerned in truth or falsehood , as not to be able to endure one of the gravest writers , that this age has produced , because he could not avoid the recital of those many crimes , that some of the men of mr. varillas's principles as to religion were not afraid to commit . after this he mentions another of our historians , whom he calls dr. morton , and to make his reader know that he is acquainted with the history of his life , he tells us he was afterwards a bishop ; but this is one of the authors of his invention , for thô we had a doctor morton , that was bishop of durham , and that died about 30 years ago ; yet he writ no history . by the character that mr. varillas gives this pretended author , that he was more moderate than cambden , i fancy he is mistaken in the name , and that he would say dr. heylin , thô this name and morton have no affinity ; but heylin was no bishop : it is true , dr. heylin has writ so moderately , that some have been severe upon him for it ; but i will make no other reflections on this , unless it be to shew the slightness of mr. varillas's way of writing , who it is likely had heard one talk at the same time both concerning dr. morton and dr. heylin , and he in his assuming way , pretends upon this to give a character of that history , putting the name morton for heylin ; but he never read a word of dr. heylin , thô in his daring way , he pretends to give his character ; and repents himself of the praise of moderation that he had given in preference to cambden , and sets it out as an artifice , since whereas cambden blames always the pretended catholicks without any mitigations , morton in blaming them counterfeits some pity for them , that is to say , he had some degrees of mr. varillas's character of religion . but dr. heylin's history being writ only in english , and it having never been translated either into latin or french , mr. varillas cannot give a character of it from his own knowledg . from our side he goes to the writers of the roman side , and begins with another essay of his exactness to his principles of religion . for he says , sanders writ so violently , that it vvas no vvonder if the protestants caried their revenge so far , as to force him to die of hunger , in the mountains of the north of england , to vvhich he had retired . here are only three capital errours : for 1. sanders's book , concerning the english schisme , vvas not published till after his death , so that this could give no occasion for so severe a revenge . 2. sanders did not die in the north of england , but in ireland . 3. sanders vvas sent over by the pope to raise and conduct a rebellion in ireland , for vvhich he had immediate povvers from the pope . he was so active , that he brought an army together , which was defeated by the queen's forces : and upon that he fled into a wood , where he was , some days after , found dead . so that having received no wounds , it was believed he died of hunger . this being the state of that affair , as it is related of all sides , is not mr. varillas a very creditable author , who has the brow to report it as he does ? for the character that he gives of ribadeneira , it is so embroiled , that i do not think it worth the vvhile to examine it . it is enough to say that ribadeneira is a jesuite , that is to say , a man true to mr. varillas his character of religion , and his history is nothing but sanders drest up in another method . i speak of that which is in latin , for the spanish , i have never seen it . for lesley he is generally a grave and wise writer , but mr. varillas names him , because some body had told him , that one of such a name had writ of those matters , otherwise he had never cited him with relation to english affairs , which he scarce ever mentions , but as they happned to be intermixt with the scotsh . in conclusion , mr. varillas pretends to depend upon cardinal bellay's letters , and so he thinks here is enough to settle , in the spirit of his reader , a firm beleef of all that he intends to write ; but let him tell the world where they are to be found , since the printed volume contains nothing of the matters , that he pretends to cite from him . and since i have printed so many of the original letters of that time , and have told the reader where they are to be found , i will expect the like from him , otherwise let him cite them as long as he will , i will take the liberty to tell him that i do not believe him . and i think , that by this time i have given him sufficient reasons for excusing my incredulity , in matters that he gives us upon his own word . here is enough for a preliminary . but i am affraid i grow heavy to my reader ; and that by this time he is so fully satisfied concerning the principles both of mr. varillas's religion , and his morals , that he begins to lose patience , when he sees how far i am like to carry him in a more copious discovery . but there are a sort of men , that must be severely repressed : and there are some times , in which even a fool is to be answered according to his folly . yet i will so far manage my reader , as not to overcharge him too much : therefore as to many of those political digressions , that mr. var. makes upon the interest of england , france and spain , i will pass them quite over , as the whipped cream that he sets before his reader . some of them are not unpleasant , if they were proposed as considerations , which might perhaps have had their weight : but his averring them confidently is not to be excused , they might pass in a kind of a book of politicks as a refining upon the actions of princes ; but this way of writing is by no means to be allowed in history , since it is without any sort of evidence , and history ought to relate things as we find they really were designed , and transacted ; and not as we imagine they ought or might have been . i am now entring upon a subject , in which it will be much more easy for me to say too much , than too little : for mr. varillas commits so many errours , that thô i am resolved to let lesser matters pass unregarded , yet i find so many in my way , which require a discovery , that i am engaged in a task as ingrateful to my self , as it must be severe upon him . 1. he begins with an assurance , that all the rest of wiclef's heresy were so entirely rooted out of england , that the whole nation , without excepting one single person , was of the same religion during the reign of henry the 7th . i am not now near the records of that time , but in my history i have shewed by the records of k. henry the 8th's reign , that in the year 1511. which was but two years after henry the 7th's death , there remain yet in the registers of the see of canterbury the processes of 41 persons , of whom 7 were condemned for hereticks , and delivered to the secular arm , and the rest had the weakness to abjure : and from this hint one must conclude , that mr. varillas had no knowledg of our affairs ; but he thought the period was rounder , and the air of writing was more assuming , when he asserted that the whole nation , without excepting one single person , was of the same religion . the opinions , objected to those persons , shew , that the reformation found a disposition in the nation , to receive it by the doctrines which were entertained by many in it : for the chief of them are , that the sacrement of the altar was not christ's body , but material bread : that images ought not to be worshipped : that pilgrimages were neither necessary nor profitable : and that we ought not to address our prayers to saints , but only to god. but since this may be thought only a flourish of mr. varillas's pen , i go to other matters , in which it cannot be denied that a greater exactness was necessary . 2. he lays down for a foundation to all that was to come after , that p. arthur was very unhealthy , when he was married . that he was recovering out of a great disease , of which he died 5 months after . it is true , he does acknowledg , that three words in the bull , that was granted for the subsequent marriage , seem to import , that this marriage was consummated : yet he takes the word of the other historians , and repeats this of p. arthur's ill health so often , that he hoped , it seems , by that means to make his reader swallow it down easily . here he had writ a little more artificially , if he had set over against this , on the margent some citation of a letter , or recital , vvhich vvould have cost him nothing , and have been full as true , as his other citations are . many witnesses that vvere examined upon oath , deposed before the legates , vvhen this matter vvas examined , that p. arthur vvas of a good complexion , vigorous and robust , when he vvas married ; that he bedded vvith his princess every night : and the decay of vvhich he died , vvas ascribed to his too early mariage . and of this mr. varillas takes some notice , vvithout reflecting on the consequence , that the reader might naturally draw from it ; for he says , k. henry the 7th delayed the marrying of his second son 6 years after he had obtained the bull , and that the death of his eldest son made him apprehend the loss of his second son ; if he married him so young . and thô he intervveaves a politick reflection , according to his vvay , that is to say impertinently , and says , if this fear vvas not altogether just ; yet since k. henry the 7th had no other son , it vvas not altogether unreasonable . but it is obvious that this is altogether impertinent , if p. arthur's mariage vvent no further than a publick ceremony . but there are other circumstances that overthrovv this , as much as a thing that is of its nature secret , is capable of being disproved . it is said by our historians , who writ at that time , that the spanish ambassadour took proofs of the consummation of the mariage . and in the bull of dispensation , for the subsequent mariage , this was also supposed as a thing that was perhaps done . but thô our author set on the margent the precise words , in which he says that was conceived ; yet either he never read the bull , and so took this upon trust , or he was in a fit of his religion , which was so violent , that it made him not only take no care of what he said , whither it was true or false ; but made him advance a deliberate falsehood . for whereas in the preamble of the bull of dispensation for the younger brother , it is set forth , that p. arthur and the princess had been lawfully married , and had perhaps consummated their mariage , where the matter of fact is set down in a dubious manner , he makes that the dispensation had allowed their mariage , even thô the former had been consummated . and as the words that he cites are not the words of the bull , so they give a different notion of the matter ; since as he gives the words , they seem only to be a clause put in , to make the bull more unquestionable ; whereas in truth they are a part of the matter of fact represented to the pope . and thô this doubtful way of representing this matter of fact , that is in the bull , was all that could be decently said upon this case , yet it seems the spaniards , who knew the mariage was consummated , resolved to set the matter past dispute , for they either procured at that time a breve , of the same date with the bull , or they forged one afterwards , in which in the preamble this matter is asserted , without any perhaps , or other limiting word , it being positively set forth , that the mariage was consummated . if mr. varillas's religion sets him at liberty from the scrupulosity of writing truth , yet that profound policy , to which he always pretends , should oblige him to take a little care , that the falsehoods that he advances , may not be easily discovered . 3. he says , henry the 8th was 12. year old , when his brother died ; and that his father had designed him for the ecclesiastical state. this was taken up by the writers of the last age , to make the parallel between iulian the emperour and him seem to agree : that as iulian had been a reader in the church ; so king henry should be represented as an abbot with a little band . but as king henry was not 12 year old , when his brother died , for he wanted some months of 11 : and as at that age young princes , considering the respect that is payed to them in their education , have seldome been found far advanced in learning ; so it does not appear , that he had then any other education different from what was given his brother , who understood latin , and some of the beginnings of learning . learning was then in great reputation , and k. henry the 7th engaged his children to study , either to raise their authority the higher by that means , or perhaps to amuse them with learning , that they might not think of pretending to the crown during his life , since the undoubted title to it resting in the person of their mother , it had devolved upon them by her death , thô they did not think fit to claim their right . 4. he says , that when k. henry the 7th intended to marry his younger son to p. arthur's widdow , the privy council of england approuved it the more easily , because of the precaution that had been taken to hinder the consummation of the former mariage : and to confirm this , he cites on the margent the petition , that the parliament of england offered upon this matter to p. alexander the 6th . but as the depositions are yet extant of the duke of norfolk , that was then a privy councellour , and of two others , that there was no precaution used to hinder the consummation ; so warham , that was at that time archbishop of canterbury , opposed the second mariage , as being neither honourable , nor well-pleasing to god , as he himself did afterwards depose upon oath . the parliament took no cognisance of the matter , nor did it make any address to the pope ; so that this citation is to be considered as an effect of mr ▪ varillas his notion of religion . 5. he runs out , in his manner , into a long speculation concerning the different interests of england and spain , that made the spaniards go backwards and forwards , in the agreeing to the match , that was proposed for p. henry and the princess ; whom by an extravagant affectation he calls always duke of york : and makes the princesse's parents represent to k. henry the 7th , the danger of his son 's growing weary of the princess , since he was 4 year younger than she was , and that in order to the procuring of a dissolution of the mariage from the court of rome , he might pretend that his father had forced him to marry her , whenever he should grow weary of her . all the other writers of that time put k. henry the 7th's desiring this second mariage meerly on his covetousness , which made him equally unwilling to repay the portion , or to send a great jointure yearly after the princess : and the prince of wales was too great a match to be so uneasily admitted by the king and queen of spain . he whom he calls by the title of the duke of york , was indeed only duke of york , for some months after his brother's death , during which time it was supposed , that the princess might be with child by his brother ; which proves beyond exception , that it was believed , that the first mariage was consummated . but when there was no more reason to apprehend that , then he carried the title , that belongs to the heir apparent of our crown . but it seems the king and queen of spain were more easily satisfied in this matter , than mr. varillas would make us believe they were : for two years after the bull was granted , when p. henry came to be of age , he instead of entring into any engagement to marry the princess , made a solemn protestation in the hands of the bishop of winchester , by which he recalled the consent that he had given during his minority , and declared that he would never marry her . but it is very likely mr. varillas had never heard of this , thô the instrument of that protestation was not only mentioned , but printed by many of the writers of that age : and it is confessed by sanders himself , who , after all mr. varillas's flourish with his letters , is his only author . and for this foresight , that he thinks he may justly ascribe to the king and queen of spain , because they are represented by the writers of that time , to have had an extraordinary sagacity , the reason that he makes them give , shews it was a contrivance of his own : since a moral force , such as the authority of a father , was never so much as pretended to be a just ground to annul a mariage , after it was made and consummated ; otherwise most of the mariages that have been made , might have been dissolved . 6. he adds to this another speculation , that is worthy of him , he pretends that the king and queen of spain apprehended , that k. henry the 7th had acquired the crown of england , and by consequence had a right to dispose of it at his pleasure ; upon which the crown of spain was afraid , least he should have disinherited his son , and given the crown to the duke of suffolk , that was then at brussels , and was preparing an invasion of england , from which they did not know , but k. henry the 7th might save himself , by declaring suffolk his successour , and that upon those fears they were unwilling to consent to the match . here is such a mixture of follies , that it is not easy to tell which of them is the most remarkable . this doctrine of the crown of england's being alienable at the king's pleasure , might have passed well with those , that some years ago thought to have shut out the next heir , and yet even these did not pretend that it could have been done by the king alone . but here is a new theory of politicks , for which we are sure mr. varillas can cite no authorities from the laws and constitutions of england . k. henry the 7th had indeed acquired the crown , by defeating that tyrant and usurper richard the 3 d : but as he pretended to be heir of the lancastrian race himself , so by marrying to the heir of the house of york , that was the right heir , he by a conjunction of all titles , made the matter sure . but this gave him no right to alienate the crown at his pleasure , and to fancy , that a king might be induced to give away his crown from his own son , to the person in the world that he hated most , and whom at his death he ordered his son never to forgive ; who , by the way , was not duke but only earl of suffolk , is a dream better becoming so slight a brain as is that of mr. varillas , than the consummated wisdome of the king and queen of spain . but thus it falls out when a library keeper turns statesman ; and when from being a teller of tales , he will turn a writer of histories , which he composes out of his own imaginations , he must needs fall into childish errours . when do kings fall under those weaknesses , as to disinherit an only son , to cover them from a remote fear : and a very remote one it was ; for the archduke needed at that time the assistance of england against france too much , to be in a condition to raise a civil war in england , and to support a competition to the crown , which could have no other effect , as to him , but to give france an opportunity , during the distractions of england , to come and destroy him . in short , here is a vision of a poor-spirited pedant , which is too much considered , when it named and laught at . 7. he pretends to enter into the reasons that were alledged at rome , both for and against the granting of the bull ; but at last he concludes , that pope alexander the 6th would not consent to it ; that he might not give occasion to accuse him , of having broken the discipline of the church . but here is such a false representation of the court of rome at that time , and in particular of p. alexander the 6th , that since mr. varillas will needs write romances , i must put him in mind of one rule ; that as painters shew their judgment and learning , in that which is in one word called le costume , observing the air , manners , and habits of the ages and scenes to which their pieces belong ; so poets , when they bring unknown names into their plays , they may clothe them with what characters they please ; but if they represent men , whose histories are known , they must not confound characters , nor represent a nero as a grave philosopher , or as a good natured prince ; nor a marcus aurelius as a wanton stage-player , or as a bloody tyrant . and therefore , thô mr. varillas may shew his pretended discoveries , concerning men that are less known , yet when he brings in an alexander the 6th on the stage , it is too bold a violation of poetry , to lay a strictness of conscience , or a sense of honour to his charge : and thô there is one part of this period true , that there had never been any dispensation of this sort formerly granted , to serve as a precedent for it : yet that exactness , in which he represents the enquiry , that the divines of rome made concerning this matter , agrees ill with the state of the court of rome at that time ; and a painter may as justly represent the old romans in pantalaons , and with hats in their hands . 8. he says , k. henry the 7th was preparing all things for the mariage of his son , to the princess , when he died . and a little before that he had said , that her parents sacrificed the interest of their family to the satisfaction of the king of england , by consenting to it . a match with the heir of the crown of england , was no very costly sacrifice : and for his vision concerning the design of marrying her to the duke of calabria , and by that means of restoring the kingdome of naples , it does so ill agree with the character of the king of arragon , that since there is no proof brought of this , i must look on it as one of those imaginations , with which mr. varillas loves to entertain his readers . but for k. henry the 7th , he was so far from making any preparations for the mariage , that one of the writers of that age assures us , that at his death he charged his son to break it , apprehending perhaps a return of a new civil war , upon the issue of a doubtful marriage . 9. he gives us a new tast of his unskilfulness in ordering his scenes . he had found that when henry the 8th's divorce came to be started , there was some discourse of a match between him and francis the first 's sister , afterwards the queen of navarre , and therefore he thought a proposition for her , might come in before the mariage , as a pretty ornament to his fable . but the silence of all the papers of that time , which i have seen , is a much better evidence against it , than his pretended negotiation of mr. de piennes is for it , to which no credit is due . it is well known that in the archives of venice there are recitals laid up of all the negotiations of their ambassadours , and mr. varillas having perhaps heard of this , he fancied it would have a good grace , to cite such recitals as to french affairs , thô all that know the state of france , know , that this has not been the practice of that court. but as there is no proof to shew that there was any such proposition made at that time , so the state of k. lewis the 12th's court differs extreamly from it , in which the count of angoulême , afterwards francis the first , and his sister , were not so favourable , as to give us reason to think that pains was taken to raise that lady to the throne of england . 10. he tells us , that king henry the 8th calling a parliament in the beginning of his reign , they thought themselves bound in point of honour , to oblige to execute his father's orders , relating to his mariage ; who had not only made it the chief article of his testament , and charged his son to do it upon his last blessing ; but had laid the same charge on the men of the greatest credit in england , as he spoke his last words to them : upon which the parliament being careful to maintain this authority , to which they pretended , over their master , did oblige him , by repeated remonstrances to marry the princess . here he goes to show how implacably he is set against the crown of england : formerly he had debased their birth , but he thought that was not enough ; now he will degrade them of their dignity , and give the parliament a superiority over them . but it is a fatal thing for an ignorant man to write history : for if mr. varillas could have so much as opened our book of statutes , he would have found , that the first parliament , that k. henry the 8th held , was assembled the 21. of ianuary 1510. almost 8. months after the mariage , which was celebrated six weeks after he came to the crown , in which time , if mr. varillas had understood any thing of our constitutions , he would have known , that it was impossible for a parliament to have met , since there must be 40. days between a summonds and a meeting of parliament ; so that if the new king had summoned one , the day after his father's death , it could not have met sooner , than the day before the mariage . 11. he says , the queen bore five children , the first three , sons , and the other two , girls ; but the eldest son lived only 9 months , the other two sons , and the eldest girl , died immediately after they were born , only the youngest , that was born the 8 of february 1515 , was longer lived . mr. varillas has a peculiar talent of committing more errours in one single period , than any writer of the age : and here he has given a good essay of his art ; for the queen bore only three children , the first was a son , born the 1. of ianuary , that died the 22 of february thereafter , which was not two full months , much less 9 months : the second son died not immediatly , but about a fourtnight after he was born : and the daughter , afterwards q. mary , was born the 9th of february 1516. so that thô by chance he has hit the month right , yet he is mistaken , both as to the year , and the day of the month. so unadvised a thing it is for an ignorant writer , to deliver matters of fact so particularly : for thô this may deceive others , that are as ignorant as himself , by an appearance of exactness ; yet it lays him too open to those , that can find the leisure and the patience , to expose him : and the last is no easy matter . 12. he runs out into a very copious account of k. henry's disorders , and dresses up q. katherine's devotions in a very sublime strain . it does not appear , that in all that time he had any other mistress , but elisabeth blunt : and during all that while , he had the highest panigyriques made him by all the clergy of europe , upon his zeal for religion and piety ; possible so , that if we did not live in an age , in which flattery has broke loose from all the restraints of decency , they would appear very extravagant commendations ; and if the sublimities of flattery were not rather a just prejudice against a prince , which give a character of a swelled ambition , and an imperious tyranny , that must be courted by such abject methods , so that it is hard , whither we ought to think worse of the flaterers , or the flatered , we would be tempted to judge very advantageously of k. henry the 8th , by the dedications , and other fawning addresses that were made him . as for q. katherine , it does appear , that she was indeed a vertuous and devout woman ; but mr. varillas being more accustomed to legends , than to true histories , could not set out this , without a considerable addition of his own : for the half of it is not mentioned by any author , that ever i saw , nor by any quoted by himself : but a poët must adorn his matter , and if he has not judgment , he overdoes it . 13. he says , the king designed to marry his natural son the duke of richmont , to his daughter mary ; upon which he makes that long digression , concerning the names of the race of tudors , that was formerly considered . when a man affirms a thing , that is so notoriously injurious to the memory of a prince , he ought at least to give some sort of proof of its truth : for thô in the accesses of mr. varillas's religious fits , he does not think fit to trouble himself with those inconsiderable matters of truth and falsehood ; yet all the world is not of his mind , and some colours of truth are at least lookt for . it is true , a negative is not easily proved , so a bold affirmer fancies , he has some advantages ; but in this case it is quite otherwise , for the whole series of the original instructions , messages and letters , that passed between rome and england , in that matter , are still extant , in all which there is not the least tittle , relating to this proposition . and there are some things of such indecency , that nothing but a temper like mr. varillas's can bring them together . for when k. henry was pretending a scruple of conscience , at his own marrying his brother's wise , it is very improbable , that he would have asked a dispensation for a mariage in a much nearer degree . for sanders , that is mr. varillas's author , says , that both propositions were made at the same time . there were many libels printed against k. henry , about that time ; but the strongest , and the best writ , was that of cardinal pools , in which it is visible , that he spares nothing that he could alledg with any colour of truth ; yet he says nothing of this matter , thô it had more weight in it to discover the king's hypocrisy , in pretending to scruples of conscience , than all the other things he alledges : and i never could find any other author for this story , before sanders , whose book was printed 60 years after . 14. he gives another essay of his skill in history , and that he is equally ignorant of the histories of all kingdomes , when he represents to us the endeavours of the king of scotland , for the obtaining of a mariage with the princes mary , in favours of his son , upon whose person he bestows a kind dash of his pen , and he enters into a speculation of the danger , that king henry apprehended from this proposition ; and that if he had rejected it , the king and prince of scotland might have addressed themselves for it to the parliament , and that the parliament would have raised a general rebellion , rather than have suffered king henry to reject it . the dislike that mr. varillas has conceived against the crown of england , seems deeply rooted in him ; for it returns very often . here he represents forreign princes complaining to parliaments , when the kings do not accept of propositions for their children ; as if our princes were less at liberty in the disposal of their children , than the meanest of their subjects are : but he knows our constitution as little as he does the history of scotland , otherwise he could not have represented the king of scotland , as pretending to the mariage of the princess mary for his son ; since k. iames the fourth , that had married king henry's sister , was kill'd at the battel of floddun the 2 september 1513 , above three years before the princess was born , he left an infant son , between whom and the princess a treaty of a mariage was once proposed , but no progress was made in it , for k. henry neglected it . and he had always his parliaments so subject to him , to apprehend any of those vain schemes , with which mr. varillas would possess his reader . there are many that make no great progress in history , but yet know somewhat of the death of kings , and that carry some small measure of chronology in their head. yet since mr. varillas has not yet got so far , he had best buy some common chronological tables , and have them always before him , when he writes ; and this will at least preserve him from such childish errours . 15. he tells us , that there were many pretenders to the young princess ; and to make a full period , he tells us , that all the souverains of europe courted her , both the emperour , the kings of france , spain and scotland ; and so he gives us a fantastical speculation of king henry's balancing those propositions one against another . but since for a round periods sake he will needs split charles the 5th in two , and name both the emperour and the k. of spain as two pretenders , he might have as well subdivided him into the king of arragon and castile , sicily and naples , and the very titular kingdome of ierusalem , might have come in for its share . 16 he tells us that thô the match of scotland was the most for the interest of the nation ; yet king henry was so angry with his nephew the king of scotland , for taking part against him , in his last war with france , that he resolved never to give him his daughter . here mr. varillas will see again the necessity of purchasing a chronological table ; for thô that will cost him some money , which as i am told , goes very near his heart ; yet it will preserve him from some scurvy errours , they may spoil the sale of his books : for any one of those tables , even the worst and cheepest , would have shewed him , that it was not his nephew that took part with france against him ; but his nephew's father : for king iames the 4th , that was king henry's brother-in-law , made war on that occasion , and was killed in it , leaving an infant son behind him ; but it is pleasant to see the ignorance of this scribler , that makes in one place king iames the 4th to court the princess for his son , thô he died several years before she was born , and then makes king iames the 5th to be making war with his uncle , during his father's life , and while himself was an infant . 17. he says , the emperour came , and pretended the second to the princess , and upon that he sets down a large negotiation , that he had with cardinal wolsey . but he shews here an ignorance of charles the 5th's life , thô he pretends to have made more than ordinary discoveries concerning his affairs , that proves , that he has studied all history alike ill . he reckons up the series of the propositions for the princess quite wrong ; for she was first contracted to the dolphin the 9 november 1518 , by a treaty yet extant , then charles the 5th came into england in person , and contracted a mariage with her at windsor the 22 of iune 1522 ; after that there was a proposition made for the king of scotland , that was soon let fall ; and last of all there was a treaty set on foot , for the king of france then a widdower , or for his second son the duke of orleans , it being left to francis's option to determine that : and so remarkable a passage , as charles the 5th's coming to england in person , was unhappily unknown to mr. varillas ; otherwise he would have dressed up a mighty scene of politicks to adorn it . 18 he gives us the character and the history of card. wolsey , with his ordinary colours , in which truth comes very seldome in for an ingredient , he tells us how he was bp. of tournay , or rather oeconome of that see , and how many journeys he made between tournay and london ; and that he being enriched at tournay , he got the bishoprick of lincoln , after that , upon the bp. of winchester's death , he had that see , from that he was raised to be archbishop of york ; then he was made chancellour of england , then cardinal and legat à latere , and last of all , he was made chief minister of state ; and to shew our author 's deep judgment , this last article seemed so doubtful a point to him , that he must needs bestow a proofe on it , and he sends us to p. leo the 10th's register , thô the advancements that he had already reckoned up , may well make this pass without a more particular proof ; nor is p. leo's register a place likely to find it in . here is a great deal to let his reader see , how entirely he was possessed with the history of that time ; since he could run out so far with the character and history of that minister ; but for the strain , in which he sets out his character , one must see , it is only mr. varillas's fancy : for how came he to know cardinal wolsey's air and manner of deportment , even in the smallest thing . i that have seen much more of him in his letters , dispatches and instructions than mr. varillas can pretend to have done , dare not goe so far , because i have not arrived at mr. varillas his pitch of religion ; but if his character is no truer than the history that he gives of wolsey , i know what name is due to it . he was made bishop of tournay in october , and bp. or lincoln in the march thereafter , or rather in february , for the temporalty was given him the 4th of march , which is always restored after the consecration , so that here was not time enough to make such journies between tournay and london , nor to enrich himself with the former : he had not winchester but 15 years after that ; but he was made archbishop of york two year after he had lincoln ; he was also made cardinal and legate , before he was made chancelour ; for warham archbishop of canterbury was chancelour while he was legate , and had some disputes with him , touching his legative power ; upon which he obtained that dignity , for puting an end to all disputes ; and in stead of his being last of all minister of state , he was first of all minister of state , while he was only the lord almoner , and all his other dignities came upon him , as the natural effects of that confidence and favour into which the king had received him . 19. he cannot assent to some historians , that imagine he was the confident of k. henry's pleasures , since he thinks , if that had been true , he could not have been so cheated afterwards , as he was . here is a demonstration that he never read my history , into which i have put , besides other evidences of his being on the secret of anne boleyn's matter , two letters , that she writ to him , which are undeniable proofs of it . but as for the long story into with he runs out , concerning charles the 5th's intrigues with him , and his way of writing to him , in the stile of son and cousin , for which he cites on the margent the emperour's letters to wolsey , that lie in his fancy , that is the greatest library in the world , but the hardest to be come at , all this is so loosely writ , that it is plain mr. varillas had no light to direct him in it , since he says not a word of the most important circumstance of it , which was the emperour's coming in person to england , which was beleeved to have been done chiefly to gain wolsey entirely , and in which it is certain , that he had all the success that he had wisht for . 20. he says , wolsey being alienated from the emperour , engaged the king of france , after he was set at liberty , to treat for a match between the dauphin and the princess of england , upon which they were contracted with great magnificency ; but that was not enough , for the cardinal's malice . i have formerly shewed , that the proposition of a mariage between the dauphin and the princess was in the year 1518 , long before francis the first 's imprisonment ; but the treaty set on foot after his liberty , was either for himself , or his second son , and this sort of a treaty being somewhat extraordinary , where the alternative lay between the father and the son for the same lady , mr. varillas shews his great ignorance of the affairs of that time , since he says nothing of it ; for this would have given him occasion enough to have entertained his reader with many visions and speculations . 21. he says , that wolsey dealt with longland the king's confessour , to possess him with scruples concerning the lawfulness of his mariage , that longland refused to do it , but engaged wolsey to begin , and he promised to fortify the scruples , that the cardinal should infuse into the king's mind . upon which the cardinal did open the matter to the king , and the king being shaken by his proposition , laid the matter before his confessour , who seconded the cardinal . in this he has taken the liberty to depart from sanders , thô he is the author whom he generally copies ; but it is easy to pretend to tell secrets , but not so easy to prove them . the king himself did afterwards in publick not only deny this , but affirmed that wolsey had opposed his scruples all he could , and that he himself had opened them in confession to longland , and the king himself said to grineus , that he was disquieted with those scruples ever from the year 1529 , which was three years before the matter was made publick . 22. he says , the king upon that consulted the divines of england , concerning the validity of the mariage , and that all those that were men of probity and disinteressed , answered in the affirmative ; but some that did aspire , or that were corrupted , thought it doubtful , others , who were very few in number , affirmed it was unlawful . this is so false , that all the bishops of england , fisher only excepted , declared under their hands and seals , that they thought the mariage unlawful . 23. he gives a character of anne boleyn , in which he takes up the common reports of her ill shape , her yellow colour , her gag tooth , her lump under her chin , and her hand with six fingers : but because all this agrees ill to the mistress of a king , he , to soften that , adds a long character of her wit , her air and humour , in which he lays her charms , and here he takes all the licences of a poët , as well as of a painter . but as several of her pictures , yet extant , shew the folly of those stories , concerning her deformity , so the other particulars of this picture are for most part fetcht out of that repository of false history , that lies in mr. varillas's imagination . 24. he says , the english historians , and some other catholicks , agree to those things , and for his vouchers he cites on the margent , sanders , ribadeneira and remond ; but they add many other particulars , thô they differ concerning them , and thô he will not affirm them to be true ; yet he thinks it worth the while to set them down . they say , that anne boleyn's true father was not known : that she was born in england , while he was ambassadour in france : that henry the 8th , being in love with the mother , had sent away her husband , that so he might satisfy his appetites more freely ; but that he soon quited the mother for her eldest daughter mary : that sr. thomas boleyn at his return to england , finding his wife with child , begun a sute against her , but that the king forced him to be reconciled to his wife , and to own the child that she bore some time after , who was anne boleyn : that this daughter at the age of 15 , was dishonoured by two of her father's domesticks , upon which she was sent to france , where she was so common a prostitute , that she went by the name of the english hackney : that she was a common subject of raillery : that she became a lutheran , thô she made still profession of the other religion . he says , others make her pass for a heroïne , that cannot be enough commended , yet he acknowledges there are not authentical evidences left , to discover their imposture . here is a way of writing , that agrees well with mr. varillas's other qualities : he was here in a cold fit , and so his religion did not operate so strong , as to disengage him quite from all regard to truth , only it produces one start , that is sufficiently extravagant , for he accuses all that is said in favours of anne boleyn of imposture , thô at the same time he acknowledges , there are not authentick evidences to disprove it ; but how then came he to know , that those commendations were impostures ? he answers that in the beginning of this paragraph , and cites in general the historians of england and other catholick writers : and for the historians of england he gives us sanders alone , thô he can hardly make a plural out of him , unless he splits him into three or four subdivisions , as he had done charles the 5th , when he reckoned up the emperour and the king of spain as two of the pretenders to the princess mary . but thô i have in my history demonstrated the falsehood of all this legend so evidently , that i had perhaps wearied my reader , by prooving that too copiously , yet since i see that nature can croud so much impudence in mr. varillas alone , as might serve even the whole order of the jesuites , and that he is resolved to keep up the credit of the blackest falsehoods , as the church of rome preserves still in her breviary a great many lessons with prayers and anthems , relating to them , that are now by the consent of learned men exploded as fables , i must again lay open this matter , thô i thought i had so fully confuted those lies , that even a pension could not have engaged a man to support them any more . it may seem enough to an impartial mind , that sanders was the first , that ever published those stories , above 50 years after anne boleyn's death : that thô card. pool , and the other writers of that time , had left nothing unsaid , that could blacken k. henry ; yet none of them had brow enough to assert sanders's fictions : and that after anne boleyn's tragical fall , when her misfortunes had made it a fashionable thing to blacken her , yet these impostures were reserved for sanders , and for an age , in which he and many others of his church were setting on many rebellions and conspiracies against q. elisabeth , they were so powerfully acted by mr. varillas's spirit of religion , thô they had not the folly to own it , as he has done , as to give themselves the liberty to say the foulest things against the mother , without giving themselves the trouble to enquire , whither they were true or false : and the things here advanced are of such a nature , that either they must be evidently true , or they are notoriously false ; for an embassy into france of such a continuance , a sute moved upon sr. tho. boleyn's return , were publick matters , and must have lien open to a discovery . the whole recital is impossible , as it is told ; for if she was born after sr. tho. boleyn return'd from an embassy , to which king henry had sent him , that he might enjoy his wife , and in which he staid two years , as sanders says ; then since king henry came to the crown in the year 1509 , she must be born in the year 1511 , and then the 15th year of her age will fall in the year 1526 , and it being certain that the king began to court her in the year 1527 , here is not time enough for her leudness and her long stay in france . but it is certain that she was born in the year 1507 , two years before k. henry came to the crown , and when he was but 14 years old , and that at 7 years old she went over to france with k. henry's sister , when she was married to lewis the 12th ; and thô upon that king's death the queen dowager of france came soon after back into england , yet anne boleyn staid still in france , and was in the service of claud francis's the first 's queen , and after her death the king's sister , the dutchess of alençon , took her into her service , and these two princesses were so celebrated for their vertue , that this alone is enough to shew , that she was then under no infamy , since she was of their family . she was also maid of honour to our queen katherine , who , even by mr. varillas's character , was of too severe a vertue to admit a common prostitute to that degree of honour . so that here is more than enough to discredit all those calumnies . 25. he says , thô there is not evidence enough in the former reports , yet there is a certain proof for k. henry's disorders with the elder of the two sisters , mary boleyn , since in the demand , that k. henry made for a permission to marry anne , he confessed his disorders with her sister , and offered to do pennance for them : and to vouch for this , he cites king henry's petition to p. clement the 7th . here mr. varillas shews , how little he understands the advantages that he has , to maintain his assertions , since there is an authority for this last , that has more appearance of truth in it , than all his other citations put together , thô his ignorance made him incapable of finding it out . for cardinal pool , in his book against k. henry , objects this to him , and this has a fair appearance : whereas the petition , that he cites , is a dream of his own , that was never before heard of . but thô i have said more for the honour of cardinal pool , than all the panegiricks that have been given him , amount to , yet i am very well assured , that in this particular he was abused by reports , to which he gave too easy a belief : for as all the original instructions and dispatches , that were made upon that affair , are yet extant , in which there is not one word relating to this matter ; so it is plain , that the affair was never so far advanced , as to demand a permission for a second mariage , since that could never be so much as asked , till the first was dissolved , and that not being gained , there was not room made for it . if the king had given such advantages against himself , as to have put such a confession in a petition to the pope , is it to be imagined , that the popes would not have discovered this in some authentical manner , and even have put it in the thundering bull , that was afterwards published against him ? for this alone proved his hypocrisy of pretending scruples of conscience at his mariage beyond exception ; and if the king acted in this matter without any regard to conscience , it is unreasonable to represent him as so strictly conscientious , and that he would have confessed so scandalous a secret , and so to have put himself in the power of those , of whom he could not be well assured . 26. he gives us a long account of wolsey's design , to engage the king to marry the dutchess of alençon . of the bishop of tarke's being sent over to bring the english princess into france , upon her being contracted to the dauphin . and of wolsey's prevailing with him , to let that proposition fall , and to set on another , for a mariage between the king of england and the dutchess of alençon . and that the bp. of tarke was cheated by wolsey ; and being in the interests of the dutchess of alençon , he demanded a publick audience of the king , in the presence of the council , in which he imployed all his eloquence to persuade him to divorce his queen , and to marry the most christian king's sister . in all this matter mr. varillas is only the copier of sanders , yet he cannot tell another man's lie , without mixing some additions of his own ; for the bp. of tarke's being sent over , to demand the princess , is one of the fruits of his own religion . but thô a pedant of a priest , such as sanders , had told so improbable a story ; yet it ill became a man , that pretends to know courts , and the negotiations of ambassadours , as mr. varillas does , to assert such improbabilities , as that an ambassadour sent express to demand a princess for his master's son , which was the greatest advantage that france could have possibly hoped for , should be so far wrought on by the minister of the court , to which he was sent , as not only to let all this fall ; but to make a new proposition for the illegitimating of the young princess , and for offering his master's sister to king henry , and all this without any instructions from his master , and thereby exposing the dutchess of alençon to the scorn of being rejected , after she was so publickly offered to the king of england ; thô every body knows , that the first offers of princesses are made in secret . and after all this , that the bishop of tarke , who not only exceeded his instructions , but acted contrary to them in so important a matter , was neither recalled , nor disgraced ; but on the contrary , he was afterwards promoted to be a cardinal by the recommendation of the court of france ; and he being a cardinal , and seeing afterwards how he was abused , if we may believe this fable , is it to be supposed , that he , either out of his own zeal for the court of rome , or by the accusations that naturally such a proposition , begun by him , must have brought on him , would not have told all this secret afterwards ? in short , as this relation contains many particulars in it , that are not according to the forms of our court , such as his demanding an audience in the presence of the council ( for it seems , as mr. varillas set our parliaments above our kings , he will make the privy council equal to them ) so the whole is so contrary to all the methods of ambassadours , that this would scarce pass , if it related to the transactions of the courts of china or iapan ; but it is so gross an imposition on such as know the methods of the courts of europe , that mr. varillas presumed too much on the credulity of his readers , when he thought that this could be believed : and si non è vero , il è ben trovato , is so necessary a character for a man to maintain , that would have his books sell well , which i am told is mr. varillas's chief design , that he had best find out some judge of his pieces , that has a true understanding , since it is plain , that he has not sence enough himself to make a right judgment in such matters . 27. he says , when cardinal wolsey went over into france he caried a commission to consult the universities of france , touching the king's divorce ; but that the change of affairs in italy , made the king to recal him ; who was strangely surprised , when he found that the king had no thoughts of marrying the dutchess of alençon , and that he was become so much in love with anne boleyn , that he was resolved to marry her on any terms . it is an unfortunate thing for a man , to have heard too much , and to have read too little of history : for as the one gives him much confidence , so the other exposes him to many errours . mr. varillas had heard , that k. henry had consulted many universities ; but not knowing where to place this , he fancied , that it must be the first step in the whole matter . but he knew not , that this was not thought on , till after a sute of above two years continuance , in which the king saw , how he was deluded by the court of rome ; and upon that , he took the other method of consulting the universities . all his speculations concerning card. wolsey , are built on the common mistake , that supposes him ignorant of the king's intentions for anne boleyn , the falsehood of which i have sufficiently demonstrated . 28. he tells us , that card. wolsey having once several bishops to dine with them , the king knowing of it , went to them after dinner , and made a writing to be read to them , that set forth the reasons against his mariage : the bishops did not approve it quite ; yet they were so complying , as to say , that if those things were true , his scruples were well grounded . this was too important a thing , not be made appear probable by some of his pretended vouchers , thô it is most certainly false ; for a resolution , signed by all the bishops of england , except fisher , was produced before the legates , to shew how well the king's scruples were grounded . 29. he says , the privy councel acted more steadily , and intended to give the king an undeniable proof of his mistresses lewdness ; for sr. thomas wiat , that had obtained of her the last favours , was willing to let the king know it ; and so being of the privy councel , he not only owned the matter to the rest of that board , but was content to let the king know it ; and when he found that the king would not believe it , he offered to make the king himself an eye-witness to their privacies ; but thô the duke of suffolk made this bold proposition to the king , he was so far from hearkning to it , that wiat was disgraced upon it , and by this means the mistress was covered from such dangerous discoveries for the future . such a story as this might have passed from a sanders , that knew the world little ; but in earnest , it seems the fits of mr. varillas's religion are strong even to extasy , since they make him write as extravagantly of humane affairs , as if he had passed his whole life in a desert . a man that knows what humane nature is , cannot think that wiat would have either so far betraied mrs. boleyn , or exposed himself , as to have made such a discovery ; it being more natural for a man , that was assured of a young lady's favour , to contribute to her elevation , since that must have raised himself , than to contrive her ruin. and k. henry , whose imperious temper gave him a particular disposition to jealousy , must have been of different composition from all the rest of mankind , if he could have rejected a discovery of this nature . and when the secrets of jealousies are opened to princes , it is too gross , even for a romance , to make the discoverer to begin with the councel-board , and to procure a deputation from them , to acquaint the king with them . but as wiat does not appear to have been a privy councelour , till near the end of k. henry's reign ; so it is plain enough , he was never disgraced , but continued to be still imploied by the king in some forreign embassies , to the end of his life . 30. he says , anne boleyn endeavoured , thô in vain , to engage sr. thomas more to negociate her affair ; but he being proof against all corruption , gardiner , that was a canonist , was made secretary of state , and was sent to rome with my-lord brian , who scandalised all rome with his lewd behaviour ; and had the impudence to assure the pope , that the queen desired to be divorced , that so she might retire into a monastery . and made other offers of great advantage to the pope , in case he would allow the divorce . mr. varillas cannot say too much in sr. thomas more 's commendation ; but since he was a man of so much sincerity , it is certain , that he approved of the divorce : for in a letter , that his own family printed among his other works , in q. mary's reign , he , writing to cromwel , owns , that he had approved of the divorce , and that he had great hopes of the king's success in it , as long as it was prosecuted in the court of rome , and founded on the defects that were pretended to be in the bull ; and after that most of the universities and of the learned men of europe had given their opinions in favours of the divorce , four years after it was first moved , he being then chancellour , went down to the house of commons and made those decisions to be read there , and upon that he desired the members of parliament to report in their countries , that which they had heard and seen ; and added these very words , and then all men will openly perceive , that the king has not attempted this matter for his will and pleasure , but only for the discharge of his conscience . upon wolsey's disgrace , he was made chancellour , and continued in that high trust almost three years ; which is an evident sign that he did not then oppose the divorce ; nor did he grow disgusted of the court , till he saw that the king was upon the point of breaking with the see of rome . so that he would have liked the divorce , if the pope could have been prevailed with to allow it ; but he did not approve of the king 's procuring it another way . mr. varillas is no happier in the other parts of this article : for gardiner was not sent first to rome , to negotiate this matter . knight that was secretary of state , was first imploied ; and gardiner was not made secretary of state , till near the end of this negotiation : nor was he ever sent to rome with brian : nor was brian a lord , but only a knight ; and it was a year after this sute was first begun , before brian was imploied in it ; so that he could carry no such deluding message to the pope , concerning the queen's desiring the divorce . and for this pretension of the queen's desiring to retire to a monastery , it was never made use of by the english ambassadours . it was on the contrary a notion of the pope's , who thought , that if that could be put in her head , it would be the easiest method of getting out of this uneasy matter : and therefore he ordered his legate card. campegio , to advise the queen to it . and for the scandals of brian's life , they must have been very great , if they gave offence at rome at that time : but as i can not answer much for brian , so i will not trouble my self to vindicate him ; but he could not behave him more indecently at rome , than campegio did in england , when he came over legate , who scandalised even the court with his lewd behaviour . 31. he says , the pope was sensible of his obligations to the king , and resolved to do all he could to gratify him , and so ordered cajetan to examine the matter , who did it in his manner , after the method of the schools . and here he gives us an abstract of his book . he laid this down for a maxime , that the high-priest under the n. testament had no less authority , than the high-priest had under the law of moses , who had power to allow of such mariages , to good ends and in good circumstances ; and that the end of this mariage was noble : that the crowns of england and spain being united , might send their fleets to block up constantinople . and that by this mariage , as italy was to be set at peace , so k. henry was diverted from marrying into families suspect of heresy : and that therefore the pope could not grant a dispensation for annulling it . and with his usual confidence , he cites on the margent cajetan's consultation . and this , he says , confirmed the pope in his resolution , not to grant the dispensation for breaking the mariage upon any terms whatsoever . i have given such authentick demonstrations of the falsehood of this particular , that i am sure the strongest fit of mr. varillas's religion can not resist them . for the pope , upon the first proposition , franckly granted the dispensation , and only consulted with some cardinals about the methods of doing it : and afterwards he sent one over to england , and promised , that he would do , not only all that he could grant either in law or justice ; but every thing else that he could grant out of that plenitude of power , with which he was vested in the king's favour . the pope also proposed a method , that perhaps would have brought the matter to an easier issue , which was , that if the king was satisfied in his own conscience concerning the divorce , in which he did not think that there was a doctor in the whole world , that could judg so well as himself , then he might put away his queen , and marry another , and then the pope would confirm all . for the crafty pope thought , it would be easier for him to confirm it , when it was once done , than to give authority to do it : and in short , the pope made the king still believe , that he would do it , till by that means he brought the emperour to grant him all he desired . and as for cajetan's opinion , i am now in a countrey where i cannot find his works , so i cannot be so positive in this matter ; but as far as my memory serves me , cajetan writ nothing with relation to this matter : but only in the body of his school-divinity , that he had published long before this sute began , he had set on foot a new opinion , touching the prohibitions of marrying in near degrees , which the church by a constant tradition had in all times lookt on as moral laws ; whereas he asserted , they were only positive precepts , that did not bind under the christian religion , and by consequence , that there was no law now against mariages in those degrees , but the law of the church , with which the pope might dispense . in all the books that i have seen , that were writ for the queen's cause , cajetan's authority is brought , as a thing already abroad in the world , and not as a consultation writ upon this occasion : and by what i remember of that cardinal's life , it is said , that in his reasonings with luther he had found himself so defective in the knowledg of the scripture , that whereas formerly he had given himself wholly to the study of school-divinity , he after that gave himself entirely to the study of the scripture , in which , making allowances for his ignorance of the original tongues , he succeeded to admiration . but thô i cannot procure a sight of his treatise concerning the degrees of mariage , the idea that i retain of his solide way of writing , makes me conclude , that he was not capable of writing in so trifling a manner , as mr. varillas represents the matter . for what man of sense could say , that the highpriest under the jewish religion could dispense with a brother's marrying his brother's widdow , in some cases : in case that a brother died without children , his brother , or the next of kin , might have married the widdow , by the dispensation that the law gave , and not by a dispensation of the highpriest . and for the ends that he pretends of those two princes , going to block up constantinople with their fleets , a man must be ignorant in history to the degree of mr. varillas , to imagine this , since as the kings of those times had no royal fleets , but were forced to hire merchant vessels , when they had occasion for them ; so the blocking up of constantinople was too bold a project for those days , and does not seem to have been so much as once thought on . and for the other ends that he mentions , thô the procuring such a peace to italy , as was for the interest of the popes , was a thing for which they would have sacrificed any thing ; yet this differs much from p. iulius the second 's character , who granted the dispensation , since his whole reign was a continued imbroilment of italy . nor does it appear that k. henry's mariage could have any influence on the peace of italy , unless it were very remote . and as for the other reason alledged for the mariage , that it diverted k. henry from marrying into families suspect of heresy , this is too great a violation of the costume ; for it seems mr. varillas had the present state of europe in his head , when he writ it : but cajetan could not write this , for in the year 1503 there were no families in europe suspect of heresy : so that all this reasoning , that is here entitled to cajetan , is a mass of mr. varillas's crude imaginations , which doe equally discover both his ignorance , and his want of judgment . 32. he accuses mr. beaucaire , for saying a thing , that was no way probable , when he affirms , that card. campegio caried over to england a bull annulling the mariage , which he was allowed to shew both to the king and to card. wolsey , but that this was only an artifice to procure him the more credit for drawing out the process into a great length . but when a writer rejects what he finds affirmed by another , that lived in the time concerning which he writs , he ought at least to give some reasons to justify his being of another mind ; since it is a little too bold for any man , of a temper more modest than that of mr. varillas , to deny a matter of fact , meerly because he thinks it is no way probable : but it is not only probable , but evidently true , as i have made it appear beyond all possibility of contradiction : for after that campegio had , according to his instructions , shewed the bull , both to the king and to wolsey , great endeavours were used at rome to procure an order for his shewing it to some of the king's ministers ; but the pope could not be prevailed on so far : and i have printed an original letter of iohn castalis , that contains a long conference that he had with the pope on this head ; by which it appears , that the only consideration that the pope had before his eyes in this whole matter , was the emperour's greatness , and his fears of being ruined , if he had made any further steps in that affair . 33. he says , that the queen having thrown her self at the king's feet , and made a very moving speech , the king was so far melted with it , that he said , he was contented to refer the matter to be judged by the pope in person , upon which she went out instantly , that so the king might not have time to recal that , which perhaps he had said a little too suddenly : and that she always claimed this promise , thô the king had no regard to it . here is a new fit of his religion , for it seems sanders felt not those vigorous motions , that were necessary to furnish out his scenes : and therefore , thô mr. varillas adds no discovery as to matters of fact , beyond what sanders had made , yet he has the more copious inventions of the two . but he does not place his contrivances judiciously , for it is much safer to dress up the secrets of the cabinet , than publick courts of judicature with such garnishings : and as that was the most solemn trial , that ever england saw , in which a king and queen appeared as delinquents , to be tried for incest , so the matter is not only particularly related by those that lived in that time , or soon after it ; but the journals of the court are yet in being , and by all these it appears , that as soon as the queen made that moving speech , she immediatly rise and went out , without staying for one word of answer . and in all that long sute that followed afterwards , for obliging the king to carry on the sute at rome , that depended for three years , this offer of the king 's , if it had any other being but that which mr. varillas's fiction gives it , would have been certainly alledged , for obliging the king to continue the process at rome ; but it was never so much as mentioned , so the honour of it belongs to mr. varillas . 34. he says , that in the process , as the king's advocates produced a letter , that card. hadrian had writ at the time of the granting the bull for the mariage , that he had heard p. iulius the second say , that he could not grant it , the queen's advocates produced likewise a letter of pope iulius to the king of england , that assured him , that thô he had not granted the bull as soon as it was demanded , that was not out of any intention to refuse it ; but that he had only waited for a favourable conjuncture , that so he might doe it the more deliberatly . this is of no consequence ; but some men get into ill habits , that engage them , even when there is no advantage to tell lies . the whole journals of this sute mention neither the one nor the other of these matters : there is somewhat like the second , of which some , it seems , had in discours given mr. varillas a dark hint , and he resolved to garnish it up the best he could . there was a breve of p. iulius's produced , but not writ to the king of england , for it was addressed to the kings of spain , and was indeed believed to be forged in spain . it was conceived in the very words of the bull for the mariage , and was of the same date , and the only difference between it and the bull was , that whereas the bull mentioned the queen's mariage with p. arthur , as having been perhaps consuminated , this spoke of the consummation of that mariage less doubtfully , and without a perhaps : and the inference that was made upon this was , that the spaniards foreseeing that the consummation of p. arthur's mariage would be proved , he forged this breve , to make it appear , that the pope was informed of that as of a thing certain , thô it was decent in the publick bull to mention it doubtfully . but mr. varillas shews how dangerous a thing it is to write history upon flying reports , helped up a little with the dull invention of an ill poet. 35. he runs out into a high commendation of the zeal and fidelity that some of the english bishops , who were named to be the queen's advocates , shewed in pleading her cause . but in this he shews , how little he understands the common forms of law : for since the queen declined the court , and appealed to the pope , there was no more occasion given to her advocates , to speak to the merits of her cause . and whereas he pretends , that this was done , not only by bp. fisher , but by the bishops of london , bath and ely , that was impossible , since all the bishops had signed a writing , which was produced before the legates , in which they all declared themselves against the lawfulness of the mariage . 36. he says , the pope recalled the cause , to be heard before himself , on this pretence , that the king had by word of mouth consented to it . this is a flight of our author's , to colour that shameful secret : for when the emperour had agreed to put florence into the hands of the medici , the pope who had seemed to favour the king's cause till that time , did then admit of the queen's appeal : and thô he had signed a formal promise , never to recal the cause , yet he being as little a slave to his word , as mr. varillas is to truth , broke his faith . but he never so much as once pretended this consent of the king 's . 37. he says , wolsey being disgraced , was sent to york , where he languished some time , being reduced almost to beggary . this comes in as a dash of his pen , to set out k. henry's severity : but one of wolsey's domesticks , that writ his life , tells us , in how great state he went to york , with a train of 160 horse , and an equipage of 72 carts following him with his houshold-stuf ; for the king restored him not only his archbishoprick of york , but also his bishoprick of winchester , which mr. varillas fancies he took from him : and it was impossible for a man , that had those two great benefices , to be reduced to any degrees of want. 38. he says , anne boleyn raised cranmer to the dignity of chief minister of state , who was one of the profligatest men of england , that had nothing of christianity in him , but the outward appearances , being ambitious , voluptuous , bold , turbulent and capable of all sorts of intrigues . he had studied long in germany , where he was infected with lutheranisme , thô he did not outwardly profess it . he took a concubine in germany , whom he afterwards married by the king's permission . he had been chaplain long in the family of boleyn , so when the see of canterbury fell vacant , anne boleyn presented him . the fit here is extream hot and long , and shews , how entirely mr. varillas was subdued by it , since it is hardly possible for a man to spit out more venome and falsehood at once . cranmer was never in the affairs of state , much less chief minister . and any ignorance less than mr ▪ varillas's would have found , that cromwel succeeded wolsey in the ministry . as for cranmers ambition , as he had passed the greatest part of his life in a secret retirement , so he was in germany when the see of canterbury fell vacant , and when he understood that the king intended to raise him to that dignity , he excused himself all he could , and delaied his return to england some months , that so the king might have time given him to change his mind . he was so far from being turbulent and hardy , and from being a man of intrigues , that his plain simplicity made him to be despised by his enemies , till they found that there was a wise conduct under all that mildness and slowness . and it was this simplicity , and his keeping himself out of all intrigues , that preserved him in k. henry's esteem . he never went to study in germany , but was sent into italy and germany to reason with the learned men in the universities concerning the king's divorce . he married a wife in germany , and was so far from obtaining the king's permission to marry her , that upon a severe law , that was afterwards made against the mariage of the clergy , he sent her into germany for some time , yet he franckly owned his mariage to the king , when he questioned him upon it , and there was never the least imputation laid upon his chastity , except this of his mariage , which we think none at all . he was never chaplain in the boleyn family , but lived private in cambridg , when the king came to hear of him , and to imploy him in the prosecution of the divorce . and so far was he from being presented by anne boleyn , upon the vacancy of canterbury , that he was then in germany . and now it appears what a secret mr. varillas has , of making as much falsehood go into one period , as would serve another to scatter up and down a whole book ; but we know the society that has this secret , and it is certain , that mr. varillas has learnt it to perfection . 39. he says , the king accepted cranmer upon condition , that he would pronounce the sentence of divorce between their majesties of england , in case that the pope ratified their contested mariage : and thus by a way so uncanonical he was made archbishop of canterbury . there was no occasion of demanding any such promise of cranmer , for he had openly declared his opinion , that the mariage was incestuous and unlawful , so that his judgment was already known . but mr. varillas shews how little he knew our matters , when he says , that cranmer was made archbishop in an uncanonical way ; for as he was chosen by the chapter of canterbury , so he had his bull from rome , and how little soever , this is canonical according to the canons of the ancient church , yet mr. varillas has no reason to except to the uncanonicalness of it . 40. he says , he was installed by another artifice , for being required to swear the oath to the pope , he had a notary by him , who attested , that he took this oath against his will , and that he would not keep it to the prejudice of the king. he made no protestation , that he took that oath against his will ; but he repeated a protestation twice at the high altar , that he intended not by that oath to the pope , to oblige himself to any thing , that was contrary to the law of god , to the king's prerogative , or to the laws of the land , nor to be restrained by it from proposing or consenting to any thing , that might concern the reformation of the christian faith , the government of the church of england , or the prerogatives of the king and kingdome . this is a different thing from protesting , that he took the oath against his will , which as it had been ridiculous in it self , so was very far contrary to that native singleness of heart , in which he always acted . 41. he says , there was an ancient law against the subjects of england's acknowledging a forreign jurisdiction , upon which the king raised a sute against his clergy , for owning the pope's jurisdiction , in that which was a mixt court , relating both to the temporal and the spiritual . and he adds , that the clergy had an easy answer to this charge , since that law had no regard to the spiritual authority . matters of law are things of too delicate a nature for so slight a man as mr. varillas to look into them . he represents this as one single law , that was very old , and that related only to temporals , whereas if he had known any thing of our laws , he would have seen , that there was a vast number of laws made in the reigns of many of our kings , such as edward the first , edward the third , richard the second , henry the 4th , and henry the 5th , all relating to this matter , and these laws were made in express words against all that brought bulls and provisions from rome to ecclesiastical benefices . 42. he says , the motions of the clergy in their own defence , could not but be feeble , since they had two such treacherous heads , as cranmer archbishop of canterbury , and lee archbishop of york , so they made a submission to the king , but he would not receive it , unless they would acknowledg , that he had the same authority over the ecclesiastical body , that he had over his other subjects : and thus , without thinking on what they did , they furnished the king with a pretence of calling himself , head of the church of england . cranmer was so little concerned in this matter , that it was past two years before he was archbishop , while warham was archbishop of canterbury ; for the submission was made in march 1531 , and he was consecrated in march 1533. and lee of york was so far from consenting to it , that he strugled long against it , after warham and his synode had past it . and whereas he pretends , that the king drew his pretence , to be head of the church of england , from a general acknowledgment that they had made of the king's authority over churchmen , this is so far from true , that the whole clergy , even his admired fisher not excepted , did in the title of the submission , to which they all set their hands , call the king in so many formal words , supream head of the church and clergy of england , in so far as was agreable to the law of christ : and this was done during more 's ministry , who continued chancellour 15 months after this . 43. he says , that upon more 's laying down his office , the king gave the seals to another churchman , that was no less devoted to him than granmer , whose name was andley , on whom he bestows a character , thô he knows nothing concerning him . andley was no churchman , but a common lawyer as more was , that had been chancellour before him , and the gentlemen of that robe being raised upon merit , and not by their birth , his low extraction was no extraordinary matter . 44. he says , the king finding that the pope was ofraid , that he should contract a secret mariage with anne boleyn , resolved to do it , on design to do the pope a spite ; so the day being set , one polland a priest , being appointed to do the office , demanded the pope's bull for the mariage , which he was made believe that the king had procured ; but the king swore to him , that he had it in his closet , and that nothing made him not go immediatly to fetch it , but his unwillingness to retard that action . this is so ill told , that mr. varillas ought to have imploied a little of his religious zeal , to make it more plausible ; for it was then so well understood , that the pope was entirely united to the emperour , that polland lee could not imagine there was any bull granted ; and he was all his life of too complying a temper , to need such artifices to oblige him to do any thing , that might serve to advance him . mr. varillas represents the king here too much like a private gentleman , that keeps his papers in his own closet , of several popes , the canons of many synodes and councils , ●nd by the concurring testimonies of almost all the greek and latin fathers , both ancient and modern , and by the agreeing doctrines both of schoolmen , canonists and casuists ; and if tradition was the true expounder of scripture , and the sure conveyance of doctrine , the mariage was certainly incestuous ; so that according to the fundamental doctrine of the church of rome , the mariage was unlawful : and by the same authorities it was also proved , that the pope's dispensation could not make void the law of god , and that the clergy of england were the proper judges of what fell out in england . this being the state of that matter , and almost all the universities of europe , that of bologna it self not excepted , thô it was the pope's own town , having declared in the king's favours , it was no wonder , if cranmer , upon such grounds , proceeded to give sentence . 47. he dresses up a speech for card. bellay , all out of his own fancy ; but one thing is remarkable : he makes the cardinal represent to the king , that if he went to separate himself from the communion of the church of rome , either he would succeed in it , or not ; if he succeeded in it , besides that he put himself in a state of damnation , there would be no place found that would be safe for his sacred person , against the attempts of zealous catholicks , who would endeavour to kill him , that they might preserve their ancient religion ; and if he succeeded not , he might be assured , that he would lose both his crown and his life in a general revolt . mr. varillas is now in a fit of religion of another sort , for as there are hot and cold fits of agues ▪ so if some of his fits make him forget the obligations of speaking truth , this makes him speak out a truth indeed , but of that nature , that if he had been long practised in the secrets of the court of rome , or of the jesuite order , he would have known , that thô during the minority of a king , a cardinal perron might speak it boldly , or during the confusions of a civil war , the whole sorbonne might declare in favours of it , yet under such a reign , and in the present conjuncture , it was to be denied boldly . and one would not have thought , that at this time a clement or a ravilliae would have had no worse character , but that of zealous catholicks . so we have now an entire notion of a zealous catholick from mr. varillas : he does not trouble himself to examine what he says , whither it is true or false , nor will he stick at any crime , if it may tend to preserve his religion . and if a prince goes about to change his religion , and to depart from the communion of the see of rome , he must at first look for a general revolt , which must end in his deprivation and death , and if that fails , there is a reserve of zealous catholicks , who will pursue him into every corner , and never give over , till they have sacrificed him to the interest of their religion . this is the severest thing that the greatest ennemy to their church could possibly object to it ▪ and yet mr. varillas has so little judgment , as to put it in the mouth of a cardinal . but it is but lately that he has got his pension , and he has not past a long noviciat , or perhaps he is now too old to learn the refayings , that his pattern mr. maimbourg would have taught him , who in such a reign as this is in france , must dress up their religion as a doctrine , all made up of obedience and submission . but perhaps some had told mr. varillas , that the late articles of the clergy lookt like the beginning of a separation from the court of rome , so that he thought , it was fit to let the king know his danger , if he went a step further , either in that matter , or in a reformation of religion , of which there has been so much noise made lately in france , thô it is visible that this has been set on foot , meerly to deceive those , that had a mind to cosen themselves by the hopes of some amendments , to make shipwrack of their faith and of a good conscience . 48. he makes the hopes , that the cardinal bellay had of succeeding in his negotiation , to be chiefly founded on the king's being weary of anne boleyn , and his becoming in love with iane seimour ; and that therefore he concluded that time , and a little patience might infallibly dispose him to return back again to queen katherine . he makes here strange discoveries in the matters of love , since he fancies , that the king 's falling in love with a new mistress , might dispose him to return to his old and abandoned queen . the thing is also so falsely timed , that it was two years and almost a half after this , before there appeared any beginnings , either of the king's dislike of anne boleyn , or of his love to iane seimour . but the made up of obedience and submission . but perhaps some had told mr. varillas , that the late articles of the clergy lookt like the beginning of a separation from the court of rome , so that he thought , it was fit to let the king know his danger , if he went a step further , either in that matter , or in a reformation of religion , of which there has been so much noise made lately in france , thô it is visible that this has been set on foot , meerly to deceive those , that had a mind to cosen themselves by the hopes of some amendments , to make shipwrack of their faith and of a good conscience . 48. he makes the hopes , that the cardinal bellay had of succeeding in his negotiation , to be chiefly founded on the king's being weary of anne boleyn , and his becoming in love with iane seimour ; and that therefore he concluded that time , and a little patience might infallibly dispose him to return back again to queen katherine . he makes here strange discoveries in the matters of love , since he fancies , that the king 's falling in love with a new mistress , might dispose him to return to his old and abandoned queen . the thing is also so falsely timed , that it was two years and almost a half after this , before there appeared any beginnings , either of the king's dislike of anne boleyn , or of his love to iane seimour . but the true account of this last negotiation of the cardinal de bellay is that at marseilles : the pope had promised to francis the first , that if k. henry would submit the matter to him , and send a proxy to rome , he would judg in his favours against the queen , because he knew that his cause was just and good ; and the cardinal was sent over to induce the king to make his submission ; but the king would not upon verbal promises make so great a step , yet he promised that , if assurances were sent him , that were formal and binding , he would upon that send a submission in full form to rome , and when the cardinal procured these from the court of rome , the king did send over the submission . so that mr. varillas having supprest the true account of this negotiation , he thought he must make it up with somewhat of his own invention : and as all liquors drawn out of a musty barrel tast of the calk ; so there are so many characters that belong to mr. varillas's imagination , that it is hard for him to venture on inventing , without discovering , that he has full as little judgment as he has sincerity . 49. he lays the blame of the slowness of the courier , on the care that the emperour's ministers had taken , to stop the passages . but this was a ridiculous observation : for there being a day set for the courier's return , he hapned only to come two days after his time , and it being in the winter , in which the sea was to be twice past , there is no need to run to any other speculation for a slowness of two days in such a voyage , and at such a season ; but it is often observed of those , that have contracted ill habits , as lying in particular , that their naughty customes return upon them , even when there is no provocation lying on them , to tempt them to them ; so mr. varillas has given himself such a liberty , to interweave his own fancies with all the transactions that he relates , that he cannot let the flightest thing pass without bringing in a stroak of his politicks to adorn it . 50. he says , the pope having past sentence against the king , the king did upon that hold a parliament on the 24 of april , 1534 , in which he made himself to be acknowledged supream head of the churches of england and ireland ; and got his former mariage to be condemned , and his second to be confirmed , upon which q. katherine died of grief . in such publick things mr. varillas should be wiser than to venture on the giving of dates , for it is at least two to one that he gives them wrong . the parliament , that past all these laws , sate down on the 15th of ianuary , and was prorogued on the 29th of march , and sentence was given against the king at rome the 23 of march : for the truth is , the king did not expect sincere dealing from the court of rome , and therefore he looking on this last proposition as a delusion , to divert him from passing the acts , that he had projected for this session , resolved to go on with his design , knowing that if the pope would grant him that which he desired , it would not be uneasy for him to get those acts repealed . q. katherine lived two years after this ; so that , thô the melancholy , which this gave her , did very likely shorten her days , yet it was too poetical , to make her just to die at the end of that parliament . 51. he says , that the king upon the first informations of anne boleyn's disorders , would not believe them ; but at last he found such proofs , as fully convinced him , upon which he waited , till he found a fit opportunity , to let his jealousy break out . it agrees ill with what he had said before , that k. henry was become weary of anne boleyn , to make him now so uneasy to believe ill of her ; for nothing disposes so much to jealousy , as a dislike already conceived , which naturally inclines one to think ill of a person whom he does not love ; but it is certain k. henry never pretended , that he saw any thing , that was dishonourable in her : and the ridiculous tale of the tilling at greenwich was a ly too ill contrived , to be again taken up ; for the queen 's dropping a handkerchief , was a favour of too publick a nature , and is not at all credible , considering that she found the king's affections were straying from her . and even that was too slight a matter , to have wrought her ruin , thô it had been true . 52. he says , her own father was one of her judges , but thô she made a cunning defence , yet she was condemned together with four of her adulterers , and after that she went to meet death , with more of fierceness , than of a true greatness of soul , and she died as exactly in all the maximes of the stoical philosophy , as if she had studied them . this assertion of her father's being one of her judges , has past so current , that i have no reason to charge mr. varillas for it , because i my self yeelded to the current of writers ; yet having procured a sight of the original record of her process , i found it was a falsehood , and in the end of my first volume i had corrected the errour in which i had fallen : so i must at least conclude , that mr. varillas never read any history . the queen had a strange plea , for there was not one witness brought against her , so that she was condemned meerly upon testimonies that were brought in writing , which is expresly contrary to our law. as for her behaviour at her death , it was far from being stoïcal , for it was rather too cheerful ; and the lieutenant of the tower , who knew her behaviour better than any person whatsoever , gives a very different representation of it , for in his letter to court he tells of her great devotion , of her cheerfulness and of the protestations that she made of her innocence the morning before she died , when she received the sacrement , adding , that her almoner was still with her , and had been with her ever since two a clock after midnight . and he also says , that she had much joy and pleasure in her death . and as all this is very far from the maximes of the stoical philosophy , so it seems mr. varillas understands very little what they were , otherwise , if he had remembred what a picture he had made of anne boleyn , he must have known , that the amourous disposition that he had fastned on her , agreed very ill with a stoical unconcernedness and equality of temper . but this he thought was a pretty conclusion of one of the scenes of his piece . and now being as weary of this ungrateful imployment , as any reader , or as even mr. varillas himself must needs be , i find my self at great ease , being no more obliged to turn over so very ill a book . and since in the survey of one of the shortest of the ten books , of which that work consists , i have found so many capital errours , in most of which there is a complication of divers mistakes in the same period ; to how much publick shame must mr. varillas be exposed , if those , who are concerned , examine the other books , as i have done this . i expect no other justice from himself , but that he will reckon all this scorn , that such a discovery must bring upon him , as a meritorious suffering at the hands of hereticks , and that he will use it as an argument to raise his pension . but it will be a great happiness if others can learn , thô at his cost , to write with more truth and greater caution . the design of all revealed religion is , to heighten in us those seeds of probity , vertue and gentleness , that are in our nature , and i will not stick to say , that it were better for mankind , that there were no revealed religion at all in being , and that humane nature should be left to it self , than that there were such a sort of a revealed religion received , that overthrows all the principles of morality , and that instead of making men sincere , teaches them to be false , and instead of inspiring them with love and mercy , enflames them with rage and cruelty , and it is likely , that m. varillas will easily find out , what that society is , of which i mean. for he deserves well to be at least one of the lay-brothers of the order , if not to fill up mr. maimbourg's room , and then the order will not lose by the change much of a quality , that has been believed to be almost an essential ingredient in its constitution , which gave occasion to a very pleasant passage , that , as i was told , fell out at amiens within these 20 years . all the companies of tradesmen in the church of rome choose a saint for their patron , and the many new invented trades have put some bishops to hard shifts to give proper saints , which has produced some very ridiculous patronages , for the cooks have the assumption for their feast , because the two first sillables assum signifies roasted ; and when the needle-makers at paris asked of the cardinal gondy a patron , he could not easily find out a saint that had any relation to their trade , but he advised them to take all-saints , for it could not be thought , but that some one or other of the saints had made needles ; but the bishop of amiens gave ignatius loyola to be the patron of the packers , now the word emballeur , as it signifies a packer , it passes also for a trepan ; so the packers being satisfied with the bishop's nomination , had ignatius up on his day in a procession , upon which the jesuites were offended , to see their patron pretended to by such a company of mechanicks , and sued the packers upon it , they defended themselves upon the account of their bishop's naming him to them , and when the bishop was asked why he had given him for their patron , he alluding to the other signification of the word emballeur said , that he had observed that all the emballeurs of europe were under that saint's patronage . but it is not necessary to infer from hence , that mr. varillas has a just claim to his protection , for thô he seems to have very good inclinations , yet he wants the address that is necessary to recommend him to so refined a society , and to a perfection in it , that cost mr. maimbourg a whole jubily for a novitiat ; for thô seven years is enough to learn an ordinary trade , yet 50 is necessary to furnish a man with a sufficient stock of impudence for so hardy an imployment . advertisement . i have at last found card. cajetan's works , and am now confirmed in that , which was only a conjecture , when i writ upon the 31st article , pag. 141 ; for it is hard even to guess wrong , when it is in contradiction to mr. varillas : and as the reasons that he put in cajetan's mouth , had such manifest characters of his own ignorance and hardiness , that i could not so much as doubt of the imposture , yet i was not positive , till i had taken some pains to find out cajetan's works , and there i saw my conjectures were well grounded . that volume in which he delivers his opinion in the matter of the obligation of the levitical law concerning the degrees of mariage , was writ long before this dispute of k. henry's was started ; for it is dedicated to pope leo the tenth . and instead of all those impertinencies , with which mr. varillas calumniates him , and of which none less ignorant than himself , is capable , all that cajetan says is that , whereas thomas aquinas was of opinion , that those degrees were moral , and of eternal obligation , he in his commentary declares himself of another mind , but takes a very backward method to prove it , yet such as was sutable enough to the blindness of the time in which he writ ; for he proves that they are not moral , only because the pope dispenced with them , who could not dispence with the moral law , and he gives for instance the mariage of the king of portugal , to which he adds these words , the present queen of england had likewise consummated her former mariage with the late brother of the king of england her husband . so that cajetan was only driven to this opinion , that he might justify the practises of the court of rome . and it appears by what he says concerning it , that it was considered at rome as an undoubted truth , that the queen's first mariage with prince arthur was consummated : and so it is sufficiently apparent , how impudent mr. varillas is in the abstract , that he charges on cardinal cajetan's memory , it was far from his way of reasoning , to talk of fleets blocking up constantinople ; but mr. varillas , who knows little of the past time , and fancies that matters went formerly as they go now , had perhaps the low estate in which the otthoman empire is at present , or the bombarding of genoa in his eye , when he thought of the sending fleets against constantinople above 180 year ago ; but this speculation was as much out of cajetan's way , as it is sutable to mr. varillas . page 250 he says , king henry the eighth had opposed the mariage of his sister to the king of scotland with so much violence , that it brought on him several fits of an ague . but that mariage being made in august 1502 , the young prince was not then 11 years old , and this is too early even for a poët to make matters of state to have gone so deep into his thoughts , as that they endangered his health . but as the legends of saints represent them in extasies , before they have past their childhood , so mr. varillas thought it sutable to the rest of his poëm , to represent k. henry even in his infancy as transported with the violence of impetuous passions . but i am afraid i lay too much to his charge , since i do not believe that he had examined the history of his life so critically , as to know even his age ; but it is a sad thing for an ignorant man , not to have a chronological table always before him . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a30405-e110 pag. 5. lib. 9. pag. 249. pag. 6. p. 226. 228. ● 240. p. 239. illudqu● carnali ●●●pula for● consummavi etiamsi matrim●nium f●rit per ●●●●nalem ●●●pulam ●●●●summa●● p. 232. ibid. p. 235. p. 2●6 . p. 237 ▪ p. 240 , 24● ●orison . p. 244. p. 245. ibid. p. 246. p. 248. p. 250. p. 2●1 . p. 252. ibid. ibid. ibid. p. 257. p. 258. p. 259. p. 260. ibid. p. 261. p. 263 , &c ▪ p. 266. p. 278. ibid. ● . 269 , & ●70 . p. 272. p. 274. p. 277. ibid. ● . 278. ibid. p. 2●1 . ibid. ibid. p. 2●2 . ibid. p ▪ 283. ibid. p. 286. p. 287. p. 287. ibid. p. 288. p. 289. p. 250. notes for div a30405-e10930 2da 2dae quaest . 15 art. 9. moderna quoque regina angliae consummaverat prius matrimoniu● cum olim fratre istius regis angli sui marit reflections on the relation of the english reformation, lately printed at oxford burnet, gilbert, 1643-1715. 1688 approx. 168 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 52 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a30406) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 60978) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 272:2) reflections on the relation of the english reformation, lately printed at oxford burnet, gilbert, 1643-1715. [2], 96 p. printed for j.s., amsterdam : 1688. a reply to: church government. part v. a relation of the english reformation. oxford, 1687. attributed generally to obadiah walker, but written by abraham woodhead [i.e., r.h.]. cf. jones, t. catalogue ... of tracts for and against popery. pt. 2 (p. 39-96) has special t.p. with title: reflections on the oxford theses, relating to the english reformation. attributed to gilbert burnet. cf. halkett & laing (2nd ed.). reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng r. h., 1609-1678. -church government. -part v. -relation of the english reformation. church of england -government. reformation -england. 2003-10 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-10 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-11 rina kor sampled and proofread 2003-11 rina kor text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-12 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion reflections on the relation of the english reformation , lately printed at oxford . part i. amsterdam : printed for i. s. 1688. reflections on the relation of the english reformation , &c. the first part. the introduction . we have been long in expectation of some extraordinary productions of the eminent convert of oxford . his age , his learning , and the present conjuncture hath raised that expectation very high ; and tho the ill success of his discourses concerning the presence in the sacrament , and the adoration of it , hath sunk his reputation to a great degree ; it having appeared that he neither writes exactly , nor sincerely , which hath lessened him much in the opinion of those , who expected great things from him . yet it was thought that matters of history would succeed better in his hand ; for it hath been long believed , that he had examined those transactions very critically ; so that when i heard that he had undertaken this subject , i expected great discoveries from him , and fancied that instead of extracts out of fuller and heylin , we should have found records , originals , papers , and the cotton-library , often cited . so it may be easily apprehended how much i was surprised , when i found a book of such a volume , in which there was not the least discovery of any new matters of fact ; and that there was nothing in it , but a tedious repetition ( very ill expressed in rough english ) of arguments that have been over and over again , both made and refuted ; together with a representation of the state of affairs in the last age , that was partly defective , and partly false . it seemed strange to me at first view , to see so large a book writ and printed eight years after that dr. burnet's history of the reformation had appeared , without its taking the least notice of that work , which hath been so well received , so much read , and which seems to be so well confirmed by the proofs that accompany it , that few books of history have gained a more general reputation than it hath done ; and as none of the roman-communion have been able hitherto , to say any thing for the disparagement of that work , except mr. varillas ; so he hath been so severely exposed by the dr. that this attempt hath raised its credit , instead of lessening of it . it is true , this book seems to be a part of a great work , and to have been writ many years ago . for as this appears in many parts of it , so more remarkably in one passage , that shews it was written in the interval between his late majesties being re-established in his throne , and the restauration of bishops ; and therefore , when this book was writ , the author could not vouch other historians , than such as had then appeared : yet , since the printing of it was delayed so long ; and since it is believed , that the author and the publisher is the same person , he might have given himself the trouble to have reviewed his work , or at least to have added some appendix relating to that more copious and authentical account which dr. burnet hath given us of our reformation . for if the dr. hath deceived the world by a false representation of matters ; yet it must be confessed , that he hath done it with so good a grace , and with such appearances of sincerity , and of proving what he relates , and that both our countrymen and forreigners have read that work so much ( as appears by the several impressions at home , and the several translations that have been printed beyond sea ) that it was too great an omission in the author of this recital , if he be still alive , that he hath never mentioned that history , nor said any thing to ruin the reputation it hath gained . i am , i confess , much inclined to believe , that he who hath published this book , could not have writ it . for as there is nothing in it that answers the reputation he hath in the world ; so the time of writing it , seems a demonstration that he cannot be the author of it . for what opinion can we have of a mans conscience , of his probity , or his honour , that could write such a book against the reformation , and the church of england in the year 1660. and yet could continue in the communion of our church , concurring not only in the acts of our daily worship , but mixing with us in the holy sacrament twenty five years after this ! such a criminal compliance hath so many foul characters upon it , that after all the charity to which a man can carry his thoughts , he can scarce know how to have one good thought of a person capable of so black and such a long continued dissimulation , both towards god and man. whether oaths and subscriptions have not come in wise to enhance the guilt of so horrid a dissimulation , i do not know ; but even tho that hath not been in the case , god and man hath been sufficiently mocked . this is that which makes me very unwilling to believe that the author of this book could continue in all the acts of visible communion with this church , so many years after he writ it ; tho i confess he speaks so softly , and with so little detestation of the compliance of the popish clergy in edward the 6th's time , that this looks too like a man that was resolved to venture on the same guilt ; for he tells us in his harsh stile , that the perpetual outward compliance of some other bishops contrarily affected , since there preceded before it penalties and fears , and the seeing of the prime bishops to be imprisoned and ejected for standing out , is far from an authentical consent , and unjustly reckoned as such . for tho none can know mens hearts , but by their outward appearances , yet where mens votes are asked , after penalties , imprisonments of others , threats , &c. which are so strong motives of dissimulation . now all that conform in these , are to be presumed compliers , and none free voters . and afterwards without expressing any horror at it , he owns , that many of the inferior clergy remained still of the old religion ; which he goes about to prove by several reasons . and yet after all this , there was nothing to be apprehended in k. edward's days , by such of the clergy as would not receive the reformation , but the loss of their benefices ; which ( if we are not mistaken in the man ) our author felt to be such a strong motive of dissimulation , that he resolved to be overcome by it . if a single act of impious worship against a mans conscience , was thought so heinous a crime by the primitive church , that it could not be expiated , but by a penitence of many years continuance ; then certainly , the same sin repeated in the course of so many years , against such clear convictions of conscience , must be confessed to be so heinous a transgression , that according to the spirit of the primitive times , such an offender could have expected no other grace , but to obtain the peace of the church in his last agonies . to see a man change , is natural , especially where a present interest is the motive ; but it is a degree of impiety , of which one would hope there are few men capable to lye so long , and so solemnly both to god and man. but i come now to look a little more narrowly into the matter of this treatise . i will not at all engage my self to examine a great many passages that are cited in it , out of some of our authors , and in particular out of dr. heylin , and mr. thorndike : when we object to those of the church of rome some things out of erasmus or cassander ; or for historical matters , when we cite p. paul or thuanus ; we know with how much neglect they put by these authorities , as if they were not concerned in them ; tho these persons lived and dyed in the visible communion of their church . and i do not see why we may not take the same liberty with such writers , that tho they have been in communion with our church , yet have it seems continued in it with some difficulty . and it will not appear very strange if at the end of our civil wars those persons , who saw the ill effects of some ill principles very apparently were carried by the impressions which those confusions made upon them , to oppose those disorders by an over-bending of their notions to the other extream . for this is an excess to which the humane nature is so liable , that it were a wonder if all writers , especially men of warm tempers , that had been sower'd by ill usage , had been preserved from it ; so that i will wholly wave all that he cites from these or any others of our authors , and will come to the matters themselves . chap. i. of the importance of those matters objected to the reformation , supposing them all true . the disputes that we had with the church of rome were at first managed with more sincerity by our adversaries , than they have been of late ; they justified their church in those points for which we accused her , and objected the strongest things they could to ours ; but when they felt their cause too weak to be maintained by fair methods , then they betook themselves to others that were indeed less sincere , but yet were more apt to make impressions on weak minds . in france , and among us , three new methods have appeared of late years . the first was to take off men from entring into the merits of the cause , and to prepossess them with such prejudices against the reformation , as might lead them to condemn it without examining : to a discerning mind this method furnishes the strongest of all prejudices against those who use it ; this shews such a distrust of the cause it self , and it discovers it self so plainly to be a trick , that it gives every man a just ground of indignation against those who fly to it : besides , that it affords a good plea to all men to continue in the religion in which they were born and bred , without hearkning to any new discoveries ; for if the grounds upon which the reformation was made , were good , it signifies little to an enquirer into truth , whether this work was set on foot , and managed with all the exactness and regularity that might have been desired , or not . truth is always truth , from what hand soever it comes ; and the right way to find it out , is to free our minds from all prejudices , that so we may examine matters with unprepossessed understandings . a second method is to perswade the world that we have not yet understood one another ; that popery hath only appeared odious , because it was misrepresented to the world in false colours , but that it will be found to be quite another thing if it is truly represented . the bishop of meaux had the honour to begin this piece of legerdemain ; our men of the mission here have too slender a stock of their own , and therefore they give us the french mode in controversie , as well as our gallants do it in cloaths ; so they have thought to do wondrous feats with this method of representing ; but the want of sincerity of that prelate , in this as well as in other things , hath been so evidently made out , that if some men had not a secret that makes them proof against all discoveries , he would be a little out of countenance ; and our representers here are so exposed , that nothing is wanting for their conviction , but a sense of that shame with which they have been covered ; it is indeed a strange piece of confidence in men , to come and offer to convince the world , that after disputes of 150 years continuance , neither side hath understood the state of the controversie : and tho the same decrees of councils , and the same forms of worship are still received ; yet all these things must of a sudden so change their nature , that in defiance of all that , which upon other occasions , they say in behalf of tradition , a new discovery should be made , giving us new senses of all those things ; but whatsoever success that book may have had , where a plundering army managed the argument , yet it is become now as ridiculous here , as it is pretended to have been successful beyond sea. a third method is the setting up the credit of oral tradition , not upon the authority of some passages of scripture , but upon this general topic , that one age must needs have delivered the same faith to the succeeding age , that it had received from that which went before it ; and by consequence , that we must have in the present age , the same doctrine which the apostles delivered at first , 17 ages ago . it was found , that the authority of the church could not well be founded on passages of scripture , for then we must be allowed first to believe the scripture , and its authority and genuineness , and then to inquire into the meaning of those passages , and to examine to which of all the different churches that are in the world , they do belong : now it was apparent , that if it were once allowed , that we may carry our enquiries so far as to be able to settle our selves in these points , then this infallible authority is not so necessary to us , as they would make us believe , since we are supposed to have found good proofs for believing the scriptures , and for discovering the true meaning of the hardest passages in them , without its help . now this would spoil all , and throw out those arguments that perswade us of the necessity of an infallible judg , both for our finding out , and for our expounding the scriptures ; they are now sensible of all this , and see that it is a very false method of arguing to prove the scriptures by the church , when the church must be first proved by the scriptures ; and therefore they do betake themselves to the infallibility of oral tradition , founding it upon this general topic , that all the men of one age must needs have instructed the following age in the same faith that they had received from the former age , and upon this a great many imaginary impossibilities are reckoned up to shew , that this could not fail , and so they infer the certainty of this method of conveyance . now this is so extravagantly ridiculous , and so contrary to the common experience of all mankind , that all that can possibly be said to support it , signifies no more but to shew how many fine things a man of wit can say to prove the impossibility of a thing which yet every man of sense knows is not only possible , but is so certain an effect of such an oral conveyance , that it is rather impossible it should not fail . how was the first oral tradition of the religion delivered to adam , corrupted ? tho the long lives of the first patriarchs is a much stronger argument for proving the impossibility of such a corruption , than any that these gentlemen can alledg . how was the jewish religion corrupted in our saviour's time , tho the only scene of their solemn worship being at ierusalem , and the assembling of their whole nation in their temple , three times a year , are much stronger inducements to make us conclude that it was impossible for an oral conveyance to miscarry among them , than any that can be pretended to amongst christians . do we not see that the most common transactions are so diversified after they have passed through a few hands , that truth is very soon lost , when it hath no better standard than fame and chat ? do not all languages change so much in a course of some ages , that those who lived here 500 years ago , would be no more understood , if they were now among us ; and yet it were easie to point out the infallibility of the conveyance of a language with much livelier colours than these men can lay on here . if oral tradition hath any pretension to certainty , it must be chiefly with relation to such things as are sensible and visible , and that fall under the observation of all men ; for in matters that are speculative , it is natural for every man to dress them according to those explications with which he cloaths them ; and if his reputation either for piety , learming , or a true understanding of matters is established , it is so probable , that these will be so well received , that what was believed in one age in some general words , will be believed in another , with the addition of those new explications , that it were indeed a wonder if it were otherwise , especially in ages of ignorance and superstition : if it is found that in things which are sensible , this oral tradition is so certainly changed , that we are as sure of it as we ean possibly be of any matter of history ; then it is a vain thing to go about to perswade us , that this is an infallible conveyance in matters of doctrine , since it is plain , that the one is much more like to be sure , than the other can ever be supposed to be . if in the worship of god the adoration of images and saints , and an infinity of new rites are brought in ; if in the sacrament , the adoration of it , the denying the cup to all except the priest , the denying the sacrament to infants ; if in the government of the church the popes have not only brought the other bishops to become subject to them , but have broke through the authority of metropolitans , and the equality that was setled between themselves and the other patriarchs , tho these things were enacted by the first general councils ; if popes have got possession of an authority over princes , when they were either hereticks , or were favourers of hereticks , and have maintained this possession these last 600 years ; if , i say , all these things , which are not only sensible , but are very contrary to those inclinations and interests , that are the powerful springs of human nature , have yet been brought into the world so manifestly , is it any wonder , if in dark ages ( in which a blind obedience , and an unreserved submission to church-men were looked on as the chief branches of catholick religion ) a great many new doctrines , that were infinitely for the advantage of a corrupt and designing clergy were introduced and received : instead of wondring at the success of all these innovations , we should have had much more reason to wonder if they had not prevailed . but upon the whole matter , all these new methods shew us , that those who manage them , see the weakness of the old ones , and that their cause cannot be maintained on that bottom , on which the writers of controversy had at first put it ; and that therefore they must a little change their way ; and this being an age , in which wit and fine thoughts are highly valued , those who fancied they were masters in those , hoped to raise a sunk cause ; which how successful soever it may be , when it is managed by dragoons , yet hath never appeared more naked and despicable , than it hath done of late years . therefore they have given this new air and turn to the common subjects of the authority of the church , and of tradition , and have betaken themselves to the certainty of oral tradition , as their last retrenchment ; and after all those declamations that have been made of late , against those who pretended not to carry the assurance of our religion beyond a moral certainty , they now fly to a plea , which if it were true , is but at most a moral certainty ; but is so far from being true , that we have as much certainty as we can have for a negative proposition , that it is and ever must be false . the author of this treatise offers us a new essay of one of these late methods ; for instead of attacking our reformation in any of its essential parts , he goes about only to prove that it was not canonical ; and all this , when it were granted to be true , amounts to no more than this , that the corruptions of the church of rome having been extreamly advantageous to the clergy , the greater part of them were too much locked up in ignorance , and too much addicted to their interests to admit of any change ; and that therefore the lesser part was forced to make use of the civil-power to support them in reforming those abuses . but this must be acknowledged to be lawful ; otherwise all national-reformations from received errors , are no more to be thought on . for , suppose an error hath overspread a national church , which is a supposition that none can deny , since how infallible soever the catholick church may be supposed to be , it is past dispute , that every particular church may be so over-run with errors , that the greater part may be infected ; and if this falls to be in a conjuncture , in which a general council cannot be called ; and if the heresy is new , such , as for instance the pelagian was , when it first appeared ; so that it had spread far before it had been condemned by a general council ; what must be done in such a case , if the prince may not support the sounder , tho the lesser part ? so that according to this supposition , if those doctrines and forms of worship that were reformed in the last age , were erroneous or idolatrous , than any supposed irregularities that might be in the way of managing it , can never blemish that work. it is certain , that all rules are only for quiet times ; in the days of peace and order , the transgressing of established rules , is without doubt a very censurable thing ; but this must not be applied to all times . for , tho in a setled time we know how much respect we owe to judges and ministers of state ; yet if these very persons will go to set on a rebellion , and authorize it , all that respect ought presently to be thrown off . chap. ii. some general considerations upon what is alledged of the uncanonical proceedings in the progress of our reformation . it hath a very ill grace to see a man of the roman communion talk so highly of the obligation to obey the canons of the church , so as almost to vnchurch us , upon some supposed irregularities in our reformation . for what is the whole constitution of the papacy , but one continued contradiction to all the ancient cannons ? and what is the whole modern canon law , but the exaltation of the papal authority , above all the canons of the church ? is there any thing clearer in the primitive times , than the establishing the authority of metropolitans , that was confirmed by the council of nice ; the equalling the bishops of constantinople to the bishops of rome , which was done by the 2d and 4th general council ; the establishing the independency of those churches that were in possession of it , and so freeing them from all subordination to other sees , which was done by the 3d general council ? and yet , tho here we see the four first general councils , all concurring to establish this form of government , the papal-power is no other than a breaking in upon all these canons . what is more uncanonical than the establishing legatine courts , the receiving of appeals , the obliging of bishops to sue for their bulls in the court of rome ; the dispensing with all the canons of the church , the exempting all the regulars from obedience to their bishops , which is not only contrary to the express canon of the council of chalcedon , but is plainly contrary to that authority that bishops derive from christ to govern the flocks committed to their care . in short , the whole system of the church and court of rome , is so direct a revolt from all the primitive canons , that it is a degree of confidence , which i do not envy in our author , for him to talk of uncanonical proceedings . canons are rules established , either by provincial synods , or more general councils , which import no more but that they ought to be commonly observed ; for it is plain , that there is no church in the world , that hath looked on the canons of the former times , as things so sacred and unalterable , that they could never be dispensed with . the schism of the two popes at rome and avignon , and all that was done in consequence of it , was uncanonical with a witness ; and yet how was all that buried by the council of constan●● ? and tho one of the two obediences was certainly in a state of schism , yet all that was passed over , and without any submission of either side , all was healed up . the whole constiution of metropolitans with their provincial synods , which was the ancientest and clearest of all the primitive rules , arises only out of the several divisions of the provinces of the roman empire ; when then the civil constitution of all europe is so much altered from what it was then ; all that fabrick subsists now rather upon a respect to ancient rules , than from the authority of those canons , which can no more remain , the ground upon which they were built , being now removed . and one may as well pretend that we are bound to obey the old roman law , or the feudal law , because those laws were once received amongst us ; as to tell us , that we are bound to obey all the ancient canons , especially those that had a visible relation to the constitution of the roman empire . therefore the subordination of churches , of synods , and metropolitans , and patriarchs , that was only the knitting into one body , and under several degrees of subordination , a church that was all under one civil society and empire , hath sunk with the roman empire . so that the tearing that empire in pieces , hath quite put an end to all that ecclesiastical subordination . and if there is any thing of that yet kept up amongst us , it is rather for the preserving of order , than that we are under any obligation of conscience to submit to such constitutions . and therefore , as oft as a great conjuncture of affairs carries along with it considerations that are of more weight , than the adhering to ancient forms , then all these may be well superseded . for all rules are temporary things , and made according to several emergences and occasions , which altering frequently , it were a very unreasonable thing to expect that every church should at all times conform it self to them . and tho we condemn that dissolution of all the canons which the church and court of rome hath brought into the world , yet on the other hand we cannot acknowledg any such binding authority in them , that they can never be dispensed with . the methods of those men with whom we deal , are wonderful . now they reproach our church with a violation of ancient canons ; and yet when we lay to their charge some of the canons that their councils have made in these later ages , such as those of the lateran , for the extirpation of hereticks , and for the pope's power of deposing heretical princes ; they tell us , that great difference is to be made between the decisions of the church in the points of faith , and the decrees that are made in matter of discipline ; since , tho they assert an infallibility in the one , yet the other are transient things , in which we ought not to admit of so absolute an authority . this is false with relation to decrees , that declare a christians duty , or a rule of morality : for decrees in such matter do import an article of faith or doctrine upon which they are founded . and therefore a church may indeed , even in the opinion of those who believe her infallible , err in a particular judgment against such or such a heretical prince ; for that being founded on a matter of fact , she may be infallible still , even tho she were surprised in matters of fact. but she cannot be infallible , if in declaring the duty of subjects towards heretical princes , or of the popes authority in those cases , she hath set rules contrary to the word of god. in such matters as these are , i do acknowledg the decrees of the church are for ever obligatory upon all those who believe her infallible . therefore , since our author urges so much the authority of the canons , i would gladly know what he thinks of these , which are not , i confess , ancient , yet they were enacted by the supream authority of that body which they account infallible . it is true , some have thought they could get out of this difficulty by denying these to be the acts of that council . but if our author be the same person with him that writ concerning the adoration of the eucharist , he is of another mind , and doth acknowledg , that those canons are the true acts of that great assembly , and not only the designs of the pope . it is true , he saith , the sense of the canon concerning the secular powers , is by protestants mistaken . but he hath not yet given himself the trouble of laying before us the true sense of that canon ; and one would think that he who writ the treatise that is now under examination , had very favourable thoughts of the doctrine of subjects shaking off an heretical prince ; for he reckons up the many risings that were in k. edwards days , chiefly for matter of religion , as a proof that the body of the clergy went not into that change . which rising ( saith he ) of the laity in such numbers for their former way of religion , would not have been , had not their clergy justified it unto them . rising is a soft word for rebellion , and one would think , that it would have afforded no small matter of reproach against us , if we brought in a company of rebels to make up a muster of our religion . but to own that the clergy justified it to them , without adding the least word expressing our author's dislike of this , shews plainly enough , that how good a subject soever our author may be to a prince of his own religion , yet he thinks a catholick clergy may be able to justifie to the laity , a rising against a heretical prince upon the account of religion . and it seems our author had a great mind to make a huge appearance of his catholick rebels in k. edwards days . for , besides that he speaks of risings in many more counties then are mentioned by the books of that time ; he also represents all those risings to have been upon the account of religion ; tho the history makes it clear that the risings over england , were chiefly occasioned by parks and enclosures , and that it was a rage of the peasants against the gentry in most places ; chiefly in the northfolk-rebellion , where religion was not at all pretended ; nor doth it appear that any pretended religion , except those of devonshire ; so that our author would make his party and the clergy more rebellious than indeed they were . in this whole period he seems to have been forsaken of common sense . chap. iii. some general considerations on the regal supremacy , that was raised so high at the reformation . our author hath brought together many acts of parliament with their pompous preambles , that seem to carry the kings power in ecclesiastical matters to a very indefinite degree , and upon all this he triumphs often , as if this was so improper , that it alone is enough to blast the whole reformation . our author is much more concerned to justifie all papal bulls , than we can be to justifie all the words of our laws ; especially , the rhetorick that is in their preambles . if he believes the pope infallible , the general parts of bulls that set forth the doctrine of the church , are such solemn declarations , that he must be determined by them . but at lowest he believes the popes to be the centers of the catholick unity , and all bishops are bound by oath to obey all their decrees and ordinances . now , when our author will undertake to justifie all the preambles of bulls that are in the bullarium , then we may undertake to justifie all the flourishes that may be in any act of parliament . when any authority is asserted in general and indefinite terms , these are always to be understood with those restrictions and limitations that the nature of things require , to be supposed even when they are not expressed . st. paul expresses the obedience of wives to their husbands in terms so extreamly extended , that as the church is subject unto christ , so ought the wives be to their own husbands in every thing . he expresses also the duty of children in as comprehensive terms . children obey your parents in all things . now if one would draw inferences from the extent of these words , he might , taking the liberty that our author takes upon some of the expressions that are in our acts of parliament , represent the authority that st. paul vests both in husbands and parents , as a very boundless , and a very extravagant thing . this is enough to shew that in all those large phrases of obedience , there are some necessary reserves and exceptions to be understood ; and if this qualification is necessary , even in writings that were inspired , it is no wonder if some of the rhetorick of our acts of parliament wants a little of this correction . it is a very unreasonable thing to urge some general expressions , or some stretches of the royal supremacy , and not to consider that more strict explanation that was made of it , both in k. henry the 8th's time , and under q. elizabeth ; that were so clear , that if we had to do with men that had not resolved before-hand not to be satisfied , one would think there could be no room for any further cavilling . in k. henry's time , the extent of the kings supremacy was defined in the necessary erudition of a christian man , that was set forth as the standard of the doctrine of that time ; and it was upon this that all people were obliged to take their measures , and not upon some expressions either in acts of parliament , or acts of the convocation , nor upon some stretches of the kings jurisdiction . in this then it is plainly said , that with relation to the clergy , the king is to oversee them , and to cause that they execute their pastoral office truly and faithfully , and especially in those points , which by christ and his apostles was committed to them : and to this it is added , that bishops and priests are bound to obey all the kings laws , not being contrary to the laws of god. so that here is expressed that necessary reserve upon their obedience , it being provided , that they were only bound to obey , when the laws were not contrary to the laws of god. the other reserve is also made of all that authority which was committed by christ and his apostles , to the bishops and priests ; and we are not ashamed to own it freely , that we see no other reserves upon our obedience to the king besides these : so that these being here specified , there was an unexceptionable declaration made of the extent of the kings supremacy ; yet because the term , head of the church , had something in it that seemed harsh , there was yet a more express declaration made of this matter , under q. elizabeth , of which indeed our author hath taken notice ; tho i do not find he takes notice of the former , which he ought to have done , if he had intended to have represented this matter sincerely to the world , ( which i confess seems not to have troubled him much . ) the explanation made by q. eliz. is so express , that even our author cannot find any advantage against the words themselves , but acknowledges that they are such general terms , that the article it self may be subscribed by all sides . since then the declared sense of those general and extended expressions that are in some acts of parliament , is such , that there lies no just exception against it ; and since this sense was not only given by q eliz. who allowed such as took the oath to declare that they took it in that sense ; but it was afterwards enacted both in convocation and in parliament , and put into the body of our confession of faith. this explanation must be considered as the true measure of the kings supremacy ; and the wide expressions in the former laws must be understood to be restrained by this ; since posterior laws derogate from those that were at first made . so that according to all this , the kings supremacy doth not give to our princes the ministring either of gods word , or of the sacraments . — but that only prerogative , which we see to have been given always to all godly princes in holy scriptures by god himself ; that is , that they should rule all estates and degrees committed to their charge by god , whether they be ecclesiastical or temporal , and restrain with the civil sword the stubborn and the evil-doers . this is all that supremacy which we are bound in conscience to own ; and if the letter of the law , or the stretches of that in the administration of it , have carried this further , we are not at all concerned in it : but in case any such thing were made out , it could amount to no more than this , that the civil power had made some encroachments on ecclesiastical authority ; but the submitting to an oppression , and the bearing it till some better times may deliver us from it , is no argument against our church ; on the contrary , it is a proof of our temper and patience , and of that respect we pay to that civil authority which god hath set over us , even when we think that it passeth its bounds . but all that we are bound to acknowledg in the kings supremacy , is so well limited , that our author hath nothing to object to it . our men of the mission have always made a great noise of the kings supremacy , as if it were the most absurd thing that can be imagined ; without considering , that as the supremacy is explained by the article of our church , it is practiced by almost all the states and princes of europe : it hath been clearly made out by many of our writers , that the kings of england before the reformation , were in possession of his supremacy , and that they really exercised it , even before they pretended so formally to it . i will not enter into this enquiry , which is so well laid open by sir roger twisden , that a man must have a great stock of confidence to deny it , after he hath read him . in france all ecclesiastical causes are carried before the courts of parliament by appeals from the ecclesiastical courts , and are finally judged there : now the supremacy is always where the last appeal lies , and we may see both in godeau , and many other modern writers , how much they complain of this as a servitude under which their church is brought , and as an infraction of all the ancient canons . the court of parliament at paris examines all the bulls that come from rome , and condemns and tears them as oft as they see cause : so that tho all the bishops of france are bound by oath to obey all the popes decrees and ordinances , yet this can take no effect till the parliament hath confirmed them . how easie were it to carry this matter far , and to shew that by this , the popes power , either as he is st. peter's successor , and thereby vested with a universal authority over the flock of christ , or as he is the patriarch of the west , and the center of the catholick unity , is subjected to the judgment of a secular court , who will not suffer the sheep to hear his voice , till they have first examined it . and what is the whole concordat , but a bargain made between the popes , and the crown of france , to divide the spoils of that church and its liberties between them ; for whereas the pragmatick sanction had established the clergy in the possession of its ancient rites , lewis the 11th , and after him francis the 1st , saw well how much this lessened that unbounded degree , to which they intended to carry their authority , and therefore they consented to give the popes their share , so they would warrant their enslaving that church . it is known what complaints , and what opposition the french clergy have made upon this matter ; yet at last they bear it , and submit to it ; so that here the last appeal , the check upon the papal authority , and the nomination of all the bishops and abbots of france , are wholly in the civil courts and in the king. if it is said , that in some particulars the supremacy of our kings goes further ; tho that were acknowledged to be true , yet since the more or the less does not alter the nature of things , it must be confessed , that according to our author's principles , the whole gallican church is in an uncanonical state as well as we are : but tho they do not stick to confess , that they are in a state of oppression by reason of the concordat , and of the unbounded authority of their parliaments , yet they do not think that this makes them irregular or uncanonical as to the constitution of their church . i might upon this likewise shew how not only the republick of venice , but even the crown of spain , notwithstanding all its bigotry , exercises still so great a supremacy in ecclesiastical matters , that there is only some difference of degrees between that which belongs to the crown of england by law , and that which is practiced elsewhere . the court of the monarchy in cicily is well known , in which by virtue of a forged bull ( which is made out to be a forgery beyond all contradiction ) that declares the kings of cicily the popes vicars ; there is a lay-man that is the kings vicar-general , who is the judg of that court , and to whom all spiritual causes are brought , and who judges them all , as a spiritual person , and that hath the titles and outward respect that is given to the pope , likewise paid to him . this is the carrying an imposture very far ; yet , since it is done in the virtue of a pretended bull , which the crown of spain will still maintain to be a true one ; none hath ever opposed this to such a degree , as to pretend that the whole clergy of sicily are become irregular , because they submit to this court , and appear before it . so that upon the whole matter , if the great and unmeasured extent of the papal authority , made our princes judg it necessary to secure themselves from those invasions , by stretching their jurisdiction a little too much ; on the other hand , those who have submitted so tamely to the one , have no reason to reproach us for bearing the other servitude ; even , supposing that we granted that to be the case . and if in the time of our reformation , some of our bishops , or other writers have carried the royal supremacy too far , either in acts of convocation , or in their writings , as those things are personal matters , in which we are not at all concerned , who do not pretend to assert an infallibility in our church ; so their excess in this , was a thing so natural , that we have all possible reason to excuse it , or at least to censure it very gently . for as all parties and persons are carried by a bias very common to mankind , to magnify that authority which favours and supports them ; so the extreams of the papal tyranny , and the ecclesiastical power that had formerly prevailed , might have carried them a little too far into the opposite extream , of raising the civil power too high . but after all we find , that when theodosius came to the empire , he saw the eastern half of it over-run with arrianism ; and as the arrians were in possession , and were the more numerous ; so they had synods of bishops that had met oft , and in vast numbers , and had judged in their favours . their synods were both more numerous than that of nice , and were a more just representative of the catholick church , since there were very few of the western bishops in that which was held at nice . and as for the frauds and violences that were put in practice to carry matters in those synods , it is very like the arrians both denied them , and were not wanting to recriminate on the orthodox . so when there was a pretence of general councils on both hands ; here was a very perplexed case . but theodosius found a short way to get out of it ; and therefore , instead of calling a new general council , or of examining the history of the several pretended councils , which ought to have been done according to our authors system ; he pass'd a law , which is the first law in iustinians code , by which he required all persons to profess that faith which was profess'd by damasus bishop of rome , and peter bishop of alexandria ; and yet this law which was a higher invasion on the ecclesiastical authority , than any that was committed in our reformation , was never so much as censured ; on the contrary , theodosius was highly magnified for it . there is no reason to imagine , that he paid any particular respect to the see of rome in this ; for his joining peter of alexandria with damasus , shews that he made the faith of these bishops the measures of that doctrine which he resolved to protect , not because of the authority of their sees , but because he believed their faith was orthodox . the case was almost the same in england , in which it was pretended that the independent authority of our metropolitans ought to be asserted , which was established by the council of nice ; and that many corruptions in the worship , as for instance , the worship of images that was condemned by two very numerous general councils , one in the east at constantinople , and another in the west at francfort , ought to be reformed . if upon all this the supreme civil authority of this nation , had enacted such a law as theodosius had done , commanding all to follow the doctrine profess'd by the two arch-bishops of this church , it had been no other , but a copying after that pattern , which theodosius had set us with the approbation of all antiquity ; and yet it cannot be pretended , that our kings and parliament acted in so summary a way ; for they went much more slowly and maturely to work. upon the whole matter , the civil authority hath a power to command every thing that is just and lawful ; and in that case , the laws that flow from it ought to be obeyed . and if the matter of the laws is sinful , we must not indeed obey in that case , but we must submit and bear what we do not like , and suffer where we cannot obey . so that lawful or unlawful seem to be the only measures that ought to govern our obedience . and as in the matters of natural religion and morality , no body can deny that the civil authority hath a full scope , tho that is still limitted by this , that there ought to be no injustice , immorality , or turpitude in the actions that are commanded ; but where this is not , we are bound to obey all the laws that relate to those matters ; and where it is , we are bound to submit and to bear our burden , without giving our selves the trouble to enquire , how far the civil authority ought to be carried in such matters . we set the same measures to our obedience in matters of revealed religion . if the king passes laws contrary to scripture , we cannot indeed obey them , because of that higher authority to which we are subject , and in obedience to which we pay all submission to those who god hath set over us ; but if they are lawful , and conform to the scripture , we ought to obey them without examining , whether the king hath proceeded in the passing such laws by the rules that become quiet and regular times . and if a hezekiah or a iosias should rise up , and finding the greater part of his subjects , the priests as well as the people , engaged in idolatry ; if he should reform them , and suppress that corrupt way of worship , we ought instead of examining critically the method or steps by which he had brought about that change , rather to rejoyce in the goodness of god for blessing us with such a prince . so that let men men write and dispute as long as they will on these matters , the whole cause must be brought to this short issue ; either the things that our princes and legislators enacted at the reformation were in themselves just and good , and necessary , or not ; if they were , then they having an authority over us in all lawful things , as they did well to enact these laws , so we do well to obey them . but if they were neither just nor good , nor necessary , then we acknowledg , that as it was a sin in them to enact them , so it were a sin in us to obey them : and all other reasonings upon this subject are but illusions , by which weak minds may perhaps be wrought upon ; but they will appear to be such evident fallacies to men of sense , that without entring into a strict enquiry of what may be alledged for them , they will easily shake them off . in short , if the reformation appears to be a good thing in it self , then all arguing against the manner of it , is but meer trifling ; and looks like men , who lie in wait to deceive , and to mislead people by false colours of truth . chap. iv. reflection on the eight theses , laid down by our author . upon the grounds that have hitherto been opened , it will not be hard to make a very clear judgment of all these positions which are laid down as the foundation of this work. the first is , that the two principal offices , which the clergy have received from christ , are , ( 1. ) to determine controversies in pure matters of religion , and to judg what is truth , and what are errors , in faith and worship . ( 2. ) to teach and promulgate this truth , and to execute church-censures on those who receive it not . all this is true ; but since our author doth not prove that the clergy are infallible in their decisions , which is not so much as pretended by any , with relation to national churches , this only proves , that it is the duty of the clergy to declare and publish the truth ; but as the body of a national clergy may err , so in case it should actually err , can it be supposed that the people and the prince are bound to err with it ? synods are of great use for the unity of the church , and a vast respect is due to their decisions ; but since our author names the synods of the arrians , the many synods that they had , which were very numerous , and were gathered from all parts , gave them all the advantages from this authority that could be desired ; so that if the council of nice had not had truth of its side , i do not see why the visible authority should not rather be thought to lye on the arrian side . the princes authorizing a synod , or his opposing it , is to be justified or condemned from the decisions that are made by it ; if they are good , he ought to support them ; and if they are bad , he ought to oppose them ; and in this he must judg for himself , as every other man must do , the best he can , as knowing that he must be judged by god. the second is , that the clergy cannot make over this authority to the secular governour , being charged by christ to execute it to the end of the world. upon which he arraigns two things ; ( 1. ) the clergies binding themselves never to make any decisions in matters of faith or worship , till they had first obtained the consent of the secular governour . ( 2. ) the clergies authorizing the secular governour , or those whom he should nominate to determine those matters in their stead . it is certain , no clergy in the world can make any such deputation ; and if any have done it , it was a personal act of theirs , which was null of it self , and did not indeed bind those who made it , it being of its own nature unlawful , but much less can it bind their successors ; but if the church of england never did neither the one nor the other , what a prevaricator and false accuser is he , who as he lied long to god and man , when he pretended to be of this church , so resolves now to lye concerning this church as much as ever he did to it ? the submission of the clergy related only to new canons and constitutions , as the other act empowering a select number to be nominated by the king to form a body of a canon-law , related only to the matters of the government of the church ; the religion and worship had no relation to it ; so a compromise as to matters of government is very unjustly stretched , when this is made a surrender of the authority of determining and declaring matters relating to doctrine and worship , which no church-man without breach of the most sacred of all trusts can deliver up ; but in the matters of ecclesiastical policy , all states in the world have felt enough from the yoke of the papacy to give them just reason to assure themselves against any more of such ecclesiastical tyranny ; besides , that in all the engagements tho made in terms that are general , such as are all oaths of obedience ; and in particular , those that are made by prelates to the popes , exceptions are still understood , even when they are not expressed : as long then as the church enjoys a protection from the civil authority , she is bound to make returns of all engagements , not only of submission , but of obedience : but tho the one is perpetual , the other has its limits ; and when the church finds its oppressions from the civil power really to over-ballance the protection that she receives from it , in that case she must resolve to fall into a state of persecution ; and all the engagements that any body of the clergy have made , relating only to the maintaining a peacable correspondence with the civil powers , they do not at all bind up church-men from doing their duty , in case the civil authority sets it self to overthrow religion : besides , when both religion , and the worship , and the constitution of a church is once established , the adding new canons may perhaps be of great use to a church ; but yet it cannot be supposed to be so indispensably necessary , but that rather than give any distaste to the soveraign , they may content themselves with what they have without asking new canons ; and a church under a body of canons may likewise resign up the compiling of these into a new system , and the leaving out such as are found inconsistent with the publick peace , to such persons as shall be nominated by the prince ; but all this , how general soever the words may be , hath still a tacit exception in it , which all that know the principles of law will grant . the third thesis is , that the prince cannot depose any of his clergy , without the consent of the major part of the clergy , or their ecclesiastical superiors , and in particular of the patriarch . in this the matter must still be reduced to the former point ; either the grounds of such a deposition are in themselves just , or not ; if they are just , the prince may as lawfully hinder any church-man from corrupting his subjects , while he is supported by a publick authority , or a setled revenue , as he may hinder a man that hath the plague on him , from going about to infect his people ; for his deposing such a one is only the taking the civil encouragement from him ; but when this is done unjustly , it is without doubt an act of high oppression in the prince ; and as for the person deposed , and those over whom he was set , they are to consider according to the rules of prudence , whether the present case is of such importance , that it will ballance the inconveniences of their throwing themselves into a state of persecution ; for it is to be confessed that church-men have by their office an indefinite authority of feeding the flock , which cannot be dissolved by any act of the princes ; but the appropriating this to such a precinct , and the supporting it by civil encouragements , is a humane thing , and is therefore subject to the soveraign power . the princes of iudah notwithstanding an express law of god which appropriated the priesthood , and the high-priesthood , to such a family and race of men , did turn them oft out ; and iehosaphat sent to his princes to teach in the cities of iudah ; and with them he sent about also priests and levites , who went about and taught the people : he did also set up in ierusalem a court made up of levites , priests , and the chief of the fathers of israel , for the iudgment of the lord , and for the controversies among the people ; and appointed amariah the chief-priest , to be over them in the matters of the lord : hezekiah when he came to reign , commanded the priests and the levites to sanctifie themselves in order to the reforming the worship , in which he went on , tho a great many of the priests were not very forward in doing it , but he made use of those who had sanctified themselves ; and as he bore with those that did this slowly , so no doubt he would have turned out any that had been refractory ; and finding that the priests could not be ready to keep the passover in the first month , he with his princes , and the whole congregation , put off the feast from the 1st to the 2d month. now the distinction of days , and the observance of those festivities , being so great a part of that religion , and it having been so expresly regulated by the law of god , that it should be kept on the first month , a provision being made only for such as were unclean , or such as were on a iourney , that they might keep it on the 2d month ; yet here the civil authority makes a law , appointing the passover to be entirely cast over to the 2d month , because of the uncleanness of some of the priests . ezra took a commission from artaxerxes , impowering him to set up magistrates and iudges , who might judg them that knew the laws of his god , and teach them who knew them not ; and one of the punishments on the disobedient , is separation from the congregation ; to which our excommunication answers . and we see what a reformation ezra made in the virtue of this commission . nehemiah by virtue of such another commission , turned out a priest for having married a strange woman . these were all as high stretches of the civil power , as any that can be objected to our reformation . but in the next place , it ought to be consider'd , that , suppose this turning out of the clergy had been an illegal and unjustifiable thing , yet that doth not strike at the constitution of our church . the high-priesthood among the iews by the law of god , was setled on the eldest branch of the family of aaron , and it went so during the first temple , and likewise for some considerable time under the second temple ; and yet , tho afterwards this sacred function came to be set to sale , so that dr. lightfoot hath reckoned up fifty three that purchased it for money , by which prophane merchandize one might infer , that those mercenary high-priests were no more to be acknowledged ; yet our saviour , and after him st. paul , owned them to be high-priests . our saviour answered to caiaphas , when he adjured him upon oath ; and it is said by st iohn , that caiaphas , as high-priest for that year , prophesied : from all which it is clear , that tho these wretched men were guilty of the highest profanation and sacrilege possible , yet that was a personal sin in them ; but since they were in possession of the dignity , and adhered still to the law of moses , and performed the offices of their function according to his institution , the solemn yearly expiation was still made by them , which was the highest act of the whose jewish worship ; and they were to be submitted to , and acknowledged as high priests by the people , for which our saviour's practice is an undisputed warrant . now , if all this was lawful under the old testament , in which all the smallest parts of that religion were marked and enacted , much more expresly than they are under the new , then it will be a hard performance for any to perswade us , that the civil authority may not make such reformations in the christian church , as the kings of iudah did in the jewish . in this matter , i have not so much as mentioned the orders and regulations made by david and solomon , tho they are very clear precedents for justifying all that supremacy to which our kings have pretended . but , since i know some have endeavoured to set all this aside , by saying , that they being assisted by immediate inspirations , acted in those matters not as kings , but as prophets . tho it were easy to shew the falshood of this allegation ; yet , since i would shorten matters all i can , i will not digress into a controverted point . under the protection that the christian church received from the emperors that became christians , we see that they appointed triers to examine the matters that were objected to bishops ; and these under constantine judged in cicilian's matter upon an appeal made by the donatists , after it had been already judged in several synods . constantine did likewise by his own authority put eustathius out of antioch , athanasius out of alexandria , and paul out of constantinople . it is true , these matters were much complained of , as unjust , and as flowing from the false suggestions of the arrians : but it is as true , that it was not so much as pretended , that the emperor had no just authority to do it . for the disputing the justice of the exercise of an authority , is very different from their disputing the authority it self . it was afterwards a common practice of the christian emperors to have a court of some selected bishops , who waited on them , and to whose cognizance most causes relating to bishops were left , who acted only by commission from the emperor . i have enlarged a little upon this point , because it seemed necessary to dissipate many of those prejudices , which arise out of it . the 4th thesis is , that a provincial or national synod cannot lawfully make definitions in matters of faith , and concerning heresies or abuses in gods service , contrary to the decrees of former superior synods , or to the iudgment of the vniversal church in the present age , shewed in her publick liturgies . this is founded on the supposion of the infallibility of the church ; so if that is not true , then this falls to the ground , and that is not pretended to be proved by our author , who seems only to proceed upon the subordination that is in the ecclesiastical body . but if the majority of this body is not infallible , then that obligation to submit to it , must be only a matter of order ; and by consequence , it hath its limits . if this had been the rule of the church in theodosius's time , how could the several provinces have reformed themselves from arrianism , after so many general councils had declared for it , or at least had rejected the word consubstantial ? but in our condemning the papal authority over us , we had both the council of nice for us , that had established the independent authority of the metropolitans , with the bishops of their province , for all matters relating to their province ; and the decree of the council of ephesus , which appointed all churches to continue in the possession of that independence upon any other superior sees , which was past prescription . we had likewise superior councils justifying us in many of the branches of our reformation . if we must seek the sense of the universal church in her publick liturgies , then we have the liturgies of the greek church for us in many other points ; and the corruptions of the liturgies of the roman church were so gross , that they themselves have been ashamed of a great many of them , and have thrown them out , tho a great many more remain still to be reformed : and if the publick liturgies are to be considered as the standards of the sense of the present church , as no doubt they are , then all those expositions and representings that are now obtruded on us , are to be thrown out of doors , and we must seek the doctrine of the church of rome in her publick liturgies . the 5th thesis , that a synod wanting part of a national clergy unjustly deposed or restrained , and consisting partly of persons unjustly introduced , and partly of persons who have been first threatned with fines , imprisonments and deprivation , in case of their non-conformity to the prince's injunctions in matters merely spiritual ; is not to be accounted a lawful national synod , nor the acts thereof free and valid . all this falls to the ground , if the reasons upon which such persons were turned out , were just . and in that case , such vacancies may be justly filled . but it is an impudent thing to found much on this , when the number of those who were turned out , was so very inconsiderable , as it was in k. henry's , and k. edward's time ; and if such a small terror as the loss of a benefice is thought by our author so dreadful a thing , as it may be well judged by the operation it had upon himself for 25 years , so that this derogates from the freedom of an assembly ; then there never was any free , even that at nice not excepted . for it is the same fear whether one is threatned with it before such a decision is made , or if they knew that it must follow upon it : now this formidable business of losing a benefice , and a banishment upon the back of it , was really the case of the council of nice , since this was the condition of those who refused to subscribe their definition : so the principle laid down by our author , taken from fear , must either be false , or this will annul all the ecclesiastical meetings that ever were . the sixth thesis is , that the iudgment of the smaller part of the clergy , even tho the metropolitan were of that number , cannot be called the iudgment of the clergy of that province ; and a prince that follows the directions of a few of his clergy , cannot be said to be guided by his clergy , but to go against it . this is very true ; but yet theodosius thought fit to give his sanction to the faith of two bishops , upon which all the arrian party might have as justly said that he acted against his clergy , for they were then by far the more numerous : the civil power is bound to follow those whom they think are in the right ; and tho in common matters , and in setled times , it is fit to leave things to the majority ; yet if it is visible , that the greater number is both ignorant and corrupt , and that the matters under dispute are chiefly such things that are of great advantage to the clergy , both for encreasing their wealth , and for advancing their credit , then the secular power hath just reason to be jealous of the greater number of the clergy , since interest gives a mighty byass , and their following the lesser number in such a case is very justifiable ; for humanely speaking , it were impossible to find the greater number willing to go into such a change . the seventh thesis is , that tho secular princes had a decisive power in such matters of faith as are no ways formally determined , yet in such points as have been formerly determined , no secular prince can define any such things contrary to those councils , or contrary to a national synod . it is not so much as pretended , that a secular prince hath any power to decide in matters of faith , whether they are already determined or not ; but as for the giving the sanction of a law , and all secular encouragements , a prince must have a judgment of discretion , by which he ought to determine himself ; for when he hath given his sanction , he hath made no sort of decision in the matter , which is neither more nor less to be believed than it was before ; but it is now become legal ; and all princes must proceed in this matter according to the conviction of their consciences : it is not long since some of this gentleman's friends thought to have carried the king of the abyssens to change the doctrines and rites of that church upon the private suggestion of a few missionaries , against the whole body of his clergy , upon which that kingdom became a scene of rebellion and bloodshed , till the king himself grew to conceive a horror against those who had push'd him on so violently to overthrow the laws and establish'd customs of that church : so that a reformation effected by the king's authority , tho managed with ever so much fury and violence , is yet driven on by these men , when it is on their side , and for their advantage . the eighth thesis is , that neither national synod nor secular power can make any new canons concerning the government of the church , contrary to the ecclesiastical constitutions of former superior councils , nor reverse those formerly made by them . this is such a crude assertion , that one would think that he who made it , knew neither the history of councils , nor the nature of canons and constitutions , which are all variable , and are made upon such particular occasions as required them to be put in practice ; and another scene of affairs may make it as necessary to reverse them , as ever it was to establish them : the main subject of the ancient canons are , penitentiary rules relating to the censure of offenders , the subordination of churches founded on the division of the roman empire , and the duty and behaviour of church-men : of these , the first is quite laid aside in the church of rome , and by their means we were so accustomed to be without that yoke , that we have not been able to bring the world to it . but we have never repealed these , only we let them sleep too long . the second , relating to the constitution and the subordination of churches , is quite sunk with the fall of the empire ; for if a town that was the center of a province , to which it was easie to have recourse by letters , and to which the road and carriages were regularly laid , and where the civil government was also exercised , should after many ages either be separated from the rest of the province , falling under another master , or should become a poor and neglected town , it is a needless adhering to ancient custom , to affert still the priviledges of such a see , when all those reasons which at first procured to it those priviledges , come to cease : as for the third , which are more perpetual , we pay them all respect , and have never changed them ; but the dispensations of the church of rome hath so destroyed them all , that it is a peculiar degree of confidence for any that are in communion with that church , to assert such an immutability in the ancient canons , that a national synod may not be suffered to alter any of them ; and yet that one single bishop , whom all antiquity considered but as a collegue , and fellow-bishop to all the rest of the order , should be alloweed an authority to break and dissolve them all . this may serve to shew how weak all those foundations are upon which our author builds . i come in the next place to examine his defective and false account of the matters of fact , which will engage me into a tedious opening of many particulars that will be little for our author's honour ; but no discoveries will affect a man that could stifle his conscience for 25 years , and that now hath the impudence to own it . finis . reflections on the oxford theses , relating to the english reformation . part ii. amsterdam : printed for j. s. 1688. reflections on the oxford theses , relating to the english reformation . in the former part of these reflections , the general grounds on which our reformation was attacked , were examined ; the matters of fact come now to be considered ; but before i enter upon these alledged by our author , i thought it fitting to begin with an enquiry into a very important matter , relating to that time , that hath been lately objected to our church , by one of the church of rome , which as it is new , so it is likewise of great consequence . a sheet has appeared that was well and decently writ , and with a very specious appearance of reason , to prove that q elizabeth was a bastard , not upon the common pretence of the nullity of k. henry the eighth's marriage with her mother , because his former marriage with q. katherine , was still in force ; but upon a precontract , in which ann bullen was engaged before her marriage to k. henry , which being confessed by her self , the marriage was null of it self , and was judged to be so by arch-bishop cranmer , whose sentence was confirmed by the subsequent parliament . so that here is a nullity , and by consequence a bastardy . it is true , this assertion is new ; so , tho it may raise the credit of him that hath discovered it since it must be confessed , that it looks very like good reasoning ; yet on the other hand , it is some prejudice against it , that it doth not appear it was ever objected to us before now ; and no mention being made of it while the whole matter was fresh in mens memories , and while that queen reigned , whose title this seems to weaken , much more than all the other things that were alledged to shake it , is a great presumption , that the men of that time knew there was no force in it . so that , tho the novelty of it may please , yet it is really a strong prejudice against it . but after all , it must be confessed , the thing is specious , and it is of great consequence , not only with relation to the credit of our church , and of its first reformation , but with relation to our present establishment . for tho the writer of that sheet makes no other use of it , but to blemish our church , as guilty of sedition and disloyalty , for owning a bastard against the queen of scots , who was the next lawful heir ; yet it will bear another consequence that is more important in our present circumstances . for as a precontract infers a nullity of the marriage , and disables all the issue of it ; so an ill title in a queen infers a nullity upon all her laws , all her acts of government , as flowing from an usurper ; and therefore this strikes not only at the honour of our church in the last age , but at its settlement in the present ; and i believe this last is chiefly aimed at . for , as to the former , it may serve in a great measure to justifie our church , that q. elizabeth was put in possession of the crown by the nation , while it was yet popish , and by the body of the clergy that were of that religion ; so that all that those of our church did , was to maintain her in that possession , in which we found her , and in which our enemies had put her. and it must be acknowledged , that an anxious weighing of titles , is not so necessary , after one is in a legal and peaceable possession , acknowledged by all parties within the kingdom , as well as by all princes without it . i do not pretend to say , that a possession will justify a bad title , tho there is older law relating to the possession of the crown of england , passed by king henry the vii . but an undisputed possession does certainly very much excuse those who acknowledge and submit to one that is bonoe fidei possessor . which was plainly q. elizabeth's case . but because it may be with great colour of reason alledged , that right is right still , and that possession or prescription are only pretences of law , which may have perhaps weight before a judg ; yet these are not sufficient to extinguish a just title , when matters are examined in themselves , and abstracted from those pleadings that may perhaps be legal , yet as some will alledg , are scarce rational . so i will examine this matter as fairly , as , i must confess , it is stated by that gentleman , and will first propose the matter of fact , as dr. burnet hath put it , who is the only author that is cited , and therefore he must be supposed to have some credit here . queen ann bullen was attainted of treason upon some pretended proofs of adultery , and so judgment was given , that she should be either burnt ( which is the death that the law prescribes for the traitors of that sex ) or beheaded . two days after the sentence , she is prevail'd on to confess a precontract before arch-bishop cranmer , and so her marriage with the king is declared void and null , and in consequence of that the issue is illegitimated ; yet this was so secretly carried , that one of the iudges of that time writes of it as a thing that was only reported ; and in the subsequent act of parliament , no mention is made of a precontract , tho no doubt she had confessed it with the circumstances of time and person . yet in the act of parliament , it is only said , that she had confessed some just and lawful impediments , by which it was evident , that her marriage with the king was not valid . it cannot be now known , how this matter was expressed in the sentence given by cranmer , all these records being burnt . but it is most probable , that the matter was more distinctly specified . now the only reason we can give of those general words in the act of parliament , is , that this pretended precontract , being with the earl of northumberland , he had by a solemn oath , and by his receiving the sacrament upon it , in the presence of the duke of norfolk , and some others of the privy council , denied any such precontract . of which dr. burnet assures us he saw the original attestation under that earl's own hand . this had so far invalidated the queens confesssion , that it seems the parliament would not descend into the specifying of her confession . dr. burnet hath also given several evidences of her being at that time so much disordered by vapours , that this doth in a great measure weaken the credit of her testimony , even against her self . upon this whole matter then , there are three important considerations , which arises out of the fact , and any one of these seems , strong enough to overthrow all the inferences that can be drawn from that part of our story . 1. she was a person condemned ; now all the examinations of persons condemned , are by the laws of all nations , only presumptions , but not proofs ; the terrors of death , and the hardiships of a prison , are such just abatements , that confessions so made , can never have that credit given them , as to found any sentence upon them ; but in that queens case , there are two things which give this general consideration yet more force as to her particular : the one is , that it being in the king's power to order her either to be burnt or beheaded , the terror of the former might carry her to say any thing , that might procure her the softer death : but the other was yet stronger , it was a natural-enough temptation to her , to lead her to confess a pre-contract , since by that confession she might hope so far to extinguish the crime for which she was condemned , as to obtain her life by that means : she was condemned for adultery ; now the confession of a pre-contract might be drawn from her , as a thing that dissolved the marriage , and by consequence acquitted her of the adultery for which she was condemned , since if she was never the kings true wife , she could not be guilty towards him : so that this matter was perhaps represented to her , as that which must certainly save her life . and thus this confession being grounded on the fears of death , and carrying in it the hopes of life , can be of no force in law. 2. the bare confession of a pre-contract without any other adminiele or evidence to confirm it , cannot be supposed a just ground to dissolve a marriage ; otherwise married persons when they grow weary of one another , may dissolve their marriage by taking a false oath . it 's true , in other cases the parties own confession is strong enough in law against themselves , but in this case both the married persons being equally concerned in the tie that follows upon it , the confession of the one cannot dissolve the right that accrued to the other upon the marriage ; and since two witnesses are necessary in all such cases , the confession of one of the parties is , at most , but the single evidence of one witness ; and therefore ann bullens confession could not make the marriage void : this is further confirmed by the denial of the person with whom the pre-contract was preteneded to be made ; if her confession gave such a credit to the matter , as to annul her subsequent marriage with the king , it ought likewise to have annulled the earl of northumberland's marriage ; therefore it could not be received in law. the other circumstances of it do also concur to weaken its credit ; it was so secretly carried , that one of the judges of that time , tells us only that it was reported , that she had confessed a pre-contract ; so that it was not managed with the necessary forms of justice ; and it being probable that some general promise of marriage had passed between her and the earl of northumberland , it is not likely that she understood the difference between a promise and a contract ; so she might , especially in such a hurry , and under so much disorder , mistake the one for the other . 3. but in the last place it is to be considered , that here was an innocent child in the case , whose legitimacy and right could not be cut off by her mothers extorted confession ; infants are more particularly under the protection of the law , and therefore acts passed against them in that state of feebleness have such flaws in them , that they have always a right to reverse them ; so a single witness in such circumstances as her mothers were , could not be sufficient to disgrace and disinherit her , and the confirmation of the act of parliament that followed afterwards might have been a forcible bar in law to her , but could be no just one ; for as a bastard is still a bastard , even tho he were legitimated by act of parliament ; so a lawful child is still what 't is , notwithstanding a sentence of bastardy confirmed in parliament ; and this is so true , and was so evidently the practice of that time , that even king henry in his suit of divorce with queen catherine , was willing to have his daughter mary declared legitimate ; because children begat in a marriage , are begotten bona fide , and so they ought not to suffer , because of the secret fault of their parents . and if this was yielded in a marriage where both parents were according to the kings pretensions guilty of incest , it was much more just in this case of ann bullen , even supposing her precontract true ; for her secret fault ought not to blemish , nor ruin her innocent child . another instance that fell out at this time in the royal family , is very considerable , and because it is little known , i fancy the reader will not be displeased to have it particularly opened to him ; henry the 8th's sister that was queen of scotland , did after her husband king iames the 4th's death , marry the earl of angus , and by that marriage she had a daughter lady margaret douglas . some time after her marriage she fell to be in ill terms with her husband , and discovered a pre-contract he had given to another ; and upon this she sued him in the spiritual court ; and it being proved , the marriage was annulled ; but her daughter was still held to be legitimated , and was entertained by king henry , as his niece , and given by him in marriage to the earl of lenox , of whom descended the lord darnly , that was king iames the 1st of england's father ; and since he was considered to be the second person in the succession to the crown of england , after the queen of scots ; this shews that by the practice of that time , a pre-contract even legally proved , yet did not illegitimate the issue that were begotten bona fide by one of the parents . and thus i hope enough is said to overthrow the objection that is made to the first constitution of our church under q eliz ; it was strangely put , and decently and weightily writ , and therefore i have answered it with the like decency of stile ; so that if i treat the author that i am a going to examine , a little more familiarly , i hope the reader will not impute it to any roughness of temper in me ; for the examining of matters of fact or arguments from reason , calmly and softly , without any mixture of sharpness , is a thing so becoming a man and a christian , that it is not without some pain to my self , that i find i must sometimes say things that seem too severe : but on the other hand , when one finds he hath to do with much unjust malice , he is carried to an indignation that even forces him to a style that would appear too flat , if it were not a little sharpned , when the provocation is so just : yet i am so sensible that this smartness of expression is a thing that is rather to be excused than justified , that i shall watch over my self , lest i be carried too far towards it ; for i see there is occasion enough given me by my author to tempt me to it . but before i enter upon the matters of fact , i will take the liberty to set down a period of our author's , which shews him as great an apostate from loyalty to the king , as he is from the other doctors of the church of england . he states the matter indeed as doubtful ; but the bringing of our allegiance to the king to be disputable , will be according to our law , a matter of premunire at least : his words are , whether in case that a prince use his coactive iurisdiction in spiritual matters , against the definitions of the church , then the pope hath not also virtually some temporal coactive power against the prince , namely , to dissolve the princes coactive power , or to authorize others to use a coactive power against such a prince in order to the good of the church . this they bring in question ; but then as this last is affirmed by some of the roman doctors , so it is opposed by others of them . this is in plain english , that it is disputable , whether a pope may not depose an heretical prince , and give his dominions to another ; some doctors of the church of rome holding the affirmative , and others the negative ; so that according to the doctrine of probability , every man may follow the affirmative with a good conscience ; and this being so invidious a matter , our author 's proposing it as doubtful , without declaring himself against it , is a strong , and even a violent presumption , that he himself is for it . and yet these men boast of their loyalty . our author insinuates the nullity of ann bullens marriage , to which i have already given a full answer : but he supports it by two arguments of his own making . ( 1. ) he says the act of parliament ( 28. hen. 8. ) says , that the king was conscious of some impediments why he could not lawfully marry her . from which he seems to infer , that the reports of the kings familiarity with her sister , were true : but the act of parliament mentions only the queens confession , and doth not say a word of the king 's knowing any such reasons . ( 2. ) he cites a clause of a dispensation pretended to be granted by p. clement the 7th , giving him leave to marry again to any person , tho in the first degree of affinity , and tho she were unlawfully begot ; and to make this gain the more credit , he cites the words in latin. but there was no such dispensation either asked or granted , and this pretended dispensation was afterwards forged by q. elizabeths enemies to defame her . the bull of dispensation , that the king asked , is set down by dr. burnet , among the records that he gives us , in which there is no such clause ; and it is plain , that whatever the king 's secret intentions might be with relation to ann bullen , that yet he had not declared them , much less moved to have any such extravagant clause put in the bull : for in the letter that the two legates writ to the pope , pressing him to grant the bull , they reject that imputation that was cast on the king , as if he proceeded in this matter out of an aversion to the queen , or that he was engaged in it by the charms of the person that he intended to marry , who , perhaps , was not yet known to him . this way of writing shews , at least , that it is false , that before this time the king had owned his design for ann bullen , much less that he had confessed acts of leudness with her sister ; otherwise it had been too impudent a thing for the legates to have writ in this strain : so that i had reason to say , that these were arguments of our author 's making ; and in matters of fact , this is the softest word i can find for them . ii. our author falls into the common error of card. woolsey's concurring with the king at first , in his suit of divorce , and becoming afterwards averse to it , when he discovered his inclinations to ann bullen ; but her two letters to the cardinal , printed by dr. burnet , shew manifestly the falshood of this imagination . iii. he says a 100000 pounds charges was demanded by the king from the clergy , for the expence he had been at in obtaining so many instruments from the foreign universities , that had decided this matter ; and for the sums that were given , he cites no better authors , than some testimonies produced by sanders . but the falshood of this imputation is so manifest , that it appears by dr. crooks letters and accounts , that are yet extant , that he had scarce money enough allowed him for his own subsistence ; and as the small presents he made were inconsiderable , being oft a crown or two ; so in a letter to the king , he writes in these words , vpon pain of my head , if the contrary be proved , i never gave any man one half penny , before i had his conclusion to your highness , without former prayer or promise of reward for the same . by this way of writing it is plain , that instead of his being instructed and furnished with money to corrupt divines , he had positive orders to the contrary ; nor is there any mention in the act of parliament , that contains the grant of the subsidy of any expence that the king had been at , how boldly soever it is asserted by our author . but the citing of an act of parliament had an air of truth in it , which might deceive an unwary reader . iv. he pretends to lessen the credit of the decisions of the universities , since they had supposed that the first marriage with p. arthur was consumated ; of which he doubts , and proposes the common objections against it , of p. arthur's age , and of his dying soon after his marriage . he also saith , that tho the first marriage had been consummated , many learned men ( of whom he names only fisher and tonstal , and takes the rest on sander's words ) thought the pope might dispence with it ; and in conclusion , he cites the act of parliament passed in the beginning of queen maries reign , condemning her mothers divorce , in which mention is made of the corruption of the foreign universities . ( 1. ) it is true , all the world believed that the first marriage was consummated , as appears by what cajetan saies upon it : but ( 2. ) since our author cites lord herbert's history of king henry 8th , he must needs have seen in him , as clear proofs of a consummation , as a thing of that nature is capable of . ( 3. ) prince arthur's early death was generally imputed to his too early marriage ; and the care that was had of the princess after his death , the delay of giving the title of prince of wales to the younger brother , and the mention made of the consummation of that marriage , dubiously indeed in the bull for the second marriage , but more positively in the suspected brief , are all as strong presumptions , as could be brought , for proving a thing of that nature . ( 4. ) tonstal concurred with the king in the divorce , and in all that followed upon it ; so that our author had need find better proofs of this , than sander's word , otherwise he 'l hardly gain credit . ( 5. ) the learned men he mentions , come within a very small compass . for as cajetan was the first author of that opinion , so he had very few followers in that age ; tho the consequences of this dispute hath drawn the current of the authors of the roman communion since that time , to follow his opinion . ( 6. ) an act of parliament made by gardner and others , in the beginning of queen maries reign , who were the chief managers of the suit against her mother , and who by this act intended to make their peace , and their court with her , is indeed a very venerable authority , and may very fitly come into the same paragraph with sanders . v. he pretends that cranmer and cromwell were the authors of the advice of the king 's obliging the clergy in their submission to own him for the supreme head of the church . it is true , he cites antiqui britt . for this , and for another thing , that whereas the clergy desired to have qualified that title with these words , in so far , as it is lawful by the law of christ ; the king refused this , and the clergy granted it without that restriction . here an author is pretended ; but if the writer of this treatise had examined these matters exactly , he would have found by a letter of king henry's to the convocation of york , that the king had accepted of this limitation ; and indeed the nature of things puts it in , whether it had been set down in so many express words or not ; and as for what is said here of cranmer , it is without ground , for he was then beyond sea , imployed in disputing concerning the divorce . vi. he says , warham arch-bishop of canterbury was a favourer of queen katherines cause . this agrees ill with his owning that he saw the lord herbert's history , in which he might have found warham's deposition upon oath , in which he acknowledges , that he thought the marriage was neither honourable , nor well-pleasing to god , that therefore he had opposed it much . and warham did set forward the divorce with so much zeal , that he procured a writing to be signed by all the bishops of his province , declaring that they thought that the kings marriage was vnlawful ; and in this he was so earnest , that when fisher refused to sign it , he pressed him vehemently unto it ; but the other said still , that it was against his conscience , so he made another person subscribe in fisher's name , and set to his seal to the paper , and pretended that he had fisher's leave to do it ; which he affirmed before the legates , when the matter came to be examined . so false is it , that warham favoured the marriage . vii . he pretends , that the next step of the reformation , was the submission of the clergy , by which they bound themselves not to assemble without the kings writ , nor to make or execute any canons , unless the king should by his royal grant command them to make or to execute them . but the proof he cites for this , discovers his prevarication evidently . it seems he thought a careless reader , seeing an assertion and a citation following after it , would without reading the long citation take it for granted , that it agreed with the assertion , and without being at the pains to read it , would run on to new matter . the clergy did not bind themselves never to meet without the kings writ . they only said , that the convocation had ever been , and ought always to be assembled by the kings writ , which only shews what is the regular method of their assembling themselves . but tho this obliges them to meet always , when they are required to do it by the kings writ ; yet it doth not bind them up from meeting , in ease the necessities of the church do require it , and that the king refuses his writ ; for then they are reduced to these prudential considerations in the managing of their matters in a case of persecution . nor did they bind themselves up from executing the old canons , but only from the enacting of new ones ; which is very different from the view that our author gives of it , as was made out in the first part of these reflections . viii . he fastens a very strange inference on some words of an act of parliament , as if they had amounted to this , that no laws of the land , nor the prerogative assumed by the king , had any thing of heresy in them . if by this is only meant , that the laws then in being were not heretical , there is nothing extraordinary in such a pretention . for a body in which the legislative power resides , will very naturally after its own orthodoxy ; and the bare asserting it , will hardly be thought a criminal attempt : but if our author meant , as probably he did , that by this a declaration was made for all time coming , that the laws of the land should be for ever the standard of heresy , or sound doctrine ; then this conclusion will hardly be found in the authority that he gives us for it ; which is an act , declaring , that the speaking against those laws made by the authority of the see of rome , by the policy of man , which were repugnant to the laws of the realm , or the king's prerogative , should not be judged heresy . this is an inference worthy of the sincerity of its author . in the body of the canon-law , there are many laws made that destroy all civil-government whatsoever , and that subject princes wholly to the pope . there are also many laws made relating to civil matters , in ordine ad spiritualia ; but all to be sure for advancing the interests of that court from which they came . now the civil courts in england , were already in possession of giving a check to the spiritual courts , and of granting prohibitions upon their judgments , even in cases of heresy , when the spiritual courts had judged men hereticks for articles that were not heresy ; as appeals lie for the like cases in france ; so that the parliament made only a regulation in this matter , which is at this day practiced in most of all the states of christendom . otherwise civil government were a very feeble thing , if it could not preserve its members from the arbitrary proceedings of ecclesiastical courts . and indeed , if the canons and rules made by the popes , and such synods as were absolutely at their disposal , were the measures of heresy , so that judgments ought to pass upon them , and that states might not cover themselves from them by laws ; we know where this must carry us , and how many bonfires must be quickly made in england . but god be thanked , it is not come to that . i must also add one thing , that if the judgment of heresy had carried with it nothing but the ecclesiastical censures of excommunications and anathema's , the church might have pretended that the state ought not to meddle too much in it . but since heresy not only drew after it an infamy in law , but likewise a writ de heretico comburendo , according to another canon acknowledged to be in force by our author ; then a state ought to have made such regulations in this matter , as were necessary to protect its members from such a butchery . for since the civil government is bound to secure the subjects , while they continue innocent and obedient , from the rage of all their enemies ; our legislators had betrayed their trust , if they had not put an effectual stop to the tyranny of the clergy . and thus it is plain , that this declaration made by the parliament , was nothing but a securing to the subjects their lives and fortunes , to which they had formerly a very doubtful tenure , since they held them only at the discretion and mercy of the clergy . ix . but because our writers have often alledged the laws made in former times , chiefly the statute of premunire made by richard the 2d , against all bulls and provisions from the see of rome ; our author answers this very weightily , as he thinks , by shewing us , that those laws related only to some special matters that were temporal things ; such as the titles to benefices , or the translation of bishops out of england , without the kings consent ; by which , both the king might be deprived of their counsel , and the treasure of the kingdom carried away out of it . but all this is trifling . for a contest being raised concerning the extent of the popes power , the pope claims a degree of authority to be committed to him by christ , and that the whole pastoral work belonged to him . upon this the king and parliament set bounds to it . now the question arises out of this , whether the same authority that warranted them to determine against the pretensions of that court in that one point , did not warrant them likewise to do it in other points . to a man of a clear understanding , the matter will appear to be past dispute . for if in one point a parliament may contradict the popes declarations and canons , sure it may do it in another ; and the only question then to be examined , will be concerning the matter of such laws . for if the matter of those laws is good , the authority is certainly good ; and if the matter is not good , it is confessed that an act of parliament cannot change the nature of things . but because this matter is better understood by some breves printed by dr. burnet , it will be worth the while to examine it a little more fully . that vigorous act of parliament came out indeed in the reign of a feeble prince , but the popedom at that time was in a more feeble state ; and the adherence of england to the pope , who sat at rome , was in that time of schism so valuable a support , that those at rome ( it seems ) thought it fit to take no notice of it . but the council of constance had no sooner heal'd that wound , then the popes were resolved to have that law repealed , and england falling again under a new feebleness in henry 6th minority , and factions at home , and losses in france , having sunk the reputation of the government extreamly , the pope laid hold of that conjuncture ; and in his letters both to the arch-bishops and clergy , and to the king and parliament , he annuls the statute , and requires the clergy to give it no obedience , declaring all persons that obey it , to be ipso facto excommunicated , and they should not be relaxed by any but himself , unless it were at the point of death ; and he ordered the clergy to preach this doctrine to all the people . he required the parliament under pain of damnation to repeal it , and he founds his right in the commission that christ gave to st. peter to feed the flock . here sure , if ever , the pope speaks ex cathedra ; yet for all this , the parliament would neither repeal nor explain the former statute . by all which it is plain , that our parliament did not think themselves bound to be born down by big words , and high pretensions . in this dispute then , between the spiritual and temporal power , we see the parliament judged the matter ; and by the same right that they judged one point , they may judg other points ; and if the matter of their judgment was good , their judgment was as valid under henry the eighth , as under richard the second , or henry the sixth . for the point being once yeilded , that the civil authority may examine the decisions of the church , then this may be certainly carried to other particulars , or applied to a greater extent of matter , as further discoveries of truth , and new provocations may arise . x. the affinity of the matter leads me here to make a leap over several particulars , which i will afterwards review , and to examine that which our author hath thought fit to say concerning the burning of hereticks ; only by the way i must take notice of the unfaithful recital that he makes of the two statutes made against hereticks under henry 4th and henry 5th ; which he represents as if they had merely left the judgment of hereticks to the ordinary or diocesan , without any thing else ; by which the repeal of them must appear to be the taking away that judgment from the spiritual courts ; but there were other and more important clauses in those acts , which gave the parliament just reason to repeal them . in the former , the civil magistrates are required to be personally present at the giving of sentence against hereticks ; and after the sentence was passed , they were to receive them , and there before the people , in a high place to be brent . here was the poysonous sting in that act , which our author was not faithful enough to mention ; and in that past by henry 5th , all magistrates were required to take an oath when they entred upon their employments , that they should use their whole power and diligence to destroy all heresies and errors called lollards , and to assist the ordinaries and the commissaries in their proceedings against them ; and all convict of lollardy were to forfeit all the lands that they held in fee-simple , as well as their goods and chattels to the king. these were the true motives of repealing those bloody laws ; which our author ought to have mentioned if he had not designed to deceive his reader ; but when he comes to examine the matter of burning hereticks , he does it so softly , that it is plain he would rather lay us asleep than quiet us . first he begins with that trifling answer , that the secular laws , and not the ecclesiastical , do both appoint and execute it ; but if the secular arm is threatned by the ecclesiastical , not only with lower censures , but even with deposition , and that by a council , which he acknowledges to be general , in case they do not extirpate hereticks , then this extirpation is still the act of the church , enforced upon the civil power with a dreadful sanction , which the church was able to execute in those ages of superstition ; and thus the guilt of all the blood-shed upon the account of heresie lies at the door of that church . in the next place he reckons up several instances of severe executions against hereticks both in england and elsewhere , which were practiced not only in henry the eighth's time , but also under edward the sixth's ; and were carried on chiefly by cranmer's authority : executions made under queen elizabeth and king iames , are also mentioned ; to which is added a law made by king iames , adjudging men traytors for being reconciled to the pope , or see of rome ; which is putting men to death for pretended heresie , and to a death worse than burning . but to all this i will only say , that the reformation being a work of time , as men did not all at once throw off all the corruptions of the church of rome , so this being the received doctrine of the western church for many ages , that all hereticks ought to be extirpated ; if our reformers did not , so soon as were to be wished , throw of this remnant of popery , it is rather to be excused and pitied in them , than to be justified their practice : cranmer did also soften the notion of heresie as much as he could , by reducing it to a plain and wilful opposition to some of the articles of the apostles creed ; and if the constant clamours that the men of the church of rome raised against the reformation , as a subversion of the christian religion , because some that had been among the reformers , advanced some monstrous opinions ; if these , i say , carried our reformers to such a way of justifying themselves of this imputation by some publick executions , they who gave the occasion to this severity , which i do not pretend to justifie , ought not to reproach us for that to which they drove our ancestors . as for king iames's law , i will not examine whether the death of traitors , or the burning of hereticks , is the more dreadful ; it is certain , fire , especially when it is slow , is the most terrible of all deaths , and that which gives the most formidable impression ; but if the provocation given to the king and parliament at that time by the gun-powder treason , be considered , it will not appear strange , if the king and parliament , after they had escaped so narrowly the greatest of all dangers , took a little more than ordinary care to secure themselves against the like attempts in time coming . and if the severe canons of the council of lateran against hereticks had lain as so many dead letters in the body of the laws of their church , as that law hath done in our book of statutes , they had had much less blood to answer for , and less guilt than lies upon them at present . after these softnings , our author comes to pass his own censure on the burning of hereticks ; but the common rules of prudence should have led him in the present juncture of affairs to have condemned it roundly , and so to have laid our apprehensions a little ; yet he saw so plainly , that this was a practise so clearly authorized both by law and custom in their church , that he durst not disown it in express words ; and indeed he understands so little , how a tender point ought to be touch'd , that by all the rules of prudence , he ought not to have medled with it . his discourse in this is an original ; and because i 'le do him no wrong in the manner of representing it , i will set it down in his own words . but whether this law in it self be just ; and again , if just , whether it may be justly extended to all those simple people put to death in queen maries days , ( such as st. austin calls hereticis credentes ) because they had so much obstinacy , as not to recant their errors , for which they saw their former teachers sacrifice their lives , especially when they were prejudiced by the most common contrary doctrine and practice in the precedent times of edward the 6th ; and had lived in such a condition of life , as neither had means , nor leasure , nor capacity to examine the churches authority , councils or fathers , ordinarily such persons being only to be reduced ( as they were perverted ) by the contrary fashion and course of the times , and by example , and not by argument , either from reason or from authority ; ( and the same that i say of these laity , may perhaps also be said of some illiterate clergy ) ; whether , i say , this law may justly be extended to such , and the highest suffering death be inflicted ( especially where the delinquents are so numerous ) rather than some lower censures of pecuniary mulcts or imprisonment , these things i meddle not with , nor would be thought at all in this place to justifie . here is a long period of 208 words , before the verb comes to close it ; but there is small comfort in all this ; for even after our author hath put the case with all possible abatements , and as soft as may be , of the ignorances , the strong prejudices , and the numbers of the delinquents , and intimated his merciful inclinations only towards the laity , and some of the illiterate clergy , and that only with relation to death ; fines and imprisonments , being left out of the grace that he would shew us ; yet in conclusion he only tells us , he will not meddle with this matter , nor would he be thought at all to justifie it in this place ; for he is only concerned what we think of him , and whether he justifies it or not ; he only tells us he would not be thought to do it ; and yet lest that seem too much , he adds a further qualification , that he would not be thought to justifie it in this place : so that he hath fully reserved all his rights entire to a fitter opportunity , and then he well may , without the least reproach , justifie that in another place , which he doth not think fit to do at present : yet it seems he hath a very narrow heart in matters of grace ; for this same scanty measure of favour that he had clogg'd with so many reserves , is yet retrenched considerably in the following words . tho some among those unlearned lay-people , i confess to have been extremely arrogant , and obstinate , and zealous , beyond knowledg ; and tho they had suffered for a good cause , yet suffering for it on good or reasonable grounds , as neither themselves , being any way learned , nor pretending the authority of any church , nor relying on any present teachers , but on the certainty of their own private judgment , interpreting scripture as you may see . and here some instances are given ; but if this period will close it self it may ; for our author , who seldom takes care of such small matters , leaves it in this unfinished condition . i will not examine the truth of this maxim , but will only take notice , that since all protestants agree in this , that the ground of our faith is that which appears to us to be the sense of the scripture , our author hath by this limitation of his former gentleness towards us , delivered us all over to the secular arm ; and so god have mercy on our souls , for it is plain he will have none upon our bodies . xi . he quarrels with the privy-council , for imprisoning of bonner , because he said he would observe the injunctions that were sent him , if they were not contrary and repugnant to gods law , and to the statute and ordinance of the church ; the fault imputed here to him , i suppose , being that he refused to obey any injunctions of the king , when repugnant to the statute and ordinance of the church : but since he had a mind to blacken that time , he might have as well said , that they found fault with him because he promised to obey the injunctions , if they were not contrary to gods law ; and that thereby it appeared , that they preferred their injunctions to the laws of god , as well as to the laws of the church ; and by our author 's taking no notice of the first branch of bonner's exception , it may be inferred , that all his concern is about the laws of the church , and so they be secured , he troubles himself little what becomes of the law of god : but if he had weighed this matter as he ought to do , he would have found that this exception is very ill grounded . when a form of a subscription is demanded , there is no government in the world , that will accept of one that indeed signifies nothing at all ; for it is visible , that a subscription made with those reserves , signifies nothing ; therefore if bonner had acted as became his character , he should have directly refused the subscription of such injunctions , as he found to be contrary to the laws of god , or to such laws of the church as he thought bound his conscience : but the protestation he made , gave a very just ground to the government to proceed against him according to law. xii . our author intending to aggravate the proceedings against gardiner , shews his great judgment in setting down the article relating to the kings supremacy at full length , whereas he had only named the others ; for he could have invented nothing that must needs render all his exceptions to the king's supremacy more visibly unjust , than this doth , which is in these words : that his majesty as supreme head of the church of england , hath full power and authority to make and set forth laws , injunctions , and ordinances concerning religion and orders in the said church , for repressing all errors and heresies , and other enormities and abuses ; so that the same alteration be not contrary or repugnant to the scriptures or law of god. this was no other than what gardiner had over and over again both by his oaths and his writings advanced ; and the restriction set on it was so just , that one would think there lay no possible exception to it . here there is no claim to the declaring what were errors and heresies , but only to the repressing them ; and this is done by the secular arm , even where men are burnt for heresie : besides , the power , that according to our author , belongs to the pastors of the church , is either founded on the scriptures , or it is not ; if it is not founded on the scriptures , there is no great regard to be had to it ; but if it is founded on it , then it it clearly excepted by the words of this article ; so it is hard to see of what use this is to our author , unless it be to shew him his injustice . xiii . he tells us , that all that which had been done under king henry and king edward , was annulled by an equal authority under queen mary . but tho i acknowledg he was both the soveraign , and the parliament ; yet there was neither justice nor moderation in the charge now made , equal to what had been done before . a great deal might be said concerning the election of the members of parliament , and the practices upon them , and of the turning out a multitude of the clergy before the laws were changed . the disorders and irregularities in the disputes had nothing of that fair dealing in them that had appeared in king edward's time ; and whereas all the severity of king edward's days , was the imprisoning of three or four bishops , and the turning out some of the other clergy ; he knows well how matters went under queen mary . so that we cannot be denied this glory , that a spirit of justice and moderation appear'd at every time that the reformation prevail'd . whereas things went much otherwise in this sad revolution , in which our author glories so much . so that if the good or ill behaviours of the several parties , as they had their turns in the administration of affairs , furnishes a just prejudice , even in favour of the cause it self , we have this on our side as fully as we can wish for . xiv . he tells us , that the bishoprick of durham was first kept void in king edward's days , and last of all it was by act of parliament dissolved to increase the kings revenue . if our author had examined the records of parliament , he would have found that the act that related to the bishoprick of durham , did not at all propose the increase of the kings revenue , but the dividing of one bishoprick into two ; and the raising and endowing of a new cathedral church , all which must have risen to about four thousand marks of old rents , which considering how long lands were let near the borders , did certainly very near exhaust the whole revenue of that see. this is indeed of no great importance to the main cause . for if sacrilegious men went into the reformation , hoping to enrich themselves by it , this is nothing but what falls out in all great revolutions . and it is plain our author took up general reports very easily , that so he might make a clamour with them against our church . but if some that gave an outward compliance to the doctrine of our church , were really a reproach to it ; he of all men for a certain reason , ought not to insist on it . since we are no more accountable for the duke of northumberland's actions , than we are for his own . xv. he tells us , that the bishops turned out by queen mary , were ejected , because the greater part of them were married ; upon which he gives some grounds to justifie that sentence . i will not here examine the point of the unlawfulness of the marriage of the clergy . it is not so much as pretended to be founded on scripture ; and the discipline of the church hath been , and is to this day very various in that matter . but this is certain , that a law being made in king edward's days allowing the marriage of the clergy , the queen upon the repeal of that law , granted a commission to some bishops to examine four of king edward's bishops , and to try if they were married , and upon that to deprive them . this was an act of the queen civil power ; so that the deprivation , according to our author 's own principles , was done by virtue of that commission , and was by consequence void . it was also most unjust with relation to the civil power . for these bishops having been married under the protection of a law that warranted it , that law must still justifie them for what was passed ; and the repeal of it , tho it might impower the queen to proceed for the future against those of the clergy that should contract marriage , yet it was against all the rules of justice to deprive them by virtue of a commission from the queen , for an action that was warranted by a law then in being . but there was another more extravagant commission by which three other bishops are represented as not having behaved themselves well , and that as the queen credibly understood , they had both preach'd erroneous doctrines , and had carried themselves contrary to the laws of god , and the practice of the universal church . and therefore she orders these persons to proceed against them , either according to the ecclesiastical canons , or the laws of the land , and declare their bishopricks void , as they were indeed already void . now our author will shew his great reading in an instance that cannot be disputed , if he can find a president for such a commission as this is , in all history , or a warrant for it , among all those canons for which he pretends so much respect and zeal . and thus he hath , a deprivation of seven bishops done by the civil authority , and without so much as the colour of justice . xvi . the second reason he gives for their deprivation , was their not acknowledging of any supremacy in the roman-patriarch ; and here , as elsewhere , he seems to plead for no higher authority to the pope , but that of a patriarch . but not to repeat what was said upon this in the general considerations , the acknowledging of that power in the pope , would not have served turn . it was never demanded of the clergy , and would certainly not have been accepted . xvii . another reason was their refusing to officiate according to the liturgies received , and used by the whole catholick church , for near a 1000 years . there is some modesty in this pretension , which carries up the abuses no higher than a 1000 years . tho , as to the greater part of them , and the greatest of them all , which is the adoration of the host , there is no just claim to the half of that antiquity . yet if the church of rome will give us the first 500 years , we will not be much concerned in the 1000 that comes next . our author spake too wide , when he named the whole catholick church , he should have said the western-church , if he would have spoke exactly : and for this pretension to a 1000 years , any that will compare the missals that have been printed by card. bona , and f. mabillon , with the present roman missals , will soon find that the roman missal of the last age , was far different from what it had been or a 1000 years before . there is one particular in which indeed they seem both to agree , and yet by which the change of the doctrine of the church is very conspicuous in the so much disputed point concerning the presence in the sacrament . after the 5th century , that a sort of an invocation of saints was received , by which , tho they were not immediately prayed to , yet prayers were put up to god to hear us , upon the account of their intercession . there are some prayers in some ancient missals that mention the offering up of that sacrifice to their honour , and that pray god to accept of it on the account of their intercession . now in the opinion of the church of england , that considers the communion , as a commemorative sacrifice of the death of christ , and as a sacrifice of praise that is offered up to god upon it ; these words bear a good sense , which is , that to honour the memory of such saints , their holy-days were days of communion ; and this action is prayed to be accepted of god , on the account of their intercession . in which there is nothing to be blamed , but the superstition of praying to god with regard to their intercession . but one sees a good sense in those collects . yet these very collects are nonsense , or down-right blasphemous in the present state of the roman church , in which the sacrifice of the mass is believed to be the very body and blood of christ , which are there offered up , so as to be a propitiatory sacrifice for the dead , and the living . now to say , that this is offered up to the honour of a saint , or to pray that it may be accepted by virtue of their intercession , is the most extravagant and impious thing that can be imagined . so that this change of doctrine hath rendred the canon of the mass , even in those things for which they can pretend to some antiquity , both impious and blasphemous in the opinion and sense which is now generally received in that church . xviii . our author censures a clause in an act passed in the beginning of queen elizabeths reign , in which it is declared , that in all time coming , doctrines are to be judged and determined to be heresies , by the high court of parliament , with the assent of the clergy in their convocation ; as if by this the clergy could not pass a judgment of heresy , without the concurrence of the parliament . but heresy being declared a crime , that inferred a civil punishment , the parliament had all possible reason to make their own concurrence necessary to a judgment upon which many civil effects were to follow . if the judgment of heresy went no further than spritual censures , then this limitation upon the clergy might be blamed a little . what is this , but what is practiced at present in france , in which the censure that the present pope passed in may 1679. condemning some of the impious opinions of the modern casuists , was declared to be of no force , because it flowed from the pope with the court of the inquisition , which is not received in that kingdom . and neither the bulls of popes , nor the decrees of council are of any force there , but as they are verified in parliament , tho their parliaments come far short of the authority of ours . xix . our author excepts to king henry the eighth's abrogating those laws that were established by the authority of the bishops of rome ; as if this included all those laws that were passed by the councils , in which popes presided ; since the canon-law is composed of synodal , as well as of pontifical laws . in this we will freely own to him , that since the time that the popes have so far enslaved the bishops , as to make them swear obedience to them , we look upon all the laws that have been made in synods , composed of men so pre-engaged , as papal laws ; but this doth not at all touch those laws that passed before that authority was claimed . and indeed there never was a grosser abuse put on the world , than the whole canon law. for , as for the first and soundest part of it , which is gratian's decree , it was only a common-place book drawn up by a man that was indeed , considering the age in which he lived , of great learning and good judgment . but he was at that time so ill furnished with all necessary helps to make him judg a right of his matter , that it is an impudent thing in the ages of more knowledg , to pretend to keep up the credit of a book that was compiled in so dark , and so corrupt a time. the rest is yet worst , made up of papal constitutions , or the decrees of those ignorant and packt assemblies , that had met for the three ages preceding the reformation . if king henry had abrogated the ancient canons , our author might have had some colour for his complaints . but the total abrogating of that course compilation of the canon-laws , which never was founded on any good authority , was so just a thing , that there are very few learned men in the roman communion at present , that will not say it were well for the church if it were quite laid aside , since now all men but such as our author are ashamed of it . xx. our author writes as if he intended to do honour to the memory of king henry . for he cites these words out of his preface to his injunctions ; which agreement of the clergy for as much as we think to have proceeded of a good , right and true iudgment , and to be agreeable to the laws and ordinances of god ; he thereupon ordered it to be published . an ordinary man would be upon this induced to approve mightily of the king's method . first to authorize the clergy to examine those matters , and after that , to review their determinations himself , before he gave his civil sanction to them . would our author have a prince rely blindly on a national clergy , which is subject to error , as is acknowledged by all the world ? what judgment then can he follow but his own ? the civil power must be applied in matters of religion , as is acknowledged on all hands , upon the judgment of the prince . for he can follow no other , even in the principles of the church of rome , except when he is determined by an infallible court , which is only in a general council . xxi . among the other exorbitances of the king's supremacy , one reckoned up by our author is his taking away the pope's authority as patriarch , in confirming the metropolitan , and his requiring his clergy , under the pains of premunire , to consecrate into bishopricks any that he shall nominate : it is great ignorance , or somewhat worse in our author , if he will pretend that the authority of the patriarchs over metropolitans , was of primitive antiquity ; for by the council of nice , every province was an intire body within it self ; if the clergy is under some servitude as to the promoting those nominated by the king , the pope is under the same to the king of france by the concordate ; and our subjection in this point , does not bind our consciences , but lies only on our persons and benefices ; and therefore when a case of persecution comes , we must resolve to venture on a premunire , and worse things too , if we are pressed hard . xxii . he adds to this another gross mistake in history , intimating that the suppression of monasteries was done by virtue of this supremacy ; upon which he runs out into a long deduction of many particulars relating to that affair ; but this is all so false , that the supremacy was not so much as once pretended in it ; it went all upon acts of parliament , and the surrenders of the monks : if the king acted violently and unjustly in this matter , it doth not at all concern the reformation , and much less his supremacy ; and as for all the topicks of sacriledg and profanation , and the alienation of things , and the violation of persons ( sacred ) , these are general and dreadful words , which lose their horror , when it is considered , that the vast endowments of monasteries were the effects of the superstition of those ages , in which the belief of the redemption out of purgatory , by the saying of so many masses , together with many false miracles , had prevailed so far on the ignorance and credulity of the world , as to draw the best part of the wealth of europe into those houses ; when , i say , not only the scandalous lives of many monks , which were indeed but personal things , but their false miracles and relicks , and above all , the falshood of redeeming men out of purgatory by their means , were discovered , no doubt it was lawful to dissolve all those endowments , and to turn their wealth to better uses ; and if the king did not enough that way , it was so much the worse for him ; but that doth not at all blemish the reformation . so that all the long digression he makes upon this head , is impertinent to the business in hand , which is the supremacy . xxiii . he says , that the pope pretends no such power , as to alienate the church-revenues for to spend them himself , or to dispose of them in what manner , or to what persons he pleases ; but only for some just cause , that is , in a prudential arbitration , for an equal or greater benefit accruing to the church , or christianity . i do not know , if the d's of parma , or a great many other princes , that have been raised out of the patrimony of the church , would judg this to be good doctrine ; and if the church is always a minor , so that the bargains made in her name may be ever recalled , it would be hard to find what benefit hath arisen to the church or christianity , out of the robberies that popes have made to raise their families ; and it is a strange piece of impudence in these men , who are always reproaching us with what some of our princes did in the time of the reformation , when all that put together , doth not amount to the injustices that have been committed in one single pontificate of those whom they would have us look on as god's trustees , and as christ's vicars ; if they are not concerned in those who are the spiritual heads of their church , much less are we bound to justifie all the actions of those who are only the civil and temporal heads of our church . xxiv . he tells us that the monks could not give away that which they had only for term of life . i know not how this comes to be delivered by our author , at a time when the surrender of so many charters to the king hath been judged legal , though it was made by men who had no title to these , and who were so far from having a right to them for term of life , that they had only the administration of them in an annual magistracy ; so that our author had best consider how he advances such positions , lest he doth as much hurt one way , as he thinks to do service another . in a word , our author hath pleaded the cause of the monasteries , and hath arraigned the suppression of them severely , tho as he said concerning the burning of hereticks , he would not be thought to plead for it in this place . xxv . he accuses king henry for giving dispensations in matters of marriage against ecclesiastical canons , and because he declared all marriages to be lawful , that were not against gods law : here , if in any thing , the perverseness of the church of rome appears , or rather their design to oblige the world to have oft recourse to them , to pay them well , and to depend much on them ; they have prohibited marriage in many degrees , that were not forbid by the law of god ; and to ballance this , they have suffered marriages to be contracted in the degrees forbid by god ; for the pope's power of dispensing is promoted both ways ; they have added a new contrivance of spiritual kindred ; and as the prohibitions that they have set up were unknown to the ancient church , so the degrees that they have declared dispensable , were believed by the ancient church to be moral and indispensable : and yet after all this corruption of ecclesiastical discipline they are in great wrath at the reformers , because they thought it was fit to return to the degrees forbid by the law of moses , and to cut off these superadded prohibitions , which were inventions to bring grist to that mill , where all things were to be had , so men will come up to the price . there follow here a great many instances , in which king henry exercised his supremacy , which our author aggravates all he can : but the considerations that were proposed in the first part , seem fully to satisfie all the difficulties that can be thought to arise out of them . xxvi . he tells us , that such of the privy council , as complied not with the changes made in king edward's days , were turned out after some time ; and names bishop tonstal , wriothesly the chancellor , and the earl of arundel : and he adds , that the king had but one parliament , continued by prorogation from session to session , till at last it ended in the death of the king. here are matters of no great consequence , i confess : but these shew how careless our author was in examining the story of our reformation : and how easy he was to take up any reports that might blast it . it will not appear a very extraordinary thing to see privy counsellors turned out , that do not concur with the designs that prevail . some such things have possibly fallen out in our own time ; and men have no great cause to complain of a severe administration , when this is all the rigour that is shewed to those who oppose themselves to the tide . but our author was misinformed in all these particulars . tonstal went along with all that was done , and was contented to protest in parliament against some laws ; but as soon as they were made , he gave a ready obedience to them ; and continued to be still in the council , during the duke of somerset's ministry . wriothesly was not turned out till after some time ; but immediately upon king henry's death , he had past an illegal patent , upon which to prevent a severer sentence , he resign'd his place ; but he continued still to be of the privy council . and the earl of arundel continued to be of the privy council for many years , and long after fell to be in ill terms with the duke of northumberland ; and upon that an enquiry was made into his administration , and he was fined 12000 pounds . but it is no wonder to find our author mistaken in matters of this nature , when in so publick a thing as that king edward had but one parliament in his whole reign , he hath not been at the pains to turn over the book of statutes ; for there he would have found , that king edward's first parliament was dissolved the 15th of april 1552 ; and a second parliament was called , and opened the first of march following , and was dissolved the last day of that same month. so that there were two parliaments in this reign , and the second was dissolved by an act of the king 's , and not by his death . i do confess these are not great matters ; yet this may be drawn out of them , that our author , who pretends to have examined the transactions of that time , with so much exactness , took things upon trust , without giving himself the trouble to enquire into them so critically , as was necessary for one that was resolved to pass a judgment upon them . xxvii . he expostulates upon the inhibition of preaching put upon the bishops , except in their own cathedrals ; which agrees ill with the censure that fox passes upon them , as dumb prelates . and after this there was a general inhibition on the whole clergy , hindring them to preach , till a uniform order of doctrine should be set out ; in which some bishops , and other learned men , were then employed by the king's order . as for this inhibition upon bishops to preach , except in their cathedrals , it is a fiction of our author's , for which he can give no voucher ; they were not so much as restrained from giving licences to preach , much less to preach themselves over their diocess . the second and general restraint , as it was but for a very short while , so the thing is very doubtful , and stands only on fuller's credit , who was too careless a writer to be appealed to in any matter of consequence . xxviii . our author cites here the discourse of communion in one kind , which by all appearance is that lately writ by the bishop of meaux . this shews that the author and the publisher is the same person ; though others pretend that the author is dead many years ago . but it seems the publisher thought fit at least to add some new touches ; and since he did that , he might have thought it worth the while to have examined at least the records published by dr. burnet ; and his history it self might have been considered , as well as mr. fullers and dr. heylins . but since it seems our author thought the discourse of the communion in one kind fit to be recommended by him , i will take the liberty to recommend the answer to it in french by monsieur larroque , and that lately writ in english , in which the disingenuity of the discourse mentioned by our author , is laid open beyond all possibility of replying . xxix . he tells us , that the veneration of images was defined in a general council , the second nicene , which council also justifies it by antiquity . that council hath been lately sufficiently exposed by a learned and judicious pen. it was neither a general council , nor did it justify what it defined by antiquity . the falshood of some of their allegations , and the impertinences of the rest , and the inferences drawn from those pretended authorities , are all such extravagant things , that they give a just prejudice against every thing that was defined by men that were equally void of sincerity , and of common sense . xxx . there follows from this to the end of the chapter , a long and laborious vindication of the clergy in king edward's time , in which our author endeavours , by many instances , of which some were mentioned in the first part , to make it appear that the clergy at that time gave only an outward compliance , that they acted against their consciences ; that the severity of that time , tho it went no further than to the ejecting them out of their benefices , who refused to comply ; and to the imprisoning of a very few , yet wrought so much upon their weakness , and their love of mony , that against their perswasions , they complied , both in subscribing , swearing , and officiating in the divine service . this shews our author's sound and good judgment , that leads him to fancy , that he hath by this plea done any thing but blackned them in the most infamous manner that can be imagined . it had been much less scandalous upon them to have owned that many of them were weak and easy men , ignorant and tractable , and so were apt to be seduced ; but that in q. mary's time they return'd again to their old persuasions . but this would not have served our author's turn , who wanted somewhat to excuse his own treacherous compliance against his conscience for so many years , even after he had all that conviction , which he owns in his book . but if he hopes to excuse his crimes , by shewing that his own church hath produced in former times , men as black and as criminal as himself , we do not envy him this apology . he might perhaps have another design in it , but of the same size of sincerity and good judgment with the other . he no doubt fancied , as many more perhaps did , that the church of england had many more such false brethren as himself in her bosom , who wanted only good colours and a fair occasion to declare themselves , and so as he had been preparing many books , with which he hoped to overthrow us , when ever the time of publishing them should come ; he fancied this representation that he gives of the complyance of the popish party might offer to others like himself some excuse for their dissembling so long with god and man , only that they might enjoy the profits of a benefice ; since it cannot be so much as pretended , that there was any other temptation in the case . but god be thanked he hath had few companions in his apostacy or treachery , let him choose which he will. xxxi . our author cites a passage out of a letter of q. mary's , written in her brother's time to the privy-council , in which there is a period that overthrows a great many of his assertions . she says that she was well assured , that the king her fathers laws were all allowed and consented to without compulsion by the whole realm , both spiritual and temporal . now if the former part of the citation he produces makes a little against the changes in king edward's time , the latter part is as strong in the justification of that which was done under k. henry . i cannot leave this without taking notice of our author's way of citing , which gives the justest cause of suspicion that can be . the words he cites are , i have offended no law , unless it be a late law of your own making , for the altering matters of religion , which is not worthy to have the name of a law , both for , &c. and for the partiality used in the same . now did ever man before our author put an &c. in such a place ? i have not fox by me , from whom this is cited , but i am sure this way of cutting a sentence doth not look fair . xxxii . i pass over many particulars , which are repetitions of things that have been already considered , relating to the instances in which the king's supremacy was exercised . only where he complains of the restoring the cup to the laity , as contrary to the injunction of the council of constance , i must acknowledg his sincerity in not pretending to carry the violation of our saviour's institution of the sacrament higher than the 15th century . we are not ashamed to own that our reformers thought it better to follow the first 14 centuries , especially since our lord's institution was at the head of them , then so late and so treacherous an assembly , that had overthrown all the confidence that can be among men , as well as it had sacrilegiously robbed the people of a right that was derived to them by our saviour's express words . xxxiii . he quarrels the form of ordination set out in edward the sixth's time , because in contradiction to all antiquity that part was cast out , by which a bishop gives to priests a power to offer up sacrifices , and to say masses for the dead and the living . it seems our author knows antiquity , as well as he doth the history of our reformation ; otherwise he had never pretended that a form that is no elder than the 8th century was the practice of all antiquity . this is so clear to all , who have examined this matter , that it is needless to urge it farther . the silence of all ancient authors , the form mentioned by the 4th council of carthage , by the apostolical constitutions , and by denis the areopagite , and the ancient rituals , printed by morinus , are such clear proofs in this matter , that i may well save my self a farther labour . xxxiv . he gives another exception against our book of ordinations , that instead of the oath of submission to the patriarch , there was another oath prescribed to the temporal prince . our author must needs know , that the oath which was formerly sworn to the pope , was a plain oath of homage , such as subjects swear to their princes , by which all bishops were bound to the popes , and to the regalities of st. peter as to their leige lord , in the same form of words , in which vassals swore homage to their superiour lords , and it was no wonder to see our legislators change that into an oath of supremacy to our temporal prince . in the primitive times there was no such thing as either oath or promise of obedience to superiours in ordinations , and it was not before the end of the 7th century , that a promise of obedience was requir'd , yet charles the great found ill effects of this , and so got it to be condemned by the unanimous consent of the second council of chalons : and radulphus glaber tells us , that in the 11th century an ill custom was creeping in , that none was ordain'd deacon , till he had first sworn obedience to his bishop . among the rituals published by morinus in the 4th , there is only mention of a promise of submission and obedience to the see , in the 9th ritual , which he believes to be about 700 years old ; there is an oath of obedience indeed to the patriarchal see , but this is far from any claim to antiquity , since it is plain it did not begin to be exacted , till the popes began to raise their pretensions far beyond that of a patriarch ; and so this oath was soon formed to so high a strain , that no temporal prince whatsoever had his subjects more strictly bound to him , than all bishops were subjected to the pope as their temporal as well as their spiritual head , which will appear to every one , who will give himself the trouble of reading it . xxxv . he quarrels our liturgy for leaving the oblation to god of the holy eucharist , as propitiatory or impetratory of any benefits for the living or to the dead ; contrary to the belief of former churches and councils . if by former he means the ages of darkness , that had preceded the reformation , this we esteem no reproach ; but if he will carry this matter higher , it is easie to shew they had no other notion of a sacrifice in the eucharist , than such as we still retain , which is a commemoration of that one sacrifice , by which we were reconciled to god , and a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving upon it , which we still retain , and according to the spirit of the ancient church we use the term sacrifice . and here our author betrays that malignancy of spirit , which he bears our church in accusing us for some changes that our reformers made in the liturgy , as if these had been such heinous things . whereas the changes that the roman church hath made have been of another nature , and they have so altered all their books of divine offices , that if any will compare the ordo romanus , which was a ritual of the 10th or 11th century , with the missals at present , it will appear how inconsiderable the changes that our reformers made , are , when compared to those of that church . if any will take the pains to examine the books of ordination , that are collected by morinus , he will see that the prayers , which in one age were esteemed the forms of ordination , came to be considered in another but as preparatory devotions . and that the prayers which in one time were only blessings after orders given , were at another time looked on , as the formal words by which they were given since then all churches , chiefly that of rome , have so often changed their divine offices , it is a very unreasonable thing to reproach the church of england for having done it once or twice in the beginning of the reformation . xxxvi . our author it seems thinks he hath a privilege to reproach our church , in spite of the clearest discoveries that can be made ; so though that worthy and learned person that answered his two discourses concerning the real presence , and the adoration of the sacrament , had from the light given in dr. burnet's history , answered the objection he had made from the alteration in the article of the sacrament concerning the presence , a great deal of the explanation that was made in edward the sixth's time , being left out under queen elizabeth . yet it is clear , by the original subscription , which i my self viewed in bennet colledg library , that all the clergy were of the same mind with those of king edward's time ; only upon a prudential consideration it was not thought necessary to publish it ; so that it was not cast out , but suppressed . common decency should have obliged our author not to have mentioned this any more , or to have answered that which had been said upon it . but it seems with the new religion he hath got , he hath received a most indelible degree of impudence . xxxvii . our author engages into a long enquiry concerning the articles of religion that were printed in king edward the sixth's time ▪ and hath indeed offered some things , that seem to leave it doubtful , whether they were agreed to in a convocation , or not . but all this is a matter of very small importance , if these articles were not passed in convocation in king edward's reign , we are sure they were agreed too in convocation in the beginning of queen elizabeth's reign . and it is no great matter to us , whether they are ten years older or later , that is , whether they were agreed to in the year 1552 , or in the year 1562. it is more likely they were agreed to in king edward's time , for they were printed then with that title ; and though impostures are but too ordinary to be determined by the baldness of a title page , yet things are seldom printed , as flowing from such a publick authority , when it is known that they are the projects of a few heads that would impose upon the world ▪ it cannot now be known from the records of the convocation , they being all burnt ; but it is certain , that soon after in queen elizabeth's time ▪ these articles were ever looked on as the work of the convocation in king edward's time. nor is there any reason to think otherwise , for by that time , 〈…〉 said they 〈◊〉 made , the bishopricks were so filled , and the clergy were every where so compliant , that there is no reason to think that the regular way was not taken in a matter of this nature . as long as the popish party was the majority , our reformers were obliged to carry matters by some selected bishops and divines , whose propositions were enacted by the civil authority : but when the clergy was by degrees wrought to give a more universal concurrence in the reformation , which was done before the year 1552. we have no reason to think that the regular method was neglected . but it is to very little purpose to spend many words concerning a matter of small consequence , and in which there is so little certainty . xxxviii . our author shews how dry all his concessions are in favour of the civil authority in opposition to the papal pretensions not only for deposing , but even for assassinating heretical princes , in these words . it shall here be granted ( as being the opinion of several catholicks ) that no general council hath any authority to make any ecclesiastical law , which any way intrenches upon any civil right : nor any foreign prelate hath authority to use a temporal power over princes ( when judged heretical ) to kill or depose them , or absolve their subjects from their allegiance . the king is certainly much obliged to our author , who hath given him such an assurance , of enjoying his crown and his life . for he grants it here as he said elsewhere he would not be thought to justify the burning of hereticks in this place . so here while he is in england , he will condemn these treasonable doctrines . the ground upon which he condemns them is also suitable to the condemnation it self . for he says that this is the opinion of several catholicks . this was modestly expressed . for tho it is true , that several of those he calls catholicks , are of this mind , yet all catholicks are not of it . so that the doctrine of murdering kings , is at least a probable one , and since the decrees of the church of rome for the deposing of princes , fall not only on those that are hereticks themselves , but even on the fautors and favourers of hereticks , i do not see how his majesty's life is secured . for besides the protection and liberty that he grants to hereticks of his own dominions , he hath received and encouraged the refuges of another prince , which is to be a favourer of heresy of the worst sort . so that if innuendoes were in fashion , i do not see how our author could defend himself against an indictment of treason , or at least against an information . our author to let us see how wary he is in his concessions , as he calls them , ends the paragraph with another , it shall be granted here . for it is plain , he will not loose an inch of all the papal pretensions , but will preserve them entire to a better time . xxxix . our author pretends that q. elizabeth's supremacy was carried much higher , than had been granted by the former clergy under k. henry the 8th . the allegation is false , for the supremacy was carried much higher under king henry , than it was under queen elizabeth , who , as she would not accept of the title of head of the church , so she explained her supremacy , both in her own injunctions , and in the acts of convocation and parliament that followed , in so unexceptionable a manner , that our author himself hath nothing to object to it . he seems also to infinuate , as if the king's supremacy were asserted by us , as a grant of the clergy ; whereas we pretend to no such thing . the civil supremacy that we ascribe to our princes , is founded on the laws of god , on the rules of humane society , on the laws of england , and on the practice of the church for many ages ; and king henry receiv'd no new strengthning of his title by the act of the clergy , which did not confer any new authority on him , but only declared that which was already inherent in him . xl. our author enters into a long discourse to prove the invalidity of orders granted in our church , which he doth so weakly , and yet as he doth all other things so tediously , and with so much confusion , that i have no mind to follow him in all his wandrings . he seems to question the authority of suffragan bishops , who though they were limited as to their iurisdiction , yet as to their order , they were the same with the other bishops . the proceedings in queen mary's time , were too full of irregularity and violence , to be brought as proofs , that the orders given by king edward's book , were not valid . in a word , the foundation of that false opinion of some of the church of rome , was that ever since the time of the council of florence , the form in which priests orders were conferred , was believed to be the delivering the sacred vessels , with a power to offer sacrifices for the dead and living . so they reckoned , that we had no true priests , since that ceremony was struck out of our ordinal . but the folly of all this is apparent , since men began to examine the ancient rituals ; and those which have been published by morinus , shew , that as this rite is peculiar to the roman church , so it was not received before the ninth century . and since all ordinations , during the first eight centuries , were done by the imposition of hands and prayer , then there can be no reason to question our orders , since we retain still all that the ancient church thought necessary . as for the common observation of our ordinals not being enacted by queen elizabeth , before the eighth year of her reign , it hath been so oft made and answered , that i am 〈…〉 see our author urge it any further . would he that hath disputed so much against the civil authorities medling in matters sacred , annul our orders , because the law was not so clearly worded , with relation to that part of our offices ? the most that can possibly be made out of this , is , that the ordinations were not quite legal ; so that one might have disputed the paiment of the fruits . but this hath no relation to us , as we are a church ; in that the book of ordinations having been annexed to the book of common-prayer in king edward the sixth's time , the reviving of the book of common-prayer in queen elizabeth's time was considered , as including the book of ordinations . though it s not being expresly named , this gave occasion to bonner to question the validity of them in law. upon which the explanatory act passed , declaring that it had been the intention of the parliament to include that in the book of common-prayer . so that this act only declared the law , but did not create any new right . i have now gone over all that i judged most material in this tedious book . the darkness of the stile , the many unfinished periods , the frequent repetitions , the many long quotations to very little purpose , above all the intricate way of reasoning , made it a very ungrateful thing to me to wrestle through it . in it one may see how much a man may labour and study to very little purpose . for how unhappy soever the author hath been in his pains , it cannot be denied but he hath been at a great deal to compass it . but a man that neither sees things distinctly , nor judges well of them , the more he toils about them , he entangles himself and his reader so much the more . so that never was so much pains taken to less purpose . if our author gives us many more books of this size , both as to sincerity and good reasoning , he will quickly cure the world of the mistake in which they were concerning him . he passed once for a learned man , and he had passed so still , if he had not taken care to let the world see , by so many repeated essays , how false a title he hath to that reputation which had fallen upon him . but it seems his sincerity and good judgment are of a piece . otherwise as he could not obtrude on the world the falsehoods concerning latter times , and the ignorance of antiquity that appears in all his books ; so when so many have been at the pains to discover both his mistakes , and his impostures ; he would either have confessed them , or some way excused them . but it is no wonder to see a man that dissembled so long with god , and that lied so oft to him , serve the world now , as he did his god for so many years . i pray god touch his heart , and give him a repentance proportioned to the heinousness of his sins , by which he hath given so much scandal to the atheistical sort of men , who from him must be tempted to draw strange consequences . and he hath certainly brought a greater reproach on that church to which he hath gone over , than all the services he can ever render them in his useless and confounded writings , will be able to wipe off . but to whom sovever he hath been a reproach , our church hath no share in it , since of him , and of such as he is , we must say ; they went out from us , but they were not of us : for if they had been of us , they would no doubt have continued with us ; but they went out , that it might be made manifest that they were not all of us . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a30406-e90 p. 82. ad finem . from p. 140. page 141. adorat of the euchar. p. 28. p. 139. ephes. 5. 24. col. 3. 20. page 87 , 88. 2 chron. 17. 7. 2 chron 9. 5 , 8. v. 11. 2 chron. 29. 5. v. 34. 2 chron. 30. 23. numb . 9. 10. ezra 7. 25. nehem. 13. 28. ludolph . notes for div a30406-e3660 p. 20. lin . 12. p. 21. hist. reform . p. 1. re● . bo. 2. n. 10. ibid n. 24. nam qui reginae odio vel speratae , sec dum forsan notae , futurae conjugis illecib● , & titillatione regem agi putant ij ex cordes plane , & toto , quod aiunt , coelo errare videntur . ibid. p. 22. cott. lib. vit. b. 13. p. 23. ● . 25. printed in the cabala . p. 26. p. 28. p. 39. 25 henry 8th n. 14. p. 41. hist. reform . rec. b. 2. n. 37 , 38 , 39. p. 51. p. 78 , 79. p. 57. p. 58. p. 64. p. 68. p. 71. p. ibid. p. 72. p. 84. p. 90. p. 93. p. 9● ▪ p. ibid. p. 108. p. 110. p. 111. p. 119. p. 127. p. 134. p. 135. p. 142. p. 157. p. 160. ibid. tolet. can . 10. §. 75. c. 13. 1040. vita gul. abb. dijon . c. 4. p. 162. p. 176 , 273. p. 187. p. 208. p. 120. p. 2. a continuation of reflections on mr. varillas's history of heresies particularly on that which relates to english affairs in his third and fourth tomes / by g. burnet ... burnet, gilbert, 1643-1715. 1687 approx. 189 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 81 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a30331) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 53298) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 85:3) a continuation of reflections on mr. varillas's history of heresies particularly on that which relates to english affairs in his third and fourth tomes / by g. burnet ... burnet, gilbert, 1643-1715. [5], 152 p. printed for j.s., amsterdam : 1687. errata: p. [1] and [5]. reproduction of original in yale university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng varillas, -monsieur -(antoine), 1624-1696. -histoire de l'hérésie. reformation -england. 2003-10 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-10 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-11 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2003-11 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-12 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a continuation of reflections on mr. varillas's history of heresies . particularly on that which relates to english affairs in his third and fourth tomes . by g. burnet , d. d. amsterdam , printed for j. s. 1687. preface . all that is necessary to be said in the way of a preface to these reflections , is , that the references made here to mr. varillas's history , are according to the paris edition ; these reflections were writ before the dutch edition appeared , otherwise the pages should have related to both , according to the one and the other : this will be some inconvenience to those who have only the latter : but since i was resolved to attack mr. varillas in an edition , for which he was accountable ; and to do it with such expedition , that his book might have as little time to do mischief as was possible . i hope the reader will forgive me the trouble to which he is put , in seeking out the places on which i make my reflections . g. burnet . errata . page 32. line 24. days read dates . p. 44. l. 9. surrendess r. surrenders p. 129. l. 25. any r. many . reflections on that which relates to english affairs , in the third and fourth volum of mr. varillas's history of heresies . mr. varillas thinks , that all his imaginations are matters of such importance , that they deserve to be presented to the king ; and because panegyricks are things acceptable to princes as well as to all other men , he it seems has projected one ; and that we may judge of the piece by a pattern , he lets the king of france know , that he has found out two extraordinary subjects for the enriching that master-piece of his eloquence , which perhaps he has in design , that when the quality of an historian fails him , yet his appointments may be continued to him as the kings panegyrist . but if one expects common things , he is much mistaken : for as mr. varillas has told us , that he loves to rise above the vnlgar ; so he has found out a topick for his masters praise , on which no man would ever have thought besides himself : some have compared the king to alexander the great , and others to augustus ; some to trajan , and others to charles the great : in short , all that is most eminent in ancient or modern history , has been brought forth to raise his glory : but no body before mr. varillas thought , that it would raise the kings character much , to give him the preference to a woman : yet since he thought that stroke was wanting to make a compleat panegyrick , one would have expected to have seen some of the chief of the sex brought out , a semiramis , a zenobia , or for all her heresy a queen elisabeth , had made the comparison less odious : but to set the short and despised reign of a princess , that drew on her self the aversion of her husband , and the contempt of all her people , in any sort of comparison with lewis le grand , is a sublime becoming our author . but as the comparison and the preference is a strain a little too humble for the present reign , so the two points on which this part of his piece of oratory is to be enlarged , are mistakes of such a nature , that i do not know how a man could contrive it to put two such conspicuous ones in so remarkable a part of his book . the one is , that queen mary satisfied her self with the re-establishing of the catholick religion in her dominions , without endeavouring to destroy the calvinists : whereas his majesty has not stopt half way , as that princess did : and here he trys the full strength of his sublime to set forth the kings glory in his extirpating heresy . but one would be tempted to ask mr. varillas , whether he has ever read the history of that queens reign or not : for by his way of writing , one is disposed to believe , that he knows not yet what her reign will be when he comes to write it : he has not yet made her character : he thought softness became the sex ; so it seems he will represent her gentle and feeble in all her actings : and it must be so , otherwise the panegyrick will be quite spoiled ; but what will our author say when he finds there were two hundred eighty four burnt by her : that she was not satisfied with all the laws that had been anciently made against herefy , nor with executing them with a rigour that had nothing of the softness of her sex in it : bishops and other churcbmen being put in prison long before those severe laws were made , and kept there till there should be colour in law to make them sacrifices to the zeal of the priests : she was apt enough to shew mercy on all other occasions , but was never guilty of any towards hereticks : she gave commissions that came very near the courts of inquisition ; and besides the evidences of those that i have given in my history , i have since that time seen a register of the earl of sussex's letters , and in it there is a secret article of the directions that the queen sent him , in which he is ordered to have two or three spies in every parish , who should be engaged by oath to observe and discover every mans behaviour , and upon whose informations men were to be examined and punished , without discovering the informers : this was to act in the spirit of an inquisition ; all the difference was , that lay-men had still the management of it , who have naturally bowels and compassions , which is defaced by the indelible character . the queen set on the persecution with so much rigour , that she herself writ letters to animate even the bloodiest of all the bishops , bonner , if at any time compassion softned his spirit a little . there were eight , ten , and thirteen sometimes burning all in one fire , neither age nor sex made any difference , and the cripple and the blind were burnt at the same stake . now i do not deny but galleys and dungeons , and a butcher-like de rapine of valence , are really dreadfuller things , than a quick end of ones misery , tho by fire ; yet so many fires had more lustre , and lookt more terrible ; so this part of the panegyrick will fail mr. varillas , and he will find that queen mary had the better of his monarch . it is true , great numbers seemed to comply in q. mary's time , as well as they have lately done in france , and as we find by pliny's letter to trajan , the christians of those days did upon the first threatning of a persecution ; and when this fell out , while the apostles were but newly dead , and while so much of an extraordinary spirit remained still in the church , it is not to be wondred at if in our days too many have preferred this present world to the faith , and to a good conscience ; but as that forced compliance had no other effect besides the giving those who had not the courage to stand firm , so much the more horrour at their persecutors , so it very quickly turned the spirits of the whole nation to a detestation of a religion that had signalised it self with so much cruelty . i will not take upon me to play the prophet as to the effects that the present persecution in france may have , tho the numbers that come every day out of that babylon , and the visible backwardness of the greatest part of those who have fallen , are but too evident signs that this violence is not like to have those glorious effects which mr. varillas may perhaps set forth in his panegyrick : one thing cannot be denied , that this persecution has contributed more to the establishing the protestant religion elsewhere , and to the awakening men to use all just precaution against the like cruelty , than all that the most zealous protestants could have wished for or contrived ; and of this some princes of that religion are sufficiently sensible , and do not stick to express their horrour at it in terms that they may better use than i repeat . in a word , queen mary in this point will be found to have the better of the french king : she found her people protestants , and yet in eighteen months time she overthrew all the settlement that they had by law ; she turned them out of their churches , and began to burn their teachers and bishops : whereas the french king had not of that religion above the tenth part of his subjects , and yet the extirpating them out of his dominions , has cost him as many years as it did queen mary moneths . the other article of the preference that mr. varillas gives his monarch to queen mary is , that whereas she could not do it without marrying the prince of spain , the king has been able to effect it without the aid of strangers . if this were true , the praise due upon it will not appear to be very extraordinary , since he who has so vast an army , and is in peace with all the world , has been able to crush a small handful without calling in forreign aid ; but on the other hand , queen mary had neither troops nor fleets , and very little treasure , so that her imploying strangers would appear to be no great matter ; yet so unhappy is mr. varillas like to be in all that he writes , that it seems his panegyricks and his historys will be suteable to one another . queen mary indeed married the prince of spain , but she was not much the better for it ; for she took such care to preserve the nation from falling under his power , that as she would receive none of his troops , so she neither gave him nor his mininisters any share in the government of england ; of this he became soon so disgusted , that seeing no hope of issue , and as little probability of his being able to make himself master , he abandoned her ; and she to recover his favour , engaged her self into a war with france , which ended so fatally for england , that calais was lost ; so that upon the whole matter , she lost much more than she gained by the spanish match : but as for her administration at home , if some money that she had from spain , helped a little to corrupt a parliament , that was the only advantage that she made by it : and thus if varillas's panegyrick is not better raised in its other parts than in this , it will be an original ; but i doubt it will not add much lustre to that monarch , nor draw the recompences on the author to which he may perhaps pretend . and if the kings parchment and wax , which he says procured an obedience from two millions of persons , that were prepossessed against it by the most powerful of all considerations , which is that of religion , had not been executed by dragoons in so terrible a manner , it is probable that edict would have had as little effect upon the consciences of the protestants , as it seems the edict of nantes had upon the king 's , tho he had so often promised to maintain it , and had once sworn it . i would not willingly touch such a subject , but such indecent flattery raises an indignation not easily governed . mr. varillas in his preface to his third volum mentions no author with relation to english affairs , except the archbishop of raguse , who , as he says , writ the life of card. pool . i do not pretend to deny that there is any such author , only i very much doubt it ; for i never heard of it in england ; and i was so well pleased with the discoveries that i made relating to that cardinal , that i took all the pains i could to be well informed of all that had writ of him ; so i conclude , that there is nothing extraordinary in that life , otherwise it would have made some noise in england ; and it does not appear credible , that a dalmatian bishop could have any particular knowledge of our affairs ; and if the particulars related in mr. varillas's 14. book are all that he drew out of that life , it seems the archbishop of raguse has been more acquainted with swedish than english affairs : for there is not one word relating to england in all that book , and as little of the cardinal . but mr. varillas has shewed himself more conspicuously in the preface to his fourth tome ; he pretends to have made great use of p. martys works , in his 17. book : but he gives us a very good proof that he never so much as opened them : he tells us , that p. martyr delivered his common-places at oxford , where he was the kings professor , and that one masson printed them at london some years after his death ; he tells us , that an ambition of being preferred to melancton had engaged him to that work : in which he adds , that if he is to be preferred to melancton for subtilty , he is inferiour to him in all other things ; upon which he runs out to let his reader see , how well he is acquainted both with p. martyrs character and history . all men besides mr. varillas take at least some care of their prefaces , because they are read by many who often judge of books , and which is more sensible , they buy them or throw them by as they are writ : now since mr. varillas reproaches me with my ignorance of books , i will make bold to tell him , that the apprentices to whom he sends me for instruction , could have told him , that p. martyr never writ any such book of common places , but that after his death , mr. masson drew a great collection out of all his writings , of passages that he put in the method of common places : so that tho all that book , that goes by the name of p. martyrs common places , is indeed his , yet he never designed nor dictated any such work : and this mr. masson has told so copiously in his preface , that i have thought it necessary to set down his own words : ergo quemadmodum in amplissima domo , & rebus omnibus instructissima , non omnia in acervum unum indistincta cumulantur , sed suis quaeque locis distributa seponuntur ; ut in usus necessarios proferri possint : ita in tantis opibus quas sedulus ille dei oeconomus , ecclesiae dei comparaverat , operae pretium me facturum existimavi si ordine aliquo , omnia disponerem notisque additis indicarem ; unde à studiosis quibusque suo tempore depromi possint : hoc autem meum judicium multo magis mihi probatum est cum in eadem sententia ipsum d. martyrem fuisse intellexi . sic enim à d. ioanne gravilla — qu● tempore d. p. martyris domesticus , una cum multis aliis ejus consuetudine & colloquiis frueretur , ab illo quaesitum aliquando fuisse , quare locos communes uno volumine collectos , cudendos non curaret : hoc enim ecclesiae dei fore utilius ; & a piis quibusque magnopere desideraxi ; cum iis quae dicta fuerunt annuisse : idque si per otium liceret , se aliquando facturum recepisse quod utinam illi prestare dedisset dominus ; neque enim dubium quin & limae labore addito & multarum rerum accessione longe cumulatiores opes ecclesia dei habitura fuisset : id autem cum ipsi minime licu●rit . and if after all these discoveries , mr ▪ varillas can find men that will still read his books and believe them , it must be said , that the age deserves to be imposed upon . there is another particular set forth in this preface , that is of a piece with the former : he tells us , he has drawn that which is most curious in his twentieth book out of commendons negotiation in england , of which he gives us this account ; pope iulius the third writ to cardinal dandino , ordering him to send some able man secretly over to england , to confirm the queen in her resolution of reconciling england again to the see of rome . he upon that sent over commendon , who went to london in disguise ; but by accident found one iohn lee , a privy councellor , who procured him a secret audience ; he had many conferences with the queen , who trusted him with her secret , which was , that she believed she could never re-establish the catholick religion , unless she married the prince of spain , and by that means engaged the house of austria to assist her with their troops : but tho commendon could not doubt that the popes intention was , that she should marry cardinal pool , and not raise spain too much by so great an accession ; yet he had been sent over in hast , and had no instructions relating to that matter ; so he complied with the queens inclinations for the spanish match , of which she spoke to him every time that she gave him audience ; so that he saw into that sectret , and had credit by that means to soften most of the articles , which would otherwise have been of great prejudice to the court of rome . mr. varillas can pretend no warrant for this part of his history but gratians life of commendon ; and if this be the most curious part of his 20. book , we may conclude what judgment we ought to make of the rest . commendon was in london when the duke of northumberland was executed , which was the 22. august : he had been sent from brussels some days before that ; and by consequence he was sent by cardinal dandino of his own motion , as gratian represents it . for king edward died the sixth of iuly , and it was 10. dayes after that before queen mary was in possession : so here there will not be time enough for sending notice to rome , and receiving orders from it . 2. lee was a servant of the queen's , and no privy councellor . 3. the queen never mentioned the spanish match to commendon ; on the contrary , she rather intimated to him her design for cardinal pool : for she asked him , if the pope could not dispence with his marrying , since he was only in deacons orders ; which is confessed elsewhere by mr. varillas . 4. it does not appear by gratian , that commendon saw the queen often ; for as the thing was a great secret , and by consequence many audiences given by a lady , that was so scrupulous as she was , could not be long concealed : so on the other hand , no doubt commendon pressed a dispatch all that was possible , knowing what a step such a piece of news must be to the making his fortune in rome . 5. nor does it appear , that there was the least motion yet made in the match with spain ; and the first proposition that i could find of it , was in a letter writ by the q. of hungary in the emperours name , and subscribed by him , for he was then lame of the gout , and dated in the beginning of november . 6. mr. varillas represents queen mary very ready to discover her greatest secrets , when she would trust an unknown man , sent to her by the legate in the emperours court , with a matter of such consequence . there was no danger in trusting him with her design of reconciling her self to the court of rome ; for he that was a creature of that court , was not to be suspected in that matter ; but it had been a strange loosness of tongue in her to have blobb'd out such a secret to such a person ; so that the preference he gives his king to so weak a woman , will lose much of its grace . and thus by this essay it appears , that mr. varillas holds on his method of writing , and that he does not so much as take care to write his prefaces correctly . i. mr. varillas will shew , that he knows genealogies as well as he does the other parts of history ; for he tells us , that henry the sevenths queen , that was the heiress of the house of york , had no kinswoman of that family nearer to her , than her cou●●n-german margaret . this is strange ignorance ; for she had a sister that married to courtney earl of devonshire , who was mother to the marquis of exeter , that was executed under henry the eighth . now he should have known this , that so he might have given a stroke upon it against the memory of that prince . ii. he sets out cardinal pools great vigour in speaking so freely to the king , against his divorce , that he once intended to put him to death : but he pardoned him in consideration of the compliance of his mother and brethren , and so he was sent by his family to study at padua . all this is a fiction , that was not so much as thought on , till many years after the persons concerned were dead : that cardinal in his book had no regard neither to k. henry's royal dignity , nor to the relation in blood that was between them ; but treated him as a pharaoh , and a nebuchadnezzar : yet he upbraided him with no such thing : tho it had been a very natural apology for all that freedom that he then took , if he could have alledged , that he had expressed himself first so plainly to him in private . but so far was the cardinal from such a behaviour , that ●e complied with the clergy in acknowledging the king to be the supream head of the church of england : for pool in his book tells the king , that ●e was in england when that submission was made ; and adds , that the king would not accept of the present ●hat was offered him by the clergy , un●ess they would likewise give him that title . now it is agreed on by all , that ●is submission was past by the whole convocation unanimously ; fisher●eing ●eing the only man that stood out a ●hile , but even he at last concurred ●ith the rest . and pool was at that 〈◊〉 dean of exeter , and so he was a ●ember of the convocation : he also ●●joyed his deancy several years after ●is ; so that it cannot be imagined , ●●at the king would have let him go 〈◊〉 of england , and have allowed 〈◊〉 a good benefice for supporting 〈◊〉 in his studies , if he had set him●●●f so vigorously to oppose him in a ●●●ter that touched him so near . iii. mr. varillas tells us , that in the 〈◊〉 1536. the king made a law , obliging his subjects to continue firm in the six principal points , which the hereticks disputed most : and to put his reader out of doubt as to this matter , he cites the acts of parliament for that year : but chronology is a study too low for so sublime a writer : and therefore since he thought the fable would go on the better if this law were pu● in this year , he would needs anticipate● three years , and put a law that pas● not before the year 1539. in the yea● 1536. but in this he followed his sanders , or which is all one , his florimon●● de raimond exactly . iv. he reckons up the six articles it seems as others had done before him ; but it is certain , he never looked into our acts of parliament for as they would have set him righ● as to the year , so they would hav● shewed him , that the sixth article di● not at all mention the seven sacrament● and as to auricular confession , it 〈◊〉 only decreed , that it was expedient 〈◊〉 necessary , and that it ought to be reta●ned in the church : for upon this the●● was a great dispute , most of the cle●gy endeavouring to carry the matl●● so far as to declare confession necessary by the law of god : but king henry would not consent to that ; and there is a long letter yet extant , all writ with his own hand , in which he argues this matter liker a learned divine than a great king. v. he tells us , that arch-bishop cranmer conferred all benefices in the quality of vicar general of the church of england , and that he disputed with jesus christ the institution of four sacraments . but neither the one nor the other is true ; for he gave no benefices , but those of his own diocess : and as for his expression of disputing with iesus christ the institution of four sacraments , i pass it as a sublime of our author 's ; yet even the thing is false : all the ground for it is , that in the first part of the erudition of a christian-man , that was set out this year , no mention was made of these four sacraments ; but they were all set forth some years after this , when that work was finished . vi. he says , that upon this the zealous catholicks of england concluded , that the king himself leaned to heresy , and that the provinces of lincoln and northumberland , cambridge-shire , york-shire and durresm , were the first that revolted , and made up a body more than 50000. men . here mr. varillas shews us still how well he likes rebellion , by giving those rebels no worse name than that of zealous catholicks ; and here he gives us the accomplishment of the cardinal de bellay's threatnings : but one would have thought , that a writer , who resolved to dedicate his book to the king , should have softned this part a little ; otherwise a zealous protestant may be naturally carried to make the inference , that if the fears of the change of religion in england , might carry catholicks to rebel , on whom no worse character is bestowed than that of zealous ; why may not protestants , oppressed and ruined , contrary to the faith of irrevocable edicts , claim the same priviledge . his laying of lincoln-shire and northumberland together , and then returning to cambridg-shire , and going back to york-shire , shews how well he knows the situation of our ●counies ; and he instead of lanca-shire and westmorland , has out of his store put northumberland and cambridge-shire in the rebellion ; he also represents this rising only as a beginning , whereas these were the only counties that rebelled : nor did they ever joyn together ; for those of lincoln-shire were suppressed within that county , before the rising in york-shire . vii . he says , the king ordered the dukes of northfolk and suffolk to go to the rebels , and to promise them all that they demanded ; upon which these dukes undertook this message , and went to the rebels camp , with all the shews of humility that could have been expected from the most abject of the vanquished ; they desired them to put their complaints in writing , and when they saw them , they thought them very just , and signed a treaty with them in the kings name ; by which they obliged him to redress all the innovations that had been made in matters of religion : and with this they satisfied those who were in arms , who were so foolish as to lay down their arms upon the faith of this treaty : yet the king , after he had thus dispersed them , did not trouble himself much with the keeping of his word to them ; but as he knew the names of the chief instruments of this sedition , so he put them all in prison at several times , upon some pretended crimes with which they were charged ; and soon after they were proceeded against , according to the forms of law ; and not one of them escaped death , either in secret or in publick . by this relation of this affair , one would think , that the king sent those dukes as supplicants to the rebels : but they went both of them at the head of the kings troops , and both to different armies . 2. they were so far from promising every thing in the kings name , that the kings answers to their demands are yet extant , in which he treats them as brute beasts , that medled themselves in things that they did not understand : the king told them , their duty was to obey , and not to command ; and that he would not at all be advised by them . he did indeed promise a pardon of what was past , to those who should return to their duty : but lie would not alter any thing at their sute . 3. our author did not know , that this rebellion was after the suppression of the lesser monasteries , and that this was one of the chief of their grievances : otherwise he had embelished it , no doubt . 4. he taxes them of imprudence , for trusting the kings promises ; but one would have expected , that in a reign of so much submission as this is , he should have rather shewed their fidelity and loyalty , that made them so easily believe a kings word : but it seems mr. varillas thinks it is a piece of imprudence to rely too much on that . 5. a prince's breaking his faith , is a thing that needs no aggravation ; yet for certain reasons that our author may guess at , if he will , he should not enlarge too much on this , even tho the promise had been given both frequently and solemnly ; for this awakens ill ideas in peoples minds : and makes them conclude with the ecclesiastes , that the thing which hath been , is that which shall be . 6. king henry excepted many out of the general pardon ; others were presently seised on for engaging into new conspiracies : and against all these he proceeded upon no pretended crimes , but upon that of high treason , for having been in actual rebellion against him . 7. all that suffered by form of law for those rebellions , were only two peers , six knights , and the wife of one of them , six abbots , and a monk , and sixteen men of a meanner rank : now considering what a formidable rebellion that had been , this will not appear to have been a very extraordinary severity ; and without running too far back , to things past the memory of man , it were possible to instance rebellions that were not so dreadful , and yet that have ended in many more sacrifices . 8. he tells us of some that died in secret ; if he means that died in their beds in prison , the thing may be very true : but then it is not extraordinary ; but if he means the putting them to death secretly , and the using them so barbarously , that they languished and died under the hands of their tormentors : he must know , that these are things which the english nation knows not ; they may be practised by courts of inquisition , or where dragoons , and de rapines have the execution of the kings parchment and wax put in their hands ; but all tryals and executions in england are open and publick ; which is too gentle a nation to bear the cruelty of torture . viii . mr. varillas would needs have an extraordinary stroke of providence appear here ; for he tells us , that the last of those who suffered under the hand of the hangman , was no sooner dead , then the kings beloved son the duke of richmond , whom he had designed to make his successor , died suddenly of a malignant feaver . but i had warned our author of the necessity of buying a chronological table ; for i saw what would come on it , if he would not be at that charge : the duke of richmond died the 22. of iune 1536. and the first of all the tumults that was begun in lincoln-shire , did not fall out before the october following : so here is a lovely stroke of the poem spoiled . 2. it does not appear that the king had any such design on this son of this : for as he gave him none of the titles of the royal family , so he did not raise him up to any such degree of lustre as must have naturally followed on such a design . ix . he joyns to this edward the sixths birth , and says , that his mother not being able to bring him forth , king henry ordered her belly to be opened ; saying , that he could find another wife , but that he was not sure to find another son : and that he began presently after her death to think on a fourth marriage . again it appears that mr. varillas wants a chronological table ; for he joins king edward's birth to the duke of richmond's death ; tho there was sixteen moneths between them ; for king edward was born the twelfth of october 1537. and that was nine moneths after all the executions were over . 2. king edward was born in the ordinary way , and the queen was as well a day after as any woman in her condition could be : of this there are many good proofs extant ; for her council writ letters over all england , giving notice of her safe delivery , and of her good health , and two days after , others say three days after , she was taken with a distemper ordinary to women in her condition , of which she died . 3. our author should have considered the decorum of his fable better , than to make the king speak of a son before he was born : it had been more natural to make him speak of a child indefinitly . 4. this queens death affected k. henry so much , that he let two years pass before he entred into any treaty for a new wife . 5. he puts this in the year 1538. tho it fell out in the year 1537. x. he opens upon the death a project for reconciling england to the court of rome : and says , that in order to the satisfying that court , it was not doubted but the parliament of england would annual king henry's second marriage , and declare elisabeth a bastard . he adds , that a marriage of king henry with margaret , daughter to francis the first , was projected : and here he shews , how great a resemblance of humours there was between them . he adds , that pope paul the third was much pressed by the colledge of cardinals , to fulminate against henry , since the cardinals hat , which he had sent to fisher , had only served to precipitate his death : upon which the pope was bound both in honour and interest to revenge that contempt that was put on the purple ; for if the persons of cardinals were not esteemed sacred , this would very much slacken their courage upon dangerous occasions : the pope therefore very dexterously resolved to shew his thunder without discharging it . so tho a new sentence was past , yet it was not published , in hopes that the king , for the safety of his person , that was always exposed to the resentments of zealous catholicks , or for the securing himself from those seditions which broke out in one place , as soon as they were quieted in another , would at last reconcile himself to the holy see. the only project that was ever set on foot after the breach , for reconciling england to the court of rome , was almost two years before this , upon anne bullens fall : for then the pope proposed it to cassali , that had been the kings ambassador at rome , but the king rejected it with so much scorn , that in his next parliament he past two laws against all commerce with that court , severer than any of the former . 2. there was no need of asking an act of parliament for annulling the kings marriage with anne bullen , and for illegitimating the issue ; for that was already done , upon a confession of a pre-contract that was drawn from her : of which it is plain mr. varillas knew nothing , tho it is in our statute books , and these were then printed both in french and english. 3. it does not appear that there was ever the least motion of a marriage between king henry and margaret of france , muchless that it was believ'd concluded . 4. our author does not observe the decency of the cardinals pressing the pope to severity , when he expressed it by his revenging the contempt put upon the purple . it must be confessed , that this is too haughty a stile for him that pretends to be the vicar of christ : the language of revenge does not agree with the meekness of the lamb of god. 5. but if he makes the cardinals speak a little too high with relation to the popes resentments , he makes them as abject as can be in their own particulars ; since they own , that the ground of their courage in serving the holy se● on dangerous occasions , was the sacredness of their persons , which must be maintained , otherwise it could not be expected that they would expose themselves any more . there is no courage when a man knows he is invulnerable . it seems mr. varillas thinks , that the colledge of cardinals have not the spirit of martyrdom among them : now tho it is very likely that this may be true , yet mr. varillas had shewed more respect if he had suppressed it . 6. the sentence which mr. varillas represents , as past at this time , but not pronounced , was passed two years before this , the first of september 1535. so little is he exact , that he does not examin the days of printed bulls . 7. mr. varillas represents this present negotiation as in the year 1538. which he sets on his margin , yet the final publishing of the sentence was on the 17. of december 1538. so that all this delay of the sentence , and that which follows , could not belong to this year ; but it must come in here for amours giving a lustre to romances ; our author thought , it was necessary to make them have a large share in all his relations , and if the dates of matters will not agree , there is no help for it , he must pass over such inconsiderable things . 8. zealous catholicks again for rebels . xi . he goes on to dream , and fancies , that since the daughter of france was christned by king henry , both francis and he would be obliged to send to rome for a dispensation ; and that the pope resolved not to grant it , but after that england should be reconciled to the holy see. therefore to facilitate this matter , the pope sent for pool , who was then at padua , and he made him a cardinal , and sent him to france , to set on that design : which pool , who loved his countrey to excess , undertook with all possible zeal . but the king of england by a fatal blindness rejected all this . and here he pretends to tell what might be the secret reasons of it , in his way , that is to say , very impertinently . he adds , that king henry sent to francis , to demand cardinal pool as a fugitive and a traytor , and that he cited the examples of charles the fifth , and of his father , who had delivered up princes of the house of york to the kings of england ; and in conclusion , that henry threatned francis , that if he did not grant his desire , he would break the league in which he was with him , and would make one with the emperour against him . if mr. varillas had seen card. pools book against king henry , which he pretends to have lying before him , he would have known that it was printed in the year 1536. in which he had used the king in a stile that no crowned head in the world could al ow of : but the conclusion of it was beyond all the rest ; for he conjured the emperour to turn his arms rather against the king than against the turk ; and it was known in england , that he had obtained this commission to be sent to france , only that he might set on a league between the two crowns , against england ; and so it was no wonder if the king resented his being well received in the court of france . 2. it is not to be imagined , that when charles the fifth was contriving how to make war upon england , and was the person that chiefly supported cardinal pool , that , i say , king henry would be so highly displeased with the civility of the court of france to the cardinal , as to threaten upon that to join with the emperour , who was the kings chief enemy , and the spring that set pool in motion ; therefore all this whole negotiation is to be reckoned among our authors fictions , since he gives no proofs of it . xii . mr. varillas says , that king henry set fifty thousand crowns on cardinal pools head : and upon this he grafts a new fable . but in the sentence , and act of attaindor against pool , there is not a word of any sum set on his head ; so this was a small decoration that was not to be omitted by a man that does not trouble himself to examin , whether what he writes is true or not . xiii . if mr. varillas were not so excessively ignorant as he is of the history of england , he would not have passed over the great advantage he had here of reproaching king henry , with that which was indeed the greatest blemish of his whole reign , and that was first practised on the countess of salisbury , cardinal pools mother , whom by an affectation contrary to our rules , he calls princess margaret , the title princess being affected in england to our kings children ; and not being so much as given to their brothers children , who are only called ladies : this piece of tyranny was , that she was condemned without being brought to make her defence , or to be heard answer for herself . now i leave it to the reader to judge how well informed mr. varillas is , who is ignorant of that which is to be found in every one of our writers , that have given the history of that time : and which would have furnished him with the best article of his whole satyr against king henry . xiv . he tells us ; that calvin writ an apology for king henry's conduct in that matter ; upon which he makes a long excursion . but i know nothing of this matter ; i believe it not a whit the better , because mr. varillas sayes it ; and it does not appear among his printed works . he adds , that the accusation was false that was brought against card. pool , as if he had formed a design to raise troops in picardy and normandy , and to make a descent with them to assist the zealous catholicks of england : one reason that he gives to prove it false , is , that the english were at that time masters of the sea. the good opinion that mr. varillas has of the rebellions of the zealous catholicks of england returns often in this kind epithet , that he bestows on them . but for this accusation of cardinal pools , our author may very well answer it ; for i believe , it was never made by any before himself : yet so unhappy is he , that he must discover his ignorance in every page and line of his book . the kings of england had then no fleets , and so they were not masters of the sea , unless he means that the soveraignty of the four sea 's belonged to the crown of england , in which sense i acknowledg , that not only then , but at all times , the king of england is master of the sea. xv. mr. varillas , after he had carried his romance to make the round to other parts , returns back to england ; but i do not know by what ill luck it is , that there is not one single paragraph that relates to our affairs that is true : he begins here with the pretended sentence against latimer , bishop of vigorne , and scherton bishop of sarisbery , who were , as he says , not only degraded , but condemned to perpetual imprisonment , for having spoke somewhat against the six articles . 1. it is perhaps to descend too low to tell him , that he ought to have named those sees worcester and salisbury , and that the latter of those bishops was not scherton , but shaxton ; for the marking such small faults looks like a want of more material ones . 2. these two bishops were never degraded , but of their own accord they resigned their bishopricks , within three days after the act of the six articles had passed ; and it was some time after that , before they were put in prison , upon an accusation relating to the six articles , and not for latimer's having eat meat on a good fryday , as our author reports it in another place , having forgot what he had said here . for it is a very hard thing to remember lies , especially when the number of them is so excessively great . xvi . upon wolsey ' s fall he tells us , that the king cast his eyes upon thomas cromwel , to be his chief minister ; who was a gentleman of quality ; upon which he tells us , that the family of the cromwels was very antient , and had already produced some that had been raised to the chief imployments in the state ; and so he goes on to make a parallel between the late protector and king henry's minister : only he will not in this place examin whether the one descended from the other or not . one would wonder how it falls out that mr. varillas is so constantly mistaken , even in the most obvious matters : there is not one that writ in that time on those affairs , that does not take notice of the meanness of cromwel's birth ; for his father was a black-smith ; and his base extraction is particularly mentioned in the act that condemned him . 2. he is the first of his name that is spoken of in our story : for the family was so far from being antient , that it was not known before him . 3. oliver cromwel was no way related to him , and indeed not so much as by being originally of that name : being descended from an antient family in wales , of the ap william's , & at this time the welchmen beginning to take sirnames , who before went only by the name of some eminent man among their ancestors , with the addition of ap before it : this ap williams having received great obligations from cromwel , he made choice of his name . 4. our author says true here , that cromwel succeeded wolsey in the chief ministry , but yet he contradicts himself ; for he had said elsewhere , that by anne bullens means cranmer was raised at this time to the dignity of being the first minister : but he grows old , and it seems his memory decays ; all the rest of his character of cromwel , and the projects that he puts in his head are a continuation of the romance . xvii . mr. varillas will here rise above the vulgar , and give a representation of the state of the monasteries in england : he tells us , they had acquired the property of two thirds of the kingdom : and among the other effects of the power of the clergy , he mentions this , that the popes had many officers in england : for levying the peterpence , who had such an influence over the clergy , that they had the main stroak in our parliaments ; by which means it was , that tho the king of england was as to the outward appearance master of his kingdom , yet in effect he was far from it : and that as king henry had a mind to 〈◊〉 off this yoke , so cromwel suggested to him the method in which it might be done : and among other things , ●●nce the chief resistance that the crown had met with in parliament , had always come from the monks , he propos'd to the king the seising on their revenues . one would think that mr. varillas had intended to prepare an apology for king henry's seising on the abbey lands : for if they had two thirds of the kingdom , if they were influenced by italian ministers , and if they had always opposed the designs of the crown in parliament , here were very powerful reasons for suppressing them . 2. it is generally believed that the abbey lands might be one third of england : but no body ever carried the estimate of their wealth to so invidious a height before mr. varillas , as to imagin , that they were masters of two thirds of the nation . and as for that interest that he pretends that some italians have had in them , and the opposition that they gave the crown in parliament , these are either fictions of his own , or of some author as bad as himself , if any such can be found . in the times of king iohn , and of his son henry the third , the italians oppressed england severely , but they were far from doing it by the interest they had among the monasteries ; for it appears by matthew paris , how much they complained of that tyranny ; which was in a great measure repressed when england came to have kings who had more spirit : so that edward the first and edward the third made such effectual laws , that after their time we find no evidences of any great stroke that italian officers had in england . xviii . he represents the dissolution of the monasteries , as carried on by a project of cromwels , who got a great party among the monks to sign a petition to the king , for which he cites on the margin the expositive or preamble of it , in which they set forth their real unhappiness , tho they seemed to be happy , & that they could not bear the hardness of their condition , and therefore they implored the king's favour , that they might live as other englishmen , free from the constraint of vows , and the tyranny of the court of rome : and they added , that if the king would grant this petition , they prayed him to accept a free surrender of all their goods and lands . this , he says , was sent from house to house , and it was looked on as the master-piece of the reformation . mr. varillas has a mind to demonstrate to all the world , that he knows nothing of english affairs : for 1. there was never any such petition made . 2. i have published almost three hundred of the surrendess , of which the original deeds are yet extant : and these were all of one form , but were not in one writing , as he dreams : the preamble of all is the same : * that they have deliberatly , of certain knowledg , and of their own proper motion , and for some just and reasonable causes , that did especially move their souls and consciences , freely and of their own accord , given and granted to the king , &c. 3. it is plain our author knew nothing of the general visitation that was made of all the monasteries of england , and of the discoveries that were made of the most horrid of all vices , that god had punished with fire and brimstone from heaven , which reigned among them : and of the discoveries made of the instruments of coyning in several houses ; and of the false relicks and the impostures discovered in some images , of which the eyes and mouth were made to move by secret springs ; for these things , that were laid open in the publickest parts of the nation , disposed men to bear with the dissolution , which perhaps would not have been otherwise so easily brought about . 4. nor does our author know , that three years before the general dissolution , all the small monasteries were dissolved . in short , the great discoveries i had made of the progress of this matter , might have engaged a man even of an ordinary degree of carelesness , to have read what i had writ concerning it . but mr. varillas must be an original in every thing . xix . he says , this petition was no sooner read in parliament , than on the 28. of april 1539. they appointed that all the monasteries in england should be set open , and that their lands should be appropriated to the king for the encrease of his revenue ; upon this all was seised on , and there was so much wealth found among them , that out of the church of thomas becket alone , there were six cart load of plate and other things carried away ; and for such of the religious persons as would not quit their profession nor their lands , they proceeded against those who were of a meaner rank as guilty of a contempt of an act of parliament ; and those that were more considered , were attainted of treason , because some libels that had been writ upon the kings divorce , were found among their papers , in which the kings amours were painted to the life ; for these they were accused , as having not only concealed them , but preserved them to posterity : and by a new subtilty the crime of lese majesty was added to that of high treason : and here he comes over again with that of king edward's being cut out of his mothers belly , as if the frequent repeating of falsehoods would gain them the more credit . 1. dates are unhappy things for mr. varillas ; for this act did not pass before the 28. of iune . 2. this act did only confirm what was already done , but did not at all threaten any that would not surrender . 3. there were eighteen abbots present when the act was first read , and seventeen when it passed in the house of lords , and yet none of them opposed it . 4. there was no petition read in either house of parliament , that had been made by the monks ; for this act neither dissolved nor opened any monasteries , but only confirmed the kings title upon their surrenders . 5. his author sanders had raised up two chests of the plate that belonged to beckets shrine , to twenty six cart load : but it seems mr. varillas thought this a little too extravagant , so that he reduces it to a modester number of six ; but yet he should stick to his author . and here i must call to mind a passage of our author's , that had escaped me , concerning thomas beckets bones being raised and burnt ; as if the king had reviewed his process , and by a formal sentence degraded him of his saintship : whereas this matter passed without any sort of ceremony . becket did things that were of another nature than all that has been lately done in the business of the regale ; he was not content to disobey , but thundred against the king and the clergy , and the whole nation , that would not concur with him in his violences , which were such , that at this day they would not pass unpunished even in spain it self : and tho he was killed without any order of the king 's , it is known not only what pennance the king was forced to do , but what a superstition for his memory there followed upon his canonisation : there were two holy days assigned him : there was a iubily every fifty year , with plenary indulgences to all who visited his tomb , which brought sometimes an hundred thousand persons together ; and his altar was so much more valued than either christ's or the virgins , that by the old accounts yet extant it appears , that some years there were no offerings at all made at christ's altar ; and tho there were indeed some made at the virgin 's altar , yet those of becket's made a sum about twenty times more . so it was no wonder if king henry put an end to this superstition : and therefore he ordered the shrine to be broken , and the bones to be buried , as our authors say positively , tho the italians say they were burned ; for so it is specified in the bull : and indeed there had been no great fault if they had been burnt . 6. no man could be punished for refusing to surrender ; for the act of parliament required none to do it . 7. those who were attainted of treason , had been either in the rebellion , or had sent their plate to the rebels . 8. our author shews how well he understands our law , when he pretends to make a difference between high treason and the crime of lese majesty ; for they are one and the same thing : we do not use to express the highest sort of crimes against the state by the term of lese majesty , but only by that of high treason . 9. those libels of which he speaks , were only found among the carthusians ; and tho some of that order were put to death upon other accounts , yet these libels were only made use of to frighten them to surrender up their house : sure here are faults enough for one paragraph . xx. he gives us a long prospect of what cromwel thought on , and of what he should have thought on ; both being alike true and equally judicious : then he goes on to tell us the interests of the duke of cleves , and of his sister's qualities : and to shew us , how well he was informed of her greatest secrets ; he sayes , that she was fit for marriage before she was twelve year old : but that tho she had been courted by many princes , her brother was resolved to reserve her for such an alliance as might protect him against the house of austria . she was a lutheran , which did not please henry , yet at last the marriage was agreed on , and she came to england , and was married the third of ianuary 1540. 1. she had been contracted to prince of lorraine , and tho this was really of no force in law , yet it was afterwards pretended to dissolve her marriage with henry , as appears by the sentence : so much is our author a stranger to her story , tho he would make us fancy that he had memoirs concerning her from her chamber-maids , since he tells us when she was fit for marriage . 2. i have often warned our author to avoid the giving of dates ; for he is unhappy in them all : this marriage was made the 6. of ianuary , yet it is much for him to have hit the moneth right ; for he is not always so exact . xxi . he says , the king was so well pleased with this match , that immediately upon it , he made cromwel great chamberlain , and created him earl of essex , and made his son a lord. but this is so false , that the king from the time he saw anne of cleve , had an aversion for her ; and intended once to have sent her away without marrying her ; and after he had married her , he told cromwel how much he disliked her , and that he believed she was no maid , and that her person was loathsom ; so that he believed he should never be able to consummate the marriage ; so that cromwel had rather reason to apprehend , that this proving so unhappy , it would be his ruin. he was not made earl of essex till the april following ; so that as this marriage was too unlucky to do him any service , it seems it did not hurt him much neither . xxii . he shews us , how well he understands our constitutions , when he says , that the subsidy granted the king , was a tenth and the fourth part of a fifteenth : whereas it was a tenth and four fifteenths . xxiii . he says , that cromwel having met with some opposition by three members of parliament , who were the bishop of chichester , dr. wilson , and frammer , a merchant , he charged some false crimes on them , and put them in prison : but he proceeded more severely against john nevil , knight of the garter ; for he subordned false witnesses against him , so that he was beheaded . 1. the bishop of chichester comply'd with every thing that was done in parliament , as appears by the journal of the house of lords : but some correspondence that he held with the court of rome , being discovered about this time , he was put in prison ; but upon his submission he was set at liberty . 2. wilson being a clergy-man , could not be of the house of commons : and he was no bishop , so that he could not be a member of either house ; but he was clapt up as a compsice of the bishop of chichester's , and likewise set at liberty with him . frammer is not named , there is indeed one grunceter a merchant named , who was condemned of treason a year before this . 3. there was one sr. edward nevil , a knight , tho not of the garter , who was indeed condemned and executed a year before this ; but it was for being in a confederacy with cardinal pool , and more particularly for having said , that the king was a beast , and worst than a beast . god only knows whether the witnesses swore true or false against him . xxiv . he tells us , that c●omwel , to fill up the measure of his iniquities , , got a law to be made , by which he might easily dispatch all those who should oppose his designs : which was , that any man condemned in absence , without being heard to justify himself , either in person , or by proxy , should be esteemed as justly condemned as if it had been done in the common form . here is indeed the great blemish of of king henry's reign , and of cromwel's ministry : but it is told in such a manner by mr. varillas , that it appears to be no extraordinary thing as he relates it . 1. there was no law made about this , it was only practised by the parliament , as the legislative body , without giving the common courts of judicature the power of using it . 2. the condemning men in absence has been always practised by our law , when the absence was wilful : and if mr. varillas accuses the putting men to death upon such a sentence , it may probably be supposed to be an effect of his aversion to the king of england , and put here on design , to aggravate the execution of sr. thomas armstrong and the duke of monmouth , who were the two last that suffered being condemned in absence . 3. the heinousness of this matter , which our author shews he understood not , consists in this , that men who were in prison , were condemned upon the examination of witnesses against them , without confronting them with their witnesses , or bringing them to answer for themselves : now tho this was taken from the holy courts of inquisition , and was only put in practise by the parliament it self , yet i will not go about to soften , much less to justify a practice so contrary to the most indispensable rules of equity and morality . xxv . he says , k. henry being sooner disgusted at anne of cleve than he had been of his other wives , dissolved the marriage for two reasons ; the one was , that she was incapable of having children ; and the other was her heresy ; to which the english writers that favour henry add two others ; the one , that those of the league of smalcald , would not receive the english into their vnion ; and the other , that k. henry's interests were then changed : to these four reasons he adds a fifth , that she had not that engaging temper , that was necessary to charm henry . 1. it is a strange thing to see an historian mistake every thing , and that there should not be one single part of his work sound . the sentence annulling the k's . marriage with anne of cleve is printed , according to the record yet extant ; in which , as there is not one of all the reasons mentioned by mr. varillas , so there are other reasons that would have given him much better grounds to have censured this action , than those he sets up , chiefly the second , which is , that k. henry had not given an inward , clear , perfect , and entire consent to the marriage , which i had laid open with the indignation that so unjust a practice ought to raise in an historian ; since here a ground was laid down by which all faith and commerce among men is quite destroyed : so ill instructed was mr. varillas , that tho he had a mind to write a satyr against k. henry , he did not know where to take the true advantages , that a man better informed would have found if he writes panegyricks , as he does satyrs . mr. varillas will still be mr. varillas . xxvi . he pretends , that cromwell would not so far comply with the king's aversion to anne of cleves , as to concur with him in the divorce , which drew on him his ruin. his testimony was the fullest proof that the king made use of for obtaining the divoce ; but whether he consented to it or not , it cannot be known : if he refused to do it , he was so much the worthier man. xxvii . he tells us a long story of the different interests to which k. henry was leaning ; at last he says , that cromwellsigned a league in the kings name with the german princes , which some say , he did without the kings knowledge , th● others say the contrary : upon which the emperours ambassadours reproached the king with it , but the king denying it , the discovery was made : and after a dressing up of the scene with more of his visions , it ends in this , that cromwell was put in prison , yet he hoped to have justified himself for this treaty , if he had been brought to make his defence : but many other things besides this , were laid to his charge ; and the law that he had procured to be passed three moneths before this , of condemning men without hearing them , was applied to himself ; so he was condemned and executed the 6. of iuly ; his body being cut up , as is usual to traitors , and quartered . and to justify all this he cites on the margin cromwells process . but that process , or rather the act of parliament , that condemned him , is in print , taken from the record , in which there is not one word of all this business , of signing a league with forreign princes without the kings orders . 2. no such thing can be done according to our forms . amhassadours that have formal powers can sign leagues , but the ministers about the king cannot bind him , nor sign leagues without him : and no prince would have either asked or accepted any such thing 3. all that is objected to cromwell in his condemnation , is so inconsiderable , that it is plain there was no great matter against him ; some malversations and illegal warrants , some high boasting words , is all that is to be found in his attaindor 4. there was no such law ever made ; for parliaments do not make laws , with relation to their own proceedings : but this practice was indeed begun , not three moneths , but a full year before this . 5. mr. varillas is incurable in his venturing upon dates ; for cromwels execution was not on the 6. but on the 18. of iuly . 6. cromwel was only beheaded ; it is true the hangman did it in a butcherly manner ; but all the rest is fiction , and i am not much concerned whether florimond or mr. varillas is the contriver . xxviii . he says , anne of cleves was terrified with a sentence of death , as being a heretick , and that she was so far wrought on by that , as to become the chief instrument of her own degradation ; for she confessed that she had promised marriage to another before king henry had pretended to her ; upon which her marriage was dissolved , and she was sent back to germany . i have already shewed the falsehood of this from the sentence it self , that dissolved the marriage . nor did she ever go back to germany , but stayd still in england , being contented with the appointments that were set off for her , and with the honour of being made the king's adopted sister , which it seems was more supportable to her , than to return to her own countrey with the infamy of such a degradation : which she indeed bore , either with the constancy of a great philosopher , or with the insensibility of one that was extreamly stupid . xxix . he tells us of a new project of a reconciliation with the pope , in which he is so particular , as to set down the articles that were proposed , and king henry's exceptions to them : and he tells us at last , that king henry stood so much on the point of honour , that he thought it below his dignity to make any submission to the pope . all this is fiction , without the least proof : for it does not appear , that after that proposition that was made upon anne bullen's fall , there was ever the least step made by either side in this matter . our author had heard there was one made , but not knowing where to place it , his fancy rambled about . indeed the king was so much alienated from the court of rome , that gardiner and knevet being sent ambassadours to the diet at this time , one discovered to knevet some secret enterviews that had passed between gardiner and the legate : which gardiner considered as so great an injury to him , and as that which must have ruined him in the kings spirit , that he prosecuted the informer as a slanderer , and got him to be put in prison : concerning which , his letters to the king are in print : which shew clearly , that there was no such negotiation at this time on foot , otherwise those secret enterviews could not have been such offensive things . xxx . mr. varillas says , that the k. who would not submit himself so far as to confess his sins , did a much meaner thing ; for he accused his queen , katherine howard to the parliament , for her disorders , both before and after her marriage with thomas culper and francis dirham , and so her head was cut off there are few writers that do not at some time or other tell things true ; but mr. varillas must needs be an extraordinary person , and commit such errors as no other man ever did before him . catherine howard's incontinence was discovered , and proved many moneths before the parliament met : nor would the king at all appear in the business , as it is expresly mentioned in the record . it were too great an honour to our author , to insist on such small faults as that he names the persons wrong . xxxi . nor ought i to make any great account of his ignorance of our english families , since he calls catherine parre sister to the earl of essex , who was sister to the marquis of northampton ; these things might indeed be forgiven him , if it were not that he sets them down to shew how well he is informed even in the smallest matters , which no doubt will make some impression on strangers , who do not know our affairs , nor our pedigrees . xxxii . he reproaches the emperour for making a league with henry against francis , notwithstanding his schism . but why might not charles the fifth do the same thing , that francis had done for seven years together ? it is known , that francis was not so scrupulous as to decline the making of any league , that might be to his advantage , not only with schismaticks , but even with mahometans : and some have been so malicious as to say , that this is a maxim that some of his successors have thought fit to keep up and put in practise against the house of austria . xxxiii . mr. varillas tells us , that richer was appointed to set on the king of denmark against england , and that he represented to him , that king henry had taken occasion to come over to picardy , at the same time that charles the fifth entred into champaigne with a formidable army , and that k. henry had besieged bulloigne , and tahen it , therefore the k. of france resolved to make england the scene of the war : and that since he knew the great pretensions that the crown of denmark had upon england , which his subjects had formerly conquered , he thought the present conjuncture proper for the renewing these : so he invited him to share with him , and to accept the provinces that lay over against denmark , while the french king should seise on those that lay nearer him . now it is to be considered , that this was in the year 1542. as he warns us by his margin ; and all this is founded , as he told us in his preface , on richers negotiation , of whose relation he makes so great an account , telling us both that he was the first that negotiated according to form with the kings of the north , and owning that he had drawn his thirteenth book out of his memoirs , in which there are some things that by the order of time had belonged to his fifth book , but he had not seen those memoirs when he writ his first volum , therefore his reader must forgive him if there is any disorder in the recital that he gives : and now from all this one would he disposed to believe , that there is some truth in this matter , and that he has really such a book of memoirs in his hands ; but i need give no other proof to shew that all this is imposture , save that bulloign was not taken before the 18. of september 1544. so that all this negotiation of richers in 1542. must have been by the spirit of prophesy . 2. the state of denmark at that time must make this project appear very ridiculous , since they were far from being in a condition to set out great fleets , and make conquests . 3. at this time francis did indeed engage the king of scotland to make an invasion into the north of england , which was a more reasonable project : and that which our author might have more justly guess't at , tho he had known nothing of it ; for it was an easy thing to engage the scots to fall into england , but that was too true and too natural , therefore our author , who loves to elevate and surprise his reader , would needs despise the project in scotland , and so would carry it over to denmark . 4. it is also no less clear , that francis was at that time in no condition to make a descent upon england , otherwise he used the scots very ungratefully ; for tho he had engaged them in the war , yet he left them to be overrun by the english without giving k. henry any considerable diversion . 5. but our authors setting on the king of denmark to renew pretensions of five hundred year old , is of a piece with the law at metz : and when england will examin its ancient pretensions to some provinces in a neighbouring kingdom , as it needs not go so far back , so it will not be put to found them on hostile descents and depredations , which was all the pretension that the crown of denmark could ever claim , but on clear and undisputed rights : tho i confess they have been both discontinued and renounced ; but i build on the modern law , that neither prescriptions , treaties nor oaths can cut off the rights of a crown , which are sacred and inalienable . thus i have gone over his third tome , and i think i have missed nothing that relates to english affairs . i confess i may have passed over some particulars that may perhaps lie involved in other relations , as this of richers had almost escaped me . i have turned all his leaves over and over again to see for any thing that might relate to england . but i could not prevail with my self to read him all ; for i am now past the age of reading romances . xxxiv . mr. varillas begins his discourse concerning english affairs in his fourth tome , with a character of k. henry's cruelty , that deserves indeed to be put in capitals ; he says , that during his sickness , his conscience had time to reproach him , with the 2. cardinals , the 3. archbishops , the 18. bishops , the 14. arch deacons , the 500. priests , abbots , and priors , the 60. canons , and 50. doctors , 12. dukes , earles , or barons , 29. knights , 336. gentlemen , and almost an infinite number of people , whom he had put to death for establishing his primacy over the church of england . and because all this was so remarkable , he would not put the numbers in ciphers , but in words at large ; and by the exactness of his small numbers , a man that is not aquainted with his talent , would be tempted to think this might be true : but what will he say , if of all those ten items , besides the great et cetera of the infinit number , there is not one that is either true or near truth . 1. fisher was the only person that can be called a cardinal , that was put to death . 2. there was not one archbishop that suffered ; and tho the archbishop of york concurred in the yorkshire rebellion , yet the king included him in the indemnity . 3. there was not one bishop that suffered , unless he subdivides fisher , as he did charles the fifth , and makes both a cardinal and a bishop out of him . 4. there is not an archdeacon to be found among all that died in this reign . 5. for the 500 priests , abbots and priors , there were only 9. abbots , 3. priors , 18. priests , and 9. monks that suffered , which according to my arithmetick makes only 39 : but an imagination that multiplies as mr. varillas's does , can swell this up to 500. 6. there is but one among all that suffered that can be thought a canon , crofts , that is designed in the record chancellor of exeter . 7. there is but one doctor , unless fisher comes into the account again . 8. all of the nobility that were executed during this reign , were one duke , a marquis , 3. earls , and 3. lords , which make 8. but this comes the nearest his number ; yet since the marquis that suffered was k. henry's cosen german , he might have put marquises among the degrees of the peers that he reckons up , as well as the rest . 9. there were only ten knights that were put to death ; so the 19. more are of his creating . 10. there are ouly 33. others that suffered , of which some were only yeomen to make up his 336. gentlemen ; and now i have set down the list exactly of all that died by the hand of justice in this reign : so that there is not a man left for his &c. of almost an infinite number of people . but besides this , all these except only 12. persons , suffered either for being in actual rebellion , or for entring into conspiracies for the raising of one ; so small was the number of those who suffered for denying the kings supremacy , and even of these a distinction is to be considered , which i must explain , because some have fancied , that i had contradicted my self in different parts of my history , having said in some places , that none suffered for not acknowledging the kings supremacy , and having set forth in other places , that men died for denying it . but the refusing to swear the oath of supremacy was only punishable at first with a premunire , that is loss of liberty and goods , so that those who suffered were not condemned for refusing to swear that oath , but for their having spoken against the supremacy : now the refusing to swear it , and the speaking against it , are two different things ; which some have confounded . it is true , afterwards a law was made , declaring it to be high treason to refuse to swear the supremacy . but no man ever suffered upon that law ; for no man ever refused it after that law was made . and thus we see what we may expect from our author after such a beginning . xxxv . he says , king henry seemed to repent of what he had done when he was near death , and that he spake with gardiner concerning it , who upon that advised him to call a parliament . but the falsehood of this is too visible ; for there was a parliament then sitting , which was dissolved by the king 's death . xxxvi . he says , the church of the franciscans was opened in london , 25. dayes before his death ; and he had said before , that king henry was 57. years of age compleat when he dyed . this church that he represents as the cordelier's church , was indeed opened ; but it was in order to the making it an hospital , and was no more the cordeliers church . but now i will shew mr. varillas , how just i am to him ; for i think i am bound to take notice that this date is right : for tho it is of no great consequence , yet it is the first that i have found him give true : and perhaps it is true , because it is of no consequence : but he is above a full year wrong in a matter of greater importance , which is king henry's age ; for he was born the 28. of iune 1491. so on the 27. ianuary or the 28. for he dyed in the night between them 1547. he wanted five moneths of six and fifty : so natural is it for mr. varillas to mislead his reader in every thing . xxxvii . he says , the disorder of the kings marriages , and the three children that he had by three of them , gave grounds to apprehend a civil war upon his death , against which he provided by putting his only son edward first in the succession . but out of what part of our authors study of the law , did he find this , that a son of an unquestioned marriage on all hands , could receive any opposition from two sisters , both born in marriages that had been questioned . the succession had been also expresly regulated by act of parliament , and the kings power of disposing of it by his testament was only in default of all his own children , or of issue by them . xxxviii . he gives us a character of the duke of somerset , that shews how well he knew him : he says , he had an extraordinary capacity , and a penetration of spirit superiour to the greatest affairs . the d. of somerset was indeed a man of great probity ; but his capacity and penetration of spirit were far from extraordinary . mr. varillas thought those strokes were magnificent , so he did not trouble himself , whether they were true or false . xxxix . mr. varillas tells us , that somerset represented to the english nobility , the inconvenience of having 16. governours for their young king , as king henry had determined it : and that three parts of four of these were most zealous for reconciling england to the see of rome ; and so no doubt they would breed up the king in those sentiments , and by consequence as soon as the king came of age , he would annul all that his father had done , which would ruin the whole nobility : and that since it was much fitter to have only one regent , he engaged to them , that if they would pitch on him , he should take care of the kings education , and should be so far from disturbing the nobility in the possession of the church lands , that he should grant them all the ratifications that should be necessary : all this was so well received , that king henry's true testament was suppressed , and a new one was forged , by which somerset was declared regent and protector ; which surprised all those who had the chief interest to maintain the government during the minority , in the state in which king henry had left it . 1. king henry died the 28. of ianuary , upon which the young king was presently brought up to london , and upon the first of february somerset was declared protector . 2. this was not done by the interposition of the nobility , but by the consent of the major part of the sixteen governours , whom king henry had named ; and the original instrument of this under all their hands is yet extant . 3. there was no new will forged ; for that which was then published , was the same that made all the sixteen equal in power : and somerset had the title of protector given him by these only , with this express condition , that he should do nothing without the advice and consent of the rest . nor was it ever pretended , that king henry had ordered it so by his will : so all that negotiation with the nobility , is to pass for a fiction of mr. varillas's , or of some other that is about his pitch of sincerity . xl. he says , vrisly the chancellour was the only person that complained of this ; but that was made use of as a pretence to send him away from the court. 1. wriothesley the chancellour perhaps did not like somerset's advancement ; but he signed it with the rest . 2. the pretext upon which he was turned out , was the passing an illegal patent , for divolving the execution of his office , in the matters of justice to some other persons , which being contrary to law , he to redeem himself from a further censure , resigned his place . xli . he says , somerset forbad the bishops to confer orders without the kings permission , and made them come up to london to obtain it , and that he granted it only for a limited time , and during pleasure : and that he forced the new preachers to take their mission for it under the kings name : and by this means he hindred those to preach who were able to defend the catholick doctrines . and for the proof of all this he cites the ordonnances of edward the sixth . there is a particular misfortune on mr. varillas in all he writes ; for tho there was indeed an act of parliament , passed before the end of this year , that did very much subject the bishops in many things to the regal power ; yet there is a special exception in it of collations , or presentations to benefices , and of letters of orders , in which no limits were set them . 2. the licences that were given to preachers , were only civil things , being permissions to preach ; but there was nothing of mission pretended to be in them . 3. tho the king did licence some preachers , to preach in any part of england , yet the bishops retained still their authority of granting them within their own diocesses . 4. that which mr. varillas perhaps relates to , in some parts of this period , is , that under king edward , the bishops were obliged to take out new commissions from the king , such as they had taken out under king henry , for holding their bishopricks during the kings pleasure . this bonner , and some of the other popish bishops , had first set on foot under king henry , hoping by so abject a submission to gain much credit with him : but cranmer prevailed so far as to get this to be quickly laid aside . and now all these things shew that our author is still as careful as he was in his citations . xlii . he pretends , that cranmer set out at this time a catechism , which inclined more to the lutheran doctrine , upon which the protector looked down upon him , not thinking it fit to carry his displeasure farther . cranmer could not know to what the protector 's coldness was to be ascribed , but fancying that a further declaration of himself was expected , he professed himself a lutheran , and took a wife , whom he had seduced while he was in germany , and had entertained ever after as a concubine . 1. cranmer did not set out his catechism , till about two years after his . 2. somerset and he were always in a very perfect friendship . 3. he had married his wise before he came out of germany , and had owned it to king henry . it is true , upon the act of the six articles he had sent her over to germany , so that all he did at this time , was only to bring her over again , and to own her more publickly . xliii . i pass over what he says here of latimers degradation , having reflected on that formerly : he says , the duke of sommerset set two men about the king for his education ; the one was richard croc , and the other was john cheek , a libertin , that every day gave new cause of scandal . but 1. these who were trusted with the education of king edward , were no other than those that his father had set about him , ever since he was six year old , as is set down by that young king in the iournal of his own life , writ with his own hand . 2. our author it seems knows both their names and their characters alike ; for he , whom he calls croc , was cox ; and for sr. iohn cheek , he was not only one of the learnedest , but was esteemed one of the vertuousest gentlemen of his age : he was indeed prevailed on thro fear , to sign an abjuration of his religion in queen mary's days ; but that did so strike him , that he not only went out of england quickly , and made an open retractation of what he had done , but was so affected with the sense of it that he could never overcome it , but fell into a languishing , of which he soon after died . xliv . he says , that bucer avowed to the duke of northumberland , that he did not believe all that was said of jesus christ in the new testament . 1. sanders , who very probably made this story , said , it was to the lord paget ▪ that bucer said this ; but now the man is changed . 2. if this had been said to the duke of northumberland , it is very probable that when he declared his aversion to the reformed religion , and to the preachers of it , at his death , this , which was beyond all other things , would have been mentioned . 3. or at least , when bucer's process was made , and his body burnt , this would have been very probably made use of , if the lye had been then made . 4. no man of that age writ with a greater sense of the kingdom of christ , than bucer did , in the book on that subject which he writ for king edward's use . xlv . he tells us , that on the fourth of november , 1547. at london , a new form of religion was set up , which as to the doctrine was almost the same with calvinism ; but they retained the rites and the exterior of lutheranism ; they appointed all the church-lands of england to be annexed to the crown , and never to be again dissolved from it : they also appointed , that there should be a new form of administring the sacraments , different from the roman : that bishops and priests should be ordained by this form : that images , which were yet held in reverence in some places , for the miracles that had been wrought before them , should be taken away ; and the kings arms put in their stead : that the roman missal should be abolished , and that the sacrament should be given in both kinds ; and in fine , that the divine offices , and above all the canon of the liturgy , should be said only in english , tho the irish and welsh , who were almost as numerous as the english , understood that langage no more than they did the latin. and thus by a revolution that will appear almost incredible to those who know perfectly the genius of the english nation , they peaceably changed their religion , under a minority , without any opposition . here much patience is requisite to read or examin such a confusion of matters , as mr. varillas gives us all at once . but 1. the new form of religion was not set out till five year after this , in the year 1552. 2. the church-lands were never annexed to the crown ; but mr. varillas's mistake is , that those chantry-lands , that had not been suppressed by king henry , were indeed given to king edward by an act that passed not the fourth of november , but the fourteenth of december , 1547. 3. the new form of administring the sacraments was not set out till the fifteenth of ianuary , 1549. 4. the new form of ordinations was not set out before the year 1550. 5. images were ordered to be all removed by an order from the council the eleventh of february 1548. 6. there was never an order made for setting up the king's arms in the churches , tho it was done in most places . 7. our author had said , that a new form of administring the sacraments different from the roman was appointed , and now as in a new article he tells us , that the roman missal was abolished ; but this is one of the indications from which we may measure his profound judgment . 8. he puts at the end , that the sacrament was appointed to be given in both kinds , whereas this was done first of all in an act that past the twentieth of december , 1547. 9. he very learnedly makes a distinction between the divine offices , and the canon of the liturgy , tho as they are in themselves one and the same thing , they are likewise used promiscuously in england . 10. the law for the service in english did not extend to ireland , and care was taken to put it quickly into welch . 11. it seems he knows the estimate of our numbers as well as he does other things , who says , the welch and irish are as many almost as the english ; whereas they are not perhaps above the tenth man to the english. 12. thus we see his fruitful fourth of november , 1547. which he had made so productive , is stript of all , and not any one of all those great changes belongs to it . but to comfort mr. varillas a little , i will tell him , that the parliament that enacted one or two of the things he names , was indeed opened the fourth of november , 1547. but it is long after a parliament is opened , before an act is passed : and thus it appears , that all that sudden change , was a dream of our author . xlvi . he says , there were five bishops , london , winchester , duresm , chichester , and worcester , and some of the most learned in the house of commons , that opposed these things ; but yet as soon as they were decreed , they complyed , and professed the new religion . there were many of the other bishops that opposed them , as well as those five ; nor did they ever concur with that which he calls the new religion ; for they were all turned out of their bishopricks before the year 1552. in which the articles of our religion were agreed on , and set out by authority . so that if our author had known the story better , he should have valued them as confessors ; for tho they comply'd in a great many things , yet it appers that they were still true to their old perswasions ; upon which they fell in trouble , and were not only turned out illegally , but kept in prison for several years , till queen mary set them at liberty . xlvii . he says , that king henry had ordered the bible to be printed correctly , and that he had put with it erasmus's last paraphrase on the new testament ; but the duke of somerset found this translation did not agree so well with the doctrine of the sacramentary's , so he ordered a new translation to be made , that was more favorable to their figurative expressions . at which the press●s wrought so long , till there was not only a sufficient number of copies printed off for all the parish churches , but likewise for all that could read . there was no new translation of the bible thought on during this reign ; for that was done in queen elisabeth's time : so that king henry's continued all this reign . nor had king henry put erasmus's paraphrase either with the bible , or in the churches ; for that was done by the duke of somerset ; and gardiners letters to him are yet extant and in print , complaining of that paraphrase in a great many particulars . so constantly mistaken is our au●hor even in matters concerning which it had been easy for him to have found better information . xlviii . mr. varillas tells us , that the archbishop of york , and the bishops of chester , mena and sadore comply'd outwardly as sacramentaries ; but lived in the secret practice of the catholick religion : somerset was informed of this , so he ordered some to tell them , that they were the only prelates of england , that were opposite to the publick religion : and therefore the king desired to be satisfied in that matter : so the tryal that was required of them , was , that they should marry : which tho it was somewhat uneasy , to men past threescore , yet they comply'd , even in this : and somerset having by this means rendred them very contemptible , did not only banish them , but put them in prison : and he treated other bishops in the same manner for their defending the catholick religion in full parliament , tho they had done it very feebly . 1. i find mr. varillas is as ignorant in geography , as he is in chronology : for among all the bishopricks of england he will neither find mena nor sadore . 2. there is indeed an island , that lyes between england and ireland , that is a soveraignty , belonging to the earl of derby . but the island is man , or in latin mona , but was never called mena. in this island there is a bishop , who is called bishop of man , but he writes it in latin sodore : so this is wrong put by mr. varillas sadore ; yet these may be faults of the press : but the making two bishopricks out of one , and the making this bishop subject to the king of england , and receiving orders from the protector , are faults that he cannot turn over upon his compositor . 3. it does not appear that either the archbishop of york , or the bishop of chester , did ever oppose any thing in parliament : for tho many of the other bishops voted against the changes that were made in matters of religion , as appears by the journals of the house of lords , yet these two concurred in every thing : and all henry's time , holgate was considered still as one united to cranmer , and he was by his interest raised to the see of york : as for the bishop of chester , i confess , i know no particulars . 4. it is true that they were both married ; for i found a commission issued out by queen mary for turning them out , because of their marriage : but it is certain , that they were neither in disgrace , nor in prison , all king edwards reign : for the archbishop of york was all this while in high favour . 5. england is not a countrey in which the displeasure of a regent , or even letters under the cachet can either banish or imprison men , chiefly when that is founded only on some suspitions . no ; it is a countrey governed by law : but it seems mr. varillas had his head full of somewhat nearer him when he writ this . xlix . he sets out the constancy of queen mary , during her brothers reign , and that she continued firm in the religion of her ancestors : that tho somerset brought the italian divines martyr and ochin to her , to convince her , she answered all their objections with great vigor ; she spoke stoutly to somerset ; she interrupted the privy councellours , when they spoke to her of those matters ; and she would ●ever hear any of their sermons , but one only . in short , that she threatned those , that threatned her : and told them , a time would come in which they should answer for that . her constancy was such , that at last somerset desired only , that she would at least shut her chappel doors when mass was said ; but even in that she satisfied him as little as in other things . here are so many lovely strokes , that it is a great pity they are all false . 1. some letters past between the protector and her , that are in print ; but it does not appear that ever he spoke to her upon this subject . 2. she never pretended to be of the religion of her ancestors ; but by all her letters she declared , she was of the religion that her father had setled : and she always insisted on his laws , pretending that in a minority they could not be altered . 3. she spoke french well , and understood latin ; but she could neither speak italian , nor latin : so she could have no conversations neither with p. martyr , nor ochin : nor is this named among all the letters that were writ concerning this business . 4. she would never hear any one sermon ; so here the character was as much slackened , as it was raised in the other parts of this paragraph . for when bishop ridley went to her , and offered to preach before her , she told him plainly , that she would never hear any one of them . 5. the princess was too discreet to threaten her brothers ministers , or to talk of a time in which they might be called to an account for what they did : for such language never comes from collateral heirs , unless they are extream indiscreet . 6. the great dispute with the princess , fell out after somerset's disgrace , and was chiefly set on by the king her brother , who could hardly be prevailed with by the privy conncil , to consent to her having mass still said in her chappel ; and after he had talked with her himself upon that matter , he sets down these words concerning the resolution that was taken , in his journal . the bishops of canterbury , london , rochester , did consider , to give licence to sin was sin : to suffer and wink at it for a time , might be born , so all hast possible might be used . l. he says , there was no appearance that king edward could live till he should be of age , so that princess mary was considered not only as the presumptive , but as the necessary heir of the crown . but at this time the prince of spain lost his wife , and charles the fifth comforted himself with the hopes of uniting england to his other dominions by marrying his son to her ; so that emperour resolved to protect her , and sent vargas both to entreat , and if that prevailed not , to threaten somerset , in case he gave any further disturbance to her , upon which he was forced to let that matter fall . all this is so false , that the emperour set on a treaty of marriage for the princess with the prince of portugal , of which i gave an account in my history : but since that time a volum of original letters has been sent me by the heirs of sr. philip hobby , who was then ambassadour in the emperours court : in which i find more particulars relating both to this marriage , and to the princesses permission for having mass in her house . there is one letter , dated the 19. of march , 1550. signed by all the council , in which they write , that since the infant of portugal was only the kings brother , they give up the treaty for the match : yet the emperour insisted on the proposition that he had made : so there is another original letter , dated the 20. of april thereafter , in which they desire to hear all the particulars that related to the infant of portugal , and in that they write , that as for the lady mary 's mass , they had formerly connived at it , but now stricter laws were made : they had connived so long , hoping that at last she would be prevailed upon : but that a diversity of rites in matters of religion was not tolerable , therefore they would grant her no licence , yet they would connive at her a little longer : but she abused the young kings goodness , for she kept as it were open church both for her servants and neighbours . they therefore conclude , wishing that the emperour would give her good advice in this matter . this letter of which i had the original long in my hands , is signed by ten privy councellours , and will be i suppose a little better believed , than the quotation that mr. varillas sets on his margin of vargas's negotiation ; and all this was transfacted after the duke of somersets disgrace . li. he tells us a long story of the methods that the admiral used to compass the marriage of the queen dowager : and the ways he took to engage his brother somerset , to consent to it . somerset moved it to the king , who consented to it likewise , so that the marriage was made up in hast , and without any solemnity . mr. varillas knows this matter , as he does other things , notwithstanding the shew he makes , by citing on the margin the relation of that intrigue , which is another of his impostures ; for by the articles that were objected to the admiral , which are in print , and of which the original is yet extant in the council book , it appears that the admiral had first courted the kings sister elisabeth , and that failing in this design , he afterwards married the queen dowager so secretly , that none knew of it , and so indecently , that if she had become with child , soon after the marriage , there would have been a great doubt whether the child should have been accounted k. henry's or his : that he kept the marriage long secret , & he prevailed with the king to write to the q. dowager , and with his brother to speak to her in his favour : and when all this was done , then the marriage was declared . so that all his fictions of somerset's design of marrying his daughter to the king , and of the remonstrances that the admiral made to his brother , as well as his citation , are manifestly false . lii . he sets out the common story of the dutchess of somerset's disputing the place with the q. dowager : and as if it had been a great affair , he spends two pages arguing both their pretensions . he reckons up the duke of somersets dignities , 1. he was the kings governour . 2. he was regent of the kingdom . 3. he was protector of the english nation , a dignity inferiour to none of the other , which was not much inferiour to the dictatorship among the ancient romans : and on the other hand , the admiral was the second office of the crown , and a charge for life . so that here was as he thought a section fit to be copied out by those who would treat of precedence . but 1. i have shewed fully , that all this quarrel of precedence among the ladies seems a fiction ; for it is not mentioned in all that time . 2. the offices of state in england , do not communicate any honour to the wife : so that the queen dowager had either still her rank of queen dowager , or she was only a baroness , her husband the admiral being only a baron . as the dutchess of somerset had only the rank of a dutchess . 3. it is clear that the q. dowager retained her rank , and was mentioned in all the publick prayers , even before the kings sister . 4. all those three places that mr. varillas gives somerset , were but one single office , and held by one single patent ; for to be protector and regent is the same thing in england . his comparing the protectors dignity to that of the roman dictators , is another stroke of his ill-will to the crown of england ; for among the romans all other offices ceased , when there was a dictator : so if this were in the english law , here were a short way of dethroning our kings . 5. the admiral is far from being the second office of the crown ; for it only has the precedence of all those that are of the same rank ; so that the admiral was only in rank the first baron of england : and tho the great navyes that have been built since that time , have made it indeed the first office , as to the real value of it , yet it was but an ordinary elevation when there were no royal fleets . 6. the admiral 's charge is forfeitable as well as any other in england , and of this a remarkable instance appeared in the year 1673. 7. the true occasion of the quarrel between the brothers , was , that tho the protector was governour of the king's person , yet these two trusts had been sometimes divided : so the admiral pretended to be made the governour of the king's person , and this gave his brother just cause of jealousy . he had engaged all that were about the king in his interests , and had once got the young king to write a letter to the parliament , recommending it to them . the protector was twice willing to be reconciled to him , after great quarrellings ; but his ambition was incurable . now since all this process and the articles against the admiral are printed from the original records , it is like mr. varillas to falsify this matter as he does . liii . he tells a long story , of a sermon of latimers , in which he named the admiral as one that disturbed the regency : and this was done by somerset's direction ; yet he seemed offended when it was told him ; and sent for latimer , and ordered him to retract that which he had said concerning his brother . but latimer reply'd boldly , that he knew the admiral had layd a design against the kings life , which he thought himself bound to discover : upon this the duke of somerset ordered the iudges to take his deposition ; yet he threatned to proceed against him with the utmost severity , if he were found to be a false accuser latimer had his witnesses laid , and the conspiracy was proved , upon which somerset seemed to be very much troubled ; yet he said , he must prefer the king's safety to all considerations whatsoever : so he signed a warrant for his brothers imprisonment , his process upon that was made , and he was found guilty of high treason , and condemned to be quartered , which was accordingly executed the 20. of march , 1549. i do not know how it comes that in such a series of falsehoods , our author has hit the date right : but it is the only circumstance of this whole recital that is true . for 1. it is true latimer in a sermon at court reflecting on the atheism of some about the king , described the admiral , who was a man that laughed at religion : but this had nothing to do with the state , and nothing followed upon it . 2. the admiral had broke out the former year , and thought to have made a rent in the parliament : yet that had been made up , and somerset had made him a very considerable grant out of the lands of the crown ; but he laid his design next year deeper , he bought magasins of arms , and listed many men : he intended to have carried away the king , and had ordered much false money to be coined : so that all this being discovered , he was clapt in the tower : yet a moneth past before the matters against him were brought in to the parliament : and during that time , somerset tryed , if it was possible to bring him to a better mind , but all was in vain . 3. he was not tryed by a common court of peers , but was condemned by act of parliament . 4. there was not a word said in the whole process , of any design on the kings life : on the contrary , he had gained so much upon the young king , that this gave the greatest jealousy of all . 5. he was not quartered , but only beheaded : for the original warrant for his execution is yet extant in the books of council , signed by all the privy councellours , that mentions expresly , that he should be beheaded , and that his head and body should be buried in the tower. and now is not mr. varillas a very credible author ? liv. our author sets down the agony , into which the admiral 's death threw his wife , and after he had turned this as romantically as he could , he makes her to dye , so soon after her husband , that she was buried at the same time with him . but if mr. varillas had seen the articles upon which the admiral was condemned , he would have found that the queen dowager was dead long before , ( for she died in the september preceding , and as was suspected of poison ) and that after her death , he had renewed his pretensions to the kings second sister , elisabeth , which is reckoned among his crimes , as it was certainly a very great one : and is it not now a great pity to see so tender a stroke in the romance spoiled ? lv. mr. varillas tells us a long story of the earl of warwick's designs to dismount somerset : for doing which the two occasions that presented themselves were , first , the taking of several forts in the bolognese , and that as the english had often failed in observing the law of nations , so the french treated them in the same manner , and put all that they took prisoners , to the edge of the sword : that the english souldiers who came over , complained that the forts that were lost , could not be longer desended for want of provisions ; that upon this warwick advised some malecontents , to demand the calling of a parliament : and perswaded somerset likewise to agree to it . the other was a general insurrection that was among the commons of england against the nobility : upon which warwick likewise pressed somerset to call a parliament . so the members were all chosen by the earl of warwicks means . there appeared before them more accusers and witnesses against the duke of somerset , than was needful for destroying him : upon which he was put in prison the 14. of october 1549. how it comes that mr. varillas has thus given two dates one after another true , amidst so much falsehood , is that which amases me . but the rest of this section is writ in his ordinary strain . yet before i open that , i will take the liberty to set down a passage relating to king henry the seconds invading the bolognese , which i have found in an original letter of the councils , writ to sr. philip hobby , tho mr. varillas will perhaps tell me upon it , that i have done an irreparable injury , to the memory of that king. in that letter , that bears date the seventh of september , 1549. and is signed by the duke of somerset and seven other councellors , they write , that the king of france had corrupted two , that had the charge of one of the forts , which was by that means lost , and this occasioned the loss of the other forts ; they were surprised with this invasion : for on the 20. of july last , the french king had promised to their ambassadour , par la foy d'un gentilhomme , that he would not make war without giving warning first : and yet he having heard of the progress of the insurrections that were in the several parts of england , broke his word four days after he made it . that was indeed thought strange in those dayes , but in our days it would not appear extraordinary : since we have seen promises publickly made , and broken in the very time ▪ in which they were made . but now to return to mr. varillas , 1. he forgot to mention the western rebellion , that hapned a little before that rising of the commons against the gentry : tho this was not kindly done of him , since it was by his friends , the zealous catholicks , who declared openly , that the change made in religion , was the reason of their rising . 2. there was no demand made of a parliament ; nor was there any need of calling or choosing one ; for there was one then on foot , running in a prorogation . 3. those insurrections were all quieted before there was any opposition made to the duke of somerset's government . 4. he was not at all questioned in parliament ; but in council ; for the greatest part of the councellors went to london , and joyned with the city to demand the king out of his hands , whom he had carried to windsor : and he finding that he was not able to stand against so strong a party , submitted himself to them , upon which he was not only turned out of his protectorship , but was also sent to the tower. and is not mr. varillas a fit person to undertake the writing of history , who does not know the most publick and the most important transactions of those times . lvi . the next time that mr. varillas returns to english affairs , he tells us , that dudley , earl of warwick , made head against the duke of somerset , and threw him out of the government , clapt him in prison , and cut off his head , according to form . now i lookt over and over again to see if there was an a linea here , because there was an interval of two years between : for the duke of somerset came again into a share in the government , with the rest , and was not beheaded before ianuary , 1552. above two year after this . mr. varillas had excused the like error in another place , by telling me , that he had begun a linea . and so by that , i should have known that there was an interval of two years : but that being omitted here , i hope he will forgive my taking notice of it . lvii . after this he gives a long negotiation between dudley now duke of northumberland , and the court of france : which i must conclude to be all a fiction ; for i never saw the least mark of any thing like it , in all the papers of that time . there is in this a lovely dash of a pen in the character of mr. de novailles , which no doubt mr. varillas hopes will draw him some recompence from his heirs . it is the greatest that can possibly be given , but it is certain , that it is as true as the other things that our author gives out so liberally : he says , that his foresight went so far , that the first advance that those who treated with him made , was sufficient to make him discover that which lay hid in their intentions what care soever they took to disguise them . but i allow him to go on in such excessive praises , only i wish he were a little less excessive , in something else , that i will not name . lviii . he pretends here , that both king edward 's sisters , elisabeth , as well as mary , made open profession of the catholick religion . the contrary to this is so well known , that tho it was often objected to queen elisabeth , that she had dissembled her religion in her sister queen mary's time , it was never so much as once objected to her , that she had professed popery in king edward's time . lix . after a series of things that are equally true and pertinent , he tells us , that when the d. of northumberland got the marriage of jean grey for his son guilford ; her two sisters were married to the earles of pembrok and huntington . but i have warned him not to medle with genealogies : yet nothing will prevail upon him . the duke of northumberland married his second daughter to the earl of huntington , his eldest having married to sidney , the earl of leicester's ancestor , in whose arms king edward dyed . lady gray's second sister was indeed marryed to the earl of pembrok's eldest son , and her third sister that was crooked , was married to one keyes , an ordinary gentleman . lx. he says , upon this nothing remained for the duke of northumberland to do , but to forge a testament for king edward , by which both his sisters and the queen of scotland were excluded from the succession : his sisters as being both bastards ; and the queen of scotland because born out of the kingdom : so that the succession came to the dutchess of suffolk's daughters . all this with all the other particulars mentioned by mr. varillas , which are too many to be set down , are all false . in the declaration that king edward made , there is no special exclusion of his sisters , or of the queen of scots , tho they are in effect excluded , the daughters of suffolk being declared the next heirs . 2. this was not done by a testament , but by a declaration made in council , all writ with the king 's own hand ; upon which an act of council was also signed by all the board : and then letters patents were passed under the seal conform to it . 3. there was no possibility of forgery here , for it was done too solemnly to admit of that : and here i will publish the discovery that i have made in that matter , since i writ my history . the original paper all writ with k. edward's own hand , and the original act of council , signed by all the council , have come into my hands : and as i kept them long enough by me , to shew them to many persons , so i have thought fit to publish them here , as papers that are extremely curious : and i would gladly do somewhat that may be a better entertainment to the reader , than the constant discovery of a series of errors , which come so thick one upon another , that there is not any one part sound . k. edward's device for the succession . for lack of issue male of my body , to the issue male coming of the issue female , as i have after declared , to the lady francis's heirs males , if she have any ; for lack of such issue before my death , to the l. iane , and her heir's males ; to the l. katherine's heir 's males ; to the l. marie's heir 's males ; to the heirs males of the daughters which she shall have hereafter : then to the l. marget's heir 's males ; for lack of such issue to the heir's males of the lady ianes daughters ; to the heirs males of the l. katherin's daughters , and so forth , till you come to the l. marget's heir 's males . 2. if after my death the heir male be entred into 18. year old , then he to have the whole rule and governance thereof . 3. but if he be under 18. then his mother to be governess till he enter 18. year old ; but to do nothing without the advice and agreement of six , parcel of a council , to be pointed by my last will , to the number of twenty . 4. if the mother dye before the heir enter into 18. the realm to be governed by the council , provided that after he be 14. year , all great matters of importance be opened to him . * 5. if i died without issue , and there were none heir male , then the lady francis to be governess regent ; for lack of her , her eldest daughters , and for lack of them , the l. marget to be governess after , as is aforesaid , till some heir male be born , and then the mother of that child to be governess . 6. and if during the rule of the governess there dye four of the council , then shall she by her letters call an assembly of the council , within one month following , and choose four more , wherein she shall have three voices ; but after her death , the 16. shall choose among themselves till the heir come to 14. year old , and then he by their advise shall choose them . the order of king edward the sixth , and of his privy council , concerning the succession to the crown . edward ; we whose hands are underwritten , having heretofore many times heard the kings majesty , our most gracious soveraign lord's earnest desire and express commandment , touch-the limitation of the succession in the imperial crown of this realm , and others his majesties realms and dominions ; and having seen his majesty's own devise touching the said succession first , wholy written with his most gracious hand , and after copied out in his majesty's presence , by his most high commandment , and confirmed with the subscription of his majesties own hand , and by his highness delivered to certain judges , and other learned men , to be written in full order : do by his majesty's special and absolute commandment eftsoons given us , agree , and by these presents signed with our hands , and sealed with our seales , promise by our oaths and honours to observe ; fully perform , and keep , all and every article , clause , branch and matter , contained in the said writing , delivered to the judges and others , and superscribed with his majesty's hand in six several places , and all such other matter as his majesty by his last will shall appoint , declare or command touching or concerning the limitation of the succession of the said imperial crown . and we do further promise by his majesty's said commandment , never to vary or swerve during our lives , from the said limitation of the succession , but the same shall to the uttermost of our powers defend and maintain . and if any of us or any other shall at any time hereafter ( which god forbid ) vary from this agreement , or any part thereof : we and every of us do assent to take , use , and repute him for a breaker of the common concord , peace and unity of this realm , and to do our uttermost to see him or them so varying or swearving , punished with most sharp punishments according to their deserts . t. cant. t. ely cane winchester . northumberland . i. bedford . h. suffolk . w. north● . f. shrewsbury . f. huntington . pembroke . e. clynton . t. darcy . g. cobham . r. ryche . t. chene . iohn gate . william petre. iohn cheek . w. cecil . edward mountague . iohn baker . edward gryffin . iohn lucas . iohn gosnald . by these evidences it will appear that what faults soever may be charged on the memory of the duke of northumberland , this of forging king edward's testament is none of them . lxi . he says , the d. of northumberland obliged all mary and elisabeth 's friends to abandon them , and made them be kept as close prisoners in hunsden-castle , as if they had been criminals . but these two sisters were never so good friends as to live together . 2. they were both so free with their families , that princess mary was on her way to see king edward , and on the road she met the news of his death . lxii . he says , it was five moneths past from the time of northumberland 's son's marrying l. jean gray , when k. edward died on the sixth of iuly . there was but five weeks past , for they were married in the beginning of iune , but on what day of iune it is not certain , for ought i know . lxiii . he tells us , that northumberland concealed king edwards death as long as he could : and that some days after that , jean gray made a magnificent entry thro london , and then came on the war with queen mary . but this whole business lasted only nine dayes ; from whence it is thought that the english proverb of a nine days wonder , took its beginning . so he ought to manage this time a little better : indeed this phantasm of lady iean gray , as it disappeared soon , so it never had force enough to pretend to any magnificence : two dayes after king edward's death , she was conveyed secretly to the tower of london , out of which she never came ; for after a weeks pageantry of her queenship , she was kept there till her head was cut off . lxiv . mr. varillas , who will always discover the secretest springs of mens thoughts , pretends to tell us , that the ground of the hatred that the nation bore to the duke of northumberland , was his rendring of bulloigne to the french. and here he tells us in his way ( that is , with an equal measure of ignorance and presumption ) the various reflections that the english made on that ●●tter . but as for the rendring of ●●lloigne , it was indeed necessary , since 〈◊〉 forts that covered it , had been ta●●n : and this having fallen out during ●●merset's ministry , the blame of this ●●ss was laid wholly on him . 2. there ●●ere several sessions of parliament af●●r that rendition , which fell out im●ediately upon the duke of somerset's all ; and a new one was called in the ●●d of this reign , yet no complaint ●as ever made in parliament upon ●●at head . 3. the duke of northum●erland was less guilty of it than any of 〈◊〉 ministry ; for when the emperour●●efused ●●efused to assist them , the ministry 〈◊〉 , that a war with france and scot●●nd was too great a load upon them 〈◊〉 a minority , in which their only ●onsiderable ally failed them : so that ●hey resolved to make a peace by the endring of bulloigne : yet tho the duke ●f northumberland saw this could not ●e opposed , he absented himself for ●ome days from council , and so did not ●●gn the peace with the other privy councellors , who signed it , and of which the original order was long in my hands . for the original cou●●cil-book , in which all the most impo●●tant resolutions were signed by t●● whole board , had fallen into priva●● hands , and was presented to me : b●● i delivered it in to the clerks of t●● privy council to be preserved by the● with the care that is due to the mo●● authentical remain of the last ag● 4. but as mr. varillas tells a fa●● ground of the aversion that the e●●glish had to the duke of northumbe●●land , so he did not know the true one tho they are mentioned by all our a●thors . he was excessively haughty , a●●violent ; he was believed to be a man 〈◊〉 no religion : it was generally though that he had destroyed the duke of s●●merset by false witnesses ; he had no● excluded the right heirs of the crow● to set up his own son ; and which w●● beyond all the rest , in the spirits of th● people , it was generally believed th●● king edward was poisoned by his d●●rections : and here are grounds of a general dislike , that were a little bette● founded than that feigned one for th● delivering up of bulloigne , three yea● before : but a man that will needs b● writer of history , in spite of so pro●●nd an ignorance , must ramble about 〈◊〉 conjectures : and if he has as little ●●dgment as sincerity , he must make ●●ch as mr. varillas does . lxv . he tells us , that immediatly ●●n king edward's death , ●orthumberland sent a body 〈◊〉 horse to seise on queen ●ary . but here his memory failed ●n too soon ; for he had but six pa●s before said , that both she and her ●●ster elisabeth were kept close priso●●rs in hunsden : so there was no oc●sion for seising on her person . lxvi . he tells us , that petre , se●●tary to the d. of northum●●rland , who was a catholick , ●●he had pretended to be a cal●●nist , that so he might raise himself , ●as prevailed on by the same ambition , ●●w to betray his master : so he went ●●mself , as soon as king edward ex●●ed , to give queen mary notice of 〈◊〉 design , that was laid against her : ●●d he made such hast that he came to ●●nsden two hours before the body of ●orse : so he being well known to those 〈◊〉 kept her , was admitted to her , and he not only warned her of her dange● but he found a way to convey both 〈◊〉 and himself away . some body in charity to mr. var●●las should have told him , that the● was at present a iesuite , in great cred●● in a certain court of europe , that is 〈◊〉 neally descended from this petre ; yet 〈◊〉 comfort him , tho those of that orde● are not much celebrated for their gre●● readiness to forgive , i am confident 〈◊〉 petre will think him below his wrat 〈◊〉 notwithstanding this injury that he do the memory of his ancestor . i dare n●● say , his grand-father , lest he finds o●● as he did in the case of the l. darn●● that he was his great grand-father . 〈◊〉 will not call this an irreparable inju●● to use mr. varillas's terms in the case king henry the seventh ; for i do n●● think that he is capable of doing 〈◊〉 irreparable injury to any body . but 〈◊〉 return to petre , he had been long s●●cretary of state , both to king her● and king edward , and so was n●● northumberland's secretary . 2. 〈◊〉 was always esteemed a protestant , a●● was a vertuous and sincere man : if was a catholick , he was a very bad on for his family to this day feels what a great estate he made out of the abbey lands . 3. he continued stile with northumberland , and was one of those who signed the letter to queen mary , in the pretended q. iean's name , ordering her to lay down her pretensions . 4. he was removed from his office of secretary , as soon as q. mary came to the crown : and here i lose sight of him , and do not know what became of him afterwards , or when it was that the family was raised to the dignity of being peers of england 5. it was the earl of arundel , that sent queen mary the notice of her brothers death , and of the design then on foot against her ; for she was then within half a days journey of london on her way , to see her brother ; and it seems that northumberland durst not venture on so hardy a thing , as the seising on her , but he intended to make her come , as it were to see her brother , and so to get her to throw herself into his hands . lxvii . he says , northumberland had four things for him ; king edward's testament , the publick treasure , the army , and the fleet : but queen mary went to norfolk , where she knew how much he was hated for his having sold bulloigne to the french. but i have already shewed , that the settlement of the crown was not done by testament , but by letters patents . and as at that time there was no fleet , nor standing army at all : so there was scarce any money in the treasury . 2. the duke of northumberland was indeed much hated in norfolk , but not for the business of bulloigne ; but besides the general considerations , that had rendred him odious to the whole nation ; he had subbued the insurrection of norfolk of the commons against the gentry , and had been very severe in his military executions . 3. q mary did not go to norfolk : she went indeed very near it , but she staied still in suffolk . lxviii . mr. varillas tells us , that the earles of derby , essex and hastings , were not inferiour in any respect , to those who had married the lady jean gray's sisters : so they declared for q. mary , on two conditions , the one was , that she should never marry a stranger : and the other , that she should make no change in matters of religion ; but tho q. mary was absolutely resolved to observe neither of these ; yet since there are few examples of those who would lose a crown rather than not promise the things which they neither can nor will observe , she promised all that was asked of her ; upon which those three earles being perswaded that they had provided sufficiently for calvinism ; took the field with their friends , and having assured all people that they had received a full security for the established religion , they quickly brought together an army of 15000. men . our author is always unhappy , when he comes to particulars : for 1. the earl of derby was a zealous papist and had protested in parliament against all the changes that had been made . 2. he had no hand in the re-establishing of queen mary , for the business was done before there was any occasion of raising the remote counties . 3. there was no earl of essex at this time : for that title was bestowed on none from cromwels fall , till the exaltation of queen elisabeth's favorite to it . 4. there was no earl of hastings : the earl of huntingtons son carries the title of lord hastings : and our author had bestowed on him l. gray's sister . 5. the earl of sussex was the person that did the greatest service of all to the queen , who is not so much as named by mr. varillas . 6. it was the people of suffolk and norfolk , that asked those assurances of the queen in the matters of religion ; but it does not appear that any of the nobility made any such demands . 7. nor is there any mention made of their asking any assurances of her , that she should not marry a stranger . 8. the care , that our author uses here , in setting forth queen mary's dissimulation , and her granting of promises , that she never intended to observe , and the general reflection that upon that he makes on crowned heads ; looks as if he had a mind to cover the infamy of some late violations of promises and oaths , by shewing that this has been the way of crowned heads at all times : and perhaps this is to be a part of the panegyrick ; but since mr. varillas had taxed the zealous catholicks of england , as imprudent , for laying down arms upon king henry's word , why might not he have put the same censure here , on those zealous protestants , who took up arms upon queen mary's word ; since as he sets out the matter , they had less reason to trust her , than the other rebels had to trust her father ? lxix . he tells us , that northumberland marched against her with some old troops , that he had ready : fancying that she was but 15000. strong ; but he found she was 30000. strong : two parts of three of his army refused to fight , and some went over to the queen with flying colours : so he was forced to return to london , reckoning that he was still master of the city , and the fleet : but at his return he found the gates shut upon him ; and that the city had declared against him , whose example was followed by the fleet. so seeing all was lost , he rendred himself upon discretion , ten dayes after he had crowned jean of suffolk . this section is as exactly writ as the former ; for 1. northumberland had no old troops , and he marched from london with 2000. horse , and 6000. foot , such as could be brought together of the sudden . 2. iean gray was never crowned : she was only proclaimed queen . 3. northumberland never marched back to london , but seeing the queen's forces encrease , and that none came in to him , he came into cambridge , and proclaimed queen mary . 4. it was not so much the city of london , as the whole privy council that declared for queen mary . 5. there was no fleet then to change sides : for mr. varillas knowing nothing of the past age , and only hearing that at present the english fleet is the greatest in the world , he has this ever in his head , and fancies that it was so at all times . 6. nothumberland did not render himself , but was apprehended as a criminal by the earl of arundel , who was sent to seise on him . lxx . he tells us , that northumberland was presently put in irons ; but he retained so great a presence of spirit , when he came to be examined before the council , that mr. varillas thought fit to set this out with all the pomp that his sublime could furnish : he puts harangues in his mouth , by which he confounded the privy councillours , among whom he names the earl of chieresberi : but his crimes being so notorious , he with his four sons were condemned to dye as traitors . the queen pardoned three , but was inexorable to the fourth : and when northumberland saw there was no hope of life , he declared that he had been only a calvinist out of interest ; and expressed a great detestation of that religion , and of th● preachers of it : and suffered with a constancy that was admired by 〈◊〉 that saw it : those who suffered with him imitating his conversion ; this had a great effect on peoples spirits . 1. men of the duke of northumberlands quality , are never put in irons in england . 2. he shewed so little courage , that he threw himself at the earl of arundel's feet abjectly to beg his favour . 3. our author confounds his being brought to his tryal , before a lord steward , and the peers of england , with an examination before the council : and his making the council condemn him , shews that he does not know the commonest points of form in the government of england . 4. all this constancy and arguing that he puts in northumberlands mouth , is taken from two points in law that he proposed to the peers , that were his judges : the one was , whether a man acting by order of council , and by warrants under the great seal , could be esteemed a criminal : the other was , whether one that had acted so , could be judged by peers , that had given him those orders , and that were as guilty as himself . 5. tho these were points in law that 〈◊〉 have some colour in them , yet they were far from confounding any : for a council or a great seal flowing from an vsurper , is nothing : so this authority could not justify him : and as for those who were as guilty as himself , and yet were now his iudges ; they were not convicted of the guilt : and no peer can be ●et a●ide in a tryal , upon general surmises , how true soever they may be . 6. i confess it was some time , before i could find out who this earl of chieresberi was . at last i saw it must be shrewsbury , who should have been a little better known to mr. varillus : unless he has read the french story as carelesly as he has done the english ; for the illustrious ancestors of that family left such marks of their valour behind them in france , that one should think that talbot , earl of shrewsbury , should be the family of all england , in which a french writer should be the least apt to mistake . and this confirms me in my opinion , that mr. varillas has never read history . 7. there were none of northumberlands sons tryed at that time , but his eldest son the earl of warwick : for he had been called by writ to the house of lords , and so was to be tried as a peer : but the rest were commoners ; and were tryed some moneths after this . 8. he makes queen mary less merciful than she was : for it was believed she would have pardoned both iean of suffolk and her husband ; if upon the rebellion that was raised six moneths after this , it had not been then thought necessary to take to severer councils . 9. it was believed at that time , that northumberland declared himself a roman catholick , in hope to save his life by the means . 10. his constancy was not very extraordinary ; for there passed some severe expostulations between sr. iohn gates and him : who as they had been complices in the rebellion , so now being brought to suffer together , they died reproaching one another . 11. it does not appear , that any other of those who suffered , changed their religion : nor 12. is it likely that such a declaration of men , who were so odious to the nation , and who in the making of it , did likewise shew that they had made a small account of religion , could have any great effect on those who saw it . lxxi . mr. varillas will never give over his bold quotations ; for here he tells us , that charles the fifth advised queen mary , not to proceed so hastily in the change of religion ; and that he believed she would find before , long , that it would not be safe to her , to break her promise . and to confirm this , he cites on the margin , charles the fifths letters to q. mary . ● this would make one that does not know the man , fancy that there was some register or collection of those letters , which he had seen ; i have indeed seen those letters ; for the originals of them are extant ; and i shewed them once to the spanish ambassadour at london , don pedro de ronquillas , who did me the honour to desire me to accompany him to the cotton library , where i not only shewed him these letters , but as many of the other original papers , out of which i had drawn my history , as could be examined at one time : but for charles the fifths letters , they are so little legible , and the queen of hungary's hand is so little better than his , that i could not copy them out , nor print them : some little hints i took from them , but that was all . 2. it seems mr. varillas was not much concerned in queen mary's breaking her word ; for in those letters , that he makes up for charles , all that he makes him set before her , is the danger of it , and that she could not do it long safe ( impunement ) if she had a vast army in any strong places , a great fleet , and a huge revenue , then the breaking of her word would have troubled mr. varillas so little , that it would not have hindred him from making her panegyrick : tho the violation of her faith was so much the more scandalous , that those to whom she gave it , had setled her upon her throne ; and perhaps he will find somewhat parallel to this , to put in his panegyrick . lxxii . he goes on with his romance , and tells us , that queen mary writ back to the emperour a more heroical answer than can be found among all the letters of the crowned heads of the last age : she told him what wonders of providence she had hitherto met with , and that therefore she was more bound than any other not to be unthankful : and to conclude with a soft period , she said , she would be guilty of as many crimes ●s she lived minutes without acquiting her self of her duty . these effects followed on those words : she repealed by authentical acts , all that had been done by her father or her brother , to the prejudice of the catholick religion : and tho she had reason to fear the malecontents of some , who having lived long without religion , would not willingly receive again that yoke which they had thrown off , yet she reduced them all with more haughtiness , than the most esteemed and the most absolute prince that ever reigned in england : she dismissed the armed companies that were about her ; she renounced the title of head of the church of england , and re-established the exercise of the catholick religion every where . and it is to be considered , that all this was done in the year 1553. and before haviets rebellion . mr. varillas would make his reader believe , that queen mary was a heroine indeed ; and he carries the character as high as he can , that so when he comes to write his panegyrick , all the praises he has bestowed on her , may give so much the more lustre to his monarch , who after all is to be preferred to her : for tho she excelled all the crowned heads of the last age , yet she must come humbly & lay down all her glory to enrich the panegyrik of one of the princes of the present . 2. mr. varillas would make us believe , that he saw both her letters , and the letters of all the other crowned heads of the last age ; & i believe both is alike true . 3. those soft and melting periods that he gives us out of her letter , have a sort of an affected eloquence in them , that may pass from a man like mr. varillas ; but they have not that native beauty and greatness , that is the stile of those that are born to command . 4. if our author had examined queen mary's letters , he would have found some of them of a far different strain : he would have found her acknowledg king henry's supremacy ; renounce the popes authority ; confess that her mothers marriage was by the law of god and man incestuous , and unlawful : he would have found her express her sorrow for her former stubbornness , and disobedience to her father's most just and vertuous laws ; and put her soul in his hands ; vowing never to vary from his orders ; and that her conscience should be always directed by him : and when her opinion was asked of pilgrimages , purgatory , and relicks , he would have found her declare , that in all these things she had no opinion at all , but such as she should receive from the king ; who had her whole heart in his keeping , and might imprint upon it , in these and all other matters , whatever his inestimable vertue , high wisdom , and excellent learning should think convenient for her . these were her strains , while she was yet a subject , and under the yoke of a father : and of these the originals are yet extant . 4. all the change that she made the first year of her reign , was to abolish what her brother had done , and to bring things back to the state in which her father had left them : upon which cardinal pool writ her a letter full of severe expostulations ; for he said , this was to establish schism by a law. 5. our autho● represents all these changes as made of the sudden , before she dismissed the people that came up with her to london , and as if she had done all by her own authority , whereas it was the work of three parliaments one after another . 6. the queen kept still her title of supream head of the church , above a year after this , and in two parliaments that she called , she carried that among her other titles , and in the vertue of it turned out bishops , and licensed preachers , besides a great many other exercises of her supremacy : so far was she from laying it aside at first . lxxiii . mr. varillas , after he had diversified his romance with the intermixture of other affairs , returns back to england , and lets us see how little the queen was inclined to keep the promises that she had made her subjects : for the day after her coronation , it appeared to the curious , that she had made some infractions in her promises touching religion ; tho she had not yet been tempted to break the other . she ballanced indeed whether she should marry one of her own subjects or not . card. pool and courtney , earl of devonshire , were the only two that were left of the blood royal. pool had many great qualities , which are set out as romances paint their hero's , as well as courtney's : who was descended by his mother from the house of york : he was beautiful , had a good meen , and was so well bred , that at two and twenty , he was the most accomplished cavalier of great brittain . he spake the chief languages of europe , and was very learned . his mother had been queen mary's friend , that never left her day nor night : and some have said , that the queen once promised to her , that she would marry her son. but he adds , that the queen had owned her design for pool to commendon : yet after all , pool was near sixty , and courtney was very loose : so this disposed her to the match with the prince of spain , which charles the fifth , who had projected the conquest of france , desired extreamly , in order to the accomplishing of that design . a little after this , he tells us , that both pool and courtney were equally near the crown : pool was the grand-child of a sister of henry the sevenths , and so he was of the house of lancaster , but courtney was the grand-child of edward the fourth . and now here are as any faults as could be well laid together in so few words : 1. the queen was not crowned till the tenth of october , and long before that time not only the curious , but men as ignorant as mr. varillas , saw how little regard she had to her promise for preserving the established religion : most of the bishops were by that time clapt up in the tower , all preaching was prohibited , except by those who had the queen's licences ; and such as came to put her in mind of her promises , were punished as insolent persons . 2. he says , she had not been yet tempted in the point of marrying a stranger : yet in his preface he had set her forth as entertaining commendon , with her design for marrying the prince of spain , and he left her in august . 3. there were several others of the royal family , and in the same degree with cardinal pool , whose posterities are yet remaining : these were the earl of huntington's family , and that of the baringtones in essex . 4. cardinal pool , who died five year after this , was but 59. when he died . 5. courtney's mother was not of the house of york , but his grandmother , who was edward the fourth's daughter . a mother for a grandmother is as great a fault as a grandmother for a great-grandmother , with which he reproaches me so severely in his answer to my reflections . 6. courtney was so far from having any advantages of breeding , that he had been kept a prisoner thirteen years in the tower of london , ever since his father was attainted . 7. his mother was likewise all that while a prisoner , and so had not those opportunities of being with the queen . 8. cardinal pool was of the house of york , his mother being daughter to the duke of clarence , that was edward the fourths brother . 9. courtney was so far from being vicious and lewd , that he was rather too sullen , which was imputed to his imprisonment in his youth , that had made him melancholy and studious . 10. the pretence of a promise that queen mary gave to courtney's mother , to marry her son , is by all other authors put upon cardinal pool : but i believe both are alike true . 11. courtney was not grand-child , but great-grandchild to edward the fourth . 12. it was believed at that time , that the queen had really such inclinations to courtney , that if he had not by a strange coldness neglected her , applying himself more to her sister elisabeth , she would have married him : and that her hatred of her sister , was encreased when she saw to which of the two courtney gave the preference . 13. the queen had only insinuated to commendon her inclinations for card ▪ pool . lxxiv . mr. varillas tells us of one sr. thomas haviet , a zealous calvinist , one of a great family , and highly esteemed , both by the nobility and the people ( which he sets out in his romantical way very elegantly as he thinks , no doubt ) and in a word , one that had all the qualities necessary for the head of a party , except that of being of the blood royal. this haviet then resolved to hinder the match with spain , and in order to the doing of it , he found it necessary to set up the princess elisabeth : and courtney being set on by rage and iealousy , since he saw the queen disappointed him , and was treating for the spanish match , joined likewise into haviets conspiracy . most men besides our author know the names of those of whom they undertake to write ; but who would think that this haviet , that has so large a part of this story assigned him , was no other then sr. thomas wiat , that as is pretended , owned that he had corrupted anne bullen : and yet now he is made a rebel to advance the daughter , who certainly could never forgive so publick an injury as he had done her mother , if our author 's former story of him is true . perhaps mr. varillas perceived this : and therefore resolved to give him here a new name ; for tho all the printed histories make him sr. thomas wiat ; yet he will make him haviet , tho this name is not so much as known in england . but haviet may pass for wiat as well as millethon for maidston , and camdavart for southwark , and quincethon for kingston . it is true , there is some sort of affinity between millethon and maidston ; for they begin and end with a letter ; and even that is much for mr. varillas . quincethon and kingston are more remote , yet an ill pronounciation , might make a man mistake the one for the other ; for i have often taken notice of this , that mr. varillas has heard a great deal , but has read very little history : yet how camdavart could pass for southwark , is that which i cannot comprehend : and as little how haviet was put for wiat , if this last was not an artifice of mr. varillas's . but instead of following mr. varillas thro all his impertinences , i fancy it will please my reader better , if i mention some particulars of that business , which i drew from a relation of the matter writ by sr. thomas wiat's own son , of which i give an account in my reply to mr. varillas . sir thomas wiat , tho the duke of northumberland's kinsman , would not join with him in the business of l. iean gray : but proclaimed queen mary at maidston , before he knew that any others had done it : yet he did not run to her for thanks , as many others did : but she was so sensible of this service , that she sent the earl of arundel with her thanks to him , to which he appealed in his trial. but he quickly saw how matters were like to go , so he had obtained a pass to go beyond sea : which he had put in execution , if his wife 's being big with child , had not stayed him till she was brought to bed . he had observed so much of the temper of the spanish ministers , when he was ambassador in charles the fifths court , that his love to his countrey made him extream apprehensive of the misery of the nation , if it should fall under that yoke . he never so much as pretended that religion was his motive : and papists as well as protestants joined with him : and if he had designed any mischief to the queen , it was in his power to have executed it ; for when he passed by charingcross , whitehal was ill defended : and many of the earl of pembrokes men came over to him : but he marcht on to the city of london , having no other intentions but to concur with them in opposing the match : and the queen her self was so fully assured that he designed no hurt to her , that she was resolved to pardon him , if a message had not come from brussels , upon which his head was cut off . he never accused the queen's sister , tho he was once so entangled by questions , that were put to him , that he answered somewhat that reflected on the earl of devonshire , for which he afterwards beg'd his pardon : and to shew that he had alwayes vindicated queen elisabeth , he not only did it in very plain words on the scaffold , but said likewise , that she was not privy to his matters , as he had delivered in his declaration made before the privy council . this account of that matters , as it supplys some defects that are in my history , so it shews that mr. varillas had told both the name of the person , and the history it self , alike true . lxxv . he tells us , that this haviet having made himself sure of the town of millethon , put off the mask : and came up to rochester , at the head of 1200. horse and 8000. foot : and was received into it the 22. of ianuary , 1554. he intended to go on in great marches to london , but all this did not disorder the queen , who put the troops that she had about her , under the command of the duke of norfolk , and of his brother , that was admiral of england : and ordered them to march in the very minute in which she received the news of the insurrection , tho it was just at midnight on the 22. of ianuary . the two brothers marched , but four of their companies revolting , and the rest being disheartned by that , the brothers found it convenient to return back to london : where the queen left nothing undone , that was necessary to animate or encrease her army : yet she fearing lest the citizens of london should open to haviet the rochester port , sent some to treat with him , and to assure him , that if the spanish match displeased the english , she would never think on it any more ▪ but he asked such extravagant high terms , that all treaty was broke off . but 1. this haviet when he was strongest , and advanced to mr. varillas's camdavart , was but 4000. strong in all : but mr. varillas is generous , and would bestow a good army on him . 2. those who have been in maidston , will not find it a great matter to be sure of such a place . 3. mr. varillas comes pretty near ▪ the true date here , but yet does not hit it ; for it was on the 25. of ianuary , and not on the 22. that wyat came to rochester . 4. his ignorance of the map of england must be suteable to the rest of his learning ; since it is but a very short day's journey from rochester to london : and even his hearsay , which next to florimond is his chief garand , might have helped him here : since this is the part of the whole road of england , that is best known to strangers . 5. notwithstanding all the expedition that he makes the queen use , some dayes past before she sent out any troops , and so the midnight march is spoiled , which no doubt he thought a beautiful stroke , and for which he has somewhat in parallel , perhaps to enrich the panegyrick . 6. the queen had no troops about her , and all she could get together , was two troops of horse , and six companys of foot , with which the city of london furnished her : so she sent first a herald to rochester , to try if wiat ( alias haviet ) could be persuaded to return to his duty . 7. the duke of norfolk's brother was never admiral of england , nor did he go along with him at this time . 8. the queen made no such abject propositions to wiat as he pretends ; for she only sent some to see what it was that he demanded , and when he proposed very high terms , they gave over all treaty with him : here the heroine sinks a little , perhaps this must be to hide some feeble stroak that must appear in the panegyrick . 9. the queen went indeed into london , and gave the citizens very tender assurances of the love she bare to her people , and that she did nothing in the treaty for the spanish match , but by the advice of her whole council ; but she never said that she would not think on it any more . 10. for his rochester port to the city of london , he will find it in the same map , in which the suburb at the end of the bridg , on the other side of the river , is called camdavart : for he has given us all these marks of it , and perhaps he found it so in some of those manuscripts , that were communicated to him , under the confidences of friendship : and i dare answer for him , that he will keep this secret most religiously . lxxvi . he goes on , and says , that haviet stopt a little ; either to see what answer the queen would send to his propositions : or perhaps it was because his troops were weary with a long march : in the mean while the queen put matters in a most wonderful order : she sent away the spanish ambassadours , who were an eye-sore to her people : she called the nobility and chief citizens about her , and promised to them in a most pathetical harangue , to call a parliament , and not to take a husband but by its advice ; by this she prevailed so far that the citizens were contented to let all the locks of the city gates be changed , and to deliver the keys to the duke of norfolk , which was the critical thing that saved all ; so small a matter serves to preserve or to overturn monarchies , where heresy has once got in . so the queen having by the efficacy of her harangue , gained many brave men to come to encrease her troops , she placed some on the banks of the river to hinder the rebels , who were now at camdavart , from passing : and she drew up the rest at james's , which was the place where probably they would endeavour to enter the city : but haviet finding the bridg at camdavart was cut by the duke of norfolk , left his foot that were heavily armed , and marched with his light horse to quincethan , where he passed the river , having defeated 500. men that the q. had sent thither to dispute the passage . every tittle here is fiction , and the fiction is very ill contrived . 1. wiat could expect no answer from the queen to his extravagant demands ; for those whom she had sent to him , broke with him in very ill terms . 2. that treaty was at deptford , and instead of a long march from that to his camdavart , it is but a short walk of an hour or two at most . 3. the spanish ambassadours were never sent away ; here again the heroine sinks . 4. she made no promise to call a parliament : but said only , that she would do nothing but by the advice of her council . 5. it seems there is some mystery in this , that mr. varillas makes the queen as ready at all times to make promises , as she was resolved to break them : now since mr. varillas writes history , not as he finds it , but as he thinks fit to dress it , there is some reason to believe , that in his representing queen mary so little a slave to her word , he had still his panegyrick in his eye . 5. if one apprehended any had pick-locks to his house , the changing of locks , and the looking after the keys , were a very proper method ; but this is i believe the first time , that ever the security of a great city was thought to turn upon such a matter : and mr. varillas may pretend to the monopoly of this secret in fo●tification , since it is most certainly his own invention . 7. if mr. varillas is so ignorant as not to know that gunpowder was in use at that time , yet hatchets and hammers were always in use , and these are good enough against gates and locks . 8. the queen's troops could not well stand over against his camdavart , to hinder haviets passage ; unless they stood to the midle in water : for there is no key there , the buildings being continued to the rivers side . 9. the bridg of london was not cut , but only defended . 10. haviet had no foot heavily armed , but a company of countrey people brought together , and he marched with them all . 11. as our author describes s. iames's , it seems he fancies there is another bridg upon the thames there : but since haviet had not boats enough for passing , he could not cross the river lower than kingston bridg ; for the thames is not fordable in winter below that . 12 ▪ kingston bridg was indeed cut ; but that was all the opposition that he met there : yet as our author describes it , it does not seem that he knew there was a bridg there ; for he speaks only of crossing the river . lxxvii . but now to conclude the romance , he tells us , that haviet broke thro the queen's army at st. james's , and advanced to the gate of the city ; but here , the new locks and keys did mighty service : for the gates could not be opened , so he was forced to retire , but even that was no more possible for him to do , since the queens troops were in too good a● order , and she her self appeared at the head of them , and did so wonderfully animate them , that in the end poor haviet was taken , and 200 ▪ more with him , who were all led along with him to the execution . 1. there was no resistance made to wiat at all ; for he marcht straight on to the gates of the city . 2. certainly by mr. varillas's story he was the modestest rebel that ever was , who came and knockt at the gates , and then went away , because the d. of norfolk had the keys . 3. if the queen's troops had been in such order , one would think they would not have trusted so much to their locks and keys , as to have suffered wiat to go on to the city gates . 4. our author is unhappy in every thing : for he did not know that which was set out as the most extraordinary part of the queen's behaviour ; who did not come out and ride at the head of her troops , as he fancies ; but it being ashwednesday morning , she went on with the devotions of the day , and continued all the morning at prayers . mr. varillas says nothing of this , for one or two reasons , either because he knew it not , or because he had not found out what was fit to be set against this in his panegyrick . 5. it was perhaps upon some other part of the same piece , that he was thinking , when he makes 200. to be taken with wiat , and all to be carried to accompany him to his execution . for there were fifty eight persons that were attainted for the rebellion ; but there was only a small number even of those , that were pickt out to be made examples : many of those that were condemned , being reserved to be instances of the queen's mercy : and she was so far from delighting in scenes of blood , that her clemency on this occasion was much magnified . to make every one of the prisoners dye , comes nearer the severity of some later practices , than the mildnesses of that princesses reign , who except in the matters of religion , gave no cause to complain of the rigor of her proceedings : she had not chief iustices that hanged up rebels by hundreds , or that condemned them so suddenly , that they were to be led out immediatly to execution ; such things were not then known in england : but she on the contrary , when 600. prisoners were taken , was contented with their coming to beg their pardons with halters about their necks , and gave them all their lives . her council was wise : she designed to change the religion , and therefore she thought the best way to recommend her own , was to shew the greatest readiness to forgive the most dangerous rebellion that perhaps ever princess went through . the hanging up of rebels by hundreds , she knew well , would raise in the minds of her people a horror against her and her ministry , and against her religion ; as if they had delighted in blood. since cruelty in all persons has somewhat that is base as well as black . she was merciful in her own nature , and the councils of that religion were at that time better laid , than to be capable of such errors . and now i have done with mr. varillas's history , and i fancy the world will have done with it likewise very soon . i dare answer so far for the tast and the iudgment of the english nation , as to depend upon it , that none of his works will be any more asked after there . i have kept my self as much within the temper of stile , that i thought became me , as was possible . i confess , it raises nature somewhat , to see a man of his age , and that had , by i know not what chance , gained some reputation in the world , imploy his pen with so much malice to defame our nation , and our religion : but by a curse peculiar to himself , his ignorance is such an antidote to all the ill effects of his malice , that his writings can do no hurt , but to himself , and to his printers . i thought a severe correction was necessary , when he had now for a second time shewed that he was incurable : and that the discipline that i had formerly given him , had not brought him to a sounder mind . and therefore if this goes a little deeper , it was the inveteracy of the evil , that forced me to it . let men write truth as to matters of fact , let them write it decently , and let them set themselves against my history as much as they will , i will answer them with all the softness and decency , that becomes a man and a christian : and i will either confess my mistakes , if i am convinced of them , or discover theirs with that gravity of stile , that is necessary : for to handle a man without mercy , tho not without iustice , ( which was the censure that an eminent person passed upon my former reflections on mr. varillas ) is a thing so contrary to my nature , that it must be a very extraordinary provocation that can carry me to it . and i dare appeal to all men , even to those of the roman persuasion , if the venom and folly that is spread over mr. varillas's second volum , does not justify all that scorn with which i treat him . it must be confessed to be somewhat extraordinary , that in an age , such as ours is , and in a city such as paris is , a man should undertake to bring in the history of a nation , into his work , concerning which he has so little information , as neither to know the map , nor the names , the laws , nor the government , nor the most publick transactions that are to be found even in the worst and cheapest books ; and yet the most amasing part of all is , to see this man write with such an air of assurance , and to pretend to discover the profoundest secrets . he that would desire to see very ill sights , if they are but extraordinary , would he tempted to go and look upon mr. varillas , and examin his meen and his phisiognomy a little ; for certainly he is a man of the most singular composition , that the present age , or for ought i know , that any other has ever produced . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a30331-e350 fx mss. d. petyt . lib. 20. p. 58. p. 59. p. 60. ibid. p. 61. ibid. ibid. p. 63. ibid. queens ibid. and p. 64 , 65 , 66. bullar . rom. tom. 2. p. 704. p. 67. answer to me . p. 305. p. 72. p. 73. ibid. p. 149. lib. 17. p. 76. ibid. lib. 9. see my reflect . p. 103. numb . 38. p. 152 , 153. p. 154. * sciatis n●s , deliberate certa scientia , & mero motu nostris , ex quibusdam causis justis & rationabilibus , nos , animos & conscientias nostras , specialiter moventibus , ultro & sponte , dedisse & concessisse domino regi , &c. p. 156. p. 83. p. 160. p. 164. p. 166. ibid. p. 166. p. 168. p. 169. p. 172. p. 176. p. 177. p. 200. p. 202. p. 203. p. 207. p. 293. p. 62. p. 63. ibid. p. 61 p. 63. p. 64. p. 65. p. 67. p. 68. p. 69. p. 77. p. 96. ibid. p. 97. p. 98. ibid p. 100 , 101 , 102. the 20th. day of march 1550. p. 103. p. 122. p. 125. p. 129. p. 131. p. 133. p. 298. p. 300. p. 301. p. 302. p. 310. ibid. * these two last paragraphs and what is printed in a different character , are dasht out , yet so as to be legible . ex m. s. d. g. petyt . p. 312. p. 313. p. 314. p. 315. p. 318. ibid. p. 320. p. 321. p. 322. ibid. p. 328. ibid. p. 352. p. 361. p. 359. p. 362. p. 366. p. 367. p. 362. p. 365. p. 367. a defense of the reflections on the ninth book of the first volum [sic] of mr. varillas's history of heresies being a reply to his answer / by g. burnet ... burnet, gilbert, 1643-1715. 1687 approx. 186 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 81 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a30334 wing b5774 estc r8180 12251945 ocm 12251945 57150 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a30334) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 57150) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 910:5) a defense of the reflections on the ninth book of the first volum [sic] of mr. varillas's history of heresies being a reply to his answer / by g. burnet ... burnet, gilbert, 1643-1715. [127], 144 p. printed for j.s., amsterdam : 1687. reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. advertisement: p. [3] errata: p. 144. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng varillas, -monsieur -(antoine), 1624-1696. -histoire de l'hérésie. reformation -england. 2003-10 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-11 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-12 john latta sampled and proofread 2003-12 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a defence of the reflections on the ninth book of the first volum of mr. varillas's history of heresies . being a reply to his answer . by g. burnet , d.d. amsterdam , printed for j. s. 1687. the author's advertisement . i do not think it necessary to write any thing in the way of preface to so short a book ; but since there appeared a long preface before the french translation of my reflections , to which mr. varillas has made some sort of answer . the same worthy person , having given himself the trouble to translate likewise my reply thought it necessary to say somewhat in defence of his former preface : i have translated that into english , since it gives a further discovery of mr. varillas's sincerity . the translator's preface , put in english. i had accused mr. varillas in the preface which i had set before dr. burnet's reflections , that he had in his history of heresies contradicted several things which he had affirmed some years before that , in his history of wickliaffianism : for tho the two first books of the former , are indeed the same work with the latter , as to the main parts of them ; yet several considerable alterations were observed to be between them : many things being left out in the history of heresies , which were in that of wickliffianism . to all this mr. varillas answers , in a few words ; and says , 1. that the history of wickliffianism was printed without his knowledg . 2. that his name was not prefixed to it . 3. that tho it contained indeed several things that were taken from him , yet it contained others that were none of his . 4. that he not only never owned that book for his , but that he moved to have it suppressed : and that at his instance an order of council was granted , for suppressing it , and for fining the printer in 600. livres : from all which he concludes , that he is not at all accountable for any thing that is in that book : and that no inferences ought to be drawn from it to his prejudice . it is true , that it cannot be proved that mr. varillas sold the copy to certe , the merchant of lions : but it is certain , that he pay'd dear for it ; and that the copy that was sold him , was very clean writ ; and that there were some marginal notes writ upon it , by another hand , tho these were not indeed of great consequence : the stationer was also so much scandalised , when he saw , that iohn hus was represented so advantagiously , and that the council of constance was so ill spoke of , that he intended to have altered the copy a little ; but in that he was not left to his liberty . the book was printed , and sold publickly , both at lions and grenoble , for some considerable time : and it passed generally for mr. varillas's book , both among the roman catholicks , and the protestants : the more moderate of the roman catholicks , recommended the book to the protestants , as an evidence to convince them , that there were writers in their church , that even in matters of consequence , durst say the truth very boldly . nor was it then so much as pretended by any person whatsoever , that there were any passages foisted in , which were not of the authors writing . the book was not only looked on as writ by mr. varillas , in the remoter provinces , but even in paris it self it past for his : and this report went so current , that mr. la rogue spoke of it in his iournal last year , 10 as a thing of which no doubt had been made : for he tells us , that mr. varillas begins his two first books with the history of wickliff , of john hus , and jerome of prague , which had already appeared in several impressions , under the title of the history of wickliffianism . so that it is certain , that the order of council which mr. varillas procured against the printer of lions , for suppressing that book , made no great noise at paris , otherwise the author of the iournal would have heard of it . the preface that was set before the edition at lions , is indeed writ by one , who says , that the author would not give his consent to the printing of the book : and for that reason , he does not set his name before it : but he does not say a word of any additions that are made to it ; tho he shews himself to be both so zealous for his religion , and so full of esteem for mr. varillas , that it is not probable that he would have suffered any additions to be made , especially such as those that were marked in the former preface . on the contrary , tho he says , he will not answer , but that there may be some faults in the printing , yet he affirms , that none will be found that contradict the truth of the history . i will not be so malicious , as to say , that it is probable this preface was of mr. varillas's own composing ; since it is not likely that there are many besides himself that think so well of him , as the writer of that preface does : and the artifice of printing books , by the authors themselves , and yet in the name of another , as if their consent was not obtained , is so common , that mr. varillas may think , that he escapes well , if he is not charged with fouler and more inexcusable impostures than this is . but it is certain , that all those additions , which mr. varillas does now reject , and writ in the same stile with the rest of the work , and no man that is acquainted with his way of writing , will think , that if he had intended to have said those things , which he now disowns , he would have expressed himself in other terms . and besides all this , he cannot think it is enough to say , that there are some things in the history of wickliffianism , that are taken out of his book ; since the whole body of the work is word for word the same , excepting those alterations : so that if he would express himself with any sort of sincerity , he ought to have said , that these two books weere indeed his . but since he does not think fit to own those passages , that are now struck out , he ought only to have added , that some additions were put into the former editions without his knowledge ; instead of setting this matter down so indefinitly as he has done , by which he pretends to cover himself , and to disavow whatsoever passages are abjected to him , as he shall think it convenient for him to do . but it is now a little too late , for mr. varillas to make use of this excuse : and let him say what he will , he must at least justify himself for a●l that is in his history of heresies . an ingenious author has lately shewed him , that he has now rendred himself accountable for the former book , even with all the faults that were in it . let him defend himself as he can : but let him not fancy that he will escape a second time , by casting the blame of the faults that are now in this edition , as well as they were in the former , over on the printers or book-sellers . as for the order of council , it is so far from proving , that the history of wickliaffianism was none of his , as mr. varillas pretends , that it proves the contrary very clearly ; for otherwise how could he have obtained it , but by affirming that is was a book of his , and that a copy of it was stollen from him . on what other ground could the merchant of lions have been fined : for he had obtained the licence for printing it , both of the kings advocat and his attorney , according to the custom , which is printed at the end of the preface , signed by them both : and it is certain , that such a licence as this , was sufficient to secure the stationer against all prosecution at the kings sute : nor could mr. varillas found his complaint upon any other ground , but this , that he was the author of the book ; since he could not prosecute the stationer for printing another mans book . there is another reason which mr. varillas will not easily answer , that shews him to be the author of all those retracted passages ; which is , that it is well known , that no man in france could be inclined , from any consideration of interest , to magnify iohn hus , or to decry the council of constance : on the contrary , this would have been of very ill consequence to them , and might have brought them into great trouble : so that men will be inclined rather to think , that at first mr. varillas writ his own true sentiments touching iohn hus and that council , which afterwards he thought fit to suppress , when he saw how much prejudice this might bring him : a man is easily believed when he writes against his interest , but if it appears , that a man has either a design to raise himself , or at least to preserve himself , the world is too ill-natured , not to suspect all that he can say , let him use what terms soever he will , when it once appears that these are his motives : especially if there is any other occasion given to suspect his sincerity : and in a word , all his complaints of the printer of lions , and even the order of council and fine , will pass with jealous people , but as a collusion , so that after all , i do very much apprehend , that he greatest part of his readers , will still believe him to be accountable for those suppressed passages , whether he will or not ; chiefly when they consider , that there was an effectual means , by which mr. varillas might have cleared himself of those imputations , of which he has not made any use : and that was , the refuting by good evidences all those additions , that were in the edition of lions ; and the disproving them by solid reasons . for it is not enough barely to affirm the contrary , especially in this case , in which it cannot be denied , but that there are still specious enough reasons , to induce us to believe them , not withstanding his bare denial . a defence of the reflections on the nin'th book of mr. varillas's history of heresies ; being a reply to his answer . mr. varillas has given me in his title-page all possible grounds to expect foul dealing from him ; for tho the titles of books are too publick to be falsified ; yet he that will be thought an original in so many other things , it seems resolved to begin with one that is a little extraordinary ; for common impostures are below him . i had entitled my book , reflections on his history of heresies , and more particularly on his ninth book , and he gives it a new title , as if it had been a critick on the two first tomes of his history of the revolutions that have hapned in europe in the matters of religion : this was not a failure of memory , but a studied imposture : for he represents my design as if it had been against his whole work , and upon that he charges me for having singled out only some particulars , of which he mentions a few : and adds , that tho all these were errors , his first ten books would deserve still to be believed , since his mistakes were only matters of small consequence , and in this there was nothing but that to which any man was subject . but when i undertook only to examin his ninth book , if i have discovered , that all that relates to england is a contexture of falsehoods , then i am sure i have quite overthrown one of his ten books ; and by overthrowing that , i have very much shaken the credit of all the other nine : since the faults that i charge on him , are not only some small mistakes , but a series of impostures : and the greatest of all is , that he pretends to cite vouchers which are not in being . i will not say that his errors are more than what any man is subject to : but i do not know any man that has ever committed so many : mr. varillas charges me for writing against him in so barbarous a manner , keeping none of the rules of decency : and to let the world see how little he knows the things which he cites , he says , that the two most passionate criticks of any age , scaliger and schoppius , observed these with great exactness ; but for him , he is resolved to play the part of a christian , and so he will only answer the things in which truth is concerned , without regarding those that relate to himself . i kept all the measures that i thought became a christian , with relation to his person : nor have i said one word of him , but as he is a writer . i have not sent to paris , to have a series of his life transmitted to me ; on the contrary , when some here had offered me , while i writ my reflections , some particulars that were to his prejudice , i would not hearken to them ; for i said , i would only examin mr. varillas as he was an author , but not as he was a man or a christian . i confess , the confidence with which he asserts so many impostures , gave me a just indignation against him , so that i resolved to ruin his credit as he was an historian , because i saw he deserved it so very ill , and made so bad a use of it : but if he expects , that i measure his being a christian by this answer , i will have as bad an opinion of him that way , as i have of him in the quality of an historian . he says , i have cut off and supprest , and changed his words , that so i might represent them as i thought fit : but in that i appeal to the reader . i did not think fit to reprint all he had writ , nor will i now reprint his answer , as he has done my reflections . i have indeed desired my printer to reprint it by it self , if he finds his account in it : and i think that is sufficient . i confess , i cannot enough wonder at his printing of mine , since it discovers too plainly the defects of his answer ; and i am apt to think that his printer has engaged him to it , as a thing that would have a good appearance . in this the printer did wisely : for he was sure his book would go off the better ; but mr. varillas did a greater kindness to his stationer than to himself . nor do i believe , that he intended it at first ; for there are some parts of my reflections so falsly represented by him in his answer , that i cannot believe he would have done it , if he had then intended to have printed my reflections : otherwise i must conclude , that his judgment and his sincerity are both of a piece : for instance , could a man , that had intended to have printed what i had said , concerning the lord darnley , being the next heir after queen mary to the crown of england , so that he might have been a dangerous competitor to her in that succession , he having been born and bred in england . could , i say , this man pretend that i had affirmed , that the lord darnley was a dangerous competitor to her for the crown of scotland , and his putting that in the citation he makes of my words , instead of the crown of england , would appear strange in any other , but in him such strains are so common , that i am not surprised at this ; yet he has the impudence to triumph upon it , and to spend some pages to shew that her title was undisputed . i find many more instances of the like foul dealing , which makes me conclude , that mr. varillas did not design at first to print my reflections : and besides this , he copies out sometimes half pages of my words , which he would not have done , if he had intended to have given them entire to the reader : for they are not so much to his advantage , that he had reason to desire that they should be twice read . he tells the world , that if he had a mind to imitate my passionate way of writing , and if he would write my life , ever since i was chaplain to my lady dutchess of hamilton , to this present time , that i am by my fault become a citizen of holland , he would write things so singular , that they would make his answer the most agreeable book that had been printed of a great while for this i know there have been men at work both in scotland and england , to furnish mr. varillas with materials to defame me : and because i will conceal nothing that i know that is to his honour , i was informed that he writ back to england , that he would not medle with those personal things ; and that he wisht , that instead of these , they would send him good memorials relating to the matters in dispute between him and me . this was to act like a fair enemy , i confess . but i do not say this to bespeak his favour , that so he may not print all those informations that were sent to him from a society , that having forged them , had a mind to put another on publishing them . let him print them when he will ; for i am not affraid of all the hurt they can do me : and indeed , if one may judge of this epocha of my life , by the two periods here mentioned , the writing upon such informations may very well agree with mr. varillas's other histories ; for these may be authors of as good credit , for ought i know , as his florimond de raymond was . i was never chaplain to the dutchess of hamilton ; i do not deny this , as judging it any diminution to me , if it had been true : for i do honour both her person and family so much , that i would rather value myself self upon it , if i had been ever in her family : but i never was caplain to any subject ; i was chaplain to the late king , but to no other . the last period passes my apprehension ; mr. varillas reproaches me for the meanness and flatness of my stile : for he that penetrates into so many secrets , that never were , can even judge of an english stile by a translation : yet since that he is the first who has reproached me for so very bad a stile , i ought to bear this the more patiently : but since he fancies that he has attained the sublime of stile , i would gladly know to which of all longins rules , this expression belongs , that by my fault i am become a citizen of holland . by my fault seems so odly placed here , and a citizen of holland is so strang a way of expressing my being naturalised by the states , and would intimate as if mr. varillas's ignorance went so far as to fancy that holland was a city ; that since there are two sorts of sublimes , the one of nonsence , and the other of eloquence , i will not take upon me to judge to which of these this belongs . for it is too great a presumption in one whose stile is so low as mine , to examin the flights of so elevated a writer . as for the rest of this memoire , i am very little concerned whether he print it or not . i have behaved my self so of late , as to shew that i am neither afraid of any discoveries that can be made , nor disturbed at any calumnies , by which my enemies may endeavour to blacken me : and as i had much rather have mr. varillas print all that has been sent him concerning me , than to publish it up and down paris : so whatever he thinks fit to say of me , shall be either treated by me with the silent scorn , that an ill made lye deserves , or shall be answered as the matter may happen to require it . but before i enter into any more particular enquiries , i will in general state the whole matter , as it lies between mr. varillas and my self : and then i will leave it even to the judgment of a reader that may be partial of his side . he had published two volums of the revolutions that have hapned in europe , in the matters of religion : and with relation to english affairs he had pretended in his preface , that he did found that part of his work on card. de bellay's letters , besides several other papers that he cited on the margin of his ninth book : but he had given no intimations where any of these were to be found : i had on the other hand writ the history of that time , in which i not only cited many original papers , but had likewise printed the most important of them , and had also told where they were to be found : as for those which i have cited from publick records , they are accessible to all the world , for the greatest part : and for those that are not to be come at but by a warrant under the kings hand , that is so easily had , and would be so readily granted at present , that i may with some degrees of just assurances say , that i ought to be believed till it can be made appear that i have been guilty of any imposture in those citations : and the stir that has been made of late to supply mr. varillas with matter against me , and the meanness of those objections with which they have furnished him , gives me reason to conclude , that they know they cannot accuse me of fraud or forgery , in any of my citations : as for the other original papers , that i mention , they are either in the cotton library in corpus christi colledge in cambridge , or in some other private hands : but i have cited all these so particularly , as to tell whether my vouchers were originals or copies ; and have told so exactly where those of the cotton library may be found , that a man cannot be a minute there , without being able to discover , whether i have cited sincerely or not . i had also in my history confined my self so severely to the materials with which i was furnished , that i resolved not to add one tittle to that which appeared clearly to me to be well verified : and tho mr. varillas reproaches me , for writing so superficially , and for mentioning only publick events ; yet i am not ashamed to own that where authentick proofs failed me : i would not impose upon my readers so far , as to give them my imaginations for true history ; where i am forced to guess , i warn my reader of it ; and when the grounds on i went seemd which i went seemed to me only probable , i advertised my reader likewise of it : so that i writ my history with the same scrupulous exactness , that i would have used , if i had been required to give a deposition upon oath before a judge . this being the case , i do not pretend to be believed upon my own word : i do not say , the state of the records and libraries is altered since i writ ; i do not pretend that i saw many papers in confidence , so that i cannot in honour discover where they are . i will not say , that mr. varillas proves himself to be an impostor by such pretences ; but i am sure this is the method that an impostor would use : and whenever i pretend to excuse my self in this manner , i am content to past for one . his defence of himself from the four thousand citations of du tillet , and peter du puy , that are now all found to be false , tho he says , it is as certain they were all true when those eminent authors writ , is another of his sublime strains : for if they are now false , they were false at all times : but if a man that has so low a stile as mine is , dares ofter to correct him , i crave leave to tell him , that he should have said , that tho the proofs of those citations cannot now be found , yet there is good reason to believe that those authors cited them sincerely . this i guess to be his meaning , tho his sublime wants sometimes a little clearness : but it is very probable , that if those authors had been called to an account for their citations , they could have answered for themselves in another manner than mr. varillas has done . i confess , when i heard that he was writing an answer to my reflections , i could not imagin where he could attack me : i knew i had authentick proofs for all that i had laid to his charge ; yet i fancied he might have seen some letters of that time , in which those matters had been represented as he relates them : for false newes are writ at all times , and from all courts : and if he had been able to justify himself by such vouchers , this would have saved his own reputation , tho the proofs i had given to the contrary , would have had still force enough to discredit his history : i fancied at least that he would have cited some of cardinal de bellay's letters : but i was surprised when i received his answer , and saw , that instead of all these authorities , of which he had boasted , that the only two authors that he cites , are florimond de raimond , and himself ; the two worst writers that he could find : if in his preface he had owned that he had done nothing , but copied florimond de raimond ; that he was his warrant ; that his testimony was the authentick proof of what he affirmed ; and that he himself was only florimond de raymond's eccho ; if , i say , he had owned in his preface all this , then i acknowledg , that i had no reason to complain of him , since he justifies himself by so many pages cited from that author , that they make the half of his answer ; but since he pretends to write upon original papers , and yet does not cite any one , i leave it to all indifferent men to conclude , what account is to be hereafter made of all the histories that either has come or can come from him : let him print his vouchers , or at least , let him tell where they may be found ; otherwise i will take the liberty to tell him , that all his histories are romances , which he has drawn as to the matters of fact out of the worst authors , and the most decried of any that had writ in the last age ; and to which he adds a refining of policy , such as his own invention could furnish ; so that without the least aggravation , i do affirm , that one may seek the history of alexander the great , or of augustus , in the romances of cassandra or cleopatra , with as much assurance as the history of the reformation in mr. varillas : all the difference between him and those romantick writers being , that they built indeed on good authors , upon which they grafted their own fictions , yet in such a manner that no body could be deceived by them : whereas mr. varillas had founded his romance on very bad authors , and he delivers his fictions with such an air of sincerity , as may very probably deceive those who believe too easily . so that i see nothing that is left for him , to preserve that small remnant of reputation that it seems a coquelin , or some few of his friends , retain yet for him ; but to own that he intended not to write true histories , but only to amuse the world with a new sort of nouvelles : in which the point at which he aimed , was not to tell truth ; but that as the writers of plays or romances , think the best way to work upon the passions , is to dress up known storys with moving circumstances , since men are not so apt to be affected when all is fiction ; so he fancied , that he could not raise a rage against heresy , and an admiration of that conduct that has driven it out of france , by any other method so successfully , as by this that he has taken . if , i say , he will betake himself to this defence . i will pursue him no further ; but till he is so sincere as to confess his impostures , i will take the pains yet once more to unmask him , and after i have laid him open for this answer , as well as for the second volum of his history , then i shall take leave of him : and will promise him , that for ought i know , i will never write more against him ; for this one good reason , which is , that i will never read one word of his writings any more ; and now i doubt no but i shall make him to be so well known , that to turn his approver in mr. coquelins words a little altered , his works will need no more to be decried ; for the bare name of the author will be beyond all that a can be said for their disparagement . i confess , i cannot imagin what a sort of a man mr. coquelin is , whose approbation accompanies all mr. varillas's late works ; for it seems he cannot find another that is so complying , and therefore he does not change his man. i fancy mr. coquelin must be profoundly learned in the oriental tongues , or in the mathematicks ; for these are the studies in the world , that are most opposite to that of history ; therefore i conclude , that mr. varillas comes to him as to the person in the whole sorbon , that is the most unacquainted with late transactions : and perhaps he finds him resolving some probleme , or reading some arabick manuscript ; and as all men , tho addicted to one sort of study , yet are willing to be thought universal ; so no doubt mr. coquelin hopes to pass for a good judge in history , by approving mr. varillas's books : but he will do better to go on in the course of his other studies , in which he may be very eminent for ought i know ; but i am sure he is a very ill judge of the history of the last age. i shall not take the pains to examin all that recital that mr. varillas makes of the pensions that have been offered to him ; and that have been refused by him . i will believe them all for once : and this is a great matter for me to do , since he himself is the only author of this piece of his own history ; for his credit is not very authentical with me ; but all that can be made out of this , is , that he had once gained some reputation , as a man that had discovered many secrets , and that had penetrated into many intrigues ; all which he has made a shift now to lose ; for as long as he went about the ruelles of paris , those things might perhaps pass with less exact judges ; but now that he will carry his visions further , he is not like to be solicited on all hands by the offers of pensions any more : so he must now try to keep up the value of his books ; for the sale of them , being perhaps the only revenue that is left him ; he must maintain their credit better than he has done , otherwise both they and he will sink in their price . it is not the dedicating his books to a great monarch , that will support their reputation . it seems he fancies , that those poor flateries that he has offered up at that altar , give him such a pretension to a protection from thence , that he may boldly invite that prince to be a witness to this dispute of his with me ; not considering how much it is below the sublimity of such a monarch , to be appealed to on so mean an occasion : it is a forgetting the respect due to crowned heads , to run to them with every trifle : but mr. varillas will needs engage the king in the quarrel , and represent himself as his champion , not doubting but that this his zeal for his glory will receive some eminent reward ; yet if the reward is proportioned to the service that is done , it will not go far : and as it seems the iesuites have desired mr. varillas not to meddle with the concerns of their order ; for they are too good judges not to know that the services of so decried an author , are injuries rather than favours ; so it is not to be doubted , but those two eminentmen , who have consecrated their pens to their princes honour , will be moved with a just indignation when they see how poorly it is defended by mr. varillas ; and that they will procure an order , prohibiting him to medle with subjects that are so far above him . but it is very likely , that this precaution will be needless : and that he will quickly bring himself as low in the esteem of the world , as it seems he is high in his own . for not contended to tell the world , that he rises above the vulgar , and that he has studied to imitate the antients , leaving , as in a region below him , such poor writers as i am , to be reckoned among the historians of the lower form , as if all this were too little , he will carry his own commendations further : and since this ingrateful age does not pay him the esteem it owes him , he will make all that up in a most superlative value that he puts on himself . he is not satisfied to compare himself to tacitus , but thinks the characters that he gives are even superiour to those of tacitus . i will not disturb him in the peaceable possession of those good thoughts that he has of his own productions , in which i believe he has few rivals : but as for that small disposition that i once had to think well of them , with which he reproaches me sometimes , he has so fully convinced me of my mistake , that he has quite cured me of it ; i had softned a severe censure i put on his works , by saying , that his writings wanted none of the beauties of history , but that of truth ; where the incense that i gave in the former part of the period , was intended to carry some mitigation to the sharpness of the latter part of it ; but as one that is extreamly in love with himself , misrepresents even the reproofs given him , as if they had been praises ; so he turns this as if i had said , that he wanted none of the qualities of a good historian , without adding any expression of that of truth ; yet because i confess my words gave some occasion to this mistake , and since i would not be willingly guilty of any thing that may encrease his distemper , i do now acknowledg , that i writ these words too carelesly , and that i shewed more good breeding than exactness in them . but to let him see how apt i am to confess my faults , and to retract them , i do acknowledg that he has so fully convinced me of my error , that i am now like to fall into the other extream , and to allow him none of the beauties of history , unless it be a smooth way of telling his dreams ; for there is as little judgment as there is truth in what he writes . i hope he is now satisfied with my sincerity in this confession ; and to shew him how sensible i am of my former error , i shall take great care in all time coming , not to commend him beyond what i think is due to him , and then i am sure i shall be very sparing , and will praise his works as little as those learned men at paris do , who begin now to speak out to the world that which they said to me in discourse , while i had the honour to see them . mr. hosier's letter is no great sign of his admiring mr. varillas , as much as it seems he himself does ; and tho i do not think fit to name the persons that gave me those ill impressions of his works , for which he reproaches me , yet i do not doubt but some of them will name themselves too soon perhaps for his honour . a man is indeed tempted by the confidence with which mr. varillas proposes his fictions to the world , to express his indignation in terms that are perhaps sharper than is fitting : and this carried me into a smartness in my reflections upon him , that had never appeared in any of my other writings : the cause , the present conjuncture of affairs , and the reputation that mr. varillas had gained , seemed to require it : but now i do assure him , that how much raillery or contempt soever he may find in my reply to him , he shall meet with no mixture of anger . i must put a little salt and seasoning in a writing of this nature : for it is a dull business to go on in a flat strain like his , and only to say this is false , and that is impudent , and to sprinkle here and there a course piece of raillery . i will therefore make my self and my reader a little merry with him : for a very bad entertainment must be set off with guarnishings : and mr. varilla's errors and his ignorance exposed to the world , would make but an ill regale , if they were not quickned with a little humour . a very short answer carrys off all that is material in this book ; for the only authority that is brought being florimond de raymond ; as soon as i have shewed how little credit is due to him , then the substance of his whole answer is examined : he lived at bourdeaux far from england , and from the knowledg of english affairs : he had no sort of instruction relating to our matters , but what he drew from sanders , whose eccho he was , as much as now mr. varillas is his . so that since sanders was the text upon which both he and all the other writers of the roman communion had only enlarged , i had reason to conclude , that the overthrowing sander's credit , did at the same time refute all the other authors that had copied him . and i had done this so effectually , that no man has since that time pretended to justify sanders . i do not think every man is bound to read my book ; yet i may say , that every man that goes to write upon those matters , is bound to read it , and either to discover that the authorities upon which i have founded my history , are false , or to forsake those common mistakes that forreigners had taken up on sander's authority . it is no excuse for a man that has followed those authors to say , that such a man had said those things before him ; unless it appears , that the voucher was both well informed , and that he was a sincere and dispassionate man. now as florimond de raymond had no particular informations of our affairs , so a man sees in every period of his history , so much of a malignant spirit against the reformation , that this gives a just prejudice against all that he says : and if i have proved beyond a possibility of contradiction , that the relations that he gives must be false , they will not become true because a florimond , or a varillas from him , have affirmed them . as for that part of florimond's history , which relates to the affairs of england , it is not so much as pretended to be writ by him : for the contrary is expresly intimated in the preface , & his son seems to claim the praise of that to himself . but upon the whole matter , it is first very much doubted , whether he was at all the author of those books that passed under his name . for many have said , that f. richeome a iesuite writ them , and borrowed the name of a councellour of parliament to give his work the more credit : perhaps it was thought necessary to set a writer of some name in opposition to mr. de thou , whose history was writ with too much sincerity to be acceptable to that order . peter mathieu in his history says positively , that it was believed that f. richeome was the author of the books that went under the name of florimond de raimond . viguier in his theater of antichrist , and rivet in his answer to the iesuite , say the same thing : and these were men that writ soon after florimond's books appeared . blondel was also of the same mind ; and tho he aggreed with the pretended florimond concerning the falsehood of the story of pope ioan , upon which he had also writ a book ; yet he spends forty pages towards the end of his book , to shew how poorly florimond had disproved it , and lays him open in a vast number of errors , that he had committed , of which some are extream absurd . it is true , some of the writers of the church of rome have magnified him highly : a man that writ so passionatly for them , could not fail of this : so no wonder if possevin and gretzer cry him up : and we see by a letter of card. baronius , ( published by mr. colomies ) writ to florimond de raimond , how highly he valued him , and that he looked on him as a most extraordinary person . but all this will not prevail much on those who knew the genius of those writers , and how apt they were to magnify every one that was passionate in their cause . yet these praises given him by strangers , could not raise his reputation in france , where he never passed for a writer of any note , either for judgment or sincerity : and he was as little esteemed in the quality of a judge , as he deserves to be for his writings ; for the character that was given of him , was no less severe than pleasant : iudicat sine conscientia , libros scribit sine scientia , & aedificat sine pecunia : he judges without conscience , he writes books without knowledge , and builds without money . and now this is the hero of mr. varillas , upon whose testimony he triumphs : and he who perhaps a year ago , would have resented it , as the greatest indignity that could have been done him , if it had been said , that he did nothing but copy such an author , and that he was only his eccho , is now glad to fly to so poor a shift ; for which he is , as i hear , so much censured in paris , that it is perhaps too great a cruelty in me to urge this matter too far . yet mr. varillas has a sublim tour in every thing , so that instead of setting before us the reasons that led him to depend upon such an author , which might pass with the world , such , as that he was well informed , and that he was free of passion : he gives one , which indeed no man besides himself would ever have thought on : he tells us , that he had a wife and children : now it is not easy to find out the force of this argument : but a man must rise above the vulgar as much as mr. varillas , to comprehend his lofty strains . if to have wife and children makes a man a good writer , one may conclude without any further enquiry , that mr. varillas has neither . here is also a new argument for he marriage of the clergy , that has never been yet thought on , yet an ordinary capacity like mine , cannot comprehend why this should have made florimond de raimond a good writer , and why it had not the same effect on mr. de thou . so i think i have said enough concerning this councellour of bourdeaux , and his wife and children . there are two other general considerations , which i will propose before i enter into the more particular review of his answer : he argues in several places against matters that i had proved by the most authentical evidences possible ; and from some improbabilities he pretends to overthrow what i had said : and in one place he thinks he argues strongly , when he says , i cannot shew him an instance that the like ever fell out before : an impossibility is indeed a very good answer to all the proofs that can be brought : and such are the evidences by which i overthrow the calumnies thrown on anne bullen : but improbabilities ought never to be set against positive proofs : for men are so apt to be guided by humour and caprice , and are sometimes so blinded by passion and interest , that they do often depart from all the rules both of prudence and decency : nor is it a reason to be alledged by any , but mr. varillas , that such things cannot be true , because i cannot shew the like instance in any other history . for supposing that were true , every age , as it produces originals , so affords new subjects of amasement : for instance , it may seem incredible that a man could have writ so many books of history as mr. varillas has done , in which he mentions nothing less than letters , instructions , and other original papers ; and this in an age in which men are not easy nor implicit , but love to examin matters , and that also upon subjects of religion , in which it was probable , that some men might call him to an account ; and that yet this man , when called to an account , should not cite one of all these papers , but should build only on a doubted and despised author : and that when he had reason to think , that this other writings might be critically examined , he went on in the same careless and bold strain ; a man may argue very strongly , that this cannot be true ; and it is certain , that mr. varillas cannot give an instance that the like ever fell out before ; yet after all , the thing is true ; so that improbabilities may be justly set against probabilities ; but they are unreasonably urged against positive proofs . truth is truth still , tho it had never fallen out but once ; as mr. varillas is an original ; for there was never an author before him that carried on impostures in matters of history so impudently as he has done . mr. varillas cites likewise many passages out of his other books , to shew that he was not ignorant of those things for which i charge him , and which contradict what he has writ in his history of heresies : but first , i do assure him , i have not read his other books with so much exactness as to remember all that is in them . i was indeed at first surprised , with the many discoveries that he seemed to make ; but i very quickly made another discovery , that destroyed them all : and found , that he was a writer of romances , and not of true histories , unless it be in that sense in which lucian uses that title : so i am nothing concerned in his other books , but intend only to destroy his credit , which , i think my self as much obliged to do , as to discover a false coyner : if he has writ differently in his other books , from what he writes in this , i am not bound to receive or bear all his contradictions : and from this very thing , by which he pretends to justify himself , he destroys his own credit ; for if he had writ upon good instructions , all would have been uniform : for truth is ever the same , and does not change faces : but a man that writes his own visions , cannot carry always along with him all his dreams : and therefore he fits them to the present occasion ; so that his having reported them in another manner in some of his other books , does not at all justify him , but gives a further discovery of his romantick impostures . i now come to a more particular enquiry , and shall hereafter follow him more closely ; but i will represent only the most eminent of the impertinencies that are in his book , and strike the eye ; for to search after all , were both endless and needless . i. he will needs justify his view of heresy , delivered in a prophetick stile , from titus livius's beginning ; who only tells what he intended to do himself : which any writer besides mr. varillas may very well do ; for those who write upon true information , know what they go about ; but an author of romances cannot so easily fore-tel this : i do not quarrel with him for telling what he intended to do himself , but for representing the progress of heresy in a fore-telling stile . it seems his acquaintance among the roman authors is equal to his knowledg of manuscripts ; otherwise he could have found others that had begun their works as livy does , without going so far down as to st. ierome ; and if that father had not done the church more service in writing on the scriptures , than he did in the writing of lives , his authority would be as small as mr. varillas ought to be . ii. i tell him once for all , that i do not believe a title of the negotiation of mr. de noailles , that he cites , nor of any other upon his word , unless he tells where they may be found ; and if mr. de noailles was instructed to go to the duke of northumberland , when edward the sixth was but thirteen year old ; then the paper must be false : for dudley was not created duke of northumberland before edward the sixth was fifteen years old : there is a great difference between governing a prince , and being his governour : all the world believed , that cardinal de richelieu governed lewis the thirteenth ; yet no body called him his governour . iii. he denies , that in the two editions of his book printed at paris , the epithet simple is added to the quality of gentleman , with which he had honoured the lord darnley ; in this i must refer my self to those who have the french editions ; but all who have read the impression of amsterdam , see that he does me wrong in saying , that i have added it . no , i leave such practices to mr. varillas . i have taken some pains to find a book of the paris edition in this countrey , but have not been able to do it : yet as for his answer , and his second volum , i have them before me of the paris edition , so there shall be no more room for any such dispute for the future ; but it is strange , that this word simple should have been soisted into the dutch impression , if it was not in the paris edition : words are left out , but seldom added in those impressions , that do only copy another . the series of the narration makes me believe , that mr. varillas denies this , with the same sincerity that he affirms other things , why did he call him a gentleman without adding any other description of his quality ; for let him say what he will , of the honour of that title , yet all the world knows , that when a man is upon such an occasion qualified barely as a gentleman ; that it is understood , that he has no higher rank , nor any particular distinction : and that which comes after this , that by this marriage the queen grew contemptible to all her subjects ; shews , that even tho simple were not to be found in the paris editions , yet it must be understood . but because mr. varillas will pretend to know the scottish story , he offers to recriminate . in short , those who sent him that story of my life , have also furnished him with some . errors for which he charges me in such heinous terms as to call them faults of vast importance , which the meanest of all the little schollars at edinburgh would have avoided . i ought to fall a trembling here ; for i know there would be no quarter for me if i fell into mr. varillas's hands : yet all these dreadful words come only to this , that she whom i called the lord darnley's grandmother , proves to be his great grandmother ; and that she whom i call isabel , was margaret . and are not these justly to be aggravated with such severity , as to say , that these were faults of the grossest sort , against the first elements of the history of my countrey . i forgive mr. varillas for magnifying those mistakes , since he can meet with no other : and i do not find my self a whit troubled , if writing in holland , where i had not the requisites of books or papers , i did not carry the race of the family of lennox so exactly in my memory , but that i might mistake so far as to call a great grandmother a grandmother ; and there having been a famous lady isabel dowglas , if i mistook isabel for margaret , this is no great matter . but he charges me with a third , because i said , that the branch of the lennox's came out of the family of the stewards , before the crown came into it by marriage ; whereas he tells me , i should have said at the same time , since the first of the family of lennox was brother to him that married the heir of the crown . if i had said , long before , he might have challenged me for it ; but the younger brother being born before that marriage , and not being descended from it , i used all necessary caution in my words , my design being only to shew , that the house of lennox , by the paternal descent , had no relation to the crown : after this our author , to make some reparation to the royal family , reckons up the honours that some branches of the house of lennox had in france , as that they were marquisses , counts of aubigny , viceroys of naples , admirals of sicily , and mareshals of france : tho to make up this catalogue of honour , the same man runs charles the fifths fate , to be subdivided into two or three dignities . but mr. varillas ought to know , that the dignity of the k. of england's birth is too great a thing to receive any addition by the imployments that those of the family of lennox might have merited in france : so mean a man as mr. varillas , who has nothing in his thoughts but the smiles of versailles , fancies he gives a lustre to one of the greatest kings in europe , when he says , that some of his family served in france , which rather lessens his race than exalts it . as for his impudence in putting the crown of scotland instead of the crown of england , and his making me say , that the lord darnley might have been a dangerous competitor to mary queen of scots for that crown , when not only my words , but the whole series of the discourse , shews , that i meant only of the crown of england , was already observed . it will indeed bear a repetition ; for it is a remarkable instance of mr. varillas's sincerity , and shews how safely the world may rely on his word . he shews his ignorance again in saying , that his marriage of the queen of scotland , was the first cause of the change of religion in scotland . the change of religion was made before the queen came out of france , and so was setled some years before this marriage ; and this was rather a step towards the subverting of the religion then established , since the lord darnley lived and died a roman catholick . iv. what he says to shew , that the greatness of queen maries spirit does not contradict the character that he gives of her , is so poor , that i will not examin it ; the subject is too tender to admit of it , as well as what he says is too dull to deserve it . v. he gives a long citation of his own words , by which it does not appear that i supprest any thing that needed to be told by me ; if this book had been printed two years sooner than it was , i should have believed , that mr. varillas was in pension to some body else , than the king of england , by the pains he is at to justify the putting a bastard into the succession of the crown : for i do not believe , that at this time any body thinks him considerable enough to be corrupted . 2. his alledging that i had accused him as if he had said , that the king had composed whole volums on this subject , is another mark of his sincerity ; for it is visible , i had said no such thing . 3. the proofs he brings to justify what he had said of the baseness of the race of the tudors from some strangers , and harpsfield , one of the worst of our writers , are not to be put in the ballance either with polider virgil's testimony , or the more authentick evidences that i had given , particularly in my appendix , to which he says not a word . 4. there is a great difference between saying , that the tudors were not gentlemen , and the denying that he was a fit match for a queen-dowager . and tho mr. de courteney is perhaps of a higher degree of nobility , than i pretend that the tudors are , yet i believe he would be thought an unequal match to a queen dowager of france : so tho the tudors might perhaps drive up their pedigree to cadwaller , yet they had been for some ages reckoned only as one of the best families of w●les : and this puts an end to all that trifling of his , when he pretends to argue against his birth , by saying , that if he was so descended , he was an equal match to the queen dowager . 5. there might be very good reasons that might make the queen conceal her marriage all that was possible , even tho tudor had been ever so good a gentleman : for she being a queen-mother , and having a son newly born , which gave the prospect of a long share in the government , she had reason to hide her marrying a gentleman , had he been ever so nobly born . the dowager of france , that was king henry's sister , had none of those considerations for hiding her marriage with brandon ; and the other sister the queen dowager of scotland , had no reason at all to hide her marriage ; for she made it to secure her in the government , dowglas earl of angus being then the greatest subject in the nation : so the keeping this marriage with tudor secret , does not at all prove that he was no gentleman . 6. but mr. varillas does not pretend to answer the main thing that i laid to his charge , which was , that he speaks of the tudor that married into the family of the plantagenets , as a mean man , when he was the kings uterine brother ; so that i shewed , that when he writ his history , he knew nothing of that marriage , since it is not to be imagined , that any man who knew it could pretend to reckon up the race of the tudors , without mentioning its chief dignity . 7. if i had thought so slight a fault , which mr. varillas magnifies so much in me , of calling a great-grand-mother a grand-mother , worth mentioning , here i have proved him guilty of it ; for he calls the tudor that married the plantagenet , great-grand-father to king henry the viii . whereas he was only his grand-father . 8. he tells us in his justifying the succession of bastards , that the rank of the king's bastard was much higher than owen tudors was ; but tho the french have so far flattered the lewdness of their kings , as to esteem their bastards princes born , yet in england they have no rank at all , till the king gives them a title , and then their rank is only according to the degree and the date of their creation . vi. he confess here the very words that i cited out of him , and yet he pretends , that i had accused him falsely . but that he may have some colour for this , he charges on me words that are not in my reflections . he had said , the four principal cantons had suffered themselves to be seduced in less than a year ; whereas this was ten years work : and now he thinks to save this by saying , that a great part was abused in less than a year ; but even this belonged only to zurich ; whereas he had said , that the four cantons suffered themselves to be seduced : besides that , what he speaks thus of the cantons in general , cannot be meant of some individuals , but must be understood of the magistracy ; and yet now he confesses , that they were ten years a considering this matter before it was generally received by the government , to whom only the name of the cantons belongs : and as the bigness of the town of basil does not hinder its being one of the little cantons , so the pensions that france might pay an age ago to schaffhouse , will never change its rank among them : nor does he say a word to justify his mustring up of the seven popish cantons among the small ones ; or his raising appensel and glaris to be among the middlesised . vii . here he remembers me of my fault of having said , that his way of writing wanted none of the beauties of history , except that of truth ; which he thus repeats , according to his ordinary sincerity , that i my self had avowed , that he wanted none of the qualities proper for writing history ; without putting in my exception of that of truth : that even by this citation he might justify my accusing him of want of truth : but he tells us , that by his copyers fault his preface to his third book was lost ; so he was forced to make that up the best he could ; and then he comforts himself with his meditation , that the books of authors are subject to fortune as well as other human things : but i was not bound to know the secrets that past between him and his copyer , no more than i am bound now to believe what he says of it . the books of authors are subject to fortune ; for by a great chance his were once in some esteem ; but as we say of the dead , that they are beyond the reach of fortune ; so his books very likely may be soon exempted from fortune in that sense . in short , he seems to confess , that the preamble he sets before luthers affair is impertinent , and i said no more of it . viii . he gives me an advice how i should have begun my history : with the indignation that the english nation had to the papacy ever since king john had subjected his crown to the holy see , and had established the peterpence , that this was encreased because a pope had made them lose guienne , by binding one of their kings to levy the tenths on the church lands : that king henry the eighth's lewdness gave him a great byas to schism , which he pursues in a full career : and repeats those absurd calumnies concerning anne bullen , which i had to copiously refuted : and at last he adds , that king henry raised mean persons to great imployments ; that these by the laws and government of england , could not enrich themselves but moderatly , and in many years ; and therefore since they resolved they would be rich all of the sudden , they saw they must do it at the churches cost . i do not wonder that mr. varillas should advise me to have made up a preface in this manner , that so i might write in his own way ; but i think i have sufficiently convinced him , that i have not such an esteem of him as to be much inclined to follow his councel . 1. it was king ina , and not king john , that setled the peter-pence 2. k. john's action was a personal baseness in him , which did not at all affect the kingdom ; so that there was scarce any notice taken of that meanness of his , unless it was to make him that was guilty of it contemptible ; for a king of england can neither alienate nor subject his crown to any forreign power . 3. what he says of guienne seems to be one of his discoveries ; for it is not mentioned by any of our historians , that i know of . 4. at the time that guienne was lost , the popes by residding at avignon , and being considered as in the power of france , had so little credit in england , that as there were many laws made all that while against the papal pretensions , so a bull at that time could not have been so much as executed in england , without the kings leave , much less could it have obstructed the subsidies levied upon the clergy . 5. he understands the interest of england as little as he does other things , that fancies the nation was much troubled for the loss of guienne : which lay at so great a distance , and was defended at so vast a charge , that the nation that received no profit by it , in an age in which there was little trade , was glad of getting out of this necessity of giving the king so many subsidies . if he had apply'd that which he says of guienne to normandy , it had been more pertinent ; but mr. varillas is as wanting in judgment , as he is fruitful in invention . 6. he ought not to awaken the memory of the pretensions that england has upon guienne ; for if the rights of crowns are so sacred , that no prescription cuts them off , and that no treaties can alienate them , a time may come when a chamber may be set up at westminster , as well as we have seen one at metz , to examine the pretensions of the crown of england to guienne , which will be found less ancient and better made out , than some that have been carried up to king dagobert . 7. but i would gladly know what law of england has prescribed the measure and the number of years in which the kings ministers may enrich themselves : but mr. varillas has found out laws that we have not , as he is ignorant of those we have : and now i think i have given him good reasons , why i do not think fit to follow his advice in the making of prefaces . ix . he is so much in love with his maxim concerning the slavery to which he fancies religion carries men , in not suffering them to examin , whether what they say is true or false , that he repeats it twice so copiously , that he bestows ten lines upon it in every one of these two pages . 2. he cites a famous calvinist , that commended him for his sincerity in setting forth the handsome actions of those of that party ; and who owned , that he had not seen any of his side , commend those of the other party with the like sincerity ; but since i give so little credit to mr. varillas's citations , even when he names all particulars , he cannot expect that i will consider this much . 3. but what sincerity soever he might have affected in his history of charles the ninth , which he did perhaps to gain him some reputation , that he might be the less inspected in what should come afterwards , i am sure no calvinist will make him great complements for the future . 4. mr. varillas's defence of his theory of the power of religion is wonderful ; he says , it seems i thought he meant only that true religion had this power over the conscience ; whereas he is convinced by experience , that false religions have as much power over mens minds as the true has . if mr. varillas were not of so singular a composition as he is , the excuse that he ought to have made , was , that he only meant of false religions , or of mens perswasions in matters of religion : but to say that religion does this , and now to own so plainly that the true religion does it as well as false ones , is an expression that is so contrary to all religion , that i do not see how mr. coquelin can answer to the faculty for his licensing such a book : for tho the good man is utterly unacquainted with historical matters , yet he seems to have read tertullian , and he ought to understand a little divinity : now tho his competence in that is probably very small , as appears by his way of treating me , yet even the catechism will inform him , that true religion instead of making us unconcerned in what we write , whether it is true or false , binds us to the greatest strictness of truth . 5. his second excuse is of the same force : he says , that according to the principles of the catholick religion , after the authority of the church is once interposed , there is no need of any ones troubling himself , whether what she decrees is true or false , since the decision must certainly be true . but the occasion that led mr. varillas to deliver this wonderful apothegme , was concerning historical matters of fact , in which points of doctrine are not concerned , except he will conclude , that when one is assured in matters of doctrine , he may support them with lyes , which he has indeed taken care to do , even to a degree of supererogation : and after all , it is to be reckoned among the sublimes of mr. varillas , that he expresses the assurance of the infallibility of the church , by saying , that one does not trouble himself , to examin whether what she decrees is true or false . if then this is the sense of his words , they cannot belong to those religions , that do not own that infallibility ; so that in short , the priviledge of not considering whether what one says is true or false , belongs only to roman catholicks ; in which we have no reason to pretend to a share . and if this is the priviledge of catholcisk , mr. varillas must be concluded the truest catholick in the world ; so never man used it in its full extent as he has done . x. what he says of my history's being so partial , is a reproach that he does not confirm by any one instance ; and i hope he does not expect that i will believe this upon his word . he says , if mr. maimbourg had lived five or six moneths , he had finished his confutation of my book : but if it was so near being compleated , i wonder that mr. varillas could not hear of any one of my many errors , which had been a more important thing , than the putting a grand-mother for a great grand-mother , or an isabel for a margaret . he also tells me , that it will not be impossible for him to prove , either that the papers that i have printed , are not true , or that the copies of some of them that are in the kings library , are defective . this last is so important to me , that the very apprehensions of the discovery should make me dye of fear . certainly mr. varillas has no friends that review what he writes , otherwise tho he himself is very capable of writing extravagantly , yet they could not let such things pass ; for it seems mr. coquelins judgment is of the same sise with his own . xi . he threatens me again with a conviction that shall be stronger than i look for . i confess , if any thing that is strong ; comes from his pen , it will be stronger than i look for . but some one instance had been stronger than so many threatnings : but he added here a little sprinkking of sincerity ; for he confesses ingenuously , that tho he read all the kings manuscripts that were then in the duke of orleans's hands , and were communicated to him by the late mr. de bethune , yet he has drawn no part of his history out of them , but out of the authors that he has cited , and is to cite in this answer . i assure him , i believe one part of this period , that for all his pretending to have founded his history on cardinal de bellay's letters , he has drawn nothing of it out of good papers : for then it would have been quite different from what it is : but i do not believe that he read them all over ; for how weak soever he may be , yet his weakness cannot go so far as to make him fancy that a florimond was a better warrant for his history than original papers . xii . mr. varillas will still pretend to build on cardinal de bellay's letters , which he says , were communicated to him by mr. du puy : he says , he had two negotiations in england ; and that the second did not relate to the divorce , but to the reconciling king henry to p. clement : and here he fills the page with a needless repetition of that matter . and adds , that he made use of that cardinals letters on that single occasion : and for those dangers which he represents , as if the cardinal had set them before the king ; he says , they are contained all in one letter , and that it was not strange if king henry was disposed to reconcile himself to the pope , apprehending danger to his person , since camdem reports , that queen elisabeth could not bring her self to resolve on the queen of scots death , but after she had said those terrible words , either she or i most perish : and in conclusion he says , that the manuscripts that are in the kings library , favour my history so little , that he who would undertake to refute it , page by page , would find more than enough in mr. de bethunes manuscripts alone . 1. mr. varillas had done well to have named the first negotiation of cardinal de bellay in england ; for the books that he cites mention but one . 2. the breach that the king made with the pope , being only founded on the divorce , it cannot be said that this negotiation did not relate to it . 3. i refer the readers to his preface , if they will be at the pains to take so ill a book any more in their hands , there they will find that he makes cardinal de bellay's letters the text of all that he writ of english affairs . 4. if that discourse of the cardinals with the king , of the dangers he might run of rebellions and assassinations , be all contained in one single letter . mr. varillas had obliged the publick more by printing it , than by all the rest of this book . 5. if king henry apprehended this , the more shame for that church , that has authorised such doctrines , and such practices : and in which a pope made a panegyrick on one assassinate , clement , & the iesuites have besainted another , garnet . 6. if mr. varillas intends to justify queen elisabeth's severity to the queen of scots , he does very pertinently to alledge this : for as self-preservation works strongly on all men , so it ought to make a greater impression on princes , whose live are of greater consequence , and more in danger : and if queen elisabeth had reason to say , that either the one or the other must perish , no body will wonder if she chose to let the fate fall on the queen of scots : for in such an alternative , one would not lose much time in the deliberation . 7. as for his threatning me , it is known , that is the language of cowards : i am not affraid of him , and i do not apprehend that he has so much tenderness for me , or that he thinks himself so much obliged to me , that he would not discredit my history , as much as i have done his , if he but knew how to go about it . xiii . he assures me , he has read camdem exactly , and he excuses his citing him as the historian of the revolution of england , only in the singular ; and confesses , if he had said it in the plural number , revolutions , i had some reason for my censure ; so since he writ of the revolution under queen elisabeth , this justifies him . he denys that camdem troubled mr. de thou , with the manuscript of the second part of his history ; which was an imployment below a president de mortier to be concerned in : and he adds , that he has often heard that camdem sent his manuscript to mr. du puy , who took care to print it : and then he reflects on mr. de thou's partiality in all those matters , that related to the queen of scots , and says , that king james spake so severely to his son upon it , that it threw him into a sickness of three moneths continuance : and in conclusion , he thinks i contradict my self , having said , that he had not read a paege in camdem , and yet adding , that he was displeased with him for his having discovered so many rebellions and conspiracies against queen elisabeth ; for how could he know this is he had not read him ? 1. i do not know why mr. varillas calls camden always camdem ; this tempts me still to think , that he never saw his book ; for when men hear names only mentioned in discourse , they are apt to mistake them ; but when they see them before them in print , they write them truer . 2. when mr. varillas set a preface before his first volum , and mentioned a revolution of religion in england in it , that must be understood of the revolution comprehended within the volum , and not of one that does not come in but in the third volum : so the revolution made by king henry , being all that was comprehended in that volum , i had reason to say , he had never opened camden , since he cites him as having writ concerning it . 3. he obliges me here to tell the story of camdens manuscript more particularly than i had thought necessary . mr. de thou having intended to make his history general , entred into a correspondence with the men over all europe , that were most likely to inform him right : so he was in a great correspondence with camden : and when camdens first volum appeared , he writ severely to him , finding that it was so different from what had past between them in letters , chiefly with relation to the queen of scots ; upon which camden told him the truth , that king iames would needs revise it himself , and afterwards put it in the earl of northampton's hands , who was brother to the duke of norfolk , that had been beheaded on that queens account , and that many things were struck out , and many things altered : this troubled camden extreamly , who took care , that his second part should not run the same fate : and therefore he sent it out of england , to that great man , that it might be printed faithfully after his death : this is well-known in england , and the sending the second part beyond sea to a forreigner , does very easily carry a man to believe this to have been the true reason of it . 4. i do not indeed think that a president de mortier went to the cramoisy's and the barbin's of that time , to sell the manuscripts , or to correct the impression : and if so worthy and so learned a man as mr. du puy took care to see it faithfully printed , mr. de thou , as he did nothing unworthy of his dignity in being the depositary of so valuable a piece of history , so he answered the sacredness of the trust to the full , when he put it in his kinsmans hands . 5. it is true , that king iames reproached mr. de thou's son for his father's having copied buchanan's invectives against his mother ; but mr. de thou had a very tender heart , if this gave him a sickness of three moneths . 6. it is no contradiction for me to say , that he never read camden ; and yet to add , that he disliked him for the discoveries he had made ; unless mr. varillas will prove , that it was impossible for him to know this by hear-say : now i , that tell him so oft , and which is worse , that prove that he writes upon hear-say , might well say that he had condemned camden , tho he had never read a word in him , as there are now a great many that think very ill of mr. varillas's histories , and yet are resolved never to be at the pains to read a page in him . xiv . he excuses himself for what he had said concerning mortons history , by telling us , that mr. de la vallade , a gentleman of poictou , that was of the religion , shewed him the latin manuscript of a history , that he said was mortons , which he intended to print ; this he says , he read , and drew extracts out of it : yet mr. varillas here speaks modestly , and says , that manuscript did not at all relate to the times that fall within the two first volums ; and that he will strike out of what remains any thing that is drawn out of that book , if he is informed by his friends in england , that he has been deceived in it . i have already so oft told mr. varillas , that i will take nothing on his word , that i grow weary of repeating it . 2. if this history did not relate to the two first volums , why did he speak of it in his preface to the first ? 3. i believe he needs not take great care of the volums that remain ; for i suppose , the world will be at last convinced . xv. he excuses that which he had said of sanders , whom he had brought in as one of the authors of our history , and of whom he had said , that he was so violent against the protestants , that no wonder if they forced him to dye of hunger in the mountains of the north of england . he pretends , that by calling him violent , he did not intend to reflect on his history : but since he brings him in as a historian , this character must be applied to his book : and as he makes no excuse for his having said , that he died in england , whereas it was in ireland ; so his representing the severity under which he fell , as an effect of his emportments , is a very soft way of speaking , of one that had raised a rebellion , and that upon its miscarriage had fled into woods , where he died of hunger ; but this agrees well enough with his notion of zealous catholicks . xvi . what he says of ribadeneira , is still so trifling , that i will not dwell on the examining of it : the severest things that he could say against england , must have recommended him and his books so much the more to philip the second , who considered queen elisabeth as the greatest enemy he had : so i could not imagin what the severity of the inquisition and philip the second's strictness as to the printing of books had to do here : and there were no false steps of charles the fifths to be related ; for he adhered firmly both to his aunt 's interests , and to the interests of the see of rome in this matter , and his setting on with much vigour the giving sentence at rome , would have appeared rather as a raising , than as a darkning of his glory . xvii . he tells me , that what is printed of lesley's works , is not the tenth part of his works which are preserved with great care in paris , in the scottish colledge . this is like the rest of mr. varillas's citations . it is 23. years since i took some care to be informed by the rector of the scottish colledge , f. barclay , if there were any scottish manuscripts saved in the time of the reformation ; he told me , they had none ; but they believed there were some in italy : since that time there has been pains enough taken to enquire after those grounds , upon which dempster had promised so great a work : but it seems he was a writer like mr. varillas : for it could never be known out of what instructions he intended to draw those things that he promises concerning scotland : and some have been so severe to him as to think , that he made all that pompous apparatus , as mr. varillas makes his histories , out of his own invention . in short , lesley's book has been so well received of all hands , and is so much esteemed , that it will not be easy to persuade any , that a colledge of scottish priests , would have suffered the manuscripts of so good an author , to lye above a hundred years in the dust . xviii . he charges me with a contradiction , for saying , , that there were some of cardinal bellay's letters in the kings library , that were not yet printed : and yet adding in another place , that i know no other of his letters besides those that are printed . but he must have made as great discoveries in logick , as he pretends to do in history , before he can make a contradiction out of these two expressions : some told me there were some of that cardinals letters in the kings library besides those that were printed , and that i knew of no others besides those that are printed . for i do not pretend to have searched the kings library : yet after all , i had said no such thing ; for i only said , that none of the matters , mentioned by mr. varillas , are in the printed volum of that cardinals letters , without adding , whether i knew of any other , or not : tho it is very true , that i know of no other . if i have put him oftner than once in mind of his boldness , in pretending to draw his history out of cardinal de bellay's letters : i do not wonder to see him troubled at it , since he cannot justify any one tittle of his history out of them : the thing was so important , that it deserved to be often repeated , and i used him gently in speaking of it so seldom . xix . he excuses his political . refinings by the example of guichardin . but as there is no part of history more instructing than that of the cabinet , so a man like guichardin , that knew those secrets , and had a share in affairs , obliged the world as much in delivering those so judiciously , as he did , tho perhaps a little too tediously , as mr. varillas has abused it , by so much counterfeit stuff , as he has given out instead of true politicks . but mr. varillas tells me a dreadful thing upon this , that then his friends are not clear sighted , since they have assured him , that this was that which they found to be the least amiss in his books . if mr. varillas writes long at this rate , i shall come to believe , that he has no friends at all ; and if he have any , it seems they are chosen according to martials character ( pares amici ) men of his own sise ; so that i do not now wonder if mr. varillas has been able to find a coquelin , and a few more as ignorant as himself , who may perhaps admire him ; yet he says in one thing true , that this is the part of his books , that is the least amiss ; and indeed this is all the praise that can belong to any part of his books : for tho all that is in them , is amiss ; yet some parts are less amiss than others . and is roving about political projects , are certainly less amiss than his plain and impudent falsehoods . xx. i had accused mr. varillas for saying , that all england , witout excepting any one person , professed the same religion under henry the seventh : and i shewed him , that the putting this so generally must be false , since in the second year of henry the eighth's reign there were a great many condemned of heresy : he pretends to excuse this since the spaniards boast that heresy never past the pyrenees , tho many have suffered in the inquisition for it . but if any spaniard had said , that there was never so much as one heretick in spain , i should have told him that he did not write exactly ; and because i press this no further , than to shew by it , that mr. varillas is a careless writer , and am willing to let it pass with a gentle censure , because i had greater things to lay to his charge , he , according to his usual sincerity , pretends , that i acknowledged the weakness of the objection , and abandoned it . xxi . he pretends , that i accuse him falsly for denying the consummation of p. arthur's marriage : whereas he says , he determined nothing positively concerning p. arthur's impotence . but that was never the question ; for it was never brought under debate , whether he was impotent or not : and that for which i had chiefly accused mr. varillas , was , that he affirmed , that p. arthur was then sick , and not yet recovered out of a great disease : this is all fiction , and is disproved by witnesses upon oath ; but he says not a word to justify this . 2. here the pretends to tell at what pains he was , to examin the affairs of england , that he thought the english and germans of both religions might be too partial ; that the italians were too short ; that ribadeneira might be suspected because of his orders ; and therefore he thought florimond de raimond the best author to depend upon : but if he had read sanders alone , he would have found that both his florimond and his ribadeneira was nothing but sanders over and over again . 3. he accuses me for making him say , that p. arthur died seven moneths after the marriage , whereas he had said five moneths . but in my english it was five moneths : so he has no reason to blame me for this , since i am not bound to answer for a translation ; and tho this was a good and exact translation , in which my meaning was not mistaken , as it has been too often in a translation of a late book of my letters concerning italy , yet so small a mistake was no great matter : and in a thing of this nature , mr. varillas ought to have got some who understand english , to examin my book in the language in which i writ , before he had aecused me of having put seven for five on design to deceive my readers . 4. he justifyes his false citation of the bull , by the most exact of all those who have continued baronius , in whom the words he had cited are to be found . but why then did he cite the third tome of the bullarium on his margin , and why did he not name this writer , and the place of his book : for such a way of citing , especially in mr. varillas , is very suspicious ; and if that author does not set down the bull it self , but only delivers these words as his sense of them , then this was like the rest of mr. varillas's citations , to give this on the margin as drawn out of the bull. 5. he pretends that there is no material difference between his citation and mine : but as it was enough for me to shew , that the words he cited were not in the bull , so tho mr. varillas boasts in another place how much he has studied the law , yet i must take the liberty to tell him , that he has lost his time extreamly , while he pursued that study ; if he does not know a difference between a confirmatory clause , which may have passed with less observation , and what is set forth in a preamble , which being the ground upon which the grace is granted , and set at the head of the bull , is of much more importance , and was probably much better considered , than any general clause . xxii . he accuses me for having said , that henry the eighth was educated as his brother had been , who knew only latin , and some general elements of learning ; and tells me , how learned king henry was . it appears by my words , that i spake only of his first education , and not of the improvements that followed . 2. he seems mightily concerned for the memory of king henry the seventh , as if by this affected zeal he would make some reparations to the royal family , for the injuries he has endeavoured to do them : but i will be so plain as to tell him roundly , that henry the seventh weakned the rights of the crown of england more than any that ever reigned in it : he knew that he could not found his title on his descent from the house of lancaster ; for then he could never have been more than prince of wales , since his mother , by whom he had that pretension , out-lived him a year : and he would not hold the crown by his queens title ; for then the right must have been in her , and have passed from her to her children upon her death , or to her sister , if she hapned to dye without issue : therefore he who would not hold the crown upon such a doubtful tenure , made that dangerous law , that whosoever is in possession of the crown , is to be acknowledged as the legal king. and if king henry the seventh had been so wife a king as some flatterers have made him , he would never have suffered the dutchy of bretagne , to have fallen in to the crown of france , it having been always considered , that the preserving that in a separated principality , was one of the most indispensible maxims of the english policy : yet he , tho he made use of this as a pretence to ask money of his parliament , to oppose it , no sooner had the money , than he gave way to it ; for which it was believed , that he had money from france . 3. he denies that learning w●s then esteemed among princes : and says , that the cardinal of lorrain was the first prince that valued himself upon his learning . but is it not known , that francis the first valued himself upon the protection that he gave to learning : and the glory of the houses of est and medici was not a little encreased by the care they took of learned men ; of which i could convince mr. varillas by his own anecdotes ; if i were not ashamed to cite so bad an author . xxiii . he reproaches me for my insupportable ignorance in not knowing the difference between the council and the parliament of england , and in great charity he explains it to me ; and so he says , that i confound what he had said of the council of england with the parliament . 1. if i were ignorant of this , my ignorance were indeed insupportable : or which is all one , it were as great as his own . 2. but tho he speaks indeed of the council , yet when he had the confidence to cite on the margin the petition of the parliament to the pope , i had reason to discover something else , which is in him , that is yet more insupportable than ignorance : and to prove his forging of authorities , by shewing that the parliament never medled in this matter , which i do yet more evidently in my appendix , since no parliament met at that time . 3. he affirms here , that the council of england knew that care was taken that the marriage with p. arthur could not be consummated ; which is another character of that insupportable quality for which i charge him . i clearly prove , that the privy councellors knew there was no such matter , since they deposed the contrary upon oath . 4 but at last , he betakes himself to his florimond , and there i leave him in company like himself . xiv . he accuses me of an irreparable injury , that i have done the memory of henry the seventh , in taxing him of avarice ; which he says , no historian , protestant or catholick , had done before me . this is a good discovery of his acquaintance with our historians , in particular with chancellor bacon , since that whole reign , but chiefly the last year of it , was a course of extortions ; and as the vast treasure which he left behind him shewed this , so if mr. varillas had known henry the eighths history , he would have seen , that the very day he came to the crown , he sent the two chief instruments of his fathers oppressions to prison , and that their process was made , and they were soon after executed . so certain it is , that mr. varillas read no history of that reign . 2. he excuses the impertinence with which i had taxed him , in calling henry the eighth duke of york after his brothers death , by saying , he did it to avoid a galimathias , which he thinks had followed , if he had called both the brothers princes of wales ; but having once shewed , that by the death of the elder , the younger became prince of wales , this had been no more a galimathias , than to call any successor to a crown the king , which will create no confusion in the readers mind ; or if he was too tender in this point , he might have distinguished them by their names of arthur and henry , which was both clearer and shorter . xxv . he excuses himself here , and says , he drew from a letter of the catholick king 's , that which he had asserted of their apprehensions ; and adds , that authors are not to be blamed when they write out of good memoirs . but i do not blame him for writing out of good memoirs , but for forging false ones . 2. his confidence in putting himself in the class with salustius and tacitus , is another of his insupportable qualities . 3. his spending two pages in repeating over again that for which i had charged him , as if he had read it in a letter of the catholick king 's , does not make any man believe this a whit the better . if he had told where that letter was to be found , what the date of it was , and to whom it was writ ; and if he had given it in the language in which it was writ originally , then this might have had some appearance of a proof : but he had several very weighty reasons , that kept him from doing this ; and he hoped that as downright impudence was the shortest way , so it would be the surest to make him be believed .. 4. he goes on to justify that of henry the sevenths power to alienate the crown of england , by saying , that he was a conquerour , and was the master of the kingdom , as much as william the conquerour was : and so he might dispose of it as he pleased . this is a new theory of mr. varillas's , that one who pretends to be the right heir , and is so happy as to defeat an usurper , is upon that to be accounted a conquerour : for this was the case both of william the conquerour and of henry the seventh : the one pretended a title from edward the confessor , and defeated harold , as the other did derive a title from the house of lancaster , and defeated richard ; but neither the one nor the other pretended that the nation was a conquest , no more than henry the ninth of france did when he broke the league . 5. he says , i needed not tell him that k. henry the seventh chused rather to hold the crown by his marriage with the heir of the house of york , than by his right of conquest . i told him no such thing , for i know it is false ; since for the reasons that i formerly named , he would never consent to hold the crown in his wife 's right . 6. he pretends , that i am banished england , for having been in the design of the exclusion of the present king. all this is equally false : that i was in that design , that i was banished the nation , and that it was on that account : so his sentence set in capitals , is only a more evident discovery that he makes of himself , which he has done indeed in capital letters . xxvi . he had said somewhat to purpose upon the article of p. alexander the sixth , if he had given any sort of proof , that he had refused to grant the dispensation for the marriage . xxvii . if instead of all the relations both printed and manuscripts , which he mentions so indefinitly , he had cited any one printed relation of an author that deserves credit , or any manuscript that may be examined , this had deserved an answer . mr. varillas had not said , as he would have it pais now , that ferdinand only pretended to give his daughter to the duke of calabria , but he had affirmed positively , that he intended it : and yet all the proof he brings for this , is , that there is no inconvenience in thinking , that at some time or other of his life , he might have been touched with the remorse of the injustice he had done the duke of calabria . i am not to examin the state of ferdinands conscience , nor what his secret remorses might be , tho in matters of injustice his was not very tender : but it is a new sort of proof , and well becoming our author , who being called on to make good a thing , which he had positively affirmed , tells us , there is no inconvenience in thinking it true ; but then i see as little inconvenience in thinking otherwise : it was convenient indeed for mr. varillas to have it believed ; but his conveniences do not determin me . xxviii . he pretends that i had denied , that henry the eighths parents thought of marrying him to francis the firsts sister : he tells me , it was ordinary in those days to contract marriages among children , and therefore it was not inconvenient , that the french ambassador should have proposed that marriage . and whereas i had denyed , that the french ambassadors writ relations of their ambassies , he mentions some that writ them . and whereas i had shewed the improbability of a design of the court of france's advancing the count d'angolesmes sister to the crown of england . he tells me , that lewis the twelfth never intended to cut off his cousin francis ' s right of succession ; and that his sister was of a rank fit to be a match to the heir of the crown of england ; and that the duke of lorrain married one , that was many degrees further from the crown than margaret of valois was . and now are not all these good substantial proofs , and as he calls them , discoveries of errors , that are insupportable in me ? i never deny'd that henry the eighth's parents would not think of this ; but i lookt upon the whole thing as a fiction . 2. if it was ordinary in those days to contract children , does that prove that this proposition was ever made ? 3. mr. varillas's new discoverys in logick makes him now a second time , offer to prove a thing , because it was not inconvenient . 4. it is no proof that mr. de piennes writ a relation of his embassy , because some others writ their own memoirs , and this was the thing in question ; so he should have justified that citation . 5. there is a great difference between the not cutting off of francis's succession , and the raising his interest , by giving him so powerful an ally . in short , i denied the fact , and he instead of proving it , tells me , it was not inconvenient , nor a match below henry , which i had never pretended . xxix . he tells mighty things of his performances with relation to england , and says , it is but too well known how it comes that these things appear not in his history . but if what is lost is of apiece with what appears now , the world may wellbear the loss . 2. he denys , that i have cited any passage of his book in which he had raised the power of the parliament above the king 's . tho i told him , that in this very place he had said , that the parliament being careful to maintain the authority which they had over the king , obliged him by repeated remonstrances to marry . 3. but if he has said it , he will make it good : and he tells me , that he will cite two authorities for this , which i dare not contradict : the one is of king iames the first , who in his advice to this son , says , that the parliament of england had not always kept its power within its due limits , but had often enlarged it to the prejudice of the royal authority ; to this he adds another long citation of his , that filled a page indeed , but had not one word to prove a superiority in the parliament to the king : on the contrary , it proves that it was a court assembled by the king for the great affairs of the kingdom : now tho i will not presume to dispute this authority , yet i will take the liberty to tell mr. varillas , that it makes against him ; for if parliaments have sometimes gone beyond their limits , and have carried their power to the prejudice of the kings authority ; then by our laws the parliament is not superiour to the king , but has its limits , and it exceeds those limits when it attempts to raise it self above the kingly power . 4. his second authority is taken from an italian of bologna , and he sets down in capitals his words , whereas ordinary letters served for the citation of king iames's words ; but he thought the one did him not such service as the other , and therefore he bestowed the capitals in gratitude to him , that did him the best service . the writer of bologna indeed does say , that the parliament of england has pretended a great superiority above the king of england . as for this author count majolino bisaccioni , i know nothing of him ; so whether this is one of mr. varillas's inventions or not , i will not determin : but i cannot imagin why this should be such an authority that i dare not dispute it : it is true , the author is of bologna , where men are easily assassinated ; yet i do not think , that this count or his heirs are so spiteful , as to send one to the city of holland , according to mr. varillas's geography , to murder me , if i contradict this authority ; for besides this , i cannot imagin , what should make me not dare to dispute the authority of one of bologna , in a matter relating to the government of england . but after the pains our author has been at to depress the dignity of the kings of england , and the capitals that he has bestowed upon it , i confess he needs no more deny that he pretends to a pension from thence . 5. in conclusion , he cites his florimond , tho he had the confidence to cite on the margin the articles of the parliament 1509. but now he runs to his author ; but tho he has done himself the honour as to say , he is his eccho , yet i never heard of eccho's that repeated more than had been said : some repeat over and over again , but none add : yet mr. varillas , who cited florimond , to prove that the parliament had obliged the king by reiterated remonstrances , to marry the infanta , finds neither these remonstrances nor the parliament in the citation that he gives us out of him : for he says only , that the princes , the lords , the council , and the people of england , approved of it by their consent , and made no opposition to it . xxx . for the kings five children by queen catherine : he brings again florimond , who says , she bore him three sons and two daughters : and as if this had been a solid proof , mr. varillas triumph and says , he does not know upon what principle in arithmetick i reckon , if i deny that 2. and 3. make 5. i think i may allow mr. varillas so much of arithmetick as this essay amounts to , but i will scarce allow him much more of it , or of any thing else . xxxi . he does indeed give an author here , for that which i thought was his own invention : but still it is no other than florimond . i do confess i read him very carelesly : i found sanders was transcribed by him , and that he could not pretend to any good information : but now i see one writer of legends refines upon another ; and as mr. varillas adds some few things of his own store to florimond , so the other had added a great deal to sanders ; but his voucher was an author of so little credit , that i confess i read him so superficially , that finding some strokes in mr. varillas that were new to me , i fancied that he was the author of them ; but now i see he has an author such as he is : for what he says concerning flattery , it is to so little purpose , that i use him kindly in passing over it . xxxii . he cites again florimond , for his garand ; and because he had it seems one of mr. varillas's artifices of citing boldly papers that never were ; and so cites those of cardinal campege , mr. varillas upbraids me with my not having seen them ; but i believe both their citations alike ; i have indeed printed a long letter of that cardinals , writ to the pope , in conjunction with cardinal wolsey , while he was in england , in which he asserts the justice of the kings cause , and presses him to give sentence in his favour ; he assures the pope , that nothing but conscience moved the king in the matter ; and in short , says all that even mr. varillas would have said , if he had been animated with the prospect of a good pension . xxxiii . he says , i contradict my self , in denying that the k. of scotland sought the daughter of henry the eighth , & confessing it afterwards . i denied only , that the father had ever sought it , since he was dead before she was born ; and here mr. varillas has the confidence to deny all that long scheme that he had given of the project that the king of scotland had set on for his son , so that the imposture of suppressing his text with which he charges me , lies on his side , and he leaves out all that he had said of the machines that the king of scotland was managing for his son the prince , who was no other than king iames the fifth , so the king must be king iames the fourth his father : and for that which he says of king iames the fifths going with an army to france , it fell out many years after this : so it could not be the reason that made king henry deny his daughter to the king of scotland , it being long after , even the year 1533. after which time he owns that he does not say , that the king of scotland pretended to her : and whereas he pretends , that he only said , that the scots had pressed the marriage ; that is one of his common practices , to which i will not give the name that it deserves ; for he had expresly named both the king and the prince , who he said asked her with all the submissions that were compatible with the dignity of soveraigns : whereas as the one was dead before she was born , and the other was an infant at that time . his discourse of the design of uniting the whole island into one monarchy , and his taking a start over into spain , is one of his impertinencies , to which he fly's to cover his shame : and the contradiction with which he charges me before he ends this article , is worthy of him : he says , i own that king henry was master of his parliament ; and yet i denied , that his government was tyrannical . i never denied this last ; on the contrary , i have set it out as fully as was necessary : but tho i had denied it , the saying that he was the master of his parliaments , is so far from being a contradiction to that , that it agrees exactly with it . queen elisabeth was always the mistress of her parliaments , tho guilty of no tyranny , and it was because she was not tyrant , but governed well , that she was the mistress both of her peoples hearts and purses , and likewise of her parliaments : so the triumph that he makes upon this contradiction , which he says the most able sophister of europe will not be able to set to rights , turns upon himself . xxxiv . he pretends to justify his impertinence in reckoning the emperour and the king of spain as two of the pretenders to queen mary ; by saying , that charles the fifth was for three years king of spain before he was chosen emperour , and that during all that time , he pretended to her : but tho he cites his florimond here , yet he finds no such thing in him , so that here the eccho does not repeat , but speaks of it self : and as he cannot give the least shadow of proof for this confident assertion of his , so he himself contradicts it in his own words , which he cites afterwards , in which he had said , that the emperour was the second that pretended to this princess : so then he was not only king of spain but already emperour when he began that pretension . all the digression that he makes concerning charles the fifth , is a continued impertinence to hide his shame : the only thing he had to do , was to prove that he began that pretension while he was no more than king of spain . 2. he trys how raillery will do with him , because i had only named arragon and castile , instead of the many other kingdoms that lie within spain : but he is equally sublime both in his ridicule and his serious strains ; for since the conjunction of all these titles rise out of the marriage between arragon and castile , i writ correctly in naming these two only , instead of all the rest that lay in spain . xxxv . our author will still justify what he had said concerning k. henry's rejecting the match with scotland , because the king of scotland had declared himself for france during the last war , in which k. henry had been engaged with francis : now it is to be considered , that all the propositions for queen mary that our author sets forth , fell out before the year 1527 , in which the sute of the divorce was begun ; for after that time none courted her , as he himself confesses ; therefore this war between england and france , in which scotland took part with the latter , and for which the king lost his unkles favour , must be before that time : since then there had been no war between france and england in which scotland took part , after that battel of floddon , in which k. iames the fourth was killed , and after which during the interval between the year 1513. and the year 1527. which is the only time in debate , nor indeed for many years after it ; all this is an ill-laid fiction , which destroys it self ; so what k. iames the fifth might do ten years after the year 1527. cannot be brought to excuse that which had been given for a reason of k. henry's rejecting him before that year . xxxvi . he accuses me for denying in one place that the emperour pretended next , and yet afterwards confessing it : but i only excepted to this because he says , the emperour pretended the second after the k. of scotland ; whereas i shew that the dolphin was the first that pretended , and by the contract for that marriage , which is yet extant , it appears , that his dream of charles's pretending to her while he was yet king of spain , is not only without ground , but is a downright falsehood ; for that contract bears date the ninth of november , 1518. so that during this interval , in which charles was only king of spain , she was promised to another . 2. whereas i had discovered his ignorance of those transactions by this ; that he knew nothing of charles the fifth's coming to england in person , to contract this marriage ; he tells me , that he had writ of this in his history of francis the first , where he had mentioned his coming over from flushing to kent , while k. henry was at calais : but now i tell him plainly , that i see by his citation , that neither before nor now , does he know any thing of the voyage into england , of which i had made mention : for this that he speaks of here was in the year 1520. and the enterview was at dover , and was design'd to hinder the ill effects which the emperour apprehended from the late enterview that had passed between henry and francis , that had carried him over to calais : but that which i spake of was two years after this , in the year 1522. which passed with more magnificence ; for then the emperour was install'd knight of the garter , and contracted to king henry's daughter . xxxvii . concerning card. wolsey , he tells me , that if i have seen some manuscripts that never were in his hands , he has likewise seen those that have escaped me , and he mentions a letter of lewis the twelfths , in which wolsey is so excessively commended , that it is neither sutable to the dignity of him that writ it , nor of him to whom it was writ , therefore he supresses many particulars that are in it . mr. varillas's boasting of the manuscripts that he has seen , is like the chymists boasting of the philosophers stone , which no body believes a whit the more for that . a letter writ by so good a king as lewis the twelfth , would be better received by the world than all that ever mr. varillas can print : yet since he pretends to be so good a courtier , he should have thought it enough to say , that the strain of that letter was below the dignity of him who writ it , without adding any thing else of the dignity of him to whom it was written , since unless it was to the k. of england , there is scarce any other person whose dignity ought to be named as in parallel with that kings . and since wolsey was but just entring upon the ministry , when that king died , it is not probable that he fell into raptures upon that subject ; but mr. varillas takes more care of lewis the twelfths honour in not printing it , than he does of his own . the rest of this article is in citations drawn out of florimond and out of another much worse author , who is mr. varillas himself . xxxviii . i had printed some original letters to discover his mistake concerning wolsey , and he in opposition to that cites what his florimond had said eighty years before him ; as if a falshood by a prescription of 80. years , could become true : he adds , that the proof that i had given to the contrary it not convincing . the point in question , is , whether cardinal wolsey knew of the king's design to marry anne bullen : now i had printed two of her letters to the cardinal , in one of which there is a postscript writ by king henry's hand , that speaks plainly of the thing , & they were both written while card. campege was on his journey : any man besides mr. varillas would think this is a convincing proof ; and whereas i had accused him for citing on the margin charles the fifth's letter to wolsey ; he justifies this out of florimond : if he had cited these as from him , i confess this would have justified him ; but since he cited them without any such qualification , he shews us how little credit is due to his quotations . i had called charles the fifths coming to england in person , the most important circumstance in all this affair ; and this he , according to his ordinary sincerity , turns , as if i had said , that the secret of the reformation consisted in that voyage . i was speaking of the pretenders to king henry's daughter , and had not so much as the reformation in view ; so the affair upon which i was , being the disposal of queen mary , had reason to say , that the most important circumstance of it was the emperours coming in person , and contracting himself to her . the raillery that follows here , is another proof that mr. varillas is equally happy both in iest and earnest . if i were to make my court to the spaniards , i must be as ignorant as mr. varillas is , if i think to do it effectually , by representing charles the fifth , as having advanced the reformation . xxxix . he meets me here again with another long citation of florimond , which always goes for nothing with me . after which he says somewhat himself , that is next to nothing . i had told him , that the new treaty that king francis had made with henry for his daughter , in an alternative between francis and his second son , was somewhat extraordinary : and if he had known it , it would have furnished him matter for his embelishments . but to all this he says , he could not imagin how francis , that was engaged by the treaty of madrid , to marry charles the fifths sister , could court the princess of england for himself , or his second son ; since he was a prince that valued himself extreamly on the keeping of his word . but the treaty of madrid was so ill executed by francis , that there is no part of his life to which his exactness to his word ought to be less applied than to this : yet in this he might have observed both treatys ; for since the match with england was agreed in an alternative between him and his son , it being left to himself to declare which of them should have her ; it was easy for him to observe both these treatys , by declaring that the duke of orleans should marry henry's daughter : and here our author shews his judgment in setting such conjectures as his are , against matters so authentically proved as this is . xl. a new justification from florimond comes here again , with this preface , that if he is deceived , it is after florimond : but whose fault it is that he believed him , and copied him , notwithstanding all the noise he makes with his manuscripts ? he adds two of my expressions , and fancies that there is a contradiction in them : that in this he differs from sanders , tho he copies him ordinarly ; for he says , if he invents matters , he does not copy him ; and if he copies him , he does not invent . but may he not copy sanders for the greatest part , and yet now and then invent a little without any contradiction ? there is a terrible charge against me in the conclusion of this article . in my english by a fault of the printer , the year 1529. was put instead of the year 1524. and was marked in the errata : now the translator went on with the error that he found in my book , and so the year 29. being wrong put , he triumps : but since he pretends to answer me , he ought to have examined my english , and to have compared the errata . so his accusing me of impudence falls back on himself . xli . all that he says to this article is , that he had writ it after florimond ; and to prove this , he gives me a citation of fix pages and a half long out of him . and is not this an unanswerable thing , that deserves well to be set in opposition to original papers ? xlii . here comes florimond again ; but because i had mentioned the pictures of anne bullen , which shew that what was said of her person , was false : he tells me , that painters and poets have always taken liberties : and because his good judgment made him fancy , that this wanted a proof , he gives me two storys to make it good . but after all , a painter is as well to be believed as a poet at any time : so i may set hans holben , that was a very good painter , against two such ill poets as florimond and mr. varillas ; the first saw her , and the others only heard of her ; so they copied , whereas he drew to the life . xliii . here again comes florimond as his garend for four pages : and he thought it was necessary to produce him , since here , as almost every where else , i accuse him of a want of sincerity ; but i will never give over this accusation , till he produce those manuscripts , out of which he pretends to have drawn his history . xliv . after i had refuted sanders , he tells me , this does not touch him , who had not made use of him : but if florimond does in these lines copy sanders , then by refuting him , i refute all that copy from him , whether it be at first or second hand . mr. varillas's saying , that cardinal pool is the writer of all the catholicks that has blackned henry the least , shews how carelesly he has read him , or how boldly he cites him ; pool compares henry to the wickedest princes in history , and makes a war against him to be more meritorious than against infidels . i had said , that the calumnies , by which anne bullen was defamed not being objected to her , , upon her fall , this shews , that they were not thought on in that age : to this he answers , that this shews the moderation of the catholicks ; but the not mentioning such things in history , had been a vicious moderation , and indeed their writers of that age , were as seldom guilty of any excess on that hand , as he himself is in this . he says also , that it was needless to speak of the former scandals of her life , after she was convicted to adultery and incest with her own brother . but when both she and her brother died , denying this , and that it was generally thought she suffered injustly , then former scandals should have been alledged to make the justice of her sentence appear the more evidently , therefore the silence of the writers of that time , and upon that occasion , is still a good negative argument : but he turns this matter upon me with some shew of reason , and says , that since none writ a justification of anne bullen , neither then nor afterwards , this is a just prejudice against her . but the unfortunate have seldom pens imployed for their honour : and in queen elisabeth's time it was thought below the dignity of the daughter , to examin too critically all the reports that malicious writers had set on foot against the mother . for if any impudent man would question the birth and descent of a crowned head , severer tools than refutations are thought the properest ways of answering them . he then tells me , why should i be believed more than the catholick writers ? but i ask not to be believed on my own word ; but i have shewed the impossibility of the story that sanders and our author from him , at second hand , had contrived of anne bullen ; for what is impossible , can never be true , by my logick ; but our author shews how little he ought to be believed upon his word ; for i having given for a proof of anne bullens good reputation , this , that she served claude , queen of france , which he had set down truly in one page , but in the very next page being to repeat and examin this , he turns it as if i had made her serving lewis the twelfths second queen a proof of her vertue . i knew the vertues of queen claude were as sublime as the others were questioned : therefore i had made her serving the one as an evidence of the good esteem in which she was ; and this he would turn aside in a way very lime himself : and wheras he had mentioned english authors , in the plural , and had set only sanders on the margin , i had reason to ask if he could make a plural out of him , as he had done out of charles the fifth ; he tells me , he had cited florimond de raimond ; but i do not yet find another , to justify the plural of the english ; for whatever title the king of england may have to guienne , so that florimond may be reckoned in some sort among his subjects , yet all this does not put him among the english authors ; so the sanders is still all that we have for the plural ; and all the histories that have appeared since his time by the writers of that communion , are nothing but he over and over again in different languages , and a little differently drest . xlv . he had cited a petition to p. clement the 7. for which i had accused him of forgery , and had told him , that he shewed his ignorance since , tho the matter for which he invented it , is mentioned by card. pool , yet he was not so well informed as to cite him ; now he alledges florimond as his garand for that citation , whose authority is of so little credit ; and yet he has the confidence to think , that was a more formal proof than if he had cited cardinal pool : as if an author that writ 80. years after those matters , were to be put in competition with cardinal pool , who lived and writ in that time : he tells me he had cardinaal pools book before his eyes while he was writing ; but by this way of writing it seems he did not open him ; and his lying shut before him , could not inform him much when a petition was cited and brought in question : no body besides mr. varillas would have called the citing of an author that lived about 80. year after the going to the source for it . xlvi . he gives me a notable proof of the credit due to florimond in the matters relating to the bishop of tarbes : because he had greatengagements with that bishops heirs , so that it is very probable that they communicated to him that prelate's papers . and are not these very convincing proofs ? sometines a thing is to be believed because it is not inconvenient ; at another time because it is probable : but when he comes to answer the reason i had given to demonstrate all this story to be false , which was , that it is not to be imagined , that when that bishop came to end the marriage of his masters son with the heir of the crowen of england , that he i say could have been prevailed on to let that go and to set on a new negotiation for henry's marrying francis's sister . he sayes , that wolsey cheated the bishop , and made him believe that the other marriage was sure : notwithstanding this new proposition . this is to make him resolve to accept the marriage of one that was to be declared a bastard by the divorce : and yet he act knowledged before , that the king of scotland would never ask her after that : but now he makes an ambassadour of france lesse sensible of this point of honour , and content to have both these marriages made at once . but besides all this , the great advantage of marrying the daughter of england , was because she was the heir of the crown , so then if the bishop of tarbes would have concurred to help the king to another marriage , by which that succession might have been cut off from mary , we must conclude him to be as fit a man for negotiations as mr. varillas is for histories or panegyricks : but he must be pardoned ; if he cannot alwayes carry up his fictions to a probability . all that he adds of the general powers given to ambassadours , upon which they depart sometimes from all their instructions , and act contrary to them , has nothing to do here in a matter of such vast consequence especially when a few dayes delay , could have procured him positive instructions upon any new propositions that might be made him . xlvii . i had cited his words concerning cardinal wolsey exactly , and he repeats my quotation wrong , that he might give himself a colour to reproach me . then he gives me a long citation out of florimond , and sends his reader back to another that is much longer , and so he thinks all is well proved . xlviii . he argues against a positive instrument , and thinks , that some of the probabilities that he offers , and florimond's testimony , ought to overthrow the plain proof of a matter of fact. xlix . he opposes to what i had said concerning sr. thomas wiat , his constant voucher florimond , and then he runs out in his way to argue upon this foundation of the truth of that testimony . but instead of pursuing him in such trifling stuff , i will here add a more importance discovery of the falsehood of all this matter by an original paper , which fell into my hands since i writ my history , but was not in my power when i writ my reflections on mr. varillas , yet it comes in here properly enough . it is a long account that sr. thomas wiats son writ of that matter as soon as sander's book appeared . he says , it was never so much as spoken of before that time : that his father was squire of the body to king henry , all the while that that marriage with anne bullen lasted , and for many years after , and yet neither did he in discretion retire out of the court , nor did the king seem jealous , nor the queen offended at him : and he shews further the improbability of the fiction ; for upon her fall it was very probable that as queen catherine howards ill life , as well before , as after her marriage , was examined , when she was condemned , so the like method would have been observed towards anne bullen , if there had been any room for it ; and as to anne bullen , he says , that her tryal was managed secretly in the tower : and that the evidence upon which it was pretended that she was condemned , was kept so secret among the peers that tried her , that it was never certainly known : some of the lords confessed afterwards , that her defence had cleared her entirely : and to all this he adds one remarkable particular , that there was none of all her ladies brought to swear any thing against her ; now it is certain , that no queen , especially in such a court as that of england was then , the household being the greatest in christendom , could be guilty of so many disorders as were laid to her charge , without taking some woman into the confidence , and yet none were either accused of it , or brought to witness it . he adds , that his father was afterwards ambassadour , for several years , in charles the fifth's court , where he conceived that aversion to the spaniards and to their councils , that this threw him into the rebellion that he raised against queen mary , when she was treating about the spanish match : for i must here warn the reader , that mr. varillas transforms this wiat into haviet , and makes a long story of him elsewhere . in conclusion , a man must be as ignorant of our affairs as mr. varillas is , not to know that a privy councillor thinks an ambassy no disgrace , but on the contrary , a preferment to him ; and those who know that by the forms of our court , no officer has a more free and frequent access to the king's person , than the squire of the body , tho he is but one of the second rank in the household , will see how ridiculous a contrivance all this story is , of wiats having corrupted anna bullen , and his revealing it to the privy council , and their imploying the duke of suffolk to acquaint the king with it , who was so far from believing it , that he would not accept the conviction that wiat offered to his own eye sight ; but on the contrary , disgraced him for it . l. here is a new long citation of his garand ; but at the end of it our author seems not to comprehend how more could be for the divorce , without being for the schism ; and thinks the distinction is a little too metaphisical : but the difficulty of apprehending this must lie in mr. varillas's dulness ; since there is nothing easier to be understood , than that more thought there was just reason to move the pope to annul a marriage , that had been made by vertue of a papal bull : and yet tho more would have approved of the divorce if it had been obtained in that manner ; he did not like k. henry's doing it by the authority of his own clergy , and his separating from the court of rome upon it . more 's works make a huge thick volum in folio , and were printed in queen mary's time by her positive order : nd so great a book , while printing was yet so low as it was then in england , could not be so easily carried thro the press , without some particular assistance from the court. all that understand english will see that i have cited his letters true , and mr. varillas's reasons against this is arguing against a plain matter of fact , which can make no impression upon any mans spirit , unless it be to shew the impertinence of him that undertakes it . after this there comes another impertinence of a citation of five pages out of florimond . li. before i examin what he says concerning cajetan , i will state the matter in short : he had given a long abstract of reasons , which he had pretended to have drawn out of cajetan's consultation , that had no appearance of truth in them , such as that of the blocking up of constantinople , the avoiding to mary in houses , suspect of heresy , with several other follys . i upon that concluded this must be as true as his other quotations were ; so i searcht for cajetans works , not having then by me those extracts that i had made , when i writ my history . i found only at first his great work on aquinas's summs , of which i made mention in my appendix ; but having after that found the consultation it self , set down by raynoldus , i desired the learned author of the nouvelles of the common-wealth of learning , to give notice in the moneth of april , that i owned my mistake : but it was added in that advertisement , that i had as much reason as ever to say , that mr. varilas had not cited it as he ought to have done : upon which he in his ordinary method of sincerity says , that i had retracted all , and passed a condemnation upon my self , for all that i had said concerning cajetan . if i were disposed to be angry , or to use foul language , here is a just enough provocation on his part ; but i do here repeat what i had said , that the whole abstract that he had given of that consultation in his history , is false in every one of the reasons , upon which he pretends , that cajetan founded his conclusion . the only thing that looks like an approach to truth , is yet far from it ; for he had said , that cajetan laid down this for a ground , that the high priest under the old testament could dispence with such a degree of marriage , and by consequence , that the high priest under the new testament must have the like authority . now there is not a word of this in cajetan , who knew too well that it was not the high priest , but the express letter of the law , that allowed of such a marriage under the old testament : so that cajetan did not argue with relation to this particular case , but he argued upon the general topick , that as under the old testament all hard matters were to be referred to the high priest's decision , so the like ought also to be admitted under the new. now a man must be dull to mr. varillas's degree , not to see the difference that is between these two things . and as for all the other particulars that he had given as the abstract of cajetan's consultation , there is not one word of one of them to be found in it . he argues against that which in my history i prove , that the pope ordered campana to say to the king , by telling me , that if it is true , the pope was the worst politican that ever was , since he was then so much in the emperour's power . but the politick was not so bad as mr. varillas fancies , since campana's words , tho he carried a credence with him , might have been easily disowned . yet if this were not the case , must a plain proof be laid aside , because then the pope was an ill politican ? no body besides mr. varillas would argue in this manner . his reasoning in what follows against positive proofs , is all of a piece ; but because my garand for this is not in an author like florimond , but in a letter writ by cassali an italian , who was at that time the king's ambassadour in rome , and these words he uses , are of great consequence i shall here set them down in latin , the language in which they were writ , it bears date at orvieto the 13. of ianuary . it is in the cotton library under vitellius b. 10. heri & hodie ad multum diem sum allocutus sanctum dominum nostrum de mittendo legato : insequens ordinem à reverendissimo domino eborac : suis literis 27. decemb. mihi praescriptum . pontifex ostendit se cupidissimum satisfaciendi regiae excellentiae , cui omnia se debere fatetur : & tum habuit mecum longum de hac re colloquium , ut inveniatur modus omnia bene , firme , & secure faciendi : quo facto & tueri possit . ideoque consulere voluit judicium card. sanctorum quatuor & simonetae qui excellentior & doctior auditor rotaeest : cum quibus sub sigillo confessionis egit , ut ex eorum consilio inveniatur modus ad moram tollendam , & causam secure peragendam . atque ita pontifex cum illis in hoc quod sequitur se revolvit ; videturque optimus verus & securus modus : & me rogavit ut nullo pacto dicam : hoc obtinuisse ab ejus sanctitate sicut revera obtinui : nam caesariani eum statim pro suspecto alligarent , sed quod dicam me habuisse à cardinali sanctorum quatuor & à dicto auditore . dicunt quod rex deberet committere illic causam cardinali , ratione commissionis quam attulit secretarius vel propria authoritate legationis quod facere potest : & ubi causa fuerit commissa , si rex conscientiam suam persentiat coram deo exoneratam , & quod recte possit facere quod quaerit , quia nullus doctor in mundo est qui de hac re melius discernere possit quam ipse rex . itaque si in hoc se resolverit ut pontifex credit , statim causam committat , aliam uxorem ducat , litem sequatur mittatur publice pro legato qui consistorialiter mittetur . now i think i have given him a citation in latin , that is a little more to the purpose than that he gave me out of cajetan : and let him argue against this as long as he will. he will needs justify what he had said of the blocking up of constantinople , and tells me , that pope pius the second projected it : but he had cited this out of cajetan , and i tell him positively it is not in his consultation : so he is an impostor still , tho this may have been projected at some other time . i do not think it worth the while to examin pius the seconds project for ruining the turkish empire : but i am sure , it is not in p. leo the tenths , which was made nearer this time , tho that has so many impracticable things in it , that this might have well enough accompanied the rest ; i had also said , that the princes of that time had not fleets of men of war ; and he tells me of some fleets that the republick of venice had : but tho their doge is called the prince , yet nobody reckons that state among princes . yet here he has got an occasion to digress , and to talk of the fleets of the ventians , which he does with so little judgment as to tell us of three stately fleets that perished in the design of seising the town of ferrara , and another stately fleet appeared on the lake benaccio , and made it inaccessible to all other vessels , except those of the republick . but sure mr. varillas intends to bring the scorn of all the world upon himself , since he talks of gallant fleets to come up the po , or to go upon the lago di guarda : and i would gladly know by what machines the republick conveyed their fleet into that lake . it is almost a shame to answer a man that writes at this rate . the other two particulars , concerning the peace of italy , and the keeping henry from marrying into families suspect of heresy , are also falsely cited out of cajetan ; but he does not say a word to justify , are also falsely cited out of cajetan ; but he does not say a word to justify this , and does not so much as give a shaddow of a proof that pope iulius designed to settle the peace of italy , but much to the contrary ; for that of hindring k. henry from marrying into houses suspected of heresy , he says , it is the part in which i treat him with the greatest injustice , and for which he has the justest occasion to complain of me : and yet after all , he confesses it is wrong , and lays the blame of it on his compositor , so that he would make it only an error of the press ; but yet this is so expressed , that it seems there is some other thing under it , and what ever may be in it i vehemently suspect that there is no truth at all in it , and i am neither bound to know how matters go between his compositor & him , nor to believe so unlikely a thing , as that the put heresie instead of those who were suspect to the holy see. he says , his weak sight makes him correct the proofs by the eyes of another : but if he imployed his ears , he might have corrected this , without straining his sight : in short , it had been good for the age , that both his sight and his hearing had failed him long ago , for then the world had not been troubled with such a set of impostures as he has given it . he has much more material faults to answer for than the putting squadrons for bataillions for which he makes such an excuse . lii . beauvais for belcaire is a fault of the impression in the french , and in my english it is belcaire : he sets up here again his probabilities against the positive proofs that are among the acts which i have printed that shew the truth of this concerning a bull of dissolving the marriage that was sent over by cardinal campege ; but all this is already shewed to be so ridiculous , that i will say no more of that subject . liii . he makes me guilty of a contradiction tradiction for saying , that he adds no new matters of fact to those mentioned by sanders ; and yet adding , that he had invented somewhat : but this was only a circumstance of the time , when the queen went out of the court ; so this is not to be reckoned among the matters of fact : yet after all , he shews me indeed , that florimond had said this , which i had believed was an effect of his own invention ; so that i find i judged too well of his invention , in ascribing to him those romantick tours that he gave matters : for i find he had these furnished him by another : this is all that he does in the 54. article ; for after a dull saying over and over again , that he was not guilty of those things for which i had charged him , he again justifies himself by his florimond . liv. and this is all he says likewise upon the next article , only because i had shewed him that the queens cause could not be pleaded by her advocates , after she had declined the court , this being so universal a rule , that is founded on so clear a principle , that i had thought even mr. varillas could not be ignorant of it ; that when one declines a court , he can no more plead before it , since by pleading before it he passes from his declinator ; he , after he has shewed that he took this from florimond , concludes in those dreadful words , dare i doubt , that this author did not know the forms of courts , since he was so long a councellor in a parliament , where this practice is followed with as much regularity as in any place in the world ? but i am not so soon frighted as mr. varillas fancies : for i dare do any thing that i think fit to be done : and i do not see what should appear in this , that is so terrible ; for tho i were in the hands of that parliament , i do not believe they would use me ill , for saying , that one of their body writ once impertinently concerning the forms of proceeding : but i dare not only doubt of this , but because of this i dare doubt yet much more than i did , concerning the author of this book ; and if it is not likely that a councellour of parliament could be guilty of such a mistake , which i confess i think he could hardly commit unless he was as ignorant as mr. varillas is , then this makes it more probable , that he was not the author of that book , but that f. richeome writ it , and published it in florimond's name ; for a mistake in a point of form might be justly enough supposed in the one , without any great derogation to him , but not in the other . lvi . upon the 56. article there is nothing but two short citations out of florimond . lvii . he cites again the same voucher : and because he thought it would be a little offensive to me , he runs out in an invective against king henry , in which i am no way concerned , having writ of him with all the freedom that became a sincere historian : yet in one thing i must tell mr. varillas , that his heat carries him a little too far , when he says , that for four hundred years , there had been no prince who had put to death more of his subjects than he had done , when there was neither war nor rebellion in the case . i have examined in my reflections on his second volum , a long list he had given , of all that king henry had put to death , and have shewed him , that there is not one article of all the ten that he gives , that is either ture , or so much as near truth : and that those who suffered upon the account of his supremacy , and that were not either in actual rebellion , or in conspiracies for raising one , were not above twelve persons : and i believe it is possible to find out princes within muchless than four hundred years , that have put more of their subjects to death , upon the account of religion . lviii . he gives no other justification of all he had said to blacken cranmer , but his constant voucher florimond : and yet he appeals to the publick upon this : and thinks the quotation he brings is an entire iustification : but whether he or i knew cranmer's character better , and gives it truer , will be no hard point to decide : he never saw any thing concerning him , but florimond's history : and i have perused many volums writ with his own hand , besides a vast number of letters , that were writ by him , and to him : yet as for cranmer's being made the king 's chieff minister , florimond says not a word of that , so that mr. varillas , who had asserted it , does not find an entire iustification in his florimond . lix . mr. varillas , who is ignorant of every thing , cannot bear the least imputation of ignorance ; for commonly men are tender when they know their own defects : and tho it had been no heinous matter , if he had been thought a little unacquainted with the laws of england ; for i have discovered his ignorance in other things that are less pardonable ; yet he is so uneasy at this , that he cannot bear my saying , that such matters were above men of his form : and upon that he says , he does not know whether he or i has studied the law most : and no more do i : but i am sure , if he was long at that study , he has spent both his time and his money to very little purpose : and if he is no better lawyer than he is historian , i doubt he will hardly ever recover the money that he laid out on that study . i assure him , i will not compare with him in any thing ; and i do not know a greater injury that can be done me in such matters , than to be put into a comparison with him . but to convince his reader of his learning in our law , he gives us another long quotation out of florimond , which is all the rest of this article . lx. he justifies his saying , that audley the chancellour was meanly born : he cites an author that had mentioned the mean-birth of a chancellour ; and says , this was necessary for the history , to shew what a sort of men king henry imployed ; but what needs all this ? i had only said , that the raising a man of a mean-birth to that post , ought not to be taken notice of , as a very extraordinary thing , since it is very ordinary to see men of the profession of law raised upon their merit to that dignity . if he had been to write that audley's life , i acknowledge he must have mentioned his birth , but since his hero chancellour more was of no better extraction , i am not yet convinced of the importance of this reflection ; and mr. varillas will do wisely for himself not to examin too anxiously the birth of the chancellours of europe , for this last age : but in conclusion , a quotation of florimond's comes to set all right : yet even in it , audley is not said to be a churchman ; so here the eccho did not repeat , but speak . lxi . here again , florimond is brought out , with the honorable character that mr. varillas assumes , of being his eccho , which must pass for one of his sublime strains . but here i must explain one part of my book ; for some have mistaken my reflections in one point , as if at every time , that i speak of mr. varillas's religion , i had meant of the religion of the church of rome ; but they do me wrong ; for i mean it only of his religion in particular , according to the notion that he gives us of it , that it enslaves a mans powers so far as to hinder him from examining whether what he writes is true or false . all the rest of his article is a sequel of such impertinences , that i grow weary to examin them , as well as the character that he gives his florimond , as an author that is worthy of credit , against whom the english have never excepted . but if they have always excepted against sanders , who is copied by him , than there is no reason to expect that we should have any regard to him . his excuse for his turning the affairs of amours so ill , is like himself ; this it seems went to his heart ; for tho i have destroyed his credit as a writer of history , yet there is some comfort left , if he may be still considered at least a good author of romances . lxii . he thinks , it is the chief of all the qualities necessary for the writing of history , to be able to describe the intriques of great men in the matters of amour ; and it he has not that , as he reproaches me for denying it to him , since i had allowed him all the good qualities of a historian , except that of truth , those who praise his works chiefly in this point , are much deceived : and then he justifies himself with a quotation out of florimond . i will not dispute much with him whether the quality of setting forth amours , is the principal one of a historian : tho i do not deny but in a reign of much dissolution , this is necessary : but i will add , that this is the hardest to be found out unless one has lived in the time ; for those are matters in which , as it is easy to slander , so the only persons who know those secrets , are very shye of writing them , and are generally men of pleasure themselves , and not much given to writing . i have already satisfied mr. varillas by my retracting the praises that i had undeservedly given him : but i find he would let that of truth go , and would compound the matter , if he might but have the other qualities allowed him : but now i am worse-natured , and will allow none of them to him : and i as little believe what he says of the praises that some give his works , on that account , as i do his other quotations . after this he calls me the rashest of all men ; this from any man but him , would have put me in some disorder ; but i know his way of writing now too well , to be alarmed at any thing he can say . one should have thought that i had robbed churches , or coined money , or done some very hardy thing , to deserve to be called the rashest of all men ; but all is safe : for my only crime is , that i had denied an assertion of his so modestly as only to say , i had never found it in any author ; upon which he pretends to infer , that to justify this , i must say two things ; the one , that i have read all books , whether printed or manuscripts ; the other is , that i have forgot nothing of that which i have read : which two things , says he , very gravely , are not found in any one man without a miracle . tho i should have thought , that neither the one nor the other could be found in any man without a miracle : and now is it not evidently made out , that i am the rashest of all men ? lxiii . here again comes the often named voucher ; and after that comes another piece of our authors reasoning : i had shewed him , that king henry , when he pretended to obtain his divorce , had argued upon the principle of tradition , which is so much considered in the church of rome ; and that it had been made out , that the tradition of the whole church all down to cajetans time , was clearly of the king's side : since the degrees of marriage prohibited in leviticus , had been considered in all the ages of the church as moral and indispensable laws : so i had added , that according to the principles of the church of rome , his marriage with his brothers wife was unlawful : he reproaches me for this , since i am of a religion that rejects tradition absolutely . but still it made the kings cause good against that church , which makes tradition the only sure expounder of scripture : for if the tradition was here of the king's side , then all cajetans reasoning against it , was no more to be considered than according to themselves luther's and calvin's ought to have been : besides , we of the reformed religion do not so absolutely reject all tradition , as not to accept of it according to the famous expression of vincent of lerins , when the tradition is universal in all times and in all places . lxiv . he pretends to justify cardinal de bellay's words concerning the zealous catholicks , as if by the zealous were to be understood the false zealots . but this same expression , without any such qualification , returns so often in his third and fourth tomes , always indeed when he had occasion to speak of the rebels in england , that i have reason to believe , that he adds this of false zealots now , because he dares not say otherwise , when he is forced to explain himself ; but his hardiness in denying that the sorbon in the time of the league , or that cardinal perron in his harangue to the third estate , did own that doctrine of deposing heretical princes , is no surprise to me , since it comes from him ; for i can assure him , that i am past the being amased at his ignorance , or his confidence , either in asserting or denying . if any protestants have failed in their duty of their princes , it was not an effect of their religion , as it is in the church of romes ; it being decreed by a general council , that popes may depose heretical princes , and absolve their subjects from their allegeance . so that papists when they rebel , act as good papists : whereas protestants that rebel , act against their principles , and as bad protestants . lxv . mr. varillas appeals to all those , who do him the honour to read this book . it is certain , that those who read it , do him more honour , than they do themselves . he says here , that two years had passed after king henry's marriage with anne bullen , when the cardinal de bellay was in england ; whereas it is clear , that only one year had passed ; for she was married the 14. of november 1532. and the cardinal de bellay came to london in november 1533. but so small a fault as two years for one , is inconsiderable : and tho he had himself in his history said , that she was married the 22. of november 1532. yet now , when a turn was to be served by a bold denial , he was more hardy , than to stick either at contradicting himself , or me ; but tho he will perhaps be easily reconciled to himself , yet i am not so ready to forgive such faults . he accuses me for having said , that the pope had sent a formal assurance to the king , that he would judge in his favour . i cited for this in my history an original letter of the archbishop of york's , and of tonstal bishop of duresm , that affirm positively , that the pope had promised , that he would judge for the king against the queen , if he would but send a proxy to rome , because he knew his cause was good & just : this and f. paul's history of the council of trent , are two such authorities , that i will forgive him every thing that he advances on such grounds . he ends this article with his ordinary stile of boasting his having read all the original letters of cardinal de bellay , that are in mr. de la moignon's hands ; and i believe this as i do the rest of what the affirms . lxvi . he denies he had said that for which i had cited him concerning the passages into italy being stopt by the emperour's garrisons , and he hoped his readers would believe him , when they saw a quotation of almost a page out of him , in which that is not to be found ; but he just begins his quotation , at the words that follow a whole page that he had spent upon that for which i had cited him . this is a confidence in disingenuity , that never man that i know of , assumed before himself , and i beg the readers to turn his book here , and examin this : for by this one essay they may judge of his sincerity . it is in the 287. page of the edition of amsterdam ; he begins to cite the last words of the page , and passes over the half of a page that went before ; because it contained that which i had mentioned , and which he here denies , and says , he never thought it ; and upon this single point , i desire that his sincerity may be measured . the comparing his history and my reflections , and his answer in this particular , will be no great trouble , and i promise my self , that most readers will be so complaisant as to grant me this favour ; for i cannot bring my self to submit to the labour of copying out so much impertinence . lxvii . he had set down queen catherine's death , after the session of parliament : so i reckoned that he intended to make his reader believe , that she died immediatly after : now he owns , that as i had accused him , it was two year after the parliament before the queen died , and he fancies to save all this , because he had begun a linea ; but i am not bound to guess that a linea in his stile stands for two years : all historians carry on the series of time in their narrations ; or if some remarkable circumstances makes them at any time break it , they warn their reader of it : and if warning is not given , a reader naturally reckons , that the series goes on , and that it is not discontinued by every a linea . but he neglects the main point of this article , which is , the false date that he gives with his usual confidence to that famous session of parliament , that enacted the breach between england and the see of rome . lxviii . he cites a whole page out of his own history ; for he is here his own eccho : and tho every tittle of it is false , he concludes it in these word , is there any thing here that deserves the least censure ? but is there any censure so severe , as that he gives not here so much as his florimond for his garand ? so here again the eccho speaks . i had said , that it is certain , king henry pretended not to have seen any thing that could any way disgrace anne bullen : and he fancied i had said , that he had owned this ; upon which he protests , that he neither thought it , said it , nor writ it ; and that it could not be found in any page of his books . but i can assure him , when i say , it is certain , i never think of him : for his authority and certainty are the two things in the world , that are the most opposite to one another in my thoughts . i had denied that any thing had appeared in the tilting at greenwich : but to prove the contrary of this , he gives me two arguments that are equally strong : the one is , that once at naples something like this fell , out , and the other is florimond's authority ; and if i will not believe these two , he leaves me to my incredulity . lxix . he says , i shew a very good opinion of my self , if i expect to be believed in this point , whether anne bullens father was one of her iudges , against all other writers . no , it is only that i have a good opinion of my eye-sight , and that , having seen the original record , and marked the place where any body else may see for it , i expect to be believed beyond those who write only upon hear-say : and when our author gives such marks of sincerity in his quotations , as i have done in mine ; then if i question his papers , he may use the right of reprisal upon me ; but this is the case between us . lxx . he tells me the use of the term stoical is now altered in france ; if it is so , i was not bound to know that : but this ought not to come into so high a reckoning . the term stoical is understood to be affected to that philosophy , whose character was an insensibility and a constant equality of temper ; so i had reason to say , this was ill applied to anne bullen . the little he says after this , is so slight , that i cannot dwell upon it : every reader will see , that he had a brow of a peculiar composition , that could say , that i had added nothing in those articles that are in my appendix ; and that i had only repeated those things that i had already said in my reflections : and because he knew he could answer no part of it , he thought the more dextrous way of avoiding to do it , was to send his reader back to the former parts of the book : hoping no doubt that they would not be at that pains , and so he fancied he had very artificially put all that by him ; but as my appendix contains not any one thing that was in the former part of my book , so he had not answered any one tittle in it in those parts to which he sends his reader ; yet if he does not answer that which i had said , he makes me say that , which i had not said concerning cajetan , as appears by the words which are upon the first page , of the nouvelles of the common-wealth of learning for the month of april . and now mr. varillas sees , that those great affairs , that as he tells me , are upon my hands , have not hindred me from dispatching so small a one as his is . neither this , nor the continuation of my reflections on his second volum , could hold me long . i should have had both many scruples and much uneasiness upon me , if this had required much of my time ; but i have prevailed with my self to bestow a week on each of them . if it were a matter of any importance on which i had writ , i should have thought , that the owning the hast in which it was writ , was a disparaging of it : but since it was imploy'd in so mean and so easy a performance , i think it is a justification of my self to confess the speed i made in it . it will perhaps be a little longer a digesting to mr. varillas , than it was a preparing to me . one proof will quickly appear whether the world is so satisfied with his answer , as upon that to return to any tolerable thoughts of his history ; for i have been informed from england , that a gentleman , who is famous both for poetry and several other things , had spent three moneths in translating mr. varillas's history , but that as soon as my reflections appeared , he discontinued his labour , finding the credit of his author was gone : now if he thinks it is recovered by his answer , he will perhaps go on with his translation : and this may be , for ought i know , as good an entertainment for him as the conversation that he had set on between the hinds and the panthers , and all the rest of the animals ; for whom mr. varillas may serve well enough as an author ; and this history and that poem are such extraordinary things of their kind , that it will be but suteable to see the author of the worst poem , become likewise the translator of the worst history , that the age has produced . if his grace and his wit improve both proportionably , we will hardly find that he has gained much by the change he has made , from having no religion to choose one of the worst . it is true , he had somewhat to sink from , in the matter of wit , but as for his morals , it is scarce possible for him to grow a worse man than he was . he has lately wreaked his malice on me for spoiling his three moneths labour ; but in it he has done me all the the honour that any man can receive from him , which is to be railed at by him . if i had ill nature enough to prompt me to wish a very bad wish for him , it should be , that he would go on and finish his translation : by that it will appear , whether the english nation , which is the most competent judge in this matter , has upon the seeing our debate , pronounced in mr. varillas's favour , or in mine . it is true , m. d. will suffer a little by it , but at least it will serve to keep him in from other extravagancies : and if he gains little honour by this work , yet he cannot lose so much by it as he has done by his last imployment . postscript . i have perhaps said already more than enough for laying open those histories that have appeared hitherto with so much pomp : and that have been received much more favourably than they deserved . it is perhaps a little too cruel in me , to pursue mr. varillas so closely , when he has drawn the indignation of all the world upon himself . mr. hosier was not satisfied to call him an impostor , and an author of romances , in a private letter to a friend , but was willing to let this be published , that all the world might likewise know it : and mr. larroque has laid open his errors and impostures so copiously , that he has at the same time discovered his own learning and exactness , as well as the ignorance and the falsehoods of mr. varillas , in which he has shewed himself to be the worthy son of so great a father , and has given such an essay of what may be expected from him upon greater occasions , that the world will long for more of the production of such a pen. but because mr. varillas intends to treat all nations , and all illustrious families alike ill , and to shew that he is equally ignorant and bold with them all : i will only add here one part of the remarks that those learned persons who publish the abstracts of books in leipsig have made on him , in the account of the moneth of october , 1686. in which after they have shewed , that he writes almost all names false ; that he confounds the order of time , and the persons concerning whom he writes ; that he does not know the map of germany , nor the situation of towns , or the division of the circles , nor the interests in which the princes of germany were at that time ; that he contradicts in one part of his book what he had said in another ; that he sets down the reformation of leipsig 18. years before it was done ; he who was their prince all that while , having been so noted an enemy to that work ; that the whole relation he gives of fronsberg , is false in all the parts of it , as well in the character of the man , as in his actions , and both in his own death and in the death of his children ; besides all these , in every one of which they give a great many instances , they conclude with that which is more remarkable , and in which their duty to their prince made them the more concerned , since it touches one from whom the elector of saxony is lineally descended by the maternal line . the fault is indeed worthy of mr. varillas , and in that i say a great deal : it is this , mr. varillas says , that albert of brandenburg , who from being master of the teutonick order , was made duke of prussia , did when he was 69. years old ( he adds compleat , for he loves to be exact ) marryed dorothee , princess of holstein ( tho she was indeed daughter to frederick the first king of denmark ) that she who was very young , consented to the marriage , hoping he would shortly dye , and that so she would carry away a vast fortune with her ; but she was notably deceived ; for she quickly bore him a son , which cut off her hopes of having his wealth : but which was worse , she spent 30. years of her life with him , so long did he live after their marriage . but mr. varillas might have found the falsehood of all this out of the common genealogists , and in particular out of chytraeus , whom he cites . albert was born in the year 1490. and married the daughter of denmark in the year 1525. which was in the 35. year of his age. she bore him several children , but one daughter only came to age , who was married to the duke of meklebourg . she died after they had lived 22. years together : and after that in the year 1550. when albert was now 60. year old , he married to a daughter of the house of brunswick , by whom he had the son , that succeeded him in the dutchy of prussia : he had also many daughters by her , of whom one was married to the elector of saxony , and another to the elector of bradenbourg , and the rest to other princes : and this albert died in the year 1568. in the 78. year of his age , which one would have thought was a great age : but mr. varillas must be sublime in every thing , so he makes him to have lived till he was 99. some have wisht that such hints as these are might be furnished from the men of the several nations that mr. varillas has brought into his history : for it must be confessed , that no man has ever taken so much pains to make himself be so generally decried as he has done , by giving every kingdom an act in his play ; that so all europe over he may be equally despised : and therefore all further pains concerning him may be well superseded . i am sure , i am more than weary of him . finis . errata . page 11. line 4. after library put , . p. 21. l. 28. any expression r. my excep●ion . p. 39. l. 6. was r. it . p. 49. l last , inspected r. suspected . p. 56. l. 9. besainted r. beated , p. 77. l. 14 ninth r. fourth . p. 80. l. 15. deny'd r. said . p. 91. l. 2. which r. shat . p. 102. l. 25. the r. that . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a30334-e260 10 10 journal p. 170. of the amsterd . edition . notes for div a30334-e1370 p. 8. p. 5. p. 10. p. 5. p. 55 , 56 , 57. p. 6. p. 26. p. 29. ibid. p. 28. p. 265. 283. 323. 423. p. 20. p. 26. p. 90. 433. p. 30. p. 108.257 . p. 157. p. 364 , 366 , 380. p. 27 , 92 , 225 , 86 , 244 , 201 , 374. p. 44. p. 46. p. 50. p. 222. p. 53. p. 60. p. 67. p. 73. p. 70. pag. 84. p. 90. p. 94. polid. virg. lib. 4. p. 102 , 103. p. 109. p. 115. p. 117. p. 120. p. 127. p. 130. p. 134. p. 137. p. 139. p. 141. p. 144. p. 151 p. 161. ibid. p. 164. p. 167. p. 172. p. 177. p. 178. p. 180 p. 185. p. 187. p. 191. p. 193. p. 198. p. 200. p. 206. p. 211. p. 218. p. 222. p. 225. p. 233. p. 243. p. 240. p. 242. p. 250. p. 257. p. 260. p. 261. p. 263. p. 267. p. 272. p. 279. p. 285. p. 294. p. 295. p. 303. p. 306. p. 310. p. 226. p. 319. p. 324. p. 228. ex mss. gul. petyt ar. lib. 20. p. 340. p. 359. p. 484. p. 366. p. 368. p. 369. p. 373. p. 376. p. 377. p. 380. p. 385. p. 391. p. 394. p. 396. p. 398. p. 400. p. 409. p. 416. p. 419. p. 423. p. 425. p. 429. p. 432. p. 433. p. 435. p. 441. the fourth council of the lateran . p. 446. p. 451. p. 455. p. 458. p. 467. p. 468. lib. 7. p. 89. votivæ angliæ, englands complaint to their king:, or, the humble desires of all the zealous and true-hearted protestants in this kingdome, for a speedy and happy reformation of abuses in church government, being the onely meanes to remove these distractions, and to avert the judgement of god from us. : as they were expressed in sundry petitions, remonstrances and letters, lately presented from them to the king, upon sundry occasions. / collected by a wel-wisher to reformation. spencer, john, 1601-1671. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a93669 of text r184528 in the english short title catalog (wing s4955a). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 189 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 63 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a93669 wing s4955a estc r184528 43077644 ocm 43077644 151749 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a93669) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 151749) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 2274:28) votivæ angliæ, englands complaint to their king:, or, the humble desires of all the zealous and true-hearted protestants in this kingdome, for a speedy and happy reformation of abuses in church government, being the onely meanes to remove these distractions, and to avert the judgement of god from us. : as they were expressed in sundry petitions, remonstrances and letters, lately presented from them to the king, upon sundry occasions. / collected by a wel-wisher to reformation. spencer, john, 1601-1671. [4], 3-119 p. printed by h. dudley., london : 1643. numerous errors in pagination. "the epistle dedicatory" signed: iohn spencer. reproduction of original in: newberry library, chicago, illinois. eng charles -i, -king of england, 1600-1649. reformation -england -sources. great britain -history -puritan revolution, 1642-1660. a93669 r184528 (wing s4955a). civilwar no votivæ angliæ, englands complaint to their king: or the humble desires of all the zealous and true-hearted protestants in this kingdome, for spencer, john, groom 1643 34421 24 0 0 0 0 0 7 b the rate of 7 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-04 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-06 robyn anspach sampled and proofread 2007-06 robyn anspach text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion votivae angliae , englands complaint to their king : or the humble desires of all the zealous and true-hearted protestants in this kingdome , for a speedy and happy reformation of abuses in church government , being the onely meanes to remove these distractions , and to avert the judgement of god from us . as they were expressed in sundry petitions , remonstrances and letters , lately presented from them to the king , upon sundry occasions . collected by a wel-wisher to reformation . london printed by h. dudley . 1643. to the high and mighty monarch charles by divine providence king of great brittaine , france and ireland , &c. your highnesse may iustly condemne this as a high presumption , to present the most eminent king in the christian world with a discourse of petitions and coppies of letters : but i have found favour in your sight when i presented them unto your highnesse upon more dangerous tearmes , and therefore i trust that blessed lord will move your heart still to accept of the hearty desires of your poore subject , though they be not clothed with the glorious ornaments of wisdome and eloquence , as was fit to dedicate to the view of so learned and judicious a prince , but my comfort is , i speake to a mercifull king , that knowes how to passe by infirmities , and to pardon great offences : and so beseeching the lord god of heaven and earth to blesse your highnesse with many happy dayes , long to raigne over us to heare the petitions of your faithfull subjects , and to redresse their wronges , craving pardon for my boldnesse , i humbly take my leave . devoted to your highnesse service , iohn spencer . a discorse oe divers petitions of high concernment , and great consequence . this petition was written upon the booke for the recreation upon the lords day , and i delivered it to king iames at greenwitch : hee tooke it with him in his coach , and committed mee to mr. hutchinson , of the guard , for a certaine time , and was graciously pleased to have great care of mee for my dyet and lodging , and after divers disputations with bishop neal , and bishop buckridge , set mee at libertie . read o king , read o king , and then consider well , if ever any such decree was made in israel . help o king , help o king , and let not the sabbath . of our glorious god be thus prophained , with grievous sins in open streets proclaimed : nor in dooms dreadfull day this heavy hand-writing , bee iustly brought against great britains royall king . the humble petition of your sinfull subiect , john spencer . a petition delivered to king iames at bletfoe . good king iames reforme thy court of cursed swearing , which otherwise will undoubtedly gods heavy iudgements bring : and to his faithfull ministers gracious bee , whose ruine else we soone shall see ; this happy boon an earnest suit to thee i make , oh consider well , and grant it for christs sake . the humble petition of your sinfull subiect iohn spencer . a petition delivered to our gracious king charles at finchingbrook , at his going to his army royall , anno , 1639 , march 28. the glorious lord of heaven and earth the god of battel , and lord of hosts , for our lord jesus christ his sake , blesse our gracious king charles , and his brave army , and cover his royall head in the day of battell , and returne him with honour and victorie to his royall queen : but i beseech your highnesse , give your poor subiect leave to intreat you that you would not adventure your selfe in the day of battell ; but remember what the souldiers said unto the valiant king , david , 2 samuel , 21. 17. thou shalt go no more out with us to the battell , lest thou quench the light of israel , and consider what counsell that kingly prophet giveth , psalme 34. 17. eschew evill and do good , seek peace and ensue it . and therefore that faire englands happy peace may not be now endangered ; let the new scottish service book , and the book for the recreation upon the lords day , be both throwne over the scottish bank , and so i humbly take my leave , and although by reason of my old age , and some wounds that i received at the famous siege of ostend , i am disabled to doe your highnesse service in the war , yet as my bound duty is , i will dayly pray unto the god of peace , to set your feet in the way of peace . the humble petition of your loyall subiect iohn spencer a petition delivered unto our gracious king charles , upon this occasion ; the king was to go towards new-market upon munday , but the waggon and the hounds went thorow cheapside upon the lords day , which was not lawfull , o king : i never heard that they removed since upon the lords day , so gracious was the kings care herein . good king charles , remember to keep holy the sabbath day , and let not charles wain be seen to move on london way ; but in the high sphear of heavenly contemplation : let that day be spent in holy meditation : both king , servants , subiects , all zealous for gods glory , to hate profanenesse , and to abolish all idolatry ; that so when thy blest soul shall leave thy royall breast , thou mayest in heaven for ever have a glorious rest . the humble petition of your sinfull subiect iohn spencer a petition unto our gracious king charles , upon the late setting forth of the book for recreations upon the lords day . good king charles to hear be graciously pleased that this book in the dayes of your father , king of great renown , grew very ill , and grievously diseased , and to prevent the mischief that thereby might redowne , was with wisdoms holy care haply supprest : and so good king charles for evermore let it rest . the humble petition of your poor sinfull fervant iohn spencer . i sent my son with this petition , who made great haste , and delivered it to the king ; it pleased his highnesse to commit him prisoner to the guard of his royall person , and set him at liberty the next day , and commanded the lords of scotland to attend his highnesse in parliament upon munday , and there concluded a happy peace . a strange and strong transportation upon the lords day , april 27. 1639. this day going to the church of great staughton , and hearing the bels chime i fell into a strong apprehension that i saw king charles in the field with his brave army , under his standard royall upon a hill , with his owne squadrons , and the scottish army in the field also , and the king gave directions unto his colonels and captaines to charge the scottish battalions here and there , till the battell grew very bloody and mortall on both sides , and almost all the peers of england , and all the nobilitie of scotland lay slaine in the field : and then the valiant king charles seeing it grew to such extremity , descended the hill , and with great fury and resolution , charged the scattered body of the scottish army and made a great slaughter of them , and so obtained the victory , and forc'd them to leave the field , and then returned to mourn over his noble peers that there lay slain upon the ground , which put me into such a passion of weeping , that meeting with mr. saul our preacher , and mr. bauldin and they seeing of me in such a passion of mourning , and desirous to know the cause thereof , i could not declare to them the cause of my great sorrow , but went into the church , and prayed with a troubled spirit , the lord grant if it be thy blessed will , that it may prove but a melancholy conceit . but oh that your highnesse would be be graciously pleased to call a parliament , turne the faces of these brave armies towards the palatinate to settle your royall sister in her inheritance , and set at liberty your capitive nephew prince robert and soe you shall make all the princes of christendome stand amaz'd at your high prudence , and great magnanimitie : consider what i say and doe it , and the lord will bring it to passe , and then make you the most renouned king of the christian world , amen , amen , good king charles send for colonell fleetwood , hee is a valiant man , and of great abilities , and will doe you faithfull service in your war , i heare he is lately married to a great mans daughter in those parts , but if it please your highnesse , to command him , he will leave his young lady to doe you service . and now seeing things through gods gracious providence doe thus happily concur , i beseech your highnesse give me leave to renue my former suit unto you , and your houourable court of parliament for the happy and honourable uniting of these brave armies , make your nephew the prince elector ( who was now so happily in your court ) make him generall to lead these brave armies into the palatinate , to settle your royall sister in her inheritance , and to set at liberty his brother prince robert , for that is a shame to all the princes of christendome to see a distressed lady so long insulted over by such a bloody tyrant ; and for the support and transporting of these armies , i would willingly give ten subsedies , besides those are already given ; and i hope every able and faithfull subiect in the land will doe the same , that so this royall prince may beat out the proud enemie out of the palatinate , and then settle the emperiall crowne of germany upon his royall head , and lead his victoriors army unto romes gates , sack the citie , and burn the whore of babylon with fire ▪ and so fulfill the prophecie revel. 17. 16. 17. verses , and the ten hornes which thou sawest upon the beast , are they that shall hate the whore , and shall make her desolate and naked , and burne her with fire ; for god hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will . amen , lord jesus , amen . the humble petition of your loyall sinfull subiect iohn spencer . a coppie of a letter to a great peer of this land , upon a strange discontentment betwixt him and his beautifull lady , about the passing of two manners unto his onely sonne as brave and as noble a gentleman as this kingdome afforded ; the letter i delivered unto his owne hand : he read it , and retired himselfe into an inward chamber , wept much , and came out againe unto me , gave me thanks , and said never man desired more to gaine awoman than he did to gaine her : to this effect , never did i in al my time know such great dislike about such a slight occasion , betwixt two so vertuous , so noble , so beautifull and amiable , and so long reioycing in happy enioying one another , as will appeare in this dolorous discovrse . it may seem strange unto your lordship that a stranger should write unto you in this strange fashion , but then i beseech you in the feare of god , consider the strange course that you have taken , that forceth me thereunto : for is it not strange yet most strange , that so noble , grave and religious a man , should forsake his wise being a vertuous , beautifull and religious lady , make it not your owne case , and would you thinke it possible a wise man should be so transported , but beleeve it my lord , such a thing may be , & such a thing is and as the ptophet nathan said unto king david , thou art the man , that have behaved your selfe so undiscreetly , and frowardly : for have not you forsaken the wife of your youth , that vertuous and beautifull lady , with whom you have lived with great happinesse these twenty yeares : who hath approved her faithfull love and constancie unto you in so many strange and forraigne countries , and adventured her selfe in so many dangerous passages both by sea and land , to yeeld you comfort and contentment ; now to forsake her when you are gray headed and stand more in need of your mutuall societie and comfort : but now to forsake her to grieve your friends , and make your enemies reioice ; to forsake her to vex your selves , and to ruinate your estate , and to endanger the losse of your soules and everlasting happinesse , what greater want of wisdome can be shewed ? you carry your selfe exceeding forwardly herein , that neither the perswasions of friends , nor the intreating of those that love you , nor so many pitifull teares from the faire eies of your lady can move a reconciliation , but you fly from a distressed ladie as if you were pursued by an armed enemie ; was your noble blood ever stained with such cowardlinesse ? how may those renouned princes of the united provinces , who held and approved you so noble and valarous in heroick atchivements , both in germany and when you were lord deputie of ireland , be grieved to heare of this strange alteration in you ? but this is not the worst disgrace , for herein you have dealt very unwisely , for you have reiected the counsel of the prophets , of the apostles , and of our saviour christ himself : and have followed the course of your violent passions , or else the shallow device of some giddie heads , as rehoboam did to his owne confusion : for solomon the mirrour of wisdome advises you thus , reioyee with the wife of thy youth , let her be as the loving hinde and the pleasant roe , let her brests satisfie thee at all times , and delight in her love continually , prov. 5. 18 , 19. but you are so far from reioicing with her , and yeelding those comforts unto her , that you seek to reioice your selfe in hauking and hunting , and in the meane time to vex her with your tedious absence and froward messages , call you this wisdome ? nay , my lord , account it no better than machavilian policie . againe , st. peter adviseth you thus , husbands dwell with your wives , as men of knowledge , pet. 3 7. but you flie from chiswick to london , from london to hitchin , from hitchin to bletfoe , as though some fearfull dragon did haunt your owne habitation , or the aire was infected where your faire ladie breathed . lastly , our saviour christ being demanded by the proud pharises whether it was lawfull for a man to put away his , wife upon every occasion , makes this most holy answer , matt. 19. 4. and he answered and said unto them , have you not read that he that made them at the beginning , made them male and female , and said , for this cause shall a man leave father and mother , and cleave to his wife , and they twaine shall be one flesh , wherefore they are no more twaine but one flesh . let therefore no man part asunder whom god hath coupled together . now that you have been thus ioined , you dare not deny , or if you should , the solemn vow you made in the presence of almightie god , and before those honourable personages in cashawberry parlour shall witnesse against you : therfore how dare you make this fearfull separation , except you will proclaime your selfe a truce-breaker to man , and a traitor to god ; the first too scandalous , and the other too dangerous for a man of wisdome to undergo ; i beseech you in the tender mercies of iesus christ , enter into a serious consideration with your selfe , in what a desperate estate you are in , and heartily repent of the evill you have committed , and earnestly crave pardon of god , and then with all speed make a holy reconciliation betwixt you and your fair lady , that so the scandall of your holy profession may be removed , and the mouths of insulting papists may be stopped , and your distressed lady comforted , and your consciences quieted : but if you wil be stil wilful and obstinate , then assure yourself these lines shall rise up in condemnation against you , at the dreadfull day of judgement , before that glorious god of heaven and earth who shall iudge all men according to their works they have done in the flesh , whether they have been good or evill , and that without respect of persons , where your greatnesse shall no wise privilege you , nor my meanenesse not preiudice , the cause of that mighty god who hath chosen the foolish things of the world , to confound the mightie things : unto that all-powrefull god do i humbly pray , that for his deare son jesus christ his sake , he will vouchsafe his great power may be seen in my weaknesse , and his infinit wisdome in my foolishnesse , so that this weak means may be made powerfull to make you wise to salvation and produce that holy reformation as may bee to the glorie of god , and the everlasting happinesse of your owne soule , amen lord jesus amen . from him that will honour you according to your noble qualitie , if you do not dishonour that god that advanced you to this high dignitie , john spencer . a postscript . you are now conversant with a noble and religious friend whose zealouse heart i doe assure my selfe will easily be perswaded to take any paines in this charitable busines , consult with him , and then appoint the time and place where you and your lady may happily meet together to epaire the ruines that sad absence hath made , and beautifie your faces with those amiable looks , and your lips with those sweet discourses , wherewith you in happier times did solace your selves with unspeakable contentment . that so you may make the proverb true : amantium ira amoris redintigratio est . after this some great lords undertooke to bring them together but it was too late , but better late than never , for the lady was very weake in her bed , so they lamented their fatall errour , and tooke their last farwell , for she dyed within few dayes , and he lived not long time after . a coppy of a letter sent to the earle of cleveland and tho. lo. oliver st. iohn , for ending of a ●●●g suit betwixt iustice fish , and mr. mordant , concerning a seat in the church at northill . right honourable , vvhen ioab the generall of king davids army besieged rabba , and fought against it , and took the cities of waters , and thereby weakned them so , that they could hold out no longer : then he sent unto hi● lord the king to come up with his army to take the citie , lest if he took it he should have the honour , and the city should be called after his name . so i having fought with these two gentlemen with many arguments , perswasions and earnest intreaties , and so thorow the blessing of the god of peace , have qualified the bitter waters of strife , and weakned the strong hold of their violent passion and contentious humour , that now they can hold out no longer with any christian resolution , doe now send and sue unto your honours to come up with your commanding power , to take the honour of the day , and the renown to be the noble peace-makers , i have viewed the seat in the church which is large and spacious for both parties to sit in , like good christians and loving friends ; and therefore , if it will please your lordships now to lay your command upon them to confirme that which i have so earnestly intreated , that thus , and thus , it shall be for their sitting in the seat ; and thus and thus it shall be for the endiug of all suits and controversies betwixt them : then they have both of them faithfully promised before sufficient witnesse , that they will submit themselves thereunto : and so humbly beseeching that blessed lord the great peace-maker , who hath pronounced : blessed are the peace-makers , for they shall be called the children of god . to blesse your honours with the continuance of many happy days , to make you zealous for his glorie , and to see like good maiestrates under so gracious a king , the peace and welfare of your countrey , i humbly take my leave . august 12 , 1631. if it please your lordships to appoint these gentlemen a day and place , where they may attend to receive your commands under your hands . desirous that there was in me any abilitie to do you service , iohn spencer . right honourable , it is the rule of the apostle and of our saviour christ , rebuke not an elder , but exhort him as a father : oh therefore that it would please that blessed lord , even the god of wisdome , that i might performe this dutie to your lordship with such regard of your noble qualities and tender care of your precious soule as i ought : but however i may faile in point of discretion , yee i hope your lordship will beare with me , since it doth proceed from a heart that doth unfainedly desire your everlasting happinesse , i know it is a hard taske and many times a thanklesse office , to admonish men of mean qualitie of their faults , and to bring them to acknowledge their errours ; much more then those that are so farre our superiours : yet where grace and true nobilitie is , it will teachmen with meeknesse to suffer the words of exhortation , and with the kingly prophet to say , let the righteous smite me , for that shall be us precious balme unto me , for the wisest and greatest in this world , have their frailties and infirmities . david a man after gods owne heart , yet erred in numbring the people , and confessed he had done very foolishly . and salomon his son the wisest and the greatest statesman that ever was upon the earth , yet erred greatly , and although he provided men-singers , and women-singers ; and the delights of the sons of men ; yet he doth acknowledge all was but vanitie , and vexation of spirit : and so i trust your noble and religious heart , will tell you though you did provide you such excellent singers such rare conceits and curious actors and numbred the people to behold it , yet all is but vanitie , and vexation of spirit : and the more vanitie , and vexation of spirit , because it was on the lords day , which should have been taken up with better meditations , and the contemplation of heaven and heavenly things , and therefore that god might not be heareafter so , dishonored , nor your everlasting happinesse thereby endangered i beseech you , in the tender mercie of our saviour christ , give ear to the counsell of your servant , and be you pleased to submit your self to the censure of your own court , that so it may appeare to the world , that you will not stand out in any thing that is ill , but will give glorie to god , and yeeld obedience to all good lawes , and so ye may stoppe the mouths and stay the fury of many prophane people , which proclaime such libertie ( from this example , to follow their vaine delights upon the sabbath day , but i hope when they shall heare that such is the justice of the court , and faithfulnesse of your officers , they will execute justice without respect of persons , and therefore in this case will spare neither lord , bishop nor knights nor ladies : i trust i say when they shall heare of this , it will be a great danting and discouragement to them , and also , through the lords mercie , a means to repair again the breach whereat otherwise whole troops of prophane wretches will enter to lay violent hands upon the lords day : and so beseeching the lord god of sabbath that my counsell might be as wholsome and as acceptable unto you , as the counsell of abigal was to david , that you might with that holy man say , blessed be the lord god of israel that hath sent thee to meet me , and blessed bee thou that hast kept mee from giving any countenance or encouragement to any man that dares presume to prophane the sabbath of the great god of heaven , amen lord jesus amen . haughton more , november , 4. 1631. from him that hath so great cause and is so much bound to your lordship . iohn spencer . you may bee pleased , that my lord bishop had lately made me comissarie generall upon this occasion , the earle of cleaveland had built a sumptuous chappell and intreated the bishop to consecrate the same and it pleased their lordships to give me notice of the day , so i did attend the bishop , and the next day he did it with great state and solemnitie accompanied with the earle , and knights , and ladies , and a multitude of his clergie ; there was a learned sermon and the holy sacrament administred , and other rites and ceremonies performed , so that it was three a clock before they came out of the chappell , and then my lord bishop was pleased to question me before the earle of cleveland , in this manner : master spencer , what will they say to you now , that have been at the consecration of a chappell , received the sacrament at the hands of a bishop in his babylonish garment ? i answered ; if they have nothing else to say to me , this may very well be answered : but he said unto me , master spencer , what shall i do for you now , i know if i should make you my vicar-generall , you will dislike of that , because it is a popish title : but i le tell you what i will do for you ▪ i will make you my commissarie-generall ; and that he thought would please me better , for i had prosecuted his comissarie smith , and charged him with suspition of treason against the kings royall person : well i thanked his lo●p . & shortly after made more use of my office then he would have had me : for one mr. wilson a cunning musition having contrived a curious comodie , and plotted it so , that he must needs have it acted upon the sunday night , for he was to go the next day toward the court ; the bishop put it off till nine of the clock at night : a whi●e after , the commissarie , doctor morrison , kept a court at huntington , and i came thither and went into the seat with the commissarie , and put on my hat : the doctors and divines stood with hats off , and gave their attendance ; then some offered their presentment , but i told master commissarie , that i had a presentment , and that must be the first , and so he took it , and read it , the tennour was thus : we do here present iohn lord bishop of lincolne , for having a comedie acted in his house upon the sunday , it began about nine of the clock at night , and continued till two or three of the clock the next morning . we do present also sir sidney mountacute , and his lady , for leaving their parish church to come to hear this comedie . we here present sir thomas headly , and his lady for the like . we do present master wilson , and other acters of the same . so when master commissarie had read it , he was somewhat amazed at it , and asked of me who was the commissarie generall , i bad him ask my lord of lincolne who was commissary generall . and this presentment we do make , ex officio , commissarie generall , iohn spencer . so when this was registered , i took my leave of master commissarie and came away , for feare i should hear something else : and afterwards , because the bishop did not appear , i censured him for his fault to build a schole-house at eaton , and to endue it with twenty pounds a yeer for the maintenance of the schole-master . sir sidney mountacute to give five pounds and five coats to five poor women , and his lady five gowns and five pounds for five poor widdows : and this censure stands still unrepealed . a letter to sir william litton knight , concerning master spencer , that famous learned man , committed to prison for the refusing to stand to the hard award of mr. noades , but was upon this letter speedly released , and sir william litton tooke him againe into his favour , and was a noble friend unto him during his life . good sir william litten , i have visited mr. spencer , your famous prisoner whom it pleaseth you to call my rabbi , i finde him so willing to referre himselfe unto you and sir oliver luke to mitigate his hard award , that mr. noades hath made , that i need not any further perswasions to effect the same , onely give me leave to make this request unto you , that as humility is an excellent vertue in any man , much more in a man of eminent parts , that you would vouchsafe to be such a patron thereof in this case , that you will not suffer it to bee abused and disgraced by the reproachfull taunts of any insulting skinner man , that knowes better how to scrape ten groats out of a translated sheep-skin , than how to repair the losse of unvaluable learning , so long captivated in a loath some prison : i dare not say as st paul said to philemon in the behalfe of his prisoner si●●●… : if he hath hurt thee , or oweth thee ought , put it on my account : but i will rather put you in remembrance what our saviour christ saith unto simon peter , there was a certaine lender which had two creditors , the one ought him an hundred pence , the other fiftie , when they had nothing to pay he forgave them both : which of them therefore tell me will love h●m most ? simon answ●red and said , i suppose him that he forgave most : and he said unto him , thou hast t●uly iudged : and so i say unto sir william litton the more you sh●ll forgive your impoverished prisoner , the more you shall increase his love unto you ; and thereby you likewise you shall m●ke the splendor of your charitie and true nobilitie , more clearly appear unto others : consider what i say , and the lord give you an understanding heart to doe that which may be most for his glorie , and your everlasting comfort : and so i take my leave , and pray for your happinesse on earth , and everlasting happinesse in heaven : john spencer . a coppy of a letter to mr. john harvy , my lord st iohns steward . good mr. harvy , considering how dangerous the opposition of great men may bee both to church and common-wealth ; and scandalous amongst those that professe the gospel of peace , i have therefore made bold to use some endevours to qualifie and allay the heat of some unkindnesse which lately grew betwixt my lord st. iohn and my lord wentworth , and to that end used many perswasions , & hard intreaties to them both , and found my lord st. iohn so nobly disposed in it that he told me , for the thing it selfe hee thought it not worth a matter of unkindnesse ; but that which troubled him , was that he should bee so much mistaken in his judgement , esteeming my lord wentworth so loving and faithfull a friend unto him . to this effect i did much endevour to remove that conceit of mistaking , and reduce his lordship to his former good opinion of my lord wentworth , and disired that hee should passe by that as an error of a young man , and so ground his opinion upon the former and future carriage of my lord wentworth towards him , then upon the fayling in one particular , which hope gave some satisfaction unto his lordship , therefore i pray doe you second that with your best pe●swasions , as occasion shall give you opportunitie ; and let us not be discouraged to deale therein , because they are great men , for god hath ordained weake things of the world oft times to confound the mighty : and we may observe in the overthrow of benhadads mighty army at the siege of samaria , whereof he made such proud boasts , the overthrow was given by a small number of 232 of the servants of the princes of the provinces , 1 king. 20. 10. 7. so likewise when naaman that great commander was so discontented with the message that the prophet elisha sent him to wash him seven times in the rivers of iordan , the good councell of his servants prevailed with him , and stood him more in stead then if he had had the whole army of the king of aram , 2 king. 5. 11. and therefore let us use our weake meanes , and leave the successe unto the powerfull god of heaven and earth , who is able to make the lyon and the lambe , and the faulcon and the dove , to live peace able together , unto whose gracious protection i doe commend you , and so rest , your loving friend , iohn spencer . in the raigne of king iames of famous memory , passing through the pallace yard , i saw two men very much urging one another to goe over into saint georges field to fight , one wa● m. phillips the queenes so or man , the other was m newman my lord chamberlaines footman the english man a protestant ; the irish a papist . i used many perswasions to pacifie the busines betwixt them , but m. phillips said it was impossible to satisfie him till they had fought , but i would by no means suffer them to fight , but i would be m phillips his second , and my lord of hollands footman should have been m. newmans second , they should have fought with single swords , and i had a single sword also . when they saw that i would not leave them , the irish man asked what religion i was of , i said i did beleeve to have salvation onely by the infinite merits of the death and passion of my saviour iesus christ , and so i hoped he did likewise : then i demanded what religion he was of , that could warrant him to fight in such a quarrell ; he answered , happy man be his dole : in the end they were contented that i should have the hearing of the businesse betwixt them : so we went to a taverne in kings street , where they fell out at tables , and drew their swords , but the servants parted them , and upon the examination of the servants that did appeare , that the irish man did the wrong to the english man , and called him boy ? and that was the word of disgrace that m. phillips would never be satisfied till he fought with him ; therefore i did order , that m. newman should acknowledge that he had done m. phillips wrong , and that he was sorry for it ; and then m. newman cryed mercy , and then they embraced one another , and with such expressions of love , that they would live , & die together in defending one anothers quarrels , to this effect , and as it pleased god i parted this dangerous quarrell without drawing my sword , the irish man was a proper tallman , but m. phillips was young , but a brave spirit . and now that i am upon the point of peace-making , give me leave to give some few directions for the better effecting of this charitable worke . 1. humbly pray unto the god of peace , and lover of concord , to give you wisedome and direction , and frame the hearts of the contending parties to unity and concord , then get them into bond to stand to the arbiterment . 2. conferre with the parties alone by themselves , and then use all the strongest arguments you can to weaken the party you speake unto , by telling him what advantage his adversary hath of him , his great friends , his able parts , and resolute minde , and use the like arguments to the other . 3. try if a wife , a childe , or friend , may not be a fit agent to perswade in these differences . 4. consider what a happy and pleasing thing it is in the sight of god and good men to see neighbours to live together in love and unity . but in my long trading in these charitable businesses , i will declare unto you two very rare and unusuall means which i have made use of : a gentleman of great worth , and knight of the parliament house , and his minister of great worth and of great parts also , having spent much money in suites of law in the high commission court . i humbly intreated my lord mandevill , that noble peace-maker to take into his consideration they , being his neare neighbours , who tooke great paines to order the businesse , and end the suites , and gat them into bands , but they were both so resolute , they brake their bands , and refused the order , and procured commiss●ions out of the high commission court to examine witnesses , i think almost a fortnight together , to their great charge , and to make such misdemeanors appeare to that court , that some of their good friends thought would make them be fined a thousand pound at the least . the commission was sealed up , and sent to huntington to be returned into the high commission court . i was sorry to see all our labour lost , & hopes frustrate , yet it pleased god to put a conceit into my head , and therefore . i consulted with two that were nearly allyed to the knight of the parliament house , and told them we must make an end , ei●her with the consent of the parties , or without their consent ; for the first , that the suit was impossible ; the second , how could it be , that i will tell you ? so we fell to writing , first , that all suite in law should cease : secondly , that thus much the knight of the parliament should give the p●eacher for rearages for his tythes , and then to prevent suites here after , the knight of the parliament should give thus much a yeare for composition for his tythes . when we had done , i told them i will engage my selfe to be bound in this summe , that the minister shall stand to this , and you shall doe the like to me ; that the knight of the parliament should doe the like , we entred into bands , and then sent for them , and when they saw that we stood engaged for them , and it was not their act they consented to that end , and entred into five hundred pound bonds apeece to stand to that end , thus it pleased god to take off this tedious and dangerous businesse . the other concerned my selfe : in my old age a gentleman had made a scandalous report of me , that i should send a cart upon the sabbath-day to remove certaine goods ; which was very false , yet he made report of 〈◊〉 ●oble friend of mine which answered very much for the , and would not beleeve it , used many meanes to vindicate my reputation ; but he would not be satisfied , but gave credit to the report of some lewd malicious companions ; so in the end i grew so foolish , that i sent him a challenge , & sent my man with it to meet me the next day by eight of the clocke in the morning , upon such a common , betwixt two woods , to meet single and with single swords . i came to the place at the time appointed , and beat the ayre , but he came not ; i rode to his gates to call him , but he returned his answer in a kinde letter to me , did acknowledge that he had done me wrong , to give credit to the report of such lying and malicious knaves , and that he would satisfie my noble friend how much i was wronged , to this effect , and afterwards we continued very loving friends during his life : this i doe relate , but would have no man follow this example , except they will doe ( and so i hope we should have done ) as two knights in king henry the eighths time , as i take it , that the one was sir iohn st. iohn , and the other sir henry cromwell , two valiant knights , and brave souldiers , and contended for a peece of ground , and spent more money in law then they were willing ; and seeing it was unfit for souldiers to follow suites in law , they resolved to determine it with their swords , and appointed a day to meet upon that ground , and there met , but considering better of it , that their valour was well knowne and what a vaine thing it was for them to adventure their lives upon such a quarrell , whereupon they grew to 〈◊〉 offers each to other of the ground , and contented who should give or take it : a vaine example of two so noble and valiant knights ; but i would now advise all men to ●ake heed they be not put to that adventure , for men to meet in the field , the devill will put these conceits into their mind that it is not for your honour , to appoint the field and not to fight , and if they fight , then it will be their dishonour to give over with this disadvātage , thy enemy hath given thee more wounds then thou hast done him , and so will urge them to fight still untill either one or both are slaine : as was seene in the ever to be lamented example of sir george wharton , and sir iames steward that stood upon tearmes of honour , and were both slain in the field . a copy of a letter to my cousin m. bullie , a grave preacher in new england . my very louing cousin , seeing we can no longer enjoy your company in old england , we would be glad to heare of your safe arrivall in new england , and i feare in this little time you finde by experience that all things are not answerable to your expectation , and likewise that your friends that did so earnestly desire your stay were not altogether mistaken , when they told you that you should find many inconveniences in that place . well , howsoever god , the god of infinite wisedome , that hath in his eternall councell appointed us our going out and our comming in ; that hath in his providence thus directed and inclined your heart unto this course , i trust also he will sanctifie both your prosperity and adversity in the same , that all shall worke together for the best , to further you to that everlasting rest which he hath prepared for his children in the kingdome of heaven ; and therefore now let us be partakers of the truth in both , and especially in the comfort of your freedome in the ordinances of god , and in your publique exercises in the holy worshipping of him , for that is the main thing that i desire to be satisfied in : and whether you have yet setled any uniforme course to be generally practised for the sanctifying of the sabbath , and when you begin and end the same , as also for prayer and reading the holy scriptures , preaching of the word , and singing of psalmes , with the manner of the administrations of the holy sacraments , and how far you doe still hold the order of the church of england , and wherein you differ from the same , or if you have not yet established such a course , but leave every minister to order his peculiar congregation to his own rule , whether you doe not finde great variety and differences in mens opinions in that way , and what inconvenience and danger may grow thereby , through sects and schismes , that of necessity is like to fall thereon . and thus good cousin you see how bold i am to trouble you with so many quaeries in a forraign land , when it is more need to make enquiry into my owne sinfull and deceitfull heart , to see what is done there in matter of reformation , repentance , and amendment of life . and therefore now though we are far remoted in the body , yet let us be present in spirit and prayer , and although you are retvred to a place of more privacy , and where your eyes ( i hope ) doe not see such abominations to vexe your heart with as ours doe , yet pitty us and pray for us ; and on the other side , be not , oh be not so secure , nor put your confidence in your select company , nor in those remoted woods and solitary mountaines ; but remember what befell unto lot , that was righteous lot whilest he lived in sodome ; but when he would fly out of zoar to a solitary cave in the mountaines , with his two daughters , he committed those abominable sinnes there , that his soule would have abhorred once to have thought on in sodome , and therefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall , our help is in the name of the lord , that hath made heaven and earth , who is able to help us in all places , and at all times , and so beseeching the god of peace that brought againe from the dead our lord jesus christ the shepheard of his sheep , through the bloud of the everlasting covenant make us perfect in all good works , and to doe his will , working in us that which is pleasant in his sight through jesus christ , to whom be praise for ever and ever . amen even so i take my leave , and rest , your loving and sinfull cousin , iohn spencer . i pray remember my respective love to my gracious cousin , your loving wife , who hath given such a testimony of her love unto you , and the reverend opinion she hath of your honourable calling , and commend mee to the rest of my cousins , and to so many of our christian friends as you think fit , england , iuly 9. 1635. a charitable consideration , of new englands plantation . we read in holy writ and law leviticall . that if a man dyeth , having no child at all ; his neerest kinsman by the right of aliance , shall take both the widdow and the inheritance ; to raise up seed to the dead , and by doing well , continue still his brothers name in israel . fair england of the northern world the great renowne , having late made vnion with the scottish crowne : thereby involving her title with great brittaine , and so lyeth obscured in that golden chaine we to continue the name of our brother , in great america hath rais'd up another : the almighty god grant that ever may remain an ornament to england , a terror to spain . finis . john spencer . mtr. brightman a little before he died , translated the canticles into verse , whereupon i wrote these verses . th' heavenly song of that bright man , whereto he tun'd his latest breath : much like asilver shining-swan , presag'd thereby his present death : a goodlier song was never seene , and few such singers left there been . but you faire signets which still remaines by pure streames of sacred truth , washing your wings from sinfull staines , with mournfull tears and dolefull ruth ; lest you should him too much deplore , for you this song he left in store . never therefore let the prophane , with sinfull lips and hearts impure ; this sacred song once dare to name , lest they damnation doe procure : let them with toads their croaking make , till they doe their sins forsake . but you deare children of the light , whose lips are tun'd to sing this praise , oh labour still to shine more bright , and therein spend your happiest dayes ; that when your dear lord shall appeare , he may you finde a spouse most cleer . finis . iohn spencer , a charitable supposition of mtr. brightmans sudden dissolution . no marvell though so bright a man , his glorious life in heaven so soone began : for long his soule had languish'd in great griefe , to see gods chosen flocke to want their best reliefe : and cruell wolves , dumbe dogs , and lordly masters ; set in the roome of christs faithfull pastors . therefore his deare lord seeing his servant thus distrest , took him away unto his everlasting rest . finis . iohn spencer . here lyeth inter'd sarah spencer the vertuous , wife of iohn spencer , and sarah his virgin-daughter : both so goodly , faire and curteous , as few such sarahs will be found hereafter : blessed be the lord god of heaven and earth that made them so renouned both in life and death . a coppie of a letter sent to a great lady . madam , my great care of your everlasting happinesse , and my respective love to my reverend cousin mr. lee , who now is dead in the lord , and therefore must cease from his labour : and from those holy endevours whereby he did labour to plant grace in your heart in your tender yeares , and whereof you then gave such excellent hopes that in the autumne of your age , he should have seen a plentifull increase of that blessed fruit , and many goodly sheaves of pietie and happinesse , to his great comfort in the harvest : but it pleased god , the great lord of the harvest to take him away as from other evils to come , so likewise from those griefs that would have wounded his heart to see those flourishing hopes so nipt and withered in your spring-time : it pleased god to make me partaker of his last prayer , and to close his eyes : oh that it might be his blessed pleasure to make his spirit to be redoubled on me , that i might be the better able to admonish and exhort you to reform that which is amisse in you , and disgracefull to your holy profession , i meane in respect of your outward carriage and appearance , with so many fond fashions and garish attires , as to deale plainly with you , were more meet for one of painted iezabels profession , than for a lady of your worth : and more fit to furnish a pedlers pack , than to make open shew of them in the church of god , and in the assembly of the saints : whereas things should be done with comelinesse and decencie ; and therefore he commandeth that no woman should be covered because of the angels , 1 corinth . 11. 10. and that women should pray with their heads covered . but if this be a comely covering to have a womans head covered with dogs haire , or goats haire , and cats dung , and painted fethers , judge you : for my owne part , the word of god wherewith you shall be judged , condemnes it as odious and abominable : but it may be you will say it is the gallants fashion , and what if the venetian curtizans have brought up that fashion ? must the religious ladies of england follow that fashion ? god forbid , the children of god must not fashion themselues after the world , rom. 11. 2. but they must fashion themselvs according to the rule of gods word , and then madame marke what fashion you must be in , 1 timoth. 2. 9 , 10. likewise also the women , that they array themselves with shamefastnesse and modestie , not with broidered haire , or gold , or pearls , or costly apparell , but as becommeth the feare of god with good works . i beseech you in the feare of god deck your selfe with these rich jewels , of faith and repentance , humilitie , patience , fasting and prayer , and good works , that so you may be like the kings daughter glorious within , and this will make you amiable in the sight of god , and glorious in the eies of his saints , and remember you are the daughter of a religious ladie , and the wife of an ancient knight , and the mother of two sons : and therefore you must give them good example of wisdome and sobrietie , for godlinesse is great gaine , if we can be contented with that we have : and god hath blessed you with a rich portion of outward beauty and comelinesse , and therefore do not deface that incomparable worke of god , with such base trash and trumperie , for you shall never enter into the kingdome of heaven , into the companie of glorious saints , with that trumperie on your back , and gaudes on your head : consider what i say , and the lord give you grace to repent of your sins before you go hence , and be no more seen , amen , amen . from him that doth desire your endlesse happinesse . iohn spencer good brother , i am desirous to heare if my father winne have paid the fifty pounds unto sir milss fleetwood , and also to admonish you ( as i take it ) of your unseasonable payment of one hundred pounds upon the sabbath day morning before harborough faire , alas , was that a fit time to tell money , and to make your accompts with men , when you should accompt with god ? was that a fit time to rumble in your chest for your money-bags , when you should have ransackt your heart for your sius ? must not the lord of sabboths needs be highly offended , to see the service of men preferred before his divine service ? and more care had for the buying of oxen , than for the keeping of his holy sabbath , must not the lord needs visit for such sins ? nay , hath he not already visited , although in great mercy , for was not your dear and onely son , within a few dayes after closed up in a chest ? and there found by his mother speechlesse , and near his last breathing , had not the lord in judgement remembred mercy , and restored life when we deserved death ; and if you did not already make use of it , i beseech you in the feare of god assure your selfe , that in that judgement the lord would have you take notice of that particular sinne ; for if you remember when i was with you at arlsen ( i told you before i heard of this , that you must thinke that there was something amisse that the lord would have reformed , when he threatened such fearefull judgement to this effect : and therefore i beseech you bewaile that grievous sinne ; and as iob made a covenant with his eyes , so doe you make a covenant with your hands never to abuse them so againe , with telling money upon the sabbath day . and remember it was balaams ever to be lamented error , still to pursue the wages of iniquity , although the angell threatened him with a drawing sword ; but let his fearefull end teach us with wisedome to returne in time , and repent of our sinnes , and make our peace with our god , before we goe hence and be no more seene ; and to say truth , these dayes and dangerous times requires a continuall preparation for our last departure , when so many wise and strong are taken away , and their honour laid in the dust ; and we must looke also for our changing we know not how soone , and therefore good brother let us walke circumspectly , as the children of the light , and such as are risen with christ , setting our affections on things that are above , and not on things that are on the earth , for our life is hid with christ in god : when christ which is our life shall appeare , then shall we appeare with him in glory . in the meane time let us be diligent to exhort and admonish one another , and to edefie one another in our holy faith , that so we may grow from grace to grace , and strength to strength till we become perfect men in christ . amen , lord jesus , amen . your loving brother , and the lords unworthy creature , john spencer . staughton more , novemb. 7. 1616. a copy of a letter to the prisoners at bedford , with a booke of common prayer , and m. dods exposition upon the commandements bound up together with bosses and claspes . brethren , my hearts desire and prayer to god for you poore prisoners , is that your soules might be saved : for i beare you record , that in these places you endure many times hunger , cold , and much misery together , with the fearefull expectation of the judges comming , and the sentence of death , yet if god doth not worke in your hearts true repentance , and sanctifie these afflictions unto you , it will be but as a forerunner of the appearing before that dreadfull iudge that will pronounce that fearefull sentence of damnation against the wicked , of , goe ye cursed into hell fire , and these yron chaines , a shadow of those everlasting chaines of darknesse , wherein the wicked shall be for ever tormented ; and therefore that i might be a meanes ( through gods mercy ) to further you in that holy worke of true repentance , i have procured these two bookes to be bound up together for your better use in this place of restraint , the one commended and commanded by the publique authority for the publique service of god , the other the worke of a reverend preacher , an excellent exposition of the commandements , both being undertaken in the feare of god , and diligently used , may be a blessed meanes to further you in the way of repentance , and to set your feet into the way of peace . first therefore pray earnestly to god to give you understanding hearts , and then read , and then pray and read againe : and the lord of heaven so blesse you in reading and praying , that you may truly repent you of all your sinnes , before you goe hence , and be no more seene . amen . stoughton moore . 1624. from him that wisheth your everlasting happinesse . let me intreat you in the feare of god , that one of you that is best affected and best inabled , to read prayers and the psalmes , for morning and evening prayer , according to the order that is appointed in the booke of common prayer , and then in stead of the chapters which you should read in the bible if you had it , read every morning and evening a portion of the commandements as is appointed for the day of the month that so the booke of the psalmes and the exposition of the commandements may be read over once every moneth , and upon every sabbath day . i would have you ( besides the ordinary portion appointed for that day of the month ) read the exposition of the fourth commandement , halfe at morning prayer , and halfe at evening prayer ; let one read distinctly and reverently , and let the rest heare diligently and devoutly . i doe humbly desire the honourable court of parliament to take that to their consideration , that every prison may be furnisht with such a booke , and every high sheriffe of every countrey provide a preacher to visit the prisoners once every week , for it is pittifull to see how they are neglected . a copy of a letter to m. hutchinson , to whose hands king iames committed me , after i delivered unto him the petition for the sabbath . my very loving and kind keeper , although you have been long out of sight , yet you have been oftentime in minde , and often in my thoughts and prayers unto god for you , as i had good cause when i remember the great care and love that you and m. hutchinson did shew unto me when i was prisoner in your house . oh that it would please the lord to make me as happy a prisoner unto you , as saint paul was unto his keeper at philippi , whereof you may read in the sixteenth chapter of the acts of the apostles , who at saint pauls first comming into the prison , was in such a woefull estate of a persecuting infidell , yet that night being terrified with the earthquake and feare of the losse of his prisoners , would desperately have murthered himselfe , but saint paul having pitty and compassion upon him , cryed out with a loud voice , doe thy selfe no harme , for we are all here : and then with feare and trembling he fell downe before them , and brought them out of prison , and said , sirs , what must i doe to be saved ? and saint paul preached unto them , to beleeve in the lord iesus , and he and his houshold should be saved : and so through the lords great mercy they were converted and baptized , and greatly reioyced that he and all his house beleeved in god . now though i have not seen you so desperately minded to kill your selfe with your sword for feare of my escape , yet i must needs say , i have seen you ready to wound your soule with fearefull swearing , and excessive drinking , and how greatly this may endanger your soule and body also you may consider of it : you remember well that the lord will not hold him guiltlesse that taketh his name in vaine ; and saint paul doth testifie , that drunkards shall not inherit the kingdome of god , galat. 5. 22. but of these sinnes i have admonished you of when i was with you , and through the lords great mercy found some reformation thereof , in that i did see you refraine from such excessive drinking , and sometimes abstaine an oath , and reprove others for swearing . i know that is a hard matter suddenly to cast off such growne sinnes , and those whereunto you have been so long accustomed ; but on the other side also , i know it is an easie thing unto our omnipotent god to set your feet into the way of peace . oh therefore unto that mercifull god to convert your soule , and to set your feet into the way of peace . oh therefore pray unto that blessed lord , and importune him with earnest and zealous prayer day and night , untill he hath wrought in you that blessed worke , to give you grace not onely to see your sinnes , but give you also true repentance and godly sorrow for them , that you may now loath them more then ever you loved them , and utterly detest and abhorre them , though they be as deare unto you as your right eye , and as profitable unto you as your right hand , yet cast them off , and cast them from you ; for it is better for us to enter into the kingdome of heaven so maimed and spoiled of our sinnes , then to enjoy them here for a short time , and then both soule and body to be cast into hell fire , where there is weeping and wailing in everlasting darknesse . and now that you may escape those everlasting torments , and attaine to the kingdome of heaven and the righteousnesse thereof , you must settle your selfe to the constant performing of those holy duties of prayer and hearing the word of god ; and you must take unto you that christian resolution , that no feare of mans displeasure , nor the mockes and scoffes of wicked men should make you never to neglect the same ; i meane , you must not be ashamed to goe to sermons , nor to keep holy the sabbath-day , nor to pray with your wife and servants , though all the drunken companions in kent should rayle or ieere at you for the same ; but remember that those that are ashamed of our lord iesus christ , and of his holy service on earth , he will be ashamed to owne them in the day of judgement , and leave them to their devillish masters , and to those hellish torments which he hath prepared for such base slaves that doe preferre the service of the devill before the service of god : and then will they cry unto the mountaines to cover them , and to hils to fall upon them , rather then they would heare the dreadfull sentence of , goe ye cursed into hell fire , prepared for the devill and his angels ; and the wofull execution that followes thereupon , to be closed up for ever in utter darkenesse , and there to be tormented with those damned spirits , where in stead of their carousing and filthy speaking , they shall have weeping , and wailing , and gnashing of teeth for evermore , and never shall behold the face of any man , nor heare the voice of any creature to yeeld them comfort ; but as they delighted themselves in swearing and staring , in cursing and raging , so they shall have their fill thereof among those raging and furious damned spirits , and yet shall not procure one drop of water to coole their tongues , although they be tormented in those hellish flames , as you may read in the example of dives , saint luke 16. 29. and then my loving keeper , is it not much better with moses , to chuse rather to suffer afflictions with the children of god , then to enjoy the pleasures of sinne for a season , and then to goe to everlasting torments . and what if you be mocked and pointed at for a puritane , and be counted a mad man because you separate your selfe from the company of blasphemous wretches and abhominable drunkards , and doe now resolve to serve the living god with an honest heart ; nay , what if you should be persecuted and imprisoned for his name-sake ? rejoice and be glad , for great is your reward in heaven ; for so persecuted they the prophets and holy men of god in former times ; and so likewise did the iews persecute our lord iesus christ , and said , he was mad , and had a devill : and if they dealt thus with him our lord and master , shall we looke for a greater priviledge ? nay , let us with a holy resolution arme our selves to encounter with all their temptations ; and with the blessed apostle rejoice that we are accounted worthy in such an honourable cause , and to be made like unto our saviour christ in any sort ; for he entred into his kingdome of glory through many tribulations . i am a little the more earnest upon this point , because even while i was with you , i feare there were some that did with scoffing and geering seeke to discourage you in those good courses whereunto you were so tractable : but i beseech the lord of mercy strengthen your faith , that you may not onely come secretly unto christ , as nicodemus did , but boldly speake to his glory , as nicodemus did afterwards : and then i trust you shall finde great comfort unto your owne soule , and cause the angels in heaven to rejoice ; for as our saviour christ saith , luke 15. i say unto you likewise , ioy shall be in heaven for one sinner that converteth , more then for ninety and nine iust men which need no amendment of life : and so humbly praying to that blessed lord , that you and yours , and i and mine , may be found in the number of those true repentant sinnners : i rest , your loving friend , iohn spencer . braughton moore , october 2. 1618. i pray remember my respective love and thankfulnesse unto your wife , and desire her , that whatsoever i have written unto you , she will account that as writ to her selfe , for you two must be but as one . commend me to m. iohn davies , and to m. knevett , and to m. preston , and m. parsons the great porter . m. commissary i heare that you are greatly offended , because many well disposed people came to cople-church upon friday the nine and twentieth of august to pray and to heare the word of god preached ; for which hainous fact as you would make it , you and your officials have so terrified both preachers and people , as though it were in your power to bring them under the spanish inquisition . for my own part therefore to save you some labour in your inquirie after me , i doe acknowledge my selfe to be one of them that was there , and one also that did much desire to further that meeting ; and that it was my meaning ( and i hope the meaning of many others ) to humble our soules that day in fasting and prayer , and to pray to the god of heaven for our gracious king , for we heard the weeke before that he was sicke ; and likewise that the lord would blesse his great designes then in hand , and protect his army and navy that was then to set forth to sea : and now master commissary , if your heart be so malitious that you cannot endure to have us performe this service to god , and duty to our king , but you and your officials will persecute and restraine us . assure your selfe , if there be any law in the land will hang you up for it , at bedford gallowes , i will as eagerly pursue you to that place of execution , as if you had cut the throat of my father , and hewed my eldest sou in pieces : and if you and your officials will maintaine your decrees to be the lawes of the medes and persians , that may not be broken , though the king and his subjects suffer never so much prejudice by the same ; and therefore if upon these extraordinary occasions we make our prayers and supplications unto our god in this manner : we shall be cast into the commissaries denne . i trust that mighty god that did deliver his servant daniell from the rage of such cruell beasts , will likewise deliver us from the fury of your roring cannon ; and being thus overcharged , make it recoyle-upon your selves , and teare you in pieces , and there be none to deliver you , read psal. 50. ver. 20. are you so squint-eyed that you can see to trouble an honest man in bedford for going to heare a sermon upon the sabbath-day in the afternoone in the same towne , and when there was none at his own church , and for more expedition , and for double fees to cite him , and suspend him altogether ; but you cannot or will not see to punish some notorious drunkards and swearers , and tobackonists , and tossepots , and whoremongers , and blasphemers , &c. pocklington or pockie-tongue , who in a publicke sermon used this blasphemous speech , enveighing against those that stood for preaching , that he sung a hopkins jig , and so whipt up into the pulpit : but i trust when our gracious king is humbly petitioned unto , and his highnes , and his parliament truly informed how his poore subiects are dealt with , i hope his highnesse will see it redressed , and will not suffer us to be thus vexed and terrified for performing the duty of faithfull subiects in this holy course of fasting and prayer , which his highnesse hath to his everlasting fame so often publiquely commanded , and in his royall person so reverently performed ; and therefore having such a royall president , we will follow it , and doe you and your officials the worst you can , and know this is the resolution of iohn spencer . this letter i sent to master commissary by an understanding man , and wished him if the commissary gave him a shilling for his paines he should not refuse it , and appointed him to run to bedford , that i might know the commissaries answer . the commissary was a very stout and cholericke man , and when he had read the letter he stampt and fumed as if he had been wilde , and returned me this answer : that he would iustifie that he did , and if i had any thing to say to him , i must meet him to morrow at his court at ampthill , and so i did ; and when he was going to his court in his pompe , i met him in the street , and asked him if he was the commissary , and he said , yes : then i told him , i doe charge you with suspition of treason against the kings royall person , and so then commanded the constables to doe their office , and then there was a great hurrye to fro , as if we had been driving an oxe to the butchers stall . he made great offers to put in bayle , and that he might goe to the church to take order for the dismissing the court ; but i would give no consent , but told him , i knew not whether hee might sit there , being thus attached upon treason ; yet he prevailed with the constables , and they went with him to the church , and i rode to the church gate , and sent in the constable to bring him away , he intreated to have a little longer time to dissolve the court , and there was such a jubile and going away without paying fees , as i thinke was never seen in all his time before . i hastened him away to goe to sir edmund conquests to take order for the sending of him up to the councell ; and told him that i had charged him with suspition of treason against the kings royall person ; and desired his care to send him up safely by the sheriffe , or else to send him to bedford goale that he might be forth-comming . so sir edmund said , he must do one of them , and would have knowne of me what were the words which hee should say ; but i answered him , that was not so fit for me to tell , th●t i must make that knowne to the councell , and so made hast towards london ; and then i saw master commissary and the constable , and three or foure more with him a foot , as though they had been going to hunt the foxe : they called unto me , and would have me stayed to see if they could have taken up the businesse betwixt master commissary and i , but i would not come at them , but hastened to my lord president , and related unto him the businesse betwixt master commissary and i : so his lordship said , that was somewhat irregular , yet he should not disturbe me in my devotion . master commissary came up , and some friends laboured to take up the matter betwixt us . sir beaucham st. iohn , and other gentlemen we met in westminster hall ; and after some conference about the businesse , m. commissary did solemnly protest that he did not prosecute us because we kept afast , and prayed for the king ; but heard that it was so well performed , that if it had been with authority , he would have been at it himselfe , and then i did acknowledge that i was sorry that i did not apprehend it so : to this effect then we did consult what might be done for the repayring of master commissaries reputation : so we resolved that master commissary should put in a bill against me , and i should not plead against it , and so a writ of enquiry should go out to enquire what damage this was to master commissary ; and he promised me , if they gave him two hundred pound , he would not take a penny of it : so he put in two bils of complaint what great damage he was put unto ; and whereas before he was well esteemed of noblemen and gentlemen now they eschew his company , whereunto i made this short answer : when m. cōmissary shal clear himself of the suspition of treason against the kings royall person , and cleare his bill of untruths : i hoped i should be at more leasure to make a longer answer , in the meane time desired to be dismissed of the honourable court ; so they gave him a hundred pound damage , which i tendred unto him , and he told it , and put it up againe every penny ; i gave him a piece of plate with two hearts joyned together , and this inscription , amantium ira amoris , redintigratio est : and so we continued very loving friends to his death ; and he told a gentlewoman of great worth , his loving neighbour , that never any affliction did him so much good to commiserate this trouble and vexation that he had done to others , and so grew one of the best commissaries , and died lamented . a copy of a letter to sir oliver luke knight , when he was high sheriffe . sir , the blessed apostle having used that vehement intreaty unto the romanes , to dedicate themselves to the service of god , chapter the 12. in the next verse he doth second that intreaty , with this excellent exhortation : and fashion not your selves like unto this world , but be ye changed by the renewing of your minds , that you may prove what that good , and acceptable , and perfect will of god is . whereupon i beseech you give me leave to make this profitable application to you in particular , whom it hath pleased god to call now unto an office of great dignity in the common wealth . and humbly i beseech him likewise to give you a wise heart to mannage it to his glory , and the good of his church , and the comfort of your owne soule : and that you may so doe , take heed you doe not fashion your self like unto this world , not like to a worldly sheriffe , especially in these two thinges , neither in your officers nor in your attendancy , for it is oft the custome of carnall minded sheriffes to receave there under officers by tradition whatsoever their condition be ; but i pray be not you in that fashion , but follow that grave and holy direction that iethro gave to moses , exod. the 18. the 21. moreover , provide thou amongst all thy people men of courage , fearing god , men dealing truely , hating covetousnesse , and therefore i pray make a diligent inquisition amongst your officers , and if you finde one lewd bayliffe in all your pack let him be discarded , and an honest man put in his place ; againe , it is the fashion of many vain glorious sheriffs to exceed so in the number of their attendants , and in their excessive entertainments , that they are forc't either to end their house keeping with their office , or else to lay such heavy burthens and wracking rents upon their tennant , as gives them just cause to lament the prodigallity of their landlords sherivalty seaven yeares after ; but i beseech you take heed you be not in any sort drawne to like of this fashion , neither by the instigation of others , nor by the volentary offers of your honourable friends which at this time it may be will be too forward to adde fewell to the flame of your one ambition ; but i pray consider your own revenue is very cōpetent both for your own ranck , and for the support of that office which is imposed upon you , and thanks be unto god for it , master oliver luke is well known and well esteemed of in the country without the liveries of great mens favoures , and therefore i pray stand firme upon your owne bottome , and let your own vertues make you still to be honoured , and not your excesse lamented , and in my poor conceit it is more for your reputation to shew your selfe in the habite of true judgement and moderation , and attended with your own servants , then to encrease your number with borrowed companies and decke your troopes with the gay feathers of other birds . again consider you are to entertaine judges of the land , men of wisdome and gravity , and such as should punish excesse and prodigallity as well as theft and usury ; besides these times are so peaceable that they need not such troopes of horse or squandrons of foote to guard their persons nor such pompe nor bravery to divert their minde from the better consideration of these great and serious imployments that they are to goe about . lastly in the feare of god lay this consideration well to your heart , how unseasonable & unseemly a thing it is to make that a time of feasting , and outward jollity , which should be a time rather of fasting and mourning , wherein both magistrate , and people should bewaile their own sins and the sins of the land , which at such times are so apparant , and for the which many of their christian brethren do suffer such heavy iudgements ; and therefore if we were in the right fashion , we should weep with those that weep , and remember those that are in bonds as though we were bound with them , and those that are in affliction as if you were also afflicted , with them , heb. 13. 3. thus did that noble magistrate ezra fast and mourne for the sins of the people and thus did david samuel the 1. the 3. the 35. and therefore what great cause is there for our magistrates to fast and mourn when they hear of so many thefts and murthers and abhominable sins committed in our streets , and for the which the lord might iustly bring his fearfull iudgements upon the whole land . and thus good sir oliver through the lords mercy , you may see that they are very proposterous in their house , & shew great want of true iudgement and christianlike affection that thinke these fit times for feastings , pompe and outward bravery . and therefore i beseech you take heed unto your own heart , and let neither the vaine examples nor the violent perswasions of vain glorious men , drawe you into their vaine errours , but evermore remember that most holy saying , and righteous censure of our saviour christ , saint luke 16. 15. that which is highly esteemed amongst men , is abomination in the sight of god , and therefore hold fast that word of truth and follow the holy directions thereof which is able to make you wise unto salvation , and both in these and all other your affaires first prove what that good acceptable and perfect will of god is , and doe that with all diligence , and then assure your selfe if you should fail of this fading honour that they so eagerly hunt after , yet you shall have everlasting honour in the sight of god , and of his glorious angells in the kingdome of heaven . amen lord iesus . amen . staughton more , anno. 1617. from him that would be glad if either his penne or his person might doe you that good service he desires . iohn spencer . a copy of a letter to his brother nicholas spencer , to disswade him from his inordinate delight he took in cock-fighting , which soon after he happily and absolutely gave over . it is said of the churlish inne-keeper of bethlehem luke 2. 7. who entertained so many guests in the inne , that the virgin mary and our blessed saviour , were thrust out into the stable , because there was no roome for them in the inne : but let us in in the fear of god take heed of such jewish tricks , lest in the end we force our saviour christ to leave us in the fight of our sins , and ingratitute , and then it will cost us many a grievous sigh , many mournfull teares before we finde him againe , read cant. 5. 6. nay , so wofull shall our estate be that it shall be never out of our minde : and now out of my brotherly love unto you i must admonish you of that bewitching and vain pleasure of cockfighting , wherein you are so strangely transported that both my selfe and many of your faithfull friends with grief of heart discern a great alteration in your affections to those courses of religion wherein heretofore you have shewed your selfe more forward and zealous . i beseech ye in the fear of god consider to be a stunling in religion is a fearfull thing , but to go ten degrees backward with ezekiahs diall is most intollerable ; alas shall we begin in the spirit and end in the flesh , shall we be snch greedy elues in our pleasure , sell those heavenly ioyes and blessed hope of our heavenly inheritance for a messe of vaine delights : oh consider how farre we are from the holy zeale of those blessed saints in queen maries dayes , that forsook both their goods , wives , and children for the glory of god and the safety of their soules : what vaine wretches shall we approve our selves to be , if we will not forsake our vaine pleasures ? it is not your faire house , nor your children , nor loving wife i perswade you to forsake , it is the vaine and unprofitable sport of cock-fighting , which brings ruine to your state , and the endangering of your everlasting happinesse : and therefore if either a desire to preserve your estate , or to preserve your everlasting inheritance might prevaile , my suit were soone granted . but it may be you will say , if i can prove this you will give over cock-fighting ; well , upon that condition i will take some paines to make it manifest : first , to the matter of the ruine of your state , i referre you to the examination of your particular exspences of those occasions , and i pray let sir william dyers ruinate estate be a meanes to make you take heed by other mens harms ; for the matter of discontentment i appeal to no other judge then your loving wife , which can tell you what discomforts she often times findes in your long absence , & the dangers that doth fright her when she considers that you are in the company of such swaggering companions , for the latter which is the maine point i purpose to insist upon being a matter of such high concernment , first because you make that a cause of your jollity and merriment , which should be a cause of your griefe and godly sorrow , for you take delight in the enmitie and cruelty of the creatures , which was laid upon them for the sinne of man , for the earth was accursed with thorns and briers for our sins , and therefore the blood-shedding of the creatures should rather teach us to shed teares for our sins : thus did saint peter when he heard the cock crow he went out and wept bitterly : i would to god you cock-masters would make that use of these cocks . secondly it is dangerous unto your soul in regard of the time that you mispend , for if ye must give an account of every idle word that we speak matth. 12. 36. how much more of idle houres and dayes , and if you did keep as strickt an account as you do of your houshold expences you should at the weekes end see what a heavy reckoning you should make when you shall see before your eyes thus many houres of such a day and so many daies of such a week , i have spent in my vain delights , and thus few houres in the service of my god ; well , howsoever we are loath to come to this account now , yet we shall be one day , brought to it whether we will or no . thirdly it is dangerous to your soul in regard of the company with whom you do converse who for the most part are either swearers drunkards , or licencious people , now if it be most true that the prophet saith psal. 18. 25. with the holy , thou shalt be holy , and with a perfect man thou shalt be perfect . then on the contrary it must needs be , that with the wicked we shall learn wickednesse , and with the prophane we shall learn prophanes , for it is a hard matter to handle pitch and not to be defield with it , or to lie among thornes and not be pricked with them , as the prophet saith 2. sam. 23. 6 , 7. but the wicked shall be every one as thornes thrust away because they cannot be taken with hands , but the man that shall touch them must be defenced with iron , or with the shaft of a speare , and they shall be burnt with fire in the same place . therefor dear brother , if you did rightly consider of the hatefull and infectious qualitie of the wicked , it will make you stand upon thorns while you are in their company and to bewaile the hardnesse of your heart which hath not felt them such pricking thornes all this while . lastly it is dangerous to your soule in making your soul guilty of many other mens sinnes , by drawing away many a poore man from his honest labour whereby he should maintaine his wife and children , to spend his time and money in such an idle manner , but also you are guilty of many great mens sins whilest you see and hear the glorious name of god dishonoured , and dare not , or will not reprove for the same , consider what the psalmist saith . 50. 16. but unto the wicked said god , what hast thou to do to declare mine ordinances , that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth , seeing thou hatest to be reformed , and hast cast my words behinde thee ? for when thou seest a thiefe , thou runnest with him , and thou art partakers with the adulterers . vers. 22. o consider ye that forget god , least i teare you in pieces , and there be none to deliver you . now therefore i beseech you observe that those that run with the wicked and are partakers with the ungodly in their wicked delights are those whom the lord shall tear in pieces : thus you see that not onely the wicked themselves , but also their associates and partakers shall be torne in pieces in the day of gods fearfull wrath : o consider this , sweet meat must have sower sawce , and then i trust through the lords great mercy you will utterly refuse it upon those tearmes : for what were it to gaine the whole world and to loose our soules . but to conclude if neither perswasions nor exhortations may prevaile with you to break the neck of your cock-fighting pleasures , consider wel with your self that the lord hath put you as it were into the cock-pit of the round world to fight his battel against the flesh , the world and the divel , the strongest striking , the sorest hitting , and the cunningest fighting cock in the world , who is onely to be wounded with the spurres of faith and piety , and that all those that wil overcome in this battell must be thorowly fed with the word of god , and dayly breath with prayer and , meditation , whereby they strengthen their faith , and sharpen the spurres of their holy zeale : and those that neglect this meanes let them brag never so much upon their own dunghill , yet when it comes to a sound tryall they will prove themselves to be brand fallen cravens , and likewise consider that every houre idely spent , and every vaine word that proceeds out of your mouth is as it were vain to your soule : and all unlawfull pleasures like hovells upon the spurres of your devotion : and then with wisdom consider what an unlikely , or rather impossible a thing it is for a poor famisht cock pitifully vained and thus hung and hovelled to overcome a cock of that wonderfull strength and devilish spirit that you are matched withall . again suppose that those that sit in the lower ring of the cock-pit are the divells and wicked spirits , and those that sit in the upper ring of the cock-pit are the glorious angels and blessed saints , both behoulding this doubtfull battell , though with contrary affections , the angels reioycing when they see you fight this spirituall battell like a good souldier of jesus christ , the wicked spirits wohping and hallowing when they see you strike faint , fight like a craven , and fall beastly , and hear dear brother that we make our selves a laughing stock to this wicked spirits : let us pray unto our lord jesus christ to strengthen our faith and to assist us with his grace that we may resist the devill and make him flie from us and in the end tread sathan underfoot and give us a crown of immortall glorie . amen lord jesus . from your truly loving brother though he deals thus plainly with you . iohn spencer . good sir robert carr , i have receaved your letter and do acknowledge my thankfullnes unto you , that you are pleased to have so good opinion of me and my endeavoures , to commit your brother unto my care and ordering and that all things accomodate unto my desire at steeford , but i must entreat you that i may be spared for my coming to undertake care of him , so farre remoted from my family , i have my hands full of such dangerous employments ; again i hear there are suits in law betwixt you & his mother my ladie carr who should i think have the custodie of him , and therefore matters standing upon those litigious termes i should be loath to meddle with him , but if you would bring him into this country i should be glad to do you the best service i can , and the rather because his mother is very willing to commit him to my care : but if my directions may do you or him any pleasure , i have sent them unto you , and desire you to employ master dixie that hath lived with me and is acquainted with his courses : and so i beseech the lord to blesse these or any other good meanes to yeild him comfort . i take my leave and rest , desirous to do you service . john spencer . the direction for master rochester carr. ovr help is in the name of the lord that made heaven and earth . first therefore let that blessed lord be humbly fought unto by fasting and prayer . secondly let the distressed gentleman be removed from his own house unto some other convenient place well situate for aire , and spacious fields : to walk in and to do other exercises . thirdly , settle with him a religious discreet divine that may constantly pray with him and read unto him evening and morning , and upon all good occasions to keep him company . fourthly , place about him six honest servants men of good discretion and resolution that may be ready upon all occasions to aid and assist in the well ordering of him according to the dirrections of him that shall undertake the government of him , to watch with him , to ride with him , and to exercise with him in shooting or bowling or any other exercise that shall be thought fit for him . fiftly , let them be very carefull and take heed that there be no knives , nor swords , nor any wounding instruments left in the roomes wherein he comes , nor worn by others , that he may suddenly snatch at them for their temptations are many times very violent and their resolution sudden and disperate . sixtly let his apparell be decent and comely of cloth or plaine stuffe without lace or any such curious trimming , and let his attendants give him no titles of honour but in civillity call him master rotchester or master carr , and when he doth any thing wel , then to shew the more respect unto him : but other wise to slight him , as those that are set over him to command him , and not to be commanded by him . seventhly , let his diet be sparing and moderate , rather to support nature then to pomper the flesh : veale , lambe , pheasant , larkes : smelts , troutes , pike , pearch , also let him fast often and pray much , let him refraine from all kinde of wines and strong drink , if you can by any meanes , let him sleep six or seven houres in the foure and twenty and not above . eightly , let him be held constantly to prayer , and reading an houre in the morning and an hour in the evening , and if the weather be fitting and his strength answerable let him walke a mile out right in the morning and evening and if you finde him inclining to a sottish humer put an armour upon him and beat a drum before him and let one attyre himselfe like a captaine and put on his gorget and a plume of feathers in his hat & a trunchion in his hand and make to march and exercise his armes , or else set him upon a bounding horse and trot the ring and run a career : and in these martiall exercises let the captaine command him as his souldier , and if he finds him peevish and froward give him a good knock upon his helmet , and if he finde him willing and tractable then to commend and praise him . ninthly , for matter of physick , you must advise with some learned physician that doth well understand the nature of the disease , and the constitution of his body ; for otherwise he may be prodigall of blood-letting , and the want of blood may increase his melancholy : he must likewise take heed of strong vomits , that strain the head , and distemper the brain ; in my opinion bathing , and sweating , and bleeding with horseleeches the safer way . lastly , because these maladies and distempers are accompanied with a great deale of peevish crossenesse , and wilfull obstinacie , and a great part of the cure stands in the right crossing of them from those froward and furious humours , which will require great patience , and good observation ; for the generall , use all faire meanes you can devise to gain them to the good , and divert them from the ill : but if that will not prevail , you must have patience and passe it over as though you took no notice of it ; but if it comes once to this , that they do perceive that you go about to crosse them , and that you are in opposition and contesting with them , then you must follow it with all importunity , and resolvtion to subdue them , and compell them to do it ; but be sure you take them with such advantages that you prevail , otherwise the attempting of it will prove dangerous to your selfe , and make them more outragious and insolent . postscript . master dixie i pray be carefull to see these directions well performed , and then i hope you will well deserve to have twenty pound a yeer for your paines , otherwise i would be loath to perswade you to undertake such a dangerous imployment . a copie of a letter to a vertuous gentlewoman greatly afflicted in minde , which it pleased god to give unto her great comfort . blessed be god even the father of our lord iesus christ , the father of mercies , and the god of all comfort , which comforteth us in all our tribulations , that we might be able to comfort them that are in any affliction by the comfort where with wee our selves are are comforted of god : and humbly i beseech that gratious lord that he will vouchsafe for his deare sonne iesus christ his sake to open your eyes that you may behold those unspeakeable mercies and comforts that he will in his appointed time give unto all those that do fear his holy name and call upon him faithfully . cosen i have lately receaved , your letter wherein you doe acknowledge that when i was with you it pleased god you found some comfort , praised be his holy name for it , but since you have been very ill and so remaine , some causes you shew for the same , because you cannot be assured of the favour of god towards you , the reasons that you alledge , because you finde so small comfort in prayer and in hearing of the word . secondly because of your fearful temptations both past and still continuing : these as i take it are your chief reasons , & being rightly understood they wil prove so many sound arguments , to prove that you never had so good cause to rest assured of gods favour towards you , nor ever had so many testimonies of his everlasting mercyes towards you as you have now , that afflictions , chastisements and temptations are the signes of gods favour , and the markes of his children , i pray consider what the holy apostle saith hebrews the 12. the 5. the 6. my son despise not the chastening of the lord neither faint when thou art rebuked of him , for whom the lord loveth he chasteneth , and he scourgeth every son that he receiveth : and mark how he concludes in the eight verse , if therefore ye be without correction , whereof all are partakers , then are ye bastards and not sonnes , is it not strange that you should vex and torment your self , because the divell cannot prove you a bastard , but it may be you may say it is not thus in your iudgement , but then know that it is not fit for you to be a judge in you own cause , but submit your selfe unto the judgement of gods word , which is the word of truth . and beleeve his holy apostles that knew how to iudge in those cases better then you , and they will testifie that we have cause rather to reioyce then any wise to be discouraged with afflictions and temptations : saint peter 1. 2 my brethren count it exceeding ioy when ye fall into temptations , and the blessed apostle saint paul when he was tempted and grievously buffeted by sathan , for the which thing he besought the lord thrice that it might depart from him , but what was he presently released ? no but receaved this answere from the lord , and he said unto me my grace is sufficient for thee , for my power is made perfect through weaknesse , and what was the blessed man dismayed with this answer or concluded as you would do that he was out of the favour of god because his prayer was not granted ? no such matter but rather doth conclude greater comfort and assurance , very gladly therefore saith he , will i rejoyce in my infirmities that the power of christ may dwell in me therefore i take pleasure in infirmities , in reproaches , in necessities , in persecutions , in anguish for christ sake , for when i am weake then am i strong , thus you may see how the apostle out of daniel gathereth matter of comfort , and out of his own weaknes encreaseth great strength of faith , and thus must you do in these fearfull temptations not so much as cast your eyes upon your own weaknesse , nor upon the strength and power of your malitious enemy , but you must looke up with the eye of faith unto our blessed saviour iesus christ who is in the highest heavens , and whose grace is sufficient for us , and he it is who hath triumphed over sin , death and damnation , and hath tramped underfoot all the enemyes of our salvation : and therfore with the holy prophet say , the lord is my light and my salvation , whom then shall i fear ? the lord is the strength of my life , of whom then shall i be afraid ? now concerning your discomfort in hearing the word , because you take so small comfort in the promises , and are so much terrified with the judgements , this i take it proceeds partly from the errour of your judgment in misse-aplying the same , and partly from the malice of sathan who evermore labours to drive us into extremities either with eve not to fear the iudgements of god at all , or else with cain to thinke our punishment greater then we can beare , but even from your weaknesse , and from sathans malice doth the lord draw out that which may tend to his glory , and to your great comfort , and hereby i trust he hath broken up the fallow grounds of your heart and brought you to godly sorrow for your sins so that i do assure my selfe , within this short time of your afflictions ; more repentant teares have been put up into the lords bottle then in many yeers before , & account not this as a small blessing nor passe it over with a slight thankfulnesse , but take speciall notice of it , assure your selfe , this faire will not last all the yeer , and the time will come when you will desire to see these teares of contrition and shall not see them , no though you seek them with fasting and prayer , and that you may the better conceave how blessed their estate is that have a contrite heart and sorrowfull spirit , i pray consider of that wonderfull comfortable promise of the lord , isaiah . 57. 15. for thus saith he that is high and excellent , that inhabiteth eternity , whose name is the holy one , i dwell in the high and holy place , with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit to revive the spirit of the humble and to give life unto them that are of a contrite heart , who would think themselves most happy that had a heart fit to entertaine that glorious guest , thus likewise doth the holy prophet testifie psal. 34. 13. the lord is near unto them that are of a contrite heart and will save such as are afflicted in spirit and our blessed saviour in whose mouth was no guile , he saith blessed are they that mourn for they shall be comforted , and in the 16 of s. iohn verse the 20 verily , verily i say unto you ye shall weepe and lament , and the world shall reioyce , and ye shall sorrow , but your sorrow shall be turned into ioy , a woman when she travelleth hath sorrow because her hower is come , but assoone as she is delivered of the childe she remembreth no more the anguish for ioy a man is borne into the world , and you now therefore are in sorrow , but i will see you again and your heart shall reioyce and your ioy , shall no man take from you . thus you may see this godly sorrow , is but as the throes of our spirituall birth in christ , which although it may be somewhat grievous for a time yet when we see our selves thereby borne againe of water , and the spirit , and so made able to enter into the kingdome of heaven , oh how ioyfull and comfortable should this make us to be , many would with zebedees sons sit one at the right hand , the other at the left hand of our saviour christ in his kingdome , but they are loth to tast of this cup , but let us know assuredly that as he is entred into his kingdome of glory , through many tribulations , so must we follow him thorow many tribulations if ever we will come there ; you are now in the way be not weary of well doing , nor turn not backe till you come to that holy resting place , and that you may finish your course with ioy and comfort , be diligent in prayer , and observe a constant course therein evening and morning and at noone dayes , and as often as you finde your affliction to presse and oppresse your soule , then make your mone unto your mercifull god and powre out your soules before him , and especially bewaile wicked thoughts and vaine lusts where withall you heretofore so mnch delighted your selfe , and labour to mourn in secret for them , and likewise all other secret sins , and that your prayers may be more fervent , adde thereunto the holy use of moderate fasting , and this i trust through the lords mercy , you shall finde an excellent meanes to recover your selfe unto your spirituall chearfulnesse again , and be not discouraged from these holy exercises though sathan strive neversomuch to vex and terrifie you : nay though you feare the lord is angry with you , nay though you knew that assuredly , yet pray with the psasmist . psal. 80. 5. o lord god of hosts how long wilt thou be angry against the prayer of thy people . secondly having in this holy manner recomended your soule and body unto god in prayer waite upon him with a quiet minde , assuring your selfe that now the lord is to take care of you and therefore cast your care upon him , and so with a setled resolution dispose of your selfe unto some profitable imployments fitting for your calling , and this course the prophet david tooke psal. the 5. 3. heare my voyce in the morning , o lord , for in the morning wil i direct me unto thee , and i will wait : and what good successe those have that do thus attend , we may read in the psalm . 147. 11. but the lord delighteth in them that fear him and attend upon his mercy . thirdly labour for meeknesse of heart and an humble spirit , for where this grace is in some reasonable manner attayned there the heart of affliction doth breake away apace , and the danger thereof of is little to be feared , for our blessed saviour hath pronounced a double blessednesse unto such matthew the 5. blessed are the poore in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven , blessed are the meeke for they shall inherit the earth . and the want thereof hath driven many in their desperate fury , to loose their inheritance both in heaven and earth . fourthly take heed of moderate greife , and violent passions , which at this time is very unseasonable , though easily fallen into ; and therefore watch over your own heart diligently and doe not entertaine so much as a sorrowfull sigh into your heart except it be for your sin , nor an impatient word into your lippes except it be when you see god dishonoured , and then speake zealously and spare not : and furthermore you must be contented to be admonished of these infirmities by your christian friends with whom you do converse , for it may be they may discerne these things amisse in you when you doe not discerne it in your selfe being overwhelmed with the pleasing humour of sottish melancholy . lastly , that you may well remember it , you must by all meanes possible strive to serve the lord with a cheerfull heart and a willing minde , for the lord loveth a chearfull giver , and especially in matters of his holy worship : therefore when you come to hear his holy word , to fast , to pray , to religious conference or any other holy duty , strive to doe it chearefully , and to reioyce even in your very teares , for i can tell you that is a good cause to make both you and others reioyce it ; may be you thinke it strange , but read what saint paul saith to his intirely beloved timothcus and then i hope you will say i am in the right , desiring to see thee mindfull of thy teares that i might be filled with ioy . 2. of timothy the 1. 6. and for neglect of this duty the lord doth threaten many heavy judgements against the children of israel , deut. 28. 47. because thou servest not thy lord thy god with ioyfulnesse and a good heart for the abundance of all things therefore thou shalt serve thine enemies which the lord shall send uppon thee , in hunger , and in thirst , and in nakednes , and in need of all things . and thus according to my simple understanding i have satisfied your request in setting down some directions humbly beseeching that mighty and glorious god who giveth wisdome to the simple , and worketh great effects by weak meanes to give such a blessing unto my poor endeavours that his great power may be seen in my weaknesse , that you may finde such comfort to your soule , and such peace to your conscience , that hereafter you may tell unto others the great mercies that the lord hath shewed unto you in the dayes of your afliction ; and therefore say with the prophet , loe this is our god we have waited for him and he will save us , this is the lord we have waited for him we will rejoyce and be joyfull in his salvation . amen lord jesus . amen . from him that would willingly exchange some of his comforts for some of your sorrows , and some of his best delights for some your repentant teares . iohn spencer . master frankling , a man of great worth , almost a thousand pound a year , fell into a wonderfull melancholie and distraction for seven yeares , his eyes closed up , his mouth closed up , his hands closed up , so that he was like a dead corps , and almost famished , he was with master nappier that famous physician about a yeere and a halfe , but could not prevaile with him : some two yeares after he returned unto his own house , he fell into a strange humour of eating , and drinking wine and strong ale , and it is almost uncredible to report how much he did devour in a day and night : but this putting strength into him , he grew very outragious , and fell a burning , and fighting , and greatly endangered the killing of his servants , and the burning of his house ; and then my brother master gery that maried master frankl●ngs sister , entreated me to go unto him : i told him my opinion was as it was before , that he must be removed from that house , and have some others placed about him that would follow other directions ; my brother was desirous still to have me go to see him , so with his importunity i went ▪ and took with me master iones , a grave preacher , and one that had taken great pains with him : we found him in a great chamber the glasse windows broken down , and one chaire , another afterwards was brought , we sate down , my intention being at this time onely to observe his carriage , he was in a slight suit , hardly worth five shillings , like irish trouses , without a band , the haire of his head on both sides being rubbed off , and standing with his back to a great fire , and looking so terribly , that he would have terrified a man that was not acquainted with furious obiects : so having spent some halfe an hour in observing of him , master iones very respectively rose up and put off his hat , and made his apologie to master franklin because he did not come to see him , for he went to thurly : but he slighted him , and would make him no answer . then i spake to him , and said , master francklin you are much beholding to master iones for his great care of you , but he sweld up , and said unto me , sirrah how dare you speak thus unto me ? and i saw it was now time for me to get me out of my chaire , and because he should see that i was not daunted at his speeches , i drew neerer , and said , who are you that i must not speak unto you ? and thereupon he suddenly darted off the hearth , and with his filthie nailes raked over my face , and tore my ruffe ; so i was so ingaged that i must win the horse , or lose the saddle ; but it pleased god to give me such strength , that ( closing with him ) i threw him down , and gat his hand and swaked it to the boards , and called for a knife to pare his nailes , but he would then have set upon my face with his teeth ; i was fain then to loose one of my hands , and take him by the throat , and with all my strength thrattle him , but he made a hideous noise , and cryed to his brothers to help him , so one of them came and took me off , and then i washed my face ; for i had not lost so much blood in any fray since i was at the siege of ostend : afterwards he would be friends with me , for he knew that i did it as a souldier of ostend : a while after there was a meeting of divers iustices of peace and other gentlemen and there he was delivered unto me as by vertue of a commission out of the court of wards , and so we removed him to another place and set other attendants about him and gave other directions : and so after a short time he rode abroad a hunting and coursing , and grew into great jollity , and married my ladie charnockes daughter , a brave and vertuous young gentlewoman , by whom he had one daughter and is lately dead . and another beautifull young woman one wapooles daughter of southoe neer huntington and one master beadles son falling in love with her and intending to marry her , but after his father perceived it he would not give his consent , because her father was not able to give a portion according to his estate , whereupon she fell into great discontentment and fell distracted , and wandering from her fathers house in the depth of winter , and in great floudes , towards evening she came to my house , and being in the porch , made a strange kinde of noise : i went to see her , and she was wet and moiled as though she had been dragged thorow a river , i fear'd at first she had coundterfeited and thought of sending her to the constable , but afterward i had more pitty on her and caused her to be brought to the fire , and got some warme drinkes and a warme lodging , and so with in some few dayes , it pleased god she was so well amended , that she was able to declare unto me where her father dwelt , and related unto me this pittyfull story of her love : after she was able to doe some businesse i sent to her father to fetch her home , he was glad when he heard she was living , for they did thinke she had been drowned in the great floods ; when her father came we had been at prayers , and i was reading a chapter : when her father came in the young woman looked upon him very earnestly , but would neither speak nor do any reverence unto him , i used many perswasions to her , but could not prevaile , i sent out her father into another roome , but it would not be : then i called for pinsers and opened her mouth , and dealt very roughly with her , as though i would have plucked out her teeth , but it would not be : then i took a bible and bad her read the first commandment , and then she fell a reading and into a passion of weeping , and afterward spake to her father , her father intreated me that she might stay with me a while longer , and so she did , and returned to her father , and so went up to london where she had two vncles rich men . a joiner and his wife being much perplexed in minde : came over to me , it pleased god in short time to send them comfort : some yeare after their maid fell into great terror of minde , she sat up late to attend her dames child and there would appear unto her a spirit ( as she tearme ) it like a cat , and would dance about her : i tould her it might be it was a cat , she said it spake to her , i asked her what it said to her , she said , come follow me , then she would cry out , and her master rose and went to prayer with her , but the maid was so troubled that she was almost at her wits end , and her hands and her face so swelled that they glisterd , it pleased god within few dayes to send her comfort and she returned to her master , and i never heard that she was terrified with the cat since . one charitie of the same towne fell into great terror of minde , her husband brought her over to my house and made great moan for her , i enquired if she was not fierce and dangerous , he tould me no ; but only trouble of minde : i lodged her that night with one of me servauts , in the night she fell into a fit , and set upon the maide , and almost bit of one of her fingers ; the next day i sent her to saint needes with a servant of mine called godly iohn , a strong man , who went with her to saint needes to have her let blood ; but as they returned she leapt into a pond , and godly iohn had much a a do to get her out ; but it pleased god she grew well and came to lady luke to give her thankes : my lady luke had entreated my care of mad bell that came from london , but i tould my lady , that we had been with charitie . a great lady falling into great melancholie , and distracted , and having attempted divers waies to make her selfe away , the devill did put one strange temptation upon her , as they related to me : she had caused her maid that did attend upon her to bring up good store of wood , and laid it under her bed , and watched a time when her maid was gone down , and locked the doore , and made a great fire , and then unclothed her to her naked body , and kneeled down neere the flame , and was very earnest in her devotions ; the fire being great , made a great smoke , which some perceiving , came to the doore , and brake it open , and demanded what she meant to do with her selfe ; she answered she made triall of her selfe how she could indure the flames of fire if persecution should come for the profession of the gospel : her husband left her with me some moneth , and then it pleased god she went away much amended , and comforted . a temptation accompanied with a zeale for the gospel is hardly to be resisted . the virgins in the primitive church , rather then they would be dishonoured and deflowred by the heathen , would murder themselves ; it was their sin , though a zeal , but not according to knowledge . mistris clements , that married the bishop of coventry and lichfield , fell into a dangerous melancholy , and burning feaver , and terrour of conscience , and grew very weak , and past all hope of life ; the bishop and her husband sent for me to come over to her , if ever i would see her alive , for they were perswaded if any man could do her good , i was the man : it was a long journey , and i was loath to go upon such hopelesse tearms ; well , i went and found her very weak , and almost famished , for her throat was so furred with heat , that we could hardly get a spoonfull of broth down ; i saw that it was grown to that desperate state , her physicians having left her , i caused a bath to be made of milke and coole herbs , and being in a goodly large roome , in the castell caused them to make a good fire , and take her out of her bed , and put her into the bath , and bathe her head and her stomack well , and after some few dayes , using this meanes ; it pleased god to blesse it so , that she could take down her broth , and in a short time came into the chappell to make her prayers unto god , and to give him thanks ; but i told them though she had recovered her health , yet this did not cure her minde : and therefore within some few moneths after , the bishop and his lady sent her husband with her to my house in her ladies charet , and left her with me ; and so within halfe a yeere it pleased god to send her much comfort , and now she is very chearfull and comfortable . iohn crawly of luton a yeomans onely son of good worth , and judge crawly's kinsman , upon some unkinde speeches which his father gave him , fell into great melancholie , and attempted to dround himselfe , but help came in before he was drouned , and then he strove to famish himselfe , he was sent unto chesford in a cart , and then to my house to keep him from famishing ; i took a strange course in feeding him , and do the more willingly declare the manner thereof , that other physicians may do the like in case of such extremity . i prepared a wheele-barrow , a homely engin , yet very vsefull for this purpose , for the shafts gave good advantage of the binding of his legges and his armes and putting some hay in the bottom of it , and so his head might leane backward , and we stand about him , then gagged his mouth to keep it open , and fower or five with napkins and towells as though we were going to dresse a hog , made them ply his mouth with pouring in milke or posset drinke which he would as freely cast up againe into our faces and moile us pitifully ; but which did the deed , i poured milk into his nostrils and that falling , more backward upon the gollet of his throat , and that passed downe , and so fed him divers daies and kept him from famishing , and then to make him speak i caused a great fire to be made and bound his armes , behinde him , and a spit thorow his armes and held him down to the fire a basting stick and butter to bast him and made him beleeve we would roste him but he endured a great deale of heat , but it came not to blistering , and my sonne said unto me , father let us but roste his head to night for the disease lies in his head , so at the last he spake , and then we took him from the fire , and that night he took his rest well , and in the morning spake to my wife and asked for his breakfast , and kneeled downe to his prayers and read his chapter , and went to the church and behaved himselfe so orderly that i never saw any in such a desperate estate to mend so much in a short time , and so returned unto his father , and is a more active man and of better discourse then ever he was . margaret russell a yeomans daughter of good worth a young woman and very beautifull , fell into a great mellancholy , and attempting to make her selfe away she was in love with a baker and the brownistes had tamperd , with her fell likewise into a humour to famish her selfe , with whom i took the like course to feed her ; she was a woman of that strength and nimblenesse of her ioynts as i seldome are met with the like , she was very resolute to famish her self so i was carefull to break the points of the knives : but , except the lord keepeth the citie the watchman watcheth but in vain . for our harvest cart coming home and many of our neighbours with the same we went to prayer and song a psalme as our usall custome was , they fell unto such chear as it pleased god to blesse us withall , and the table being being furnish't , margaret russell sat downe at the table end upon a threshold near the store house , and he that attended her being set at the table , and making merry with our neighbours , my wife and i being in another roome with some other young women : alice pentlow , my wives servant , having been at the market , and put on her holy day girdle and knife that had a sharpe point , she went into the store house to cut some victuals , and brought a piece of pastie in her hand margaret russell made an haighing , and held out her hand as though she would have the pasty but when she was within her reach she snatch at her knife , and alice made a pittifull scritch and cryed out marget , marget , and held the knife in her hand as fast as she could but the other being to strong for her stabd her self twice into the throat so i run into the hall and wrencht the knife out of her hand , and one of them was directly upon the throat , as if one had stickt a pig , and bled grievously and we expected hir death presently : and therefore kneeld down and prayed unto god for her , and did earnestly entreat her to cry unto god for mercy ; but she seemed not to regard it , but rather forc'd her selfe to make it bleed more i wished them to bring her to the hall door and give her ayre , and there we kneeld about her at last i bid on bring me a mallow stalk and search the wound , and found it slip along by her winde pipe and so used some meanes to staunch the bleeding and heald the wound : within few dayes she went home with her father , and after grew into great bravery : and i heare is lately richly married , and that her father gave her two hundred pound , the lord give her grace to repent of her sinnes , and praise him for this mercifull preservation . a discource of mad dogs , and the danger of their biting , with some directions to cure the same . i came to cambridge to my brothers master edward spencers , as i take it , upon a friday towards the evening , that night i went not into bed , but towards morning fell asleep , and was much troubled with a dream , that i was at the receiving of the sacrament , and when the minister delivered the bread he was taken suddenly in such a maner , that he could not come at us , i was much troubled to think what we should do in such a case ; but it pleased god i waked , and then was free of that feare . my brother came presently after , and desired me to go with him to see a friend , that could not live but till eight of the clock , it was master twells his son , that was then major , my brother tould me a strange discourse of the manner of his sicknesse , about a moneth before had a little dog that bit him by the finger and repelled the skin and bled a little and healed up againe the little dog grew mad , upon wednesday the young man found him very ill , and went to two or three of the cheefest doctors of phisick , and they used their best indeavours but could not prevayle , but the young man grew worse ; when i came into his chamber i found his mother weeping , and lamenting , and two or three attending on him : he was a proper tall young man , spake strongly , and very religiously , with great apprehension of the ioyes of heaven : oh , that some good man would further me , with their prayers , i saw him so well disposed desired his father to send for some divines to pray with him : but he desired me to satisfie his desire since he made the motion to me , and so rather then it should not be done i prayed with him , the young man seemed to be greatly affected therewith and made great expressions of his ioy and comfort : he was very hot and dry but durst not drinke for then he thought he should presently die : and now let me tell you something that hath relation to my troublesome dream , the morning before i came young master twels was very desirous to receave the sacrament of the lords supper and resolved to drink the wine though he died for it , and so the sacrament was administred unto him , and they thought some of the wine went downe , but they had much a do to keep life in him : i tould his father that i feared he would fall into more extremities , but advised them not to binde him for that would make him worse : but i tould my brother that if his sicknesse grew upon this occasion he would be mad , i would have made him a bath of milke and plunged him in it over head and eares and let it run in at his mouth at his nose and his eares , and in this desperate case put it to that adventure , for otherwise there was no hope : but they had sent that morning to a skilfull man , to advise with , and was loath to make triall of it till they heard from him , and i was loath to presse it in such a desperat case ; so in the afternoone i returned home : but my brother told me that night he fell into a great rage and madnesse , and in his fits barked like a mad dog : but some houre or two before he dyed , it pleasd god to restore him to his sences againe , and he spake very religiously , and prayed earnestly unto god to pardon his sins , so departed . now to give some directionsin such dangerous cases : first , pray unto the god of heaven to blesse the meanes , and if the party so bitten with a mad dog be near the sea let them with all speed throw him into the sea water and plung him over head and eares and wash the wounds thorowly with the sea water , if that cannot be had , then take the liver of the mad dog and make poridg of it and let them eat the liver and the broath as long as it lasteth , and take the hair of the mad dog and make tents of it and put it into the holes that the mad dogs teeth made , and this i saw in experience by one richard haines , a tall young man , pursued a mad dog a mastie neer the place where i dwell , and standing at the gap the mad dog would come thorow , clasped him in his armes , intending to hold him tell his fellows came , but the dog bit him very grievously in his side and about his belly : they gat the mad dogs liver , and made poridge and stuffed the wounds with the hair and so through gods blessing the mad man did very well : crabs clawes , and lobsters claws beaten to pouder and put into butter-milk or drinke is very good . it is for the zeal of gods glorie , the desire to yeeld comfort unto poore afflicted soules , and love of my country , which moves me to write upon this subject . samuel . 16. 23. and so when the evill spirit sent of god , came upon saul , david took an harpe and played with his hand , and saul was refreshed , and was eased , for the evill spirit departed from him . now the question is whether this distemper and distraction grew out of some inordinate affection , which proud , ambitious , covetous and amorous men are subiect to fall into : the only help in this case is to pray unto god , to give them humilitie and patience , to submit themselves unto gods will , and faithfully beleeve that god will turn all crosses and losses to the best , rom. 8. 28. againe consider what thy sinnes have deserved , and thine own unworthinesse of the least of gods mercies despise the world , and prise heaven , this is the only musick to cheat the heart . secondly if it were some naturall in disposition , or distemper pheniticall , timpheticall , then materiall drugges might rectifie the humour , so a sensible musick might recreate the spirits ; so a man preferre the spirituall and inward remedies but the corporall and outward also are not to be neglected , as mirth good company or any comendable recreation is not to be refused , but undoubtedly it was an absolute madnesse or melancholy fury with some intermission , in which time he could hear advice , and do mischief , those mischeivous actes of mad men , are both guilty before god , and punishable also before men , when the force of reason is not totally transported and extinquisht . again if it were a meer obsession that daibolicall spirit troubled and vexed him , and because the divell is gods creature and at gods comand he may be said to be an evil spirit sent from god , now in case of demonaicall obsession and affliction i cannot conceave what naturall power musick or melodie sick can have for the profligation or repulsion of devils , and seeing a created art hath properly , not farre upon any proternaturall habit unlesse musick doth delight the seuce , and so draw attention , and so alter the passion : but i resolve it thus this musick cured saul not as musick , but as davids musick , no musick but davids musick could do it , otherwise seeing saul so much hated him he would not have been so much behoulding unto david having many other cunning musicians in the temple , but their musick made him more mad : god was pleased to work such an effect to bring him into favour with the king . a tractate of melancholie . it is my love to my country which incites me to write upon this subject : and since almighty god hath been pleased to make my studies and labours fortunate in this kinde , i have here presented them to the publike view ; hoping that some mayreceive good by my directions , as many have done by practice . i do not promise an addition to learning , in this respect , nor do i doubt but my long experience may adde somewhat to others readings : however , this good the understanding reader shall receive , when as he shall ( by my faithfull relation ) know the effects of those means which i have used he shall either be emboldned to use the like , or inabled by judgeing them to find out a more exellent way ; although i goe not accuratly to work , because i intend to be short , and only positive avoiding the more questions : yet to avoide confusion , i will observe this order . first , i will speak somewhat of the humours in general . secondly somewhat of the four chief in particular . thirdly will set down a method , 1. for knowledge of those things that any wise concerne the melancholy humour . 1. of the humours in generall . mans body may be divided into such parts as are contained , or such as do containe them : those which be contained are of a fluid and liquid substance , the other may be called the subject or vessels wherein these are kept and do cohere , which otherwise would beas water spilt upon the ground . to omit the parts containing , those which be contained are , humours , and spirits . concerning spirits let it suffice to know , that they are a thin , aieriall vapours substance , the chief instruments which our soul worketh withall , those which be inplanted and fixed in our solid partes from our first generation , be the seat of our native heat and the bond of soul and body : those which be after added to the former , are first naturall in the liver conveied in the vains to the habit of the body , secondly vital made in the lest cavity of the heart , partly of the naturall spirit and partly of the air which we suck in , and runneth by the arteryes through the whole body . thirdly . animal , made of the vitals in the braine thence diffused by the sinewes into the body stirring up sense and motion therein . a humour is either radicall or adventitious , that is necessary to the constitution of a thing , this to the preservation thereof . here is a fat aieriall oyly substance inplanted , inbred an inherent in the body from the conformation thereof , this we call radicall call moisture , or naturall balsome , and compare it to a candle : there is likewise an inbred and innate heate ( which word does not signifie a naked quality but a substance indued with this quality which our most wise creatour hath made sensible to our touch so long as the life lasteth ) this heat is the instrument of the soul and is likened to the flame wasting the candle , the coexistence of these two in the heart chiefly is the beginning and continuation of life , this is that perpetuall fire that continuall light ( although it never flame ) which hitherto the chymicks have in vain laboured to imitate and blow up or kindle , when nature saw this heat ever feeding upon , & consuming that moisture , she thought good to adde oyl to the lamp , and provided wayes to repaire what was spent , this she appointed should be done by the use of meat , drinke , &c. the humour thus generated is called adventitious , because it is added to the former , now whether the faculties flow with this humor or no , i will not here determine . all those humours which are continually made to renew so much of the radicall moisture as is dayly spent , are first primairly , such as proceed from the second publique concoction the liver of these , to be accounted alimentary or fit to nourish viz. blood and phlegm , the cast excrementitious viz. choller , melancholy and why , the matter of urine ; as also those which be expelled from the third and private concoction viz. teares and swet , secondarily such as proceed from the manifold concoction of the blood till it come to the most perfect degree of assimlation , viz. ros , gluten , humour , innoninatus , caubis . the two last are added without necessity , and therefore by some excluded without iniury . the four humours , blood , phlegm , choler , an melaneholy be made in the liver all at one and the same time , all by one and the same heat . the difference of them is not to be imputed to this heat but to the condition and qualification of the subiect matter , if they be mad , when which is the chylus , that is the meat and drinke concocted in the stomack , resembling perhaps no colour & consistence almond-butter , now this though it seem to be one simple humour yet it never is , no not in the greatest disease . fornelius , if this chylus be temporate in a temporate body , then all these humours in that body are temporate in their kinde , if all , then choler does not alwayes proceed from an immoderate , but sometimes from a temporate , nay a weak heat . for what mans liver how cold soever it be is altogether without it . this chylus is carried by the meseraick vains to the liver which encompasseth it with the same heat from all parts , and penetrates it equally , making of the temporate part thereof blood , of the hot part choler , of the crude phlegm , of the terrene melancholy , and all this at the same time . obiect . but phlegm is cold and crude , the rudiment and shadow of the blood and and may by further , concoction be turned into blood . ans. t is true yet not therefore necessary that we should name all halfe-concocted-blood phlegm , or think it proceedes therefrom . for then we might call the chylus our meat or whatsoever we are nourished withall , phlegm : which how dissonant from reason let the obiector iudge : moreover if the whole masse of blood were made of phlegm , and choler of that , and melancholy of this , and each thus of other successively ; there should be but one humour in us , taking diverse names according to the degrees or continuence of heat working upon it : as a river is called now thus now otherwise , by the inhabitants of this or that towne as it passeth by it . it may here seem to be required what phlegm is , but of that hereafter , thus much of the galenists opinions , of the humours : the chynicks laugh at these and their defenders , calling them humorists , &c. and count it folly to fetch the common internall causes of diseases from these supposed humours , but derive all from suphur salt , and mercury , which three principles to speak properly , are not bodyes , but plainly spiritual ( as they say ) by reason of the influence from heaven with which they are filled , nor are they spirits because corporall ; therefore of a mixed nature participating of both : and do bear anallagey and allusion as followes , viz. salt common salt acerbe and bitter the body matter art sulphur salt peter sweete the soul forme nature mercury salt armoniack acid the spirit idea vnderstanding , &c. and as they extract these third principles out of naturall bodies so they resolve them into the same , hence they argue that bodies are made of the same , and therefore must be well or ill as these shall stand affected , to say the truth , doubtles that which being present in us makes us sicke ▪ and being expelled from us we are well , was the cause of our sicknesse , but common experience saies a body full of corrupted humours , is sick , and freed from them is well , therefore here is no reason why we should not thinke those ill humours the causes of our malady : on the otherside i thinke bertinus was deceived , when he said that not a crum of salt lay hid in the body , which if any deny : i thinke he deserves to be served as lots wife . concerning the temper of the body and every part : how the elements concur to their constitution , over ruling qualities result , how there is one equall temper where the qualities of the elements do not exceed each other in quality , nor their substance in quantity , how this is the rule of all the other eight : to speak of these things is too large a discourse , let it therfore suffice to know , that when a man aboundeth with blood , he is not therfore to be called of a sanguine complection , if with melancholy humors , of a melancholy tēper , &c. for the abundance of this or that excrement does not instantly alter a mans perticular temper , & doubtles choler phlegm & melancholy , may abound in any nature : if in the liver be cold and dry blood a long time together ; it may encline the body to coldnes & drines which is a melancholy temper . astrologers refer the vari●ty of the constitutions to the severall natures of the seven planets ; and hereupon call some ioviall , some martiall , some venereall , &c. and from each planet draw two constitutions , as it shall be found well or ill disposed : as from mars , well disposed , they conclude a man valiant courragious fit to be an emperour . if ill , they argue a man rash , and foolhardy , no better then a tyrant . he that desires to know more of this , may have recourse to the learned treatise of m. perkins , stiled a resolution to a country man : in the third volume of his works . of the blood . blood is a humour hot , yet temperate , sweet and red , prepared in the meseraick veines , made in the liver of the temperate fat , and aieriall parts of the chylus and flowes from hence to all parts of the body . phylosophers affirme that we are nourished with his humour only , phisicians say with all four . the seeming contrariety may be composed by the distinguishing : thus blood is often taken for the whole masse conteined in the veines appointed to nourish the body now this masse is not homogenerall , but of a diverse nature . for the best and most temperate part of the blood is properly and in specie called blood , the hot and dry part of it is called colerick blood , the cold and moist part phlegmatick blood , the cold and dry , melancholick blood , & this diversity is answerable to the qualities of the chylus whereof it is made , therefore when phylosophers say we are nourished with blood alone they understand the whole masse contained in the veines , which neither aristotle nor any other phylosopher will deny to have parts of the foresaid qualities : these parts of the blood thus qualified , must not be taken for excrementitious , but for alimentary humours , since they all nourish the body : here two things are questioned , first whether there be any pure blood in the veins without the 3. humors 2. whether the blood be only a mixrure of the third sincere humors , so that choler or rather colerick blood in the veins should be the same with that wch is in the gall . i conclude negatively to both , and think that the blood is alwayes accompanied with the rest of the humours , which only resemble those which be separated and received into their proper vessells , this of humours is the best , the treasure of life , many excellent things are spoken hereof , insomuch that empedocles and critius say it is the soul , chrysippus & zeno say it nourisheth the soul . it is needles here to thrust in a reason among others ; why almighty god sometimes forbad the eating hereof ; as also to speak of the circular motion , how it resembles the fountains running to the sea and the sea supplying the fountains . of phlegm . phlegm ( so called by contrariety because of its crudity and that not in respect of the first concoction but of the second ) is an humour cold and moist white and without tast , or somewhat sweet . it may be called imperfect blood : for by further concoction it becometh reall blood therefore nature hath appointed no vessell to receive it : intending it for alteration not evacuation , this is the alimentary phlegm , that is the phlegmatick blood that which is preternatnrall ( as are all the following kindes ) is avacuated with other excrements having no peculiar receptacle , here note , that the filth of the nose is not phlegm properly , but the private excrement of the braine , yet i deny not but that if the body be full of phlegmatick humours part of them may passe this way , of this preternaturall phlegm be four kindes : the first is called nisipid , not absolutely as the alimentary , but in respect of the other three kindes which follow . this onely is properly termed a crude humour : t is true , every concoction may have its crudity , but this concoction which attaines not its full perfection in the stomack , by way of eminence is called crude , and that body which aboundeth herewith is of the colour of lead , such an humour also appears 1 in the sediment of some urines , 2. acid , ( tasting like vineger ) which remaine thus for want of naturall heat and is caused by cold and moist diet especially if liberall , large and out of due time : as also by the constitutions which is colder in old men and women then others , by a cold liver , cold aire , to much sleep and the want of the ordinary evacuation thereof , thirdly salt , avian thinks phegm becomes salt by adustion of bitter humours , as we finde after combustion the fixed salt of any plant as wormwood &c. galen sayes t is either from putrefaction or from the mixture of a salt whaylike humour , neither do oppose other if rightly understood , for doubtlesse the true cause is a salt whaylike moysture which is nothing but the superfluous salt of those things which we eat and drink ; do we not finde tartar in wine casks ? and is not such a substance found in the earth wherewith plants are nourished ? do we not use salt with many meates ? that then hereof , which nature cannot convert to nourishment is the matter of this preternaturall humour , which is therefore hot because salt . fourthly glasse this bifference is not taken from the taste as the other , but from the colour and consistence , it represents melted or liquid glasse : this is the coldest of these kindes yet not exactly cold , for then it should be like ice , nor exactly moist but thick and viscous pertaking of the two other qualities . of choler . choler , alimentary is the hot and dry part of the blood and fit to nourish , called colerik blood , because blood thus qualified will easily degenerate unto choler . secondly , naturall this an excrement of the second concoction , hot dry bitter and yellow , separated from the blood in the liver , conveighed to the gall , hence it distills upon the first gut adhearing to the stomack , and by its acrimony excits the slow expulsive faculty of the guts to excretion , this is that which we meane when we say choler , viz. yellow not black choler , this in cold bodyes is somewhat pale : in hot bodies somewhat red . thirdly preternaturall which is not made after the law of nature : of this be foure kinds , first is in consistence and colour like the yolk of a raw egge , this is hotter and thicker made of choler adust , so galen . second resembles the juce of leeks , such are infants stools : for milk in them is soon corrupted , garlick and onions cause it in others , third is of colour like verdigrease ; here the heate is more vehement , fourth resembles the colour which the herb woad maketh , and is made by a further adustion . the materiall cause is hot and dry diet , sweet , and fat meats . the efficient cause hot and dry constitution of the body , aire , and age which is youth watching , hunger , anger , vehement exercise , and lastly the suppressiou of naturall evacuation . of melancholy . melancholy , 1. alimentary is the fourth part of the blood cold and dry . 2. naturall : this is a humour cold and dry , thick , black , bitter , and sowre , made of the thick & druggy part of nourishment ; and according to the vulgar opinion drawne from the liver to the spleen , and transmitted from thence to the stomack , to further the actions thereof . thirdly preternaturall which differs much from the former kind , for that is a cold and dry iuce made naturally in a healthfull man , this hot and dry , tasting like the sharpest vineger , this of the four humours is the worst : this kinde of the foregoing kinds is the worst , it wasts the body , melts the flesh , it works upon the earth like ceaver upon meat , and no beast will tast thereof . but i cease to write more hereof under this head : because it shall be the subject of the ensuing discourse , unto which , this which i have already penned is but an apparatus . but having so much tired out my selfe with this sad subject ; i will here give some ease to my pen , and leave this to be supplyed by some learned phisitian , beseeching the great god of heaven and earth , the great phisition of soul and body , to give this good blessing upon this weak means , and if any poor afflicted soules receive any comfort by it : to give the glorie and praise unto god , unto whom it doth of all right belong : amen lord jesus . amen . at my lodging in black fryers . aprill . 19. 1641. many times it fals out that a loving husband parting with his deare wife , behaves himselfe like the child of some great man ; whose father hath given him a fine toppe to play withall : but afterwards perceiving his sonne to much carried away with that pleasure or too lusty in justling the topp , or else to try the boyes disposition , takes up the topp , and puts it up into his owne pocket ; whereat the boy puts finger in the eye , pouts , and cryes , notwithstanding his father perswades him to be content , tels him what fine coates he hath given him , what dainty things he hath for him , and what goodly land and houses he will bestow on him ; but for all that the sulling boy sits pouting , and lowring , and will not so much as thanke his father for all these , because he hath taken away his top , and yet when he had it , the best use he made of it , was to play with it : in like manner the lord of heaven and earth gives a man a deare wife , adelightfull companion wherein a man takes great pleasure , sometimes to make her goe , sometimes to see her sleepe , and some unkind wretches delight to scourg them with bitter words , and to justle them by cursed usage ; the lord of wisdome seeing either our too much doting affection on the on side , or our to much contempt on the other side , or else to try our disposition how willingly we would part with that he hath so freely bestowed upon us , takes away this delightfull play-fellow from us ; and we then for the most part behave our selves like sullen boyes , and murmure , and repine against the proceedings of that gracious lord that doth all things in infinite wisdome and judgement , and therefore is evermore holy in all his ways , and righteous in all his works , who giveth and taketh in his appointed time , and therefore unto him be all praise glory and thanksgiving for ever and ever . amen . amen . in this heavy affliction in parting with so deare beautifull and vertuous a wife . i have found by lamentable experience that as we draw neere the irish climate , so we have to much irish nature in us . for they are ( comonly ) very fond & loving to their foster children , & too rebellious to their governours . god the great commander of heaven & earth gives unto a man a wife to foster , & to make fit for the court of heaven , as the king of england should commit his son to a noble man in ireland , to be brought up till he be fit for his owne court , but this foster father having got the possession of this princely child , & finding it some comfort , and great honour unto him , and yet withall a great care , and a continuall watchfulnesse required for feare the child should miscary in his hands . the king seeing his fit time sends for his sonne home to his owne court , and sets him in his owne presence , and gives the foster father an honourable reward for his loving care and paines taken , notwithstanding the fosterer of this noble child is mal-content and fales a mourning , and murmuring , because he is freed of his great care : even so the king of kings , gave unto me a beautifull and blessed child to foster , and hath now freed me of that honourable charge , with full assurance that he hath taken her into the court of heaven , where she injoyes the highest happinesse , in the presence of his glorious majesty : he hath likewise given mean honourable reward for my slight care and attendance ' of gold , silver , friends & aliances ; and many divine things of her gathering for the comfort of my soule . notwithstanding , al this yet i have behaved my self like a murmuring and unthankfull rebell towards my dread soveraigne , because he hath taken away his owne deare child , and my deare charge . o lord ! what will become of so vile a rebell ; and such a murmuring wretch ? but lord , good lord , for thy deare sons sake , pardon my sinnes , and consider my frailty , and heale mine infirmities , that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoyce , amen lord iesus . amen . a speech , master spencer made upon this occasion , their was agreat discontentment , and quarell betwixt sir iarrad harvie , and his neighbours of carington , about a levie had not the god of peace , framed their heartes to peace , by the powerfull sermon that master saule that famous preacher , and the great importunity of master spencer , which tooke such happy successe , that they lived together like loving friends untill the death of that valiant knight , who 's death was much lamented , and he lies their interred in a magnificent tombe : in mr. sauls text was , beho'd how good , and how pleasant , it is for brethren to dwell together in unite psal. 133. 1. my christian friends and loving neighbours you may well thinke that there is some extraordinary occasion that makes me thus farre from my owne parish church , and assure your selves , so there is ; for i have heard of some differences , and discontentments that have beene betwixt this noble knight , sir iarret harvie , and you his neighbours of this parish , i must needs confesse i was much grieved to thinke that there should be such discord and opposition , among those whom i did so tenderly affect on both sides ; you as my loving neighbours , that dwell so neere the place where i was borne , and received my first breathing ; and this noble knight not onely our countryman but also a man of great and valour , who for the good service that he hath done to his prince and countrey with the losse of his blood and the danger of his life , in so many brave adventures in the warres , both in spaine and in the low-countrys , and against the rebels in ireland , may justly challenge a great deale of love and respect , not onely from us his native country-men , but also from this nation , and the whole kingdome ; and therefore to receive unkindnesse , and disregard from you in this place , whither he is retired in his old age , to doe good and to end his dayes in peace like a good souldier of iesus christ ; i say to receive unkindnesse and disregard from you , must needs be a great discomfort and no small provocation to a well restrained mind , and therefore to qualifie discontentments of this quality , it is no easie matter ; for the word of god doth teach us , that the discord of brethren are like the barrs of the gate of a city , strong and hard , for flesh and blood to beate through , and so i finde in searching into these businesses , that there are to many barrs that will keep out these happy guests of vnity , and amity , which i so much desire to bring in amongst you ; and therefore doe beseech the great god of heaven , that is the god of peace and lover of comfort , that he would vouchsafe to breake in sunder these iron barrs of revenge , and hard conceit , and frame your hearts to meekenesse , and to suffer the word of exhortation with patience , for sir iarret harvie as a souldier , and standing upon the point of honour , cannot passe by such wrongs & oppositions as it may be ( as he conceives ) hath beene offered unto him . for in that litle experience that i have had , i know in the point of honour , and being opposed by an enemy , a souldier must make way to revenge , though he runneth upon the point of the sword , and marcheth against the mouth of the cannon and so likewise the country people , to be contradicted in their ancient customes & to be drawn out of their road way , though an other way may be better and more commodious , it is so hard a matter to prevaile with us , as is seene by dayly experience . but if it please sir iarret harvie to lay aside the resolution of a man of warre , and to take unto him the disposition of a christian souldier , and to follow the direction of that blessed lord , and great commander under whose banner we have vowed manfully to fight , that is to learne of our saviour christ , to be meeke and lowly , love our enemies , and to pray for them that persecute us . and you on the other side , to lay aside the peevish , & froward disposition of corrupt nature , which makes us so prone to rebell against god , & and to reject his commandements , and so likewise makes us so wilfully to oppose our superiours , & to disdaine their good councell & wilfully run in those courses , that tend to everlasting destruction , as like the men of sodom , who said unto that holy man lot , that had deserved so much of them , yet when he perswaded them from that furious and beastly rage , in pressing upon his house to offer violence upon his angelicall guests , they cried out against that good man , away with him , & they said he is come alone as a stranger , and shall he rule , & judge , we will now deale worse with him , then with them ; but you know what became of them , the lord preserved his servant lott , and safely conveighed him out of the city , and smote the outragious men with blindnesse , and the next morning caused fire , and brimstone to raine downe upon them , & utterly consume them , & their city : this instance i bring to shew what we are , when we are led by the unruly passions of our sinfull nature , but now i speak to men , i hope of wisedome , and such as god hath endewed with grace ; and that will teach us to deny ungodly lusts , and to behave our selves charitably , that if any man be fallen by occasion into any sinne , yee which are spirituall , restore such a one with the spirit of meekenesse considering thy selfe , least thou also be tempted . gal. 6. 1. and therefore i besech you , if any heere have fallen by any such suddaine passion , or caused others by their provocations , o let them now acknowledge their errour , & unfeinedly desire to entertaine one another , with all love and cheerefulnesse ; and assure your selves as it is the honour of a souldier to be the first that entereth the breach , and for the country-man that hath the first blow at the ball , so it will be the honour of a christian man that shall now shew himselfe most forward to acknowledge his error , and to seeke a holy reconciliation . a prayer which master spencer doth use ordinarily in his familly , morning and evening , which he doth earnestly desire might be zealously and devoutly performed in every family in this kingdome , that are not provided of a better . o lord open our lipps , and teach us to pray , that wee may humble our soules and truely repent of all our sins , for our lord iesus christ his sake , in whose holy name onely wee presume to come unto thee to bege , and crave mercy in thy sight . o most heavenly father and gracious lord god , the father of our lord iesus , the god of mercy and salvation , wee poore creatures doe humbly prostrate our selves before the throne of mercy , confessing and acknowledging that we are miserable sinners conceived in sinne , and brought forth in iniquity ; nay wee must acknowledge wee stand guilty of that originall sinne of our first parents , for the transgressing thy holy holy commandements , and eating of the forbidding fruit : plunged themselves , and their posteritie unto shame and confusion , their soules and bodyes to be tormented in hell fire , with the devill and his angels in utter darknesse , and in that miserable estate thou might have left us all to perish in our sinnes , but this is not that we have to answere for , but we have made our selves seventy times the children of the devill more by our actuall transgressions in violating all thy holy lawes and commandements , both with vile thoughts , wicked speeches , and abominable actions , which we have done in the sight of men , to the great dishonour of thy holy name , and the utter damnation of our own soules , and the greatly endangering of others , by our evill example ; and that not onely in the time of ignorance , and practise , we have desperatly , and presumptiously , gone on in those wicked courses , which our conscience have accused us , and thy sacred word condemned us , and therefore thou mightest have cast us off in thy heavy displeasure , never more shewed pitty upon us but exposed us to the heaviest judgement this world could afford of plung , pestilence , utter madnesse and despaire , and when we have passed all the miseries of this life , then to cast us downe in utter darknesse , with the devill and his angels , to be tormented in everlasting darkenesse : but good lord , good lord pitty us , and shew mercy upon us , and teach us to bewaile our sinnes , and truely to repent us of them before we goe hence , and be no more seene : and that we may finde mercy , and favour in thy sight , remember us , oh remember us with that everlasting love of thine towards us , in sending thy eternall sonne christ iesus our blessed saviour , and our everlasting redeemer ; to take upon him our humane nature in all thinges , sinne onely excepted , to become the sonne of the blessed virgin mary , and so both god and man in one person , to accomplish the glorious worke of our redemption , by leading a most pure and holy life , by fulfilling all thy holy commandements , in one absolute and perfect manner , that he might free us from that death and damnation , that our sinnes have justly deserved , and by his death and passion , and those bitter torments , and again which he suffred upon the crosse : which neither the tongue of man , and angels is able to expresse , and shedde his precious blood , even unto death , which is of that iufinite value , to make satisfaction for the sinnes of the whole world , and of that infinite vertue , to purifie our soules and consciences , and make them as pure , and undefiled , as if we never comitted any sinne , and rose againe the third day according to the scriptures , and is ascended into the highest heaven , and there sits in all glory at the right hand of god , and triumpheth , over all the enemies of our salvation , hell , death , & damnation , and shall come from thence to judge both the quicke , and the dead , and hath oppened the kingdom of heaven to all beleivers : we doe beleive , lord help our unbeleife , and give us grace to use all holy meanes , that we grow more in faith , then ever we have done : make us more zealous for thy glory , more devout in prayer , and zealous in good workes , more carefull to keep holy the sabboth , and come more reverently unto thy holy ordinances , and walke dilligently , and faithfully , in our calling , and worke in our hearts an everlasting hatred against all sinnes and the sins especially , that wee are most prone unto by nature , and those whereunto the devill doth so eagerly tempt us , and allure us ; and those sinnes which wicked and ungodly men , that run the headlong course to hell , and damnation do inforce , perswade us , but lord let them never prevaile with us and ours , to give any liking and allowance thereunto , but ever let us hate and abhorce them as cursed workes of darkenesse : and have nothing to doe with them , and grant us grace to serve thee in holinesse , and righteousnesse all the dayes of our life , and labour to keep our soules and bodies pure and undefiled , as the temples of the holy ghost , and walk honestly and religiously in our calling , and deale justly , and charitably all the dayes of our life , that so it may be well with us at our last breathing , and in the dreadfull day of judgement , and in this confidence we do not only pray for our selves , but also for all our christian brethren upon the face of the earth , those especially that are wounded in their soules , and consciences , and those , that sufferd for the truth , sake , and those that are visited with mortall disstresse and tormenting crosses , and weare new the point of death , and prepare them for thy glorious kingdome ; good lord blesse our gracious king charles and his great court of parliament worke graciously in the heart of the king , and all his subjects , and in the heart of the prince and all his people , godly sorrow for all our sinnes , and give us grace to weepe and mourne , night and day for the sinnes , and abominations of these sinfull times , and cry mightily unto the lord to turne away those heavie judgements we have justly deserved , and continue his great mercy towards us , and inflame their hearts with all holy zeale , and devotion to advance the glory of god , and doe good unto thy faithfull ones , and on the other side , to raise up their hearts with an everlasting hatred of all sinnes , and utterly to abolish that , and to roote that out , and make them zealous to execute justice upon the malefactors , that have so dishonoured god , and labour to bring in idolatry , popery , and shed innocent blood , and persecute thy faithfull ones , that there may be that due execution of justice upon them , as may most tend to thy glory , the peace of the church , and comfort of thy faithfull ones ; and to the terrour of all wicked and prophane men , blesse our royall queen , & convert her heart more & more glorious to the love of the gospell , & that shee may renounce all popery , and idolatry , and wholly rest upon our lord iesus christ , to be her onely saviour , and her everlasting redeemer , that so the angels in heaven might rejoyce to see her true conversion unto . thee , and blesse all good meanes , that may effect the same in thy due and appointed time , and make all faithfull bishops and ministers of thy sacred word , take all opportunities to effect the same as they will answere that in the dreadfull day of judgement , good lord blesse the prince and the princesse , and all those of the royall posterity , and the prince of orringe , and his royall consort , sanctifie their hearts now in their tender yeares , with the truth of thy holy religion , and work in their hearts an everlasting hatred against all popery , idolatry and prophanesse . good lord blesse the prince elector , worke graciously in his royall heart , godly sorrow for all his sinnes , and let , oh let ( wee humbly beseech thee ) the precious blood of our saviour christ , cleanse him from all his sinnes , and make him as pure , both in soule , and body ; as if he never had sinned , but continued in the first state of innocency , and cloath him with the holynesse , and righteousnesse of our lord iesus christ ; that hee may stand ever acceptable in thy fight , and enabled to performe that great service unto thee , to burne the whore of babylon with fire , and revenge the blood of thy saints , to that end put it into the hearts of all the kinges , and princes of the earth , to fulfill thy will , to hate the whore , make her desolate , and naked and burne her with fire . good lord for the lord iesus sake , blesse the queene of bohemiah , and the queene of swedon , & those of that royall issue , that hath pleased the a long time , to humble them with a dejected state and to suffer the enemies of thy truth , greatly to insult over them , to spoile their goodly cities , to burne downe their houses with fire , and carry so many of our christian brethren , and sisters , into a miserable captivitie , and to shed so much innocent blood , but thou doest all things with infinite wisedome , thou knowest the fittest meanes to humble thy children , and thou knowest the fittest time to make them glorious in their deliverance , good lord in thy blessed time revenge their cause , and setle them againe in the inheritance of their fathers , and set them up to sit with the princes of thy people , in the meane time , give unto thy servants faith , and patience , a godly sorrow for all their sinnes , and holy zeale and wisedome , to make their inheritance sure in heaven , and lay up their treasure where that is not subject to these alterations , and changes , and confound the power of ante-christ , that man of sinne , and his adherentes , that they may not to much insult ovet thy children , nor to much disturbe the peace of thy faithfull ones , but in thy blessed time make it appeare how precious the blood of thy saints , is in thy sight , and what a fearefull accompt they shall make for the same , at the day of judgement , before the great god of heaven and earth , that art no respector of persons . blesse the good bishops , and faithfull ministers of thy sacred word especially those that thou hast placed over us , give them wisedome and grace to preach thy heavenly word powerfully and profitablely to our soule and consciences , and blesse them in their lives and conversations , that ye may be pure and peaceable , that so they may be a a blessed meanes to convert many soules unto thee . root out those that are so scandolous and ignious , and labour to bring in idolatry and prophanes , and make them evermore to finde by experience , that thou , that fittest in the heavens will laugh them to scorne , and have them in dirision . be mercifull unto our christian brethren in the palatinate in germany & other places of christendom , which suffer for the truth and the profession of the glorious gospell , and deliver them from blood thirstie men , and gratiously supply all their wants both soule and body in thy appointed time . blesse our christian bretheren in virgenia and new england & those remoted places of the world , keepe them from secret schismes , herisies and set their feete into the way of peace , and deliver them from their enemies blesse our nobles , peares , iudges of the land , and councellers of state : blefle them and their councell , that tend to thy glory , the peace of the church , and the good of the commonwealth , that their councels may evermore bee happely established , to the confusion of the wicked devises of ungodly men and women , that labour to bring in idollatry , popery , and prophannesse : oh blesse we beseech thee our afflicted brethren , & sisters , that are humbled with the sight of their sinnes , and the terror of thy judgements due unto them for the same & make clearely appeare unto them thy everlasting mercy towards them in our lord iesus christ , their blessed saviour , and redeemer , and that his precious blood doth cleanse them from all their sins , and make them as pure in thy sight , as if they continued in their happie estate of innocency , and let thy grace bee sufficient for them to support them in all their aflictions : and confound the power and malice of the devill , and all his devilish devises , whereby hee labours to drive them to dispayre , and to lay violent hands upon themselves , and make him feare and tremble with the consideration , that all these evill thoughts and wicked suggestions , which hee puts into our hearts shall be set upon his own score , and adde to his greater damnation in utter darkenesse and hell fire . blesse all our christian brethren , that are visited with the plague and other mortall diseases , comfort their soules and worke in their hearts godly sorrow for all their sinnes , and that they may cry mightily unto the lord for mercy , before they go hence and be no more seen , and give them faith to beleeve in our lord iesus to bee their saviour and everlasting redeemer , and that his precious bloud , that cleanseth from all their sinnes , and that hee will vouchsofe to bee unto them advantage both in life and death . o blesse we beseech thee , our distressed brethren that are in distraction , raging madnesse & fury , those that wee have taken the speciall care & custody of , whether present or absent , oh stay them from laying violent hands on themselves or others , & thou that art the god of infinite wisdome and power , that stillest the raging of the seas , and the madnesse of the people , stay those raging fits , and set their feet into the way of peace , blesse all our christian friends , father , mother , sisters and brothers , those we have taken the speciall care and custody of wife , children and servants , and other our neighbours and friends , amongst whom we live , grant that wee and they may labour to keepe our soules and bodies pure and undefiled , and make our houses the houses of prayer , & not a den of theeves , and keep us from all infection of idolatry , popery and prophanenesse , and if it shall please thee to bring us to such an honorable triall , grant that wee may witnesse thy truth with our best bloud . and now good lord in the name of our saviour iesus christ , we praise & magnifie thy holy name , for that everlasting love of thine towards us , in sending our lord iesus to be our saviour , for all those blessed comforts revealed unto us in thy sacred word , for comforting our soules when wee have been so neer the point of despaire , & raysing our weak bodies , when wee have been so neer the point of death , and set our feet in the way of peace when we have been running the headlong course to damnation , and blessed our labours and made us a meanes to yeeld comfort to any of our destressed brethren and sisters , and blessed bee thy holy name that hath enabled us to write this book unto our gratious king , good lord blesse it that it may tend to thy glory , to the confounding of antichrist and his friends , and the comfort of our afflicted brethren in their afflicted state . and blessed be thy holy name for blessing us with the good things of the land , thou hast given us the first and second raine , and caused the earth to bring forth hearbs for the use of man , and fodder for cattle , and caused our vallies to stand so thicke with corne and wheate ; that wee have cause to tell of thy goodnesse all the day long , and sent us peaceable dayes , that we might receive the fruit of the earth in due season , notwithstanding the feare and terrour of the schottish armies , hast given such holy wisedome to our gracious king to compose those dangerous warres with honour and safety to both nations , and blessed be thy holy name for continuing thy holy word unto us , thy holy sacrament , and thy holy ordinances unto us , and blessed be thy holy name , that continues our gracious king unto us , and our great counsell of parliament , and us with comfort and confidence , that thou wilt be graciously pleased to make a holy reformation on both in church and common wealth , and rise up with all holy indignation , to root out all idolatry , popery and all prophannesse , and papeists , atheists , and anabaptistes , that doe so oppose thy truth , & authority , & government of our gracious king , oh convert their hearts , or else confound their devices , and bring them to their well deserved ends . and blessed be thy holy name , that hast done such great thinges for us , in discovering those horrible treasons , and rebellious idolatry , popery and prophanesse , and so confounded them and brought many of them to their shamefull and well deserved ends . and blessed be thy holy name , for thy gracious providence over us this night , that we have not perished in workes of darknesse , that wee have not fallen into despaire , raging madnesse , that thou hast not suffered our houses to be burnt downe with flames of fire , or our enemies to possesse our gates : and now good lord , what shall we render unto thee for all thy mercies shewed towards us , still take up the cup of salvation , and still entreat thy mercies to be continued towards us this day , and for evermore , and that wee may be the better for thy service , and the workes of our calling , sanctifie all the faculties of our soules , and all the parts and members of our bodyes , make our will ever liable to thy will , our understanding apt to conceive of those misteries of our salvation , and our memories apt to retaine all holy lessons , & good directions , that we may make use of them in our lives and conversations : sanctifie all the affections of our hearts , our love , that it may be setled upon thee , and thy sacred word , our feare , that it may make us feare , and tremble to commit the least sinne , or doe any thing , that might tend to thy dishonour , or the hurt of our neighbour , and sanctifie our anger that it make us zealous for thy glory , and boldly to reproove sinne , both in our selves and in others , and sanctifie our sorrow , that it may be termed into a godly sorrow for our sinnes , and the abominations of this land . and sanctifie all the partes and members of our bodyes , that our eares may be dilligent to heare the word of god and all good councell , that our eyes may be dilligent to see and observe thy glorious workes in the creatures , and to admire thy infinite wisedome , and power in the creating of them , and thy mercy and goodnesse in preserving them for our use and comfort : our speeches , that they may be gracious and tend to thy glory , and the edifying of one another in our holy faith , and keepe us from lying and swearing , that whereunto by nature we are so prone : and sanctifie our tast and smelling , that wee may not abuse them to drunkennesse , and gluttony , and sanctifie our handes , that we may imploy them dilligently in our calling , and that they may be ready to defend the poore fatherlesse , & widows : sanctifie our feet , that they may be swift to heare thy word , to visit the poore in their afflicted state , and sanctifie our bodyes , that wee may keep them pure and undefiled all the dayes of our life , for these and other graces , which we stand in need of , lord mercifully supply them for our lord iesus sake , in whose most holy name , in whose most holy wordes we pray unto thee as our blessed saviour hath taught us , saying ; our father which art in heaven &c. finis . the history of the moderne protestant divines containing their parents, countries, education, studies, lives, and the yeare of our lord in which they dyed. with a true register of all their severall treatises, and writings that are extant. faithfully translated out of latine by d.l. praestantium aliquot theologorum. english verheiden, jacob, fl. 1590. 1637 approx. 212 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 199 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-11 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a14345 stc 24660 estc s119100 99854307 99854307 19721 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a14345) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 19721) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 1120:3) the history of the moderne protestant divines containing their parents, countries, education, studies, lives, and the yeare of our lord in which they dyed. with a true register of all their severall treatises, and writings that are extant. faithfully translated out of latine by d.l. praestantium aliquot theologorum. english verheiden, jacob, fl. 1590. lupton, donald, d. 1676. holland, henry, 1583-1650? heroologia anglica. [32], 364 p. : ports. (metal cuts) printed by n. and iohn okes [are to be sold by andrew crooke at ye bare in paules church yard], london : 1637. a translation of "imagines et elogia praestantium aliquot theologorum" by jacob verheiden. the section on english writers was drawn from "heroologia anglica" by henry holland. translator's dedication signed: donald lupton. with an additional title page, engraved. bookseller's name from engraved title page. variant: imprint lacking bookseller's name and address. running title reads: the history of the moderne divines. includes bibliographies. reproduction of the original in harvard university. library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng theologians -bio-bibliography -early works to 1800. theologians -portraits -early works to 1800. reformation -bio-bibliography -early works to 1800. reformation -portraits -early works to 1800. 2003-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-04 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-09 andrew kuster sampled and proofread 2004-09 andrew kuster text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the history of the moderne protestant divines , containing their parents , countries , education , studies , lives , and the yeare of our lord in which they dyed . with a true register of all their severall treatises , and writings that are extant . faithfullv translated out of latine by d. l. the righteous shall be had in everlasting remembrance . london : printed by n. and john okes , 1637. to the right worshipfull knights , sir paul pindar , sir iohn wolstenholme , sir abraham davves , sir john jacob , farmers of the custome-house to the kings most excellent majesty , all happinesse wished right worshipfull ▪ that my intention was devoted to your worships , appeares by this presentation , and that my intention hath rightly directed my presentation , will easily bee seene ; for where could these faithfull witnesses that are dead , have had fairer hopes of tuition , than by you who are living witnesses of the same truth most of them have constantly suffered for : some of them were exoticke , some natives , all of the same faith : gods word commends the protection of the former ; grace and nature both pleade for the other : some of them that were strangers , had faire protection and good provision in this kingdome , and were publickly grac'd & allowed in the famous schooles of our vniversities ; and some of ours , upon the change of religion , found presently a reciprocall requitall in their chiefest hans towns : both one and the other were worthy agents in the church of god ; and their workes ( the never dying monuments of their fame ) will praise them in the gates ; they were so eminent lights , that my encomium will rather séeme to lessen than augment their lustre ; however , i have striven ( as much as i could ) to revive their memories from the grave of oblivion . and ( right worshipful ) if you but receive as much comfort by reading of their workes , as i have done by the edition , i am fully perswaded , your worships will rest satisfied , and i shall not be taxt for presumption : disdaine not therefore , i pray you , to patronize those , whom i doe beleeve ere this , god , the father of the faithfull , hath registred for his own sonnes in the booke of life . i neede not blazon your worthy and religious actions to the world , when as both church and state adorned , and greatly beautisied by them , doth , and will , for ever eternize your pietie and vertues to succeeding posterity . i onely wish the rich men of this age , either to imitate your doings , or be ashamed that they follow not such eminent examples : goe on still i exhort you , and in due time you shall reape the recompence of reward . your worships that so much love gods temple , i hope , will vouchsafe to receive and entertaine these famous men , who have been the lords embassadors in his church here , and are in the celestial temple with him in glory : so wishing all your worships the like happinesse with his saints , when you shal be dissolved : and praying for your prosperity on earth , with length of dayes ; i referre my selfe , and all my endeavours to him and your worthy selves , being , your worships in all christian offices , donald lupton ▪ to the christian reader . i have here sent to the view of the world , the lives of these reverend moderne writers , whose actions in their studies do sufficiently declare what they did ; and what they suffered in the cause of our saviour jesus . i found them in latine , and i thought it might bee some profit to our times to make them speake english : they were in their times great antagonists to the roman cause , and it is pitty their memories should perish , or that they should not bee generally knowne , who generally did so much good in the church of god , against all oppositions in their dayes . for their effigies or icons , they are not of my invention , but taken to the life : some by albertus durerus , and the others by that famous henry hondius : onely i desired to have them done in lesser plates , for the profit of the buyer . reade their lives without prejudicate opinion , admire their diligence and vigilancy , imitate their vertues and pious performances , praise god for raising such stout champions for defence of the truth , and blame not mee , who have laboured thus much for your sakes , and will ( with gods blessing ) doe more for your profit : who am yours , d. l. a catalogue of all the names of the moderne divines mentitioned in this booke . out-landish writers . berengarius . pag. 1 iohn hus. p. 1 hieronymus pragnensis . 8 erasmus roterodamus . 14 martinus lutherus . 21 philippus melancthon . 30 hulricus zuinglius . 40 iohannes eoculampadius . 50 paulus fagius . 60 martinus bucerus . 68 andreas gerardus hyperius . 81 wolfgangus musculus . 90 ioannes calvinus . 99 augustinus marloratus . 108 petrus martir . 115 hieronimus zanchius . 122 martinus chemnitius . 132 aretius benedictus . 140 henricus bullingerus . 147 rodolphus gualterus . 158 theodorus beza . 166 franciscus junius . 178 the english writers follow . iohn wickliffe . pa. 190 john bale . 197 john collet . 207 william tindal . 214 john bradford . 221 hugh latimer . 226 nicholas ridley . 231 thomas cranmer . 237 edwine sands . 246 alexander noel . 251 john juel . 258 matthew parker . 269 john foxe . 276 edmond grindal . 286 laurence humphrede . 293 gervase babington . 299 thomas holland . 304 robert abbat . 311 john whitguift . 319 thomas becon . 330 james montagu . 339 william perkins . 347 william whitakers . 356 beren garivs behold the effigies of this great and worthy scholler , whose hand and eye poynt towards heaven , whither his saviour jesus is ascended , in the sight of his apostles , and shall be there untill his second appearing to iudgement : he is placed first , in time , amongst these famous witnesses : this is that berengarius , a french man , and arch-deacon of gant , who was powerfull in the scriptures , and expert in the writings of the ancient fathers of the church , and who with admirable wit and wisedome did prove , that christ was not carnally in the blessed sacrament , and so hindred mainly that grosse error of popish transubstantiation , which doctrine hee confuted out of gods holy word , and by the authority of the sincere fathers , so that his writings went farre and neare , with approbation and admiration , to wit , into italy , germany , france , and other territories ; and this was in the yeare of our lord , 1020. whereupon , leo the ninth cald a councell at vercellis , and did in it condemne this doctrine of berengarius , so also when nicholas the second was pope , he was cald to a councell held in rome , where by the bitter menacings of that pope , he was compel'd to a recantation : which did mightily reioyce the pope : insomuch , that he sent his recantation to the cities of italy , germany , france , as it plainly appeares in that noted chapter , which beginnes , ego berengarius de consecratione distinct secunda . wherein , these words , full of blasphemy , are by the consent , iudgement , and prescipt of that councel to be read , i doe beleeve , that the body of our saviour jesus christ is sensibly in the sacrament . et in voritate manibus sacordotum tractari & frangi , & fidelium dentibus a●teri . but it is not the malice of thy adversaries ( oh berenga●ius ) that can wrong thy innocence , for thou hast by holy scriptures and fathers confirmed thy words , and convinced their madnesse ; the purity of it appeares , even in the writings of thy adversaries , even by lanfranck himselfe , that longobard , who was a man so full of subtilty and policy , especially in schoole divinity , that it tooke name from him : nay , he was so eminent in learning , that the learning of st. augustine and hierome , was not esteemed of , and so this lanfrank proved the popes champion , in this question of transubstantiation , which is the soule , as it were , of the masse , and thereupon he had the arch-bishopricke of canterbury given him ; nay , for defending this so stif●ely , pope alexander the second , the successor to nicholas , did rise up to honour this lanfranck , and indeede the upholders of the romish cause doe all mainly bustle to defend this : so that pope urban the fourth , in the yeare 1264 did appoynt a solemne feast for it , with processions , torches , banners , and all other solem●ities , and did give upon that ●ay many indulgences , and ●ut thomas aquinas to prove ●t to be necessary by tipes , figures , and shadowes out of the old testament . but berengarius testified sufficiently his griefe and wonderfull sorrow , and assumed new courage , and so defended to the last what formerly he had written , and so departed this life a famous champion of christ iesus : hee sleepes in peace till the last trumpet shall awake him to meete our lord at his comming to iudgement . and his effigies as you see , was had by the helpe of master francis molineus , who was a deane , a learned man , and studious of antiquities . berengarius writ a booke of the body and the blood of christ in the sacrament , in which he defends and confirmes his tenents by the scriptures and fathers ; and in the same booke hee doth write of the antichristian church , and renounces his former yeelding absolutely , and tearmes that councell plainely , consilium vanitatis . for so benno a cardinal in hildebrands life , saith , that then the romish clergy , was full of treachery and avrice . ic●annes hvs . this famous instrument of gods church , seemes to have taken his first vigour and courage from our english wickliffe : he was borne in prague , the metropolis of the kingdome of bohemia , and proved a famous preacher in that slourishing vniversity , he was pastor of a church in that towne , called the bethleemish kirch , where his doctrines did iudicially oppose the popes proceedings ; hence pope alexander the fifth , condemned him for an heretique . in his time things tooke not good successe in the church of rome , for the cardinals falling out amongst themselves , they chose three popes : divers kings tooke it ill that the church of rome should be thus divided . then in the yeare of grace , 1414. there was a councell held at constance , for the redresse of these mischiefes , which now were got into the roman church . to this councell was iohn hus called , by the authority of the emperor sigismund , who had past his word faithfully for his safe comming thither , and for his returne from thence ; he obeyd the emperor , and trusted to his promise ; but comming thither , neither was the emperor sigismunds promise availeable for his safety ; for it was contradicted by that councell , and he cast into prison , with this censure . first , that faith in promises was not to be kept with heretiques , and that though sigismund promised him safe conduct thither , yet he promised not to safe guard him at his departure , and if he had , it was of no validity or force . the bohemians intercede for him , but in vain ; with such eagernes and zeale did those roman agents prosecute their cause , and therefore adiudged both his person and his workes to bee burned : and when some of them would have had him shaven , and others denyed it ▪ so that they could not agree : hus pleasantly turning to the emperor sigismund , said , though all these my adversaries bee cruell enough , yet they cannot agree in the manner of the performing it . at the last , they set a triple crowne of paper upon his head , and so upon the sixth day of iuly , the yeare following being 1415 , this great scholler was burned . the bohemians upon his death rose in arms , and their generall was ziska , a slout and valiant captaine , and they had admirable successe . this john hus did write divers workes . they are printed at nurenburgh , in montanus and nuberiis shop . 1558. 1. an explication of the lords prayer , the creed , the ten commandements , of sinne , marriage , of the knowledge and love of god , of the seaven deadly finnes , of the lords supper , &c. 2. of peace , 68. epistles written a little before the councell of constance . 3. a treatise of tithes . 4. a treatise of the church . 5. a booke of antichrist . 6. of the kingdome , people , life , and manners of antichrist . 7. of the unity of the church , and of schismes . 8. an history of the acts of christ , out of the 4 evangelists . 9. an history of the passion of christ , with notes . 10. explication of the 7 first chapters of the 1 ep. to the cor. 11. vpon the canonicall epistles of the apostles , 7 commentaries . 12. of worshipping of images . he spoke at his death , that within a hundred yeares , god would call them to account for his sufferings . hieronymvs pragensis this worthy instrument , hath his name from the place of his birth ; for hee was a bohemian by birth , and as you view the effigies , so may you conclude of his physiognomy ; there is one that commends him deeply , and yet not without cause ; the words he useth of him , after he had praised his outward livelinesse , are , erat hieronymus vir animo , corpore , forma , eruditione , virtute , & eloquentia insignis , id est , hierome was a man famous for spirit , comlinesse , learning , vertue , eloquence : his place of abode was at iberling , not past a dutch mile distant from prague : when hee stood in defence of hus and his country , hee could not get protection from the emperor , but in his travaile was taken by one croft , & so bound was carried to constance ; here the whole troope of his adversaries being met , furiously set upon him . 1. gerson , that noted chancelor of paris , publickly produc'd many things , and obiected some new tenents and propositions , which he had formerly delivered in the city of paris , and that by those his new conclusions , he had disturbed the whole vniversity . 2. the chancellor of the vniversity of collen obiected ●ginst him , an oration which ●e had formerly delivered in ●hat place . 3. the master of the v●iversity of heidelbergh , carrying himselfe loftily in his chaire , declared that he had uttered some strange opinions in that accademy , and so did divers others . this hierome of prague thundered against the ill lives of the romish monkes and friars , demonstrated their pride , covetousnesse , lusts , &c. of that state : whereupon he was condemned to be burned , for which he was resolutely prepared , as it appeared by his valou● and contempt of death , ( eve● at the stake it selfe ) for stan● ding at the stake bound , the executioner kindling the fir● behinde him , hierome cald to him , and bade him kindle i● before his face , for ( said he ) i am not affraid of it ; for had i , i had not come hither at this time , having had so many opportunities offered mee to escape it . the whole city of constance admired this mans constancy , and christian-like magnanimity in the suffering this death . it is not certaine , whether he set out any thing in print or not , but certaine it that many brave manu●ipts , and worthy orati●s , had in sundry vniversi●s , with his letters , and ●nclusions , went to the fire ●s wel as tho author , who de●ivered up himselfe a pleasant ●acrifice into the hand of his saviour iesus , whom hee so dearely loved , for as one sung of him , that he should say at the giving up of the ghost . hanc animam in flammis offero christe tibi . erasmvs roterdamvs h●e was borne at roterodam , upon st. simon and judes eve , and lived 57 years ; his mothers name was margaret , at zevenbergen : his fa●hers name was everard : he had two unckles almost ninety yeares old a peece : his education was at deventer schoole nine yeares ; peter winchell being his tutor , once chiefe schoole-master at goud , so sent to st. hertogen bosch : here he was solicited to enter into a cloyster to turne monke , they gave him time to resolve , he answered , hee was too young to know the world , un●itter ▪ to know a cloyster , because as yet , hee knew not himselfe : yet at last he had bound himselfe to that life , being drawne by the strong perswasions of one corneliu● his chamber-fellow at deventer , living then at stein , nere goud ; hee told him the holinesse of that kinde of life , rich furniture and copiousnesse of bookes , the rest and tranquility of minde , with the angel-like society of the brethren : the first that tooke notice of him , was henry bishop of bergh ; but this bishop missing ( for want of meanes ) a cardinalship , gave leave to erasmus to travell to paris , with promise of yearely maintenance , but failed , a fault too frequent in great men . here falling sicke by ill dyet , hee returned to his lord bishop , and was nobly entertained , and recovering health , hee went amongst his owne friends againe into holland , but staid not , but departed againe for paris : he was afraid to study divinity , least mistaking the grounds , hee should be termed heretique . but the plague raging in paris a whole yeare , he went to lovaine : but he had seene england before , and his noble maecenas , the lord montioy , where he was wonderously entertained , and writ a booke in the praise of the king and all england , he● he had the favour of th● arch-bishop of canterbury but from hence he went into italy , and stayed at bononia now hee was almost forty yeares old ; hence he went to venice , where he printed his adagies , so he passed to patavia , thence to rome , where he was much esteemed of by raphael cardinal of st. george ; he had meanes enough if henry the 7. k. of england had lived : at last hee returned for brabant , and was admitted into charles the 5. emperors councell , by the helpe of iohn silvagius great chancellor . all his workes are printed ●t basil , sold by hierome ●roben . 1540 in folio , being ● . tomes . 1. containes those things which ●onduce to the latine and greeke tongues . divers translations of greeke orators , poets , tragedians , morals , similes , colloquies ; declamations , epigrams . 2. 1000 of proverbs , his attica musa , and cornucopia full of all manner of learning . 3. his epistles . 4. containes institutions of manners , apothegmes , institutions of princes , with divers others . 5. enchyridion of a christian souldier : his commentaries upon some psalmes , prayers , institution of christian marriage : many treatises theologicall . 6. the new testament , with annotations . 7. paraphrases upon the new testament . 8. some things translated out of greeke into latine out of st. chrysostome , athanasius . origen . basill . 9. many apologies against detractors of his workes . fabricius . clauditur exigua rotorodomus humo . martinvs lvthervs this luther was borne in a dorpe in saxony , named isleben , his parents were not eminent , either in wealth or honour ; he was brought up carefully in the liberall arts , and being of an excellent wit , and a great courage and magnanimous spirit , he left the cloystered life , being graced with the stile , of doctor in divinity , ( not unworthily ) having a charge of soules in saxony : he preached gods word constantly and zealously : he spoke much against indulgences and popes pardons , and bulls sold by teccelius : he received his degree of doctor , by the intreaty of the duke of saxony , and the vniversity , being then of the order of st. augustine , by the hands of doctor stupitius , who seeing luther something willing to refuse that degree , told him , that god had much worke to be performed by the wisedome of learned men , and intended to use his labours in that kinde . maximilian the emperor reading with great delight the disputations of luther against teccelius , gave speciall command to doctor pfefinger , that hee should defend this man safely : for he saw that his labours and workes would in short time be very necessary and usefull against the iniuries and contrivings of the bishop of rome ; but luther going on , did write couragiously and sharply against that see ; insomuch , that he is reputed of many to bee carried with too much zeale : i lee was called to appeare at wormes , but being disswaded from the iourny by some of his friends , in regard the adverse part were strong , he answered resolutely , that he would appeare in that place , though all the tiles of wormes were divels . luther spoke some things , which he said should come to passe , and so indeed they fell out . onewas , which he writ to scnepfius doctor of theology , that after his death , many of his followers would fall away ; and that , what neither would bee done against the church of god , by the turke nor the pope , should be done by some of his followers : who hating those of the reformed religion , did maintaine thar vaine idoll of vbiquity with brentius and smedelinus , and leane to the romish cause : another was , that when charles the emperor should oppose against the gospell of christ , that then he would lose all his domiminions in low germany , and so it came to passe in his son philips reigne , who striving to advance the roman cause , lost the spread eagle , for thereupon the united states revolted , and defended their owne liberties against the houses of spaine and austria . well , after a great deale of labour to advance the gospell , and to abate the power of rome , this great heroicke spirit , gave up his spirit into the hands of his maker . all or the most part of his works are printed in high dutch & latine by sigismund sueve : most of those that are extant , are here numbred . 1. proposition of penitents and indulgences . 2. a disputation of the popes power . 3. an epistle to silvester cajetan . 4. epistles to them of breme , to the brethren in holland , brabant , flanders , and to charles the fift , duke of saxony 5. an appeale from the pope to a councell . 6. of the freedome of monks . 7. the difference betwixt true bishops and those of the romish church . 8. of the priest hood , lawes , and sacrifices of the pope , against henry the eight king of england . 10. against those who deny marriage to priests . 11. axiomes of erasmus for luthers cause . 12. confession of faith exhibited to the emperor at the commencement at augusta . 13. an apology for the augustan confession . 14. epistles to his friends , to princes , to divers common-weales , to cities , to churches . 15. to councells . 16. disputations . 17. sermons . 18. the whole bible tran●ated out of hebrew into high dutch. — — mens quêis , impura venite , hic etenim 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sordida corda lavat . philippvs melancthon fitly may this man follow luther , being both at one time famous ; and indeed luther could never have found a more faithfull and trustier friend , than this melancthon : for luther was vehement , melancthon milde ; luther couragious , melancthon warily fearefull ; luther was fit for the pulpit , melancthon for the schooles ; luther onely for plaine divinity , melancthon was excellent in all manner of philosophy ; so that his fame was onely among such as were full of zeale that way , but melancthon was renowned of all that heard him , or reades his workes : for his learning was not onely theologie , but philosophy , and even an encuclopaedia of all variety of learning : by these two wittenbergh was as famous as rome it selfe : these learned men fetcht students from severall quarters to heare them : melancthon bred up many a rare schoolemaster , and excellent theologues , which furnished most part of germany : his fame was not onely great for learning in the city of wittenbergh , but also in forraine parts , nay with his very adversaries , who not onely praised him for that , but also for moderating his spirit , and for his dexterity in the managing all his actions and disputations , so that king francis , the first king of france , ( whose name will bee ever fresh among the learned ) sent an embassador and letter , in which , and by whom , hee earnestly desired melancthon to come into france , that by his conference and councell , matters pertaining to the church and religion might bee fairely decided , and determined , where he used such affability and sweetnesse of behaviour and carriage , that he wrought there very effectually , and gaind the love , even of his opponents : he was the most earnest against that poynt of transub●tantion , and no waves favoured that poynt of the lutherans , either of the vbiquity , or consubstantiation . so when this learned light had laboured hard to reform both doctrine and discipline of the church ; and when hee had exercised his pen to the publishing of many rare and profitable works to the church of christ , hee yeelded up his soule to god : all his writings were printed at basil , in the yeare of grace , 1544. and 1545. by hervagius , being 5. tomes , the names of which , i have here inserted . tome 1. 1. commentaries upon genesis . 2. vpon the proverbs of salomon . 3. briefe explications upon some psalmes . 4. annotations up st. matth. upon st. iohn . 5. vpon the first epistle to the corinths . 6. an apologie for luther , against those parisians . 7. against anabaptists . 8. sentences of the fathers of the lords supper . 9. of the qualification of princes , of the law-suites of christans . 10. of the tree of consanguinity and affinity of the church of synods , and of ecclesiastique writers . tome 2. 1. commentaries on the epistle of st. paul to the romans . 2. another on the same . 3. schoole notes on the colos. 4. common places of divinity . tome 3. 1. a confession of faith. 2. a catechisme . 3. a briefe method of preaching : of the office of a ' preacher , and of attaining to skil in divinity . 4. theologicall disputations . 5. an epistle to carthusianus of vowes . 6. an epitome of the doctrine of the ' reformed church . 7. an epistle to iohn earle of weda . tome 4. 1. philosophicall workes . 2. commentaries upon the soule , cald de anima . 3. vpon aristotles ethicks . 4. epitome of morall philosophy . 5. vpon aristotles politiques . tome 5. 1. a latine grammar . 2. a greeke grammar . 3. logicke . rhetoricke . 4. enarrations on hesiods workes . 5. words fit for measures and arithmetique . 6. epigrams . these were printed by hervagius ; but there are divers others set forth by christopher pezzelius professor of the schoole of breme . 1. an admonition and premonition to those that reade the alcoran . 2. a defence for the marriage of pri●sts . 3. commentaries on daniel . 4. a discou●se on the nicene creed . 5. vpon luthers life and death . 6. many schoole notes on cicero's epistles . 7. translations of demosthenes and p●utarch . 8. greeke and latine epigrams . 9. two tomes of epistles . 10. cario● his chronologie enlarged , with many histories . by these it is evident , that this worthy instrument did not hide his talent , but did imploy it to the glory of god , and the profit of his church , and so dying in the lord , hee rested ●om his labours . hvlricvs zvinglivs . as all germany admired their luther , so all sw●zerland this zuinglius : he was as famous at tigurum , as the other at wittenbergh . zuinglius , as himselfe testifies in his worke of articles , which is full of learning , began to preach the gospell in the yeare of christ , one thousand five hundred and sixeteene : he spoke much against the popes pardons and indulgences : this poynt hee learned well of his tutor doctor thomas witenbach of biele , when hee read upon it , at a publicke session of divines at basil. zuinglius was solid in all manner of learning hee was a diligent searcher of the scriptures , which he might the easlier doe , because he was so expert in the holy tongues : he was admirable for refining his owne language ; he was such an engine against the popes uniust proceedings , that their side wanting ability to hurt , did as to luther , by great gifts and presents , as so many baites , strive to allure him to their side and cause , and these enticements proceeded not from meane persons ▪ but from cardinals themselves , who lay at basil as embassadors : there fell betwixt luther and zuinglius a sharp contention , about the vbiquitary presence of christ in the eucharist . zuinglius constantdenyed : and it is thought since , it had beene better for the church of god , if luther in that poynt had wanted a pen to write , or a tongue to speake ; but such insirmities accompany the best of men . this zuinglius feared neither dangers nor death , so that hee might preach the word of god. he stir'd up the courages of the souldiers for the cause of christian liberty , maintaining at that time a sharpe warre : h● put them in good hope of immortality ; he exhorted , he comforted them , nay , hee accompanied them , and dyed in the head of the battell . so that one truely saies of him , quod pro aris & focis sanguinem profuderit . but his enemies cruelty towards his carcase , is remarkable , that when he was kild , they tooke his body and cut it in foure pieces , and committed it so to the fire . this battell in which zuinglius fell , was on the 11. of october , in the forty fourth yeare of his age , and of our lord , 1531. his workes are contained in foure tomes , which are large witnesses for him , and will in all ages speake to his commendation , which are here reckoned . tome 1. 1. a worke of articles . 2. an exhortation to the whole state of switze●land . 3. a supplication to the bishop of constance . 4. an epistle to the senate , people , and church of toggia . 5. of the certainty and purity of gods word . 6. an answere of the tigurines , to the bishop of constance , of idols and masses . 7. an answere to valentine of the authority of the fathers and doctors of the church , of images and purgatory . 8. institutions for youth . 9. a good shepheard . 10. of two-fold justice , divine and humane . 11. of the choyse and free use of meates , and of scandall . 12. of the virgin mary . 13. some treatises of gods providence . tome 2. 1. of baptisme against anabaptists . 2. epistles to ecchius faber , and balthazar hubmeir . 3. of originall sinne , to vrbanus regius . 4. of the authors of tumults and seditions . 5. to matthew albert of the lords supper . 6. of true and false religion to king francis. 7. a sermon of the confession of his faith . 8. another to perswade to perseverance . 9. an account of his faith to charles the 5. 10. an epistle to the princes of germany , of the reproaches of ecchius . 11. an exposition of christian faith , written to francis the french king , a little before his death . 12. acts and conclusions of some disputations . tome 3. 1. commentaries upon genesis , exod , isaiah , ieremiah . 2. psalter , out of hebrew into latine . 3. an apologie for translating of it . tome 4. 1. annotations upon the 4. evangelists , and the history of our saviours passion . 2. vpon the epistles of st. paul to the romans , corinthians , philippians , colossians , thessalonians , hebrewes , 3. vpon st. iames , and first epistle of st. iohn . these are the catalogue of this famous instruments labour : his time was short , but he put it out to the best use : so that though his yeares were but few , yet they were well imployed : one gives him this eulogie . pastorem piet as fletque virum patria . 〈◊〉 oecv●ampadivs . i should here have placed zuinglius , but i doe not strictly observe the series of time ; as the one , so this was famous in the city of basil in switzerland : hee was a german by birth , in the towne of winsperg , which is a city of note in the francs : he tooke the degree of master of arts in heydelbergh , and applyed himselfe to the study of the civill law in bononia : hee learned greeke of capnio or ruetline , who is not much affected , and he got his hebrew from a certaine spaniard : when he supplyed the place of a faithfull shepheard in germany , he was called to basile : erasmus of roterodam in making the annotations upon the now testament , tooke his advice , and used his helpe much in that worke , and thus much he doth ingenuously confesse , that by the helpe and industry of a great divine , ( viz. oecolampadius ) not onely eminent for piety , but also excellently well seene in 3 languages , did he set forth to the world that booke . oecolampadius being urged much by his friends , admitted that degree of doctor in divinity . some roman sophisters at basil could not affect him : he read publicke lectures in that city , at the desira of the senate upon the prophet isaiah : when he applyed himselfe to preaching , he did performe that office with singular meeknesse and learning : he turned st. chrysostome into lat●e in this place , and theophylact , whom he stiles , chrysostomes little bee , for gathering such choice flowers and sweet sentences , from that mellifluous father of the church . he defended the truth against ecchius and faber ; in which controversies , he gained love and commendation , even from his adversaries : many famous cities sent to him for advise in the ordering of the churches affaires : witnesses of this , are the cities of berne and vlmes ; hee was admirable successefull in appeasing sects and contentions that arose in the church : ●ake in particular , these commendations of him , for godlinesse of life , and sweetnesse of behaviour , for writing , for his commentaries , for his preachings , for confutations & translations ; he got not onely a great renowne to himselfe , but also brought singular profit to the church of god. this oecolampadius so holy for life , so learned , so qualified in affaires ecclesiasticall lived not long , but at the age of 49. yeares , within a few weekes after zuinglius departed from earth to heaven , and dyed at basil in the end of november , in the yeare of grace , 1531. his workes are these that follow . 1. annotations on genesis . ▪ 2. exegesis upon iob. 3. commentaries upon isaiah . 4. commentaries upon ieremiah . 5. enarrations upon the lamentation of ieremiah . 6. homilies upon the same in high dutch , translated into latine . 7. commentaries on ezekiel . 8. on daniel . 9. annotations on hosea , ioel , amos , ionas , and on 2 chapt. of micha . 10. commentaries on the three last prophets . 11. certaine sermons on the psalmes . 12. annotations on mathew , iohn , epistle to the romans . 13. explanations on the hebrewes . 14. 21. sermons upon the 1. epistle of st. iohn . 15. a booke of the genuine sence of these words , this is my body . 16. an exhortation to the reading of gods word . 17. of the dignity of the eucharist . 18. of the ioy of the resurrection , and the mystery of the trinity . 19. a speech to the senate of basil , for the reducing of excommunication . 20. divers sermons upon severall occasions . 21. that the masse is not a sacrifice , against images . 22. a catechisme . 23. annotations upon st. chrysostome . 24. little treatises of prosper . augustine and st. ambrose against free-will . 25. enchyridion to the greek tongue . 26. treatises against anabaptists , as charles n. balthazar hubmeir . 27. genesis turn'd out of the septuagint . 28. 66. homilies of st. chrysostome upon genesis . 29. annotations upon the acts , corinthians . 30. a treatise of almse-deeds . 31. a treatise against iulian the apostata . 32. of true faith in christ. 33. an epistle of gennadius the patriarch of symony . 34. of the praises of st. cyprian , of the love of the poore , of the praise of the machabees . 35. gregory nyssen of the life of moses . 36. an epistle of nicephorus , of the power of binding and loosing . 37. enarrations of theophylact upon the foure evangelists . 38. a tract of st. basil against vsury . 39. a metaphrase of gregories bishop of neo-caesaria , upon fcclesiastes . most of these latter works were translations out of greeke : all these do lively shew , that this o ecolampadius was a painfull labourer in the lords harvest , during the time of his pilgrimage ; and so having finished his worke , he went to rest in the lord. pavlvs fagivs . it is very sit , that paulus fagius should bee reckoned amongst the famous protestant writers , having done and suffered so much for the cause of jesus : he was bucers collegue , they both came out of one and the same city into england at one and the same time , he was borne in a towne of smal repute in ▪ the palatinate , and both bucer and hee had but low estates ; but by study and labour this raised his name ▪ and maintained himselfe : he got the skill of the hebrew admirably well , by the frequenting of capnioes lectures , and afterward became excellent in it , by the meanes of capito , publicke professor of the same tongue in the famous vniversity of strasburgh ; he prov'd so rare in this language , that few hitherto have gone beyond him : this fagius was cald from strasburgh to heidelbergh by the count palatine of the rhine , to order the churches affaires , and to preach the gospell , which hee performed with good successe ; but in those civill turmoyles , in which the emperor had the upper hand , all came to nothing ▪ at which time the face of the church was disconsolate in germany , but in england it did flourish wonderfully ; the emperor bringing that idolatry and superstition into his land , which was driven forth of england , so that those doctors which the emperor disliked and hated , were welcome and ioyous to king edward the sixth , and to his nobility and people . this fagius teaching in cambridge , but even a short time , was admired of the whole vniversity , for this fagius when he had long bin pastor in strasburgh , came with martin bucer into england 1549. and dyed in november , whom presently after bucer followed , not without the great griefe of all learned and pious men ; there are some who thinke them both to be poysoned , but as they both liv'd alike , so they were both alike in their deaths ; and in queene maries reigne they were both digd out of their graves , and were burnt , finding the cruelty of the romish sect , even when they were laid to rest . this fagius dyed at forty five yeares of his age , whose losse both church and common-wealth felt , and mourned for : his workes which hee writ , are these that follow . out of the hebrew tongue imprinted , translated by fagius , are these following . 1. a worke call'd thisbi , from the authour this bites elias , contayning 702. words , explained in this worke . 2. two short chap. or apothegmes of the fathers , which containe godly and profitable sentences of the old wise hebrews , with some schoole-notes . 3. morall sentences of ben-syra alphabetically , the nephew ( as the iewes beleeve ) of ieremy the prophet , with a commentary . 4. tobias the hebrew sent new from constantinople , translated . 5. hebrew prayers used by the iewes at solemne feasts , by which wee may see the old rites of that people , which both christ , and the evangelists have performed . a little treatise of faith , of a certaine iew turned to christianity , 200. yeeres since . 7. a literall exposition of the hebrew sayings in the foure first chapters of genesis , with a chaldaick paraphrase of onkel on the same . 8. a booke of the truth of faith , full of learning , written by an ▪ . israelite many yeeres since , to shew the perfection ▪ of faith of christians . 9. the 4. first chapters of genesis , with the german version for yong hebricians with schoole-notes . 10. commentaries on some of the psalmes by r. david kimhi . 11. an hebrew preface to elias a levite , his chaldee lexicon . 12. thargum , or a chaldaick paraphrase upon the five bookes of moses , translated with short and learned annotations . 13. a collation on the chiefe translations which are in use upon genesis . 14. an isagoge , or short introduction to learne the hebrew tongue . these are the labours of this learned man , which are great , if you either weigh the languages , or the shortnesse of his life . martinvs bvcervs although luther in his time was very eminent in the church , yet this bucer for his piety , learning , labour , care , vigilancy , and his writings , is little inferior to him ; both of them were singular ornaments to the gospel ; both high dutch , the one of isleben , the other of selestadt ; both of them monkes , the one of the order of saint augustine , this a dominican . he was stiri'd up first by luthers sermon , preach't before the emperor at wormes , and so of a dominican , was turned to a famous protestant : what labours he sustained in . propagating the gospell of jesus christ , those that read his bookes , ( the never dying monuments of his care ) may easily iudge : his workes and his ecclesiasticall history doth declare how farre he excell'd in judgement for writing , for prudence in counselling , for his happinesse in setling churches , for dexterity in compounding controversies , for his moderation in disputations : who , although hee was pastor of a church in strasburgh , and taught divinity there for the space of twenty yeeres , yet other churches , meetings , commencements , and publicke acts did experimentally feele his wit. i would to god , he could have taken away that contention betwixt zuinglius and luther , which he did strive to effect ; and i wish , that those of collen ( at the earnest , and often intreaty of herman veda arch-bishop ) had admitted this man to have taught theology there , it would certainely have proved to the overthrow of the roman cause in that city ; which thing had beene effected , had that westphalian gropper kept his coop , and had not beene admitted into the court of that prince ; for hee could not endure either the arch bishop , or bucer , and so did endeavour to betray them both : but what the arch-bishop of colen desired , but could not effect , was done by our reverend arch-bishop of canterbury , tho. cranmer , primate , and metropolitane of all england , a man singular for learning and piety ; for hee endeavoured greatly by often sending of letters , to bring first bucer , and then paulus fagius from strasburg into england , edward 6. that pious prince , being then king of england , of whom an historian hath given this encomiasticke line , tantae regem expectationis europa saeculis nunc aliquot nullum habuit : that is , that europe in long time had not such a king for great hopes . well , that bucer which colen reiected , england entertained , and the famous vniversity of cambridge with great applause admitted into her schooles , in the yeere of our lord , 1549 who , when hee had for the space of two yeeres , with the generall approbation of all learned divines , professed in publicke commencements , the last but one of february he departed this fraile life , being in the yeere 1551 , and of his age 61. hee was bravely interr'd , and had many learned epitaphs made of him ; his body after it had beene buried 5. yeeres , was taken up , and burned in q. maries reigne at cambridge . the church of god felt , and lamented this mans losse , if we may beleeve calvine in his epistle to viretus , writing thus of him , quam multiplicem in bucero iacturam fecerit ecclesia dei , quoties in mentem veni● , cor meum prope lacerari sentio : as often as i doe thinke what a manifold losse came to the church of christ by losing this bucer , my heart almost doth rent in pieces . this testimony proceeding from such a man as calvin , doth sufficiently declare the worth of this bucer . i have here to his life , set downe his labours in writing , arguments sufficient , and strong enough to proove his worth and wit , which if all were put together , would make nine large tomes . 1 the 〈◊〉 translatidon● of hebrew into latine , with a double exposition of matter , and words : wherein so●e ●ommon places are handled ou● of the scriptures , and fathers . 2 enarrations upon the 4. evangelists . 3. metaphrases upon the epistles of st. paul. 4. decisions , and reconcilement of hard places of scripture , and of those that seem● to be rep●gnant o●e to another . 5 commentaries on the romans , and ephesians . 6 sophonias out of h●brew , with a commentary . 7 a preface to the fourth tome of luthers postills . 8 of the true doctrine , and discipline , and ceremonies of churches . 9 acts of the conference had at a commencement at ratisbone . 10 a defence against the bishop of abrince . 11 writings of bucer and bartholmew latonius . 12 things disputed at ratisbone , in the yeere 1546. 13 treatises of the reconciling of the churches had at ratisbone , 1541. at spires , 1544. at wormes , 1545. and at augusta , 1548. 14 a gratulatory letter to the church of england . 15 an answer to two epistles of stephen gardiner , bishop● of winchester , concerning the single life of preists . 16 answer● to the objections of murnerus , and some others , concerning the lords supper . 17 of the best way to have councells . 18 a treatise of restoring church-goods . 19 translation of the greater postill of luther , and pomeranius his commentaries on the psalmes into latine . 20 an apologeticall epistle to those of east frisland , and other parts of low germany . 21 an apology against brentius of the lords supper : that images are not to b●e had in churches , out of the scriptures , fathers , and the edicts of the most religious emperors . 22 an epistle to the university of marpurgh , of heresies , and hereticks . 23 the confession of the foure cities of stra●burgh , constance , menning , and lindare . 24 of the baptisme of infants . 25 of the mystery of the eucharist . 26 of a nationall synod . 27 of a councell against coccleius , and gropperus . 28 of the false and true administration of the lords supper . of offering masses . care of the dead . of purgatory against latomus , 2. bookes . 29 causes of the absence of famous divines from the councell of trent . 30 of the kingdome of christ to king edw. 6. 31 lestures at cambridge upon the ephesians , set forth by tremelius . 32 of the power and use of the holy ministery . 33 a treatise that none ought to liv● to themselves . 34 answers to his adversaries objections . 35 an exposition of the disputation betweene 〈◊〉 tegerius , and the ministers of strasburgh . 36 an 〈◊〉 to the ministers of switzerland . 37 psalter translated into dutch. 38 the causes of the reformation a● stra●burgh , with an admonition to frederick count palatine . 39 an admonition to the ministers of strasburgh , to beware of the articles of james cautius , which t●nd to anabaptisme . 40 acts of the disputation of those of strasburgh , against hofman . 41 a pr●paration to a councell . 42 a greater catechisme . 43 a lesser 〈◊〉 into latine by by sleidan . 44 a 〈◊〉 to the book● of the office of magistrates . 45 colloquies of the ministery of the church . 46 of the true office of a pastor , and of the cure of soules . 47 three s●rmons upon the gospell , come unto me all , &c. 48 colloquies upon the peace of religion at nurrenburgh , and francford . 40 of the jewes , whether , and how far to be suffered among christians . 50 of church-goods , and who are the right possessors of them . 51 an answer to a dialogue against protestants . 52 all the acts and writings for the reconcilement of controversies in religion , from the emperor , o●her princes , and the popes legats , faithfully collected , and expounded . 53 the reformation at colen . 54 a first and second defence of the ●eads of religion , handled at bonna , and other places in the archbishoprick of colen . 55 a consutation of the new faith set forth at lovaine , in 32. articles . 56 a defence of the colenish reformatiō . 57 a defence against gropperus . 58 against the bull of paule 3. and his legats demands . 59 a godly admonition to the emperor , princes , and other states of the empire assembled at wormes , about reformation of the church . 60 against the restoring the masse , and the other sacraments , and cerem●nies of the roman church . 61 impediments of reformation . 62 against the sophisters of colen . 63 of the conference of ratisbone . 64 an exposition upon the 120. psal. 65 a treatise of afflictions of our times . 66 a refutation of calumnies . 67 a sermon at berne . 68 of the ministers , and sacraments . 69 luthers commentaries upon the two epistles of peter , translated into dutch. 70 some writings of sturmius , of the eucharist in latine . 71 retractations with commentaries on the gospell . 72 other manuscripts of his which hee writ in england . all these his workes doe shew , that he was a painefull wo●kman in gods vineyard , and did all he could , to propagate the gospell of our saviour . andre●s gerardvs hyperivs . this gerard takes part of his name from the place of his birth , being hyperia , a faire and strong towne in flanders , amongst the dutch divines he is one of the most elegant , when he was a youth hee was of an excellent wit , and addicted to study , he left not , till he had the encuclopaedia of sciences and arts : his father was a lawyer : hee got much by ●oachim ring●lbergh of antwerp , a youth of excellent endowments , whose praise this gerard set forth in a speech made to the parisians ; when this gerard had studied at paris and lovaine , he tooke a view of italy , france , germany , spaine , and england : at last being appoynted professor of marpurgh , hee there setled himselfe , which vniversity first found him an excellent philosopher , and afterwards a rare divine : his skill in philosophy , is seene by his succinct , perspicuous , and learned exposition upon aristotles aethicks , pleasant and profitable , to be read both of divines and philosophers : he propounded it to the students of marpurgh . even as melancthon was for saxony , so was hyperius for hassia , he was well read in the histories ecclesiasticall and polyticall , both of fathers , schoole-men , sophisters , but most of all , hee gave himselfe to the reading of st. chrysostome , in whose sentences , examples ; figures hee tooke singular pleasure , and made singular profit : he is commended for his mode●y , patience , and constancy , which doe appeare in his writings , for he seemes not to be at any time carryed away with ●pleene or affected zeale ; and these three he termed his warlicke engines , by which he did resist his adversaries , defend himselfe , and conquer them , taceo , fero , spero . he dyed at marpurgh , in the yeare of the worlds redemption , 1564 , and of his life 53. in the calends of february , when he had professed 22. yeare● in that city : one hath wittily cut his epitaph in this verse . flandria quem genuit , hassia n●stra tegi● . his writings which he left to the world , as a rich legacy , are these here set down . 1. a commentary on the 20. psalme , of the honour ▪ due to magistrates . 2. on the 12. psalme . 3. a method for a preacher and study of divinity . 4. vpon the romans . 5. of the reading and meditation of the scriptures . 6. method of theologie . 7. theologicall topicks . 8. chatechisme . workes in two tomes . tome 1. 1. of the study of the scripture . 2. of the institution of colledges anew . 3. a tryall of students in divinity . 4. of chatechising . 5. of iustification by faith , and of the faith and workes of a man iustified . 6. of beneficence to poore . 7. of ●easts , their lawfulnesse , and unlawfulnesse . tome 2. 1. of the duty of hearers . 2. of gods providence . 3. of examining our selves . 4. of the marriage of ministers . 5. whether their opinion be to be received , that hold babylon in the apocalips to be 〈◊〉 . 6. the opinion of the 〈◊〉 , greekes and latines , of the digestion of the decalogue . 7. some things of the truth of apostleship , doctorship , and other degrees . 8. of the sacraments . 9. vpon that of the romans 1. god gave them up to a reprobate sence ; and how god punisheth one sinne with another . 10. schoole notes upon 10. books of the i thicks of aristotle . 11. physicks . 12. logtcke , rhetoricke , arithmeticke , geometry , cosmography , opticks , astronomy . after his death , his sonne lawrence hyper and john mils put forth these in print . 1. short annotations on the prophet isaiah . 2. commentaries on the gallathians , ephesians , philippians , colossians , and theslalonians . 3. vpon timothy , titus , philemon , iude , upon the hebrewes . so that he prosited not onely the church of god in his life time , but he also is usefull being dead , so that both in life and death i may say of of him , that he lived and dyed to the glory of god , and the good of his church . wolfgangvs mvscvlvs . amongst other famous lights of gods church , this musculus is not of least ranke or dignity : his parents were but o● meane conditions , and low fortunes ; he was borne at dusa , a town of lorraine , neare to alsatia : by labour , study , and industry he became excellently qualisied in the knowledge of the scriptures , and so entred into the ministery . from 15 yeares of age to thirty , he lived in the palatinate : in his first proceedings , he was protected as it were , under the wings of reinhard of rotenbergh , chiefe governour of litzelstein ; those his adversaries had then crush'd his hopefull proceedings , by the authority of the elector of mentz , but that they durst not then meddle in the iurisdiction of the palatinate , for which he gives thankes , in his dedicatory epistle to his common places , which he writ in his old age to fredericke count palitine of rhene , being for holinesse and piety , called by the name of pius : hee was called to exercise his ministery in the city of strasburgh ; he was a most welcome colleague to bucer : thence hee went to preach at augusta : hee was much supported by vrbanus regius a learned divine , in the yeare 1531. which was the next yeare after the declaration of the augustan confession ; in this church of augusta he exercised his gifts , and gave himselfe to the study of sacred letters , and ecclesiasticall histories , by turning those ancient doctors and fathers out of greeke into latine , and also by setting forth commentaries , which in those times gave much light to the ignorant . but musculus , by the command of the emperor , was forced to leave augusta , and by reason of civill warre , in which turmoyles hee came to berne ; here hee had most christian entertainement , and was received courteously : here he was a publick professor of divinity for 14 years ; he was alwaies either writing or printing some things which did conduce to the enlargement of christs kingdome , till at last , in the yeare of his age 66. and of the incarnation of christ. 1563. he changed this life for a better , not dying without sufficient testimony both of great labour and learning in his never dying workes . a catalogue of them , i have here presented to your view . 1. commentaries on genesis . 2. enarrations on the psalmes . 3. commentaries on mathew in ●hree tomes . 4. vpon iohn . 5. vpon the romans and corinthians . 6. vpon the philippians , colossians , thessalonians , and the first of timothy . 7. his common places . 8. vpon the commandements . 9. a booke against coccleius . 10. a treatise whether a raw christian may communicate with the papists or not , in 4 dialogues . 11. how farre iniury is to bee suffered of a christian. 12. of oathes against anabaptists . 13. of the germane warre 1546. translations of greeke authors . 1. commentaries of st. chrysostome upon saint paules epistles . 2. epistles of st. basil , and nazianzen , and some other fathers . 3. ethicks of basil. 4. of solitary life . 5. many homilies . 6. schoole notes of basil upon all the psalter . 7. thirty nine epistles of cyril . 8. a declaration of those 12. anathemaes in the ephesine councell . 9. opinions of nestorius confuted by cyril . 10. synopsis of the scriptures , out of athanasius . 11. one hundred and forty questions out of the old and new testament . 12. a synopsis of theodore bishop of tyre . ecclesiasticall histories . 1. ten bookes of eusebius of ecclesiasticall affaires . 2. five bookes of eusebius of the life of constantine . 3. eight bookes of socrates , the ecclesiasticall historian . 4. nine bookes of zozomen . 5. two bookes of theodore . 6. sixe bookes of euagrius the monke . 7. out of prophane histories , five bookes of polybius . berna professor publicus occubuit . ioannes calvinvs . he was born in france , the breeder of many great wits , & was endued with excellent parts , both of nature and learning , which appears by his indefatigable labour , cares , studies , watchings . the sirst piece that gave the world notice of his ability , was his institutions , dedicated to francis the first , king of france : philip melancthon cald him the divine , by way of excellency : at first he addicted his studies to the civill law , under the government of peter stella at aurelium , who was then counted the ablest professor of that way , in the study of this calvine prosited exceedingly , so that h●e might have had faire preferment by it : but he intended another course , for he was bent to study divinity , which he did at biturigum , under volmarus a germane , who lov'd religion , and favoured the professors of it : hee also learnd the greeke tongue and the hebrew at basil , by the company of symon grynaeus , and wolgangus capito ; you shal have his commendation , in a few lines bestowed upon him by a ▪ great divine : for a piercing ludgement , for stating divinity questions , for experience in church affaires , for readinesse and purity in his writings & preachings , for labour and study , for resolving of doubts , for his disputations , for constancy in adversity , humility in in prosperity ; for despising honour , promotions , for parsimony , continency , sobriety , piety , few , or none have paralleld , or out-stript this man. his labours are so well approved of in the church , that his writings are extant almost in most parts of the christian world : witnesse france , germany , italy , transilvania , poland , england , scotland , spain , and other kingdomes , provinces , & common-wealths : hee did stiffely write against the papists , so that it is said of him , as st. augustine was famous in the old church , so calvine in the moderne . campian the iesuite was a bitter adversary to him , he wanted not divers others , for it hath alwayes beene knowne , that the upholders of truth never wanted enemies . he dyed of a consumption , contracted by extraordinary fastings and watchings , in the yeare of gra●e 1564. and of his age 54. being borne in the yea●e 1509. on the tenth of july , his workes are here registred . commentaries on the old testament . 1. vpon genesis . 2. harmony upon the foure books of 〈◊〉 . 3. vpon iosuah . 4. vpon all the psalmes . 5. vpon isaiah . lectures . 1. vpon ieremiah . 2. vpon the 21 chapt. of ezek. 3. vpon daniel . 4 vpon the lesser prophets . vpon the new testament . 1. his harmony on the evangelists , upon iohn , acts : all the epistles , to the hebrewes , peter , iohn , iames , iude. sermons . 1. vpon deuteronomy , upon the decalogue , iob , 119. psalme , canticles , isaiah , 38. chapters , on the eight last chapters of daniel , upon 10. 11. chapters of the epistle to the corinthians , upon the galathians , ephesians , timothy , titus . of the nativity , passion , death , resurrection ascension of our saviour christ : vpon gods election and providence : vpon genesis , upon 1. and 2. of samuel , upon the 18. chapt. of the 1. of the kings . vpon many psalmes , upon iosuah , isaiah , ieremiah , ezekiel , and lesser prophets : upon 123. psalmes . other workes . 1. institutions . 2. of the eucharist . 3. vpon the victory of jesus 4. genevas chatechisme . 5. of reforming churches . 6. of scandals , a forme of confession of faith : his answer to sadolets epistle : of free-wil against pighius : against the articles of the sorbonists . acts of the synod of trent . against anabaptists . against libertines . of superstition . 4. sermons of flying idolatry , of bearing persecution , of the beauty of gods house . of gods worship . against judiciall astrologie . a defence of the orthodox faith , ●oncerning the trinity ; of pre●estination : the ministers of tigurium and geneva their agreement about the sacrament , a meanes to preserve concord , a true communicant . epistles , answers , councels . seneca of meeknesse enlarged with a commentary . avgvstinvs marloratvs this famous scholer was borne in the dukedome of lorraine , and was a monke of the order of st. augustine , but at length comming from that profession , he proved a very famous shepheard in the church of christ jesus ; his manners , modesty , piety , watchfulnesse , learning , were singular ornaments : hee having studied the body of divinity in france , came to lausanna , which is a famous towne of the lords and states of berne , scituated hard by the lake of lemana , and is a place famous for divinity , and excellent rare printing . this place marlorate thought very convenient to settle in ; then entring into the ministery , he preached hard by that famous lake of the allobroges , in the towne of geneva : he profited much in the knowledge of sacred letters , as appears by his studies and writings : who almost knowes not that hard piece of worke ? his commentaries , or a catholicke exposition upon genesis , psalmes , isaiah , and the whole new testament , including the sentences of the ancienter fathers of the church with wonderfull skil , order , brevity , and perspicuity ; so that his labours may be termed , as one saith not unfitly , a library for divines . he brings in so many of the fathers opinions , as ornaments , and at last adds his owne : the gospell was preached by him all along the river rhodanus , and the lake lemana , and the west parts of france : this marlorate ( amongst other divines ) was cald to the conference of possen , 1561. which though it did not work that reformation in the church , which was wished , yet it made the cause of the professors of the gospell , not to be so odious as formerly it was , & many did love the truth , being by these meanes discovered , which ignorantly before hated it , and the professors of it . in the yeare 1562. the city of roan was besieged by the adverse part and wonne , wherein marlorate was planted ; but he , with three other principall citizens were put to death , not unworthily deserving the name of a martyre . this was done the thirtieth of october . , of his age the 56. whose workes being ever living monuments , are preserved to the benefit of the church of god , and are here set downe . 1. a catholicke and ecclesiasticall exposition of the new testament . 2. an exposition upon genesis . 3. an exposition on the psalmes of david . 4. an exposition upon the prophecy of isaiah . 5. his thesaurus , or treasure-house of the whole canonicall scripture , digested into common places : also the hard phrases alphabetically printed , which usually are met withall in the scriptures , by the care and industry of william feugerius of rohan professor of divinity , to whom marlorate left this worke , being not altogether perfected at the time of his dissolution . and thus this famous scholler , having beene a painefull writer , and afaithfull preacher , finished his course , and expects the second comming of his lord jesus . petrvs martyr . this martyr was a florentine : his fathers name was stephen vermilius , and mary fumantine was his mothers name , both of ancient extraction , and good meanes : so also they both had a great care that his youth should be well seasoned with letters , being their onely childe : his mother understanding the latine , interpreted terences comedyes to him : imitating those worthy matrons of rome , as the gracchi , lelii , catuli : so also others of latter yeares have beene renowned for this act , as olympia morata an italian , jane , dutchesse of suffolke : but especially the lady bacon , who turn'd into english the apologie of the church of england made by worthy iewel bb. of salisbury . this martyr in his youth followed not the vaine pleasures and delights of italy , but followed vertues lore , and addicted himselfe to a monkes life which then was held holy and blamelesse . so he was admitted into the house of the cannons regular of the order of st. austin , which for learning and discipline was at that time held the purest in all italy , he studied at patavia , and was very able in philosophy , schoole divinity , greeke and hebrew : being a monke regular hee preached at 26. yeares of his age at brixia , then in the most famous cities of italy and france on this side the alpes , at rome , bononia , pisa , venice , mantua , bergom , in the colledges of his order he expounded philosophy , and sometimes homer , and divinity also . he was made abbat of spoletto for his learning , then pr●efect in st. peters colledge at naples , then visitor generall of his order , and last hee was designed prior of of st. fridrian at luca. but leaving luca hee came to tigurum , where bullinger , pellican and gualter , did give him free intertainment . then he was called to strasburg , at the intreaty of bucer , where hee professed divinity five years . thence at the instance of archbishop cranmer , and by the will of king edward 6. hee was admitted into england , and so to oxford , where hee read the divinity lecture . here he did great good while he stayed , but in the daies of queene mary , hee was expeld england , and returned to strasburg ; but contentions arising there also , he with iuell went to tygurum , and at the last there as in a haven hee laid himselfe to rest . 1562. 11 , of november . of his age 63. what he was , his workes will declare to all that will read them , which i here have placed . 1 a cathechisme or exposition of the creed . 2 commentaries on the first epistle of saint paul to the corinthians , at oxford . 3 vpon iudges . 4 vpon the romans . 5 a defence of the doctrine of the eucharist , as it is approved by gods word , ancient fathers councels . 6 a disputation of the eucharist at oxford . after his death these bookes are extant . 1 commentaries on the first of kings , and on the 12. first chapters of 2. kings , 2 on genesis . 3 a little booke of prayers out of the psalmes . 4 a confession of the lords supper to the senat of strasburg 5 his common places , distributed into foure classes . 6 orations , sermons , questions and answers . 7 epistles theologicall . 8 commentaries on exodus . 9 commentaries on the lesser prophets . 10 commentaries upon the 3 first bookes of aristotles ethicks , with some reserved manuscripts . hieronymvs zanchyvs . this zanchy followed peter martyr , being bred in the same colledge , this martyr was so eminent for his gifts , that hee drew by his example and piety many worthy men , to leave that state of life under popery , and to embrace the gospell . amongst other , lacisius , first professor of latine in italy , afterwards of the greeke tongue at strasburgh : that worthy gentlman celsus martingen , being extracted from a noble family , having had earles of that name , which professed the greek tongue in his colledge , and after governed the italian church in geneva discreetly : and so emanuel tremelius , that famous interpreter of the hebrew tongue . and this zanchy , who together with peter martyr taught the word of god in the city of strasburgh , was excellently well seene in the writings of the ancient fathers of the church , and in philosophy ; which , when hee prooved against the omnipresence of christs body against the ubiquitarians , was not approoved by some of that sect ; for which cause zanchy , as well as martyr , left this city , and came unto the famous vniversity of hydelbergh , where the whole vniversity , together with the godly prince frederick , shewed their love and favour . but this point of ubiquity then prevayling , those that withstood it , were forc't to remove . so zanchius came to be pastor of clavenna , which is a towne of rethia , indifferently famous , not farre off from the lake of comen , through which the merchants of italy , and other places , bring their wares , and expose them here to sale . which place lying neare to italy , and pleas nt for its scituation , many italians , who quitted themselves from the see of rome , lived here . at last he preach't the word of god at newstadt , a towne of the palatinate , under the protection of that religious prince cassimere : at length age and infirmities accompanying it , comming on , this prince provided fairely for zanchius his maintenance : a prince he was addicted to religion , and the quiet of the churches . zanchius and sturmius mainly oppos'd ubiquity , and strongly defended the augustan confession ; they were both very old , and a little before zanchius dyed , he used this speech to sturmius : oh worthy sturmius , if ever , now is the time for us to open our eyes , and turne to the lord ; and looke up to heaven , where our blessed redeemer iesus reignes with the blessed spirits , knowing , and hoping assuredly , that shortly we with those saints , shall also be with the lord iesus . a worthy divine speech , and fulfilled shortly after in zanchy ; for hee dyed in the yeere of christ , 1590. in the calends of november , in the city of heydelbergh ; being aged 76. and sturmius was 80. whom he followed . zanchies workes are these that follow . 1. divine miscellanies , with with the explication of the augustan confession . 2. his judgement of the controversies about the lords supper . 3. of the sacred trinity , bookes 13. in 2 parts : in the first , the orthodox doctrine of this mystery is proved , and confirmed by gods word . in the latter ▪ all oppositions of the adversaries are answered . 4. an answer to a little booke of an arrian . 5. an answer of william holdet , of the visions of christ to st. stephen and st. paul after his ascension . 6. of opening schoolemen in the church , with a speech to the study of the sacred scriptures . 7. of christian religion and faith , to vlysses martengius , earle of barch ; and patritius venetus . 8. a compendium of the chiefe points of christian doctrine . 9. a perfect treatise of the sacred scriptures , proved succinctly out of the ancient fathers . 10. of the incarnation of christ , wherein both his omnipresence is handled , and vbiquity confuted accurately in two bookes . 11. of the divine nature , and of his attributes . 12. of the workes of god in sixe dayes . 13. a worke of mans redemption . 14. a commentary upon the prophet hosea . 15. commentaries upon the epistle to the ephesians , collossians , theslalonians , and saint iohn . 16. some observations of physicke , printed with aristotles workes in greeke , found in that part which treates of hearing . and thus after many labours , and diligent travell in the worke of the lord for many yeeres together , did this noble zanchius commend himselfe to his saviour jesus christ. his motto upon his coate was , sustine , & abstine . martinvs chemnicivs . this name of martine hath oppos'd the proceedings of the church of rome much , especially three ; viz. martine luther , martine bucer , and this martine , who did chiesly oppose the proceedings and determinations of the tridentine councell . in his first proceedings hee followed luther and melancthon ; hee was well furnished in the knowledge of the liberall sciences ; by the study of the mathematicks and philosophy , hee found an easier passage to theology . hee was much addicted to a kinsman of his , george sabine , who professed at regio montane , where hee made this chemnitius chiefe over the library of the prince of the borussorum . when hee had exercised himselfe a while at wittenbergh , hee was called to brunople , a free and famous city of saxony . this man by his learning and preaching made the city of brunople as famous for piety , as trent was for her councell . this was hee that examined the decrees of the new fathers of trent , by the writings of those ancient fathers of the church , and layd them to be tryed by the rule of gods word : this worke made him famous , and disparaged the adversaries proceedings and conclusions . many others have done well upon that subiect , but his it was that most wounded and galled that side . hence they have beene striving to answer it , but have not beene as yet able ; but have left it off , as too hard a taske for them to performe . this was hee that stood up among the first , to discover the nature , arts , and plottings of the monkes and jesuites of germany , as may appeare by his writing to joachim , marquesse of brandenburgh , elector of the roman empire , interest principum germaniae , &c. it stands the princes of germany in hand to looke well what new sect of professors the bishop of rome doth send into their dominions and territories , and well to consider what will be the issue and end of their proceedings . and a little before , hee speakes that these were at first onely busied in building , and making their nests and holes : and lest that great sorcerer should bewray himselfe before he was well placed , and setled ; he , and his followers writ nor printed any thing ; or if they did , they set it forth with so many generall ambiguities & doubts , that it was very hard to say what was peculiar to this sect alone ; but now they have disclosed themselves fully . so this chemnitius having proved himselfe an undaunted soldier of jesus christ , departed this life at brunople , in the yeere of christ , 1586. and in the 64. of his age , not without the great griefe of that city . i have heere set downe his workes . 1. of the originall of the iesuites , and by what policy that sect came first up . 2. the chiefe heads of their divinity set forth by themselves at collen , 1560. with kemnitius his addition of annotations on the same . 3. an explication of the doctrine of the two natures in christ. 4. the grounds of the true doctrine of the substantiall presence , exhibition , and taking of the body and blood of christ in the lords supper . 5. a forme , or index ; or rather an enchyridion of the chiefe points of heavenly doctrine by questions and answers declared out of the word of god. 6. of originall sinne against the manichees . 7. a sermon of baptisme . 8. a tryall of the decrees of the councell of trident , explicating the chiefe places of christian doctrine in 4. parts . and so hee having fought the lords battailes couragiously , layd downe himselfe quietly , expecting a ioyfull resurrection . aretivs benedictvs though this famous and strong city of berne may bee iustly commended for many worthy actions of peace and warre , yet neither of those makes it so renowned as piety , and love shewed , and afforded to the professors of it : for this is the basis , and sure ground-worke of all policies , and state-affaires , which will soone fall , if not maintained by this supportment . it so fell out , that in the yeere of jesus christs incarnation , 1528. there was a great disputation at berne , performed by many grave divines , approved for learning , and truely orthodoxe , about some cōtroversies in religion ; by which meanes those of berne were greatly enlightned in the points of religion and the word of god 〈◊〉 preached not onely in 〈◊〉 city , but in the 〈◊〉 countries . amongst other divines 〈◊〉 note , this aretius was not 〈◊〉 least ; who was publicke professor of divinity in that city : hee is famous for his endowments of meekenesse , piety , learning , labour , and especially for his dextrous method in reading , and preaching , so that hee did truely divide the word . divers other theologues tooke their method from him , and would not make tryall in licke of their owne parts , before they had heard his publicke exercises . hee was so famous for his writings , that his labours in divinity brought no small gaine to the printers . one of his bookes was printed in the space of three yeeres , twelve times , called his examen theologicum , which doth shew not onely the profit of it , but also the excellency ; being a worke fit for all who int●nd the study of divinity . when this aretius had continued his labours in the schooles and pulpits of berne for many yeeres , with singular approbation and profit , he left this city , and was enrolled a citizen of heaven , not without the griefe of his auditors , nor without a sufficient testimony of his paines and travailes , as may witnesse these workes of his now extant in print , and here registred . 1. a forme for students . 2. two tables of the hebrew grammar . 3. his tryall for divines . 4. the history of valentine the gentile , beheaded at berne , with an orthodoxe defence of the article of faith , concerning the trinity , against his blasphemies . 5. a censure of the propositions of the catabaptists of poland , denying that baptisme succeeded circumcision . 6. two treatises , one of the reading , the other of the interpreting the sacred scriptures . 7. his common places , containing all the heads of divinity explaind . 8. eight lectures on the lords supper . 9. commentaries on the foure evangelists . 10. upon the acts of the apostles . 11. an introduction to the reading of st. pauls canonicall epistles . 12. commentaries on all saint pauls epistles . 13. commentaries on the apocalyps . 14. some physicall workes of compositions , and their degrees . henricvs bvllingervs . about the same time that zurich lamented the death of zuinglius , god brought this bullinger into place : hee was a switzer of the county of bremogarts . there is also a towne called by this name , seated two great miles from lucerne , and hath beene in former ages , one of the cities tyed to the roman empire , which appeares ( as simler testifies ) by the large priviledges which it hath ; bullinger was borne hee●e , who being a youth , was excellently well qualified in the liberall arts , and taught them with profit and commendation to divers others ; but he leaving the schooles , entred into the church , ●nd exercised his gifts in ●is owne countrey . but zuingliu● being dead , hee was sent for to tigurine , where he preached the space of so many yeeres as zuingliu● was borne , except onely one . these churches flourished in his time , and were happy by his iudicious government ; many famous doctors were not ash●med to follow his method in his lectures , sermons , writings , commentaries , controversies ; he was beloved of his adversaries for the moderating of his spirit at all times . hee laboured chiefly to procure the churches quiet , and for this purpose was very able in the ecclesiasticall histories , and ancient 〈◊〉 , w●ose steps he approved , and imitated . this famous bullinger , when he had faithfully , painefully , and dextrously ma●aged the affaires of the church of zurich the space of 44. yeeres , and instructed them in all manner of learning , having made himselfe also renowned in the churches abroad , departed hence , giving his soule to his creator . hee dyed in zurich , having exercis'd his gifts 50. yeeres , and being aged 71. in the yeere of grace , 1575. september 17. ●nd lyes ingrav'd by peter martyr , as one expresses it ●n an epitaph . — . — — quiescit contiguus petri martyris exuvijs . his workes are contained in 8. tomes , which doe sufficiently commend their author : they are heere digested orderly . tome 1. 1. a catechisme for the tigurine schoole-masters . 2. an epitome of christian religion in 10. books , to william landgrave of hessen . 3. decads of sermons upon the chiefe heads of christian religio● in three tomes . tome 2. 1. confession and exposition of the orthodoxe faith. 2. declaration proving the protestant church to be neither hereticall , nor schismaticall . 3. comp●ndium of the popish , and protestants tenents . 4. the old faith and religion . 5. instruction to those that shall be examined by the inquisitors . 6. a treatise of gods eternall covenant . 7. an assertion of the two nain christ. 8. five excellent bookes of vigilius , martyr , and bishop of trent , five hundred yeeres since written against eutiches , with bullingers notes . 9. institution of christian matrimony . 10. institutions for sicke men . 11. declarations of gods great benefits to the switzers , and exhortations to repen●ance . tome 3. 1. a treatise of the sabbath , and christian feasts , 24. sermons . 2. two sermons , of the office of magistrates , and of an oath . 3. three homilies of repentance . 4. sixe sermons of conversion to god , out of act. 8. 5. daniels prophecy explained , with the excellency of gods word . 6. of the office propheticall , and how to be performed . 7. exhortation to ministers , to leave controversies and contentions . 8. of the originall of mahometanisme . 9. of the persecutions of the church . tome 4. 1. a preface to the latine bible , printed at zurich 1544. 2. sixty six homilies on daniel . 3. epitome of the times , from the creation , to the destruction of hierusalem . tome 5. 1. one hundred and ninety homilies on esay . 2. one hundred sixty sermons on ieremy . 3. a briefe exposition on ieremies lamentation . tome 6. 1. twelve bookes , commentaries on st. mathew . 2. sixe bookes on st. marke , on st. luke , 9. on st. iohn 10. on the acts of the apostles . 3. a series of times , and actions of the apostles . tome 7. 1. fourteene commentaries on the epistles of st. paul. 2. seven more commentaries on the same . 3. sermons on the apocalyps , translated out of latine into dutch , french , english , polish . tome 8. 1. a demonstration of christian perfection to henry 2. king of france . 2. of the authority of the scripture , certainty , absolute perfection , stability , and of the institution of bishops , and their function , with some others . thus this glorious ornament of the church having finish'd his course , and kept the faith , after long travell and labour in gods vineyard , was layd downe to rest . rodolphvs gvalt●ervs uertue and learning are attained unto by diligence , as appeares in this man : he was richly adorned with abilities in all sciences , especially latine , and greeke ; he was a very exquisite orator , and a dainty poet : so being furnished with these endowments , hee entred into the study of divinity . he was holy in life , and grave in his carriage , and singular for his learning ; hee was pastor of the church of zurich above 40. yeeres , which hee supplyed faithfully , and with good successe , not onely to the benefit of the tigurines , but also to many strangers who came to heare him . so it doth appeare , that he desired to doe good to the church of god by his homilies , which hee set forth upon all the prophets , apostles , evangelists , whose labours serve students to this day as a library ; printed by froschover with great paines and diligence . well , when this gualter had raised up the the cause of christ , and oppos'd that see of rome , having painefully discharged his office in the church of the tigurines a longtime , he gave up his spirit to god , and lyes buried in this city , having lived 74. yeeres , and in the yeere of christ , 1586. his workes are many , and those profitable to be read : a catalogue of them i here present to your view . 1. the combate of david and goliah , set forth allegorically in heroicke verses . 2. epiceds of marg. blaurer , upon peter martyr , bullinger , parkhurst , bishop of norwich , symler , gualter . 3. arguments of all the chapters in the old and new testament in verse elegiack . 4. a collation of the new testament to the greeke copy . 5. an apology to the catholick church for zuinglius . 6. orthodox confession of faith by the ministers of the church of zurich . 7. a sacred comedy of nabal . 8. of the offices of ministers . 9. of the antiquity of schooles , with the praise of their founders . 10. five homilies of the last times , and of antichrist . 11. homilies on st. iohns epistles , upon zacharies song , of the nativity of christ : of the slavery of sinne , and freedome of the faithfull . 12. of the originall , dignity , and authority of the holy scriptures : of christs comming , and of our preparation : upon the 113. psalme . 13. three homilies upon the ascension of christ , and sending the holy ghost . 14. the christians looking-glasse . two homilies . 15. homilies upon the twelve 〈◊〉 prophets . 16. homilies upon st. math. marke , luke , iohn , acts , rom. corinth . galath . 17. nineteene homilies on ●entations . 18. tenne homilies of the bread of life . 19. three hundred and twenty homilies on esay . 20. translation of the five bookes of moses . 21. twenty foure bookes of zuinglius , translated out of dutch into latine . 22. the psalter into dutch. 23. ten sermons of theodoret of divine providence . 24. upon ciceroes workes de lege agraria . in verrem . 25. of the quantity of syllables and verses . 26. an elegy on the studies of the german nobility . 27. many sorts of verses ancient and learned , to iohn frisius a tigurine . and so having spent his spirits to the good of the church , and terror of his adversaries , and to the sweete content and comfort of his owne soule , hee had his desire fulfill'd , which was , to be dissolv'd , and to bee with his saviour ; free from further troubles and miseries , which this life was full of . theodorvs beza . behold the grave countenance of this man , who seemes to bee alive , though dead : this beza is famous through all the christian world , borne of noble parents , who did enlarge christs kingdome wonderfully by his vertue , piety , writings , and holy labours ; he was excellent in learning in his youth , especially for latine , and greeke ; as also for the politiques , as appeares by those famous monuments set forth by him . his tutor which hee had first , was at aurelium , then at zurich , who was called melior volmarus , a german by nation , a godly man , well learned , and excellent for the greeke tongue ; to whom in the yeere of our redemption , 1560. beza dedicated the confession of his faith , a● unto a parent , or patrone ; with which also he expressed the whole course of his former life . at twenty yeeres of age he was licenciate in the civill law ; he had two vncles , one of them was a senator , or alderman as it were of paris ; the other was abbat of frigimontan ; both these did mainely desire to have this beza , nay , this abbat so greatly loved him , that he had design'd him next successor in that abbey , which was worth five thousand french crownes yeerely : howsoever , he had two benefices , of which hee had no skill to governe ; so that hee had full friends , monies , and ease ; and being enticed with the fulnesse and splendor of these , he did suspect that sathan had layd snares for him : therefore being mindfull of holinesse , and thinking of his good tutor , and the change of his life , he fell into a sicknesse , which was the cause of his spirituall health and welfare ( as hee would say . ) so recovering his health , he forsooke all , and came to geneva , as to the safest haven for his goods , in the yeere , 1548. hence within a while , hee went to lausanna , a towne of the lords of berne , where he was called to be publicke professor of the greeke tongue : but after 10. yeeres he returned to geneva againe , dedicating himselfe wholly to the study of divinity , and under-went the charge of a shepheard of soules faithfully and labouriously , to the great pro●it of the church of christ : but the piece that made him most eminent in the church , was his translation of the new testament with annotations . hee lived to 83. yeeres ; he was reported by clemens puteanus a iesuite , to be dead , and dyed a romish professor ▪ which accusation and lye was most excellently well answered by beza himselfe ; in which answer this is one clause , vos autem , &c. but you in this one thing , when you report me to be dead , and that i renounced the faith and truth , doe manifestly shew , that your father is the devill , vvho is the father of lyes : and thou puteanus , especially doest shew thy selfe one of those that come from that pit , apoc. 19. so having laboured much in the cause of gods church , he gave his soule to his creator in peace . his workes are here registred . 1. poems printed by h. stephan . 2. psalmes printed with buchanans . 3. schoole-notes on the greeke alphabet , and of the dutch pronunciation of the greeke . 4. abrahams sacrifice , a tragedy . in theology . 1. new translation of the new testament , with annotations . 2. confession of christian faith , with comparing it with the popish heresies . 3. another short confession . 4. of the punishing hereticks by the civill magistrates , against martin bellius . 5. the summe of christianity . 6. the doctrine of the sacrament . 7. a plaine treatise of the lords supper against westphalus . 8. his cyclops against heshusius . 9. the defence of the church of geneva , against his calumnies . 10. an answer to sebastian castalio , concerning predestination . 11. an answer in defence of his translation against sebastian castalio . 12. an answer against the renewers of nestorius , and eutiches sect , of omnipresence of the flesh of christ. 13. of the hypostaticall union of the two natures in christ , against iacob andrees . 14. of the unity of the divine essence against arrians . 15. theses of the trinity of persons , and unity of essence . 16. a little booke of christian questions and answers . 17. of the sacramentall coniunction of the body and blood of christ , with the sacred symboles against illiricus . 18. an apology for the calvinian and bezan doctrine of ●e lords supper . 19. an answer to the reprohes of francis baldwin . 20. against selneuer . 21. a treatise of poligamy , ●nd divorce . 22. theologicall epistles . 23. calvins life . 24. dialogues of athanasius , ●f the trinity : of anastasius and cyrill , of the explication of faith : of basil against eunomius . foure bookes in latine , set forth both in greeke and latine , with feobadius against arrians 25. psalmes of david , and five bookes of the other prophets with latine paraphrases . 26. french psalmes to sing i● metre . 27. upon st. pauls epistles to the rom. galath . philip. colos. with olevianus notes . 28. icones , or pictures of many learned men , especially protestants . 29. pictures , or emblemes . 30. morall , ceremoniall , judiciall law of moses . 31. of the hypostaticall union of both natures in christ. a dispute with doctor iohn pappius . 32. a preface to hesiander , of the omnipresence of christ. 33. a translation of theodores greeke booke against hereticks , denying the hypostaticall union , into latine . 34. questions and answers of the sacrament . 35. an answer to iodic harch , of the lords supper . 36. of the ▪ pestilence , 2. questions : one of the con●agion of it , two of flying in that time . 37. salomons song in latine verse . 38. of the pronunciation of the french tongue . 39. homilies on christs resurrection . tertullian is expected to be set forth . franciscvs ivnivs . though france hath abounded with many professors of the gospell , and those rare schollers : yet there are very few that have out-stript this worthy juni● . hee was of the city of biturigum , one who was well descended ; famous for verue , holinesse of life , and learning : hee had through the whole course of his life severall crosses , as exercises of his vertues , in which hee admired the singular providence of god , and his speciall mercies for his deliverances . he was borne in the yeere of jesus , 1545. at thirteene yeeres old , he studied the civill law , ●n which hee spent 2. yeeres : in which time , in his owne countrey , in the vniversity of biturigum , those famous and religious men of that profession , francis duaren , hugh donellus , antony contius , and lewes russard did interpret the civill law unto him : when as the variety of severall ▪ sciences invited this junius to the study of them , hee determined with himselfe to set upon , and to follow that which was the most excellent . in the yeere of our lord , therefore , 1562. hee came to geneva , where when hee had exercised himselfe in the sacred letters , and tongue , he was esteemed very able to take the ministry upon him : those then of antwerp being destitute of a minister for the french congregation , junius at the perswasion of crispine , and the necessity of the church so requiring , came to antwerpe 1565. in which city there were many spirituall merchants , that sought after those celestiall treasures : but with what hazard and danger he exercised his ministry heere , and in other townes of the low countries , it is to be easily seene in the histories of those times . he preach'd a sermon at brussels , where the sermon ended , they went into consultation , how to stop and pull downe the spanish too too bloody inquisition , whereat junius held his peace ; these things were first determined in the house of the earles of colenburgh : whereupon the house , two yeeres after was layd levell with the ground , not without fearefull cursings and execrations . that bloody duke of alva then swaying in those parts with his spanish tyranny , for all these tempests , junius did great good in his preaching , and was well approved of many of the lords , who liked not the spanish servitude . this junius taught long in the palatinate under fredericke cassimeire , called pius ; and his nephew fredericke 4. both in church , and schooles . that translation of the whole old testament often printed , and now used , got him a great name . he had great knowledge in the scriptures , and in tongues , philosophy , and history , as appeares in his notes upon bellarmine , of the translating of the roman empire . he taught , and writ in the vniversity of leyden for ten yeeres , and upwards . his workes are many , and are here registred . 1. a speech in french to the spanish king for defence of the low countries . 2. an answer to sandwich his brethren in england , of images . 3. the translation of the old testament , with immanuel tremelius , out of hebrew . 4. acts of the apostles , and epistles to the corinthians out of arabicke . 5. confession of faith of frederick count palatine 3. 6. apocrypha translated with notes . 7. iohannes tilly of kings , and of the kings of france , translated into latine . 8. a speech of the hebrew tongue . 9. an hebrew grammar . 10. ecclefiasticus latine , and french. 11. a looking-glasse of tremelius against genebrard . 12. twelve orations for the reading of the old testament . 13. an oration of vrsinus life . 14. upon gregory 13. his cursings against gebbard , bishop of colen . 15. upon st. iudes epistle . 16. foure speeches for reading the old testament . 17. upon the 4 first psalmes . 18. a catholicke apology in latine . 19. an hebrew lexicon . 20. his table of purgatory . 21. a christian admonition against iohn haren in french. 22. a book called the academy . 23. his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , greeke and latine . 24. translation of 2. epistles of the kings , and one of plessis in latine . 25. his sacred paralels . 26. upon the prince of anhalt his death . 27. notes upon the three first chapters of genesis . 28. a confutation of some arguments of the creation . 29. notes upon the apocalyps . 30. second edition of his lible . 31. manilius with corrections and notes . 32. his first defence of the catholicke doctrine of the trinity . 33. a commentary on daniel . 34. the king of france his confession in french. 35. upon the death of iohn cassimeire , count palatine . 36. commentary on psal. 101. 37. exposition upon the apocalyps in french. 38. commentary on ionah the prophet . 39. an analysis upon genesis . 40. ciceroes epistles to atticus , and q. his brother , with corrections and notes . 41. a defence of the catholick doctrine of nature and grace . 42. a praise of peace . 43. the peaceable christian in french. 44. of the observation of moses policy . 45. of divinity . 46. an oration against the iesuites in latine . 47. notes upon tertullian . 48. notes and animadversions upon bellarmine , of the translation of the roman empire . these be this painefull labourers fruits : more he writ , which are not come forth , and some things by the iniury of times , are lost ; these be sufficient to shew his paines and labour , and will for ever eternize his name . these are the names and lives of the forreigne divines , those that follow , are of our owne nation . 〈◊〉 wicklifee . amongst many famous writers of this nation , as beda , alckvine , john carnotensis , girald , nigellus , neckam , sevall , bacanthorpe , ockam , hampoole of armach , this wickliffe is not the least of worth , hee was famous both for lifes , and learning ; he was brought up in the famous vniversity of oxford , in merton colledge ; he gave himselfe , after hee was maister of arts , to the study of schoole divinity , wherein having an excellent acute wit , he became excellently well qualified , and was admired of all for his singular learning , and sweetnesse of behaviour : he preached the gospell under that famous king edward the third , who alwayes favoured and protected him from his raging adversaries . the bishop of rome lost by his doctrine the power of making and ordayning bishops in england , and the tenths of spirituall promotions , and also the gaines of his peter-pence . the popes ever since pretending to bee imitators of st. peter , have still desired to fish in this iland , knowing how profitable this kingdome hath beene to that see of rome . in the time of king richard the second , this wickliffe was banished , in which misery and affliction , hee shewed a singular spirit of courage and constancy , wheresoever hee ●vent , or whatsoever he suffered . at last returning from exile , he died in the yeare of our saviour iesus , whom he had preached , 1398. and was buried the last day of december in his parish church of lutterworth in leicester-shire . but in the yeere 1428. which was 41. yeeres from the time of his death , his dead body was by the decree of pope martin the fifth , and the councell of sene , dig'd up , and burned with the execrations of that fiery pope ; thus he found the cruelty of them being dead , whom he had being living , taught to be so he writ ( as pius aenaeas testi ▪ fies ) more than two hundred faire volumes , most of which were burned by subinck archbishop of prague in bohemia ▪ the catalogue of his works you may reade in the centuries of john bale , some of them , i have here set downe . 1. of christ and antichrist . 2. of antichrist and his members . 3. of the truth of the scriptures . 4. of the fountaine of errors . 5. a booke of conclusions . 6. 7. of ecclesiasticall and civill government . 8. of the impostures of hypocrites . 9. of blasphemy . 10. lectures on daniel . 11. on the apocalyps . 12. of the marriage of priests . 13. the divels craft against religion . 14. his policy to overthrow faith . 15. of apostacy . 16. two bookes of metaphy ▪ sickes , one containing 12. bookes . 17. glosses upon the scripture . 18. of falling away from christ. 19. of truth and lying . besides these , he writ many of philosophy , and tra●slated the bible into the english tongue , making prefaces and arguments to euery booke : he also tra●slated the twelve bookes of clement , the parson of lan●hon , containing the harmony of the evangelists : and thus went out this lampe of england : of whom one thus hath said . mortuus est , p●sthàc ●ssa cremata sua . iohn bale hee was an englishman , borne in suffolke , fitted and furnished with all maner of learning at cambridge . his parents had many children , and were papists . this bale being a boy , was shut up 12. yeares in a cloyster of friars , carmalites ; hee was first brought from that darknes to light , by the right honourable , the lord wentworth , but he was troubled first under the government of leo at yorke , and afterwards under stokesley at london , being arch-bishops . but bale got his freedome by the meanes of cromwell , who was privy councellor to king henry the eighth , for some dain●y and elegan● comedies , which he compos'd ; yet he was forced to flye , and remained in lower germany eight yeares , in which hee writ many workes . he was called home by king edward the sixth , and was made bishop of ossar in ireland ; where he preached : but in queene maries dayes ireland was too hot for him , and so left it , but after many dangers , he was taken by pirats , stript , mocked , and vncivilly handled , at last was sold , but his ransome being paid , he returned into germany , which was at that time the safest receptacle for distressed christians ; living at ba●ile he compiled that work of his 13 cen●uries of all the famous writers of great britains , in all ages , to the yeare , of christ 1557. hee was much helped by leland , living in germany , his special friends were alexander alerius , a scotish man , where hee writ the like catalogue of the famous men of that nation , likewise gesner , simler , and lycosthenes loved him dearely : he was a powerfull engine against the roman church , as appeares by that distiche of lawrence hum●hred . 〈◊〉 lutherus patefecit , platina multa . quadam vergerius , cuncta balaeus habet . englished thus . full much did luther , platin● did well , so did vergerius , bale doth all excell . this worthy scholler dyed in ireland in the yeare of our redemption 1558. and of his troublesome life 67. his workes are these that follow . 1. his heliads of english. 2. his british writers . 3. 3 tomes upon walden . 4. vpon the invention of things by polydore . 5. vpon capgraves catalogue . 6. vpon the lives of bishops . 7. an epitome of leland . 8. the acts of the rom. bishops . two comedies in severall sorts of verse● . 1. the life of st. iohn baptist. 2. of christ. 3. of his baptisme a●d tentation . 4. of lazarus rais'd . 5. of the high priests councell . 6. of symon the leper . 7. of the lords supper , and washing his disciples feete . 8. of the passion of christ. 9. of his buriall and resurrection . 10. vpon the marriage of kings ▪ 11. of the popish sects . 12. against detractors . 13. papists treacheries . 14. against ad●lterating gods word . 15. of ioh. king of england . 16. of the impostures of thom. becket . 17. of the promises of god. 18. of the preaching of st. iohn . 19. corruptions of divine lawes . 20. pammachius translated . bookes in prose in english. 1. vpon the apocalyps . 2. against standish . 3. against the custome of swearing . 4. mystery of iniquity . 5. against antichrist . 6. the triall of sir iohn old-castle . 7. some dialogues . 8. against baals priests . 9. apology for barnes and gray against smith . 10. against perswasion to popery . 11. vpon anne askew . 12. to elizabeth , after queen . 13. vpon the single life of clergie men . 14. lelands journall . 15. of true heretiques . 16. expostulations of popery . 17. vpon mantuan of death . 18. against the popish masse . 19. of the calling to a bishopricke . 20. against bonners articles . 21. vpon luthers death . 22. iohn lambards confession . 23. a weekes worke to god. 24. thorpes examination ●ranslated into latine . 25. iohn pomers epistle to ●he english men . 26. of the writers of england , and scotland , enriched with 500 authors . 26. abreviations of leland . while hee lived among the papists , he collected these and writ them . 1. a bundle of all writers . 2. writers f●om helia . 3. writers from bertholde . 4. additions to trytemiu● germane collections , fren● collections , and english. 5. the spirituall warre . 6. the castle of peace . 7. to the synod of hull . 8. the history of st. br● chard . of symon , an english man. 9. prefaces upon mantua● it doth by all these appear● what an industruous labourer bale was in his time ▪ whose memory is yet fres● amongst us . iohn collet this collet was sonne to henry collet knight , and twice lord maior of london , he was doctor of divinity in the vniversity of oxford , and deane of st. pauls in london , hee was a great scholler , living in the darke time of popery : he embraced true religion in the reignes of henry the 7. and 8. kings of england : his sincerity was seene in his extraordinary and laborious sermons , but specially in that which hee preacht to henry the eighth , at his siege of tournay : his argument was stiled christianus miles , or the christian soldier : whereupon , hee being called to tryall by the kings councellors : the issue proved happy , for he gave great content to the king , insomuch , that the king taking a cup of wine , said , deane . i drinke to you , let every man take whom he will for his confessor , you onely shall be my doctor . and truely , this great deane of st. pauls , taught and lived like st. paul : hee was expert in st. pauls epistles , and illustrated them with his commentaries : he preacht against the worshiping of images , concerning iustification by the merits of christ freely ; against idle priests : against those that were marryed , and yet lived inordinately : his nature was against those which persecuted the professors of truth : hee derided one that thought st. paul meant by those words an heretique after the first and second admonition devita , that he should be cut off , taking the verbe to be a substantive , de vita , ac si de vit â tollendu● : he founded and built that famous grammar schoole ; called pauls schoole , where an hundred fifty and three poore mens sonnes should be taught freely , and a fine house of dwelling for the schoolemaster , which schoole beares this inscription in latin , schola catechisationis puerorum 〈◊〉 christi opt. max. side & bon●●tteris , anno christi m. d. x. ●hich doth evidently prove , ●at hee was a true religious ●an : hee assigned a large ●nnuall stipend to the head ●choole-master and vsher , he ●ft rents and houses , which ●e committed to the care of ●e worshipfull company of ●ercers in london : that lear●ed william lylly , the author ●f the latine grammar , was ●e first schoole-master of ●is place . doctor collet lies ●mously buried in the ca●drall church of st. paule , ●pon whose tombe , lyly hath engraven latine verses , and this motto . disce muri mundo — — vivere disce deo. his writings were these . 1. of the institution of youth . 2. of manners , lib. 1. 3. foureteene bookes upon st. paul. 4. one booke on the proverbs . 5. one booke of st. matthew . 6. one booke of the feare of christ. 7. one booke of the twelve articles of faith. 8. vpon the lords prayer . 9. ordnary sermons . 10. extraordinary sermons upon speciall occasions . 11. of the sayings of christ. 12. disputation : against erasmus roterdamus . 13. one sermon to the clergy in english. william tindall this famous scholl● was borne in the co●fines or borders of wales , 〈◊〉 had his youth trained 〈◊〉 in oxford , in magdalen colledge in the liberall sciences , where hee attained to great skill in the tongues , when he had gathered great knowledge of gods will , as it was revealed in his word : he dedicated his first fruits of learning to the colledge , and then entred into holy orders . in that darke time of popery having embraced the truth , he also instructed his wife , and div●rs others in the knowledge of it : furthermore , hee turn'd many famous bookes and writings into english , and namely , erasmus , his enchyridion of a christian souldier . but his name being growne somewhat famous , he was vext by his adversarie ▪ the adherent● of the bishop of rome , and whereas he studied the quiet of his owne conscience , h● left this land , and went into germany , and had great conference with martin luther , and iohn frith in saxony ; by whose helpe hee set upon the translation of the scriptures into english tongue , for the go●d and prosit of the rude and ignorant people , and having translated the new testament , and the pentateuch , or five bookes of moses , & caus'd them faithfully to bee imprinted at hamburg , with learned prefaces to each of them , and sent them into england : he writ many other famous pieces in english , and when hee had staid a good while in germany , he came downe to antwerp in brabant , where hee did much good by instructing the merchants , and enduing them with the knowledge of the truth ; but hee had not travelled long , before his adversaries had laid him out for the fire ; therefore , being by letters and messengers sent out of england taken , he was led as a prisoner to filford castle in in flanders , where for the testimony of iesus christ , and for the profession of the gospell , hee suffered constantly , a cruell martyrdome , being burnd to ashes : his last words hee spake , were these , open oh lord the kings eyes of england : hee was through the whole course of his life unblameable . master foxe in his history of martyres saies , hee might be called englands apostle , the workes which he writ , besides the translation of the scriptures , are these that follow . 1. a christians obedience . 2. the unrighteous mammon . 3. the practice ●f the papists . 4. commentaries on the seventh chapter of st. matthew . 5. a discourse of the last will and testament of tracij . 6. an answer to sir thomas mores dialogues . 7. the doctrine of the lords supper against more . 8. of the sacrament of the altar . 9. of the sacramentall signes . 10. a foote path leading to the scriptures . 11. two letters to iohn frith . all these are extant together , with the workes of two martyrs , barnes and frith , in english , in folio , and thus after much labour and persecution , this worthy member of christ , yeelded to the flames , expecting a ioyf●ll resurrection . iohn bradeford this scholler was not inferiour in parts , either of doing or suffering to others , he was borne in the county of lancaster : in that famous marte town of manchester : he was by his parents brought up from his cradle to learning , and he was singular for docility and diligence , so that he profited admirably , in his studies and exercises which hee undertooke , then hee was sent to cambridge , and was admitted into queenes colledge , where hee tooke all degrees , so that hee was made master of the same colledge , which hee governed with great dexterity and sincerity . afterwards in the reigne of king edward the ●xth , he was appoynted di●inity lecturer in the cathe●rall church of st. paul in london , which taske he performed not without admirable demonstration of la●our and learning . but in the time of queene mary , the state of religion altering , and the protestant professors being hated , this famous bradford among the rest , for the love of jesus and his gospell , which hee had faithfully preached , was consumed in the fiery flames of persecution , and so was crowned with that glorious name of martyre . this he suffered the first of july 1555 , in that noted plac● called west smithfield , londo● the last words that hee wa● heard to utter , were , o● england repent , hee left behind him his famous disputation● which hee had with the papists , which are extant at large in foxes history of martyrs . he had a famous epitaph written of him : his workes which hee writ in english are these . 1. two sermons , the first of repentance , the second of the lords supper . 2. some letters to his fellow martyrs . 3. an answere to ones letter , desiring to know whether one might goe to masse , or not ? 4. the danger ensuing the hearing of masse . 5. his examination before the officers . 6. godly meditations made in prison , cald his short prayers . 7. truths complaint . 8. melancthon translated , of prayers . hvgh latymer this worthy divine was borne in leicester shire , brought up to learning from a youth , afterwards hee was ●laced in cambridge , where ●e tooke ( not without de●ert ) the eminent title of doctor of divinity : his as●ect did promise much sin●erity and ingenuity , and hee was of candid manners , and ●f courieous and meeke car●iage : for his singular lear●ing , he was by king edward●he ●he sixth , made bishop of worcester , where , while hee ●ate in that see , all good men ●erceived his singular care & dexterity , in managing that weighty function : he was alwaies ready and forward to propagate the truth . but he also in the time of queene maries reigne , was both d● prived of his bishoprick , an● ministeriall function , an● being cast into prison , w● condemned to the fire : h● was much like that old an● cient father of the primitive time , st. polycarpus : 〈◊〉 either you looke upon th● forme of his martyrdome ▪ or weigh well the saying 〈◊〉 them both at the time 〈◊〉 their sufferings . that old polycarpus being fourescore and above , a little before his death , uttered that sweete● saying of st. james , fideli● est deus , qui non sinit nos tentari● supra quod possumus , that is , god is faithfull , who will not suffer us to bee tempted above our strength : and a little after he said , pater celestis suscipe spiritum meum , which is , oh heavenly father receive my spirit . in like manner , this father latimer , for so he was cal'd , was a constant and stout martyr of jesus christ , and was burnd at oxford , the sixeteenth day of october , in the yeare of grace , 1555. hee left his sermons behind him , wherein we may reade his sincerity and piety , many of them were preached before king edward the sixth , and the illustrious lady katharine dutches of suffolke , and a● now to bee had in any one● hands almost , having been● so many times imprinted ▪ with the publicke approbation of all learned and iudicious divines , and to the comfort of all well dispose● christians , who may gathe● great profit out of them : hi● life actions , and sufferings , are at large to be read , in master foxes history . nicolas ridly learning did not onely adorne this worthy divine , but also parentage , being well descended , hee was borne in the bishopri● of durham : in his youth he was endued with many singular vertues , and his parents spared no cost to have him well and christian-like educated : well , knowing the power of good education to helpe much , hee was sent to cambridge , to study where hee tooke degree of batchelor of divinity , and presently he was made master of pembrook hall : but his parts and gifts were so eminent ( as appeared by his wife and religious deportment in that preferment ) that , that religious and pious king edward the sixth took notice of him , and being ful●y certified of his integrity of life , and excellent schol●ership , made him bishop of rochester , nor did his hand stay , untill he had cald him ●rom that see , to the bishoppricke of london , where hee shewed the parts of a true bishop and shepheard of soules by his painfull watching , prayings , preachings . but these halcyon dayes of the churches peace , lasted not long , but king edward paying natures debt , and queene mary comming to the crowne of england , this worthy pr●late sate not long quiet , for religion being altered , and the bishop of romes authority comming in again , he was remov'd and cast both from his ecclesiasticall dignity , and wholly from the ministery , and was condemned to be burnd as an heretique . this english father might fitly be compared to that old father of the church , st. ignatius , not onely for his famous writing upon the lords supper , but also for his suffering so constantly and zealously in the cause of christ. wel , this man was a choice flower of christ his church , and therefore is not unworthily stiled a martyr , for in the same day , and same houre , was he , with father hugh ▪ latimer burnd to ashes in the vniversity of oxford , over against baliol colledge : his last words in the flames that he was heard to utter were these , into thy hands o lord doe i commend my spirit : his works , besides that treatise of the lords supper , are extant in english , which follow . 1. a conference with father latimer . 2. a right forme of celebrating the lords supper . 3. a friendly farewell to his loving friends and favourers , being in prison at oxford . 4. with a mournfull lamentation of the deplored estate of the church of england being falne to popery . his writings could not be many , because his time was but short , and he imployed it most in preaching . thomas cranmer this reverend and grave arch-bishop was borne in the county of notingham , sprung from an ancient and worthy family . he was brought up to study in the vniversity of cambridge in jesus colledge , in which he made a wonderfull progresse in learning , and prov'd in a short time an excellent and usefull member in the church , for his rare endowments , he was by that potent prince henry the eight , king of england , made arch-bishop of canterbury , after the death of his predecessor warran , in the yeare 1532. all the time of king henry his reigne , he shaved his beard , but that king dying , hee let it grow greatly , as you see him here lively presented : he was the first archbishop , except onely one , which was richard scroope , archbishop of yorke , that was adiudged to death in england by formall course of law. but this cranmer , was and underwent two yeares and an halfe imprisonment , with much sorrow , in darknesse , nastinesse , and want : certaine it is , that he was a man devoted wholly to religion and godlinesse , for he in the time of king edward procured many divines to repaire from forraine parts into this kingdome , and saw that they were supplyed with necessa ries , among whom was m● tine bucer , paulus fagius , io hannes lascus , and peter martin if he had not loved the go● spell of jesus , he would no● have so friendly relieved and cherished his followers . he needes no other commendations , than those which are given him by andreas osi●der , & peter martir , in k. he● the eighth his reigne . osi●der in his preface to his evangelicall harmony thus speaks of him , amote , &c. i love your grace , not onely for those endowments which are common to others , as greatnesse of birth , comlinesse of person , sweetnesse of carriage , charity to all , especially ●o students and professors of gods word : but much more for those abstrusiores ac plane ● leroicas animi tui virtutes , those are his very expressions in english , abstruse and plainely heroicall vertues of your minde , together , with your visedome , prudence , fortitude , temperance , justice , care for your countries good , loyalty to your soveraigne , contempt of worldly wealth , love of heavenly riches , love of the truth , gospell , and professors of it . this encomium is large and true , proceeding from the penne of such a divine : and peter marter gives him as much praise in his epistle to his booke of the eucharist . quem enim potuissem , &c. whom could i finde so true a bulwarke for the truth , and especially huius eucharistici sacramenti , for the sacrament of the eucharist , than your sacred selfe nay , he saith , q●is sanctior ? firmior ? doctior ? who so holy ? whose stedfast ? who so generally learned● it is your grace that are expert in all the writings of the fathers , councels , canons , popes decrees , controversies , of these ( saith he ) i am an eye witnesse , or else i should scarce have believed ●t : ye for all these parts , this famous father of the english church , was adiudged to the sire , and suffered it at oxford , 1556. the 21. of march , and of his age 72. in which weighty charge of governing the affaires of the church . he writ many things which are here to his eternall praise truely registred . 1. a catechisme of christian doctrine . 2. ordinations of churches reformed . 3. ofordaining priests . 4. of the eucharist with luther . 5. a defence of catholicke doctrine . 6. to the professors of the truth . 7. ecclesiasticall lawes , in edward the sixth his reigne . 8. against gardners sermon . 9. doctrine of the lords supper . 10. 12 bookes of common places , out of the doctors of the church . 11. christian homilies . 12. to richard smiths calumnies . 13. confutations of unwritta● truths . 14. of not marrying one● sister , two bookes . 15. against the popes primary , two bookes . 16. against popish purgatory , two bookes . 17. of iustification , two bookes . 18. epistles to learned men. out of prison hee writ these . 1. against the sacrifice of the masse . 2. against adoring the host. 3. to queene mary , with others . 4. emendations of the translation of the english bible , and added prefaces to it . edwin sandes archbi . this worthy doctor of the church of england , proceeded of a good house and family , and tooke his degree of doctor in the famous vniversity of cambridge , he was master of katharine hall ; and vice-chancellor of the said vniversity the same time . when iohn duke of northumberland passed by that way with his army , to oppose the proclaiming of mary queene of england , he caused this sands to preach for , and in defence of the lady jane grey , which was declar'd queene , which he performd , with that modesty , gravity , and wisedome , that hee satisfied northumberlands duke , and did not much incense the other party , for when there was a suddaine change of things , so that the next day the great duke and himselfe were both taken prisoners , this worthy sands at the intercession of many friends , was acquitted and fully set free , and so together , with his wife , went into germany , ( a good policy to shun a comming & threatning storme ) where he kept himselfe close during the reigne of queene mary ; but that queene dying , hee was cald home into england in queene elizabeths reigne , and was declared bishop of worcester , and was consecrated ●e one and twentieth of december in the yeare of our lord , 1559. hee did succeed that famous arch-bishop grindall in two places , to ●it , in the bishopricke of london , and the archbishopricke of yorke , the one in ●570 . and the other in sixe yeares after ; and when he had enioyed that spirituall promotion of arch-bishop 12. yeares , he departed this life the eighth of august , 1588. about the age of threescore , and lies buryed in the collegiate church of southwel●in ●in notingham shire , a man , of whom it is hard to be said , whether more famous for his singular vertues & learning , or for his noble parentage and of-spring which hee left behinde him : for he left many children , of which , three were knights , and excellently well qualified gentlemen , either for body or mind . but his sonne sir edwine sands prov'd the learneder , & more famous and deare to his countrey . there is a booke of famous sermons extant in print of this prelates , which is counted a worthy piece of work , & doth sufficiently declare his piety and schollership to succeding ages . alexander nowell this effigies speaks christian meekenesse and gravity , and he was , as this shewes him to be , borne he was in lancashire of an ancient family of the nowels . hee tooke the degree of doctor in divinity ; & in queen maries dayes , he ( as many other famous divines were forced to doe ) departed this land , to shunne the troubles of those times , and to secure their owne persons from their adversaries . hee was deane of the famous church of st. paul in london : hee was the first that returned from forreigne parts ; hee presently writ two bookes of true religion against the papists , and also of his first and last lent sermons . he was for thirty yeares together preacher to queene elizabeth of blessed memory : hee was likewise patron of middleton schoole . hee gave to brazen-nose colledge , in which hee studied from the thirteenth of his age , till twenty sixe , to thirteene students to bee maintained , two hundred pounds of english money , being at the same time principall of the same colledge . hee was the author of much good to pauls schoole : hee did propagate godlinesse by his frequent preachings , and catechismes : hee had the testimony for abilities and rare parts of both vniversities and of forreigne churches , and of those happy prince , king edward the sixth , and queene elizabeth , as also of their true hearted nobles . hee was a speciall maintainer of the poore , and more specially of learned schollers . hee was a comforter of the afflicted , both for their bodies and soules , and hee was an especiall reconciler of contentions and law suites , witnes for ever to his praise ; that agreement and unity , which hee alone procured betweene sir thomas gresham , and sir iohn ramsey , being falne out , and fully intending to prosecute their causes at law , but by this reverend divines perswasion , and meditation , were made friends , and so continued to their dying day . hee sate long the deane of st. pauls , and lived till he was ninety yeares old , and yet then had his perfect sight . hee dyed in the yeare of our lord , 1601. on the thirteenth of february , and lyes buryed in the famous cathedrall church of st. paul in london , with this epitaph upon his tombe . 〈◊〉 os ●vestigia evangeliza itium pacem . with some verses also annexed , this being the last of them . sic oritur , floret , demoriturque deo. his workes set forth , are as followe●h . 1. against thomas dorm●n , an english papist , in two bo●s in quarto english. 2. another booke against dorman and sanders of transubstantiation in quarto english . 3. his greater catechisme in latine , in quarto . 4. his lesser catechisme in latine , in oct● . 5. the same in latine , greeke , and hebrew . iohn ievell .. this famous instrument may truely answer to his name , for he● was a rich iewell both t● church , and common-wealth : he was borne in devonshire , and brought up to ripenesse in that flourishing vniversity of oxford , first in merton colledge , and afterwards in corpus christi colledge , where , with the approbation of all the learned hee tooke the degree of batchelor in divinity . in his time hee was a famous , and no lesse painefull preacher of the gospell of his saviour . in the reigne of queene mary , he fled into germany , to enioy the liberty of his conscience , and to avoide those snares th●t were laying for him , in which he had beene intrapped , had he stayed ; but the dayes of queene mary ending , and famous queene elizabeth comming to the crowne , this worthy scholler returned to england , and at his comming was ioyfully received of his mother , the university ; who bestowed upon him the famous title of doctor of divinity : and not long was it before that renowned queene elizabeth , for his singular learning , and knowledge in all the sciences and tongues , made him bishop of salisbury , which diocesse he governed with wonderfull care and vigilancy , not onely feeding the soules of his people , but also at all times distributing food to the bodies of the poore and distressed : and as he was admirable for his dextrous and pious government of the affaires of the church , so was he also renowned farre and wide for his learned works and writings , which foiled the adversaries , and quite stopt their mouths , and rest yet unanswered , which did mightily disparage their cause . hee writ both in latine , and english ; for hee was excellent in the knowledge of the tongues : but that piece which most wounded the roman cause , was his apology for the church of england , which worke is piously reserved , as a memoriall of him , in all our churches ; so that it may be sayd of him , hee is dayly read in our meetings , and whose fame is through all the churches . peter martyr for this his worke gave him great commendations in these words : apologia tua frater charissime , &c. your apology ( most deare brother ) hath not onely afforded me content and satisfaction in all respects , but it is approved of for a learned , eloquent worke , of bullinger , and his followers , also of gualter ; so that they cannot praise you enough ; neither doe they beleeve that any worke in this time hath beene set forth fuller of all manner of learning , and entire perfection : those be martyrs very expressions . this worthy and reverend juell of our english church , did as it were foretell in part his dissolution , as appeares by two letters sent by him to the reverend father in god , the lord bishop of norwich , which doctor lawrence humphred doth set forth . this worthy instrumēt yeelded to death at his palace in monktonfarley , the citizens of salisbury did greatly bewaile his death ; it was in the yeere of our lord , 1573 , and of his age the 50th , and lyes buryed in the cathedrall church of salisbury , in the middle of the quire , under a fair● marble-stone , with this inscription in latine , which i have englished , because it sets forth his praise . to john juell , an english man , in the county of devon. sprung of the ancient family of the juels of buden , of the university of oxford : ex●ed in queene maries dayes into germany , but ●n queene elizabeths reigne , was bishop of this diocesse , where he sate eleaven yeeres , and nine moneths , ruling faithfully , and with great integrity ; a man religious , learned , sharpe-witted , solid in judgement , endued with piety , and singular humanity : an expert divine , a jewell of jewels ; dyed at monktonfarley , buried at salisbury , being a cittizen o● heaven , laurence humphred hath consecrated this monument , in witnesse of his favour and love , in the yeere of salvation , 1573 , ix kalends octob. psalme 112. the righteous shall be had in everlasting remembrance . he also made a monument himselfe , which will last longer than that of marble , which are his workes that ●ollow . 1. a synopsis of that seditious bull of pius quintus , sent into england 1569. in english. 2. a short treatise of the scriptures . 3. a treatise of the sacraments . 4. a sermon preached in king edwards reigne , upon 1. pet. 4. 11. 5. sixe sermons before queene elizabeth at pauls crosse in english. 6. the apology of the church of england . 7. a volume against thomas harding , wherein 77 q● stions are discussed , and decid● by scriptures , councels , and a● cient fathers : translated into l● tine by william whittaker . 8. his reply against harding , turned out of english in to latine by tho. bradocke . john wolley , secretary to queene elizabeth , made some verses upon his death ; these are the two last of them , moribus , ingenio ●octrina , relligione , nulla ferent talē saecula longa virū ▪ for manners , wit , learning , religion , like him these times will yeeld us few , or none . mathew parker this countenance speaks gravity , and hee was no lesse than he appeares : he was borne in the city of norwich , furnished with learning in the vniversity of cambridge : hee was bibleclarke in corpus christi colledge , and after he was made fellow of the same colledge : but he was called from hence to be chaplaine to queene anne , wife to henry 8. king of england . he tooke degree of doctor in divinity , and first he was made deane of stoake ; and queene anne dying , the king made him one of his chaplaines ; and that king dying , he was reputed worthy to be chaplaine to king edward the sixth ; he obtayned no meane preferments and dignities under both kings , as the mastership of that colledge in which hee was bred : he was prebend of ely , and deane of lincolne ; all which promotions in king edwards dayes hee did quietly possesse , untill the second yeere of queene mary ; then he was , for marrying a wife , stript from all his preferments , and lived an obscure , and poore life . but that storme being over , and the archbishopricke of canterbury being voide by the death of cardinall poole , queene elizab. iudged none fitter for this eminent preferment for life and learning than this grave prelate , and so did bestow the archbishopricke upon him . he was installed the 17. of december , and sate primate and metropolitane of all england the space of 15. yeeres , in which space hee did many famous workes of charity : as first , he gave to the city of norwich , the place of his birth , a silver basen and eure double guilt , weighing an hundred and threescore and ten ounces , to this he gave 50. shillings yeerely , to be distributed to the poore of that city : hee tooke care also for sixe anniversary sermons , ●o be preached in five particular parish-churches in norfolke . hee built a faire grammar-schoole at rochdale in lancashire ; he gave to corpus christi , or bennet-colledge , of which he was head , thirty schollerships ; hee builded the inward library , and furnished it with many faire bookes printed , and manuscripts rare and scarce for worth and antiquity . moreover , he gave to the students of the same house , a piece of plate of 30. ●unces of silver , double guilt , and withall , gave the perpetuall advouzon of the parsonage of saint mary abchurch to the colledge ; these , with many other deeds of charity , this reverend prelate freely did performe . but one thing i cannot omit of him , which was his great care for the preservation of ancient histories , whose names before this time had perished , but that that fastened a nomenclature , or catalogue of the authors . this father of the church deceased in the yeere of jesus incarnation 1574 , being 70. yeeres old , and lies buryed in the ch●ppell at lambeth , covered with a marble , and an ingraven epitaph : his workes are these that follow . 1. a sermon when mar. bucer was buried , out of wisdome , cap. 4 ver . 7. to 19. 2. a booke of the antiquity of the church of canterbury , and of 70. archbishops of that see. 3. the history of england of mathew paris . 4. the flowers of the history of mathew of westminster . 5. the history of gyrald the welchman , of tho. walsin● , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 famous father , of whom it is said , integer , & vera relligionis amans . iohn foxe behold this man , and thou canst not choose but wonder at his extraordinary labour and travaile , to gather together so many of gods servants in a bundle : hee was borne in the county of lancaster , his young yeeres shewed that he was layd out for a scholler , and so he had education accordingly in a famous schoole . after being ripe , he was sent to oxford , and was admitted into magdalen colledge , where hee gave himselfe strictly to study , and then profest divinity : hee attained to an excellent skill in the latine , greek , and hebrew tongues in king edward 6. his reigne , and for his better safety and security , left this kingdome in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dayes , and lived in the low-c●untries . but when the date of that q●eenes dayes were expired , he cam● back● into england , and p●oved a famous divine . h● had an exc●llent faculty in preaching , and added ●o painefulness● constancy and willingnesse ; but that worke o● his called the history of the 〈◊〉 , made his name fam●us in this kingdome , and else where , and will for ev●r 〈◊〉 his praise . he w●s a man of an humble spirit , and h●d t●uely lea●n'd tha● doctr●ne of st. paul , in what estate soever he was in , therewithall to be content . hee was one that had , as it seem'd , crucified himselfe to the world , and its vanities , as it may appeare in a kind and fatherl● reprehension of his eldest sonne , who having a great mind to travel into forraigne parts , which when hee had p●rformed , he came to his father in oxford , then being old , and he being a●tired in a loose out-landish fashion , who are you said his father not knowing him ? to whom his sonne replyed , i am your sonne : to whom this master foxe answered , oh what enemy of thine hath taught thee so much vanity ? which speech of his shewed , that his minde was weaned from the love of the world . and indeed , i cannot conceive how hee could have any liberty to addict himselfe to follow delights and pleasures , doing so exquisi●ely such rare pieces of schollership , which tooke up all his time : nay , it is rather to be wondred , how he performed so great labours in so short a time ; which he could not have done without long and tedious watchings , and fastings ; which three , study , fasting , and watching , will subiect the flesh to the spirit ; and this course tooke ●ee . this man never sought af●er greedily any promotions or preferments , but held and ●pproved of that estate in which he dyed : he departed ●his life in london , and lyes ●uried in the church of saint giles without cripple-gate , upon whose marble monument his sonne samuel foxe hath caused to bee ingraven this inscription , christo , s. s. to john foxe , his honoured father , the faithfull martyrologian 〈◊〉 our english church , a mos● disert searcher into th● antiquities of histories a most stiffe bulwarke and fighter for the evan gelicall truth , which hath revived the martyr● as so many phoenixes , from the dust of oblivion , is this monument made : he dyed 18. of aprill , 1587. and of his age 70. he writ and set forth these things that follow . 1. meditations on the apoca●ps . 2. a treatise of christ crucifi● , lat. 3. of christ try●mphing , in 〈◊〉 . 4. the continuation of willi● haddon against osorius . 5. against the pope , lat. 6. short and comfortable ex●rtations to the afflicted , angli● . 7. short notes of election in english. 8. the foure evangelists in saxon-english . 9. his history of martyrs . 10. a sermon made at the baptizing of a iew , the text out of the 11. to the romans , in l● tine . 11. vrbanus rhegius 〈◊〉 faith , translated . 12. one hundred and fifty ti tles and orders of common places 13. a supplication to the english lords for the afflicted brethren . 14. a gratulatory to the english church , and to her pastors . 15. of the eucharist . 16. of receiving those that are fallen . 17. expostulation of christ with mankind . 18. against the calumnies of del-rius . 19. of excommunication . these be the fruits that this ●ighteous tree , planted in gods church , did bring forth , which doe sufficiently declare him . wil●iam grindall this great divine wa● borne in cumberland ▪ he studied the liberall art● and sciences at cambridge i● pembrooke-hall , of which society hee was first made fellow , and afterwards master . after this he was taken of nicolas ridley , the● lord bishop of london , to be his houshold chaplaine , which worthy prelate commended him to king edward 6 , but the unwished ▪ for death of that king hastening , hee did misse of preferment that way . then he , in the reigne of 〈◊〉 mary , went into germany , and lived there till that queene dyed ; but she being dead , hee returned home againe , and was chosen by queene elizabeth to that preferment , which king edward the sixt had laid out for him , 1550. that was the bishopricke of london ; which see he did wisely and religiously governe about 11. yeeres , and then 1570. hee was made archbishop of yorke , where he was archbishop 6. yeeres ; from whence for his singular piety and learning , he was in the yeere 1575. installed archbishop of canterbury , where he ruled the affaires of the church of england the space of 7. yeeres dextrously , and religiously : two yeeres before his death hee lost his sight ; but death comming , tooke away this glorious lampe of our english nation ; and hee lyes buryed at croydon , 1583. and of his age 64. this prelate was not void , but plentiful , and abounding in good works , and charitable actions : witnesses are first that free grammar schoole , which hee built at st. bees , or bege in comberland , a little towne , which schoole he endowed with the yearely revenewes of thirty pounds for ever . he tyed upon pembrook-hall , lands worth twenty two pounds yearely for ever , for the maintenance of a greek lecturer , and for the sustenance of one fellow and two schollers , which should be sent from bees schoole : he also gave to the same hall divers worthy and rare bookes , and a piece of plate , weighing forty ounces of silver . hee granted likewise to magdalen colledge in cambridge a yeerely pension for ever , for the maintenance of one fellow , which should be taken from his schoole at st. bege in comberland : he gave also to christs colledge in cambridge , a place of excellent literature and piety , from which hath sprung many a famous divine and statesman , a piece of plate , weighing forty sive ounces : he gave likewise to queenes colledge in oxford , the yearely revenewes of twenty pounds for ever , to the maintenance of one fellow and two schollers , to be chosen out of the aforesaid schoole ; and at his death he bequeathed to the same queenes colledge in oxford a great part of the bookes in their library , and a piece of plate , and forty pounds in money : he likewise gave to eight poore almes-men at croydon , meanes valued yearely at 50 pounds : lastly , he gave to the city of canterbury 100 pounds of english money , to be for ever for a stocke for to set the poore of that city on worke , and to keepe them from idlenesse and beggery : and so having done such , and so many remarkable passages of charity , this reverend metropolitane is laid to rest in the lord. there is a sermon of his , which he preached at st. pauls crosse , when the funeralls of the emperor ferdinand were celebrated , in english. lavrens hvmpherde this worthy divine was borne in the county of buckingham , studied in the famous nursery , and seed-plot of learning , the vniversity of oxford , in magdalen colledge : hee departed this land , as many other great divines , and religious professors did in queene maries reigne , but in the beginning of queene elizabeth , he returned home , and was excellent for the pulpit , or the schools , and tooke his degree of doctor in divinity ; hee by his great abilities of learning , set fo●th gods glory , and mightily discovered that dangerous nest of iesuites , with their close and politique practices against princes and their settled governments , if they were not 〈◊〉 to the roman bishop . his books which he hath ●et forth , doe evidently decla●e , and manif●ly prove , with what diligence and study hee found out the frauds & impostures of the followers of rome , by ancient histories : hee was made publique professor of divinity ; or else doctor of the chaire in oxford , and president of magdalen colledge , which dignities and preferments , he did many yeeres with great commendation and approbation keepe and enioy : he ended his life at oxford , and was there buried in the yeare of christs incarnation , 1589 , the whole vniversity deploring and lamenting deepely the losse of so famous a governour , and did see that his funerall rites were with all solemnity duly pe●formed ● answerable to his place and office : hee was intimate with bishop iuel , and grieved for his death ; and the church of england missed them both : this humphred was at the time of his death , little lesse than seventy yeares old : his works are here faithfully ●ecorded . 1. of nobility , and the ancient originall of it . 2. a little booke of the conservation of true religion . 3. consent of the fathers of iustification . 4. interpretation of tongues . 5. of iesuitisme , 1. part of the practice of the roman court against common-wealths , and princes , with a premonition to english men . 6. iesuitisme ; 2 part of puritan-poperie , or the doctrine iesuiticall , against campian , and iohn duraeus , also harding , a confutation : also pharisaisme , old and new : a sermon in oxford , anno 1582. 7. of the life and death of iuell , with the defence of his doctrine , and refutation of obiections of harding , sands , cope . &c. 8. origen of true faith translated , with a preface to the same author and doctor . 9. st. cyrills commentaries upon isaiah into latine , translated . 10. an index to forslers he ▪ brew lexicon , by him made . 〈◊〉 ba●ington this prelate as hee was excellent for his parts , so was hee of a very faire descent , being borne in the county of nottingham , of the ancient family of the babingtons in the said county , where hee drew in the first rudiments of literature , till by his worthy parents hee was sent to cambridge , and was admitted into that worthy society of trinity colledge , doctor whitguift being then master . this babington proved so famous in schollership , that having his degrees , hee was made fellow of the same colledge ; and giving himselfe to the study of divinity , he proved a worthy preacher in that vniversity . after , being doctor in divinity , he was called by henry , that noble earle of pembrooke , to be his chaplaine , by whose favour he was first made treasurer of the church of landasse in wales , after hee was elected bishop of the same , 1591. and when he had sitten 4. yeeres in that see , for his singular piety and learning , he was by queene elizabeth translated to the bishopricke of exceter , where he scarce stayed 3. yeeres , but he was made bishop of worcester , and in the middest of all these preferments hee was neither tainted with idlenesse or pride , or covetousnesse , but was not onely diligent in preaching , but in writing bookes , for the understanding of gods word ; so that he was a true patterne of piety to the people , of learning to the ministery , and of wisedome to all governours : whereupon he was made one of the queenes councell for the marches of wales . he was bishop of worcester about the space of 13. yeeres : he dyed of an hecticke feaver , and so changed this fraile life for a better in the yeere of our lord 1610. not without the great griefe of all , and had all funerall rites bestowed on him , befitting so great and so grave a governour , and father of the church ; and was buried in the cathedrall church of worcester , in the moneth of may. his workes extant are these that follow . 1. consolatory annotations upon genesis , exodus , leviticus , numbers , and deuteronomy . 2. upon the 10. commandements , the lords prayer , and the articles of the creed . 3. a comparison or collation betweene humane frailty & faith . 4. three worthy & learned sermons . thomas holland . this worthy instrument of our church , was borne in shropshire , in the marches of wales , and studied in that flourishing vniversity of oxford in exeter colledge : i have placed him among these famous divines for his excellent knowledge and learning , & admirable indowments of his minde : he was graced with the stile of doctor in divinity by the vniversity his mother : he long time professed divinity in the same academy , and at last , with the generall suffrages of all , he was placed doctor of the chaire , in which hee succeeded doctor humphred , which place , this doctor for many yeare together held with the generall acclamations of all , as wel of our owne , as forraigne divines : but his disputations in publicke , which are yet in coppies in some schollers hands , are demonstrations sufficient to set forth his schollership : hee that preached his funerall sermon , doth praise him sufficiently , tearming him another apollos powerfull in scriptures . hee was admirably well read in the fathers : so that he was as it were familiar with them ; and hee was excellent for schoole-men : so that he was of some , called the seraphicke doctor . he was subtile in his arguments and disputations , and quicke at resolving doubts and questions , so that with great applause he was doctor of the chaire for twenty yeares together , how many famous glistering starres proceeded from him into our church ? so that he was truely ( as gregory nazianzen spoke of his father ) an abraham , the father of many children : to wit by scholasticall creation , and even to the highest degree that the vniversity doth afford . i passe over many reverend schollers , and some bishops of this kingdome , that were his sonnes this way , but yet i cannot passe over those two famous pillars and supporters of our church , those reverend paire of fathers , george abbat , arch-bishop of canterbury , and john king bishop of london : in briefe , he was not onely a sincere preacher of gods word , but a faithfull and constant practitioner : he was zealous for gods honour , and alwayes hated idolatry and superstition : as appeared by his speech to the fellowes of this colledge , when he at any time went into the countrey , i commend you to the love of god , and wish you to hate popery and superstition : hee was for holinesse of life a pattern to all . the whole time of his siknesse he was fervent in prayers and eiaculations , full of ardency : when his breath grew short hee uttered this speech in latine , veni , oh ! veni domine iesu , stella matutina veni domine iesu , cupio dissolvi & esse tecum : which is in english , come , oh come lord iesu , the bright morning starre , come lord iesu , i desire to bee dissolved and to be with thee , and having spoken these words , quietly surrendred up his soule into the lords hands , leaving this life for a better● hee dyed and was buried in oxford , according to the honoured custome of the vniversity , with all funerall rites that were to bee performed for so famous a man in the moneth of march , 1612. being then littles lesse than threescore and thirteen years of age . robert abbat the place of this famous schollers birth was guilford in surrey , a towne of good repute ; and his parents were honest and vertuous and not obscure . he was ●nished with learning 〈◊〉 ●orts 〈◊〉 that ancient colledge in oxford , called b●l , because builded by one of that name , a king of scotland . he was doctor in divinity , and master of the said colledge ; in w●ich government hee s●ed what a worthy prelar● 〈◊〉 would prove to our english church : he was not onely thus adorned , but he was made doctor of the chaire , which place doctor holland had kept with great praise the space of twenty yeares . this our learned abbat , after that hee had 20. yeeres proved himselfe a famous and painfull divine , and by his writings set forth , had learnedly opposed his adversaries of the romish church ; hee was by king james of blessed memory , consecrated bishop of salisbury the third of december , in the yeere 1615. and in this regard hee may iustly be said to equallize seffred once bishop of chichester , because that this as well as he , lived to see his brother lord archbishop of canterbury , primate , and metropolitan of all england . while he sate lord bishop of this diocesse , he brought forth that learned and solid piece of divinity , concerning grace and the perseverance of the saints , which was termed his vox cygnea , because he presently after dyed ; that speech which hee made to the vniversity of oxford , is also full of schollership , which beginnes thus in lattine : salva veneranda mater , ac●demiarum decus & gloria , and so goes on with expressions of his care and love to her : all haite , oh reverend mather , the glory and grace of all vniversities : i cannot . containe 〈◊〉 selfe , but i must needes reioyce and be glad that i have suckt thy breasts , and not onely have had time to learne , but also to teach publickly in thy schooles : i will never rest to wish thee ● thousand happinesses and blessings , and all successefull prosperities ; but the businesse that i am now to deliver , to thee from my soveraigne , is , that thy students would be carefull to avoyde those bertians , grevincovians , thomsons , and the like writers , who never are content with the old pathes , but are inventing new ones , and thinke that they doe nothing well , unlesse they be singular : oh i desire thee to retaine thy old piety and sincerity : i hope this of thee , and i wish that thou maist for ever flowrish and increase , and be a pillar and ground-worke of truth , untill the second comming of the lord jesus . he lived not long in that see , till death took him from us , for he sate but two yeares & three moneths , but he did mainly imploy his time , both in publicke and private , and so by reason his life was sedētary , he was troubled with the stone , & at 58. years of his age departed , not without the griefe of the whole clergy & people , but specially of the inhabitants of salisbury : at the instant houre of death , he cald his servants and with great paines declared his faith and told them they should finde in his writings ; he sealed up his writings with these words , that faith which i have set forth , is the truth , and in that faith i dye , and so gave up the ghost in march , 1618. and lies buried in sarisbury cathedrall church . his workes are here set downe . 1. the reformed catholick in 3. tomes in english , against wil. bishop , an english papist in the defence of william perkins . 2. a demonstration of antichrist , against cardinal bellarmine , & other papists in latine . 3. a defence of his bookes against the cavils and sophistications of eudaemon-iohn , for isack causabon , and against the apologie of the said iohn , for garner . 4. the old way : a sermon in latine at oxford , set forth by thomas drax. iohn whitgift looke upon , and wonder at the effigies of this reverend prelate , who was so eminent a governour of our english clergy : he was borne in york-shire , of an ancient family of the whitguifts , and was the eldest sonne of henry whitguift , of great grimsbey in lincolne-shire , merchant : he had an unckle called robert whitguift abbat of wellow monastery in lincolnshire , of which unckle he had education , who was wont to say , that neither he , nor the popish religion would long continue , and used this saying of our saviour , matth. 15. 13. every plant which my heavenly father hath not planted , shall be rooted up . his unckle seeing his forwardnesse to learning , sent him to london to schoole : ( in st. annes schoole ) where prositing much , by the advice of his said unckle , hee was sent to cambridge : he was at first admitted of queenes colledge ; but not liking that house , he removed to pembrooke hall , nicholas ridley being then master ; who being certified of master bradford of this schollers forwardnesse and poverty , ( for his father was decayed by losses at sea ) he gave him a schollership in that hall , and 1555 , he was made fellow of peter-house , doctor pearne being then president , or master , who favoured him in queene maries dayes . he having before taken 3. degrees , went forth at last , doctor of divinity , and canvas'd this question , that the pope is antichrist : being also a famous preacher : hee succeeded doctor hutton , who was arch-bishop of yorke , from a fellow , to bee master of pembrooke hall , and was doctor coxes chaplaine , the bishop of ely. he was likewise made the lady margaret countesse of richmond her lecturer , or professor ; which hee performed with such praise , that hee was made in short time the queenes doctor of the chaire : hee comming to preach before queene elizabeth , was so well approved of her , that she made him master of trinity colledge , & was sworne her chaplaine in the yeare , 1567. hee was for ten yeares master of that famous society , with the approbation of all the vniversity : except thomas cartwright , and some few others , who did oppose the rites and ceremonies of the church of england , which this whitguift maintained . the queene cald him to be deane of lincolne , which hee held 7 yeares ; while he staid in cambridge , by his excellent learning and moderation , he bred up many brave pupils , of which he saw 5. come to the dignity of bishops , to wit , redman , bishop of norwich ; babington , bishop of worcester ; rudd , bishop of st. davids ; golsborough , bishop of glocester ; and benedict , bishop of hereford : as also many lords , as the earles of worcester and comberland , baron le zouch , baron dunboyr , of ireland , nicholas bacon , and francis bacon , and the farle of essex , and divers others . having beene deane of lincolne seaven yeares , the queene gave him the bishopricke of worcester . 1577. and he taking his farewell of the vniversity , chose those words of st. paul to the corinthians , 2. cor. 13. 11. within a yeare after , hee was made vice-president of wales , sir henry sidney knight , being then he lord president : in the yeare 1583. upon the death of grindal , arch-bishop of canterbury , he was by the queene chosen for arch-bishop , and presently one of the lords of her maiestics honourable privy councell . during the reigne of this queene , he was in high esteeme , insomuch , that the queene would familiarly cal him , her blacke husband : and when this queene was on her death-bed , hee was admitted still to pray by her ; and when shee was speechlesse , yet she showed by signes of her liking his prayers , and departed , march 24. 1602. then king james , of blessed memory , comming to the crowne , he annoynted him , and set the crowne upon his head , and was alwayes high in the kings favour , but he grieved inwardly for queene elizabeths losse , and out-lived her but a few moneths ; for in february next , 1603. hee dyed ; but his sicknesse , king james hearing of , came to lambeth , and visited his arch-bishop , and after many sweet words spoken to him , told him , that he would pray to god to give him life : the arch-bishop strove to speake in latine to the king , but his words could not bee understood ; onely he often repeated this , pro ecclesia dei , that is , for the church of god , which were his last words , and so within few dayes after dyed , being aged 73. and arch-bishop more than 20 yeares : he was buried in the south side of the church at croydon , where there is a faire tombe in memory of him : he performed many worthy charitable deedes in all places where he lived ; as at lincolne , worcester , in the marches of wales , in kent , and surrey , but the chiefe of all , is that famous hospitall or almes-house at croydon , dedicated to the sacred trinity , in which a warden and 24. brethren and sisters are nourished : to which hee adioyned a faire free-schoole , with a house for the schoole-master , and endowed those places with a sufficient yearely revenew . many of his chaplaines came to be bishops : hee set forth no bookes , but onely one great volume in english , of the rises , ceremonies , and ecclesiasticall polity of our church defended , and one sermon preached before q. elizabeth , 24. of march , 1574. text ioh. 6. ver . 25 , 26 , 27. thomas becon . the life of man upon earth is a reall pilgrimage , and seldome is so setled or certaine , but each moment , may , and doth oftentimes induce a mutation : and wonder not that he is placed here , living so long before , but then i had not his effigies . this worthy and reverend clergy man had reall experience of changes ; for in the reigne of king edward the sixth , hee did professe divinity in the flourishing vniversity of oxford , without impeachment , or molestation : but in the time of queene mary , he , as well as divers others , left this kingdome , to enioy the liberty of their consciences , and to avoyd , if possible they could , a storme that fell in that queenes government , and so travelled into germany , but queene mary dying , hee returned to this land againe , and prov'd a diligent shepheard , and an eminent writer , as may bee proved by his very many treatises , worthily famous , and full of excellent divinity , which are extant , and to be sold in english , the catalogue of which , i have ioyned to his life ; there are none of his workes in latine that are to be had , except on learned disputation of the lords supper , which he composed in the time that he was ahroad : by which it doth easily and evidently appeare , how dearely hee embraced and loved the protestant religion : hee was chosen into the number of the prebendaries of canterbury , and kept it untill his dying day : he paied nature her debt about the eight yeare , 1570. being 60 yeares old : john parkhurst the bishop of norwich hath written verses in the commendation both of this man , and of his works & writings . his works are contained in three tomes , with study , diligence , piety , i have here set them in order . the first tome containes . 1. newes from heaven . 2. a banquet of christs birth . 3. a quadragesimal feast . 4. a method of praying . 5. a bundle or posie of flowers . 6. an invective against swearing . 7. discipline for a christian souldier . 8. davids harpe . 9. the government of vertue . 10. a short catechisme . 11. a booke of matrimony . 12. a christians new-yeares guift . 2. tome containes . 1. a jewell of mirth . 2. principles of christian religion . 3. a treatise of fasting . 4. the castle of comfort . 5. the soules solace . 6. the tower of the faithfull . 7. the christian knight . 8. homelies against whooredome . 9. the flowers of prayers . 10. a sweete boxe of prayers . 11. the sicke mans medicine . 12. a dialogue of christs nativity . 13. an invective against adultery . volumes in english , full fraught with learning and iudgement , as they are divided . 3. tome containes . 1. an epistle to the distressed servants of god. 2. a supplication to god for the restoring his word . 3. the rising of the popish masse . 4. common places of scripture . 5. a comparison betwixt the lords supper , and the papall masse . 6. articles of religion confirmed by the authority of the fathers . 7. the monstrous wages of the romane priests . 8. romish reliques . 9. difference betwixt gods word , and humane inventions . 10. acts of christ and antichrist , with their lives and doctrine . 11. chronicles of christ. 12. an abridgement of the new testament . 13. questions of the holy scripture . 14. the glorious triumph of gods word . 15. in the praise of death : all these were printed in the yeare 1564. 16. postills upon all the sundayes gospels , in quarto . 17. the medicine for the sicke , often printed in octavo by it selfe . iames movntagv when you shall reade this worthy prelate to be bishop of winchester , and dean of the kings chappell , and prelate of the noble order of the garter , and privy councellor to king james , know that he obtained these titles and honors by his vertue and learning . to passe by his noble descent from the montacutes , earles of salisbury : his father was a knight , that famous sir edward of boughton in northampton shire . his grandfather was councellor to king henry the eight ; his mother was the sister of the elder famous lord harington : hee had education in cambridge answerable to his birth , where his learning was such , that the vniversity bestowed both his title , master of arts , as also doctor in divinity before the set time : and the vniversity gained by him for that sidney-colledge founded by francis , countesse of sussex , his aunt : he being master of it , when as there were ill sents by the grounds lying about , dangerous and noysome , he brought trumpinton water through a new-cut way into the garden of the said colledge , both to the health of that colledge , and the whole vniversity . his young yeeres were admirably well seasoned , which made him prove so famous afterwards : for king james taking notice of him , presently swore him chaplain● in ordinary , and was made deane of liechfield , of the kings chappell , and presently after of worcester , and not long after lord bishop of bath , and wells . in which while he sate for eight yeeres , he seemed to have those honours bestowed on him for the publicke good , rather than for himselfe ; so rev●rend was his carriage , and pious his life , and charitable his hands . the poore in that hospitall lost a good maintainer , and all good men of that place a true bishop . he repaired the bishops palace almost ruined , and furnished it with a chappell , and gardens . his house at banovell speaks his praise , and posterity wil never forget his charity to the church of bath , begun one hundred yeeres since by oliver a bishop , and chiesly now at his cost and charges finished . if death had not prevented , here hee had plac'd a deane and choyristers , and his two worthy brethren , henry and sidney did provide that his purpose should not be voyd . at last translated hee was to vvinchester , where he did not so much looke after new honours , as new burthens . the house called vvinchester-house on the thames side , speaks his praise for her beauty , which hee bestowed on her almost decayed . farnham cas●le also is not filent of his worth and praise , which did so much partake of his bounty . he also adorned the tower in the castle of vvindsor , being his lot , as p●elate of the garter ; so that it is easily knowne , that in these works hee l●id out above 5000. pounds sterling . he dyed at greenwich of a dropsie , being aged 49. on the 13. of the kalends of august , 1618. leaving behind him foure famous brethren , knights ; sir edward the eldest , sir charles , which buried him ; sir henry , and sir sidney now living , master of the requests . he was not unmindfull of sidney colledge , but gave a yeerely stipend to the library . he desired to be buried in bath , where his tombe is to be seene of marble , and alabaster : his family did not onely misse him , but the vniversities , the court , and church ; and his death grieved the king mainely , for he loved him dearely for his care , integrity , sweetnesse of carriage , and learning . in a word , having lived a reverend father of our church , and alwayes imitating the piety of those renowned fathers , bishops , before him in the primitive times , hee is with them laid to rest , expecting the reward of the just , at that great day of jesus comming . william perkins . the place of this divines birth was marf● , not farre from the city of coventry , in warwick-shire : he was brought up and polished in learning in the vniversity of cambridge , where he made in short space excellent proofe and demonstration both of learning and piety ; so that he was not onely an excellent and diligent preacher , but also a quicke and dextrous writer of many treatises and commentaries , which , for their worth were many of them translated into latine , and sent beyond sea , where they were , and to this day are well approved of : so that his fame was not onely in this kingdome , but also in france , germany , and the low countries , and in some parts of spaine : for his workes many of them are in french , in high dutch , and low dutch , and his reformed catholicke translated into spanish , rests yet unanswered by any of that side . this divine was lame of his right hand , so that it was unfit to write withall , but what famous things hee did write with his left hand , not onely the corporation of christs colledge , but also the whole vniversity of cambridge afford long and sufficient testimonies : but alas ! he was taken from us in the vigour and strength of his age , being indeede , more fit for heaven than earth : hee sickned and dyed at cambridge , in the yeare of grace , 1602. not without many teares , and the griefe of all good men , being but aged 44. and had all the funerall solemnities and rites of the vniversity , as did befit so learned a man. his workes are here in order set downe . 1. a foundation of christian religion . 2. his golden chaine , or a description of divinity . 3. an exposition on the apostles creed . 4. an exposition of the lords prayer . 5. a declaration of the state of grace and condemnation . 6. cases of conscience . 7. a discourse of the tongue , done into latine by thomas draxe . 8. of the nature and practice of repentance . 9. of the meanes to dye well , in all states and times . 10. of the combate of the flesh and spirit into latine by drax. 11. of the course to live well . 12. a treatise of conscience . 13. the reformed catholicke . 14. of the true meanes to know christ crucified , and the graine of mustard-seed into latine , by thomas drax. 15. of true vvealth . 16. of the idolatry of the last times . 17. of gods free grace , and of free will in men. 18. of mens callings . 19. of predestination in latine by the author . 20. his bible harmony . 21. a dialogue of the worlds dissolution . these that follow , were set forth after the authors death . 1. three bookes of the cases of conscience , translated into latine by thomas drax and meyer . 2. commentaries on the five first chapters on the galathians . 3. of christian equity by crashaw . 4. of mans imagination , set forth by thomas peirson . 5. problemes against coxe , in latine by himselfe , set forth by samuel ward . 6. the key of prophesie , set forth by thomas tuke . 7. commentaries upon the fifth , sixth , and seventh chapters of matthew set forth by thomas peirson . 8. commentaries on the three first chapters of the apocalyps , by robert hill , & tho. peirson . 9. of the tentation of christ , matt. from the 1. ver . to the 12. of the 4. chapter . 10. an exhortation to repentance . 11. two excellent treatises of ministers calling , set out by master crashaw . 12. a commentary on iudes epistle , by thomas pickering . 13. of poysoning a treatise . 14. against prognosticks : an answer to a countrey fellow . 15. of the houshold discipline , in latine by the author , now englished . will : whitaker . although those of the church of rome have had many rare schollers which have confuted their erronious and superstitious tenents , yet of late , scarce any have so convinced them as iuel and vvhittakers . he was borne in lancashire , and was sent to the vniversity of cambridge , and was admitted into that famous society of trinity colledge , where hee proved a famous scholler , both in tongues , and all manner of theology ; and so was made the kings professor of divinity , and master of saint johns colledge , which preferment he long held ; and in that space he had often combatings with many great romish priests and iesuits ; as stapleton , sanders , reinolds , and campian ; with what successe any man of iudgement or discretion can easily discerne , and not daunted with these combatants , hee set upon their chiefe goliah , and champion himselfe , even great bellarmine the cardinall , whose arguments and obiections he hath so succinctly and solidly answered , that all the divines of europe give him great praise ; and if he had not beene taken away by death , hee had answered all the tomes of bellarmine exquisitely : however , i have heard it confest of english papists themselves , which have bin in italy with bellarmine himselfe , that hee procured the true portraicture and effigies of this whitaker to bee brought to him , which he kept in his study ; for hee privately admired this man for his singular learning and ingenuity , and being asked of some of his friends iesuites , why hee would have the picture of that heretique in his presence ? hee would answer , quod quamvis hereticus esset & adversarius , esset tamen . doctus adversarius : that although he was an heretique and his . adversary , yet he was a learned adversary : to which i may iustly say , that hee was a pious man , and a solid teacher , and dyed in peace and quietnesse of conscience , to the griefe of all england , and especially of the vniversity of cambridge , in the yeare of our lord , 1595. and of his age forty seaven , and was buryed at cambridge , in st. iohns colledge , with great solemnity and funerall ornamenns befitting so great a learned man as he was , where in the same place you may reade his epitaph , engraven , and set in golden letters upon the wall by his sepulchre , in the chappell of st. iohns colledge : his workes are famous , and follow here truely registred . 1. against thomas stapleton a papist his defence of ecclesiasticall authority in three bookes , with an authority of the scriptures . 2. a solid refutation of nicholas sanders , his forty demonstrations , that the pope is not antichrist , because hee is but one man , and there ha●ing beene two hundred popes . 3. a christian answer to the tenne reasons of edmund campian the iesuite . 4. a defence of iohn harding the iesuite answered , and the tenne reasons of edmund campian , which hee offered to the ministers of the church of england . 5. fragments of the old heresies , which helpe to make up the romane church . 6. theses propounded and defended at the commencement at cambridge , 1582. the summe of which was , that that the pope is the antichrist spoken of in scripture . 7. a disputation of the ●ly scripture against the papists of this time , especially against robert bellarmine and stapleton . 8. certaine lectures of the controversies of the church , distributed into seven questions ; a worke set forth after his death , by iohn allenson . 9. a controversie of councels against iesuites , especially bellarmine , in sixe questions . 10. a treatise of originall sinne , in three bookes , against three bookes of thomas stapleton , of universall iustification . 11. lectures upon the controversie of the romane bishop , di●ibuted into eight questions , chiefely against bellarmine . 12. his cygnea cantio , or his last sermon to the clergie at cambridge 1595. with a true description of his life and death . 13. a translation of a booke of iuel against harding , in latine . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a14345-e7390 tabernis rhenanis . truth maintained, or positions delivered in a sermon at the savoy: since traduced for dangerous: now asserted for sound and safe. by thomas fuller, b.d. late of sidney colledge in cambridge. the particulars are these. i that the doctrine of the impossibility of a churches perfection, in this world, being wel understood, begets not lazinesse but the more industry in wise reformers. ii that the church of england cannot justly be taxed with superstitious innovations. iii how farre private christians, ministers, and subordinate magistrates, are to concurre to the advancing of a publique reformation. iiii what parts therein are only to be acted by the supreme power. v of the progresse, and praise of passive obedience. vi that no extraordinary excitations, incitations, or inspirations are bestowed from god, on men in these dayes. vii that it is utterly unlawfull to give any just offence to the papist, or to any men whatsoever. viii what advantage the fathers had of us, in learning and religion, and what we have of them. ix that no new light, or new essentiall truths, are, or can be revealed in this age. x that the doctrine of the churches imperfection, may safely be preached, and cannot honestly be concealed. with severall letters, to cleare the occasion of this book. fuller, thomas, 1608-1661. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a85036 of text r23497 in the english short title catalog (thomason .36[9]). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 198 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 52 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a85036 wing f2474 thomason .36[9] estc r23497 99872014 99872014 155016 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a85036) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 155016) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 7:e36[9]) truth maintained, or positions delivered in a sermon at the savoy: since traduced for dangerous: now asserted for sound and safe. by thomas fuller, b.d. late of sidney colledge in cambridge. the particulars are these. i that the doctrine of the impossibility of a churches perfection, in this world, being wel understood, begets not lazinesse but the more industry in wise reformers. ii that the church of england cannot justly be taxed with superstitious innovations. iii how farre private christians, ministers, and subordinate magistrates, are to concurre to the advancing of a publique reformation. iiii what parts therein are only to be acted by the supreme power. v of the progresse, and praise of passive obedience. vi that no extraordinary excitations, incitations, or inspirations are bestowed from god, on men in these dayes. vii that it is utterly unlawfull to give any just offence to the papist, or to any men whatsoever. viii what advantage the fathers had of us, in learning and religion, and what we have of them. ix that no new light, or new essentiall truths, are, or can be revealed in this age. x that the doctrine of the churches imperfection, may safely be preached, and cannot honestly be concealed. with severall letters, to cleare the occasion of this book. fuller, thomas, 1608-1661. saltmarsh, john, d. 1647. examinations. selections. fuller, thomas, 1680-1661. sermon of reformation. selections. [24], 78 p. s.n.], printed at oxford [i.e. london : anno dom. 1643. a partial reprinting and defense of his "sermon of reformation" and a partial reprinting of and reply to john saltmarsh's "examinations", including a reprinting of the preface to that work on leaf a2. the imprint is a counterfeit (madan). a reissue with cancel title page of the edition with london in imprint (wing f2475). however, this reissue lacks the full reprinting of fuller's "a sermon of reformation" ([2], 5-24 p.; a⁴-c⁴(-a1)) found in wing f2475. statements made by the author in "to my deare parish saint mary savoy" (c1r) and "to the reader" (c4r) in the preliminaries indicate that the sermon was intended to be included as part of this work, and it may be that copies without the sermon are simply imperfect reissues. the sermon was also apparently issued separately in the same year. annotation on thomason copy reads: "march 8". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng fuller, thomas, 1608-1661. -sermon of reformation -early works to 1800. saltmarsh, john, d. 1647. -examinations -early works to 1800. sermons, english -17th century. reformation -england -sermons -early works to 1800. a85036 r23497 (thomason .36[9]). civilwar no truth maintained, or positions delivered in a sermon at the savoy: since traduced for dangerous: now asserted for sound and safe. by thomas fuller, thomas 1643 34561 111 55 0 0 0 0 48 d the rate of 48 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-05 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-09 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2007-09 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion truth maintained , or positions delivered in a sermon at the savoy : since traduced for dangerovs : now asserted for sovnd and safe . by thomas fvller , b. d. late of sidney colledge in cambridge . the particulars are these . i that the doctrine of the impossibility of a churches perfection , in this world , being wel understood , begets not lazinesse but the more industry in wise reformers . ii that the church of england cannot justly be taxed with superstitious innovations . iii how farre private christians , ministers , and subordinate magistrates , are to concurre to the advancing of a publique reformation . iiii what parts therein are only to be acted by the supreme power . v of the progresse , and praise of passive obedience . vi that no extraordinary excitations , incitations , or inspirations are bestowed from god , on men in these dayes . vii that it is utterly unlawfull to give any just offence to the papist , or to any men whatsoever . viii what advantage the fathers had of us , in learning and religion , and what we have of them . ix that no new light , or new essentiall truths , are , or can be revealed in this age . x that the doctrine of the churches imperfection , may safely be preached , and cannot honestly be concealed . with severall letters , to cleare the occasion of this book . i will beare the wrath of the lord , because i have sinned against him , untill he plead my cause , and execute iudgement for me ; then will he bring me forth to the light , and i shall see his righteousnesse , micah . 7. 9. printed at oxford , anno dom. 1643. to the most sacred , and reverend assembly for the reformation of the church , now convened by the parliament . most sacred and reverend divines , i have but the thoughts of an afternoone to spread before you ; for i examined the same pace that i read , that if it were possible a truth might overtake an errour , ere it goe too farre . it is not a little encouragement that i may sit like the prophetesse under the palme tree , under such a shade as your selves , and what weakenesse soever may appeare in these my assertions : this ayring them under your patronage , will heale them . for so they brought forth the sick into the streets , that at least the shadow of peter might touch some of them . thus have i suddenly set up my candle for others to light their torch at ; and , i hope , you will pardon me , if my zeale to the truth made me see anothers faults sooner then mine owne , your servant in christ iesus iohn saltmarsh . to the two most famous vniversities of england i dare not give you such high epithites as master saltmarsh bestoweth upon the assembly , to call you the most sacred . be contented to be stiled the two most famous vniversities ; a title , which it is no flattery to give you , but injury to deny you . i have the studies of some whole dayes to spread before you . i am not ashamed to confesse so much , but should be ashamed to present your learned considerations with lesse . and will rather runne the hazard of other mens censure , to have studied so long to no purpose , then to be guilty to my selfe of so much disrespect to you , as to offer to your patronage what cost me but sleight studying . indeed i examined his examinations of my sermon with the same pace that i read them . but i could not confute his errors so speedily as i could discover them , nor could i so soon make them appeare to others , as they appeared to me ; and the evidencing of his faults did cost me some paines , whereof i hope i shall never have just cause to repent . i am altogether out of hope that my truth should quickly overtake his error , which had the advantage of me both at the starting and in the speed ; and yet i beleeve what i want in the swiftnesse of my feet , i shall have in the firmenesse of my footing . and when i overtake it at last , as i am sure i shall , seeing untruths will tire ( as being better at hand then at length ) i am confident by gods assistance , it will get firme and quiet possession in spight of opposition . it is altogether improper for mee to compare you being two in number to the palme tree under which the prophetesse deborah sate ; but the analogie will , hold well , if i should resemble you to the two olive trees continually dropping oyle in the presence of god . and methinks master saltmarsh his expression to the assembly , vnder svch a shade as yovr selves , making them in the assembly but a shadow , ( and then what is the shadow of a shadow worth under which hee desireth to sit ? ) was but an undervaluing and diminutive expressing of their worth . i honour you as you deserve , and counting you a real and lasting substance , so i addresse my respects unto you : humbly requesting you to be pleased to patronize and defend this my defence : the rather because what doctrines therein i deliver , not long since i suckt from one of you , and in this respect i beleive both breasts give milke alike ; and therefore as your learning is most able , so your goodnesse will bee willing to protect the same , not so much because i had them from you , as because you had them from the truth . some perchance may blame my choice in choosing you for my protection who in these troublesome times are scarce able to defend your selves ▪ the universities being now degraded , at least suspended from the degree of their former honour . and i wonder , men should now talke of an extraordinary great light , when the two eyes of our land ( so you were ever accompted ) are almost put out . however this short interruption of your happinesse will but adde the more to your honour hereafter . and here , as it were store of pride for me to counsell you , so it were want of duty not to comfort you . know , the only good token of these times is , that they are so extreamely bad they can never last long . god give you a sanctified impression of your afflictions , neither to sleight them nor sink under them ; and so , forbearing to be longer troublesome to your more serious employments , resteth the meanest of your sonnes or nephewes thomas fuller . to the learned and my worthy good friend , master charles herle . sir , when i read a pamphlet of m. saltmarsh written against me , it something moved my affections , but nothing removed my judgement . but when i saw it recommended to the world with your approbation , in this manner , nihil invenio in hoc libello , cui titulus , ( examinations , or a discovery of some dangerous positions , delivered in a sermon of reformation preached by tho. fuller , b. d. quin utiliter imprimatur . charles herle . i must confesse it troubled me not a little , suspecting either my eyes or my understanding , that either i misread your name , or had mis-written something in my sermon . wherefore fearing partiality might blind me in mine owne book ( knowing that eli was not the onely indulgent father to his owne off-spring ) i imparted my sermon to some whom you respect , and they respect you : men of singular learning and piety , to examine it . these likewise could discover no dangerous positions in it , except such as were dangerous for a preacher to deliver , but safe for people to receive in these troublesome times . and i am confident that their iudgement was such , they would not be deceived with my falsehoods : and their honesty such , they would not deceive me by their flattery . and now sir ( love cannot hate , but it may justly be angry ) consider how your accusing of me , to maintaine dangerous positions , might , as the times stand , have undone me and mine , and at least have intituled mee to a prison , now adayes the grave of men alive . times are not as formerly , when schollers might safely traverse a controversie in disputation . honourable tilting is left off , since men fell to down-right killing ; and in vaine should i dispute my innocence against souldiers violence , who would interpret the accusation of a man of your credit to be my sufficient conviction . i have in this my defence , so well as god did enable me , more clearely expressed , and strongly confirmed the positions i formerly delivered , and request you to tell mee , which are the dangerous points that here i maintaine . by the lawes of our land , the creditor hath his choice , whether he will sue the principall , or the surety , and discretion will advise him , to sue him which is most solveable . your ability is sufficiently knowne , and seeing you have beene pleased to be bound for master saltmarsh his booke , in your approving it : blame me not sir , if i ( i will not say sue you ) but sue to you for my reparation . if you can convince me of my faults herein ( and i will bring great desire , and some capacity to learne from you ) i shall owne my selfe your proselyte , thanke god for you , and you for my conversion . yea in a printed sheet i will doe publique penance to the open view of the world , to shew men , that although i had so much ignorance as to erre , i have not so much impudence as to persist in an errour , and shall remaine , yours in all christian offices . thomas fuller . to the reverend and his worthy good friend , master iohn downam . sir , being about to read master saltmarsh his examination of a sermon of mine , which you ( to the preachers credit , and printers security ) were pleased to approve for orthodox and vsefull , mine eyes in the beginning thereof , were entertained ( i cannot say welcomed ) with this following note , an advertisement returned to the author , by a reverend divine , to certifie him touching the licensers allowance of master fullers late sermon of reformation . sir , to satisfie you concerning m. downams approbation of master fullers sermon of reformation , i assure you i heard him complaine , that he was wronged by him , in that having taken exception at some passages of that sermon , master fuller promised to amend them according to his correction , but that he did not performe what he promised . conclude me not guilty if i were moved , but sencelesse if i had not beene perplext with this accusation . had it beene true , i want a word bad enough to expresse the foulenesse of my deed . yea iustly may my preaching be suspected of falshood , if my practise be convicted of dishonesty . we know how the corinthians , from the supposed breach of s. pauls solemne promise , were ready to infer the falsity , at least the levity of his doctrine , till the apostle had rectified their mistake . this added also to my trouble , that i can privately enjoy my innocence with more contentment to my selfe , then i can publikly declare it with safety to others . for the present therefore , all that i will returne , is this . here is an accusation without a witnesse , or a witnesse without a name , and both without truth . would the inke of this reverend divine ( whosoever he was ) only hold out to blot my name , and not to subscribe his owne ? we know what court was complayned of , as a great grievance , because men therein might not know their accusers . if it cannot consist with our mutuall safety , to have my accusers ( as s. paul had ) face to face , yet it will stand with equity , i should have them name to name : till when , i account this namelesse note , no better then a libel both on you and me . god put an end unto these wofull times , before they put an end to us ; that all outward hostility being laid aside , we may have more leisure to attend , and comfort to follow , that inward christian warefare , which your paines have so well described . yours in christ iesus thomas fuller . to master john saltmarsh minister of heslerton in yorke-shire . sir , you have almost converted me , to be of your opinion , that some extraordinary light is peculiarly conferred on men in this age . seeing what cost me many dayes to make , you in fewer houres , could make void and confute . you examined ( you say ) the same pace , you read , and ( as is intimated ) wrote as fast , as you examined , and all in one ofternoon . this if it were false , i wonder you would say it ; and if it were true , i wonder you could doe it . however i commend your policy herein : for besides that you have given the world notice of the pregnancie of your parts , ( and it is no fault of yours , if you be rather heard then beleeved ) hereby you have done me a great disadvantage . for if i at leisure discover some notable errors in your examinations , you have a present plea , that you wrote them suddenly , and i shall only be repaired for the wrong that you have done me , with your raptim scripta , whereas you had done god as much glory , the cause as much good , more right to your selfe , and credit to me , if you had tooke more time , and more truely . and now consider , you only endeavour to confute some dismembred sentences of my sermon , of which some are falsely , and more of them imperfectly alleged . you know , how in a continued speech , one part receives and returnes strength and lustre unto another . and how easie is it , to overthrow the strongest sentence , when it is cut off from the assistance of the coherence , before and after it ? alas , this disiointing of things , undoeth kingdomes as well as sermons , whilest even weake matters are preserved by their owne unity and entirenesse . i have dealt more fairely with you , and set downe your whole examinations , thereby not expecting any praise , but preventing just censure , if i had done otherwise . if you demand why my answer comes so late , seeing so long silence may be interpreted a consent . know sir , it was the tenth of september , before either friend in love , would doe me the favour : or foe in anger , the discourtesie , to convey your booke unto me . whether this proceeded from the intercepting commerce betwixt the city and the country , or that your booke was loath to come out of london : as sensible , that the strength of your positions , consisted in the fortifications thereof . when i had received one of your bookes , i had not your present parts to answer it . men must doe , as they may doe : i hope , though my credit may , gods cause shall not suffer by my delay ; seeing truth doth not abate with time . here i speake not of those many afflictions , that have befalne me , as not being so unreasonable , as to expect any pitty from others , in these dolefull dayes , wherin none are at leisure to bemoane the misery of any private men , whilst the generall calamity ingrosseth all greife to it selfe ; and yet , i may say , such losses could not but disturbe my studies . when i had finished my answer , i could not so speedily provide to have it printed . and to speake plainely , i was advised by my best friends , to passe by your pamphlet altogether with silence and neglect , and apply my selfe onely to enlarge my sermon , for the satisfaction of others . however , that you may see i will not decline any thing : i have answered every operative passage in your examination . here i might take just exception at the sentence prefixed in the title page of your booke , 2 tim. 3. 5. having a forme of godlinesse , but denying the power thereof . out of the whole quiver of the bible , could you choose no other arrow to shoot , and make me your marke ? whom if you taxe for a meere formalist ; god grant i may make a good use of your bad suspition of me , endeavouring to acquit my selfe in heaven , whom you have accused on earth : i must stand or fall to my owne master , to whom i hope i shall stand , being held up by my saviour . remember , remember , we must all appeare before gods judgment seat , when those things which have been done in secret , shall bebrought to light . meane time goe you on , a fast as you can in the high way to heaven ; but be not too free , willfully to dash your fellow travellers , with foule aspersions : for if dirt may passe for coine , debts in this nature , may easily be paid you backe againe , so resteth thomas fuller . to my deare parish saint mary savoy . my deare parish , for so i dare call you , as conceiving that although my calamities have divorced me from your bed and board , the matrimoniall knot betwixt us is not yet rescinded . no not although you have admitted another , ( for feare i hope rather then affection ) into my place . i remember how david when forced to fly from his wife , yet still cals her , my wife michall : even when at that time , she was in the possession of phaltiel the sonne of laish , who had rather bedded then wedded her . this sermon i first made for your sake , as providing it , not as a feast to entertaine strangers , but a meale to feed my family . and now having againe inlarged and confirmed it , i present it to you , as having therein a proper interest , being confident , that nothing but good and profitable truth is therein contain'd . some perchance will obiect , that if my sermon were so true , why then did i presently leave the parish when i had preached it ? my answer is legible in the capital letters of other ministers miserie , who remaine in the city . i went away , for the present distresse , thereby reserving my selfe to doe you longer and better service ? if gods providence shall ever restore me unto you againe . and if any tax mee as laban taxed iacob . wherefore didst thou flee away secretly , without taking solemne leave ? i say with iacob to laban , because i was afraid . and that plaine dealing patriarch , who could not be accused for purloining a shooe latchet of other mens goods , confesseth himselfe guilty of that lawfull felony , that hee stole away for his owne safety : seeing truth it selfe may sometimes seeke corners , not as fearing her cause , but as suspecting her judge . and now all that i have to say to you , is this , take heed how you heare : imitate the wise and noble bereans , whatsoever the doctor , or doctrine bee which teacheth , or is taught unto you . search the scripture dayly whether these things be so . hansell this my counsell , on this my booke : and here beginning , hence proceed to examine all sermons , by the same rule of gods word . only this i adde also , pray daily to god , to send us a good and happy peace ; before we be all brought to utter confusion . you know , how i in all my sermons unto you , by leave of my text , would have a passage in the praise of peace . still i am of the same opinion . the longer i see this warre , the lesse i like it , and the more i loath it . not so much because it threatens temporall ruine to our kingdome , as because it will bring a generall spirituall hardnesse of hearts . and if this warre long continues , we may be affected for the departure of charity , as the ephesians were at the going away of saint paul , sorrowing most of all , that we shall see the face thereof no more . strive therefore in your prayers that , that happy condition which our sinnes made us unworthy to hold , our repentance may , through gods acceptance thereof , make us worthy to regaine . your loving minister thomas fuller . to the unpartiall reader . be not aff●aid to peruse my positions , though they be accused to bee dangerous . the saints did not feare infection from the company of saint paul , though he was indicted to be a pestilent fellow . to acquaint you with my intentions in this book ( that so you may proportion your expectation accordingly ) herein i have to my power vindicated the truth : consulting with my conscience , not outward safety ; insomuch that i care not whom i displeased , to please the bird in my breast . yea when the actions of other men , have by the examiner beene laid to my charge , i have tooke the boldnesse to leave them to their authors to defend . for though honestie commands me to pay my owne debts , yet discretion adviseth me from solomons mouth , to avoid sureti-ship , and not to breake my selfe with being bound for the errors of others . i cannot but expect to procure the ill-will of many , because i have gone in a middle and moderate way , betwixt all extremities . i remember a story too truely appliable to me . once a jayler demanded of a prisoner , newly committed unto him : whether or no he were a roman catholick . no , answered he : what then said he are you an anabaptist ? neither replied the prisoner , what , ( said the other ) are you a brownist . nor so said the man , i am a protestant . then said the jayler , get you into the dungeon : i will afford no favor to you , who shall get no profit by you : had you beene of any of the other religions , some hope i had to gaine by the visits of such as are of your owne profession . i am likely to finde no better usage , in this age , who professe my selfe to be a plaine protestant , without wealt or garde , or any addi●ion : equally opposite to all hereticks and sectaries . let me mate this with another observation . by the law of the twelve tables , if a man were indebted but to one creditor , he had no power over his body : but if he owed mony to many , and was not solvable , all his creditors together might share his body betwixt them , and by joynt consent pluck him in peeces . me thinks , a good morall lurkes in this cruell law : namely , that men who oppose one adversary alone , may come off and shift pretty well , whilst he who provokes many enemies , must expect to bee torne asunder : and thus the poore levite , will bee rent into as many pieces , as the levites wife was . yet i take not my selfe to bee of so desolate and forlorne a religion , as to have no fellow professors with me . if i thought so , i should not only suspect , but condemne my judgement : having ever as much loved singlenesse of heart , as i have hated singularity of opinion . i conceive not my selfe like eliah to be left alone : having , as i am confident , in england , more then seventy thousand , just of the same religion with me . and amongst these , there is one in price and value , eminently worth tenne thousand , even our gratious soveraigne , whom god in safety and honour long preserve amongst us . and here i must wash away an aspersion , generally , but falsely cast on men of my profession and temper : for all moderate men , are commonly condemned for luke-warme as it is true , saepe latet vitium proximitate boni . it is as true , saepelatet virtus proximitate mali . and as lukewarmnesse hath often fared the better ( the more mens ignorance ) for pretending neighbourhood to moderation : so moderation ( the more her wrong ) hath many times suffered for having some supposed vicinity with lukewarmnesse . however they are at a grand distance , moderation being an wholesome cordiall to the soule : whilst lukewarmnesse ( a temper which seekes to reconcile hot and cold ) is so distastefull , that health it selfe seemes sick of it , and vomits it out . and we may observe these differences betwixt them . first the lukewarme man ( though it be hard to tell what he is ; who knowes not what he is himselfe ) is fix't to no one opinion , and hath no certain creed to beleeve ; whereas the moderate man , sticks to his principles , taking truth wheresoever he findes it , in the opinions of friend , or foe ; gathering an herb , though in a ditch : and throwing away a weed , though in a garden . secondly , the lukewarme man , is both the archer and marke himselfe ; aiming only at his owne outward security . the moderate man , levels at the glory of god , the quiet of the church , the choosing of the truth , and contenting of his conscience . lastly , the lukewarme man , as hee will live in any religion , so he will dye for none . the moderate man , what he hath warily chosen , will valiantly maintaine , at least wise intends , and desires to defend it , to the death . the kingdome of heaven ( saith our saviour ) suffereth violence . and in this sense , i may say , the most moderate men are the most violent , and will not abate an hoofe , or haires breadth , in their opinions , whatsoever it cost them . and time will come , when moderate men , shall be honoured as gods doves , though now they be hooted at , as owles in the desart . but my letter swels too great , i must break off . only requesting the reader by all obligations of charity . first , to read over my sermon , before he entreth on the examination . to conclude , when i was last in london , it was generally reported that i was dead : nor was i displeased to heare it . may i learne from hence with the apostle , to die daily . and because to god alone t is known , how soon my death may come , i desire to set forth this book as my will and testament , which if it can be of no use to the reader , it may be some ease and comfort to the writer , that the world may know , in this multitude of religions , what is the religion of thy servant in christ iesus thomas fuller . truth maintained . examiner . the a policy of the sermon of reformation . the scope of the sermon is reformation , but it so b moderates , so modificates , and conditionates the persons , and time , and businesse , that reformation can advance c little in this way , or method . as our astronomers who draw so many lines and imaginary circles in the heavens , that they put the sunne into an heavenly labyrinth and learned d perplexity ; such is the zodiack e you would make for the light of the gospell , and the sunne of reformation to move in . it was one of the policyes of the jewes f adversaries , that when they heard of their buildings , they would build with them . they said , let us build with you , for we seeke your god as you doe . but the people of god would have no such helpers , there is no such g jesuiticall way to hinder our worke as to work with us , and under such insinuations set the builders at variance when they should fall to labour . and how easie is it to reason flesh and blood back from a good way , and good resolutions ? i remember the old h prophet had soon perswaded even the man of god to returne when he told him i am a prophet as thou art . treatise . a. the policy of the sermon . ) such carnall policy wherein the subtilty of the serpent stings the simplicity of the dove to death , i utterly disclaim in my sermon . christian policy is necessary , as in our practice so in our preaching , for piety is alwayes to goe before it , but never to goe without it . b. but it so moderates and modificates . ) the most civill actions will turne wild , if not warily moderated . but if my sermon clogges reformation with false or needlesse qualifications ( till the strength of the matter leakes out at them ) my guilt is great . i am confident of my innocence , let the evidence be produced and the reader judge . c. that reformation can advance but little in this way . ) know that zoar a little one that is lasting , is better then a great babel of confusion . that reformation which begins slowly and surely , will proceed cheerfully and comfortably , and continue constantly and durably . builders are content to have their foundations creepe , that so their superstructures may runne ; let us make our ground-worke good , and no more hast then good speed . d. they put the sunne into an heavenly labyrinth and learned perplexity with their imaginary lines . ) this your strong line more perplexeth me to understand it : onely this i know , that you might have instanced more properly in any other planet which is more loaden with cycles , and epicycles , whilst the sunne hath found from astronomers this favour and freedome , to be left to the simplest motion . e. such a zodiack you would make for the light of the gospell . ) were i to spread the zodiack of the gospell , it should stretch from pole to pole , and be adequate to the heavens . there should be no more pagans in the world then there were smiths at one time in israel ; not that i would have any kild , but all converted ; yea the sunne of reformation should not have so much darknesse as a shadow to follow it . to effect this , my wishes are as strong as my power is weake . i will ( god willing ) pray and preach for it , and therefore doe not slander me to be an hinderer of the word . f. g. h. of the jewes adversaries . j●suiticall way . the old prophet . ) what you say is as true in the history as false in the application to me . you compare me to the ammonites ( adversaries to gods people , to jesuits , to the old lying prophet . i hope the god of michael the arch-angell will give me patience , when he that disputed with him shal furnish him others railing . and now torture me no longer with your accusation , come to the proofe . examiner . i find there are three principles animates the sermon . 1 how imperfect i a church will be and a reformation doe best you can . 2 that the light which the k fathers had formerly , was as full and glorious as the light of these dayes , or rather brighter . 3 that none but the supreame authority , or authority l royall , and that alone ought to begin and act in this reformation . treatise . i how imperfect a church . ) i said it and i say it againe ; it was a truth before your cradle was made , and will be one after your coffin is rotten . k that the light that the fathers had formerly , was as full & glorious . shew me such a sillable in all the sermon and i 'le yeeld the cause : not that this position is false , but because i never said it ; except you collect it from those my words where i say , that the moderns had a mighty advantage of the ancients who lived in the marches of paganismes and in the time wherein the mistery of iniquity began to worke . l. none but the supreame authority or authority royall . ) i said that the supreame authority alone in those respe●tive places wherein it is supreame , hath the lawfull calling to reforme . thus of the three principles which you reck●n in my sermon . the first i said i will defend it : the second i said not , and doe deny it : the third i said otherwise then you doe alleadge it . and yet even for the two latter ( that you may not complaine for want of play ) in due time as occasion is offered , i will fully discover my opinion , that so we may eitheir freely agree , or fairely dissent . examiner . these are your principles , and let m any judge if this be a qualification fit for him , that judges or writes of such a truth . for first , he that conceits there can be no perfection in a church , will n scarce labour to make that church better , which he is sure will be bad at all times : nor will he care for any new light , whilst the old is best reputation with him : nor will be seeke to advance the worke , but stay for a supreame authority alone : a good policy to stay the reformation till his majesties returne , and there is hopes it may coole in their hands . treatise . m , and let any judge . ) on gods blessing let any indifferent person , who is devested of prejudice , which maketh a bad witnesse and a worse judge : and now we joyne issues . n. for first , he that conceits there can be no perfection in a church , will scarce labour to make that church better . ) if the he you spake of be a meere carnall man , this nor any other principle ( save grace and gods spirit ) can spurre him on to goodnesse . but if this he be a regenerate man , this doctrine will make him tire no whit the sooner in his endeavours of reformation . you say , he will scarce labour , whereby you confesse he will labour . the gramarian saith , quod fere fit , non fit , quod vix fit , fit . one scarce is better then ten thousand almosts . yet i perceive by the scant measure in your expression , that you conceive this doctrine of the impossibility of a churches perfection on earth , to be but a backe friend to reformation . heare therefore what i answer for my selfe . first , hereby you furnish the papists with a cavill , and with a colour to enforce the same against the protestants . for we teach and maintaine , that the best workes of men are stained with some imperfections . hence the papists may inferre , that he that conceits there can be no perfection in a good deed , will scarce labour to doe one . and thus our doctrine shall be condemned for disheartning of holinesse . see sir how you meet popery in your undiscreet shunning of it . secondly , though there can be no absolute perfection in a church , yet quo ad gradum , in some good degree it is attainable , and all good men will endeavour it . mariners which make forth for the northerne discoveries , goe out with this assurance , that it is impossible to come to the pole . yet have they sought and found out very farre , almost to the eightieth degree of latitude . what covetousnesse or curiosity did in them , sure grace is as active to doe in gods children who will labour to draw neere to a perfect reformation , in obedience to gods command , though they know they shall never fully attaine unto it . thirdly , the doctrine of the impossibility of a perfect reformation in this world well understood , begets not idlenesse , but the more industry in mens endeavours . for those that beleeve that the perfection of a church may be attained in this life , are subject to this mistake ( one errour is procreative of another ) to thinke that sometimes they themselves have attained it , and so ending in the midst of their journey , may sit downe and take up their rest : whereas those who conceive the impossibility of perfection are kept in constant doing , having still plus ultra . with saint paul , forgetting those things that are behind , they reach forth to those things which are before , and presse towards the marke . fourthly , if it be objected that the impossibility of perfection discourageth men to endeavour it , seeing they cannot rationally desire it , non est voluntas impossibilium , it is no levell wish aimed at a marke , but a velleity shot at randome , which desires an impossibility . it is answered , that gods servants endeavouring a perfect reformation , doe not light on a labour in vaine , that which is wanting in them being supplyed in gods acceptance : if they doe their best , their desire is taken for the deed : the deformities of their imperfect reformation being pardoned by god in christ , in which respect , their labours are not in vaine in the lord . lastly , seeing this point of the impossibility of a churches perfection is most true ( as hereafter we shall make so appeare ) if hereupon any grow remisse and large in reforming , it is not the fault of gods straight doctrine , but of mens crooked practice : for if men inferre hellish conclusions from heavenly premises , such bad consequences are not the lawfull children of gods truth , but the bastards of mans corruption , where they are justly to be fathered for their maintenance . and now i suppose that your exception in those your words will scarce labour , is abundantly answered . o. nor will we care for any new light , whilst the old is in best reputation with him . ) this is grounded on what i never said , but if by the old light be meant that which shined from the ancient of dayes into the scriptures and thence through the fathers to us , i preferre it before any new light whatsoever . p. a good policy to stay the reformation till his majesties returne . ) it need not have stayed till his majesties returne , which might have been done before his going away ; who so often and so earnestly offered to reforme whatsoever could justly be convinced to be amisse in our church ; which proffers had they been as thankfully accepted , as they were graciously tendered , long since it had been done what we now dispute of , though it matters not for the spilling of our inke , if other mens blood had beene spared . and i doubt not when opportunity is offered his majesty will make good his word , whom no vollyes of discurtesies though discharged never so thicke against him , shall drive him from his princely promise , whilst he lookes not downewards on mens behaviour to him , but upwards to his protestations to god , learning from him whom he represents to be unchangeable . but if ( which god foresend , and yet all earthly things are casuall ) it should come to passe , that in point of reformation , what formerly was proffered by the sovereigne , and refused by the subject , should hereafter be requested by the subject , and denied by the sovereigne ; we shall have leisure enough to admire gods justice , bemoane our owne condition , and instruct our posterity not to outstand good offers , least for want of seeing their happinesse they feele their owne misery . but to returne to your mentioning of his majesties return ; when all is done for ought i can see , reformation must stay till his majesties returne . as for the time and manner thereof when and how it shall be done . god in his wisdome and goodnesse so order it , that it may be most for his glory , the kings honour , the good of the church and state . but this i say againe , that till this his returning , the generall enjoyning and peaceable practising of any reformation cannot be performed . q. and then there is hope it may coole in their hands . ) if by their hands you meane his majesties ( and what else can your words import ) it is as disloyall a suspition , as his would be an unfitting expression that should say , that reformation would boyle over in the hands of the parliament . but sir , thus farre you have excepted against my sermon in generall , now you are pleased to confute some particulars thereof . sermon paragraffe 10. withall we falsly deny that queene elizabeth left the dust behind the doore , which she cast on the dunghill , whence this uncivill expression is raked up . the doctrine by her established , and by her successors maintained in the 39. articles if declared , explained and asserted from false glosses , hath all gold , no dust or drosse in them . examiner . i will not detract from the religious huswifry of such a queene of famous memory , but we know her reformation is talk'd of now in a politicke r reverence , and we are commended backe into her times onely to hinder us from going forward in our owne ; for i am sure till this engine was contrived , shee was not such a saint in the prelates s calender . treatise . r. if there be any so base that they now make queene elizabeths reformation their protection , which formerly they disdained ( running in raine to that bush for shelter , which they meane to burne in faire weather ) shame light on them for their hypocrisie . let such be stript naked to their utter disgrace , who onely weare the memory of that worthy queene to cloke and cover them in their necessity , whose reformation was signed with successe from heaven ; our nation in her time being as famous for forreigne atchievements as now it is infamous for home-bred dissentions . yet god forbid our eyes should be so dazled with the lustre of her days as not to goe forward to amend the faults thereof , if any such be justly complained of . s. shee was not such a saint in the prelates calender . ) i never saw the prelates calender , but in the late reformed almanacks , i find neither her nor any other for saints . examiner . for the doctrine established from queen elizabeths times , though it be not the businesse so much of our reformation as the 39. articles where it dwels ; yet this we know , either the light of the doctrine was very dimme , or the eyes of our bishops t and jesuits , for one of them would needs spy arminianisme , and the jesuit popery . and some will make it a probleme ; yet whether their glosse may accuse the articles , or the article their glosse , such cassanders ●ound so much latitude in our doctrine as to attempt a v reconciliation of their articles and ours together . treatis . t. i expect ( and ever may expect ) that you would have produced some drosse in our articles , instancing in some false place or point contained in them , and then i must either have yeelded to you with disgrace , or opposed you with disadvantage . but instead of this , you only tell us how some have seene arminianisme and popery in them . i answer : so the papists doe read every point of popery where you will say it was never written in the scripture . those who bring the jaundies in their eyes doe find yellownesse in every object they behold ; and nothing can be so cautiously pen'd , but ingaged persons will construe it to favour their opinions . v. as to attempt a reconciliation of their articles and ours together . ) thus many egyptian ks. attempted to let the red sea into the mediterranian . a project at first seeming easie to such as measured their neernesse by the eye and at last found impossible by those who surveyed their distance by their judgement ; seeing art & industry can never marry those things whose bands nature doth forbid . and i am confident that with the same succes , any shal undertak the accommodating of english and romish articles . nor can the wisest church in such a case provide against the boldnesse of mens attempting , though they may prevent their endeavours from taking effect . for my owne opinion , as on the one side , i should be loath that the bels should be taken downe out of the steeple and new-cast every time that unwise people tune them to their thinke : so on the other side , i would not have any just advantage given in our articles to our adversaries . however , what you say confutes not , but confirmes my words in my sermon , that the 39. articles need declaring , explaining and asserting from false glosses . and seeing it is the peculiar priviledge of gods word to be perfect at once and for ever , on gods blessing let the darke words in our articles be expounded by cleerer , doubtfull expressed in plainer , improper exchanged for fitter , what is superfluous be removed wanting supplyed , too large contracted , too short enlarged alwayes provided that this be done by those who have calling , knowledge and discretion to doe it . sermon paragraffe 11. againe , we freely confesse that there may be some faults in our church in matters of practise and ceremonies , and no wonder if there be it would be a miracle if there were not . besides ▪ there be some innovations rather in the church then of the church , as not chargeable on the publike account , but on private mens scores , who are old enough , let them answer for themselves . examiner . these are but subtill w apologies and distinctions , for the x superstitions in the church , and to take off the eyes of the reformers , and entertaine them into changeable discourses , as if they were faults and no faults , and those that were , were irreformable , and could not be made better . and thus while the errours of our church should call them to reforme , your difficulties y and impossibilities would call them off . you say it were a miracle to have none : this is such sophistry as the malignity of your clergy would cast in the way of our reformation . and for the a innovations they have beene made by your most learned the immediate issues of our church , our rubrick and practise have beene called to witnesse it ; therefore goe not on to perswade such a b fundamentall integrity and essentiall purity . you know in what a case that c church was when she thought her selfe rich , and full , and glorious . he is no lesse an enemy to the patient then to the physitian that would perswade him that all is well or at the lest incurable . treatise . w. these are but subtill apologies . ) truly no such matter ; they are even plaine and downeright confessions from the simplicity of my heart . x. for the superstitions in the church . ) sir , lay not your enditement higher then you are sure your proof will reach . you might have done well to have insisted on some particulars , whilst now your generals accuse much , convict nothing . y. your difficulties and impossibilities would call them off . ) not so ; for to shew wise reformers the true difficulties of their worke will quicken not quench their endeavours . thus the carpenter being truly told that the wood is hard , he is to hew , will therefore not throw away his axe , but strike with the greater force . and that the doctrine of the impossibility of a churches perfect reformation on with well understood , is no hinderer to mens labours to reforme , hath been largely proved before . z. you say it were a miracle for a church to have no fa●lt● ▪ this is such sophistry as the malignity of your clergy would cast in the way of our reformation . ) this sophistry will at last prove good logick , and whatsoever you pretend of malignity , this is a truth to be confided in : namely , that no church in this world can be so compleat , but it will have faults . for the church being a body consisting of imperfect men the members thereof , the body must needs be imperfect also . this appeares by the constant necessity of preaching , which otherwise might well be spared , and all our sermons turned into psalmes , as also by the power of the keyes , which will never rust in the church for want of imployment . yea that petition in the prayer of christs p●oviding for us ( and forgive us our trespasses , as we forgive them that trespasse against us ) were both needlesse and false if men might be perfect in this world . this perchance is the reason why the perfection-mongers of this age quarrell with this prayer , as having too much pride to confesse their owne faults , and too little charity to forgive other mens , so ill doth a publicans prayer fit a pharisees mouth . a. as for innovations they have beene made by your most learned . ) concerning innovations i must inlarge my selfe . in mixt actions wherein good and bad are blended together , we can neither chuse nor refuse all , but may pick out some , and must leave the rest . first , they may better be tearmed renovations then innovations , as lately not new forged , but new furbished . secondly , they were not so many as some complaine . the suspitious old man cryes out in the comedy , that 600. ●ooks were set into his house , when they were but two . jealousie hath her hyperboles as well as her flattery . thirdly , some of these innovations may easier be rayled on then justly reproved ; namely , such as concerned the adorning of churches , and the comlinesse of mens behaviour in gods service , where outward decency ( if not garish , costly above the estates of the parish , mimicall affected or superstitious ) is the harbinger to provide the lodging for inward holinesse . for some bodily distance brings our souls the neerer to god , with whom some have such clownish familiarity , they have the lesse friendship . fourthly , if these gave offence , it was not for any thing in themselves but either because ; first , they were challenged to be brought in without law . this often makes good matters to be ill relished , honest men if wise withall , being loath to pay their obedience , before it becomes legally due . secondly , because they seemed new and unusuall , and we know how in dangerous times every well-meaning stranger may be suspected for a spy till he hath given an account of himselfe . now few daughter-churches had seen such ceremonies , though some of their mother-cathedrals could well remember them . thirdly , because they were multiplied without any set number ; and those ceremonies which men saw were indefinit , they feared would be infinit . fourthly , because they were pressed in some places without moderation . and herein some young men ( i will not say ran without sending , but ) ran further then they were sent , outstripping them who first taught them to goe . fifthly , because they were pressed by men , some of whose persons were otherwise much distasted ; how justly ? let them seek who are concerned . lastly , because men complained that painfull preaching and pious living , the life of gods service were not pressed and practised with equall earnestnesse , as outward decency the lustre thereof ; whence their feares inferred , that the shaddowes would devoure the substance . now whereas you say that these innovations have been made by our most learned , herein i must confesse that the scales of my skill are too little in them to weigh the learning of great schollers , and to conclude who have the most . but this i know , that alwayes a distinction hath been made and admitted betwixt the opinions and practise of the most eminent particular doctors ( how great soever in place power or parts ) and the resolutions and commands of the church in generall . in which respect , what hitherto you alleadge to the contrary , doth no whit disprove my words , that such innovations are rather in the church then of the church , by which they were never abso●utely enjoyned nor generally received , as alwayes disclaimed by many , and lately disesed by most . such indeed as used them out of conscience ( i should have no conscience to think otherwise of some ) are not to be blamed if they privately practise them still , at their own perill , till their judgements are otherwise informed . such as took them up for fashion sake , for fashion sake have since laid them downe . such as were frighted into them desist , now their feare is removed . lastly , those who used them in hope of preferment , now disuse them in despaire thereof , not to say some of them are as violent on the contrary side , and perchanee onely wait the word of command from the prevalent party to turne faces about againe . in briefe , seeing generally these ceremonies are left off , it seems neither manners nor charity , alwayes to lay that in mens dishes , which the voider some pretty while since hath cleane taken away . say not that these innovations are now rather in a swound then dead & likly to revive , when cherished with the warmth of authority seeing his majesty hath often and fully proffered , that whatsoever is justly offensive in them shall be removed , and pitty it is but that the rest should by the same lawfull power be re-enforced . but enough hereof , and more perchance then will please the reader , though lesse could not have satisfied the writer ; if i have contented any , well ; if i have displeased all , i am contented . b. therefore goe not on to perswade such a fundamentall integrity and essentiall purity . ) indeed the pains may well be spared , for all wise men are sufficiently perswaded thereof already . for if hereby you meane ( and i would faine learne what other sence your words are capable of ) that the church of england hath not as yet been entire in the fundamentals , and pure in the essentials to salvation . we all are in a wofull condition . have we lived thus long in our church , now to dye eternally therein ? seeing none can be saved therein if it be unsound in the fundamentals of religion ; must the thousand six hundred forty third yeer from christ's birth , be the first yeer of the nativity of the church of england , from which she may date her essentiall purity ? sir , i could at the same time childe you with anger , bemoane you with pitty , blush for you with shame , were it not that i conceive this passage fell unawares from your pen , and that you intend to gather it up againe . c. you know in what a case that church was , when shee thought her selfe rich , and full , and glorious . ) good sir , accept of my service to stay you , or else run on till you be stopt by your owne wearinesse . our church never brag'd thus her selfe , nor any other for her ; whose faults we have already freely confessed , yet maintained her to be sound in all fundamentals , and pure in all essentials . sermon paragraffe 12. a thorow reformation we and all good men desire with as strong affections , though perhaps not with so loud a noyse as any whatsoever . examiner . if your thorow reformation in this page be compared with your fourteen , fifteen , sixteen , seventeen pages , where you have bound it up with so many d restrictions , the fallacy will soon appeare . you would smoothly tax some brethren for clamour e and noyse in their desires after reformation . indeed if you could perswade the prophets of god into silence , or slight endeavours , halfe your designe were finished ; but they have a fire which flames into stronger expressions : if the zeale of the prophets and f martyrs had given no further testimony to the truth , then their own bosomes , we had not had at this day such a cloud of witnesses ; you know these loud importunities awaken and hasten men unto that holy g businesse you would so faine retard . if you think it your vertue that you can be silent in the midst of our importunities and loud cryes after reformation , i am sure 't is your policy too , for should you make too great a noyse after it , you might be heard h to oxford , and perhaps you are loath to speake out till you see further . treatis . d. fourteen , fifteen , sixteen , seventeen pages , where you have bound it up with so many restrictions . ) indeed i bound reformation with restrictions , but such as are girdles to strengthen it , not fetters to burthen it , and thereupon no fallacy , but plaine dealing will appeare . and if those pages you instanee in be guilty of any such fault , no doubt when your examination doth come to them , you will presse it home , and i shall be ready to make my best defence . e. you would smoothly tax some brethren for clamour . ) if any be faulty herein they deserve not onely to be smoothly taxed . but sharply reproved . for clamour ( as the english word is taken in scripture ) sounds in a bad sense , as arguing an ill tempered spirit with a mixture of pride and impatience . and as reformation ought to be prosecuted and sought after with holy and zealous importunity ( farre from all lethargicall dulnesse and carnall stupidity ) so it must be done with a quiet and compose soule , a grace commended by the apostle . now grant none to be guilty , yet seeing all are subject ( especially in tumultuous times ) to clamour and passionate extravagancies , my gentle advertisement by the bye could not be amisse . f if the zeale of the prophets and martyrs had given . ) i thanke you sir for mentioning the martyrs ; they were the champions of passive obedience , and the lively patternes of that holy temper i now described ; men of a meeke and quiet disposition , not clamorous , though since their death , the noyse and fame of their patience hath sounded aloud thorow the whole world to all posterity . and i pray god in continuance of time the very doctrine of martyrdome be not martyred . g that holy businesse you would so faine retard . ) i appeale from your hard censure to the searcher of hearts , who one day will acquit my innocence and punish your uncharitablenesse , except it be first pardoned upon your repentance . h for should you make so great a noyse , you might be heard to oxford . ) i care not how farre i be heard , nor which way , to oxford and beyond it , to geneva , or to rome it selfe : truth is calculated for all meridians . but speake not slightingly of oxford , it is ill wounding of a court , and a camp , and an university , and all in one word . i and perhaps you are loath to speak out till you see farther . ) i see too farre already ; namely , that ruine and desolation is likely to follow , except moderation be used on both sides : if you meane , till i see farther into his majesties pleasure of reforming , what shall be found amisse , his unfained desire thereof doth already plainly appeare ? but if you meane till i see farther into his successe , know sir , my religion observes not the tides of his majesties fortune , to ebbe and flow therewith . where conscience is the fountaine , the stream keeps the same height . sermon paragraffe 12. but with this qualification , that by thorow reformation , we meane such a one whereof we are capable , pro statu viatorum , made with all due and christian moderation . examiner . you write of the reformation of a church like k bod●● , not like bucer , you make it a worke of policy l not of piety of reason , not divinity . such counsellers had m jeroboam and jehu , and they made a church as unhappy as a kingdome miserable . this moderation and qualification you speak of is not so consistent with spirituall essenses and n operations : if the spirit of god should not work in the soules of o unregenerate , but expect an answerable compliancy first , who should be sanctified ? if god had expected any such congruity in our businesse of salvation , we had been unredeemed . to speak p closer , what qualification did queen q elizabeth expect when shee received a kingdome warm from popery ? what qualification did r henry the eight expect in his attempt against the supremacy , when all his kingdome was so universally conjured to rome ? such moderation and qualification is no other but a discreet taking so much as will serve your turne . to the law ( saith the scripture ) s and to the test mony ; moses wrought according to the patterne , so salomon too ; godly bucer makes it his worke to perswade king edward to build up a perfect church and he v prophesies sadly , that he was afraid popery would succeed , because the kingdome of england was so averse to the kingdome of christ . and we know the marian dayes followed , me-thinkes we are too like his proprophesie , and our w marian times approach too fast . treatis . k you write of a reformation of a church like bodin . ) would i wrote like bodin , though on the condition that i never wrote answer to your examinations . would we had some bodins , some such able states-men , that they might improve their parts to advance an happy accommodation betwixt our sovereigne and his subjects . l you make it a worke of policy not of piety . ) i make it as indeed it is , a work both of moses and aaron , wherein piety is to be prefer'd , and policy is not to be excluded . m such counsellours had jeroboam and jehu . ) sir , shoot your arrowes at me till your quiver be empty , but glance not with the least slenting insinuation at his majesty , by consequence to compare him to jeroboam or jehu , for their idolatry ; he knoweth how to bestow his gold farre better , and to leave the calves for others . n this moderation and qualification you speake of , is not so consistent with spirituall essenses and operations . ) this your line is not so consistent with sense , as to need much lesse deserve a confutation . o if the spirit of god should not have wrought in the souls of unregenerate . ) i wonder that allotting ( as you say ) but one afternoon for the whole work of your examination you could spend so much time ( some minutes at least ) in such impertinencies . p to speake closer . ) and truly no more then needs , for as yet you are farre enough from the matter : but i will not confute what you confesse . q what qualification did queen elizabeth expect . ) she needed not to expect any , when she had all requisites to reforme . those who have such qualification are not to expect , but to fall a working ; those that want it are not to fall a working , but still to expect . queen elizabeth as supream in her dominions had a sufficient calling to reforme , nothing was wanting in her : onely her memory doth still deservedly expect a more thankfull acknowledgement of her worthy paines then generally she hath received hitherto . r what qualification did henry the eight expect in his attempt against supremacy ? ) he likewise had qualification sufficient ( and therefore needed not to expect any ) as your following words doe witnesse , wherein you say that all his kingdome was universally conjured to rome . if it was his kingdome , then he had a calling ; if it was conjured to rome , then he had a cause to reforme : and being the king was bound to be the exorcist to un-conjure his subjects from such superstition : yea , had king henry reformed as sincerely as he had a lawfull calling thereunto , his memory had not been constantly kept in such a purgatory of mens tongues for his lukewarme temper , even the most moderate counting him too good for to be condemned , and too bad to be commended . s to the law ( saith the scripture ) and to the testimony . ) i will treasure up this excellent passage till a convenient time , being confident that before the next paragraffe is examined , i shall appeale to these judges , and you decline them . t godly bucer makes it his worke to perswade king edward to build up a perfect church . ) the book of godly bucer which you cite i have seene ▪ on the selfe same token , that therein he makes a bishops to be above presbyters jure divino . you know bucer wrote this worke ( as leading the front of his opera anglicana ) in the very beginning of king edwards reigne , before the reformation was generally received in england , and whilst as yet popery was practised in many places . and next to this his book followeth his gratulation to the english church for their entertaining of the purity of the gospell ; so that what he doth perswade in the book you alleadge , was in some good measure performed in that ks. reign , and afterwards better compleated by queen elizabeth . v and he prophesieth sadly that he was afraid popery would succeed . ) herein he took shrewd aime and it happened he hit right . such predictions are onely observed when afterwards they chance to take effect : otherwise , if missing the marke , men misse to marke them and no notice at all is taken of them : i know a latter divine ( not the lowest in learning ▪ one of the highest in b zeale amongst them ) who foretelleth that atheisme rather then popery is likely to overrunne england . such presages may serve to admonish not to afright us , as not proceeding from a propheticall spirit , but resulting from prudentiall observations . but before we take our farewell of this book of bucers , it will not be amisse to remember another passage ( not to say presage ) in the same worthy worke ; that we may see what sinnes in his opinion were forerunners of ruine in a kingdome . the margin presents the reader with the c latin which i here translate , though the former part thereof be englished already in mens practise , and the latter i feare will be englished in gods judgements . how horrible an affront doe they doe to the divine majesty who use the temples of the lord for galleries to walk● in , and for places so prophane , that in them with their fellowes that prattle and treat of any uncleane and prophane businesse . this sure is so great a contempt of god , that long since even for this alone we have deserved altogether to be banished from the face of the earth , and to be punished with heaviest judgements . such i am afraid will fall on our nation for their abominable abusing of churches ( besides other of their sinnes ) and prophaning the places of gods worship . not to speake of those ( and yet what man can hold his tongue when the mouthes of graves are forced open ) who in a place to vvhich their guilty conscience can point vvithout my pens direction did by breaking up the sepulchers of our saxon christian kings ▪ erect an everlasting monument to their ovvn sacriledge . such practises must needs provoke gods anger , and now me-thinks i write of the reformation of a church like bucer and not like bodin . w me-thinks we are too like his prophesie , and our marian times approach too fast . ) i hope otherwise ; trusting on a good god and a gracious king . but if those times doe come , woe be to such as have been the cause or occasion to bring or hasten them . one day it will be determined whether the peevish , perverse and undiscreet spirit of sectaries , bringing a generall dis-repute on the protestant , hath not concurred to the inviting in of superstition and popery , may come riding in on the back of anabaptisme . if those times doe come , i hope that god who in justice layeth on the burthen , will in mercy strengthen our shoulders , and what our prayers cannot prevent , our patience must undergoe . nor is it impossible with god so to enable those whom you tax to have onely a forme of godlinesse , to have such power thereof as to seale the protestant religion with their blood . sermon paragraffe 13. 14. such who are to be the true and proper reformers , they must have a lawfull calling thereunto ; duties which god hath impaled for some particular persons , amongst these actions reformation of a church is chiefe . now the supreame power alone hath a lawfull calling to reforme a church , as it plainely appeares by the kings of judah in their kingdome . examiner . i had not knowne your meaning by the lawfull calling you name , but that you expound it in the lines that follow , to be the calling of the supreame magistrate ; as if no calling were warrantable at first to x promove a reformation but that . but you must take notice there is an inward and an outward call . the inward call is a y speciall excitation from the spirit of god , and such a call is warrantable by god to be active ; i am sure it hath beene sufficient alwayes to set holy men on worke : another call is outward , and that is either of place and magistracy , or publike relation . now though magistracy be of publike relation , yet when i speake specifically of publike relation . i meane that in which every man stands bound in to god and his country ; now all these callings are commissions enough either to meddle as christianly inspired , or christianly ingaged . in ordinary transactions , i know the ordinary dispensation is to be resorted to ; but the businesse of reformation as it is extraordinary , so god giveth extraordinary conjunctures of times and circumstances , and extraordinary concurrences , and extraordinary incitations . in the building of the temple you shall see in ezra and nehemiah such workings of god , when the people were gathered together as one man , they spake to ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of moses . here the people put on even ezra to his duty . treatis . before i deale with the particulars of this examination , i will enlarge ( not alter ) what i said in my sermon of this point , promising as much brevity as god shall enable me to temper with clearnesse , and desiring the readers patience whilst at mine owne perill i deliver my opinion . but first , here we promise necessary distinction . distinguish we betwixt those times , when the church liveth under pagan or persecuting princes , and when god blesseth her with a christian king , defender of the faith : in the former case the church may and must make an hard shift to reforme her selfe so well as she can ( for many things will be wanting , and more will be but meanly supplyed ) without any relating to a supreame power , whose leave therein will be dangerous to desire and impossible to obtaine . but withall , they must provide themselves to suffer , offering no violence , except it be to drowne a tyrant in their teares , or to burne him with coales of kindnesse heaped on his head . in the latter case , when the supreame power is a nursing father to the church , suckling it , not sucking blood from it , the church must have recourse to it before shee may reforme . reforming of a church must neither stay behind for nero his leave , nor runne before without the consent of constantine . religion it selfe must not be deckt with those flowers which are violently pluck'd from the crownes of lawfull princes . come we now then to shew , how in a christian state , all are to contribute their joynt endeavours to promote a reformation . in a church , and such a state i consider three degrees thereof . first , meere private men without any mixture of a publike relation . secondly , persons placed in a middle posture with the centurian in publike imployment over some , yet under authority themselves . thirdly , the absolute supreame power , who depends of god alone . for the first of these , meere private men ; they have nothing to doe in publike reforming but to advance it by their hearty prayers to god , and to facilitate the generall reformation , by labouring to amend their owne and their families lives according to the word ; this is all god requireth of them and more i feare then most of them will performe . next , succeed those persons in a middle posture , and these are either ministers or magistrates . ministers even the meanest of them have thus far their part in publike reforming , that they are to lift up their voice like a trumpet ( though not like sheba his trumpet to sound sedition ) both to reprove vitiousnesse in manners , and to confute errors in doctrine . and if men of power and imminent place in the church , then as their ingagement is greater , so their endeavours must be stronger , to presse and perswade a publike reformation to such whom it doth concerne . magistrates may have more to doe in publike reforming having a calling from god , who therefore hath set them in a middle place betwixt prince and people , to doe good offices under the one , over the other , betwixt both . and having a calling from the king , especially if they be his counsellours , whose good they are to advance by all lawfull meanes , and rather to displease him with their speech , then to dishonour him with their silence ; and having a calling from their country , whose safety they must be tender and carefull of . first , therefore they are with all industry ( both from the ministers mouth and by their owne inquiry ) to take true notice of such defects and deformities in the church or state as are really to be reformed . secondly , they are with all sincerity to represent the same to the supreame power . thirdly , with all humility to request the amendment of such enromities . fourthly , with all gravity to improve their request with arguments from gods glory , the princes honour , the peoples profit , and the like . lastly , with their best judgement to propound and commend the fairest way whereby a reformation may as speedily as safely be effected . and if they meet with difficulties in the supreame power delaying their request , they are not to be disheartned , but after their servent prayers to god , who alone hath the hearts of kings in his hands , they are constantly to re●ue their request at times more seasonable , in places more proper , with expressions more patheticall , having their words as full of earnestnesse , as their deeds farre from violence . as last comes the supreame power , who alone is to reforme by its own authority , though not by its owne advise alone . for because it is rationally to be presumed ▪ that divines have best skill in matters of divinity , they are to be consulted with ; and here comes in the necessity and use of councels , convocations , synods and assemblyes . and because there is not onely a constant correspondency but also an unseperable complication betwixt the church & state ; states-men are therefore to be advised with in a reformation , so to settle it as may best comply with the common-wealth . for god in that generall warrant , let all things be done decently and in order ; p●ts as i may say the cloath and sheeres into the hands of the church and christian princes , to cut out and fashion each particular decency and order , so as may shape and suit best with the present time and place wherein such a reformation is to be made . these parts therefore are to be acted in a reformation by the supreame power . first , he is ( either by his owne motion , or at the instance and intreaties of others ) to call and congregate such assemblyes . secondly , to give them leave and liberty to consult and debate of matters needing to be reformed . thirdly , to accept the results of their consultations , and to weigh them in the ballance of his princely discretion . fourthly , to confirme so much with his royall assent as his judgement shall resolve to be necessary or convenient . lastly , to stamp the character of authority upon it , that recusants to obey it may be subject to civill punishments . but now all the question will be what is to be done if the endeavours of subjects be finally returned with deafnesse or deniall in the supreame power . in this case a pulike reformation neither ought nor can be performed without the consent of the supreame power : it ought not , first , because god will not have a church reformed by the deforming of his commandement . he hath said honour thy father and thy mother and requireth that all superiours should be respected in their places . secondly , the scripture rich in presidents for our instruction in all cases of importance affords us not one single example , wherein people attempted publiquely to reforme , without or against the consent of the supreame power ; and in this particular , i conceive a negative argument followeth undeniably : wherefore seeing the kings in judah ( there the supreame power ) were alwayes called upon to reforme , commended for doing so much , or condemned for doing no more ; and the people neither commanded to remove , nor reproved for not removing publique idolatry , without the consent of the supreame power ; it plainly appeareth , that a publique reformation belongeth to the supreame power , so that without it , it ought not to be done . as it ought not , so it cannot be done without the consent thereof ; for admit that the highest subordinate power should long debate , and at last conclude , the most wholsome rules for reformation ; yet as plato said , that amongst the many good lawes that were made one still was wanting , namely , a law to command and oblige men to the due observing of those lawes which were made . so when the best resolutions are determined on by any inferiour power , there still remaines an absolute necessity that the supreame power should bind and enforce to the observing thereof . for instance : some offenders are possessed with such uncleane spirits of prophanenesse , that none can bind them , no not with chaines of ecclesiasticall censures , onely outward mulcts in purse or person can hold and hamper them . scythian slaves must be ordered with whips , and a present prison more affrights impudent persons , then hel-fire to come . in the writs de excommunicato capiendo , & de haeritico comburendo , such as flout at the excommunicato and the haeretico , are notwithstanding heartily afraid of the capiendo and the comburendo . wherefore in such cases the church when it is most perfectly reformed is fame to crave the aid of the state by civill and secular penalties , to reduce such as are rebels to church-censures ( sometimes inflicting death it selfe on blasphemous heretickes ) and this cannot be performed by any subordinate power , in the state , but onely by the supreame power . otherwise , offenders , if pressed by any inferiour power would have a free appeale and no doubt find full redresse from the supreame power , without whose consent such penalties were imposed on them . now if it be demanded , what at last remaines for any to doe , in case the supreame power finally refuseth to reforme : thus they are to imploy themselves . first , to comfort themselves in this , that they have used the meanes , though it was gods pleasure to with-hold the blessing . secondly-they are to reflect on themselves , and seriously to bemoane their own sinnes which have caused gods justice to punish them in this kind . if a●rhumaticke head sends downe a constant flux , to the corroding of the lungs , an ill affected stomacke first sent up the vapours which caused this distillation : and pious subjects conceive that if god suffer princes to persist in dangerous errours , this distemper of the head came originally from the stomack , from the sinnes of the people , who deserved this affliction . thirdly , they are to reforme their selves and families , and if the supreame power be offended thereat , to prepare themselves patiently to suffer , whatsoever it shall impose upon them , having the same cause though not the same comfort , to obey a bad prince as a good one . by the way , a word in commendation of passive obedience : when men who cannot be active without sinning , are passive without murmuring . first , christ set the principall copie thereof , leading captivity captive on the ●rosse , and ever since he hath sanctified suffering with a secret soveraigne vertue even to conquer and subdue persecution . secondly , it hath beene continued from the primitive church by the albigences to the moderate protestants unlesse some of late ashamed of this their masters badge , have pluckt their cognisance from their coats , and set up for themselves . thirdly , it is a doctrine spirituall in it selfe . it must needs be good , it is so contrary to our bad natures and corrupt inclinations , who will affirme any thing rather then we will deny our selves , and our owne revengefull dispositions . and surely the martyrs were no lesse commendable for their willing submitting to , then for their constant enduring of their persecutors cruelty . and it was as much ( if not more ) for them to conquer their owne ●indicative spirits , as to undergoe the heaviest tortures inflicted on them . fourthly , it is a doctrine comfortable to the practisers , bitter , but wholsome . yet it is sweetned with the inward consolation of a cleere conscience , which is food in famine , freedome in fetters , health in sicknesse , yea , life in death . fifthly , it is glorious in the eyes of the beholders , who must needs like and love that religion , whose professors ( where they cannot lawfully dearly sell ) doe frankly give their lives in the defence thereof . lastly , it is a doctrine fortunate in successe . by preaching of passive obedience , the d●ve hath out-flowne the eagle . christ's kingdome hath out-streatched ca●sars monarchy . hereby the wisdome of the east was subdued to the folly of preaching . the sunne of the gospell arose in the westerne parts . the parched south was watered with the dew of the word . the fro●en north was thawed with the heat of religion : but since the doctrine of resisting the supreame power came into fashion , the protestant religion hath runne up to a high top , but spread nothing in breadth ; few papists have beene reclaimed , and no pagans have beene converted . alas ! that so good a doctrine should be now in so great disgrace ; yet will we praise such suffering , though we suffer for praising it . if we cannot keepe this doctrine alive , we will grieve because it is dying ; being confident , that though now it be buried in so deepe dishonour , god in due time will give it a glorious resurrection . and though i must confesse , it is farre easier to praise passive obedience then to practice it , yet to commend a vertue is one degree to the imitation of it , and to convince our judgements : first , of the goodnesse of the deede , is by gods blessing one way to worke our wils to embrace it : in a word , if this doctrine of passive obedience be cryed downe , hereafter we may have many bookes of acts and monuments , but never more any bookes of martyrs . and now these things premised , we returne to master saltmarsh his examination of my sermon . x as if no calling were warrantable at first to promote a reformation but the supreame power . ) i never said or thought so : but in what manner , and by what meanes inferiours may and must labour to promote it , i have at large declared . y the inward call is a speciall excitation from the spirit of god , and such a call is warrantable to be active . ) i shall have presently a more proper place to deale with these speciall excitations , when i come to answer your extraordinary incitations . z now all these callings are commission enough to meddle . ) i am not of so froward a spirit , as to quarrell at a word . otherwise i could tell you , that to meddle generally importeth an over-businesse in some pragmaticall person , tampering with that which is either unlawfull in it selfe , or hurtfull to , at least improper for the party who medleth with it , and in scripture it is commonly used with a prohibition , meddle not . to passe this by , the question is not whether magistrates may meddle ( as you say ) in advancing a publique reformation ; but how ? and how farre they may be active therein ? therein i report the reader to what i have largely expressed . a in ordinary transactions , i know the ordinary dispensation is to be resorted to , but the businesse of reformation as it is extraordinary , so god giveth extraordinary conjunctures of times and circumstances , and extraordinary concurrences , and extraordinary incitations . ) now you soare high , give us leave to follow you as we can . first , i confesse that a publique reformation is an extraordinary worke in this sense , as not common or usually done every day ( as private amendment of particular persons is or ought to be . ) but it is a rare worke , which commeth to passe but seldome , and the doing of it is out of the road of ordinary mens imployment . but i deny a publique reformation to be extraordinary in this acception ; as if it were to be ordered or managed by any other rules or presidents , then such as are ordinary and usuall in the bible , where many patterns of publique reformations are presented ; in which respect the ordinary dispensation is to be resorted to in the performance thereof . whereas you say , that in publique reformations , god giveth extraordinary conjunctures of times and circumstance , and extraordinary concurrences . it is true in this sense , that the great clock-keeper of time so orders the coincidence of all things , that when his houre is come , wherein such a reformation shall be made , every officious circumstance will joyfully contribute his utmost assistance to the advancing thereof . whetefore if men cannot make a reformation without roving from their calling , or breaking gods commandement ( according to which it cannot be done without the consent of the supreame power . ) hereby it plainly appeares , that the hand of divine providence doth not as yet point at that happy minute of reformation , there being as yet times distracted with jarres and disjunctures , not onely in circumstances , but even in substantiall matters requisite thereunto . and therefore seeing gods good time may not be prevented , but must be expected , men are still patiently to wait and pray for that conjnncture of times and concurrency of circumstances , whereof you speake . but whereas you speake of extraordinary incitations ( paralell to what you said before , of speciall excitations and christianly inspired . ) in these your expressions you open a dangerous pit , and neither cover it againe nor raile it about with any cautions , so that passengers may unawares fall into it . for everyman who hath done an unwarrantable act , which he can neither justifie by the law of god or man , will pretend presently that he had an extraordinary incitation for it ; a fine tricke to plead gods leave to breake his law . nor can we disprove the impudence of such people , except we may use some touch-stones , thereby to try their counterfeit incitations ; my opinion herein shall be contrived into three propositions . first , no such extraordinary incitations are extant now a dayes from god , as stirre men up to doe any thing contrary to his commandements . indeed , some such we meet with in the scripture , where the law-giver dispensing with his owne law , incited abraham to kill his son , sampson to kill himselfe , and the isralites to rob the egyptians . in such cases it was no disobedience to gods publique command , but obedience to his private countermand ; if the servant varied his practice according to his absolute masters peculiar direction . but such incitations come not now a dayes but from the spirit of delusion . secondly , no extraordinary excitations are extant now a dayes from god , seizing on men ( as anciently ) in enthusiasmes , or any such raptives , as make sensible impressions on them . for these are within the virge of miracles , which are now ceased , and our age produceth things rather monstrous then miraculous . thirdly , extraordinary incitations are still bestowed by god in these dayes ; namely , such that he giveth to some of his servants ; a more then usuall and common proportion of his grace , whereby they are enabled for and incited to his service with greater rigour and activity then ordinary christians . my judgement herein shall nto be niggardly to restraine gods bountifull dealing , but i verily beleeve that he who was so exceedingly liberall in former ages , is not so close handed in our times , but that in this sence he bestoweth extraordinary motions , especially on such whom his providence doth call to eminent places , either in church or state . but such motions quicken them to runne the way of gods commandements , not to start without or beside it . and as hereby they are heightned to an heroicall degree of piety , so though sometimes we may say of them in a rhetoricall expression , that they goe beyond themselves , yet they never goe beyond their calling , nor never goe beyond gods commandements . now if any shall pretend that they have an extraordinary excitation to make a publique reformation without the consent of the supreame power , to whom by gods law it belongs , such an excitation cannot come from the holy ghost : for if the spirit of the prophets be subject to the prophets . much more is it subject to the god of the prophets , and to the law of that god . and truly sir , this passage of extraordinary incitations , as it is by you rawly laid downe and so left , containeth in it seed enough if well ( or rather ill ) husbanded , to sow all the kingdome with sedition , especially in an age wherein the anabaptist in their actions , beaten out of the field by gods word , doe daily slye to this their fort of extraordinary excitations . and you may observe when god gave extraordinary excitations , quo ad regulam ( stirring up men to doe things contrary to the received rule of his commandements ) then such excitations were alwayes attended with extraordinary operations . phinehas , who killed cosby and zim●y , could stay the plague with his prayer ; and eliah who cursed the captaines with their fifties , could cause fire to come downe on them from heaven . it appeares this his curse was pronounced without malice , because inflicted by a miracle . it is lawfull for such to call for fire , who can make fire come at their call ; and would nore would kindle discord on earth , till first they fetcht the sparks thereof from heaven . neither doe we proudly tempt gods providence , but truly trye such mens pretended extraordinary incitations , if when they wander from gods commandements in their actions , and plead inspirations , we require of them to prove the truth of such inspirations , by working a miracle . now sir , you being ( as it seemes ) an opposite to prelacy , would make strange worke , to put downe one ordinary in a diocesse , and set up many extraordinaries in every parish : and for ought i know , if some pretend extraordinary excitations , publikely to reforme against the will of the supreame power , such as side with the supreame power , may with as much probability alleadge extraordinary excitations to oppose and crosse the others reformation , and so betwixt them both our church and state will be sufficiently miserable . and now sir remember what you said in the last paragraffe : to the law ( saith the scripture ) and to the testimony ; to such judges we may safely appeale from all your speciall excitations , extraordinary incitations and christian inspirations . b in the building of the temple you shall see in ezra and nehemiah such workings of god , when the people were gathered together as one man , they spake to ezra the scribe , to bring the booke of● the law of moses . ) the unanimous consent of so many we acknowledge to be gods worke . o that we might see the like agreement in england , where the people are so farre from being gathered together as one man , that almost every one man is distracted in his thoughts , like the times , and scattered from himselfe as if he were many people . well , they spake to ezra to bring the booke of he law ; what of all this ? c here the people put on even ezra to his duty . ) and little speaking would spurre on him who of himselfe was so ready to runne in his calling : but i pray what was this ezra ? who were these people ? ezra was indeed a priest , a learned scribe of the law who brought up a party out of babylon to jerusalem armed with a large patent and commission from artaxerxes . the people here were the whole body of the jewish church and state together with zerobabel the prince ▪ and jeshuah the high priest , who ( by leave from the persian king ) had the chiefe managing of spirituall and temporall matters . and judge how little this doth make for that purpose to which you alleadge it that from hence private persons may either make the supreame power to reforme , or doe it without his consent . had you free leave of the whole scripture to range in , and could the fruit of your paines find out no fitter instance for your purposes . examiner . and whereas you say , reformation is of those duties that are d impaled in for some particular persons . i answer , this were a grand designe if you could heighten e reformation into such a holy prodigy , as you would of late the church into the prelacy and f clergy , and excluded the layty as a prophane g crew , and to be taught their distance . luther h will tell you , this is one of the roman engines , to make such an holy businesse ; like the mountaine in the law , not to be touc●t or approacht to , but by moses alone . thus you might take off many good workemen , and honest l labourers in the vineyard whom christ hath hired and sent in , and to whom he hath held out his scepter , as ahasuerus to ester . treatis . d and whereas you say reformation is of those duties that are impaled in for some particular persons . ) it appeares that publike reformation is so impaled ; for whereas every man is commanded to observe the sabbath , honour his parents , and every man forbidden to have other gods , worship images take gods name in vaine kill , steale , &c. yet the supreame power alone in scripture is called on for publike reformation , and no private person , as saint austin hath very well observed . e i answer , this were a grand designe , if you could heighten reformation into such an holy prodigy . ) i need not heighten it , which is so high a worke of it selfe , that our longest armes cannot reach it , though we stand on the tip-toes of our best desires and endeavours , till god shall first be pleased to send us a peace . a prodigy it is not ( not long since you tearmed it an extraordinary businesse ) yet if it be performed whilst warre lasteth , it is a worke of the lord , and may justly seeme mervallous in our eyes . f as you would of late the church into the prelacy and the clergy . ) when and where did i doe this ? i ever accounted that the cetus fi●●l●um , the congregation of the faithfull was gods church on earth . yet i often find the church represented in generall counsels by the prelacy and clergy ( who are or should be the best & wisest in the church ) & their decisions in matters of religion interpreted and received as the resolutions of the church in generall . g and excluded the layty as a prophane crew , and to be taught their distance . ) what honest man ever thought the layty , as layty , prophane ? i conceive our kingdome would be very happy , if none of the clergy were worse then some of the layty . and i am sure that the godly clergy are gods layty his {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} & the godly layty are gods clergy , his {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} yet now a dayes , some usurping lay-men may well be taught their distance , who meddle with ministeria'l functions : nor will a wel-meaning heart one day excuse the unsanctified hands of such vzzah's , who presuming to preach , hold not our arke from shaking , but shake our arke with holding it . h luther w●ll tell you this is one of the romish engines . ) indeed this was a popish device too much to depresse the layty . but this engine thanks be to god ) is since broken asunder , and it will be in vaine for any to glew the peeces thereof together . and now since the monopoly of the popish clergy ( ingrossing all matters of religion to themselves ) is dissolved ; it is fit protestant ministers lawfull propriety in their calling , should justly be maintained . i thus you may take off many honest labourers in the vineyard . ) farre be it from me especially if they be skilfull labourers such as will prune the vines , not pluck them up by the roots . but this and what you say of those to whom god hath held out his scepter , is nothing to the purpose ; except you could prove where god in the scripture , hires or cals private men to make a publike reformation . examiner . and whereas you tell us that the supreame power alone hath the lawfull calling as appeares in the kings of judah . i answer that if so the parliament were now in a dangerous k praemunire for you know that is suspended from us , and yet our state goes on in their worke , enabled ( as they say ) by their fundamen●all power and constitution : i shall not here dispute the emanations of this power in ordinances , votes and orders ▪ they have made it appeare in their owne declarations ; onely this i read of an ordinance made by the nobles and elders of israel , those lords l and commons . that whosoever would not come according to the counsell which was taken for reformation , all his substance should be forfeited . here is no king of judah's hand , nor a ●●yrus king of persias ▪ but an ordinance of their owne to their owne people ; onely they have king cyru's writ for their assembling and consulting . had christ m and his apostles waited in their reformation for the consent of the roman magistrate the supreame power , they had not made that holy expedition they did . had luther and zun●glius n and oecolampadius staid for the emperours reformation , they had not shed halfe that light in the germane hemisphere : there was a time when god tooke part of the spirit of moses and put it upon o the elders . treatis . k if so the parliament were now in a dangerous praemunire . ) i will not marre a meane divine of him , to make a meaner states-man , by medling with matters in the common-wealth . i that maintaine that every man must stay in his calling , will not step out of mine owne : let the differences betwixt our soveraigne and his subjects which consist in points of state be debated by the politicians on either side , the questions in law be argued respectively by their learned counsell and the controversies in religion be dispuputed by their severall divines . but alas ! such is our misery when all is done , the finall decision is devolved to the souldiers sword on either side , and god send the best cause the best successe . l onely this , i read of an ordinance made by the nobles and elders of israel those lords and commons . ) by your favour it was a compleat act of state as confirmed by the royall assent . true , there was no king of judah's hand unto it , because at that time judah had no king ; and who can expect that the sunne should shine at midnight , when there is none in that horizon . reasonable men will then be contented with the moon-shine , and see that here . for zerobabel shining with borrowed beames and a reflected light from the persian king ( in which respect he is stiled , hag. 1. 14. the governour of judah ) concurred to this ordinance by his approbation thereof . besides this , there was also a triple consent of the persian kings . first , the grand and generall grant from cyrus , ezra 1. 3. which still stood in full force , as confirmed by darius . ezra 6. 12. whereby the jewes being authorized to re-build the temple , were also by the same enabled to settle gods service in the best manner , by what wholsome lawes they thought fitting . secondly , a particular implicite grant , in that the persian king knowing thereof , did not forbid it when it was in his power , had it beene his pleasure ; and such a not opposing , amounts to a consent . lastly , they had a large expresse command from king artaxerxes to ezra ( chap. 7. ver. 26. ) and whosoever will not doe the law of thy god , and the law of the king , let judgement be executed speedily upon him , whether it be unto death or unto banishment , or to confiscation of goods , or to imprisonment . and now sir , i have the lesse cause to be offended with you for citing mangled and dismembred peeces in my sermon , seeing the scripture it selfe finds as little favour from your hand ; for had you compared on place thereof with another you could not but have seen the persian kings consent to this reformation . yea so observant were the jewes of the persian kings , that at the first issuing forth of their prohibition to that purpose , they instantly desisted building the temple ; having their soules so well managed , and mouthed with the reines of loyalty , that their kings negative voyce checkt and stopt them as they were running full speed in so good an imployment : so little doth the instance alleadged advantage your cause . m had christ and his apostles waited in their reformation for the consent of the roman magistrate . ) i answer . first , christ and his apostles ; were christ and his apostles , i meane extraordinary persons , immediately inspired . secondly , the reformation they brought was mainly materiall indeed , being the gospell , without which there was no salvation . thirdly , because they had not the emperours consent to their reformation they pacified his displeased sword by preferring their necks unto it , not repining at the dearnesse of the purchase to buy the safety of their soules with the losse of their lives ; all the jury of the apostles ( john onely accepted ) followed their master to martyrdome : and hence we truly deduced the patterne of passive obedience . n had luther and zuniglius , and oecolampadius stayed for the emperours reformation . ) luther was a minister and so had his share in reforming , so farre as to propagate the truth and confute falshoods by his pen , preaching and disputations . what he did more then this was done by the flat command , at lest free consent of frederick duke of saxony under whom luther lived . this duke owing homage , but not subjection to the emperour ; counted himself ▪ and was reputed of others , absolute in his owne dominions , as invested with the power of life and death to coine money , make offensive and defensive leagues and the like . and although this wary prince long poised himself betwixt feare of the emperor and love of the truth , yet he always either publikely defended luther , or privately concealed him , till at last having outgrowne his fears , he fell boldly to publike reforming . as for the states of zurich and basil , wherein zuniglius and oecolampadius lived , as those cities in one relation are but members of the helvetian common-wealth , so in another capacity they are intire bodies of themselves , and in these states the magistrates did stamp the character of civill authority on that reformation which these ministers did first set on foot by their preaching . but if any extravagant action of worthy men be tendred us in example , our love to their persons binds us not to defend their practice , much lesse to imitate it . we crave liberty , & if denied will take it to leave them to themselves who if they had any especiall warrant to justifie their deeds , will at the last day produce and plead it . o there was a time when god took part of the spirit of moses & put it upon the elders . ) i will not dispute the manner how the spirit was taken from moses , perchance added to others , without being substracted from him , as a candle looseth no light by giving it to another . but this is falsly al●eaged by you to intimate that sometimes inferiour officers may make reformations without the knowledge , yea , against the will of the supreame power . for you must know , that though the sannedrin or seventy elders were a constant court and standing counsell , yet when there was a chief governour they had recourse to him in actions of moment , num. 27. 15 , 16 , 17. and moses spake unto the lord saying let the lord the god of the spirits of all flesh set a man over the congregation which may go out before them ▪ and which may lead them out and bring them in , that the congregation of the lord be not as sheep which have no shepheard . see that notwithstanding the power of the elders stood still in full force , & determined not at moses his death , yet he accounted gods people no better then shepheardlesse , till they had a power paramount placed over them , and a supreame above the elders to guide and direct them . sermon paragraffe 15. mean time meer private men must not be idle but move in their sphere , till the supream power doth reform they must pray to inspire those that have power . secondly , they must reforme themselves and their families . examiner . stil you drive on your design thorow many plausible p insinuations you would keep private men doing but still doing in their owne q circle ; i confesse i would not improve their interest too high nor too soon , for the early settings forth of private men is apt to exceed into a tumultuary motion : yet i would not put them so far behind as they should like the lame & the diseased at the poole of bethesda waiting till a supreame r power came downe amongst them . there are many publike ingagements which they are capable on , & which providence will often guide them to as in finding s out-ways of facilitation & advancement for the businesse ; besides some other arcana and secret t preparations ; we see every thing naturally is spirited with an instinct of aiding , the whole v water and ayre will part with their own interest to serve the universall in the danger of a vacuity ; the very w romans by a morrall principle , would contend to be first in the service of their country , and it remains as a crime upon record that x gilead abode beyond jordan , and that dan remained in ships , and ashur abode in his breaches ; that is that they would sit downe encircled with their owne interest and affaires . treatis . p still you drive on your designe thorow many plausible insinuations . ) not insinuations but positions , and those no more plausible then profitable . truth hath a precious inside , and withall a pleasing face . q you would keep private men doing but still doing in their circle . ) and good reason too for if they be out of their circle , they are very troublesome spirits to conjure downe againe . r not like the lame at the poole of bethesda waiting till a supreame power . ) if god in his word will have it so , they must wait . better to lye still in the porch , though not cured then to rush headlong into the poole and be drowned . s providence will guide them in finding out-wayes of facilitation . ) i protest against all out-wayes , if they be any way different from the high-road of the king of heaven ; reformation however must come lawfully , and if it will not come easily , let it come hardly , we will tug at it with our prayers ( which are alwayes best at a dead lift ) and will sweat but not sin to obtain it . nor can any better facilitation for privat men be found out , then for every one of them to reform themselves . how doth an army of ten thousand men almost change their postures from east to west in an instant , because every one turneth one , and so soone would the work be done in a publike reformation , if particular persons would take care for their private amendment . t besides some other arcana and secret preparations . ) good sir play faire and above board : the surface of the earth is wide enough for us both , creep not into crannies , to put me to the pains of pioners to mine for your meaning : i know the secret of the lord is with the righteous ; but then it is such a secret , as being concealed from prophane persons is revealed in the word . this your expression if cleer from fault , is not free from just suspition , for hereby you buz into peoples hands ( and such tinder i tell you is ready to take fire ) that there are some strange unknown misteries of religion lately communicated to some private men . strange that others of the same forme with you for learning and religion should know no such secrets , except you have received from heaven some expresse packet of intelligence . you might have done well to have told us what these arcana are unlesse being of heavens close committee you be bound to secrecy . meane time i will be bold to tell you that if these secrets differ from gods will in his word , they are depths of the divell and misteries of iniquity . v we see every thing naturally is spirited with an instinct of ayding , the whole water and ayre will part with their owne interests to serve the universall in the danger of a vacuity . ) i distinguish betwixt naturall agents and voluntary , rationall and christian agents . naturall agents goe the neerest way to their owne home , their center , except countermanded to avoid a vacuity , which being yeelded to , necessarily inferres a destruction of the whole . in such a case heavy bodyes have from god a dispensation yea command to ascend , light bodies to descend , forgetting their particular propensity , to remember the publike good , according to the words of the psalmist , he hath made a decree which they shall not passe . but voluntary , rationall and christian agents , are to regulate their actions by gods will in his word ; the greatest and onely vacuity they are to feare is gods displeasure whose glory they are to preferre before their owne temporall self-preservation ; and indeed mans eternall good is wrapped up in his obedience to gods will . wherefore except you can produce a place in gods word , wherein private men are commanded to make publike reformations , there is a meer vacuity of all you have alleadged . w the very romans by a morrall principle would contend to be first in the service of their country . ) it was well done of them . their forwardnesse in serving their country will one day condemne our frowardnesse in deserving our rending our native soyle asunder with civill dissentions ; but in such cases as this is which we have now afoot ( whether private persons may reform without the consent of the supreame power ) we are not to be guided by the practice of the pagan rom●ns but by the precept of the christian romans , let every soule be subject to the higher powers . x and it remaines as a crime upon record , that gilead abode b●yond jordan , and that dan remained in ships . ) thus it was ; sicera a pagan generall under jabin a tyrant and usurper hostilely invaded i●rael . deborah a prophetesse by divine inspiration incited barach to resist him . in this case each single man had a double call to assist barach : one from nature to defend his country , another from gods immediate vocation . here it was lawfull for all to be active , sinfull for any to be idle : jacl the woman was valiant ; shall men be womanish and cowardly ? now prove that private men have the like calling in point of publike reformation and if they be not active , we will not only confesse it their crime but proclaime a curse against them with meros , till this be done this instance befreindeth not your cause . examiner . and y though you would put private men upon such duties here as are godly & commendable the policy is to keepe them exercised in one good duty that they should not advance another & thus you would cunningly make one peece or divinity to betray another , and make the freinds of reformation doe it a discurtesie in ignorance . treatis . y i confesse it is an ancient subtilty of satan , to keep men exercised in one good duty that they should not advance another . thus he busieth some men all in praying to neglect preaching , all in preaching to neglect catechizing all in prayers ▪ preaching , catechizing , to neglect practising . jesabels body was all eaten up , save onely her head , hands and feet . but indiscreet zeal so consumes some , that they have neither hands nor feet left , either to worke or to wa●ke in their christian calling : yea , of all their head nothing remains unto them but onely their ears , re●olving all gods service into hearing alone . but this accusation is not onely improperly , but falsly here layed to my charge because i forbid meer private men to meddle with publike reforming , which belongs not at all unto them : that so cutting off the needlesse suckers the tree may be fed the better ▪ and that private men leaving off those imployments which pertaine not to them , may the more effectually advance their owne amendment ; a taske which when it is done , the severest divine will give them leave to play . and because one dangerous policy hath been mentioned by you , it will not be amisse to couple it with another device of the divell , as seasonable and necessary in these times to be taken notice of . satan puts many meere private men on to be fierce and eager upon publike reforming thereby purposely to decline and avert them from their own selfe-amendment . for publike reforming hath some pleasure in it , as a magisteriall act and work of authority , consisting most in commanding and ordering of others ; whereas private amendment is a worke all of paine , therein a man , as he is himselfe the judge , so he is the malefactor , and must indite himselfe , arraigne himselfe , convict himselfe , condemne hmselfe , and in part execute himselfe crucifying the old man and mortifying his owne corruptions . and we can easier afford to put out both the eyes of other men , to force them to leave their deare darling sinnes , then to pluck out our own right eye ( in obedience to our saviours precept ) and forsake our owne sinnes , which doe so easily beset us . besides men may be prompted to publike reforming by covetousnes to gather chips at the felling of the old church goverment by ambition to see and be seene in office by revenge to wreck their spight on the personall offences of such , whom formerly they distasted . self amendment is not so subject to private ends but goeth against the haire yea , against the flesh it selfe , in making men deny themselves in duty to god . yea , at the last day of judgement , when god shall arraigne men , and say , thou art a drunkard , thou art an adulterer , thou art an oppressor ; it will be but a poore plea for them to say yea lord , but i have been a publike reformer of church and state . this plea , i say , will then not hold water , but prove a broken ●●sterne . nor will god dispence with their want of obedience , because they have offered him store of sacrifice . such people therefore are daily to be called upon , to amend themselves and their families , which is a race long enough for the best breathed private christians , though they start in their youth , and runne till their old age . sermon paragraffe 26. lastly , with carefulnesse not to give any just offence to the papists . examiner . i z wonder you would here expresse an indulgence which is not allowable , and the memory of the parliament will be honourable for that ; they knew so much divinity , as taught them not to value their offence , & to proclaim to them both in england and a ireland an irreconcilable warre . this carefulnesse and tendernesse you plead for , was the first principle which our church so farre , as to take up their altars and ceremonies to avoid offence . saint paul was of another spirit who forbore not b a disciple and apostle . when i saw , saith he , that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospell . you much mistake the divinity of christ , in matter of offence , who never forbore to preach , or publish any necessary truth : nay , when his disciples were scandalized , and said , this is an hard saying , doth this offend you , saith he ? what and if , &c. he goeth on c and pursues the offence , till they left him and his doctrine too . and for the papists , they are much of the relation and constitution of the scribes and pharisees , not without , as you say nor within & yet see if you can find our saviour or his apostles letting out themselves into such restrictions , and moderation , and cautions . those truths which are essentially , d universally , alwayes and at all times holy , ought not to be measured by the unbrage and scandall of the adversary . indeed in things meerly civill or indifferent , our use or liberty may appeare more but for such truths as our reformation shall bring they will be alwayes an offence to the adversary : we preach christ , saith the apostle , unto the jewes a stumbling-blocke , and to the greeks foolishnesse and yet the apostle preacheth , e and layes these blocks , & this rock of offence in the way too . treatis . z i wonder you should here expresse an indulgence which is not allowable . ) i wonder and am sorry withall , to see a protestant take unjust offence at this doctrine , that no just offence is to be given to the papists . know sir , that besides those papists in england and a ireland , to whom you say , the parliament hath proclaimed an irreconcilable war ; there be also many of their religion in spaine , france , germany , italy , poland , &c. all europe over , with whom the parliament hath not as yet , any professed open hostility , and to these no offence must be given . the eye of all christendome is upon us , the sea surrounds , but doth not conceale us : present papists read the text of our actions , and their posterity will write comments upon them ; we cannot therefore be too wary . besides , grant that this irreconcilable war you speak of , should bind men in a martiall way to kill all papists ; yet i pray take notice , that in some cases we may justly kill them , whom in no case we may justly offend . though a malefactor be condemned by the judge to be executed , yet the sheriffe is a murderer if he torment him to death , contrary to the sentence of law . now giving unjust scandall to the papists , is torturing of them , and tyranny to their souls which may eternally destroy them ; and you are the first divine , and i hope shall be the last , which ever held this to be lawfull . whereas you say , i much mistake the divinity of christ in matter of offence . i should be very thankfull to you , if you be pleased to rectifie my erroneous judgement to which end i will crave the readers leave , the more largely to expresse my opinion in this point . i hold that we ought not to give just offence to any man whatsoever : indeed there is no danger of giving offence to the divell . he who fears to offend satan , offends god with his foolish fear : because the divels very nature is all mischief and malice , nothing being good in him save his being which he hath of god and he is utterly incapable of salvation . but seeing in the very worst of men there is some goodnesse , or at lest a capability of grace here , and glory hereafter , through repentance and faith in christ , we may not give any man just offence , as being against the rules of piety , charity and christian prudence . against the rule of piety : because god hath said , give no offence to any . against the rule of charity ; because thereby we are cruell to them which are our brethren by nature , and may be by grace . against the rule of christian prudence because we cannot give any just offence , but also thereby we doe give them a just advantage against us . i beleeve sir , were you to dispute in an university against popish opponents you would so warily state the question which you defend , as that you would not willingly give any upper ground to your adversaries , more then what they could get for themselves . wherfore as the wrestlers in the olimpian games used to annoint themselves with oyle , not only thereby to supple their joynts , but also to make their naked bodies the more slick and slippery , that so those who wrestled with them might catch no hold upon them , so ought we , who are like to have constant opposition with the papists , to give them no more advantage then what they can earn & if we give them more , they will be more ready to jeere us for our folly , then thank us for our bounty unto them . yea , in this respect it is more dangerous to give just offence , and therby just advantage ( for the one cannot be done without the other ) to the papists then to any meer pagans : for pagans being rude , dull and ignorant , though an advantage be given them , cannot in point of learning husband and improve it to the utmost . but the papists whom we doe know and must acknowledge cunning fencers in the school of wit and learning , are so well skild , as ever to keep and inforce the advantage we once bestowed on them . and though we need never feare them and all their art so long as we have god and a good cause on our side , so if we betray our cause by giving them just advantage , it is just with god to deliver us over into their hands , to beat us with our owne weapons . and heare let the reader be pleased to take notice , as much materiall to our purpose , that there is a grand difference , betwixt the removing of things , bad in their owne nature , and betwixt the manner of removing them . if any thing be bad in it selfe , it may not be continued , it must be removed . none can dispence with the retaining thereof , though never so many or great persons take offence at the taking of it away . if friers bee offended thereat , let them turne their girdles , with all their knots in them behind them , whilst wee neede not care for their causelesse anger . they who were so quick sighted that they could see an offence , where it was never given them ; let them looke againe in the same place , and their quick eyes will behold there , the amends which were never tendered them . but now , as for the manner of removing of things badd in themselves , when there is a liberty and latitude left unto us after what fashion we will doe it , either this way or that way , we must doe it so as to give none any just offence . for where it is at our choice and pleasure to use variety of waies , our discretion must pitch on the best , whereby god may receive the most glory , the action the most luster , wee our selves the greatest comfort , and all others no just cause of offence . and here once againe let mee request the reader to observe , that in my sermon , i never mentioned any tendernes , to give the papists offence , in removing of thinges bad in themselves , but this caution of not giving the papists just offence , was inserted in the proper place , when we came to shew how discretion is to appeare in the manner of a reformation . yea the same thing for substance may be done and just offence either may or may not be given according to the different manner of doing it . for instance , such pictures which are in the suburbs of superstition , because the gate of that city is alwaies open , may without any giving of just offence be fairely taken away . but to shoot off the head of the statue of christ , either to spite the papists , or sport our selves giveth just offence . though the image be nothing , yet such usage thereof is something , the bullet shott at the picture , wounds pietie : for to do serious worke in a jearing way , is inconsistent with christian gravities , and argueth not light of knowledge but lightnesse , not to say lewdnesse of behaviour . another instance . suppose that some ceremonies ancient for time , used by the fathers , ( though abused by the papists ( reduced by the protestants , defended by our english , not opposed by forraigne devines , be practised in our church . and withall suppose , that such ceremonies as they are harmelesse so to be uselesse , and not without the suspition of danger , as the present times stand . in this case it will give no just offence to the papists to take them away under the nation , of things unnecessary , and unsuting with our present condition . but to remove them as things prophane , idolatrous , or superstitious , giveth just offence and great advantage to our romish adversaries , by the disgrace we put on antiquity . besides , hereby we betray our freinds which have don good service for our religion , namely such english devines who with their penns have learnedly and truly asserted the lawfulnesse of such ceremonies , and this our retreating from them and leaving them ingaged , ( as ioas served vriah * at the siege of rahab treacherously ) shews much basenesse in us and , in such a case , the dishonouring of good men is the dishonoring of god himselfe . but if i should in courticie yeeld so much unto you ( which i never will ) that it were lawfull to give just offence to & grounded dedicated papists , yet know there be some , who in their opnions , & affections , the borderers betwixt us & the papists , almost protestants not far from our religion , having one foote in it , and the other likely to follow , such people when they see , that we take no care , and make no conscience , to give just offence to the papists , will be ready to retract their resolutions , and call back their forward affections , say not that such men are better lost then found . is this the bowels of christian compassion , which ought to be in us , if we wilfully blast such blossomes , we are not worthy of any ripe fruite , and it is both cruelty and profanesse to cast such doe bakt cakes to the doggs , which by standing a while longer in the oven , would make good and wholsome bread . nor herein do i write only by guesse , but too much by knowledge , such as i can , neither well conceale nor comfortably , relate . for when the religious paines of some reverend devines whom i know , have brought some papists to the doore of our church , the just offence given them , by the moderne extravagances of some undiscreet protestants , caused them to fale backe againe to popery . and now to returne to your examination . all things contained therein , are easily to be answered by that which we have promised . b. saint paule was of another spirit , who forbore not a disciple* and apostle , saint paule perceiving a dangerous error , in peter , reproved him , both presently while the would was greene , and publiquely , that the plaister might be as broad as the fore . but in thus doing he gave no just offence to peter but blamed peter for giving just offence to other christians . c. he goeth on and persueth the offence till they left him ) this instance of christs his cariage herein nothing advantageth you . give me leave to repeate what i said before , if things be bad in themselves , they must be removed , though they give never so many offence or rather though never so many or great men , take offence thereat so also if a necessary ▪ tru●h bee to be introduced , it must be preached and brought into the church , though never so many be offended thereat . and if there be but one way , and no more allowed us , how and in what manner to do it , according to that one way , it must be don , not valluing the offending of any . but if verity of way be permitted unto us , god expects that we should give the least , and if possible no offence to any . now to apply the truth which our saviour heare preached , and pressed , was of absolute and necessary concernment . namely that he was the true manna messiah and bread from heaven . such truths must bee preached , and if any burne with anger threat , let not their fire be quenched , till it goe out for want of fuell . the case is farre otherwise in this reformation , betwixt us and the papists . we had all essentiall truths before , and if any ornamentall , or additionall truths be now to be brought in , they must be so done as to give no just offence to the papists . d. those truths , which are essentially , universally , alwaies , and at all times holy ought not to be measured , by the umbrage and scandall of the adversaries . ) if hereby you meane , that necessary truths must not bee forborne to bee preached , for feare of giving any offence , i clearely concurre with you . onely i say that all such truths are in our church already , and not now to bee newly brough in , ( as you intimate ) by the reformation . e. and yet the apostle preacheth , and layes those blockes and this rock of offence in the way too . ) the apostle preached christ , and intended him to be a rock of defence to all , as for those who perverted him to bee a rock of offence to themselves , this scandall was not justly given to them , but unjustly taken by them . if papist take offence at any such truth , it shall affect us no more then the cryes of baals prophets * affected any of whom it is said , there was none to answer them , nor any that regarded them . but as for the manner of removing away any errors , or bringing in any truths , we ought to bee wary and circumspect , for our own sakes , as well as theirs , to give them no just offence . to conclude . for mine owne part sir i pittie the persons of all papists , & heartily desire their convertion , but hate theirs , and all other errors , with a perfect hatred . and this my enmity to all popish tenents , doth the more plainely appeare to be grounded on my judgement not on my passion , because i would have al men so cautious , as not to give them just advantage , least our actions fight for them , whilst our affections fight against them . what frier will not laugh in his coule at this your opinion , that it is lawfull to give papists just offence ? well , you never shall have my consent , to combate as our churches champion , against rome for the protestant cause , untill you have learnt more skill in fencing , and not to lye at so open a guard . and if you hold it lawfull to give papists just offence , by the next returne you will hold it lawfull to give just offence to all , which are termed popishly affected , the gangrean of which expression , is by some extended to taint as sound and hearty protestants , as any be in england . sermon page . 24. that it is to be desired , not hoped for , a pla●…oes common-wealth and moores vtopia these phrases are pleasing but unfeerable . examiner . hee that lookes abroad shall soone have his sight terminated , but the more hee goes on the more he sees , and that which closed his prospect opens then into new discoveries ; if you see no perfect reformation as you stand , do not therefore say there is none , they that stand higher and on a holyer mountaine , perhapps see farther , you that stand in the horizon g of prelacy cannot see much beyond it ; corruption is deceitfull and makes us like adam see all generations in our selves , because we will not be pefectly reformed , let us not argue our iudgments into a beleeife that we cannot , ● let us think it as possible to be the best , as easie to be the worst , let us not thinke that a plato's common wealth or a mor'es vtopia which for ought we know is reall and existent , there is under the gospell i a royall preisthood , an holy nation , a peculier people , and certainly had former k ages lived to see , but the discovery of latter times , they would have admired their owne ignorance and our happinesse . treatis . f. they that stand higher and on a holyer mountaine , perhapp's see further ) i deny it not . but if they see a perfect church on earth they see it in a trance or vision . g. you that stand in the horizon of prelacy , cannot see much beyond it . ) misse not the matter , to h●tt my person , if i stand in the horizon of prelacy i stand no more for it , then it stands , with gods glory , and will in his word . because you taxe me with dimnesse of sight , i will strive by my study to get the best advantage ground i can , i will begg of god , to animate mine eyes with his * eye salve , i will be carefull to keepe mine eyes from being bloodshot , by animating any to cruelty in this unnaturall warr and know sir that they who stand in the horizon of presbutary , or independency , are subject also to errors , and mistakes . as delight in old customes may deceive some , so desire of novelty may blind the eyes of others . god helpe us all we are badd at the best . h. because we will not be perfectly reformed , let us not argue our iudgments into a beleife that we cannot ) a distinction or two of perfection and your fallacy will perfectly appeare . some saints in the scripture phrase are stiled perfect , but then it is comparatively as they stand in opposition to * wicked men who have no goodnesse at all in them . or else they are called perfect as so denominated from their better part ( good reason the best godfather , should name the child ) their regenerate halfe , which desires , and delights in endeavoring towards perfection , or lastly perfection is taken for integrity , sincerity , and unrightnesse opposite to inward hippocrisie , and in such a perfection the heart may have many defects by the by , but no dissimulation in the maine service of god . such a perfection as this , men may have , yea must have , in this life , and without such a perfection here , no hope of any happinesse hereafter . but as for an exact● legall perfection ( such as some papists dreame of , and most anabaptists doate on ) a perfection able to stand before gods iustice , without the support of his mercy , it is utterly impossible for mortall men to attaine unto it . in which sence in my sermon , i said that a perfect reformation of a church in this world is difficult to be prescribed , and impossible to be practised . yea let me tell you sir ( cautious comming from goodwill , deserve to be heard , if not heeded ) if you persist in this opinion of exact perfection , i conceive your condition dangerous . elisha told king ioram , beware that thou passe not * such a place , for thither the aramites are come downe . i may friendly tell you , presse not one any further in this point , for spirituall pride lyeth hard by in waite , and the ambush thereof will surprise you . for my owne part , as i hate my badnesse , so i hugge the confession that i am badd , and gods children , finde both contentment and comfort in knowing they cannot bee perfect . hence they learne , ( what soule so bad , which hath not sometimes some holy-day thoughts ) to loath earth to love . heaven , to runne from themselves , to fly to their saviour , to pittie others , to pray heartily for them , to hope comfortably of them , in a word this doctine , abateth pride , increaseth charity , and confoundeth censuring . yea i solemnely professe that i would not herein change my doctrine for yours , to have much to boote . should i say , that i could be perfect , both my head and my heart would give my tongue the lye . and one of the best hopes , i have to goe to heaven , is that i am sute i deserve hell . i remember a strange , but true and memerable speech of reverend mr. fox * to this effect , that his graces sometimes did him harme , whilst his sinne did him much good . a wonderfull thing , yet sometimes so it commthe to passe , god making a cordiall for us of our owne wickednesse , thereby teaching us humility . i. there is under the gospel a royall priesthood , an holy nation a peculiar people . ) true , here these things are sincerely begunne , and hereafter fully perfected , for in this life there is still some basenesse , even in the royall priesthood , impiety in the holy nation , commonnesse in the peculiar people . and i pray remember you are to prove , that a whole church may bee perfectly reformed in this world . for though it were granted that some men might be perfect , yet it followeth not thereupon , that any one church is existent on earth , consisting intirely all of perfect members . hipocrites are of so glutenous a nature , they will stick close in every visible church . they cannot be devided , who cannot be discerned , except one could borrow gods touchstone of hearts , such shining drosse will ever passe current in this kingdome of grace . k. had former ages lived but to see the discovery of latter times ) if by former ages you meane the time of popery , i concurre with you . if you understand the times of the primitivs fathers , i suspend my suffrage till the next paragrave . but if you extend it to the age of christ , and his apostles , i flatly discent . nor am i sensible of any such late discoveries in religion though many recoveries thanks he to god there have been , in rescuing the faith from romish superstition . l. they would have admired their owne ignorance and our happinesse . ) by our happinesse , i suppos● you meane , what lately we had before this warre began , and what we had not the happinesse to keepe , and wee trust in due time , god will restore to us againe . otherwise , as for our present woefull condition , i would not wish our friends , or envie our foes such happinesse . sermon paragarffe 32. there are some now adayes talke of a great light mainfested in this age more then before . indeede we modernes have a mighty advantage of the antients , whatsoever was theirs by industry may be ours , all contribute themselves to us who live in this latter age . examiner . if we had no more light , then what you insinuate were seene from the fathers , why doe we see more , and more cleerely and further ? he that sees far , must either have a good sight or a cleare light , and sure in this age wee have both , those errours which our fathers saw for dimme truthes we see for herisies ; so surely both our eyes , and our light are better ; for the light which our fathers have in their lamps can discover , but so much to us , as it did to them , and we know our discovery is such , as wee are able to see the shadow which followed them , even that mistery , which was working in their dayes , both in prelacy and ceremony , who will deny but that the cloud of antichristianisme , was thicke in their times , and then the light could not be so glorious , as now when those couds grow thinner , and more attenuated by the preaching of the gospel . treatise . to cut off all occasion and pretence of caviling , wee will shew , god willing , in what respect the fathers , for knowledge excelled , and exceeded us , and in what respect wee modernes goe beyond them . they had a threefold advantage above us . 1. of sight . 2. of light . 3. and of a nearer object . first , of a better sight . being men of eminent natural parts , improved with excellent learning , and to the easterne fathers , the greeke tongue , the language of the new teastament was naturall , so that it costeth us much paines and sweat but to come to the place whence they started . secondly , of a brighter light . as their constancie in persecution was great , so no doubt the heate of their zeale was attended with a proportionable light , and heavenly illumination god doing much for them that suffer much for him . especially in those points wherein they encountred hereticks , they were more then men , and went beyond themselves , as st. athanasius against the arians , st. augustine against the pelagians and donatists , from whom our moderne brownists differ no more , then the same man differs from himselfe in new cloathes . 3. of a nearer object . they living closer to christs times , could therefore better understand the sence of the church ▪ in the doctrine delivered to the apostles . here we must know that apostles , and apostolick men as they wrote gods word in their epistles ▪ and gospels for the profit of all posterity so for the instruction of their present age they also * traditioned it in their preaching by word of mouth to the people of those times , not that they delivered any thing viva voce contrary or differtent from what they wrote , or that ( as the papists stile for their traditions ) they supplyed and enjoyned any thing as necessary to salvation , which otherwise was wanting in the scripture , but the selfe same things which they wrote in the new testament , they also delivered in their sermons , and in their preaching delated upon them , wherefore the prime primative age , having ( as i may say ) two strings to their bow , scripture , and preaching , must needes bee allowed to have had the clearest apprehention of the meaning of heavenly misteries , and as the children * of israell served the lord all the dayes of iehossuah and all the dayes of the elders , who outlived iehossuah , who had seene all the great workes of the lord which he did for israell , in like manner wee may conclude , that the greatest puritie and the clearest light of the church , lasted so long as any , within sight , hearing , or memory of christ or his apostles preaching , or miracles , did survive . now to hold the scales even , we in like manner have a three fold advantage over the fathers . first a degree of experimentall light more then they had or could have , having seene the whole conduct , mannaging and progresse of religion since their times , whereby ( with a litle helpe of history ) a devine who is under sixtie in age , may be a bove sixteene hundred in experience . secondly , we have the benefits of the fathers bookes , a mightie advantage if we were as carefull to use it to gods glory , as we are ready to bragg of it for our owne credit . and here i must complaine of many mens lazinesse . indeed a learned man * compareth such as live in the latter times in respect of the fathers to dwarffes standing on giants shoulders . but then if we will have profitt by the fathers learning , we must take paines to mount to the tope of their shoulders . but if like idle dwarfes , we still do but stand on the ground , our heads will not teach to their girdles , it is not enough to through the bookes of the fathers , togeather on an heape , and then making their workes our footestoolle to stand on the outside and covers of them , as if it were no more , but vp and ride , boasting how far we behold beyond them . no , if we expect to gett advantage by their writings , we must open their bookes , read , understand , compare , digest and meditate on them . and i am affraid many that least looke into the fathers , boast most that they looke beyond them . thirdly . wee have the advantage of a darknesse removed by gods goodnesse from our eyes , which in some matters did dimme the sight of the fathers . namely the mistery of iniquity which wrought in their times , & now is taken away in the protestant church . that bramble of rome , ( soone will it prick , which will be a thorne , ) which afterwards lorded it over the vine , olive , and figtree , beganne very timely to play his parte , and the man of sin , then but an infant ( and every thing is pretty when it is yonge , ) was unawares dandled on the knees of many a devout monke , and rockt in the cell of many an holy hermit , who litle suspected that then voluntary sequestring themselves to enjoy heavenly thoughts , would by degrees degenerate to be in after ages the cover of pride , lust and lazinesse . now seing this man of sinne , is dead already in the protestant church , and hath a consumption attended with the hecktick fever in all other places , the taking away of popish superstition , may justly be accounted the third advantage which our age hath . by the way we must take heed of a fault whereof many are guilty . for some are ready to challenge every thing in the practise of the fathers which doth not please them presently to be popish , and pretend they tast superstition in whatsoever themselves distast . o say they , the fathers lived when the mystery of iniquity did worke , and hence they infer that it is evidence enough without further tryall to condemne any cerimonies used by them , because they were used by them . the way indeede to make short assises , but perjur'd iudges , whereas it is not enough to say , but to shew that they are superstitious , to anotomize , and dissect the popery conteined in them , demonstrating where it crosseth the word of god , wheras on the contrary all wise and charitable men ought to esteeme the practises of the primitive church not only to be innocent , but usefull and honourable till they be legally convicted to be otherwise . if any object that the fathers had another disadvantage , that besides the spreading of popery , other heresies did also spring and sprout apace in that time , to the darkening of the light of the truth , let them know that such opposition only gave truth the opportunity to tryumph , and the teeth of error filled it the brighter heresies , in eodem seculo , quo natae , damnatae equos err●res patrum aetas tulit , eos & sustulit , condemnig them in synods and councells , and in this point to be an equall empire betwixt the ancients and us , we must consider that we live in the later age , and commonly bad humors which have visited the whole body , do settle at last in the leggs and lowest parts , with us sects and schismes do also abound , and some heresies first set a broach in the primitive times , now runne a tilt with all their dredgs in our dayes . thus we see how the fathers were both before and behind us , for knowledge , and wee therein both above and beneath them in severall respects . see the wisdome and goodnesse of god , how he hath sweely tempered things together . so good that all have some , so wise that none have all . and how easie may this controvercy be accommodated , whether ours or the fathers light were the greatest , where if the difference be but cleerly understood , the parties are fully reconciled . and now i conceive having answered you in grosse , i need not apply my selfe to any perticulers of your examination . examiner . the gospel doth worke m and wind its beames into the world according to the propheticall seasons for revelation , many propheticall truthes were sealed up , and those not unsealed but successively , and as our generations after may have a starre rising to them which we have not , so we may have beames n and radiations , and shootings which our fathers had not . the apostles o had not all their truths and light revealed at once , some early , some late , some not till the holy ghost was bestowed . revelations are graduall and the vaile is not taken off at once , nor in one age . we honour the fathers as men in their generations famous , their light was glorious in its degree and quality , but they had not all the degrees attainable , they had a light for their owne times , and we for ours , and who cannot thinke that we are rising into that age p wherein god shall powre his spirit upon all flesh , and wherein the light of the moone shall be as the light of the sunne and the light of the sunne as the light of seaven dayes . treatise . you hover in generalls , and seeme to me desirous that your reader should understand more then you are willing to expresse , my opinion breifly is this . that no new revelations , or new infused light in essentiall points of religion , is bestowed on any now-adayes , but that the same light hath in as plentifull a measure beene given to former ages , especially to the age wherein the apostles lived , and when the faith was once delivered to the saints , and by them sett downe in the scripture , and that then so perfectly and compleatly , that it needed not the accessions of any future revelations . i confesse that men by searching the scripture ( that oyle will never leave increasing as long as more vessells be still brought ) and diligent prayer to god may and do arive daily at a clearer understanding of many places of gods word which they had not before . these words ; thou art peter and on this rock will i build my church , and that place , this is my body , are now more truly and plainly understood then they were 200. yeares agoe , when the popes supremacy was as falsly founded on the former as transubstantiation was unjustly inferred from the latter . however these were not revelations of new truthes , but reparations of ould . for the prime primative church received and embraced the same , the saints * in the time of popery sung as it were a new song , a song not new but renewed , not new in it selfe but perchance to the hearers , and such are many truthes , which are preached in our age in the protestant church . they that maintaine the contrary opinion of moderne revelations of new essentiall truths doe a three fold mischeife therein . first they lay an aspertion of ignorance and imperfection of knowledge on the apostles themselves , and this is no lesse then scandalum magnatum . secondly they much unsettle men in matters of religion , and produce a constant inconstancy and scepticall hovering 〈◊〉 all oppinions and as the athenians erected an altar to the unknowne god , so men must reserve a blancke in their soules therin to write truths as yet unknown , when they shall be revealed . thus men will never know when their creede is ended , and will daily waver in that truth which they have in possession , whilst they waite for a clearer and firmer as yet in revertion . thirdly , they fixe on the scripture an imputation of imperfection and such as talke of new revelations of truth , may well remember the passage in the old revelation . * if any man shall add unto these things , god shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this booke . and it seemes to mee all one in effect whether men peece the scriptures , with old traditions , or new revelations ; and thus the papist and anabaptist are agreed like men in a circle going so farre from each other with their faces , till their backes meete together . and i professe i should sooner trust a tradition containing in it nothing crosse to the scripture and comming to mee recommended from the primitive times , and countenanced with the practise of the church in all ages , then a new upstart revelation . the best is , wee have no neede to trust either , whilst we have gods word alone sufficient to relie on . the result of all is this , we have now a-dayes no new truths revealed , but old ones either more fairely cleared or more firmely assented to , no new starres of revelation arise in any hearts . if any such doe burne and blaze there , they are but commerts which will fade at last . in a word this age is not happie with any new truths , but guiltie of many old lyes . yea , it rendereth it suspitious , that some men are going about somewhat , which they cannot justifie by the old knowne lawes of god , because they beginne to broach preparative doctrines , introductorie of new revelations : distrusting ( as it seemes ) the scripture , the old iudge , as not for their turnes , because they provide for an appeale to an other vmpirer ; and if those are justly accounted dangerous members in the church , who would bring in innovations in ceremonies , then pretenders of new revelations in essentiall points of doctrine are so much the greater offenders , by how much doctrine is more necessary , and fundamentall in a church then ceremonies . but i will answer some passages in your examination particularlie . m. the gospel doth worke and winde its beames into the world , according to the propheticall seasons for revelotions . ) distinguish we heare , betwixt matters of fact , and matters of faith . matters of fact being foretold in the scripture , are best understood when they are accomplished : in which respect the longer the world lasteth , the clearer men see & the plainer they understand such predictions . the seales in the revelations were successively opened , the trumpets successively blowne , the vialls successively powred out , and the things imported in and by them , are successively performed . wherefore time is the best comentator on the propheticall parts of the bible , dies diem docet . and to day , which is yesterdaies schoolemaster will be scholler to morrow , in which respect the * prophets words are most true , many shall runne too and fro , and knowledge shall be increased . but now , as for matters of faith , they were at once , and for ever , fully , and freely , delivered at the first to the apostles , and so from them to us , and that so perfectly , & compleatly , they neede no new revelations , quo ad materiam , though quoad modum , old truths may now have a new measure to be more clearely understood then in the darke times of popery . n. we may have beames , and radications , and shootings , which our fathers had not . ) for beames and radication of knowledge , i have delivered my oppinion : but as for shootings , god k●owes wee have many such as our fathers never had ; god in his mercy cease such shootings , or else in his iustice direct the bulletts to such markes , as in truth have been the troublers of our israel . o. the apostles had not all their truths and light , revealed at once , some early , some late , some not till the holy ghost was bestowed . ) all this is most true which you say , the apostles at first were ( as we may say ) freshmen , newly admitted into christs company . then they tooke their first degree of knowledge , when sent forth to preach the gospel , mat. 10. to the iewes alone in their masters life time . they commenced in a higher knowledge after christ his resurrection ; and after his assention , assended yet higher in spirituall illuminations : lastly , after the comming of the holy ghost , they proceeded doctors in deede ; i meane , they then had the completion and consumation of all understanding necessary to salvation . now sir , consider that after this time , they wrote the new testament , and therein all essentialls for us to know and doe for our soules health , so that we now doe deduce and derive our knowledge , not from the apostles in their infancy , or minority of judgement , but from them having attained to the top , and verticall point of their perfectest skill in heavenly misteries . p. and who cannot thinke , wee are rising into that age , wherein god will power his spirit upon all flesh , &c. ) what proportion doth this beare with what you said not long since . prophesying that our marian times did approach too fast ? when nothing was light but the bo●efiers to burne the marters . i will not deny , but this great sun m●y arrise , but the reigning vices of the time are but an ill morning starre to harbinger the rising thereof . we have taken the st. shippe from those in heaven , but have no more holinesse in our selves here on earth . what betwixt the sins which brought this warre , and the sinnes this warre hath brought , they are sad presages of better times . never was gods name more taken in vaine by oathes and imprecations . the lords day , formerly profained with mirth , is now profained with malice , and now as much broken with drummes as formerly with a taber and pipe . superiours never so much slighted , so that what * naball said sullenly , and ( as he applyed it ) falsly , we may say sadly & truly , there be many servants now adayes , that breake away , every man from his master . killing is now the only trade in fashion , & adultery never more common , so that our nation ( in my opinion ) is not likely to confound the spirituall whore of babilon , whilst corporall whoredom is in her every where committed , no where punished . theft so usuall , that they have stollen away the word of stealing , and hid it under the name of plundering . lying both in word & print grown epidemicall , so that it is questionable whether gunnes or printing , ( two inventions of the same countrey and standing ) at the present doe more mischeife in this kingdome . it is past coveting of our neighbours houses , when it is come to violent keeping them . he therefore that doth seriously consider , the grievousnesse and generality of these sinnes , will rather conclude that some darkenesse of desolation , then any great light is likely to follow upon them . god i confesse in mercy may doe much , both to pardon and prosper us , and can extract light out of darkenesse , but whether he will or no , i ( though confident of his power , ) see little cause to hope of his pleasure herein , and though herein i must confesse , many of these inormities . may , ( though not wholy be excused , yet ) be something extenuated , by pleading the unavoidable necessities which warre doth cause , yet surely wee shall answer to god for causing this warre , by our crying sinnes , and transgressions . q wherein the light of the moone shall be as the light of the sunne , and the light of the sun as the light of the seven dayes . ) this , for ought i can finde to the contrary , was accomplished as christ comming , and the generall giving of the gospel to the gentiles , with the sending of gods spirit miraculously upon them , sure i am a paralell place of the prophet was then fulfilled , by the exposition of saint * peter himselfe , and it shall come to passe in the last dayes ( saith god ) i will power out my spirit upon all flesh : and your sonnes and your daughters shall prophesie , and your young-men shall see visions , and your old men shall dreame dreames . these words having the advantage of that date in the last daies , might with the more colour have beene alleadged by you , and applyed to these times , to prove some speciall revelations in our dayes , had not the apostle marred your mart , and prevented you by applying the prophesie to the primative times . examiner . but we see the policy r of commending the fathers light to our generation , for could you prevaile with us to set our dialls by that , you then might reforme our church by the canterburian gnomen , and so set us backe to a falsly-reputed , primitive reformation . treatise . r. but wee see the policie of commending the fathers . ) i protest before almighty god i have neither base nor by respect in praising the fathers . saint paule blamed * peter at antioach , because he was to be blamed . i in the like manner commend the light of fathers , because it is to bee commended not for any favour or flattery . a falsely-reputed primitive reformation , i abhorre from my heart , & i presume our church is to wise to be cosened therewith . if canterbury hath misbehaved himselfe his friends for him desire no more , and foes to him should grant no lesse , then a legall triall . but insult not on any mans sufferings , organs i dare say , are not so offensive in churches as the making of musick on men in misery . time was when you sett as much by a smile from canterbury , as he still setts litle by a scoffe from you . sermon paragraffe 13. 14. 15. 16. the qualification for reformers , the decent burialls of such ceremonies , as are taken from the fathers , the honorable reservation to our first reformers . examiner . that it may appeare i looke not only at the worst of the sermon , there are excellent truths in it , and it is pitty they are not better s scituated , i could alwaies wish to see a diamond set in gold . these are good positions , and in their pages not without their enamill of witt , yet there is a policy to write faire in one lease , though you t make a blot in another , but i cannot let these passe without some observation . treatise . s. and it is pitty they are not better scituated , i could alwaies wish , to see a diamond set in gold . ) i cannot blame you , especially if the diamond be their owne . but what meane you by this expression ; would you have had the truths in my sermon to have beene set in the gold of rich & glittering language . truly i could not go to the cost thereof especially on so sh●rt warning , wherein the sermon was made . how ever a diamond , is a diamond though set in horne , whereby the luster thereof may be somewhat dimmed , but the worth thereof no whit deminished . but in one respect i must confesse these truthes were ill scituated , that they stood too neere to a captious reader , who tooke causelesse exception at them . t. yet there is a policie to write faire in one leafe , though you make a blot in another ) shew me sir , where these blotts bee . for as yet i am more troubled to know my fault , then my defence . examiner . first for qualification , v i dare say , never age afforded more eminent in this kimgdome , their calling lawfull , their pietie exemplary , their knowledge radiant , their courage experienced through a legion of difficulties , their prudence in the conduct of a businesse , though opposed with the policy , and malignity of a grand and potent enemy . treatise . v. for their qualification i dare say . ) if you dare say it , i dare not to gainsay it . their calling no doubt is lawfull , if the supreame powers concurres with them . of their pietie , which consists in their hearts , god alone is iudge . i will not dispute against their radiant knowledge , nor fight with their experienced courage , and it were folly in me to oppose their prudence . let not the perfections of king davids * subjects be numbered . god make their konwledge , their courage , their prudence , an hundred fold more then it is , and may the eyes of my lord the king see the same , to his comfort and honour . examiner . and for the decent buriall of ceremonies , and superstitions w of the fathers ) they shall have a parliament of senators , and an assembly of devines to lay them in their grave , and i dare say a godly congregation in the kingdome to sing a psalme at their funerall ; and will not this be a very decent x buriall ? and for the honorable reservation , to the reformers , and their memories , our devines and reformers , now have ever made resorte and appeale to the truths they delivered ; and in those times when beza , and calvin , and peter mertir were set lowest , till the master of the feast came lately , and bid them sitt up higher , a caistan and bellarmine , and a councell of trent , i am sure had more honor from the devinity of the other yeare , or your times , so farre we admire the reformers as to love their truths and to pittie their errors . but i will not say much , errors may be more provoked then remedied with over-handling ; let us be wise in the colours of good and evill , though it be an honest , yet it is a dangerous mistake to many our freinds , and to f●w our enemies . treatise . w. as for the decent buriall of ceremonies and superstitions of the father . ) * you are cunning to improve your selfe on my words . in my sermon i made a double supposition , first , if there be found in the fathers practice any ceremo●●es smacking of paganisme or popery . secondly . if the same can be justly challenged to be continued in our church now , ( as if two suppositions made a position ) you flatly infer & perumtorily conclude such superstitions are in our church . i should be loth to sell wares to such a chapman , and to trust his honesty in measuring of them out , who hath such a slight in slipping his fingers , that gives him an inch and hee will take an ell . you might have don better , to have tould us what the perticulers of these superstitions are . x. and will not this be a decent buriall . ) the pleasantnesse of your witt doth please me , some mirth in this sadd times doth well . but you might have been pleased to have taken notice , that by the decent buriall of superstitious ceremonies , ( if any such can be proved to be in our church ) i ment the removing of them in that manner , as might give no just offence to any , as i have largely discoursed of before . however as you say , let but a parliament lay them in the ground and i shall not moorne for their death but rejoyce at their solemne and legall interment . y. had more honour from the devinitie of the other yeare , or your times . ) the more shame for such , if any who under valued such worthy men . and blessed be god that they have recovered their former esteem . for my part they have not with me regained any new degree of honor , but still keepe the selfesame place in my valuation of them whereof they ever were peaceably possessed . examiner . if i be now examined what reformation i aime at , i answere , my endeavour here , was only to take out of the way such rubbish as others would bring in ; if we can but cleare the passage , we go farre in the worke , and in the meane time let us like ioshuas spies , bring no evill report upon the land we are going to . treatise . z. my endeavour here was only to take out of the way such rubbish as others would bring in . ) whether rather , you have not brought in such rubbish , which others have taken away , be it reported to the juditious reader . a. let us like ioshuas spies , bring no evill report upon the land we are going to . ) by ioshuas spies , you meane those who accompanied caleb , & ioshua ; to spie the land of canaan , and these were guilty of a three fold fault . first they spake truth with an ill intent , to disharten the israelites , in their reporting of the strength of the country . secondly , they speake more then truth , raising the walls of the cannanitish cities by their hyperbolyes bolyes as high as heaven , * lastly they suppressed the most materiall point , not incouraging the people , ( as caleb and ioshua did , by the assured assistance of god against their enemies . but i conceive my selfe , ( against whome your words are darted ) to be innocent in the foresaid perticulers . examiner . but suppose this perfect reformation , b or church , were among the c {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the ragione disacro dominio . he were no wise d , nor faithfull devine who would not preserve that secret e for holy advantages , t' is gods owne designe and his apostles to hould out a perfection to us , be perfect as your heavenly father , and some pastors for the perfection of the saints , i commend boden and tacitus for their politicall faithfulnesse , they writt farre yet would not sunne the imperiall , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} nor make them popular . treatise . b. but suppose this perfect reformation were e. c. ) it seemes you suspect the strength of your outworkes , that you so seasonably retire to your castle , now at last condemni●g this doctrine , not as false , but unfitting to be preached . c. were among the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} i thinke you would say {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} or otherwise sir my learning will not extend to understand this your new greeke . d. he were no wise and faithfull devine ) so then you conclude me a foolish & deceitful minister , & i had rather you should call me so tentimes , then my guiltie conscience should tell me so once , for concealing of a necessary truth . e. who would not preserve that secret for holy advantages . ) first the question is , wheither or no it lay in my power if i would to keepe this point secret . what your people at heslerton● in yorkeshire are , you best know in this doctrine , i was not the teacher but the remembrancer of my people at the savoy , from whom had i closely covered it with both my hands , they would have seene it through all my fingers . besides what hope can one have to keepe it secret when ( as you say ) so great and glorious a light is shining now-a-dayes . but if i could , i ought not to suppresse it . let popish tenents be shutt in a cloister , and sicke opinions keepe their chamber , god never lighted this truth for us to put it under a bushell , it being alwaies seasonable to bee divulged , and now dangerous to bee concealed . these holy advantages , ( i would not count them advantages were they not holy , ) arise from preaching this point . first , it awakens men from their idle dreames of their conceited perfection of a church here , and too many i feare have made this common-wealth here woefully militant , under pretence here to make the church happily triumphant . secondly , to teach all christians ( majestrates and ministers most especially ) as industry so patience , daily to doe , and constantly to suffer no whitt disheartned in their endeavours to perfection . knowing though things bee badd , after their best labours to amend them , that this proceedes from the inevitable vanity , to which the creature is subject . thirdly , to weane men from this world , making them to love and long for the time of the restitution of all things , when this world as a watch out of tune shall not onely bee taken ass●nder and scoured , but also have all the wheeles made new and then bee perfectly reformed . yea sir , let us try whether you or i proceeding on our contrary principles , shall more effectually perswade a reformation , you will tell the world that a perfect reformation in this life is attaineable , even to the anticipating of heaven heare , and this you will presse with all your power and flowers of retorick , and all little enough to performe so unsavory an untruth . now see sit what mischeifes will follow hereupon . 1. because one falsehood requires more to support it , you must call in other auxilliary falsities to defend this , and so engage your selfe in a multitude of errors . 2. seeing sl●ghts and shifts can never last long , your forgery will be detected . 3. you are lyable to heavens pillorie to bee punnished for holy fraud . 4. you will scarce be trusted afterwards though telling truth being once convicted and ever suspected of falshood . as for those whom you have deceived unto the utmost of their endevours of reformation , on your false perswasion that the perfection thereof may bee had in this world , though their labours therein bee very forward at the first , yet soone will they wither and weaken ▪ with the graine in the gospel that wanted roote ( no roote and a false roote are the same in effect , ) and gods blessing cannot be expected on the deceitfull proceedings . as for mee who have no cunning in such hunting , but please my selfe with iacob to bee a plaine man , i would goe another way to worke , and tell them the worst first , that indeede it is vaine to expect a perfect reformation in this world . however let them comfort themselves , that wee serve such a master who accepts of the will for the deede , and knowes whereof we are made . hee remembreth that wee are but dust . and therefore let us doe our best , and strugle against our infirmities , being confident that god in christ will pardon what is amisse , and reward what is good in us . and i doubt not but such doctrine by gods blessing will both take deeper impression in mens hearts , and bring forth better fruits of amendment in their lives . f. i commend bodin and tacitus for their politicall faithfulnesse , they writt far , yet would not sun the imperiall {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} nor make them popular . ) i confesse it to bee unfitting , yea dangerous to impart misteries of state to private people , for such iewels are to bee lockt in a safe and sure cabinet , the bosoms of politians , not so in necessary points of divinity , for though every private man hath not a state to governe , hee hath a soule to save , and therefore must be partner in all wholsome doctrines . indeede in some cases , preachers may though not finally suppresse , yet seasonably conceale , or rather warily deferre the publishing of some points of religion , first when they are not of absolute concernement to salvation , & the minister by his christian discretion plainely foresees , that all the good which rationally can bee expected to redound from preaching such a truth , will not countervaile the ill , which in probability will inevitably follow thereupon ; or else when the auditors are not capeable as yet of such difficult doctrines . christ himselfe did fitt his wines to his bottles , powring in not what hee could give , but they could take , least otherwise hee should rather spill his liquor , then fill his vessells . neither of these cases now alledged take place concerning the publishing of the doctrine of the impossibility of the churches perfection in this world . for we may by gods blessing justly expect and promise to our selves and others much good and comfort from the preaching thereof , as we have largely proved before . nor dare i so much to disparage the times we live in , ( now it being above a hundred yeares since luthers reformation ) as to count them to have age so much , and knowledge so litle , as not yet to be capable with safety & profit of so plaine & true a doctrine , some shortly expect the day of iudgment , and sure then the world is already come to age to understand truths , except shee come not out of her mynority till just shee be ready to die and to be dissolved . g. would not sunne the imperiall {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . ) godly secrets in religion in some respects may be sunn'd . first that thereby they may be tryed , ( all truths have eagles eyes ) whether or no they can behold , and beare the sunne beames . secondly , because our * saviour hath said , what i tell you in darknesse , that speake in the light , and what you heare in the eare that preach you upon the house toppe . lastly , that by proclaiming them the godly may have an oppertunity to receive them , and the wicked be rendred unexcusable for refusing them , when such truths are made generally knowne . h. nor make them popular . ) i distinguish on the word popular . if it be taken , as generally it is , ( use having confined a word , of generall acception in it selfe , to an ill sence ) to court the good will of people for any private or sinester end , it is utterly unlawfull for popularity , which is necessary love , in a prince , is unlawfull lust , in a subject , who may not court the kings wife , for to him a lone , are the people married in a politicke relation . all honest men therefore disclaime , to make truths popular in this fence , to impart them to the vulgar to gaine any vaine applause . yea , consider herein , whether you rather be not faultie in making the imperiall {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to bee popular , who incite and incourage ordinary people , to make a publique reformation but truths in divinity must be made popular , that is bee communicated to all people , in true sinceritie for the saving of their soules . the * apostle , calleth it the common salvation , and therefore it must be preached to all in common , our sermons must , aswell be ad populum as ad clerum . otherwise such monopolies are illegall and distructive to the state of the church , for any ministers to engrosse any wholsome doctrine to themselves , and not imparte it to their parish , except in the cases afore mentioned . examiner . apology . i have now done ( i will not say ) refuting , but committing errors , i am afraid my hast at this time , hath made me mend one fault , only with another . treatise . i will not oppose yours , but annex my owne conclusion . if i should deny my owne many imperfections , my practise would confute what my pen hath maintained . reader , for the matter of what i have written , i require thee , in gods name do me iustice , for the manner , method , or words thereof , i request thee , as i am a man shew mee favour . thinke not the worse of the truths , for my sake , but thinke the better of me , for the truths sake which i have defended . and conceive me not to be of a brawling and controversiall disposition , who do desire and will pray for an agreement from my soule , so long as my speech shall serve me . yea if i should chance to be stricken dumbe , i would with zacharia make signes for table booke● and write the name of that which i desire above all earthly thing is peace . god send it , amen . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a85036e-490 quid amplius praepotenti & immortali deo tribuimus si quod eius proprium est eripimus ? bodin . de repub. l. 1 c. ult notes for div a85036e-970 2 cor. 1. 17. 18. acts 25. 16. notes for div a85036e-1480 2 sam. 3. 14. 1 cor 7. 26. gen. 31. 27. gen. 31. 31. luk. 8. 18. acts 17. 11. act. 20. 38. notes for div a85036e-1830 acts 24. 5. pro. 11. 15. bodin de repub. lib. 1. p 50. iudg. 19. 29. 1 king. 19. 14. rev. 3 16. mat. 11. 12. notes for div a85036e-2370 1 king. 13. 18. 2 sam. 13. 19. jude 9. 1 the doctrine of the impossibility o● a churches perfection in this world , being well understood , begets not lazinesse but the more industry in wise reformers phil. 3. 13. bishop montague , franciscus , secta clara . 2. that the church of england cannot justly be taxed with ●●perstitious innovations . pro 9. 13. a foolish woman is clamoro●● . ephe. 4. 31. wrath and anger , and clamour . 1 thes. 4. 11. study to be quiet . bucer in lib. d● regno christ● . a 〈◊〉 perpetua● ecclesia●um observation● ab ipsis iam apostolis v●d mus , visnm & h●c esse spiritus sancto ut inter presbite●● quibus ecclesiarum precuratis potissimum est comm●ss● unus ecclesia● rum , & let us sac●● minis●●rii ●aram 〈◊〉 singularem eaque enra & solicttudina cauctis prec●at alus , qua de ca●sa ep●scopi nomen huiusm●di summis ecclesiarum curatoribus est peculiaritur attributum . bucerus de regno christi lib. 2. cap. 12. b m. greenham in his grave counsels in the word atheisme , pag. 3. c q●am horrenaum illi faciunt divina maiestati contumeliam qni templa domini habent pro de ambulaer●is lucisque tam prophanis ut in illis quaevis impura & prophana cum similibus suia garriant & per●ractent . — haec certa tanta est divini numinis contemptio ut ea vel sola prid●m meriti sumus o●n no de terra exterminari & quidem suppliciis gravissimus multari bucerus de r●gno christi lib. 1. cap. 10. nehem. 8. 1. 3 how far private christians , ministers and subordinate magistrates are to concur to the advancing of a publike reformation . 2 sam. 20. 1. 4. what parts therein are onely to be acted by the supreame power . mar. 5. 3. 2● . 5. of the progresse and praise of passive o●e●ence . est haec pontificiorum tess●ra crudelitas , aliud est protestantium symbol●m clementia . isti occidunt , hi occidunt laurentius humphreys in resp●n . ad epistolas camp●ani . deut. 2. 5. 2 king. 14. to cro. 15. 19. pro. 20 19. & 24. 21. & 26. 17. & 20. 3. exo. 21. 33. 34 6. that no extraordinary excitations , incitations or inspirations are bestowed from god on men in these dayes . gen. 22. 2. judg. 16. 30. exod. 12. 36. this appeares because in the prop●et he is stiled governo●r of judah , hag 1. 14. and that at the s●lf same time when ezra came thither , see luthers chronology in 40. millenarco . auscrenda idola , non potest quisquam iubere privatus aug. cont. literos utilium lib. 2. cap 92. ezra 4. 24. drusius in pentetuchen ex r. aben-ezrah . pro. 3. 32. ps. 148. q rom. 13. 1 in publi●cos 〈◊〉 , omn●●s 〈◊〉 t. rtullianus . 2 king ▪ 9. 35. mat. 5. 29. that it is utterly unlawfull to give any just offence to the papists or to any men whatsoever . 1 cor. 10. 32. 2 cor. 6. 3. * 2. sam. 11. 15. gall . 2. 11 * 1 king. 18. 29. * rev. 3. 18. * sanctorum nonnulli perfecti dicuntur respectu mundanorum , qui negligunt res divinas nec ingrediuntur unquam viam prosectionis amb. com. in epist : ad phil. cap. 3. * 2 king. 6. 9. * cited by mr. capel in his booke of temptation . 8. what advantage the fathers had of us in learning , and religion , and what wee heve of them . * {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . 1 cor. 11. 23. * iudg. 2. 7● * nos nani sumus stantes super humeros gygantum . hol. cott. . 9. no new light or new essentiall truths are or can be revealed in this age . * revel. 14 3. * reve. 21. 18. * dan. 12. 4. * 1 sam. 25. 10 * ioel 2. 28. acts 2. 17. * gal. 2. 11. * 2 sam. 3● * paragraffe 24. * 1 dut. 28. 10. that the doctrine of the churches imperfection may safely bee preached and cannot honestly bee concealed . * math. 10. 26 * iude. 3. pax vobis, or, gospel and liberty against ancient and modern papists / by a preacher of the word. 1687 approx. 226 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 72 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2008-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a42142 wing g1994 estc r31733 12249189 ocm 12249189 57062 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a42142) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 57062) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1504:35) pax vobis, or, gospel and liberty against ancient and modern papists / by a preacher of the word. brown, s. j. gordon, john, 1644-1726. griffith, evan, a.m., minister of alderly. the fifth edition corrected and amended. [16], 126 p. s.n.], [s.l. : 1687. other editions read: by e.g. a preacher of the word. variously attributed to evan griffith, s.j. brown, and john clement gordon. reproduction of original in the bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in 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overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng freedom of religion -england. church and state -england. reformation -england. 2006-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-01 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-07 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2007-07 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion pax vobis : or , gospel and liberty : against ancient and modern papists . by a preacher of the word . the fifth edition , corrected and amended . stand fast in the liberty , wherewith christ hath made us free , and be not entangl'd again with the yoke of bondage , ( popery . ) gal. c. 5. v. 1. printed , anno dom. 1687. the preface to the children of the reformation . be not concerned to know whose hand it is which holds the link , but follow the light it gives : reach your hand to receive this treatise , which marks the shore , where the ark of our reformation , shatter'd by a deluge of troubles , may rest ; which is a holy liberty to all and each person to believe or not believe , act or not act as he pleases , with a safe conscience , according to the principles of our reformation . we generally lament the convulsions which shake our church and state , through the diversity of opinions , professed by our several congregations ; some remedies have been applied to bring us to peace and conformity ; but all have proved ineffectual ; some of our doctors judge nothing can cure our disease , but a general council or supream authority , to whose sentence we should all submit ; but this , besides that it is popish , to grant any human power for to oblige our consciences against our judgments in matters of religion , is but an imaginary remedy for a real evil : for , it 's not in the reformation as in popery ; in this there is a supream authority for to convene the pastors of divers kingdoms to a general council , in our reformation there is none ; popery believes it's councils and popes infallible ; and therefore they cannot but acquiesce , because an infallible sentence leaves no doubt of the truth ; but in the reformation , all councils and human authority are fallible ; and consequently their decisions may be doubted of , and we are never certain of the truth . others judge , the remedy of our disease can be no other , but pills of persecution penal laws , acts of parliament , ordinances of synods , forcing men to conformity ; but this has proved not only destructive to the peace of the church but has shockt the very foundation of our reformation : for if we must believe under severe penalties what the state and ecclesiastical authority will have us believe ; then scripture must be no more our rule of faith , but the state and church ; which tells me what i must believe ; and we must be deprived of the right and power of interpreting scripture and believing it in the sense we think to be true ; and yet our whole reformation is cemented and was first raised upon this holy liberty ; that every one should read scripture , interpret it ; and believe whatever he thought was the true sense of it ; without any compulsion or constraint for to believe either church ▪ state , vniversity , or doctors , if we did not judge by scripture his doctrine was true . if prudence had as great a share in our conduct , as passion , we should regulate our future by the effects of our past actions ; and if we will cast an eye back to the transactions of later years , we shall find this compulsion of mens consciences has produced but confusion in our church , and fatal disturbances in our state ; contrarywise , never did our reformation enjoy more peace , shin'd with more lustre , and held its course with more happiness , than when none was molested for his profession , but every one had liberty to believe and teach , what dectrine and sense each one thought to be the most conformable to scripture . consider the infancy of the reformation , when god raised luther to repair the ruines of the church ; how of a sudden it spred it self in germany , france , holland , poland , scotland , and england , and by what means ? was it not by taking away all constraint of mens consciences ( used then only in the popish church , ) our blessed reformers taking to themselves and giving to others a holy liberty for to teach and believe whatever they judged to be the doctrine and true sense of scripture , tho it should be against the received opinion of the councils , church , vniversities and doctors ? look into the reign of edward the vi. then did our reformation flourish in england ; and was miraculously propagated by the liberty of martin , bucer , cranmer , ochinus , peter martyr , and others in teaching calvinism , lutheranism , zuinglianism , by scripture as every one understood it : descend to the reign of queen mary , then the light of the gospel was ecclipsed , because the flock was again popishly compelled to believe , not what they judged by scripture to be true ; but what the pope and church judged was such : come down a step lower to queen elizabeth's time , then the flock recovering that holy liberty for to believe what each one thought was the doctrine of scripture , the reformation gained ground ; our several congregations lived peaceably ; for tho protestancy was establisht the religion of the land , others were not oppressed ; nor their liberty constrained by compulsions : step down a degree lower to king james his time ; the reformation held its course as prosperously as in queen elisabeth's time , because mens consciences were not oppressed ; all reformed brethren had full liberty to believe as they pleased ; the protestancy was the religion of the king : look down a stop lower to king charles the first 's reign ; his majesty carried with a godly zeal of restraining the diversity of opinions , begot by the liberty enjoyed in his predecessors times , would by new laws and ordinances force the flock to an vniformity of doctrine ; but our zealous brethren the presbyterians , impatient of any constraint in affairs of religion , and pleading for the evangelical liberty of our reformation , for to believe nothing , nor use any rites or ceremonies , but as each one judged by scripture to be convenient ; they covenanted against his majesty and bishops ; and the storm grew to that height , that both church and state were drown'd almost in the blood of our reformed brethren : lastly , look upon our realm as it is at present , the symptoms of disatisfactions which you may read and hear in coffee-houses , in publick and private conversations ; the sparkles of jealousies , which appear in our land ; the cabals against our government ; the animosity of divided parties ; the murmur and complaints of all ; what 's all this but the smoke of that hidden fire of zeal , wherewith protestants would force presbyterians by penal laws , to profess their tenets , presbyterians exclaim against protestancy as against popery ; quakers judge both to be limbs of satan ; anabaptists look on all three , as children of perdition ; and no congregation would give liberty for to profess any tenets but its own ; in so much that if you consider all well , each of our congregations , are as severe tyrants over our judgments and consciences , as popery was , and our reformation comes to be in effect but an exchange of one italian pope , for many english ones : for as in popery , we must submit our judgments to the pope and church of rome , or be esteemed putrid rotten members , and be shut out of heavens gates ; and suffer inquisitions , persecutions , excommunications , and what not , so among us , you must believe scripture as interpreted by the church of england , or you are condemned by them , you must believe scripture as interpreted by the presbyterians , or you are accursed by them you must believe as anabaptists do , or you are damn'd by them ; and not one congregation among us , but would root all the others out of the world , if it could ; and we do not fear that danger whereof st. paul , gal. 5.15 . warns us , if we bite and devour one another , let 's take heed , we be not consumed one of another ; giving us likewise a wholsom advice in the same place , how to prevent this evil ; stand fast in the liberty , wherewith christ has made us free , and be not intangled again with the yoke of bondage : the world did groan under this heavy yoke in popery ; wherein our rule of faith , was scripture as interpreted by the pope and church : scripture was kept from the hand of the flock : no man permitted to give or believe any interpretation or sense of it , but what the pope , church , and fathers did approve : our reason , our judgments , our consciences were slaves under this yoke , until that god raised our glorious and blessed reformers luther , calvin , zuinglius , beza and others : who took a holy liberty , and gave us all liberty for to read and interpret scripture : to believe no doctrine , but what we judged to be true scripture : to believe any sense of it , which we judged to be true , tho contrary to all the world : they took for their rule of faith scripture , and nothing else but scripture , as each one of them understood it ; this same rule of faith they left to us , and a holy freedom and liberty of our judgments and consciences , that any man of sound judgment may hold and believe whatever sense of it , he thinks to be true . this therefore is the scope and end of my following treatise ; that , whereas our rule of faith , as i will prove by the unanimous consent of our whole reformed church , is scripture or gods written word , as interpreted by each person of sound judgment ; that whereas by the principles of our reformation , no man is to be constrained to believe any doctrine against his judgment and conscience : ( otherwise why were not we left in popery ) it is impious , tyrannical , and quite against the spirit of the reformation , to force us by acts of parliament , decrees of synods , invectives , and persecutions of indiscreet brethren , to embrace this or that religion ; that every one ought to be permitted to believe what he pleases ; if you think bigamy to be the doctrine of scripture : if you think by scripture there is one nature , and four persons in god ; if you think transubstantiation to be true ; if you judge by god's words there 's neither purgatory nor hell ; finally whatever you think to be the true sense of scripture , you are bound as a true reformed child , to believe it ; that it is quite against the spirit of reformation to censure , oppose or blame the doctrine or tenets of any congregation , or of any doctor of the reformed church ; because that any doctrine professed by any christian-congregation , whatever ( the popish excepted ) or that ever was delivered by any man of good judgment of the reformation , since the beginning of it , until this day , is as truly and really the doctrine of the reformation , as the figurative presence or kings supremacy is . consequently protestants are deservedly to be check'd for persecuting quakers ; quakers , for murmuring against presbyterians : these for their invectives against anabaptists and socinians : all are very good ; and you may lawfully , according to the principles of our reformation , believe them , or deny them . this evangelical liberty of believing any thing , which we judg to be the sense of scripture , though all the rest of the world should judge it to be a blasphemy , is the most distinctive sign of the reformation from popery : for papists are the children of agar the slave ; they live in bondage and constraint to believe any doctrine , which the pope and church proposes to them ; and if a learned man , or vniversity should judge it to be contrary to scripture , he must submit his judgment to that of the pope , or be condemn'd as an heretick : in our reformation we are the children of sarah the free ; our rule of faith is scripture as each person of sound judgment in the church understands ; if we do not like the doctrine of the pope , church or council , we may gainsay them all , and hold our own sense of scripture : we enjoy the prerogative of rational creatures we are lead by our own reason , which god has given us for our conduct , and are not like beasts , constrained to follow that of others . we follow the rule given us by s. paul , rom. 14. he who eats , let him not despise him who does not eat ; and who does not eat , let him not despise him who does eat ; for god hath received him : that 's to say , he who believes , let him not check him who does not believe , as he does : and he who does not believe , let him not blame him who does believe : but let each one believe , or not belive as he thinks best in the lord : this holy liberty and freedom is the spirit of god , for , where the spirit of god is , there is liberty , 2 cor. 3. says the great apostle : the lord inspire to our parliament , that now sits upon a perfect and new settlement of government and religion , to follow the footsteps of our first renowned reformers : to enact that there may be no other rule of faith , but that which we received from our reformers , and which is laid down for us in the 39 , articles of the church of england : that is , scripture , as each one best understands it , without regarding the judgment , sense , or interpretation of any but the pure word of god , as we understand it : and to enact penal laws against any so bold and uncharitable as to censure or blame the tenets of any congregation , be it lutheranism , presbytery , arianism , judaism , or paganism : or any doctrine whatever , that any man of sound judgment thinks in his conscience to be the sense and doctrine of scripture . three things make me hope , that this treatise will be welcome to the well inclined and pious reader of our reformed church : first , that there is not one author quoted in this book , but our own doctors , learned and godly children of the reformation ; and this i observe , that my reader may know there 's not a jot of any doctrine here but what is of the reformati●n ; and also advertise our writers and school-men , how much they discredit our reform'd church , by making so much use of popish doctors and books in their writings ; as if we had not great and learned men of our own ; if we look into our bishops and ministers libraries , we shall meet with books either of confessedly papists , or strongly suspected of popery ; and you shall hardly meet in any of them , the works of luther , calvin , beza , or any of our own authors , if you do not meet some comedies , or romances : if you read our modern writers , you shall find their books to be stuft with arguments stolen from strapleton , peron , bellarmin , and other popish doctors , whereas they ought to take their doctrine from luther , calvin , and our other first reformers , apostles raised by gods heavenly spirit : oracles by whose mouths and pens he delivered the pure and orthodox doctrine of the gospel ; heavenly fountains , from which we ought to drink the doctrine of the reformation : therefore , i have made a particular study , for the comfort of my reader , not to profane this treatise with any quotation of any popish writers , none but our own doctors . secondly my reader will be pleased with this treatise , because i do not oblige him to believe the contents of it : if he mislikes any doctrine couched in this book , let him not believe it ; what i pretend is , to maintain his liberty for to believe , or not believe what he pleases , and that none can say black is his eye , for believing whatever he judges to be the sence of scripture ; let all others think of it what they will ; for our rule of faith , as i will prove , being scripture as each person understands it , who can be so bold as to check you for teaching and believing what you understand scripture to say ? some doctrines there are in this book delivered by luther , calvin , zuinglius , beza , and others ; which our church of england , and some others do call blasphemies , and scandalous tenets ; and their irreverence and arrogance it run so far , as to condemn those blessed men , for teaching such tenets , and say , that they swerved from the truth ; and had their frailties , insomuch , that many of us are ashamed to own those great men to have been our reformers and leaders : this is an impiety altogether insupportable , it cannot be suffered with patience , that such apostolical men , who were undeniably our first masters of the reformation , should be so vilified and abused : therefore i do prove , that there 's no doctrine delivered by them , but is to be esteemed and called the doctrine of the reformation : and can be according to the principles of the reformed church , believed and taught by any reformed child : for what is our rule of faith in the reformation , but scripture , as each person of sound judgment understands it ? consequently what is the doctrine of the reformation , but what any person of sound judgment understands to be of scripture ? whatever doctrine therefore luther , calvin , or others judged to be of scripture , how can you deny it to be the doctrine of the reformation , or blame them for teaching and believing it ? if you do not like ; the most , you can in justice do , is not to believe it : but you cannot justly say it 's not the doctrine of the reformation , because it 's scripture as understood by persons of good judgment : nor can you in justice blame them , or any other for believing it , if they like it : for must not we believe , what we judge in our consciences to be the doctrine of scripture ? lastly , my reader will be pleased with the sincerity and plain dealing of this treatise : as much as we are all offended by the dissimulation and double dealing of our modern writers , whose aim and scope in the books they give out , seem to be nothing else but to say somewhat , whereby they may be thought to be no papists , and nothing is less found in their writings , than the pure and orthodox doctrine of the reformation : and what is to be bemoaned , that you 'll hardly see in the houses or hands of the flock the works of luther , calvin , or our other first reformers , they are hid from us , to keep us in ignorance of the true reformed doctrine , and we see but bramhall , tillotson , taylor , stillingfleet , thorndike , and such others , whose doctrine is neither popery , nor of the reformation , but a new compound of both ; they do so mangle the questions controverted with their scholastical subtilities and distinctions , as if they were ashamed to own openly our tenets , and did endeavour to get the opinion of moderate sober men with the papists , by drawing as near as their interest can permit them to their doctrine . ask them if we be obliged to believe the doctrine and sense of scripture , delivered by a general council ; our first reformers resolved roundly that we are not : nay luther says expresly we are bound to gainsay , and work against the decrees of any council : but our modern doctors answer with a pretty distinction , there 's a a civil obligation , quoth one , but no obligation in conscience . there 's an obligation in conscience , says another , provided you do not believe they are infallible : you may believe they are infallible objectively or terminatively , says another , but not subjectively : they are infallible in fundamental points , says another , but not in inferior truths . another will come yet , and say they are absolutely infallible in all articles , and thus by little and little the papists gain ground against us , and the lustre of our reformation is clouded by the cowardliness , or insincerity , or hypocrisie of our modern teachers . 1 kings 18. how long halt ye between two opinions ? if the lord be god , follow him : but if baal , then follow him . luther , calvin , beza , and our other first reformers were raised by god to teach us the purity of the gospel : let us not be ashamed to follow their doctrine : to speak , preach , and believe as they did : therefore , i do propose the doctrine in this treatise in its native colours , that if you like it , you may believe it , and if any be so bold as to say , you believe false or scandalous doctrine , you must answer ; it 's the doctrine of the reformation , because it 's scripture as understood by persons of judgment , and the greatest oracles we had : and if you do not like it , you may deny it , but beware never to blame or check any other for believing it : this is the holy liberty of the gospel and of our primitive reformation . first dialogue . ismael . i have read your preface and principles , and methinks you drive to establish a new religion ; for that unlimited liberty , which you assert for to believe or not believe , whatever we please with a safe conscience , is not allowed by any of our reformed congregations ; and it were to be wish'd , you should rather stick to some one of the congregations now established , than to erect a new one , for we have but too many already . isaac . the lord forbid i should think or speak otherwise than as becometh a true child of the reformation : if you will oblige me to believe scripture as interpreted by the lutheran church ( the like i say of any other congregation ) and deny the tenets of all others , what difference betwixt me and a papist in the election of my religion ? for the papists religion must be no other , but scripture as interpreted by the pope and councils ; my religion must be scripture as interpreted by the lutheran church , and no other ; my judgment and conscience therefore is as much constrained as that of the papist and our separation from popery will come to be but an exchange of one slavery for another ; in that , our judgments and counsciences were slaves to the pope and councils ; in this , we are slaves to the lutheran church : we became a reformation by shaking off the yoke of popery from our judgments , and leaving them free for to believe scripture as with the assistance of gods spirit , each one best understands it ; and if we will continue a reformation , we must not submit again our judgments to any other , but retain that blessed liberty we recovered for to believe the tenets of any congregation . i confess this liberty is not allowed by any one particular congregation , as you observe ; out you must also grant me , that it 's allowed and taken by the whole body of the reformation , for in this whole body , as it comprehends protestants , lutherans , presbyterians , &c. one congregation believes what the other denies , and in any of them a man may live with a safe conscience ( which you will not deny ; ) therefore any man has full liberty for to believe or deny with a safe conscience the tenets of any congregation : hence it follows , ( and to my grief i speak it , ) that no particular congregation , be it of england , france or germany , has the true spirit of the reformation , in doting so much upon their particular tenets , as to think they cannot be as well denied , as believed ; and in looking upon them with so passionate eyes , as to censure check and force others to believe them : you shall see by this discourse , that the true spirit of the reformation is not in any one particular congregation separately taken from the rest ; for each particular congregation constrains as much as it can , all people to believe its own tenets : protestancy would have us all to be protestants , and would root lutherans out of the world as well as popery ; lutherans would , if they could , draw all to their own net ; presbytery esteems it self to be the best of all , and would crush protestancy if it could : this then is the spirit of each particular congregation , a limiting , confining spirit to some particular tenets , with an exclusion of all others ; but look on the whole body of our reformation , as it includes all reformed congregations distinct from popery ; there is a holy extension of spirit and liberty for to be either lutherans , presbyterians , protestants , and any thing but popery ; and whatever any congregation may say of another , but all unanimously agree that the spirit of the lord is in the whole body of the reformation ; since therefore that in this whole body , there is a latitude and liberty for to profess divers and opposite tenets , and that each tenet is believed by one , and denied by others ; we must grant that this holy liberty for to believe or deny any tenets we please , is the true spirit of our holy reformation . it 's not therefore to be wish'd , as you do , that i should stick to any one particular congregation or tenet ; for such a restriction is meer popery ; and your bemoaning the multiplicity of our congregation , is profane and popish : no , it 's a blessing of the lord upon our reformation , for which we shall never sufficiently thank him , that we see it divided into so many godly branches . in the house of my father , said christ , there are many mansions , john 14.2 . ismael . by your discourse you seem to allow that we may with a safe conscience change religions as often as we please , and be to day a protestant , to morrow a lutheran , next day a presbyterian , and so run over all . isaac . i know you will be startl'd at my answer , for i am not ignorant that all men apprehended it to be absurd to change and run over so many religions ; but truth must be declared , though it may seem a scandal to the jews , and a folly to the gentiles : it s therefore the doctrine of the reformation that we may with a safe conscience be to day protestants , to morrow lutherans ; in france hugonots , in hungary antitrinitarians , in poland socinians ; and in london of any religion but popery . ismael . for shame you foully impose upon the reformation ; there 's not any congregation that teaches such a scandalous and absurd doctrine . isaac . by your favour , i love the reformation as the apple of my eye , and will never yield to any in my zeal for its honour and doctrine ; i am so far from imposing upon it , that i will evidence your error in denying this to be its doctrine ; and it will appear that whoever will deny it to be very lawful to change religions as time and occasion requires , must renounce the best and fundamental principles of our reformation , and must impiously condemn the practice of our first reformers . ismael . how will you make it out that this doctrine is grounded upon the the fundamental principles of our reformation ; whereas there is not one congregation of ours , but abhors it ? isaac . sir , you may well perceive by the tenor of my discourse , that i am piously and charitably jealous with each particular congregation , and that my drift is to shew that each of them , none excepted , swerves from and transgresses against the true spirit and solid principles of the reformation , as will further appear in this discourse . it 's uncontestedly true that the rule of faith of the reformation is scripture , as the humble of heart , assisted with the spirit of the lord , understand it ; for lutherans will never admit their rule of faith to be scripture , as interpreted by the church of england , but as interpreted by themselves ; nor will england admit scripture to be the rule of faith , as it is interpreted by the presbyterians , but as interpreted by the church of england : so that the doctrine of each congregation is but scripture , as interpreted by them , and whereas all these congregations joyntly compose the whole body of the reformation , and each congregation is truly a member of the reformation the doctrine of the reformation comes to be scripture , as each congregation , and person of sound judgment in the reformation , ( says the church of england in her 39 articles ) interprets it . this being an uncontrouled truth , what man of ever so sound judgment , but may read to day scripture , as interpreted by the lutheran church , and judge in his conscience that interpretation and doctrine to be true ; consequently he may with a safe conscience profess that religion : soon after he may meet calvin's books , and charm'd with the admirable strength of his reasons and glosses upon scripture , he may judge in his conscience , he is to be preferr'd before luther , and so may lawfully forsake lutheranism for calvinism ; then again he hits upon scripture as interpreted by the church of england , whose doctrine ravishes him with that decency of ceremonies , that majesty of her liturgy , that harmony of her hierarchy , he is convinc'd it's better than calvinism , and embraces it : then again , he reads the works of arius , and convinc'd by the energy of his arguments and texts of scripture produced by him , may alter his judgment , and become an arian ▪ wherein can you say does this man transgres●…against the doctrine or principles of the reformation ? does he forsake the reformation , because he forsakes lutherism for calvinism ? no sure ; for calvinism is as much of the reformation as the other : is not protestancy as much the doctrine of the reformation as presbytery ? tho' he changes therefore one for the other , he still holds the doctrine of the reformation : is not the doctrine of the reformation scripture , not as protestants only or presbyterians only interpret it , but as any congregation , or man of sound judgment holds it ? it is therefore evident that according to the doctrine and principles of the reformation , he may with a safe conscience change religions , and be to day of one , to morrow of another , until he runs all over . point me out any congregation ( the obstinate papists excepted , ) who will dare say , i cannot live with a safe conscience in any other congregation but in it self ; all other congregations will laught at it ; why then may not i lawfully forsake any congregation , and pass to another ? and be in england a protestant , in germany a lutheran , in hungary an antitrinitarian or socinian . ismael . it 's against the grain of mans reason to believe that we can with a safe conscience change religions , as you say ; if you be a protestant , and you judge it to be the true religion , you are bound to stick to it , and never to change it . isaac . if i did discourse with a papist , i would not wonder he should say it 's against the grain of mans reason to believe it lawful ; but i admire that a child of the reformation , be he of what congregation he will , should be so ignorant of his principles , as to say a man cannot change religions when he pleases : nor do i undertake to prove against the papist , that this is lawful but i undertake to prove it lawful against any reformed child , or force him to deny the principles of the reformation . is it against reason that a man may read to day scripture , and the lutherans interpretation upon it , and like it very well ; and that he should in this case embrace that religion ? is it against the grain of mans reason that this same man should next year afterwards hit upon calvin's works upon scripture , and after better consideration , think his doctrine to surpass that of luther ; and could not he then ( being obliged to chuse the best , ) forsake lutheranism and stick to calvinism ? and is it against mans reason that he in following years may meet other books of arians , socinians , &c. and do the like ? have not we many examples of this in our best and most renowned reformers ? did not ochinus that great light ( says b. bale ) in whose presence england was happy , reading scripture , judge the reforformation to be better than popery , and of a capuchin fryar became a reformed , after some years reading scripture , he judged judaism to be better than the reformation , and became a jew : did not martin bucer , one of our first reformers of england , and composers of our liturgy , reading scripture judge lutheranism to be better than popery , and of a dominican fryar , became a lutheran ? soon after reading scripture , he judged zuinglianism to be better than lutheranism , and became a zuinglian ; not long after he became a lutheran again as he confesses a and forsook lutheranism the second time , and returned again to zuinglianism , as sklusser says , ( b ) did not cranmer one of our first reformers also of england , and composers of the 39. articles , a wise and religious man profess popery in henry the viii's time , and compose a book in defence of real presence ; then in edward the vi's time upon better consideration he professed zuinglianism , and writ a book against real presence ; then again in queen mary's reign being sentenc'd to death , he declared for popery , but seeing his recantation would not preserve his life , he renounced popery and died a zuinglian . i could tire your patience in reading , and mind in relating the number of our prime and most renowned , as well first reformers . as learned doctors , who without any scruple , changed several times their religions : nor in the principles of our reformation ought they to be blamed : for whereas our rule of faith is scripture as with the assistance of gods spirit we understand it , who doubts but we may to day judge sincerely luther's sense of it to be true , to morrow we may read with more attention and judge arius his sense to be true ; next day that of calvin , and so of the rest : i do not think but that we have in england many abettors of this doctrine : alas ! how many bishops , deans and rich parsons do we know , and have we known who were zealous presbyterians , and declared enemies of protestancy in our gracious soveraign's exile ; and no sooner was he restored , and had bishopricks and ecclesiastical dignities to be given , but they became stiff protestants . observe the difference betwixt the papists and us , if of a papist you become of any other congregation , the popish church excommunicates you , thou art lookt upon as an heretick , and apostate ; a stray'd sheep ; they will not admit you to their communion , or liturgy ; nay , could they well avoid you , they would never admit you to their company ; and why ? because they are fondly perswaded their own is the only true religion , and all others to be synagogues of satan ; and if any of us will become a papist , he must first abjure his former profession : but if of a protestant , you should become a presbyterian , a lutheran , quaker , or of any other of our societies , you are never looked upon to be a jot the worse for it ; we are not a whit scandalized at such changes , which we daily see ; and it is an unspeakable blessing , with what accord , unity and charity , you may see at our liturgy and communion , the protestant , presbyterian , anabaptist , socinian and hugonot , all praising the lord in one congregation in our church , none bid out of the church , none excommunicated , no previous abjuration required of their former tenets ; and there 's nothing more frequent among us than to go to the protestant liturgy in the morning , in the evening to the prebyterian , especially if our interest or convenience requires it : can there be a more convincing proof that we esteem it all alike what religion and tenets we profess ? let a lutheran go to france ; alas ! he will never stick to go to the hugonots meeting and service ; let a protestant go to germany , he will go as cheerfully to the lutheran church , as in england to the protestant : let a hugonot or presbyterian go to hungary , or poland , he is welcome to the antitrinitarians , and socinians ; and when any of them returns home he will be as before . ismael . but can you prove this doctrine by the testimony of any of our synods ? did any teach that we may with a safe conscience change our religion as you say ? isaac . yes , i can : the synod of charenton in france , held about the year 1634 expresly says , that for your salvation it 's all alike whether you be a calvinist , lutheran , or of any other congregation of the reformed ; because , says this venerable synod , they all agree in fundamental points , and the lutherans have nothing of superstition or idolatry in their manner of divine worship . change then as often as you list ; be a lutheran , be a presbyterian , be an anabaptist ; by the mouth of this synod you are assured you 'll never miss to hit right . and i pray , can any synod of our times have more authority in point of doctrine then luther our first reformer , a man extraordinarily raised by god , ( says the synod of charenton , ) and replenisht with his spirit for to repair the ruins of his church ? he teaches c the elevation of the sacrament is idolatry , yet he did practise it , and commanded it should be practised in the church of wittemberg to spite the devil carolstadius : giving you to understand that for just reasons , you may teach now one religion , now another . zuinglius also , whose vertue and learning is known to the world , says , d that god inspired him to preach what doctrin was suitable to the times ; which as it often changes , you may often change your doctrin : and consider you if it be not therefore that christ our lord says his yoke is easie , and his burden is light , ( that is religion ) because we can withdraw our necks from it , as time and just reasons requires . ismael . could you give me any synod of the church of england which delivers this doctrin , you would go near hand to convince me ; for , that some particular doctors should have taught or practised it , does not prove it to be the doctrine of the reformation . isaac . and what a greater authority has a synod of england , for to prove a doctrin to be of the reformation , than a synod of france which i have produced ? or than luther and zuinglius our first reformers , inspired by god , to teach us the purity of the gospel ? was it not from luther and zuinglius , that england received the doctrin of the reformation ? and if england be so bold as to say they erred in this , what assurance can we have , but that they erred in the rest ? but since nothing will please you but a synod of england , you shall have not one , but many . can there be any synod in england of so great authority as our wise and prudent parliaments ? read our chronicles and you 'll find , that in a few years time , they changed and established different religions by publick acts of parliament : in henry the viii 's reign they voted for popery , and made acts and statutes against the reformation ; in edward the vi 's time they banisht popery and voted for zuinglianism ; in queen mary's they pull'd down this , and set up popery again ; in queen elizabeth's , they decryed this , and set up not zuinglianism , but protestancy ; in the midst of her reign , they polisht this , and added some new perfections to it ; in king james and succeeding kings times protestancy is of a different stamp from that of queen elizabeth's : hear dove in his exhort . to the english recusants , an. 1603. pag. 31. henry the 8. had his liturgy which was very good : edward the 6. condemned it , and brought in another composed by peter martyr and bucer : in elizabeth 's time , that was condemned , and another approved ; and in the middle of her reign , her liturgy was also misliked , and a new one introduced ; we are so wanton that nothing will content us but novelties . ismael . dove does not commend this doctrin , for he calls that frequent exchange of religion wantonness , and love of novelty . isaac . it 's no great matter what he says of it ; my drift is but to convince you that this is the doctrine , and practice of the best member of our reformation ; even of england , and if you be convinc'd it 's the doctrine of the reformation , you cannot deny but that it is good doctrine . if dove calls it wantonness , s. paul , ephes . 4.22 . coloss . 3.9 . and rom. 6.6 . commends it , and exhorts us to put off the old man with its deeds , ( that 's popery with its ceremonies , ) and put on the new man , ( that 's the reformation ) where there 's neither greek nor jew , circumcision , nor vncircumcision , barbarian , or scythian , bound or free , but christ is all , and in all : that 's to say ; where there 's no distinction of protestants or presbyterians , socinians , or arians ; it 's all one which religion you profess . ismael . but is there no tenet of religion which we are all indispensably obliged to hold ? isaac . yes there is , and no more but one : we are bound to have faith in jesus christ , the son of god , and the saviour of the world. this is the substance of christian religion ; be an arian , be a presbyterian a socinian or what you please , be also plung'd to your ears in wickedness of life , and manners , so you have faith in jesus christ , son of god , and redeemer of the world , and live in charity , you will be a member of the true church , and be saved . do not imagine this is any new doctrine invented by me ; search the vulgar sort of our reformed brethren , you shall get thousands of this opinion in our realm ; search the books of our learned doctors , you shall find it in them also . doctor morton , in his much applauded book , dedicated to queen elizabeth , for which he deserved a bishoprick , e says : the arian church is to be esteemed a true church , because they hold the true substance of christian religion , which is faith in jesus christ , son of god , and redeemer of the world : and again in the same place . sect. 4. whose title , is , hereticks are members of the church , he says , whosoever believes in jesus christ , though by wickedness of life , or heresie in doctrine , they should err in doctrine , they are still true members of the church . therefore our learned f fox , g doctor field , and illiricus , say the greek church , notwithstanding their error in denying the procession of the holy ghost from the son , are holy members of the true church , because they have faith in jesus christ . ismael . sure you will not say this doctrine is of the reformation or can be safely believed ? isaac . i do admire how you can doubt of it , and that it may be believed : for what is the doctrine of the reformation but as we have said in our principles , scripture as interpreted by any man of sound judgment in the church ? and were not doctor morton , fox , field , and illiricus , men of sound judgment , eminent learning and godliness ? if therefore this be scripture as interpreted by them , how can you deny it to be the doctrine of the reformation ? ismael . and what jesus christ are we obliged to believe in ? for jesus christ , as believed by the arians , socinians , luther and calvin , is far different from jesus christ , as commonly believed by the protestants , and popish church ; we believe in jesus christ the son of god , of one and the same substance and nature with the father ; they believe in a jesus christ son of god , but of a distinct and different nature and substance of the father . isaac . pish ! that 's but a nicety ; believe what you please , and what you understand by scripture to be true , and have charity . ismael . i confess you have puzled , but yet not wholly convinced me ; were i but perswaded that what you have discoursed , is truly the doctrin of the reformation , i would cheerfully embrace it , and i will be better informed by your self , but not tire your patience : we will meet again and pursue our discourse upon this subject . second dialogue . ismael . reflecting in my sollitude upon your last discourse , i find it bottom'd upon a false principle , for you suppose that whatever doctrin is of luther , calvin , or any of your learned doctors , synods , parliaments , or congregations , is the doctrin of the reformation , and may without any more proof or scruple , be believed by any reformed child ; who but sees this is ridiculous , to fasten the doctrin and absurd opinions of each particular doctor , or congregation upon the whole body ? this is the uncharitable and unreasonable art of the papists who keep a great coil , with some exorbitant opinions of luther and calvin , and would perswade their proselites , they are the tenets of the reformation ; whereas the reformation disclaims those opinions as much as the pope does : and they do not poor people observe how many absurd and scandalous doctrines we meet in their casuists and divines , which when we reproach them with , they answer , it 's not the doctrin of their church , but of some particular doctors ; as if we might not with as much justice as they , answer the same . isaac . your reflection is good , and my discourse will fall to the ground , if i do not prove that principle , which will be no hard task : let us imagine we are here a full synod of protestants , presbyterians , hugonots , lutherans , antitrinitarians , anabaptists , quakers , and of all and each of our congregations ; our reformation is not any of these congregations , with an exclusion of the rest , but all of them joyntly ; for whatsoever congregation would say it self alone is the reformation , and no other , would be hiss'd at by the rest ; and justly , because that our reformation imports two points essentially . first , a profession of christianity , according to the rule of the word of god , and a detestation or abjuration of popish errors ; and none of these congregations but does both . ismael . i know some of these , pharisee-like , despise others , and look upon them not as reformed , but as putrid members ; but the lord forbid i should be so void of charity ; i see no just chalenge any can have to the title of reformation , which all have not . isaac . let us ask this synod by what rule of faith does the reformation walk ? what must a man believe for to be a true reformed ? protestants will say , that scripture and apostolical tradition ; but protestants say of papists and presbytarians and anabaptists say of protestants , that many humane inventions are obtruded upon us as apostolical traditions : that we have no way , to discern the one from the other , and consequently tradition , as being an unknown thing unto us , cannot be our rule ; others will say , that scripture , and the indubitable consequences out of it , is our rule , all will grant this ; but then enters the controversy , if the consequences of lutherans be such , and if the consequences of presbyterians be indubitable out of scripture , and each congregation will say , that their peculiar tenets are indubitable consequences out of scripture , and the rest must allow it to be true , or deny such a congregation to be of the reformation ; others will say that scripture , and the four first general councils with the apostles , and athanasius's creed are our rule of faith ; but most of the assembly will no more admit the four first , than the subsequent councils , nor athanasius's creed , more than that of trent , nor will the quakers , socinians , and others value the apostles creed . but there is none of all the assembly , who will not admit scripture , that 's the pure written word of god , to be a sacred and full rule of faith , because it 's replenished with divine light , and all heavenly instruction necessary for our salvation : and such as add , as a part of our rule of faith , the apostles or athanasius's creed , or the four first general councils , they will confess that all they contain , is expressed in gods written word , and are but a plainer , or more distinct expression or declaration of the contents of scripture . ismael . truly i must grant you this , that i have been often present at several discourses of protestants with papists , and never could i hear a protestant make councils , tradition , or any thing else , the test of their discourse , but only scripture ; not but that i could hear them say and pretend in their discourses , that apostolical tradition , and the four first councils were for them against popery ; but still their main strength and ultimate refuge was scripture ; for whenever they harp upon that string of tradition and councels , the papists are visibly too hard for them and then they run to scripture , than which there is no plus ultra . i have been also often at several discourses betwixt protestant , presbyterians , and our brethren of other congregations , i have observed that the protestant , for to defend his liturgy , rights and ceremonies of the church of england , and her episcopacy against the others could never defend himself by scripture alone , and plac'd his main strength against them in tradition , primitive councils , and ancient fathers , all which the other rejected and reproached the protestant with popery , for making use of that weapon ; that if they would stick to those principles as their rule of faith , they must admit many tenets of popery , which they disavow , that nothing but scripture is a sufficient warrant and rule of faith : and i find by all i could ever well understand , that 's the general apprehension , and belief of all the reformation , that scripture abundantly contains all we are obliged to believe ; and is our sole and only rule of faith ; and that our recourse to tradition , councils , fathers , &c. are but shifts of some of our doctors , who being non-plust in their particular engagements , and sophistries , patch the incoherency of their discourses with these rags of popery . isaac . i commend your ingenuity , but not that heat which transports you to check our doctors , for their glosses and particular doctrines upon scripture , which , as the manna relished of all sorts of victuals , which the eater fancied , admits several sences according to the different spirits , and measure of light that god gives to the reader , and it is undoubtedly the spirit of the reformation to follow what sense of it he likes best , and not to check others following this or that as they please : lutherans , protestants , presbyterians , &c. have all for their rule of faith , scripture , which each of them interprets in a different sense ; luther for the real , [ protestants for the figurative ] presence ; protestants for episcopacy ; presbyterians against it , and so of others : and tho' each esteems his own sence to be the best , yet none is so bold as to say that others may not be saved in their own sence of it , or deny them to be true children of the reformation ; nay , that venerable synod of charenton , as i quoted above , has declared , that the lutherans , tho' opposite to them in their chief tenets , are their beloved brethren , and have nothing idolatrous or superstitious in their manner of divine worship : the fundamental reason of all this is , that our rule of faith , is but scripture , as each person of sound judgment understands it . ismael . i grant all your discourse as to this particular ; for it 's certain , lutherans will not admit scripture as interpreted by pretestants , but as interpreted by themselves ; and so of each other congregation . isaac . if you admit our rule is scripture , as each understands it ; then you must grant that our doctrine of the reformation , is whatever doctrine each person of sound judgment understands to be of scripture ; and from this , it appears plainly that my principle whereat you boggl'd is true ; that whatever doctrine is professed by any of our congregations , synods , parliaments , doctors , or particular doctor of our reformation is to be truly reputed and esteemed the doctrine of our reformation ; which principle being true , my discourse of yesterday is undeniable , that you may change religion as often as you please , and remain still a true reformed child . ismael . but you have said , that not only the doctrine of each congregation and synod , is the doctrine of the reformation : but also whatever any one particular doctor teaches , and this seems to be very absurd . isaac . it 's not so absurd , as it 's true ; i 'll prove by the principles of our reformed church , by the testimonies of our most learned and best doctors and reformers , and by reason and experience , that the doctrine of any particular doctor among us , has as much right to be called and esteemed the doctrine of the reformation , as protestancy , presbytery , or lutheranism , for what is lutheranism , but the judgment of luther a particular doctor against the whole church of rome ? what is calvanism , but what calvin a particular doctor judged to be the sence of scripture against that same church ? what is quakerism , but honest naylor's godly and pious sentiments upon scripture ? it 's undeniably the principle of our reformed church , that our rule of faith is scripture as interpreted , not only by synods or congregations , but by any person of sound judgment in the church . no congregation or synod is to us a rule of faith , because all are ●…llible ; but gods written word , as each one understands it ; and if we do not like the sence of it delivered by any council , synod , or congregation , we may safely deny it . therefore our great calvin , a says , and proves with great energy of scripture and reason , that we are not obliged to the decisions and doctrine of any council , synod , or congregation , if after having examined scripture , we do find their interpretation and sense of it , is conformable to the word of god. let synods and congregations say what they will , if any particular doctor thinks his own private sence of it to be better , he may stick to it against them all , and be a good true child of the reformation ; as arminius in holland did withstand the synods of dordrecht and delfe ; as luther and calvin did against rome . i will be free , says our unparallel'd proto-apostle luther , b i will not submit my self to the authority of councils , church , doctors , vniversities , or fathers , but will teach and preach whatever i think to be true . did ever any apostle speak with more courage ? and the blessed man acted with no less ; he knew full well the whole stream of antiquity , doctors , fathers and councils were against him , as he confesses himself , and did not care a rush for them all : lay aside , says he , call arms of orthodox antiquity , of schools of divinity , authority of fathers , councils , popes , and consent of ages ; we receive nothing but scripture ; but so that we must have the authority of interpreting it . nor was it only luther and calvin spoke thus , but all our first blessed reformers ; and why ? because our rule of faith is scripture , not as interpreted by the church of england , ( france will not admit it , ) nor as interpreted by the quakers , ( the anabaptists , and independants will not hear it ) nor as interpreted by luther , ( calvin rejects it ) nor as interprèted by calvin , ( thorndike and bramhall will not yield to it , ) nor will stillingfleet stand to their interpretation ; nor others to that of stillingfleet . finally our rule of faith is scripture , not as interpreted by any , but as each congregation , synod , particular doctor , or man of sound judgment interprets it , and consequently whatever doctrine any man of sound judgment judges to be of scripture , is to be esteem'd the doctrine of the reformation ; and you may safely believe it , if you like it , and remain still as truly a reformed child , as the proudest protestant of england . ismael . can you prove that our rule of faith is scripture , as any particular doctor or person of sound judgment understands it ? isaac . behold how convincingly : first we have heard luther , quoted but now , say , we receive nothing but scripture , but so as that we must have the authority for to interpret it : hear him again ; d the governours and pastors have power to teach , but the sheep must give their judgment , whether they propose the voice of christ , or of strangers . and again , e christ has taken from the bishops , councils , and pastors , the right of judging of doctrine ; and given it to all christians in general ; and the rule is scripture as each one will think fit to interpret it . and consequently to this , we have heard him say above , i will be free and will not submit to doctors , councils or pastors but will teach whatever i think to be true . barlow , f the apostles have given to each particular , the right and power of interpreting , and judging by his inward spirit what is true ; it is needless that either man , or angel , pope , or council , should instruct you , the spirit working in the heart and scripture are to each particular person most assured interpreters . blison , bishop of winchester , says the same , g the people must be discerners and judges of what is taught . our religion has no other rule of faith ( says our french reformation by the mouth of du moulin , h drelincourt , and the holy synod of charenton , but the written word of god , as interpreted by us . lastly , says the church of england . we have no other rule of faith , but scripture as each person of sound judgment in the church understands it , and what is proved by it : and again in the catholick doctrine of the church of england , pag. 103. which is but an exposition of 39 articles . our rule of faith is but scripture , as each person of sound judgment in the church understands it : authority is given to the church , and to each person of sound judgment in it , to judge in controversies of faith , and this is not the the private judgment of our church , but also of our brethren of foreign countries . ismael . i confess , not only these , but many other doctors abet your discourse , and the general vogue of our reformation , is for scripture as each one understands it ; but alas ! you see well , that we can never settle any religion , or church , by such a rule of faith. isaac . you can never settle any but this , that every man may without let or hinderance , believe what be pleases ; and why should not this be a good religion ? if scripture as each one understands it be not our rule of faith ; if we must be constrained to believe scripture not as we understand it , but as it is understood by this or that congregation ; what difference betwixt us and papists ? they must believe scripture as interpreted by the pope and councils ; have ever so much light from god , be ever so wise and witty , you must depose your own judgment , and submit to that of the pope , council , and popish church : to this pass we are come also ; we must believe the kings supremacy , episcopacy , figurative presence , tho perhaps we do not judge by scripture it to be true doctrine ; we are constrained by penal laws , and and acts of parliament to believe them , as papists by their inquisition ; and why ? because the church of england understands by scripture , it 's true ; and if you reply you do not interpret scripture so , you 'll not be heard ; you must submit and believe against your judgment ; and what 's this but plain popish tyranny over mens consciences ? did luther and calvin forsake the pope and councils , for to submit their judgments to any other ? no , but to follow scripture as each one of them understood it : and tho' luther was a man raised by god , and replenish'd with his spirit to repair the ruins of the church , yet calvin did no more submit to him , than luther did to the pope ; nor did zuinglius submit to calvin , but followed his own sense of scripture , nor did oeclampadius submit to zuinglius ; but every one searched the scripture , believed and taught what they thought to be true and thus we became a reformation of popery ; if therefore we will continue a reformation , and walk by the spirit of our blessed reformers ; we must not be constrained to believe any mans sense of scripture . we must believe whatever we think to be true , and have no other rule of faith but scripture , as each one understands it . ismael . and what then ? what do you infer from this discourse ? isaac . this consequence , that whereas no true child of the reformation , be he of what congregation he will , can justly deny our rule of faith to be scripture , as any person of sound judgment interprets it ; it follows unavoidably that the doctrine of the reformation is , whatever any person of judgment interprets to be the true sense of scripture , and whatever luther , calvin , beza , or any other of sound judgment in the reformation , since its first rise until this day , taught to be the true sence of scripture , is to be called and esteemed the doctrine of the reformation , tho' to this or that congregation , it may seem to be wicked and scandalous doctrine . and now let me answer to an objection you made against this principle in our entrance to this discourse : you objected that many popish doctors and casuists , delivered scandalous and base doctrines , which the papists will not admit to be the doctrin of their church , tho' delivered by popish doctors ; and thence you pretended , that the particular sentiments of private doctors of the reformation are not to be called the doctrin of our church . but be pleased to observe the difference betwixt popery and our reformation the rule of , faith in popery is scripture , as interpreted by the pope and council , or their church ; they will admit no other ; consequently no doctrin is to be called popery , but what is judged by the pope and his church , or council , to be the sense of scripture ; and if any doctor or university holds any sense contrary to theirs , it is to be called the doctrin of that particular person and not the doctrin of the popish church , because their rule of faith is not scripture , as interpreted by their pope and council . but whereas our rule of faith in the reformation is scripture , as each person of sound judgment interprets it ; whatever doctrin , or sense , is said by any man to be of scripture , is justly to be called the doctrine of the reformation : for example , melancthon , a man of sound judgmen , great learning , and of an upright conscience , taught bigamy to be the doctrine of scripture ; beza taught the lords supper might be administer'd a in any kind of victuals , as well as in bread and wine : calvin taught that christ despaired on the cross , and suffer'd the pains of hell after his death : why then , let all the bishops and universities of england condemn this doctrine ; let all the synods of france and germany decry it , the doctrine will be still of the reformation , because it 's scripture as interpreted by men of sound judgment . ismael . the heat of your discourse has tired you , and my memory is sufficiently loaden with what you have said ; let me digest it in my private retirement and we will meet again . isaac . content , carry with you these three points which i have proved convincingly ; first , our rule of faith is scripture , not as interpreted by this or that , but by any man of sound judgment ; secondly , it follows hence that the doctrine of the reformation must be , and ought to be called whatever any man of sound judgment says is the sense of scripture : thirdly , it follows we may change religions as often as we please . third dialogue . ismael . i remember well the summary of your last discourse given me in three points , and i find the second to be absurd and repugnant to reason : you 'll never perswade it , tho' you pleaded for it with great energy ; what if a silly woman , cobler , or other tradesmen , read scripture , and give their sense of it , that , forsooth , must be called the doctrine of the reformation ? and it shall be lawful for them to believe it , against the doctrine of the whole church . isaac . do not limit gods infinite goodness , by measuring his mercies towards his creatures with your narrow apprehensions : take notice , he says , he has chosen the weak and contemptible of the world for to confound the strong ones : * i confess unto you father , that you have hid these things from the wise and prudent , and hast revealed them to the little ones . and there he choose poor simple fishermen to his apostles : i know it 's the practice of papists , and from them your church of england borrows it , to despise the ministery of women , tradesmen , and illiterate people , in preaching , teaching , and interpreting scripture ; but st. paul tells us , ** the word of god is not bound ; that 's to say , is not entail'd on the learned , rich , or great ones ; the ‖ wind bloweth where it listeth : our bishops and ministers would make a monopoly of the word of god , and have themselves to be the only retailers of it ; for to have some plausible title for to enjoy great rents , and shear the flock . but we have seen , as well among the quakers , as in other congregations , silly women and tradesmen , replenish'd with gods spirit , preach and expound the great mysteries of our religion with as much of good success and edification of the auditory , a●… any penny-book man in england . ismael . it seems you approve the ministry o● women and silly tradesmen , for preaching and teaching the flock ; and if so , you 'll overthrow our hierarchy of bishops and ministers . isaac . it matters not so much for you to know what i approve or condemn ; but to know what the doctrine of the reformation is ; it 's this ; that none can teach , preach , administer sacraments , or exercise , ecclesiastical function , if he be not in holy orders , bishop , minister , or deacon ; for the church of england teache● it , and you may believe it if you please . you may also deny it and say , any woman or tradesman has as much power for to preach and administer the sacraments , as the richest bishop in england : this also is the doctrine of the reformation as well as the former , because quakers , presbyterians , brownists , anabaptists , &c. believe and teach it , and they are men of as sound judgments , and as good reformers as protestants ; nay , the most learned of our reformers , teach and commend the power of women for to exercise spiritual functions , and administer the sacraments : a saumaise , peter martyr , and b zuinglius , expresly defend the priesthood as well of women as of men : and c luther proves it efficaciously ; the first office of a priest says he , is to preach ; this is common to all , even women ; the the second is to baptize : which is also common to women ; the third is to consecrate their bread and wine , and this also is common to all as well as to men : and in the absence of a priest , a woman may absolve from sins as well as the pope , because the words of christ , whatever ye shall untye on earth , shall be untyed in heaven , were said to all christians . and when so eminent men had not said it , reason and scripture convinces it ; reason , because that our rule of faith being scripture as each person of sound judgment understands it , many women undoubtedly are of sound judgment , and why should not their interpretation of scripture pass for the doctrine of the reformation , as well as that of our bishops and ministers ? scripture , because we read , the samaritan woman was the first who preached the messias to the city of samaria , and christ commanded mary magdalen to go to preach his resurrection to his disciples ; and we know by our cronicles , that our glorious queen elizabeth of blessed memory , did not only govern the state , but was a great apostoless in church affairs . ismael . to what purpose then , have we bishops and ministers , who enjoy so vast revenues , if any man or woman can preach and administer the sacraments as well as they ? isaac . you may believe , bishops and ministers are very needful for the service of the church ; for they being commonly learned witty men , and having wives , they come to instruct their wives so well , that the good women come in a short time to be as learned as their husbands , and as nimble and quick in the ecclesiastical ministeries , as they if they were permitted to exercise them ; as some authors of credit relate unto us , that a gentleman of constance , writ to his friend in a village , ( about three leagues distant from that city , ) whose inhabitants were for the most part of our lutheran reformation ; the good pastor exhorted his flock to prepare for easter communion , that none should presume to come to the holy table , but should first confess and receive absolution of his sins : easter holy days being come , such a multitude flock'd to confession , that the pastor could not satisfie the devotion of so great a croud ; he called his wife to help him , for to hear confessions , and give absolutions , in which ministery the good lady did labour with great satisfaction of the penitents ; but neither the pastor , nor his vertuous consort being able to dispatch so great a multitude , he called his maid servant , who did work in the holy ministery with as much expedition as her master . but for all this , the church of scotland , france , and all england ( protestants excepted , ) will tell you that bishops and ministers are not needful , nay that they are very prejudicious to the reformation and state ; to the reformation , because this hierarchy with the bishops court , surplices , corner caps , and other trumperies , puts the flock in mind of popery , whereof it 's a perfect resemblance ; and whilst the papists see our change from them , comes to be almost no more but to substitute new priests and bishops in their own place for to manage more conscienciously the rents and revenues which they profanely abused , and that those rents and revenues are still in the hands of an ecclesiastical hierarchy , they live in hopes of recovering them some day , when our bishops and ministers will come to be as bad stewards of them as they were , and that the flock will be weary of them and call back the antient possessors : it 's therefore perhaps the emissaries of the pope do incessantly blow in our ears , how ill our ecclesiastical revenues are bestowed , for to maintain wives and children , pomp and vanity of bishops and ministers , no less than in popery . to the state , they seem to be prejudicious , whereas any but a bishop or minister , would think , it would be more advantagious to the common-wealth , that the king should have those revenues for to maintain his fleet and army , and ease thereby the subjects of subsidies and taxes , than that a handful of bishops and ministers should have them ? specially when others can preach and teach as well as they , for nothing , but the pleasure of being heard . ismael . but do not you see it would be a sacrilege , that the king should deprive the clergy of their church revenues ? isaac . and do not you know , that almost all our congregations do hold our clergy to be no true clergy , but as meer laymen as you or i ? they admit no clergy or episcopal character , but elders chosen by the congregation . and if they be no true clergy , they have no right to the church revenues , and it 's no sacrilege to deprive them of them . the popish clergy in henry the viii's time , had visibly a greater right to them , than ours now have . for neither the king himself nor any other did doubt of their right ; and now most of our congregations do absolutely deny any right in our clergy to those rents , because they are no clergy . ye● none will be so bold , as to accuse henry the viii of sacrilege , for having taken the church-living from them , for to put them to better use . and why should we dare say , our king would commit any , for depriving our clergy of those rents ? believe he can lawfully do it , or believe he cannot , you 'll be still a good child of the reformation . believe what you please . ismael . this is a ticklish point , let 's leave it to the consideration of our wise and prudent parliament , and be pleased to answer to my doubt . how can we live in peace and tranquility in religion , if our rule of faith be scripture as each one understands it . i remember a discourse started in the house of lords , not many years ago , by his grace the duke of buckingham ; he desired to know , what it was to be a protestant ; wherein did protestancy properly consist ? the bishops , who were present looked one upon another , and whether they feared the difficulty of the question , or that for modesty's sake each expected to hear another speak first , they stood silent for a while ; at last the ice was broken by one , others followed , but hardly any two agreed ; and all that the duke could gather out of their several answers , was , that our rule of faith , was scripture as each one understood it , and protestancy nothing but scripture , as interpreted by the parliament and church of england ▪ whereupon he concluded , we have been these hundred years very busie for to settle religion , and for ought i perceive , we are as unsettled n●w as at the beginning : and truly he had great reason , for religion and faith is nothing else , but that sense of scripture , which each person of sound judgment understands ; and as it 's impossible we should all jump and agree in one sense and meaning of the text , so it 's impossible we shall ever be settled and agree in religion . isaac . the reason of our unsettlement hitherto , and at present , is the violent efforts , what by persecutions , acts of parliaments , and other oppressions : what by invectives , intrigues , and cabals of the church of engand , to draw all to be protestants ; of the presbyterians , to make us deny episcopacy ; and of each other congregation to force us to their respective tenets : and whilst this constraint and severity is used against mens consciences , it 's in vain to expect peace or settlement in our reformed church : but let us follow the rule of faith , let each one believe as in his conscience he best understands scripture : let us all believe what we please , and be permitted so to do , and we shall without doubt enjoy perfect peace and tranquillity : believe you figurative presence , if you will ; let the lutheran believe his real presence , if he likes it , and let me believe no presence at all , if i judge there 's none ? why will not you permit me to follow that rule of faith , which the whole reformation , even the church of england gives me in her 39 articles , scripture as each person of sound judgment understands it ? to say , we can never have settlement in religion , whilst this arbitrary interpretation of scripture is permitted , is to speak like a papist : this the pope and papists said to our first blessed reformers , and the popish church says this day to us , that we ought to submit our judgments to the church and councils ; that we ought not to believe what sense we think to be true , but what the pope and councils propose unto us ; and if luther , and our other reformers did not do ill in following their own sense and interpretation of scripture against all the world , why do you blame me , or any other for following their example . ismael . when you speak of our reformation and congregations , i hear you reckon the arians , socinians , and antitrinitarians , among them ; sure you do not believe they , or such like ancient condemned hereticks , were of the reformation ; for we protestants do believe the mystery of the trinity against them , and will never own them to be our brethren . isaac . and do not you believe episcopacy against the presbyterians , some canonical books against the lutherans , supremacy against the quakers , and infants baptism against the anabaptists ; and yet you own them as your brethren and godly congregations of the reformation ; or if you will deny them , they will also scorn you , and say they are more of the reformation than you are ? and why will you not own the arians , &c. as your brethren , tho' you believe the trinity against them ? you say they are old condemn'd hereticks ; and does this language become a child of the reformed church ? by whom were they condemn'd ? was it not by the popish church ? which also condemns us , and says we are as much hereticks as they ; and as we ought not to be so called , and judge the pope and councils sentence against us , to be bold , uncharitable , and unjust ; so we must say of the arians , pelagians , and others condemn'd by them . you say protestants will never own them to be their brethren ; god forbid the protestant church should be so uncharitable to their fellow christians , and so unjust to themselves . b. morton , ( as i cited in my first dialogue , ) as learned a man as the church of england bred , says the arian church is a true church , and will say no less of the others : but what need we the testimony of any , for what reason so convincingly proves ; they who walk by one and the same rule of faith , are of one and the same religion ; therefore lutherans , protestants , presbyterians and independants , do esteem themselves to be of the same faith and religion , because they all have the same rule , which is scripture , as each congregation understands it : also , notwithstanding the difference and variety of congregations in popery , they hold all but one faith , as they say ; because they have all but one rule of their belief , which is their infallible pope and church : but it 's evident that those which you call antient condemn'd hereticks , have one and the same rule of faith with our reformation ; for ours is scripture , as each person of sound judgment understands it , without any obligation of holding the sense of it delivered by pope , church , councils , or any other ; therefore our first blessed reformers did not care what sense of it the church or pope did hold , when they began to preach the purity of the gospel , but each of them interpreted it as he thought sit in the lord , and so purged the church of many errours : this is the very self same rule of faith , which arians , pelagians , nestorians , and others , peremptorily condemned by rome as hereticks , did follow and walk by : each of them read and interpreted scripture , preached and believed what sense of it they thought to be true , tho' they knew it was against the doctrine of the church , looking on scripture alone as their rule of faith , without any regard of the pope , church , councils or fathers : the church of rome , proud and impatient of any opposition , condemned them as hereticks for not submitting their judgments to her ; for taking scripture as they understood it , and not as the church and councils understood it , for their r●●● of faith ; and if this be a crime , we are as guilty as they ; we are equally ●… ocent or innocent ; we are both hereticks , or none is ; we are therefore concern'd in their honour , and ought to defend the integrity of their procedure against the common enemy , which is the pope . they were reformers of the church in their times , as we are in ours ; and whereas they have the same rule of faith , so they have the same religion with the reformation . ismael . then you will say , arianism is the doctrine of the reformation , and we may lawfully believe it . isaac . i say , god's unity in nature and trinity in persons , is the doctrine of the reformation , because the protestant , lutheran , and hugonot church judge by scripture , it is true ; and if you judge also by scripture , it is the true doctrine , you may believe it : i say also , if you judge by scripture , this mystery is not true , you may safely deny it acccording to the principles of the reformation , and be still as good a member of the reformed church , as they who believe it ; for whoever believes what he judges by scripture to be true , is a true reformed : and , that the denial of the trinity is as much the doctrine of the reformation , as the belief of it ; it appears not only because it was the doctrine of the arians , who , as i proved , are truly of the reformed church ; but because it was taught by the greatest lights of our church : d calvin says the text. my father is greater than i , must be understood of christ , not only as he is man , but also as he is god. and that the council of nice did abuse the text : e my father and i are one , for to prove the vnity of both in nature ; whereas it only signifies their vnity by conformity of wills. again he says , epist . 2. ad polon . in tract . theol. pag. 796. that prayer , holy trinity , one god have mercy of us , is brabarous , and does not please me . and adds , f the son has his own substance distinct from the father . his disciple g danaeus , says , it 's a foolish insipid prayer : and our great apostle luther , ( who as fox witnesseth , was the chariot and conductor of israel , and a man extraordinarily raised and replenish'd with gods spirit , to teach the purity of the gospel , ) caused that prayer to be blotted out of the litanies , h that word trinity , says he , sounds coldly ; my soul hates that word humousion , and the arian did well in not admitting it . lastly , ochinus that great oracle of england , impugns this mystery with a strong discourse : i we are not obliged to believe , says he , more than the saints of the ancient testament , otherwise our condition would be worse than theirs , but they were not obliged to believe this mystery , therefore we are not obliged . examin , i pray , the works of these eminent doctors , where i quote them ; consider if they be not , not only men of sound judgment , but men extraordinarily raised by god , ( says the synod of charenton ; ) the chariots and conductors of israel , says fox : men to be reverenc'd after christ , says our doctor ●owel , and apostolical oracles sent to teach us the purity of the gospel , and conclude , it 's an undeniable verity , that this is the doctrine of the reformation , whereas it's scripture as interpreted by such men : oh! but england , france , and scotland , believe this mystery ; well ! and what then ? that proves that the mystery is also the doctrine of the reformation , because whatever any man of sound judgment thinks to be scripture , it 's the doctrine ; but is england or france alone the whole reformation ? are not luther , calvin , danaeus , ochinus as well of the reformation , and men of as sound judgment as they ? since therefore they understand , by scripture there 's no trinity , it 's the doctrine of the reformation also that there 's none : believe it or deny it , which you like best , and you 'll be still of the reformed church . isaac . by the principle you run upon you say any may blasphemy is the doctrin of the reformation , for there 's hardly any so execrable , but some dr. of ours has delivered and taught it . ismael . the principle i run upon is this , scripture as each person of sound judgment interprets it , is our rule of faith : judge you , if that be not a good principle in our reformed church , whereas this is the rule of faith given us by the 39 articles , and generally by all our doctors , as i proved in my first dialogue : this being our rule of faith and reformed doctrine , it 's evident , that whatever doctrine is judged by any person of sound judgment to be contained in scripture , is the doctrine of our reformation : some persons of sound judgment say the real presence is expressed by scripture , this therefore is the doctrine of the reformation ; others say only figurative presence is taught in scripture , this also is the doctrine of the reformation ; some , understand by scripture , there is a mystery of the blessed trinity , this therefore is the doctrine of the reformation : others understand there 's no such mystery , this also is the doctrine of the reformation : so that whether you believe or deny this or any other tenet controverted , you 'll still hold the doctrine of the reformation . ismael . calvin k says , christ pray'd unadvisedly , the eve of his passion ; that he uttered words whereof he was afterward sorry : that in his passion he was so troubled of all sides , that overwhelm'd with desparation , he desisted from invoking god , which was to renounce all hopes of salvation : and says he , l if you object it 's absurd and scandalous to affirm christ despair i answer , this desparation proceeded from him as he was man , not as he was god. and this is not only the doctrine of calvin , but of brentius , m marlotus , n jacobus minister ( quoted by bilson ) and of beza . will you say this is the doctrine of the reformation , or that we can without scruple believe it ? also calvin says , o that christ's corporal death was not sufficient for to redeem us , but that after having despaired on the cross , he suffered the death of his soul ; that 's to say , that his soul after his corporal death , suffered the pains of the damn'd in hell. and says he in the same place , they are but ignorant , doltish , brutish , men , who will deny it . luther also teaches the same doctrine : p as he suffered with exceeding pains , the death of the body ; so it seems he suffered afterward the death of the soul in hell : epinus q a learned lutheran says , christ descended into hell for thee , and suffered not only corporal death , but the death and fire of hell. mr. fulk and perkins avow this is also the express doctrine of illiricus , latimer and lossius . also luther r most impiously affirms , that not the human nature of christ dyed for us , but also his divine nature : see luther's words quoted at large by zuinglius , ſ and hospinian ; t if you say such scandalous blasphemies may be safely believed , you will render your christianity suspected ; and if you say , that they are the doctrine of the reformation , or that they may be believed according to the principles of the reformation , you will make the reformation , and its principles to be hated by any good christian . isaac . if i walk by the rule of faith of the reformation , i 'll prove my self a true reformed child ; and if i prove my self to be a reformed child , my christianity cannot be justly suspected . what tenet have you related of all those which you call blasphemies and scandals , but has been judged by those eminent doctors of our reformation to be express scripture , or conformable to scripture ; and since our rule of faith is scripture , as each person of sound judgment understands it , and since the doctrine of our reformation is but whatever any such person of sound judgment , judges to be expressed in , or proved by scripture , it 's evident that all those tenets are undeniably the doctrine of the reformation : i say then , and will say , without any offence to my christianity , or blemish to our reformed church , that those tenets are the doctrin of the reformation and may be as safely believed by any child of it , as figurative presence , supremacy , or two sacraments : and let not any bigot pretend to frighten me from this doctrine by calling it blasphemy and impiety ; no , it 's scripture , as interpreted by our renowned reformed doctors , therefore it 's no blasphemy : let any man convince me , that our rule of faith must not be scripture , as each person of sound judgment understands it ; and he will convince that this cannot be justly called the doctrine of the reformation ; but whilst that principle and rule of faith stands unshaken , nothing that is taught by any person of judgment to be the doctrine of scripture , but it is to be called our doctrine , and may be safely believed . you say , that whoever has any love for christianity , will hate the reformation and its principles , if they give liberty for to believe such blasphemies : but , can any mother be more indulgent to her child , than the reformation is to us ? such as think those tenets to be blasphemies , the reformation gives them leave not to believe them : and if any judges by scripture , that they are not blasphemies , but pure doctrine , as luther , calvin , and others did , they have liberty for to believe them . he who denies them , cannot in charity check them who believe them , nor can they who believe them , check those who deny them , whereas each follow the rule of faith , and believe what they judge by scripture to be true . and if you or your church of england cry out blasphemy , blasphemy , against all that you judge to be false , why do not you cry blasphemy against presbyterians , lutherans , and other congregations , from whom you dissent ? and what difference betwixt you and ●he church of rome ? the folly of this is to call heresy and blasphemy all that is not her own doctrine ! and all that your church of england mislikes , must be fanaticism , blaphemy , and impiety ? must our rule of faith be scripture , as the church of england understands it , and not otherwise ? presbyterians , and lutherans , will never allow it : if therefore our rule of faith be scripture , as each person understands it ; any person of sound judgment in the reformation , may without scruple believe what he understands to be the doctrine of scripture . fourth dialogue . ismael . you still insist upon that principle , that our rule of faith is scripture , as each person of sound judgment understands it , and from that principle will follow many absurd consequences destructive of piety and religion . isaac . that principle is not invented by me , it 's of our holy reformation ; if i did discourse with a papist i would prove the principle to be true , and gods express word ; but since i discourse with a reformed child , i suppose , i need not spend my time in proving it ; this principle then , being an unquestionable truth in our reformation , no reformed child must be so irreverent and bold as to say , that any doctrine which clearly and unavoidably follows out of it , is blasphemous or impious , for that would be to condemn our principle by which we walk : ex vero non sequitur nisi veram : from a true principle nothing can follow but true doctrine . can you deny but this was the rule of faith , and principle of our first blessed reformers , and of the church of england , mentioned in her 39 articles ? if therefore they judged , and if any other judges by that rule and principle , that those tenets which you call impious and blasphemous , to be true doctrine , they cannot be blamed for believing them . ismael . i confess our first reformers did speak so , but i say such errors and impious doctrines cannot without irreverence be called the doctrine of the reformation , and cannot without impiety be believed , because our reformation at present condemns and detests those blasphemies , for we must grant that our reformation in its beginning was not in its full perfection of doctrine , god began it by luther , calvin , zuinglius , and others : those great men had their frailties , they did overlash in some things , and what they said amiss , gods heavenly spirit inspired to the church from time to time to correct it , and has at length brought our church to that purity of doctrine , and fulness of perfection which now it enjoys . nothing is to be called now the doctrine of the reformation , but what is now believed by our congregations , and none of them believes those execrable tenets you related . isaac . you wrong the reformation very much , in saying it had not its full perfection in the beginning , it 's rather to be thought , that that polishing and refining of it in ensuing years with new perfections , and correcting the first draught of it by our first reformers , has been a corruption of it with some mixture of popish errors and superstitions : for all religious congregations and pretenders to piety , are at the first beginning in the height of their perfection , and in progress of years they decline and decay from their primitive spirit into errors and corruption of manners : religious congregations are not like arts and sciences , which by time and experience receive new perfections ; but like chimnies , which grow daily blacker by continual smoke and fire : witness the jewish church and law in its beginning , flourishing and holy , but corrupted in progress of time , by traditions of men and superstitions of pharisees : witness also the law of the gospel in those happy times of the apostles , holy and pure , but corrupted after some years by errors of popery : if we be to seek for the pure and orthodox doctrine of the primitive church , ought not we to be said by the apostles , men raised extraordinarily by god , and replenished with his spirit to teach us the gospel ? and if we be to seek for the pure and orthodox doctrine of the reformation , ought not we to be sway'd rather by luther , calvin , melancthon , zuinglius , beza , and our other first reformers , than by a few ministers and bishops of england , who tho' they be wise and pious men , yet they are not of that stamp as the others . and if our present congregations presume to correct them , and say they overlash'd in their doctrine ; will not the papists say , if they have been such scandalous masters , and false teachers , why did you receive their reformation ? and as they erred so grosly in such prime articles of christianity , why do you fear and suspect they have also erred in the rest ? secondly , the papists will say , if as they reformed us , you reform them , then you must expect and permit that others may reform you , and forsake your doctrine as you forsake theirs . ismael . i wish you could make out , that the reformation was in its full . perfection in its beginning ; had you read some writers of ours , perhaps you would judge otherwise ; a musculus , ●… learned lutheran , writes thus ; thus it is with ●s at present , that if any be desirous to see a great rabble of knaves , turbulent spirits , deceitful persons , cozeners , and debauch'd men , let him go to a city , where the gospel is purely preached , and he shall find them by multitudes ; for it 's more manifest than the by light , that never were there more unbridled and ●nruly people among the turks and infidels than the professors of the reformed gospel . b luther himself says as much ; the world grows daily worse and men are now more covetous , revengeful , and licentiius than they were in popery . mr. stubs c says , no less ; after my travels round about all england , i found the people in most parts proud , malicious , ambitious and careless of good works . mr. richard gefery , in his sermon at st. paul's cross , printed anno 1604. i may freely speak what i have plainly seen that in flanders never was there more drunkenness , in italy more wantonness , in jury more hypocrisie , turky more impiety , in tartary more iniquity , than is practised generally in england , and particularly in london . certainly our reformation at present deserves a better character ; never did the ale-houses and taverns complain more heavily of want of trading , which is a proof of our sobriety ; the churches which we see a building in london , is a good testimony of piety ; and we are so far from any smack of hypocrisie , that you shall not see in all london the least appearance of vertue , so hiddenly it's kept from mortal eyes , but what you may meet in our honest quakers . isaac . i confess our congregations as now they are , are very good both in doctrine and manners ; but i say also , that the doctrine and manners of our reformation , at its first beginning was as pure , as holy , and as true as now it is , or ever it will be . nay , supposing and granted , their manners and doctrine were so corrupt as those doctors mention ; i say that amidst all those vices , their life was as holy , innocent , blameless and pure as yours is now . and that you may be convinc'd of this truth , know that calvin expresly teaches . d we believe the sins of the faithful , ( he means of the reformation ) are but venial sins ; not but that they deserve death , but because there is no damnation for the children of grace in asmuch as their sins are not imputed to them ; and again e he says , we can assure our selves , we can no more be damn'd for any sins , then jesus christ himself . luther f is of the same opinion , as nothing but faith doth justifie us , so nothing but incredulity is a sin. again , g no sin is so great that it can condemn a man , such as are damn'd , are damn'd only for their incredulity whitaker , h no sin can hurt a men who has faith. the same is taught by wotton , fulk , tindal , and beza . it 's therefore the doctrine of scripture , as interpreted by these persons of great and sound judgment , that incests , murthers , intemperance , or whatever else you call a sin , ( incredulity excepted , ) either is no sin at all , or but venial sins , which do no harm , nor cannot damn the children of the reformation ; if therefore our brethren lived in the beginning of the reformation , as those authors relate , they lived according to scripture , as interpreted to them by men of sound judgment , and this being our rule of faith and manners , they did not ill , but very well in following it . ismael . they were men of the reformation , it 's true , who taught these errors , and dissolutition of life and good manners ; insomuch , they swerved from the spirits holiness and purity of the reformation , and must not be believed nor commended . look upon the reformation as now it is , and you will not find any such scandalous doctrine , or corruption of manners . isaac . they were not only men of the reformation , but the greatest oracles of it , which you will not match with any of our prese●●… congregations , and it 's not pardonable in any reformed child to say , such oracles , extraordinarily raised by god to teach the purity of the gospel , should have taught either errors in doctrine , or dissolution of manners . they taugh● what in their consciences they understood by scripture to be true ; if you will not be so it revent as to say , that they were knaves , who spoke and taught against their consciences and knowledge . therefore they taught the doctrine of the reformation , purely and truly ▪ the consequence is evident : for what is the doctrine of the reformation , but what wise , learned men of sound judgment think and understand by scripture to be true ? why is figurative presence the doctrine of the reformation though denied by lutherans , ( who are reformed also , ) but because wise , learned men judge by scripture as they understand it , it 's the true doctrine ? or can you give me any other rule of faith by which we may know what doctrine is of the reformation , and what not , but scripture as each person of sound judgment understands it ? or what rule can you give for to know what is good or evil to be done , but scripture as understood by such persons ? if therefore luther , calvin , and the other doctors i quoted , judge by scripture that doctrine and manner of life to be true and good , why may not we say it 's the doctrine of the reformation ? if you or the church of england or scotland judge that doctrine to be false , and that manner of life to be a dissolution and corruption of manners : why ? you are men of sound judgment , you understand scripture so ; that will be the doctrine also of the reformation , you may believe it : but you must not deny that luther and calvin's doctrine also is of the reformation , because they were men of as sound judgment as you . you transgress hainously against modesty , in saying those sacred organs of god swerved from the spirit and holiness of the reformation ; which having no other rule of faith but scripture , as each person of sound judgment understands it ; its spirit and holiness consists in framing our life and doctrine to that rule , as our blessed reformers and reformation in its beginning did , believing those tenets , which you call errours and blasphemy , and living that life which you call dissolution and corruption of manners , because they judge by scripture as they understood it , that doctrine and manner of life was true , innocent and good ; and if you like it as they did , you may believe and live as they did , and be a good child of the reformation : consider i pray all the works and doctrine of luther , ( the like i say of our other first reformers ) the three parts of his doctrine is against popery , and they say all are heresies and blasphemies ; the rest is contrary to the church of england , and she says , this is also errors and blasphemy , so you conspire with the papists , to destroy the credit of our first and best reformer and betwixt you both , you unplume him of all his feathers , and leave him not a bit of good doctrine . but i will stand to the spirit , and principles of the reformation , and congregations , as now they are , since that you do so much boast of its purity and great perfections ; and i will prove that doctrine and manner of life , may be believed and followed lawfully standing to its principles : for if the spirit of the reformation be at present among us , we must not be forced , as in popery , to believe against our proper judgments , what others believe by scripture to be true and holy , but what each one thinks in his own conscience to be such ; because even now at present , our rule of faith is scripture as each person of sound judgment understands it , and this is the same rule which luther and the reformation in it's beginning had : this holy liberty is the best jewel , the greatest perfection , and most glorious prerogative the reformation has : if therefore now at present any man judges by scripture that he can marry ten wives at a time ; that he can kill his own son as abraham intended ; that he may commit incest with his own daughter , as lot did ; that there is no sin but incredulity , as luther believed ; nor any mystery of the trinity of persons in one nature , as calvin believed , with what justice can the church of england say a man does not believe , and live as becometh a reformed child , or that his doctrine and life is scandalous ; whereas he lives and believes as he understands by scripture , he may or ought to do , which is the rule of faith of the reformation , even of the church of england ? the church of england says , the lutheran doctrin of the real presence is not the doctrin of scripture ; that the presbyterian doctrin against episcopacy , is not the doctrin of scripture ; that the anabaptist doctrin against infants baptism , is not of scripture ; and yet you permit them all to live in peace ; you confess they are true children of the reformation , though dissenters from you ; why ? because they follow scripture as they understand it , and this is our rule of faith ? and why will not you say , the belief and life of that other man is also of the reformation , though it may seem absurd to you ; since he believes and lives as he judges by scripture he may ? it follows therefore plainly , that this is the doctrine of the reformation . ismael . i confess our rule of faith in the reformation , is scripture , as each person of sound judgment understands it : but you cannot doubt but that it 's needful to moderate and curb this liberty , or it may run too far : for if every man be licenced to believe and teach every thing he fancies to be according to scripture ; as there is no doctrine so execrable but some ignorant reader may hit upon a text , which ill understood , may seem to favour it ; so there will be none but may be believed , and called the doctrine of the reformation : for example , beza i teaches , ( and says it 's also the doctrine of calvin , sumaize and geneve , ) that the lords supper may be lawfully administred in any kind of victuals as well as in bread and wine , in eggs , flesh , fish , &c. where there is no bread and wine , says he , we may duly celebrate , if instead of them we use what we usually eat and drink . and again in the same place , if there be no water at hand , and that baptism cannot be with edification deferred i would baptize in any other liquor . isaac . and why should not it be lawful to any reformed to believe this , whereas it's scripture as interpreted by a man of so sound a judgment ? but i do not in any wise like that opinion of yours , and of the church of england , that it 's convenient to limit and curb men's judgments , lest they may run too far : this is the policy of rome , they will not permit an arbitrary interpretation of scripture , alledging forsooth , for inconveniency , the multitude of absurd doctrines which the world would swarm with , if such a liberty were allowed : no , no , far be it from any true reformed child to mislike or blame that all people should interpret scripture , and believe what they judge by it to be true : and if what they judge to be true ▪ should seem to you false and scandalous , do not you believe it , but let them believe it , and they will be of the reformation , because they follow our rule of faith. ismael . k luther l melancthon , m musculus , n ochinus , o beza , and others , teach the lawfulness of bigamy or multiplicity of wives , and prove it with the example of abraham , isaac , and jacob : and ochinus expounding the text of st. paul , it behoveth a bishop to be a man of one wife : the prohibition , says he , is not to be understood so , that a bishop should have but one wife at a time , for certainly he may have many ; but st. pauls meaning is , that he ought not to have too many wives at a time , that 's to say , ten or twenty . isaac . and will you deny this to be the doctrine of the reformation , whereas it's scripture as interpreted by men of so eminent and sound a judgment ? ismael . the synod of geneve , p and the q ecclesiastical discipline of france , printed at saumure , has decreed , that a wife whose husband is a long time absent , may have him called by the publick cryer , and if within a competent time he does not appear , without any further enquiry , the ministers may licence her to marry any other ; or marry her himself . isaac . i say all women may practice this doctrine without scruple or shame , whereas it's scripture , as interpreted by that thrice holy synod ; but let seamen beware how they undertake long voyages , for fear their wives may take other husbands in their absence . ismael . luther r teaches it's lawful to a wife , if her husband does not please her , to call her man-servant , or her neighbour ; which doctrine they say is come to the ears of our london sisters ; and he gives the like liberty to the hubands , if their wives be pettish and humoursom . if the husband , says he , cannot correct the humoursomness of his wife , he may imagine she is dead , and may marry another , because it 's not in the power of a man to live without a woman , nor in hers to live without a man. isaac . this is scripture as interpreted by luther , and consequently must not be denied to be the doctrine of the reformation ; nor can any of our reformation be justly punish'd or blam'd for practising it , if he judges by scripture it be true , ( as luther did ) for this is out rule of faith. but luther never gave this liberty , but upon condition , that the husband or wife should first make their complaint before a magistrate , for to have a redress of their injury and discontent ; but this condition seems too . combersome to the modesty of our sisters ; they do not submit to it , but do themselves justice without any address to the magistrate . i know also , that not only luther , but ſ bucer , t melancthon , u ochinus , x musculus and calvin , y do teach that a man who finds his wife in adultery may cast her off by divorce , and marry another ; and our french synods have ordered this doctrine to be put in their ecclesiastical discipline , so that it 's the doctrine of scripture as interpreted by these persons of sound judgment , and consequently of the reformation : you may therefore believe and practise it ; our sisters , particularly our ministers wives were much alarm'd at this doctrine , and say it 's a damnable heresie ; believe it as you please . ismael . does not luther say it's impossible a z young man of 20 years can live without a woman ; or a young maid of 18 years without a man ; whereby all parents may believe their daughters of that age are defil'd if not preferr'd in due time : sure you will not say , this is the doctrine of the reformation . isaac . and who doubts but that it 's the reformed doctrine : scripture as interpreted by so sound a judgment ; the contrary doctrine is also of the reformation , and you may believe it , because our glorious queen elizabeth dyed a virgin ; and it 's credibly reported some few fellows of oxford and cambridge live continently . ismael . but what do you think of a child christen'd in popery by a monk or a fryar , ought he to be christen'd again in our reformation ? and what if a popish priest , or fryar , did become of our reformed church , can he lawfully marry , whereas be made a vow of chastity ? isaac . as to the first query , it 's the doctrin of the reformation , declared by many french synods , and recorded in their ecclesiastical discipline , that he must be christen'd again , because the first baptism was null : it 's also the doctrin of the reformation , declared by the church of england , and many synods of france , that the first baptism is sufficient and valid : believe which you please . it 's also the doctrin of the reformation , that infants baptism is not at all needful ( nay nor lawful say the anabaptists ) so says calvin , a zuinglius , beza , and many others ; it 's likewise the doctrin of our 39 articles b , and our holy synod of london c , that infants baptism is lawful and needful . believe which you like best ; both are of the reformation . as to the second query , it 's the doctrin of the reformation that priests and fryars are obliged to the vow of chastity which they made in popery , and cannot marry , this is the doctrin of many of our brethren , and particularly of d hooker , e marloratus , budellus and f couel , who say the papists vows of poverty , obedience and chastity are commendable and ought to be kept . you may also believe this is wicked doctrin , and that they may take wives notwithstanding their vow of chastity , as well as benefices notwithstanding their vow of poverty : believe which you please , both doctrines are of the reformation ; but the best is to say they can marry , for if marriage and benefices were denied them , no priest or fryar would ever embrace our reformed doctrin : we know our great zuinglius himself would not at all preach the gospel unto the switzers , until that he presented a petition for himself and his companions ( all priests and fryars ) extant yet in his 1 tom. pag. 110. and obtained the contents of it , which was to have wives . nor can we doubt this to be the best doctrin , whereas luther , beza , and almost all our reformers , were priests and fryars , and the first step they gave in the reformation was to marry : the papists and some weak brethren were much scandalized at luther's marriage , and erasmus his raillery upon it was much solemnized ; luther yesterday a monk , to day a husband , and next day a father , because that honest kate boren , his virtuous bride , was happily delivered of a lovely boy eight days after he married her : but the servant of god did not regret the action , which proves that he judged by scripture it was very lawful . fifth dialogue . ismael . you know i have been born and bred in our holy reformation , and a church of england man ; you tell me i may believe this or that , and whatever i please , i would gladly settle once for ever , and resolve what i may , and ought to believe , and not to be every day carried away with every wind of doctrin : let me , to that purpose propose unto you , and hear your resolution of some doubts . what do you think , have not we a church on earth establisht by christ , wherein we are to live and serve him , and believe her doctrin ? isaac . i will give you no other instruction nor answer but the pure doctrin of the reformation , which when you have heard , you may determine as you like best , what religion to embrace ; but know this , that after you have determin'd with your self to believe this or that , you may with a very safe conscience alter that resolution next day after , and believe the quite contrary to what you resolve to believe , if upon better consideration you think the contrary to be true ; this is the liberty of the holy reformation , as i proved in my first dialogue . as to your present doubt i answer , it 's the doctrin of the reformation , that it was jesus christ the son of god who establisht the church , you may believe it therefore : it 's also the doctrin of the reformation , that it was not jesus christ the son of god who establisht the church : that this is the doctrin of our reformation it 's apparent , for it's scripture as interpreted by ochinus a man of sound judgment , whom all italy could not match , says calvin ; in whose presence england was happy , and unhappy in his absence , says b. bale : ochinus speaks thus , a considering how the church was establisht by christ and washt with his blood ; and considering again how it was utterly overthrown by papacy ; i concluded that he who establisht it , could not be christ the son of god , because he wanted providence ; and upon this reflection , he renounced christ and became a jew . and no man can say but that he acted and behaved himself like a true child of the reformation in so doing , for he followed scripture as he understood it ; and as he was a true reformed child in forsaking popery , because he understood by scripture , that the reformation was better ; so since he understood by reading scripture more , that judaism was better than the reformation , he acted like a good reformed , in chusing that which he understood by scripture to be the best ; this is the reformations rule of faith ; do you , if you please , as he did , and you 'll be as good a reformed as he . and if you chuse to believe that there is a church establisht on earth by christ , you must beware never to believe or perswade your self that we are bound to believe her doctrin , or live in her , if you do not judge by scripture that she teaches the doctrin of christ : this is the most essential point of popery , an obligation of submitting our judgments to the church , and believing her doctrin without any more examining , and in this the church of england is much like the popish church , which by acts of parliaments and other severities would oblige all men to believe her doctrin , rites and ceremonies : no , god has given us scripture for our rule of faith , as we forsook the popish church , because we discovered by scripture her many errours in doctrin ; so we are not bound to believe the doctrin of any other church , but as we find by scripture her doctrin is true . do , and speak as luther to 1. edit . jen. in resolut . i will be free , and will not submit to the authority of councils , popes , church or vniversity ; to the contrary i will confidently teach whatever i judge to be true ; whether it be catholick doctrin or heretical ; condemned or approved . ismael . must i not believe that the doctrin of jesus christ , delivered to his apostles and the church is true doctrin ? isaac . the reformation teaches , it is , and you may safely believe it : you may as safely believe it is not , in the principles of the reformation ; because it teaches that christ err'd in doctrin and manners : vere pharisaei erant viri valde boni , says luther , ; b and christus minime debuit eos taxare : and calvin says , c it 's a folly to think he was not ignorant in many things ; lastly , david georgius d ( a man of god and of a holy life says osiander ) writes , if the doctrin of christ and his apostles had been true and perfect , the church which they planted had continued , but now it is manifest that antichrist has subverted it , as it 's manifest in papacy : therefore it was false and imperfect . see these words quoted in the history of david george , printed by the divines of basil , at antwerp . anno. 1568 both doctrines are scripture as interpreted by men of sound judgment ; a child of the reformation , may believe which he will. ismael . is it not the doctrin of the reformation that the apostles were infallible in their doctrin ? much more must we believe that jesus christ was so . isaac . yes it is ; you may believe it : and it 's also the doctrin of the reformation that they were not infallible , neither in their written or unwritten doctrin , so many of our most renowned doctors speak , and whatever any men of sound judgment judge to be true by scripture , is the doctrin of the reformation : zuinglius , e one of the greatest oracles of our church says , it 's a great ignorance to believe any infallible authority in the gospels or epistles of the apostles ; beza , not inferiour to zuinglius , blotted out of st. john the history of the woman adulteress , judging it a fable ; clebitius f affirms , that luke's relation of christ's passion is not true , because it does not agree with that of matthew and mark , and more credit is to be to two , than to one . g calvin says , peter consented to , and added to the schism of the church , to the overthrow of christian liberty , and christ's grace . h whitaker says , it 's evident that after the descent of the holy gospel , the whole church , even the apostles , erred ; and peter erred in doctrin and manners . i luther says peter lived and taught extra verbum dei ; and brentius k his disciple say , that peter and barnabas together with the church of jerusalem erred after receiving the holy ghost . if our rule of faith be scripture as each person of sound judgment understands it , undoubtedly this must be the doctrin of the reformation , and may be believed by any reformed , since it's scripture interpreted by such renowned men . ismael . this is most wicked doctrin , i 'll never believe it , isaac . if you think by scripture it 's wicked , do not : follow your rule of faith , scripture as you understand it ; but if any other understands by scripture ▪ ( as those authors did ) that the doctrin is good , give him leave to believe it ; he 'll but follow his rule of faith , scripture as he understands it . ismael . i would gladly know which are the true canonical books of scripture . isaac . the reformation teaches , and you may believe with the church of england , that st. paul's epistle to the hebrews , those of james and jude : the 2. of st. peter ; the 2. and 3. of st. john , are true canonical scripture ; the reformation also teaches they are not canonical , because lutherans deny them ; believe which you like best . but if you 'll live in peace , and out of all strife with protestants , lutherans , and others , who dispute , if this or that be canonical scripture ; your readiest and speediest way will be , to say there 's no true canonical scripture ; scripture is no more to be regarded than other pious books : if you say this is not the doctrin of the reformation , read hossias de expresse verbo dei , & lib. de har. where he relates this to be the doctrin of the swinfeldians , as good reformers as the best of us : they say , that we are not to regard any instruction from man or book , but gods immediate inspiration , which speaks secretly to our hearts ; for which they alledge those comfortable words of the prophet , i will hear what my lord my god speaks in me : for say they , the book which we call scripture , is a creature , and we must not seek for light and instruction from any creature , but from god the father of lights . this is scripture as interpreted by men of sound judgment ; any child of the reformation may believe it . ismael . i thought to settle my mind in my choice of some religion , and you go the way to beat me from all , for if you renverse the authority of scripture , what warrant shall we have for any religion ? god forbid the reformation should deny the true canon , or the infallible truth of scripture ; and let all the world say the contrary , i will constantly aver and believe it's gods infallible word . isaac . how can you say i beat you from all religion , when i directly perswade you to follow the rule of faith of our reformation , scripture as each person of sound judgment understands it ; let this be your religion , if you will be a true reformed ; whatever you judge in your conscience to be true , let the church of england , or france , or any other say and believe what they will , you are to believe but what you judge by scripture to be true ; and this is the religion of the reformation . ismael . i would gladly know , if it be lawful to chop or change the text ? isaac . it 's the doctrine of the reformation that you cannot , because god has forbid to add to , or take away from his word : and therefore we condemn the papists for their tradition , obtruded upon the flock as the word of god : it 's also the doctrine of the reformation , and the practice of our best reformers , when the text does not speak clear enough , that for to refute popery and establish our own doctrine , we may add or diminish a word or two ; which is not to change the word of god , but to make it speak more expresly : as when luther had a mind to prach justification by faith alone , finding the text said but , man is justified by faith , he added the word alone and made the text very clear against popery , which formerly was somewhat obscure : zuinglius being to teach the figurative presence of christ in the sacrament , found the text , this is my body , to be too pat against his doctrine and instead of is , put in this signifieth . the church of england being to preach the kings spiritual supremacy , could not convince the obstinate papist by the original text , which said 1 pet. 2. submit your selves unto every humane creature for the lord's sake , whether it be the king as excelling , or to , &c. but in king edwards time they altered one word , and made the text thus , submit your selves to every ordinance of man , whether it be to the king , as being the chief head , and the following impressions of the bible , in the year 1557. and 79. say , to the king as supreame . and so the true doctrine is clearly convinc'd out of scripture , as also the lawfulness of priests marriage ; for the text before the reformation said 1 cor. 9. have we not power to lead about a woman sister ; and now our bibles say , have we not power to lead about a wife being our sister : hence it 's evident according to the doctrine and practice of our reformation , that when you have a mind to establish a doctrine which you judge to be true , you may change the text and make it speak to your sense and meaning , provided you judge your sense to be true . ismael . what do you think of justifying faith ? does faith alone justify us ? isaac . it 's the doctrine of the reformation , that without charity it cannot , because st. paul says 1 cor. 13. if i have faith so as to move mountains , and no charity , i am nothing . it 's also the doctrine of the reformation , that it is impious and wicked to say , faith alone without charity does not justify ; this is scipture as interpreted by luther a man of sound judgment : l who say , quoth luther , that faith alone though perfect it be , cannot justify without charity , say impiously and wicked , because faith alone , without any good works doth justifie . believe which doctrine you please , both are of the reformation . ismael . luther was insolent in checking the doctrine of st. paul. isaac . probably he did not reflect that it was the doctrine of the apostle , and if you will have it to be a check of st. paul luther m will answer for himself , be it , says he , that the church , augustine or other doctors , also peter and paul , nay , and an angel from heaven should teach otherwise than as i teach , yet my doctrine is such , that it seteth forth gods glory ; i know i teach no humane , but divine doctrine . it 's the doctrine of the reformation , that faith alone , without any good works , and notwithstanding all sins you are guilty of , doth justifie you : this is scripture , as interpreted by luther , who says , nothing can damn you but incredulity , as nothing but faith can save you ; of whitaker , wotton , fulk , and beza , whose words i related in our precedent dialogue which i believe you remember , and i need not repeat . it 's also the doctrine of the reformation , that good works are meritorious of grace and glory ; n hooker and harmonia confess . o say it 's the doctrine of scripture ; and what any person of sound judgment judges to be the doctrine of scripture , he may believe it , for this is our rule of faith. it 's likewise the doctrine generally of all our church , that good works are not at all meritorious : tindall ( called by fox p , a man of god , and a constant martyr ) judges this to be so true , that in his treatise de mammona iniquitatis , he says , christ himself did not by all his good works merit the glory : and tho' the scripture says expresly he did , calvin q affirms , that it 's a foolish curiosity to examine , and a rash proposition to say christ did merit . it 's the doctrine of the reformation , that tho' good works be not meritorious , nor have not the least influence in our justification or salvation , yet they are absolutely needful for both , in as much as that true faith cannot be without good works , because they are the marks and signs of a living faith , by whch alone we are saved ; this is the judgment of the church of england expressed in the 11 and 12 articles of the 39 , and of melancthon in locis commun . de bonis operibus , and you may believe it : you may also believe , and it 's the doctrine of the reformation , that good works are so far from being needful , that they are prejudicious and hurtful to our salvation , and the best way to be saved , is to do no good work at all ; this is scripture as interpreted by illiricus , flacius , amsdorsius , quoted in act. colloq . aldeburg . pag. 205. and 299. and luther r was so deeply perswaded of this truth , tho that christ said , if thou wilt enter into the kingdom of heaven , keep the commandment : luther says , it 's an obstacle to our salvation to keep them : where it is said , quoth he , that faith in christ doth indeed justify us , but that it is necessary also to keep the commandments , there christ is denyed , and faith abolish'd , because that which is proper to faith alone is attributed if the commandments . and again , ſ says he , if faith be accompanied with good works , it 's no true faith ; that it may justify it must be alone without any good works . this is scripture as interpreted by such eminent and sound men ; and consequently the doctrine of the reformation ; and who doubts but that any doctrine of the reformation may be believed . hence forward , when you hear the preacher exhort you to good works , you may believe him if you please , and have a mind to spend your monys , because he preaches the doctrine of the reformation ; or you may laugh at him , and believe not a word he says , because he preaches against the doctrine of the reformation . ismael . these are dangerous and scandalous tenets , destructive of piety and christianity ; and let luther and those authors you quoted , say what they please , the reformation , nor no honest man will ever believe such abominable doctrine . isaac . i do not say that the children of the reformation are obliged to believe them : they may believe as you do , that all are wicked tenets : but if luther and the others cited , judge in their conscience these tenets to be the doctrine of scriptures , and if peter , john or james , like their interpretation , i say they may according to the principles of our reformation believe them , and be as truly reformed children as you ; for our rule of faith is scripture , as each person of sound judgment understands it ; and in believing those tenets , because they judge them to be the doctrine of scripture they stick fast to , and follow our rule of faith : why is figurative presence and the kings supremacy , the doctrine of the reformation , tho' denied by papists , lutherans , and presbyterians ; but because the protestants judg it's the doctrine of scripture : if therefore those great authors i quoted , and any other with them , judge those tenets to be the doctrine of scripture , they can be justly called the doctrine of the reformation : must protestants be forced against their judgments to deny real presence , and supremacy , because lutherans say it's wicked doctrine . and why must luther , illiricus , flaccius , and others be forced to deny those tenets , tho' protestants or papists judge them to be damnable ? let each one believe what he thinks to be the doctrine of scripture , and he will still be a true reformed child . ismael does not our reformation teach that 't is possible to all men , assisted with god's grace , to keep the commandments ? isaac . this is the doctrine of the church of england , and consequently of the reformation : it 's also the doctrine of the reformation delivered out of scripture , as interpreted by luther , calvin , willet , and several others , that it 's impossible to any man assisted with what grace soever to keep the commandments . none has ever yet , says our great calvin , t and god has decreed none shall ever keep the commandments : again , u the law and commandments were given us , to no other end , but that we should be damn'd by them ; inasmuch , that it is impossible for vs to do what they command . the same doctrine is taught by luther , in several places of his works , by willet x and by our brethren the gomarists of holland , and many of our french synods . believe which you please both doctrines are of the reformation . it 's also the doctrine of luther and calvin , that god does not cast men into hell because their sins deserve it , nor save men because they merit it , but meerly because he will have it for he crowns those who have not deserved it ; says luther , y and he punishes those who have not deserved it ; 't is gods wrath and severity to damn the one , 't is gods grace and mercy to save the other . calvin also , z men are damn'd for no other cause , but because god will have it so ; he is the cause and author of their damnation ; their damnation is decreed by god when when they are in their mothers womb , because he will have it so ; this is also the belief of our gomarists in holland , of many french churches , and of several learned calvinists ; though the church of england denies this doctrine , none will dare say it is not the doctrine of the reformation , because it is scripture as interpreted by such eminent men of our church . ismael . i will never believe such execrable doctrines , nor will i ever be of any congregation which believes them . isaac . i do not advise you to believe them ; but to give others leave to believe them , if they think them to be the doctrine of scripture ; as luther , calvin , willet , gomarists , and others do : you must not , if you be a true reformed child hinder any man from believing , nor be displeased with him for believing what he judges in his conscience to be the doctrine of scripture , for this is our rule of faith. will not you be of the congregation and religion of those , who follow scripture as their rule of faith , and believe what they judge in their conscience to be the doctrine of scripture ? ismael . yes i will , and am of such a congregation , for this is the rule of faith of the reformation . isaac . why then , you must be of the same congregation with the gomarists , luther , calvin , and the others , who believe those which you call execrable doctrines , because they follow scripture as they understand ; and believe those doctrines , because they judge them to be of scriture : you both follow the same rule , one goes one way , and the other another , and both are of the reformation . the church of england understands by scripture , that god is not the author nor cause of sin , that he does not force us to sin ; who doubts but that this is therefore the doctrine of the reformation ? but calvin , brentius , beza , and several others understand by scripture , that god is the cause and author which forces our will to sin ; that man , and the devil , are but gods instruments to commit it : that murthers , incests , blasphemies , &c. are the works of god , that he makes us commit them : and who doubts but this also is the doctrine of the reformation , being scripture as interpreted , by such eminent and sound judgment ? god , says calvin , a directs , moves , inclines and forces the will of man to sin ; insomuch that the power and efficacy of working , is wholly in him ; man , nay , and satan when he impells us , being only gods instruments which he uses for to make us sin. zuinglius , willet , beza , teach the same . sixth dialogue . ismael . i am weary of hearing such horrid blasphemies ; my heart trembles to hear you say , that such abominable tenets may be believed according to our rule of faith and principles of the reformation : i beseech you let me hear no more of such stuff : i conceive very well that mens judgments and consciences are not to be constrain'd to believe or deny , this or that tenet , because the pope , or his infallible , forsooth , church , will have it so . isaac . and must they be constrain'd to deny or believe , because the fallible church of england or france will have it so ? ismael . no , i do not say they must , have patience , and hear me speak a while : i say that scripture must be our rule of faith , and not any pope , or church , or congregation ; and that we are not to be forced by any to believe , but what we understand to be true by scripture ; and that if we judge by scripture , any doctrine to be false , and contrary to gods word , we must not be forced to believe it : but we must not abuse this liberty ; that we should have liberty for to believe or deny supremacy , figurative presence , communion in one or both kinds , and such other inferiour truths controverted among christians ; and that each congregation may in such articles , believe as it understands by scripture to be true , may pass , and it 's practised in our reformed churches ; but that we should run so far , as to have liberty by our rule of faith to believe or deny the fundamental and chief articles of christianity , as the trinity , incarnation , divinity of christ , amp ; c. that liberty ought not to be given : our reformation very wisely and piously permits the lutherans to believe one thing , the presbyterians another , the protestants another , and so of the rest : and all are true reformed children , because each of them believes as they judge by scripture to be true : but the reformation has never given , nor never will give liberty to interpret scripture against the fundamental article of christianity : we must be moderate , and keep our rambling fancies within compass , and if any should judge and interpret scripture in favour of any scandalous and abominable tenets against christianity and good manners , he must be checked and not commended . this moderation the church of england uses , and will never permit to the contrary . isaac . i perceive a great deal of popish blood to run in your veins , and that if you and your church of england , were in power at the beginning of our reformation , we should never have had a luther , calvin , beza , or such other noble and renowned reformers . by what i gather from your discourse , i do not see the breadth of an inch's difference betwixt the church of rome , and you and your church of england , for the church of rome will not stick to grant , that gods word alone is her rule of faith , but so that none must believe any sense of it , but as she believes it , nor interpret any text , but receive her interpretation of it . the church of england has scripture for her rule of faith , and gives us liberty for to interpret , understand , and believe some text of it , as each one thinks best ; and so permits presbyterians to deny episcopacy , lutherans to deny figurative presence , &c. and confesses they are all her brethren of the reformation , but she will give no liberty at all for to interpret other texts , but all must understand them as she does , or all must hereticks and damn'd men ? no , that text my father , and i are one , must be interpreted to signifie the unity in nature of the father and son , as the church of england believes , none must interpret it otherwise : so that the difference betwixt the popish church and that of england , is , the first gives us no liberty at all , the second gives us some liberty , the first robs us of all ; the second but the one half . the rule of faith in popery is scripture as interpreted by the pope and councils ; the rule of faith in england ; as to some articles is scripture as interpreted by the church of england ; and as to other articles , scripture as each person of sound judgment understands it , and thus protestants are but half papists , and half reformed , and both these ingredients will never make a good compound . let any unbyass'd and impartial man judge if the church of england proceeds justly in this : for if our rule of faith be scripture , as each person of sound judgment understands it , as she mentions in her 39. articles ; and as the whole reformation believes , if we are not to be constrained , to believe any church , council , or mans sense of scripture , if we do not judge by the word of god it 's true , by what authority , rule or reason , can the church of england give me liberty to understand and believe some texts as i please , and deny me liberty for to understand and believe others , as i judge by scripture they ought to be understood ? i pray observe well this discourse ; here are luther , calvin , beza , zuinglius , and our other first reformers ; they interpret some texts against the doctrine of rome , and others against the doctrine of the church of england . they are praised for the first , and esteemed apostolical reformers , because without any regard of what the church of rome said , they freely taught and believed what they judged by scripture to be true ; why must not they be praised and esteemed true reformers also , for not regarding what the church of england or any other says , but teach the impossibility of gods commandments , the sufficiency of faith alone , and all those other tenets which you so much mislike , since they judge by scripture that to be the true doctrine ? are they bound to submit their judgments to the church of england , more than to that of rome ? ismael . but in those tenets they do not only contradict the church of england , but all christian churches and congregations ; for all will say those are wicked and scandalous . doctrines . isaac . and if they judge by scripture that those tenets are not such , but found and good doctrine , may not they believe them , tho' all the world and ten worlds did gainsay them ? is not scripture our rule of faith , and are we to regard what any church or all churches say , further than we find by scripture that they say well ? but being these tenets , which you call horrid blasphemies displease you , i 'll change my discourse ; and because i see you are popishly inclin'd , i will shew you how by the principles of our reformation , you can be as good a papist as the pope ; one principle , excepted , wherein you must dissent from the church of rome , if you intend to remain a true reformed child . ismael . you promise too much , and more than i desire to know , i don't desire to have any communication with the pope ; i know by the writings of our authors what kind of beast he is . isaac . by your favour , you may believe the popes are worthy , honest , and godly men : many doctors of our reformation , and our travellers to the court of rome give this testimony of them . you may also believe , that popes and cardinals are knaves and atheists , who look on scripture as a romance , and deny the incarnation of christ , for calvin says l so , and would never have said it , if it had not been true : but beware not to speak so in rome , or they 'll lodge you where honest taylor the quaker was ; nor in spain , or they 'll stop your mouth with an inquisition faggot . ismael . i care not what the pope or cardinals are ; but i would gladly know , what religion and congregation you are of , for whereas you are my immediate instructer , it behoves me to know what religion you have . isaac . as to my religion , i doubt not but that my readers will be divided in their judgments of me ; if a papist reads me , he 'll swear i am an atheist ; but i hope he will not pretend to be infallible as his pope : if a protestant , he 'll say i am a papist , and that my drift is to cast dirt upon his church ; the honest quaker will say , i am a profane man ; others perhaps will say , i am of no religion , but a despiser of all ; and our congregations are so uncharitable that likely none will accept of me , because i say all religions are very good : a sad thing that a man must be hated for speaking well of his neighbours , and that each one must have all the world to be naught but himself : this then is my religion , to suffer persecution for justice and truth ; to render good for evil , to bless those who curse me , and speak well of all congregations , whilst they speak all evil against me : reflect well upon what i discoursed hitherto , and you will find , i am as great a lover of the reformation as they who may think me it's enemy : and read my following discourse , and you will find i love popery as well as the reformation : the spirit of god makes no exceptions of persons . ismael . you promised to prove by the principles of the reformation , that we may believe all the tenets of popery , and remain still of the reformation : how can this be ? isaac . you remember i excepted one principle of popery , wherein you must necessarily dissent from them : and if you deny this one principle , you may believe all their other tenets as well as the pope , and be as good a child of the reformation as luther . ismael . what principle is this , which you seem to make the only destinctive sign of a reformed , from a papist ? isaac . listen a while : a papist is not a papist because he believes purgatory , transubstantiation , indulgences , and the rest of popish tenets , but because he believes them upon the testimony of the pope and church , because they assure him they are revealed truths : if a papist did say , i believe these tenets , because i my self do judge by scripture , that they are revealed , and not because the pope and church say they are , he would be no papist . the papist believes the mystery of the trinity , the incarnation and passion of christ , the protestant believes the same mysteries , yet the one is a papist and no protestant , the other is a protestant and no papist . and why ? because the papist believes them upon the testimony of the pope and church ; the protestant believes them upon the testimony of gods written word . believe then whatever you please of popery , provided you believe it ; because you judge by scripture it 's true , and not because the pope or the church says it ; you 'll never be a papist but a perfect reformed . ismael . if this discourse be solid , you may hedge in all the articles of popery into our reformation . isaac . if you peruse the works of our reformed doctors , you 'll hardly find any article of popery , but has been judged by many , or some of our best reformed doctors , to be the true doctrine of scripture ; and whereas any doctrin which any person of sound judgment understands by scripture to be the true , may be justly called the doctrin of the reformation ; it follows that hardly is there any article of popery , for which we see so many persecutions against subjects , and such troubles in our parliaments , but is truly the doctrin of the reformation . ismael . shew me some examples of this . isaac . the veneration of relicks and saints dead bones , is generally believed by us to be meer popery and superstition , therefore we made no store of luther and calvins bones , tho we know them to be as great saints as any in the popish church : but veneration of relicks and saints bones , is the doctrin of our reformation ; for whatever is set down and commended by our common-prayer-book , must be undoubtedly esteemed our reformed doctrin and practice , and our common-prayer-book , aprinted since our kings happy restauration , in it's kalendar sets down a day to the translation of s. edward king of saxons body in the month of june , and dedicates another to the translation of the bodies of st. martin and swithin , in the month of july . the veneration and use of the sign of the cross , is flat popery in the judgment of all our congregations ; yet any reformed child may laudably and piously use it ; whereas our common-prayer book in the administration of baptism , commands the minister to use it , saying , we sign him with the sign of the cross , in token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed , to confess the faith of christ crucified , and manfully to fight under his bannar against sin , the world and the devil . and in our kalender , printed since his majesties restauration , it 's called the holy cross . our congregations generally believe , it 's popery to keep holy-days ( except the sabbath day ) and saints days ; to fast in lent , vigils commanded , ember-days , and fridays ; and all this is recommended to us in our common-payer book , and the minister is commanded , in the administration of the lords supper , to publish the holy-days of the week , and exhort us to fast ; and surely , he is not commanded to teach , or exhort us to any thing , but to the doctrin of the reformation : it 's true , the students of our colledges of oxford and cambridge , are much troubled with scruples in this point : these pauperes de lugduno , are compelled to fast all fridays throughout the year ; and it 's not hunger that makes them complain , but tenderness of conscience , because they fear it's popery . it 's a popish errour , we say to believe that pennance , or our penal works of fasting , alms-deeds , or corporal austerities , can avail and help for the remission of our sins , and satisfying gods justice : no , we say , penal works serve for nothing , all is done by repentance ; that 's to say , by sorrow of heart for having offended god. this is the doctrin of danaeus , willit , junius and calvin , who says , francis , dominick , bernard , antony , and the rest of popish monks and fryers , are in hell for their austerities and penal works for all that , you may very well believe ; and it 's the doctrin of the reformation , that pennance and penal works , do avail for the remission of our sin , and are very profitable to the soul ; for , our common-prayer book in the commination against sinners , says thus , in the primitive church , there was a godly discipline , that at the beginning of lent , such as were notorious sinners , were put to open pennance , and punish'd in this world , that their souls may be saved in the day of the lord. and our common-prayer books wishes that this discipline were restored again ; and surely it does not wish that popery were restored ; therefore it 's no popery to say that pennance , or penal works , do satisfie for our sins in this world , and avail to save us in the other . ismael . i know many of our congregation mislike much our common-prayer book , for these popish-tenets ; but what do you say of the grand errours of popery ? can a man be a true child of the reformation , and yet believe the popes supremacy ? deny the kings supremacy ; believe transubstantiation and communion in one kind ; are these tenets the doctrin of the reformation , or consistent with its principles ? isaac . the kings supremacy is undoubtedly the doctrin of the reformation , because it 's judged by the church of england to be of scripture , yet not only the quakers , presbyterians , anabaptists , and other congregations , judge it 's not of scripture , but as erroneous a tenet as that of the popes supremacy ; calvin 6. amos , says , they were unadvised people and blasphemers , who raised king henry the vii . so far as to call him the head of the church ; but also that no civil magistrate can be the head of any particular church , is the doctrin of the centuriators , cent . sept . pag. 11. of cartwright , viretus , kemnitius , and many others ; who doubts then but that in the principles and doctrin of the reformation , you may deny the kings supremacy , tho' the church of england believes it . the popes supremacy is the doctrin of popery , who doubts it ? but it 's also the doctrin of the reformation , for many of our eminent doctors have judged it to be the doctrine of scripture , as whitgift a who cites calvin and musculus for this opinion ; but it 's needful we relate some of their express words , i do not deny , says luther , b but the bishop of rome , is , has been , and ought to be first of all ; i believe , he is above all other bishops , it 's not lawful to deny his supremacy : melancthon c says no less , that the bishop of rome is above all the church , that it is his office to govern , to judge in controversies , to watch over the priests , to keep all nations in conformity and unity of doctrin : somaisius , d the pope of rome has been without controversie the first metropolitan in italy , and not only in italy , nor only in the west , but in all the world , the other metropolitans have been chief in their respective districts , but the pope of rome has been metropolitan and primate , not only of some particular diocess , but of all , grotius e has expresly the same doctrin , and proves this supremacy belongs to the pope de jure divino . i pray consider if these doctors be not men of sound judgment , and of eminent learning and credit in our reformation , and if our doctrin be scripture as such men understand it , consider , i say , with what justice can this doctrin be called popery more than reformed doctrin . as for transubstantiation , it contains two difficulties ; first , if the body of christ be really in the sacrament ; and this real presence , the lutherans defend to be the doctrin of scripture , as well as the papists , why then should it be called popish , more than reformed doctrin ? the second is , if the substance of bread be in the sacrament together with christ's body : lutherans say it is , papists say it is not , but that there is a transubstantiation , or change of the whole substance of bread , into the body of christ ; but hear what luther f says of this that we call popish doctrin ; i give all persons liberty to believe in this point , what they please , without hazard of their salvation , either that the bread is in the sacrament of the altar , or that it is not ? would luther have given this liberty if transubstantiation had not been the doctrin of the reformation as well as any other ? calvin also and beza h affirm , that luthers doctrin of the co-existence of christ's . body and the bread , is more absurd than the popish doctrin of the existence of the body alone ; if therefore we be true reformed , and safely believe the doctrin of luther , which is the most absurd ; much more will we be of the reformation , by believing that of the papists which is less . communion in one kind , is the doctrin of the reformation , no less than communion in both ; for besides that luther says , i they sin not g against christ who use one kind only , seeing christ has not commanded to use both ; and again , k though it were an excellent thing to use both kinds in the sacrament ; and christ has commanded nothing in this as necessary , yet it were better to follow peace and unity , than to contest about the kinds , but also melancthon l who in the opinion of luther surpasses all the fathers of the church , expresly teaches the same doctrin : and the church of england statute i. edward vi. command , that the sacrament be commonly administr'd in both kinds , if necessity does not require otherwise ; mark , he says , but commonly , and that for some necessity it may be received in one ; lastly , the sufficiency of one kind in the sacrament , is plainly set down by our reformed church of france , in her ecclesiastical discipline , printed at saumur , chap. 12. art. 7. the minister must give the bread in the supper to them , who cannot drink the cup , provided it be not for contempt . and the reason is because there are many who cannot endure the taste of wine ; wherefore it often happens among them , that some persons , do take the bread alone ; and truly if some of our ministers in england , do not give better wine than they are accustomed , who very irreverently serve that holy table with naughty trash , it 's much to be feared , that our flock will also petition to be dispenc'd with in the cup ; because there are some of so delicate palats , that they cannot endure the taste of bad wine . now , you may admire the injustice of the papists in condemning our reformed doctrin and doctors as hereticks , whereas those tenets are believed by many of us , as well as by them ; and the groundless severity of our congregations in exclaiming against that doctrin ; it being the doctrin of the reformation , whereas so many eminent men of our own , judge it to be of scripture . ismael . whereas i see people persecuted by the church of england for these tenets , i can hardly be perswaded they are the doctrin of the reformation : at our next meeting we will persue this discourse , the bell rings for morning prayers , a dieu . seventh dialogue . isaac . you come from church , as i guess by the common-prayer book i see in your hand , i pray let me see the kalender of it , if it be a la mode nouvelle , which was made by the church of england , since his majesties restauration . ismael . why ? have you met any thing in it , which shocks you ? isaac . shock me ? no doctrin or practice of any congregation , or man of sound judgment of our church can shock me ; you know , i plead for liberty to believe and practise as each one judges by scripture to be true and good . but i observe in your kalender , you have a day consecrated to st. ann in the month of july ; i would gladly know , what ann this is , which the church of england honours so much ? ismael . it 's ann the mother of the virgin mary . isaac . it 's possible ? i thought it was ann bolein the mother of our virgin elizabeth : i am sure the church of england , is more obliged to her , than to the other : but as you have put here the mother of the virgin mary , why did not you put in also elizabeth mother of the great baptist ; and the angel gabriel , as well as michael ? ismael , i know not indeed . isaac . nor do i know , if it be not , because that elizabeth and gabriel made the popish ave maria , as scripture relates ; but can you tell , as the church of england put in your kalender , st. george , st. andrew and st. david patrons of england , scotland and wales ; why did not she put in st. patrick patron of ireland ? ismael . i can't tell , what may be the reason , think you ? isaac . i know not , if it be not that he forfeited his place for his purgatory ; for tho the others were as deep in popery as he , ( if we believe the papists ) but the parliament pass'd an act of indemnity for england , scotland and wales , after the kings return to his kingdoms ; and thereby the sin of popery was forgiven to their patrons , and no act of indemnity was past for ireland , whereby patrick is still guilty ; if it be not , that the seven champions of christendom tell us st. patrick was st. george his footman , and it was not thought good manners , to put him in the same rank with his master . ismael . for shame , if not for pitty , forbear . i cannot endure to fully sacred things with profane ralleries ; the kalender is a holy institution of the church , and ought to be reverenc'd . isaac . and so is episcopacy , surplices , bells , organs , and corner caps ; yet i hope you will give presbyterians , anabaptists , quakers , &c. leave to laugh at them , and be still as good children of the reformation as you : if you esteem them to be sacred and holy , reverence and honour them , i commend you for it , if others judge otherwise let them follow their humour ; each one as he fancies , says the fellow kissing his com ; this is the holy liberty of the reformation , scripture as each one understands it . ismael . let us return to our last discourse ; how is it possible , that those tenets of popery , ●…ould be the doctrin of the reformation , where●● we see the church of england so severely per●●ecute the professors of them ? isaac . do you think a doctrin is not of the reformation , because it 's denyed by the church of england ? or because she persecutes the pro●essors of it ? do not they persecute all non-confor●ists , as well as popery ? persecution is no proof of a doctrin to be bad ; it 's but the effect of a blind zeal armed with power : for to know cer●ainly if a doctrin be of the reformation , you must try it by our test or rule of faith , which is the written word of god , and whatever any man of sound judgment , of a sincere and humble heart judges to be contained in scripture , or ●n indubitable consequence out of it ; that man , may believe that doctrin , let all others judge of it as they list , and by so believing will be a true child of the reformation ; wherefore since that the church of france , that of england in edward the vi 's time , luther , melancthon , grotius , and the other authors i quoted , do judge transubstantiation , popes supremacy , and communion in one kind to be the doctrin of scripture ; we must call it the doctrin of the reformation ; and if you judge as they did , you may believe the doctrin and be still of the reformation , as well as they . ismael . can you shew me any other tenet of popery , which you can call the doctrin of the reformation . isaac . alas ! you can hardly shew me any tenet of popery , but what is it's doctrin ; what doctrin more popish than that of confession and absolution from sins ? yet it 's as truly the doctrin of the reformation , as figurative presence : for not only a lobechius , b altamerus , c sacerius , and d melancthon says , it 's a sacrament : but the church of england in our common-prayer book , declares that priests have not only the power of declaring their sins to be forgiven to the penitents , but also the power of forgiving them ; and sets down the form of absolution , which the minister is to use , our lord jesus christ , who left power to the church to absolve all sinners which truly repent , of his mercy forgive thee and thine offences ; and i by his authority committed unto me , do absolve thee from all thy sins ; the minister of the diocess of of lincoln in their survey of the book of common prayers , checkt this doctrine as popery and petitioned to have it blotted out ; but could not prevail ; whereby we are given to understand , it 's the doctrine of the reformation . it 's popery , we say to call extream uuction , confirmation , and holy order of priest-hood , sacraments : and who can justly deny all this to be the doctrine of the re-formation ? for calvin e says , i confess , the disciples of christ did use ex●ream vnction as a sacrament ; i am not , says he , of the opinion of those , who judge it was only a me●●cine for corporal diseases : calvin f also , and with him our common prayer book and all our divines say , a sacrament is nothing else , but a visible sign of the invisible grace we receive by ●t ; and they say with g pouel , h hooker and others , that this definition fits exactly confirmation , wherefore the ministers of the diocess of lincoln checkt the common prayer book , for giving the definition of a sacrament to confirmation . i melancthon , k bilsom , l hooker and m calvin expresly teach , that the order of priesthood , is a sacrament . and when men of so eminent judgment of our reformation teach this to be the doctrine of scripture , who doubts but that it is of the reformation . ismael . by this , you destroy the doctrine of the reformation of two sacraments only . is . destroy it ? god forbid : because the church of england says , there are but two sacraments , i say it 's the doctrin of the reformation , there are but two , and because so many eminent men judge by scripture there are more , i say it 's the doctrin of the reformation there are more ▪ that 's to say six , baptism , confirmation , eucharist , pennance , extream unction and holy order : and very likely our bishops and ministers ▪ for their wives sake , will not stick to grant that matrimony also is a sacrament . ismael . but can you say , that prayers to saints and images , prayer for the dead , and purgatory , are not meer popery , and in no wise the the doctrine of reformation ? isaac . without doubt , those tenets are popery but all the world knows , the lutherans use images in their churches and pray before them ; and the holy synod of charenton has declared , as was said in our first dialogue , that the lutherans have nothing of superstition or idolatry in their manner of divine worship ; this is also the doctrine n of jacobus , andreas , o brachmanus , p kemnitius , luther and brentius quoted by beza , q and why should not a doctrine , judged by such eminent men to be of scripture , be called the doctrin of the reformation ? prayers for the dead and purgatory is popery confessedly ; but alas ! it is taught expresly by vrbans , regius , r bucer , ſ zuinglius , t melancthon , u luther , x the common-prayer book in king edward's time printed 1549. and many others of our learned doctors , and what can you call more properly the doctrine of the reformation , than what such men teach to be the doctrine of scripture ? and though our brethren , quakers , anabaptists , presbyterians and protestants judge prayers to angels and saints to be nothing else but popery : yet our common-prayer book has the same collect or prayer to angels in st. michael's day , that the popish mass book has , and desires that the angels may succour and defend us on earth ; and prayers to , and intercession of saints is taught by luther , y bilneus and latimer quoted by fox , z and consequently it 's the doctrine of the reformation . ismael . if all these popish articles may be safely believed by the reformation , and be the doctrine of our reformed church , as well as of popery ; what difference then betwixt us and popery ; or why are we call'd a reformation of popery , or why did we separate from them ? isaac . i have told you already , that our difference from popery , is not , because we must deny what they believe , for we believe as well as they the unity and trinity of god , the incarnation of his son , &c. but in this , that the papists believe , because the pope and church says , this is true revealed doctrine , but we believe not because any church , pope , or doctor says so , but because we our selves judge by scripture it is so ; for if a papist did say , i do not believe this is a revealed truth , because the pope and church says it is , but because i find by scripture it is ; he would be no papist ; believe then whatever doctrine you will , either popery , judaism , protestancy , arianism , or what else you please , provided you judge by scripture it is true , and that you believe it , not because this or that church , congregations or doctors believe it , but because your self judges it to be true , you 'l be a true child of the reformation : and this is the reason why we are called a reformation and why we separated from them , because they would have us take for our rule of faith scripture as interpreted by them , and believe not what we judge to be the doctrine of scripture , but what they judge ; and this is also the reason why presbyterians are jealous with the church of england ; why anabaptis●s forsake presbyterians ; why these are forsaken by quakers , because each one would have the world judge as they do , and persecute and trouble one another , which is quite against the spirit of the reformation , for whereas our rule of faith is no church , congregation , or man , but scripture as each one understands it ; it follows that by our principles every one must he permitted to believe whatever he pleases , and by so doing , he will be a true child of the reformation . ismael . the church of england , nor any of our congregations , will never believe any of those popist tenets . isaac . the time may come that they may believe them all , and be still as good reformers as now they are ? for if the pope and his church should to morrow deny and excommunicate those tenets , which now they so steadfastly believe , ( and i hope they will some day , ) then it would be a pious and virtuous action in all reformed children , to believe them all , as much as now they deny them : and let us pretend what other reasons we please , but it 's very certain that the strongest reason we can have to deny those articles , is because the pope and his church believes them , and consequently , if the popish church would but deny them , we might and ought to believe them , you will think this a paradox ; but listen to our apostolical and divine luther : a if a general council , says he , did permit priests to marry , it would be a singular marke of piety , and sign of godliness , in that case to take concubines , rather than to marry in conformity to the decree of the council , i would in that case command priests not to marry under pain of damnation . and again he says , b if the council should decree communion in both kinds ; in contempt of the council , i would take one only or none . see these words of luther , quoted by our learned hospinian , c and jewel , d and see it 's not only my doctrine but of great luther , that in case the pope and council deny all the tenets they now believe ; we may , and it will be a pious godly action to believe them , and make as many acts of parliament for them , as now we have against them . but what 's the matter ? methinks you become pale , something troubles you , speak , what is it ? ismael . it 's the horror i conceive against your discourse , my countenance cannot be in a calm , when my mind is in such a storm and confusion : pursue no more , you said enough that i should curse the day i have ever seen you , or heard that which you call holy liberty , which is but a prostitution of consciences a prophanation of all that is sacred , and an open gap to all impiety in doctrine and manners : but i hope the lord has given me that profound respect and attach to our holy reformation , that i shall not be beaten from it by all your engines , able to inspire a contempt and hatred of it to any weak brother , for who would live a moment in it , if such impious tenets , such scandalous and blasphemous doctrines were of it , or were unavoidable sequels out of its principles : no , no the principles of the reformed church are sound and orthodox , and no doctrine can follow from them , but what 's pure and true . isaac . let me tell you i have as tender a love for the reformation as you : and i will maintain the holy liberty i assert , cannot justly be called a prostitution of consciences ; for , you dare not deny but this is an orthodox and sound principle , that our rule of faith is scripture as each person of sound judgment understands it ; that it is lawful for each person of sound judgment to read it , to give his judgment of the true sense of it , and to believe and hold that sense of it , which he thinks in his conscience to be true ; is there any prostitution of consciences in this doctrin ? or is it not the doctrin of our reformation ? ismael . all this is true , the prostitution of consciences lyes not there , but in the scandalous and blasphemous tenets , which you pretend that follow out of the rule of faith. isaac . but you wrong the reformation in calling such tenets blasphemies and scandals : for since our rule of faith is scripture , as each person of sound judgment understands it ; if this rule of faith be good and sound , if it be religious and holy , any doctrin that is conformable to this rule , must be good , sound , religious and holy ; this being our rule of faith and manners , it 's clearer than day light , that all and each other tenet which i rehearsed in all my former discourses , are conformable to our rule of faith ; for our rule is scripture as each man of sound judgment understands it . our doctrin therefore must be , what any person of sound judgment understands to be the doctrin of scripture : this is an evident sequel out of that principle , and whereas there is not one tenet of all those which i rehearsed , whether they concern doctrin or manners ; but was judged by the doctors , which i cited for it , to be the doctrine of scripture ; it follows unavoidably , that there is not one tenet of them but is the doctrin of the reformation : therefore you must be forced to either of these two ; either to say that our rule of faith , by which such doctrines are warranted , is naught , wicked and scandalous , and leads to a prostitution of consciences and manners ; or that all those tenets , are good , sound , pious , and no prostitution or corruption of our consciences : for , pick and chuse out the doctrin which you think to be the most wicked and scandalous of all those i rehearsed ; you cannot deny , but that it was taught by the author i quoted for it and judged by him , to be the doctrin of scripture . and if no doctor hitherto had believed it , you or i , or some other person of sound judgment , may judge it to be the doctrine of scripture ; either of both , then you must be constrained to grant . or that the doctrin of the reformation , is not what each person of sound judgment understands to be the doctrin and sense of scripture , which is as much as to say , that our rule of faith must not be scripture as we understand it , but that we must believe against our own judgment and conscience , what others say is the doctrin and sense of scripture : or you must grant that all and each of those tenets i rehearsed , is the doctrin of the reformation , tho you , or this or that man may judge them to be blasphemies and scandals . ismael . i confess our rule of faith in the reformation is scripture as each person understands it ; for all our reformed churches , with the church of england , in her 39 articles , do give us this rule of faith. i confess consequently out of this principle , that we must not believe what doctrin or sense of scripture others judge to be true and orthodox , if we do not our selves judge it to be such , for we must not be forced to believe , against our judgments : lastly , i confess we may safely believe , whatsoever doctrins we seriously judge to be the doctrin of scripture , but provided , that such a tenet or doctrin be not plainly against scripture , and be not plain and down-right impiety and blasphemy . isaac . and in case you , or the church of england , rome , france , or germany , judge a doctrin to be blasphemous and against scripture , and luther , or calvin , or i , or another , judge it is good doctrin and conformable to scripture , to which judgment must i stand ? must i believe yours against my conscience and knowledge ? or must not i believe my own ? is it not the principle and practice of our reformation , that i must believe what i judge in my conscience to be scripture , and not what others judge , if they judge the contrary ? when luther began the reformation , did not almost all christians and the whole church believe purgatory and prayers to saints to be the doctrine of scripture ? and did not he very commendably deny it against them all , because he judged by scripture it was not ? will a presbyterian believe episcopacy , because the church of england says it 's the doctrine of scripture ? no , but deny it because himself judges it is not . ismael . it 's true , each one may lawfully believe what himself judges to be the doctrine of scripture , provided he be a godly , well intentioned man , humble and meek in spirit : provided secondly that what he understands to be the sence and doctrine of scripture , be not absurd and impious in the judgment of all the rest of the faithful : for let a man be ever so learned and godly ; if he gives an interpretation of scripture which is denied by all the church , he must not be followed . isaac . your first proviso is very good , and i hope you will meet no doctor of all those i quoted for those tenets , which you call blasphemies , who was not a learned , godly , humble , and well intentioned man , who will be so bold as to deny it of luther , calvin , beza zuinglius , & c. ? your second proviso is not just , and in it you overthrow the whole reformation ; and our rule of faith ; for this being as you granted ; scripture as each person of sound judgment understands it ; whatever interpretation or sense any man of sound judgment understands to be of scripture , he may safely and piously believe it , tho' all the rest of the world should judge it to be impious and blasphemous , otherwise our rule of faith , must not be scrip●ure as we understand it , but as it is understood by others : and whereas no tenet of all those i rehearsed , but was judged to be the sense and doctrin of scripture , by some of those eminent doctors i quoted , it follows they might have safely believed them ; and if you or i judge as they did , we may also believe as they did , and be still of the reformation . ismael . it 's wicked and pernicious to say any particular person may believe his own private sense and interpretation of scripture , if it be judged by all others to be naught ; and therefore the church of england prudently and wisely puts a stop and bridle to the extravagant and rambling imaginations of particular persons ; they must conform themselves , and believe but what the church judges may be safely believed . isaac . pray , sir , since when is it commendable to constrain mens judgments to believe , not what each one thinks best , but what the church thinks may be safely believed , was this commendable in the beginning of our reformation , when our blessed reformers began to teach their private judgments against the church then establish'd ? if it was , then the church of rome is to be commended , for persecuting and excommunicating our first reformers ; and this was not , nor is not commendable in the church of rome , why is it commendable in the church of england ? this is a piece of popery , whereof the church of england is guilty , and for which all our congregations are jealous of her : be it known to you , our other congregations , lutherans , calvinists , anabaptists , &c. are as truly and godly children of the reformation as the church of england ; and they will not submit to that popish tyranny , nor suffer any curb to their judgments , but will have our rule of faith to be but scripture , and each one to understand , and believe it , as he thinks best in the lord. ismael . i confess other congregations will admit no such curb , nor bridle to their judgments , but follow scripture as they understand it ; but the church of england has a reverent regard for the sense and interpretation of it given by primitive ages , fathers and councils , and that we prefer before the private interpretations of particular persons . isaac . and just so saith the popish church to luther and our blessed reformers , and if that had been well done , we should have had neither protestancy nor any other reformation : but you confess at least , that the rule of faith in all other congregations , is but scripture , as each person understands it , and each person may consequently believe his own sence of it , and deny the sence of any other if he does not like it : then you must confess , that in all other congregations , except the church of england , any reformed child may believe any sense and doctrine which any person of sound judgment judges to be scripture , if himself likes it , though all the rest of the world may think it naught ; and whereas you cannot deny , but that all and each doctor quoted by me for those tenets , which you call blasphemies , were sound and able judgments ; you must confess that it is a necessary sequel out of their rule of faith , that in all other congregations they may piously and safely believe all those tenets , and be still true children of the reformation . ismael . i confess , if they speak coherently and stand to their principles , they may believe them safely ; but as i hate those blasphemous tenets , labbor and detest also that principle and rule of faith of other congregations , from which such tenets are unavoidable sequels . isaac . good ismael , you forget what you have hitherto all along avowed , and you are quite astray from the doctrin of the reformation . you have often granted me , that our rule of faith is scripture , not as this or that congregation , doctor , or church , but as each person of sound judgment understands it ; and now you tell me you hate and detest that rule , because that out of it , there follow strange and blasphemous tenets ? you say , the sence and interpretation of the primitive ages , church and fathers must be preferred before the interpretation of any private person , or congregation , and what think you of our whole reformation , and particularly of our 39 articles of the church of england , which allow no other rule of faith , but scripture as each person of sound judgment understands it ? what say you of luther , calvin , beza , and the rest of our first reformers , who preferred their own private sence and interpretation of scripture , before that of the whole church ? what say you to the presbyterians , who prefer their own sense and interpretation of the bible , before that of the church of england ? what say you of all the congregations of the reformed church , each one of which , holds its sense and doctrin of scripture , different from all the rest ? i grant , there ought to be a respect for the judgment and interpretation of the text , given by the primitive church and fathers ; but if a doctor , or man of sound judgment , replenisht with gods spirit , reads scripture with an humble heart , and pure intention , and judges by it , that bigamy is lawful ; that there is no mystery of three persons in one divine nature ; that christ despaired on the cross , &c. tho these doctrines be quite against the judgments of fathers , church , and councils , he may believe them , and be still a true reformed child , because he follows our rule of faith ; if he must deny these articles , because others decry them ; then he must go against his own judgment and conscience , for to conform himself to them , and his rule of faith must not be scripture as each man of sound judgment understands it ; but as the primitive ages , church , and councils understand it ; and this is popery . ismael . prethee , friend isaac , let 's give over : all that your discourse drives at , by what i can perceive , is either to beat me from the reformation , by shewing me the absurdity of its rule of faith ; or oblige me to believe scandalous and blasphemous tenets , necessary sequels out of that rule : i am a child of the reformation , and never will be otherwise . isaac . the lord , who is the searcher of hearts knows , you mis-conster my intentions : how can you say i intend to beat you from the reformation ? do not i insist and perswade you to stick fast to its rule of faith , and acknowledge no other but scripture , as you understand it ? how can you say , i oblige you to believe false and scandalous tenets ? to the contrary , i advise you not to believe them , if you judge by scripture they are false and scandalous : what my discourse drives at , that you should not censure , blame or call any doctrin blasphemous , scandalous , false , or heretical , ( popery excepted , ) for , though you judge by scripture it is not true ; another will judge it to be the true sense and doctrin of the text ; and if he does , he may with a safe conscience believe it , and ought not to be blamed by you or any other for believing it ; if you do not like that doctrin , do not believe it ; but let the other believe as he judges by scripture he may , and let every tub stand on its own bottom . ismael . once more i beseech you give over ; i will not discourse any more with you . isaac , nay , dear ismael , i see you are troubled , and i will not leave you in that perplexity : be pleased to listen to three points i will propose unto you , and you 'll not miss to find satisfaction in either of them . ismael . let 's hear them . isaac . will you believe scripture , as it is interpreted , and in that sense which , the church , councils , and fathers propound unto you ? ismael . i will not be obliged to that , for i may judge by scripture that sence and interpretation of it , to be false and erroneous , and i will not be obliged to believe any thing against my judgment and conscience ; that is popery . isaac . that 's well , in so much you follow the footstepts of luther , calvin , and our first reformers , who would not believe what the church believed in their time , nor regarded what the papists alledged out of the councils and fathers against them , because they held themselves obliged to believe scripture as they understood it , and not as it was understood by others : will you then believe scripture in that sense and interpretation which your self judges to be true , though the church , councils , and all other congregations judge it to be false and erroneous , and give the like liberty to all others . ismael . that 's dangerous ; for it would follow that any man might believe without check or blame , the greatest blasphemies , imaginable , if he judges them to be the sense of the text. isaac . why then , since that the first does not please you , for fear of constraining your judgment papist-like , and the second displeases you , for the scope it gives for to believe any thing , or nothing ; your best way is to lay scripture aside , whereas christ has forgot , or neglected to appoint us some assured means for to know what sense of it he would have us believe . ismael . and what religion shall i profess if i lay scripture aside ? isaac . the same which you have by scripture ; that 's to say , whatever you judge to be the true worship of god : be sure to profess a reverence for scripture and seem to believe it 's the word of god , least you may scandalize weak brethren ; pretend always that your sentiments are grounded upon the text , but betwixt you and god believe whatever you think to be true , worship god as you judge he is to be worshipp'd , and that 's the way to live in peace : do you think but that those noble spirits which they call the wits of england , have a good religion ? in publick they speak reverently of the bible , but we know what they have , and do declare in their private discourses , that it is but a romance , or meer fiction : do you think but that there was a religion in england before it saw gregory ' emissarys , austin and his monks ? what need therefore of a bible for to have religion ? were not the swinfeldians a religious congregation , and of the reformation too , yet they cared not for scripture , but grounded their belief upon gods inspiration and inward speech to the heart ? ismael . if i were not well acquainted with you , and had not very convincing proofs , and signal testimonies of your piety , solid religiosity , and chistianity , i would judge you by this last piece of your discourse , to be an impious atheist or pagan : and i wonder that so good a christian , as i know you to be , should speak so irreverently of the bible , and so much in commendation of paganism as you do : there was indeed a religion in england before they knew what scripture was ; but that religion was paganism , which austin and his companions happily banisht from our land. isaac . happily ? do you call an exchange of paganism for popery ( introduced by austin ) a happiness ? is it nor generally believed in our reformation , and most strongly proved of late , by that incomparable wit and pen-man , doctor stillingfleet , that popery has as much of idolatry as paganism : our land therefore had in paganism as good a religion as it received by austin in popery : does not this our noble champion , and most of the scribes of the church of england teach , that popery is a saving religion , that we may be saved in the church of rome ? if popery ( notwithstanding it be idolatry as they say ) be a saving religion , how can they deny but that paganism is also a saving religion , what need had our fore-fathers therefore to abandon paganism ? why was it not left in the land ? ismael . whatever may be said of popery , it cannot be denyed , but that christianity is better than paganism : the expulsion therefore of paganism by austin , was a happiness , because by it christianity was introduced , and establisht in our kingdom . isaac . alas , ismael ! if england had been as well informed of the merit of paganism , when first christianity was preached , it had never exchanged the one for the other . ismael . what , not paganism , , which adored a multitude of gods , for christianity which adores but one ? not paganism , which adored jupiter , saturn , venus , &c. who were devils and evil spirits ; or wicked men , who caused themselves to be adored , for christianity , which adores the only true , immortal and eternal deity ? isaac . you speak with the vulgar sort , and believe , as you have been instructed by your ancestors : i confess , the apostles , and ancient doctors of christianity do teach , that the gods of the gentiles were devils or evil spirits ; i confess also , all the christian world since the first preaching of the gospel , was so perswaded , grounded upon scripture , which in several places says , the gods of the gentiles were devils , grounded upon the doctrine of the apostles , and their successors the fathers of the church , and the world being perswaded by the apostles , by the doctors , fathers , and preachers of christianity , that the gods which the pagans adored were but devils , which by soceries , and marvellous works deceived mankind , and made themselves to be adored as gods , all men were ashamed to adore but devils , forsook paganism and embraced christianity . and all was but a meer policy of popery , to cast so much dirt and calumny upon paganism , and make its gods but devils for to introduce and establish christianity ; doctor stillingfleet in his charge of idolatry against the church of rome , pag. 40. and 41. says plainly , that the pagans are charged with more than they were guilty of ; pag. 7. says that jupiter adored by the pagans ; was so far from being an arch-devil , in the opinion of st. paul , that he was the true god , blessed for evermore : that the pagans adored but one supream and omnipotent god which they called jupiter , and which they did believe to be neither a devil , nor a man , but a true , and the first and chiefest of the gods ; and that the rest of the gods , which they adored , they looked upon them as upon inferiour deities , and gave them no other adoration , but such as the papists give to their saints . if therefore the pagans adored the true god under the name of jupiter , and the other gods but as inferior deities , as the papists do their saints ; was it not unjustly done by the ancient fathers and teachers of christianity to have imposed upon the world , and made us believe the pagans adored but devils and evil spirits ? have not the pagans right and justice on their side , for to plead before our wise and religious parliament , that paganism may be restored , or at least tolerated , and jupiter , with the rest of the gods may be adored , as formerly they were ? first because paganism is no more idolatry than popery , as doctor stillingfleet , master burnet , and other reformed writers prove convincingly ; secondly , because that paganism having been banish'd out of our land upon the false information of our first teachers , that it was an adoration of devils , or evil spirits , and wicked debaucht men , who by counterfeited wonders , and cheats , gained the peoples adoration ; since that doctor stillingfleet , mr. burnet , and other reformed writers , will make it out , that the pagans adored no devils , but one true , omnipotent , supreme god , blessed for evermore , which they called jupiter , and the rest of the gods as inferior deities , as papists do their saints , and will prove that the pagans were charged by the first d. doctors of christianity , and by all our ancestors , with more than they were guilty of , why should not paganism be restored again to the land , and heard to speak for its self , and dr. stillingfleet and his zealous companions be licenc'd to plead for them , and for holy jupiter , so foully mis-represented by antiquity , as to be believed an arch-devil , whom dr. stillingfleet will prove to have been , a true god blessed for ever more ? ismael . the more i discourse with you , the more i am perplexed in mind i bid you adue , and do confess i carry with me from your discourse a dislike of what i have been hitherto , an unsettlement in my perswasion , and a compassion of the poor pagans , so unjustly banish'd from our nation , if what doctor stillingfleet says , be true , he is a learned , religious , and diligent searcher into scripture ; the ancient d. drs. and fathers of the church reading scripture , judged and taught , that jupiter was a devil , as well as the rest of the gods which the gentiles adored ; dr. stillingfleet and other reformed d. drs. reading scripture , judge he was no devil , but the the true god blessed for ever more ; any child of the reformation may believe either of both , and put jupiter into our litanies , as well as jesus christ , and offer sacrifice to him as formerly our ancestors did ; for whatever any man of sound judgment judges to be the doctrine of scripture , may be safely believed , and is the doctrine of the reformation : as for my part i see our wise parliament sits now upon a new settlement of government and religion , and i will not resolve upon any religion , until i see what it concludes . if dr. stillingfleet be so zealous as to put in a good word for paganism before that religious assembly , he may find abbetors , and as the parliament cherishes dr. oates for the extirpation of popery , so it may cherish dr. stillingfleet for the introduction of paganism , and the erecting of temples and altars for holy jupiter his true and evermore blessed god ; and if he be successful in this undertaking , as for exchanging presbytery for protestancy , he was promoted to the deanery of st. paul , so by changing christianity for paganism , he may expect to be his holy jupiters high priest , in london capitol , and reign with him everlastingly in the other life , in case he believes there is another . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a42142-e1100 a epist . ad noremb . & in comment . in jo. 6. & 16. matt. theol. calvin . l. 2. fol. 70. c in parva confes . germ. fol. 55. & in colloq . fol. 110. d to. 2. fol. 202. e the kingdom of isra . pag. 9. f acts & mon. pag. 36. lib. 3. c. 5. g catal. estium . pag. 976. & 978. a l. 4. instit . c. 9. b to. 1. e. lit jen. resolut . d in colloq . mensal . fol. 118. e to. 2. wittem . fol. 374 , 375. f in defens . art. reliq . protest . pag. 199. g in his true differ . par . 2. pag. 353. h bouclier de la foy. * matt. 12. ** 2 tim. 2. ‖ jo. 4. a in lib. ad corin. c 11. b in explan . art. 17. c to. 2. de minist . eccles . instit . fol. 369. & lib. de cap. babyl . c. de ordin . & lib. de abroganda missa . d in harm . in matth. c. 26. vers . 64. & in admonad . po●●… . in tract . theolog. pag. 794. e comment . super joan. c. 10. f in act. seiueti pag. 87. g l. con . cenebrat . h in postil . major . in ennarat . evang . domin . trinit . i lib. 2. dial. 2. k harm . in evang. mat. c. 26. vers . 39. and c. 27. vers . 46. & lib. 2. instit . c. 16. sect . 10. & 11. l in luk. par . 2. hom . 65. and in joan. hom . 54. m in march. c. 16. n recogn . pag. 376. o lib. 2. inst . c. 16. fact . 10. and seq . p to. 3 wettemp . in sp . 16. q in ps . 16. r in confes . majori de coena dni . ſ to. 2. in respon . ad confes . luth. fol. 458. t in histor . sacram. par . 2. fol. 75. a dom. 1. adventus , & liber . de proph. christi . b in postil . super evangel . dom. 1. advent . & dom. 26. post trinit . c motives to good works in the epist. dedic . d lib. 3. inst. c. 4. sect. 28. e lib. 4. c. 7. sect. 2. f in locis commun . classe . 5.27 . g to. 2. wittem . de capr . babyl . fol. 74. h de eccl. cont . bellarm conf . 2. quaest . 5. i epist . 2.2 . & 25. k to. 5. wittem . serm . de matrim . & in 1. ad corin. 7 l consil . theol. par . 1 pag. 648. & 134. m in epist . pau ad phil. & in 2. ad tim. 3. n lib 2. dial. 21. o lib de repud . & divort. pag. 223. p canon . generales genuen . 1560. q chap. 13. art 31. r to. 5. wittem . serm . de matrim . ſ to. 5. wittemb . serm . de matrim . t in scriptis anglic. de reg. chr. l. 2. c. 26. & in matth. c. 19. u in consil . theol. par . 1. pag. 648. s . & 134. x dial. 200. & 204. in epist . s. paul. ad tim. 3. y l. 4. inst . c. 19. sect . 37. discip . eccl. c. 13. z serm. de murim . a lib. 4. inst . c. 15. sect . 20. & 21. b act. 27. c can. 29. d lib. 2. eccles . polit. pag. 103. e in tim. c. 50. f in defens . hookeri art . 8. a in praefat. dialog . b serm. de 50. artic. in summa summarum . c in harm . super luc. c. 2. d epitom . cent. 16. par . 2. e tom. 2. cont . catabapt . fol. 10 , f victoria verit . arg : 5 ▪ g in cap. 2. ad gal. h de eccles . cont . bellarm. cont . 2. c. 4. i to. 5. wettem . an . 1554. in epist. ad gal. c. 1. k in apol. cof . c. de concil . l in cap. 2. ad gal. & serm . aug. pag. 204. m in epist . ad gal. c. 1. & 2. & tom. 5. wittemb . an . 1554. fol. 29. n lib. 5. de eccl. polit. sect . 72. o pag. 495. & 273. p acts and mon. pag. 514. q lib. 2. inst . c. 17. sect . 6. r in comment in cap. 2. ad gal. ſ to. 1. proposit . 3. t lib. 2. instit c. 7.5 . u harm . evang. in luc. c. 10 , verse 26. x in synop. papismi pag. 564. y lib. de servo . arbit . cont . erasm . z lib. 3. instit . c. 21. sect . 5. & 7. &c. 22. sect . 11. & cap. 13.1 . a lib. 2. inst . c. 4. sect . 3. & lib. 1. c. 18. sect . 2. & lib. 3. c. 23. sect 4. lo. 1. de deprovid . c. 6. in synops . pag. 563. in manifest . stratag . papist . l 4. inst . c. 7. sect. 27. a in defens . &c. pag. 373.70 . & 395. b in respons . tredecem . propos . c in epist. ad card. belay episc . pariens . d in tract . euchar. ad . p. sarmunm . e in annot. super novum testam . cap. 10. matth. & sape alibi . f to. 1. edit . jonah . l. de cap. babyl . h lib. de caena domini . i lib ▪ de cap. babyl . c. de euchar. g almonit . 2. ad . westph . defens . oxthod . fit . k epist. ad bahemos in declarat . euch. & in serm . de euch. l in concil . theol. ad march. elect. de usu utriusque speciei pag. 141. a in disput . theol. pag. 301. b in concilliat . loc . scrip. loco . 191. c in locis commun . to. 1. de potest eccl. d in apol. conses . aug. art . 13. & lib. pag. 234. e in p. 5. epist . jac. v. 4. f lib. 4. inst . c. 14. sect . 5. g in modest . examin . h in eccl. polit. l. 5. sect . 66. i in locis commun . tit . de numero . sacram. k in perpet . regem . pag. 109. l in eccl. polit. lib. 5. sect . 77. m lib. 4. inst . c. 29. n epit. colloq . montisbel . o in centaur . exercit. theol. pag. 270. p exampar . 4. q in respond . ad acta colloq . montisbel . par . 2. in prefas . r in locis commun . c. 18. & 19. ſ inscrip . angl. pag. 450. t to 1. in eupian . a●t . 90. & ar● . 60. u in apolog. confess aug. x to 1. wittem . in resol . de indul. concl . 15. epist . ad spalat . z acts & mon. pag. 462. & 312. a to. germ. fol. 214. b de formula missa & to. 3. germ. c in histor . s● . part . 2. fol. 13. d in replis ad hardingum . pax vobis, or ghospell and libertie against ancient and modern papists. by e.g. preacher of the word. dedicated to the right honble the lord halyfax griffith, evan, a.m., minister of alderly. 1679 approx. 218 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 96 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2007-01 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a42139 wing g1990 estc r215168 99827126 99827126 31540 this keyboarded 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a42139) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 31540) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1886:23) pax vobis, or ghospell and libertie against ancient and modern papists. by e.g. preacher of the word. dedicated to the right honble the lord halyfax griffith, evan, a.m., minister of alderly. [20], 166 p. s.n.], [london? : anno 1679. e.g. = evan griffith. place of publication conjecture by cataloger. reproduction of original in the bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of 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healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion pax vobis or ghospell and libertie against ancient and modern papists . by e.g. preacher of the word . dedicated to the right hon ble the lord halyfax . stand fast in the libertie , wherewith christ hath made vs free , and be not entangl'd again with the yoke of bondage ( popery ) gal. c. 5. v. 1. anno 1679. the preface to the children of the reformation . be not concern'd to know whose hand it is which holds the link , but follow the light it gives : reach your hand to receive this treatise , which marks the shore , where the ark of our reformation , shatter'd by a deluge of troubles , may rest ; which is a holy liberty to all and each person to believe or not believe ; act or not act , as he pleases with a safe conscience acording the principles of our reformation . we generally lament the convulsions which shake our church and state , through the diversity of opinions , professed by our several congregations ; som remedies have bin applied to bring vs to peace and conformity ; but all have proved ineffectual : som of our drs judge , nothing can cure our disease , but a general council or supream authority , to whose sentence we should all submit ; but this , besides that it is popish , to grant any human power for to oblige our consciences against our jugdments in matters of religion ; is but an imaginary remedy for a real evil : for , it 's not in the reformation as in popery ; in this there is a supream authority for to convene the pastors of diverse kingdoms to a general council ; in our reformation there is none : popery believes its councils and popes infallible ; and therefore they cannot but acquiesce , because an infallible sentence leaves no doubt of the truth ; but in the reformation , all councils and human authority are fallible ; and consequently their decisions may be doubted of , and we are never certain of the truth . others judge , the remedy of our disease can be no other , but pills of persecution , penal laws , acts of parliament , ordinances of synods , forcing men to conformity ; but this has proved not only destructive to the peace of the church , but has shockt the very foundation of our reformation : for if we must believe under severe penalties what the state and ecclesiastical authority will have vs believe ; then scripture must be no more our rule of faith , but the state and church , which tells me what i must believe ; and we must be deprived of the right and power of interpreting scripture and believing it in the sense we think it to be the true ; and yet our whole reformation is cemented and was first raised vpon this holy libertie ; that every one should reade scripture , interpret it , and believe whatever he thought was the true sense of it ; without any compulsion or constraint for to believe either church , state , universitie or dr. if wee did not judge by scripture his doctrin was true . if prudence had as great a share in our conduct , as passion , wee should regulat our future by the effects of our past actions ; and if wee will cast an eye back to the transactions of later years , we will find this compulsion of mens consciences has produced but confusion in our church , and fatal disturbances in our state ; contrarywise , never did our reformation enjoy more peace , shin'd with more lustre , and held its course with more happiness , than when none was molested for his profession , but euery one had libertie to believe and teach , what doctrin and sense each one thought to be the most conformable to scripture . confider the infancy of the reformation , when god raised luther to repair the ruins of the church ; how of a suddain it spred it self in germany , france , holland , poland , scotland and england , and by what means ? was it not by takeing away all constraint of mens consciences ( vsed then only in the popish church ) our blessed reformers takeing to themselves and giving to others , a holy libertie for to teach and believe what ever they judged to be the doctrin and true sense of scripture , tho it should be against the received opinion of the councils , church , universities and drs. ? look into the reign of edward the vi. then , did our reformation florish in england ; and was miraculously propagated by the liberty of martin bucer , cranmer , ochinus , peter martyr and others in teaching calvinism , lutheranism , zuinglianism by scripture as every one vnderstood it : descend to the reing of queen marie ; then , the light of the ghospel was eclypsed , because the flock was again popishly compelled to believe , not what they judged by scripture to be true ; but what the pope and church judged was such : com down a step lower to queen elizabeths time ; then , the flock recouering that holy liberty for to believe what each one thought was the doctrin of scripture ; the reformation gained ground ; our several congregations lived peaceably ; for tho protestancy was establisht the religion of the land ; others were not oppressed , nor their liberty constrained by compulsions : step down a degree lower to king james his time ; the reformation held its course as prosperoussy as in queen elizabeths time , because mens consciences were not oppressed ; all reformed brethren had full libertie to believe as they pleased ; tho protestancy was the religion of the king : look down a step lower to king charles the first 's reign ; his matie carried with a godly zeale of restraining the diversity of opinions , begot by the liberty enjoyed in his predecessors times , would by new laws and ordinances force the flock to an uniformity of doctrin , but our zealous brethren the presbyterians , impatient of any constraint in affairs of religion , and pleading for the evangelical libetty of our reformation , for to believe nothing , nor vse any rites or ceremonies but as each one judged by scripture to be convenient ; they covenanted against his majestie and bishops ; and the storm grew to that height , that both church and state were drown'd almost in the blood of our reformed brethren : lastly looke vpon our realm as it is at present , the symptom● of disatisfactions which you may read and hear in the coffie houses , in public and privat conversations ; the sparkle● of jealousies , which appear in our land ▪ the cabals against our gouernment ; the animositie of deuided parties ; the murmur and complaints of all ; what 's all this but the smoke of that hidden fire of zeale , wherwith protestants would force presbytherians by penal laws , to profess their tenets , presbyterians exclaim against protestancy as against popery ; quakers judge both to be limbs o● satan ; anabaptists look on all three , as children of perdition ; and no congregation would give libertie for to profess any tenets but its owne ; in so much that if you consider all well , each of our cōgregations , are as severe tyrants ouer our judgments and consciences , as popery was ▪ and our reformation comes to be in effect but an exchange of one italian pope , for many english ones : for as in popery , we must submit our judgments to the pope and church of rome , or be esteemed putrid rotten members ; and be shut out of heauens gates ; and suffer inquisitions , persecutions , excommunications and what not ; so among vs , you must believe scripture as interpreted by the church of england , or you are condemned by them ; you must believe scripture as interpreted by the presbyterians , or you are accursed by them ; you must believe as anabaptists do , or you are damn'd by them ; and not one congregation among vs , but would root all the others out of the world , if it could ; and wee do not feare that danger wherof s. paul gal. 5.15 . warns vs , if wee bite and devour one an other , let 's take heed , wee be not consumed one of an other ; giving vs likewise a holsom advice in the same place , how to prevent this euil ; stand fast in the libertie , wherewith christ has made vs free , and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage : the world did groan vnder this heauy yoke in popery ; wherin our rule of faith , was scripture as interpreted by the pope and church : scripture was kept from the hand of the flock : no man permitted to give or believe any interpretation or sense of it , but what the pope , church and fathers did approve : our reason , our judgments , our consciences were slaves vnder this yoke , vntill that god raised our glorious and blessed reformers luther , calvin , zuinglius , beza and others who tooke a holy libertie , and gave v● all libertie for to reade and interpre● scripture : to believe no doctrin , bu● what wee judged to be true by scripture ▪ to believe any sense of it , which wee judged to be true , tho contrary to all th● world : they tooke for their rule of fait● scripture , and nothing else but scriptur● as each one of them vnderstood it ; thi● same rule of faith they left to vs , and ● holy freedom and libertie of our judgments and consciences , that any man o● sound judgment may hold , and believ● whatever sense of it , he thinks to b● true . this therefore is the scope and end o● my following treatise ; that , wheras ou● rule of faith , as j will prove by th● vnanimous cōsent of our whole reformed church , is scripture or gods wri●ten word , as interpreted by each perso● of sound judgment ; that wheras b● the principles of our reformation , n● man is to be constrained to believe an● doctrin against his judgment and conscience : ( otherwise why were not we left in popery ) it is impious , tyran●cal , and quite against the spirit of the reformation , to force vs by acts of parliaments , decrees of synods , invectives , and persecutions of indiscreet brethren , to embrace this or that religion ; that every one ought to be permitted to believe what he please ; if you think bigamy to be the doctrin of scripture : if you think by scripture there is one nature and four persons in god ; if you think transubstantiation to be true ; if you judge by gods word ther 's neither purgatory nor hell ; finally whatever you think to be the true sense of scripture , you are bound as a true reformed child , to believe it ; that it is quite against the spirit of the reformation to censure , oppose or blame the doctrin or tenets of any congregation , or of any doctor of the reformed church ; because , that any doctrin professed by any christian congregation , whatever ( the popish excepted ) or that ever was delivered by any man of good judgment of the reformation , since the beginning of it , vntill this day , is as truly and really the doctrin of the reformation , as the figurative presence or kings supremacy is . consequently protestants are deservedly to be checkt for persecutin● quakers ; quakers , for murmuring again● presbyterians ; these , for their invectiv● against anabaptists and socinians ; a● are very good ; and you may lawfully according the principles of our reform●tion believe them , or deny them . this evangelical libertie of believin● any thing , which we judge to be the sen● of scripture , tho all the rest of the worl● should judge it to be a blasphemie , the most distinctive sign of the refo●mation from popery ; for papists are th● children of agar the slave ; they liv● in bondage and constraint to believe at doctrin , which the pope and church pr●poses to them ; and if a learned man ● vniversity should judge it to be contra● to scripture ; he must submit his judgment to that of the pope , or be co●demn'd as an heretic : in our reform●tion , wee are the children of sara t● free ; our rule of faith is scripture ● each person of sound judgment in th● church vnderstands it ; if wee do n● like the doctrin of the pope , church ● council , wee may gainsay them all , an● hold our own sense of scripture : ● enjoy the prerogative of rational cre●tures , we are lead by our own reason , which god has given vs for our conduct , and are not like beasts , constrained to follow that of others . wee follow the rule given vs by s. paul rom. 14. he who eates , let him not despise him who does not eate ; and he who does not eate , let him not despise him who does eate , for god hath received him : that 's to say , he who believes let him not check him who does not believe , as he does : and he who does not believe , let him not blame him who does believe : but let each one believe , or not believe as he thinks best in the lord : this holy libertie and freedom is the spirit of god , for , where the spirit of god is , there is libertie , 2. cor. 3. saies the great apostle : the lord inspire to our parliament that now sit● vpon a perfect and new settlement of gouvernment and religion , to follow the footsteps of our first renowned reformers : to enact that there may be no other rule of faith , but that which we received from our reformers , and which is laid down for vs in the 39 articles of the church of england : that is , scripture as each one best vnderstands it , without regarding the judgment , sense , or interpretation of any but the pure word of god , as we vnderstand it : and to enact penal laws against any so bold and vncharitable , as to censure or blame the tenets of any congregation , be it lutheranism , presbyterie , arianism , judaism or paganism : or any doctrin whatever , that any man of sound judgment thinks in his conscience to be the sense and doctrin of scripture . three things make me hope , that this treatise will be wellcom to the well inclined and pious reader of our reformed church : first , that there is not one author quoted in this booke , but our own doctors , learned and godly children of the reformation ; and this j observe , that my reader may know ther 's not a jot of any doctrin heer but what is of the reformation ; and also advertise our writers and schoole men , how much , they discredit our reformed church , by makeing so much vse of popish drs and bookes in their writings ; as if wee had not great and learned men of our own ; if wee looke into our bishops and ministers libraries ; wee shall meet but books either of confessedly papists , or strongly suspected of popery ; and you shall hardly meete in any of them , the works of lurher , calvin , beza , or any of our own authors , if you do not meet som comedies , or romances : if you reade our modern writers , you shall find their bookes to be stuft with arguments stolen from stapleton , peron , bellarmin , and other popish drs. wheras they ought to take their doctrin from luther , calvin and our other first reformers , apostles raised by gods heavenly spirit ; oracles by whose mouths and pens he delivered the pure and orthodox doctrin of the ghospel ; heavenly fontains , from which wee ought to drink the doctrin of the reformation : therefore , j have made a particular study , for the comfort of my reader , not to profane this treatise with any quotation of any popish writer , none but our own drs. secondly my reader will be pleased with this treatise , because j do not oblige him to believe the contents of it : if he mislikes any doctrin couched in this booke , let him not believe it ; if he likes it , let him believe it ; what j pretend is , to maintain his libertie for to believe or not believe what he please and that none can say black in his eye , for believing whatever he judges to be the sense of scripture ; let all others think of it what they will ; for , our rule of faith , as j will prove , being scripture as each person vnderstands it , who can be so bold as to check you for teaching and believing what you vnderstand scripture to say ? som doctrins there are in this booke delivered by luther , calvin , zuinglius , beza , and others ; which our church of england and som others do call blasphemies , and scandalous tenets ; and their irreverence and arrogance is run so farr : as to condemn those blessed men , for teaching such tenets , and say that they swerved from the truth ; and had their fraileties , in so much , that many of vs are ashamed to own those great men to have been our reformers and leaders : this is an impiety altogither insupportable , it cannot be suffered with patience , that such apostolical men , who were vndeniably our first masters of the reformation , should be so vilified and abused : therefore j do prove , that ther 's no doctrin delivered by them , but is to be esteemed and called the doctrin of the reformation : and can be according the principles of the reformed church , believed and taught by any reformed child : for what is our rule of faith in the reformation , but scripture as each person of sound judgment vndestands it ? consequently what is the doctrin of the reformation , but what any person of sound judgment vnderstands to be of scripture : whatever doctrin therefore , luther , calvin , or others judged to be of scripture : how can you deny it to be the doctrin of the reformation : or blame them for teaching and believing it ? if you do not like it : the most , you can in justice do , is not to believe it : but you cannot justly say it s not the doctrin of the reformation , because it 's scripture as vnderstood by persons of good judgment : nor can you in justice blame them , or any other for believing it , if they like it : for , must not wee believe , what wee judge in our conscience to be the doctrin of scripture ? lastly my reader will be pleased with the sincerity and plain dealing of this treatise : as much as wee are all offended by the dissimulation and double dealing of our modern writers , whose aim and scope in the bookes they give out seems to be nothing else , but to say so●what whereby they may be thought t● be no papists , and nothing is less foun● in their writings , than the pure and orthodox doctrin of the reformation● and what is to be bemoan'd , that you● hardly see in the houses or hands of th● flock the works of luther , calvin , o● our other first reformers , they are hi● from vs , to keep vs in ignorance of th● true reformed doctrin , and wee see bu● bramhal , tillinson , taylor , stillingfleet thorndik and such others , whose doctrin is neither popery , nor of the reformation , but a new compound of both they do so mangle the questions controverted with their scholastical subtilities and distinctions , as if they wer● ashamed to own openly our tenets and did endeauor to get the opinion o● moderat sober men with the papists by drawing as neer as their interest ca● permit them , to their doctrin . ask them , if we be obliged to believe the doctrin and sense of scripture delivered by a general council ? our first reformers resolved roundly that we are not : nay luther , saies expresly we are bound to gainsay , and work against the decrees of any council : but our modern doctors answer with a pretty distincction , ther 's a civil obligation , quoth one , but no obligation in conscience : ther 's an obligation in conscience , saies an other , provided you do not believe they are infallible : you may believe they are infallible objectively or terminatively , saies an other : but not subjectively : they are infallible in fundamental points , saies an other , but not in inferior truths . an other will come yet , and say they are absoluty infallible in all articles , and thus by little and little , the papists gain ground against vs , and the lustre of our reformation is clouded by the cowardliness , or insincerity , or hiprocisy of our modern teachers . 1. kings 18. how long halt ye between two opinions ? if the lord be god , follow him : but if baal , then follow him : luther , calvin , beza and our other first reformers were raised by god to teach vs the purity of the ghospel : let vs not be ashamed to follow their doctrin : to speake , preach , and believe as they did : therefore , j do propose their doctrin in this treatise in its native coulours , that if you like it , you may believe it , and if any be so bold as to say you believe fals or sca●dalous doctrin , you must answer : i● the doctrin of the reformation , b●cause its scripture as vnderstood b● persons of judgment , and the greate oracles wee had : and if you do no● like it , you may deny it , but bewa● never to blame or check any other fo● believing it : this is the holy libertie o● the ghospel and of our primitive r●formation . first dialogue . ismael . i have read your preface and principles , & me thinks you drive to establish a new religion ; for that vnlimited libertie , which you assert for to belieue or not belieue whatever we please with a safe conscience , is not allowed by any of our reformed congregatiōs ; and it were to be wisht you should rather stick to som one of the congregations now establisht , than to erect a new one for we have but too many already . isaac . the lord forbid ▪ i should think or speake otherwise then as becometh a true child of the reformation : if you will oblige me to belieue scripture as interpreted by the lutheran church ( the like i say of any other congregation ) and deny the tenets of all others , what difference betwixt me and a papist in the electi● of my religion ? for the papist's r●ligion must be no other , but script● as interpreted by the pope and cōci● my religion must be scripture as int●preted by the lutheran church , a● no other ; my judgment and conscie● therefore is as much constrained as t● of the papist ; and our separation fr● popery will com to be but an exchan● of one slavery for another ; in th● our judgments and consciences w● slaves to the pope and councils ● this , we are slaves to the luthe● church : we became a reformat● by shaking of the yoke of pop● from our judgments , and leaving th● free for to belieue scripture as w● the assistance of gods spirit , each o● best vnderstands it ; and if we ● continue a reformation , we must ● submit again our judgments to a● other , but retain that blessed liber● we recouered for to belieue the te● of any congregation . i confess this ●bertie is not allowed by any one p●ticular congregation , as you obser● but you must also grant me , that ● allowed & taken by the whole bod● of the reformation , for in this who● body , as it comprehends protestants , lutherans , presbyterians , &c. one cōgregation believes what the other denies , and in any of them a man may live with a safe conscience ( which you will not denie ; ) therefore any man has full libertie for to believe or deny with a safe conscience the tenets of any congregation : hence it follows ( and to my grief i speake it ) that no particular congregation , be it of england , france , or germanie , has the true spirit of the reformation , in doting so much vpon their particular tenets , as to thinke they cannot be as well denied , as believed ; and in looking vpon them with so passionat eys , as to censure , check and force others to believe them : you shall see by this discourse , that the true spirit of the reformation is not in any one particular congregation separatly taken from the rest ; for each particular congregation constrains as much as it can , all people to believe its own tenets : protestancy would have vs all to be protestants , and would root lutherans out of the world as well as popery ; lutherans would , if they could , draw all to their own nett ; presbytery esteems itself to be the best of all , & would crush protestancy if it could : this then i● the spirit of each particular congregation , a limiting , confining spirit to som particular tenets with an exclusion of all others ; but looke on the whole body of our reformation , a● it includes all reformed congregations distinct from popery ; there i● a holy extension of spirit and libertie for to be either lutherans , presbyteriants , protestans , and any thing but popery , and whatever any congregation may say of an other , but all vnanimously agree that the spirit of the lord is in the whole body of the reformation , since therefore that in this whole body there is a latitude & libertie for to profess divers and opposit● tenets , and that each tenet is believed by one , and denied by others ▪ we must grant that this holy libertie for to believe or deny any tenets we please , is the true spirit of our holy reformation . it 's not therefore to be wisht , as you do , that i should stick to any one particular congregation or tenets ; for such a restriction is meer popery ; and your bemoaning the multiplicity of our congregations is profane and popish : no , it s a blessing of the lord vpon our reformation , for which we shall never sufficiently thank him , that we see it divided into so many godly branches . in the house of my father , said christ , there are many mansions joan. 14.2 . ismael . by your discourse you seem to allow that we may with a safe conscience change religions as often as we please , and be to day a protestant , to morrow à lutheran , next day a presbyterian , and so run ouer all . isaac . i know you will be startl'd at my answer , for j am not ignorant that all men apprehend it to be absurd to change & run ouer so many religions ; but truth must be declared though it may seem a scandal to the iews , and a folly to the gentils : it s therefore the doctrin of the reformation that we may with a safe conscience be to day protestanrs , to morrow lutherans ▪ in france hugonots , in hungarie antitrinitarians , in poland socinians , ad in london of any religion but popery . ismael . for shame you fouly impos● vpon the reformation ; ther 's not an● congregation that teachs such à scandalous and absurd doctrin . isaac . by your favor , i loue th● reformation as the apple of my eye and will never yield to any in my zeal● for its honor and doctrin ; j am so fa● from imposing upon it , that i will evidence your error in denying this to b● its doctrin , and it will appear tha● whoever will deny it to be very lawful to change religions as time and occasion requires , must renounce the bes● and fundamental principles of our reformation , & must impiously condem● the practise of our first reformers . ismael . how will you make it ou● that this doctrin is grounded vpo● the fundamental principles of our reformation ; wheras there is not on● congregation of ours , but abhorrs it ▪ isaac sr. you may well perceive by the tenor of my discours that j am piously and charitably iealous with each particular congregation , & tha● my drift is to shew that each of them , none excepted ▪ swerves from and transgresses against the true spirit , and solid principles of the reformation , as wi●l further appear in this discours . it s v●contestedly true that the rule of faith of the reformation , is scripture as the humble of heart assisted with the spirit of the lord vnderstands it ; for lutherans will never admit their rule of faith to be scripture as interpreted by the church of england , but as interpreted by themselves ; nor will england admit scripture to be their rule of faith as it is interpreted by the presbyterians ; but as interpreted by the church of england : so that the doctrin of each congregation is but scripture , as interpreted by them , and wheras all these congregations joyntly compose the whole body of the reformation , and each congregation is truly a member of the reformation ; the doctrin of the reformation coms to be scripture , as each congregation , and person of sound judgment in the reformation ( saies the church of england in her 39. artic. ) interprets it . this being an vncōtrouled truth ; what man of euer so sound a judgment , but may read to day scripture , as interpreted by the lutheran church , and judge in his conscience that interpretation and doctrin to be true : consequently he may with a safe conscience profess that religion ; soon after he may meet calvins bookes , & charm'd with the admirable strength of his reasons and glosses vpon scripture , he may judge in his conscience , he is to be preferr'd beforre luther ▪ and so may lawfully forsake lutheranism for calvinism ; then again he hits vpon scripture as interpreted by the church of england , whose doctrin ravish's him with that decencie of ceremonies , that majesty of her lyturgie , that harmonie of her hiera●chie ; he is convinc't its better that calvinism , & embraces it : then again he reads the works of arius , and convinc't by the energie of his argument● and texts of scripture produced by him , may alter his judgment and become an arian . wherin can you say does this man transgress against the doctrin or principles of the reformation ? does he forsake the reformation because he forsakes lutheranism for calvinism ? no sure ; for calvinism is as much of the reformation as the other : is not protestancy as much the doctrin of the reformation as presbyterie ? tho he changes therefore one for the other , he still holds the doctrin of the reformation : is not the doctrin of the reformation scripture , not as protestants onely , or presbyterians onely interpret it , but as any congregation or man of sound judgment holds it ? it is therefore evident that according the doctrin and principles of the reformation , he may with a safe conscience change religions , and be to day of one , to morrow of an other vntill he runs all ouer . point me out any congregation ( the obstinat papists excepted ) who will dare say , i cannot live with a safe conscience in any other congregation but in it self ; all other congregations will laugh at it ; why then may not i lawfully forsake any congregation , and pass to an other ? and be in england a protestant , in germany a lutheran , in hungarie an antitrinitarian or socinian . ismael . it 's against the grain of mans reason to believe that we can with a safe conscience change religions , as you say : if you be a protestant , and you judge it to be the true religion ; you are bound to stick to it , & neve● to change it . isaac . if i did discourse with a papist i would not wonder he should say it against the g●ain of mans reason t● believe it lawfull ; but i admire tha● a child of the reformation , be he o● what congregation he will , should b● so ignorant of his principles , as to sa● a man cannot change religions whe● he please : nor do i vndertake to prov● against the papist , that this is lawfull but i vndertake to prove it lawfull against any reformed child , or for● him to deny the principles of the r●formation . is it against reason th● a man may read to day scripture , ● the lutherans interpretation vpon i● & like it very well ; & that he shoul● in this case embrace that religion is it against the graine of mans reaso● that this same man should next year● afterwards hit vpon calvins work● vpon scripture , and after better consideration , think his doctrin to surpass that of luther , & could not he then ( being obliged to choose the best ) forsake lutheranism and stick to calvinism ? and is it against mans reason that he in following years may meet other bookes of arians , socinians , &c. & do the like ? have not we many examples of his in our best & most renowned reformers ? did not ochinus that great light ( says b. bale ) in whose presence england was happie , reading scripture judge the reformation to be better then popery , & of a capuchin fryar became à reformed ; after som years reading scripture he judged judaism to be better than the reformation & became a jew : did not martin bacer one of our first reformers of england & composers of our lyturgie , reading scripture , judge lutheranism to be better than popery , & of a dominicā fryar became a lutheran ? soon after reading scripture , he judged zuinglianism to be better than lutheranism , & became a zuinglian ; not long after he became a lutheran again as he confesses , a & forsooke lutheranism the second time , and returned again to zuinglianism as sklusser : says . b did not cranmer one of our fir●t reformers also of england , & composers of the 39. articles , a wise and religious man profess popery i● henry the viii . time and compose ● book in defence of real presence ; the● in edward the vi. time vpon bette● consideration be professed zuinglianism and writ a book against real pr●sence ; then again in queen mary'● raign , being sentenc'd to death , he declared for popery ; but seeing his recantation could not preserve his life , he renounced popery and dyed a zuinglian . i would tyre your patience i● reading & myne in relating the number of our prime , and most renowne● as well first reformers , as learne● doctors , who without any scruple chā●ed severall times their religions ; no● in te principles of our reformatio● ought they to be blamed : for when our rule of faith is scripture as wit● the assistance of gods spirit we vnderstand it , who doubts but we may t● day judge sincerely luther's sense of i● to be true , to morrow we may rea● with more attention & judge ari●● his sense to be true ; next day that o● calvin , & so of the rest : and do no● think but that we have in england many abettors of this doctrin : alas how many bishops , deans and rich parsōs do we know & haue we known , who were zealous presbyterians and declared enemies of protestancie in our gratious soueraign's exile , and no sooner was he restored , & had bishopricks and ecclesiastical dignities to be giuen but they became stiff protestants . observe the difference betwixt the papists and vs , if of a papist you becom of any other congregation , the popish church excommunicats you ; thou art lookt vpon as an heretic , & apostat , a strayd sheep ; they will not admit you to their communion or lyturgy ; nay could they well auoid you , they would neuer admit you to their companie ; and why ? because they are fondly perswaded their own is the only true religion , and all others to be synagogues of satan ; and if any of vs will become a papist , he must first abiure his former profession : but if of a protestant you should become a presbyterian , a lutheran , quaker or of any other of our societies , you are neuer looked vpon to be a jot the worse for it ; we are not a whit scandalized at such change● which we daily see ; and it is an ● speakable blessing with what acco● vnity and charitie , you may s● at our lyturgie & communion the pr●testant , presbyterian , anabaptis● socinian and hugonot , all praysi● the lord in one congregation in o● churches , none bid out of the churc● none excommunicated , no previo● abjuration required of their form● tenets , & ther 's nothing more f●quent among vs then to go to t● protestant lyturgy in the mornin● in the euening to the presbyteri● especially if our interest or con●niēcie requires it : can there be a m● convincing proofe that we este● it all alike what religion & ten● we profess ? let a lutheran go ● france ; alas ! hee 'l neuer stick to● to the hugonots meeting and seruice let a protestant go to germany , he● go as cheerfully to the luthera● church , as in england to the pr●testant : let a hugonot or presbyteria● go to hungary or poland he is we●com to the antitrinitarians , & soc●nians ; and when any of them retur● home hee 'l be as before . ismael . but can you prove this doctrin by the testimony of any of our synods ? did any teach that we may with a safe conscience change our religion as you say ? isaac . yes i can : the synod of charenton in france held about the yeare 1634. expresly saies that for your salvation it s all alike whether you be a calvinist , lutheran or of any other congregation of the reformed , because says this venerable synod , they all agree in fundamental points , and the lutherans haue nothing of superstition or idolatrie in their manner of divin worship . change then as often as you list ; be a lutheran , be a presbyterian , be an anabaptist , by the mouth of this synod you are assured you 'l never miss to hit right . and i pray can any synod of our times haue more authoritie in point of doctrin than luther our first reformer , a man extraordinarily raised by god ( says the synod of charenton ) and replenisht with his spirit for to repaire the ruins of his church ? he teachs c the elevation of the sacrament is idolatrie , yet he did practise i● and commanded it should be practised i● the church of wittemberg to sp●te th● deuil carolstadius : giuing you t● vnderstand that for just reasons , yo● may teach now one religion , no● an other . zuinglius also whose virtu● and learning is knowen to the work says d that god inspired him to preac● what doctrin was suitable to the times which as it often changes , you ma● often change your doctrin : and consider you if it be not therefore tha● christ our lord saies his yoke is swe●● & his burden light ( that is religio● because we can withdraw our ne●● from it , as time and just reason requires . ismael . could you giue me any s●nod of the church of england whic● deliuers this doctrin , you would g● neere hand to convince me ; for , th● som particular doctors should hau● taught or practis'd it , does not prov● it to be the doctrin of the reformation . isaac . and what greater authoriti● has a synod of england for to prov● a doctrin to be of the reformation than a synod of france which i have produced ? or than luther and zuinglius our first reformers inspired by god to teach vs the puritie of the ghospel ? was it not from luther and zuinglius that england receiued the doctrin of the reformation ? and if england be so bold as to say they erred in this , what assurance can we haue , but that they erred in the rest ? but since nothing will please you but a synod of england , you shall haue not one , but many . can there be any synod in england of so great authoritie as our wise and prudent parliaments ? read our chronicles and you 'l find , that in few years time , they changed and established different religions by publick acts of parliament : in henry the 8. reigne they voted for popery , and made acts and statuts against the reformation ; in edward the 6. time they banisht popery and voted for zuinglianism ; in queen mary's they pull'd down this , and sett vp popery again ; in queen elizabeths , they decryed this , and set vp not zuinglianism , but protestancy ; in the midst of her reign , they polisht this , and added som new perfections to it ; in king james and succeeding kings times , protestancy is of a different stamp from that of queen elizabeths : heare doue in his exhort : to the english recusants an . 1603. pag. 31. henry the 8 had his lyturgie which was very good : edward the 6. condemned it , and brought in an other composed by peter martir and bucer : in elizabeths time , that was condemned , and an othe● approued , and in the middle of her reign , her lyturgy was also misliked , and ● new one introduced , we are so want●● that nothing will cōtent vs but novelties ▪ ismael . doue does not commen● this doctrin , for he calls that frequent exchange of religion wantonness and loue of noueltie . isaac . it s no great matter what he says of it ; my drift is but to convince you that this is the doctrin ▪ & practise of the best members of our reformation ; euen of england , and if you be convinc't its the doctrin of the reformation ; you cannot deny but that it is good doctrin : if doue calls it wantonness , s. paul ephes . 4.22 . coloss . 3.9 . & rom. 6.6 . commends it , and exhorts vs to put of the old man with its deeds ( that 's popery with its ceremonies ) and put on the new man ( that 's the reformation ) where ther 's neither greek nor iew , circumcision , nor incircumcision , barbarian , or scythian , bound or free , but christ is all and in all : that 's to say ; where ther 's no distinction of protestants or presbyterians , socinians , or arians ; it s all one which religion you profes● . ismael . but is there no tenet of religion which we are all indispensably obliged to hold ? isaac . yes there is , and no more but one : we are bound to have faith in iesus christ , son of god and saviour of the world . this is the substance of christian religion ; be an arian , be a presbyterian , be a socinian or what you please , be also plung'd to your ears in wickedness of life , and manners , so you have faith in jesus christ son of god and redeemer of the world and live in charitie you will be a member of the true church and be saved . do not imagin this is any new doctrin invented by me ; search the vulgar sort of our reformed brethren , you shall get thousands of this opinion in our realm ; search the books of our learned drs , you shall find it in them also . dr morton in his much applauded booke dedicated to queen elizabeth , for which he deserved a bishoprick , e says : the arian curch is to be esteemed a true church , because they hold the true substance of christian religiō , which is faith in iesus christ son of god , and redeemer of the world : and again in the same place sect . 4. whose title , is , heretics are members of the church , he says , whosoeuer believes in iesus christ tho by wickedness of life , or heresy in doctrin they should err in doctrin , they are still true members of the church . therefore our learnd f fox , g doctor field● , and illiricus say the greek church notwithstanding their error in denying the procession of the h. ghost from the son , are holy members of the true church , because they have faith in jesus christ . ismael . sure you will not say this doctrin is of the reformation or can be safely believed . isaac . i do admire how you can doubt of it , and that it may be believed : for what is the doctrin of the reformation but as we have said in our principles , scripture as interpreted by any man of sound judgement in the church ? and were not doctor morton , fox , field and illiricus men of sound judgement , eminent learning , and godlines ? if-therefore this be scripture as interpreted by them how can you deny it to be the doctrin of the reformation ? ismael . and what jesus christ are we obliged to believe in ? for jesus christ as believed by the arians socinians , luther and , calvin , is far different from jesus christ , as commonly believed by the protestans and popish church , we believe in jesus christ the son of god , of one and the same substance and nature with the father ; they believe in a jesus christ , son of god but of a distinct and different nature and substance from the father . isaac . pish ! that 's but a nicetie ; believe what you please , and what you vndestand by scripture to be true and have charitie . ismael . i confess you have puzzled , but yet not wholy convinced me ; were i but perswaded that what you have discoursed is truly the doctrin of the reformation , j would cheerfully embrace it , and j will be better informed by your self , but not tyre your patience : we will meet again and pursue our discours vpon this subject . ii. dialogue . ismael . reflecting in my solitude vpon your last discours , j find it bottom'd vpon a fals principle ; for you suppose that what euer doctrin is of luther calvin , or any of our learned , drs , synods , parliaments , or congregations , is the doctrin of the reformation and may without any more proof or scruple be believed by any reformed child ; who but sees this is ridiculous , to fasten the doctrin and absurd opinions of each particular dr , or congregation vpon the whole body : this is the vncharitable and vnreasonable art of the papists , who keep a great coyl with som exorbitāt opinions of luther and calvin , and would perswade their proselyts , they are the tenets of the reformation ; wheras the reformation disclaims those opinions as much as the pope does : and they do not , poore people , observe how many absurd and scandalous doctrins we meet in their casuists and divins , which when we reproach them with , they answer it s not the doctrin of their church , but of som particular drs ; as if we might not with as much justice as they , answer the same . isaac . your reflection is good , and my discours will fall to ground if i do not prove that principle , which will be no hard task : let vs imagin we are heere a full synod of protestants , presbyterians , hugonots , lutherans , antitrinitarians , anabaptists , quakers , and of all and each of our congregations ; our reformation is not any of these congregations with an exclusion of the rest ; but all of them ioyntly ; for whatsoeuer congregation would say it self alone is the reformation , and no other , would be hiss'd at by the rest ; and iustly ; because that our reformation imports two points essential●y : first a profession of christianitie according the rule of the word of god , and a detestation or abjuration of popish errors ; and none of these congregations but does both . ismael . i know som of these , pharisee like . despise others , and looke upon them , not as ref●rmed , but as putrid members ; but the lord forbid i should be so deuoid of charitie ; i see no just challenge any can have to the title of reformation , which all haue not . isaac . let vs ask this synod by what rule of faith does the reformation walk ? what must a man believe for to be a true reformed ? protestants will say , that scripture and apostolical tradition ; but protestants say of papists ; and presbyterians and anabaptists say of protestants ; that many human inventions are obtruded upon vs as apostolical traditions ; that we have no way to discern the one from the other , and con●●quently tradition , as being an vnknown thing vnto vs , cannot be our rule : others will say that scripture and the indubitable consequences out of it , is our rule , all will grant this : but then enters the controversie , if the consequences of lutherans be such , and if the consequences of presbyterians be indubitable out of scripture , and each congregation will say that their peculiar tenets are indubitable consequences out of scripture , and the rest must allow it to be true , or deny such a congregation to be of the reformation : others will say that scripture and the four first general councils , with the apostles and athanasius's creeds are our rule of faith ; but most of the assembly will no more admit the four first , than the subsequent councils , nor athanasius his creed more than that of trent ; nor will the quakers , socinians and others value the apostles creed . but there is none of all the assembly , who will not admit scripture that 's the pure written word of god , to be a sacred and full rule of faith , because it s replenisht with divin light and all heavenly instruction necessarie for our saluation : and such as ad , as a part of our rule of faith , the apostles or athanasius his creeds , or the four first general councils , they will confess that all they containe is expressed in gods written word , and are but a plainer , or more distinct expression or declaration of the contents of scripture . ismael . truly i must grant you this , that i have been often present at severall discourses of protestants with papists , and never yet could i heare a protestant make councils , tradition , or any thing els the test of their discours but onely scripture ; not but that i could heare them say and pretend in their discourses that apostolical tradition , and the four first councils were for them against popery ; but still their main strength and vltimat refuge was scripture ; for when ever they harp vpon that string of tradition and councils , the papists are visibly too hard for them , and then they run to scripture , than which there is no plus vltra . i have been also often at severall discourses betwixt protestans , presbyterians and our brethren of other congregations , and have observed that the protestant , for to defend his lyturgie , rites and ceremonies of the church of england , and her episcopacy against the others , could never defend himself by scripture alone , and placed his main strength against them in tradition , primitive councils , and ancient fathers , all which the others rejected and reproached the protestant with popery , for making vse of that weapon ; that if thy would stick to those principles as their rule of faith , they must admit many tenets of popery , which they disavow ; that nothing but scripture is a sufficient warrant and rule of faith : and i find by all i could ever well vnderstand , that its the general apprehension and belief of all the reformation , that scripture abundantly contains all we are obliged to believe , and is our sole and adequat rule of faith , and that our recours to tradition , councils , fathers &c. are but shifts of some of our drs. who being non plust in their particular engagements , and sophistries , patch the incoherencie of their discours with these raggs of popery . isaac : i commend your ingenuity , but not that heate which transports you to check our drs for their glosses and particular doctrins vpon scripture , which , as the manna relisht of all sorts of victuals which the eater● fancied , admits several senses according the different spirits and measure of light that god gives to the reader , and it is vndoubtedly the the spirit of the reformation to follow what sense of it he likes best , and not to check others for following this or that as they please : lutherans , protestants , presbyterians , &c. have all for their rule of faith scripture , which each of them interprets in a different sense ; luther for the real , protestants for the figurative presence ; protestants for episcopacy ; presbyterians against it ; and so of others : and tho each esteems his own sense to be the best , yet none , is so bold as to say the others may not be saved in their own sense of it , or deny them to be true children of the reformation ; nay that venerable synod of charenton , as i quoted aboue , has declared that the lutherans , tho opposit to them in their chief tenets , are their beloved brethren and have nothing idolatrous or superstitious in their manner of divin worship : the fundamental reason of all this is , that our rule of faith , is but scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it . ismael . i grant all your discourse as to this particular ; for its certain lutherans will not admit scripture as interpreted by protestants , but as interpreted by themselves ; and so of each other congregation . isaac . if you admit our rule is scripture as each vnderstands it ; then you must grant that our doctrin of the reformation is whateuer doctrin each person of sound judgment vnderstands to be of scripture ; and from this , it appears plainly that my principle wherat you bogl'd is true ; that , whateuer doctrin is professed by any of our congregations , synods ▪ parliaments , drs. or particular dr. of our reformation , is to be truly reputed and esteemed the doctrin of the reformation ; which principle being true ; my discourse of yesterday is vndeniable , that you may change religions , as often as you please , and remain still a true reformed child . ismael . but you haue said that not only the doctrin of each congregation and synod , is the doctrin of the reformation ; but also whateuer any one particular doctor teachs ; and this seems to be very absurd . isaac . it 's not so absurd , as it is true ; i 'l prove by the principles of our reformed church , by the testimonies of our most learned and best drs. and reformers , and by reason and experience that the doctrin of any particular doctor among vs , has as much right to be called and esteemed the doctrin of the reformation , as protestancy , presbytery or lutheranism ; for , what is lutheranism , but the judgment of luther a particular dr , against the whole church of rome ? what is calvinism , but what calvin a particular dr , judged to be the sense of scripture against that same church ? what is quakery , but honest naylor's godly and pious sentiments vpon scripture . it s vndeniably the principle of our reformed church , that our rule of faith is scripture as interpreted , not only by synods or congregations , but by any person of sound judgment in the church . no congregation or synod is to vs a rule of faith : because all are fallible ; but gods written word , as each one vnderstands it ; and if wee do not like the sense of it delivered by any council synod or congregation , wee may safely deny it : therefore our great calvin a saies and proues with great energy of scripture and reason , that we are not obliged to the decisions and doctrin of any council synod or congregation , if after hauing examined scripture , we do not find their interpretation and sense of it , is conformable to the word of god. let synods and congregations say what they will , if any particular doctor thinks his own privat sense of it to be better , he may stick to it against them all , and be a good true child of the reformation ; as arminius in holland did withstand the synods of dordreet and delpht ; as luther and calvin did against rome . i will be free , saies our vnparalleld proto-apostle luther , b i wil● not submit my self to the authority of councils , church , drs vniuersities or fathers , but will teach and preach whateuer i think to be true . did ever any apostle speake with more courage ? and the blessed man acted with no less ; he knew full well the whole stream of antiquity , drs , fathers and councils were against him , as he confesses himself , and dit not care a rus● for them all : lay aside , saies he , c ● arms of orthodox antiquity , of school● of diuinity , authority of fathers , councils , popes , and consent of ages we receiue nothing but scripture ; but s● that we must haue the authority of interpreting it . nor was it only luther and calvin spoke thus , but all our first blessed reformers ; and why ? because our rule of faith is scripture , not a interpreted by the church of england , ( france will not admit it ) nor as interpreted by the quakers , ( the anabaptists and independents will not heare it ) nor as interpreted by luther ▪ ( calvin rejects it ) nor as interpreted by calvin ( thorndic and bramhal will not yield to it , ) nor will stillingfleet stand to their interpretation ; nor others to that of stillingfleet . finally our rule of faith is scripture , not as interpreted by any , but as each congregation synod , particular dr , or man of sound judgment interprets it ; and consequently what ever doctrin any man of sound judgment judges to be of scripture , is to be esteemed the doctrin of the reformation ; and you may safely believe it , if you like it , and remain still as truely a reformed child , as the proudest protestant of england . ismael . can you prove that our rule of faith is scripture as any particular dr or person of sound judgment vnderstands it ? isaac . behold how convincingly ; first wee have heard luther , quoted but now , say , we receive nothing but scripture , but so as that we must have the authority for t● interpret it : hear him again ; d th● governors and pastors haver powe t● teach ; but the sheep must give thei● judgment whether they propose the voy● of christ , e or of strangers . and again : christ has taken from the bishops councils and pastors the right of judging of doctrin ; and given it to all christians i● general ; and the rule is scripture ● each one will think fit to interpret i● and consequently to this , wee hav● heard him say aboue , i will be fi● and will not submit to drs councils , ● pastors , but will teach whatever think to be true . barlow ; f the apostles have given to each particular t● right and power of interpreting a● judging by his inward spirit , what i● true ; its needless that either man ● angel , pope or council should instru● you ; the spirit working in the heart , an● scripture are to each particular person mo● assured interpreters . bilson bishop o● wincester saies the same , g the peopl● must be discerners and judges of wha● is taught . our religion has no othe● rule of faith ( saies our french reformation by the mouth of dumoulin , h drelincourt , and the holy synod of charenton ) but the written word of god , as interpreted by vs. lastly saies the church of england in the 6th . art. of their 39. we have no other rule of faith but scripture as each person of sound judgment in the church vnderstāds it , and what is proved by it : and again in the catholic doctrin of the church of england pag. 103. which is but an exposition of the 39. articles . our rule of faith is but scripture as each person of sound judgment in the church vnderstands it : authority is given to the church and to each person of sound judgment in it , to judge in controversies of faith ; and this is not the privat judgment of our church , but also of our brethren of forreign countries ismael . j confess , not only these , but many other drs abet your discourse , and the general vogue of our reformation , is for scripture as each one vnderstands it ; but alas ! you see well , that wee can never settle any religion or church by such a rule of faith . isaac . you can never settle any but rhis , that every man may without le● or hinderance believe what he please : and why should not this be a good religion ? if scripture as each one vnderstands it be not our rule of faith ; if we must be constrained to believe scripture not as wee vnderstand it ; but as it is vnderstood by this or that congregation ; wh● difference betwixt vs and papists ▪ they must believe scripture as interpreted by the pope , and council● have ever so much light from god be ever so wise and witty , you mu● depose your own judgment , a● submit to that of the pope , counci● and popish church : to this pass ● are come also ; wee must believe t● kings supremacie , episcopacy , f●gurative presence tho perhaps we d● not judge by scripture it be tr● doctrin ; wee are constrained by penal laws , and acts of parliament t● believe them , as papists by the inquisition ; and why ? because th● church of england vnderstands b● scripture , its true ; and if you , repl● you do not interpret scripture s● you 'l not be heard ; you must submi● and believe against your judgment : and what 's this but plain popish tyrany ouer mens consciences ? did luther and calvin forsake the pope and councils , for to submit their judgments to any other ? no , but to follow scripture as each one of them vnderstood it : and tho luther was a man raysed by god and replenisht with his spirit to repair the ruins of the church ; yet calvin did no more submit to him , than luther did to the pope ; nor did zuinglius submit to calvin , but followed his own sense of scripture ; nor did oecolampadius submit to zuinglius ; but every one searched the scripture , believed and taught what they thought to be true ; and thus we became a reformation of popery : if therefore we will continue a reformation , and walk by the spirit of our first blessed reformers ; wee must not be constrained to believe any mans sense of scripture : we must believe whateuer we think to be true , and have no other rule of faith but scripture as each one vnderstands it . ismael . and what then ? what do you inferr from this discourse ? isaac . this consequence , that wheras no true child of the reformation , be he of what congregation you will , can justly deny our rule of faith to be scripture as any person of sound judgment interprets it ; it follows vnauoidably that the doctrin of the reformation is , whatever any person of sound judgment interprets to be the true sense of scripture , and whatever luther , calvin , beza , or any other of sound judgment in the reformation , since its first ryse vntill this day , taught to be the true sense of scripture , is to be called and esteemed the doctrin of the reformation , tho to others of this or that congregation it may seem to be wicked and scandalous doctrin ▪ and now let me answer to an objection you made against this principle in our entrance to this discourse : you objected that many papish drs and casuists delivered scandalous and base doctrins , which the papists will not admit to be the doctrin of their church , tho deliverd by papish drs ; and thence you pretended , that the particular sentiments of privat drs of the reformation are not to be called the doctrin of our church . but be pleased to observe the difference betwixt popery and our reformation ; the rule of faith in popery is , scripture as interpreted by the pope and council , or their church ; they will admit no other ; consequently no doctrin is to be called popery but what is judged by the pope and his church or council to be the sense of scripture ; and if any dr or universitie holds any sense contrary to theirs ; it is to be called the doctrin of that particular person , and not the doctrin of the popish church ; because their rule of faith is not scripture as interpreted by any person of sound judgment ; but as interpreted by their pope and council . but wheras our rule of faith in the reformation , is scripture as each person of sound judgment interprets it ; whatever doctrin or sense is said by any man to be of scripture , is justly to be called the doctrin of the reformation : for example , melancton , a man of sound judgment , great learning , and of an vpright conscience , taught bigamy to be the doctrin of scripture ; beza taught , the lords supper might be administer'd in any kind of victuals , as well as in bread and wine : calvin taught , that christ despaired on the cross , and suffered the pains of hell after his death : why then , let all the bishops and universities of england condemn this doctrin ; let all the synods of france and germany decry it ; the doctrin will be still of the reformation ; because its scripture as interpreted by men of sound judgment . ismael . the heate of your discourse has tyred you ; and my memorie i● sufficiently loaden with what yo● have said ; let me digest it in my privat retirement , and wee will mee● again . isaac . content ; carrie with yo● these three points , which i have proved convincingly : first our rule of faith is scripture , not as interpreted by this or that , but by an● man of sound judgment ; secondly i● follows hence that the doctrin of th● reformation , must be and ought to be called whatever any man of sound judgment saies is the sense of scripture : thirdly it follows , wee may change religions as often as wee please . iii. dialogue . ismael . i remember well the summary of your last discourse , given me in three points ; and i find the second to be absurd , and repugnant to reason : you 'l neuer perswade it , tho you have pleaded for it with great energy ; what ? if a silly woman , cobler , or other tradesman reade scripture and giue their sense of it , that , forsooth , must be called the doctrin of the reformation ? and it shall be lawfull for them to believe it against the doctrin of the whole church ? isaac . do not limit gods infinit goodness , by measuring his mercies towards his creatures with your narrow apprehensions : take notice he saies , he has chosen the weake and contemptible of the world for to confound the strong ones : i confess vnto you father , that you have hid thes● things from the wise and prudent , and hast revealed them to the little ones . and therefore he choosed poore simple fishermen to be his apostles : ● know it 's the practise of papists , and from them your church of england borrows it , to despise the ministeri● of women , tradesmen , and illitera● people in preaching teaching and interpreting scripture ; but s. paul tell vs the word of god is not bound that's to say , is not entayl'd on th● learned , rich , or great ones , the wind bloweth where it listeth : o● bishops and ministers would make ● monopoly of the word of god , and have themselves to be the only retailers of it ; for to have som plausible title for to enjoy great rents and sheare the flock : but wee have seen , as well among the quakers , a● in other congregations , filly women and tradesmen replenisht with gods spirit , preach and expound the great misteries of our religion with as much of good success and edification of the auditory , as any penny-booke man in england . ismael . it seems you approue the ministerie of women and silly tradesmen for preaching and teaching the flock ; and if so , you 'l ouerthrow our hierarchy of bishops and ministers . isaac . it matters not much for you to know , what i approve or condemn ; but to know what the doctrin of the reformation is ; it 's this ; that none can teach , preach , administer sacraments , or exercise ecclesiastical functions if he be not in holy orders , bishop , minister or deacon ; for the church of england teachs it , and you may believe it if you please . you may also deny it ; and say , any woman or tradesman has as much power for to preach and administer the sacraments as the richest bishop in england : this also is the doctrin of the reformation as well as the former , because quakers ▪ presbyterians , brownists ; anabaptists , &c. believe and teach it , and they are men of as sound judgments , and as good reformeds as protestants ; nay the most learned of our reformers teach and commend the power of women for to exercise spiritual functions , and administer the sacraments : a saumaise , peter martyr , and b zuinglius expresly defend the priesthood as well of women as of men : and luther proves it efficaciously ; the first office of a priest saies he , is to preach , c this is common to all , euen women ; the second is to baptize ; which is also common to women ; the third is to consecrat the bread and wine , and this also is common to all as well as to men and in the absence of a priest , a woma● may absolve from sins as well as the pope , because the words of christ , whateu●● yee shall vntye on earth , shall be vntyed in heauen , were said to all christians . and when so eminent men ha● not said it , reason and scripture convinces it ; reason , because that our rule of faith being scripture a● each person of sound judgment vnderstands it , many women vndoubtedly are of sound judgment , and why should not their interpretation of scripture pass for the doctrin of the reformation , as well as that of our bishops and ministers : scripture , because wee reade the samaritan woman was the first who preached the messias to the cittie of sama●ia , and christ commanded mary magdalen to go to preach his resurrection to his disciples , and wee know by our cronicles that our glorious queen elizabeth of blessed memory , did not only gouern the state , but was a great apostoless in church affaires . ismael . to what purpose then , have wee bishops and ministers , who enjoy so vast reuenews , if any man or woman can preach and administer the sacraments as well as they . isaac . you may believe , bishops and ministers are very needfull for the service of the church ; for they being commonly learned witty men , and having wyves , they come to instruct their wyves so well , that the good women com in a short time to be as learned as their husbands , and as nimble and quick in the ecclesiastical ministeries as they , if they were permitted to exercise them ; as som authors of credit relate vnto vs , that a gentleman of constance , writ to his friend in a village ( about thre● leagues distant from that cittie , whose inhabitants were for the mos● part of our lutheran reformation the good pastor exhorted his floc● to prepare for easter communion and that none should presume t● come to the holy table , but shoul● first confess and receive absolutio● of his sins : easter holy dayes bein● come , such a multitude flockt to confession , that the pastor could not satisfie the devotion of so great a cro● he called his wife to help him , f● to hear confessions , and give absolutions , in wich ministerie the goo● lady did labour with great satisfaction of the penitents ; but neith● the pastor nor his virtuous conso● being able to dispatch so great a multitude , he called his maide servant who did work in the holy minister with as much expedition as her master . but for all this , the church o● scotland , france and all england ( protestants excepted ) will tell yo● that bishops and ministers are no● needfull ; nay that they are very prejudicious to the reformation and state ; to the reformation , because this hierarchy with the bishops court , surplices corner caps , and other trumperies , puts the flock in mind of popery , wherof its a perfect resemblance ; and whylst the papists see our change from them , comes to be almost no more but to substitute new priests and bishops in their own place , for to manage more conscienciously the rents and reuenews which they profanely abused ; and that those rents and revenews are still in the hands of an ecclesiastical hierarchie ; they live in hopes of recovering them som day , when our bishops and ministers will come to be as bad ●tewards of them as they were ; and ●hat the flock will be weary of them , ●nd call back the ancient possessors : ●ts therefore perhaps the emissaries ●f the pope do incessantly blow in ●ur eares ; how ill our ecclesiastical ●evenews are bestowed , for to main●ain wyves and children , pomp and ●anitie of bishops and ministers ; no ●ess than in popery . to the state , they seem to be prejudicious , whera● any but a bishop or minister , would think , it would be more advantagiou● to the common-wealth , that the king should have those revenews for to maintain his fleet and armie , and eas● thereby the subjects of subsidies an● taxes , than that a handfull of bishop and ministers should have them specially when others can preach an● teach as well as they , for nothing , b● the pleasure of being hea●d . ismael . but do not you see it woul● be a sacriledge that the king shoul● deprive the clergy of their churc● revenews . isaac . and do not you know , th● almost all our congregations do hol● our clergy to be no true clergy , b● as meer laymen as you or i ; the admit no clergy or episcopal car●cter ; but elders chosen by the co●gregation : and if they be no tr● clergy , they have no right to th● church revenews , and it s no sacr●ledge to deprive them of them . th● popish clergy in henry the vii time , had visibly a greater right ● them , than ours now have : s● neither the king himself nor any other did doubt of their right , and now most of our congregations , do absolutly deny any right in our clergy to those rents ; because they are no clergy : yet none will be so bold , as to accuse henry the viii . of sacriledge , for hauing taken the church liuings from them , for to put them to better vse . and why should wee dare say , our king would commit any , for depriving our clergy of those rents : believe he can lawfully do it ; or believe he can not , you 'l be still a good child of the reformation . believe what you please . ismael . this is a ticklish point ; let 's leaue it to the consideration of our wise and prudent parliament ; and be pleased to answer to my doubt ; how can wee live in peace and tranquillitie in religion , if our rule of faith be scripture as each one vnderstands it : i remember a discourse started in the house of lords , not many yeares agon , by his grace the duke of buckingam ; he desired to know , what was it to be a protestant ; wherin did protestancy properly consist ? the bishops , who were present looked one vpon an other , and whether , they feared the difficultie of the question , or that for modesty's sake , each expected to hear an other speake first● they stood sylent for a whyle ; at last the yce was broken by one ; others followed ; but hardly any two agreed ; and all that the duke could gather out of their several answers , was that our rule of faith , was scripture as each one vndestood it ; and protestancy nothing but scripture as interpreted by the parliament and church of england : whervpon he concluded , wee are these hundred yeares very busy for to settle religion , and for ought i perceive , wee are as vnsettled now as at the beginning : and truly he had great reason ; for , religion and faith is nothing else , but that sense of scripture , which each person of sound judgment vnderstands ; and as it 's impossible wee should all jump and agree in one sense and meaning of the text , so its impossible wee shall euer be settled and agree in religion . isaac . the reason of our vnsettlement hitherto and at present , is the violent efforts , what by persecutions , acts of parliaments , and other oppressions ; what by invectives , intrigues , and cabals of the church of england , to draw all to be protestants ; of the presbyterians , to make vs deny episcopacy ; and of each other congregation , to force vs to their respective tenets : and whylst this constraint and severity is vsed against mens consciences , it s in vain to expect peace or settlement in our reformed church : but let vs follow our rule of faith ; let cach one believe as in his conscience he best vnderstands scripture ; let vs all believe what wee please , and be permitted so to do ; and wee shall without doubt enjoy perfect peace and tranquillity : believe you figurative presence , if you will ; let the lutheran believe his real presence , if he likes it ; and let me believe no presence at all , if i judge ther 's none ; why will not you permit me to follow that rule of faith which the whole reformation , euen the church of england gives me in her 39. articles , scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it . to say , wee can neuer have settlement in religion , whylst this arbitrary interpretation of scripture is permitted , is to speake like a papist : this the pope and papists said to our first blessed reformers ; and the popish church saies this day to vs ; that wee ought to submit our judgments to the church and councils ; that wee ought not to believe what sense wee think to be true , but what the pope and councils propose vnto vs ; and if luther and our other reformers did not do ill , in follwing their own sense and interpretation of scripture against all the world , why do you blame me or any other for following their example ? ismael . when you speake of our reformation and congregations , i heare you reckon the arians , socinians , and antitrinitarians among them ; sure you do not belieue they , or such like ancient condemned hereticks , were of the reformation ; for wee protestants do believe the mystery of the trinity against them , and will never own them to be our brethren . isaac . and , do not you believe episcopacy against the presbyterians ; som canonical books against the lutherans ; supremacy against the quakers , and infants baptism against the anabaptists ; and yet you own them as your brethren and godly congregations of the reformation ; or if you will deny them , they will also scorn you , and say they are more of the reformation than you are ; and why will not you own the arians , &c. as your brethren tho you believe the trinitie against them ? you say they are old condemn'd heretiks : and does this language becom a child of the reformed church ? by whom were they condemn'd ? was it not by the popish church , which also condemns vs , and saies wee are as much hereticks as they ; and as wee ought not to be so called , and judge the pope and councils sentence against vs to be bold , vncharitable , and injust ; so wee must say of the arians , pelagians and others condemn'd by them . you saie protestants will never own them to be their brethren ; god forbid the protestant church should be so vncharitable to their fellow christians , and so injust to themselves . b. morton , ) as i cited in my first dialogue ) as learned a man a● the church of england bred , saies the arian church is a true church , and will say no less of the others : but what need wee the testimonie of any , for what reason so convincingly proves ; they who walk by one and the same rule of faith , are of one and the same religion , therefore lutherans , protestants , presbyterians and independents do esteem themselves to be of the same faith and religion , because they all have the same rule , which is scripture ● each congregation vnderstands it also notwithstanding the difference and varietie of congregations in popery ; they hold all but one faith as they say ; because they have al● but one rule of their beliefe , whic● is their infallible pope and church but it 's evident that those which yo● call , ancient condemned hereticks , have one and the same rule of faith with our reformation ; for ours is scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it ; without any obligation of holding the sense of it delivered by pope , church , councils or any other ; therefore our first blessed reformers did not care what sense of it , the church or pope did hold when they began to preach the purity of the ghospel ; but each of them interpreted it as he thought fit in the lord , and so purged the church of many errors : this is the very self same rule of faith , which arians , pelagians , nestorians , and others , peremptorily condemned by rome as hereticks , did follow and walk by : each of them read and interpreted scripture , preached and believed what sense of it they tought to be true , tho they knew it was against the doctrin of the church , looking on scripture alone as their rule of faith , without any regard of the pope , church , councils , or fathers : the church of rome proud and impatient of any opposition , condemned them as hereticks for not submitting their judgments to her ; for takeing scripture as they vnderstood it , and not as the church and councils vnderstood it , for their rule of faith ; and if this be a crime , wee are as guiltie as they ; wee are equally nocent or innocent ; wee are both hereticks , or none is ; wee are therefore concern'd in their honor and ought to defend the integrity of their procedure against the common enemy which is the pope● they were reformers of the church in their times , as wee are in ours and wheras thy have the same rul● of faith ; so they have the same religion with the reformation . ismael . then , you will say ari●nism is the doctrin of the reform●tion , and wee may lawfully believe i● isaac . i say god's unitie in nature and trinity in persons is th● doctrin of the reformation , becaus● the protestant , lutheran , and h●gonot church , judge by scripture i● is true ; and if you judge also b● scripture it s the true doctrin , yo● may believe it : i say also if yo● judge by scripture this mystery is not true , you may safely deny it according the principles of the reformation , and be still as good a member of the reformed church , as they who believe it ; for whoeuer believes what he judges by scripture to be true , is a true reformed : and , that the denyal of the trinitie is as much the doctrin of the reformation as the belief of it ; it appears not only because it was the doctrin of the arians , who as i proved are truly of the reformed church ; but because it was taught by the greatest ligths of our church : d calvin saies the text , my father is greater than i , must be vnderstood of christ , not only as he is man , but also as he is god. and that the council of nice did abuse the text : e my father and i are one , for to prove the vnity of both in nature ; wheras it only signifies their vnity by conformity of will. again he saies epist . 2. ad polon . in tract . theol. pag. 796. that prayer , holy trinity one god have mercy of vs , is barbarous , and does not please me . and ads f the son has his own substance distinct from the father . his disciple danaeus g saies , it s a foolish insipid prayer : and our great apostle luther ( who as fox witnesseth , was the chariot and conductor of israel , and a man extraordinarily raised and replenisht with gods spirit , to teach the purity of the ghospel ) caused that prayer to be blotted out of the litanies . h that word trinity , saies he , sounds coldly ; my soule hates that word homousion , and the arian did well in not admitting it . lastly ochinus that great oracle of england impugns this mysterie with a strong discourse : i wee are not obliged to believe , saies he , more than the saints of the ancient testament , otherwise our condition would be worse than theirs ; but they were not obliged to believe this mystery ; therefore we are not obliged . examin i pray the works of these eminent drs. where i quote them ; consider if they be not , not only men of sound judgment , but men extraordinarily raised by god , ( saies the synod of charenton ; the chariots and conductors of israel , saies fox : men to be reverenc'd after christ , saies our dr powel , and apostolical oracles sent to teach vs the purity of the ghospell ; and conclude , it s an vndeniable veritie that this is the doctrin of the reformation , wheras it's scripture as interpreted by such men : o! but england france and scotland believes this mysterie ; well ? and what then ? that proves that the mysterie is also the doctrin of the reformation , because whateuer any man of sound judgment thinks to be scripture , is its doctrin ; but is england or france alone the whole reformation ? are not luther , caluin , danaeus , ochinus as well of the reformation ; and men of as sound judgment as they ? since therefore they vnderstand by scripture ther 's no trinitie , it s the doctrin of the reformation also that ther 's none : believe it or deny it , which you like best , and you 'l be still of the reformed church . ismael . by the principle you run vpon , you may say any blasphemy is the doctrin of the reformation ; for ther 's hardly any so execrable , but som dr of ours has delivered and taught it . isaac . the principle i run vpon is this , scripture as each person of sound judgment interprets it , is our rule of faith : judge you , if that be not a good principle in our reformed church ; wheras this is the rule of faith given vs by the 39. articles and generally by all our drs as i proved in my first dialogue : this being our rule of faith and reformed doctrin , its evident , that whatever doctrin is judged by any person of sound judgment to be contained in scripture , is the doctrin of our reformation : som persons of sound judgement say the real presence is expressed by scripture ; this therefore is the doctrin of the reformation ; others say , only figurative presence is taught in scripture ; this also is the doctrin of the reformation ; som vnderstand by scripture , there is a mysterie of the blessed trinitie ; this therefore is the doctrin of the reformation ; others vnderstand ther 's no such mysterie ; this also is the doctrin of the reformation : so that whether you believe or deny this or any other tenet controverted , you 'l still hold the doctrin of the reformation . ismael . calvin k saies christ prai'd vnaduisedly , the eve of his passion ; that he vttered words wherof he was afterward sorry , that in his passion he was so troubled of all sides , that ouerwhelm'd with desperation , he desisted from invoking god , which was to renunce all hopes of salvation : and saies he , l if you object us absurd and scandalous to affirm christ despaired , i answer , this desperation proceeded from him as he was man , not as he was god. and this is not only the doctrin of calvin , but of brentius , m marlotus , n jacobus minister ( quoted by bilson ) and of beza ▪ will you say this is the doctrin of the reformation , or that wee can without scruple believe it ? also calvin saies , o that ch●ist's corporal death was not sufficient for to redeem vs , but that after hauing despaired on the cross , he suffered the death of his soule ; that 's to say , that his soule after his corporal death , suffered the pains of the damn'd in hell . and saies he in the same place , they are but ignorant doltish brutish men , who will deny it . luther also teachs the same doctrin : p as he suffered with exceeding pains the death of the body , so it seems he suffered afterward the death of his soule in hell : epinus q a learned lutheran saies , christ descended into hell for thee , and suffered not only corporal death , but the death and fire of hell . mr. fulk and parkins avow this is also the express doctrin of illiricus , latimer and lossius . also lurher r most impiously affirms , that not only the human nature of christ dyed for vs , but also his divin nature : see luther's words quoted at large by zuinglius , ſ and hospinian : t if you say such scandalous blasphemies may be safely believed , you will render you● christianitie suspected ; and if yo● say , that they are the doctrin of th● reformation , or that they may be believed according the principles ● the reformation ; you will make th● reformation and its principles t● be hated by any good christian . isaac . if i walk by the rule o● faith of the reformation , i 'l prove my self a true reformed child ; and if i prove my self to be a reformed child , my christianity cannot be justly suspected . what tenet have you related of all those which you call blasphemies and scandals ▪ but has been judged by those eminent drs. of our reformation to be express scripture , or conformable to scripture ; and since our rule of faith is scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it , and since the doctrin of our reformation is but whatever any such person of sound judgment , judges to be expressed in , or proved by scripture ; its evident that all those tenets are vndeniably the doctrin of the reformation : i say then , and will say without any offence to my christianity , or blemish to our reformed church ; that those tenets are the doctrin of the reformation and may be as safely believed by any child of it , as figurative presence , supremacy , or two sacraments : and let not any bigot pretend to freghten me from this doctrin by calling it blasphemy and impiety ; no , its scripture as interpreted by our renowned reformed doctors ; therefore it s no blasphemy : let any man convince me , that our rule of faith must not be scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it ; and he will convince that this cannot be justly called the doctrin of the reformation ; but whylst that principle and rule of faith stands vnshaken , nothing that is taught by any person of sound judgment to be the doctrin of scripture , but is to be called our doctrin , and may be safely believed . you say that whoeuer has any loue for christianity , will hate the reformation and its principles , if they give libertie for to believe such blasphemies : but , can any mother be more indulgent to her child than the reformation is to vs ? such as think those tenets to be blasphemies , the reformation gives them leave not to believe them ; and if any judges by scripture , that they are not blasphemies but pure doctrin ; as luther , calvin and others did , they have liberty for to believe them . he who denyes them , cannot in charity check them who believe them ; nor can they who believe them , check those who deny them , wheras each follow our rule of faith , and believe what they judge by scripture to be true . and if you or your church of england cry out blasphemy , blasphemy , against all that you judge to be fals ; why do not you cry blasphemie against presbyterians , lutherans and other congregations from whom you dissent ? and what difference betwixt you and the church of rome ? the folly of this is to call heresy and blasphemy all that is not her own doctrin : and all that your church of england mystikes , must be fanaticism , blasphemy , and impiety ? must our rule of faith be scripture as the church of england vnderstands it , and not otherwise ? presbyterians and lutherans will neuer allow it : if therefore our rule of faith be scripture as each person vnderstands it ; any person of sound judgment in the reformation , may without scrupule believe what he vnderstands to be the doctrine of scripture . iv. dialogue . ismael . you still insist vpon that principle that our rule of faith , is scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it ; and from that principle will follow many absurd consequences destructive of piety and religion . isaac . that principle is not invented by me ; it s of our holy reformation ; if j did discourse with a papist j would prove the principle to be true and gods express word ; but since j discourse with a reformed child , j suppose , and not spend my time in proving it : this principle then , being an vnquestionable truth in our reformation , no reformed child must be so irreverent and bold as to say , that any doctrin which cleerly and vnauoidably follows out of it , is blasphemous or impious , for that would be to condemn our principle by which we walk : ex vero non sequitur nisi verum : from a true principle nothing can follow but true doctrin : can you deny , but this was the rule of faith and principle of our first blessed reformers , and of the church of england mentioned in her 39. articles ? if therefore they judged , and if any other judges by that rule and principle , that those tenets which you call impious and blasphemous be true doctrin ; they cannot be blamed for believing them . ismael . i confess our first reformers did speake so , but j say such errors and impious doctrins cannot without irreverence be called the doctrin of the reformation and cannot without impiety be belieued ; because our reformation , at present condemns and detests those blasphemies , for we must grant , that our reformation in its beginning was not in its full perfection of doctrin ; god began it by luther , caluin , zuinglius and others : those great men ha their fraylties ; they did ouerlash in som things ; and what they said amiss , gods heavenly spirit inspired to the church from time to time to correct it , and has at length brought our church to that purity of doctrin , and fullness of perfection which now it enjoyes : nothing is to be called now the doctrin of the reformation , but what is now believed by our congregations , and none of them believes those execrable tenets you related . isaac . you wrong the reformation very much , in saying it had not its full perfection in the beginning , it s rather to be thought , that that polishing and refining of it in ensuing years with new perfections , and correcting the first draught of it by our first reformers , has been a corruption of it with som mixture o● popish errors and superstitions : for all religious congregations , and pretenders to piety , are at the first beginning in the height of their perfection , and in progress of years they decline and decay from their primitive spirit into errors and corruption of manners : religious congregations are not like arts and sciences , wihich by tyme and experience receive new perfefections ; but like chimnies , which grow dayly blacker by continual smoke and fire : witness the jewish church and law , in its beginning , florishing and holy , but corrupted in progress of time by traditions of men and superstitions of pharisees : witness also the law of the ghospell in those happy tymes of the apostles , holy and pure , but corrupted after som years by errors of popery : jf wee be to seek for the pure and orthodox doctrin of the primitive church ; ought not we to be said by the apostles , men raised extraordinaryly by god and replenisht with his spirit to teach vs the ghospell ? and if wee be to seek for the pure and orthodox doctrin of the reformation , ought not wee to be said rather by luther , calvin , melancton , zuinglius , beza and our other first reformers , than by a few ministers and bishops of england , who , tho they be wise and pious men , yet they are not of that stamp as the others . and if our present congregations presume to correct them , and say they ouerlasht in their doctrin ; will not the papists say ; if they have been such scandalous masters and fals teachers , why did you receive their reformation , and as they erred so grosly in such prime articles of christianity , why do not you feare and suspect , they have also erred in the rest ? secondly the papists will say , if as they reformed vs , you reform them ; then you must expect and permit that others may reform you ; and forsake your doctrin , as you forsake theirs . ismael . i wish you could make out , that the reformation was in its full perfection in its beginning ; had you read som writers of ours ; perhaps you would judge otherwise ; a musculus , a learned lutheran writes thus , thus it is with vs at present , that if any be desirous to see a great rabble of knaues turbulent spirits , deceitfull persons , coseners and debauch men , let him go to a ci●ty where the ghospel is purely preached , and he shall find them by multitudes ; for its more manifest than the day light , that never were there more vnbridled and vnruly people among the turks and other infidels than the professors of the reformed ghospel . b luther himself saies as much ; the world grows dayly worse , and men are now more covetous , revengefull , and lycentious than they were in popery . mr. stubs c sayes no less : after my travells round about all england , i found the people in most parts proud , malicious , ambitious and careless of good works : mr richard geferie in his sermon at st. pauls cross printed in : 1604. i may freely speake what i have plainly seen , that in flanders ●ever was there more drunkness , in italy more wantonnes● , in lury more hypocrisy , in turkie more impiety ; in tartary more iniquity , than is practis'd generally in england , and particularly in london . certainly our reformation at present deserues a better caracter ; never did the alehouses and taverns complain more heauily of want of trading ; which is a proof of our sobriety : the churches which we see a building in london , is a good testimony of piety ; and we are so farr from any smack of hypocrisy , that you shall not see in all london the least appearance of virtue so hiddenly its kept from mortal eyes , but what you may meet in our honests quakers . isaac . i confess our congregations as now they are , are very good both in doctrin and manners ; but i say also , that the doctrin and manners of our reformation at its first beginning was as pure , as holy , and as true as now it is , or ever it will be . nay supposing and granted , their manners and doctrin were so corrupt as those drs. mention ; i say that amidst all those vices , their life was as holy , innocent , blamless and pure as yours is now : and that you may be convinc't of this truth , know that calvin expressy teachs : d wee belieue , the sins of the faithfull ( he means of the reformation ) are but venial sins ; not but that they deserve death , but because there is no damnation for the children of grace , in as much as their sins are not imputed to them ; and again e he saies , wee can assure ourselves , wee can no more be damn'd for any sins , than iesus-christ himself . luther f is of the same opinion , as nothing but faith doth justifiy vs , so nothing but incredulity is a sin . again g no sin is so great that it can condemn a man ; such as are , damn'd are damn'd only for their incredulitie : whitaker , h no sin can hurt a man who has faith . the same is taught by wotten , fulk , tindal , and beza . it s therefore the doctrin of scripture , as interpreted by these persons of great and sound judgment , that incests , murthers , intemperance or whateuer else you call a sin ( incredulitie excepted ) either is no sin at all , or but venial sins , which do no harm , nor cannot damn the children of the reformation ; if therefore our brethren lived in the beginning of the reformation , as those authors relate ; they liued according scripture as interpreted to them by men of sound judgment , and this being our rule of faith and manners , they did not ill but very well in following it . ismael . they were men of the reformation , its true , who taught these errors , and dissolution of life and good manners ; in so much they swerued from the spirit holyness and purity of the reformation , and must not be believed nor commended : looke vpon the reformation as now it is , and you will not find any such scandalous doctrin or corruption of manners . isaac . they were not only men of the reformation ; but the greatest oracles of it , which you will not match with any of our present congregations ; and it s not pardonable in any reformed child to say , such oracles extrordinarily raised by god to teach the purity of the ghospel , should have taught either errors in doctrin , or dissolution of manners : they taught what in their conscience they vnderstood by scripture to be true ; if you will not be so irreverent as to say that they were knaves , who spoke and taught against their conscience and kno●ledge . therefore they taught the doctrin of the reformation purely and truly : the consequence is euident● for , what is the doctrin of the reformation , but what wise learned men of sound judgment think and vnderstand by scripture to be true ? why is figuratiue presence the doctrin of the reformation , tho denied by lutherans , ( who are reformed also ) but because wise learned men judge by scripture as they vnderstand it , it s the true doctrin ? or can you give me any other rule of faith , by which wee may know what doctrin is of the reformation , and what not , but scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it ? or what rule can you give for to know what is good or euil to be don , but scripture as vnderstood b● such persons : if therefore luther , calvin and the other drs. j quoted judge by scripture that doctrin , and manner of life to be true and good ; why may not wee say its the doctrin of the reformation : if you or the church of england , or scotland judge that doctrin to be false , and that manner of life to be a dissolution and corruption of manners : why ; you are men of sound judgment , you vnderstand scripture so ; that will be the doctrin also of the reformation , you may believe it : but you must not deny that luther and calvins doctrin also is of the reformation , because they were men of as sound a judgmen as you . you transgress haynously against modestie in saying those sacred organs of god swerued from the spirit and holyness of the reformation ; which hauing no other rule of faith but scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it ; it 's spirit and holyness consist in framing our life and doctrin to that rule , as our blessed reformers and reformation in its beginning did ; believing those tenets , which you call errors and blasphemy ; and liuing that life which you call dissolution and corruption of manners ; because they judge by scripture , as they vnderstood it , that doctrin and manner of life was true , innocent and good ; and if you like it as they did , you may believe , and liue as they did , and be a good child of the reformation : consider i pray all the works and doctrin of luther , ( the like i say of our other first reformers ) the three parts of his doctrin is against popery , and they say , all are heresies and blasphemies ; the rest is contrary to the church of england , and she saies , this is also errors and blasphamie , so you conspire with the papists to destroy the credit of our first and best reformer ; and betwixt you both , you vnplume him of all his feathers , and leaue him not a bit of good doctrin . but i will stand to the spirit , and principles of the reformation and congregations as now they are , since that you do so much boast of its purity and great perfections ; and i will prove that doctrin , and manner of life , may be believed and followed lawfully standing to its principles : for if the spirit of the reformation be at present among vs , wee must not be forced , as in popery to believe against our proper judgments , what others believe by scripture to be ttue and holy ; but what each one thinks in his own conscience to be such ; because even now at present , our rule of faith , is scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it , and this is the same rule which luther and the reformation in its beginning had : this holy libertie is the best iewel , the greatest perfection , and most glorious prerogative the reformation has : if therefore now at present any man judges by scripture , that he can marry ten wyves at a time ; that he can kill his owne son as abraham intended ; that he may commit incest with his own daughter , as lot did ; that there is no sin but incredulity , as luther believed ; nor any mysterie of the trinitie of persons in one nature , as calvin believed : with what justice can the church of england say a man does not believe and live as becometh a reformed child , or that his doctrin and life is scandalous ? wheras he lives and believes as he vnderstands by scripture he may or ought to do , which is the rule of faith of the reformation , even of the church of england ? the church of england saies , the lutheran doctrin of the real presence , is not the doctrin of scripture ; that the presbyterian doctrin against episcopacy , is not the doctrin of scripture ; that the anabaptist doctrin against infants baptism , is not of scripture ; and yet you permit them all to live in peace ; you confess they are true children of the reformation , tho dissenters from you ; why ? because they follow scripture as they vnderstand it , and this is our rule of faith : and why will not you say , the belief and life of that other man is also of the reformation , tho absurd it may seem to you ; since he believes and lives as he judges by scripture he may : it follows therefore plainly that this is the doctrin of the reformation . ismael . i confess our rule of faith in the reformation , is scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it : but you cannot doubt but that its needfull to moderat and curb this libertie , or it may run too farr : for if every man be lycenc't to believe and teach every thing he fancies to be according scripture ; as there is no doctrin so execrable but som ignorant reader may hit vpon a text , which , ill vnderstood , may seem to favor it ; so there will be none but may be believed , and called the doctrin of the reformation : for example beza i teaches , ( and saies its also the doctrin of calvin , saumaize and geneve , ) that the lords supper may belawfully administer'd in any kind of victuals as well as in bread , and wine ; in eges , flesh , fish , &c. where there is no bread and wine , saies he , wee may duly celebrat , if insteed of them , we vse , what wee vsually eate and drink . and again in the same place ; if there be no water at hand , and that baptism ' cannot be with edification differed i would baptize in any other liquor : isaac . and why should not it be lawfull to any reformed to believe this , wheras its scripture as interpreted by a man of so sound a judgment ? but i do not in any wise like that opinion of yours and of the church of england , that its convenient to limit and curb mens judgments least they may run too farr : this is the policy of rome ; they will not permit an arbitrary interpretation of scripture , alleadging forsooth , for inconveniencie , the multitude of absurd doctrins which the word would swarm with , if such a libertie were granted : no , no ▪ far be it from any true reformed child to mislike or blame that all people should interpret scripture , and believe what they judge by it to be true : and if what the judge to be true , should seem to you fals and scandalous ; do not you believe it , but let them believe it , and they will be of the reformation , because they follow our rule of faith . ismael . k luther , l melancton , m musculus , n ochinus , o beza and others teach the lawfullness of bigamy or multiplicity of wives , and prove it with the example of abraham , isaac and jacob : and ochinus expounding the text of s. paul ; it behoueth a bishop to be a man of one wife : the prohibition saies he , is not to be vnderstood so , that a bishop should have but one wife at a time for certainly he may have many , but s. paul's meaning is , that he ought not to have too many wyves at a time ; that 's to say ten or twentie . isaac . and will you deny this to be the doctrin of the reformation , wheras its scripture as interpreted by men of so eminent and sound a judgment ? ismael . the synod of geneve ; p and the q ecclesiastical disciplin of france printed at saumure , has decreed , that a wife whose husband is a long time absent , may have him called by the public cryer , and if within a competent time he does not appear , without any further enquiry , the minister may lycence her to marry an other , or marry her himself . isaac . j say , all honest women may practise this doctrin without scruple or shame , wheras its scripture as interpreted by that thrice holy synod : but let seamen beware how they undertake long voyages , for feare their wyves may take other husbands in their absence . ismael . luther r teachs its lawfull to a wife , if her husband does not please her , to call her man servant , or her neighbour ; which doctrin they say is come to the eares of our london sisters ; and he gives the like libertie to the husbands , if their wyves be pettish and humorsom . if the husband saies he , cannot correct the humorsomness of his wife , he may imagin she is dead , and may marry an other because it s not in the pow●r of a man to live without a woman , nor in hers to live without a man. isaac . this is scripture as interpreted by luther , and consequently must not be denied to be the doctrin of the reformation ; nor can any of our reformation be justly punisht or blam'd for practising it , if he judges by scripture it be true , ( as luther did ) for this is our rule of faith . but luther never gave this libertie , but vpon condition , that the husband or wife should first make their complaint before a magistrat , for to have a redress of their injurie and discontent : but this condition seems too combersom to the modestie of our sisters ; they do no● submit to it , but do themselves justice without any address to the magistrat . ſ i know also that not only luther , but bucer , t melancton , u ochinus , x musculus and calvin● do tea●h that a man who finds his wife in adulterie , may cast her of by divorce and marry an other ; and our french synods have ordered thi● doctrin to be put in their ecclesiastical disciplin , so that its the doctrin of scripture as interpreted by these persons of sound judgment , and consequently of the reformation : you may therefore believe and practise it ; y our sisters , particularly our ministers wyves , were much alarm'd at this doctrin , and say its à damnable heresy : believe as you please . ismael . z does not luther say it● impossible a yong man of 20 years can liue without a woman ; or a yong maide of 18 years , without a man● whereby all parents may believe their daughters of that age are defiled , if not preferr'd in due time : sure you will not say this is the doctrin of the reformation . isaac . and who doubts but tha● its the reformed doctrin ; scripture as interpreted by so sound a judgment : the contrary doctrin is also of the reformation , and you may believe it because our glorious queen elizabeth dyed a virgin ; and it s credibly reported som few fellows of oxford and cambridge liue continently . ismael . but what do you think of a child christen'd in popery by a monk or a fryar , ought he to be christen'd again in our reformation ? and what if a popish priest or fryar did becom of our reformed church , can he lawfully marry , wheras he made a vow of chastity ? isaac . as to the first quere , it s the doctrin of the reformation declared by many french synods and recorded in their ecclesiastical disciplin , that he must be christen'd again , because the first baptism was null : it s also the doctrin of the reformation declared by the church of england and many synods of france , that the first baptism is sufficient and valid : believe which you please . it 's also the doctrin of the reformation , that infants baptism is not at all needfull ( nay nor lawfull say the anabaptists ) so saies calvin a zuinglius , beza and many others , it s likewise the doctrin of our 39. articles b ; and our holy synod of london c that infants baptism is lawfull and needfull . believe which you like best ; both are of the reformation . as to the second quere , it s the doctrin of the reformation that priests and fryars are obliged to the vow of chastity which they made in popery , and cannot marry ; this is the doctrin of many of our brethren and particularly of d hooker , e marloratus , budellus and f couel ; who say the papish vows of pouertie , obedience and chastitie are commendable and ought to be kept . you may also believe this is wicked doctrin , and that they may take wyues notwithstanding their vow of chastitie , as well as benefices notwithstanding their vow of pouertie : believe which you please ; both doctrins are of the reformation ; but the best is to say they can marry ; for if marriage and benefices were denied them , no priest or fryar would euer embrace our reformed doctrin : we know our great zuinglius himself would not at all preach the ghospell vnto the suitzers , vntill that he presented a petition for himself and his companions , ( all priests and fryars ) extant yet in his 1. tom. pag. 110. and obtained the contents of it , which was to have wyves ; nor can wee doubt this to be the best doctrin , wheras luther , beza and almost all our other reformers , were priests and fryars , and the first step they gaue in the reformation was to marry : the papists and som weake brethren were much scandalized at luthers marriage , and erasmus his rallerie vpon it was much solemnised , luther yesterday a monk , to day a husband , and next day à father , because that honest cate boren , his virtuous bride , was hapily delivred of a louey boy eight daies after he married her : but the servant of god did not regret the action , which proues that he judged by scripture it was very lawfull . v. dialogue . ismael . you know i have been born and bred in our holy reformation , and a church of england man ; you tell me i may believe this or that , and whateuer i please ; i would gladly settle once for ever , and resolve what j may , and ought to believe , and not to be euery day carried away with euery wind of doctrin : let me , to that purpose propose vnto you , and hear your resolution of som doubts . what do you think , have not wee a church on earth establisht by christ , wherin wee are to live and serve him , and believe her doctrin ? isaac . j will giue you no other instruction nor answer but the pure doctrin of the reformation ; which when you have heard , you may determin as you like best , what religion to embrace ; but know this , that after you have determin'd with yourself to believe this or that ; you may with a very safe conscience alter that resolution next day after , and believe the quite contrary to what you resolved to believe , if vpon better consideration you thinke the contrary to be true ; this is the libertie of the holy reformation as j proued in my first dialogue . as to your present doubt j answer , it s the doctrine of the reformation , that it was jesus christ the son of god who establisht the church ; you may believe it therefore : it 's also the doctrin of the reformation , that it was not jesus christ the son of god who establisht the church : that this is the doctrin of our reformation its apparent ; for its scripture as interpreted by ochinus a man of sound judgment , whom all italy could not match , saies calvin ; in whose presence england was happy , and vnhappy in his absence , saies b bale : ochinus speakes thus , a considering how the church was establisht by christ and washt with his blood ; and considering again how it was vtter●y ouerthrowen by papacy ; i concluded that he who establisht it , could not be christ the son of god , because he wanted prouidence ; and vpon this reflexion he renounced christ and became a jew : and no man can say but that he acted and behaued himself like a true child of the reformation in so doing ; for he followed scripture as he vnderstood it ; and as he was a true reformed child in forsaking popery , because he vnderstood by scripture , that the reformation was better ; so since he vnderstood by reading scripture more , that judaism was better than the reformation , he acted like a good reformed , in chosing that which he vnderstood by scripture to be the best : this is the reformations rule of faith : do you , if you please , as he did , and you 'l be as good a reformed as he . and if you choose to believe that there is a church establisht on earth by christ , you must beware never to believe or perswade yourself that wee are bound to believe her docctrin , or live in her , if you do not judge by scripture that she teachs the doctrin of christ : this is the most essential point of popery ; an obligation of submitting our judgments to the church , and believing her doctrin without any more examin ; and in this the church of england is much like the popish church , which by acts of parliaments and other severities , would oblige all men to believe her doctrin rites and ceremonies : no , god has given vs scripture for our rule of faith ; as wee forsook the popish church , because wee discouered by scripture her many errors in doctrin ; so wee are not bound to believe the doctrin of any other church , but as wee find by scripture her doctrin is true . do , and speake as luther to . 1. edit . jen. in resolut . i will be free , and will not submit to the authority of councils , popes church or vniversity ; to the contrary i will confidently teach whatever i judge to be true ; whether it be catholic doctrin or hereticall ; condemned or approued . ismael . must i not believe that the doctrin of jesus christ , delivered to his apostles and the church is true doctrin ? isaac . the reformation teaches it is , and you may safely believe it : you may as safely believe it is not , in the principles of the reformation ; because it teaches that christ err'd in doctrin and manners : vere pharisaei e●ant viri valde boni , saies luther ; b & christus minime debuit eos taxare : and calvin saies , it s a folly to think he was not ignoran● in many things ; c lastly david georgius d ( a man of god and of a holy life saies osiander ) writes . if the doctrin of christ and his apostles had been true and perfect ; the church which they planted had continued , but now it is manifest that antichrist has subverted it , as it 's manifest in papacy ; therefore it was false and impe●fect . see these words quoted in the historie of david george printed by the divins of basile , at antwerp an . 1568. both doctrins are scripture as interpreted by men of sound judgment ; a child of the reformation , may believe which he will. ismael . is it not the doctrin of the reformation that the apostles were infallible in their doctrin ! much more must wee believe that jesus christ was so . isaac . yes it is ; you may believe it : and it s also the doctrin of the reformation that they were not infallible , neither in their written or vnwritten doctrin ; so , many of our most renowned drs speake ; and whatever any men of sound judgment judge to be true by scripture , is the doctrin of the reformation : zuinglius , e one of the greatest oracles of our church saies ; it 's a great ignorance to believe any infallible authority in the ghospels or epistles of the apostles ; beza not inferiour to zuinglius , blotted out of s. john the historie of the woman adulteress ▪ judging it a fable . clebitius f affirms , that luk's relation of christ's passion is not true , because it does not agree with that of mathew and mark , and more credit is to be given to two , than to one . g calvin saies , peter consented to , and added to the schism of the church , to the ouerthrow of christian liberty , and christ's grace . h whitaker sais , it 's evident that after the descent of the holy g. the whole church , even the apostles , erred ; and peter erred in doctrin and manners i luther saies peter liued and taught extra verbum dei ; and brentius k his disciple saies , that peter and barnabas , togither with the church of ierusalem erred after receiving the h. ghost . if our rule of faith be scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it , vndoubtedly this must be the doctrin of the reformation , and may be believed by any reformed , since its scripture interpreted by such renowned men . ismael . this is most wicked doctrin , i 'l never believe it . isaac jf you think by scripture its wicked , do not : follow your rule of faith , scripture as you vnderstand it : but if an other vnderstands by scripture ( as those authors did ) that the doctrin is good , give him leave to believe it ; hee 'l but follow his rule of faith ; scripture as he vnderstands it . ismael . i would gladly know which are the true canonical bookes of scripture . isaac . the reformation teachs and you may believe with the church of england that s. paul's epistle to the hebrews ; those of james and jude ; the 2. of s. peter ; the 2. and 3 of s. john , are true cononical scripture ; the reformation also teachs they are not canonical , because lutherans deny them ; believe which you like best . but if you l ' live in peace , and out of all strife with protestants , lutherans , and others , who dispute , if this or that be canonical scripture ; your rediest and speediest way will be , to say ther 's no true canonical scripture ; scripture is no more to be regarded than other pious bookes : if you say this is not the doctrin of the reformation ; reade hossius de expresso verbo dei , & lib. de haer. where he relates this to be the doctrin of the swi●feldians , as good reformeds , as the best of vs : they say , that wee are not to regard any instruction from man or book , but gods immediat inspiration , which speakes secretly to our hearts ; for which they alleadge those comfortable words of the prophet , i will hear what my lord my god speakes in me : for say they , the book which we call scripture , is a creature , and we must not seeke for light and instruction from any creature , but from god the father of lights . this is scripture as interpreted by men of sound judgment : any child of the reformation may believe it . ismael . i thought to settle my mind in my choyce of som religion , and you go the way to beate me from all ; for if you renvers the authority of scripture , what warrant shall wee haue for any religion ? god forbid the reformation should deny the true canon , or the infallible truth of scripture ; and let all the world say the contrary , i will constantly revere and believe it's gods infallible word . isaac . how can you say i beate you from all religion , when i directly perswade you to follow the rule of faith of our reformation , scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it ; let this be your religion , if you will be a true reformed ; whateuer you judge in your conscience to be true ; let the church of england , or france or any other say and believe what they will ; you are to believe but what you judge by scripture to be true , and this is the religion of the reformation . ismael . j would gladly know , if it be lawfull to chop or change the text ? isaac . it 's the doctrin of the reformation , that you cannot , because god has forbid to add to , or take away from his word : and therefore wee condemn the papists for their traditions , obtruded vpon the flock as the word of god : it 's also the doctrin of the reformation , and the practise of our best reformers , when the text does not speake cleerly enough , that for to refute popery and establish our own doctrin , wee may add or diminish a word or two ; which is not to change the word of god , but to make it speake more expresly : as when luther had a mind to preach iustification by faith alone ; finding the text said but , man is justified by faith , he added the word alone , and made the text very cleer against popery , which formerly was somwhat obscure : zuinglius being to teach the figurative presence of christ in the sacrament , found the text , this is my body , to be too pat against his doctrin ; and insteed of is , put in , this signifieth : the church of england being to preach the kings spiritual supremacy , could not convince the obstinat papist by the original text which saide 1. pet. 2 submit yourselvts vnto every human creature for the lord's sake , whether it it be the king as excelling , or to , &c. but in king edwards time they altered one word , and made the text thus , submit yourselves to every ordinance of man , whether it be to the king as being the cheef head , and the following impressions of the bible the yeare 1557. and 79. saie , to the king as supreame . and so the true ductrin is cleerly convinced out of scripture : as also the lawfullness of priests marriage● for the text before the reformation said 1. cor. 9 have not wee power to leade about a woman sister ; and now our bibles say , have not wee power to leade about a wife being our sister : hence its evident according the doctrine and practise of our reformation , that when you have a mind to establish a doctrin which you judge to be true , you may change the text and make it speake to your sense and meaning , provided you judge your sense to be true . ismael . what do you think of iustifying faith ? does faith alone justify vs ? isaac . it 's the doctrin of the reformation , that without charity it cannot , because s. paul saies 1. cor. 13. if i have faith so as to move mountains , and have no charity , i am nothing , it 's also the doctrin of the reformation , that its impious and wicked to say , faith alone without charity does not justify ; this is scripture as interpreted by luther a man of sound judgment : l who say , quoth luther , that faith alone tho perfect it be cannot , justify without charitie ; say impiously and wickedly ; because faith alone without any good works doth justify . believe which doctrin you please , both are of the reformation . ismael . luther was insolent in checking the doctrin of s. paul. isaac . probably he did not reflect that it was the doctrin of the apostle ; and if you will have it to be a check of s. paul , luther m will answer for himself be it , saies he , that the church , augusti● or other drs , also peter and paul , nay and an angel from heaven should teach otherwise than as i teach , yet my doctrin is such that it setteth forth gods glory ; i know i teach no human , but divin doctrin . it 's the doctrin of the reformation that faith alone without any good works , and notwithstanding all sins you are guiltie of , doth justify you : this is scripture as interpreted by luther , who saies , nothing can damn you but incredulity , as nothing but faith can save you ; of whitaker , wotten fulk and beza whose words i related in our precedent dialogue ; which j believe you remember , and j need not repeat . jts also the doctrin of the reformation , that good workes are meritorious of grace and glorie ; n hocker and harmonia confess : o say its the doctrin of scripture ; and what any person of sound judgment judges to be the doctrin of scripture , he may believe it ; for this is our rule of faith : it s like wise the doctrin generally of all our church , that good works are not at all meritorious : tindal ( called by fox p a man of god and a constant martyr ) judges this to be so true that in his treatise de mammona iniquitatis he saies , christ himself did not by all his good works merit the glory : and tho the scripture saies expresly he did ; calvin q affirms , that its a foolish curiosity to examin , and a rash proposition to say christ did merit . jt's the doctrin of the reformation , that tho good works be not meritorious , nor have not the least influence in our justification or salvation ; yet they are absolutly needfull for both ; in as much as that true faith cannot be without good works ; because they are the marks and signs of a living faith , by which alone wee are saved ; this is the judgment of the church of england expressed in the 11. and 12. article , of the 39. and of melancton in locis commun . de bonis operibus , and you may believe it : you may also believe , and its the doctrin of the reformation , that good works are so farr from being needfull , that they are prejudicious and hurtfull to our salvation , and the best way to be saved is to do no good work at all ; this is scripture as interpreted by jlliricus , flaccius , amsdorfius quoted in act. colloq . aldeburg . pag. 205. and 299. and luther r was so deeply perswaded of this truth , that tho christ said , if ●hou wilt enter into the kingdom of heaven , keep the commandments : luther saies , it s an obstacle to our salvation to keep them : where it is said , quoth he , that faith in christ doth indeed justify vs , but that it is necessary also to keep the commandements , there christ is denied , and faith abolisht ; because that which is proper to faith alone is attributed to the commandements . and again ſ saies he , if faith be-acompanied with good works , it s ●o true faith ; that it may justifie it must be alone without any good works . this is scripture as interpreted by such eminent and sound men ; and consequently the doctrin of the reformation ; and who doubts but that any doctrin of the reformation may be believed . hence forward , when you hear the preacher exhort you to good works , you may believe him , if you please , and have a mind to spend your monies ; because he preaches the doctrin of the reformation : or you may laugh at him , and believe not a word he saies , because he preachs against the doctrin of the reformation . ismael . these are dangerous and scandalous tenets destructive of piety and christianity ; and let luther and those authors you quoted say what they please , the reformation , nor no honest man will ever believe such abominable doctrin . isaac . j do not say that the children of the reformation are obliged to believe them : they may believe as you do , that all are wicked tenets : but if luther and the others cited , judge in their conscience these tenets to be the doctrin of scripture , and if peter , john or james like their interpretation ; i say they may according the principles of our reformation believe them , and be as truly reformed children as you : for our rule of faith is scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it , and in believing those tenets , because they judge them to be the doctrin of scripture , they stick fast to , and follow our rule of faith : why is figurative presence , and the kings supremacie the doctrin of the reformation ; tho denied by papists , lutherans and presbyterians ? but because the protestants judge its the doctrin of scripture : if therefore those great authors i quoted , and any other with them judge those tenets to be the doctrin of scripture , they can be justly called the doctrin of the reformation : must protestants be forced against their judgments to deny real presence and supremacy , because lutherans say its wicked doctrin ? and why must luther , jlliticus , flaccius and others be forced to deny those tenets , tho protestants or papists judge them to be damnable i let each one believe what he thinks to be the doctrin of scripture , and he will still be a true reformed child . ismael . does not our reformation teach that it 's possible to all men assisted with gods grace to keep the commandments ? isaac . this is the doctrin of the church of england , and consequently of the reformation : it 's also the doctrin of the reformation delivered out of scripture as interpreted by luther , calvin , willet and several others , that its impossible to any man , assisted with what grace soever to keep the commandments . none has euer yet , saies our great calvin , t and god has decreed none shall ever keep the commandments : again , u the law and commandments were giuen vs , to no other end but that we should be damn'd by them , in as much as that it is impossible for vs to do what they command . the same doctrin is taught by luther in several places of his works , by willet , x and by our brethren the gomarists of holland , and many of our french synods . believe which you please , both doctrins are of the reformation . jt's also the doctrin of luther and calvin , that god does not cast men into hell because their sins deserve it ; nor save men because they merit it ; but meerly because he will have it so : he crowns those who have not deserved it saies luther , y and he punishes those who have not deserved it : t is gods wrath and seuerity to damn the one , 't is his grace and mercy to saue the other . calvin also , z men are damn'd for no other cause but because god will have it so ; he is the cause and author of their damnation ; their damnation is decreed by god when they are in their mother's womb , because he will have it so ; this is also the belief of our gomarists in holland , of many french churchs , and of several learned calvinists : tho the church of england denies this doctrin , none will dare say it s not the doctrin of the reformation , because its scripture as interpreted by such eminent men of our church . ismael . j will neuer believe such execrable doctrins ; nor will j euer be of any congregation which believes them . isaac . j do not advise you to believe them ; but to giue others leaue to believe them , if they think them to be the doctrin of scripture ; as luther , calvin , willet , gomarists and others do : you must not , if you be a true reformed child hinder any man from believing , nor be displeased with him for believing what he judges in his conscience to be the doctrin of scripture , for this is our rule of faith : will not you be of the congregation and religion of those , who follow scripture as their rule of faith , and believe what they judge in their conscience to be the doctrin of scripture ? ismael . yes j will , and am of such a congregation , for this is the rule of faith of the reformation . isaac . why then , you must be of the same congregation with the gomarists , luther , calvin and the others , who believe those which you call execrable doctrins , because they follow scripture as they vnderstand ; and believe those doctrins , because they judge them to be of scripture : you both follow the same rule , one goes one way , and the other an other , and both are of the reformation . the church of england vnderstands by scripture that god is not the author nor cause of sin , that he does not force vs to sin ; who doubts but that this is there fore the doctrin of the reformation ? but calvin , brentius , beza and several others vndestand by scripture ; that god is the cause and author which forces our will to sin ; that man , and the deuil , are but gods instruments to commit it : that murthers , incests , blasphemies , &c are the works of god , that he makes vs commit them : and who doubts but this also is the doctrin of the reformation being scripture as interpreted by such eminent and sound judgments ? god saies calvin , a directs , moues , inclins and forces the will of man to sin ; in so much that the power and efficacy of working , is wholy in him ; man , nay and satan when he impells vs , being only gods instruments which he vses for to make vs sin . zuinglius , willet , beza teach the same . vi. dialogue . ismael j am weary of hearing such horrid blasphemies ; my heart trembles to heare you say , that such abominable tenets may be believed according our rule of faith and principles of our reformation : i beseech you let me hear no more of such stuff : j conceive very well that mens judgments and consciences are not to be constrain'd to believe or deny this or that tenet , because the pope or his infaillable , forsooth , church wil have it so ; isaac . and must they be constrain'd to deny or believe because the fallible church of england or france will have it so ? ismael . no , j do not say they must , have patience , and heare me speake a whyle : j say that scripture must be our rule of faith , and not any pope , or church , or congregation ; and that wee are no to be forced by any to believe , but what wee vnderstand to be true by scripture ; and that if wee judge by scripture any doctrin to be fals and contrary to gods word ; wee must not be forced to believe it : but wee must not abuse this liberty : that wee should have libertie for to believe or deny supremacy , figurative presence , communion in one or both kinds , and such other inferior truths controverted among christians ; and that each congregation may in such articles , believe as it vnderstands by scripture to be true , may pass ; and it s practis'd in our reformed churchs : but that wee should run so farr , as to have libertie by our rule of faith to believe or deny the fundamental and chief articles of christianity , as the trinity , incarnation , divinity of christ , &c. that libertie ought not to be giuen : our reformation very wisely and piously permits the lutherans to believe one thing , the presbyterians an other , the protestants an other , and so of the rest : and all are true reformed children , because each of them believes as they judge by scripture to be true : but the reformation has neuer giuen , not neuer will giue liberty to interpret scripture against the fundamental articles of christanity : wee must be moderat ; and keep our rambling fancies within compass , and if any should judge and interpret scripture in favor of any scandalous and abominable tenets against christianity and good manners , he must be checkt , and not commended : this moderation the church of england vses and will never permit the contrary . isaac . j percevie a greate deale of popish blood to run in your veins , and that if you and your church of england , were in p●ower at the beginning of our reformation , wee should neuer have had a luther , calvin , beza , or such other noble and renowned reformers : by what j gather from your discourse , j do not see the breth of an inchs difference betwixt the church of rome and you and your church of england ; for the church of rome will not stick to grant , that gods word alone is her rule of faith , but so that none must believe any sense of it , but as she believes it , nor interpret any text , but receive her interpretation of it : the church of england has scripture for her rule of faith , and gives vs libertie for to interpret , vnderstand , and believe som texts of it , as each one thinks best ; and so permits presbyterians to deny episcopacy , lutherans to deny figurative presence , &c. and confesses they are all her brethren of the reformation , but she will give no libertie at all for to interpret other texts , but all must vnderstand them as she does , or all must be heretiks and damn'd men : no , that text , my father and i are one , must be interpreted to signifie the unitie in nature of the father and son , as the church of england believes ; none must interpret it otherwise : so that the difference betwixt the popish church and that of england is ; the first giues vs no liberty at all : the second giues us som libertie ; the first robs vs of all ; the second but of the one half : the rule of faith in popery is scripture as interpreted by the pope and councils ; the rule of faith in england as to som articles is scripture as interpreted by the church of enggland ; and as to other articles , scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it : and thus protestants , are but half papists , and half reformed , and both these ingredients will never make a good compound . let any vnbyass'd and impartial man judge if the church of england proceeds justly in this : for if our rule of faith be scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it , as she mentions in her 39. articles ▪ and as the whole reformation believes , if wee are not to be constraind , to believe any church , council , or mans sense of scripture , if wee do not judge by the word of god its true ; by what authority rule or reason , can the church of england give me libertie to vnderstand and believe som texts as j please ; and deny me libertie for to vnderstand and believe others , as j judge by scripture they ought to be vnderstood ? j pray observe well this discourse : heer are luther , calvin , beza , zuinglius and our other first reformers ; they interpret som texts against the doctrin of rome , and others against the doctrin of the church of england : they are praised for the first , and esteemed apostolical reformers , because without any regard of what the church of rome said , they freely taught and believed what they judged by scripture to be true ; why must not they be praised and esteemed true reformers also , for not regarding what the church of england or any other saies ; but teach the impossibility of gods commandments , the sufficiency of faith alone , and all those other tenets which you so much mislike , since they judge by scripture , that to be the true doctrin : are they bound to submit their judgments to the church of england more than to that of rome ? ismael . but in those tenets they do not only contradict the church of england ; but all christian churchs and congregations ; for all will say those are wicked and scandalous doctrin . isaac . and if they judge by scripture that those tenets are not such , but sound and good doctrin , may not they believe them , tho all the world and ten worlds did gainsay them ? is not scripture our rule of faith , and are wee to regard what any church or all churchs say , further than wee find by scripture that they say well ? but being these tenets , which you call horrid blasphemies displease you i 'll change my discourse ; and because i see you are popishly inclined , j will shew you how by the principles of our reformation , you can be as good a papist as the pope ; one principle excepted , wherin you must dissent from the church of rome , if you intend to remain a true reformed child . ismael . you promise too much , and more than j desire to know ; j don't desire to have any communication with the pope , i know by the writings of our authors what kind of beast he is . isaac . by your favor , you may believe the popes are worthy , honest , and godly men ; many drs. of our reformation , and our travellers to the court of rome give this testimonie of them ? you may also believe , that popes and cardinals are knaves and atheists , who looke on scripture as a romance and deny the incarnation of christ , for calvin saies so , and would never have said it , if it had not been true : but beware not to speake so in rome , or they 'l lodge you where honest taylor the quaker was ; nor in spain , or they 'l stop your mouth with an inquisition faggot . ismael . j care not what the pope or cardinals are ; but j would gladly know , what religion and congregation you are of ; for wheras you are my immediat instructor ; it behoues me to know what religion you have . isaac as to my religion , i doubt not but that my readers will be devided in their judgments of me ; if a papist reades me , hee 'l sweare i am an atheist ; but j hope he will not pretend to be infallible as his pope : if a protestant , hee l say , i am a papist ; and that my drift is to cast dirt vpon his church : the honest quaker will say , i am a profane man ; others perhaps will say i am of no religion , but a despiser of all ; and our congregations are so vncharitable that likely none will accept of me , because i say all religions are very good : a sad thing that a man must be hated for speaking well of his neighbours ; and that each one must have all the world to be naught but himself : this then is my religion , to suffer persecution for justice and truth ; to render good for evil ; to bless those who curse me ; and speake well of all congregations , whylst they speake all evil against me : reflect well vpon what j discoursed hitherto , and you will find , j am as great a louer of the reformation as they who may think me its enemie ; and reade my following discourse and you will find i loue popery as well as the reformation : the spirit of god makes no exception of persons . ismael . you promised to proue by the principles of the reformation , that wee may believe all the tenets of popery , and remain still of the reformation : how can this be ? isaac . you remember i excepted one principle of poperie , wherin you must necessarily dissent from them : and if you deny this one principle , you may believe all their others tenets as well as the pope ; and be as ●ood a child of the reformation as luther . ismael . what principle is this , which you seem to make the only distinctive sign of a reformed , from a papist . isaac . listen a whyle : a papist is not a papist because he believes purgatory , transubstantiation , indulgences , and the rest of popish tenets , but because he believes them vpon the testimonie of the pope and church , because they assure him they are revealed truths : if a papist did say , j believe these tenets because i myself do judge by scripture that they are revealed ; and not , because the pope and church say they are ; he would be no papist : the papist believes the mystery of the trinity , the incarnation and passion of christ : the protestant believes the same mysteries ; yet the one is a papist and no protestant ; the other is a protestant and no papist . and why ? because the papist believes them vpon the testimonie of the pope and church , the protestant believes them vpon the testimony of gods written word : believe then whatever you please of popery , provided you believe it , because you judge by scripture its true , and not because the pope or the church sayes it ; you 'l never be a papist but a perfect reformed . ismael . if this discourse be solid , you may hedge in all the articles of popery into our reformation . isaac . if you peruse the works of our reformed drs you 'l hardly find any article of popery , but has been judged by many , or som of our best reformed drs , to be the true doctrin of scripture ; and wheras any doctrin which any person of sound judgment vnderstands by scripture to be true may be justly called the doctrin of the reformation ; it follows that hardly is there any article of popery , for which wee see so many persecutions againsts subjects , and such troubles in our parliaments , but is truly the doctrin of the reformation . ismael . shew me som examples of this . isaac . the veneration of relicks and saints dead bones , is generally believed by vs to be meer popery and superstition ; therefore wee made no store of luther and calvins bones , tho wee know them to be as great saints as any in the popish church : but veneration of relicks and saints bones , is the doctrin of our reformation ; for whatever is set down and commended by our common prayer book , must be vndoubtedly esteemed our reformed doctrin and practice , and our common prayer book printed since our kings happy restauration , in its kalender sets down a day to the translation of s. edward king of saxons body in the month of june ; and dedicats an other to the translation of the bodies of s. martin and swithin , in the month of july . the veneration and vse of the sign of the cross , is flat popery in the judgment of all our congregations ; yet any reformed child may laudably and piously vse it ; wheras our common prayer book in the administration of baptism , commands the minister to vse it , saying , wee sign him with the sign of the cross , in token that heerafter he shall not be ashamed , to confess the faith of christ crucified , and manfully to fight vnder his banner against sin , the world and the deuil . and in our kalender printed since his majesti's restauration , it s called the holy cross . our congregations generally believe , its popery to keep holy daies ( except the sabboth day ) and saints daies ; to fast lent , vigils , commanded , emberdays , and fridaies ; and all this is recommanded to vs in our common prayer book , and the minister is commanded , in the administration of the lords supper , to publish the holy daies of the week , and exhort vs to fast ; and surely , he is not commanded to teach , or exhort vs to any thing , but to the doctrin of the reformation : it 's true the students of our colledges of oxford and cambridge , are much troubled with scruples in this point : these pauperes de lugduno , are compelled to fast all fridays throughout the yeare ; and it s not hungar that makes them complain , but tenderness of conscience , because they feare its popery . it 's a popish error , wee say , to believe that pennance , or our penal works of fasting , almsdeeds , or corporal austerities , can auaile and helpe for the remission of our sins , and satisfying gods justice : no , we say , penal works , serue for noting ; all is don by repentance ; that 's to say , by sorrow of heart for having offended god. this is the doctrin of danaeus , willet , junius and calvin , who saies francis , dominick , bernard , antony , and the rest of popish monks and fryars , are in hell for their austerities and penal works : for all that , you may very well believe , and its the doctrin of the reformation , that pennance and penal works , do auaile for the remission of our sins , and are very profitable to the soule ; for , our common prayer booke in the commination against sinners , saies thus ; in the primitive church , there was a godly disciplin , that at the beginning of lent , such as were notorious sinners , were put to open pennance , and punisht in this world , that their soules may be saued in the day of the lord. and our common prayer booke wishes , that this disciplin were restored again ; and surely , it does not wish that popery were restored ; therefore it s no popery to say , that pennance or penal works , do satisfy for our sins in this world , and auaile to save vs in the other . ismael . i know , many of our congregations , mislike much our common prayer booke for these popish tenets ; but what do you say of the grand errors of popery , can a man be a true child of the reformation , and yet believe the popes supremacy ; deny the kings supremacy ; believe transubstantiation and communion in one kind ; are these tenets , the doctrin of the reformation , or consistent with its principles ? isaac . the kings supremacy is vndoubtedly the doctrin of the reformation ; because it s judged by the church of england to be of scripture : yet not only the quakers , presbyterians , anabaptists , and other congregations , judge it s not of scripture , but as erroneus a tenet , as that of the popes supremacy ; calvin 6. amos , saies ; they were vnaduised people and blasphemers , who raised king henry the viii . so far as to call him the head of the church ; but also that no civil magistrat can be the head of any particular church , is the doctrin of the centuriators cent . sept . pag. 11. of cartwright , viretus , kemnitius and many others ; who doubts then but that in the principles and doctrin of the reformation , you may deny the kings supremacy , tho the church of england believes it . the popes supremacy is the doctrin of popery ; who doubts it ? but it s also the doctrin of the reformation , for many of our eminent drs. haue judged it to be the doctrin of scripture ; as whitgift , a who cites calvin , and musculus for this opinion : but its needfull wee relate som of their express words , i do not deny saies luther , b but that the bishop of rome , is , has been , and ought to be the first of all ; i believe , he is aboue all other bishops , it s not lawfull to deny his supremacy : melancton c saies no less that the b. of rome is aboue all the church ; that it is his office to govern , to judge in controversies , to watch ouer the priests , to keep all nations in conformity and vnity of doctrin : somaisius , d the pope of rome has been without controversie the first metropolitan in italie , and not only in italie , nor only in the west , but in all the world , the other metropolitans have bin chief in their respective districts , but the pope of rome has bin metropolitan and primat , not only of som particular dioces , but of all . grotius e has expresly the same doctrin and proves this supremacy belongs to the pope de iure divino . j pray consider if these drs. be not men of sound judgment , and of eminent learning and credit in our reformation , and if our doctrin be scripture as such men vnderstand it , consider i say with what justice can this doctrin be called popery more than reformed doctrin . as for transubstantiation , it contains two difficulties ; first if the body of christ be really in the sacrament ; and this real presence , the lutherans defend to be the doctrin of scripture , as well as the papists ; why then should it be called popish , more than reformed doctrin ? the second is , if the substance of bread , be in the sacrament togither with christs body : lutherans say it is ; papists say it is not , but that there is a transubstantiation , or change of the whole substance of bread , into the body of christ ; but hear what luther f saies of this that wee call popish doctrin ? i give all persons libertie to believe in this point , what they please , without hazard of their salvation , either that the bread is in the sacrament of the altar , or that it is not . would luther have given this liberty , if transubstantiation had not been the doctrin of the reformation as well as any other ? calvin g also and beza h affirm , that luther's doctrin of the coexistence of christ's body and the bread , is more absurd , than the popish doctrin of the existence of the body alone ; if therefore wee be true reformed , and safely believe the doctrin of luther , which is the most absurd ; much more will we be of the reformation , by believing that of the papists , which is less . communion in one kind , is the doctrin of the reformation , no less than communion in both : for besides that luther saies , i they sin not against christ , who vse one kind onely , seeing christ has not commanded to vse both ; and again , k tho it were an excellent thing to vse both kinds in the sacrament ; and christ has commanded nothing in this , as necessary , yet it were better to follow peace and vnity , than to contest about the kinds ; but also melancton ; l who in the opinion of luther surpasses all the fathers of the church ; expresly teachs the same doctrin : and the church of england statut 1. edward vi. commands . that the sacrament be commonly administer'd in both kinds , if necessitie does not require otherwise ; mark , he saies but commonly ; and that for som necessity it may be receved in one ; lastly th● sufficiency of one kind in the sacrament , is plainly set down by our reformed church of france in her ecclesiastical disciplin printed at saumur , chap. 12. art . 7. the minister must give the bread in the supper to them , who cannot drink the cup , provided it be not for contempt . and the reason is , because there are many who cannot endure the tast of wine : wherefore it often happens among them , that som persons , do take the bread alone : and truly if som of our ministers in england , do not give better wine than they are acustomed , who very irreverently serve that holy table with naughtie trash , it s much to be feared , that our flock will also petition to be dispens'd with in the cup ; because there are som of so delicat palats , that they cannot endure the tast of bad wine . now , you may admire the injustice of the papists in condemning our reformed doctrin and doctors as hereticks , wheras those tenets are believed by many of vs , as well as by them ; and the groundless severity of our congregations in exclaiming against that doctrin ; it being the doctrin of the reformation , wheras so many eminent men of our own , judge it to be of scripture . ismael . wheras i see people persecuted by the church of england for these tenets , i can hardly be perswaded they are the doctrin of the reformation : at our next meeting wee will pursue this discourse ; the bell rings for morning prayers ; a dieu . vii . dialogue . isaac . you come from church , as i guess by the common prayer booke i see in your hands , i pray let me see the kalender of it ; if it be à la mode nouvelle , which was made by the church of england , since his majesties restauration . ismael . why ? have you met any thing in it , which shocks you ? isaac . shock me ? no doctrin or practice of any congregation , or man of sound judgment of our church can shock me ; you know , i pleade for libertie to believe and practise as each one judges by scripture to be true and good . but i observe in your kalender , you have a day consecrated to s. ann in the month of of july ; i would gladly know , what ann is this , which the church of england honors so much ? ismael . it 's ann , the mother of the virgin mary . isaac . is 't possible ? j thought it was ann bolen the mother of our virgen elizabeth : j am sure the church of england , is more obliged to her , than to the other : but as you have put heer the mother of the virgin mary , why did not you put in also elizabeth mother of the great baptist ; and the angel gabriel , as well as michael ? ismael . j know not indeed . isaac . nor do j know , if it be not , because that elizabeth and gabriel made the popish ave maria , as scripture relates ; but can you tell , as the church of england put in your kalender , s. george , s. andrew and s. david , patrons of england , scotland and wales ; why did not she put in s. patrick patron of ireland ? ismael . j can't tell ; what may be the reason , think you ? isaac . j know not , if it be not that he forfeited his place for his purgatorie ; for tho the others were as deep in popery as he , ) if wee believe the papists ; ) but the parliament pass'd an act of indemnity for england , scotland and wales after the kings return to his kingdoms ; and thereby the sin of popery was forgiven to their patrons ; and no act of indemnitie was past for jreland , whereby patrik is still guiltie ; if it be not , that the seaven champions of christendom tell us s. patrick was s. george his footman , and it was not thought good manners , to put him in the same rank with his master . ismael . for shame , if not for piety , forbeare , j cannot endure to sully sacred things with profane ralleries ; the kalender is a holy institution of the church , and ought to be reverenc'd . isaac . and so is episcopacy , surplices , bells , organs , and corner capps ; yet j hope you will give presbyterians , anabaptists , quakers , &c. leave to laugh at them : and be still as good children of the reformation as you : if you esteem them to be sacred and holy , reverence and honor them ; j commend you for it ; if others judge otherwise let them follow their humor ; each one as he fancies , saies the fellow kissing ●his cow ; this is the holy libertie of the reformation , scripture as each one vnderstands it . ismael . let vs return to our last discourse ; how is it possible , that those tenets of popery , should be the doctrin of the reformation , wheras wee see the church of england so severely persecut the professors of them ? isaac . do you think a doctrin is not of the reformation , because it s denied by the church of england ? or because she persecutes the professors of it ? do not they persecute all non conformists , as well as popery ? persecution is no proof of a doctrin to be bad ; it 's but the effect of a blind zeale armed with power : for to know certainly if a doctrin , be of the reformation , you must trye it by our test or rule of faith , which is the written word of god ; and whateuer any man of sound judgment , of a sincere and humble heart judges to be contained in scripture , or an indubitable consequence out of it ; that man , may believe that doctrin , let all others judge of it as they list ; and by so believing will be a true child of the reformation ; wherefore , since that the church of france , that of england in edward the vi. time , luther , melancton , grotius , and the other authors j quoted , do judge transubstantiation , popes supremacy , and communion in one kind to be the doctrine of sctipture : wee must call it the doctrin of the reformation ; and if you judge as they did , you may believe that doctrin , and be still of the reformation , as well as they . ismael . can you shew me any other tenet of popery , which you can call the doctrin of the reformation . isaac . alas ! you can hardly shew me any tenet of popery , but what is its doctrin ; what doctrin more popish than that of confession and absolution from sins ? yet it s as truly the doctrin of the reformation , as figurative presence : for not only a lobechius , b altamerus , c sarcerius and d melancton say , it s a sacrament : but the church of england in our common prayer booke , declares that priests have not only the power of declaring their sins to be forgiuen to the penitents , but also the power of forgiuing them : and sets down the form of absolution , which the minister is to vse ; our lord iesus christ , who left power to the church , to absolve all sinners which truly repent , of his mercie forgive thee and thine offences ; and i by his authoritie committed vnto me , do absolve thee from all they sins : the ministers of the diocess of lincoln in their survey of the book of common prayers , checkt this doctrin as popery , and petitioned to have it blotted out ; but could not prevaile ; whereby we are given to vnderstand , it s the doctrin of the reformation . it 's popery , wee say , to call extream vnction , confirmation , and holy order of priesthood , sacraments : and who can justly denie all this to be the doctrin of the reformation ? for calvin e saies , i confess , the disciples of christ did vse extream vnction as a sacrement ; i am not , saies he , of the opinion of those , who judge it was only a medecin for corporal diseases : calvin f also , and with him our common prayer book and all our divins say , a sacrament is nothing els , but a visible sign of the invisible grace wee receive by it ; and they say with g couel , h hooker and others that this definition fits exactly confirmation ; wherfore the ministers of the diocess of lincolne , checkt the common prayer book , for giving the difinition of a sacrament to confirmation . i melancton , k bilson l hooker and m calvin expresly teach , that the order of priesthood , is a sacramēt . and when men of so eminēt judgment of our reformation teach , this to be the doctrin of scripture , who doubts but that it is of the reformation . ismael . by this , you destroy the doctrin of the reformation , of two sacraments only . isaac . destroy it ? god forbid : because the church of england saies , there are but two sacraments , i say its the doctrin of the reformation , there are but two : and because so many eminent men judge by scripture there are more , j say its the doctrin of the reformation there are more , that 's to say six , baptism , confirmation , eucharist , pennance , extrem unction and holy order : and every likely our bishops and ministers , for their wyves sake , will not stick to grant that matrimony also is a sacrament . ismael . but can you say , that prayers to saints and jmages , prayers for the dead , and purgatorie , are not meer popery , and in no wise the doctrin of the reformation ? isaac . without doubt , those tenets are popery ; but all the world knows , the lutherans vse jmages in their churchs and pray before them ; and the ●oly synod of charenton has declared , as wee said in our first dialogue , that the lutherans have nothing of superstition or idolatry in their manner of divin worship ; this is also the doctrin n of jacobus andreas , o brachmanus , p kemnitius , luther and brentius quoted by beza q and why should not a doctrin judged by such eminent men to be of scripture , be called the doctrin of the reformation ? prayers for the dead and purgatorie , is popery confessedly ; but alas , it is taught expresly by urbanus , regius r bucer , ſ zuinglius , t melancton , u luther , x the common prayer book in king edwards time printed 1549. and many others of our learned drs , and what can you call more properly the doctrin of the reformation , than what such men teach to be the doctrin of scripture : and tho our brethren , quakers , anabaptists , presbyterians and protestants judge prayers to angels and saints to be nothing else but popery : yet our common prayer booke has the same collect or prayer to angels in s. michael's day , that the popish mass book has , and desires that the angels may succour and defend vs on earth : and prayers to , and intercession of saints is taught by luther , y bilneus and latimer quoted by fox z and consequently its the doctrin of the reformation . ismael . if all these popish articles , may be safely believed by the reformation , and be the doctrin of our reformed church , as well as of popery ; what difference then betwixt vs and popery : or why are we called a reformation of popery , or why did wee separat from them ? isaac j have told you already , that our difference from popery , is not , because wee must deny what they believe , for wee believe as well as they the unity and trinity of god , the jncarnation of his son , &c. but in this , that the papists believe because the pope and church saies this is true revealed doctrin : but wee believe not because any church , pope or doctor saies so , but because wee ourselves judge by scripture it is so : for if a papist did say , i do not believe this is a revealed truth , because the pope and church saies it is , but because i find by scripture it is ; he would be no papist : believe then whatever doctrin you will , either popery , iudaism , protestancy , arianism or what else you please , provided you judge by scripture it is true , and that you believe it , not because this or that church , congregation , or drs believe it , but because yourself judges it to be true ; you 'l be a true child of the reformation : and this is the reason why wee are called a reformation , and why wee separated from them , because they would haue vs take for our rule of faith scripture as interpreted by them ; and believe , not what wee judge to be the doctrin of scripture , but what they judge ; and this is also the reason why ptesbyterians are jealous with the church of england ; why anabaptists forsake presbyterians , why these are forsaken by quakers , because each one would haue the world judge as they do , and persecute and trouble one another , which is quite against the spirit of the reformation , for wher as our rule of faith is no church , congregation or man , but scripture as each one vnderstands it ; it follows that by our principles , every one must be permitted to believe whatever he pleases ; and by so doing , he will be a true child of the reformation . ismael . the church of england nor any of our congregations , will neuer believe any of those popish tenets . isaac . the time may come , that they may believe them all , and be still as good reformeds as now they are : for if the pope and his church should to morrow deny and excommunicat those tenets , which now they so stedfastly believe ( and i hope they will som day ) then it would be a pious and virtuous action in all reformed children , to believe them all , as much as now they deny them : and let vs pretend what other reason : wee please : but it s very certain that the strongest reason wee can haue to deny those articles , is because the pope and his church believes them , and consequently , if the popish church , would but deny them , wee might and ought to believe them : you will think this a paradox ; but listen to our apostolical and divin luther : a if a general council , saies he , did permit priests to marry ; it would be a singular mark of piety and sign of godlyness in that case to take concubins , rather than to marry in conformity to the decree of the council , i would in that case command priests not to marry vnder pain of damnation . and again saies he ; b if the council should decree communion in both kinds ; in contempt of the council , i would take one only kind or none . see these words of luther quoted by our learned hospinian c and jewel d and see it s not only my doctrin but of great luther , that in case the pope and council deny all the tenets , they now believe ; wee may , and it will be a pious godly action to believe them , and make as many acts of parliament for them , as now wee have against them . but what 's the matter ? me thinks you become pale som thing troubles you , speake , what i st ? ismael . it 's the horror j conceive against your discourse , my countenance cannot be in a calm , when my mind is in such a storm and confusion ; pursue no more : you said enough , that j should curse the day j haue euer seen you , or heard that , which you call holy liberty , which is but a prostitution of consciences , a profanation of all that is sacred , and an open gap to all impiety in doctrin and manners : but j hope the lord has giuen me that profound respect and attache to our holy reformation , that i shall not be beatten from it by all your engines , able to inspire a contempt and hatred of it to any weake brother : for who would liue a moment in it : if such impious tenets , such sandalous and blasphemous doctrins were of it , or were vnauoidable sequeles out of its principles : no , no , the principles of the reformed church , are sound and orthodox , and no doctrin can follow from them , but what 's pure and true . isaac . let me tell you , j have as tender a loue for the reformation , as you : and j will maintain the holy libertie j assert , cannot justly be called a prostitution of consciences ; for , you dare not deny but this is an orthodox and sound principle , that our rule of faith is scripture as ●ach person of sound judgement vnderstands it ; that it is lawfull for each person of sound judgment to reade it , to giue his judgement of the true sense of it , and to believe and hold that sense of it , which he thinks in his conscience to be true ; is there any prostitution of consciences in this doctrin ? or is it not the doctrin of our reformation ? ismael . all this in true , the prostitution of consciences leyes not there ; but in the scandalous and blasphemous tenets , which you pretend that follow out of that rule of faith . isaac . but you wrong the reformation in calling such tenets blasphemies and scandals : for since our rule of faith is scripture as each person of soud judgment vnderstands it ; if this rule of faith be good and sound ; if it be religious and holy ; any doctrin that is conformable to this rule , must be good , sound , religious and holy ; this being our rule of faith and manners , it s cleerer than day light , that all and each tenet which j rehearsed in all my former discourses , are consormable to our rule of faith ; for our rule is , scripture as each man of sound judgment vnderstands it . our doctrin therefore must be , what any person of sound judgment vnderstands to be the doctrin of scripture . this is an evident sequele out of that principle , and wheras there is not one tenet of all those which j rehearsed , whether they concern doctrin or manners ; but was judged by the doctors , which j cited for it , to be the doctrin of scripture ; it follows vnauoiably , that there is not one tenet of them , but is the doctrin of the reformation : therefore you must be forced to either of these two ; either to say that our rule of faith , by which such doctrins are warranted , is naught , wicked and scandalous , and leads to a prostitution of consciences and manners ; or that all those tenets , are good , sound , pious , and no prostitution or corruption of our consciences : for , pick and choose out the doctrin which you think to be the most wicked and scandalous of all those j rehearsed ; you cannot deny , but that it was taught by the author j quoted for it , and judged by him , to be the doctrin of scripture : and if no doctor hitherto had believed it , you or j , or som other person of sound judgment , may judge it to be the doctrin of scripture : either of both then , you must be constrained to grant : or that the doctrin of the reformation , is not what each person of sound judgment vnderstands to be the doctrin and sense of scripture , which is as much as to say , that our rule of faith must not be scripture as wee vnderstand it , but that wee must believe against our own judgment and conscience , what others say is the doctrin and sence of scripture : or you must grant that all and each of those tenets j rehearsed , is the doctrin of the reformation , tho you , or this , or that man may judge them to be blasphemies and scandals ismael . j confess our rule of faith in the reformation is scripture as each person vnderstands it ; for all our reformed churchs , with the church of england inher 39. articles do giue vs this rule of faith : i confess consequently out of this principle , that wee must not believe what doctrin or sense of scripture others judge to be true and orthodox , if wee do not ourselues judge it to be such , for wee must not be forced to believe against our judgments : lastly i confess wee may safely believe , whatsoeuer doctrin wee seriously judge to be doctrin of scripture , but prouided , that such a tenet or doctrin be not plainly against scripture , and be not plain and downright impiety and blasphemie . isaac . and in case you , or the church of england , rome , france , or germany judges a doctrin to be blasphemous and against scripture , and luther , or calvin or j , or an other , judges it is good doctrin and conformable to scripture ; to which judgment must j stand ? must j believe yours against my conscience and knowledge ▪ or must not j believe my own ? is it not the principle and practice of our reformation , that j must believe what j judge in my conscience to be scripture , and not what others judge , if they judge the contrarie ? when luther began the reformation , did not almost all christians , and the whole church believe purgatorie and prayers to saints to be the doctrin of scripture ; and did not he , very commendably , deny it against them all , because he judged by scripture it was not ? will a presbyterian believe episcopacy because the church of england saies its the doctrin of scripture ; no , but deny it because himsef judges it is not . ismael . it s true , each one may lawfully believe what himself judges to be the doctrin of scripture ; prouided he be a godly wel intentioned man , humble and meeke in spirit ; provided secondly , that what he vnderstands to be the sense and doctrin of scripture , be not absurd and impious in the judgment of all the rest of the faithfull : for , let a man be euer se learned and godly , if he gives an interpretation of scripture , which is denied by all the church , he must not be followed isaac . your first prouiso is very good , and j hope you will meet no doctor of all those j quoted for those tenets , which you call blasphemies , who was not a learned , godly humble and well intentioned man , who will be so bold as to deny it of luther , calvin , beza , zuinglius , &c. your second proviso is not just , and in it you ouerthrow the whole reformation , and our rule of faith ; for this being , as you granted , scripture as each person of sound judgment vndestands it ; whateuer interpretation or sense any man of sound judgment vnderstands to be of scripture , he may safely and piously believe it , tho all the rest of the world should judge it to be impious and blasphemous ; otherwise our rule of faith , must not be scripture as wee vnderstand it ; but as it is vnderstood by others : and wheras no tenet , of all those j rehearsed , but was judged to be the sense and doctrin of scripture by som of those eminent drs. i quoted ; it follows , they might have safely believed them ; and if you or j judge as they did , wee may also believe as they did , and be still of the reformation . ismael . it 's wicked and pernicious to say , any particular person may believe his own privat sense and interpretation of scripture , if it be judged by all others to be naught ; and therefore the church of england , prudently and wisely , puts a stop and bridle to the extravagant and rambling imaginations of particular persons ; they must conform themselves , and believe but what the church judges may be safely believed . isaac . pray sr. , since when is it cōmendable to constrain mens judgments to believe , not what each one thinks best , but what the church thinks may be safely believed ? was this commendable in the beginning of our reformation , when our blessed reformers began to teach their privat judgments against the church then establisht ? if it was ; then the church of rome is to be commended , for persecuting and excommunicating our first reformers ; and if this was not , nor is not commendable in the church of rome ; why is it commendable in the church of england ? this is a peece of popery , wherof the church of england is guiltie , and for which all our congregations are iealous of her : be it knowen to you , our other congregations , lutherans , calvinists , anabaptists , &c. are as truly and godly children of the reformation as the church of england ; and they will not submit to that popish tyranny , nor suffer any curb to their judgments , but will have our rule of faith to be but scripture , and each one to vnderstand , and believe it , as he thinks best in the lord. ismael . j confess , other congregations will admit no such curb , nor bridle to their judgments , but follow scripture as they vnderstand it ; but the church of england has a reverent regard for the sense and interpretation of it given by the primitive ages , fathers and councils ; and that wee prefer before the privat interpretations of particular persons . isaac . and just so saied the popish church to luther and our first blessed reformers ; and if that had been well d●n ; wee should have had , neither protestancy , nor any other reformation : but you confess at least , that the rule of faith in all other congregations , is but scripture as each person vnderstands it , and each person may consequently believe his own sense of it , and deny the sense of any other if he does not like it : then you must confess , that in all other congregations , except the church of england , any reformed child may believe any sense and doctrin , which any person of sound judgment judges to be scripture , if himself likes it , tho all the rest of the world may think it naught ; and wheras you cannot deny , but that all and each dr. quoted by me for those tenets , which you call blasphemies , were sound and able judgments ; you must confess , that it is a necessarie sequele out of their rule of faith , that in all other congregations they may piously and safely believe all those tenets , and be still true children of the reformation . ismael . j confess if they speake coherently and stand to their principles , they may believe them safely ; but as j hate those blasphemous tenets , i abhorr and detest also that principle and rule of faith of other congregations , from which such tenets are vnavoidable sequeles . isaac . good ismael ; you forget what you have hitherto all along avowed , and you are quite astray from the doctrin of the reformation : you have often granted me , that our rule of faith is scripture , not as this or that congregation , doctor , or church , but as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it ; and now you tell me you hate and detest that rule , because that out of it , there follow strange and blasphemous tenets ? you say , the sense and interpretation of the primitive ages , church and fathers must be prefered before the interpretation of any privat person or congregation ; and what think you of our whole reformation , and particularly of our 39. articles of the church of england , which allow no other rule of faith but scripture as each person of sound judgment vnderstands it ? what say you of luther , calvin , beza , and the rest of our first reformers , who preferred their own privat sense and interpretation of scripture , before that of the whole church ? what say you to the presbyterians , who preferr their own sense and interpretation of the bible , before that of the church of england ? what say you of all the congregations of the reformed church , each one of which , holds its sense and doctrin of scripture , different from all the rest ? i grant , there ought to be a respect for the judgment and interpretation of the text , given by the primitive church and fathers ; but if a doctor , or man of sound judgment , replenisht with gods spirit , reades scripture with an humble heart , and pure intention , and judges by it , that bygamy is lawfull ; that there is no mystery of three persons in one divin nature ; that christ despaired on the cross , &c. tho these doctrins be quite against the judgment of fathers , church , and councils , he may believe them , and be still a true reformed child , because he follows our rule of faith ; and if he must deny these articles , because others decry them ; then he must go against his own judgement and conscience , for to conform himself to them , and his rule of faith must not be scripture as each man of sound judgment vnderstands it ; but as the primitive ages , church , and councils vnderstand it ; and this is popery . ismael . prethy friend jsaac , let 's give ouer : all that your discourse drives at , by what j can perceive , is either to beate me from the reformation by shewing me the absurdity of its rule of faith ; or oblige me to believe scandalous and blasphemous tenets as necessary sequeles out of that rule : i am à child of the reformation , and never will be otherwise . isaac . the lord , who is the searcher of hearts , knows , you misconster my intentions : how can you say i intēd to beate you from the reformation ; do not j insist and persuade you to stick fast to its rule of faith , and acknowledge no other but scripture , as you vnderstand it ? how can you say , j oblige you to believe fals and scandalous tenets ? to the contrary , j advise you not to believe them , if you judge by scripture they are fals and scandalous : what my discourse drives at is , that you should not censure , blame , or call any doctrin blasphemous , scandalous , fals , or heretical ( popery excepted ) for , tho you judge by scripture it is not true ; an other will judge it to be the true sense and doctrin of the text ; and if he does , he may with a safe conscience believe it , and ought not to be blamed by you or any other for believing it ; if you do not like that doctrin , do not believe it ; but let the other believe as he judges by scripture he may , and let every tub stand on its own bottom . ismael . once more i besech you give ouer ; j will not discourse any more with you . isaac . nay deare ismael , i see you are troubled , and i will not leaue you in that perplexitie : be pleased to listen to three points i will propose vnto you , and you 'l not miss to find satisfaction in either of them . ismael . let 's heare them . isaac . will you believe scripture , as it is interpreted , and in that sense which the church , councils , and fathers propound vnto you ? ismael . j will not be obliged to that ; for i may judge by scripture that sense and interpretation of it , to be fals and erroneous ; and i will not be obliged to believe any thing against my judgment and conscience ; that is popery . isaac . that 's well , in so much you follow the footsteps of luther , calvin , and our other fist reformers , who would not believe what the church believed in their tyme , nor regarded not , what the papists alleadged out of the councils and fathers against them ; because they held themselves obliged to believe scripture as they vnderstood it , and not as it was vndestood by others : will you then believe scripture in that sense and interpretation which yourself judges to be true , tho the church , councils , and all other congregations , judge it to be fals and erroneous ; and give the like libertie to all others ? ismael . that 's dangerous ; for it would follow , that any man might believe without check or blame , the greatest blasphemies imaginable , if he judges them to be the sense of the text. isaac . why then , since that the first does not please you , for feare of constraining your judgment papist-like ; and the second displeases you , for the scope it gives for to believe any thing , or nothing ; your best way will be to lay scripture asyde , wheras christ has forgot , or neglected to appoint vs som assured means for to know , what sense of it he would have vs believe . ismael . and what religion shall j profess , if j lay scripture asyde ? isaac . the same which now you have by scripture ; that 's to say , whatever you judge to be the true worship of god : be sure to profess a reverence for scripture , and seem to believe its the word of god ; least you may scandalize weake brethren ; pretend allwaies that your sentiments are grounded vpon the text ; but betwixt you and god , believe whatever you think to be true , worship god , as you-judge he is to be worshipt , and that 's the way to liue in peace : do you think but that those noble spirits , which they call the wits of england , have a good religion ? in publick they speake reverently of the bible , but we know what they have , and do declare in their privat discourses , that it s but a romance or meer fiction : do you think but that there was a religion in england before it saw gregori's emissaries , austin and his monks ? what need therefore of a bible for to have religion ? were not the swinfeldians a religious congregation and of the reformation to , yet they cared not for scripture , but grounded their belief vpon gods inspiration and inward speech to the heart ? ismael . if i were not well acquainted with you , and had not very convincing proofes , and signal testimonies of your pietie , solid religiosity , and christianity , i would judge you by this last peece of your discourse , to be an impious atheist or pagan : and j wonder that so good a christian , as i know you to be , should speake so irrevently of the bible , and so much in commendation of paganism as you do : there was indeed a religion in england before they knew what scripture was ; but that religion was paganism , which austin and his companions happily banisht from our land. isaac . happily ? do you call an exchange of paganism for popery ( introduced by austin ) a happiness ? is it not generally believed in our reformation , and most strongly proved of late , by that incomparable wit and pen-man doctor stillingfleet , that popery has as much of idolatry , as paganism : our land therefore had in paganism , as good a religion , as it received by austin in popery : does not this our noble champion , and most of the scribes of the church of england teach , that popery is a saving religion , that we may be saued in the church of rome ? if popery ( not withstanding it be idolatrie , as they say ) be a saving religion ; how can they deny but that paganism is also a saving religion ? what need had our forefathers therefore to abandon paganism ? why was it not left in the land ? ismael . whatever may be said of popery , it cannot be denied , but that christianity is better than paganism : the expulsion therefore of paganism by austin was a happiness , because by it christianity was introduced , and establisht in our kingdom . isaac . alas ismael , if england had bin as well informed of the merit of paganism , when first christianity was preached , it had never exchanged the one for the other . ismael . what , not paganism , which adored a multitude of gods , for christianity which adores but one ? not paganism , which adored iupiter , saturn , venus , &c. who were deuils and evil spirits , or wicked men , who caused themselves to be adored , for christianity , which adores the onely true , immortal and eternal deytie ? isaac . you speake with the vulgar sort ; and believe as you have bin instructed by your ancestors : i confess , the apostles , and ancient doctors of christianity do teach , that the gods of the gentils were deuils or euil spirits ; i confess also , all the christian world since the first preaching of the ghospell , was so perswaded , grounded vpon scripture , which in several places saies , the gods of the gentils were deuds , grounded vpon the doctrin of the apostles , and their successors the fathers of the church , and the world being perswaded by the apostles , by the doctors , fathers , and preachers of christianity , that the gods which the pagans adored were but deuils , which by sorceries , and marvelous works deceiued mankind , and made themselves to be adored as gods , all men were ashamed to adore but deuils , forsooke paganism , and embraced christianity . and all was but a meer policy of popery , to cast so much dirt and calumnie vpon paganism , and make its gods but deuils , for to introduce and establish christianity ; dr. stillingfleet in his charge of idolatry against the chu●ch of rome , pag. 40. and 41. saies plainly , that the pagans are charged with more than they were guilty of ; page 7. saies that iupiter adored by the pagans , was so farr from being an arch-devil , in the opinion of s. paul , that he was the tru god , blessed for ever more : that the pagans adored but one suprem and omnipotent god , which they called jupiter , and which they did believe to be neither a devil , nor a man , but a true , and the first and chiefest of the gods ; and that the rest of the gods , which they adored , they looked vpon them , as vpon inferior deyties , and gave them no other adoration , but such as the papists give to their saints . if therefore the pagans adored the tru god under the name of jupiter , and the other gods but as inferior deyties , as the papists do their saints ; was it not injustly don by the ancient fathers and teachers of christianity , to have imposed vpon the world , and made vs believe the pagans adored but devils and evil spirits ? have not the pagans ryght and justice on their syde , for to pleade before our wyse and religious parliament , that paganism may be restored , or at least tolerated , and iupiter , with the rest of the gods , may be adored , as formerly they were ; first because paganism is no more jdolatry than popery , as dr stillinfleet , mr burnet and other reformed writers prove convincingly ; secondly , because that paganism having bin banisht out of our land vpon the fals information of our first teachers , that it was an adoration of devils , or evil spirits , and wicked debaucht men , who by counterfeited wonders , and cheate , gained the peoples adoration ; since that dr stillingfleet , mr. burnet , and other reformed writers will make it out , that the pagans adored no devils , but one , tru omnipotent , suprem god , blessed evermore , which they called iupiter , and the rest of the gods as inferior deities , as papists do their saints ; and will prove that the pagans were charged by the first ddrs of christianity , and by all our ancestors , with more than they were guilty of ; why should not paganism be restored again to the land , and heard to speake for itsselfe , and dr stillingfleet and his zealous companions be lycenc't to pleade for them , and for holy iupiter , so fouly misrepresented by antiquity , as to be believed an arch-devil , whom dr. stillingfleet will prove to have bin , a tru god blessed for ever more . ismael . the more j discourse with you , the more j am perplexed in mind ; j bid you a dieu , and do confess j carry with me from your discourse , a dislike of what i have bin hitherto , an vnsettlement in my perswasion , and a compassion of the poore pagans , so vniustly banisht from our nation , if what dr stillingfleet saies , be true : he is a learned , religious , and diligent searcher into scripture ; the ancient ddrs and fathers of the church reading scripture , judged and taught , that iupiter was a devil , as well as the rest of the gods which the gentils ad●red ; dr stillingfleet and other reformed ddrs reading scripture judge he was no devil , but the tru god , blessed for ever more ; any child of the reformation may believe either of both , and put jupiter in our litanies , as well as jesus christ , and offer sacrifice to him as formerly our ancestors did ; for whatever any man of sound judment judges to be the doctrin of scripture , may be safely believed , and is the d●ctrin of the reformation : as for my part , i see our wyse parliament sits now vpon a new settlement of gouvernment and religion , and i will not resolve vpon any religion , vntill i see what it concludes . if dr stillinfleet be so zealous , as to put in a good word for paganism before the religious assembly , he may find abettors , and as the parliament cherishes dr oates for the extirpation of popery , so it may cherish dr stillingfleet for the introduction of paganism , and the erecting of temples and altars for holy iupiter , his tru and evermore blessed god ; and if he be successfull in this vndertaking , as for exchanging presbytery for protestancy , he was promoted to the deanry of s. pole , so by changing christianity for paganism , he may expect to be his holy iupiter's heigh priest , in london capitol , and reign with him everlastingly in the other life , in case he believes there is an other . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a42139-e420 a epist . ad noremb . & in comment . in 10.6 . & 16. matt. b theol. calvin . l. 2. fol. 70. c in parva confes cerm . fol. 55. & in colloq . fol. 110. d to. ● . fol. 202. e the kingdom of isr . pag 9. f acts & mon. pag 36. lib. 3. c. 5. g catal. tes●ium pag. 976. & 978. notes for div a42139-e1630 a l. 4 ▪ instit . c. 9 b to. 1. edit . ien. in resolut . c lib. de serv . ar bit . cont . erasm . edit . 1. d in colloq . mensal . fol. 118. e to. 2. wittem . fol. 374. & 375. f in defens . art. reliq . protest . pag. 199. g in his true differ . par 2. pag 353. h bouclier de la foy ▪ notes for div a42139-e2670 matt. 12. tim. 2. io. 3. a in lib. ad corin. c. 11. b in explan . art. 17. c to. 2. de minist . eccles . inst●t fol. 369 & lib. de capt. babyl . c. de ordin . & lib. de abroganda missa . d in harm . in math. c. 26 vers . 64. & i● admonad polan . in tract . theolog. pag. 794. e comm●nt . s● . per ioanc . 10. f in act. serueti pag. 87. g l. cont . ●enebrar . h in postil . major . in e●arrat . evang. domin . trinit . i lib. 2. dial. 2. k harm . in evang. mat c. 26 vers 39. &c. 27 vers . 46. & lib. 2. instit . c. 16 sect . 10. & 1● . l in luc. par . 2. hom . 65. & in ioan. hom . 54. m in math c. 26. n in recogn . pag 376. o lib. 2. inst . c. 16. fact . 10. & seq . p to. 3. w●ttemb . in sp . 16. q in ps . 16. r in conses . majori de coena dn̄i . ſ to. 2. in respōs . ad confess . luth. fol. 458. t in histor sacram . par . ● . fol. 57. notes for div a42139-e4010 a dom 1. adventus , & libr de proph. christi . b in postill . super evangel . domi. 1. advent . & dom. 26. post trinit . c moriu●● to good works in the ep●st . dedic ▪ d lib. 3 ▪ inst c. 4. sect . 28. e lib. 4. inst . c. 7. sect . 2. f in loeis common classe 5 c. 27. g to. 2. wittem . de capt . babyl . fol. 74. h de eccl. cont . bellarm . cōf . 2. quaest 5 i epist . 2 ▪ 2. & 25. k to. 5. wittem : serm . de matrim . & in 1. ad corint . 7. l consil . theol. par . 1 pag 648. & 134. m in epist paul. ad phil. & in 1. ad tim. 3. n lib. 2● dial. 21. o lib. de repud . & divort. pag. 123. p canon . ●enerales geuuen . 1560. q chap. 13. art . 31 : r to. 5. wittem . serm . de matrim . ſ to. 5. wittemb . serm . de matrim . t in scriptis anglic de reg chr. l. 2. c. 26. & in math c. 19 u in consil . theol. par . 1 pag. 648● & 134. x dial. 200. & 204 in epist . s. paul. ad tim 3. y l. 4. inst . c. 19. sect . 37. discip . eccl c. 13. z serm de matrim . a lib. 4 inst . c. 15. sect . 20. & 21. b act. 27. c can. 29. d lib. 2. eccles . polit. pag 103. e in tim. c. 50. f in defens . hoo keri art . 8 notes for div a42139-e5240 a in praefat . dialog . b serm . de 50. artic. in summa summarum . c in harm super ●uc . c. 2. d epito● . cent. 16. par . 2. e tom. 2. cont . catabapt . fol. 10. f victoria verit . a●g . 5. g in cap. 2. ad gal. h de eccles cont . bella●m . cont. 2. q. 4. i to. 5. wittem . ●n 1554. & in epist . ad gal. c. 1. k in apol . cōf. c. de concil . l in cap. 2. ad gal. & serm . angl : pag 204. m in epist . ad gal c. 1. & 2. & tom. 5. w●ttemb . an . 1554. soi . 29. n lib. 5. de eccl. polit. sect . 72. o pag. 495. & ●73 . p acts. and mon ▪ pag. 514 q lib. 2 ▪ inst . c 17● sect . 6. r in cōment . in cap. 2. ad gal. ſ to. 1. proposit . 3. t lib. 2. instit . c. 7. sect . 5. u harm . evang. in luc. c. 10. vers . 26. x in synop . papismi pag 564. y lib. de servo . arbit cont . erasm . z lib. 3● . instit . c. 21. sect . 5. & 7 ! &c. 22. sect . 11. & cap. 23. sect . 1. a lib. 2. inst . c. 4 sec . 3 & l. 1. c. 18 sect . z & l. 3 c. z3 sec . 4. lo. 1 de deprovid . c. 6. in synops . pag. 563. in manifest . stratag . papist . notes for div a42139-e6980 l. 4. inst . c. 7. sect . 27. a in defens . &c. pag. 373.70 . and 395. b in respons t●edecem propos . c in epist . ad card. belay episo . pariens . d in tract , euchar. ad p. sermondum e in ●not . supe● nouum testam . cap 10. matth. & soepe alibi . f to. 1. edit . ie●ae . l , de capt. babyl . westph . defens 2. orthod . ●it . g admonit . 2. ad h lib. de coena domini . i lib. de capt . babyl . c. de euchar. k epist ad bohemos in declarat . euch. & in serm● de euch. l in concil . theol. ad mareh . elect. de vsu vtriusque speciei pag. 141. notes for div a42139-e8290 a in disput . theol . pag. 301. b in conciliat loc . scrip. loco . 191. c in locis cōmun . to. 1. de potest . eccl. d in apol. confes . aug. art 13. & l.b. 1. epist . pag. 234. e in cap. 5. epist . lac . v. 4. f lib. 4. i●st . c. 14. sect . 5. g in modest . exami● . h in eccl ▪ polit. l. 5. sect . 66. i in locis cōmun . tit . de numero . sacram ! k in perpet . r●gim . pag. 109. l in eccl. pol●t lib. 5. sect 77. m lib. 4. inst . c. 29. n epit. colloq . mōtisbel . o in centur . exercit . theol. pag. 270. p exam. par . 4. q in respons . ad acta colloq montisbelgar . par . 2. in praefat. r in locis cōmun c. 18. & 19. ſ ●n script . angl. pag. 450. t to. 1. in explan . art. 90. & art. 60. u in apolog . confes . aug. x to. 1● wittem . in resol . de indul. concl . 15. y epist ad spalat . z acts. and mon. pag. 46● . & 1312. a to. 2. germ ▪ fol. 214. b de formula ●issa & to. 3. germ. c in hiftor . sacram . par . 2. fol. 13. d in replica cōt . hardingum . god's call to england, for thankfulness after gracious deliverances wherein is shewed, that our deliverances, not answered with reformation, will be followed with sorest destruction / by thomas gouge. gouge, thomas, 1605-1681. 1680 approx. 220 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 102 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-03 (eebo-tcp 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a41644) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 60454) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 917:14) god's call to england, for thankfulness after gracious deliverances wherein is shewed, that our deliverances, not answered with reformation, will be followed with sorest destruction / by thomas gouge. gouge, thomas, 1605-1681. [24], 159, [9] p. printed for john hancock ..., london : 1680. reproduction of original in cambridge university library. errata: p. 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answered with reformation , will be followed with sorest destruction . by thomas gouge . josh. 20. if ye forsake the lord — he will turn and do you hurt , after the good he hath done you . gratiarum ●essat discursus , ubi recursus non fuerit . nec modo nil augetur ingrato , sed & quod ascipit vertitur ei in perniciem . bern. serm. 1. cap. jejunii . london : printed for iohn hancock , at the three bibles in corn-hill , entering into popes-head-alley . 1680. a preface , pressing to the great duty of thankfulness for mercies . the eminent appearances of a divine hand delivering this sinful nation in its plunges of woful distresses , have been such remarkable testimonies of infinite goodness and patience , as are s●●rce to be parall●●● in any age of the world , in any nation under heaven . so numerous are the expressions of mercy to a people daring heaven with their impieties , that whoever shall review the catalogue of them , will be amazed to see one more superadded to the former so abused and slighted , as wickedly they have been by many of us . yet prerogative mercy , which acts beyond expectation and desert , conquering all difficulties and discouragements , hath not stept aside to give way to justice , but hath continued its progress towards us : had it not been for this , we had certainly seen more direful effects of our enemies projects , than yet we have beheld . had it not been for this , we had been as deeply involv'd in misery , as we are in sin. hence in our great extremity , after all his forgotten favours , he hath spoken in his love , as in ierem. 16.21 . i will this once ca●●● them to know , i will cause them to know 〈◊〉 hand and my might , and they shall know my name is the lord. this once will i cause them to know my mercy , to understand my unwillingness to destroy them : and hence it is , that england has not been forsaken of the lord , although it is full of sin against the holy one of israel , ier. 51.5 . now what hath encouraged , what hath induced the lord to express thus much favour to such , as so provoke the eyes of his glory ? it is only because he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy , rom. 9. be it known , o people of england , 't is not for your righteousness that the lord hath done this , for ye are a stiff-necked people , deut. 9.6 . our works and ways deserve nothing but utter ruine , and perpetual desolation . for his names sake has be done all this , and that he might make his mighty power to be known , psal. 106.8 . his super-transcendent goodness hath wrought out these sweet deliverances for us . and for this end hath he done it , that we might remember our evil ways , and our doings that were not good , and might loath our selves in our own sight , for our iniquities and abominations , ezech. 36.31 . and now shall we be a happy people , if mercies shall so prevail upon us , as to effect this blessed frame and disposition in us . for this end hath the almighty tryed us with another deliverance , because he hath said , it may be they will present every one their supplications , and return from their evil ways , ier. 36.7 . oh , what expectations hath god to see a repenting , reforming , holy , obedient carriage , upon our receipts of such wonderful favours from him ! he looks that we will appear another manner of people than we have been , after these eminent , frequent , seasonable , and miraculous appearances for us . oh therefore , since the lord hath not forsaken us a sinful people , but stood by us , and redeemed us , when appointed to death , let us joyn our selves to the lord in a perpetual covenant that shall never be forgotten , ierem. 50.5 . let us offer up our selves to the lord as a whole-burnt-offering , in the ascending flames of purest affections . let us not occasion the cessation of heavenly kindnesses , by a wicked regardlesness of them . let it be our employment , to applaud and improve the infinite love of god in all his mercies . come , let us view the sudden and sweet dispensations of god's heavenly and holy providence , and fix our thoughts on his surprizing benefits , till our hearts are enamour'd with the authour of them , and transform'd into the likeness of that loving god that gives them : let us trace him in his ways of mercy , till we are sweetly brought into the ways of duty : let our souls be drawn up to the center of heaven , by the golden chains of mercies let down from thence unto us . let us continue a leisurely meditation on our gracious deliverances , till our affections are sublimated , our hearts inflamed , and a thankful frame produced . let us behold our most precious lives preserved , our inestimable liberties secured , the conspicuous and glorious light of the gospel continued , the life of his sacred majesty defended : i say , let us contemplate these things , till our health shall sound melodious praises to that almighty power that hath done all this . now , courteous reader , what doth the lord require for all this kindness , but a truely thankful heart and life ? and what less canst thou give to god than this ? thou canst present the almighty with no such pleasing offering , as a grateful heart : for god hath sufficiently exprest his esteem of such presents , by appointing the altar of incense , which was for thank-offerings , to be encompassed with a crown of purest gold : for though the most odoriferous incense is nothing in his account , the thank-ful heart that presents it as a testimonial of unfeigned gratitude , is highly esteemed by him . neither is there any thing more consonant to the dictates of reason , than that we express all manner of kindness to those that oblige us by their large munificence : for , quisquis magna dedit , voluit sibi magna rependi . the donors of great favours , expect answerable requitals . and however we may forget what we give , we must not forget what we receive : and therefore i may say as bernard , cùm amat deus , nil aliud vult quam amari ; when the lord expresseth love , he designes to be loved . and verily , a grateful reflexion of honour to god is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , our highest and lowest divinity , the highest pitch of attainments , is but love ; the lowest return can be nothing beneath it , if any thing at all . the only 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or requitals we can render to god for his richest favours , are only testimonials of thankfulness , by extolling his holy name with unfeigned praises , and reflecting honour on his blessed majesty by chearful obedience to his sacred commandments . now therefore as the piercing rays of the glorious sun , though passing through the transfluent air with an imperceptible motion , yet meeting with a solid body rebound with an increasing lustre ; so should our hearts and lives reflect the honour of all our mercies on our heavenly benefactor . and unless the bounty of heaven gains so far upon our obstinate hearts , as to effect this work , we shall gain little by the greatest mercies : the sense of which caused a holy man to pray , domine , da gratitudinem cum misericordiâ ; nolo misericordiam sine gratitudine . oh lord , give me a thankful heart with thy mercies ; lord , i desire not mercies without a grateful heart to improve them . and we shall finde it true , that mercy unregarded , deliverance not improved , will render our condition more desperate and dangerous , and our end more miserable . but , oh! how much is it to be lamented , that a vertue so applauded for surpassing excellency , a duty enjoyned with such indispensable necessity , is so much unseen in all , and unpractised by most ! how are the mites of mens bounty more regarded than the mountains of gods mercy ! of the ten lepers that our saviour healed , but one returned to glorifie god , luke 17.17 , 18. how few of a whole nation delivered from the barbarous hands of bloody-minded men , from the complicated contrivances of romish agents , have returned deserved praises to our blest redeemer ? how are both private and publick mercies buried in the grave of unthankfulness ? which is the reason of that unprofitableness which lays us under the greatest curse . yet an ungrateful temper is extremely odious in the thoughts of all men . it receives a black doom even from such as may justly be condemned for it . ingratitude is that sin which lycurgus a heathen-lawgiver accounted so prodigious , in humane , and abominable , that he thought it was so impossible for reasonable men to be guilty of it , that it would be superfluous to enact a law to condemn it : and 't is reported of the egyptians , that those among them that wanted humanity to return kindness to benefactors , underwent no lesser penalty than to be disabled from having a posterity to survive them , that the world might not be pester'd with an ungrateful progeny . but if the contempt of humane kindnesses gives such offence to mortal men , and receives such punishments ; what punishment doth it merit , what hatred doth it deserve , when the guilt is infinitely raised , by the consideration of that infinite glory that is affronted by it ! the just threats of the eternal god against such offenders , express its provoking nature , deut. 8.19 . if ye at all forget the lord , — i testifie against you , ye shall surely perish . if such severity be to those that at all forget , what will be the portion of such as altogether forget the mercies of god ? but oh ! which of us hath not suffered divine favours to slip out of our minds ? what less in our thoughts than how much god hath done for us ? will not vengeance fall upon us with a witness , if we proceed in such ungrateful courses ? now therefore , to use the words of jude , i will put you in remembrance , how that the lord having saved the people out of the land of egypt , afterwards destroyed them that believed not , iude 5. such will be the portion of all those , we may fear , who will neither love nor obey the lord , after all the great things he hath done for us : but accounting them small things , deny those respects they ought to shew to him that did them , who is wise in counsel , and excellent in working . but shall we be worse than the ox or ass , that know their masters , and serve them ? shall we be more ungrateful to god than we are to men ? the people of israel told gideon , iudg. 8.22 . thou shalt rule over us , seeing thou hast delivered us from the hands of the midianites . shall we not say to god , o lord , since in thy infinite mercy thou hast delivered us from the hands of our enemies , we will now submit unto thee , and thou shalt rule over us ? oh how pleasing would this be to god ? how happy should we be under such acknowledgments of god's deliverances ? but to persist in sin is very unreasonable : mic. 6.3 . oh my people , testifie against me : what have i done to thee ? — vers . 4. i brought thee up out of the land of egypt , and redeemed thee out of the house of servants , &c. oh , my people , says god , remember what great deliverances i have wrought , what miracles my arm hath performed for you ; and will ye sin after all this ? oh england ! remember what god hath done , what deliverance from a heathenish condition , what an escape from popish darkness , what redemptions from romish conspiracies , god hath bestowed ; and then let conscience speak , whether you do well or no to sin against such a god as this . this will never be tolerated long by a holy god. this will make him say , as ezek. 21.3 . behold , i am against thee , and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath , and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked . the sword of iustice sheathed by divine patience , will be drawn out to avenge the abuse of mercies . will not contempt of goodness bring the fulfilling of that threat upon us , ezek. 44.25 . i will not watch over you for good , but for harm ? providence hath hitherto been watchful over us to secure us from ruine ; but miserable shall we be , when god shall watch opportunities to ruine and destroy us . now i must tell you , whatever our apprehensions of things may be , there is nothing will prevent our destruction after deliverance , but a serious repentance , and hearty reformation . 't is not our policy or power , 't is not our courage or undauntedness can possibly secure us ; but except we repent , we shall surely perish . our profession and priviledges are insufficient to give us safety . jerusalem , the holy city , is now a ruina●ted heap : a place of strength , so that the kings of the earth and all the inhabitants of the world would not have believed that the enemy and adversary should enter its gates , lam. 4.12 . and yet it is made a perpetual desolation by the fire of god's wrath kindled against it . neither may the greatest in our land , if living in sin , think to escape by or in wickedness . the hand of god will finde out his enemy , though never so potent , though guarded with all humane securities . and certainly , if god shall at last for our sins suffer our enemies to prevail , prince and peasant shall suffer alike ; royal , as base blood , will be a drink-offering . and if in policy they spare a while , yet in cruelty they will slay at last . the dainty dish is reserv'd for last . the best blood and the best wine are brought forth at last ; the courser blood runs out before that pure blood that flows from the heart is drawn forth . let none therefore flatter themselves in sin , because exalted to eminent degrees of honour in a sinful land. but if in sincerity we turn from our sins , the lord shall be our security , and appoint salvation for walls and bulwarks . this shall be a sign , we shall still escape when we shall be mourning for , and leaving off those sins , that have brought us into danger . ezra 7.16 . those that have escaped shall escape , for they shall be on the mountains as doves in the valleys , mourning every one for their own iniquity . were there such an universal mourning for our particular sins , we should soon ●ee providence scattering the ●hreatning clouds that hang over ●ur heads , and raising a founda●ion for our further hopes of ●scape . oh then that charity to ● ruining state , that compassion ●o the languishing church of our lord iesus christ , that our gra●itude to a gracious god for his mercies , or that our dread of a ●onfounding majesty , and haste●ing misery , may make us break off ●n ! god calls , as ier. 14.17 . i ●ave seen thy abominations ; wo ●nto thee , oh ierusalem , wilt thou ●ot be made clean ? when shall it ●nce be ? oh when shall we leave ●ur sins , after so many years of patience tiring , iustice-daring provocations ? when shall it once ●e , after so many lesser judgments ●ounding warnings to us to prevent ●ur ruine ? oh when shall it be , ●fter all the miraculous engaging deliverances god hath given ? oh let this be the time . now to this end i have presented thee with those considerations , that may be inducements to all , to learn to live more holily , after such rich enjoyments of mercies ; and prevent the abusing of them to sin . for as hermes after wine was wont to take a grain of mastick , to prevent its coagulation into destructive tartar ; so should we wisely fortifie our selves by weighty considerations , so to prevent those sins we are naturally pron● to commit after the receipt o● mercies . and especially , because when satan by his instruments hat● attempted our destruction , and ou● gracious god hath prevented their designs by delivering , not sufferin● the gates of hell to prevail agains● us ; our vigilant adversary , seein● he cannot destroy us , will exercis● all his wylès to deprive us of th● benefit of deliverances given t● us , by endeavouring to divert our minde from considering them , and ●ent●cing us to a wrong improvement of them . let us also believe our future condition is like to be according to our carriage under gods present gracious dispensations . and i may say of mercy , as the heathens of fortune , nec cultores praeterit , nec haeret contemptoribus . it slights not its worshippers , neither will it stay with its contemners . so those that are grateful for mercies shall never want them , those that are abusers shall not long enjoy them . continuance in son will be so great discouragement to god in ways of mercies , that we shall have just cause to despair of future relief from him . 't is reported of alphonsus king of spain , that a noble beggered by his wickedness , seeking relief , was denied , with this answer , if thou hadst ●pent thy estate in my service , there were reason to provide fo● thee ; but since you have foolishly wasted it , thou shalt live i● thy wants without my relief . s● although god will deliver thos● whose dangers arise from serving of him , yet he may justly deny deliverance to those that involv● themselves in miseries by sinning against him . now , reader , if thou wonderes● so important a subject as this , i● undertaken by so weak a hand a● mine ; know , that gratitude raise● the price of the meanest present● and this is certain , god doth no● choose means because effectual , bu● means are effectual , because god chooses them . young samuel was chosen to carry a message to ol● eli , who did not contemn him fo● his youth , but received the messag● the lord sent by him . and 〈◊〉 though i am the meanest of saints my weak endeavours may be prosperous with the blessing of an almighty god. there is such a pruritus scribendi in this diseased age , that would force me to make some plea for exposing this small treatise to publick view . but apologies commence so low , that they are rather believed to be flatteries than truths ; and ( as one saith ) should the highest protestations of my humble intentions be entered , i know men will take the liberty to believe or question at pleasure . therefore all i shall say is onely this ; the subject and treatise is peaceable , not mingling with the intemperate and preternatural heats of the christian , or rather unchristian gladiatours of these days . the treatise is also practical , designed to reduce the lives of persons to better order ; and not stuffed with nice speculations , to gratifie mens itching ears and wild fancies . i believe also you will say 't is plain , if not too uncouth . but i shall not affect the vain pedantry of plausible ostentation ; for i reckon the simplicity of sober well-meaning hearts , need no such curious embellishments : and i shall be willing to be judged by any , whether it be not seasonable ; and so i shall depend upon the lord to accompany it with his blessing to the souls of those who shall vouchsafe to peruse it ; whose prayers i shall desire , that i may spend my days to the glory of god , and in promoting the publick welfare ; and so remain , chelmsford , octob. 8. 79. an unfeigned well-wisher to the publick good , thomas govge . god's controversie with england , for contemning deliverances . ezra 9. 13 , 14. — seeing that thou our god hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve , and hast given us such a deliverance as this : should we again break thy commandments ? — wouldst not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us , so that there should be no remnant nor escaping ? since one effectual means to promote the deserved honour and transcending glory of the soveraign governour of humane affairs , is by a suitable improvement of his various providences to us ; an industrious inquiry into the blessed designs of his providential dispensations , in order thereto , will be accounted no unnecessary work to such as intend that religious improvement of them . of these providential occurrences , which may not be pretermitted without some serious meditations on them , some are of that sort which we call common , from the frequent enjoyment of them , ( of which kind is our daily preservation , provision , gubernation ) although they are special , considering our unspeakable misery without them ; and these ( i say ) cannot be slighted and dis-regarded , without an unworthy disparagement of infinite mercy , and contempt of soveraign majesty . but besides these ordinary works of providence , there are oftentimes extra-ordinary works presented to our view , attended with special displays , and bearing some eminent impressions of mercy or justice ; which are not to be over-look'd in a cursory way , or dispatch with a single glance , but require a deliberate meditation , a fixed inspection , and a singular improvement . such unusual dispensations from the almighties hand , have frequently been known , both in ways of mercy and justice in our sinful nation , which hath been a theatre for the mixed displays of these glorious attributes for many years ; and especially of late , our long-suffering god hath stampt most illustrious impressions of mercy on many of his eminent providences to us ; of which our miraculous deliverance in part vouchsafed to us , is an apparent testimony ; and requires the most faithful improvement , that finite creatures can make of the doings of an infinite god. the deliverance i mean was that , when the supream overseer of created beings in all their operations , cast an unmerited eye of pity on our sinful nation , languishing with undiscerned distempers : when the boundless goodness of the eternal god , made a timely stop to our hastning ruine : when the heavenly witness that is conscious to the secret actions of unmindful mortals , detected the vaulted contrivances of the undermining moles of our common-wealth ; when the almighty god , who places bounds to the roaring waves , and says to the raging sea , hitherto and no farther , took off the chariot-wheels of our furious enemies : when he unto whom belongs the issues from death , as by a glorious resurrection , rescued us from the jaws of destruction , who bore the image of death upon us : when the faithful god discovered the unfaithful dealings of perfidious plotters ; and by a glorious ray of infinite goodness shining on our clouded land , hath made us a land of goshen , who were near to be made a miserable golgotha . this is the deliverance never to be forgotten , the wonderful work with such impressions of mercy , which is to be beheld with most fixed intention . now can we cast our eye on this magnificent master-piece of mercy , but our eye must needs affect our hearts , and ingenerate such motions as were in the heart of thankful david , psal. 116.12 . what shall i render to the lord for all his mercy ? can we pass by this heavenly favour , without a pious inquiry into the gracious designs of our blessed god in bestowing of it ? hath this unexpected deliverance continued the choicest of blessings to us , and shall we dis-appoint the expectations of god , who is looking for signal requitals of it ? surely such a glorious work as this , wherein hath appeared the immediate hand of almighty god , the most wonderful goodness of his sweetest nature , the highest testimonies of his enduring patience , can never be over-looked by us ; unless we design to affront his mercy , disdain his kindness , and dare his justice . but oh miserable nation ! oh ungrateful people ! where are the tokens of thankful respects for unmerited favours ? what notice is there taken that such a work hath been done amongst us ? who lays to heart the operations of his hands ? where are the lips that praise him , the lives that honour him for it ? the idolatrous philistines could assemble and sacrifice to their dagon , for delivering sampson their enemy into their hands , iudg. 16.23 , 24. but when have we assembled to offer the sacrifice of praise to our god , for delivering us from the hands of our enemies ? oh regardless people ! if talking of deliverance be recompense enough , we have paid it ; if cursing our foes be sufficient reward , we have given it : but if repentance of disobedience be the onely return , we have yet omitted it : if reformation can onely be regarded as a suitable requital , we are without it . what have we seen but unchanged conversations in our changed condition ? what have we given to the lord , but a doubled measure of impieties , for his doubled mercies ? what have we done , but endeavoured to revenge our selves on the mercy of god that hath spared us ? oh undeserving generation that we are ! how do we enjoy mercies , and never improve them ? how do we comfortably reap the profit of deliverance , and unfaithfully rob the lord of the glory of it ? how do we bless our selves in escapes , and forget the almighty that gives them to us ? we are sollicitous wanters , but careless enjoyers . how are we joyful when getting out of danger ; but how little careful then are we to be getting out of sin ? methinks the moon that is often changing and still keeps its old spots , is a plain emblem of our wicked nation : when all things are ruining , sin remains unruined ; when enjoying escapes from ruine , still sin remains to be again a cause of ruine . oh what unchangeable ethiopians are we in our sins ? how like are we to the hardned mariners , who escaping the fatal dangers of a threatning storm , remain secure till another tempest hangs over their heads ? what succession of mercies do we promise our selves , in the vilest continuance in destroying iniquities ! but is there no hope● that the consideration of delivering mercies may over-power us from going on in our wicked courses ? were they prest upon our consciences , would they not prevail to effect some reformation ? it may be a word that will suit to the works of the lord amongst us , may make some impression , effect some conviction , and produce some amendment . behold then a word enough to melt our hearts with the reading of it ; to dissolve us into tears by meditating on it ; to make us reform by applying of it . — seeing thou hast given us such a deliverance as this , should we again break thy commandment ? — wouldst thou not be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us ? &c. in these words are contain'd , 1. a thankful acknowledgment of the undeserved mercy their gracious god had exercised towards them ; consisting in these two things . 1. he had punished them less than their sins deserved . they admire the clemency of almighty god , that when their iniquities were wonderfully great , their punishments should be mitigated with so much mercy . the hebrew verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 here used , signifies ( 1. ) cohibere se , to with-hold ones self . and so the sence is elegant , thou hast with-held thy self from doing what our iniquities deserved from thee . thou wouldst not suffer thy direful anger to break out against us to the utmost , but didst refrain thy self from making an irreparable ruine amongst us . hadst thou proportioned thy destroying judgment , to our daring provocations , and thy wrathful dealings to our vast deserts , we had not been a people at this very day : but thy mercy detain'd the hands of thy justice ; and thou didst not so much design to consume us , but onely to correct us . the like acknowledgment have we cause to make , having had experiences of the same clemency : for when our provoked god hath come out against us with wasting wars , destroying plagues , devouring flames ; yet he restrained his wrath , and suspended the greatest part of the judgments we deserved from him ; and although when he began , there was cause enough to make a full end of us all , yet in the midst of justice he remembred mercy , and graciously desisted from ruining of us . 2. the word signifies cohibere aliquid , to restrain any thing else . so the sence is , thou hast restrained , kept down our sins from rising up in judgment against us ; for had they appeared against us , we had utterly been ruin'd . 2. this mercy was exprest to them , by the working out for them so great a deliverance ; since thou hast given us such a deliverance ; implying how merciful , how seasonable , how undeserved a deliverance that was they received ; and such is ours , that the almighty god hath vouchsafed to us . 2. you have here the deep sense of duty that was upon his heart ; which duty was to break off sin , which onely can be a just return to god for his goodness . 3. you have his sense of danger , if sin was persisted in after such a deliverance ; wouldst thou not consume us ? &c. 4. you have the aggravation of that destruction under such hainous sinning , till there were no remnant nor escaping . the general heads i shall insist upon , which are immediately contained in , or may serve to explain this text , are these . 1. that the great design of god in bestowing merciful deliverances on a people is to reclaim them from sin . 2. that such is that wickedness that is in the most of men , that they are prone to wax worse after deliverances . 3. that sinning after deliverance , is the most hainous sinning . 4. that sinning after deliverance , hath a peculiar influence to hasten destruction . 5. that destruction for sins after deliverance , will be the most dreadful destruction . now i shall endeavour , deo juvante , to speak something to each of these in order . proposition i. the design of god in delivering a people from eminent dangers of ruine , is to oblige them to forsake all sinful and wicked practices . the intent of delivering mercies , is to cause us to repent of our destroying iniquities . the main end of gods exercising goodness towards us , is onely to effect some goodness in us . the design of special mercies , is to make us a special people . the almighty god delights not to reduce a people from sinful courses , by laying them under such heavy judgments as may render them incapable of committing those sins , which otherwise their wills incline them to ; but the way of his pleasure is to confer such mercies upon them , as may sweetly conquer their stubborn hearts , and gain their averse minds to himself . hence when the sin and folly of an obstinate people hath reduc'd them to inextricable straits , the eternal god doth not suffer his destroying wrath to break forth against them , saying , i see them helpless and past recovery , now therefore will i ease me of my adversaries , and avenge me of my enemies ; but compassion being kindled in his merciful breast , now says the lord i will lend a helping hand , and give them that experience , and those evidences of my goodness , that shall for ever oblige them to me , and win them from proceeding in ways of rebellion against me . thus all our deliverances lay us under perpetual obligations to devote our selves to the blessed work and service of our delivering god. our mercies are not beautiful tombes in our way , wherewith we may delight our eyes ; but chariots to carry us on with more pleasure and cheerfulness in the ways of our gracious god. the end of deliverances is plainly seen , luke 1.74 , 75. that we being delivered from the hands of our enemies , may serve him without fear , in righteousness and holiness all the days of our lives . we are not delivered from enemies , to continue enemies to god ; but an escape is given us from the hands of enemies , that we may resign up our selves into the hands of our god. when god prevents our becoming miserable preys to unmerciful foes , 't is to oblige us ever to praise him with thankful hearts and obedient lives , psal. 105.37 . he brought forth that people with silver and gold ; spread a cloud for a covering , and fire to give light in the night , v. 39. he brought quails , and satisfyed them with bread from heaven ; he brought forth his people with joy , and his chosen with gladness , v. 43. and what was the design of all this favour ? v. 45. that they might observe his statutes , and keep his laws . although our mercies are gods gifts , yet they greatly raise our debts . the favours we receive from our gracious god , are not as payments given to servants to discharge from work , but like the encouragements tender parents give to children , to increase their dutiful service and obedience . 't is promised . h●s . 3. u● . they shall fear the lord and his goodness ; or , ob tantam d●i beneficentiam , grot. they shall serve and obey him for his goodnesses , in returning and restoring of them : that wonderful kindness was for this end , to ingenerate obedient love , and induce to constant loyalty to so blest a redeemer . now had not these blessed intentions and gracious designs been in the heart of our god , he had never exercised his almighty power for our help and relief , as of late he hath done : but he designing to reclaim us from sin , hath restrained his wrath , and revealed our danger ; that so by giving us the advantage of such a mercy , we might render to him the glory of it . and what can be more reasonable , than to give god the glory of that , whereof we have the profit ? what more unjust , than to cross such gracious designs as these ? and therefore unless we design to debar our selves from future mercies , it concerns us greatly to answer gods design in these ; unless we intend by our incorrigibleness to bring irreparable ruines upon our selves , it highly concerns us by this goodness of god , to be led to that repentance and reformation intended by it . for to what end hath this grace of god appear'd , but to teach us to deny all ungodliness and worldly lusts , and that we might live soberly , righteously , and godly in this present world ? i shall now propose some few reasons , why the glorious god condescends to strive with man with thus much goodness , rather than reduce him by forcible coactions , and destroying judgments ; why he doth not ease him of his enemies by his almighty power , but endeavour to make them friends by obliging favours . reason i. because this way and method is most suitable to his gracious nature . rough spirited men in reducing offenders , will use nothing but harsh severity : but such whose nature is tempered with amiable meekness , abhor such wrathful means ; and will make experiment what clemency and kindness will do , before they proceed to powerful compulsions . thus the great god having declared himself to be most gracious , will experience how far he can prevail by the exercise of goodness , before he proceeds to the displays of his justice and greatness . so good is our god , that he is ready to make proof of the efficacy of a thousand smiles of mercy , rather than of a single stroak of justice . the titles of honour which discover his nature , do mostly set out his abounding goodness , exod. 34.5 , 6. the lord , the lord god , merciful and gracious , long suffering , and abundant in truth and goodness . the whole world is embroidered with infinite impressions of goodness . among his blessed attributes , his grace is uppermost ; and though he be equally just as good , yet he exercises his goodness more than his justice . this is the fairest flower in the garland of majesty ; the brightest ray that issues from that un-approachable light ; the height of his immensurable and imperial glory . now if we consider his readiness to mercy , and his slowness to anger ; his frequency in displays of goodness , and the rarity of amazing judgments ; his resolvedness in ways of grace , and reservedness in ways of justice ; we may easily see 't is most agreeable to his nature , to accomplish his designs by clemency . reason 2. because this merciful method is most agreeable to the nature of man. the most powerful engine to attract the will of man , is the good will and mercy of god. man being of a generous spirit , is more easily drawn than driven , perswaded than forced . murdering severity may force a slavish fear , but never produce any loving obedience . dipping in the sweetest oyl of mercy , is most effectual to soften the hardned hearts of men . parisiensis relates a history of a stubborn sinner , that nothing would reclaim ; but god heaping up favours upon him , at last he cries out , vicisti benignissime deus indefatigabili bonitate : oh kindest god , thou hast conquered me with thy unwearied goodness . were a man to relieve an inveterate enemy in a perishing condition , it could not but effect a change , and make him become an intimate and constant friend . sullen , peremptory , and imperious commands , have little influence to sway obdurate enemies . the kindness of conscientious david in sparing saul his mortal enemy , melted his stony heart , and made him promise eternal friendship , 1 sam. 26.21 . i have sinned , says saul , i will do thee no more harm , seeing my life was precious in thy sight . and will not the most refractory sinner be ready to come to terms of peace , at the receiving such kindness from the hand of god ? will he not say , ah lord , i have been an ungodly enemy , and impudent rebel against thee ; thou hadst me in thy hand , and mightest have suffer'd my bloody enemies to have cut me off ; thou mightest have dispatcht me to eternal torments : but since thou hast been so gracious to spare and deliver me thy enemy , henceforth i shall ever be thy friend , and never offer to rebel any more . reason 3. god proceeds in these gracious methods , because of the experienc'd ineffectualness of destroying judgments to effect a sincere repentance , and produce an unfeigned obedience . mercy hath ever prevailed more with sinners than wrath . severity in exercising judgments , may curb a head-strong sinner from outward enormities ; but the bent of his will , and the inclination of his heart still remains to commit it . these usually have no farther influence , than to render men like roaring lyons confin'd by iron grates ; like ravenous dogs restrain'd by heavy chains ; onely making an impediment from acting , not an amendment as to the will to act . a lock may stop a thief , yet it alters not his mind . this ineffectualness of judgments , hath often been evidenc'd in the devilish behaviour that hath appeared in many under them . how many in blasphemous enraged passions , have belch'd out most execrable oaths and reproachful speeches against heaven , and the instruments of divine vengeance , et quem oderunt perire cupiunt ; wishing the destruction of the god that destroyed them ? as the cilicians made war against mount a●tna , spitting out sulphureous flames upon them : with such madness do rebellious wretches contend with the almighty , consuming them by the fire of deserved vengeance . how often do men bid defiance to god heaping up plagues upon them ! and stopt in their sinful courses as balaam by the angel , still will spur on in despite of god himself . zeph. 3.5 . every morning be brings his ●udgments to light , but the wicked know no ●hame . sins were continued under continual judgments ; so ier. 5.3 . they were smitten , and did not grieve . and if at any time judgments have affected a sinful people , by reason of the extremity of them : yet all those appearances of devotion under them , have been mostly delusions ; being onely the workings of nature , expressing a sense of suffering , not the effects of grace , declaring a sorrow for sinning : hence hardned pharaoh un●er the distress of miraculous judgments , is seemingly moved with repentance . thus thousands are beautiful in pangs , but 't is onely the operations of judgments on the body , not their impression on the heart . but this ●neffectualness of destroying judgments , ●s declared abundantly by the following carriage of the sufferers by them . for how many have we known , after the wea●ing off the smarting sense of vengeance , have proved the grandees and imperialists in provoking wickednesses ? and the storm of judgements being a little over , have rid on with a full carreer , and un●ridled chase , in their unlicensed courses . since then this way effects so little , god will rather make use of mercies : since horrid desolations will make no mere impression , god will make experiment what deliverance will do . so then , to conclude this head , god uses these means , because as sola misericordia deducit deum ad homines , so sola misericordia reducit homines ad deum : as mercy onely brings down god to man , so mercy onely brings back man to god. proposition 2. such is the wickedness of our corrupted hearts , that we are prone to proceed in sin , notwithstanding the lord is using these means with us to reclaim us . we are apt to make use of our deliverances to further our sins , rather than improve them to the forsaking of them . for as the red sea drinks in the river iordan yet is never the sweeter ; and the vas● ocean all other rivers , yet is not th● fresher : so we receive the most excellent mercies , and yet are but little the better . so entire is our cursed affection to ou● espoused lusts , that whoever be dis-engaged , and whoever be displeased , we ar● too much resolv'd to continue in them . hence the mercies god gives for encouragements to serve him , we turn to be instruments of sinning against him . when god doth most for us in ways of mercy , we are prone to do most against him in ways of sin . 't is reported of the leopard , that 't is most savage to those that do most for it . too true it is of us ; we are wretchedly most unkind , to those that shew most kindness to us . felicitate corrumpimur , outward felicitie makes us abound in iniquity . after the receipt of special favours , we often loosen the reins to impiety , and run more extravagantly after our own inventions . how many become more nimble in the feats of iniquity , by being anointed with the oyl of mercy ? men nurse the hateful brats of their devilish lusts , at the breast of divine bounty . our envenom'd natures extract food for the nourishment of abominable sins , from the singular favours of a gracious god. as when the season grows warm , by fructifying rays of the sun , the weeds spring up ; so by the increase of mercies , there is often the abounding of iniquity , hos 10.1 . israel is an empty vine : or , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , vitis luxurians ; a wild vine : according to the multitudes of his fruits , he hath increased the altars , i. e. quo res habuit pr●speriores , eo magis indulsit idololatriae , gro● the more prosperity , the more idolatry . 't is observed of the spleen , the greater it grows , the less the body is : the more temporal mercies , the less heavenly spirits and holy obedience . hos. 4.7 . as they increased , they sinned against me . heb. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sicut multiplicari eis , as i multiplyed to them ; or , as i increased deliverances , honour , riches ; so they sinned against me . as judgments will not bridle us , so mercies will not break us off our sinning . isa. 26.10 . let favour be shown to the wicked , yet will he not learn righteousness . in the former verses the prophet shews , that the people of god would serve him even under afflictions ; but as for the wicked , neither mercies nor afflictions work upon them . mercies are messengers to instruct us our duty ; but although for many years we have been called upon by them , yet how little have we learnt to love , serve , and obey our god by them ? noah miraculously delivered , is abominably drawn into sin . he that had the highest proofs of the mercy and justice of god , mercy to himself , justice to the world , lyes drunk in his tent ; preserved from waters , overcome by wine : behold , you may see him guilty of the sin for which he saw the world condemned ; you may see him to be rebuked for the sin he so often had reproved : and he that was so holy before , now becomes a pattern of uncleanness , and example for future wickedness : thus prone are the best to sin after deliverance . thus holy hezekiah , 2 chron. 32.24 , 25. god delivered him from death , but he rendred not to the lord according to the benefit done unto him ; for his heart was lifted up , not with thankfulness , but haughtiness ; not in praises , but with pride . deut. 32.15 . ieshurun waxed fat and kicked , then be forsook the god that made him , and lightly esteemed the rock of his salvation . deliverance had made way for his promotion ; and he being promoted , god was rejected . righteous lot by distinguishing favour escaping the flames of sodom , fell into the fire of sin . the ashes of sodom , the pillar of salt , made him not wise enough to shun the drunken bed of incest . who could have thought lot should fall into such impieties , upon the receipt of such mercies ? but thus prone are we to abuse goodness , and ready to slight the greatest kindness : how often do we turn our physick to poison ? how often do we make our mercies commeatus peccandi , inlets to sin ? 't is said concerning eve , that god design'd her an helper to adam , and made her of his rib ; but the devil 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , took his rib , and made it a fatal dart . so god gives mercies with good intentions , but satan siding with our corrupt inclinations , makes use of them to our great disadvantage . i shall now consider how it comes to pass , that deliverances have no more influence upon us , and how we become so prone to sin after them . ( 1. ) it arises from the mighty power that accustomed sins have upon the heart . when highest reasons are obliging to leave sin , the force of custom prevents their operation . when men are soaked in sensuality , flesht in villany , thorough-paced in rebellious courses , what is able to change them ? hereby the heart is so direfully hardned , the devil's kingdom so invincibly fortified , and sin itself so much endeared , that there is unspeakable difficulty in conquering of it . ezek. 16.4 . when delivered from egypt 't is said , their navil was not cut . the navil is that whereby the child is supplyed with nourishment in the mothers womb. so this expression means , israel was still drawing in egyptian manners and superstitions ; being accustomed to them , they still hankered after them , notwithstanding their great deliverance . and although for a while a deliverance may seem to make some impression , yet as the water heated , redit ad ingenium , grows cold again : so affections to god wear off , and men are hankering after their former lusts. so ezek. 23.8 . neither ●eft she her whoredoms brought from egypt . difficile est ab usitatis desinere : accustomed ●ins are hardly deserted : sins often renew●d , are hardly reformed ; sudden mercies , ●hough never so great , will hardly wear ●ut continued sins . 2. the reason why our deliverances work no greater reformation , is , because ●e fix our eyes too much upon second ●auses , and inferiour instruments , with●ut a due acknowledgment of the hand ●f god. hence we are prone to con●eive our selves more obliged to men than 〈◊〉 god himself . how wickedly do ma 〈◊〉 ascribe more to humane policy , and heathenish fortune , than to infinite power and heavenly favour ? hos. 11.3 . they knew not that i healed them . nescire dicitur qui gratiam non refert : he is ignorant who neither observes nor answers the merciful hand of god. attributing deliverances to man , hinders the performance of duty to god. the reason why mercies are not seconded with obedience to god , is , because we look too much to second causes ; so those hab. 1.16 . their portion was fat , and they sacrificed to their nets , and burnt incense to their drags . thus the assyrian proudly ascribed all to himself , isa. 10.14 . by the strength of my hand have i done it , and by my wisdom ; for i am prudent . how can the mercy of god be answered , if it be not owned ? how can we requite god for delivering , if we deny the receipts of deliverance from him ? if we look not upon our mercies as given by god , we shall give god nothing fo● his mercies . 3. deliverances are no more influentia to reclaim from sin , because of our unreasonable oblivion of them . our greatest mercies are but nine days wonders present impressions made by deliverance are soon worn off by neglect of future consideration . the sense of our engagements to obedience wearing off , our inclinations to sin make head . when mercies are new , how frequent is our remembrance of them ? whilst employed in our daily labours , our minds are admiring delivering love : when waking in the night , these are the objects of meditation ; when conversing with friends , these are the theams we discourse of . now somewhat must be done to requite this kindness ; but too sudden a forgetfulness anticipates and prevents the performance of our acknowledged obedience . deut. 32.17 , 18. they are charged with abominable sins ; and it stands as a reason , because they forgot the god that formed them , and the rock that begat them . did we not forget our mercies , our consciences would force us to forsake our sins . were our hearts more but repositories for gods favours , so much iniquity would not be lodged in them . forgetting gods mercies , is not onely a base unworthy sin , but a breeding sin : many desperate sins arise from despising the kindness of our god. and oh , how unspeakably strange is it , that we can forget him , who doth so much to be remembred ? that we can suffer his mercies to pass out of our mind , whose mercies are new every moment ? how impossible would it be to live in unlamented sin , did we live in the sense of undeserved mercies ! hence it is we are so prone to sin after deliverances , because we are so apt to suffer them to slip out of our labile memories . 4. this continuance in sin after deliverances , arises from persons bolstring up themselves with sinful presumptions that the dangers of destruction are past . when men begin to apprehend all things are well , they are apt to take occasion to do ill . when men are conceiving the bitterness of death is past , they little mind to reform the baseness of their lives . they care not how little they live to god , when they presume they shall live long . eccles. 8.11 . because sentence is not speedily executed , therefore the hearts of the sons of men are fully set in themselves to do evil , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 syr. roboratur : their hearts are strengthened , emboldned in them to go on in evil . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. because of this delaying judgments , they go on with a full confidence , they sin with courage . this is as wind to their sayls , that drives them on briskly in sinful courses . with this did the wicked jews under divine comminations hearten themselves in their ways , ezek. 11.3 . saying , it is not near . gods abstinence from judgments , was made an encouragement for continuance in sin . so ezek. 12.21 , 22. the days are prolonged . carnal persons are willing to go on in sin as long as they can : and when dangers are a little gone off , they more boldly go on in desperate sinning . 5. this proneness to sin after such mercy , arises from flattering expectations , that in renewed returns of distress , they shall ever meet with the same deliverance . how do men argue from their present safety , to their future security ? how fondly do men conceive that god will be ever merciful , because of his present mercies ? did men wisely consider after deliverance , how soon they may stand in need of the same helping arm , how soon they may want the same mercy , they could not be so audacious as to slight and contemn it , left the next time they be deprived of it . gods present deliverances are evidences of his power to deliver us again , but not assurances of his will to do it . 't is a groundless supposition men go upon , who think mercies are entail'd upon them , and inseparably annexed to them . we shall experience , if we do not leave off sinning , god can leave off delivering . if we can still forsake god , he can at last forsake us . 6. we are thus inclined to sin against god after deliverance , as we being delivered , our hearts are brought off from their dependance on god , and we are magnifying our selves instead of god. when god hath given us our precious lives from the hands of devouring enemies , we imagine we can live of our selves , and thence are regardless of living to god. hos. 13.6 . they were filled , and their heart was exalted , therefore have they forgotten me . their outward fruitfulness caused their sinful forgetfulness . our hearts are apt to be set upon enjoyments , and not on the god that gives them . hos. 4.11 . whoredome and wine take away the heart . the hebr. word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies auferre , to take away by force ; so did those things take away their heart from god by force ; or occupare , to occupy . they occupy and take up that room in the heart god should have . thus we having worldly enjoyments continued by deliverances , our hearts are detained by them , that we mind not god , care not how we go on in sin against him ; mind not how little obedience we yield to him , as if we could live well enough without him . 7. this proceeding in sin is partly caused by persons apprehending themselves to be innocent , and their courses to be harmless , from the deliverances god gives to them . carnal persons are apt to reckon their ways to be lawful , because they are spared and unpunished in them . hos. 12.8 . ephraim said , i am become rich , i have found me out riches ; in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me , that were sin . as much as to say , were my courses unrighteous , they would not be prosperous ; whatever the prophets charge me with , it appears by the dealings of god with me , that my doings are good ; if i were so sinful , i should not be succesful . thus corrupted persons will vainly argue from gods delivering ; were i so wicked , were my actions so displeasing , god would not have spared me , but delivered me to destruction . but oh how vain are these reasonings ! god bears with long-suffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction ; out of his mercy he gives a space to repent of thy sins . and who so wicked to conclude , that because god exercises patience , therefore they are no offenders ? this is a sign of gods goodness , but not of thine . proposition 3. sinning after deliverance , is the most hainous sinning . it renders sin exceeding great , to commit it after great mercies . it is a great sin , to count any sin small , that is committed against a great god : yet sin hath its aggravations , and admits of degrees , according to the circumstances under which 't is committed . there are two things which render a sin most abominable ; when sin is committed against light , and against love . they are no little nor light sins , that are aggravated with convictions by light : nor are sins against love of an inferiour nature ; nothing more intolerable to man or god , than to have ill will for good deeds . 't is sinful to render evil for evil to man , much more to render evil for good to god. what more provoking sight can be beheld , than a man impudent in evil under judgment , and barren in good under mercies ? affronts to love , are more unsufferable than rebellion under displays of wrath . the highest unkindness , is the highest sinfulness . the sin of david is aggravated by the recording gods kindness to him , 2 sam. 12.7 , 8 , 9. i delivered thee out of the hand of saul , and i gave thee thy masters house — and if that had been too little , i would moreover have given thee such and such things . wherefore then hast thou despised the command of the lord , to do this evil in his sight ? to sin in the face of god when smiling upon us with unmerited mercy , is one of the greatest contempts can be cast upon god. to manifest our sinfulness , when we enjoy the greatest testimonies of goodness , is the height of madness . to withdraw our necks from an uneasie galling yoak , to rebel under the severities of a cruel tyrant , to cast off the service of an imperious master , may admit some excuse ; but to wax wanton under mercies , to despise the clemency of heaven , to deny obedience to a loving father , is an offence indefendible , a crime unpardonable . when god would lay a people under a conviction of the hainousness of their crimes , he repeats his gracious dealings to them . ierem. 2.20 . of old time i have broken thy yoke , i.e. when thou wert in egyptian bondage under intolerable slavery , i set thee free : and thou saidst thou wouldst not transgress , yet thou hast slighted my favours , and broken thy vows ; and under every green tree thou wandrest playing the harlot . and v. 22. this is noted for an indelible sin ; such sins as these are not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , not written , but engraven : they are of the deepest die , and most permanent stain : hos. 7.15 . though i have bound and strengthened their arms , yet do they imagine mischief against me . it hath an allusion to men with broken bones ; oh what would they give for a healing chirurgion ? what price would they give to be free from pain ? so these in distress would promise any thing to god for deliverance : but , says the lord , though i bound them up and cased them , though i strengthened them against the destructive assaults of their enemies , yet still with the highest wickedness and unkindness they imagine mischief against me : the more i did to engage them , the more they have done to dishonour me . the people of israel were charged with their sinning at gilgal above all other places , hos. 9.15 . all their iniquity is in gilgal . the hebr. word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which we render all , signifies summum , praecipuum , i.e. their highest , chiefest , most notorious si● was at gilgal ; why there ? because there it was they received abundance of mercies . here was the great circumcision , when the reproach was rolled away , after they had past over iordan , and arrived to the land of canaan , iosh. 5.7 . here ioshua pitcht the twelve stones , the everlasting memorial of their wonderful deliverance out of iordan , iosh. 4.20 . here was the beginning of the rest promised to them in the land of canaan . now to be involved in sin , when encompast with so many mercies ; to be forsaking god after such late experience of his goodness , this was the highest crime imaginable . now i shall lay down some particular aggravations of sins after deliverances , that so you may lament those you have committed , and labour to prevent them for the future . 1. such sins most wretchedly cast a blot upon the most holy god , as if he were a countenancer of sin , and a patron to persons impieties , rather than a severe avenger of them . christ was accounted a friend to publicans and sinners , for shewing kindness unto them : and will not atheistical wretches be ready to asperse the glorious god as a friend to sin , for improving his power to deliver such persons as improve his deliverance onely for sin ? 't is reported of one prophane dionysius , that when by his covetous pilfering he had preyed on a temples glory , and enricht himself with its sacred treasure , and after transporting his treasures , escaping a fatal shipwrack of which he was in danger , with the greatest impudence cryes out , how do the gods love sacriledge ! because he presumed they delivered him a robber , he imagined they loved robbery : psal. 50.21 . because i kept silence , thou thoughtst me altogether such an one as thy self , i. e. quod tuis maleficiis delector , muis. gods patient forbearance , made him reckon god unrighteous as himself . to go on in sin when delivered from ruine , is practically to say , i am delivered to sin . such an impiety was charged on the jews , ierem. 7.10 . will ye steal , and murder , and say , we are delivered to do all these abominations ? they were not come to that height of profaneness , to declare it in so many words ; but by their ungodly courses after his gracious deliverances , they did as much as say it . what is this but to make god an unholy god ? what greater aggravations of our sins can there be , than to cast dirt on the holiness of god , which is the aggravation of all his glory ? certainly , if god suffers dishonour by his exercising goodness to us , we shall suffer destruction for our abusing of it . god will shew no favour to those , who make him a favourer of sin . 2. such sinning is so abominable , because 't is a justification of all our former sins . this is in effect to say , we have done well enough in sinning ; god is not angry with us , therefore we will still go on in our former courses , and follow our old wickednesses . how provoking must this needs be to god ? when instead of a humiliation for sins , he sees a justification of them : instead of a contrite lamentation for our evils , he finds an audacious approbation of them . how can a holy god bear this at our hands ? we cannot justifie the best of our actions before the lord , how abominable then to justifie those that are apparent evils ? it was very displeasing to god for ionah to say , i do well to be angry . and shall we say , we did well to be proud and profane , to be drunkards and swearers ? and what else is our persistence in sin , but a testimony of our allowance of it ? 3. such sinning , implies a daring provocation of god to destroy us . to despise god sparing and delivering , is to dare him to smite and destroy us . not to care for deliverance , is as much as to say , we do not fear destruction , isa. 5.19 . let him hasten his work that we may see it . this impudent expression either respects gods power , q. d. let him do his worst , we fear not , as men that had over-grown divine justice , and become too big and too strong for the almighties arm ; or it may be spoken in respect of the truths and threatnings declared by the prophets challenging god to the accomplishment o● them . but will god suffer himself to b● dared by worms ? can you daunt his unalterable courage ? can you hold the almighties hands , or lay bonds on his judgments , that they shall not destroy you will god suffer his creatures to insult ove● him ? are we out of his reach , that we fea● no ruine ? can we match him with equa● forces ? sure we are nothing to him . how then can he indure a challenge from us how can he suffer our sins after mercies ? by these sins we are like those , iob 15.25 , 26. who stretch out their hands against god , and strengthen themselves against the almighty , &c. but who ever contended with him , and prospered ? it will be dreadful to fall into the hands of a living god. and this will certainly be the portion of those that affront him with such daring provocations . 4. these sins are so hainous , as by them the delivering mercy of god is horribly undervalued . what is our rebellion after the reception of such mercies , but to declare we account not our selves obliged to god for them ? what is this but to disown the greatness of the favours god bestows upon us ? what greater dis-ingenuity can be exprest , than to diminish the greatest favours of god , in love to our devillish lusts ? every mercy that comes from so great a god , must needs be great : but to undervalue the choicest blessings and highest mercies , must needs be a point of the highest wickedness . vvas it a small mercy , that by our late deliverance so many thousand lives have been continued , such multitudes of souls have been kept out of hell ? is it nothing in your eyes to be delivered from popish slavery ? to have the glorious gospel continued amongst us ? is the security of church and state , the miraculous preservation of priviledges and liberties a contemptible kindness ? shall all these things have no notice taken of them ? shall they all be dis-regarded ? will you say 't is not worth while to leave sinning for these ? dare you declare they deserve no obedience ? let your conscience speak , would not this be horrid blasphemy ? could you bear such undervaluing of kindness from fellow-creatures ? how then can god from you ? 5. those sins are the testimonies of the highest ingratitude conceivable . ingratitude is the worst of sins ; and sinning after deliverance is the worst ingratitude . this is unkindness that pierces the heart of god , to rebel against him , dealing with us as the dearly beloved of his soul. how ungrateful is't to assassinate a prince , to whose care we owe our lives and fortunes ? to rip open the bowels of her , to whom we owe our being ? so is it to dishonour a god , that is both our protector and benefactor , our preserver and deliverer . david was greatly incens'd at the ingratitude of churlish nabal , 1 sam. 25.21 . surely in vain have i kept all this fellow had in the wilderness , and he requites me evil for good . will not the almighty thus complain of an ungrateful people ; surely in vain have i kept them from the hands of their bloody enemies , in vain i have delay'd the execution of judgment , since all my return is dishonour for deliverance , sinning for saving of them ? may not god speak to us , after the manner our blessed saviour spoke to the jews ? for which of my good works do you stone me ? for which of my good works do you sin against me ? will you oppose me , because i appear so often for you ? will you hate me , because i help you ? will you rebel , because i relieve you ? is this the fruit of my goodness ? the lord was greatly offended with his vineyard , isai. 5. because after all his care to make it fruitful , it brought forth wild grapes . i looked it should bring forth grapes , and it brought forth wild grapes . when god bestows any mercies upon us , his eye is upon us to see what improvement we are making of them : he looks to see what ●hou dost with thy time , thy talent ; his eye is upon thee , to see what use thou makest of means , deliverances , and all thy enjoyments : and when he uses good means , he looks for good fruit ; and if we ungratefully bring forth wild grapes , we shall highly provoke him , and to our disadvantage displease him . how intolerable a sin must it needs be , to fight against god with his goodness ? to mischief his honour with his mercies ? should you be an instrument of raising a decayed friend , and he turn your enemy , and use the estate procured by you , to manage mischievous designs against you , would you not count it intolerable baseness ? now what less , yea how infinitely more is your abusing the mercies of god , to the disadvantage of his glory , and dishonour of his name ? should a● neighbourly physician freely endeavour the relief of a helpless beggar , and after his cost and care , when this man is restor'd , he should make it his work to study the death of this worthy friend , how intolerable ingratitude would this be accounted ? what else is our sinning against god , on his sparing of us ? what is it but the destroying the honour of him , who saved us from destruction ? deut. 32.6 . do ye thus requite the lord , ye foolish people and unwise ? when ungrateful brutus was among those that came to destroy caesar , he pathetically cryed out , etiam tu brute ! what , thou my son brutus ! wilt thou stab me ? may not god cry out upon us , what ye , oh people of england , will ye still be enemies ? you whom i have so deliver'd ? you whom i have so often preserved , shall i meet with these dealings from you ? of all people you are obliged to love and serve me , and will you improve all my mercies against me ? 6. by sinning after deliverance , we most unjustly deny to go● that which is ●is right and due fo●●●livering of us . deliverance is the price of god for our lives and services . god redeeming of us , we remain no longer our own , but are especially obliged to be his . what can we give to god for preserving our lives , less than 〈…〉 and that 's an unanswerabl● 〈◊〉 for the exercise of ●is wisdome and power 〈◊〉 delivering of us . can we then rob god of his due , without 〈◊〉 height of injustice ? is not this the most ●●tolerable sacrilege ? the mercies of god are to hire us to obedience . will a master suffer a servant to be engag'd in the work of another , when he hath hired him for his own ? is it not a provoking sin , for you to be employ'd in the service of the devil , when god hath hired you into his ? the apostle pressing the corinthians to obedience tells them , they are not their own , but are bought with a price . thus may we be perswaded to obedience , by considering , god hath bought our lives , by saving us from death . 7. sinning now is so heinous , as hereby god is frustrated of his designs in granting such favours . what may god expect , when stretching out his hand to help us , but tha● then we will inclin● our hearts to honour him ? what are th● designs of god in displays of mercy , bu● to raise up glory to himself ? he exerciseth goodness to promote his own interest in the world , not the devils . wi● god exercis● mercy to his own disadvantage ? will a ●ational man put weapons into the hands of those would slay him with them ? would you deliver ● man to destroy you ? surely the lord may justly expect love for his kindness duty for his mercy , obedience for hi● deliverance . isai. 63.8 , 9 , 10. he said , surely , they are my people , children that will not lye ; so he became their saviour . this verse contains a kinde of expostulation that might be in god ; why should i save such a people as this ? i have enough against them to destroy them . i have found their unfaithfulness to their promises , their unanswerableness to my gracious providences , why should i deliver them ? then god comes to a resolution , mercy turns the scale , goodness prevails ; i will try them once more ; they are my people , children that will not lye ; i hope they will not frustrate me any more : i may take this opportunity to cut them off , but i will make experiment once more . but proving unfaithful , he became their enemy , and fought against them . how heinous a sin ●s it to cross gods ends , to walk contrary to him ! 8. sinning now is so heinous , as 't is not only a neglecting duty , but despising remedy . there are peccata contra officia , and contra remedia ; sins against duties in omitting things commanded , and sins against remedy , slighting and opposing ●he means which are designed for recovery from former evils . and now what sin can be greater , than to despise the means that are used to cure our bleeding wounds ? what aggravates the sin of unbelief , and makes it the destroying sin , but because 't is the contemning of that blessed remedy which is provided for miserable sinners ? hence this sin binds on the sinners guilt with an eternal bond , and makes salvation impossible . thus also slighting deliverance is the highest sin , as thereby we bid open defiance to all means of recovering of us from sin & destruction . neglecting salvation hath a most provoking influence on the wrath of god : heb. 2.3 . how shall we escape , if we neglect so great salvation ? vvill the lord bear this affront to his mercy , that when he is willing to save , we declare we regard no salvation ? this will be an unpardonable crime , there will be no escaping for us . to sin with deliverance , is no less than to throw away the healing balm that mercy provides , and resolve to make our wounds incurable . proposition 4. sins after deliverance have a peculiar influence to procure and hasten destruction . our present safety is no security against future judgments : destruction deferred by gods deliverances , will be hastned by our sinning after them : those whom undeserved mercies can't reclaim , incensed justice will speedily ruine . the monuments of greatest mercies , have been made examples to declare the severity of justice for the abuses of them . such have experienced the most direful suffering , to whom the almighty hath been most long-suffering . vvitness the deplorable state of the hardned iews , to whom the most singular favour was extended of any people on earth ; yet now who more miserable than those rejected wretches , for their abusing favours ? justice will frown most sharply upon the disdainful affronters of mercy . no people are nearer an utter desolation , than those who heap up sin , when god is heaping up mercies . although the lord be most willing to smite , yet he knows not how to spare when provoked in this manner . ier. 5.7 . how shall i pardon thee for this . — when i had fed them to the full , then they committed adultery , v. 9. shall i not visit for these things , saith the lord ? shall i not be avenged on such a nation as this ? these sins put god to a stand ; he knows not how to go about a pardoning act , although he delights so greatly in it : how shall i pardon , heb. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 parcam : how shall i spare thee any longer ? i can't withhold the hands of my justice , i can't defer the punishment of these transgressions . thence , v. 10. god gives a commission to enemies , go upon the walls and destroy , &c. delay no longer : let those feel the smarting impressions of justice , that despise the sweetest expressions of mercy . this wrath of god against despisers of goodness , appears , 1 sam. 12.24 , 25. consider how great things the lord hath done : but if ye still continue to do wickedly , ye shall be consumed both ye and your king. when once a people rise to that height of impiety , that the most obliging kindness heaven can show , can't win their hearts to obedience ; what can be expected from heaven , but the severest vengeance an almighty arm can bring upon them ? will not the lord soon rush out upon a people with wonderful plagues , when they are knocking at the door of justice by such impenitent courses ? the most gracious prince would dispatch that man , who should impudently persist in traiterous designs against him , after a deliverance from death by his pardoning of him . thus will the king of heaven miserably destroy delivered sinners rebelling against him . divine patience sheathing the sword of justice , will at last desist its pleading for the abusers of it ; and impatient justice by its revengeful arm will avenge the quarrel of despised mercy : ezek. 16.43 . because thou hast not remembred the days of thy youth : q. d. the kindness and favour i then extended to thee ; the deliverances thou hadst from me : behold , i will recompence thy ways upon thy ●ead . thou hast grieved me with sin , i will grind thee to pieces with judgments ; thou hast recompensed me with hatred for ●ove , i will recompense hatred for your ●atred . thus will god deprive those of mercies , that deprive him of the glory of ●hem . 2 kings 21.13 . god there threa●ens to wipe jerusalem as a man wipes a ●ish , q. d. he would take away all their ●elicate enjoyments , as meat is thrown ●ut of a dish . they shall feed on judgments , who were wanton when fed with ●ercies : but the hebrew signifies , delebo ierusalem sicut deleri solent tabulae . as impressions on tables are wont to be wiped out , so shall my impressions of goodness upon them : the former inscriptions of honour and prosperity shall no more be seen , but the prints of destroying judgments shall be found upon them . it shall no more be written , these are a people delivered , but , these are a people destroyed for abusing deliverance . this fatal consequence of despising favours , may be illustrated from the words of god , hos. 6.4 . oh ephraim what shall i do unto thee ? for your goodness is as a morning cloud , and as the early dew it passeth away . many interpret your goodness , the goodness bestowed on you , or your mercies . so the sence is , my goodness that i bestow upon you , is but like a morning cloud , that is dissipated and scattered , and doth no good to you , you are not the better for it . and as the early dew it passeth away , i. e. gratiam & misericordiam meam malitia vestra absorbetis : you soon wear off the impressions of my mercy , as the moistnings of the early dew are soon dryed up by the earth ; therefore v. 7. i have hewed them by the prophets , my judgments are broken out upon them : or otherwise , the tokens of my mercy make but short impression on you ; your goodness fades away , you soon return to sin : what now shall i do to you ? i am resolved to try no more mercies ; i have made you grow with my kindness like flourishing trees , now will i hew you down ; because you are so unprofitable , i will be unmerciful to you . here it will not be amiss to consider , how this persistence in sin after deliverance , promotes and hastens the destruction of a people . 1. hereby that peculiar respect that god hath for one people above another , is made to cease ; and they are lookt upon no otherwise , than the vilest of people in the world . in gods providen●ial dispensations , he bears some singular favour to some , beyond what he doth to others , although these may be nothing more deserving than other nations ; and from this favour he confers singular temporal blessings upon them ; and these he ●alls his people , as especially cared for , ●reserved and provided for by him . but 〈◊〉 these despise his kindness , and con●●mn his goodness , he then un-peoples ●●em , and casts them out of his favour ; ●nd then they become as liable to judg●ents , as the greatest abjects in the world . thus was it with the people of the iews , the lord separated them from all the world for his care and charge : hence he did mighty things for them ; but continuing long in their sins , notwithstanding his mercies , hos. 2.9 . he bids the prophet tell them , ye are not my people , i will not be your god ; and this rejection made way for that ruine now upon them . in the 9th of amos , the prophet is threatning judgment against that sinful people , against which they fortified themselves with presumptuous boastings of their being gods people , chosen by him , & so often owned by deliverances ; but for their abusing mercies , god tells them , v. 7. are ye not as the children of the aethiopians unto me ? saith the lord , i.e. non pluri● vos facio quam aethiopes , grot. you are now no more to me than the vilest people . you have been under my care , and now ye are under my curse : ye remain unchangeable in your sins , as the aethiopians in their colour , and therefore ye shall b● of no more account with me than they● vvhat though we have been more to god than any people on earth , and received more blessings then any nation● near us , insomuch that we might be called his chosen people for his care over us ? vvill not despising mercies , sinning after deliverances , make him say , as hos. 9.15 . i will love you no more ? vvhat shall we be more to him than the aethiopians , if we be like them in sin ? ezek. 15.2 . what is the vine-tree more than another ? i.e. if the vine bring forth no fruit , what is it more than another tree ? why should it not be burnt ? vvhatever we have been , if we be fruitless and ungrateful , why should we not be punisht ? if we be not bearing trees , may not god make us burning trees ? if we be not bettered by deliverance , why may we not be destroyed ? 2. hereby the lord is made in a manner to repent of delivering a people : when men have gratified their fellow-creatures with signal favours , and after such expressions of respect have nothing but ungrateful returns ; it makes them wish they had never bestowed their love on such unworthy persons . thus the almighty god , unjustly requited for mercies , is said to repent him of his conferring kindness on a people . but we must observe that golden rule ; quae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 deo tribuuntur , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 debent intelligi : those things which are attributed to god after the manner of men , must be understood as become the majesty of god. so gods repenting is an improper allusive term , expressing not a change in gods mind , but in his action : not implying such an affection in god as repentance , but alluding to the effect of such an affection in man , gen. 6.6 . it repented god that he made man , and it grieved him to the heart . this implies gods wrathful indignation at mans miscarriage , but no disturbing alteration in the mind of god , who is ever the same . but to speak after the manner of men , when a people continue in sins after deliverance , god may say , oh! it repents me that i have delivered a people thus to dishonour me ; it repents me to do so much for a people , to do thus much against me . oh! how near are such a people to destruction , of whose deliverance god repents him ! how soon will they be involved in ruine , of whom god may be provoked to say , as david of nabal , 1 sam. 25.21 . in vain have i kept all this man hath in the wilderness ; in vain have i preserved the lives and liberties of this people , since the fruit of all is onely to be rebelled against and dishonoured by them . if we thus make the lord griev'd at the heart for bestowing mercies , god will grieve us to the heart by destroying judgments . 3. hereby god is provoked to stop all proceedings in way of deliverance , and leave a people to successless shiftings for themselves : iudges 10.12 , 13. did i not deliver you from the egyptians , and from the amorites ? yet ye have forsaken me ; i will deliver you no more . sinning after deliverance , dis-engages god from appearing any more for us . and what can be more dreadful , than to hear god say in his wrath , oh ye ingrateful people ! i have once and again improved my wisdom and power on your behalf , to prevent your ruine ; but since ye go on still to provoke me , whatever your condition is hereafter , you must never look for help from me ; whoever be your enemy , you must not look for me to be your friend : i will never stand up for such rebels , nor dishonour my name in delivering you to sin against me . we cannot want comfort whilst under promises of divine assistance , and help from heaven in our dangers ; but if god stands off , we must inevitably fall into the hands of our enemies , and become preys to their greedy lusts . if god says i will add no more deliverance , there is none can promise deliverance to us . oh miserable people , whom god thus forsakes in anger ! we shall never see another deliverance , if the lord should resolve i will add no more . we shall never out-live the dangers we daily live in , if god should determine to leave us to them . corruption in our ways under mercies , will cause a cessation of them . so it was with the people of the iews , hos. 1.6 . call her name lo-ruchamah , for i will not add any more to the house of israel , but i will utterly take away . i will add no more days of prosperity , years of plenty ; no more gracious deliverances , or pledges of mercy , but i will utterly take away : i have been filling , but now will i empty you ; the hebr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies obliviscendo , obliviscor , in forgetting i will forget them . i will no more be favourable to them , but forgetful of them ; though they perish , i wo'nt remember them ; they have not minded my mercies , i will not mind their miseries . thus god puts a stop to the streams of mercy , locks up the store-house of blessings , and adds no more . david prays , psal. 36.10 . oh continue thy loving kindness , &c. hebr. signifies , pertraha , draw out , lengthen out the tokens of thy love ; but this will be onely to those that are drawn to god by them . they may call every mercy a ios●ph , which signifies , god will add more . but 't is not so with ungrateful sinners , god will make an end of bestowing mercies , unless they make an end of abusing of them : god will cease deliverances , unless we cease dishonouring him with them . yea , although a deliverance may be begun to a people , whereby they appear in a happy way to escape ; yet persisting in sin , god will carry on the work no farther , but leave them to ruine . hence then , what especial care should be used to reform our lives , and renew our repentance , lest our deliverance should be left unperfected ? we are in no better capacity to finish it now begun , than we were to begin it , if god stands off . our proceeding in sin , will hinder our god from proceeding in mercy . indulging our provoking lusts , will endanger our precious lives . these merciful buddings of providence may easily be knipt . this small glimmering light may soon be over-clouded ; our door of hope may soon be shut . shall we provoke a gracious god to say , i will add no more ? shall we make him complain of being weary of delivering ? what makes a stop to our deliverance , but our continuance in sin ? this makes god in the posture we read of , ier. 14.9 . as a man astonied , as a mighty man that cannot save . hebr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pavidus , as one afraid of us , astonish'd at our iniquities . a man astonisht doth walk up and down this way and that way , knows not what course to take ; so our sinning whilst god is delivering , makes god at a loss what to do . sometimes he goes forward with deliverance , sometimes it seems to stand still , another while it looks as if it were set back ; and all this , because we amaze god with our daring sins . god told the people of israel , admiring he went not on with deliverance , isa. 59.1 , 2. my hand is not shortned that it cannot save , nor my ear deafned that it cannot hear ; but your iniquities separate between you and your god , &c. we drive god from us by our sins ; and how then can our salvation be carryed on ? shall we make god go back and repent of the good he hath seemed to design for us ? our sinning will do it : ier. 18.10 . if it doth evil in my sight , i will repent of the good wherewith i said i will benefit it . shall we not repent of sinning , rather than provoke god thus to repent of his purpose to deliver ? why will you blast all your hopes of escape , and wither that flower that 's springing up ? oh then , if you desire a farther deliverance , desert your former sins ! or else god will resolve to add no more . by this most abominable persistence in sin , the lord is provoked not onely to stop deliverances , but to step into ways of judgments , and that with unalterable resolutions to destroy . instead of enabling people against enemies , he enables enemies against them . instead of delivering from cruel adversaries , he justly delivers them up unto them . hereby his saving arm becomes a smiting hand , and mercy it s●lf is made an enemy . hereby our greatest friend becomes an implacable foe ; and whereas oftentimes before he had graciously sent commissions from heaven for deliverance , now in his wrath he dispenseth commands , and issues out writs to destroy . this severity to a sinful people you may see , isa. 63.9 , 10. in his love and in his pity he redeemed them ; but they rebelled and vext his holy spirit , therefore he was turned to be their enemy , and fought against them . now how can they hope to escape , that have a victorious god to oppose them ! how miserably will those be ruin'd , that by despising gods helping pitty , convert it to destroying enmity ? oh , that the terrour of divine displeasure for such transgressions , thus exemplified in others , might have that sutable influence on our hearts , as to prevent them in us ! let others corrections be our admonitions ; let gods vindictive judgments on others , be instructive warnings to us : rev. 15.4 . who will not fear thee , thy judgments are made manifest ! let others confusion be a subject of our consideration ; and know , if we continue enemies to god , after his friendly , fatherly dealings , he will soon become our enemy , and fight against us ; then the deepest policy , the highest power can be no security to us . but that which is the most direful consequence of this horrid sinning , is , that it brings the eternal god to unmoveable resolutions , to accomplish the destruction of such a people . he will not be prevailed with to deliver those , whom his mercies could not prevail with to desist from sin . if we grow incorrigible under mercies , god will grow inexorable when under judgments . if a deaf ear be turned to god , when by mercies he calls for duty ; he will turn a deaf ear to us , when we in misery invocate his mercy : whatever hopes we may flatter our selves withal , we shall meet with no help from god , when thus provoked . although such is the goodness of god , that he often repents before he destroys ; yet such provocations will make him weary of repenting , and resolve to ruine : ier. 15.6 , 7. thou hast forsaken me , saith the lord , thou hast gone away backward ; therefore will i stretch out my hand against thee , i am weary of repenting . i have long indulged you , but i will now spare no longer , but avenge your sins : some render it , laboravi rogans , &c. i have taken pains intreating you to repent , till i am weary ; but now ye that have wearyed me with your sins , shall be wearied with judgments : so v. 7. i will fan them with a fan in the gates : that is , i will scatter them about as the chaff is scattered with a fan ; i will bereave them of children , and destroy my people , sith they return not from their ways . thus impenitent sinning brings unavoidable judgments : and divine vengeance will infallibly pursue such as persist in these hainous sins . no sanctuary shall shelter these ungrateful wretches from the hands of justice ; nor shall flattering intreaties prevent the ruine of such unrepenting sinners . the deserved judgments that belong to these inhumane offenders of mercy , will be threatned with unalterable certainty . thus you may see them denounced against an incorrigible people , ezech. 24.13 , 14. because i have purged thee and thou wast not purged , thou shalt not be purged till i have caused my fury to rest upon you . because i have purged thee , q. d. i have endeavoured to perswade thee , and oblige thee to leave thy filthy sins : verba quae effectum notant , saepe de conatu intelliguntur : estius . so god is said to do what he requires , desires , permits , or perswades to be done . thus god had been inducing of them to obedience , reducing of them from sin ; but under all , they were unspeakably obstinate ; which caused these desperate resolutions in god against them . he would make his fury rest upon them : and their doom is confirmed with the highest asseverations conceivable , v. 14. i the lord have spoken , i. e. i that am of undoubted faithfulness , and cannot lye ; of infinite power , and can execute my pleasure ; i have spoken it , and it shall come to pass ; whatever evasions you think to make , however secure and careless you are , it shall come to pass , and i will do it . i will undertake the ruine of such as rebel against my mercies , and abuse the greatest instrument of raising my honour , viz. my patience ; i will not go back , neither will i spare or repent . when i begin , i will carry on my work ; i will not break off my judgments , since ye will not break off your sins ; the sentence is irrevocable , you must expect no reversion of it , nor deliverance from it . now surely vengeance threatned with thus much certainty , will fall upon a people with intolerable severity . when judgments are thus punctually determined , it cannot be expected they should be a long while delay'd . what hopes now can we have , if persisting in sin after our many merciful escapes ? will not this grave-stone be laid upon us ? will not a consumption be decreed from the lord of hosts against us ? what though we are spared this once , after all our former evasions ? are we now out of danger ? are there no instances to be found of a people preserved , delivered , as often as we , and at last the writs of destruction were issued forth ? what think you of that example , amos 7. in the vision of the prophet , the judgments of god on that people were shadowed by various destructive things : v. 1. by grass-hoppers , meaning the army of the assyrians , which were ready to invade them ; but god from his infinite clemency prevented their ruine by them : v. 3. the lord repented for this , and said , it shall not be : v. 4. this people are threatned with another consuming judgment exprest by fire : whereby was signified either a drought , or the devastations of their cities , by that unmerciful enemy and element ; or the ruining calamities which they were near involved in by teglathphalasar ; yet now again he delivers them : v. 6. this also shall not be . but this language is too good to hold always to unbettered sinners : now therefore , v. 7. god will wink no longer at their ungrateful sinning , he now is weary of repenting . the lord stood upon a wall with a plumb-line in his hand : a metaphor from those that build walls , they use a line to proceed exactly . thus the lord declares he would no longer tolerate their abuses , nor use his clemency to deliver , but would exercise strictest justice till they were ruined : hence v. 8 , 9. a miserable destruction is threatned , i will pass by them no more , &c. enemies shall now prevail , judgments shall effectually take place ; i will use nothing but strictness and severity . now this leads me to the fifth proposition . proposition 5. destruction for sinning after deliverance , will be the most dreadful destruction : what can be more clear than this , from the words of my text ? should we again break thy commands , wouldst thou not be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us , so that there should be no remnant nor escaping ? that is , no common calamity would then fall upon us ; no ordinary punishment would be our portion ; but we exceeding the common measure and degree of sin , thou wouldst exceed the common degree of judgment : e dulcissimo vino acerrimum fit acetum ; the sweetest wines make sowrest vinegar ; the strongest perfumes are fatal as poysons ; abused mercy will be avenged with unusual miseries . no mercy is to be expected in judgment , when mercies are despised that kept off judgments . kindness not effecting an answerable reformation , will abundantly aggravate revengeful destruction : isaiah 29.1 , 2. god threatens ariel , sc. ierusalem , that wonderful distress should fall upon it ; and it should be to him as ariel . ariel was the altar for whole-burnt offerings , ezech. 43.15 . now to avenge their abuses of mercies there , god would make their city , once the richest of their mercies , an altar on which their blood should be offered as a sacrifice to justice . thus our mercies abused , may become knives to open our throats ; our cities and towns so often delivered , may be as altars , about which our lifeless bodies may be heaped as sacrifices about the altar . the quintessence of all judgments , the substance of all plagues , shall be mingled in one cup , with all the dregs of wrath , for the despisers of clemency and mercy . mercy is sweet that is extended to us in midst of judgments ; and judgments severe , when executed on a people abounding with mercies . a deliverance cannot bring so great mercies , but sinning after it will usher in as dreadful judgments . by how much the greater the deliverance is we receive , so much the greater will be the destruction for sinning after it . a thick cloud hath been over our heads , and the favourable gale of mercy hath partly disperst it ; but the ascending of sinful vapours will cause the lord to return our sins upon our heads , with overwhelming inundations of judgments ; slighting the gales of mercy , preventing ruine , will bring most dreadful storms of vengeance . our float of goodness may be turned into floods of misery . our sun may set at noon-day ; and our cisterns , now fill'd from the boundless ocean of unmerited benignity , may soon be filled from the vials of wrath , with the waters of marah . our destruction adjourned a while , may return with unexemplify'd terrour . the lord threatned the backsliding iews , deut. 4.25 , 26. that if after his kindness in conducting them from egyptian slavery , with infinite mercies through a tiresome wilderness , to the blessed land of canaan ; ( i say ) if then they should sin against him , although they had remained a long time there , they should not prolong their days upon it , but utterly be destroyed from off it . thus notwithstanding our sinful nation hath many years been like an eden , a palace of royal glory , a canaan flowing with milk and honey , a theatre of mercies , an unparalleld monument of many deliverances ; yet continuing in sin , will deface its envyed glory , and render it a stage for destroying judgments , and lay it waste with storms of successive plagues ; and then it shall be said , this is the nation that would never leave sinning , till it forced the almighty to make it a ruinous heap , a land desolate and not inhabited . what high time is it then to depart from sin , left an ichabod be wrote upon us ! which signifies , their glory is departed . with what terrour may we look on those words ? psalm 68.20 , 21. vnto god belongs salvation , but he will wound the hairy scalp of every one that goes on in sin : though he will multiply salvations to such as serve him the more for them , yet will he glorifie his justice in destroying such as go on in sin after them . the hebr. word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies altè imprimere ; god will make a deep impression of the hands of justice on all such incorrigible persons . the heaviest judgments will fall on the contemners of the highest mercies . judgment will be with most amazing terrour , on the contemners of the almighties favour . as gods resolutions against such sins will make destruction irrevocable , so his wrath backt with unlimited power , will make them intolerable . now here i shall endeavour to shew you for what reasons destroying judgments will be thus heightned by provoking sins after deliverance . 1. because the longer judgments are coming , the greater severity they are attended with , when falling upon us . the longer a blow is fetching , the deeper impression is made by its force . if god tarries long before he punishes , the greater terrour will be in his punishment . the destruction of the old world was delayed for many years , but at last it was accomplisht with the greater severity . deus tardus est ad iram , sed tarditatem vindictae gravitate compensat . whilst sinners ruine is deferr'd , god is putting himself into postures of judgment , whetting his glittering sword , sharpning his terrible arrows feathered with our sins , that so he may make the more sharp and sudden destruction . there is crudelitas parcens , sparing cruelty , as well as misericordia puniens , punishing mercy . the longer the cloud is gathering , the more dripping showre is expected when it falls . so the greater provocations are treasur'd up in the days of gods patience , the more miserable destruction will be in the days of his vengeance : isa. 42.14 . a long time have i held my peace ; i have been still and refrained my self ; now will i cry like a travailing woman , i will destroy and devour at once . you shall know i have not lost my power , though i have exercised my patience ; though yo● have shared so much in my mercy , i will at length proportion the severity of my justice , to the clemency of my mercy . i will destroy you at once ; i 'll give no more alaruming warnings , awakening calls , or monitory afflictions ; but now will i bring ruine on a sudden , with unavoidable calamities : iob 21.31 . the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction ; there will be a murdering day for rebellious malignants , they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath . the hebr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we translate brought forth , signifies , cum mora & pompa deducere , mer. to lead them to it with delay , to bring them to it by degrees , and also with some pomp and splendour : but what is it they shall be brought forth to ? what are they going to with their pomp and glory ? oh 't is but to a day of wrath ; ad diem furorum , a day of wraths and fury ; a day majorum poenarum , of greater punishment . when the wrath of god for every sin shall consume them , and increase their deferred torments . sinners are brisk because judgment is delayed ; but alas , sinners , though you go on with security , yet far from safety , the day of wraths will come . ier. 12.1 . we read the wicked prosper ; why are they not stopt in their courses ? they take root , hebr. pergunt , they go on : non posuit deus prohibitionem : vatab. god doth not hinder them ; are they happy therefore ? will this always continue ? no , v. 3. they shall be pulled out like sheep to the slaughter , they are set apart for the day of destruction . when a day is set apart , some eminent thing is intended in it . when a day is set apart for destruction , an eminent destruction is implyed by it : a day is coming when sinners shall feel the smart of divine vengeance for abuses of patience . this is call'd their day , as deserved by them , as peculiar to them : psal. 37.10 . the lord knows their day is coming : chald. dies calamitatis ejus : the day of his signal and dreadful calamity is approaching ; and the longer this day is coming , the more horrible it will be . as eternal condemnation will be nothing the less for a present reprieve upon earth ; so temporal destruction will be nothing the more tolerable , for a patient toleration and continued delay before it comes . we are little aware what is coming upon us , now our dangers are a little over ; but whilst we are insensibly sinning after the expressions of unmerited favour , the bottles of wrath are filling , and the clouds of vengeance gathering ; and who knows but suddenly they may ease and unburden themselves in a deluge of ruine upon us an undaunted people ? will not the punishment of sins continued against light and love , distress and deliverance , so many years as we have enjoyed them , be of that nature that might make our hearts tremble to conceive it ? will not the vials of wrath be unspeakably full , and the storm of vengeance most horrible , which hath been so long in gathering ? sinning after deliverance , renders the destruction dreadful , as they make it in a peculiar manner our own . now destruction lyes at our own door , and our selves onely are to bear the blame of it . in mercy god begins first , but in miseries we make the beginning . and what can be a more dreadful aggravation , than to have cause to say , mercies are gone , god is departed , enemies prevail ? and what may we thank but our pride and profaneness , our ingratitude and ungodliness , after obliging mercies ? what makes up the endless and intolerable torments of damned souls , for ever banisht from the comfortable presence of the excellent glory , but this , that all that misery was procured by themselves ? 't is observed of some birds , that the lime is made of their own dung that is used to destroy them : the lime-twigs of gods judgments , are made of the dung of our own sins . our sins are the feathers , whereby ●he fatal darts of judgments fly unto us . propriis conficimur alis , wounded with our own weapons , with arrows made from our selves : we do ill unjustly , and then suffer ill deservedly . all the judgments that spring up , are but from seeds of our own sowing . the garment is ruin'd by the moth bred in ●t , and we by enemies of our own breeding . it was great aggravation to the misery of the iews , that god told them , ier. 4.18 . thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee . i have delivered you , rescued you from miseries , and these now coming on you , you pull down upon your selves . this is thy wickedness ; lay it not to enemies power , think not me unrighteous ; this is all thy own . how miserable a condition is this , to have no other comfort in calamities than this , to have god tell us this is our own ? how sad when distressed to think , this is my slighting of mercy , my abusing patience , my persistence in drunke●ness , sabbath-breaking , when i was delivered ! oh that i should be such an enemy to god and my self ! oh that i should bring such miseries on my self , by despising mercies ! nothing makes the condition of a people more hopeless , than their bringing themselves into a helpless condition . hos. 13.9 . oh israel , thou hast destroyed thy self : thou wondrest at thy destruction , when it is from thy self . but in me is thy help . learned drusius translates the hebr. ● alioquin ; that is , otherwise thou hadst bad help from me . had enemies ruined thee , i would have relieved thee ; but since thou hast involv'd thy self in misery , thou mayst expect no mercy from me . i will not be the author of deliverance to them , that are so wilfully authors of destruction to themselves : you shall perish in the evils of your own procuring . 3. destruction now will be greatly aggravated , because a people thus sinning , deserve to be exposed to the naked fury of incensed justice , without the least mitigation of their miseries by the interposing of abused mercy . if we with ungrateful carriages contemn the help of mercy , we justly deserve to be utterly forsaken and cast off by it . and now , oh how dreadful will it be to drink the cup of gods destroying fury , without any mixtures of relieving mercy ! if mercy it self delivers us up to the cruel hands of inexorable justice , what then shall we experience , but vengeance without clemency , punishment without pity , and destruction without delay ? oh how sad will it be for helpless creatures to lye under the displays of vengeance , and none to cover them ? to have innumerable iniquities crying for judgments , and none to plead for them ? to have invincible enemies opposing of them , and none to assist them ? if mercy be dis-engaged , however fiercely the storms of wrath may be pour'd out upon us , there can be no shelter from it . whatever wounds are made , there will be no salve to cure them . if merciful deliverances cannot prevail upon us to reform us , will not mercy cease pleading for us ? will it not say as christ , iohn 17.9 . i pray not for them ? i will put in no more intreaties for their salvation : justice , take them , destroy them , ruine them , i have nothing to plead for them . how often doth mercy plead , as the merciful vine-dresser did for the cumber-ground fig-tree , luke 13.7 , 8. lord , let it alone this year also : let not thy wrath yet break out , let not thy fury ruine them , but spare them this time ; try what they will do with one deliverance more ? but when nothing is successful , mercy gives over ; and what but intolerable vengeance will then lye upon us ? but who can speak the dread of destruction , that unmixed anger involves a people in ? how dreadful will it be to fall into the hands of god , when armed with nothing but destroying indignation ? how can our hearts endure , or our hands be strong , when all the attributes of his glorious majesty shall conspire together to make us miserable ? when infinite wisdom shall be exercised in contriving , and infinite power shall be engaged in executing the miserable destruction of a sinful people , it must needs be intolerable . here i shall take occasion to shew you the misery of a people , when mercy is dis-engaged from relieving of them ; that so we may be fearful of depriving our selves of that blessed succour we have hitherto enjoyed by it . 1. mercy dis-engaged , all miseries endured are pure wrath . such miseries are much of the nature of the torments of the damned in hell , whose plagues are a cup of vengeance without mixture . the happiness of saints in all their sufferings , consists in enjoying ingredients of love in the bitterest cup that is mixed out to them : when outward distresses are most unpleasing to sense , they refresh themselves with delightful objects , then visible to the eye of faith : psal. 94.19 . in the multitude of my thoughts , thy comforts delight my soul. but mercie dis-engag'd , there is no cordial to support us , no sugar to sweeten the bitterest cup enforced upon us : ezek. 7.5 . behold , an evil , an onely evil cometh . god never sends judgments alone to such as he favours ; but designing the utter destruction of a people , he mixes a potion of onely fatal poysons for them : then he sends an onely evil . 2. mercy being dis-engaged , the lowdest cries , and most importunate prayers that a people can put up , will be denyed and rejected . god will admit no prayers from such as contemned his former returns of them . the ears of justice will only hear the cries of our sins , to avenge them ; 't is mercy hears the voice of our prayers , to answer them ; or all the answer we shall have , will be by terrible things in righteousness . but mercy dis-engaged , we are deprived of that unspeakable privliedge of audience with god ; and then we may swelter in our miseries , roll in our blood , despair in our torments , without a redress . should we by our impudent continuance in sin , make mercy our enemy , our most urgent cries would prove unsuccesful ; and though joyned with floods of tears , would be unprofitable : for this will bring us under the doom of those , zech. 7.13 . because when i called you would not hearken , therefore also when you cry unto me i will not hear . how just a retaliation was this from god , although a most dreadful affliction ! not to have the merciful ear of god in affliction , is the worst of afflictions . it is dismal now to find our hearts so strangely shut up , as not be able to pour out prayers : but how miserable then shall we be , if when involved in sinking troubles , god should shut out our prayers , & not be prevailed with by them ? oh ruining state , when we in distress shall be crying , save lord , or we perish , and then receive no other return , but , perish you may , and perish you shall , for all the help you shall have from me . these sins so much overcome his mercy , that our prayers will never overcome his anger . and as it is an argument of the greatest sinfulness in man , not to pray ; so of the greatest anger in god , not to hear prayers . these iniquities are so intolerable a slighting of him , that he will unmercifully slight all we do . oh what will become of a nation , when that key which was wont to unlock the treasuries of bounty , the store-house of blessings , can do nothing ? when that embassador that was wont to prevail for a gracious treaty , shall be denyed ? when that successful friend shall be denyed admittance to the court of heaven ? when that omnipotent engine can attract no compassions ? whither now shall we go , when access is denyed to god ? where shall we have supplies , if our former store-house be shut up ? whither can we turn , when he turneth away our prayers ? will not our furious enemies prevail over us , when our most fervent prayers cannot prevail with god ? what a shaking commination was that , ier. 11.11 . i will bring an evil upon them , they shall not escape ; and though they cry , i will not hearken . god will take no notice of their cries , who would take no notice of his kindness . what can be said worse to a people than this , i will not hear ? if he will not hear , he will not help ; if he gives no audience , he will give no assistance . this speaks the sum of all evils in one . the root of all miseries lyes here , in gods not hearing . this effectually seals men up for destruction . ezech. 8.18 . i will deal with them in my fury ; and though they cry in my ears with a loud voice , i will not hear . as lazy prayers will not prevail now , so the loudest prayer shall not prevail then . thou maist then spend thy breath , that now thou spendest worse , and not speed . thou maist stretch out thy hands , and yet receive nothing : but disengaging mercy may suffer like those , isai. 1. when ye stretch out your hands , i will hide my eyes ; and when ye make many prayers , i will not hear . audire dei est concedere , i. e. i will not grant what you ask . in the days of my grace ye might have prevail'd , and did not pray , or did it formally ; and now in the day of my fury ye may pray , but shall not prevail . neither can the prayers of the greatest favourites in the court of heaven prevail for a people under such circumstances . should the dearest servants plead with greatest fervency , they must be denied when mercy is disengaged , ier. 15.1 . though moses and samuel stood before me , my heart could not be towards this people . standing is the posture of praying . though these should endeavour to draw out my affections to them by their importunate cries , yet they should never gain my heart : i cannot love them , i cannot yield it to them . tantum mediocriter malis ob pios interdum parcitur , non ita contumaciter flagitiosis . god only spares those that are indifferently wicked for the sake of the godly , not those that are obstinately flagitious and ungodly . ezech. 14. though noah , daniel , and job were here , &c. they should prevail only for their own souls . oh , says god , you think the cries of your prayer shall drown the voice of your sins ; you imagine your earnest calls will make my bowels yearn to you ; or if you cannot prevail alone , you will engage others : but i tell you , neither ye , nor my greatest friends that can most prevail , shall perswade me to spare so ungodly a people as you ; they and you shall not effect your desires with me so . 3. mercy disengag'd , the wrathful blows of divine vengeance will be ( to speak after the manner of men ) inflicted in a careless manner on a mercy-contemning people . the vine-dresser is most exact and curious in abscinding the luxuriant branches of a fruitful vine , but hacks and hews the unfruitful tree in a careless manner . thus the almighty god measures out and limits the judgments that are out of mercy to a fruitful people , to increase their fruit ; but regards not how he strikes a barren generation , that are only to be hewed down as cumber-ground trees . whilst tender affections remain in the heart of god to a people , he limits the proceeding of enemies , he restrains the rage of their foes ; he afflicts pondere & mensura , with weight and measure : but when justice only is exercised in judgment , the worst of times , the most fierce enemies , the most astonishing manner is chosen in afflicting . when we are regardless of a mans life , we say , let him eat , drink , do what he will , i will be no hinderance to him : thus mercy disobliged says , let enemies wound , massacre , slay whom and how they will , i shall not help , i will not hinder . god permits enemies to do their worst , to go as far as they can , when he designs the ruine of a people . the prophet prays , jer. 10.24 . lord , correct me , but with judgment , not in thine anger , lest thou bring me to nothing . in thy correction use moderation , for the anguish of thy anger is intolerable ; the blows of thy wrath alone will bring us to nothing . the fatherly anger of god is dreadful , but the fierceness of his anger is fatal . if god doth not moderate his anger , we can never sustain the dreadful terrour of it . 4. mercy disengag'd , we become under a total impossibility of receiving help from any means . if mercy that should stop miseries be taken away , miseries must needs flow in . whither shall the poor creature go , if mercy be gone ? if we resort to creatures for help , they all say , it is not in me : if god affords you no help , i cannot ; if god withdraws his merciful influence , i have no efficacy . psal. 3.8 . salvation belongs to god. 't is the honour of god , that he can easily save without any else , and that none else can save without him . however suitable means may be to relieve us , unless there be the harmonious conjunction of god with them , they prove ineffectual . creatures can never help us in distress , if mercy stands off . there is a counterpoising power to the ability of created agents , that may obstruct their success : there are unseen circumstances that may invalidate their attempts : there are intercurrent causes , and unprovided-for accidents , that may be unconquerable hinderances to their endeavours . the most suitable instruments voluntatem habent , non potestatem , have only an impotent velleity or will , but no effectual ability to help us . a nation deserted by mercy , is like a diseased , dying man , head a king , heart fainting , wits confounded , spirits consumed , given over by physicians , friends stand behind the curtains sobbing and sighing , weeping and bewailing ; willing to relieve , not able . thus 't is with a nation when mercy is disengag'd , 't is bleeding to death , gasping for life , its friends dejected , their hearts melted ; but dye it must , dye it will , none can help it . let men be never so sollicitous , most unspeakably industrious to help a perishing nation , they will be successless without mercy , for they are but media deferentia , non operantia , means of conveyance , not of efficience . mercy disengag'd , there can be no binding the hands of justice , no obstructing its fatal blows , no stopping the floods of vengeance , no perswading to spare , no prevailing to stay , no hindering its arrests , no opposing its violence ; but destruction will be unavoidable . the highest profession , the richest possessions , the strongest fortifications ; will be no security ; no shelter on earth , can secure from the vengeance of heaven . the united forces of all creatures , can no ways impede the actings of their sovereign creator . job 9.12 , 13. he taketh away , and none can hinder him . if god will not withhold his anger , the proud helpers must stoop under . however great the patrons of our cause may be , whatever allies may consociate with us , whatever assistants shall appear for us , yet they can never prosper to protect us , or succeed to deliver us from the hands of resolved justice . our helpers must have the assistance of god , or they cannot procure deliverance for us . had we thousands as strong as that world-bearing atlas , they could never uphold us : had we a world of confederates , they could never preserve us , if justice designs our ruine . the most potent friends can never deliver those , who have the omnipotent god to be their enemy . if mercy will not help us , we must needs be helpless . job 27.22 . god shall cast upon him , and not spare ; he would flee out of his hands . ●ugere cona●itur , sed non effugiet . he shall strive to get out of his hands , but shall not escape . neither policy , power , or prayer , can prevail with , or succeed against god , when not seconded with the aid of mercy . dan. 4.35 . there is none can stay his hand . none can deliver from the destroying hands of justice , but victorious mercy . what need then is there to be careful , that we disoblige not mercy ? what grateful carriage should we have under mercies , lest we make them our enemies ? and if mercy be once against us , all things will work against us . 5. destruction after deliverance will be exceedingly aggravated by that self-confounding desperation that will be in our souls , when god shall come out against us to vindicate the quarrel of abused mercies , to avenge the contempt of former deliverances . then we shall not only have god against us , but conscience also will direfully torment us : the reflecting on former deliverances , will cause as great terrour as present dangers . the very thoughts of contemn'd deliverances , will damp and destroy the confidence of the soul in renewed miseries . how can a man lift up his face before god to desire a mercy , that hath turn'd his back upon god when he obtain'd a mercy ? how can he go to god for fresh supplies of mercy , who getting a mercy , hath gone away from god ? when god hath lifted thee up from a low condition , and thou hast gone on in a wicked life , with what face canst thou look upon god again ? canst expect a good look , when thou lookest to him ? what canst expect but a denial from him , when thou hast denied obedience to him ? oh how will conscience fly on thy face , and check thy soul ! remember when you were in distress before , thou didst cry to god , and he delivered thee ; but thou never didst love him the more , serve him the better for it . then wilt thou imagine with thy self , oh how can i go to god again ! how can i think he will try me with further mercies , who have been so unfaithful under those i received ? how can i expect he will be prevail'd with to prolong my life , when i have heapt up provocations , after his former prolongations of it ? oh what heart-faintings and failings will a sense of despised mercy produce ! what a hell of misery will this be to all thy torments , that thou durst not approach to god ? will not inward troubles be a dreadful increase of distress in times of judgment ? and what inward trouble more heavy than this , to finde our hearts condemning of us , and to be clogg'd with the sense of abused mercies ? wilt thou not fear god will tell thee , thy prayer is an abomination ? wilt not dread lest he say , as iephthah to the elders of gilead , after they had expell'd him , judg. 11.7 . are ye now come unto me , when ye are in distress ? what , are you so impudent after all your unkindness to me , to seek kindness from me ? what , do ye think i will shelter such enemies as you ? will not god say thus to us , when fleeing to him in distress ? what , do ye that have forsaken me so long , flee to me now ? do ye that despised my former deliverance , come to me for another ? will not god say , be gone , i 'll admit you no more , i 'll hearken neither to your prayers nor promises ? and then we may cry out as salv. quid dignius , quid justius ? non audivimus , non audimur ; non respeximus , non respicimur . what more merited , what more just ? we have not heard god , and we are not heard ; we have not regarded , and we are not regarded . what confusion will this fill our faces withal ? what a calamity will this be to all our misery ? oh take heed then of incurring any further displeasure from god , by abusing deliverance ; lest when renewed dangers come upon you , thy mouth should be stopt , thy confidence dampt , and thy conscience thus checking of thee . but put iniquity far from thee , and then shalt thou lift up thy face without spot ; then shalt thou have access to the lord in thy troubles : and if destruction should come , thou maist cry for deliverance , and have gracious returns . destruction for sinning under these circumstances , will be aggravated by that pitiless frame that shall be not only in god , but in man , to those that are involv'd in such deserved destruction . god will not pity , but be strangely hard-hearted to such hardened sinners . misery calls for pity ; but there can be no pity , where there is no mercy , or where mercy is disengaged : ezech. 5.11 . neither shall my eye spare , neither will i have pity . he laid aside his tender compassions ; his bowels of mercy were shut up , and now he hath no tender affections to them . thus men also that may be preserved from our calamities , will have just cause to be pitiless to us . it was said of vitellius , when going to execution , with his hands bound , divested on robes , that men had no pity of him , nam deformitas vitae misericordiam abstulerat , tacitus . the impiety of his life , had taken away mens pity for his death . will not our sinning after deliverance give such cause of abstaining from pitying of us ? will not men say , they deserve to be miserable , that will not desist from being sinful . oh dreadful aggravation of misery , to have all bowels shut against us ! extrema est miseria , cùm nemo miseri vices dolet . 't is extreme misery , the height of distress , when we are not only destitute of help , but destitute of pity . jer. 22.18 . shall not say , ah , my brother , or ah , my sister : they ●hall not lament for him , saying , ah , lord , ●● ah , his glory . i shall now endeavour to make some particular vses of what hath been spoken . vses from the 1. propos. vse i. is it the great designe of god in delivering a people from imminent dangers , to oblige them to break off sin ? let then the remarkable deliverance that the almighty god in abounding goodness hath lately bestowed upon us , effect this blessed change in our lives and conversations . with what face can we trample on the just and sacred commands of our merciful god , whilst he smiles upon us with such unmerited favours ? can our hearts be so damnably obdurate , so insensibly hardned , as not to be melted by such an unexpected deliverance as this ? should we again break his commandments ? what pretence can favour such impieties ? what profession can cloak such wickedness ? what allurements can entice us against conscience , reason , and religion , to obviate and oppose the righteous requests and demands of such a patient god ? should we again return to our flesh-pleasing security in sin , the fountain and spring of our greatest misery ? what but our belluine and besotting stupidity involved us in our direful dangers ? and shall we return to our former posture , not regarding the rousing alarums the late discoveries of misery have sounded to us , nor minding the awakening calls to prepare for judgments , or turn from the impieties that deserve them ? would not this be an unpardonable crime , and a means most infallibly to ruine us ? should we again dishonour this delivering god , by profane , licentious courses ? filling our land with the hateful noise of our crying iniquities , when god hath fill'd it with the blessed sounds of unspeakable mercies ? what an unworthy , ungrateful , unanswerable carriage would this be deem'd by all that bear the title of christians ? would heathens offer to do such things to their feigned gods , or offer such affronts unto them , could they but do such favours for them ? and shall we , to affront the majesty of heaven , belch out abominable oaths , and account them as pleasing ornaments of language ? shall we shew our despite to our god , by blasphemous expressions against inviolable truths concerning the nature and being of god ? shall we , to express how little we value his kindness , provoke the eyes of his glory by noon-day drunkenness , rioting , and debaucheries ? shall we witness a cursed contemning of him by impudent profanations of his holy sabbaths , as before we have done ? shall not his kindness courting us to amendment , prevail ? shall not his goodness endeavouring our betterment , operate upon us ? is it not impossible to be so wicked , after such wonderful expressions of love ? should we again with greedy minds pursue the perishing enjoyments of this alluring world , neglecting the profitable exercises of religion , and required devotion ? did the almighty prolong our expiring lives , to spend them thus ? with what conscience can we allow our selves those large dispensations from holy duties , for the sake of our worldly employments , after we are purposely deliver'd , to augment and increase our deserved obedience ? will not our days be yet shortned , if we remain so straitned in duties still ? and if we cannot spare a little of our strength to work for god , can we think that god will improve his mighty strength , to work out any further salvation for us ? if our houses that might have been without people , still remain without prayer , may we not expect an angry god will soon unpeople them ? if now we shall cast off duty , will he not suddenly cast off us ? should we again be rending and tearing one another by ravenous oppression ? and ruining one another by unhappy divisions ? should not this wonderful love excite such bowels in our softned hearts to one another , that we should no longer be maintaining with unreasonable rigidness one anothers assumed opinions , to the unspeakable prejudice of church and state ? but rather be sodering together into a perpetual harmony , by mutual condescensions and compliances ; thereby ending our unprofitable janglings in indissolvible unity . shall not we , who have partaken of this favour together , live always together in the beauty and glory of undissembled friendship , and unfeigned love ? and if this effect shall not follow our being delivered together , 't is to be feared , the effect of such disorders will be no other than to be destroyed and cut off together . oh then let the kindness of god to us , sweeten our tempers to one another ; and let us be so fully united together , that all our affections may make but one channel of love , that so the god of love may dwell among us . for as this sincere adherence to one another by love , would be most effectual to prevent the designs of enemies against us ; ( who delight to see and sow our divisions ) so it would be so grateful an improvement of d●liverance , that god would more readily continue it to us . what then remains ? but that we should lay aside pride and prejudice , and self-designings ; and standing to the compleat and unalterable rules of worship , and principles of religion , laid down in the blessed word , henceforth ( i say we should ) dwell in most beautiful unity , and worship our god as far as can be , in a most desirable uniformity . should we again become formal and hypocritical in our solemn worship of the great god ? were this a suitable return for gods delivering , to mock him with dissembling services , and weary him with heartless offerings ? are ordinances continued , and the glorious sun●●ine of the blessed gospel preserv'd un●louded ; and shall we requite the lord ●o otherwise , than by profaning and busing of them ? oh the price we should set , the value we should have of our ordinances ! what are these but the wells of salvation , the conduits of grace , the ensignes of eternal glory , the food of immortal souls , the pledges and models of eternal loves , the blessed mounts of glory ; in which are the clearest resemblances of heaven , the sweetest refreshments on earth , the most lively stamps of divine majesty , and the most blessed appearances and comfortable visits of christ ? and can we contemn such enjoyments , without abominable ingratitude ? are they given to us by a new deliverance ? let us shew our esteem by a new improvement . never be so backward to attend them , so careless under them , so unanswerable to them hereafter . let god see that his kindness is not lost , his cost is not in vain , but that you endeavour a faithful return to what he doth for you . but into what a large field am i entring ? let all sins be reformed , let all holiness be embraced ; be universal in reformation of known sins , though i cannot be particular in the enumeration of them ; minde every particular duty , though i can name them but universally ; let the love of god in delivering , constrain you : and that the deliverance may have greater influence upon you , i shall lay down before you in a few particulars the greatness of it . 1. the greatness of our deliverance is manifest and apparent from the consideration of the enemies from whose hands an almighty power hath rescued us . the managers of the designs for our ruines , are the race of murdering cain , the bloudy off-spring of devouring cannibals ; whose monstrous cruelties are divulg'd in every corner of the world , recorded in innumerable histories ; experienc'd in many nations , known in germany , felt in paris , found in ireland ; and we are wofully acquainted with them in england . the most barbarous inhabitants of the world can't parallel their inhumane massacres : the most desperate wretches in hell can't exceed their practis'd cruelties . these hell-bred salamanders delight onely in ruining fires ; these patrisating children of the grand murderer , love no drink like the fulsome liquor of innocents bloud ; these apostates from humane nature , can solace themselves with no pleasures like the tormenting butcherings of harmless saints . how cruel are their tender mercies ! how savage is their sweetest carriage to those that submit not to that burdensome yoak that neither we nor our fathers could bear ! what love can answer the kindness of our god in giving escapes from these merciless lions , from these pictures of malicious satan , and fire-breathing dragons of the infernal pit ? can we do less than make our selves compleat holocausts by the flames of ascending affections , to our gracious god , who hath delivered us from being sacrifices to these most cruel beasts of prey ? had not these men been thus degenerated from merciful humanity into belluine ferocity , they could never have attempted the confusion and ruine of such innocent unmeriting a people as we . but these empty pretenders to christianity could never have accomplish'd their sincere designes of destroying us , had they not impudently laid the ground of all this wickedness with the orient colour of specious religion ; and so preserv'd deluded souls from the disturbing flashes of unstupifi'd conscience . but the principles of their avowed religion warranting its patrons in such impieties , and defending such damnable courses , hath animated their cruel minds with mighty expectations of renowning merit by such bloudy exploits . thus they transforming themselves into angels of light , have seduced a blinded multitude , and by this powerful engine have gain'd innumerable allies to promote a designe most diametrically opposite to reason and true religion . thus religion is us'd to destroy the religious ; and policy cloathing it self with the title of piety , insinuates unspeakable vigour into infatuated mortals in the pursuit of gainful designes through greatest difficulties . and had not the almighty discountenanced such religion by blasting designes promoted by it , their religion had brought our ruine , and the shadow of religion had consumed the substance of it . now what favour have we found with god , that he should disappoint a contrivance manag'd by those who had gain'd in so many confederates by the deluding pretences of religion ? which is also to make its seduced zelots do more than the greatest allurements imaginable . hence were the wonderful incitements to that unwearied industry now visible among them , to confound and destroy us . some drops of their bloud they could undauntedly part with , that they might drink some draughts of ours . what charges could seem too burdensom to them , to discharge the world of such hereticks as we are accounted by them ? how were their breasts like threatning thunder-clouds , whose vapours never leave working till they vent themselves with amasing terrour to the trembling world ? how have their heads , hearts , and hands , been willing , contriving , preparing for many years ? how have they been , as is said of the princes of israel , ezek. 22.6 . every one to their power to shed bloud ? no harmony , no help , no hearts , no hands , no power , no purse was a long while wanting in attempting this murdering atchievement . what greater deliverance was ever bestowed on a people than this , when all the forces of hell and ro●e with its allies , are defeated ? how might i make this appear from the wonderful height of power they were by all their endeavours arrived at : from the greatness of the danger , as most wickedly kept secret by means of inviolable obligations and oaths , which laid those that were conscious to it , under the greatest incapacity of revealing of it : from the familiar converse our fatal enemies had among us : from the abominable engagings of rotten members to destroy the body they belong'd to , and cut off the head that was over them : from assistances forreign enemies provided and promised against us ! but what hath been spoken , sufficiently speaks the greatn●ss of our deliverance , with respect to the persons contriving our destruction . 2. it appears from the consideration of that miserable destruction we were appointed unto , all these subtile heads and bloudy hands are not at work to accomplish a petty destruction . their throats , enlarg'd as hell , would never be satisfied with personal revenge ; no less than a nation , yea , nations of protestants , can make up a single meal for these savage bloud-hounds . these tyrannical nero's are for the cutting off the necks of all christians at a blow . no less bonefire would serve their turns , than the horrid conflagration of a whole nation . a dioclesian persecution was nothing to this hellish enterprize and attempted destruction . how fain would antichrist have waded to an usurped throne to the neck in the bloud of opposing martyrs ! had it not been a destruction none like unto it ? had not rome out-done its former cruelties ? had not this dreadful day been a none-such ? come , and see . what should you have seen ? had this designe been perfected , you had seen or heard , if alive , innumerable troops of frightful warriors , fierce in countenance , more in carriage , breaking forth , like the plunderers of troy from that fatal horse , from the bowels of our land : you had seen the disguising vizards of dissembling friends thrown off , and the distinguishing mark of the beasts company , worn by thousands of our unsuspected inhabitants : you might have seen the multitude of profane ones turn popish , and the neutralists become absolute papists : you might have seen an astonishing force of forreign idolaters admitted to enter our english coasts by the treacherous hands of mercenary subjects : you might have seen the horrid instruments of undreaded death brought from their unsearched hoards , ready to be prov'd on thy own body . ah , dreadful day , none like it ! when those unthought-of enemies had shewn themselves in warlike postures , arm'd with invincible power , wing'd with speedy fury , resolv'd with undaunted courage , assisted with large auxiliaries ; what then had been the work ? come and see . then had the streets been dy'd with a sea of crimson-bloud , the channels ran down with the lives of massacred christians : then had our bolted doors in nocturnal silence been forcibly open'd , and our sleepy bodies drag'd from their resting beds , and butcher'd by cruel hands : then had our mangled carcasses been strew'd in our peaceless streets , to be trampled on like dirt by our foes : then had our weapons , prepar'd for our defence , been murdering pieces for our enemies service : then had there been some fleeing in amaze , some fighting in confusion , some turning out of fear , some tortur'd for not turning . oh , black and gloomy day ! then had our stately buildings become a prey to the fiercest of elements , as well as we to the fiercest of men : then had the desire of our eyes been taken away with a blow , we our selves not escaping : then had the noise of bitter lamentation , though nothing prevailing , been heard in our streets ; the shrieks of the wounded piercing our hearts , the sight of the dead amazing our spirits . oh , what had they done ? come and see . how had the places of shelter been places of greatest dangers ! how had it been in vain for unarmed men to oppose a furious crue of well-equipag'd souldiers ! how fruitless had it been to flee , when dangers were unknown ! how sad had it been to behold tender infants rent from the bodies of their rifled mothers , and cast into their flames ! who could have endur'd the sight of sucking-babes snatch'd from their mothers breasts and dash'd against destroying stones ? who could have seen them sprawling on the tops of pikes and hurl'd into cruel flames , without bleeding hearts ? oh the gastly visages of the once most beautiful objects , that then had been mar'd with deforming wounds ! oh what a deliverance is this , to be thus far freed , to be thus long delivered from such a destruction ! oh let this mercy obtain its designe , lest the things we have feared should come upon us . 3. the greatness of this deliverance will appear on the consideration of the condition we were in , who were design'd to be destroyed . consider we but the daring provocations we have given the almighty to forsake us , it appears a mirrour of mercy that he should spare us . might he not justly have said , now will i ease me of my adversaries , and avenge me on my enemies : now will i make known the dread of my unregarded wrath , for their impenitent sinning : now will i shew how bitter a thing it is to abuse my patience by rebellion , and my goodness by offending ? but now behold , his bowels wrought in him ; he delivered us rebels , rescued us sinful wretches : and who can but lay to heart this mercy ? how helpless had we been in such a dismal surprizal ? the mighty men would not have found their hands , the valiant would have lost their couragious hearts , and we should have been but magor missabibs , terrour round about . but the misery of our condition had lain in our unreadiness to have encoun●●ed the king of terrours , to have follow'd that amazing messenger to the dreadful tribunal of the eternal god. how unfit had we been to die at a moments warning ? how miserable had thousands been to whom all space of repenting had been ended , whose present misery had been the beginning of eternal torments , whose unprepared souls had been sent to the place prepar'd for the devil and his angels ? oh then that now we could lay to heart these riches of grace that continues a preparing space : patientia poenitentiae expectatrix : his patience expects repentance . let not our prolonged days be spent in provoking him any longer ; let us not now be treasuring up wrath to the day of wrath . i might shew you the greatness of this deliverance , by the nearness of the destruction ; it was in articulo mortis , all was almost concluded , our passing-bell rung , the day was presum'd to be their own , and now delivered , as daniel , è faucibus perditionis , from the very jaws of destruction , from the very mouths of our enemies . oh wonderful goodness ! and most fitly might i mention the means of our deliverance . vna eadémque manus vulnus opémque feret . how did this sweetest honey come from the lions carcass ? men of their own party must impart it to us ; those of their own conclave are means , under god , to deliver us from their own counsels . oh the wonderful authority of god , that wrought on their consciences so long benum'd ! oh the wisdom of god , that works by contrary means ! no violence constrained them , but what the almighty used with them ; no policy induced them , so much as divine power . vse 2. is it the designe of god in delivering , to reduce from sin , and oblige to holiness ? let us then examine our selves , whether we have answer'd these holy designs of our gracious god. oh reader , faithfully ask thine own heart , have i not been as loose and profane , as vile and vain , as carnal and formal as ever i was before ? what inducement hath this gracious preservation been to the reformation of my life ? what sin have i faithfully forsaken ? what displeasing lust have i unfeignedly left ? what spiritual obedience have i closed withal , since i enjoyed this unspeakable mercy ? doth not thy conscience accuse thee of thy regardlesness of it ? doth not thy heart smite thee , for not observing the duties thou art oblig'd to by it ? abasuerus would know what was done to mordecai , for the good deed he had done for the kingdom . ask thy self , what good hath been done to god for all the good deeds he hath done for thee ? what hath been done to him for his delivering of thee ? hast thou not sinned the more against him , and turn'd his grace into wantonness ? is that a meet requital for his kindness ? are pride , drunkenness , sensuality , fit votive tables for our merciful escapes ? oh let not this mercy be lost for want of improvement , lest you never enjoy such another . remember , exoneratio supplicii est oneratio officii ; the laying off and freeing thee from punishment , lays obligations upon thee for dutiful obedience . mercies are to be like showers on valleys , making them fruitful ; as a grain of corn sown in the tilled earth , bringing forth a plentiful crop of expected fruit . god hath sown the seeds of his mercies , let not the devil reap a crop of sin. oh how might i plead with you , as loving ionathan with hard-hearted saul , 1 sam. 19.4 . let not the king sin against david , for he hath not sinned against thee ; and because his works are good . oh let not us sin against god ; let us not rebel against him ; he never dealt unjustly with us , but his deeds are good . he is ever working for us . he is ever heaping up mercies , shall we sin against him ? it will be better not to receive a mercy , than not to be better'd by it . oh come now and consider with your selves , say with thy self , hath god in his providence made me a freeman from popish slavery , and shall i make my self a slave to lusts , and a vassal to the devil ? shall god continue my life , and shall i cast it away as worth nothing ? oh examine your selves how you have acted . plato , seeing any disorderly , would say , num ego talis ? am i such an one ? thou seest many go on in sin , ask thy self , am not i such an one ? do not i go on in sin ? what a folly is it in us , that we utimur perspicillis plusquam speculis , use spectables to see other faults , more than looking-glasses to see our own ? learn the art of self-reflection , and that is the way to self-reformation . vse 3. is it gods design and desire to reduce us from sin by these merciful methods ? then let us not foolishly cause the lord to use more forcible and fearful means , to effect this in us . let us not force a gracious god out of his delightful ways of mercy . why should we make him be doing his works of judgment , since he declares his unwillingness to it ? shall we turn his scepter into a rod ? shall we drive away those precious mercies by sinful courses , which , with mournful hearts and wringing hands , we shall be glad to be recalling ? shall we make our showers of mercy end in flouds of vengeance ? shall we wrest the sword of justice out of the sheath of patience , and violently pull down vengeance on our own heads ? will you tell the lord , you are weary of his mercies , and will never regard them ? will you declare in the presence of god , that if he will not powre out his vengeance , and display his justice , and make your plagues wonderful , that you will not fear him , nor break off sins ? is your strength so great to stand before his anger , that you are resolute in provoking of him ? will nothing serve your turn but destruction , and desolation , and undoing judgements ? you must either cease sinning , or god will cease waiting , and give over favouring of you . god speaks , ezech. 6.9 . how the jews had broken him with their whorish heart ; that is , he tells them , they should remember eum quasi objecta quadam violentiâ à proposite abductum , & invitum planè adductum essë eorum persidia ut interrumperetur cursus misericordiae , calv. that he was turn'd from his gracious purposes , with the violence their sins offered to him ; and that it was by their perfidiousness he was brought to break off the course of his mercies . thus god is broken off from ways of mercy , by our not breaking off our ways of sin . the holy god is resolv'd to make us leave off sinning one way or other : if his goodness cannot gain us , if his mercies cannot induce us , his justice will come out against us , and by his mighty power he will rule us . ezek. 20.33 . as i live , saith the lord , surely with a mighty hand , and an out-stretched arm , and with fury poured out , will i rule over you . god will bring us into subjection by mercies or judgments ; his fury shall do that his favour will not . but why should we cause the lord to be so severe unto us ? we weary man , but will ye weary god also ? let us be constrained to amendment by his love , or else he must curb us by tormenting punishments . it was said of israel , psal. 81.11 . israel would have none of me . shall it be so said of england , that we refus'd and slighted what god gives , and what he doth in way of mercy ? shall it be said we will have none of his mercies , none of his deliverances ? shall we not then have his judgments , and feel his vengeance ? vse 4. is this the designe of god in delivering ? then wisely make use of this as an argument to invalidate all future temptations to sin . when sinful occasions offer themselves unto you , damp the hurtful influence of them by objecting to thy self the unreasonableness of sinning , after such mercies confer'd upon thee . thus ioseph did invalidate the eager assaults of his wicked mistriss , gen. 39.9 . how can i do this great wickedness , and sin against god ? he did not rashly admit the temptation , but consulted conscience , and repel'd it with this weighty argument : how can i sin against a god that hath of late been so favourable to me , hath delivered me from death , and advanced me to honour ? oh i cannot slight so much kindness , to please a sinful humour : i will never do it . when then thou meetest with allurements to sin , take to thy self this corroborating disswasive from it , and couragiously oppose all unworthy motions to rebellion by pondering on it . inferences from the second proposition concerning our proneness to sin after deliverances . 1. hence we see the absolute necessity that there is of divine power , to render any means effectual to bring us from sin . however probable means may be to effect this end , they are not powerful enough without the cooperation of an almighty arm superadded to them . if rational arguments were sufficient , such as are drawn from infinite mercy might be enough to charm our wills to a loyal obedience to our god ; but we see that outward mercies , not conferring inward grace , cannot accomplish such difficult work . the chiefest engine that draws the heart of man from sin , is mercy ; but 't is the arm of god must fasten it to the heart of man , and divine power that can only attract him by it . mercies are only cords , which divine power uses to draw men from sin . if moral perswasions were so wonderfully effectual in converting sinners , as some would have them , it is strange men cannot overcome themselves to forsake their sins , by the consideration of the merciful preservations , and gracious deliverances the almighty bestows upon them : strange it is men cannot be perswaded to cease provoking god to judgements , by the declaring his unwillingness to them by the experiences of deliverances from them . but how do we experience the ineffectualness of outward mercies , whatever valid motives may be drawn from them ! what need then is there to apply our selves most frequently to the throne of grace , for heavenly influences on earthly blessings ? how should we earnestly crave the concurrence of god's omnipotency , for the bettering of us by the confluence of mercies bestowed upon us ? isai. 48.17 . the lord teaches to profit . in the greatest abundance of means and mercies , we shall have no profit , without the aids and assistance of god ; he must teach us to improve deliverances , to gain by his goodness . when cords of mercy are put into our hands , let us lift up out hearts to the father of mercies , and cry , draw us , and we will follow thee . when mercies are sown like precious seeds most plentifully amongst us , let us implore the showers of divine blessing to make us fruitful by them . when such invaluable talents are put into our hands , let us seek to the almighty for strength to work with them . plead with the lord to deliver thee from sin , by his deliverances ; to give thee the incomes of his grace , to improve thy life miraculously continued to thee . leave not the throne of grace , till grace is given thee to leave thy sins : cease not to importune the almighties help against thy sins , till he hath delivered thee from them , as he hath done from thine enemies . acknowledge thine own weakness , and so thou wilt engage the strength of god : tell him with holy boldness , that now he hath given thee his mercies , thou canst not be content without his blessing with them . let temporal deliverance edge thy appetite after spiritual and eternal . thou hast but half a mercy , till thy soul is better'd by a deliverance , whether it be from enemies , or sickness , or any other distress or danger . 2. are we so prone to sin after deliverance ? then hence be warned to be very watchful upon the enjoyment of such a mercy . oh that we , who enjoy so eminent escapes from danger , might use our greatest industry to prevent our proceeding in sin ! let us fortifie our selves against such an evil practice . make conscience of what you do in a delivered condition . let us no longer carelesly run on in our sins , but seriously consider the inducements we have to a holy life . now in order to prevent our proceeding in sin , admit this serious counsel , and observe these directions : 1. make frequent reflections on the great deliverance in part bestowed upon us . when the creator of the ends of the earth survey'd his glorious works , he saw they were good , and delighted in them ; and he greatly delights that we should be frquent in meditations of his glorious works of creation and providence , and live in perpetual admirings of them , applauding the shines of his power , wisdome , and mercy in them . the least of gods works deserve the admiration of the greatest angel in heaven . inconsiderate persons gain little advantage by the most considerable mercies . were our hearts more thankful , we should make a particular computation and exact chronology of dayly and yearly mercies . the forgetfulness of mercy is the ground of our forsaking god after them . 't is mighty effectual to ballast our hearts against our impetuous inclinations to sin , to be much in considering what god hath done for us . hence the people of israel were admonished to be frequent in reviewing their sad condition in egyptian bondage , with the blessed escape given them from it . deut. 26.1 , 2.5 , &c. when thou art come into the land — thou shalt speak and say , a syrian ready to p●rish was my father , and he went down into egypt , and became there a great nation , — and the egyptians intreated us ill , — and the lord brought us forth out of egypt with a mighty hand , and out-stretched arm , and with great terribleness , &c. thus they were to make a frequent commemoration of their miserable state , and merciful escape . in like manner it were necessary for us to look back on what we lately were , and say , a little while since i was at the gates of death , by the subtile contrivances of popish enemies ; a little time past i had near been devoured by the jaws of those preying lions : some few months are past since the nation was in danger of being involv'd in incomparable miseries ; it hath almost been made a stage for the acting a bloudy tragedy , an altar on which had been sacrificed innumerable precious lives , a prey to roman fury ; and now behold ( blessed be the lord ) the scene is changed , the curtains of secrecy that covered the nasty vault of popish conspirators , is happily drawn aside ; the god of our lives , by his over-awing majesty , hath influenced the hearts of enemies to detect the snare they once did endeavour to lay . should we not then argue , should i that was so lately in such danger of losing my precious life , now squander it away as a contemptible thing ? should i thus lately experiencing mercy from god , manifest my self by wicked courses to be a rebellious enemy to him ? should not the thoughts of the death , danger , and miserable calamity god hath brought me from , bring me unfeignedly to love him , and constantly to yield obedience to him ? let us therefore , to prevent proceeding in sin , reflect on the kindness of god : seriously think how miserable thou hadst been without the deliverance . oh miserable state , had it not come ! enemies raging , if not reigning ; gospel corrupted , if not removed ; lives endanger'd , if not destroyed . how had we been fleeing on mountains , hiding in dens , or burning in flames , tortur'd with racks ! how had we been without bread to eat , houses to lodge in , or else all robbed by those pilf●ring papists , if not burnt by their horrid malice , which is enough to put the whole universe into miserable conflagrations ! how should we meditate how seasonably deliverance came ! we helpless , careless , and ignorant , then was it that his mighty arm brought a blessed salvation to us . behold , how unworthy we were of such a mercy , of such a deliverance ! a sinful rebellious people , for us to partake of so much favour , is the greatest mirrour in the world . now can we forget this goodness ? if we have no memories to retain mercies , we soon may have no mercies to retain in memory . or can we sin in the sight of such kindness ? we shall never see such a glorious deliverance , if we sin in the face of this . oh let us often say as those , numb . 23.22 . what hath the lord wrought among us ! oh what a glorious work was this , embroider'd with mercy , set forth with the shines of wisdome , and illustrious by the impressions of infinite power ! oh forget not this work ! if we forget deliverances , god may forget to deliver : isai. 17.10 , 11 , they were made desolate for forgetting the god of their salvation . 't is known that the breasts that afford the sweetest milk , will dry up , if not drawn ; the breasts of mercy will be certainly dryed up , if no benefit be drawn from them by a serious remembrance , and faithful improving of them . prayers and tears are the best means to obtain mercies , and a thankful remembrance will be the best way to have them continued to us . 2. to prevent thy proceeding in sin , think with thy self what promises and obligations , what pleas and arguments you would have made to the lord , and urged him with , to have induced him to have given such a deliverance as this . would you not have promised , that if it should please him to exercise his power in saving of you , you would engage , that to the utmost of your power you would serve him ? oh what great obligations would you willingly have laid your selves under , to be freed from so dreadful a destruction as you were appointed to ? what obedience , service , love , and respects , do sinners vow to god on a bed of sickness , languishing to death ? what would we have promis'd then , when no less than a whole nation was languishing , and every enjoyment ready to give up the ghost ? oh what solemn engagements to all possible obedience would then have been made ! would you have promised these things , and will you not perform them ? let the readiness of god to do it without these engagements , make you more ready to do those things than if you had engaged to do them . consider also what pleas thou wouldst have used with god to spare thee ; think what arguments might have prevailed with him to deliver thee ; and let them prevail with thee to forsake sin . thou wouldst not have said , lord ▪ spare me to go on a while longer in rebellion against thee ; cut me not off till i have dishonoured thy glorious name a little more ; give me my life to be a drunkard , swearer , lyar , sabbath-breaker , yet a while longer . thou couldst never have the impudence to plead thus , thou couldst never imagine these arguments could prevail ; therefore use the considerations of arguments which thou thinkest would prevail to curb thy heart from sin , as thou thinkest would have been proper to prevail with god to deliver thee . and what are those ? oh spare me , that i may prepare for death ! oh give me space , that i may repent of my sins , and reform ! and let thy carriage be such now in part delivered , as may answer such motives as these , which would have been used with god to deliver thee . 3. consider how thou wouldst carry to man , if receiving a thousand times smaller kindnesses from him . oh the thanks that shall be return'd to man for a small favour ! what readiness to do for man , when doing for us ? should a man but save us from perishing , how grateful , how serviceable should we become unto him ? and shall kindness from sinful creatures make such impressions on our hearts , and the abounding goodness of the glorious god be disregarded ? we love man loving of us , and shall we not love a loving god ? we devote our selves to the service of our earthly benefactors , and shall we be so devilish as to deny obedience to the great god , under all his benignity to us ? shall god have worse dealings from us than men ? wouldst thou not offend an earthly friend , and wilt thou offend a heavenly friend ? wilt make nothing of displeasing god , when he gives thee such mercies as all the men on earth cannot bestow upon thee ? oh let but this be considered , and surely thou canst not persist in sin . vse 5. see here the unconquerable stubbornness of mans heart . oh how do our hearts stand out against god under all his dealings with us ! we are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an unperswadable generation . oh wonderful obstinacy , that the sweetest melody of mercy cannot charm us ! oh what hardned souls are in us , when the pleasant distillations of showers of mercy upon us , cannot soften us ! oh what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , strong holds , have sin , that the cords of mercy can't draw us from them ! oh how hard is it to gain a victory over corrupted nature and accustomed sins ! oh strange affections that we have to sin , that the strongest engagements can't bring us from it ! such is the stubbornness of unchanged souls , that whether god walks in ways of mercy , or paths of judgment , they will go contrary to him . oh the hardness to be lamented , that appears among us ! though the almighty hath done thus much for us , we have not to this day been duly affected with what he hath done . we have gone on frowardly , when god hath dealt most kindly by us : we go on to provoke the eyes of his glory , when he hath made so much of his glorious goodness pass before us . oh stubborn souls , that will not regard the melting kindness of god! but do as it were resolve , whatever god doth , they will sin against him . though he seek reconciliation , they will follow rebellion : though he strives to out-do their rebellion with mercy , they will not lay down their arms , but be avenged on his many mercies . inferences from the third proposition concerning the hainousness of sin after deliverance . 1. is sinning after deliverance such hainous sinning ? behold then what crying sins are to be seen amongst us ! have we not sins of the greatest magnitude , who have mercies of the highest nature ? are not our sins worse than sodoms , when our mercies are abundantly more than that enjoyed ? sins in england , are greater than sins in other nations , that have not partaken of such signal favours as we . we wonder god bears with antichristian rome , with forreign idolaters ; alas , their sins are not of that nature that ours are . our sins it may be are minoris infamiae , of lesser infamy , but majoris reatus , of greater guilt than theirs . our sins are double ; and the more our mercies increase , the more abundant aggravations belong to our sins . are we not sinners above all , that have favours beyond any ? our sins that are small in abstracto , considered abstractly , are great in concreto , considering the circumstances of them . if small sins will not startle us , here are great sins then to amaze us . oh let our sins that we have committed be more before us , that so the sense of their greatness may prevent our proceeding in them ! 2. hence see what need we have of great repentance ; an ordinary sorrow will not answer our extraordinary sins . gravissima peccata gravissimis lamentis indigent . greatest provocations call for greatest lamentations . oh what tears and lamentations can be great enough for our horrid sins ? what sighs can be deep enough for a nation so deeply involved in sin ? should not our mourning be as in the mourning of hadadrimmon , in the valley of megiddon , every family apart , every person apart ? should not ninive be our president ? should not our england become a bokim , and our island be overflown with tears ? oh what floods of tears is there need of , to wash away our abominable pollutions ! oh what wailing and weeping should be in a nation living and wallowing in such iniquities ? aut poenitendum vel pereundum . repentance onely can prevent our ruine ; repentance onely can make justice to retreat ; repentance onely can deliver us now delivered : but where shall we finde it ? where are the weeping eyes , the mourning hearts ? oh that repentance might appear among us , lest judgments appear against us ! oh that we could lay our selves down at the feet of mercy by humiliation , that we may not be laid down in a dreadful desolation , by the hands of justice ! oh that a hearty repentance might prevent our hastening ruine ! oh that we might lie in breathing sweats of godly sorrow , that we may not lie sweltring in our blood ! our sins reach up to heaven , let our sorrow reach to heart . oh that each part of unfeigned repentance might be really acted by us ! let us make a strict inquiry into our fins , commune with our hearts ; let us go the circuit of our hearts and lives , and see the abominable sins to be condemned there . let us read the book of conscience , and see what sins we there stand indicted for . as letters wrote with the juice of oranges , are not to be read but by the fire ; thus some have their sins written , and will not read them now ; but shall at last read them by the fire of hell. lam. 3.40 . let us search and try our ways . oh we are senseless of our sins ; but aeger non sentiens periculosius laborat ; a senseless sick man is most in danger . oh open your eyes then , and see what disorders in heart , what wickedness in life ! refuse not a sight of thy sins now ; one day god will set them before thy eyes . disown not the charges that are against thee , without reason . let us no longer sew fig-leaves on our sins . the impartial judge of heaven and earth knows our crimes . let us therefore return and say , father i have sinned . thus did those , lam. 5.16 . wo be to us , we have sinned . david yeilded the case to nathan , i am the man : maist thou not justly say , i am the man that have been nothing the better for deliverance ; i am the man or woman have gone on in pride , sensuality , without repentance , reformation ? defend not thy sins by excuses , but own them ; be convinced without further demur , and condemn thy self as a guilty malefactor . then let us pour out our tears , and open the flood-gates of godly sorrow ; and if we would escape , let us be like those , ezek. 7.16 . who were like doves in the valleys , mourning every one for their own iniquity . oh that our proud hearts might yeild to this work ! our dry eyes be filled with tears . let us fill gods bottle with our tears ! what is weeping good for , but to testifie our sorrow for sin ? it cannot recover a dying friend , it may a dying nation : it cannot stop the course of death , it may the coming of judgments . open then the windows of heaven , and break up the deeps , and let us make us a hearty weeping , as may prevent the heavy judgments our great sins are calling for . then let us make a holy resolution , in the strength of the almighty , to cease from our sins . say as holy iob , job 34.32 . if i have done evil i will , do it no more . with holy indignation reject thy former villanies . oh let our souls be raised to a deserved hatred of these great iniquities , and let nothing content us , but the utter ruine of our ruining sins . let us not be dismai'd at the difficulty attending that blessed work : 't is hard to destroy sin , but will it not be harder to be damned for it ? if it be hard to bear the launching of those ranker'd wounds , what will it be to bear the smart of the envenomed arrows of divine justice for ever ? know also , thou may'st do all things through christ that strengthens thee ; then carry thy sins with the solemnity of penitential tears , to their eternal funeral . and unless this reformaon shall attend thy repentance , thou repentest with an absurd contradiction . optima poenitentia est nova vita : the best repentance is a new life . this is the repentance our hainous sins require ; and all this is to be done in a more than ordinary way , because of the greatness of our sins . 3. if sins after deliverance are so great , hence ▪ see how near judgments may be unto us , because the measure of our iniquities will be so suddenly ●illed . the patience of h●aven will soon be worn out with these daring provocations . as we are heaping up sin , the almighty is heaping up wrath ; and the greater sins , the sooner the treasures of wrath will be full . the more fuel we bring , the sooner the fire will be kindled to consume us . the lord in his mercy is waiting to be gracious , backward to judgment ; but such iniquities will soon waste his patience , and provoke his wrath . we read , gen. 15.16 . that the lord delayed punishment , because the iniquity of the amorites was not yet full . the measure of sin and wrath are often filling many years ; and according as sins are aggravated , judgments approach faster or slower . thus ioel 3.13 . god calls for sickles to be put in , because the harvest was ripe , the pressës were full , and the fats did overflow . god will suffer sinners to stand till they are come to their full stature in sin , and then he cuts them down , and makes an end of them . thus christ speaks to the scribes and pharisees , mat. 23.32 . fill ye up the measure of your fathers . i. e. ye will be filling up the measure of their sins , till the lord comes and measures out judgment to you , according to the measure of your sins . oh then what cause have we to fear , lest the vials of wrath should suddenly be poured out upon us ! is not the harvest of sin almost ripe ? or will not these showers of mercy suddenly ripen it ? and then the sickle must be put in ; a bloody enemy let in among us , that shall cut us down as the reapers do the corn . oh let us dread the approaches of vengeance under the increases of sin and wickedness ! the measures of wrath have been long a filling ; the iniquities of our fathers are lay'd up for us , and may be rewarded on our heads when the measure is full . we ripen apace for judgments now ; destruction may be at the door ere we know . inferences from the fourth and fifth propositions concerning the destructive nature of sinning after deliverance . vse i. may destruction come after deliverance ? then hence we may learn , that present impunity can be no evidence of our future safety . mercies are not so inseparably entail'd upon us , that justice cannot deprive us of them . present prosperity may have a mournful ending in dismal adversity . national , as personal salvation from present dangers , may end in destruction . the wings of our feathery confidence had need be clipt , when we fondly presume the almighty to be ever bound to deliver such a people as we , because he hath once more graciously done it . 2 pet. 2.9 . god reserves the unjust to judgment . the bird that escapes the fowlers net for once , may be afterwards caught : we that are wonderfully preserved from the snares of hellish plotters , may at last be made a prey , if we grow no more watchful . our cloudy heavens threaten new storms . the world is very full of great and unexpected mutations : the turnings of the wheels of providence are very swift and various . we may now as suddenly be destroy'd , as we have often been delivered . iud. 5. after delivered , god destroyed those that believed not . the ship that evades the dangers of the sea more than once , may be swallowed up in its sands , or shattered by its rocks at last . the reprieved malefactor may justly expect his deserved execution , after a little space afforded for preparation . and in truth , the relief our offended god hath given us , seems more like a reprieve , than a deliverance ; and cause we have most seriously to fear , that ere long we shall experience that justice can destroy , as mercy can deliver . our impunity is not from gods impotency , but patience ; and that may soon be expir'd . we have cause to dread that awakening word , josh. 24.20 . if ye forsake the lord , then will he turn and do you hurt , after all the good he hath done you . our not returning under good , will make him turn to do us harm . proceeding in sin will interrupt the course of mercies , and introduce successions of judgments . you may be surprised with sudden miseries , in the midst of your feigned safety . god will not always draw with cords of love . hos. 11.3.4 , 5. i drew them with cords of a man , with bonds of love ; that is , i dealt with them in the most gracious manners , striving to draw their rebellious hearts into subjection ; but since i cannot prevail , v. 5 they shall not go down to egypt , they shall have no shelter there , but the assyrian shall be their king , and the sword shall abide in their cities , and devour his branches . thus may the dealings of god be changed , and cords of love be turned to chastising rods , to lash the backs of stubborn fools . we cannot ensure the continuance of mercies , but by our compliance with the designs of god by them . that which was spoken to ephraim , may fall upon us , hos. 9.11 . as for ephraim , his glory shall flee away like a bird . we imagine we have mercies sure as a bird in the cage : but as the door being opened the bird flies away , so mercies will take their wings , and be gone from a sinful people . trust not then to your present freedom , you may be enslaved ; flatter not your selves in hopes of perpetual deliverance , destruction may come at last . 3. will this persistence in sin hasten such certain and miserable ruine ! then see what reason there is to shake off our pleasing but hurtful security , admitting some fearful thoughts , and affecting our hearts with apprehensions of our eminent danger . unwilling we are to admit of such truths near our decoying hearts , which may affect us with fear or grief : but 't is far from the nature of wisdom to flatter our selves into ruine ; or to fancy our selves secure in a glorious paradise , till we be miserable in a desolate wilderness . three things , says luther , will undo a nation ; oblivion of mercies , politick contrivances , and carnal security . well will it be , if these prove not our ruine at last . oh what a fearless age do we live in ? we sleep on pillows stuft with the fire of divine vengeance : we cry , peace , peace , and destruction is coming . how do we stupifie our senses , fear our consciences , lock up our understandings , to keep out all fears in the midst of most dreadful dangers ? what stupifying opiums hath the devil perswaded us to swallow , that makes us so mindless of approaching miseries ? how do we fortifie our selves with most fond presumptions against the threats of vengeance denounc'd from heaven ? can fancyed safety deliver our nation from enemies , when we have nothing else to secure us ? can empty boastings of conceited ability to defend our selves , prevent the assaults of enemies , or deliver our land from the ruine designed ? will security in sin be sufficient guard to preserve us from all conspiracies ? can neither god nor man do us any harm , whilst we imagine our selves out of danger ? oh nos miserrimos ! oh miserable england ! how do we surfeit with mercies , and wax sick with the kindness of heaven , and yet say , it shall be well with us ? how do we wound our selves , when the lord is healing ; and destroy our selves , when the lord is delivering , and yet say . the lord will go on to deliver ? what prosperity do we promise our selves , whilst god is threatning our ruine ? what halcyon-days do we vainly expect , though miseries are ready to seize us ? oh the dreadful dooms that are threatned to so stupid a people in the word of the lord ! oh the sad calamities have come upon a people in this condition ! is not this the posture our enemies so greatly desire to finde us in ? what is their work , but to lull us asleep , and then to be butchering of us ? what is the great contrivance at this day of the papists , and such as affect them , but to suppress our fears by cheating devices ? knowing our deepest security will be their greatest advantage . they know , our throats will lye open to be cut by their cruel hands , when once we have emptied our hearts of sollicitous thoughts of destruction . hence , hence it is , instruments are active to inform us deceitfully , that we are sufficiently provided against them : for this they instruct theirs and the devils martyrs to obtrude on the world the highest protestations of innocency : for this they strain their throats to swallow renouncing oaths , which they will as certainly keep as ever they intended , which i fear was not at all . hence they force themselves to a parish-church , that we may certainly think they cannot belong to the romish mother ; and that we may fancy , they cannot go thence to contrive our miserable ruine . oh then if this be their plot , how have they got us by it ? how do we please our enemies , and promote their designs , by our sinful security ? but shall we not fear the hammer and nail will cleave our pates , when sisera-like we are droll'd into sleep with a lordly dish of butter and honey ? you may certainly believe this stupifying opium will be like the poyson of asps at last . is not this the posture most have been in , when judgments came upon them ? what was there but careless and senseless doings , when that dreadful deluge surpriz'd the world of old ? mat. 24.37 , 38. how unexpected was the ruine of sodome and gomorrha ? how incredulous were the jews of their sad captivities , and of their utter desolation at last ? observe we but the frame of persons when judgments have been rained from heaven upon them , and we shall finde they were fearless of any storms , and conceitedly secure from any miseries . when the massacre broke forth in paris , the cruel butchering was acted in ireland , the ruining persecutions and distresses fell upon germany , they were all involv'd in lethargical distempers , besotted with fatal security . this is the time the beasts of prey have ever gone out to glut themselves with fatning blood . this hath been the season ever selected to manage the overthrow of kingdoms . yet examples do not warn us , but we foolishly seem resolv'd to gratifie our enemies with a suitable season to ruine us . is not this the posture that god hath severely threatned in his word , to which he will ever be faithful ? isai. 22.13 , 14. in that day the lord of hosts called to mourning and weeping , and behold joy and gladness : and it was revealed in my ears — surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till you die . nothing urges justice more to confound a people with floods of vengeance , than epicurean stupidity under awakening alarums . hath not the lord threatned , prov. 29.1 . he that being often reproved , and still hardens his neck , shall be destroyed suddenly , and that without remedy ? why then do we flatter our selves , and cry peace , peace ? shall we say as those ? zeph. 1.12 . the lord will do neither good nor evil . will not god then say , as v. 13 . therefore your goods shall become a booty , and your houses a desolation ? whatever may be the foundation our security is builded upon , so long as provoking sins are heaping up wrath , security doth but hasten our misery . 't is possible we are incredulous that judgments can ever destroy a people renowned in profession as we ; but since our profession is but as samuel's mantle , under which are shrouded most devilish sins , or as a carpet cast over the mouth of hell , it can never be a shelter for us , but stirs up the lord to vengeance . outside-holiness and mocking formality renders our condition the worse . micah 3.11 , 12. they leaned upon god in ways of sin , and said , is not the lord among us ? do we not profess him , and worship him ? therefore shall zion for your sakes be plowed as a field , and jerusalem shall become heaps , and the mountains of the house of the lord , as the high places of the forrest . the ark of the lord could not save the israelites sinning ; zion will be no shelter for hypocrites . 't is in vain to flatter our selves with conceits of safety in an outward shew of godliness ; that hay and straw can be no fence from the ruining flames of divine vengeance . awake then from brutish security , and fall to work to prevent the threatned ruine , by repentance and amendment . fancy not your selves beyond the reach of judgments , but tremble in your selves , that you may have rest in the day of trouble . make the almighty your friend , that he may not be a terrour in the day of evil. be afraid of all his judgments , for if you will not learn to fear that great and dreadful name , the lord thy god , then will he make thy plagues wonderful , deut. 28.38 . is not destruction coming after deliverance ? are not dreadful days approaching to us ? consider these few particulars following , and you will see what cause we have to shake off security , and prepare our selves to meet the lord in ways of judgments , who have so long enjoy'd the shines of mercy . 1. may we not justly fear our ungrateful carriage towards god , will hasten his formidable departure from us ? unkindness shown to friends coming to us , will certainly discourage them from abiding with us . the happiness of a nation consists above all , in the fruition of the favourable presence of god ; and if by a regardless carriage , or displeasing behavior , we provoke him to depart , our sudden ruine will be the consequence of his deserting of us . hos. 9.12 . wo also to them when i depart from them . there is that absolute necessity of the presence of the lord with a people , to conduct them by his counsel , to protect them by his power , to succeed them by his blessing in use of saving means , to deliver them in unconquerable dangers , that if he withdraws it from them , none of these things can be done by another hand . hence the lord , unwilling to ruine ierusalem , with bowels of compassion cries out , ier. 6.8 . be instructed , o ierusalem , lest my soul depart from thee , and thy land becomes desolate and not inhabited . the soul of a man is the vivisick principle , on the separation of which from the body , there ensues a death ; all strength , counsel , beauty , leaves the body . thus when the lord departs , the soul of a nation is gone , and then the nation is only a mouldring heap , and as a liveless carcass . we certainly loose all good , when the presence of god is withdrawn from us . if we by our sins make the almighty go away , he for our sins will take away all kinde of mercies from us . deut. 3.1.17 . i will forsake them . the regardless ath●ists of our age will say , let him go , and what then ? oh , says the lord. then shall ye be devoured , and many evils and troubles shall come upon you ; so that they shall say in that day , are not these evils come upon us , because the lord is not amongst us ? now may we not fear god will depart from a people that behave themselves so unkindly as we at this day ? we slight his presence , abuse his kindness ; can we think to be blest with his presence long ? we read , hos. 8.3 . israel hath cast off the thing that is good . the hebr. is only , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 repulit à se bonum , i. e. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , beneficium , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , praeter quem non est bonum . so rivet , grotius , and others : that is , israel hath driven from it god the onely good , hath made its kind benefactor go away . oh have we not done thus ? have we not been driving god away from us ; as weary of his ordinances , tired with gospel-proffers , nauseating mercies , and despising deliverances ? how can we think god , can walk with us any longer , when we walk so frowardly and contrary to him ? amos 3.3 . how can two walk together , unless they be agreed ? thereby god shews them how impossible it was for him to continue in ways of mercy to them , since they refused to walk with him in ways of duty ; which is the sweet harmony god expected from them : says the lord , you would have me to walk with you , and bless you , yet ye depart from me , and blaspheme my name . how can i longer walk with you ? thus the lord threatens a people , lev. 26.21 . if ye walk contrary to me , i will walk contrary to you . v. 24. i will bring seven times more plagues upon you , according to your sins . oh how perversely have we walked ! how contrary is disobedience to deliverance , sinning to salvation , cursing to blessing ! and may not god justly leave us to ruine , and suffer our destruction who deal thus unanswerably with him ? 2. may we not justly fear that our provoked god in justice will set the wicked over us , who have despised his righteous and blessed government ? august . says , god sets up wicked oppressors , cum judicat res humanas talibus dignas dominis ; when he judges a people meriting such masters . when religion is co●nted an intolerable yoak , under a government that decrees the observance of it , we may with terrour expect a yoak to be laid upon our necks that shall be so heavy , that we shall see our unspeakable folly in accounting the service of god a slavery to him . have we not cause to fear that dreadful word ? deut. 28.47 , 48. because thou servedst not the lord thy god with joyfulness and gladness of heart in the abundance of all things : therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the lord shall send against thee , in hunger , and thirst , and nakedness , and in want of al● things ; and they shall put a yoak upon thy neck , until they have destroyed thee . our wanton spirits under sometimes-a-prosperous rule , may be humbled by the severities of either forreign princes prevailing or home-enemies raigning . god punishing the iniquity of a people , is said , hos. 13.11 . to give them a king in his wrath . when god sets the wicked over a people , 't is a manifest indication of his anger . god often sets the worst of governours over the worst of people . as a holy man pleading with god about one phocas made an emperour , cur domine phocam imperatorem constituisti ? responsum datum accepit , quia non inveni pejorem . why lord hast thou made phocas an emperour ? he was answered , because i could not find a worse . may not our hearts then dread the fatal effects of removing our present king ? ( whom god preserve . ) should god in anger do it , what bloody confusion may follow in this nation ? and will not our sins in the abundance of mercies , make him destroy both us and our king ? prov. 28.2 . for the transgression of a land , many are the princes thereof : that is , the continuance of kings on this account is stortned , and for the punishment of their villanies the lives of their kings are abbreviated , and one is set up after a●other ; which great mutations are often attended with great confusions , and innumerable calamities . 3. may we not justly fear , the lord may suspend his divine influence from the councels of this nation , that since we have little regarded what he hath done for us , the ablest advisers , the most politick counsellours , may be disabled from doing those things which may be profitable for us ? how often have the councellours of a nation deserted by god , been unprosperous in their enterprises and undertakings for a people ? notwithstanding the care our vigilant soveraign hath taken or may take to suppress the growing power of popery by his royal proclamations ; and although the hearts of our parliament may be filled with sincerest intentions , to act for the advantage of the nation , yet they may fail in the means , and be disappointed of the end , if god should desist from concurring with them . what if their counsels shall not have acceptance ? what if their advice may seem unsafe , and others must needs be chosen ? will not the enemies of our nation be working all this while ? will not our foes be contriving and hastening our ruine , ere we have counsel to prevent it ? would not this be a heavy judgment ? and may not this be feared by us , who have seen how hard it is to give acceptable counsel in these difficult and dangerous times ? what if the lord should do to us , as to the counsellors of a people of old , isai. 19.14 . he mingled a spirit of perversness in the midst of them : hence they became as a drunken man that staggereth in his vomit . they staggered about , were always unfixed , ever unstable , but reeled this way and that way , not knowing what to do , or where to go . should this spirit of division be mingled with ours , what shall we finde but the breach made wider , the distress made greater ? private animosities would be the destruction of publick advantages : the blessing that hath been promised to the godly , hath been wanting to councellors in our age , psal. 1.3 . whatsoever he doth shall prosper . but hath not a miscarrying womb , and dry breasts , been the curse of the lord upon us ? what if the lord should suffer them to mistake the means of our recovery , or fall short in what they do ? sometimes it hath been known that governours have been too sparing to the wicked , to their own ruine . the king of israel lost his life , for sparing benhadad that should have died , 1 kings 20.41 . thus saith the lord , because thou hast let go out of thine hand a man whom i appointed to utter destruction , therefore thy life shall go for his life , and thy people for his people . it seems ahab had too great a kindness for benhadad , who deserved to dye , being an implacable enemy to them : and are there not such enemies to be destroy'd at this day ? he also held by tyranny places belonging to the israelites , and therefore deserved death : and are there not those who are seeking to possess what belongs unto us , that ought to be cut off for their malicious enterprizes ? he was also one that god did manifest his displeasure against , by destroying 100000 footmen of them , whereby he might understand gods displeasure against him . now for him to spare this enemy , to intreat so honourably this publick adversary , when given into his hands , brought him under this threatning . should our enemies be even spared like him , should we not suffer after this manner ? and will not this be a bad exchange , to give our lives for theirs ? will this be a worthy deed , to spare a thief from the gallows to cut our throats ? see 1 sam. 14.21 , 23. there is little trusting such enemies , whatever pretences they make . iudaeo baptizato , & lupo domestico , non est credendum . we must not trust a baptized iew , being an inward enemy to a christian ; nor a house-wolf , that will still make murder among the sheep . sometimes in the world it hath been known , that as men have been too sparing to the wicked , so too cruel to the godly . the rod hath been laid on the wrong back , as the poet said , dat veniam corvis , vexat censura columbas . the innocent doves are censur'd , whilst the ravenous crows are pardoned . the christians in former days have been cloath'd with bears-skins , and then baited . some persons are misrepresented , and then more severely reprehended than those a thousand times more guilty . we read in scripture how ahasuerus , that mighty prince , was brought to decree the ruine of the iews , by the aspersions haman cast upon them , as if they were a people not fit to live , and that it was not for the kings profit to suffer them ; and by this means this innocent people had utterly been destroyed , had not a wonderful providence prevented . hence sometimes it hath been experienced , that a poor afflicted people have born the punishments designed for and deserved by others , only from the misprisions of prejudiced persons . should it then be ever thus with us , how soon would our ruine come upon us ? how would the hands of enemies be strengthened , and the nation disabled from helping it self ? 4. may we not justly fear our enemies have now set forward , by their doubled diligence , that designe which was set back by the discovery of their accursed plot ? our enemies may be like the devil , qui surgit armis quibus dejicitur , rises by the weapons by which he is cast down : so these politick wretches may improve the discovery of their designs , to make for the advancing of them , by laying their plots more cunningly . we have often heard of repulsed armies gaining force , and at last become triumphing conquerours . our enemies may yet be rallying upon us , and that with a more invincible fury . the fowler often removes his snares , understanding the birds perception of it ; our enemies may change or remove their snares , and yet be as nea to slay and undo us as before . and when we are most secure from it , we are nearest to it . the dreadful battle was against gibeah , when he knew not such an evil was near him , judg. 20.34 . those serpents will not dye because their tails are cut off . those grand politicians can contrive more ways than one . 't is possible their fainting hearts have had some cordials from rome to revive them . france can help them at a dead lift : and their ghostly father will prevent the ruine of his cursed brats , if all he can do can ruine us . may we not fear things are brought to be statu quo , as they were before , or rather worse , if that be possible ? i fear every gap is not yet stopt , whereby our enemies may possibly invade us . i think it may be feared our enemies are not yet so much impaired , but that they are able to recover their loss of some arms they had to spare , and some men they will not miss amongst their thousands . do they not cry in the stoutness of their hearts and pride of spirit , as isa. 9.10 . the bricks are fallen down , we will build with stones ; the sycomores are cut down , we will build with cedars ? we have been too remiss this once , but now we will be more invincible . the water cast upon their fire , may make it burn the more fiercely , and vexatious disappointments will make them more diligent . 5. may we not justly fear the relief that we have , may be no other than a faint chearing before a miserable death ? how often do we see men labouring under deadly diseases , revive a little , and give up the ghost ? how often do we know a whist calm , before a raging storm ? a people may get a little heart immediately before their ruine . 2 kings 17.4 . compared with hos. 1.8 . when lo-ammi was born , the ten tribes that before were dispirited , and by presents did homage to the king of assyria year by year , begin to be jolly , and hope to cast off the yoak of bondage , and bring presents no longer ; but joyned in confederacy with egypt , which was immediately before their rejection . god begins to save with a little escape , but it may be but a little lightning before death . the dolphin sports much before a storm . men in jolly and fearless condition , is a dreadful presage of a ruining storm . so true it is in maximâ fortunâ minima licentia . in the greatest prosperity , we are not allowed the least sinful liberty . god threatning to bring down judgments upon israel , says , he will feed him as a lamb in a large place , hos. 4.16 . to enlarge a peoples bounds , is in scripture taken to free them from troubles ; so god designing great distress , would a while free them from troubles . 't is a metaphor taken from butchers , who about to slay their cattle , first put them into large pastures to fatten them ; so god about to destroy a people , often gives them a freedome from distress , and leaves them to fill up apace the measures of their sins , and then brings them out to slaughter : hence merc. on the place ; nunc israelitas copiosè pascet , ut mox saginati hostibus dedantur trucidandi . he feeds the isralites most plentifully with mercies , that being fatted up , they may become a prey to their butchering enemies . oh how fast do we fatten ! how soon shall we be ready to be sacrifices to our enemies ? 6. may we not justly fear , that as god in his wrath hath dealt with others , he may deal with us ? when judgments on others are not made use of as warnings , they become but examples and patterns of our own destruction . luke 13.3 . except ye repent , ye shall likewise perish . the sword of justice is not so blunted by wounding others , but it can wound the hairy scalp of every one that goes on in sin . the arrows of divine vengeance are not yet spent , there may be many in reserve to pierce our obstinate , hardened hearts . god is the same yesterday , to day , and for ever ; the same to love , protect and secure his obsequious people ; the same to ruine and destroy rebellious sinners . ezek. 20.36 . like as i have pleaded with your fathers , so will i plead with you . the punishments of sin other nations have experienced , may at last be inflicted on us . the vengeance of god on others , is a signe to us , jer. 7 . 12-14 . go ye now to my place which was in shiloh , and see what i did to it , for the wickedness of my people israel ; and now because ye have done all these works , saith the lord , therefore will i do so to this house , &c. may not the dealings of god with others , prognosticate his dealings with us ? may not the sore desolations in germany , the distresses of protestants in france , the ruines of the churches we read of in iohn's revelations , cause us to fear we at last shall experience the same miseries , and drink of the same cup of astonishment that hath been given to them ? 2 pet. 2.5 , 6. if god spared not the old world , shalt thou escape his judgment ? what have we more to secure us ? why should we not be made as sodome by judgments , that parallel it in sins ? let us take the caution god gave to israel , deut. 24.9 . remember what the lord thy god did unto miriam by the way , when he brought thee from egypt . minde what god hath been doing to other nations . the inscription on senacherib's statue may be written on all ruined nations , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . beholding me , learn to be godly . but especially when distresses fall on a people near us , we are greatly to regard them . the protestants in france are already involv'd in unspeakable trouble , and as the poet said , — tua res agitur paries cum proximus ardet . thou art greatly concerned when thy neighbours house is in flames . the cup passes from one to another . 7. to conclude , although we may have an escape from final ruine , and glorious times may succeed our unhappy days , may we not justly fear , that our mercies may be ushered in with a great deal of misery , and that a black storm will precede our glorious sunshine ? the approaches of mercies may be attended with amazing terrour . great distresses may justly be expected , before our great deliverance . the shorter the time of enemies raigning is , the greater will be their rage . a cloud ushered in the presence of god to the tabernacle ; christs coming to redeem his people , appears in a cloud . the darkest hour is a little before the dawning of the glorious day . the sorest conflicts israel had , was on their entrance into their blessed and promised canaan . mercies of greatest excellencies , have proportioned difficulties . iosephs pearled crown , & chains of honour , had answerable links of trouble . we have just cause from gods promises to expect some glorious days , but certainly a gloomy day will be first . the earth will be shaken when babylon shall fall . before we can be happy , the filth of england must be washed away with the spirit of judgment and burning . we may be dealt with as is spoken of the iews , zech. 13.8 , 9 two parts may be cut off , and the third refined . i may confidently assert , god will bring more glorious days than yet the world enjoyed ; but as balaam said , alas , who shall live when the lord does this ? numb . 24.24 . thou or i may be cut off , with millions more ; and seeing this time is at hand , be not secure . the onely way to secure any future deliverance , is by improving this . the way to have future salvation , is to make use of this you enjoy , to mortifie sins . for the redeemer shall come to zion , and to those that turn from iniquity in jacob , isa. 59.20 . so then let us no longer abuse the patience of god ; but since he is an indulgent father , let us become obedient children ; that so we may hope , that he that hath delivered , and can deliver , will still be continuing deliverances to us . soli deo gloria . finis . errata . preface . page 6. line 14. for health read hearts . book . page 21. line ult . read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 22 l. 10. r. multiplicavi . p. 47. l. 24. for willing , r. unwilling . p. 59. note , that at the twelfth line begins a fourth head . p. 73. note , l. 5. begins a second head . p. 90. note , l. 13. begins a fourth head . p. 100. l. 26. for also , r. able . p. 103. l. 3. for usurped , r. envied . books printed , and are to be sold by john hancock , at the sign of the three bibles in popes-head alley in cornhil . twelve books lately published by mr. tho. brooks , late preacher of the gospel at margarets new-fish-street . 1. precious remedies against satans devices , or salve for believers and unbelievers sores : being a companion for those that are in christ , or out of christ. 2. heaven on earth : or a serious discourse touching a well grounded assurance of mans everlasting happiness . 3. the unsearchable riches of christ held forth in 22 sermons . 4. apples of gold for young men and women , or the happiness of being good betimes . 5. a string of pearls : or the best things reserved till last . 6. the mute christian under the smarting rod , with soveraign antidotes against the most miserable engines . 7. an ark for all gods noahs in a stormy day . 8. the crown and glory of christianity , in 48 sermons on heb. 12.14 . 9. the privy key of heaven : or a discours of closet-prayer . 10. an heavenly cordial for such as have had or escaped the plague . 11. a cabinet of choice jewels , or a box of percious oyntment : containing special maxims , rules and directions , in order to the clearing up of a mans interest in christ , and his title to all the glory of another world. 12. londons lamentations . the godly mans ark , in several sermons . to which is added mrs. moors evidences for heaven : by edmund calamy , b.d. at aldermanbury . christs communion with his church militant : by nicolas lockyer . sin the plague of plagues : by ralph venning . a true narrative of those two never to be forgotten deliverances . one from the ▪ spanish invasion in 88 , the other from the hellish powder plot , nov. 5 , 1605 : by mr. sam. clark. to which is newly added a brief account of the late horrid plot , discovered 1678 , with a relation of other popish cruelties , hear and beyond seas . the accurate accomptant , or london merchant : being instructions for keeping merchants accompts : by thomas brown accomptant . short writing , the most easie , exact , lineal and speedy method that hath ever yet been obtained , as thousands in the city and elsewhere , can from their own experience testifie : by theophilus metcalf . also a book called a school-master to it , explaining all the rules thereof . a word of advice to saints ; or a choice drop of honey from the rock christ. a coppy-book of the newest and most useful hands , with directions for spelling and cyphering . bridges remains , being eight choice sermons : by the late reverend mr. william bridge of yarmouth . a disswasive from conformity to the world : also gods severity against impenitent sinners : by henry stubbes minlster of the gospel . vennings remains , belng the substance of many sermons : by mr. ralph venning , prepared by himself for the press a little before his death . the poor mans family-book : by richard baxter . luthers 34 special and choice sermons . comae berenicis , or the hairy comet : being a prognostick of malignant influences from the many blazing stars wandring in our horizon . gospel love , heart purity , and the flourishing of the righteous ; being the last sermons of that late eminent divine mr. iosept caryl . the young mans guide to blessedness , or seasonable directions for youth in their unconverted estate : by r. mayhew , minister of the gospel . causa dei , or an apology for god : wherein the perpetuity of infernal torments is evidenced , and both his goodness and justice defended : also the nature of punishments in general , and of infernal ones in particular displayed : by r. burthogge . the legacy of a dying mother to her mourning children , being the experiences of mrs. susanna bell : published by thomas brooks . king iames his counterblast to tobacco : to which is added a learned discourse touching tobacco , by dr. maynwaring : wherein men may see whether tobacco be good for them or no. strength in weakness : being a sermon preached at the funeral of mrs. martha brooks , late wife to mr. thomas brooks , minister of the gospel : to which is added some experiences of the grace and dealing of god , observed and gathered by a near relation of the said mrs. brooks . an excellent catechism by the late reverend mr. ieremiah burroughs . a discourse of christs coming , and the influence which the expectation thereof hath on all manner of holy conversation and godliness , by theophilus gale. the shepherds legacy , or forty years experience of the weather . the young mans conflict with and victory ovea the devil by faith ; or a true and perfect relation of the experiences of thomas powel , begun in the fifteenth , and continued till the seventeenth year of his age. christs certain and sudden appearance to judgment , by sam. malbon . a brief dlscription of new york , and the places thereto adjoyning ; with directions and advice to such as shall go thither , by dan. denton . a cry for lahourers in gods harvest , being a sermon preaceed at the funeral of mr. ralph venning , by r. bragge , minister of the gospel . christian directions , shewing how to walk with god all the day long , by tho. gouge . conscience the best friend upon earth , or the happy effects of keeping a good conscience , by henry stubbes . mr. stubb's directions for making peace with god , and his true last speeches . patience and its perfect work under sudden and fore trials , by tho. goodwin , d.d. orthodox paradoxes theoretical and experimental , or a believer clearing truth by seeming contradictions . with an appendix of the triumph of assurance over the law , sin , world , wants , &c. to which is added , the new command renewed , or love one another . with 10 rules for the right understanding of scripture , by r. venning , a.m. an awakening call from the eternal god to the unconverted , with seasonable advice to them that are under convictions , to prevent their miscarrying in conversion , by samuel corbin , a.m. the triumgh of mercy in the chariot of praise : a treatise of preventing secret and unexpected mercies , with some mixt reflections , by s. lee. the best friend standing at the door , or christ's awakening and affectionate call , both to professors and secure sinners , for entrance into the house , in several sermons , by iohn ryther . israel redux : or , the restauration of israel ; an essay upon probable grounds that the tartars are the ten tribes of israel , by g.f. with some scriptue evidences of their future corversion and establishment in their own land ; together with two discourses on the mournful state of the church , with a prospect of her dawning glory , by samuel lee. beams of the spirit enlivening , enlightning , and gladding the soul , imp. ios. caryl . the absolute accomptant , or london-merchant , containing instructions and directions for a methodical keeping of merchants accounts , after the most exact and concise way of debitor and creditor . also the memorial , vulgarly called a wast-book , and a cash-book , with a journal and a leager ; and at the end of the leager a ballance . likewise accounts of the rents and profits of several estates mentioned to be mortgaged , with the deductions for taxes respectively . as also a transaction and carrying on of a trade foreign and domestick , for above one whole year ; with many varieties of demonstrations , to please , profit , and delight those that desire to learn , and will take the pains to examine the said account ; very plain and easie to be nnderstood by any of an indifferent capacity ; and expedient for all schoolmasters that teach , and all thae desire to learn to keep merchants accounts , by thomas brown accomptant . an english and nether dutch dictionary , composed out of the best authors . an english and nether-dutch grammar , easie to be understood . the sole and soveraign way of england's being saved , humbly proposed by robert perrot , minister of the gospel , in london , from psalm . 80.19 . with an epistle to the reader , by mr. ioseph caryl and dr. manton . theological treatises ; being eight theses of divinity ; viz. 1. production of mans soul. 2. divine predestination . 3. the true church-regiment . 4. predictions of messias . 5. christs two geneologies . 6. the revelation revealed . 7. christ's millenar reign . 8. the worlds dissolution , by rob. vilvain . the poetical history , being a compleat collection of all the stories necessary for a perfect understanding of the greek and latine poets , and other antient authors , by mareus d' assigny , b.d. memoires of mr. des ecotais , formerly stiled in the church of rome , the most venerable father cassianus of paris , priest and preacher , of the order of the capucines , or the motives of his conversion ; in two parts . i. that the doctrine of the now roman-church is not grounded upon the scripture . 2. that the church of rome is not the true church . in french and euglish . in octavo . a description of the nature of four-footed beasts , with fourscore large figures engraven in copper . written in latine by dr. iohn iohnston ; translated into english by i. p. the compleat clerk ; containing the best forms of all sorts of presidents for conveyances , and assurances , and other instruments now in use and practice ; with the forms of bills , pleadings , and answers in chancery , as they were penned and perfected by eminent lawyers and great conveyances , both antient and modern . the true intellectual systeme of the universe ; wherein all the reason and philosophy of atheism is confuted , and its impossibility demonstrated , by r. cudworth , d. d. the history of the church and state of scotland , beginning the year of our lord 203 , and continued to the end of king iames the sixth of blessed memory , in seven books , by i. spotswood . the memoires of the lives and actions of iames and william dukes of hamilton and castleheruld , &c. in which an account is given of the rise and progress of the civil wars of scotland ; with many letters , injunctions , and other papers written by king charles the first , never before published , by gilber burnet . an epitome of essays , containing six classes of 1. theologicals , 2. historicals . 3. heterogeneals . 4. bruto-anglicals . 5. miscellaneals . 6. mutuatitials ; besides a fardel of seventy six fragments , by robert volvain . the true and only way of concord of all the christian churches , the desirableness of it , and the detection of false dividing terms open'd , by richard baxter . a true believers choice and pleasure , instanced in the exemplary life of mrs. mary coxe , the late wife of dr. thomas coxe : preached for her funeral , by richard baxter . a narrative , and impartial discovery of the horrid popish plot ; carried on for the burning and destroying the cities of london and westminster , with their suburbs , &c. setting forth the several consults , orders , and resolutions of the jesuits concerning the same . and divers depositions and informations relating thereunto , never before printed . by capt. william bedloe , lately engaged in that horrid designe , and one of the popish committee for carrying on such fires . a narrative of unheard-of popish cruelties towards protestants beyond seas : or , a new account of the bloody spanish inquisition . published as a caveat to protestants . by mr. dugdale . finis . truth maintained, or, positions delivered in a sermon at the savoy since traduced for dangerous, now asserted for sovnd and safe / by thomas fvller. fuller, thomas, 1608-1661. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a70084 of text r222778 in the english short title catalog (wing f2475). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 234 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 63 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a70084 wing f2475 estc r222778 07888680 ocm 07888680 40297 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a70084) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 40297) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1188:42 or 1206:22) truth maintained, or, positions delivered in a sermon at the savoy since traduced for dangerous, now asserted for sovnd and safe / by thomas fvller. fuller, thomas, 1608-1661. fuller, thomas, 1608-1661. sermon of reformation. [21], 24, 78 p. [s.n.], printed at london : 1643. "a sermon of reformation" has special t.p. this work appears on reel 1188:42 and 1206:22. reproduction of original in the union theological seminary library, new york. includes bibliographical references. (from t.p.) i. that the doctrine of the impossibility of a churches perfection, in this world, being wel understood, begets not laziness but the more indust[ry] in wise reformers -ii. that the church of england cannot be justly taxed withe superstitious innovations -iii. how farre private christians, ministers, and subordinate magistrates, are to concurre to the advancing of a publique reformation -iiii. what parts therein are only to be acted by the supreme power -v. of the progresse, and praise of passive obedience -vi. that no extraordinary excitations, incitations, or inspirations are bestowed from god, on men in these days -vii. that it is utterly unlawfull to give any just offence to the papist, or to any men whatsoever - viii. what advantage the fathers had of us, in learning and religion, and what we have of them -ix. that no new light, or essentiall truths, are, or can be revealed in this age -x. that the doctrine of the churches imperfection, may safely be preached, and cannot honestly be concealed. eng church of england -doctrines -apologetic works. reformation -sermons. sermons, english -17th century. a70084 r222778 (wing f2475). civilwar no truth maintained, or positions delivered in a sermon at the savoy: since traduced for dangerous: now asserted for sound and safe. by thomas fuller, thomas 1643 41509 15 65 0 0 0 0 19 c the rate of 19 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2005-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-06 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-07 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2005-07 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion truth maintained , or positions delivered in a sermon at the savoy : since traduced for dangerovs : now asserted for sovnd and safe . by thomas fvller , b. d. late of sidney colledge in cambridge . the particulars are these . i that the doctrine of the impossibility of a churches perfection , in this world , being wel understood , begets not lazinesse but the more indust●● in wise reformers . ii that the church of england cannot justly be taxed with superstitious innovations . iii how farre private christians , ministers , and subordinate magistrates , are to concurre to the advancing of a publique reformation . iiii what parts therein are only to be acted by the supreme power . v of the progresse , and praise of passive obedience . vi that no extraordinary excitations , incitations , or inspirations are bestowed from god , on men in these dayes . vii that it is utterly unlawfull to give any just offence to the papist , or to any men whatsoever . viii what advantage the fathers had of us , in learning and religion , and what we have of them . ix that no new light , or new essentiall truths , are , or can be revealed in this age . x that the doctrine of the churches imperfection , may safely be preached , and cannot honestly be concealed . with severall letters , to cleare the occasion of this book . i will beare the wrath of the lord , because i have sinned against him , untill he plead my cause , and execute iudgement for me ; then will he bring me forth to the light , and i shall see his righteousnesse , micah . 7. 9. printed at london , anno dom. 1643. to the most sacred , and reverend assembly for the reformation of the church , now convened by the parliament . most sacred and reverend divines , i have but the thoughts of an afternoone to spread before you ; for i examined the same pace that j read , that if it were possible a truth might overtake an errour , ere it goe too farre . it is not a little encouragement that i may sit like the prophetesse under the palme tree , under such a shade as your selves , and what weakenesse soever may appeare in these my assertions : this ayring them under your patronage , will heale them . for so they brought forth the sick into the streets , that at least the shadow of peter might touch some of them . thus have i suddenly set up my candle for others to light their torch at ; and , i hope , you will pardon me , if my zeale to the truth made me see anothers faults sooner then mine owne , your servant in christ iesus iohn saltmarsh . to the two most famous vniversities of england i dare not give you such high epithites , as master saltmarsh bestoweth upon the assembly , to call you the most sacred . be contented to be stiled the two most famous vniversities ; a title , which it is no flattery to give you , but injury to deny you . i have the studies of some whole dayes to spread before you . i am not ashamed to confesse so much , but should be ashamed to present your learned considerations with lesse . and will rather runne the hazard of other mens censure , to have studied so long to no purpose , then to be guilty to my selfe of so much disrespect to you , as to offer to your patronage what cost me but sleight studying . indeed i examined his examinations of my sermon with the same pace that i read them . but i could not confute his errors so speedily as i could discover them , nor could i so soon make them appeare to others , as they appeared to me ; and the evidencing of his faults did cost me some paines , whereof i hope i shall never have just cause to repent . i am altogether out of hope that my truth should quickly overtake his error , which had the advantage of me both at the starting and in the speed ; and yet i beleeve what i want in the swiftnesse of my feet , i shall have in the firmenesse of my footing . and when i overtake it at last , as i am sure i shall , seeing on truths will tire ( as being better at hand then at length ) i am confident by gods assistance , it will get firme and quiet possession in spight of opposition . it is altogether improper for mee to compare you being two in number to the palme tree under which the prophetesse deborah ; face ; but the analogie will hold well , if i should resemble you to the two olive trees continually dropping oyle in the presence of god . and methinks master saltmarsh his expression to the assembly , vnder svch a shade as yovr selves , making thout in the assembly but a shadow , ( and then what is the shadow of a shadow worth under which hee desireth to sit ? ) was but an undervaluing and diminutive expressing of their worth . i honour you as you deserve , and counting you a real and lasting substance , so i addresse my respects unto you : humbly requesting you to be pleased to patronize and defend this my defence : the rather because what doctrines therein i deliver , not long since i suckt from one of you , and in this respect i beleive both breasts give milke alike ; and therefore as your learning is most able , so your goodnesse will bee willing to protect the same , not so much because i had them from you , as because you had them from the truth . some perchance may blame my choice in choosing you for my protection who in these troublesome times are scarce able to defend your selves : the universities being now degraded , at least suspended from the degree of their former honour . and i wonder , men should now talke of an extraordinary great light , when the two eyes of our land ( so you were ever accompted ) are almost put out . however this short interruption of your happinesse will but adde the more to your honour hereafter . and here , as it were store of pride for me to counsell you , so it were want of duty not to comfort you . know , the only good token of these times is , that they are so extreamely bad they can never last long . god give you a sanctified impression of your afflictions , neither to sleight them nor sink under them ; and so , forbearing to be longer troublesome to your more serious employments , resteth the meanest of your sonnes or nephewes thomas fuller . to the learned and my worthy good friend , master charles herle . sir , when i read a pamphlet of m. saltmarsh written against me , it something moved my affections , but nothing removed my judgement . but when i saw it recommended to the world with your approbation , in this manner , nihil invenio in hoc libello , cui titulus , ( examinations , or a discovery of some dangerous positions , delivered in a sermon of reformation preached by tho. fuller , b. d. quin utiliter imprimatur . charles herle . i must confesse it troubled me not a little , suspecting either my eyes or my understanding , that either i misread your name , or had mis-written something in my sermon . wherefore fearing partiality might blind me in mine owne book ( knowing that eli was not the onely indulgent father to his owne off-spring ) i imparted my sermon to some whom you respect , and they respect you : men of singular learning and piety , to examine it . these likewise could discover no dangerous positions in it , except such as were dangerous for a preacher to deliver , but safe for people to receive in these troublesome times . and i am confident that their iudgement was such , they would not be deceived with my falsehoods : and their honesty such , they would not deceive me by their flattery . and now sir ( love cannot hate , but it may justly be angry ) consider how your accusing of me , to maintaine dangerous positions , might , as the times stand , have undone me and mine , and at least have intituled mee to a prison , now adayes the grave of men alive . times are not as formerly , when schollers might safely traverse a controversie in disputation . honourable tilting is left off , since men fell to down-right killing ; and in vaine should i dispute my innocence against souldiers violence , who would interpret the accusation of a man of your credit to be my sufficient conviction . i have in this my defence , so well as god did enable me , more clearely expressed , and strongly confirmed the positions i formerly delivered , and request you to tell mee , which are the dangerous points that here i mainetaine . by the lawes of our land , the creditor hath his choice , whether he will sue the principall , or the surety , and discretion will advise him , to sue him which is most solveable . your ability is sufficiently knowne , and seeing you have beene pleased to be bound for master saltmarsh his booke , in your approving it : blame me not sir , if i ( i will not say sue you ) but sue to you for my reparation . if you can convince me of my faults herein ( and i will bring great desire , and some capacity to learne from you ) i shall owne my selfe your proselyte , thanke god for you , and you for my conversion . yea in a printed sheet i will doe publique penance to the open view of the world , to shew men , that although i had so much ignorance as to erre , i have not so much impudence as to persist in an errour , and shall remaine , yours in all christian offices . thomas fuller . to the reverend and his worthy good friend , master iohn downam . sir , being about to read master saltmarsh his examination of a sermon of mine , which you ( to the preachers credit , and printers security ) were pleased to approve for orthodox and vsefull , mine eyes in the beginning thereof , were entertained ( i cannot say welcomed ) with this following note , an advertisement returned to the author , by a reverend divine , to certifie him touching the licensers allowance of master fullers late sermon of reformation . sir , to satisfie you concerning m. downams approbation of master fullers sermon of reformation , i assure you i heard him complaine , that he was wronged by him , in that having taken exception at some passages of that sermon , master fuller promised to amend them according to his correction , but that he did not performe what he promised . conclude me not guilty if i were moved , but sencelesse if i had not beene perplext with this accusation . had it beene true , i want a word bad enough to expresse the foulenesse of my deed . yea iustly may my preaching be suspected of falshood , if my practise be convicted of dishonesty . we know how the corinthians , from the supposed breach of s. pauls solemne promise , were ready to infer the falsity , at least the levity of his doctrine , till the apostle had rectified their mistake . this added also to my trouble , that i can privately enjoy my innocence with more contentment to my selfe , then i can publikly declare it with safety to others . for the present therefore , all that i will returne , is this . here is an accusation without a witnesse , or a witnesse without a name , and both without truth . would the inke of this reverend divine ( whosoever he was ) only hold out to blot my name , and not to subscribe his owne ? we know what court was complayned of , as a great grievance , because men therein might not know their accusers . if it cannot consist with our mutuall safety , to have my accusers ( as s. paul had ) face to face , yet it will stand with equity , i should have them name to name : till when , i account this namelesse note , no better then a libel both on you and me . god put an end unto these wofull times , before they put an end to us ; that all outward hostility being laid aside , we may have more leisure to attend , and comfort to follow , that inward christian warefare , which your paines have so well described . yours in christ iesus thomas fuller . to master john saltmarsh minister of heslerton in yorke-shire . sir , you have almost converted me , to be of your opinion , that some extraordinary light is peculiarly conferred on men in this age . seeing what cost me many dayes to make , you in fewer houres , could make void and confute . you examined ( you say ) the same pace , you read , and ( as is intimated ) wrote as fast , as you examined , and all in one ofternoon . this if it were false , i wonder you would say it ; and if it were true , i wonder you could doe it . however i commend your policy herein : for besides that you have given the world notice of the pregnancie of your parts , ( and it is no fault of yours , if you be rather heard then beleeved ) hereby you have done me a great disadvantage . for if i at leisure discover some notable errors in your examinations , you have a present plea , that you wrote them suddenly , and i shall only be repaired for the wrong that you have done me , with your raptim scripta , whereas you had done god as much glory , the cause as much good , more right to your selfe , and credit to me , if you had tooke more time , and more truely . and now consider , you only endeavour to confute some dismembred sentences of my sermon , of which some are falsely , and more of them imperfectly alleged . you know , how in a continued speech , one part receives and returnes strength and lustre unto another . and how easie is it , to overthrow the strongest sentence , when it is cut off from the assistance of the coherence , before and after it ? alas , this disiointing of things , undoeth kingdomes as well as sermons , whilest even weake matters are preserved by their owne unity and entirenesse . i have dealt more fairely with you , and set downe your whole examinations , thereby not expecting any praise , but preventing just censure , if i had done otherwise . if you demand why my answer comes so late , seeing so long silence may be interpreted a consent . know sir , it was the tenth of september , before either friend in love , would doe me the favour : or foe in anger , the discourtesie , to convey your booke unto me . whether this proceeded from the intercepting commerce betwixt the city and the country , or that your booke was loath to come out of london : as sensible , that the strength of your positions , consisted in the fortifications thereof . when i had received one of your bookes , i had not your present parts to answer it . men must doe , as they may doe : i hope , though my credit may , gods cause shall not suffer by my delay ; seeing truth doth not abate with time . here i speake not of those many afflictions , that have befalne me , as not being so unreasonable , as to expect any pitty from others , in these dolefull dayes , wherin none are at leisure to bemoane the misery of any private men , whilst the generall calamity ingrosseth all greife to it selfe ; and yet , i may say , such losses could not but disturbe my studies . when i had finished my answer , i could not so speedily provide to have it printed . and to speake plainely , i was advised by my best friends , to passe by your pamphlet altogether with silence and neglect , and apply my selfe onely to enlarge my sermon , for the satisfaction of others . however , that you may see i will not decline any thing : i have answered every operative passage in your examination . here i might take just exception at the sentence prefixed in the title page of your booke , 2 tim. 3. 5. having a forme of godlinesse , but denying the power thereof . out of the whole quiver of the bible , could you choose no other arrow to shoot , and make me your marke ? whom if you taxe for a meere formalist ; god grant i may make a good use of your bad suspition of me , endeavouring to acquit my selfe in heaven , whom you have accused on earth : i must stand or fall to my owne master , to whom i hope i shall stand , being held up by my saviour . remember , remember , we must all appeare before gods judgment seat , when those things which have been done in secret , shall be brought to light . meane time goe you on , a fast as you can in the high way to heaven ; but be not too free , willfully to dash your fellow travellers , with foule aspersions : for if dirt may passe for coine , debts in this nature , may easily be paid you backe againe , so resteth thomas fuller . to my deare parish saint mary savoy . my deare parish , for so i dare call you , as conceiving that although my calamities have divorced me from your bed and board , the matrimoniall knot betwixt us is not yet rescinded . no not although you have admitted another , ( for feare i hope rather then affection ) into my place . i remember how david when forced to fly from his wife , yet still cals her , my wife michall : even when at that time , she was in the possession of phaltiel the sonne of laish , who had rather bedded then wedded her . this sermon i first made for your sake , as providing it , not as a feast to entertaine strangers , but a meale to feed my family . and now having againe inlarged and confirmed it , i present it to you , as having therein a proper interest , being confident , that nothing but good and profitable truth is therein contain'd . some perchance will obiect , that if my sermon were so true , why then did i presently leave the parish when i had preached it ? my answer is legible in the capital letters of other ministers miserie , who remaine in the city . i went away , for the present distresse , thereby reserving my selfe to doe you longer and better service ? if gods providence shall ever restore me unto you againe . and if any tax mee as laban taxed iacob . wherefore didst thou flee away secretly , without taking solemne leave ? i say with iacob to laban , because i was afraid . and that plaine dealing patriarch , who could not be accused for purloining a shooe latchet of other mens goods , confesseth himselfe guilty of that lawfull felony , that hee stole away for his owne safety : seeing truth it selfe may sometimes seeke corners , not as fearing her cause , but as suspecting her judge . and now all that i have to say to you , is this , take heed how you heare : imitate the wise and noble bereans , whatsoever the doctor , or doctrine bee which teacheth , or is taught unto you . search the scripture dayly whether these things be so . hansell this my counsell , on this my booke : and here beginning , hence proceed to examine all sermons , by the same rule of gods word . only this i adde also , pray daily to god , to send us a good and happy peace ; before we be all brought to utter confusion . you know , how i in all my sermons unto you , by leave of my text , would have a passage in the praise of peace . still i am of the same opinion . the longer i see this warre , the lesse i like it , and the more i loath it . not so much because it threatens temporall ruine to our kingdome , as because it will bring a generall spirituall hardnesse of hearts . and if this warre long continues , we may be affected for the departure of charity , as the ephesians were at the going away of saint paul , sorrowing most of all , that we shall see the face thereof no more . strive therefore in your prayers that , that happy condition which our sinnes made us unworthy to hold , our repentance may , through gods acceptance thereof , make us worthy to regaine . your loving minister thomas fuller . to the unpartiall reader . be not affraid to peruse my positions , though they be accused to bee dangerous . the saints did not feare infection from the company of saint paul , though he was indicted to be a pestilent fellow . to acquaint you with my intentions in this book ( that so you may proportion your expectation accordingly ) herein i have to my power vindicated the truth : consulting with my conscience , not outward safety ; insomuch that i care not whom i displeased , to please the bird in my breast . yea when the actions of other men , have by the examiner beene laid to my charge , i have tooke the boldnesse to leave them to their authors to defend . for though honestie commands me to pay my owne debts , yet discretion adviseth me from solomons mouth , to avoid sureti-ship , and not to breake my selfe with being bound for the errors of others . i cannot but expect to procure the ill-will of many , because i have gone in a middle and moderate way , betwixt all extremities . i remember a story too truely appliable to me . once a jayler demanded of a prisoner , newly committed unto him : whether or no he were a roman catholick . no , answered he : what then said he are you an anabaptist ? neither replied the prisoner , what , ( said the other ) are you a brownist . nor so said the man , i am a protestant . then said the jayler , get you into the dungeon : i will afford no favor to you , who shall get no profit by you : had you beene of any of the other religions , some hope i had to gaine by the visits of such as are of your owne profession . iam likely to finde no better usage , in this age , who professe my selfe to be a plaine protestant , without wealt or garde , or any addition : equally opposite to all hereticks and sectaries . let me mate this with another observation . by the law of the twelve tables , if a man were indebted but to one creditor , he had no power over his body : but if he owed mony to many , and was not solvable , all his creditors together might share his body betwixt them , and by joynt consent pluck him in peeces . me thinks , a good morall lurkes in this cruell law : namely , that men who oppose one adversary alone , may come off and shift pretty well , whilst he who provokes many enemies , must expect to bee torne asunder : and thus the poore levite , will bee rent into as many pieces , as the levites wife was . yet i take not my selfe to bee of so desolate and forlorne a religion , as to have no fellow professors with me . if i thought so , i should not only suspect , but condemne my judgement : having ever as much loved singlenesse of heart , as i have hated singularity of opinion . i conceive not my selfe like eliah to be left alone : having , as i am confident , in england , more then seventy thousand , just of the same religion with me . and amongst these , there is one in price and value , eminently worth tenne thousand , even our gratious soveraigne , whom god in safety and honour long preserve amongst us . and here i must wash away an aspersion , generally , but falsely cast on men of my profession and temper : for all moderate men , are commonly condemned for lukewarme as it is true , saepelatet vitium proximitate boni . it is as true , saepelatet virtus proximitate mali . and as lukewarmnesse hath often fared the better ( the more mens ignorance ) for pretending neighbourhood to moderation : so moderation ( the more her wrong ) hath many times suffered for having some supposed vicinity with lukewarmnesse . however they are at a grand distance , moderation being an wholesome cordiall to the soule : whilst lukewarmnesse ( a temper which seekes to reconcile hot and cold ) is so distastefull , that health it selfe seemes sick of it , and vomits it out . and we may observe these differences betwixt them . first the lukewarme man ( though it be hard to tell what he is ; who knowes not what he is himselfe ) is fix't to no one opinion , and hath no certain creed to beleeve ; whereas the moderate man , sticks to his principles , taking truth wheresoever he findes it , in the opinions of friend , or foe ; gathering an herb , though in a ditch : and throwing away a weed , though in a garden . secondly , the lukewarme man , is both the archer and marke himselfe ; aiming only at his owne outward security . the moderate man , levels at the glory of god , the quiet of the church , the choosing of the truth , and contenting of his conscience . lastly , the lukewarme man , as hee will live in any religion , so he will dye for none . the moderate man , what he hath warily chosen , will valiantly maintaine , at least wise intends , and desires to defend it , to the death . the kingdome of heaven ( saith our saviour ) suffereth violence . and in this sense , i may say , the most moderate men are the most violent , and will not abate an hoose , or haires breadth , in their opinions , whatsoever it cost them . and time will come , when moderate men , shall be honoured as gods doves , though now they be hooted at , as owles in the desart . but my letter swels too great , i must break off . only requesting the reader by all obligations of charity . first , to read over my sermon , before he entreth on the examination . to conclude , when i was last in london , it was generally reported that i was dead : nor was i displeased to heare it . may i learne from hence with the apostle , to die daily . and because to god alone t is known , how soon my death may come , i desire to set forth this book as my will and testament , which if it can be of no use to the reader , it may be some ease and comfort to the writer , that the world may know , in this multitude of religions , what is the religion of thy servant in christ iesus thomas fuller . a sermon of reformation . preached at the church of the savoy , last fast day , july 27 , 1643. by thomas fuller b. d. and minister there . london , printed in the yeare of our lord . 1643. a sermon of reformation . heb. 9. 10. vntill the time of reformation . those who live beyond the polar circles , are called periscii , because they have shadows round about them . in a more mysticall meaning the jewes before christ may be so called , living in constant umbrages of types and ceremonies which were taken away when the sunne of righteousnesse did arise . their sacrificing of lambes and rammes , and kids and goats , and calves , and kine , and turtle-doves , with their observing of meates and drinkes , and dayes , whereas the apostle saith , colos. 2. 17. a shadow of things to come , but the body is of christ . yea , in some sense i may safely say , that the very sanctum and sanctum sanctorum , was still but the outward atrium , as containing therein such types , as related to a higher and holier truth : to instance only in the holy of holies , herein were seven sacred utensils , all full fraught with heavenly mysteries . first , the golden censor , siguifying our prayers mingled with christs merits ( woefull for us if he did not give better incense then we bring ) which he offers up for us to his father . secondly , the arke of the covenant overlaid round about with gold ; whilest shittim wood was in the middest thereof , to typifie christs humanity decked and adorned with his godhead . thirdly , the pot of manna , looking back wards in memoriall of the miraculous meat of the israelites in the wildernesse : and forwards to set forth angels food in heaven , which is neither to eat nor to drinke , but to doe gods will , and to see gods glory . fourthly , aarons rod which budded , and besides the history contained therein , alluded to christs resurrection , that branch of iesse cut downe and cast out amongst the dead : which yet afterwards did revive , flourish , and fructifie . fifthly , the tables of the covenant , wherein the commandements were written by gods finger , to intimate , that only an infinite power can effectually print gods lawes in our hard and obdurate hearts . sixthly , the golden cherubims overshadowing the mercy-seat with their wings , and looking towards it ; to shew , that the mystery of gods mercy is to be covered from the curiosity of prophane eyes , whilest the pious may with comfort behold it . seventhly , and lastly , the mercy-seat it selfe ; the embleme of that mercy-seat in heaven , to which poore penitents being cast at the barre of gods justice have a free and open appeale . all these were of gold and pure gold , and yet saint paul ( gal. 4. 9. ) calleth all legall ceremonies beggarly elements , in comparison of christ the truth , in whom these did determine and expire : as the rude lines of black-lead wherwith the picture is first drawne , vanish away when the curious limner layeth on the lively colours ; so that all these outward ordinances had an end at the comming of christ , being only to last , vntill the time of reformation . the text is so short , it needs not to be divided , only the word reformation must bee expounded ; a word long in pronouncing and longer in performing , as generally signifying the bettering , and amending of what is amisse ; in greeke {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , a through rectifying . however , sometimes the word reformation is not opposed to things bad in their owne nature , but to things that are lesse perfect , and may be more perfected , as in the text . for the ceremoniall law of the jewes was compleat in its kinde , as given of god , and every thing made by him , must be like him that made it very good . yet comparatively that law was imperfect , and needed a reformation , which was performed at christs comming . besides , though the ceremoniall law was good in it selfe , yet it was bad as it was abused by the ignorant jewes . for though the knowing patriarks looked through , and beyond the types to the messias himselfe : yet the dull people mistaking the shell for the kernell , and the casket for the jewell ; lodged their soules where they should only have bayted , and did dote on the shadowes as on the substance it selfe ; in which respect the peoples judgements , as well as those ceremonies , needed a reformation . the maine point we shall insist on , is this ; that christians living under the gospel , live in a time of reformation , which will appeare in severall particulars : for besides ceremonies removed according to the principall intent of the text ; manners are now reformed and doctrine refined : poligamy connived at in the patriarks , now generally condemned , the bill of divorce cancelled by christianity , which was permitted to the jewes , not because that was good , but because they were bad , and by this tolleration were kept from being worse . the second table abused by the restrictive comments of the pharisees , confining those lawes ( which were made to confine them ) onely to the outward act , are now according to our saviour interpretation extended to their true demention . the mistery of the trinity clouded in the old testament , is cleered in the new . the doctrine of gods righteousnesse by faith , of the merrit of christ , of the spirit of adoption , of the resurrection of the body , darkly delivered under the law are manifested in the gospel , with many other heavenly revelations . use . let us be hartily thankfull to god , who gave us to be borne since the comming of christ in the time of reformation . our twi-light is cleerer then the jewish noon-day : the men of china use to brag , that they ( because of their ingenious civility ) have two eyes , the europaeans one , and that all the world besides are starke blinde ; more truely it may be said that the christans had two eyes , the law and gospell ; the jewes but one , the law alone , and all people and pagans besides sit in darknesse and the shadow of death . the jewes indeed saw christ presented in a land-scept , and beheld him through the perspective of faith , seeing the promises a farre off . but at this day a dwarfe-christian is an overmatch for a gyant jew in knowledge , as appeareth by our saviours riddle , mat. 11. 11. among them that are borne of women there hath not risen a greater then john the baptist : notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdome of heaven , is greater then he . which riddle is thus untyed : john baptist was the greatest amongst the children of women , because other prophets foresaw christ , he saw him ; others spake of christ , he spake to him , and had the high honour to baptize him with water , by whose spirit he himselfe was baptized : yet was he the least in the kingdome of heaven ( which properly began after cerists ascention ) because though perchance acquainted with the generals thereof , the particulars of the time , place , meanes and manner , were as much conceal'd from him , as cleerly revealed unto us . he never knew that iudas should betray christ ; caiphas accuse him , peter deny him , pilate condeme him , souldiers crucifie him , nicodemus embalme him , ioseph bury him . these , and many more circumstances of our saviours passion , returrection and ascention , now histories to our children , were misteries to iohn baptist ; who , though christs harbinger to prepare his way , yet did not live to see his master to possesse what he had provided for him : wherefore if alexander the emperour did count himselfe much indebted to the gods , that he was borne a grecian , and not a barbarian , how thankfull ought we to be to god , who gave us to be borne neither jewes , nor pagans , but christians , since the time of reformation . but this indeed were true , if all things in the church continued at this time in the same condition of primative purity , whereto christ reform'd it . object . but long since , that falling away , foretold by the apostle , is come to passe , and that man of sinne hath played his part in the church , therein deforming manners with vice , doctrine with heresie , discipline with superstition . as for any reformation which since hath happened in england , it hath been but partiall and imperfect . king henry the eight brake the popes necke , but bruised not the least finger of popery ; rejecting his supremacy , but retaining his superstition in the six articles . the reformation under edward the sixth , was like the reformer , little better then a childe , and he must needs be a weake defender of the faith , who needed a lord protector for himselfe : as nurses to woe their children to part from knives , doe suffer them to play with rattles ; so the state then permitted the people ( infants in piety ) to please themselves with some frivious points of popery , on condition they would forsake the dangerous opinions thereof . as for queene elizabeth , her character is given in that plaine , but true expression , that she swept the church of england and left all the dust behind the doore . her successors have gone in the same path , and the same pace with little alteration , and lesse addition in matters of moment , save that besides some old errours unamended ; many innovations have broken in upon us , which might be instanced in , were it as safe as it is easie to reckon them up . we therefore desire and expect a through reformation , to see christ mounted on his throne , with his scepter in his hand , in the purity of his ordinances , and we shall grieve and groane untill such a reformation . answ . this objection containes many parts , and must be taken asunder : some things therein are freely to be granted , and others flatly to be denied , and others warily to be qualified . we freely confesse the deformation by popery , as also , that the reforming was by henry the eight and edward the sixth ( good prince , of whom i had said , that he dyed too soone , but because he dyed when god would have him ) were but partiall and imperfect . withall , we flatly deny that queene elizabeth left the dust behinde the doore , which she cast out on the dunghill ; whence this uncivill expression was raked up . the doctrine by her established , and by her successors maintained in the 39. articles , if declared , explained and asserted from false glosses , have all gold , no dust or drosse in them . againe , we freely confesse that there may be some faults in our church in matters of practice and ceremonies , and no wonder if there be , it would be a miracle if there were not : besides , there be some innovations , rather in the church then of the church , as not chargeable on the publique account , but on private mens scores , who are old enough , let them answer for themselves . religion in england , is like the cloathes of the isralites , deuteronomie 29. 5. which for many yeeres together waxed not old . alas , in some places it is thread-bare , may it have a new nappe ; in more it is spotted , may it be well scowred ; and in all places rent asunder , may it be well mended . a through reformation , we , and all good men doe desire with as strong affections , though perhaps not with so loud a noise , as any whatsoever . the highest clamour doth not alwayes argue the greatest earnestnesse . but with this qualification , that by through reformation , we meane such a one , whereof we are capable , pro statu viatorum , made with all due and christian moderation : that arrow is well drawne , that is drawne to the head , but it may over-drawne cleane through the bow , and so doe no good . there is in like manner a possibility of out-doing , even in the point of reforming : and therefore how a true through reformation may be made , and managed long to continue , by gods assistance and your patience ; i will take in hand to give the true characters of such who are to be true and proper reformers . first , they must have a lawfull calling thereunto : what better deede then to make brothers friends , and to be an equall umpire betwixt them ? yet christ himselfe declin'd the imployment , as out of his vocation , luke 12. 14. who made me a iudge or devider over you . some good duties lye in common to all good men . whosoever is called a christian hath a just calling to performe them : 't is so farre from being a sinne for any to doe them , that it is a sinne for any to leave them undone . but there be other duties , which god hath impaled in , for some particular persons , so that it is a ryot or trespasse at least for any other to force their entrance into them : amongst these actions , reformation of churches is a chief , as of highest honour , and greatest concernment . now , the supreme power alone , hath a lawfull calling to reforme a church in those respective places , wherein it is supreme ; where this supreme power is seated , the statists of the severall places may judge , the divine goeth no farther , but to maintaine that where the supreme power is , there alone is the power of reformation ; as it plainely appeares by the kings of iudah in their kingdome . two sorts of idolatry , the jewes therein were guilty of : the one grosse , the other refined . grosse idolatry against the first commandement , in worshipping a false god , as baal , and the like . refined idolatry , against the second commandement , in worshipping the true god after false and forbidden manner , 2. chronicles 33. 17. neverthelesse the people did sacrifice still in the high places , yet unto the lord their god onely . grosse idolatry found many reformers , asa , ioash , amaziah , uzziah , iotham , manasseh , whilest onely two iehosaphat and hezekiah , endeavoured the reforming of refined idolatry , and iosiah alone perfected it . in both we may observe , that the kings were praised for doing so much , or dispraised for doing no more , which plainly proves , that the reforming of the church did properly pertaine unto them . god neither mistakes , nor confounds the good deeds , or rewards of men ; but set the due praises on the true persons ; the person that doth well shall be praised : the prince shall not be commended for the good deeds of the people , not the people commended for the good deeds of the prince ; indeed gods threatens the common people of israel , levitieus 26. 23. with beasts , warres , and many other plagues , if they will not be reformed . but we never read that god reproved the people , for not reforming the jewish church from idolatry , as a taske belonging to the supreme power placed over them . meane time meere private men must not be idle , but move in their spheare till the supreme power doth reforme . first , they are dayly to pray to god to inspire those who have power and place with will and skill , couragiously to begin , constantly to continue , and happily to conclude such a reformation . secondly , they are seriously to reforme themselves : he needs not to complaine of too little worke , who hath a little world in himselfe to amend : a good man in scripture is never called gods church ( because that is a collective terme belonging to many ) but is often termed gods temple , such a temple it is lawfull for every private man to reforme : he must see that the foundation of faith be firme , the pillars of patience be strong , the windowes of knowledge be cleere , the roofe of perseverance be perfected . thirdly , he may reforme the church in his house , philemon 2 , carefully looking to his owne family , ioshua 24. 15. that he and his house may serve the lord . but as for the publique reforming of the church in generall , he must let it alone as belonging to the supreme power , to whom it is appropriated . object . but seeing wee have occasion to speake of lawfull callings , what calling ( may some say ) have you to meddle with this point above your reach , and without your compasse ; who penned your commission to take such matters in hand ? leave the describing of reformers characters to such , who have more age , experience , and ability to performe it . answ . i am , or should be , most sensible of mine owne weakenesse , being {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the least of those that dispence the word and sacraments . yet have i a calling as good as the church of england could give me : and if she be not ashamed of such a sonne , i count my selfe honoured with such a mother . and though meere private christians may not intermeddle with publick reforming of a church , gods prophets have in all ages , challenged the priviledge to tell necessary truths unto the greatest . the tongue used to be cut out of the roman sacrifices , and given unto their heraulds , to shew that freedome of language was allowed them . we are christs ambassadours , 2 corinthians 5. 20. and claime the leave to speak truth with sobernesse : and though i cannot expect my words should be like nailes fastened by the masters of the assemblies , eccl. 12. 11. yet i hope they may prove as tacks , entred by him that desires to be faithfull and peaceable in israel . the second requisite in reformers , is piety . the very snuffers in the tabernacle were made of pure gold , exodus 37. 23. they ought to be good themselves , who are to amend others , least that reproofe fall heavie on them , psalme 50. 16. but unto the ungodly ( saith god ) why doest thou preach my lawes , and takest my covenant in thy mouth ? whereas thou hatest to bee reformed , and hast cast my words behinde thee . and though sometimes bad men may reforme others , by vertue of their office : yet when it is done by the office of their vertue , and efficacy of their goodnesse , it is more gracefull in it selfe , more acceptable to god , and more comfortable to the doer . thirdly , knowledge in a competent , yea , plentifull measure : dangerous was the mistake committed by sir francis drake in eighty eight ; when neglecting to carry the lanthorne , ( as he was commanded ) in the darke night , chased five hulkes of the dutch merchants , supposing them to have been his enemies of the spaniards . such and worse errors may be committed in the reforming of a church , good mistaken for bad , and bad mistaken for good , where the light of knowledge is wanting for direction . fourthly , true courage and magnanimity , reformers need to be armed with a stout spirit cap a pee , which are to breake through the front of bad customes long received . such customes , as they are bad , are vsurpers , as they are customes are tyrants , and will stickle stously to stand in their old place . saint matthew saith , 27. 15. at the feast the governour was wont to release unto the people a prisoner . saint luke saith , 23. 17. of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast . what was but a curtesie at the first , grew in processe of time to bee a custome , and at last became a necessity . such customes made necessary by continuance must reformers expect to encounter , and resolve to remove . o , coward-lines in a magistrate is a great sinne ! who would thinke to finde the fearfull marching in the fore-front ? and yet in that forlorne hope which goeth to hell , revelations 21. 8. see them first named , but the fearfull , the unbeleeving and abominable , &c. so necessary is christian courage , especially in a reformer . fifthly and lastly , they must be endued with christian discretion , a grace that none ever speak against , but those that wanted it ; a good man will guide his affaires with discretion , psalme 112. 5. i must confesse there is a discretion ( falsely so called ) both carnall in it selfe , and inconsistent with true zeale , yea , distructive of it . christ had two disciples of the same name , the one a true man , the other a traytor , both iudasses . wherefore to prevent mistakes , the former is never cited in scriptures , but with an addition , iudas saith unto him , not iscariot , lord , &c. iohn 14. 22. iudas the servant of jesvs christ , and brother of iames , iude 1. in like manner wee , here mentioning discretion , call it christian discretion , for difference thereof , that all may know , we meane not that which destroyes zeale , but that which directs it ; not that which quencheth zeale , but which keepes it in the chimney , the proper place thereof ; not that which makes it lesse lively , but what makes it more lasting . this discretion , though last named , is not least needfull in the reformers of a church ; and must principally appeare in two things ; first , the not sparing of the tares for the wheats sake . secondly , the not spoyling the wheat for the tares sake . the not sparing the tares for the wheats sake . by tares we understand , not only things unlawfull in a church , but things unexpedient and unprofitable , which also must be removed . the barren fig-tree , luke 13. 17. was condemned , not for bearing deadly or dangerous fruit , but none at all . cut it downe , why cumbereth it the ground ? gods garden ought to bee so well dressed , as to have nothing superfluous , that doth harme that doth no good therein . hee that will not worke , neither shall hee eate , 2 thessalonians 3. 10. if such ceremonies are to be found in our church , which will not labour , neither needfull in themselves , nor conducing to decency , let them no longer have countenance in the church , nor maintenance from it . the not spoyling the wheat for the tares sake , and letting those things alone which are well ordered already . yet is there a generation of anabaptists , in number fewer , i hope , then are reported , yet more i fear then are discovered ; people too turbulent to obey , and too tyrannicall to command . if it should come into their hands to reforme , lord what worke would they make . very facile , but very foule is that mistake in the vulgar translation , luke 15. 8. instead of everrit domum , shee swept the house , 't is rendred , evertit domum , she overturnd the house . such sweeping we must expect from such spirits , which under pretence to cleanse our church , would destroy it . the best is , they are so farre from sitting at the helme , that i hope they shall ever be kept under hatches . now as discretion discovereth it selfe in the matter of reformation , so also it appeareth in the manner thereof . first , it is to be done with all reverence and respect to the ancient fathers . these , though they lived neer the fountain of religion , yet lived in the marches of paganisme ; as also in the time wherein the mystery of iniquity began to work , which we hope is now ready to receive the wages . if therefore there be found in their practice any ceremonies smacking of paganisme or popery , and if the same can be justly chalenged to continue in our church , i plead not for their longer life , but for their decent buriall . secondly , with honourable reservation to the memories of our first reformers . reverend cranmer , learned ridley , down right lattimer , zealous bradford , pious philpot , patient hooper , men that had their failings , but worthy in their generations ; these bare the heat of the day , indeed , which were burnt to ashes ; and though we may write a fairer hand then they , yet they affixed a firmer seal , that dyed for their doctrine . lastly , with carefulnesse , not to give any just offence to the papists . say not , we need not to feare to offend them , who would confound us . we have so long waited for their conversion , we have almost seene our subversion . indeed we are forbidden to offend gods little ones , but not inhibited to offend the devils great ones . and though s. paul bids us to give no offence to those that are without , that is meant of pure pagans ; and therefore the papists being neither well within nor well without , fall not under that precept . for all these expressions savour more of humor then holinesse , of stomack , then the spirit . though papists forget their duty to us , let us remember our duty to them ; to them , not as papists , but as professors of christianity , to their persons , not erronious opinions , not giving them any just offence . but if they will be offended without cause , be their amends in their own hands . if rebeckah will come to isaac , she shall be wellcome . but in no case shall isaac go back to rebeckah , genesis 34. 6. beware that thou bring not my son thither again . these five ingredients must compound effectuall reformers . where any , or all of these are wanting , a reformation will either not be made , or not long kept . witnesse the pretended reformation , the papists so much bragge off , in the last of queen mary , in the university of cambridge , by the delegates of cardinall poole . where nothing of worth was done , but many foolish ceremonies enforced , and the bones of bucer and phagi●● burnt . it passeth for the expression of mad man , to beat the aire ; and it is little better to beat the earth . to fight ( as they did ) against dust and ashes , bodies of men long before buried : except they thought by this similitude of burning dead bodies , to worke in silly people a beliefe of purgatory fire , tormenting soules deceased . now when it came into question whether the ordinances and decisions of those reformers should be ingrossed in parchment , or in paper , a doctor swinborne , master of clare hall gave his opinion , that paper would doe the deed well enough , as being likely to last longer then those decrees should stand in force ; as afterward it came to passe , they being all rescinded in the next yeer , being the first of queene elizabeth . two things more must here be well observed . first , that there is a grand difference betwixt founding of a new church , and reforming of an old . for the former , saint paul outstript all men in the world . the papists bragge much of king edgar , who is said to have founded as many monasteries , as there be weekes in the yeer . surely more churches in asia and europe were built from the ground by saint paul , who strived to preach the gospel , not where christ was named , lest he should build upon another mans foundation , romans 15. 20. but reforming of churches is an easier work , as not giving a church the life but the lustre ; not the birth but the beauty ; either repairing what is defective , or removing what is redundant . thus we acknowledge solomon the sole founder of the temple , though ioash repaired it , amending the breaches thereof . iotham enlarged it , adding the beautifull porch thereto ; and ezechiah adorned it , covering the pillars with silver therein . however , it is worth our observing , that reformers are sometimes ambitious to entitle themselves to be founders , as being covetous of credit , and counting it more honour to make a thing , then to mend it . thus nebuchadnezzar boasted , daniel 4. 30. is not this great babylon that i have built for the house of the kingdome , by the might of my power , and for the honour of my majesty ? whereas babylon was built by nimrod , or ( as others say ) semyramis , many yeers before nebuchadnezzars cradle was made . yet he , no doubt , did encrease , strengthen , and beautifie it ; on which title , see how he engrosseth all the glory unto himselfe , as first , and sole founder ! is not this great babylon that i have built ? let none in like manner brag , that they are now the first founders of a church in england , built long since therein , time out of minde . we deny and defile such papists as say that augustine the monke was the first apostle of this island , where the gospel long before had been preached , though not to the saxons our ancestors , yet to the britans our predecessors . yea , having cause to search who first brought christianity over into britanny , my endeavours have been still at a losse and left at uncertainty . perchance as god , deuteronomie 34. 6. buried the body of moses , that no man knoweth the place of his sepulchre unto this day , to cut off from the jewes all occasion of idolatry ; so it seems his wisdom hath suffered the names of the first founders of religion here to be covered in obscurity , to prevent posterity from being superstitious to their memories . however , if justly we be angry with the papists for making the brittish church ( a tall stripling grown , ) to weare swadling cloathes againe : more cause have we to distaffe the pens and preachings of such who make their addresses unto us , as unto pure pagans where the word is newly to be planted . a b moderne author tels us a strange story , how the servants of duke d. alva , seeking for a hawke they had lost , found a new country in the navell of spaine , not known before , invironed with mountaines , and peopled with naked salvages ; i should wonder if such a terra incognita could be found in england ; which ( what betwixt the covetousnesse of landlords and the carefulnesse of tenants ) is almost measured to an acre . but if such a place were discovered , i must allow that the preachers there were the first planters of the gospel , which in all others places of the kingdom are but the continuers thereof . i hope christ hath reaped much goodnesse long ago , where these , now , new pretend to plant it . and if england hath not had a true church hitherto , i feare it will not have a true church hereafter . the second thing i commend unto you is this , that a perfect reformation of any church in this world may be desired , but not hoped for . let zenophons cyrus be king in plato's common-wealth ; and batchelors wives breed maides children in mores vtopia , whilest roses grow in their gardens without prickles , as saint basil held they did before the fall of adam . these phansies are pleasing and plausible , but the performance thereof unfeisable ; and so is the perfect reformation of a church in this world difficult to bee described , and impossible to be practised . for besides that sathan will doe his best , or rather his worst to undoe it ; man in this life is not capable of such perfection . look not to finde that in man out of paradise , which was not found in man in paradise , continuance in an holy estate . martin luther was wont to say , he never knew good order in the church last above fifteen yeares , in the purity thereof ; yea , the more perfect the reformation is , the lesse time it is likely to last . mans minde being in constant motion , when it cannot ascend higher , will not stand still , but it must decline . i speake not this to dis-hearten men from endeavouring a perfect reformation , but to keep them from being dis-heartned , when they see the same cannot be exactly observed . and yet there are some now adayes that talke of a great light , manifested in this age more then ever before . indeed we modernes have a mighty advantage of the ancients , whatsoever was theirs , by industry , may be ours . the christian philosophy of iustin martyr ; the constant sanctity of cyprian ; the catholick faith of athanasius ; the orthodox judgement of nazianzen ; the manifold learning of ierome ; the solid comments of chrysostome ; the subtill controversies of augustine ; the excellent morals of gregory ; the humble devotions of bernard : all contribute themselves to the edification of us , who live in this later age . but as for any transcendent extraordinary miraculous light , peculiarly conferred on our times , the worst i wish the opinion is this , that it were true . sure i am that this light must not crosse the scripture , but cleere the scripture . so that if it affirmeth any thing contrary to gods written word , or enforceth any thing ( as necessary to salvation ) not exprest in gods word ; i dare boldly say , that such a light is kindled from hell . as for the opinion of christs corporall visible kingdome , to come within few yeares , i will neither peremptorily reject it , nor dare absolutely receive it . not reject it , lest i come within the compasse of the apostles reproofe , 2 peter 2. 12. speaking evill of the things they understand not . confessing my selfe not to know the reasons of their opinions , who though citing for it much canonicall scripture , yet their interpretations thereof may be but apocrypha . nor dare we receive it , not being safe to be familiar with strangers at the first sight ; and this tenent is strange , as set commonly afoot with these few last yeares . i am afraid rather on the contrary of a generall defection . seeing the word is so slighted , and the guests begin to play with their meat , i feare lest god the master of the feast , will call for the voyder : that so when christ comes to judgement , he shall finde no faith on the earth . but of things to come , little and doubtfully . if this opinion of christs corporall comming very shortly be true , i hope if we live , we shall have our share therein : if otherwise , moses hath no cause to complaine , if dying he commeth not into the earthly canaan , but into the heavenly . meane time whilest we expect the personall comming of christ , let us pray for the peaceable comming back of him , who sometimes is called christ in the scripture , the lords annointed . o the miserable condition of our land at this time , god hath shewed the whole world , that england hath enough in it selfe to make it selfe happy or unhappy , as it useth or abuseth it . her homebred wares enough to maintain her , and her homebred warres enough to destroy her , though no forreigne nation contribute to her overthrow . well , whilest others fight for peace , let us pray for peace ; for peace on good termes , yea on gods termes , and in gods time , when he shall be pleased to give it , and we fitted to receive it . let us wish both king and parliament so well , as to wish neither of them better , but both of them best . even a happy accommodation . only this i will adde , that his majesty in making his medals , hath tooke the right course to propagate his promises and most royall intentions to posterity , and raise it to behold the performance thereof . seeing princes memories have beene perpetuated by their coines , when all other monuments , arches , obelisks , piramids , theaters , trophies , and triumphs , have yeelded to time , and been quite forgotten . yea , t is probable , that the names of some short reigning emperours had been quite lost , if not found in their impresses on their monies , coynes , having this peculiar priviledge to themselves ; that after they had beene buried many yeares in the ground , when taken up againe , they have life enough to speake the names of those princes that caused them and their impressions to be stamped , either to their eternall shame or lasting honour . to conclude , let us all provide for that perfect reformation in the world to come ; when christ shall present the church his spouse to god his father , without spot , comming from mans corruption , or wrincle , caused by times continuance . when we shall have a new heaven and a new earth , wherein shall dwell righteousnesse . with judgements reformed from error , wils reformed from wilfulnesse , affections reformed from mistaking their object , or exceeding their measure ; all powers and parts of soule and body reformed from sinne to sanctity . let us wait all the dayes of our appointed time till our change come . untill this time of reformation . amen . finis . truth maintained . examiner . the a policy of the sermon of reformation . the scope of the sermon is reformation , but it so b moderates , so modificates , and conditionates the persons , and time , and businesse , that reformation can advance c little in this way , or method . as our astronomers who draw so many lines and imaginary circles in the heavens , that they put the sunne into an heavenly labyrinth and learned d perplexity ; such is the zodiack e you would make for the light of the gospell , and the sunne of reformation to move in . it was one of the policyes of the jewas f adversaries that when they heard of their buildings , they would build with them . they said , let us build with you , for we seeke your god as you doe . but the people of god would have no such helpers , there is no such g jesuiticall way to hinder our worke as to work with us , and under such insinnations set the builders at variance when they should fall to labour . and how easie is it to reason flesh and blood back from a good way and good resolutions ? i remember the old h prophet had soon perswaded even the man of god to returne when he told him i am a prophet as thou art . treatise . a. the policy of the sermon . ) such carnall policy wherein the subtilty of the serpent stings the simplicity of the dove to death , i utterly disclaim in my sermon . christian policy is necessary , as in our practice so in our preaching , for piety is alwayes to goe before it , but never to goe without it . b. but it so moderates and modificates . ) the most civill actions will turne wild , if not warily moderated . but if my sermon clogges reformation with false or needlesse qualifications ( till the strength of the matter leakes out at them ) my guilt is great . i am confident of my innocence , let the evidence be produced and the reader judge . c. that reformation can advance but little in this way . ) know that zoar a little one that is lasting , is better then a great babel of confusion . that reformation which begins slowly and surely , will proceed cheerfully and comfortably , and continue constantly and durably . builders are content to have their foundations creepe , that so their superstructures may runne ; let us make our ground-worke good , and no more hast then good speed . d. they put the sunne into an heavenly labyrinth and learned perplexity with their imaginary lines . ) this your strong line more perplexeth me to understand it : onely this i know , that you might have instanced more properly in any other planet which is more loaden with cycles , and epicycles , whilst the sunne hath found from astronomers this favour and freedome , to be left to the simplest motion . e. such a zodiack you would make for the light of the gospell . ) were i to spread out the zodiack of the gospell it should stretch from pole to pole , and be adequate to the heavens . there should be no more pagans in the world then there were smiths at one time in israel ; not that i would have any kild , but all converted ; yea the sunne of reformation should not have so much darknesse as a shadow to follow it . to effect this , my wishes are as strong as my power is weake . i will ( god willing ) pray and preach for it , and therefore doe not slander me to be an hinderer of the word . f. g. h. of the jewes adversaries . jesuiticall way . the old prophet . ) what you say is as true in the history , as false in the application to me . you compare me to the ammonites ( adversaries to gods people , to jesuits , to the old lying prophet . i hope the god of michael the arch-angell will give me patience , when he that disputed with him shall furnish others railing . and now torture me no longer with your accusation , come to the proofe . examiner . i find there are three principles animates the sermon . 1 how imperfect i a church will be and a reformotion doe the best you can . 2 that the light which the k fathers had formerly , was as full and glorious as the light of those dayes , or rather brighter . 3 that none but the supreame authoriy , or authority l royall , and that alone ought to begin and act in this reformation . treatise . i how imperfect a church . ) i said it and i say it againe ; it was a truth before your cradle was made , and will be one after your coffin is rotten . k that the light that the fathers had formerly , was as full & glorious . shew me such a sillable in all the sermon and i 'le yeeld the cause : not that this position is false but because i never said it ; except you collect it from those my words where i say , that the moderns had a mighty advantage of the ancients who lived in the marches of paganismes and in the time wherein the mistery of iniquity began to worke . l. none but the supreame authority or authority royall . ) i said that the supreame authority alone in those respective places wherein it is supreame , hath the lawfull calling to reforme . thus of the three principles which you reckon in my sermon . the first i said i will defend it : the second i said not , and doe deny it : the third i said otherwise then you doe alleadge it . and yet even for the two latter ( that you may not complaine for want of play ) in due time as occasion is offered , i will fully discover my opinion , that so we may either freely agree , or fairely dissent . examiner . these are your principles and let m any judge if this be a qualification fit for him , that judges or writes of such a truth . for first , he that conceits there can be no perfection in a church , will n scarce labour to make that church better , which he is sure will be bad at all times : nor will he care for any new light , whilst the old is in best reputation with him : nor will he seeke to advance the worke , but stay for a supreame authority alone : a good policy to stay the reformation till his majesties returne , and there is hopes it may coole in their hands . treatise . m. and let any judge . ) on gods blessing set any indifferent person , who is devested of prejudice , which maketh a bad witnesse and a worse judge : and now we joyne issues . n. for first , he that conceits there can be no perfection in a church , will scarce labour to make that church better . ) if the he you spake of be a meere carnall man , this nor any other principle ( save grace and gods spirit ) can spurre him on to goodnesse . but if this he be a regenerate man , this doctrine will make him tire no whit the sooner in his endeavours of reformation . you say , he will scarce labour , whereby you confesse he will labour . the gramatian saith , quod fere fit , non fit , quod vix fit , fit . one scarce is better then ten thousand almosts . yet i perceive by the scant measure in your expression , that you conceive this doctrine of the impossibility of a churches perfection on earth , to be but a backe friend to reformation . heare therefore what i answer for my selfe . first , hereby you furnish the papists with a cavill , and with a colour to enforce the same against the protestants . for we teach and maintaine , that the best workes of men are stained with some imperfections . hence the papists may inferre , that he that conceits there can be no perfection in a good deed , will scarce labour to doe one . and thus our doctrine shall be condemned for disheartning of holinesse . see sir how you meet popery in your undiscreet shunning of it . secondly , though there can be no absolute perfection in a church , yet quo ad gradum , in some good degree it is attainable , and all good men will endeavour it . mariners which make forth for the northerne discoveries , goe out with this assurance , that it is impossible to come to the pole . yet have they sought and found out very farre , almost to the eightieth degree of latitude . what covetousnesse or curiosity did in them , sure grace is as active to doe in gods children who will labour to draw neere to a perfect reformation , in obedience to gods command though they know they shall never fully attaine unto it . thirdly , the doctrine of the impossibility of a perfect reformation in this world well understood , begets not idlenesse , but the more industry in mens endeavours . for those that beleeve that the perfection of a church may be attained in this life , are subject to this mistake ( one errour is precreative of another ) to thinke that sometimes they themselves have attained it , and so ending in the midst of their journey , may sit downe and take up their rest : whereas those who conceive the impossibility of perfection , are kept in constant doing , having still plus ultra , with saint paul , forgetting those things that are behind , they reach forth to those things which are before , and presse towards the marke . fourthly , if it be objected that the impossibility of perfection discourageth men to endeavour it , seeing they cannot rationally desire it , non est voluntas impossibilium , it is no levell wish aimed at a marke , but a velleity shot at randome , which desires an impossibility . it is answered , that gods servants endeavouring a perfect reformation , doe not light on a labour in vaine , that which is wanting in them being supplyed in gods acceptance : if they doe their best , their desire is taken for the deed : the deformities of their imperfect reformation being pardoned by god in christ , in which respect , their labours are not in vaine in the lord . lastly , seeing this point of the impossibility of a churches perfection is most true ( as hereafter we shall make so appeare ) if hereupon any grow remisse and large in reforming , it is not the fault of gods straight doctrine , but of mens crooked practice : for if men inferre hellish conclusions from heavenly promises , such bad consequences are not the lawfull children of gods truth , but the bastards of mans corruption , where they are justly to be fathered for their maintenance . and now i suppose that your exception in those your words will scarce labour , is abundantly answered . o. nor will he care for any new light , whilst the old is in best reputation with him . ) this is grounded on what i never said , but if by the old light be meant that which shined from the ancient of dayes into the scriptures and thence through the fathers to us , i preferre it before any new light whatsoever . p. a good policy to stay the reformation till his majesties returne . ) it need not have stayed till his majesties returne , which might have been done before his going away ; who so often and so earnestly offered to reforme whatsoever could justly be convinced to be amisse in our church ; which proffers had they been as thankfully accepted , as they were graciously tendered , long since it had been done what we now dispute of , though it matters not for the spilling of our inke , if other mens blood had beene spared . and i doubt not when opportunity is offered his majesty will make good his word , whom no vollyes of discurtesies though discharged never so thicke against him , shall drive him from his princely promise , whilst he lookes not downewards on mens behaviour to him , but upwards to his protestations to god , learning from him whom he represents to be unchangeable . but if ( which god forefend , and yet all earthly things are casuall ) it should come to passe , that in point of reformation , what formerly was proffered by the sovereigne , and refused by the subject , should hereafter be requested by the subject , and denied by the sovereigne ; we shall have leisure enough to admire gods justice , bemoane our owne condition , and instruct our posterity not to outstand good offers , least for want of seeing their happinesse they feele their owne misery . but to returne to your mentioning of his majesties return ; when all is done for ought i can see , reformation must stay till his majesties returne . as for the time and manner thereof when and how it shall be done , god in his goodnesse and wisdome so order it , that it may be most for his glory , the kings honour , the good of the church and state . but this i say againe , that till this his returning , the generall enjoyning and peaceable practising of any reformation cannot be performed . q. and then there is hope it may coole in their hands . ) if by their hands you meane his majesties ( and what else can your words import ) it is as disloyall a suspition , as his would be an unfitting expression that should say , that reformation would boyle over in the hands of the parliament . but sir , thus farre you have excepted against my sermon in generall , now you are pleased to confute some particulars thereof . sermon paragraffe 10. withall we falsly deny that queene elizabeth left the dust behind the doore , which she cast on the dunghill , whence this uncivill expression is raked up . the doctrine by her established , and by her successors maintained in the 39. articles if declared , explained and asserted from false glosses , hath all gold , no dust or drosse in them . examiner . i will not detract from the religious huswifry of such a queene of famous memory , but we know her reformation is talk'd of now in a politicke r reverence , and we are commended backe into her times onely to hinder us from going forward in our owne ; for i am sure till this engine was contrived , shee was not such a saint in the prelates s calender . treatise . r. if there be any so base that they now make queene elizabeths reformation their protection , which formerly they disdained ( running in raine to that bush for shelter , which they meane to burne in faire weather ) shame light on them for their hypocrisie . let such be stript naked to their utter disgrate , who onely weare the memory of that worthy queene to cloke and cover them in their necessity , whose reformation was signed with successe from heaven ; our nation in her time being as famous for forreigne atchivements as now it is infamous for home-bred dissentions . yet god forbid our eyes should be so dazled with the lustre of her days as not to goe forward to amend the faults thereof , if any such be justly complained of . s. shee was not such a saint in the prelates calender . ) i never saw the prelates calender , but in the late reformed almanacks , i find neither her nor any other for saints . examiner . for the doctrine established from queen elizabeths times , though it be not the businesse so much of our reformation as the 39. articles where it dwels ; yet this we know , either the light of the doctrine was very dimme , or the eyes of our bishops t and jesuits , for one of them would needs spy arminianisme , and the jesuit popery . and some will make it a probleme ; yet whether their glosse may accuse the articles , or the article their glosse , such cassanders found so much latitude in our doctrine as to attempt a v reconciliation of their articles and ours together . treatis . t. i expect ( and ever may expect ) that you would have produced some drosse in our articles , instancing in some false place or point contained in them , and then i must either have yeelded to you with disgrace , or opposed you with disadvantage . but instead of this , you only tell us how some have seene arminianisme and popery in them . i answer : so the papists doe read every point of popery where you will say it was never written in the scripture . those who bring the jaundies in their eyes doe find yellownesse in every object they behold ; and nothing can be so cautiously pen'd , but ingaged persons will construe it to favour their opinions . v. as to attempt a reconciliation of their articles and ours together . ) thus many egyptian ks. attempted to let the red sea into the mediterranian . a project at first seeming easie to such as measured their neernesse by the eye and at last found impossible by those who surveyed their distance by their judgment ; seeing art & industry can never marry those things whose bands nature doth forbid . and i am confident that with the same succes , any shal undertak the accommodating of english and romish articles . nor can the wisest church in such a case provide against the boldnesse of mens attempting , though they may prevent their endeavours from taking effect . for my owne opinion , as on the one side , i should be loath that the bels should be taken downe out of the steeple and new-cast every time that unwise people tune them to their thinke : so on the other side , i would not have any just advantage given in our articles to our adversaries . however , what you say confutes not , but confirmes my words in my sermon , that the 39. articles need declaring , explaining and asserting from false glosses . and seeing it is the peculiar priviledge of gods word to be perfect at once and for ever , on gods blessing let the darke words in our articles be expounded by cleerer , doubtfull expressed in plainer , improper exchanged for fitter , what is superfluous be removed wanting supplyed too large contracted , too short enlarged , alwayes provided that this be done by those who have calling , knowledge and discretion to doe it . sermon paragraffe 11. againe , we freely confesse that there may be some faults in our church in matters of practise and ceremonies , and no wonder if there be , it would be a miracle if there were not . besides , there be some innovations rather in the church then of the church as not chargeable on the publike account , but on private mens scores , who are old enough , let them answer for themselves . examiner . these are but subtill w apologies and distinctions , for the x superstitions in the church , and to take off the eyes of the reformers , and entertaine them into changeable discourses as if they were faults and no faults , and those that were , were irreformable , and could not be made better . and thus while the errours of our church should call them to reforme , your difficulties y and impossibilities would call them off . you say it were a miracle to have none : this is such sophistry as the malignity of your clergy would cast in the way of our reformation . and for theainnovations they have beene made by your most learned the immediate issues of our church , our rubrick and practise have beene called to witnesse it ; therefore goe not on to perswade such a b fundamentall integrity and essentiall purity . you know in what a case that c church was when she thought her selfe rich ; and full , and glorious . he is no lesse an enemy to the patient then to the physitian that would perswade him that all is well or at the lest incurable . treatise . w. these are but subtill apologies . ) truly no such matter ; they are even plaine and downeright confessions from the simplicity of my heart . x. for the superstitions in the church . ) sir , lay not your enditement higher then you are sure your proof will reach . you might have done well to have insisted on some particulars , whilst now your generals accuse much , convict nothing . y. your difficulties and impossibilities would call them off . ) not so ; for to shew wise reformers the true difficulties of their worke will quicken not quench their endeavours . thus the carpenter being truly told that the wood is hard , he is to hew , will therefore not throw away his axe , but strike with the greater force . and that the doctrine of the impossibility of a churches perfect reformation on earth well understood , is no hinderer to mens labours to reforme , hath been largely proved before . z. you say it were a miracle for a church to have no faults : this is such sophistry as the malignity of your clergy would cast in the way of our reformation . ) this sophistry will at last prove good logick , and whatsoever you pretend of malignity , this is a truth to be confided in : namely , that no church in this world can be so compleat , but it will have faults . for the church being a body consisting of imperfect men the members thereof , the body must needs be imperfect also . this appeares by the constant necessity of preaching , which otherwise might well be spared , and all our sermons turned into psalmes , as also by the power of the keyes , which will never rust in the church for want of imployment . yea that petition in the prayer of christs providing for us ( and forgive us our trespasses , as we forgive them that trespasse against us ) were both needlesse and false if men might be perfect in this world . this perchance is the reason why the perfection-mongers of this age quarrell with this prayer , as having too much pride to confesse their owne faults , and too little charity to forgive other mens , so ill doth a publicans prayer fit a pharisees mouth . a. as for innovations they have beene made by your most learned . ) concerning innovations i must inlarge my selfe . in mixt actions wherein good and bad are blended together , we can neither chuse nor refuse all , but may pick out some , and must leave the rest . first , they may better be tearmed renovations then innovations , as lately not new forged , but new furbished . secondly , they were not so many as some complaine . the suspitious old man cryes out in the comedy , that 600. cooks were let into his house , when they were but two . jealousie hath her hyper boles as well as her flattery . thirdly , some of these innovations may easier be rayled on then justly reproved ; namely , such as concerned the adorning of churches , and the comlinesse of mens behaviour in gods service , where outward decency ( if not garish , costly above the estates of the parish , mimicall affected or superstitious ) is the harbinger to provide the lodging for inward holinesse . for some bodily distance brings our souls the neerer to god , with whom some have such clownish familiarity , they have the lesse friendship . fourthly , if these gave offence , it was not for any thing in themselves but either because ; first , they were challenged to be brought in without law . this often makes good matters to be ill relished , honest men if wise withall , being loath to pay their obedience , before it becomes legally due . secondly , because they seemed new and unusuall , and we know how in dangerous times every well-meaning stranger may be suspected for a spy till he hath given an account of himselfe . now few daughter-churches had seen such ceremonies , though some of their mother-cathedrals could well remember them . thirdly , because they were multiplied without any set number ; and those ceremonies which men saw were indefinit , they feared would be infinit . fourthly , because they were pressed in some places without moderation . and herein some young men ( i will not say ran without sending , but ) ran further then they were sent , outstripping them who first taught them to goe . fifthly , because they were pressed by men , some of whose persons were otherwise much distasted ; how justly ? let them seek who are concerned . lastly , because men complained that painfull preaching and pious living , the life of gods service were not pressed and practised with equall earnestnesse , as outward decency the lustre thereof ; whence their feares inferred , that the shaddowes would devoure the substance . now whereas you say that these innovations have been made by our most learned , herein i must confesse that the scales of my skill are too little in them to weigh the learning of great schollers and to conclude who have the most . but this i know , that alwayes a distinction hath been made and admitted betwixt the opinions and practise of the most eminent particular doctors ( how great soever in place power or parts ) and the resolutions and commands of the church in generall . in which respect , what hitherto you alleadge to the contrary , doth no whit disprove my words , that such innovations are rather in the church then of the church , by which they were never absolutely enjoyned nor generally received , as alwayes disclaimed by many , and lately disesed by most . such indeed as used them out of conscience ( i should have no conscience to think otherwise of some ) are not to be blamed if they privately practise them still , at their own petill , till their judgements are otherwise informed . such as took them up for fashion sake , for fashion sake have since laid them downe . such as were frighted into them desist , now their feare is removed . lastly , those who used them in hope of preferment , now disuse them in despaire thereof , not to say some of them are as violent on the contrary side , and perchance onely wait the word of command from the prevalent party to turne faces about againe . in briefe , seeing generally these ceremonies are left off , it seems neither manners nor charity , alwayes to lay that in mens dishes , which the voider some pretty while since hath cleane taken away . say not that these innovations are now rather in a swound then dead & likly to revive , when cherished with the warmth of authority , seeing his majesty hath often and fully proffered , that whatsoever is justly offensive in them shall be removed , and pitty it is but that the rest should by the same lawfull power be re-enforced . but enough hereof , and more perchance then will please the reader , though lesse could not have satisfied the writer ; if i have contented any , well ; if i have displeased all , i am contented . b. therefore goe not on to perswade such a fundamentall integrity and essentiall purity . ) indeed the pains may well be spared , for all wise men are sufficiently perswaded thereof already . for if hereby you meane ( and i would faine learne what other sence your words are capable of ) that the church of england hath not as yet been entire in the fundamentals , and pure in the essentials to salvation . we all are in a wofull condition . have we lived thus long in our church , now to dye eternally therein ? seeing none can be saved therein if it be unsound in the fundamentals of religion ; must the thousand six hundred forty third yeer from christ's birth be the first yeer of the nativity of the church of england , from which she may date her essentiall purity ? sir , i could at the same time chide you with anger , bemoane you with pitty , blush for you with shame , were it not that i conceive this passage fell unawares from your pen , and that you intend to gather it up againe . c. you know in what a case that church was , when shee thought her selfe rich , and full and glorious . ) good sir , accept of my service to stay you , or else run on till you be stopt by your owne wearinesse . our church never brag'd thus her selfe , nor any other for her ; whose faults we have already freely confessed , yet maintained her to be sound in all fundamentals , and pure in all essentials . sermon paragraffe 12. a thorow reformation we and all good men desire with as strong affections , though perhaps not with so loud a noyse as any whatsoever . examiner . if your thorow reformation in this page be compared with your fourteen , fifteen , sixteen , seventeen pages , where you have bound it up with so many d restrictions , the fallacy will soon appeare . you would smoothly tax some brethren for clamour e and noyse in their desires after reformation . indeed if you could perswade the prophets of god into silence , or slight endeavours , halfe your designe were finished ; but they have a fire which flames into stronger expressions : if the zeale of the prophets and f martyrs had given no further testimony to the truth , then their own bosomes , we had not had at this day such a cloud of witnesses ; you know these loud importunities awaken and hasten men unto that holy g businesse you would so faine retard . if you think it your vertue that you can be silent in the midst of our importunities and loud cryes after reformation , i am sure 't is your policy too , for should you make too great a noyse after it , you might be heard h to oxford , and perhaps you are loath to speake out till you see further . treatis . d. fourteen , fifteen , sixteen , seventeen pages , where you have bound it up with so many restrictions . ) indeed i bound reformation with restrictions , but such as are girdles to strengthen it , not fetters to burthen it , and thereupon no fallacy , but plaine dealing will appeare . and if those pages you instance in be guilty of any such fault , no doubt when your examination doth come to them , you will presse it home , and i shall be ready to make my best defence . e. you would smoothly tax some brethren for clamour . ) if any be faulty herein they deserve not onely to be smoothly taxed . but sharply reproved . for clamour ( as the english word is taken in scripture ) sounds in a bad sense , as arguing an ill tempered spirit with a mixture of pride and impatience . and as reformation ought to be prosecuted and sought after with holy and zealous importunity ( farre from all lethargicall dulnesse and carnall stupidity ) so it must be done with a quiet and composed soule , a grace commended by the apostle . now grant none to be guilty , yet seeing all are subject ( especially in tumultuous times ) to clamour and passionate extravagancies , my gentle advertisement by the bye could not be amisse . f if the zeale of the prophets and martyrs had given . ) i thanke you sir for mentioning the martyrs ; they were the champions of passive obedience , and the lively patternes of that holy temper i now described ; men of a meeke and quiet disposition , not clamorous , though since their death , the noyse and fame of their patience hath sounded aloud thorow the whole world to all posterity . and i pray god in continuance of time the very doctrine of martyrdome be not martyred . g that holy businesse you would so faino retard . ) i appeale from your hard censure to the searcher of hearts , who one day will acquit my innocence and punish your uncharitablenesse , except it be first pardoned upon your repentance . h for should you make so great a noyse , you might be heard to oxford . ) i care not how farre i be heard , nor which way , to oxford and beyond it , to geneva , or to rome it selfe : truth is calculated for all meridians . but speake nor slightingly of oxford , it is ill wounding of a court , and a camp , and an university , and all in one word . i and perhaps you are loath to speak out till you see farther . ) i see too farre already ; namely , that ruine and desolation is likely to follow , except moderation be used on both sides : if you meane , till i see further into his majesties pleasure of reforming , what shall be found amisse , his unfained desire thereof doth already plainly appeare ? but if you meane till i see farther into his successe , know sir , my religion observes not the tides of his majesties fortune , to ebbe and flow therewith . where conscience is the fountaine , the stream keeps the same height . sermon paragraffe 12. but with this qualification , that by thorow reformation , we meane such a one whereof we are capable , pro statu viatorum , made with all due and christian moderation . examiner . you write of the reformation of a church like k bodin , not like bucer , you make it a worke of policy l not of piety , of reason , not divinity . such counsellers had m jeroboam and jehu , and they made a church as unhappy as a kingdome miserable . this moderation and qualification you speak of , is not so consistent with spirituall essenses and n operations : if the spirit of god should not work in the soules of o unregenerate , but expect an answerable compliancy first , who should be sanctified ? if god had expected any such congruity in our businesse of salvation , we had been unredeemed . to speak p closer , what qualification did queen q elizabeth expect when shee received a kingdome warm from popery ? what qualification did r henry the eight expect in his attempt against the supremacy , when all his kingdome was so universally conjured to rome ? such moderation and qualification is no other but a discreet taking so much as will serve your turne . to the law ( saith the scripture ) s and to the testimony ; moses wrought according to the patterne , so salomon too ; godly bucer makes it his worke to perswade king edward to build up a perfect church , and he v prophesies sadly , that he was afraid popery would succeed , because the kingdome of england was so averse to the kingdome of christ . and we know the marian dayes followed , me-thinkes we are too like his proprophesie , and our w marian times approach too fast . treatis . k you write of a reformation of a church like bodin . ) would i wrote like bodin , though on the condition that i never wrote answer to your examinations . would we had some bodins , some such able states-men , that they might improve their parts to advance an happy accommodation betwixt our sovereigne and his subjects . l you make it a worke of policy not of piety . ) i make it as indeed it is , a work both of moses and aaron wherein piety is to be prefer'd and policy is not to be excluded . m. such counsellours had jeroboam and jehu . ) sir , shoot your arrowes at me till your quiver be empty , but glance not with the least slenting insinuation at his majesty , by consequence to compare him to jeroboam or jehu for their idolatry ; he knoweth how to bestow his gold farre better , and to leave the calves for others . n this moderation and qualification you speake of , is not so consistent with spirituall essenses and operations . ) this your line is not so consistent with sense , as to need much lesse deserve a confutation . o if the spirit of god should not have wrought in the souls of unregenerate . ) i wonder that allotting ( as you say ) but one afternoon for the whole work of your examination you could spend so much time ( some minutes at least ) in such impertinencies . p to speake closer . ) and truly no more then needs for as yet you are farre enough from the matter : but i will not confute what you confesse . q what qualification did queen elizabeth expect . ) she needed not to expect any , when she had all requisites to reforme . those who have such qualification are not to expect , but to fall a working ; those that want it are not to fall a working but still to expect . queen elizabeth as supream in her dominions had a sufficient calling to reforme , nothing was wanting in her : onely her memory doth still deservedly expect a more thankfull acknowledgement of her worthy paines then generally she hath received hitherto . r what qualification did henry the eight expect in his attempt against supremacy ? ) he likewise had qualification sufficient ( and therefore needed not to expect any ) as your following words doe witnesse , wherein you say that all his kingdome was universally conjured to rome . if it was his kingdome , then he had a calling ; if it was conjured to rome , then he had a cause to reforme : and being the king was bound to be the exorcist to un-conjure his subjects from such superstition : yea , had king henry reformed as sincerely as he had a lawfull calling thereunto , his memory had not been constantly kept in such a purgatory of mens tongues for his lukewarme temper , even the most moderate counting him too good for to be condemned , and too bad to be commended . s to the law ( saith the scripture ) and to the testimony . ) i will treasure up this excellent passage till a convenient time , being confident that before the next paragraffe is examined , i shall appeale to these judges , and you decline them . t godly bucer makes it his worke to perswade king edward to build up a perfect church . ) the book of godly bucer which you cite i have seene on the selfe same token ; that therein he makes a bishops to be above presbyters jure divino . you know bucer wrote this worke ( as leading the front of his opera anglicana ) in the very beginning of king edwards reigne , before the reformation was generally received in england , and whilst as yet popery was practised in many places . and next to this his book followeth his gratulation to the english church , for their entertaining of the purity of the gospell ; so that what he doth perswade in the book you alleadge , was in some good measure performed in that ks. reign , and afterwards better compleated by queen elizabeth . and he prophesieth sadly that he was afraid popery would succeed . ) herein he took shrewd aime and it happened he hit right . such predictions are onely observed when afterwards they chance to take effect : otherwise , if missing the marke , men misse to marke them and no notice at all is taken of them : i know a latter divine ( not the lowest in learning one of the highest in b zeale amongst them ) who foretelleth that atheisme rather then popery is likely to overrunne england . such presages may serve to admonish not to afright us , as not proceeding from a propheticall spirit , but resulting from prudentiall observations . but before we take our farewell of this book of bucers , it will not be amisse to remember another passage ( not to say presage ) in the same worthy worke ; that we may see what sinnes in his opinion were forerunners of mine in a kingdome . the margin presents the reader with the c latin which i here translate , though the former part there of be englished already in mens practise , and the latter i feare will be englished in gods judgements . how horrible an affront doe they doe to the divine majesty who use the temples of the lord for galleries to walke in , and for places so prophane , that in them with their fellowes that prattle and treat of any uncleane and prophane businesse . this sure is so great , a contempt of god , that long since even for this alone we have deserved altogether to be banished from the face of the earth , and to be punished with heaviest judgements . such i am afraid will fall on our nation for their abominable abusing of churches ( besides other of their sinnes ) and prophaning the places of gods worship . not to speake of those ( and yet what man can hold his tongue when the mouthes of graves are forced open ) who in a place to vvhich their guilty conscience can point vvithout my pens direction , did by breaking up the sepulchers of our saxon christian kings , erect an everlasting monument to their ovvn sacriledge . such practises must needs provoke gods anger , and now me-thinks i write of the reformation of a church like bucer and not like bodin . w me-thinks we are too like his prophesie , and our marian times approach too fast . ) i hope otherwise ; trusting on a good god and a gracious king . but if those times doe come , woe be to such as have been the cause or occasion to bring or hasten them . one day it will he determined whether the peevish , perverse and undiscreet spirit of sectaries , bringing a generall dis-repute on the protestant , hath not concurred to the inviting in of superstition and popery , may come riding in on the back of anabaptisme . if those times doe come , i hope that god who in justice layeth on the burthen , will in mercy strengthen our shoulders , and what our prayers cannot prevent , our patience must undergoe . nor is it impossible with god so to enable those whom you tax to have onely a forme of godlinesse , to have such power thereof as to seale the protestant religion with their blood . sermon paragraffe 13. 14. such who are to be the true and proper reformers , they must have a lawfull calling thereunto ; duties which god hath impaled for some particular persons , amongst these actions reformation of a church is chiefe . now the supreame power alone hath a lawfull calling to reforme a church , as it plainely appeares by the kings of judah in their kingdome . examiner . i had not knowne your meaning by the lawfull calling you name , but that you expound it in the lines that follow , to be the calling of the supreame magistrate ; as if no calling were warrantable at first to x promove a reformation but that . but you must take notice there is an inward and an outward call . the inward call is a y speciall excitation from the spirit of god , and such a call is warrantable by god to be active ; i am sure it hath beene sufficient alwayes to set holy men on worke : another call is outward , and that is either of place and magistracy , or publike relation . now though magistracy be of publike relation , yet when i speake specifically of publike relation , i meane that in which every man stands bound in to god and his country ; now all these callings are commissions enough either to meddle as christianly inspired , or christianly ingaged . in ordinary transactions , i know the ordinary dispensation is to be resorted to ; but the businesse of reformation as it is extraordinary , so god giveth extraordinary conjunctures of times and circumstances , and extraordinary concurrences , and extraordniary incitations . in the building of the temple you shall see in ezra and nehemiah such workings of god , when the people were gathered together as one man , they spake to ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of moses . here the people put on even ezra to his duty . treatis . before i deale with the particulars of this examination , i will enlarge ( not alter ) what i said in my sermon of this point , promising as much brevity as god shall enable me to temper with clearnesse , and desiring the readers patience whilst at mine owne perill i deliver my opinion . but first , here we promise necessary distinction . distinguish we betwixt those times , when the church liveth under pagan or persecuting princes , and when god blesseth her with a christian king , defender of the faith : in the former case the church may and must make an hard shift to reforme her selfe so well as she can ( for many things will be wanting , and more will be but meanly supplyed ) without any relating to a supreame power , whose leave therein will be dangerous to desire and impossible to obtaine . but withall , they must provide themselves to suffer , offering no violence , except it be to drowne a tyrant in their teares , or to burne him with coales of kindnesse heaped on his head . in the latter case , when the supreame power is a nursing father to the church , suckling it , not sucking blood from it , the church must have recourse to it before shee may reforme . reforming of a church must neither stay behind for nero his leave , nor runne before without the consent of constantine . religion it selfe must not be deckt with those flowers which are violently pluck'd from the crownes of lawfull princes . come we now then to shew , how in a christian state , all are to contribute their joynt endeavours to promote a reformation . in a church , and such a state i consider three degrees thereof . first , meere private men without any mixture of a publike relation . secondly , persons placed in a middle posture with the centurian in publike imployment over some , yet under authority themselves . thirdly , the absolute supreame power , who depends of god alone . for the first of these , meere private men ; they have nothing to doe in publike reforming but to advance it by their hearty prayers to god , and to facilitate the generall reformation , by labouring to amend their owne and their families lives according to the word ; this is all god requireth of them and more i feare then most of them will performe . next , succeed those persons in a middle posture , and these are either ministers or magistrates . ministers even the meanest of them have thus far their part in publike reforming , that they are to lift up their voice like a trumpet ( though not like sheba his trumpet to sound sedition ) both to reprove vitiousnesse in manners , and to confute errors in doctrine . and if men of power and imminent place in the church , then as their ingagement is greater , so their endeavours must be stronger , to presse and perswade a publike reformation to such whom it doth concerne . magistrates may have more to doe in publike reforming having a calling from god , who therefore hath set them in a middle place betwixt prince and people , to doe good offices under the one , over the other , betwixt both . and having a calling from the king , especially if they be his counsellours , whose good they are to advance by all lawfull meanes , and rather to displease him with their speech , then to dishonour him with their silence ; and having a calling from their country , whose safety they must be tender and carefull of . first , therefore they are with all industry ( both from the ministers mouth and by their owne inquiry ) to take true notice of such defects and deformities in the church or state as are really to be reformed . secondly , they are with all sincerity to represent the same to the supreame power . thirdly , with all humility to request the amendment of such enormities . fourthly , with all gravity to improve their request with arguments from gods glory , the princes honour , the peoples profit , and the like , lastly , with their best judgement to propound and commend the fairest way whereby a reformation may as speedily as safely be effected . and if they meet with difficulties in the supreame power delaying their request , they are not to be disheartned , but after their fervent prayers to god , who alone hath the hearts of kings in his hands , they are constantly to renue their request at times more seasonable , in places more proper , with expressions more patheticall , having their words as full of earnestnesse , as their deeds farre from violence . as last comes the supreame power , who alone is to reforme by its own authority , though not by its owne advice alone . for because it is rationally to be presumed , that divines have best skill in matters of divinity , they are to be consulted with ; and here comes in the necessity and use of councels , convocations , synods and assemblyes . and because there is not onely a constant correspondency , but also an unseperable complication betwixt the church & state ; states-men are therefore to be advised with in a reformation , so to settle it as may best comply with the common-wealth . for god in that generall warrant , let all things be done decently and in order ; puts as i may say the cloath and sheeres into the hands of the church and christian princes , to cut out and fashion each particular decency and order , so as may shape and suit best with the present time and place wherein such a reformation is to be made . these parts therefore are to be acted in a reformation by the supreame power . first , he is ( either by his owne motion , or at the instance and intreaties of others ) to call and congregate such assemblyes . secondly , to give them leave and liberty to consult and debate of matters needing to be reformed . thirdly , to accept the results of their consultations , and to weigh them in the ballance of his princely discretion . fourthly , to confirme so much with his royall assent as his judgement shall resolve to be necessary or convenient . lastly , to stamp the character of authority upon it , that recusants to obey it may be subject to civill punishments . but now all the question will be what is to be done if the endeavours of subjects be finally returned with deafnesse or deniall in the supreame power . in this case a pulike reformation neither ought nor can be performed without the consent of the supreame power : it ought not , first because god will not have a church reformed by the deforming of his commandement . he hath said honour thy father and thy mother and requireth that all superiours should be respected in their places . secondly , the scripture rich in presidents for our instruction in all cases of importance affords us not one single example , wherein people attempted publiquely to reforme , without or against the consent of the supreame power ; and in this particular , i conceive a negative argument followeth undeniably : wherefore seeing the kings in judah ( there the supreame power ) were alwayes called upon to reforme , commended for doing so much , or condemned for doing no more ; and the people neither commanded to remove , nor reproved for not removing publique idolatry , without the consent of the supreame power ; it plainly appeareth , that a publique reformation belongeth to the supreame power , so that without it , it ought not to be done . as it ought not , so it cannot be done without the consent thereof ; for admit that the highest subordinate power should long debate , and at last conclude , the most wholsome rules for reformation ; yet as plato said , that amongst the many good lawes that were made one still was wanting , namely , a law to command and oblige men to the due observing of those lawes which were made . so when the best resolutions are determined on by any inferiour power , there still remaines an absolute necessity that the supreame power should bind and enforce to the observing thereof . for instance : some offenders are possessed with such uncleane spirits of prophanenesse , that none can bind them , no not with chaines of ecclesiasticall censures , onely outward mulcts in purse or person can hold and hamper them . seythian slaves must be ordered with whips , and a present prison more affrights impudent persons , then hel-fire to come . in the writs de excommunicato capiendo , & de haeretico comburendo , such as flout at the excommunicato and the haeretico , are notwithstanding heartily afraid of the capiendo and the comburendo , wherefore in such cases the church when it is most perfectly reformed is fame to crave the aid of the state by civill and secular penalties , to reduce such as are rebels to church-censures ( sometimes inflicting death it selfe on blasphemous heretickes ) and this cannot be performed by any subordinate power , in the state , but onely by the supreame power . otherwise , offenders , if pressed by any inferiour power would have a free appeale and no doubt find full redresse from the supreame power , without whose consent such penalties were imposed on them , now if it be demanded , what at last remaines for any to doe , in case the supreame power finally refuseth to reforme . thus they are to imploy themselves . first , to comfort themselves in this , that they have used the meanes , though it was gods pleasure to with-hold the blessing . secondly they are to reflect on themselves , and seriously to bemoane their own sinnes which have caused gods justice to punish them in this kind . if a rhumaticke head sends downe a constant flux , to the corroding of the lungs , an ill affected stomacke first sent up the vapours which caused this distillation : and pious subjects conceive that if god suffer princes to persist in dangerous errours , this distemper of the head came originally from the stomack , from the sinnes of the people , who deserved this affliction . thirdly , they are to reforme their selves and families , and if the supreame power be offended thereat , to prepare themselves patiently to suffer , whatsoever it shall impose upon them , having the same cause though not the same comfort , to obey a bad prince as a good one . by the way , a word in commendation of passive obedience : when men who cannot be active without sinning , are passive without murmuring . first , christ set the principall copie thereof , leading captivity captive on the crosse , and ever since he hath sanctified suffering with a secret soveraigne vertue even to conquer and subdue persecution . secondly , it hath beene continued from the primitive church by the albigences to the moderate protestants , unlesse some of late ashamed of this their masters badge , have pluckt their cognisance from their coats , and set up for themselves . thirdly , it is a doctrine spirituall in it selfe . it must needs be good , it is so contrary to our bad natures and corrupt inclinations , who will affirme any thing rather then we will deny our selves , and our owne revengefull dispositions . and surely the martyrs were no lesse commendable for their willing submitting to then for their constant enduring of their persecutors cruelty . and it was as much ( if not more ) for them to conquer their owne vindicative spirits , as to undergoe the heaviest tortures inflicted on them . fourthly , it is a doctrine comfortable to the practisers , bitter , but wholsome . yet it is sweetned with the inward consolation of a cleere conscience , which is food in famine , freedome in fetters , health in sicknesse , yea , life in death . fifthly , it is glorious in the eyes of the beholders , who must needs like and love that religion , whose professors ( where they cannot lawfully dearly sell ) doe frankly give their lives in the defence thereof . lastly , it is a doctrine fortunate in successe . by preaching of passive obedience , the dove hath out-flowne the eagle . christ's kingdome hath out-streatched caesars monarchy . hereby the wisdome of the east was subdued to the folly of preaching . the sunne of the gospell arose in the westerne parts . the parched south was watered with the dew of the word . the frozen north was thawed with the heat of religion : but since the doctrine of resisting the supreame power came into fashion , the protestant religion hath runne up to a high top , but spread nothing in breadth ; few papists have beene reclaimed , and no pagans have beene converted . alas ! that so good a doctrine should be now in so great disgrace ; yet will we praise such suffering , though we suffer for praising it . if we cannot keepe this doctrine alive , we will grieve because it is dying ; being confident , that though now it be buried in so deepe dishonour , god in due time will give it a glorious resurrection . and though i must confesse , it is farre easier to praise passive obedience then to practice it , yet to commend a vertue is one degree to the imitation of it , and to convince our judgements : first , of the goodnesse of the deede , is by gods blessing one way to worke our wils to embrace it : in a word , if this doctrine of passive obedience be cryed downe , hereafter we may have many bookes of acts and monuments , but never more any bookes of martyrs . and now these things premised , we returne to master saltmarsh his examination of my sermon . x as if no calling were warrantable at first to promote a reformation but the supreame power . ) i never said or thought so : but in what manner , and by what meanes inferiours may and must labour to promote it , i have at large declared . y the inward call is a speciall excitation from the spirit of god , and such a call is warrantable to be active . ) i shall have presently a more proper place to deale with these speciall excitations , when i come to answer your extraordinary incitations . z now all these callings are commission enough to meddle . ) i am not of so froward a spirit , as to quarrell at a word . otherwise i could tell you , that to-meddle generally importeth an over-businesse in some pragmaticall person , tampering with that which is either unlawfull in it selfe , or hurtfull to , at least improper for the party who medleth with it , and in scripture it is commonly used with a prohibition , meddle not . to passe this by , the question is not whether magistrates may meddle ( as you say ) in advancing a publique reformation ; but how ? and how farre they may be active therein ? therein i report the reader to what i have largely expressed . a in ordinary transactions , i know the ordinary dispensation is to be resorted to , but the businesse of reformation as it is extraordinary , so god giveth extraordinary conjunctures of times and circumstances , and extraordinary concurrences , and extraordinary incitations . ) now you soare high , give us leave to follow you as we can . first , i confesse that a publique reformation is an extraordinary worke in this sense , as not common or usually done every day ( as private amendment of particular persons is or ought to be . ) but it is a rare worke , which commeth to passe but seldome , and the doing of it is out of the road of ordinary mens imployment . but i deny a publique reformation to be extraordinary in this acception ; as if it were to be ordered or managed by any other rules or presidents , then such as are ordinary and usuall in the bible , where many patterns of publique reformations are presented ; in which respect the ordinary dispensation is to be resorted to in the performance thereof . whereas you say , that in publique reformations , god giveth extraordinary conjunctures of times and circumstance , and extraordinary concurrences . it is true in this sense , that the great clock-keeper of time so orders the coincidence of all things that when his houre is come , wherein such a reformation shall be made , every officious circumstance will joyfully contribute his utmost assistance to the advancing thereof . wherefore if men cannot make a reformation without roving from their calling , or breaking gods commandement ( according to which it cannot be done without the consent of the supreame power . ) hereby it plainly appeares , that the hand of divine providence doth not as yet point at that happy minute of reformation , there being as yet times distracted with jarres and disjunctures , not onely in circumstances , but even in substantiall matters requisite thereunto . and therefore seeing gods good time may not be prevented , but must be expected , men are still patiently to wait and pray for that conjuncture of times and concurrency of circumstances , whereof you speake . but whereas you speake of extraordinary incitations ( paralell to what you said before , of speciall excitations and christianly inspired . ) in these your expressions you open a dangerous pit , and neither cover it againe nor raile it about with any cautions , so that passengers may unawares fall into it . for everyman who hath done an unwarrantable act , which he can neither justifie by the law of god or man , will pretend presently that he had an extraordinary incitation for it ; a fine tricke to plead gods leave to breake his law . nor can we disprove the impudence of such people except we may use some touch-stones , thereby to try their counterfeit incitations ; my opinion herein shall be contrived into three propositions . first , no such extraordinary incitations are extant now a dayes from god , as stirre men up to doe any thing contrary to his commandements . indeed , some such we meet with in the scripture , where the law-giver dispensing with his owne law , incited abraham to kill his son , sampson to kill himselfe , and the isralites to rob the egyptians . in such cases it was no disobedience to gods publique command , but obedience to his private countermand ; if the servant varied his practice according to his absolute masters peculiar direction . but such incitations come not now a dayes but from the spirit of delusion . secondly , no extraordinary excitations are extant now a dayes from god , seizing on men ( as anciently ) in enthusiasmes , or any such raptives , as make sensible impressions on them . for these are within the virge of miracles , which are now ceased , and our age produceth things rather monstrous then miraculous . thirdly , extraordinary incitations are still bestowed by god in these dayes ; namely , such that he giveth to some of his servants ; a more then usuall and common proportion of his grace , whereby they are enabled for and incited to his service with greater rigour and activity then ordinary christians . my judgement herein shall not be niggardly to restraine gods bountifull dealing , but i verily beleeve that he who was so exceedingly liberall in former ages , is not so close handed in our times , but that in this sence he bestoweth extraordinary motions , especially on such whom his providence doth call to eminent places , either in church or state . but such motions quicken them to runne the way of gods commandements , not to start without or beside it . and as hereby they are heightned to an heroicall degree of piety , so though sometimes we may say of them in a rhetoricall expression , that they goe beyond themselves , yet they never goe beyond their calling , not never goe beyond gods commandements . now if any shall pretend that they have an extraordinary excitation to make a publique reformation without the consent of the supreame power , to whom by gods law it belongs , such an excitation cannot come from the holy ghost : for if the spirit of the prophets be subject to the prophets , much more is it subject to the god of the prophets , and to the law of that god . and truly sir , this passage of extraordinary incitations , as it is by you rawly laid downe and so left , containeth in it seed enough if well ( or rather ill ) husbanded , to sow all the kingdome with sedition , especially in an age wherein the auabaptist in their actions , beaten out of the field by gods word , doe daily flye to this their fort of extraordinary excitations . and you may observe when god gave extraordinary excitations , quo ad regulam ( stirring up men to doe things contrary to the received rule of his commandements ) then such excitations were alwayes attended with extraordinary operations . phinehas , who killed cosby and zimry , could stay the plague with his prayer ; and eliah who cursed the captaines with their fifties , could cause fire to come downe on them from heaven . it appeares this his curse was pronounced without malice , because inflicted by a miracle . it is lawfull for such to call for fire , who can make fire come at their call ; and would none would kindle discord on earth , till first they fetcht the sparks thereof from heaven . neither doe we proudly tempt gods providence , but truly trye such mens pretended extraordinary incitations , if when they wander from gods commandements in their actions , and plead inspirations , we require of them to prove the truth of such inspirations , by working a miracle . now sir , you being ( as it seemes ) an opposite to prelacy , would make strange worke , to put downe one ordinary in a diocesse , and set up many extraordinaries in every parish : and for ought i know , if some pretend extraordinary excitations , publikely to reforme against the will of the supreame power , such as side with the supreame power , may with as much probability alleadge extraordinary excitations to oppose and crosse the others reformation , and so betwixt them both our church and state will be sufficiently miserable . and now sir , remember what you said in the last paragraffe : to the law ( saith the scripture ) and to the testimony ; to such judges we may safely appeale from all your speciall excitations , extraordinary incitations and christian inspirations . b in the building of the temple you shall see in ezra and nehemiah such workings of god , when the people were gathered together as one 〈◊〉 , they spake to ez●●the scribe , to bring the booke of the law of moses . ) the unanimous consent of so many we acknowledge to be gods worke . o that we might see the like agreement in england , where the people are so farre from being gathered together as one man , that almost every one man is distrasted in his thoughts , like the times , and scattered from himselfe as if he were many people . well , they spake to ezra to bring the booke of the law ; what of all this ? c here the people put on even ezra to his duty . ) and little speaking would spurre on him , who of himselfe was so ready to runne in his calling : but i pray what was this ezra ? who were these people ? ezra was indeed a priest , a learned scribe of the law , who brought up a party out of babylon to jerusalem , armed with a large patent and commission from artaxerxes . the people here were the whole body of the jewish church and state together with zerobabel the prince and jeshuah the high priest , who ( by leave from the persian king ) had the chiefe managing of spirituall and temporall matters . and judge how little this doth make for that purpose to which you alleadge it that from hence private persons may either make the supreame power to reforme , or doe it without his consent . had you free leave of the whole scripture to range in , and could the fruit of your paines find out no fitter instance for your purposes . examiner . and whereas you say , reformation is of those duties that are d impaled in for some particular persons . i answer , this were a grand designe if you could heighten e reformation into such a holy prodigy as you would of late the church into the prelacy and f clergy , and excluded the layty as a prophane g crew and to be taught their distance . luther h will tell you , this is one of the roman engines ▪ to make such an holy businesse ; like the mountaine in the law not to be toucht or approacht to , but by moses alone . thus you might take off many good workemen , and honest i labourers in the vineyard whom christ hath hired and sent in , and so whom he hath held out his scepter as ahasuerus to ester . treatis . d and whereas you say reformation is of those duties that are impaled in for some particular persons . ) it appeares that publike reformation is so impaled ; for whereas every man is commanded to observe the sabbath , honour his parents , and every man forbidden to have other gods worship images , take gods name in vaine , kill , steale , &c. yet the supreame power alone in scripture is called on for publike reformation , and no private person , as saint austin hath very well observed . e i answer , this were a grand designe , if you could heighten reformation into such an holy prodigy . ) i need not heighten it , which is so high a worke of it selfe , that our longest armes cannot reach it , though we stand on the tiptoes of our best desires and endeavours , till god shall first be pleased to send us a peace . a prodigy it is not ( not long since you tearmed it an extraordinary businesse ) yet if it be performed whilst warre lasteth , it is a worke of the lord , and may justly seeme mervailous in our eyes . f as you would of late the church into the prelacy and the clergy . ) when and where did i doe this ? i ever accounted that the cetus fidelium , the congregation of the faithfull was gods church on earth . yet i often find the church represented in generall counsels , by the prelacy and clergy ( who are or should be the best & wisest in the church ) & their decisions in matters of religion , interpreted and received as the resolutions of the church in generall . g and excluded the layty as a prophane crew , and to be taught their distance . ) what honest man ever thought the layty , as layty , prophane ? i conceive our kingdome would be very happy , if none of the clergy were worse then some of the layty . and i am sure that the godly clergy are gods layty his {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} & the godly layty are gods clergy , his {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . yet now a dayes , some usurping lay-men may well be taught their distance , who meddie with ministeriall functions : nor will a wel-meaning heart one day excuse the unsanctified hands of such vzzah's , who presuming to preach , hold not our arke from shaking , but shake our arke with holding it . h luther will tell you this is one of the romish engines . ) indeed this was a popish device too much to depresse the layty . but this engine ( thanks be to god ) is since broken asunder , and it will be in vaine for any to glew the peeces thereof together . and now since the monopoly of the popish clergy ( ingrossing all matters of religion to themselves ) is dissolved ; it is fit protestant ministers lawfull propriety in their calling , should justly be maintained . i thus you may take off many honest labourers in the vineyard . ) farre be it from me especially if they be skilfull-labourers such as will prune the vines , not pluck them up by the roots . but this and what you say of those to whom god hath held out his scepter , is nothing to the purpose ; except you could prove where god in the scripture , hires or cals private men to make a publike reformation . examiner . and whereas you tell us , that the supreame power alone hath the lawfull calling as appeares in the kings of judah . i answer , that if so the parliament were now in a dangerous k praemunire , for you know that is suspended from us , and yet our state goes on in their worke enabled ( as they say ) by their fundamentall power and constitution : i shall not here dispute the emanations of this power in ordinances , votes and orders they have made it appeare in their owne declarations ; onely this i read of an ordinance made by the nobles and elders of israel , those lords l and commons , that whosoever would not come according to the counsell which was taken for reformations all his substance should be forfeited . here is no king of judah's hand , nor a cyrus king of persias , but an ordinance of their owne to their owne people ; onely they have king cyru's writ for their assembling and consulting . had christ m and his apostles waited in their reformation for the consent of the roman magistrate the supreame power , they had not made that holy expedition they did . had luther and zuniglius n and oecolampadius staid for the emperours reformation , they had not shed halfe that light in the germane hemisphere : there was a time when god tooke part of the spirit of moses and put it upon o the elders . treatis . k if so the parliament were now in a dangerous praemunire . ) i will not marre a meane divine of him , to make a meaner states-man , by medling with matters in the common-wealth . i that maintaine that every man must stay in his calling , will not step out of mine owne : let the differences betwixt our soveraigne and his subjects , which consist in points of state , be debated by the politicians on either side , the questions in law be argued respectively by their learned counsell and the controversies in religion be dispuputed by their severall divines . but alas ! such is our misery when all is done , the finall decision is devolved to the souldiers sword on either side , and god send the best cause the best successe . l onely this , i read of an ordinance made by the nobles and elders of israel those lords and commons . ) by your favour it was a compleat act of state as confirmed by the royall assent . true , there was no king of judah's hand unto it , because at that time judah had no king ; and who can expect that the sunne should shine at midnight , when there is none in that horizon . reasonable men will then be contented with the moon-shine , and see that here . for zerobabel shining with borrowed beames and a reflected light from the persian king ( in which respect he is stiled , hag. 1. 14. the governour of judah ) concurred to this ordinance by his approbation thereof . besides this , there was also a triple consent of the persian kings . first , the grand and generall grant from cyrus , ezra 1. 3. which still stood in full force , as confirmed by darius . ezra 6. 12. whereby the jewes being authorized to re-build the temple , were also by the same enabled to settle gods service in the best manner , by what wholsome lawes they thought fitting . secondly , a particular implicite grant , in that the persian king knowing thereof , did not forbid it when it was in his power , had it beene his pleasure ; and such a not opposing , amounts to a consent . lastly , they had a large expresse command from king artaxerxes to ezra ( chap. 7. ver. 26. ) and whosoever will not doe the law of thy god , and the law of the king , let judgement be executed speedily upon him , whether it be unto death or unto banishment , or to confiscation of goods , or to imprisonment . and now sir , i have the lesse cause to be offended with you for citing mangled and dismembred peeces in my sermon , seeing the scripture it selfe finds as little favour from your hand ; for had you compared on place thereof with another you could not but have seen the persian kings consent to this reformation . yea , so observant were the jewes of the persian kings , that at the first issuing forth of their prohibition to that purpose , they instantly desisted building the temple ; having their soules so well managed , and mouthed with the reines of loyalty , that their kings negative voyce checkt and stopt them as they were running full speed in so good an imployment : so little doth the instance alleadged advantage your cause . m had christ and his apostles waited in their reformation for the consent of the roman magistrate . ) i answer . first , christ and his apostles ; were christ and his apostles , i meane extraordinary persons , immediately inspired . secondly , the reformation they brought was mainly materiall indeed , being the gospell , without which there was no salvation . thirdly , because they had not the emperours consent to their reformation they pacified his displeased sword by preferring their necks unto it , not repining at the dearnesse of the purchase to buy the safety of their soules with the losse of their lives ; all the jury of the apostles ( john onely accepted ) followed their master to martyrdome : and hence we truly deduced the patterne of passive obedience . n had luther and zuniglius , and oecolampadius stayed for the emperours reformation . ) luther was a minister , and so had his share in reforming , so farre as to propagate the truth and confute falshoods by his pen , preaching and disputations . what he did more then this was done by the flat command , at lest free consent of frederick duke of saxony , under whom luther lived . this duke owing homage , but not subjection to the emperour ; counted himself and was reputed of others , absolutein his owne dominions , as invested with the power of life and death to coine money , make offensive and defensive leagues and the like . and although this wary prince long poised himself betwixt feare of the emperor and love of the truth , yet he always either publikely defended luther , or privately concealed him , till at last having outgrowne his fears , he fell boldly to publike reforming . as for the states of zurich and basil , wherein zuniglius and oecolampadius lived , as those cities in one relation are but members of the helvetian common-wealth , so in another capacity they are intire bodies of themselves and in these states the magistrates did stamp the character of civill authority on that reformation which these ministers did first set on foot by their preaching . but if any extravagant action of worthy men be tendred us in example , our love to their persons binds us not to defend their practice , much lesse to imitate it . we crave liberty , & if denied , will take it to leave them to themselves who if they had any especiall warrant to justifie their deeds , will at the last day produce and plead it . o there was a time when god took part of the spirit of moses & put it upon the elders . ) i will not disp●ate the manner how the spirit was taken from moses , perchance added to others , without being substracted from him , as a candle looseth no light by giving it to another . but this is falsly alleaged by you to intimate that sometimes inferiour officers may make reformations without the knowledge , yea ; against the will of the supreame power . for you must know that though the sannedrin or seventy elders were a constant court and standing counsell , yet when there was a chief governour they had recourse to him in actions of moment , num. 27. 15 , 16 , 17. and moses spake unto the lord saying , let the lord the god of the spirits of all flesh set a man over the congregation which may go out before them , and which may lead them out and bring them in , that the congregation of the lord be not as sheep which have no shepheard . see that notwithstanding the power of the elders stood still in full force , & determined not at moses his death , yet he accounted gods people no better then shepheardlesse , till they had a power paramount placed over them , and a supreame above the elders to guide and direct them . sermon paragraffe 15. mean time meet private men must not be idle but move in their sphere , till the supream power doth reform they must pray to inspire those that have power . secondly , they must reforme themselves and their families . examiner . stil you drive on your design thorow many plausible p insinuations , you would keep private men doing but still doing in their owne q circle ; i confesse i would not improve their interest too high , nor too soon , for the early settings forth of private men is apt to exceed into a tumultuary motion : yet i would not put them so far behind as they should like the lame & the diseased at the poole of bethesda waiting till a supreame r power came downe amongst them . there are many publike ingagements which they are capable on , & which providence will often guide them to as in finding s out-ways of facilitation & advancement for the businesse ; besides some other arcana and secret t preparations ; we see every thing naturally is spirited with an instinct of aiding , the whole v water and ayre will part with their own interest to serve the universall in the danger of a vacuity ; the very w romans , by a morrall principle , would contend to be first in the service of their country , and it remains as a crime upon record , that x gilead abode beyond jordan , and that dan remained in ships , and ashur abode in his breaches ; that is , that they would sit downe encircled with their owne interest and affaires . treatis . p. still you drive on your designe thorow many plausible insinuations . ) not insinuations but positions and those no more plausible then profitable . truth hath a precious inside , and withall a pleasing face . q you would keep private men doing , but still doing in their circle . ) and good reason too for if they be out of their circle , they are very troublesome spirits to conjure downe againe . r not like the lame at the poole of bethesda waiting till a supreame power . ) if god in his word will have it so , they must wait . better to lye still in the porch , though not cured then to rush headlong into the poole and be drowned . s providence will guide them in finding out-wayes of facilitation . ) i protest against all out-wayes if they be any way different from the high-road of the king of heaven ; reformation however must come lawfully , and if it will not come easily , let it come hardly , we will tug at it with our prayers ( which are alwayes best at a dead lift ) and will sweat but not sin to obtain it . nor can any better facilitation for private men be found out , then for every one of them to reform themselves . how doth an army of ten thousand men almost change their postures from east to west in an instant , because every one turneth one , and so soone would the work be done in a publike reformation , if particular persons would take care for their private amendment . t besides some other arcana and secret preparations . ) good sir play faire and above board : the surface of the earth is wide enough for us both , creep not into crannies , to put me to the pains of pioners to mine for your meaning : i know the secret of the lord is with the righteous ; but then it is such a secret , as being concealed from prophane persons , is revealed in the word . this your expression if cleer from fault , is not free from just suspition , for hereby you buz into peoples hands ( and such tinder i tell you is ready to take fire ) that there are some strange unknown misteries of religion lately communicated to some private men . strange that others of the same forme with you for learning and religion should know no such secrets , except you have received from heaven some expresse packet of intelligence . you might have done well to have told us what these arcana are , unlesse being of heavens close committee you be bound to secrecy . meane time i will be bold to tell you , that if these secrets differ from gods will in his word , they are depths of the divell and misteries of iniquity . v we see every thing naturally is spirited with an instinct of ayding , the whole water and ayre will part with their owne interests to serve the universall in the danger of a vacuity . ) i distinguish betwixt naturall agents , and voluntary , rationall and christian agents . naturall agents goe the neerest way to their owne home , their center , except countermanded to avoid a vacuity , which being yeelded to , necessarily inferres a destruction of the whole . in such a case heavy bodyes have from god a dispensation yea command to ascend , light bodies to descend , forgetting their particular propensity , to remember the publike good , according to the words of the psalmist , he hath made a decree which they shall not passe . but voluntary , rationall and christian agents , are to regulate their actions by gods will in his word ; the greatest and onely vacuity they are to feare is gods displeasure whose glory they are to preferre before their owne temporall self-preservation ; and indeed mans eternall good is wrapped up in his obedience to gods will . wherefore except you can produce a place in gods word , wherein private men are commanded to make publike reformations , there is a meer vacuity of all you have alleadged . w the very romans by a morrall principle would contend to be first in the service of their country . ) it was well done of them . their forwardnesse in serving their country will one day condemne our frowardnesse in deserving our rending our native soyle asunder with civill dissentions ; but in such cases as this is which we have now afoot ( whether private persons may reform without the consent of the supreame power ) we are not to be guided by the practice of the pagan romans , but by the precept of the christian romans , let every soule be subject to the higher powers . x and it remaines as a crime upon record , that gilead abode beyond jordan , and that dan remained in ships . ) thus it was ; sicera a pagan generall under jab in a tyrant and usurper hostilely invaded israel . deborah a prophetesse by divine inspiration incited barach to resist him . in this case each single man had a double call to assist barach : one from nature to defend his country , another from gods , immediate vocation . here it was lawfull for all to be active sinfull for any to be idle : jacl the woman was valiant ; shall men be womanish and cowardly ? now prove that private men have the like calling in point of publike reformation and if they be not active , we will not only confesse it their crime but proclaime a curse against them with meros , till this be done this instance befreindeth not your cause . examiner . and y though you would put private men upon such duties here as are godly & commendable the policy is to keepe them exercised in one good duty that they should not advance another & thus you would cunningly make one peece of divinity to betray another , and make the freinds of reformation doe it a discurtesie in ignorance . treatis . y i confesse it is an ancient subtilty of satan , to keep men exercised in one good duty that they should not advance another . thus he busieth some men all in praying to neglect preaching , all in preaching to neglect catechizing all in prayers , preaching , catechizing , to neglect practising . jesabels body was all eaten up , save onely her head , hands and feet . but indiscreet zeal so consumes some , that they have neither hands nor feet left , either to worke or to walke in their christian calling : yea , of all their head nothing remains unto them but onely their ears , resolving all gods service into hearing alone . but this accusation is not onely improperly , but falsly here layed to my charge , because i forbid meer private men to meddle with publike reforming , which belongs not at all unto them : that so cutting off the needlesse suckers the tree may be fed the better , an that private men leaving off those imployments which pertaine not to them , may the more effectually advance their owne amendment ; a taske which when it is done , the severest divine will give them leave to play . and because one dangerous policy hath been mentioned by you , it will not be amisse to couple it with another device of the divell , as seasonable and necessary in these times to be taken notice of . satan puts many meere private men on to be fierce and eager upon publike reforming thereby purposely to decline and avert them from their own selfe-amendment . for publike reforming hath some pleasure in it , as a magisteriall act and work of authority consisting most in commanding and ordering of others ; whereas private amendment is a worke all of paine , therein a man , as he is himselfe the judge , so he is the malefactor , and must indite himselfe , arraigne himselfe , convict himselfe , condemne hmselfe , and in part execute himselfe , crucifying the old man and mortifying his owne corruptions . and we can easier afford to put out both the eyes of other men , to force them to leave their deare darling sinnes , then to pluck out our own right eye ( in obedience to our saviours precept ) and forsake our owne sinnes which doe so easily beset us . besides men may be prompted to publike reforming by covetousnes to gather chips at the felling of the old church goverment , by ambition , to see and be seene in office ; by revenge to wreck their spight on the personall offences of such , whom formerly they distasted . self-amendment is not so subject to private ends but goeth against the haire yea , against the flesh it selfe , in making men deny themselves in duty to god . yea , at the last day of judgement , when god shall arraigne men , and say , thou art a drunkard , thou art an adulterer , thou art an oppressor ; it will be but a poore plea for them to say , yea lord , but i have been a publike reformer of church and state . this plea , i say , will then not hold water , but prove a broken cisterne . not will god distence with their want of obedience , because they have offered him store of sacrifice . such people therefore are daily to be called upon , to amend themselves and their families ; which is a race long enough for the best breathed private christians , though they state in their youth , and runne till their old age . sermon paragraffe 26. lastly , with carefulnesse not to give any just offence to the papists . examiner . i z wonder you would here expresse an indulgence which is not allowable , and the memory of the parliament will be honourable for that ; they knew so much divinity , as taught them not to value their offence , & to proclaim to them both in england anda ireland an irreconcilable warre . this carefulnesse and tendernesse you plead for , was the first principle which our church so farre , as to take up their altars and ceremonies to avoid offence . saint paul was of another spirit who forbore not b a disciple and apostle . when i saw , saith he , that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospell . you much mistake the divinity of christ , in matter of offence , who never forbore to preach , or publish any necessary truth : nay , when his disciples were scandalized , and said , this is an hard saying , doth this offend you , saith he ? what and if , &c. he goeth on c and pursues the offence , till they left him and his doctrine too . and for the papists , they are much of the relation and constitution of the scribes and pharisees , not without , as you say nor within & yet see if you can find our saviour or his apostles letting out themselves into such restrictions and moderation , and cautions . those truths which are essentially , d universally , alwayes and at all times holy ought not to be measured by the unbrage and scandall of the adversary . indeed in things meerly civill or indifferent , our use or liberty may appeare more but for such truths as our reformation shall bring they will be alwayes an offence to the adversary : we preach christ , saith the apostle , unto the jewes a stumbling-blocke , and to the greeks foolishnesse , and yet the apostle preacheth , e and layes these blocks , & this rock of offence in the way too . treatis . z i wonder you should here expresse an indulgence which is not allowable . ) i wonder and am sorry withall , to see a protestant take unjust offence at this doctrine , that no just offence is to be given to the papists . know sir , that besides those papists in england anda ireland to whom you say , the parliament hath proclaimed an irreconcilable war ; there be also many of their religion in spaine , france , germany , italy , poland , &c. all europe over , with whom the parliament hath not as yet , any professed open hostility , and to these no offence must be given . the eye of all christendome is upon us , the sea surrounds , but doth not conceale us : present papists read the text of our actions , and their posterity will write comments upon them ; we cannot therefore be too wary . besides , grant that this irreconcilable war you speak of should bind men in a martiall way to kill all papists ; yet i pray take notice , that in some cases we may justly kill them , whom in no case we may justly offend . though a malefactor be condemned by the judge to be executed , yet the sheriffe is a murderer if he torment him to death , contrary to the sentence of law . now giving unjust scandall to the papists , is torturing of them , and tyranny to their souls which may eternally destroy them ; and you are the first divine , and i hope shall be the last , which ever held this to be lawfull . whereas you say , i much mistake the divinity of christ in matter of offence . i should be very thankfull to you ; if you be pleased to rectifie my erroneous judgement , to which end i will crave the readers leave , the more largely to expresse my opinion in this point . i hold that we ought not to give just offence to any man whatsoever : indeed there is no danger of giving offence to the divell . he who fears to offend satan , offends god with his foolish fear : because the divels very nature is all mischief and malice , nothing being good in him save his being which he hath of god , and he is utterly incapable of salvation . but seeing in the very worst of men there is some goodnesse , or at lest a capability of grace here , and glory hereafter , through repentance and faith in christ , we may not give any man just offence , as being against the rules of piety , charity and christian prudence . against the rule of piety : because god hath said give no offence to any . against the rule of charity ; because thereby we are cruell to them which are our brethren by nature , and may be by grace . against the rule of christian prudence , because we cannot give any just offence , but also thereby we doe give them a just advantage against us . i beleeve sir , were you to dispute in an university against popish opponents , you would so warily state the question which you defend as that you would not willingly give any upper ground to your adversaries , more then what they could get for themselves . wherfore as the wrestlers in the olimpian games used to annoint themselves with oyle , not only thereby to supple their joynts , but also to make their naked bodies the more slick and slippery , that so those who wrestled with them might catch no hold upon them , so ought we , who are like to have constant opposition with the papists , to give them no more advantage then what they can earn , & if we give them more , they will be more ready to jeere us for our folly , then thank us for our bounty unto them . yea , in this respect it is more dangerous to give just offence , and therby just advantage ( for the one cannot be done without the other ) to the papists then to any meer pagans : for pagans being rude , dull and ignorant , though an advantage be given them , cannot in point of learning husband and improve it to the utmost . but the papists whom we doe know and must acknowledge cunning fencers in the school of wit and learning , are so well skild , as ever to keep and inforce the advantage we once bestowed on them . and though we need never feare them and all their art , so long as we have god and a good cause on our side , so if we betray our cause by giving them just advantage , it is just with god to deliver us over into their hands , to beat us with our owne weapons . and heare let the reader be pleased to take notice , as much materiall to our purpose , that there is a grand difference , betwixt the removing of things , bad in their owne nature , and betwixt the manner of removing them . if any thing be bad in it selfe , it may not be continued , it must be removed . none can dispence with the retaining thereof , though never so many or 〈◊〉 persons take offence at the taking of it away . if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 offended thereat , let them turne their girdles , with all their knots in them behind them , whilst wee neede not care for their causelesse anger . they who were so quick sighted that they could see an offence , where it was never given them ; let them looke againe in the same place , and their quick eyes will behold there , the amends which were never tendered them . but now , as for the manner of removing of things badd in themselves , when there is a liberty and latitude lest unto us after what fashion we will doe it , either this way or that way we must doe it so as to give none any just offence . for where it is at our choice and pleasure to use variety of waies , our discretion must pitch on the best , whereby god may receive the most glory , the action the most luster , wee our selves the greatest comfort , and all others no just cause of offence . and here once againe let mee request the reader to observe , that in my sermon , i never mentioned any rendernes , to give the papists offence , in removing of thinges bad in themselves , but this caution of not giving the papists just offence , was inserted in the proper place , when we came to shew how discretion is to appeare in the manner of a reformation . yea the same thing for substance may be done and just offence , either may or may not be given according to the different manner of doing it . for instance , such pictures which are in the suburbs of superstition ; because the gate of that city is alwaies open , may without any giving of just offence be fairely taken away . but to shoot off the head of the statue of christ , either to spite the papists , or sport our selves giveth just offence . though the image be nothing , yet such usage thereof is something , the bullet shott at the picture , wounds pietie : for to do serious worke in a jearing way , is inconsistent with christian gravities , and argueth not light of knowledge but lightnesse , not to say lewdnesse of behaviour . another instance . suppose that some ceremonies ancient for time , used by the fathers , ( though abused by the papists ( reduced by the protestants , defended by our english , not opposed by forraigne devines , be practised in our church . and withall suppose , that such ceremonies as they are harmelesse so to be uselesse , and not without the suspition of danger , as the present times stand . in this case it will give no just offence to the papists to take them away under the nation , of things unnecessary , and unsuting with our present condition . but to remove them as things prophane , idolatrous , or superstitious , giveth just offence and great advantage to our romish adversaries , by the disgrace we put on antiquity . besides , hereby we betray our friends which have don good service for our religion , namely such english devines who with their penns have learnedly and truly asserted the lawfulnesse of such ceremonies , and this our retreating from them and leaving them ingaged , ( as ioas served vriah * at the siege of rahab treacherously ) shews much basenesse in us and in such a case , the dishonouring of good men , is the dishonoring of god himselfe . but if i should in courticie yeeld so much unto you ( which i never will ) that it were lawfull to give just offence to & grounded dedicated papists , yet know there be some , who in their opnions , & affections , the borderers betwixt us & the papists , almost protestants not far from our religion , having one foote in it , and the other likely to follow , such people when they see , that we take no care , and make no conscience , to give just offence to the papists , will be ready to retract their resolutions , and call back their forward affections , say not that such men are better lost then found . is this the bowels of christian compassion , which ought to be in us , if we wilfully blast such blossomes , we are not worthy of any ripe fruite , and it is both cruelty and profanesse to cast such doe bake cakes to the doggs , which by standing a while longer in the oven , would make good and wholsome bread . nor herein do i write only by guesse , but too much by knowledge , such as i can , neither well conceale nor comfortably , relate . for when the religious paines of some reverend devines whom i know , have brought some papists to the doore of our church , the just offence given them , by the moderne extravagances of some undiscreer protestants , caused them to fale backe againe to popery . and now to returne to your examination . all things contained therein , are easily to be answered by that which we have promised . b. saint paule was of another spirit , who forbere not a disciple * and apostle , saint paule perceiving a dangerous error , in peter , reproved him , both presently while the wound was greene , and publiquely , that the plaister might be as broad as the sore . but in thus doing he gave no just offence to peter but blamed peter for giving just offence to other christians . c. he goeth on and persueth the offence till they left him ) this instance of christs his cariage herein nothing advantageth you . give me leave to repeate what i said before , if things be bad in themselves , they must be removed , though they give never so many offence , or rather though never so many or great men , take offence thereat , so also if a necessary truth bee to be introduced , it must be preached and brought into the church , though never so many be offended thereat . and if there be but one way , and no more allowed us , how and in what manner to do it , according to that one way , it must be don , not valluing the offending of any . but if verity of way be permitted unto us , god expects that we should give the least ; and if possible no offence to any . now to apply the truth which our saviour heare preached , and pressed , was of absolute and necessary concernment . namely that he was the true manna messiah and broad from heaven . such truths must bee preached , and if any burne with anger thereat , let not their fire be quenched , till it goe out for went of fuell . the case is forre otherwise in this reformation , betwixt us and the papists . we had all essentiall truths before , and if any ornamentall , or additionall truths be now to be brought in , they must be so done as to give no just offence to the papists . d. those truths , which are essentially , universally , alwaies , and at all times holy ought not to be measured , by the umbrage and scandall of the adversaries . ) if hereby you meane , that necessary truths must not bee forborne to bee preached , for feare of giving any offence , i clearely concurre with you . onely i say that all such truths are in our church already , and not now to bee newly brought in , ( as you intimate ) by the reformation . e. and yet the apostle preacheth , and layes those blockes and this rock of offence in the way too . ) the apostle preached christ , and intended him to be a rock of deserue to all , as for those who perverted him to bee a rock of offence to themselves , this scandall was not justly given to them , but unjustly taken by them . if papist take offence at any such truth , it shall affect us no more then the cryes of baals prophets * affected any of whom it is said , there was none to answer them nor any that regarded them . but as for the manner of removing away any errors , or bringing in any truths , we ought to bee wary and circumspect , for our own sakes , as well as theirs , to give them no just offence . to conclude . for mine owne part sir i pittie the persons of all papists , & heartily desire their convertion , but hate theirs , and all other errors , with a perfect hatred . and this my enmity to all popish tenents , doth the more plainely appeare to be grounded on my judgement not on my passion , because i would have almen so cautious , as not to give them just advantage least out actions fight for them , whilst our affections fight against them . what frier will not laugh in his coule at this your opinion , that it is lawfull to give papists just offence ? well , you never shall have my consent , to combate as our churches champion , against rome for the protestant cause , untill you have learnt more skill in fencing , and not to lye at so open a guard . and if you hold it lawfull to give papists just offence , by the next returne you will hold it lawfull to give just offence to all , which are termed popishly affected , the gangrean of which expression , is by some extended to taint as sound and hearty protestants , as any be in england . sermon page . 24. that it is to be desired , not hoped for , a plat'oes common-wealth and moores vtopia these phrases are pleasing but unfeerable . examiner . hee that lookes abroad shall soone have his sight terminated , but the more hee goes on the more besees , and that which closed his prospect opens then into new discoveries ; if you see no perfect reformation as you stand , do not therefore say there is none , they that stand higher and on a holyer mountaine perhapps see farher , you that stand in the horizon g of prelacy cannot see much beyond it ; corruption is deceitfull and makes us like adam see all generations in our selves , because we will not be pefectly reformed , letus not argue our iudgments into a beleeife that we cannot it let us think it as possible to be the best , as easie to be the worst . let-us not thinke that a 〈◊〉 common wealth or a mores vtopia which for ought we know is reall and existent , there is under the gospell i a royall preisthood , an holy nation , a peculier people , and certainly had formes k ages lived to see , but the discovery of latter times , they would have admired their owne ignorance and our happinesse . treatis . f. they that stand higher and on a holyer mountaine , perhapp's see further ) i deny it not . but if they see a perfect church on earth they see it in a trance or vision . g. you that stand in the horizon of prelacy , cannot see much beyond it . ) misse not the matter , to hitt my person , if i stand in the horizon of prelacy , i stand no more for it , then it stands , with gods glory , and will in his word . because you taxe me with dimnesse of sight , i will strive by my study to get the best advantage ground i can , i will begg of god , to animate mine eyes with his * eyesalve , i will be carefull to keepe mine eyes from being bloodshot , by animating any to cruelty in this unnaturall warr . and know sir that they who stand in the horizon of presbutary , or independency , are subject also to errors , and mistakes . as delight in old customes may deceive some , so desire of novelty , may blind the eyes of others . god helpe us all we are badd at the best . h. because we will not be perfectly reformed , let us not argue our iudgments into a beleife that we cannot ) a distinction or two of perfection and your fallacy will perfectly appeare . some saints in the scripture phrase are stiled perfect , but then it is comparatively as they stand in opposition to * wicked men who have no goodnesse at all in them . or else they are called perfect as so denominated from their better part ( good reason the best godfather , should name the child ) their regenerate halfe , which desires and delights in endeavoring towards perfection , or lastly perfection is taken for integrity , sincerity , and unrightnesse opposite to inward hippocrisie , and in such a perfection the heart may have many defects by the by , but no dissimulation in the maine service of god . such a perfection as this , men may have , yea must have , in this life , and without such a perfection here , no hope of any happinesse hereafter . but as for an exact , legall perfection ( such as some papists dreame of , and most anabaptists doate on ) a perfection able to stand before gods iustice , without the support of his mercy , it is utterly impossible for mortall men to attaine unto it . in which sence in my sermon , i said that a perfect reformation of a church in this world is difficult to be prescribed , and impossible to be practised . yea let me tell you sir ( cautious comming from good will , deserve to be heard , if not heeded ) if you persist in this opinion of exact perfection , i conceive your condition dangerous . elisha told king ioram , beware that thou passe not * such a place , for thither the aramites are come downe . i may frinedly tell you , presse not one any further in this point , for spirituall pride lyeth hard by in waite , and the ambush thereof will surprise you . for my owne part , as i hate my badnesse , so i hugge the confession that i am badd , and gods children , finde both contentment and comfort in knowing they cannot bee perfect . hence they learne , ( what soule so bad , which hath not sometimes some holy-day thoughts ) to loath earth to love heaven , to runne from themselves , to fly to their saviour , to pittie others , to pray heartily for them , to hope comfortably of them , in a word this doctine , abateth pride , increaseth charity , and confoundeth censuring . yea i solemnely professe that i would not herein change my doctrine for yours , to have much to boote . should i say ; that i could be perfect , both my head and my heart would give my tongue the lye . and one of the best hopes , i have to goe to heaven , is that i am sure i deserve hell . i remember a strange , but true and memerable speech of reverend mr. fox * to this effect , that his graces sometimes did him harme , whilst his sinne did him much good . a wonderfull thing , yet sometimes so it commthe to passe , god making a cordiall for us of our owne wickednesse , thereby teaching us humility . i. there is under the gospel a royall priesthood , an holy nation a peculiar people . ) true , here these things are sincerely begunne , and hereafter fully perfected , for in this life there is still some basenesse , even in the royall priesthood , impiety in the holy nation , commonnesse in the peculiar people . and i pray remember you are to prove , that a whole church may bee perfectly reformed in this world . for though it were granted that some men might be perfect , yet it followeth not thereupon , that any one church is existent on earth , consisting intirely all of perfect members . hipocrites are of so glutenous a nature , they will stick close in every visible church . they cannot be devided , who cannot be discerned , except one could borrow gods touchstone of hearts , such shining drosse will ever passe current in this kingdome of grace . k. had former ages lived , but to see the discovery of latter times ) if by former ages you meane the time of popery , i concurre with you . if you understand the times of the primitivs fathers , i suspend my suffrage till the next paragrave . but if you extend it to the age of christ and his apostles , i flatly discent . nor am i sensible of any such late discoveries in religion though many recoveries thanks be to god there have been , in rescuing the faith from romish superstition . l. they would have admired their owne ignorance and our happinesse . ) by our happinesse , i suppose you meane , what lately we had before this warre began , and what we had not the happinesse to keepe , and wee trust in due time , god will restore to us againe . otherwise , as for our present woefull condition , i would not wish our friends , or envie our foes such happinesse . sermon paragarffe 32. there are some now a dayes talke of a great light mainfested in this age more then before . indeede we modernes have a mighty advantage of the antients , whatsoever was theirs by industry may be ours , all contribute themselves to us who live in this latter age . examiner . if we had no more light , then what you insinuate were seene from the fathers , why doe we see more , and more cleerely and further ? he that sees far , must either have a good fight or a cleare light , and sure in this age wee have both , those errours which our fathers saw for dimme truthes we see for herisies ; so surely both our eyes , and our light are better ; for the light which our fathers have in their lamps can discover , but so much to us , as it did to them , and we know our discovery is such , as wee are able to see the shadow which followed them , even that mistery , which was working in their dayes both in prelacy and ceremony , who will deny but that the cloud of antichristianisme , was thicke in their times , and then the light could not be so glorious , as now when those clouds grow thinner , and more attenuated by the preaching of the gospel . treatise . to cut off all occasion and pretence of caviling , wee will shew , god willing in what respect the fathers , for knowledge excelled , and exceeded us , and in what respect wee modernes goe beyond them . they had a threefold advantage above us . 1. of sight . 2. of light . 3. and of a nearer object . first , of a better light , being men of eminent natural parts , improved with excellent learning , and to the easterne fathers , the greeke tongue , the language of the new teastament was naturall , so that it costeth us much paines and sweat but to come to the place whence they started . secondly , of a brighter light . as their constancie in persecution was great , so no doubt the heate of their zeale was attended with a proportionable light , and heavenly illumination god doing much for them that suffer much for him . especially in those points wherein they encountred hereticks , they were more then men , and went beyond themselves , as st. athanasius against the arians , st. augustine against the pelagians and donatists , from whom our moderne brownists differ no more , then the same man differs from himselfe in new cloathes . 3. of a nearer object . they living closer to christs times , could therefore better understand the sence of the church in the doctrine delivered to the apostles . here we must know that apostles , and apostolick men as they wrote gods word in their epistles , and gospels for the profit of all posterity , so for the instruction of their present age they also * traditioned it in their preaching by word of mouth to the people of those times , not that they delivered any thing viva voce contrary or dissertent from what they wrote , or that ( as the papists stile for their traditions ) they supplyed and enjoyned any thing as necessary to salvation , which otherwise was wanting in the scripture but the selfe same things which they wrote in the new testament , they also delivered in their sermons , and in their preaching delated upon them , wherefore the prime primative age , having ( as i may say ) two strings to their bow , scripture , and preaching , must needes bee allowed to have had the clearest apprehention of the meaning of heavenly misteries , and as the children * of israell served the lord all the dayes of iehossuah and all the dayes of the elders , who outlived iehossuah , who had seene all the great workes of the lord which he did for israell , in like manner wee may conclude , that the greatest puritie and the clearest light of the church , lasted so long as any , within sight , hearing , or memory of christ or his apostles preaching , or miracles , did survive . now to hold the scales even , we in like manner have a three fold advantage over the fathers . first a degree of experimentall light more then they had or could have ; having seene the whole conduct , manuaging and progresse of religion since their times , whereby ( with a litle helpe of history ) a devine who is under sixtie in age , may be a bove sixteene hundred in experience . secondly , we have the benefits of the fathers bookes , a mightie advantage if we were as carefull to use it to gods glory , as we are ready to bragg of it for our owne credit . and here i must complaine of many mens lazinesse . indeed a learned man * compareth such as live in the latter times in respect of the fathers to dwarffes standing on giants shoulders . but then if we will have profitt by the fathers learning , we must take paines to mount to the tope of their shoulders . but if like idle dwarfes , we still do but stand on the ground , our heads will not reach to their girdles , it is not enough to through the bookes of the fathers , togeather on an heape , and then making their workes our footestoolle to stand on the outside and covers of them , as if it were no more , but v p and ride boasting now far we behold beyond them . no , if we expect to gett advantage by their writings , we must open their bookes , read understand , compare , digest and meditate on them . and i am affraid many that least looke into the fathers , boast most that they looke beyond them . thirdly . wee have the advantage of a darknesse removed by gods goodnesse from our eyes , which in some matters did dimme the sight of the fathers . namely the mistery of iniquity which wrought in their times , & now is taken away in the protestant church . that bramble of rome , ( soone will it prick , which will be a thorne , ) which afterwards lorded it over the vine , olive , and figtree , beganne very timely to play his parte , and the man of sin , then but an infant ( and every thing is pretty when it is yonge , ) was unawares dandled on the knees of many a devout monke and rockt in the cell of many an holy hermit , who litle suspected that then voluntary sequestring themselves to enjoy heavenly thoughts , would by degrees degenerate to be in after ages the cover of pride , lust and lazinesse . now seing this man of sinne , is dead already in the protestant church , and hath a consumption attended with the hecktick fever in all other places , the taking away of popish superstition may justly be accounted the third advantage which our age hath . by the way we must take heed of a fault whereof many are guilty . for some are ready to challenge every thing in the practise of the fathers which doth not please them presently to be popish , and pretend they tast superstition in whatsoever themselves distast . o say they , the fathers lived when the mystery of iniquity did worke , and hence they infer that it is evidence enough without further tryall to condemne any cerimonies used by them , because they were used by them . the way indeede to make short assises , but perjur'd iudges , whereas it is not enough to say , but to shew that they are superstitious , to anotomize , and dissect the popery conteined in them , demonstrating where it crosseth the word of god , wheras on the contrary all wise and charitable men ought to esteeme the practises of the primitive church not only to be innocent , but usefull and honourable till they be legally convicted to be otherwise . if any object that the fathers had another disadvantage , that besides the spreading of popery ; other heresies did also spring and sprout apace in that time , to the darkening of the light of the truth , let them know that such opposition only gave truth the opportunity to tryumph , and the teeth of error filled it the brighter heresies , in eodom seculo quo nat a , damnat a equos errores patrum aetas tulit , eos & sustulis , condemnig them in synods and councells , and in this point to be an equall empire betwixt the ancients and us , we must consider that we live in the later age , and commonly bad humors which have visited the whole body do settle at last in the leggs and lowest parts , with us sects and schismes do also abound , and some heresies first set a broach in the primitive times , now runne a tilt with all their dredgs in out dayes . thus we see how the fathers were both before and behind us , for knowledge , and wee therein both above and beneath them in severall respects . see the wisdome and goodnesse of god , how he hath sweely tempered things together . so good that all have some , so wise that none have all . and how easie may this controvercy be accommodated , whether ours or the fathers light were the greatest , where if the difference be but cleerly understood , the parties are fully reconciled . and now i conceive having answered you in grosse , i need not apply my selfe to any perticulers of your examination . examiner . the gospel doth worke m and wind its beames into the world according to the propheticall seasons for revelation , many propheticall truthes were sealed up , and those not unsealed but successively , and as our generations after may have a starre rising to them which we have not so we may have beames n and radiations , and shootings which our fathers had not . the apostles o had not all their truths and light revealed at once , some early , some late , some not till the holy ghost was bestowed . revelations are graduall and the vaile is not taken off at once , not in one age . we honour the fathers as men in their generations famous , their light was glorious in its degree and quality , but they had not all the degrees attainable , they had a light for their owne times , and we for ours , and who cannot thinke that we are rising into that age p wherein god shall powre his spirit upon all flesh , and wherein the light of the moone shall be as the light of the sunne and the light of the sunne as the light of seaven dayes . treatise . you hover in generalls , and seeme to me desirous that your reader should understand more then you are willing to expresse ; my opinion breifly is this . that no new revelations , or new infused light in essentiall points of religion , is bestowed on any now-adayes , but that the same light hath in as plentifull a measure beene given to former ages , especially to the age wherein the apostles lived , and when the faith was once delivered to the saints , and by them sett downe in the scripture , and that then so perfectly and compleatly , that it needed not the accessions of any future revelations . i confesse that men by searching the scripture ( that oyle will never leave increasing as long as more vessells be still brought ) and diligent prayer to god may and do arive daily at a clearer understanding of many places of gods word which they had not before . these words ; thou art peter and on this rock will i build my church , and that place , this is my body , are now more truly and plainly understood then they were 200 yeares agoe , when the popes supremacy was as falsly founded on the former as transubstantiation was unjustly inferred from the latter . however these were not revelations of new truthes , but reparations of ould . for the prime primative church received and embraced the same , the saints * in the time of popery sung as it were a new song , a song not new but renewed , not new in it selfe but perchance to the hearers , and such are many truthes , which are preached in our age in the protestant church . they that maintaine the contrary opinion of moderne revelations of new essentiall truths doe a three fold mischiefe therein . first they lay an aspertion of ignorance and imperfection of knowledge on the apostles themselves , and this is no lesse then scandalum magnatum . secondly they much unsettle men in matters of religion , and produce a constant inconstancy and scepticall hovering in all oppinions and as the athenians erected an altar to the unknowne god , so men must reserve a blancke in their soules therin to write truths at yet unknown , when they shall be revealed . thus men will never know when their creede is ended , and will daily waver in that truth which they have in possession , whilst they waite for a clearer and firmer as yet in revertion . thirdly they sixe on the scripture an imputation of imperfection and such as talke of new revelations of truth , may well remember the passage in the old revelation . * if any man shall add unto these things , god shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this booke . and it seemes to mee all one in effect whether men peece the scriptures , with old traditions , or new revelations ; and thus the papist and anabaptist are agreed like men in a circle going so farre from each other with their faces , till their backes meete together . and i professe i should sooner trust a tradition containing in it nothing crosse to the scripture and comming to mee recommended from the primitive times , and countenanced with the practise of the church in all ages , then a new upstart revelation . the best is , wee have no neede to trust either , whilst we have gods word alone sufficient to relie on . the result of all is this , we have now a-dayes no new truths revealed , but old ones either more fairely cleared or more firmely assented to , no new starres of revelation arise in any hearts . if any such doe burne and blaze there , they are but comments which will fade at last . in a word this age is not happie with any new truths , but guiltie of many old lyes . yea , it rendereth it suspitious , that some men are going about some what , which they cannot justifie by the old knowne lawes of god , because they beginne to broach preparative doctrines , introductorie of new revelations : distrusting ( as it seemes ) the scripture , the old iudge , as not for their turnes , because they provide for an appeale to an other vmpirer ; and if those are justly accounted dangerous members in the church , who would bring in innovations in ceremonies , then pretenders of new revelations in essentiall points of doctrine are so much the greater offenders , by how much doctrine is more necessary , and fundamentall in a church then ceremonies . but i will answer some passages in your examination particularlie . m. the gospel doth worke and winde its beames into the world , according to the propheticall seasons for revelotions . ) distinguish we heare , betwixt matters of fact , and matters of faith . matters of fact being foretold in the scripture , are best understood when they are accomplished : in which respect the longer the world lasteth , the clearer men see & the plainer they understand such predictions . the seales in the revelations were successively opened , the trumpets successively blowne , the vialls successively powred out , and the things imported in and by them , are successively performed . wherefore time is the best comentator on the propheticall parts of the bible , dies die●● docet . and to day , which is yesterdaies schoolemaster will be scholler to tomorrow , in which respect the * prophets words are most true . many shall runne too and fro , and knowledge shall be increased . but now , as for matters of faith , they were at once , and for ever , fully , and freely , delivered at the first to the apostles , and so from them to us , and that so perfectly , & compleatly , they neede no new revelations , quo ad materium , though quoad modum , old truths may now have a new measure to be more clearely understood then in the darke times of popery . n. we may have beames , and radications , and shootings , which our fathers had not . ) for beames and radication of knowledge , i have delivered my oppinion : but as for shootings , god knowes wee have many such as our fathers never had ; god in his mercy cease such shootings or else in his iustice direct the bulletts to such markes , as in truth have been the troublers of our israel . o. the apostles had not all their truths and light , revealed at once , some early , some late , some not till the holy ghost was bestowed . ) all this is most true which you say , the apostles at first were ( as we may say ) freshmen , newly admitted into christs company . then they tooke their first degree of knowledge , when sent forth to preach the gospel , mat. 10. to the iewes alone in their masters life time . they commenced in a higher knowledge after christ his resurrection : and after his assention , assended yet higher in spirituall illuminations : lastly , after the comming of the holy ghost , they proceeded doctors in deede ; i meane , they then had the completion and consumation of all understanding necessary to salvation . now sir , consider that after this time , they wrote the new testament , and therein all essentialls for us to know and doe for our soules health , so that we now doe deduce and derive our knowledge , not from the apostles in their infancy , or minority of judgement , but from them having attained to the top , and verticall point of their perfectest skill in heavenly misteries . p. and who cannot thinke wee are rising into that age , wherein god will power his spirit upon all flesh , &c. ) what proportion doth this beare with what you said not long since , prophesying that our marian times did approach too fast ? when nothing was light but the bonefiers to burne the marters . i will not deny but this great sun may arrise , but the reigning vices of the time are but an ill morning starre to harbinger the rising thereof . we have taken the st. shippe from those in heaven , but have no more holinesse in our selves here on earth . what betwixt the sins which brought this warre , and the sinnes this warre hath brought , they are sad prefages of better times . never was gods name more taken in vaine by oathes and imprecations . the lords day , formerly profained with mirth , is now profained with malice , and now as much broken with drummes as formerly with a tuber and pipe . superiours never so much slighted . so that what * naball said sullenly , and ( as he applyed in ) falsly , we may say sadly & truly , there be many servants now adayes , that breake away , everyman from his master . killing is now the only trade in fashion , & adultery never more common , so that our nation ( in my opinion ) is not likely to confound the spirituall whore of babilon , whilst corporall whoredom is in here very where committed , no where punished . their so usuall , that they have stollen away the word of stealing and hid it under the name of plundering . lying both in word & print grown epidemicall , so that it is questionable whether gunnes or printing , ( two inventions of the same countrey and standing ) at the present doe more mischeife in this kingdome . it is past covering of our neighbours houses , when it is come to violent keeping them . he therefore that doth seriously consider , the grievousnesse and generality of these sinnes , will rather conclude that some darkenesse of desolation , then any great light is likely to follow upon them . god i confesse in mercy may doe much , both to pardon and prosper us , and can extract light out of darkenesse , but whether he will or no , i ( though confident of his power , ) see little cause to hope of his pleasure herein , and though herein i must confesse , many of these inormities . may , ( though not wholy be excused , yet ) be something extenuated , by pleading the unavoidable necessities which warre doth cause , yet surely wee shall answer to god for causing this warre by our crying sinnes , and transgressions . q wherein the light of the moone shall be as the light of the sunne , and the light of the sun as the light of the seven dayes . ) this , for ought i can finde to the contrary , was accomplished at christ comming , and the generall giving of the gospel to the gentiles , with the sending of gods spirit miraculously upon them , sure i am a paralell place of the prophet was then fulfilled , by the exposition of saint * peter himselfe , and it shall come to passe in the last dayes ( saith god ) i will power out my spirit upon all flesh : and your sonnes and your daughters shall prophesie , and your young-men shall see visions , and your old men shall dreame dreames . these words having the advantage of that date in the last daies , might with the more colour have beene alleadged by you , and applyed to these times , to prove some speciall revelations in our dayes , had not the apostle marred your mart , and prevented you by applying the prophesie to the primative times . examiner . but we see the policy r of commending the fathers light to our generation , for could you prevaile with us to set our dialls by that , you then might reforme our church by the canterburian gnomen , and so set us backe to a falsly-reputed , primitive reformation . treatise . r. but wee see the policie of commending the fathers . ) i protest before almighty god i have neither base nor by respect in praising the fathers . saint pauls blamed * peter at antioach , because he was to be blamed . i in the like manner commend the light of fathers , because it is to bee commanded not for any favour or flattery . a falsely reputed primitive reformation , i abhorre from my heart , & i presume our church is to wise to be cosened therewith : if canterbury hath misbehaved himselfe , his friends for him desire no more , and foes to him should grant no lesse , then a legall triall . but insult not on any mans sufferings , organs i dare say , are not so offensive in churches as the making of musicke on men in misery . time was when you sett as much by a smile from canterbury , as he still set●s litle by a scoffe from you . sermon paragraffe 13. 14. 15. 16. the qualification for reformers , the decent burialls of such ceremonies , as are taken from the fathers , the honorable reservation to our first reformers . examiner . that it may appeare i looke not only at the worst of the sermon , there are excellent truths in it , and it is pitty they are not betters scituated , i could alwaies wish to see a diamond set in gold . these are good positions , and in their pages not without their enamill of witt , yet there is a policy to write faire in one leafe , though you t make a blot in another , but i cannot let these passe without some observation . treatise . s. and it is pitty they are not better scituated , i could alwaies wish , to see a diamond set in gold . ) i cannot blame you , especially if the diamond be their owne . but what meane you by this expression ; would you have had the truths in my sermon to have beene set in the gold of rich & glittering language . truly i could not go to the cost thereof , especially on so short warning , wherein the sermon was made . how ever a diamond , is a diamond though set in home , whereby the luster thereof may be somewhat dimmed , but the worth thereof no whit deminished . but in one respect i must confesse these truthes were ill scituated , that they stood too neere to a captions reader , who tooke causelesse exception at them . t. yet there is apolicie to write faire in one leafe , though you make a blot in another ) shew me sir , where these blotts bee . for as yet i am more troubled to know my fault , then my defence . examiner . first for qualification , v i dare say , never age afforded more eminent in this kimgdome , their calling lawfull , their pietie exemplary , their knowledge radiant , their courage experienced through a legion of difficulties , their prudence in the conduct of a businesse , though opposed with the policy , and malignity of a grand and potent enemy . treatise . v. for their qualification i dare say . ) if you dare say it , i dare not to gain say it . their calling no doubt is lawfull , if the supreame powers concurres with them . of their pietie , which consists in their hearts , god alone is iudge . i will not dispute against their radiant knowledge , nor fight with their experienced courage , and it were folly in me to oppose their prudence . let not the perfections of king davids * subjects be numbered . god make their konwledge , their courage , their prudence , an hundred fold more then it is , and may the eyes of my lord the king see the same , to his comfort and honour . examiner . and for the decent , buriall of ceremonies , and super stitions w of the fathers ) they shall have a parliament of senators , and an assembly of devines to lay them in their grave , and i dare say a godly congregation in the kingdome to sing a psalme at their funerall ; and will not this be a very decent x buriall ? and for the honorable reservation , to the reformer● , and their memories , our devines and reformers , now have ever made resorte and appeale to the truths they delivered ; and in those times when beza , and calvin , and peter mertir were set lowest , till the master of the feast came lately , and bid them sitt up higher , a caistan and bellarmine , and a councell of trent , i am sure had more honor from the devinity of the other yeare , or your times , so farre we admire the reformers , as to love their truths and to pittie their errors . but i will not say much , errors may be more provoked , then remedied with over-handling ; let us be wise in the colours of good and evill , though it be an honest , yet it is a dangerous mistake to many our freinds , and to few our enemies . treatise . w. as for the decent buriall of ceremonies and superstitions of the father . ) you are cunning to improve your selfe on my words . in my sermon i made a double supposition , fist , if there be found in the fathers practice any ceremonies smacking of paganisme or popery . secondly , if the same can be justly challenged to be continued in our church now , ( as if two suppositions made a position ) you flatly , infer & perumtorily conclude such superstitions are in our church . i should be loth to sell wares to such a chapman , and to trust his honesty in measuring of them out , who hath such a slight in slipping his fingers , that gives him an inch and hee will take an ell , you might have don better , to have could us what the perticulers of these superstitions are . x. and will not this be a decent buriall . ) the pleasantnesse of your witt doth please me , some mirth in this sadd times doth well . but you might have been pleased to have taken notice , that by the decent buriall of superstitions ceremonies , ( if any such can be proved to be in our church ) i ment the removing of them in that manner , as might give no just offence to any , as i have largely discoursed of before . however as you say , let but a parliament lay them in the ground and i shall not moorne for their death but rejoyce at their solemne and legall interment . y. had more honour from the devinitie of the other yeare , or your times . ) the more shame for such , if any who under valued such worthy men . and blessed be god that they have recovered their former esteem . for my part they have not with me regained any new degree of honor , but still keepe the selfesame place in my valuation of them whereof they ever were peaceably possessed . examiner . if i be now examined what reformation i aime at , i answere , my endeavour here , was only to take out of the way such rubbish as others would bring in ; if we can but cleare the passage , we go farre in the worke , and in the meane time let us like ioshuas spies , bring no evill report upon the land we are going to . treatise . z. my endeavour here was only to take out of the way such rubbish as others would bring in . ) whether rather , you have not brought in such rubbish , which others have taken away , be it reported to the juditious reader . a. let us like ioshuas spies , bring no evill report upon the land we are going to . ) by ioshuas spies , you meane those who accompanied caleb , & ioshun , to spie the land of cauaan , and these were guilty of a three fold fault . first they spake truth with an ill intent , to disharten the israelites , in their reporting of the strength of the country . secondly , they speake more then truth , raising the walls of the cannanitish cities by their hyperbolyes as high as heaven , * lastly they suppressed the most materiall point , not incouraging the people , ( as caleb and ioshua did , by the assured assistance of god against their enemies . but i conceive my selfe , ( against whome your words are darted ) to be innocent in the foresaid perticulers . examiner . but suppose this perfect reformation , b or church , were among the c {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the ragione di sacro dominio . he were no wise d , nor faithfull devine who would not preserve that secret e for holy advantages , t' is gods owne designe and his apostles to hould out a perfection to us , be perfect as your heavenly father , and some pastors for the perfection of the saints , i commend bodin and tacitus for their politicall faithfulnesse , they writt farre yet would not sunne the imperiall , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} nor make them popular . treatise . b. but suppose this perfect reformation were e. c. ) it seemes you suspect the strength of your outworkes , that you so seasonably retire to your castle , now at last condemning this doctrine , not as false , but unfitting to be preached . c. were among the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} i thinke you would say {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} or otherwise sir my learning will not extend to understand this your new greeke . d. he were no wise and faithfull devine ) so then you conclude me a foolish & deceitful minister , & i had rather you should call me so ten times , then my guiltie conscience should tell me so once , for concealing of a necessary truth . e. who would not preserve that secret for holy advantages . ) first the question is , wheither or no it lay in my power if i would to keepe this point secret . what your people at hestertonn in yorkeshire are , you best know in this doctrine , i was not the teacher but the remembrancer of my people at the savoy , from whom had i closely covered it with both my hands , they would have seene it through all my fingers . besides what hope can one have to keepe it secret when ( as you say ) so great and glorious a light is shining now-a-dayes . but if i could , i ought not to suppresse it . let popish tenents be shurt in a cloister , and sicke opinions keepe their chamber , god never lighted this truth for us to put it under a bushell , it being alwaies seasonable to bee divulged , and now dangerous to bee concealed . these holy advantages , ( i would not count them advantages were they not holy , ) arise from preaching this point . first , it a wakens men from their idle dreames of their conceited perfection of a church here , and too many i feare have made this common-wealth here woefully militant , under pretence here to make the church happily triumphant . secondly , to teach all christians ( majestrates and ministers most especially ) as industry so patience , daily to doe , and constantly to suffer no whitt disheartned in their endeavours to perfection . knowing though things bee badd , after their best labours to amend them , that this proceedes from the inevitable vanity , to which the creature is subject . thirdly , to weane men from this world , making them to love and long for the time of the restitution of all things , when this world as a watch out of tune shall not onely bee taken assunder and scoured , but also have all the wheeles made new and then bee perfectly reformed . yea sir , let us try whether you or i proceeding on our contrary principles , shall more effectually perswade a reformation , you will tell the world that a perfect reformation in this life is attaineable , even to the anticipating of heaven heare , and this you will presse with all your power and flowers of retorick , and all little enough to performe so unsavory an untruth . now see sit what mischiefes will follow hereupon . 1. because one falsehood requires more to support it , you must call in other auxilliary falsities to defend this , and so engage your selfe in a multitude of errors . 2. seeing flights and shifts can never last long , your forgery will be detected . 3. you are lyable to heavens pillorie to bee punnished for holy fraud . 4. you will scarce be trusted afterwards though telling truth , being once convicted and ever suspected of falshood . as for those whom you have deceived unto the utmost of their endevours of reformation , on your false perswasion that the perfection thereof may bee had in this world , though their labours therein bee very forward at the first , yet soone will they wither and weaken with the graine in the gospel that wanted roote ( no roote and a false roote are the same in effect , ) and gods blessing cannot be expected on the deceitfull proceedings . as for mee who have no cunning in such hunting , but please my selfe with iacob to bee a plaine man , i would goe another way to worke , and tell them the worst first , that indeede it is vaine to expect a perfect reformation in this world . however let them comfort themselves , that wee serve such a master who accepts of the will for the deede , and knowes whereof we are made . hee remembreth that wee are but dust . and therefore let us doe our best , and strugle against our infirmities , being confident that god in christ will pardon what is amisse , and reward what is good in us . and i doubt not but such doctrine by gods blessing will both take deeper impression in mens hearts , and bring forth better fruits of amendment in their lives . f. i commend bodin and tacitus for their politicall faithfulnesse , they writt far , yet would not sun the imperiall {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} nor make them popular . ) i confesse it to bee unfitting , yea dangerous to impart misteries of state to private people , for such iewels are to bee lockt in a safe and sure cabinet , the bosoms of polititians , not so in necessary points of divinity , for though every private man hath not a state to governe , hee hath a soule to save , and therefore must be partner in all wholsome doctrines . indeede in some cases , preachers may though not finally suppresse , yet seasonably conceale , or rather warily deferre the publishing of some points of religion , first when they are not of absolute concernement to salvation , & the minister by his christian discretion plainely foresees , that all the good which rationally can bee expected to redound from preaching such a truth , will not countervaile the ill , which in probability will inevitably follow thereupon ; or else when the auditors are not capeable as yet of such difficult doctrines . christ himselfe did fitt his wines to his bottles , powring in not what hee could give , but they could take , least otherwise hee should rather spill his liquor , then fill his vessells . neither of these cases now alledged take place concerning the publishing of the doctrine of the impossibility of the churches perfection in this world . for we may by gods blessing justly expect and promise to ourselves and others much good and comfort from the preaching thereof , as we have largely proved before . nor dare i so much to disparage the times we live in , ( now it being above a hundred yeares since luthers reformation ) as to count them to have age so much , and knowledge so litle , as not yet to be capable with safety & profit of so plaine & true a doctrine , some shortly expect the day of iudgment , and sure then the world is already come to age to understand truths , except shee come not out of her mynority till just shee be ready to die and to be dissolved . g. would not sunne the imperiall {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . ) godly secrets in religion in some respects may be sunn'd . first that thereby they may be tryed , ( all truths have eagles eyes ) whether or no they can behold , and beare the sunne beames . secondly , because our * saviour hath said , what i tell you in darknesse , that speake in the light , and what you heare in the eare that preach you upon the house toppe . lastly , that by proclaiming them the godly may have an oppertunity to receive them , and the wicked be rendred unexcusable for refusing them , when such truths are made generally knowne . h. nor make them popular . ) i distinguish on the word popular . if it be taken , as generally it is , ( use having confined a word of generall acception in it selfe , to an ill sence ) to court the good will of people for any private or sinester end , it is utterly unlawfull for popularity , which is necessary love , in a prince , is unlawfull lust , in a subject , who may not court the kings wife , for to him a lone , are the people married in a politicke relation . all honest men therefore disclaime , to make truths popular in this sence , to impart them to the vulgar to gaine any vaine applause . yea , consider herein , whether you rather be not faultie in making the imperiall {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to bee popular , who incite and incourage ordinary people , to make a publique reformation . but truths in divinity must be made popular , that is bee communicated to all people , in true sinceritie for the saving of their soules . the * apostle , calleth it the common salvation , and therefore it must be preached to all in common , our sermons must , aswell be ad populum as ad clerum . otherwise such monopolies are illegall and distructive to the state of the church , for any ministers to engrosse any wholsome doctrine to themselves , and not imparte it to their parish , except in the cases afore mentioned . examiner . apology . i have now done ( i will not say ) refuting , but committing errors , i am afraid my hast at this time , hath made me mend one fault , only with another . treatise . i will not oppose yours , but annex my owne conclusion . if i should deny my owne many imperfections , my practise would confute what my pen hath maintained . reader , for the matter of what i have written , i require thee , in gods name do me iustice , for the manner , method , or words thereof , i request thee , as i am a man shew mee favour . thinke not the worse of the truths , for my sake , but thinke the better of me , for the truths sake which i have defended . and conceive me not to be of a brawling and controversiall disposition , who do desire and will pray for an agreement from my soule , so long as my speech shall serve me . yea if i should chance to be stricken dumbe , i would with zacharia make signes for table bookes and write the name of that which i desire above all earthly thing is peace . god send it , amen . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a70084e-410 quid amplius praepotenti & immortali deo tribuimus si quod eius proprium est cripimus ? bodin . de repub. l. 1. c. ult notes for div a70084e-910 2 cor. 1. 17. 18. acts 25. 16. notes for div a70084e-1460 2 sam. 3. 14. 1 cor 7. 26. gen. 31. 27. gen. 31. 31. luk. 8. 18. acts 17. 11. act. 20. 38. notes for div a70084e-1780 acts 24. 5. pro. 11. 15. bodin . de repub. lib. 1. p 50. iudg. 19. 29. 1 king. 19. 14. rev. 3 16. mat. 11. 12. notes for div a70084e-2380 camdens eliz. p. 367. a fox . acts monum. pag. 1064 b in a book of directions to travel . notes for div a70084e-5350 1 king. 13. 1● . sam. 13. 19. jude ● . 1 the doctrine of the impossibility of a churchesperfection in this world , being well understood , begets not lazinesse but the more industry in wise reformer . phil. 3. 13. bishop montague , franciscus , secta clara . that the church of england cannot justly be taxed with superstitious inporations . pro. 9. 13. a foolish woman is clamorous . ephe. 4. 31. wrath and anger , and clamour . 1 thes. 4. 11. study to be quiet . bucer in lib. de regno christi . a ex perpetuâ ecclesiarum observatione ab ipsis iam apostiolis v●d mus , visnm & hoc esse spiritui sancto ut inter presbiteros quibus ecclesiarum procuratio potissimum est comm●ssa ●nus ecclesiarum , & totius sacri ministerii curam g●ral singularem caque cnra & solicitudina cunctis preerat aliis , qua de cansa ep scopi nomen huiusmodi summis ecclesiarum curatoribus est peculiaritur attributum bucerus de regno christi lib. 2. cap. 12. b m. greenham in his grave counsels in the word atheisme , pag. 3. c quam horrendum illi faciunt divina maiestati contumeliam qui templa domini habent pro de ambulacris locisque tam prophanis ut in illis quaevis impura & prophana cum similibus suis garriant & pertractent . — haec certa tanta est divini numinis contemptio ut ea vel sola pridem meriti sumus omnino de terra exterminari & quidem suppliciis gravissimus multari bucerus de regno christi lib. 1. cap. 10. nehem. 8 1. 3 how far private christians , ministers and subordinate magistrates are to concur to the advancing of a publike reformation . 2 sam. 20. 1. 4. what parts therein are onely to be acted by the supreame power . mar. 5. 3. 28. 5. of the progresse and praise of passive obedience . est haec pontificiorum tessera crudelitas , aliud est protestan tium symbolum clementia . isti occidunt , hi occidunt laurentius humphreys in respon. ad epistolas camp●ani . deut. 2. 5. 2 king. 14. 10 cro. 15. 19. pro. 20 19. & 24. 21. & 26. 17. & 20. 3. exo. 21. 33. 34 6. that no extraordinary excitations , incitations or inspirations are bestowed from god on men in hese dayes . gen. 22. 2. judg. 16. 30. exod. 12. 36. this appeares because in the prophet he is stiled governour of judah , hag. 1. 14. and that at the self same time when ezra came thither , see luthers chronology in 40. millenarco . auferenda idola , non potest quisquam iubere privatus aug. cont. literos utilium lib. 2. cap. 92. ezra 4. 24. drūsius in pentetuchen ex r. aben-ezrah . pro. 3. 32. ps. 148. 6. rom. 13. 1 in publicos hostes , omnius homo miles tertullianus . 2 king. 9. 35. mat. 5. 29. that it is utterly unlawfull to give any just offence to the papists or to any men whatsoever . 1. cor. 10. 32. 2 cor. 63. * 2. sam. 11. 35. * gall . 2. 11 * 1 king. 18. 29. * rev. 3. 18. * sanctorum nonnulli perfecti dicuntur respectu mundanorum , qui negligunt res divinas nec ingrediuntur unquam viam profectionis amb. com. in epist : ad phil. cap. 3. * 2 king. 6. 9. * cited by mr. capel in his booke of temptation . 8. what advantage the fathers had of us in learning , and religion , and what wee heve of them . * {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . 1 cor. 11. 23. * iudg. 2. 7. * nos nani sumus stantes super humeros gygantum . hol. cott. . 9. now new light or new essentiall truths are or can be revealed in this age . * revel. 14. 3. * reve. 21. 18 * dan. 12. 4. * 1 sam. 25. 10 * ioel 2. 28. acts 2. 17. * gal. 2. 11. * 2 sam. 3 : paragraffe 24. * 1 dut. 28. 10. that the doctrine of the churches imperfection may safely bee preached and cannot honestly bee concealed . * math. 10. 26 * iude. 3. considerations touching the true way to suppress popery in this kingdom by making a distinction between men of loyal and disloyal principles in that communion : on occasion whereof is inserted an historical account of the reformation here in england. lloyd, william, 1627-1717. 1677 approx. 297 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 91 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a48816 wing l2676 estc r2677 12412562 ocm 12412562 61564 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a48816) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 61564) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 767:16) considerations touching the true way to suppress popery in this kingdom by making a distinction between men of loyal and disloyal principles in that communion : on occasion whereof is inserted an historical account of the reformation here in england. lloyd, william, 1627-1717. [16], 164 p. printed for henry brome ..., london : 1677. errata: prelim. p. [16]. includes bibliographical references. this item can also be found as part of lloyd's several tracts against popery located at reel 388:23. reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng catholic church -england. reformation -england. 2003-11 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-12 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-01 john latta sampled and proofread 2004-01 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion considerations touching the true way to suppress popery in this kingdom : by making a distinction between men of loyal and disloyal principles in that communion . on occasion whereof is inserted an historical account of the reformation here in england . london : printed for henry brome in st. paul's church-yard , at the west end . 1677. a preface . the reader will find this book to be of a mixt nature , and in some places of a different stile ; as being compos'd at distant times , and by two several hands . one part of it is a proposition for securing the civil state against the danger of popery , by making a distinction between them of the roman communion . the other part , which is inserted into the former , concerns the chief and original controversies between ours and the roman church . for that part which belongs to the civil state , it was most of it printed about a year since , as appears by several instances a , of which the reader is desired to take notice , that there may be no mistake in the timeing of some things . the model of this part was drawn up by a worthy gentleman , who thought it a design , not only agreeable to his known moderation , but really practicable ; and likely to be exceedingly beneficial toward the safety of this kingdom at home , and the honour of it abroad ; to which nothing would more conduce , and yet nothing is more wanting , than some kind of general unity of the english nation within it self . but what is here said on this argument , the reader is intreated to interpret with the same candor with which it was intended . for the things proposed being only spoken problematically , it cannot be expected they should be deliver'd with great exactness ; and it is but reason that every little expression should not be called to a severe account , in a treatise , where the whole design it self is not imposed , but only offer'd to be fairly consider'd . if any one think that even this is a boldness , which private men should not allow themselves , in matters which belong to the government , the author could wish all men were of that mind , though it put him to the cost of an apology for himself in this particular . but he is not so ignorant of the age we live in , as not to know that this liberty is commonly taken ; and that none is censured for it , that does not much exceed the bounds of modesty . and if others can extend this liberty so far , as to write books that tend directly to disturb the publick settlement ; he does not see what need he can have for an excuse for writing that which can have no other end but to promote it . to speak plain , he has seen divers pieces of late , whereof some go about from hand to hand , to disswade men from taking the oath of allegiance ; others , and those not a few of late years , have been printed and sold publicly in behalf of a general toleration . what is , if this be not , to assault the publick settlement ? and either to force our governors to alter it , or to set the people against them for continuing it ? not to mention the reproaches that are thrown upon the memory of them by whom the settlement was made . whereas , here , is no design to alter any thing of it , any farther than may be needful to make it the more practicable in our times . to a people that is always prone to compassion , and of late so much discomposed by a civil war , no doubt the extreme severity of laws is likely to hinder the practicableness of them . and it is not the severity of laws , but the practice , that tends to the security of the state. and therefore the alteration here proposed is so far from having any reflection on the wisdom of our legislators in former times , that there is no reason to doubt that they would have made it themselves if they had lived in our present circumstances . if the author commit any error in judging thus ; he is not obstinate in it , but submits this together with the rest to the iudgment of wise and good men ; and especially to the publick wisdom , which must be acknowledg'd to be the most proper , and it were well if it were the only iudg in these matters . the other things b contained in this book were added by another person ; who , being well persuaded of the usefulness of the foregoing design , was desirous to improve it to farther advantage . and therefore he thought it would be an useful labour , and prudent counsel ; not only to render the civil state easie to the peaceable romanists among us , but to make them also well disposed to our church , as well as state. he is of opinion , that , if many of their nobility and gentry , and some of their moderate clergy , shall once come to live amicably with us , on the terms here mentioned , or on any other that shall be thought more discreet and seasonable ; they would by degrees suffer themselves to be calmly instructed in the iustice of our cause , and they would without prejudice examin which side is to be blam'd for the divisions between us . and then he doubts not but many of them would in time discover how much they have been misinformed concerning the state of our differences . to this purpose , hoping to find the most ingenuous of their laity , and even some of their well-meaning priests , in good humour , while they are reading a book which pleads something in their favour ; he has taken this opportunity to give them some light into the occasion and progress of the first breach between us and them . this he knows to be a subject , in which the generality of their laity and clergy are most confident , and seem most to triumph . but they are much mistaken in matter of fact ; as here the reader will see it evidently prov'd , out of unquestionable records , and impartial writers , many even of their own side . from whence it will appear that the whole business of the schism was begun and continued on the popes side for their secular interests and passions ; whilest the reformation , on the part of our church and state , was managed all along with great iustice and prudent moderation . after all that has been said , it is more than possible , that of one sort of men , there may be some ( i hope not the wisest among them ) who upon other accounts may take offence at both parts of this book . in the political part , perhaps offence may be taken at the liberty of this proposal ; as seeming too favourable to them of the roman communion , without the like consideration for any other dissenters . but the favour here proposed in behalf of the romanists , is not more than they enjoy among protestants abroad at this day : nor so much as the generality of those who are most zealous against them have thought fit heretofore to allow to persons differing only in opinion . they did not think it fit that even heretics themselves should suffer any capital punishment , barely upon account of their opinions , how dangerous soever they might be to mens souls . some , even of themselves , have written of late that no punishment should be inflicted on men for opinions that are not dangerous to the state. they who are of this mind have no reason to take offence at this book , because the favour desired in it is for persons as innocent in that respect as themselves . and for them that think errors are punishable by the state , on account of the hurt that they do to mens souls ; they will not find so great occasion of offence as they may possibly expect . for the author does not plead for any other exemption of roman-catholick , than such as will leave them still liable to as much severity , as themselves , if they are obnoxious to the laws , can think fit to be inflicted on men barely for differences in opinion . here is nothing proposed for their exemption from any incapacitating laws , or from the penalties against saying mass publickly , or against their endeavouring to make proselytes ; which last thing is death to roman-catholicks , and not at all penal to any other . these things being considered together , their condition will not be to be envied by any other dissenters , if they should have all the favour that is propounded for them in this book . but the common protestant religion will be better secured by it , which ought to satisfie any one that pretends to that name . for that part which concerns the controversies , it is suggested by another , ( which otherwise the author could scarce have expected , ) that some may think him too favourable to the romish opinions , or too much unconcerned for the defence of other protestant churches . he does not see how any one , that minds what he reads , can suspect him of favour to the principles of the roman communion ; having given sufficient reason , why he cannot embrace them , without losing his hopes of salvation . in the managing of the controversie , if he seem not to write in the defence of any other reformed church ; his answer is , that he does not write to the adversaries of the reformed religion , in any other than in his majesties dominions . and if his defence of our church be sufficient , it will overthrow that infallibility of the roman church , by which she pretends a iurisdiction over all others , and by which alone all her particular impositions are iustifiable . which will afford an easie apology to other churches who do not think themselves oblig'd to submit to those impositions . the contents . that there are many false notions of popery page 1. wherein the true notion of it consists 2. viz. chiefly , in owning the popes pretended authority ; and consequently , in submitting to his terms of communion 3. this proved , i. in that all the other points of popery were establisht by this pretended authority 5. ii. the owning of it is that on which the papists chiefly insist 7. iii. it is the most hurtful to church and state 13. and therefore worst in construction of our laws 18. that there is therefore a real difference between papists 24. for that they are not properly called so that deny the popes supremacy 25. and they that own it in spirituals only , are less perfectly papists than they that own it both in spirituals and temporals 26. that accordingly to distinguish between them by laws is the only true way for the suppressing of popery 27. that undistinguishing severity is not the way . for i. it is a way that being taken would not be effectual 28. ii. it would not seem iust and equal 33. iii. it would be against the interest of england 42. and would promote the roman interest pgae 49. a toleration of all sects among us would be most pleasing to them at rome 52. but next to it , an undistinguishing severity against all roman catholics 57. that to distinguish between such of them as will give security to the state and such as will not i. would be an effectual way to suppress popery 61. ii. that it would be iust and equal 71. iii. that it would be for the interest of england 76. it would cause many to fall under the pope's censures 78. and thereby give them occasion to consider how groundless the pope's pretence is to an authority over us 81. how justly it was thrown out of england by k. henry viii . 90. and afterward by q. elizabeth 108. the iustifiableness of the reformation 111. if it should fail of this effect , yet it would make them sure to our civil interests 133. objections against this way of discrimination as not being practicable 135. i. the roman church and court are all one in their principles ; being obliged to own the popes authority 137. 1. in spiritual things 138. 2. and also in temporals 144. answer to this objection 150. ii. they have ways to elude all the assurance they can give us 152. answer to this objection 154. iii. we can have no assurance of their constancy 158 answer to this 158 conclusion 160. the reader is desired to take notice that the quotations out of l. herbert's history of k. henry viii . were taken at distant times out of two books of different edition● , and not paged alike ; and that this was not observed , till those sheets in which the quotations are had past the press . the errata of any moment are to be corrected as follows . pag. 2. lin . 13. ( anciently famous ) p. 14 l. 25. of this . p. 17. l. 31. and yet that . p. 29. l. 14 , 15. no parenthesis . p. 46. l. 33. in the margin ib. ann . 1602. p. 276. p. 47. l. 1. in the margin put out the same words . ibid. l. 24. dependance on the. p. 53. l. 33. undistinguishing execution of laws , p. 58. l. 33. convince such a one that all his . p. 64. l. 9. in their streets . p. 67. l. 27. pretence to the. p. 81. l. 6. christ , he . p. 84. l. 14. churches epistle to . p. 85. margin , last line , anno 445. p. 91. l. 8. in margin . schism . p. 103. b. edit . 1585. p. 92. l. 19. he would never . l. 15. in marg . l. herb. anno 1529. p. 271. l. 26. in marg . the first . l. 29. pallavic . hist. conc. trent . ii. 15.5 . p. 94. marg . l. 4. camd. ib. p. 1. & 2. p. 94. l. 20. delays , and either . p. 100. l. 2. three . p. 101. l. 28. & 29. ( to use his own words ) p. 102. l. 12. large an account . p. 104. l. 29. particularly should begin a paragraph . p. 107. l. 30. had his traitorous . p. 113. l. 26. in marg . camd. eliz. p. 13. l. 29. in marg . she put out . p. 115. l. 30. pass without any . considerations about the true way of suppressing popery in this kingdom . among the ignorant vulgar , there are many false and wild notions of popery ; some of which being admitted to be true , would render the church of england , and all other reformed churches popish . other notions of it would in like manner stigmatize all those famous churches in the more remote parts of the world , which have not been in communion with the pope these eight hundred years . and others , in the last place , would no less deeply brand those who are most given to asperse others , even the wildest of phanaticks and enthusiasts themselves , as being popishly principled . if it be , as sure it is , very absurd to charge popery on those eminent eastern and western churches , which ever since the separation of the one , and the reformation of the other , have purged forth , and kept themselves free from all that which is properly popish ; and have therefore been anathematized by the pope himself , and excluded from the communion of all those christians which hold him for their ecclesiastical head : it must also be no less absurd to charge with popery those tenets of belief , and rites of worship ( however false and unnecessary in themselves ) wherein the roman catholick churches differ from the english protestant , and other churches of the reformation ; but agree with those anciently famous patriarchical churches ; and almost with all other in the remote parts of the world. having thus , how briefly soever , said what may be sufficient , to exclude the many , both incongruous and injurious notions of popery ; which also would be insignificant , if they were admitted , i shall in the next place endeavour to set forth the only true , proper and significant notion of it . and yet if i be not much deceived , 't will be no hard matter to fix upon , and shew wherein this only right notion of popery does consist . the very derivation of the word , and obvious reason of the thing , necessarily imported thereby , may assure us , it cannot in a few significant words be describ'd to be either less , or more , or any way other , than an undue adhaesion to the bishop of rome , in principles or practices falsly pretended to be christian. i say , to the bishop of rome , because he it is that hath for many ages past , appropriated to himself the name of pope , which was formerly common to all bishops ; as every one knows that has been conversant in the writings of the fathers . i say also , an undue adhaesion in principles , &c. for it 's , supposed to be an ill thing that is to be supprest . now it is not ill to confess the apostles creed , or to do any good thing that he does ; but to follow him , or to joyn with him in any thing that is evil ; that is chiefly , to assert an undue power or authority in the pope , such as that which he assumes to himself over the whole christian church ; and consequently , to embrace and to practice those errours and corruptions ( whatsoever they are ) that by virtue of that usurpt power and authority , he imposes on all those that are or shall be in communion with him ; and excommunicates all that will not come to those terms ; not so much for their aversness to those doctrines and practices , as because they will not submit to his power and authority . though i must withal observe here , as consequential to my former observation of so many false notions of popery , that laying aside its capital errour ; ( viz. that which directly asserts the pretended universal power of the pope ) it is no necessary evil of any inferiour , subservient errours or practices , at least , of any of those which are not peculiar to the roman church ( how false or vain soever they be in themselves ) but the unnecessary embracing them out of pure submission to the usurpt authority of the roman bishop , now stiled pope , and the only pope of the world , is it , that in any right sense of the word , renders them truly popish . and this i must acknowledge to be so , whether we regard the derivation of the word , or reasons of the thing it self . i mean , those reasons which evince the only proper significant notion of popery , to be that which i have given before in the fewest words i could well fix upon to define or describe it . what those reasons are , we have , as to one part of them , seen already ( by seeing that if popery be taken otherwise , all christian churches in the world must be confessedly popish ; ) and as to the other part also , we shall now see . for now i am to shew , that even by the judgment of such as ought best to understand their own doctrine , the very chief thing in popery , is the owning and asserting the papal authority . without question , there is nothing which they have more driven at from the beginning , or which they now more eagerly contend for in the roman church , and especially the governing part of it ; as it were easie to shew in many instances ; but a few will suffice , because the matter is so well known to all men of reading and experience . to begin with the original of popery . there is nothing more certain and plain in church-history , then that the primitive christians , being generally subjects of the roman empire , had a very great respect for the bishops of rome , because that was the imperial city . and yet it is as plain , that those bishops had no authority or jurisdiction out of their own province , that is beyond the suburbicary region of italy , till after the division of the roman empire into eastern and western . it was not long after that division , and chiefly upon the weakness of the western empire , that that power , which we now call the papacy , grew up . as the empire decay'd , so by degrees it encreased and gathered strength ; the design being at first , not to set up a new religion , but a new monarchy in the place of the old then expiring . the caesars having made rome their seat of empire for so many ages , and being at last driven out by the barbarous nations , it seemed as if the genius of the place had inspired the roman bishops to perk up , and to erect a new empire in the stead . which was no hard thing for them to do , being assisted with all manner of advantagious circumstances . having learn'd from their predecessors , to derive their descent from st. peter , how truly , it matters not , this gave them colour enough to take upon them to be all that he was . their see , their traditions , their dictates , were all stiled apostolical . the popes title was then , his apostleship ; for his holiness was too vulgar in those days . whatsoever preheminence or power those caesars by their laws , or their subjects the christian bishops in their councils had given them , as being bishops of the imperial city , when they had gain'd the city wholly to their devotion , and made their party among the barbarous nations , they scorn'd to hold it any longer by gift . all that had been so given them , and whatsoever they grasp'd more , they held it iure divino , as being heirs and successors to st. peter . by this means having shook off their obligation to canons and laws , they took upon them to be as infallible as st. peter was ; whose very name they did not stick to usurp when they pleased , as if christ had spoken to them , whatsoever he said personally to cephas . and whosoever objected ( as some always did ) that those pretensions were new , and that there is no ground for them in scripture , they could then face them down with those things which now they do not love to hear of ; namely , with forg'd decretal epistles , or councils , or fathers , or with pretended revelations and visions , or with counterfeit miracles . for all which they had those at their beck , who ( though ignorant enough otherwise ) had more learning and skill to forge such things , than others had at that time to disprove them . thus in a blind age ( nay many ages together ) when this part of the world was conducted and governed in spiritual things by one-eyed men , for the popes themselves were no better , it is no wonder that the generality of the people ran into so many errours as they did , to the great hurt and scandal of the christian religion . and though 't is charitable to believe , that at first there was no design to have those errours obtruded on the faith of posterity ; yet appearing to be such , as might be of great use for the wealth and greatness of the clergy , who were strongly attach'd to the roman see , nay some of them to the advancement of the papacy it self : the pope had great cause to look kindly upon them , and to wish they were no errours , but catholick doctrines ( and if he pleased to have them such , who durst say they were otherwise ? ) when they had once receiv'd that publick countenance from him , he had much greater cause to continue it , and by all possible ways to keep them in possession of that esteem which those dark times had given them . and that not only for affection , as before , on the account of their usefulness to himself and his clergy ; but for fear that if these errours were detected and brought in disgrace , it might reflect on the infallibility of the roman see , and might give men occasion to look farther , and to examine the whole fabrick of popery ; which being search'd to the bottom , it could not but appear , that the fundamental errour was that which gave the pope such a power and authority over the whole christian church . this was truly the cause why such care was continually taken in all the latter general councils ( for so the pope was pleas'd to call those conventions of his vassels , in which nothing pass'd but what he pleas'd ) to establish those popular errours as they grew up , and to put them out of question by their canons and decrees . whereas the great capital errour was never defin'd , but supposed , and pass'd ( as all fundamentals do ) by such a general consent , as is stronger than all positive laws whatsoever . it pass'd thus for many ages , till upon occasion of that long schism , when for about fifty years , the western church carried double , a pope and an antipope , that rid cursing and damning one another , the council of constance being met to judge which was which , deposed both , and began to set bounds to the papacy . it was follow'd by the council of basil ; which presuming to do the same , and being likely enough to have gone farther ; the pope that then was , call'd an opposite council , and therein settled his authority by a law. it was the council of florence , which though not acknowledg'd by many roman catholicks abroad , and particularly , not by the generality of them in france : yet since i write this to english men , i shall shew what they of our nation thought of it , at the last revolution to popery ; from whence we may take some kind of measure , and guess what many would be at again . it was declar'd by the cardinal legate , a with consent of his synod at london , that the cause of all the evils in this church , sprang from hence , that departing from the vnity and doctrine of the catholick church , we had relinquished the authority and obedience of the pope of rome , christ's vicar , and the successor of peter . the denial of this authority , was declar'd b to be the chief errour of protestants . to correct which , they thought fit to set forth the true doctrine , as it was delivered in the eighth general council at florence , held under pope engenius iv. of happy memory , in these words : we declare , that the holy apostolical see and pope of rome , holds the primacy over all the world ; and that the pope of rome is the successor of st. peter , the prince of the apostles , and is the true vicar of christ , and head of the whole church , and father and teacher of all christians ; and that to him , in st. peter , our lord iesus christ gave full power to feed , rule and govern the vniversal church . since the council of florence , there have been only two pretended general councils ; namely , the fifth lateran , and the council of trent ; both which were acknowledged by that synod of london above mentioned . the fifth lateran council was call'd by the pope , for no other end , but that he might be able to write their approbation in the stile of those bulls which he should publish for the greatness of the papacy . in the first of those c bulls , he damn'd the pisan council , which the french king had assembled against him . in the second , d he laid an interdict on the whole kingdom of france , and ordered the fair of lions to be removed from thence to geneva . in a third , e he annulled the famous pragmatick sanction , the palladium of the french church . and so went on , till having brought the french king to his terms , his next bull f was , to set himself above all general councils ; and to declare , that all christians , sub necessitate salutis , under pain of damnation , must be subject to the pope of rome , according to that luciferian constitution of boniface viii , which he mentions and approves , and confirms . all this he does with consent of that council . the council of trent , which came last , and pinn'd the basket , not only took care to leave the pope in full possession of this usurp'd power , by declaring , g that no act of theirs should infringe it , and by making him judge and interpreter of all their decrees ; but also confirmed it to him , as much as in them lay . for they ordained , h that in every church of the roman communion , at the first provincial synod after that council , every member thereof , should promise and profess true obedience to the pope ; and that all that were preferr'd for the future , whether to bishoprick , dignity , or cure of souls , should promise and swear the like obedience , in such form as the pope should prescribe . whereupon pope pius iv. made that i form of profession of faith , that is every where taken at this day ; whereof one clause is , i promise and swear true obedience to the pope of rome , successor to st. peter , prince of the apostles , and vicar of iesus christ. beside these publick acts , which have a general influence on all parts and members of the roman communion ; there is a special tye on the governing part of it ( if not by their interest ) by another oath , which is taken by all archbishops , bishops & abbots at their consecration . the form of it is prescrib'd in the roman pontificale ; to which i refer the reader that would see it at large . there he may see how all church-governours of that communion , bind themselves to the pope , to be his liege-men and subjects , his counsel-keepers , his spies and intelligencers , his constant correspondents , his factors , his sworn servants , in express terms , to the utmost of their power to persecute and impugn all hereticks , schismaticks and rebels against the pope ( their own natural prince , parents , kindred , and friends not excepted . ) i wish every protestant ( who is in their sense an heretick , &c. ) would be pleas'd to read that oath , and then judge what he is to expect from any of these men , unless he knows they are such as will be perjur'd for his sake . it was surely not without cause , that cardinal bellarmine call'd the doctrine of the pope's authority over all christians , caput fidei , the head of the catholick faith. i have shewn that it is so in their sense of the word catholick . a doctrine that is the only fundamental of popery ; the foundation whereof was first laid in the papal authority , and the whole building of popery in other points , has been raised in favour to it . a doctrine that has since been secured and confirmed by canons of councils , and by the oaths of all their clergy . a doctrine to which the leaders and guides of their church , are sworn to sacrifice all that 's dear to them : and which way the guides go , there 's no fear but the laity will follow them with that blind obedience , which is peculiar to them in the roman church . and therefore whatsoever notion we have of popery in other things , the pope himself is not so fond of them , but that to gain the point of authority , he can either connive , or abate , or part with them wholly , if he pleases : though no doubt he never does it , but insidiously , as well knowing , that whatsoever concession he makes for the establishing of his authority , he may afterwards annul , and will do it when soever he pleaseth . but that the owning his authority , is the thing which makes a catholick in his sense , and that only , it appears by sundry instances abroad ; but none more memorable then those which we have had here in england . where king henry viii . having cast off his obedience to the pope , was therefore judged a heretick ; and underwent the worst that rome could have done to him , if he had rejected all their errours together ; and yet he asserted all the rest , and imposed them with the utmost severity . he was a through-papist in all points , but only that of obedience ; in comparison whereof , all the rest are but talk . that is the business , as we are taught by this example . and we are not a little confirm'd by the proceeding on the other hand , with his daughter elizabeth ; who being as much a protestant as any is , or can be at this day ; and having so settled religion in her kingdom , that it had scarce been in her power to have altered it , how and when she pleased ; yet if she could but have been brought to acknowledge the popes authority , to which she was courted by all possible ways , how gladly would his holiness have received her ? and abated for lesser things , that is , for all things else ; if it be true , that the pope would have allowed her the english liturgy that then was , and the communion-service , as it was generally reported he would : and we have the more cause to believe it , because we hear of the like offers prepared for us , in order to perswade the restoring of popery in our days . i conceive it is sufficiently proved , that the chief thing in popery , is the doctrine which asserts the popes authority over all christians . i shall adde , that it is the worst of all the evils which popery contains , the most hurtful and mischievous both to church and state ; which being proved to my hand in sundry learned discourses within these few years , i shall not need to say much on this head . yet i cannot but mind the reader of that which is most notorious , and which every one knoweth , that hath read over almost any history of these last eight hundred years . for about so long since it was , that the church received the greatest wound that ever was given it , a breach not to be repaired , a schism that reacheth throughout the whole universe . so long a time the western church , that is , the western part of europe , hath been a church by it self ; having broke off all communion with all other churches in the world , that is , with all the asian and african churches , and all those in the east and north parts of europe . instead of that love and peace which christ left as his legacy among christians , there hath been for so many ages nothing else but banning and cursing between them . as the pope yearly curses all those christians that are not of his communion ; so he and his are yearly curst by the four ancient patriarchs of constantinople , alexandria , antioch and ierusalem ; and by all the christian churches depending on them , except those few whom he hath conquer'd , or bought , or otherwise gain'd by his missionaries . the original cause of this breach , was nothing else but the popes usurpation , which those churches were not able to bear . it was the same cause , that many ages after , divided this western part of europe within it self . for our church was thrown out of the roman communion , many years before any thing else was reformed in it ; when there was no other difference between us , but only this , that we had cast off the popes usurpation . this breach of christian-unity , were of it self a great mischief to the church , though nothing else came of it but hatred and unchristian censures , in which perhaps , both sides might be to blame , but yet they might live and grow wiser , and come at last to understand one another . and this would possibly ensue upon any other difference of opinion . but this grand point of popery is such , as sets men in no ordinary heat ; it makes them breath not only censures , but death against their adversaries ; it arms out all the wealth , power and policy of them that hold it , to reduce or destroy all them that oppose it . not to rip up ancient stories , we have a sad instance this in the greek church , which refusing to submit to the pope , was betray'd by him to the turk ; under whom it hath groaned these two hundred years . in all which time of bondage and misery , which that poor church hath endured , what relief hath she had from the interest or wealth of the papacy ? i cannot say , but there have been , and are daily great returns thither of money from rome ; but all the use of them , is to hire her children against her for bread ; or to bribe the turks bassa's to do her all the hurt that is possible . we have the less cause to take it ill , if we find the popes agents busie among us , and if we feel the woful effects of their diligence , in our intestine divisions , and in the growth of atheism , which we cannot but be sadly sensible , are both much increased since the late toleration . in these and the like practises , they plainly declare , that rather then not bring in popery , they would drive out christianity before them ; and not leave the name of christ to the people , that will not receive the pope as his vicar . how those churches where he is so received and bears rule , as he would do among us , are blessed in it , we may partly guess by the means that he employs to get us under him . for it is seldom known , that they who are so greedy of power , use it well when they have it . but not to go by guess , when we have a map before us : we may see the condition of his subjects describ'd by some of themselves , that writ in those times when men durst write of such things ; when there was no inquisition for them , nor no index expurgatorius for their writings . i believe , a more cruel bondage , a more miserable thraldom and yoke then they describe never was among the barbarous nations . i believe also the inquisition , where it is introduc'd , hath not made their condition easier since . and that it is not introduc'd in some countreys , as namely , in france and flanders , they may thank the poor protestants for it : where such are , the pope will have a care not to make too much noise , for fear of frighting away the birds that he would take . and yet in france , where there is no inquisition , he found other ways not long since , to make the iansenists feel the weight of his hand , and that severely ; for no other reason , but because in certain school-points , they presum'd to oppose another party that were more firm to his interests . if this be his way of keeping unity , for which they so much cry up his government ( though men do not speak so well of the russian , which keeps unity better : ) i see no reason why we should not be content , and endure our dissentions ; or rather find some other way to compose them , than by putting our necks into a yoke , which being once fastned , it will be too late for us to complain afterward . we must either draw as he would have us , or else go to the shambles . for the temporal state , how it hath been turmoild with this papal usurpation , would ask a large book to describe , as the matter deserves . i shall only say this , that ever since it began , it hath hung like a comet , over kingdoms and nations , and shed forth direful influences on all that have been any way obnoxious to it . but it came not to its height , till pope hildebrand's days , whom their heavenly muster-roll * calleth st. gregory vii . a saint , no doubt , worthy of red letters ; for he caused the shedding of more christian blood than mahomet himself ; and as mahomet did , he taught his sect to do the same , and merit heaven by it . his dictates are commonly known , being publish'd , both in his books , and in the councils . i appeal to any one that hath read them , whether antichrist at his coming ( if he be yet to come ) can * speak greater things . sure i am , nothing can be more contrary to the humble and meek spirit of christ. among these , there is one doctrine briefly expressed , but more amply declared in his bulls , and in his actions pursuant to them . it is concerning a power that he assumes to himself to depose kings , and to dispose of their kingdoms . which arrogant claim ( such as none but the devil * ever made before him ) hath ever since been continued by his successors ; and yet is , as often as they see occasion , both declared and manifested by the like bulls and actions . the woful effects of it throughout this western part of europe , are notoriously known to all that read history ; having torn the bowels of this part of christendom like an earthquake , for these last six hundred years , having shaken the foundations of all empires , kingdoms and states , involving all of them , at one time or other , in bloody and cruel wars , accursed and unnatural rebellions , and all other consequent calamities . in germany particularly , where it first began to operate : the two next emperours were fain to fight no less than sixty field-battels to keep their crowns upon their heads . in france it hath wrought proportionably . other countreys have suffered their share . but none more than england in king iohn's miserable days . and that had been forgotten in 88. if the design had taken , which god only could , and did defeat ; when otherwise this doctrine , in all probability , had destroyed the english kingdom and nation , we had been gone , and our name had scarce remained upon the face of the earth . the sad experience of the manifold mischiefs and dangers , both to church and state , from this pretended authority , taught our fore-fathers at sundry times , to provide against it by laws , with such penalties annex'd to them , as they found needful , to prevent the like mischiefs and dangers for the future . it appears , that the ancientest laws of this kind , were made by them that lived and died in the roman communion : i mean , the laws of provisors and praemunire , enacted some hundreds of years since by roman catholick kings and their parliaments ; who could have no design against any other of those things we call popery ; for they held the same erronious opinions which our now-papists do , though they held them not as articles of faith. but they endeavoured by those laws , to secure themselves against the daily encroachment of the pope , and his faction in the roman church . when those banks were found insufficient to restrain the growing torrent within its bounds , they found it needful to stop the channel , to exclude the papacy it self , and turn it out of the kingdom . this was done by king henry viii , upon such a provocation , as perhaps would have moved a much gentler prince to do the same . for he was made to dance attendance upon the court of rome five or six years , for sentence in a cause , which he commenced not of himself , but by advice of the popes legat , and his confessor : a cause which the pope himself at first had encouraged ; in which he had the judgment of the whole church of england , and divers foreign universities of his side . his exclusion of the papal authority was by acts both of parliament , and of convocation , almost no man dissenting . they both form'd the oath of supremacy , and took it themselves , and joyn'd with him in imposing it , in direct opposition to this grand point . and yet this king himself , and all the members of those bodies , were firm to all things else that we call popery . it was otherwise in the time of queen elizabeth , of blessed memory ; who , at the entrance of her reign , not only repair'd her father's fence against the papal authority , but also purged the church of all those errours and corruptions , which are yet retain'd and own'd by all them of the roman communion . and yet she laid no penalty on any of them , but the loss of their ecclesiastical preferments , and the payment of twelve pence for every sunday that they were absent from church . this is all that they suffer'd for many years , till the pope took upon him to turn her out of her kingdom . when he had publish'd his bull to that purpose , and sent it hither among her subjects , and some of them had taken arms , and tried all ways to put that bull in execution ; then she enacted a law , to forbid any of her subjects , under pain of premunire , to bring bulls , or any other such trumpery from rome , and made it treason for any of them to be reconciled ( as they call it ) to the roman church . yet for six years more , though some were taken in the offence , none suffer'd the penalty of that law. when the pope proceeded further in hostility against her , to give away her crown , to invade her dominions , and to practise against her life ; when she found , that under pretence of religion , he drew over many of her subjects , and train'd them up as his spiritual janizaries , in houses founded for that purpose ; when she found , that at their return , they fully answered the ends of their education , and rather listed souldiers against her , than made proselytes to their religion ; then she executed those former laws , and made more from time to time , as they gave her occasion . in which laws , though she found it necessary to forbid sundry acts which were purely religious , and to make it penal to such as were taken at them , because she had no other way to find out them that were dangerous to the state ; yet she made it sufficiently appear , that the design of such laws was only against dangerous persons , by the great care she took to turn the edge of them from those that were otherwise . she gave private instructions to her judges , that before any was to suffer by the sanguinary laws , they should examine him how he stood affected to the state ; whether he owned hildebrands doctrine ; whether he approved the popes sentence ; whether he would side with him against her majesty . if they found any one , in those circumstances of a prisoner dead in law , so desperately bold , that he durst own a foreign power , in defiance of her that had his life at her mercy ; she would not have her judges spare him , that she might be very sure , would not have spared her nor her kingdom . otherwise , if they stood right as to the civil authority , it was her will that none should suffer death . and though they were such of the clergy , whom she knew to be the popes disciples and pensioners , and therefore thought it not safe to trust them in her kingdom ; yet if they gave her a fair answer , she sent them out of it quietly . and thus she dismist * some of them , that proved afterward as errant traytors as any whom she put to death . but for many other of their clergy , and especially those who were priests in queen mary's days , knowing them to be of peaceable principles , she suffered them to live peaceably in her kingdom . of the laity likewise , she put none to death , that would disown the popes temporal power . she took only a pecuniary mulct , with which she thought fit to repair her self for the charge she was put to in defending her self against the head of their communion . when that charge was apprehended to be over ; namely , at king iames his coming to the crown , they were discharged even of those pecuniary penalties . the king knew of no sentence that the pope had issued forth against himself ; and finding no trouble from those of his communion , he was willing to give none . nor did he , till he had tried them ▪ none suffer'd among them in any kind ; none had cause to be in fear of any suffering ; no distinction was made between them and other subjects . but this calm was soon interrupted , by the breaking out of a conspiracy , which yet seemed only to waken the vigilance of the state. for no great matter was done upon it , till another broke forth , that of the powder-treason , which out-went all former examples . and then ( when it was almost too late ) he understood by searching into this conspiracy , that though the pope had not deprived him by name of the kingdom , yet he had barred his right to it by a sufficient description ; having sent out two breves before the queens death , in which he commanded all his catholicks , not to suffer any protestant , how near soever in blood , to succeed her in the kingdom . this papal precept it was , to which the authors themselves ascribed their gunpowder-treason . and that the king might not always be in the like danger , he saw no way but to punish them that heeded such precepts . other papists he excused , and made himself , as it were , their compurgator , declaring to the world , that he believ'd they were innocent and peaceable . only they were not to be excused for keeping ill company : for they joyned in all religious acts with those of hildebrand's sect ; therefore they ought not to think much if their purses paid for it . but otherwise the king did what lay in him to distinguish them . and therefore he provided the oath of alleigance , by the taking or refusing whereof , he might be able to know the one from the other . that oath was made at first in such terms , as might perhaps have raised scruple in those that held the papacy , to be of divine right , though not in temporals , but only in spiritual things . though most of that communion held otherwise in france , and few held so in england , in king henry viii's days . yet lest that might stick with any innocent person ; the king , that desired to hurt none that might be spared , and well knowing all their principles , for he had studied their authors ; therefore took upon him so to moderate the oath , that it could not pinch the conscience of any roman catholick that was not first infected with hildebrand's principles . and they were generally so well satisfied with the oath in those terms , in which he had conceived it , that it was forthwith taken by the superior of the secular clergy , and by many other , both of the clergy and laity . few stuck at it , but those of hildebrand's sect ; whom the king had a mind to single out of the herd , and to rid the land of them , that he might live quietly with the other roman catholicks . but this pleased not at rome , where only those are the darlings . and it concerned the pope , to assert his own power in temporals ; which being something the younger , he is more fond of than that in spirituals ; and yet the elder being the more popular , he wilfully mistook , and perswaded the people ( as if he had believed himself ) that the oath was against his power in spirituals . but he mistook not in forbidding the oath of allegiance to be taken by any catholick , upon any terms whatsoever . his prohibition was under pain of his curse ; both which were confirm'd by one or more popes since . and yet many of their church took that oath , and some of them defended it in writing ; and 't is taken and defended in like manner to this day . by many others it is , and hath been refused : whether as being contrary to the principles of their sect , or whether in reverence to the popes prohibition ; and possibly some may have refused to take the oath , upon some scruple which they have conceived against the wording of it . but whatsoever the cause of their refusal may be , the state hath no way left to distinguish ; and therefore being assured of the lawfulness of the oath in these terms , and being aware of the wicked design with which it is forbidden , hath just cause to secure it self by their peril . it hath surely no cause to look on them as friends , that prefer their own scruples to its safety ; much less , that break its just commands , to serve or to please its open enemy . and for this cause , that wise and gracious prince suffered some of their clergy that were obnoxious otherwise , to fall under the edge of the law. but never in his nor his sons days , did any one of that communion , suffer death for any crime against the state , that would clear himself of it by taking the oath of allegiance . from what i have said , it sufficiently appears , that the asserting an undue authority in the pope or bishop of rome , is properly to be called popery ; 't is the chief thing , and the only thing in the popes esteem ; 't is most hurtful and dangerous , and the worst thing in the construction of the law. from whence i shall infer , that among roman catholicks , some are properly papists , and some are improperly called so . and however they are both of one communion , and meet together in the same offices of worship , and therefore cannot easily be distinguished ; ( unless they please to distinguish themselves ) yet there is a great difference between them : as great a difference in relation to the state , as there is between wens and useful members in the body . they that wholly deny the popes supremacy , cannot properly be called papists , but vnreformed catholicks ; as men generally were here in england , in the later part of king henry viii's days . and they , as i believe , were the first that used the word papists , to denote the assertors of that outed supremacy . nor can they properly be called so in france , or other countreys , who deny the pope to have any authority over them by divine right ; but grant it only by such canons and laws , as being made upon good considerations , may on better , be abrogated and repealed . i know there are some of this mind in england , and do believe there would appear to be many , if they found sufficient cause to declare it . * now though such men believe the same erroneous tenets , and use the same superstitious and idolatrous rites that papists do ; namely , such as the pope himself has made the terms of his communion , and therefore they are properly in communion with him ; yet those tenets and rites are not properly popery . though they are bad enough otherwise , yet if they keep them to themselves , they are not hurtful to humane society : as being consistent with the safety of the kingdom , and with obedience to government , and with justice of contracts , and love of neighbours ; with all which , at least collectively taken , popery in the proper notion of it is inconsistent ; and generally held so , not only by all other christians , but by a very great and considerable part of the roman catholicks themselves . they are properly papists , that hold the pope as vicar of christ , by divine right , to have a power and authority over all christians . and yet if they give him this power in spirituals only , and not also in temporals , they are but half-papists : and so they will find the pope accounts them , if they have occasion to make use of him . they only are thorough-papists , that acknowledge his authority in both . first , directly in spiritual things ; and then in temporals also , whether directly , or whether indirectly , in order to spirituals , it matters not . let him have the power , and he will trust himself with the use of it . now this thorough-papist , being a man after the popes own heart , i shall from him take the perfect measures of popery . he is one that asserts and maintains , or at least practically submits to the popes pretended power and usurpation ; over all kings and people in their temporals ; and over all bishops and churches in their spirituals ; and in all things , over all persons on earth , not only separately , but collectively , in their parliaments or councils ; and consequently over all their canons , laws and definitions . in few words , that owns him to be the infallible oracle , and universal vicar of god ; a kind of god upon earth , who has no limits to his commission , or to the execution of it , but his own will and pleasure . this most excellent systeme it is , that only passes at rome for the catholick doctrine . this is authorized by the pope , this is taught in his own church at rome , and elsewhere by his stipendiaries or other dependants . and this is properly popish , for it belongs not to any other christians of whatsoever church , sect or denomination : nor is it owned by the far greater number of them that are or call themselves roman catholicks . i have given my own private opinion , as well of the true , as of the false notion of popery ; and have intimated withal ( though but occasionally ) what my opinion is , as well of the great concernment of the christian world , if not of all mankind , to suppress popery , truly such ; as of the little occasion there is , for any great severity to be used against that for name-sake , which in truth is not popery , nor has any essential or necessary conjunction with it . now to enter upon the main design of this paper ; which , according to the title , is a consideration or search for the true way of suppressing of popery , i declare my design to be against popery in its proper notion . and whereas i have shewn a lower degree of it to consist in owning the popes power in spirituals only ; by suppressing of this , i intend , at least , such a restraint upon it , as may suffice to keep it from being hurtful or troublesom . for the other degree , which cannot but be hurtful wheresoever it is in being : i declare my design to be no less , than the extinguishing of it , at least out of england , and , if it were possible , from the face of the earth . of this matter to deliver my thoughts with all freedom , i confess it seems to me , that undistinguishing severity , whether of laws , or of the execution of them , against all roman catholicks in general , cannot be the true way to suppress popery ; much less to rid it out of this kingdom , or any other of his majesties dominions . the general motives which induce me to think so , are these three : 1. that such a course in all likelihood , would not prove effectual . 2. that if it should prove effectual , yet it would be very far from seeming just or equitable . 3. it would be against the interest of england in diverscontingencies . 1. that it would be ineffectual , i am persuaded by the well-known experience of above a hundred years , that is , of what hath pass'd in this kingdom ever since the reformation . for notwithstanding all the penal laws that have been made , and the execution of them , which was severe enough at some times ; we see that still there have been roman catholicks ever since ; and they were never so much lessen'd by their sufferings , as by the court of wards , which took off many of the wealthiest families . but that which made them bear up against sufferings was this , as i humbly conceive , that by divers of our laws , or by the interpreters and executors of them ( especially of those laws that had pecuniary penalties ) they saw no distinction made between loyal and disloyal ; between peaceable and turbulent principles ; between matters simply of religion , and those which threatned the state. the same cause is like to have the same effect still . and therefore i think we have just occasion to fear , that if all men of that communion are still equally liable to the same punishments in any kind , and accordingly treated ; it will be thought by themselves , if not by others also , that their suffering is for some articles of catholick religion , and not for any principles either of treason , or other papal superstition ( which principles ▪ very many of them do as much , as any protestant , with all their hearts abhor , and are ready to abjure . ) and while they think so , it will undoubtedly cause ( at least a considerable number of them ) to stand the utmost extremities ; and thereby the pope will peradventure gain more proselytes to his communion , and more strength to his side , than he will lose from it . besides , the number of their priests at home , and of their seminaries abroad , would not lessen , but increase , by such undistinguishing severity . for divers of those sufferers , being streightned with want , would send their children beyond sea , to get them off of their hands , to have them bred without charge , and put into a way of living . and they are so brought up , and so principled , in their foreign colledges , that let the laws in england be never so severe , they will return hither , and not stick to venture their lives in the service . seminaries also would increase . for they are so addicted to their religion beyond sea , that , let a preacher in a good town sollicite the charity of people towards the maintenance of such as shall expose their lives to propagate their religion , and there will quickly be a new foundation erected for that purpose . the colledge in sivil was maintain'd by alms , and i think that at valledolid likewise , and yet scholars lived no where better . these two colledges , when the times were most severe to roman catholicks , sent every year many priests into england ; and now in many years send none : but would undoubtedly grow numerous again , if the fame of our severity here should quicken the peoples charity in those parts , which hath been slackned very much of late years . again , neigbouring princes , who shall see men persecuted for the same perswasions which they profess themselves , will interpose in their behalf ; both of their own accord in some measure , and much more at the popes sollicitation ; who will be sure to engage all the credit he has with them , on such an occasion : and the interest of all neighbour states are so interwoven , that at one time or other it will be found inconvenient not to gratifie them in such a request . there will oftentimes happen another kind of obstruction , even at home , from english protestants themselves . for i think it ought to be considered , that many roman catholicks , however abused in their judgments about some matters of divine belief or worship , are esteemed by their protestant neighbours honest , well-meaning men , such as they cannot find in their hearts to use hardly , without great and evident cause . others have relations , or friends , or dependants , tied by several interests to them . and even strangers to the persons who are to suffer the penalties of the laws , will think it hard to inflict them on men that are no otherwise liable , than merely for such religious tenets and rites , as have been for many ages warranted by the laws , and held and practised by all christian people amongst us . so that , from one or other of these causes i have mentioned , it will prove a very difficult matter to have the laws executed on roman catholicks , without discrimination ; that is , without separating those who are so qualifi'd for pity , from those who deserve none , in the judgment of any protestant , nay of any true englishman whatsoever . for no man that loveth the peace of his country , can think fit to spare them , who are so fond of a foreign government , that rather than not be under it , they will not spare to involve their country in blood and misery . other men of that principle , have done as bad in former times . and we have cause to be jealous of all men of that religion , that they are of the same principles , and will do the same things ; unless they will secure us by some act , which they may lawfully do , being required to it . now it is evident , we have too many such among us , who are thorough-papists , and ministers of that foreign government ; and many others , who will not secure us by doing any such act , that the state shall require , against the interest of that foreign government . therefore the state hath just cause to secure it self against them , by such laws , as being executed , it shall not be in their power to do us hurt . but when those laws are made without any distinction , they herd themselves with others of their communion ; and being hunted together , they have some little trouble perhaps , which they laugh at , for they know it will come to nothing . after a while , good nature works in the protestants ; every man that should execute the laws , knoweth some or other that deserve favour , and for their sakes he will punish none . so the prosecution at first grows cold , and at last ceases ; till some fresh apprehension of danger awakens us , and then there will be a little more stir , to no purpose , as we have seen more then once in our days . but lastly , if the laws are executed to the full , i speak of laws made without discrimination , whatsoever severity shall be used in pursuance of them , will chiefly light on the best and most innocent persons ; on them that are truly english , and have nothing to do with rome , save that they live within her communion . for the thorough-paced papist will shift better than the other can do . the jesuites can equivocate , and teach their scholars to do it . they can sail with every wind , and rather than lose their port , they can do all that protestants do . and if they have no dispensation before hand , they can have a pardon for it afterward : for they know where those things are to be had , which any honest man , though of that religion , abhors either to ask or need . and if a jesuite should have so over-slept himself , that he is taken napping with other catholicks ; he is sure to have friends to bring him off . if none in england can do it , he has them abroad to help . if he be put to fly his country , he knows whither to go . if he step short , and fall into a prison ; there , at least , he is sure not to want either relief or means for his deliverance . while the man of loyal principles , if he fall into any of those circumstances , is stuck , and knows not which way to look for help . for from whence should he have it ? at home he has no friend that dares know him ; abroad he has no manner of interest . for all there depend upon the pope ; who is so far from concerning himself for any , whom he knows to be no papists , that he does not own them for catholicks . and especially if any such be men of parts , whom he hears to be in prison , or the like , he only wishes them hanged out of the way , that he may have the rest the more intirely at his devotion . much more might be said on this head , but what i have said may suffice . and therefore to insist no longer on that question , whether undistinguishing severity would be effectual or no ? i come now to shew , that if it should prove effectual , yet it would be very far from seeming just or equitable to indifferent men . and of this i am strongly assured , first , by all the judgment i can make of the intention of our laws ; secondly , by arguments from the rule of right reason , and the ancient practise of christianity . i begin with the former , and observe , that although the severity of our penal statutes , according to the bare letter of them , generally not distinguishing between papists and roman catholicks , falls indifferently on both ; yet , by the wording of them in several places , and by other circumstances , it appears , that they were intended against the abettors of undue authority in the pope , and against no other . for what appears in the wording of the statutes , i shall instance only two ; viz. 23 eliz. and 3 iacobi : whereof the former , namely , that of queen elizabeth , expresses the crime to be punished by the statute , in these terms , an intent to withdraw subjects from their natural obedience . the other , namely , that of king iames , which was very severe , as it ought to be on so great an occasion , mentions this as the crime to be punished by it : the withdrawing subjects from their natural obedience , and moving them to promise obedience to the pretended authority of the see of rome . that the sanguinary laws were intended against popery in this sense , and no other , it may further appear by the account i have given before ; where i briefly set forth on what occasions they were made , and in what manner they were executed . it is evident , that none ever suffer'd death as a papist , who could be brought to take the oath of supremacy or allegiance . now it is certain , that those oaths were primarily designed to be a suffient test to distinguish papists from others . and yet in either of them , there is no mention made of any doctrines , but only those which concern government ; that is , the external government both of church and state. it is indeed objected by papists against the oath of supremacy , and it sticks with some of those roman catholicks who are not papists , that by the oath of supremacy , the king is made a spiritual head of the church . but he that reads the oath , will find no such thing in it ; and it is expresly declar'd by the church of england in her articles , that she ascribes to the king no other jurisdiction over the church , than what is meerly external ; even the same that was exercised by the kings of iudah , and the christian emperours , over the church in their kingdoms and empires . to this i may add , the constant profession and answer of all protestant writers . whensoever any complaint has been made of the severity used to roman catholicks , it has been always said , that they suffered not for religion , but treason . and this is a very plain and satisfactory answer , while those only suffer who do those things , or hold those tenets which involve treason in them . but if they who do no such thing , and who renounce all such tenets , are yet made to suffer in like manner ; though they suffer for that which the law declares to be treason , it will bear some dispute , whether law-makers may not miscall things . however , it shews the general sense of the church and state of england ; i mean , for what concerns the design or intention of those penal laws . and here by the way it may be observed how very different our dealing with the roman-catholicks is from their dealing with protestants in q. mary's days . that then all profest protestants were handled severely , and that many of them were put to death , i think none will deny . but to avoid the odium of this , some of that communion in our age would persuade us that their suffering was not upon the account of religion . and , to colour this evasion , they endeavour to show that cranmer , and two or three more , had deserved death for treason ; which is more than they are able to prove . but admit this were true , that these men had deserved it ; yet they did not suffer death for treason , but religion , as they would have it believed that made them dye . for they declared this throughout the whole course of their criminal proceedings . and it concerned them so to do . for , otherwise , by the laws then in force , they had murthered as many as they burnt ; there being no law to burn men for treason , but for heresie . and so far they were from using any moderation , that they rather extended the letter of the law : by inflicting it on many poor creatures , who had nothing to provoke any jealousie against them ; but enough to move pity , if there had been any , in their adversaries . it has been the glory of our church , that we have not been like them in this : nor can be , without altering the design of them that made all our laws against popery . the intention of our laws appearing so manifestly , as i conceive , against papists only , and not against any other roman catholicks ; it seems not reasonable that any other butpapists should suffer by the letter of those laws . for it is a maxim , that not the bare letter of any one or more clause or clauses , but the intention of the whole law is the life and soul of it . i mean , it is that which gives signification to words , & w ch ought ( where itis evident ) to interpret thelaw . it is also a maxim , that all penal laws should be interpreted favourably ; and therefore more should not be made criminals , nor should any criminal suffer more by any law , than was meant by the legislator . now 't is commonly said , there are very many romancatholicks ( i hope the far greater number of them in england ) who maintain no principles or opinions , which destroy the fundamentals of government , or disturb the peace of the kingdom ; nor hold any of those opinions which are essential to popery , namely , which assert any undue authority in the pope , or ( as it is exprest in the statute ) which withdrawsubjects from their naturalobedience , or move them to promise obedience to the pretended authority of thesee of rome . there are many of that communion , who profess that they hate & detest all such doctrines . and therefore to indifferent judges , how can it but seem very hard to extend the severity of theletter of our penal laws , against the legislators intention , to all roman catholicks universally and indistinctly , without any exception in favour of those many that hold no such opinions , and that are in all respects truly loyal and peaceable ? surely the punishment cannot seem just or equitable , which has not thelaw for it ; and that has not thelaw for it , which is against the intention of the legislator . next i say , with submission , that granting the intention of the statute-laws of our land , and of the legislators by whom they were made , to have been against all roman catholicks indistinctly , and not only against the mere papalins ; yet according to the eternal law of reason , and ancient practice of christianity , it may seem in such case , than an undistinguishing execution of the laws , would neither be just nor equitable . for first , it seems very unreasonable , to go about to force men to change their judgments in any thing , that hurts none but themselves , and especially in so weighty a matter as is that of religion . it is confess'd , that the religion of roman catholicks , differs very much from that which is established by law ; and i am much to blame , if i know not it is erroneous in those points in which it differs . for which reason , i doubt not , they ought to be restrain'd from publick exercise of it , and ( as far as it is possible ) from hurting others by the propagation of their errours . i also grant , that by some kind of punishment , less than death or ruine , men that err , may and ought to be awaken'd and stirr'd up to seek better information , and to attend to the means of it , that they may be reclaim'd from their errours . i also grant , that it belongs to the legislative power to define , how far , and by what means all this should be done ; without which , i see no way to preserve established truth , or to suppress heresie in any kingdom . but all the punishment that is necessary for this purpose , may be inflicted without any force upon conscience ; as i shall have occasion to shew toward the end of this paper . much less is that any force upon conscence , when men are punish'd for treason , or for treasonable principles . for those principles are treason in bullion , and will be coyn'd out , whensoever the pope pleases to set the mint going ; and that he will do , whensover he thinks it time to pay off any king that does not please him . but i cannot say so , when men that have no such principles , are punish'd as if they had ; and are either put to death , or made unable to live , unless they will part with those things in their religion which are purely and simply erroneous , and which have no ill influence upon the state any otherwise than as it is inconvenient to have different religions in being together in the kingdom . this severity is truly a force upon conscience . and 't is very unreasonable besides , that the simply erroneous should be made to feel the weight of that punishment , than which no greater could be inflicted by law , if their errours were heightned and envenom'd with all the malignity of that which we call properly popery . 't is also against the ancient practice of christianity . for the christians , when they came to have power in their hands , did not punish either pagans or jews , with either sanguinary or mulctative laws ; nor ( for ought that appears ) thought it reasonable for them so to do . i confess they did after a while punish donatists with pecuniary penalties , and kept both them and all the rest under divers incapacities ; and the same reason they had for so doing , is enough to induce the church and state of england to deal as they do now with dissenters , and especially with roman catholicks , in keeping them under incapacitating laws . if it be objected , that those who were so favourably dealt with in those first christian times , did not communicate with any that were dangerous to the state , as those do who pretend to the like favour amongst us ; and that while they communicate with men of disloyal principles , it may be thought not unfit to involve them in the same punishment that is due to men of those principles : it will be answer'd , that they do not communicate with them in any disloyal doctrine or practice , and therefore they ought not to be joyn'd with them in the punishment of those doctrines or practices . god forbid , that innocents should be handled as nocents , for being of the same communion with them . we should think it very hard and unreasonable , that honest men and good protestants , who communicate in the church and worship of god with such as prove to be traytors or felons , must therefore partake with them in suffering for their misdeeds . if it be farther objected , that among the roman catholicks , there are many who are faln off from the church of england , and that such men , at least , deserve punishment for their apostacy , and much more the priests or others that wheedled them away : i cannot deny , that in this case we have a just provocation to severity . and we have an example before us in the roman church , which if we should follow , it would go hard with such persons . they which turn from them to us , find no mercy in those popish countries where the inquisition is setled , nor much favour in any other . but we are not bound to follow those examples . and therefore setting them aside , and considering things without provocation , i must needs say , that the simplicity of most of their converts , seems to me to deserve rather pity , than any hard punishment . they are generally such as understood not their own religion , before they suffer'd themselves to be fool'd out of it . otherwise , if they are learned and knowing men , who thus leave our communion , which i think rarely happens , and specially if they are converts to downright popery ; it cannot but argue , that such persons are vehemently lead by their affections , and therefore they may be justly suspected of ill design , and of forming to themselves some interest against the laws . and if that be true , it cannot be deny'd , that they deserve to suffer all that the laws have ordain'd for such persons . yet if men of knowledge and parts , though they have deserted our church , can content themselves to be strangers , and not enemies ; and will prove it , by declaring against all the popes usurpations , which will be a certain bar to their preferment , and therefore may be a good proof of their sincerity ; in this case , i do not see but we may live quietly with them , and perhaps the more safely by their means . what laws are now in force against them that shall be reconcil'd ; or that shall reconcile others , to the church of rome , were intended to keep men from being poyson'd with popery ; against which those laws were severe enough , and yet not more than there was cause . and yet according to the wording of those laws , he is equally to suffer the penalty of them , that draws others , or that is drawn himself , into the roman communion , though not into popery , as we have defin'd it . i do not know , that those penalties have been inflicted on any one offender these many years ; nor has it been considered , what the principles were , either of them that were seduced , or of them that seduced them ; and 't were hard , that the impunity of them who have directly transgress'd the intent of those laws , should be a snare to them that have only transgress'd the letter of them . therefore , i humbly conceive , that whatsoever retrospection is made , it ought to be with some kind of discrimination . and it were to be wish'd for the future , that the old laws may be put in ure against them that seduce others , or are seduced into popery ; and that some gentler laws may be made against them that shall enter into that communion , though they do acquit themselves of those dangerous principles . but how this may be done , i humbly leave to the wisdom of the state to consider . the third reason which i mention'd against an undistinguishing severity , was this , that it would be against the interest of the church and state of england . both those great interests are united together in the preservation of the monarchy . for monarchy is essential to the state , as is visible in the constitution of it . and for the church of england , as she is the best support of the monarchy , so she is supported by it , and must either fall with it , or be brought into a very low condition ; as we have seen by the experience of late years . now of all sorts and parties among us , that dissent from the church of england , there is none but has principles which seem to look ill upon monarchy ; nor is there any that has not explain'd the meaning of them by their practices , at one time or other within our memory . to specifie this in instances of all , would be needless ; for i know no sort of dissenters that go about to justifie themselves wholly in this matter , except only roman catholicks . among them , some late writers would bear us down , that they are , and have been always , faithful to the monarchy . it were better said by others of that church , than by some of them that have written this . but the truth is , they are a mixt communion , whereof the governing part of the clergy are thorough-papists ; and therefore neither they , nor any of their faction can be right friends to such a monarchy as we speak of , whatsoever they pretend . many of the inferior clergy , and of the laiety of that communion are no papists ; as i have shewn in this paper , and they have shewn it themselves , in adhering to monarchy against the pope himself . of both these sorts of roman catholicks , we have lately seen the tryal in ireland ; where for some years they agreed in nothing , but that some times they went to church together . their bishops , and the rest of the chief of their clergy , were indeed the pope's creatures and subjects . for they had sworn allegiance to him , and received a right from him , as well to the temporalties , as to the spiritualties of their titular preferments . what the pope's meaning was in preferring them , we may guess by what follow'd . for as soon as they saw an opportunity for it , they formed a rebellion in that kingdom against the king. and when the pope sent his nuncio to head it , they joyn'd with him , and drove the king's lieutenant out of the kingdom . which accursed rebellion of theirs , lost the king , not only that kingdom , but the other two kingdoms , and his life in the end . and yet they of that faction in ireland , are so far from acknowledging that they did any ill in all this , that within these ten years , the general-assembly * of the clergy of that nation , in plain terms , refus'd to ask his majesties pardon for any thing that had been done in the late war by any of the clergy of that kingdom . this was a sufficient demonstration of the prevalence of those popish principles among them , and of the ill influence they have upon monarchy . yet there was even then as plain a demonstration of better principles in others of that communion . for some there were , though much fewer in number , who kept their allegiance to the king throughout that whole rebellion , and fought for him against the pope himself , in the person of his nuncio ; and having one while got a great part of the laity to joyn with them , they prevail'd so far as to drive him out of the kingdom . but they , and all the rest that serv'd the king in that nation , were excommunicated for it by the nuncio and his clergy in ireland ; and that sentence being judicially ratified at rome , i am assured that many of them do continue under it to this day . in england it is to be observ'd in all our histories , that , even in popish times , there were those that stood up for the rights of the crown against the pope's usurpations ; and that they which did so , were the generality of the people of this nation . how else came those laws of provisors , &c. to pass in parliament , though the spiritual lords oppos'd them with all their might , and protested against them , as oft as such laws came before them ? how came king henry viii to pass his law against the papal supremacy ? which in effect contain'd no more than those former laws did : and yet the bishops at that time , not only voted for it , but set their hands to a book that was writ in defence of it ; and some of the most learned among them , writ besides on that subject as good discourses as were written in that age. and how came the whole kingdom to stand by him ( as they did , both before and after the dissolution of monasteries ) against the pope's bull of * excommunication and deprivation ? which bull , i conceive was that which first made the schism . though this breach was made up again by queen mary , who restor'd the pope's authority , to strengthen her own right to the crown , which otherwise had hung by the single thred of an act of parliament ; yet by what pass'd before , it sufficiently appears to have been the judgment of our forefathers in former ages , that popery is no part of the catholick doctrine . that it has more obtained since , and that the number of papists has increas'd among the english of that communion , i partly ascribe to the great offence which was taken at first here in england against the reformation . the horse is said to have first taken up man upon his back , to hunt down his enemy . and for the same end , i conceive , the roman catholicks suffer'd the pope to saddle them in queen mary's days . they could not have gratified him more , than by letting him ride and hunt together ; both which he loves dearly . soon after , the pope having by his council of trent , made articles of faith of their controverted opinions , it could not but oblige them to look kindly on all that he did for himself in that council . after which , 't is no wonder that queen elizabeth found the world so much alter'd since her father's time . i think 't is observable , that when he was curs'd and bann'd by the pope , as she afterwards was , yet he had not one attempt made against his life . some rebellions he had against him , but those not so much in the pope's quarrel , as in the common people's , who were enrag'd at him for dissolving the monasteries . but queen elizabeth , who had little to do of that kind , and who generally pleas'd the people otherwise , and was therefore not so liable to be shockt with rebellions ; yet for all that , when the pope mark'd her out for destruction , some or other of her subjects were continually driving practices to take away her life . i mention this as a great instance of the growth of popery among the people of that communion . and yet no doubt she knew those among them that were no papists ; or else she would not have made visits to them , as she did in the most dangerous times ; nor have protected their priests , without sufficient assurance of their loyalty . yet she had not that way of assurance which k. iames found out afterwards , and which the pope himself help'd to make the more satisfactory . for when ( as i have said ) upon occasion of the gunpowder treason , k. iames requir'd the oath of allegiance to be taken by all his subjects ; and pope paul v. requir'd all his subjects to refuse it : it was easie from thenceforward , among the roman catholicks , to know which were the pope's , and which were the king's subjects ; for each of them would do the will of their lord , and what they did they maintain'd on both sides . i think there needs no better defence for the rights of the crown against the pope and his faction , than has been made by one of their priests , namely , * preston , in his books for the oath of allegiance . now this being the only test appointed by law , and this being already taken by many roman catholicks , who profess themselves ready to take any other that the state shall prescribe , for the securing it self against popery ; i conceive that such persons being taken off by this means from all dependance of the pope , ought in reason to be accounted good subjects . for if their principles be such as they swear they are , as well their principles , as their oath , will make them firm to the monarchy . and nothing can be imagin'd to make them against it , or to loosen them from it , but the pope's dispensation , against which they secure us as the law directs them to do . for they both swear expresly , that they will not take any such dispensation , and that they believe the pope has no power to give it . i do not say , but while they continue in that communion , they are continually liable to be tempted and drawn from these principles : and i know no way the state has to help it , but by making them often renew their security ; as i shall humbly propose in due place . but while they keep to their principles ; which in relation to monarchy , are the same that the church of england holds ; though she ought to desire their conversion , and to seek it by all lawful means , yet i see not why she should desire to have them driven away , or disabled from assisting her in defence of the monarchy . now there is nothing more plain , than that this party of roman catholicks must be utterly disabled and destroy'd by an undistinguishing execution of the laws . for if they have no favour at home , they are sure to find worse abroad . there they must learn to hate their own country , by suffering for having loved it too well . when they have spent what they can carry over with them , they must want , and may perish ere they find relief . while their zealous antagonists , the true sons of the pope , are received with all kindness wheresoever they come ; and when they have weathered out the storm , they are sure to be sent back with full pockets , and fresh supplies , and such instructions as may fit the change of times . then we shall , if it should happen , which god forbid , see the fruit of an undistinguishing severity . we shall see the destruction of a considerable number of men , that were friends to the government , and that would have been useful at such a time . or we shall see them return with other principles , and become enemies to the government , which used them as enemies , and wholly joyn'd in affection to them that fed them in their exile . in few words , we shall see the popish faction ( truly so called ) return with more hope to do mischief , and with more power to do it , than ever they had before . they could never yet make all of their communion to joyn with them in any design against the government . but then undoubtedly they will , if there be not a sufficient number left of the other side to oppose them . they at rome are thought to understand their own interest well . and there is reason they should ; for it is the study of that place . and i suppose , 't is not in favour to the church or state of england , but for the interest of rome , that they are very well pleas'd with an undistinguishing execution of the penal laws in england against the roman catholicks ; and are so far from desiring to have it otherwise , that they hate and detest all distinction , and declare him their enemy that desires it . this might be proved by more instances than are proper for this place . but i shall give one or two that are sufficient . and first of former days : widdrington , * a priest of the roman communion , gives this following relation : that q. elizabeth having discovered , that she was minded to shew favour to as many roman catholick priests , as should give her assurance of their loyalty , and to exempt them from suffering the penalties of her laws ; some well-meaning men went to rome to carry the good news , as they thought it . but when they were come thither , they found themselves much mistaken . instead of thanks , they were reproach'd by the governing party , and branded with the name of schismaticks , spies , and rebels to the see apostolic . and moreover ( saith our author ) there was one of that party ( * f. f. ) compiled a treatise in italian , to advise his holiness , that it was not good nor profitable to the catholick cause , that any liberty or toleration should be granted by the state of england to catholicks . secondly , what their judgment is at present concerning this matter , i know not who can inform us better than the pope's nuncio's . he that now is , or lately was at brussels , falconieri , the internuncio of burgundy and the low-countries , i suppose has a power given him over our roman catholicks ; for his immediate predecessor airoldi had it , and came over hither in hope to establish his jurisdiction in england . this falconieri was inform'd , while the parliament were yet sitting , in march was twelve month , that divers roman catholick peers had taken the oath of allegiance ; which provoked him so far , that he lash'd out these words , it were better there were not a catholick left in england , than that they should take that oath to free themselves from persecution . this relation i had from one of that communion , whom i have very much reason to credit . and yet , if any one doubts of his testimony , he may see as much written by a nuncio himself , who was also this man's predecessor . i think his words go something beyond those of falconieri , unless they like the oath of allegiance better than the irish remonstrance ; which whosoever compares them , will judge they cannot well do , according to their principles . and yet of that remonstrance it was , that the former nuncio vecchii gave his judgment in these words , it may do more hurt and mischief to the church of god ( viz. to the popish faction in it ) than any persecution that ever was from the hereticks . i doubt not , the late pope's nuncio , that waged war in ireland against our late king , if he had lived to these times , would have been of the same mind . he would have endeavoured to keep his party together , and not let them be separated by a test. he would have told them , they were as good have ask'd pardon for what they had done , as promised to do so no more ; which promise in fewer words was the effect of that remonstrance . by these indications , we may guess at that which might otherwise have been a mystery to us , namely , why so many leading-men of that communion in england , who refuse to take the oath of allegiance , are so much against the framing of any other test. it might seem very strange , that they who are so loud , above all others , in crying out of persecution , are yet so extremely averse from doing that which is the only sure way to avoid it ; namely , from giving publick security to the state. but their meaning is plain . they would not have popery garbled out of their religion ; nor those principles forsworn , that may be useful when time serves . if 't were known who are the pope's , and who are the king's subjects , it were to be feared the pope's would be left single ; and that they themselves would be found to be of that number . i cannot blame them , that they had much rather keep themselves in the herd ; and therefore perswade all men of their church , rather to run the hazard of a general undistinguishing persecution , than to submit to such a test , as may enable the state to know its enemies . it is plain , that he whom they serve , may despair of arriving at his ends upon england , any otherwise than by one of these two ways ; viz. either by an undistinguishing execution of the laws against all roman catholicks in general ; or by an undistinguishing toleration to them all ; and for their sakes , to all other dissenters whatsoever . by the former way , popery , ( properly so called ) would be kept from appearing in the light , which it does not love . it would pass undiscovered , in the croud , among principles of religion . and the people , by little and little , would come to be perswaded , that they ought to suffer as much for their obedience to the pope , as for their belief in god. than which there is no one thing that our hildebrandists drive at with more zeal ; and no doubt the pope would buy it with all his heart , at the hazard of leaving not one roman catholick in england . though the hazard would not be so great to them , that should be his prime agents in this business . for they would be sure to keep themselves out of harms way . and all the danger should light on bigots , and such hot-headed men ; who , though living , they are worth nothing ; yet , when they dye , leave treasures to the church . for they must presently be cryed up for martyrs . and then , what can be said enough to the glory of the apostles that sent them forth , and of the apostolick see , and of christ's vicar that sits in it ? happy men , that are sure to have their bodies work miracles , wheresoever their souls be ! and blessed cause for which such men did not stick to sacrifice their lives ! if there happens a leading-man , a garnet to be taken among them , there is a loss indeed , for which perhaps the straw makes not a sufficient recompence . yet this loss falls on persons only , and not on the cause . the tenets , which do all the mischief , not only escape , but gain ground . if they were not de fide before , now they are , being seal'd with the blood of martyrs , and attested with miracles . and this faith is not like to want preachers worthy of it self . for there will be always men enough left of the worse sort : the most subtle and dangerous , will save themselves one way or other . they 'll be sure to get out of the way , till they see their own time to shew themselves ; and then they will appear the more venerable to the party , as being the brethren and successors of them that died for their religion . by the other way of undistinguishing toleration , they would have divers advantages , more than i shall mention in this place . for it is not my business here to write against toleration , but rather against an undistinguishing of laws . but that i may not seem by this means , to desire to perswade a toleration , which i take to be much worse than the other , i shall shew the danger of it in these following particulars : for first , they look upon toleration as a sure way to destroy the establish'd religion . and therefore in all countries where popery is establish'd , they are so far from admitting any toleration , that they look upon him that speaks for it as their enemy , and count none their sure friends , but them that set up the inquisition . by which also here in england , if england were theirs , they would make a short work with all those other dissenters , whom now they seem to look upon with compassion , and to plead against persecution , and wish liberty of conscience , for their sakes . they would not have the thorn be disturb'd , while it is in their enemies sides ; but if it were out , they would burn it , for fear it should be a thorn in their own . another use of toleration among us , would be to weaken the government ; as needs it must , if the strength of the government consists in the hearts of the subjects . a most unjust and wickedly manag'd jealousie of our late blessed king's inclination to popery , first lost him the hearts of his people . which jealousie being confirm'd , by his granting ( as it was said ) a toleration of popery in ireland , they grew wild upon it , and would never come at him more . or if they would , it was too late , when his enemies had gotten him in their hands . i think 't is visible now , that as well as all parties among us love liberty , there , is none of them wish it to roman catholicks ; unless it be with design to blow up the like jealousie again . god forbid there should be any such design now on foot . but if there be , they that drive it , are not altogether fools . they have reason to think , that if the government were away , they might be able to make their party good against the roman catholicks . nor can our papists be such fools , to imagine , that they alone can make head against the other dissenters . it is possible they may hope , that if it should come to that , the men of our church would joyn with them . but that wi●l never be , unless they get the government of their side . which they very ill deserve , if they ask a toleration , before they have converted , at least , half the kingdom . and this they would consider , if it were any part of their care to preserve the government of the nation . but there is but one government in the world , for which thorough-papists are concern'd . all the rest are to be brought under this ; and those that will not bend to it , must be broken . it matters not into what form they are reduced , whether of kingdom , or free-states , or common-wealth . much less are those of hildebrand's sect concern'd for this or that family . a cromwel would have serv'd their turn ( when time was ) as well as a stuart . for , i suppose they that courted him to be the restorer of the catholick religion , would not have dealt so coursly with him , as to turn him out for his pains . but that which makes their teeth ake against the present government , is , to see it united with the church of england . which church being likely enough to be destroy'd by a toleration , if the same means will embroyl the kingdom too , they will like it never the worse . the old fisherman whom they serve , fishes best in troubled waters . he never made such a draught here in england , as he did in the late times of confusion . and then also in ireland , he had almost a whole kingdom in his net ; though for want of strength , he could not draw it ashore . but in case a toleration should not have that most desirable effect , of blowing up a civil war , nor any other way weaken the government ( which to me seems impossible ; ) yet at least there would be hope , that it might some way strengthen the party . if they could but have the face , which they seldom want , and that colour withal , which this would give them , to say , that this liberty was granted in favour to popery , and that this favour was an earnest of more , and that now all would be theirs very speedily , no doubt many would believe them . and not a few by the power of this belief , would be drawn to joyn with them ; and to be the more welcome , would present them , as well with their loyalty as with their religion . it would also be a means to wear off the strangeness between them and the other sects . for , those who were content to enjoy toleration with them , though with design to try it out , who should be masters at last , when they had trod down the church of england between them ; yet would have some conversation with them the mean while . and i suppose , a cunning jesuite would be able now and then to convince a simple sectary . howsoever that might succeed ; they would be united together , in one common interest , though with different designs . they would both be concern'd to keep up the toleration . they would engage together against the enemies of it . and there insensibly grows a kindness between men that sail in the same ship together , though they are bound for different ports . but although this good effect may be procur'd by a general suspension , or rather a repeal of the penal laws ; yet if that cannot be had , the same will follow in some measure upon an undistinguishing execution of them . and therefore , if there be no remedy but that they must be executed , it is the interest of the popish faction , to have them felt by as many as is possible . perhaps it were for their turn to have them fear'd rather than felt . for the smart of the rod would cure many of their distempers , that are enrag'd by having it shaken over them . but either the threatning of the law , or a light execution of it , being extended to all , would suffice to do their business . and if that severity , which were a means to cure many , would exasperate all the rest , i conceive that would do it much better . for all other dissenters being brought under the lash as well as roman catholicks , no doubt would be as much dissatisfied with the government and laws . they would joyn with them in aspersing the state with injustice and cruelty . they would add to their noise , by crying out of persecution for conscience . and all men loving naturally to be pitied , they that study popular arts , can easily find how to take men by this handle , and to draw them nearer themselves , and to make a mischievous use of them . i know i do not teach them , by saying , that such accidents may arise , in which 't were very possible for the jesuites to make such a conjunction with some of our fanaticks , as might create no small trouble and danger to church and state. but if other dissenters are not yet angry enough with the government , or if they know the jesuits so well that they will not deal with them , or if they will give nothing for the priviledge of being eaten last ( for any of these things may very well happen ) then these gentlemen have none left to work upon but roman catholicks . and of them they have all reason to be secure , unless they are very loyally principled . the only way to work on such , is , by drawing them off from their principles . and that they may hope to do , when they find them uneasie , and out of humour . as it cannot be expected but they will be , if they are made to suffer the severity of the laws . they that have been faithful to the government , and know themselves to intend no other , and are ready to give any proof of it ; yet to see themselves ruin'd by the government , or to be kept in continual fear of it , must needs be discompos'd , and think themselves very hardly dealt with . then , if a jesuite step in , and endeavour to convince him , that all their suffering is for religion ; and not for treasonable principles ; if he instance in that loyal person himself , and bids him judge by his own experience , he cannot but feel himself suffer ; he knows himself free from disloyalty , therefore his suffering can be for nothing else but his religion : he must be a man of more than ordinary abstraction , that can discern the fallacy of this reasoning . and he that cannot find that , had need stop his ears , with a resolution to hear nothing against the government , or else the jesuite will be too hard for him . he had need be as resolute in his loyalty , as in his religion . for the proof being made , as well to his sense , as to his reason , it looks like an argument against transubstantiation . if the person so attack'd be a very iob in holding his integrity ; if no argument will move him , nor no other temptation draw him from it : yet he must yield to want , which can neither be hid nor resisted . there are many good men that live from hand to mouth , and that hardly enough , while they enjoy their estates . if any of these be deprived of so much as the law would take from him , he cannot live with that which he has left . and then if a pension be offer'd him out of the jesuites bank , or out of the pope's coffers , he will scarce know how to refuse it . necessity will make a generous man do that , which he would hate to think of in better circumstances . and having eaten their bread , he will find it a hard matter to keep himself disengag'd from their interests . much more , if he suffer himself once to be engag'd , he will find it impossible to untwist himself afterwards . and 't is next to impossible , for him that has been oblig'd by their benefits , and as it were , listed in service , and taken pay on the enemies side , to have any kindness left for his country , that drove him to all this . i know but one instance , that of david in gath , of a man that was put to all these streights , and yet not corrupted in his principles . i shew but one way of many , how men that are very good subjects , and desire nothing more than to continue so , may be spoil'd with hard usage , and made enemies against their inclinations . which , being added to those things said before on this head , may be more than enough to make good my third reason , against an undistinguishing execution of the laws on roman catholicks ; as being against the interest of the church and state of england . and this seems so evident to me , that i have no manner of doubt , that as the best news we could send to rome , would be of a general toleration of all religions and sects whatsoever ; so , next to that ( which i know would please them best ) the most welcome news would be , to assure them , that all the laws here in england against roman catholicks , were severely and indifferently put in execution . and i am as sure , that nothing would trouble them more , than to hear of such a discrimination or distinction of roman catholicks , as i come now to propound . for , now to speak on the affirmative side of the debate , this seems to be the only way for suppressing of popery , if the state will be pleas'd to distinguish btween papists and other roman catholicks : and so to shew favour to the one , upon security given of their loyalty ; as that the other , who will not give that security , may have no part of that favour , but be left to the severity of all those laws that have been , or shall be made against their principles and practices . my reasons are , 1. because this course being taken , would be effectual to the end above-mentioned . 2. it would be equitable in it self . 3. and it would be for the interest of the church and state of england . i shew'd before , that the undistinguishing way had not any of those three properties or qualities . now the way which i propound being contrary to it , must have all the three by the rule of contraries ; and i conceive i need no other proof . but to make the matter more plain , i shall resume these three reasons , and prove them severally in the order propos'd . 1. this course would be effectual . for it would take away the causes of popery . the only immediate causes , which have either propagated or preserved popery so long in this kingdom , notwithstanding all laws that have been made against it , as well anciently as of late times , are chiefly these two . on one side , the great boldness and business of the truly popish clergy , in asserting and crying up all papal pretences whatsoever . on the other side , the tameness of the other clergy of that communion , or whatsoever else their fault is , and has been , in not opposing those papal pretences . for the former of these , i think 't is very visible in all the iesuites that come among us , and in most of the other regular orders , and not a few of the seculars ; that their chief business amongst us , is to advance the pope's authority in all things , and to reduce all men under the obedience of it . 't is true , they have not yet seen their time to attempt this by open war. they have not set up the holy banner in england , and plac'd the pope's nuncio in the head of an army against the king ; as their brethren did in ireland , and do not repent of it . but neither will our popish clergy say , that those in ireland did ill in it . they have neither declared their dislike of that rebellion by any publick act : nor among all the books they have writ since the king's restauration , has any one of their writers writ so much as one line against it , that ever i could see or hear of . but their books abound with those principles out of which that rebellion was hatch'd . they are slily insinuated in those which are to be had at every stall . and there are those that pass from hand to hand , in which this treason is the main scope of their writing . by which we may guess what wholesome doctrine it is that they infuse upon occasion in private , when they are among their own people . what kind of preaching and catechising they use . what information of their penitents . what ghostly counsel they give ; and what loyal directions of conscience . and if we had nothing else to discover them to us , we may soon find what kind of spiritual offices they perform , by the fruit of them , in the perversness and obstinacy of so many of their laity , who choose to do or endure any thing , rather than take the oath of allegiance . i deny not , that there are other priests of that communion , who , as far as we can judge by their private discourse , seem to be rightly principled , and well inclined towards the civil government . there are those that seem to be heartily for the independency of the crown of england ; and that hold , that the external government of the church ought to be in the king , in such manner as the laws of the land do or shall prescribe ; and who are firmly perswaded , that the contrary positions of popery are as bad as they are declared to be in the oath of allegiance . and some of them have declared this very honestly and publickly in their writings , both heretofore and of late days . i think i should do them no service in naming them . for as things now are , it would only provoke and enable those of the former sort to do them mischief . which we see , they are prone enough to do , by their traducing them publickly , though priests of the same church ; and branding them with the characters of schism , heresie , apostacy , &c. and thereby setting the people of their communion against them . but whereas those honest men of that communion tell us , that there are many more of their principles among the secular clergy , and also among the regulars of inferior rank and condition : i cannot but say , that if they are not mistaken , there is a great fault among them on the other hand . those many good men , of whom they tell us , are much to blame , that they do not declare against the pope's usurpation ; but rather strengthen it by their sinful compliance and silence . either they do not think it so bad as they pretend ; or else what wretches are they to juggle with the consciences of their people ? how can they answer it to god , from whom they pretend to have these souls given them in charge , that they do not warn them of so dangerous a sin , that has slain its thousands and ten thousands in our streets ? why do they suffer so great a scandal to lye upon their church , and such a danger to hang over the civil state , while they that are the spiritual watchmen see it , and yet hold their peace ? nay , worse than so , the dog fawns upon the wolf. these honest men , if they may yet be so called , hold very good quarter and fellowship with those , whom they know to be zealots for popery . they make their court to them , of whom they cannot be ignorant that both their principles and their interest lead them to it ; that is in effect , they are so officious to stand by and hold the horses of them that are committing a robbery ; or worse employ'd , in doing all those evils above-mentioned . i cannot see how they can excuse this any otherwise , than by alledging , that all their compliance is for fear of being ruin'd , and imprison'd , and starv'd , as some of their brethren have been , for doing their duty ; and more are like to be , if some course be not taken to protect them against the rage of their implacable enemies . not to judge of the sufficiency of this excuse , i confess there is reason for what they say . for 't is visible what became of those church-men of their communion , who have given the highest test of their loyalty , who have scorn'd all those servile compliances , and who have declared against popery by their actions and writings . 't is the easier to observe this , because there have been so few of them , i think not above two or three in an age. they have been fain to stand the mark of a violent endless persecution , both from the court of rome , and from all its faction in england . and , however it came to pass , they did not find that countenance , which they might have expected from the state , in defence of whose rights they drew all that wrath upon themselves . we have a great example of this in preston , who having both taken the oath of allegiance himself , and maintain'd it against all the great champions of popery , was fain to take sanctuary in the clink , and glad to hide his head there for many years before he died . another learned man , dr. barnes , the famous author of romano-catholicus pacificus , had not leave to choose a prison to dye in . for he was spirited by the pope's emissaries , and carried away to rome , and thrown into the inquisition there . what became of him since , we shall know at the day of judgment . if these be their ways to maintain , and to propagate popery , we cannot be to seek for our way to suppress it . for it is manifest , that this cannot be more effectually done , than by such a discrimination as has been propounded . on the one hand it would be a means to preserve those few men of that communion among us , who have already declared against the popes vsurpations . and the same course that should be taken to keep them out of danger , would also be a means to free all other men of their principles , from the fear under which they have been kept so many years . whether at this present they have more or less cause to apprehend the popish faction , they will be the better able to judg , when they see what is done in monsieur luzance's case . for as there is no reason to doubt , that those gentlemen , if they find they may do what they please , will do no less to those of their own communion , that oppose their grand design , than they attempted on him that had deserted their communion : so , if the state shall think fit to check their audacious insolence in this case , by some exemplary punishment , though i doubt they will not forsake the land upon it , yet it is to be hoped , that they will upon some other act of state , to which this may be a very good introduction . sure enough , if the laws were duly executed on all those that will not give sufficient security to the state , we should soon be rid of all , or most part of their company . and then it would be a time for better men to shew themselves . those that did give security , would be obliged in their own defence , if no otherwise , to own the principles by which they were warranted to give it . besides , it would be as well their interest , as their duty , to disabuse that great part of the laity whom those hildebrandists had fed with lies these fourscore years . it would concern them to possess themselves as well of their consciences , as of their chappels ; and therefore to make them see , how vast a distance there is between that faith which had been chiefly inculcated into them ( i mean , the properly popish faith ) and the primitive christian ; and to convince them what a cursed immorality they have been taught all this while , under the name of obedience to the church ; and to shew them , that the way which their former guides have conspired to miscal by the glorious name of holy martyrdom , is the down-right way to hell. having thus declar'd that most necessary truth , to which both their interest and conscience led them ; the same reasons would oblige them to love home , and to study the peace of their country . they would have little business at rome ; and that would be so ill done there , that they would not be encourag'd to send thither again . on the other hand , of the pope's faction in england , if the laws were so executed , as i have said , none could remain here but only hypocrites and equivocators . and their stay would be very uncomfortable , if they kept silence ; but worse , if they discovered themselves , for then they must expect to suffer the severity of the laws . they must either hang like bare-fac'd traytors , without any pretence of the crown of martyrdom ; or they must take it for a favour , that they may have leave to go after their fellows . and they that are once out of the kingdom , will have no hope to come in again . to be sure they shall not , if the priests of their own church can keep them out , or can discover them lurking in it . nor , i suppose , will any of the laity be very forward to harbour them . we have no reason to think , that any man should be so unreasonable , to venture neck or purse , for the reception of them for whom his soul is not concern'd , when he might without danger , or any apprehension of it , enjoy the exercise of his religion ; when he might have all the offices of it performed by other priests , as canonical in their mission , and as exemplary in their lives ; men free from exception every way , save that they have no tincture of hildebrand's doctrine . if that be it that makes them so in love with a jesuite , that nothing seems sacred that comes out of any other hand , the state has just cause to suspect from whence that niceness proceeds , and to treat them as those that hold correspondence with its enemies . nor can they in this case have any colour to pretend , that they suffer for their religion , who might have enjoy'd their religion , without mingling it with that treason for which they suffer . and however the matter may be thought of by him at rome , whose judgment we ought not to value in this case , i believe no foreign prince will think this a persecution of roman-catholicks . france thought it none , when time was , to banish the jesuites . nor venice to turn out three orders together , which were all that submitted to the pope's interdict and excommunication . there is no reason to doubt , that any other state of that communion would have done the like , upon as great an occasion . so that if any of those states should interpose in favour of those against whom the state of england has so just an exception , it might seem as if they did not so much desire to have them taken in here , as to rid their own country of such vermin , as they would not be willing to harbour . they have reason to apprehend , that those that we send over to them , would teach their own people to do like them , and put the authority there to the trouble of doing the same thing that ours have done here , and which themselves have been fain to do in former times . i say not but any prince that were in hostility , or that thought himself likely ere long to break with england , might be ready to receive this sort of men , as he would do other spies and traytors to their country . there were very great reason , that a prince in those circumstances should consider these men , as being most compleatly qualified for all such purposes . and because the pope is a sure enemy to all them that are for the suppressing of popery , i doubt not , they would find him ready to mingle his quarrels with theirs , and his instruments would work much the better , when they received their impulse from his hand . but all this would last no longer than until those princes thought it their best way to be at peace with us . and that would soon be , if we were at unity among our selves : as we should be , if none were suffered to live among us , but such as might live in an easie , or very tolerable condition . then those princes would soon ease themselves of the burthen , and give the pope leave to find some other way to keep his vermin . which after a while , he would do with such italian frugality , that if their rents were stop'd here in england , they would soon look as thin as fauxes lanthorn ; or to describe them to the life , they would be like envy in the poet. i need not trouble the reader , with minding him , that in case of such a discrimination , there could be no danger of the increase either of priests or seminaries abroad , and as little danger of any commiseration or pity at home , to hinder it from being effectual . it is obvious to every apprehension , that the removal of these dangers would be one of the necessary consequences of it . for who does not see , that if the roman catholicks , on such terms as i have describ'd , might enjoy their religion , and their estates , and their liberty , they would not count them their friends that would perswade them to throw away that enjoyment . doubtless , if some few did not know when they were well , the generality of them would understand it . and both they of their own church , and much more the protestants , would think them not to be pitied , that should lose what they had thrown away with their own hands , especially when they considered , for what end these men did it ; that it was out of a restless desire to bring a foreign tyrannical yoke upon their country . therefore , since by this , and what else has been said on this head , we cannot but see , that the only immediate causes , not only of the propagation , but preservation of popery in this kingdom ; ( viz. the great business and boldness of them of the popish faction , and the great tameness and fearfulness of the other clergy of that communion among us ) would be quite removed by such a discrimination of roman catholicks : we cannot but conclude with the same evidence , that such a discrimination would be effectual to suppress popery in this kingdom . for nothing can be more clear in natural reason then that , wheresoever the only immediate causes both of the propagation and conservation of any thing ceases , there that thing it self must cease to be . and after all that has been said already , we cannot rationally doubt , whether by such a discrimination , those only immediate causes of the preservation and propagation of popery would cease to be any longer in england . 't is manifest to every considering man , that in case of such a discriminating course , duly and constantly held , the busie agents for popery , must either give up their cause , or fly their country . and either way will do our business . if any of them stay , they will do their part toward it , by giving security to the state. which cannot be without the renouncing of popery . if they all go , it will be a blessed riddance of them and popery together . for the active part or soul of it will depart with the jesuites . and the body or scheme of doctrines will be interr'd by those whom they leave behind them , or rather hang'd up , for it does not deserve christian burial . 2. such a discrimination would also be just and equitable . for it would be according to the intention of the laws of this kingdom , and most agreeable to the eternal law of reason , and the ancient practice of the christian world. by all these rules i have shewn , that it is not just nor equitable , that the penalties of the laws , as now they are , should be inflicted on all roman catholicks indifferently , without any respect of loyal or disloyal . and in proving this , i have sufficiently shewn , ( for it follows by the rule of contraries above-mention'd , ) that it is both just and equitable , that all of that religion , who being faulty in nothing else , shall give such assurance of their loyalty , as the state shall think fit to require , should enjoy an exemption from those penalties , which were never intended for such persons . but of this more shall be spoken in due place . for them , on the other hand , who refuse to give such an assurance , and by their obstinacy therein , would keep the state in perpetual jealousie , and expose it to the danger of unknown enemies , who cannot be known from good subjects , but by such a way of distinction as they endeavour to obstruct : i conceive 't is just and equitable , that the state should look upon them either as enemies , or at least , as the concealers of enemies . if they are only concealers of such enemies as our papalins are , it is just that they should suffer for it in the same degree as they transgress against the law , and as they hinder the security of the state. and it is no small transgression in them , that not only disobey the law , but ( as far as in them lies ) make many laws utterly useles . for those laws being provided for the security of the state against a sect , or rather faction of men , who are dangerous in the highest degree , and for whom the law has therefore procured the highest punishment ; it is certainly a great presumption of those , who in spight , and as it were in defiance of the law , will keep them not only from being punisht , but from being so much as distinguisht . now it is evident that the papalins are such a faction , whose principles lead them , when they see their opportunity , to subvert the present government and laws both of the church and kingdom of england . it is certain that in pursuance of these principles , they have attempted to do all this more than once within these last hundred years . and this in favour to the pretences of a foreiner , who has more than one dormant title to the sovereignty of england , who actually invaded ireland in queen elizabeths days , and usurpt the royal power there by his nuncio in our age ; who assumes to himself in some cases ( whereof he makes himself the only judge ) a right to dispose of all states and kingdoms whatsoever . if therefore any state may justly endeavour to preserve it self against a forein enemy , and may make laws to restrain their own people from joyning with them , and may punish with death or otherwise , as many as shall presume to break those laws ; england has all this right within it self , as well as any other state , and may use it as well against the pope as against any other enemy . and therefore the state may require all its subjects to declare against his usurpation , and to renounce all those principles that are any way favourable to it . if any of them shall refuse to do do this , the state may justly punish them , whether with death or otherwise , according to its laws ; which in this point are enacted with the highest reason , and backt with all other laws , divine and humane , &c. with the practice not only of other christian states , but of all other nations in the world . i know the refusers will be ready to say , their conscience will not suffer them to declare against that power which the pope assumes to himself , nor to renounce those ill principles which they say are a part of their religion . no doubt they that are through-papists have great reason to say this . for popery , as i have shewn , does consist of such principles , which though , as to the matter of them , they are truly secular and political , yet go veiled under the sacred name of religion . they whose interest it is to have them believed , are pleased to make them articles of the catholick faith. and no doubt it takes with many . for we see there are those that do not stick to sacrifice their lives for those principles . and what can be dearer to men than their lives , but religion ? we see they do not spare the lives of men of opposite principles , against whom they profess to have no other quarrel but religion . and we have reason to believe them ; for 't is what our saviour said , when they kill you , they shall think they are doing god service . but what religion is that , which teaches men to do things which are so evidently against the light of nature , as murder ; especially when joyned with rebellion , and acted upon the persons of their own princes , and tending to the dissolution of humane society and destruction of mankind ? whatsoever religion this be , sure enough 't is not christian , nor such as ought to be allow'd among christians . and therefore if their conscience binds them not to renounce it , so does the magistrates conscience bind him to punish them for it . 't is the duty of him that bears the sword to punish all immorality , though never so lawful or necessary in the judgment of him that commits it . if a jew or a turk come to live in this kingdom , and marry many wives , which he may safely do by his law , 't is just by our law to hang him for it . much more if one be guilty of such immorality as tends immediately to the subversion of the kingdom , it is both just and necessary to send him away , or not let him live in it but at his peril . and if he complain that this is persecution for conscience , ( which by the way cannot but sound very odly from one of that sect , that burn men only for conscience ) his complaint in this case would be very unreasonable : and we ought to be no more moved with it , than we should be , if he complain'd that we would not stand still , and have our throats cut , in compliance with his conscience . there is nothing that can secure state or people against this religious distemper of the fiery papalins , and that can also preserve the civil rights and proprieties of good subjects of that communion , but only such a discrimination between them as may distinguish the loyal from the disloyal , the turbulent from the peaceable , in such manner that they both may have what they deserve . this is in effect to render to every one his due , according to law and reason : which is the very definition of justice and equity . for the administration whereof god has ordain'd the civil power , and put the sword into the magistrates hand , to employ it , ( as the apostle says ) to the praise of them that do well , and for the terror of evil doers . by what has been said on this last head , it sufficiently appears , that such a discrimination is also for the interest of the church and state of england . for that interest is preserv'd by justice and equity ; which will entitle it to that blessing from god which he hath promis'd in his word , and which are naturally apt to be instrumental to the divine providence in producing that good which he has promised . for a just distribution of rewards and punishments makes the government venerable in the eyes of the people , and secures it at home by their chearful obedience . it also acquires that reputation abroad which will make it either loved or feared by all the neighbour nations . our neighbours of the roman communion who are now possest by the clamours of those among us , that say they are persecuted for religion , and who can judge no otherwise when they see men severely handled that are criminal no other way , will be soon disabused by such a discrimination . and it will right us to those protestants abroad , to whom the state has been ill represented by fome on the other hand , for not executing all the penal laws against popery . it will save england the trouble of making apologies either way , to vindicate the justice of its proceedings to other nations . for it is manifest , that no government can tolerate such as hold tenets inconsistent with its own safety ; nor on the contrary , deny the protection of the laws to men whose principle it is to obey the government , and to do all that in them lies to support it : to venture their lives in defence of the authority , not only of the legislators , but of those very laws which they make against them , till those laws are repeal'd by the same power by which they were made . it were easie to bring hither all those reasons with which i shewed before , that undistinguishing laws and execution of laws are against the interest of the church and state of england ; and to prove by the same reasons , that nothing of this kind can be more for it than such a discrimination as is here propounded . for if it be for the interest of england to support and strengthen the government , then it is not to weaken the friends of the government , nor to strengthen or preserve the enemies of it . i shew'd that such would be the effect of an undistinguishing way ; which is therefore desired by them of the popish faction , as being next to a toleration the most likely means to unite and to encrease their party among us . now taking those things for granted which are already proved , it follows that , upon the account of interest , this way of discrimination should be as desirable to us as 't is hateful and detestable to them . sure enough they apprehend it , and not without visible cause , to be the likeliest way both to stop the further growth of ▪ popery , and to lessen the number of papists among us . i may add ( which is visible in the nature of the thing ) that a discrimination between them that are of the same communion will be a sure way to divide them among themselves . which may be a means to do some of them the greatest spiritual good , or at least to keep us from taking that hurt which we have reason to fear from so numerous and powerful a combination against us . for the way of distinction between papists and other roman catholicks must be by some test or mark of distinction . and that either by the passing of some new law for it , especially when there is a new mark of distinction , or by the strict execution of those laws that are in force for the taking of any test that is already made . in either of these cases , the papalins ( who are men of intelligence ) will take an early alarm , and try their friends here in england , if they can to prevent the passing of any such law , or the execution of any that is past . if their friends fail them here , their next resort is to rome , where they have an old friend that never fails them . the pope , if he has not forgotten the old trick , sends out his censures against all that shall submit to those laws , and take the test which is prescribed in them . if it be no more than the oath of allegiance , that is forbidden already by divers popes , and condemned by them as having many things in it which are contrary to the catholic faith. and the reason of this severity is , as well to guard their own temporal power , as to keep their creatures and friends from discovery . if any here , and especially if any priests of that communion , are so bold , notwithstanding all this to take the test ; then upon the next information , or soon after , the pope sends to tell nofes . and if he finds they are but few that transgress ( which will scarce be in our case ) he delays not to cite them to rome , and if they come thither , woe be to them ; if not , he curses them afresh , and particularly . but if they are many , he considers their strength , and being curse-proof , he forbears them for the present , only leaving them under his general censures . otherwise , if they are a weak and obnoxious multitude , he proceeds to further censures against them . and if some few have been more forward than the rest in doing that which the law requires , and specially if any dares justifie what they have done , he denounces them excommunicate by name , and therein both sacrifices them to his own angry deity , and gives his discovered creatures some kind of revenge on those poor men , to ease their hearts , till he and they can find how to be reveng'd on the state , for which they are to wait their opportunity . when any of these things happens , as it has done in like cases , and as it will do in these above-mentioned , if popes are constant to themselves : ( for there is nothing here said but what i could prove both by rule and example ) we have reason to hope that some of those censur'd men , who are able to right themselves , or rather their religion , will do it , by declaring against the horrible injury that is done both to it and them . and specially their priests , who have hitherto alledg'd , that the reason they have not done it all this while , has been their continual fear of a proclamation to send them beyond sea , where they are sure to be call'd to a severe account for whatsoever they have said or done against the interest of rome . when that fear is over , as it will be upon their giving security to the state , it may justly be expected , that they will both speak and write their minds freely , as occasion shall be offered , for the instruction of their people , and for the vindication of themselves and their religion . if the general censures be objected , as it is certain they will , by those that procur'd them , they will be oblig'd to shew the injustice and the invalidity of those censures . if they are excommunicated by name for so doing , they will be further engag'd to consider the authority of him that lays about him so madly with the keys of the church . it was so in luther's case , the quarrel begun between him and the procurers of the pope's bulls . it proceeded from them to their patrons in the court of rome . and so at last it came up to the papal authority it self . who knows but that it may please god ( for vexatio dat intellectum ) that many among us being vext with declarations , that are certainly uncanonical , may be brought by that means to discover , that the power which sent them forth is antichristian ? the most difficult thing that is required toward the making this discovery , is only to lay aside those strong prejudices which men commonly receive from their education , and from converse with men and things of that age in which they live . he that laying aside these shall look impartially into the scriptures , and into the undoubted records of the primitive church , shall find no foundation for that prodigious fabrick of the papacy . for the first three hundred years after christ , they will find only two , namely victor and stephen , that took upon them to censure any which were not of their diocess . and though their censures ( for ought that appears ) were only declarations of non-communion , such as any bishop in those days might send forth against the bishop of rome , as well as he against other bishops ; yet we find that , even for that , they were blamed and condemned by other bishops . and that is all the effect that we read their censures had in any place out of rome it self . pope victor in his censure of the asian bishops , is thought not to have gone beyond threatning , to break communion with them , and endeavouring to persuade other bishops to do the same . and yet for this he was smartly handled by some of the brethren : and it is charitably thought he was set right by the grave counsel of irenaeus , who writ to him in the name of the gallican church , and told him he did not learn this of any of his predecessors . of pope stephen it is certain that he went farther in his quarrel with the asian and african bishops . for he not only broke off communion , but all civil conversation with them ; and commanded his people not to let any of them come within their doors . but this was only at rome . for it does not appear that he pretended any authority elsewhere . and how he was scorn'd abroad for his pride and folly in this , the reader may see in those two excellent epistles . the later of which was left out of the roman edition of st. cyprian : and pamelius honestly declares he would have stifled it , if others had not publish'd it before him . lest any one should take offence at my not giving the usual garnish of the popes of that age to those two whom i mentioned , ( for i dare not call them saints and martyrs , though the roman church does , both elsewhere , and in her offices on their days ) i ought to let him know how that church is abused by them that have gained no small advantage to themselves by such fictions . that the old roman church in the time of constantius knew nothing of either of their martyrdoms , it appears by her catalogue of popes , publisht first by cuspinian , and since by bucherius the jesuite . nay she knew the contrary of one of them . for in the roman calendar of that age , publisht by the same iesuite , victor is not mentioned at all , and stephen is among the popes that were no martyrs . if this proof were not enough , or if this place were proper for it , i should shew from good authors , that though these popes lived under emperors that were afterwards persecutors ; yet they died before the beginning of their persecutions . i do not say but they may be saints ; but if they are , 't is more than we have any ground to believe . for neither the church-history , nor any writer within a hundred years of their time , has any more of their sanctity than of their sufferings . of stephen there is great cause to doubt the contrary from what we read of him in st. cyprian's * epistle , and more from that of firmilian , † which is thought to have been translated by st. cyprian , and which was written * about the time of stephens death , rather after than before it . it is to be hoped that many roman catholics among us have truly that reverence which all of them profess to true primitive christian antiquity , and to the judgment of saints and martyrs in all ages . we all agree that irenaeus and cyprian had a just right to those titles . and firmilian was a chief pillar of the church in his age. he was thought worthy to preside in several eastern councils : namely , in that against the novatians , before stephen was pope : and those against samosatenus , after stephen was dead . and after his own death , the eastern * church of that age called him firmilian of blessed memory . why this man is not in the calendar of saints , they best know who can tell us why victor and stephen are there . no doubt the saint-makers do all things with great consideration . but can any one imagin that those excellent men did ever believe themselves to be under the roman bishop ? that they ow'd any obedience to him whom they school'd so , or any reverence to his censures which they slighted in that manner ? could any assurance of their cause have justified that contempt of authority , if they had known any in him ? but it appears they knew it not ; nor did others in that age. those that were against them in the cause , blamed them for that , and nothing else ; and yet held communion with them , for all pope stephen and his censures . so far it appears those great men had the judgment of the church on their side . they knew of no authority over the universal church that the pope had more than any other bishop by any right , whether divine or humane . what the judgment of the church was in the next centuries , let them consider that shall read those canons * in the margent , and remember they are such as past in the first four general councils , and in the african council of 217 bishops , ( of whom st. austin was one ) assembled at carthage . to which i add , the african church to pope coelestine i. as containing a full declaration of their mind in that canon . i know there are objections against one or two of these canons . but all the dust that has been rais'd will not hinder any reasonable man from seeing that which , i think , is sufficient for our purpose : namely , that all the fathers that sate in those councils , or at least the major part of them , were of the same judgment with those above-mentioned in this point of the authority of the bishop of rome . they all allow'd him precedency as being bishop of the imperial city . they had commonly a great deference to his judgment in debates between themselves . and sometimes the christian emperors made him honorary judge , whether alone or with others , in such controversies . indeed by the canons of sardica , those few † western bishops that continued there , after the easterlings had left them , were pleased meerly of their charity to give him a new power , to order the reviewing of any provincial judgment upon complaint of any bishop that was aggrieved in it . and pope leo not being satisfied with this , got the emperor valentinian iii. to ordain * that the bishop of rome should give law throughout his part of the empire ( which then contained little more than italy , and part of france , and part of spain , and the illyrian diocess . ) yet all that the bishop of rome had by these concessions and grants did not amount to an authority over the universal church . i add , nor over the british church in * particular . and so far was this from arguing that he had by divine right any jurisdiction out of his own diocess , that his seeking or accepting what was given him by these concessions or grants , is a convincing argument to the contrary . but for the churches judgment , nothing can be more plain , than that all those bishops who gave their votes to those canons which i cited before out of the first four general councils , and that of africk , together with the epistle annext , had no question or thought of any authority that he had by divine right out of his own proper diocess , or by humane right out of the roman patriarchy , or any power of jurisdiction that he had elsewhere from the roman emperors , or from the primitive fathers . whatsoever power he has gotten since the decay of the roman empire and of the christian religion , ( from whence i have already * dated the beginning of popery ) as it is plain he has gotten in many countries , which were not anciently within his jurisdiction upon any account , it must be either by force or fraud , abusing either the weakness or ignorance of the people , or else by the concession or connivence of princes and states . blessed be god , there are some christian nations in the world which have stood so far out of his reach , that he has not been able to hook them in by any of these ways . and as he has no colourable pretence to a power over those countries where it is certain he never had any , as ethiopia , russia , &c. ( which they that are pleased to call therefore schismatical , must give me leave to admire as well their folly as their uncharitableness : and yet they that do not call them so , make the pope no head of the universal church : ) so in those countries where he has gotten power , it is not necessary that he should always hold it , till we see who is antichrist , whether he , or one of the tribe of dan , who ( they say ) shall come to take it from him . they over whom he gain'd a power by force or fraud , are kept under it still the same way ; which creates no right by any law whatsoever . and therefore when god makes them strong enough , and wise enough , they will deliver themselves from him . they that gave him a power over them when they saw cause , may have as good or better cause to recal it . and they have just cause to do this , when they see him desert that title by their gift , and claim his power by immediate divine right , or when he employs his power not to edification but destruction : and specially when doing all this he will force their obedience by such means , as come not from the wisdom which is from above , but from that which the apostle calls earthly , sensual , devillish . whosoever among our roman catholicks will be pleased to consider these things with that attention and impartiality that is due to all things of religion , i cannot but think he will see that the christian religion doth no way oblige him to own the popes authority in this kingdom . he will see that iure divino the pope could have no authority over this particular church , which he had not over the church universal . and it doth not appear by any records of the primitive times , that the pope ever had any such authority over the universal church , or that by the diffusive church he was believed or acknowledged to have it . but on the contrary it appears , by instances which i have given of those times , that he was denied to have such an authority , and that as well by the bishops assembled in their councils , as by the best and wisest men of those times in their writings : nay he was contradicted and resisted as oft as he endeavoured to impose any thing against the mind of particular churches . he will see that whatsoever humane right the pope had acquired over the people of this kingdom , was no more of one kind , than we are all originally of one nation ; and that the power which he was suffered to exercise over us , was very much greater at one time than another . in the worst and darkest times it was highest , for it grew up on the bad titles or other weakness of princes ; and yet then he could not hold it peaceably , nor long enough to make a prescription . but at all other times it was much less than he claim'd ; which sheweth plainly it was no more but what the state pleased to give him : and they owned that the pope had no right over them by any concessions of their own , more than what he had over the rest of the western churches . particularly , in those times next before the reformation , that right which was generally acknowledged to be in him , was not a supreme right , but subordinate to a general council . this appears to have been the sense of the western church . for it was declared in plain terms by four councils , which were acknowledged for general in that age , and were abetted as such by the generality of the western church . they not only declared this doctrine in their canons , but they reduced it to practice . for those councils deposed divers popes , and made new ones in their stead . which acts of theirs the papalins of this age are obliged to defend , as ill as they like the canons ; for without them they cannot make up the succescession of their present popes . but admitting those acts to have been just and good , how can they reject those canons from which they had their virtue and efficacy ? if they say the pope did not approve them , it is partly true . out of doubt those popes did not like them that lost by them . nor perhaps those that came in by those canons might not like them so well at another time . but how then could they take upon them to be popes ? their accepting a title from those councils , and the peoples owning them in it , was enough to shew that those canons were then in force ; and they were never repealed by any council since ; nor hath there been any council to do it , that can be reasonably thought so fit , as those four were , to declare the sense of the western diffusive church . therefore taking it for proved , that a general council is superiour to the pope , it must necessarily follow that there lies an appeal from the pope to such a council . and that his hands are tied up by such an appeal ; so that he cannot proceed at least to censure the appellant ; for this were not only a private injury to the person , but an invasion of the rights of the supreme court of judicature among christians . therefore if the pope should do so uncanonical a thing , he may be canonically disobeyed and resisted . yea , he ought to be so ( for it were a betraying the churches right to do otherwise ) till there is such a court or council to which the appeal was made . and such a council there would be at least once in ten years , if the pope did not hinder it . for having taken upon-himself the power of calling and presiding in councils , it is his pleasure to have none . and no doubt he hath reason for it , though there is law to the contrary , as good law for a council every ten * years as can be made by any authority in the western church . such appeals from the pope to a general council have been made by divers persons and societies in the roman communion ; as namely , by auxilius in the name of the clergy of all italy ; by michael of caesena in the name of the whole franciscan order ; by seven cardinals , who were at that time the major part of their colledge ; by divers emperours of germany , against divers popes , some of whom they deposed , and made other popes in their councils ; by divers kings of france , some of whom have forbid all communication with rome till they had right done them in their controversies . that some of these had cause enough for what they did , and that they had just authority to do it , will be granted by most of them of the roman church . but they will not grant the like of our king henry viii . whom they make author of the protestant schism , as they call it . and yet setting aside popular opinions and prejudices , i do not see what there was really in his case which might not be cleared from schism by those rules and examples . i speak only of his casting off the popes authority , as being that which no doubt was a means to bring on the reformation . as for those other things with which he is charged , they are extrinsick to our cause , and we are no way accountable for them . namely , for his dissolving of monasteries , it was a one whom wolsey had bred to it that taught him the way , and b they whom he employed would have burnt us if we had lived in those days . for his being head of the church , whosoever is offended at it , let him blame the c six-article men who brought up that title , and who both preached and writ for it , and not the q. elizabeth protestants d who cast it forth . much more for his personal excesses , whatsoever they were , if they concern any religion , it must be theirs and not ours . for as to his conscience , e they tell us , he always continued a roman catholic . these things being set apart , or charged where they ought to be , there will remain on our account only this to be considered , whether that prince were guilty of schism in casting the popes authority out of this kingdom ? or whether he did no more in that matter than he might lawfully do , according to the principles of his own ▪ that is , the roman , communion ? if he had right to appeal from the pope to a council , and was hindred by him from prosecuting that right , and was thereby forced to disobey and oppose him ; in this case it has been shewn that disobedience and resistance was lawful . whether that were his case , will appear by searching into matter of fact. and to be rightly informed of this , one must not take all for true that sanders says ; though having the luck to be contemned at the first by them that should have confuted him , he has carried the world before him ever since , being not only transcribed by the writers of his side , but also followed by many others that seem not to know whence they have their stories . we that live in a more inquisitive age have seen many things of which he is , the author , acknowledged by his a friends to be very improbable , and some things proved by b others to have been altogether impossible . yet in those things which he says without evident partiality , protestants are not unwilling he should be heard ; and roman catholics may be content to hear others with him , who , though protestants , yet , are not liable to the like imputation . in the caufe of that king's appeal , many things are to be considered elsewhere , which are not proper for this occasion . it suffices to know that in his minority he was c betrothed to katharine of spain his brothers widow . that the contract was made by his father , for reasons of state , against the judgment and advice of d archbishop warham ; who then told him that he thought it neither honourable , nor well-pleasing to god. that the e people at that time murmured against it , and f soon after the prince himself , as warham advised , made a formal protestation that he would never marry her . and yet , after his fathers death , he was perswaded to it , and did g marry her with the popes dispensation . when he had lived with her near seventeen years , and , as h sanders says , was weary of her , ( whether he was or no is not material , ) the popes legate cardinal wolsey * pretended to have found a nullity in the marriage ; and , in care for the king's salvation , ( as he said ) acquainted bishop longland , the kings confessor , with it . they both declared this to the king ; whose ancient doubt being now revived , he spent i almost a whole year in study and consultation concerning it . i enter not into the merit of the cause , being indifferent at this time whether the marriage was lawful or no. for it appears ( which is enough ) that he had reason to doubt , and that he took the best way for satisfaction , according to their principles . when * he had satisfied his own judgment , ( as i himself says , though † sanders say otherwise . ) and had the judgments , not only of those men before-mentioned , but of all the k clergy of england , save two , that his marriage was null ; and he had l reason to believe that most learned men abroad were of the same opinion ; there wanted only this more to have the popes declaration of the nullity . this at present could not be had , for he was the emperour's prisoner . but as soon as he was at liberty , being desired by the king , who had m obliged him above all men , and whom as yet he had occasion to use , it seemed at first that there would be no difficulty that way . for the pope granted all his requests , gave the king what n commissioners he had named , impower'd them to hear the matter in england , gave them o bulls to shew the king ; and to assure him he was in earnest , because things could not be done presently in form of law , he gave him secret p advice to marry while the cause was depending . the king having been two years without a wife , and not only holding himself free in his conscience , but expecting to be shortly declared so , and having now some kind of leave to chuse another ; cast his eye on anne q bolen , one whose person and birth might have r deserved the best of his subjects ; and who being then a stranger in s england , could not have that part which * sanders gives her in displacing queen katharine ; nor could have preserved her any otherwise , than by submitting to the king's lust , the refusal t whereof made her worthy of a nobler application . but this lady had been brought up in france among protestants , and was suspected to have some inclination u that way ; which suspicion was enough , not only to blacken her , but to dash the king's x suit , much the sooner if not only for her sake . it moved but slowly before , for the pope , being y engaged by the emperour , had sent instructions z after his legates , requiring them to use all possible delays , either to conceal a his bulls , or to burn them , and leave him free to do as he should see occasion . thus far he seems to have gone , before he heard what choice the king had made . but when that was discovered , ( and whether for that cause , or because he had made a new b alliance with the emperour , which tended to make the popes c nephew duke of florence , and the queen being the emperour's aunt ought in reason to have some benefit of it ) whatsoever moved him to it , the pope after this would trust her cause no longer in england , but having voided d that commission to his legates , called it home to his own determination . the king not knowing what to do next , and taking time to consider in his progress , had e cranmer brought to him by some that chanced to hear him say what they thought was material in the case . he was a f stranger to all that had passed hitherto ( which i mention , because some would make him a chief man in it . ) but from what he had heard , and especially from their discourse , he judged that the king had taken a wrong way ; in courting the pope to retract his predecessour's dispensation : whereas in truth , as most learned men thought , the matter it self was indispensable . and because it was not reasonable to expect that the pope would judge it so , ( for that had been to cut off a main limb of the papacy ) he therefore wish'd that instead of dancing attendance at rome , the king would send to the universities ( as being most able and unconcerned ) and get them to declare their judgments in the case . hereupon the king sent g learned men with his case , and got the judgments of the universities upon it . to send to those in the emperours dominions had been to no purpose . but he had ours in england , and those in france of his side ; and the two h chief in italy , though not only the emperour i opposed , but the pope , k who had bologna in his territory . and whereas it is said the king bought them , which his agents l deny ; they say that the emperour bought m hands on the contrary ; and that he offered largely to get those who had given their judgments for the king to retract it , but they would not take his money , though they might much more safely than the other . the king being thus strengthened in his cause , had reason to be the less in fear of the pope , and yet it appears he was not the more willing to break with him . for , after this , he made fresh a application to him by his orators and letters ; which were seconded with a petition under the hands and seals of both the b archbishops and others , the chief men of the three states of this kingdom . they represented their own and others judgments of the case , they passionately besought him to do the king and them right in it , they declared that if he did not , they should think he had left them to themselves . all this came out of time , for the pope was not then to be perswaded to break his alliance while he was gathering c the fruits of it . this the king understood by his d answer . and therefore knowing what he was to expect from abroad , he was the more careful to secure himself at home . where to satisfie the minds of the people , he declared what had passed to all his subjects in e parliament ; he shewed them the judgments of the universities , and the books of above one hundred doctors against the lawfulness of his marriage . he also caused the same to be shewn f to queen katharine by some lords of his council ; who would have perswaded her to withdraw her appeal that she had made to the pope , and to refer her cause to the judgment of others . she refused it , and thereupon g was removed from the court , and had her choice given her of the kings houses in the country . the queen prosecuting her appeal , the pope by letters exhorted the king to receive her . which he refused , as being unlawful for him to do ; and offered the h pope to send doctors to dispute it before him . he also got i the king of france , to mediate for him , who did it , as being assured of the justice of his cause . but all this did not hinder the pope from k committing it to the dean of the rota , who cited the king to appear before him . this being done k once , and l again , the king entred his m protest against all proceedings in that court. and the same n day he privately married anne bolen ; in which , if he was too hasty , it was because he had not been quite seven years to consider . not long after this , he had o the nullity of his former marriage judg'd and declared in his own kingdom . which being done , he owned her publickly as his queen , and gave her the p solemnity of a coronation . this was no sooner heard of at rome , but the pope , ( who as long as the king was plaintiff , had used q all possible delay and dissimulation ; now the scales being turned , ) without delay ▪ r declared this marriage a nullity ; and gave sentence of excommunication against the king , unless he put away anne , and restored katharine , before the end of september next . the mean while the pope made sure of the french king by a treaty then afoot , which produced an interview between them at marseilles , and a marriage between their two nearest relations . our king , in hope this new allyance would have given good effect to the french king's mediation in his behalf , sent his embassadours thither . they waited there for a while , but found nothing but delays . and the pope was now returning to rome , where he resolved to proceed in the cause . therefore at an s audience before him , they declared the king's appeal from the pope to the next lawful general council . which appeal the pope t rejected , as being unlawful , and against the constitution of one of his predecessours . he also declared that there should be a general council ; but that the calling of it belonged not to the king , but to himself . and soon after , the term that he had set for the restoring of queen katharine being now expired , he caused his sentence against the king to be openly set up at dunkirk , which was then in the emperours dominions . this was only a declarative sentence , in the case of attentates , as they term it ; but this being passed , there was no doubt but soon after he would proceed to a definitive sentence in the cause . the king was now concerned to look about him , and to provide for the worst that could happen . therefore first , with the advice of his u council , he acquainted his subjects with his appeal , which he caused to be set up on every church door throughout his kingdom ; and that his people might understand the validity of it , he commanded that they should be taught , that a general council is above the pope , and that by gods law the pope has no more to do in england than any other forein bishop . next he sent to engage as many forein princes as he could into a stricter allyance with him . and yet lastly , to shew that he sought not these ways , but was driven to them ; he x desired the bishop of paris , who was then embassadour in england , to get his prince to deal effectually with the pope ; and to promise in his name , that if the pope would forbear to pass any definitive sentence , till the cause might be heard before indifferent judges , he would also forbear what he had otherwise purposed to do , that is , to withdraw his obedience from the see of rome . the bishop gladly took the office of mediation upon himself ; and though it was now † the dead of winter , yet he went post to rome to discharge it . there in consistory he delivered his message to the pope ; and so far prevailed , that , at his earnest request , there was a present stop of proceedings , on condition , that the king should send a ratification of his promise precisely by such a day . in prefixing the day they seemed not to have considered the time of the year . for though the messenger , whom the bishop sent into england , found a present dispatch there ; yet , being hindered y by weather , he did not return within his day . the pope , as if he had watcht for that advantage , resolved immediately to proceed to a definitive sentence . there being z a consistory called for that purpose , the bishop once more came in , and pressed for a longer time . he begg'd no more but six days , which as he said a might be granted to a king that had waited on them with patience for six years . it was put to the vote ; where , through the eagerness of the imperial , cardinals , not only that small request was denied ; but such b precipitation was used , that as much was done at once in that consistory , as would have askt no less than thrice according to their usual forms . such hast they were in , to cut off , and to destroy him whom three popes c successively had entitled their defender and deliverer . when they had done their will ; within less than fix days , that is , the second day after this rash and hasty sentence , the post d returned from the king with a ratification of all that had been promised in his name . and he brought this further offer from the king , that he would submit to the judgment of that court , on condition that the imperial cardinals , who had made themselves parties against him , should be none of his judges . there was an authority sent , for proctors to appear for him on that condition . at which great submission of the king , compared with their precipitation , the wiser cardinals e were astonished , and petitioned the pope for an arrest of judgment . which could not well be denied him in those circumstances . and yet it was as if it had not been granted ; for they that got the sentence passed by majority of votes , had the same will and power to get it confirmed . and f confirmed it was , with this advantage ; that the execution of the sentence was committed to the emperour ; who would be sure to see it done thoroughly , as well to enrich himself with the spoyls , as to take his revenge in the ruine of a prince that had provoked him no way more , than in his zeal for the deliverance of this pope out of his hands . in this series of things , i cannot but observe the hand of god ; and adore that unsearchable wisdom by which he made way to bring in the reformation of this church . there was no king in that age so zealous for popery , as he had been , that came now to throw it out of his kingdom . whosoever considers him from first to last in this business , cannot but see he had no intention to do this . he did all things to avoid it , that could be done by one who was perswaded of the justice of his cause . and those princes and prelates who were perswaded as he was , did their parts to hinder things from coming to this extremity . none desired it but the spanish and imperial faction , unless perhaps the pope himself could desire to lessen the papacy , by cutting off a whole kingdom from the church , but he g seemed to mind nothing but the raising of his family , and in order to that , let the imperialists do what they would with him . perhaps he might think , when his own turns were served , to give the king satisfaction afterwards ; as it may seem by what h one says , that when the sentence was past , he suspended the execution of it till the end of september next . but he died i before that time , and so his sentence continued in force . the next pope that came after him did not approve what he had done ; for to use his own k words he had urged him to right the king in his divorce , and would have perswaded the emperour to have born it patiently . but as then he could not prevail on that side , so now he came too late to be heard on the other . for on the l day of his coronation at rome the parliament met here in england that made the act of supremacy . the edge of which law falling severely on the friends of the papacy , even while m the pope was offering at a reconciliation ; he was thereby provoked to n curse the king afresh , by a bull which yet was not published till some years after . when the king having presumed to un-saint thomas becket , the pope o thereupon pronounced him no king , which made the breach quite unreconcileable . i have given so large account of this matter , because it is brought into common discourse ; and as it is told , serves to blacken many other , beside the king who was only or chiefly concerned in it . otherwise it would serve for our present occasion , to show , ( which i think i have sufficiently done , ) that he had cause to appeal from the pope to a council , that he did appeal in due form of law , and prosecuted it with great moderation ; which was enough to acquit him from schism , as far as we are concerned in it : that on the other hand the pope rejected his appeal , to the affront of that supreme tribunal among christians ; and not only proceeded against the appellant , in which case the appellant might , and ought , to resist him ; but he also took a course that the case should never be otherwise . for whereas the pope assumes to himself the only power to call councils , and whereas there had been none in ten years , to say no more , and therefore a council ought to have been then according to the canons ; yet the pope would have no council , then , nor afterwards , till he had tried all other ways to destroy both the king and his kingdom . when at last , after many years talk and deliberation , a council was called , that at trent , which pretends to be a general council ; it was such as the king could not think himself bound to acknowledge , nay he was bound to oppose it , as well for his own preservation , as to maintain the common right of christians , according to the principles then received in the western church . by his appeal , he was not bound to submit to any other than he expressed in it , that is , a lawful general council . such the councils of constance and basil were then generally acknowledged to have been . and it was the cry of the western church , as well in this as the foregoing ages , for such a council , as those were , to reform abuses as well in the head as in the members . but the head was as it would be ; and therefore , being to chuse , would take no physick to cure it self . this was visible in the popes extreme averseness to a council ; till he saw that , without it , the nations were likely to reform themselves . then he began to think it needful to call one himself . but at first he named no time or place . then he named first one town , and then another . when men began to think he was in earnest , ( for they had been often fooled with reports , ) the king declared he would not own a council called by the popes single authority . it was the judgment of the church of england that he ought not to own it ; for so their synod declared , that neither the bishop of rome , nor any one prince whatsoever , may by his own authority call a general council without the express consent of the residue of christian princes . when afterwards it appeared that the pope was intent upon it , the king , on the same grounds , made his publick protestation ; shewing that the indiction of a council belonged not to the bishop of rome , but to the emperour and princes which should send or come thither . the like protestation he sent abroad into all forein countries . and he afterward made it good , by not sending one bishop to the council when it met ▪ though one of his subjects was there , whom the pope was pleased to make a bishop with a title in this kingdom . having thus no obligation to own this for a general council ; he was therefore obliged to oppose it , as being the mockery and abuse of that supreme judicatory , joyned with the defrauding all christians of their right in it , and particularly himself of the benefit of his appeal to it . which things he ought to have considered , had it been held in the most innocent manner . but much more being held as it was , with most apparent design , to establish those abuses which all christendome cried out to have reformed , to deprive the diffusive church of that which was the only remedy for them , to bring it to pass that there should be no more general council , as now we see there is like to be none while the world stands ; particularly as to himself he had cause to oppose the trent council , as far as he was able . for it was originally * designed to please the emperour ; and thereby to oblige him to head the party of christian princes , whom the pope was then uniting to make war against england . and as that council was framed in all its circumstances , the king could consider it no otherwise than he did the pope himself , who was his open and implacable enemy : for as the pope called it by his single authority , so he always presided in it by his legates . he had it filled with his creatures , italians , and others , who were sure to carry every thing by their number . and yet for fear they should forget themselves , every thing must be examined at rome , before it could pass through their hands . and being past , yet it was of no force till it had the pope's approbation . by which means he made himself so far lord of this council , that though perhaps he could not pass whatsoever he pleased , yet nothing could pass that should displease him in it . and least , by taking all this care , the pope might seem to intend no more but only to secure himself , without doing the king a farther injury ; there was one thing which made it appear that he had as great a mind to plague the king as to provide for his own preservation . for among all his number of cardinals he could find none fitter to preside in the council , and there to judge the king's cause , ( if he were so unwise as to send it thither ) than one that was the king's enemy more than the pope himself , if it were possible . that was a cardinal pool , the king 's unnatural subject and kinsman ; who being b brought up by him , and sent to travel for his farther improvement , and , while he was abroad , being c intrusted by him in his cause , forsook it , and joined himself to the imperial party . in which , though he might pretend that he followed his conscience , yet nothing could excuse him for practising against his king and his country . he was the man employed to d write against the king's divorce ; and out-did other writers in this , that he e stirred up the emperour to revenge his aunts injury , for fear he should forget it ; and not only so , but f went about from prince to prince , and from country to country to stir them up to war against this realm . for which so unworthy and so officious a disloyalty , he was g declared traitor at home by act of parliament , and h had a price set upon his head ; not to mention other instances of the king 's extreme displeasure against him . when this had so far endeared him to the pope , that being not content to have made him one of his cardinals , he must also have this man to preside in his council ; the english had so much the more cause to be jealous , and to stand upon their guard , as well against his council as himself . a general council they could not hold it to be , for their church was not allowed to have any right in it . though she had not lost her right , any otherwise , than as being cut off by the pope's uncanonical censures ; against which she was relievable on her appeal thither , if that had truly been a general council . and the bishops whom she should send to represent her in such a council had as much to do there ( precedence only excepted ) as the pope himself had , according to the ancient canons . but now , as matters were ordered at trent , if she had sent any thither and if they had been admittable otherwise , yet they must not sit there without owning the pope in his legate . they must not only be joyned into one body with him , but they must acknowledge him for their representative head , who yet to them was no other than a man dead in law. for they knew him to be condemned for a traytor , by that authority to which they were subjects , as well as trent as in england . and though the popes placing him there in that character was the highest affront that could be done to the justice of their nation ; yet they must submit , nay , contribute to that affront , by owning him in that character , or else they must have no place in that council . this contumelious condition being implicitly imposed on our bishops , was a virtual exclusion of them from their right of sitting there . and it was so contrived , that it lookt as ill upon the state as on the church . the king was not only concerned for both these , but also for himself on another account ; having his cause to be heard there , if it had been a general council . it was an injury to him all this while , that he had none , so long after his appeal to it . but now to make him amends , he had a council pack'd by his adversary ; and if that were not enough , he had this traiterous subject in the head of it . which last thing went beyond all former trials of his patience , and perhaps had been enough to have angered the meekest of princes . if it be an ill thing to have ones judge chosen by his enemy , it is worse to have his enemy be his judge . he had both in this council , as the pope had ordered it for him . therefore as he could not be canonically obliged to stand by it , so he did but use his own right , as before in protesting , so now in declaring against it . he did it on all occasions , and continued so doing till his death . his son edward vi , who reigned next , kept the pope at his distance ; and had many things reformed in the church , of which i shall not speak particularly , because , all that he did of this kind was soon after undone by his successour queen mary . she , for reasons that i mentioned i before , restored the pope's authority in this kingdom . and , though his council of trent was all her time in adjournment , so that she could not send her bishops thither , yet she had it acknowledged by them in a k synod , where cardinal pool ( being first restord in bloud ) had the honour to preside as his legate . but as to the schism between us and the roman church , both these princes were unconcerned in the original cause of it , which was ( as i have shewn ) the popes sentence concerning their fathers marriage . for edward vi. was born to him by another wife , whom he had married after katharines death . and queen mary , being his daughter by katharine , was not aggrieved by the sentence , but on the contrary held her self righted by it . the only person aggrieved was queen elizabeth , the daughter of henry viii . by anne bolen ; whose marriage the pope had l declared to be null , and pronounced any fruit that should come of it to be illegitimate . this queen being the only fruit of that marriage , the sentence was injurious to her , if to any . and whether she was wrong'd in it or no , it ought to have been tried before a lawful general council , to whose judgement her father had appealed , as has been m already shewn . and there being no such council held in his life time , the right of his appeal descended to her at his death . she was now the only party concerned in the cause , and her right could not be given from her by any other . she was as much concerned , as ever her father was , to be heard by the judge to whom he had appealed ; and to be righted against the pope , if it should appear that he had injured her ; and also against his council of trent , which abetted him in it . and she had as much reason as ever her father had , to disobey and to resist both the pope and his council , till they would suffer such a council to meet as was the only proper judge of her cause . thus far all that has been said of her father , except only in things of personal concernment , is as applicable to her . and more needs not be said , to shew that they were neither of them guilty of schism , in asserting their cause , as they did , against the adversaries of it . for therein they did no more than what they lawfully might , and ought to do , according to the principles of the western church . but there was something in her case , which was not in her fathers , and which would have cleared her of schism , though he had been guilty of it . for whereas , when he rejected the pope and his council , he was wholly of their mind in all the articles of faith then in being ; she did it , not till the council had sate , and till they had already made sundry new articles of faith. whereof the first were defined n some months before her father died . however he might like them , as they presume he did , who o tell us that he died in their faith ; yet it is certain that ( though at sometime she did not shew it , ) she did always dislike them , her enemies being judges . and as soon as she came into power , she declared , they were so far from being any part of her faith , that she took them for no other than false and novel opinions . if she mistook in so judging , which shall be considered in its place , then she was at least materially an heretic . and such he must prove her to have been that will make her a schismatick . for if she was in the right , and those doctrines were not of faith , then the schism occasioned by them must not lie at her door . it must be charged on the council who defined them , and on the pope who added them to the creed , who made the belief and profession of these doctrines , a condition without which there is no living in his communion . she did what she ought to do , in refusing to have it on those terms , in adhering to the faith once delivered to the saints , and in rejecting the authority which would have it defiled with those mixtures . what has been said may suffice to clear queen elizabeth from the imputation of schism , on any personal account , in not obeying the pope or his council . it appears that she was free from schism in that matter ; as well in foro ecclesiae , having the canonical right of an appeal against them ; as in foro conscientiae , because what she did , was to keep her faith pure from their undue impositions . whether she can be cleared as well on the account of her government in ecclesiastical matters , this we ought to consider as a thing that more immediately concerns us . for we date the reformation of our church from the beginning of her reign . and though we have a prescription since , of above a hundred years ; which is enough to secure us against the claims of the papacy , in the judgment of them that hold it to be only of humane right , as all men ought to do upon those grounds above mentioned ; yet , to them of the roman communion , it will perhaps be more satisfactory , if it appear , that beside the right that we have now from prescription , there was also an original right in our reformers to do what they did in the beginning of the reformation . the first thing they did , was to assert the queens supremacy ; from whence they proceeded to settle the church government ; and ended with the reformation of worship and doctrine . 1. first , of what she did in assuming the supremacy , more needs not be said than to make it be understood . and we cannot understand her meaning in it better than by her own declaration and practice . she p declared that she took no other power to her self , than what anciently belonged to the crown of england , that is , immediately under god to govern her people of all sorts , as well the clergy as the laity . and she exercised no other power or jurisdiction over the church than what was meerly external , as appears q by her injunctions and other acts. though if she had exercised any other power than what she claimed , it had been only an act of misgovernment in her , for which she was accountable to god ; and the church had not therefore been guilty of schism , since it r gave her no other power , nor owned her in the exercise of any other , than what is above-mentioned . and that power is so inherent in every supreme magistrate , and so necessary for the well-being of the people , that we cannot deny the right of it in them to whom we grant the supreme magistracy it self . wheresoever any prince or state have seemed to think so ill of themselves as if they were not so fit , as a foreiner was , to be trusted with this power over their own people ; or rather where they have been so obsequious to the pope as to take this flower out of their own crown and put it into the triple : it may be every where observed , that either they or their successors have found occasion , at some time or other , to call for it home again , or to use it as if they had notgiven it from themselves . we may see examples of this , in germany in ockham's days , in spain under the emperour charles v , and in venice at the time of the interdict . but especially in france ; where the gallican church is obliged to justifie this right of princes , unless she will grant that her most christian kings have been in schism , more than once , and especially , while they stood to the pragmatic sanction . but we need not go abroad for examples , having so many at home , and such as are very full to our purpose . he that will , may see them s elsewhere gathered to his hand . and i have t mentioned enough to shew that even in popish times our princes were not ignorant of their right , and that between whiles they were fain to assert it , in such terms as did import , though they did not name , a supremacy . but as their laws did not expresly mention the word , so neither did they always stand by their laws . when they had made them , the pope still found some device or other to make them ineffectual . till king henry viii . having thrown out the pope , for those reasons above mentioned ; did by u advice of his council and bishops , take both the power and the title on himself ; whether he took more than his due , let others judge . as i am not engaged to defend all that he assumed , so i need not , for so much as queen mary exercised of it . for it is agreed , ( and there was great x reason for it , ) that she was always y for the popes supremacy in her heart , ( though for fear of her life she z renounced it when time was . ) and yet she no sooner came to the crown , but she exercised the supremacy her self , in changing most a of the bishops , and reforming b what she held to be abuses in the church . afterward when she had surrendred it to the pope , yet she did not so wholly put it out of her self , but that , when he displeased her , she could c shut his legate out of her kingdom . so that to adjust the matter between the two sisters , in this point of supremacy , they seem to have differed only thus : one adjudged it to the pope , and yet took it from him when she pleased ; the other thought it belonged to the crown , and therefore kept it wholly to her self . 2. what queen elizabeth did in setling church matters , was founded on her right in the supremacy . by vertue whereof , she took upon her to reform abuses in the church , as her sister queen mary had done . and i believe that whosoever compares their proceedings , will find , that she took more leisure and advice than queen mary , in doing it . for before a parliament d sate , she had gone only thus e far , that she allowed her people some of the church offices in a language which they all understood . afterward by advice of her parliament f she restored king edwards laws , and repealed those which had been made by queen mary for ecclesiastical matters . and by those laws she abolished the popish mass , and restored the whole communion to the laity ; whereas her sister had done the contrary , g without law , by her mere right of supremacy . which right she having afterwards given away by act of parliament , ( though still she used it when she saw cause , ) queen elizabeth thought fit to have it restored by act of parliament ; ( or rather redeclared , for the act h was not operative but declarative . ) and whereas by this act it was required , that all bishops , and others that held any church-living in this kingdom , should take an oath of supremacy , as we call it , or else should be uncapable of holding any such church preferment : on refusal of this oath there were turned out thirteen bishops . i note the number , the rather , because there had been just so many of the protestant bishops turned out by queen mary . there appears to have been some difference between the turning out , of these by law , and of those without any law then in force . but there was more in the cause of their fuffering ; those being outed for matters purely religious , and these for a civil cause , for refusing an oath lawfully imposed . which oath did not truly concern their religion , even themselves being judges . for they had all , or most of them , i taken it before ; some of them had taken it many times over ; two or three of them had writ in defence of it , nay , were at the first composing of it . but there was a greater difference than either of these , if the bishops , then turned out by queen elizabeth , had been most of them canonically deprived under king edward vi , and were never since canonically restored , which may deserve a further consideration . the mean while it is certain that this act outed not k two hundred more of all the clergy in this kingdom . and their places being filled with such as had been banished in queen maries days , it is not hard to judge how all things else to be done in church matters might pass any obstruction , as they did , afterwards in full convocation . 3. as to doctrinal things , it was generally observed in those times , by the advantage of ecclesiastical learning , that in those many former ages which wanted it , many errors , and some very gross ones , had crept into the church . and those errors , having the papacy on their side , for l reasons which i have already shewn , had so far prevailed , that they were growing to be articles of faith. many of them were already defined so , and more were like to be by the council of trent . therefore now the church of england , being free from the yoke of the papacy , and having an absolute power to act for her self , thought fit to use the right of a national church , that is , to reform her self by declaring against those errors , and to rid christianity from them here in england , without taking upon her to prescribe to other churches . and withal she thought it needful to set such bounds to the reformation , that men might not , by their heats against popery , be transported so far as to run into contrary errors . for these causes that famous summary of christian doctrines , which we call the xxxix artielés , was drawn , up , and approved by m convocation . the compiling and publishing of these articles was properly the act of the church of england . and these articles being many of them opposed to those doctrines which the roman church holds to be of faith , and being either in terminis , or at least in the sense of them , the same which their trent council hath branded with heresie ; it is therefore evident that , upon the account of these doctrines , neither the queen nor church of england can be justly charged with schism , unless the doctrines themselves are first proved to be heretical , as they are judged by those decrees of the trent council . for the trial of these doctrines , they will not allow our church that resort which she would make immediately to the scriptures . and we cannot go along with the roman church whither she would have us ; that is , to the council of trent , or , which is all one to the judgment of their present church . therefore there is no possible way to end disputes , but by some known equal standard between us . and that can be no other than catholic tradition . which they of the roman side cannot well decline ; for it is that from which the council of trent has n pretended to receive all her doctrines . nor have we any cause to decline it ; for the primitive fathers , who were the original conveighers of this tradition , did profess to know no other faith than what was contained in the scriptures . why we cannot stand to the judgment of the council of trent for the trial of our doctrines , we have all the same reasons that they have in the french church , why they reject it in matters of discipline . that is , if they deny it to have the authority of a general council ; the english , though of their communion , may as well deny it to have infallibility . nay , much more this than the other . for we may give to whom we please an authority over us ; but we cannot give infallibility to any , but to them to whom god has promised it , that is , if to any council , to such a one as represents the whole diffusive church . and we have one reason more than the french have , and which signifies more than all theirs , to shew that , though they did , yet , we ought not to look upon this as such a council . for the french church was represented at trent , in some sort , though they were not at all satisfied with it ; but ours neither was represented , nor could be , ( as i have shewn , ) neither after nor before the reformation . and though ( as it is o said ) the french have since received the doctrinal decrees of that council ; that is , they have allowed them to be antecedently true , in those terms in which the council defined them , though not a whit the more true for having been defined in that council ; ours cannot pretend that here in england it ever had so much as that lowest degree of reception . before the reformation of which we now speak , that is , before the beginning of queen elizabeths reign , the council of trent had sate not much more than half its sessions . and though it was quoted with respect by the synod of p london in queen marys days , yet it does not appear that there was then any formal reception of the council . nor if there had been , could that have obliged aftercomers to receive whatsoever should pass afterward in that council ? thus much , i think , ought to be considered by them ( if there be any ) that hold themselves obliged by that synod . but much less would it have signified to our reformers , who did not hold themselves obliged by that synod . for beside that they differed in point of faith , they had other canonical objections against it : that it was composed of bishops who had been deprived ( as was said , ) in king edwards days , and had not been duly restored since , for ought that appears . and it was headed by the popes legate , in that quality , as representing him against whom they had an appeal yet in force . now to him that considers the case in these circumstances , it cannot seem reasonable , that king edwards bishops should have thought themselves obliged by the synodical act of them that sate there in their injury ; or that they , who adhered to their appeal from the pope , should be concluded by any thing that passed under his legate . since the reformation , it cannot be imagined that the council of trent should be received , here in england , by any other than by them of the roman communion . and whether they have received it , or no , they best know . but if they have , it must be their own voluntary act ; for no power whatsoever could oblige them to receive it . if any could , it must be , either the council it self , or the pope by his universal authority : but for the popes power , they understand themselves so well , that they know he cannot oblige them to the reception of a council . for he cannot bring them under what government he pleases ; i say , not without their own consent ; as they have judged , and shewed it by their practice . when he impowered an archpriest to govern them ; the seculars would not receive him . and when he would have placed a bishop over them , the regulars would not receive him . so the seculars and regulars , as it were with one consent , have given us their judgment in the case ; and that by no indeliberate act on either hand , for they contended about it a great part of the last age. and therefore , unless their principles are altered since , the same right which they exercised in not submitting to a government , they may exercise as well in not receiving a council , though the pope should presume to impose it . and that the council , of it self , has no power to oblige them , it appears in that judged case of the egyptian church . the bishops whereof would not subscribe to a decree of the q fourth general council , because they had then no archbishop to give them an authority for it . this was allowed to be a reasonable excuse , though the decree , which they were to have subscribed , was in a matter of faith. i suppose they of the roman communion , here in england , have had the same reason ever since the reformation . they have had no lawful primate , nor no declared bishops all this while . and during this imperfect state of their church , if there had been a general council , and any of their clergy had been there , they might have been excused from subscribing , though in matters of faith. what difference there is in the case , makes wholly on our side . for there is a wide difference indeed between subscribing and receiving . the first is only the declaring ones own personal assent to the decrees of any council ; the other is to give them the force of laws in the national church . and if ( according to that canon , ) the bishops , where they are in a council , are not bound to subscribe without their primate ; how much less can any national church be obliged to receive things for law without her bishops ; nay more , how can she lawfully receive them ? especially , such a church , as owns there is no jurisdiction without bishops . she cannot do it without a synod of bishops according to the ancient canons . and therefore the english church of roman catholics is so far from being bound to receive the trent council , that , in her present condition , she could not lawfully receive it . i say still , according to the ancient canons , which ought to be of some force with them of the roman communion . but let them do as they please . the case is plain , that the reformed church of england ought not to receive it , if she can prove her charge , that that council has innovated in the christian faith ; or rather unless that council can discharge her self of it , by proving that what we call her new faith , is not new , but received from catholick tradition . we think we are sure they cannot bring this tradition for those doctrines which are laid as foundations for all the rest in that council ; namely , their making unwritten tradition to be of divine authority , and therefore equal with the holy scriptures ; their bringing those which we call the apocryphal books , into the canon of scripture ; their making the vulgar latine translation authentick in all matters of faith and good life . for these , and all the rest of their doctrines of faith , as they are called in the roman church , which we call innovations and errors , we are not afraid to refer our selves to catholic tradition . if they of the roman side would submit to it as well , there would be no difference between us , in matters of faith , whatsoever there might be in opinion . and therefore they would have no cause in their own private judgment to conclude us for heretics ; much less would they find us condemned for such by any competent judicature . if they think otherwise than we do in this matter , the reason must be , because they do not mean what we do by catholic tradition . it is plain that too many of that church have a wrong notion of it ; taking that for catholic tradition , which is only presumed to be so by a party in these latter ages . for though they call themselves the catholic church , and perhaps really take themselves to be no other , yet they are but a handful to the body of christians ; especially considered in our notion of catholic , which , as we take it , extends to all the christians of all ages . we plainly profess to take the catholic tradition in that sense of vincentius lyrinensis , and before him of tertullian in his prescriptions ; who make this to be the standard of all doctrines of faith , quod semper , quod ubique , quod ab omnibus . first , that which has gone for christian faith in all ages from the beginning of christianity . secondly , which has been taken for such by the whole diffusive church , comprehending all those particular churches which have not been canonically condemned either of schism or heresie . and lastly , that which has not only been the faith of some persons , though contradicted by others , but that which has been the constant belief of the generality in all those christian churches . to bring our differences to this standard betwixt us , i conceive that , first , they of the roman communion will not find such evidence for their articles of faith , as they think of , in the primitive records . i say , such evidence as will make it appear that they were of faith , antecedently to the definitions of councils . they will find that those councils , which first defined them to be of faith , were not such against which we have no just exception , nor that their definitions have been generally received throughout the diffusive catholic church . for the primitive records , i suppose , they of the roman church , that have read them , will scarce pretend to shew how they convey all those articles to us , as of faith. and where they fail to shew this , of any article , they must excuse us if we cannot allow it to be a catholic tradition . much more , when we shew , from those records , that there are strong presumptions to the contrary . whereof , not to trouble my reader with more instances , i have given some a proof in that which bellarmine calls caput fidei , namely , in that doctrine of the popes supremacy over all christians . for the councils , by which their new articles have been defined , the most they can rationally pretend to by their definitions , is , to deliver the sense of the present diffusive church . which they are presumed to do , when they have power to represent it , or when their decrees are received in all parts of it , and not otherwise . but how few of their general councils can pretend to either of these conditions ? it appears , that the eldest of them could not , i mean b the second council of nice , which first imposed the worship of images . for , about thirty years before , there was c an eastern council held at constantinople , which condemned that very thing . and , not ten years after , there was a western council at francford , which condemned this nicene council for imposing it . neither of these councils can be said to have been less orthodox than that council was , in any point but that which they opposed . and their very opposing it shews , that , at those times , it was not the sense either of the eastern or of the western church . when that council obtained in the eastern church , yet still it was opposed by the western ; and however there also the practice crept in , yet that council has never been received in the western church , as hath been lately proved by a * most learned writer . nor has image-worship been defined by any other council , that could be said to represent both the eastern and western church . in all ages since , the councils which have defined any articles , have been but western councils at best , for , though some greek bishops were present at one or two of them , yet , what they consented to was never ratified by the greek church . and for these western councils , to give them their due , it was not so much their fault , if they lead us into error , as it is ours , if we follow them in it . for he that reads them , and knows the history of their times , will not chuse them for guides , if he has any care of that trust which god has given him of himself . he cannot but see , that , bating the three last of those councils , which have not that authority in the french church , nor with some other of that communion ; all the rest were held in times of such palpable ignorance , that when they went amiss they could not well see how to do otherwise . their bishops could not but be generally unqualified to judge of matters of faith. for they had a great want of good books , and of the languages in which they were written . i speak of those books that are now chiefly used in all questions of faith , as well by their as by our writers . and sure they that had them not to use , could not but be miserably to seek in all those parts of knowledge which are absolutely necessary for any one that should judge of those matters . namely , those without which they could not ordinarily know , neither the true sense of holy scripture , nor the judgments of councils and fathers , nor the practice of the primitive church . we find by the best of their writers in those times that they were so much to seek in those most needful things , that not a colledge in either of our universities can be said without scandal to know no more in them than one of those councils . if instead of those last we bate four other of their councils , which are disowned by the papalins , for reasons which have been already * given ; all the rest were in such bondage to the papacy , that they had not the power to do otherwise than they did . their bishops , by pope hildebrand's device , were all sworn to maintain the royalties of st. peter ; e whereof one was , that the popes faith could not fail . and being assured of that , as men should be of things which they swear , their wisest course , when matters of faith came before them , was to trust the pope's judgment , and pass every thing as he brought it to their hands . this way therefore they took , and it saved them the trouble of examination and debate , and such like conciliary proceedings . it may be worth the observing , that in seven general councils , which they reckon from the time of pope hildebrand downward , among the many doctrines which they are said to have defined , there is not one that appears to have cost them any more but the hearing . the pope had them brought and read before the council , as if that was enough to make them their acts as well as f his. and this was the constant course , till the papacy was weakened by a long and scandalous schism ; then those councils which made themselves superiour to the pope , thought fit to use their own judgment , such as it was ; and they proceeded conciliarly , as councils had done in former times . which way being more for the credit of their definitions , it was continued in those councils which restored the pope to his supremacy ; with this difference only , that whereas those seven councils above-mentioned passed all things in the lump which the pope or his ministers brought before them ; the councils since have passed them piecemeal ; with some shew of using their own judgment in every particular , though in truth with so entire a resignation to the pope , that nothing could ever pass against his interest , or his will , even when they seemed most to endeavour it . so that , in all these councils , whatsoever has passed in determining doctrines of faith , is in truth no more than a papal decree , though it bears the name , and perhaps has some shew of a councils definition . lastly , for the judgment of the diffusive church , we are not ignorant that many of the things thus imposed , ( of which we can find no mention in antiquity , and which we know were first started long after the beginnings of christianity ) yet have been received as well by greeks as by the latines in latter ages . but , not to say by what means they obtained it , we cannot forget what ages those were , in which these things came to gain such an authority among christians . they were such as learned men of the roman communion , who are acquainted with the writers of those times , ( i say as well with the greek as latine writers , ) do not at all reverence their judgments apart , whatsoever they think of them together in councils . and according to the rule prescribed by those fathers , it will not pass for the judgment of the catholic diffusive church , though both greeks and latines agree in it , and have done so for some ages together . there must be semper , as well as ubique , and ab omnibus . though the two last conditions may suffice to make us think any doctrine to be true , or at least the error in it not to be damnable ; yet to make us believe it is a doctrine of faith , there must be semper likewise , without which it is no catholic tradition . it is surely a great affront to the catholic church , and to the great author and finisher of her faith , that , as if that faith once delivered were insufficient , there must be new things added to it from time to time , by a succession of men that take upon them to be his vicars , without making out any colourable title to that office. and , though we find no such things in the ancient records of his church ; though we see these are framed to support the new authority of those vicars , and though we know how they abused the ignorance and tameness of many ages ; yet because in those ages these things were generally received , and have mellowed some time since in the faith of them that knew no better , they are pleased to use this as an argument , not only why others must be concluded and bound for ever to sit down by their judgment , who had little , and used none ; but why they must also receive all things else that are imposed in like manner , under pretence that this is now the judgment of the diffusive church . but the case is much worse , these new things being imposed on the church with a pretence of infallibility . which infallibility being a word of good sound , some that are no papalins , but hold with them in some doctrines which they cannot well prove otherwise , strike in with them at this , though the sound is all that they agree in . for whereas the papalins mean an infallibility of judgment , and place it in the virtual church ; these mean only an infallibility of tradition , and that they place in the diffusive church . they would persuade us that it is a demonstrable thing , that those things that are believed , as of faith , in this age , could never be otherwise . they may as well demonstrate , that a tale does not mend with often telling , or that no change can be made by insensible degrees . but the authors of this being censured at rome for it , we have no more to say to them ti●l they make it appear that they are of the roman church in spite of her censures . for our dispute is at present with them of the roman church ; who pretend that this infallibility is in theirs , that is the virtual church . they say that she has it by virtue of divine assistance ; which being either without or above means , it is all one as if they said she has a new revelation . and one would think that they intended no other who founded their definitions on miracles . now if they can prove that any such assistance was promised to the virtual church , and if they can prove that they are the church to which those promises were made ; or if they can prove their credentials to be the same that christ gave to his apostles ; then we must grant that we are out , in denying this infallibility . otherwise they must grant that their virtual church might be mistaken . and if she might , we have reason to think that she was so in these matters . and if it is but colourably said , that she was mistaken in matters of so very great moment , there is reason to think that those matters are fit for a review . to which the greeks may submit , and so may all other christians that differ among themselves ; but they of the roman church cannot , while they keep up their claim to infallibility . if we must ( as the roman court will have it ) be called heretics for not submitting to new revelation , we cannot help it . nor need we much trouble our selves . for we know we are no hereticks by any law divine or humane , except those which this new power has made to fence in its new doctrines . and we know they cannot , with any colour of reason from catholic tradition , think us heretics themselves , while we hold to the positive doctrines of our church . so that when they are pleased to give us this title , we can take their meaning to be only this : they declare us to be , as indeed we are , the enemies of that monarchy to which they would enthral the whole church of christ ; they do as good as tell us what we are to expect for this , if ever ( for our sins ) god should suffer us to fall into their hands ; they would have their people hate us the mean while , and avoid all communication with us , for fear they should come to know how we are wronged in this matter . this appears to be the sense and design of the interested men . and yet we doubt not there are many others among them , who either have no such interest , or who will not give themselves to be led by it . we have reason to believe this , partly from what we observe at this present , and much more from what we read of former times . of all nations that continue in the roman communion , the more any have flourished in learning and civility , the more free they have kept themselves from all that which is properly popery : while the more ignorant , and therefore more superstitious nations , are so fond of it , that , for want of this , they will scarce allow the other to be catholics . but for protestants , whom the other can endure to live among them , though perhaps in no desirable condition ; these will not allow them to live in their country , unless that may be called living , when men are buried alive in the inquisition . so it may be observed among persons of that communion . the most busie and imposing , the most fierce and untreatable bigots , are commonly they that scarce understand their own prayers . learned men either have not those heats , or else govern them better . unless they be such as are engaged to the papacy by preferment , or by the hopes of it , or by the vows of their orders ; or perhaps such as having forsaken our church , will not allow us to question either their wisdom or their honesty in it . we are not ordinarily to expect so much as common civility from such men . but they that have no particular quarrel against us , and are otherwise of a candid and ingenuous temper ; especially when they have learning with it , as not a few have , and would to god there were more in the roman church ; these men being not averse from inquiring into truth , nor from receiving it when it is brought before them , if they do not see how they can prove us heretics , and that their proof is as strong and clear as the charge is heavy , they will not think it a sufficient reason to call us so because others have done it . nor will they think fit to debar us the common right of all christians , that is , to be heard what we can say for our selves : and that either before a competent judicature , if it may be had ; or if that cannot be , yet at least by all them that will judge of us . i know no reason to doubt , that if all of them knew but so much of our church as has been said , and if they considered it with that impartiality which we ought to expect from such men , it would work some good effect in no small number of them in that communion . and that effect would appear upon such a review as i have mentioned ; i mean , that we should have right done us in a free general council , if the pope would permit it to be held in our age , or rather if all christian princes would agree to call it themselves , and not wait for his time , which will be never . but though he will not suffer this reason to be done us abroad , where it should be in a common assembly of christians ; yet he cannot hinder us from having it at home , at least in the private judgment of them that do not fear his censures . i have shewn that this is like to be the fruit of a discrimination . it will try who they are . and for them chiefly i intended this digression . in which i have been the more large , because i think it no digression , but rather the best way for the suppressing of popery in this kingdom , to get our church to be better understood by all among us of that communion . and surely , if they did rightly understand it , wise men would consider how they made themselves guilty of heresie and schism by unjustly charging us with those crimes . how of heresie , by joyning with them that have made such additions to the faith : and of schism , in charging us with heresie for not receiving those additions ; and thereupon separating themselves from our communion . they that shall be convinced of their danger in both these , will endeavour to avoid it , by relinquishing that forein power , which they can think themselves no way obliged to , if they better consider it . and finding themselves free from any such obligation , i do not see what should hinder them from joyning themselves to that national church in which god has sufficiently provided all things necessary for their salvation . though if they stay where they are , it may perhaps be better for us upon politic accounts ; which i add as my last instance of the benefit that we may expect from this discrimination . it would be no small benefit to us , if such men continuing in the roman communion would but keep the popish party from being more united , and more active against us . and thus much they would do for us , though they did not intend it . but they will do much more , and that with full intention , unless their opposition to us weigh more with them than their care of themselves . for they will find themselves obliged , if they consider it , as well in duty as interest , and no less obliged both ways then we are , to keep out the forein power from coming in among us . their obligation in conscience will be the same that ours is , and so much more if they are bound to it by oath , whatsoever the oath shall be , that is designed for their discrimination . and as to interest , it will be much more theirs than it is ours , to keep out the common enemy , that will be heavy to us both , but much heavier to them than to us . for as they are fewer in number , so they are better known in their persons , and therefore the more easie to be found out . and being found ; if ever that day should come , which god avert ; though we must look to feel rods , they are sure to be punished with scorpions . the provocation which they have given already has been more than most of us have been able to give : and when we are gone , if they continue , the roman court having no other adversaries , would be the more intent and the more able to root them out of the kingdom . i do not say this to waken them that are most concerned to think of it ; for i suppose they cannot sleep , having so great a danger before their eyes . and if they should happen to forget themselves , they would be wakened by those censures of which enough has been spoken already . it is at present more needful to make our own people ( who do not so well understand the common adversary , as not having had the same experience of him , ) to be sensible how much they are concerned not to lose any help that can be had . and therefore that it is our interest as well as theirs , to preserve such a party of useful men , and to oblige them to joyn with us against him . which can be done no other way but by a discrimination . i cannot think there is any protestant among us , who will not for these , or other the like , considerations , think fit to use the moderation here proposed , and endeavour to promote it in others as far as he is able . unless he may perhaps be discouraged by some other considerations , that may make it seem not so practicable as it were to be desired . for if it can be put in practice , i think no wise and good man , having weighed the reasons here given , will deny that it ought to be ; and that as well in prudence , as in justice , to preserve both church , and state , and whatsoever is dear to us in this nation . the things chiefly alledged against the practicableness of it , are these that follow . i shall first name them , and then consider the consequence of them . first , it is alledged that all they of the roman church are obliged by their principles to follow the judgment of the roman court : and that they actually follow it , in those very things which are popery in the proper signification . secondly , if any of them deny this , or declare and promise the contrary , we can have no assurance of what they say ; they have so many ways to elude all such promises and declarations ; especially being made to hereticks , as they are taught to call us . thirdly , though we have a sufficient assurance of any persons at present , that they are no papists , yet while they are of that communion , they are in a continual danger to be seduced , or change their minds ; and whensoever that happens , ( as it may before we are aware of it , ) they will be able to do us the more hurt , through our relying on the security which they have given us . i confess there is a force in these objections , which i cannot so well avoid , but that they who are chiefly concerned to have them answered may suspect that i use some kind of prevarication ; because i do not answer them their way , or not say all that they think their cause will bear . to secure my self against that most odious imputation ; i do in the first place declare that i shall omit nothing which i think to be material , though i do not pretend to say all they have to say for themselves . and then for their way of answering : if they think they can justifie themselves against the charge that is implied in those mentioned allegations , and that they can thereby entitle themselves as well to trust as to protection ; i confess this is more than i can do for them . and therefore i take so much lower ; endeavouring to excuse the persons as far as they are capable to be excused from those things which are not to be justified in their cause ; and since the law has excluded them from trust , for such reasons as cannot but continue as long as the established religion , i shall yet endeavour to shew that they safely may and ought to have protection , while they give such assurance of their loyalty as they are capable to give , and no otherwise . i shall do it with much the more ease , having the matter prepared to my hand in a book * that was published about two years since , to this purpose . where the objections being proved as to matter of fact , and the inferences drawn with great evidence and strength ; if i should not extract enough to satisfie the reader in either kind i shall however satisfie my self , that i have made him amends by recommending the book to him , where he may find those things said at large , and with very great accurateness , which either cannot so well be contracted , or i cannot do it here , without exceeding the brevity which i design . first , whereas all roman catholics are said to be obliged by their principles to follow the judgment of the roman court ; i find little less than demonstration for this , in a * book lately published . where it is proved that they cannot justifie their calling themselves catholics exclusively to all other christians , any otherwise than by resolving their faith into the infallibility of the roman church as united to the pope ; that is , really , into the infallibility of the pope as being head of the church . so that if he declare , as it is evident he has done , that those things which we call popery are articles of faith , they are bound ( if they will do things consequently to their principles ) either to believe him in those articles , or else to relinquish that communion . this follows by good reasoning ; though that way of proof is not so clear to a vulgar capacity , as that which is drawn from authority , and appears in plain instances of fact. but what greater instance can there be of this kind , than the practice of the whole roman church , which has actually followed the judgment of the roman court , and that in things which are properly popery ? by the whole roman church , i mean that which they call so themselves ; that is , the governing part of the clergy of all the churches of that communion ; that part which acts for all the rest in ecclesiastical matters , and by whose acts all their subjects are obliged according to their own principles . now taking popery ( as i have a defined it ) to be the owning of the pope's pretended authority ; whether in spirituals , over the universal church , or in temporals , over all princes and states ; it hath been proved that this roman church owns this doctrine in both the branches of it . first , in spirituals , there can be no question of this . for none can be of the governing clergy without taking an oath , in which they own the pope's authority with a witness . for they swear fealty to him , and that in those terms which import as well a temporal as a spiritual subjection . no doubt that was hildebrand's sense that made the a oath , and it is most agreeable to the principles and practices of them that impose it . but this i leave to temporal princes and states , and especially to protestants , who are chiefly concerned , to consider it . let the oath be for spirituals only , it is enough to prove the churches subjection to the pope ; because , in that sense at least , it is taken by all the governing clergy . and for the rest , there is a c form of profession , by which they are sworn to him every one in his person , for fear they should not think themselves obliged by the oaths of their superiors . if among them that are the guides of conscience to others , there be any that makes no conscience of an oath ; yet such a one will go which way his interest leads him . and the pope has them all secured to him by interest likewise . not to speak of those ways that his interests are theirs , nor of other ways that he has to oblige them ; it is enough that he is so far patron of the whole church , that none can have a bishoprick , or any other eminent dignity , but he must either take it of the pope's gift , or at least he must come to him for confirmation . having two such sure holds , on the bodies , and on the souls , of his clergy ; the pope is not only in present possession of a spiritual monarchy over the whole roman church , but he is ( as much as it is possible for him to be ) assured that none shall ever be able to take it out of his hands . unless the princes of his communion should come to find their interest in a reformation , which is rather to be wisht for than to be expected in our age ; otherwise , there is nothing that can dispossess him , but a general council . and that indeed he has some cause to apprehend upon the experience of former times . it is remembred by others too often for the pope to forget it , how such a council , d when time was , humbled two or three of his predecessors . but then they that were for the liberty of the church , had not only the diffusive church on their side , but they had a good party among the cardinals themselves . especially they had the papacy at an advantage , being to judge whose it was , among them that pretended to it . they had also the times very favourable to to them , in other circumstances , which i shall not mention , because they are not like to come again . and yet then , what ground they got from popes of disputable titles , they lost afterward to those whose titles were certain . they left free declarations and laws for future times , which might do good , if there were men to put life in them . but withal they left a certain experiment , to shew us , that that good cannot be done by men who are so engaged to the papacy . interest of it self were enough to give the pope a majority of bishops in any council where conscience did not bear too much sway . it was observed by one e that writ for the authority of those councils ; that they could never keep up their side , for this reason , because the pope had the disposing of all the livings . but how much greater must his party be , when all the bishops are bound in conscience likewise , as far as an oath can oblige them , to support the popes spiritual monarchy ? it is hard for men to think that such an oath does not bind them , as well when they are together , as severally . we see the pope so well understood this , that when f it was proposed during the council of trent , that , to make it a free council , he should dispense with the oaths of all the bishops that sate there ; his legates declared that they would rather die than consent to it . i suppose they would not have been so much concerned for that which they had not found to be of very great use in their business . and we see the effect of it . for all the bishops there present , though it was against many of their wills , yet suffered the council to be prorogued , and translated , and rid about how and when the pope pleased , till he had done with them , that is , till they had g made it unnecessary for him ever to have another council . but as safe as he has made himself , in case there should be a general council ; it cannot be denied , that it is safer for him to have none . and therefore presuming there shall be none for the future , as we may judge by the experience of the last hundred years ; we come now to consider what his power is in the intervals of councils . during these , it is acknowledged by the whole roman church , and that as well by the laity as the clergy , that the pope has the supreme authority over all christians . which being another kind of supremacy than we are used to , we are to learn what it is from them that live under it . what they say and write of it , is not the sense of the church , as that is which they swear in those forms before-mentioned . and yet their oaths being in general terms , we cannot so throughly know it from them , as from particular instances of the exercise of it . i suppose they may be said to give him that power , which he exercises every where without let or contradiction . and to name only such instances , there are two which more particularly concern us , and which make him no less than some call him , that is , the virtual church . first , he takes upon himself , and they allow him , to be the only supreme judge of fact in ecclesiastical matters . so that whomsoever he has judged to be heretics , ( of what rank soever they are , kings not excepted , ) they are subject to all canonical punishments , and are avoided as if they were such indeed as he judges them . and as he does not trouble himself to call a council , and to take their sense of the matter before he judges ; so neither , if he judge amiss , are the injured parties relievable by appeal to any other judge whatsoever . if any question this , they do ill to call us heretics ; who were never condemned by any council , at least , not by any that pretended to represent the universal church . it was indeed moved at the council of trent , that they should have declared against queen elizabeth , and it is said h that they forbore to do it for politic reasons . but when the pope i saw his time to declare , it did as well : for , though by the same bull he deprived her of her kingdom , all her subjects of that church broke communion with her , even they that disobeyed the sentence of deprivation . since her time it does not appear that we are under any sentence , but the popes yearly curse on maundy thursday ; and yet that is enough to continue the breach of communion . nay , when henry viii . was condemned by the pope only , and judged a heretic for no other cause but disobedience to him ; though he had a just and lawful appeal then depending , yet then the popes sentence was obeyed , and he was treated as a heretic by all those of the roman communion . if this be not owning the pope to have an absolute authority , yet at least it is no small priviledge , that they allow him , to let in and shut out of their church whom he pleases . but he claims a higher priviledge than this ; that is , to be judge also of doctrines , to define what shall be faith or heresie . this he actually does . and the church so far abets him in it , that if private persons seem to question his judgment , ( as some did when he condemned the iansenists propositions , ) they are punisht for it as rebels to the church . now being in possession of this power to judge of doctrines , what security can they have that he will not employ it to advance his own secular interests under the specious pretence of christian faith ? if he please to make it of faith that all men must obey him , even in temporal things ; this is done already in a k decretal epistle if there be any coherence between the two ends of it . if he should think fit to call it the l henrician heresie , for any one to hold that kings may be obeyed notwithstanding his censures : if he call it the heresie of the m politici for any one to deny the exemption of the clergy from secular courts ; or the heresie of n simon magus , to hold that lay men may lawfully present to church livings : there is nothing new in all this , and therefore he may colourably do it . nay , we have reason to believe he will do it , whensoever he thinks he may do it safely . and that will be , when he is no more in awe of the french monarchy , than he was of the english when he censured the irish remonstrance . it may concern more than protestants to consider this . for no man knows how soon the pope may be concerned either to have him condemned for a heretic , or to make something that he holds go for heresie . and either of these things being done , there is no doubt but that the popes act must be owned by the roman church , in consequence to to their now mentioned principles . for all this is no other than the exercise of that power which they give him in spiritual things . whether they allow him to have the like power in temporals , is the question which we are next to consider . and that they do allow it him , will appear by all the means that we have to know the sense of that church . first , their church virtual , that is , the pope himself , has o declared it again and again ; and that with all the solemnities required by themselves to his decreeing ex cathedra . there never was any pope that disowned it , nor any that owned that notion of the virtual church . their church representative has declared it in divers councils , of which one or other is owned to be general by all them of the roman communion . whereas many require the the popes confirmation of councils to make them general , there is no doubt but such p councils , so confirmed , have declared it . for those that do not hold any necessity of the popes confirmation , those very q councils , which they abet in not holding it necessary , have not only declared this , but they have taken it for a foundation , which in reason should be much more than a definition . they supposed it as a thing out of controversie , and made sundry acts in pursuance of it . their catholic church diffusive has own'd it , by receiving and approving of some councils of both sorts ; so as that whosoever has rejected the councils of one sort , has received those of the other . they own it likewise in such practices , as must be catholic according to their principles . if any practice be catholic , what can be more properly so , than that which is the first commandment of their church ? namely , to keep her festivals , to hear mass , to joyn in offices of the church ? this they do in the memory , and with solemn invocation of them as glorified saints ; who not only ( while they lived ) were abettors of this doctrine , but who were sainted for this reason , because they abetted it . such were r anselm , and s becket ; of whom i need say no more than shew the reader where he may find a very full demonstration of this . but among the many more that i might add of this sort , i shall name only two that deserve more than ordinary notice . namely , hildebrand , the first author of this doctrine ; and pius quintus , who was the first that practised it on queen elizabeth of blessed memory . this last mentioned pope being newly canonized , i suppose , to let us know here in england what we are to expect when time serves . i do not see how they who suffer themselves to be imposed on in this manner , and who fulfil the design of the imposers , in owning such men for saints , can rationally avoid the owning of their principles . and if the doing these things obliges any to own these principles , it has the same force throughout their whole diffusive church . it is not so easie to answer the force of these arguments as it is to produce instances on the contrary ; of them that have written against this doctrine ; especially in france , where it is said to be disowned by a national church . but their writings , and her declarations , will stand us in no stead upon their principles , who expresly except the case of heresie ; as cardinal perron says they all did , and instances in the most eminent of them who defended the rights of princes against popes before the reformation . for i think it will not be doubted that all the writers of that communion , ( even those of the gallican church not excepted ) look upon us as heretics . but besides the french church has been so far from disowning this doctrine , that they have publicly declared for it , and that no longer since than in our fathers days . it cannot yet be forgotten how the body of their clergy , as representing the gallican church , by the mouth of their speaker cardinal perron declared themselves in that famous harangue , which was printed there with royal priviledge , and sent over hither to king * iames , that he might not be ignorant of their sense in this matter . and they declared it not only to be the present sense of their church , but the same that it had constantly been , from the first opening of her divinity schools till calvins time . they shew too much desire to have the french church on their side , that confront these great testimonies , with acts of state , or declarations of universities , or with writings of private men : when they cannot but know , that , according to their principles , neither private men , nor parliaments , nor universities , can pretend to be the gallican church in any case , where they differ from the ecclesiastics . but whereas cardinal perron there says , that all they who writ for the rights of princes against the pope in those times before the reformation , did nevertheless hold that the pope might depose any prince that should be guilty of heresie : though i do not engage to make good his assertion in the utmost extent of it , because it is hard to know the mind of every writer in that controversie ; yet i think it is not hard to shew as many kings who have declared their judgment on his side , as there can be produced of those writers to the contrary . and it is no small proof of the authority of any doctrine , when it is acknowledged by them , who would have been most obliged by their interest to have denied it , if their consciences would have given them leave . for examples of this , we cannot go higher than to the emperour henry iv. whos 's very troublesom times gave occasion to hildebrand to bring this doctrine first into the world . and it is very observable , that in the infancy of it , he that was so unfortunate to be made the first instance of the cursed effects of this doctrine ; though he denied the popes power over him in all other respects , yet he t owned it in this of heresie , which is worth all the rest put together . perhaps he thought it did not concern him , at first , so much as he found it did afterwards . for having granted that the pope might depose him in case of heresie , it was enough ; then the pope knew what he had to do . it was only to make a new heresie of something which he would not or could not deny ; and then how easie was it to take away his crown as being forfeited by his own confession ? another example of this we have in the emperour frederic ii. who being in no very good terms with the pope , thought to get into favour by shewing his zeal against heresie . and he shewed it sufficiently , by giving the force of a temporal u law to that canon of their general council of lateran ; by which every heretic is made to forfeit his estate , as well they that have no chief lord over them , as others of inferiour rank and condition . in consequence of this , when the pope saw occasion to take away his crown , and wanted only some good colour for it ; among other crimes with which he charged him , this was one , that he was guilty of heresie : which appeared , as the pope was pleased to say , by no doubtful and light , but by evident arguments ; for that it was manifest enough that he had run into many perjuries : these are the very words of the x sentence . by which also it sufficiently appears , that not only error in doctrine , but even vice or misgovernment may suffice to make a heretic , when a prince's being so will forfeit his crown to the pope . but as humane nature is , and in a fortune so liable to temptation , how hard a thing it is for any prince to escape this charge ? while the pope is allowed to be judge , as well who is guilty of the fact , as what fact shall amount to a heresie . for he may as groundlesly judge one guilty of perjury , as he did in that instance judge that guilt to be heresie : and yet both these judgments so inseparably belong to the same jurisdiction , that they who grant him either of them , ought in reason to grant him both ; as we have shewn they do , according to the principles of the roman church . and whereas it is alleaged , that some national councils have declared for the independent right of kings ; though none ever did so , but they are y branded for it , at least , in all the later editions of the councils ; yet of these it is observable , that they never supposed the case of heresie , in which there is no reason to doubt that they went with the stream of the roman church . it is more observable that , bating that case , the rights of princes against the pope were scarce ever maintained by any council of any nation or province but those who were under the aw of princes . and even of them , very many have recanted , as soon as they found themselves at liberty to do it ; and that conscientiously , as we have reason to believe . but on the other side , the most conscientious persons of that communion have stood their ground in the most disadvantagious circumstances . they have stuck to it , and maintained it , and never recanted their doctrine ; howsoever they might have some remorse at some of those horrid practices into which they were led by it . now by the principles of that communion , whatsoever has been the sense of their church , can never cease to be so on further trial , but must be the churches doctrine for ever . they who defend infallibility of judgment cannot avoid this . nor they who hold infallibility of tradition : since they teach , that , whatsoever has once prevailed , and that universally over all churches , and specially over all conscientious persons ; could never prevail so , unless it had been delivered from the beginning . but of this doctrine it has been proved , that it was in the church before those councils above mentioned , and was either declared or supposed by those general councils , therefore it must have been from catholic tradition . and therefore , according to their principles , it ought not to be called to a review ; much less be disbelieved , or disputed , by any in this present age , whatsoever advantage it may have , above those former ages , in point of learning and monuments , for the discerning of catholic tradition . what has been said is sufficient to make it appear , that all they of the roman church , by the principles of their communion , are obliged to maintain these doctrines of popery . whence it will follow , that as long as they are true to those principles , we cannot be secure that they will not practise those doctrines . therefore all the reason we can have to believe that they will do us no hurt , if they are truly conscientious persons , is only this ; that we may hope they do not yet know their churches sense in this matter . at present they do not see the repugnancy between their duty to princes , and the principles of their communion . but this will only secure us so long as they do not see it ; and that may be a very little while . for as the proofs of this inconsistency are great , and notorious ; so they are ready to be objected to them by their adversaries in their own communion . and therefore we can have little security of them , if we can have none any longer than while we may suppose them likely to continue in this ignorance . so that the only solid and lasting reason that we have , or can have to hope well of the loyalty of any such consciencious persons among them , must be the assurance that we have of their firmer adherence to their duty to king and country than to the principles of their communion . of these persons we may be secured , whilest they are ignorant of that inconsistence , because , if they are truly such as we take them to be , they cannot but think themselves bound in conscience to deal fairly and uprightly with us . and when the papalins , who will still be practising upon them , shall have brought them to discern that inconsistency ; the effect of it may be better than they intend . for we have reason to hope that such persons will be so far from quitting their duty for their communion , that they may be rather induced to leave their communion ; when they shall be convinced that it is not possible to maintain it without complying with those doctrines which they have in so great detestation . and these hopes of the good effect of this countenance to them above others , and of the consequent jealousie of those others of their own communion , may be a farther encouragement to zealous protestants , to fhew them this countenance ; not only in regard of the security which such as these may give to the state , but also in regard of the hopes , that , in process of these disputes among themselves , they may at last by the wisdom of god be won over to the protestant communion . and concerning these persons for whom the favour of the laws is desired , we have reason to believe that many of them do really adhere more firmly to the sense of their duty to their country , than to that of continuing in the roman communion . many of them are such as have given good proof of it already , of which instances might be produced , if it were necessary . but to wave all historical inquiries in this place ; if the state desire satisfaction herein , it may be had by the form which shall be tendred to them . by which they may profess that they do in conscience believe themselves more obliged to pay their duty to their prince and country , than to stand to the authoritative decision of any judge whatsoever that is owned in the church of that communion . the second thing objected against that discrimination here proposed , is this , which were considerable enough of it self , but much more being added to the other . it is said , that we can have no assurance of any engagement they make to us , they have so many ways to elude the force of it ; what by equivocation , and mental reservation , what by popes dispensations , by their doctrine of probability , and the rest . there are so many of them , that , considered one after another , they look like a contrivance to destroy all faith among men . for when we think our selves assured by their promise , and especially , when confirmed with an oath ; yet , by equivocation , that oath , in their sense , shall signifie quite otherwise than was meant by them that made or imposed it . if they do not equivocate , yet they may have some mental reservation ; saying inwardly not , or something else that quite alters the meaning of what is spoken . and if they swear without either of these tricks ; yet they may believe the pope can dispense with that oath , or he can absolve them when they have taken it . and though the pope should not do this , yet their church * hath given them the president of breaking faith with known heretics . and if they make conscience of that ; yet it may be some doctors opinion , that there is something unlawful in this oath , which though they did not discover before , and therefore took it , yet having discovered this after , they may think themselves not obliged by it . and though they should not be of this doctors opinion , yet that extrinsic probability of this doctors authority may be enough to sway them against their own convictions to the contrary . the probability that there is of their holding all these opinions , as having been held by doctors of reputation among them , and none of them ever censured for it by the church , ( though she hath taken all possible care to censure all such opinions as may be any way contrary either to her judgment or interest ) this presumption is sufficient to persuade private persons , that their church , though perhaps she may not believe them true , yet believeth them not hurtful or dangerous to her children . and if a doctrine hath no danger in it , though it prove to be false , yet the security of it is inducement enough for men to practise it . these principles will the rather hold , because according to their other principles , they are taught to relie on the judgment of their church in matters of belief even where they cannot do it without renouncing their own judgment . and in this objection , it is very considerable , that it is not so easie as it was in the former , to distinguish who they are that do indeed hold these dangerous principles . only we have reason to suspect all them that keep to that communion upon principles of conscience . for they must think themselves bound in conscience to hold these principles to be practicable , because they are so , according to the principles of their communion . and they who are once suspected upon prudent grounds , can neither clear themselves , nor satisfie us , by any form of profession they can make . because we must still suspect , that such persons do prevaricate , even in those forms by which they seem to renounce prevarication . this objection hath been made , and it is not without visible cause . now in answer to this , it cannot be denied but that many of them have maintained such principles of this kind as would destroy all possible trust in dealing with them . and if they had stood to these principles in their actions , this would have given us cause to suspect all the rest of their communion , while they continue in it . but whatsoever they say in their disputes , we have reason to judge of their belief , by what they shew of it when they come to the trial of action . and thus , even the papalins themselves have not ventured to act upon these principles , even where they could have nothing to hinder them from it , but convictions of conscience . they who have died rather than they would take that oath , which according to these principles they might have taken , and prevaricated in it , have plainly shewn , that even they durst not trust their own subtilties when they came to be practised . nay , the pope himself , who hath forbidden them to take these oaths , and hath animated them to be martyrs rather than take them , would not have exposed his dearest friends to such extreme hazards , if in earnest he himself could have approved the practising of these principles . the utmost therefore that we may fear in dealing with them seems only this ; that , whilst they renounce one form of prevarication , they may make use of another . if they renounce equivocation ; they may at the same time , believe themselves obliged not to equivocate , and yet not renounce the belief of the popes authority to dispense with their oath , if that be not expresly contained in the form. but we have no reason to believe , that men of such politics as the court of rome are known to be , can possibly , when they come to practise , own fuch principles , as are like to prove so prejudicial to their own interest . or if they should be overseen so far as to do this , yet the mischief that would follow upon it being likely to prove more dangerous to themselves than to us , we have no reason to fear running the hazard of it . for if there are any that believe that they may prevaricate in the very same form of prevarication which they renounce ; how is it possible that the roman court it self can be assured of such persons ? that court it self hath found by experience , that it hath had many real enemies , that still pretended to live in its communion . how can they be assured but that many of these , who pretend to be their servants and subjects , may prove to be their dangerous enemies ? if in earnest they may prevaricate , even coram iudice , in a thing not belonging to his jurisdiction ; how can the court secure themselves , that persons persuaded of the injustice of the popes claim to a power in temporal things upon any pretence whatsoever ; may not prevaricate with him , since they believe that these matters belong not to his jurisdiction ? how can they secure themselves , but that multitudes of such persons , may , therefore , still keep to their communion ; purposely to form intrigues against them , which they could not do , if they were out of it ? it is certain that not only the papalins have owned these doctrines , but even those who have been the greatest adversaries of the papacy among themselves . particularly , the council of constance is that which gave authority to the doctrine of breaking faith with known heretics . and according to the definition of that same council , the a pope himself , and all they who challenge for him the supremacy over councils , are heretics for doing so . and therefore , why may they not break faith with him as well as with any other heretic ? this is a just reason for him to suspect , and they who are once suspected can give him no assurance by these principles . since therefore the belief of this liberty of using reflexive prevarication , is neither for the interest , nor agreeable to the practice of the roman court it self ; and since the danger that may follow in the trust of it must be more theirs than ours , for it destroys the faith of all whom they have to employ either to defend themselves or to prejudice us ; we have reason to believe that forms , whereby they renounce prevarication , may oblige them to bar themselves the use of those prevarications which they do therein expresly renounce . so that for giving us compleat security , nothing more can be desired but that the forms to be tendred to them may take in all the cases wherein any celebrated doctors among them do allow them this liberty of prevaricating . and therefore the drawing up of this test would be more properly a work of divines than of statesmen ; and more particularly , of such divines as have been most conversant in the casuists of the roman church . if this will not suffice , how is it possible that even protestants , who are once suspected of inclining to popery , can ever purge themselves of this imputation ? we have had too many instances of unjust accusations of this kind . it hath been generally the fate of them who have been most zealous for the church of england , or for any thing of order and discipline in it , to have been thus represented to the people by men who have desired to make them odious . and the mischief which must follow upon this distrust among our selves , even of those who are our most zealous patriots , and therefore most eminently capable of doing service , is a mischief much greater than we can fear from any thing that can follow on such a trust of the romanists as have been here described . it will make us uncapable of driving on any great design , either for our own defence , or to defeat their machinations against us . and therefore it must be much more mischievous to us , than any hurt we can suffer from those of the roman communion , especially from those who desire , not our trust , but protection . if it be farther suspected , that , when they have taken all the tests that can be given them , still their minds may alter after all this ; and that so long as their priests are near them , and have their ear , we have too just reason to suspect that they may actually change . it will be easie to reply , that a change may be possible , when all diligence hath been used to the contrary . but we have no reason to believe it probable , of them who , by a test that hath been before propounded , shall profess themselves more obliged to theirduty to king and country than to any judgment or interest of their church to the contrary . for whosoever they are that are ready to oppose the judgment of their church it self , if she should declare any thing contrary to their duty ; it cannot in reason be supposed , that they should be so far influenced by a priest , as to do that for his sake , which they would not do in obedience to the church . but if yet it be farther suspected , that their priests may be enabled to work such a change in their penitents by their intimacy and assiduity with them , and by that reverence that is usually born to their persons , which , being alway present with them , may perhaps prevail more than the dumb definitions of the church . yet this danger the state may very easily remedy , and will do it by the making of a just and prudent discrimination . for that being to be made by such a test as the state shall require , no other priests will be allowed , but only such as have taken it . and the test being made with such a clause as hath been proposed , the priests that take it will be upon the same terms with their laity ; and will be equally obliged in behalf of the state , to oppose any pretence that can be brought by any person or power whatsoever to draw them from their allegiance . and if there be any fear of practices against the state by them that , having taken the test , have been secretly changed by some means against which no provision is made ; the danger of this also may be prevented , as far as any thing may be done by obligations of conscience . not to say that their interest will oblige them likewise in great measure . it may be done by a frequent repetition of this test , which may discover any change in some short time after it is made ; and so may give an early stop to any practices which might follow upon it . the priests also may be obliged by their oath to declare the independent right of kings in their sermons , as expresly , and as oft , as the state shall prescribe . and it may be so ordained that they shall continue in their charge no longer than while they can bring sufficient testimony that they have done it . these expedients will suffice in all likelihood to prevent the defection of them who have given security to the state , or at least will secure it in time from receiving any dangerous hurt by their defection . conclvsion . to conclude all with a brief summary of what i conceive advisable in this whole affair . i think it is not so proper to make the distinction between regulars and seculars . because many seculars are more addicted to these principles than many of the regulars ; and some of the regulars have declared against these principles , and suffered for it more than any seculars in our age . besides that it may seem very partial to prejudge men by their ranks , when they may distinguish themselves sufficiently otherwise . yet withal , whereas there are divers of those regular orders , that were never received in england , even by the romanists themselves ; and who have here intruded themselves as well against their own c canons as against the known laws of the land ; it is but reasonable that we should take that advantage against them , which not only our laws , but even their own canons will allow . especially where we have reason in other regards to suspect them above others of being active and industrious in driving on dangerous defigns . and this advantage may be taken against d three eminent orders among them ; which have been founded since the reformation , and were never canonically received here in england , and yet are as active as any other in designs for the advancing of popery . for the rest who are not thought fit to be totally excluded , the most equal way for them , and as secure a way for us , to distinguish them ; is to do it by such a test as has been more than once before mentioned . that this is a safe way may appear from what hath been already shewn ; that even the high papalins themselves cannot prevaricate in renouncing prevarication , and therefore may be capable of giving assurance to the state by submission to tests , if they are known to be consciencious otherwise . but antecedently to any test , for some of them , it would be requisite , that they should first renounce their former oaths and obligations ; or explain them so as to secure us that they will not be induced by them to any dangerous practice against the state. those of them , as their bishops and others , who have taken oaths to the pope , as they are prescribed by their pontifical ; either to explain them , if they can possibly do it , so that we may be satisfied of their innocency ; or to retract them , where they will not admit of such an explication . and here also it ought to be considered what oaths are taken by those proselytes whom they gain into the roman communion . when this is done , and not till then , they may be capable of being admitted to take the test. which ought in reason to contain all that which the law hath already prescribed , as being that which the wisdom of our law-makers have judged fit and sutable to their condition . it is not reasonable for them to expect that any of those trials should be waved which have been made even since the reformation ; as long as the same reason continues which prevailed with our legislators to prescribe them . but if they were to make a test for themselves , i do not see how they can with any confidence decline those professions which were made by their ancestors before the reformation . they have so frequently boasted of them , and alledge them as arguments of the consistence of their religion with their loyalty . and therefore it were fit that the test should take in all those doctrines concerning the rights of kings which are contained or supposed in the ancient laws . especially in those which themselves have produced for the honour of their communion ; as namely , the assize of clarendon , the statutes of provisors and premunire . these they cannot with any confidence refuse , if they will but pretend to deal ingenuously , and to let us see that they have been in earnest in those elogies which they have given their predecessors for making them . beside the forementioned particulars , it were also needful for our satisfaction , that they would profess themselves so far convinced in conscience of their obligation to their prince and country , that no ecclesiastical judge or judicatory whatsoever shall be able to draw them either from the belief , or from the practice of their duty . this will fully secure us of their loyalty , if they deal sincerely in it . and for satisfying us of their sincerity , it hath already been advised , to renounce all their pretences to dissimulation . and great care should be taken that no doctrine be left out of this test , which would leave them any liberty of this kind , in the judgment of any celebrated or uncensured casuist in their church . this will be not only a sufficient , but also a just ground to distinguish between them . for when a test being thus contrived shall be prescribed by authority , it will then appear that none are like to suffer the severity of the laws but they who either are truly criminal , or are justly suspected of being so , even for their refusing of such a test. and then that due severity which may be thought necessary to preserve the state from their practising against it , may be executed on them with less colour of exception to the penalties . they who have extolled the loyalty of their forefathers , in making those laws already mentioned , cannot except against the penalties mentioned in those laws . they cannot pretend that there was any other cause of severity , in them , but their care for the security of the public ; for they were otherwise of their own communion , and therefore could not be liable to any suspition of that rigour against them , of which they may suspect us in regard of our differences of communion . for other penalties , i say no more , but leave them to the wisdom of the state ; who best know that due measure of severity that is requisite in our present circumstances . for as their case may in some reasons vary from the condition of them against whom those laws were made ; so it is fit that their punishments should do so too , whether their case be more excusable now or then , that also i do not take upon me to determine . for them who will take the test so contrived , and that as oft as the state shall require ; it were fit that such favour be shewn to them as may consist with the safety of the state. and all the favour which themselves have desired , is their exemption from sanguinary laws , and protection against their popish adversaries , and permission to live in their country , upon the same terms as other dissenters do , who are as innocent as themselves will be upon this supposal . as for places of trust , they do not pretend to them . which may be a security against all reasonable jealousies . for other laws which have been made against the forein education of their children ; they will not then have the pretence of any necessity for it , when they may have them taught at home , by persons well affected to the state , and yet otherwise of their own religion . and they will have no excuse , if they do it without any necessity . so that they cannot object against any determination that the state shall think fit to make in that particular ; whether the laws now in force shall be continued , or changed , and if continued , under whatsoever conditions and penalties it should be done . and if it be thought fit to impose on them such small pecuniary penalties as may only oblige them in interest to endeavour the farther satisfaction of their conscience ; it might be convenient that those sums were applied to maintain converts to the church , and to reward them that shall inform the state how these things are observed among them . this will be likely to keep up the practice of these laws , when they cannot be secured from discoverers among themselves . and may also be a means by degrees to reduce them to the communion of the church in order to the capacitating of them for farther favours . thus much was in prudence necessary to be said , to shew as well the practicableness , as the convenience of this proposal . the convenience has appeared in the discourse it self , and the practicableness in the answer to the objections . for other more particular expedients i leave them to the prudence of the state ; whose most proper office it is , and who are best acquainted with all particular circumstances to determine . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a48816-e110 a p. 44. these ten years . p. 50. march was twelve month . p. 66 m. luzance 's case . b chiefly from p. 80. till the conclusion . notes for div a48816-e1900 all churches and sects are popish according to some mens notions of popery . no rites nor doctrines common to other churches , which are not in communion with the pope , can be popish , but in a false notion of the word . the true notion of popery describ'd . of the pope's authority over all christians . this authority was the first thing in popery . all other popish errours were brought in by it . this authority is the chief thing in popery . a poli. reformatio angliae decr . 1. b ib. decr . 2. c conc. lateran . v. sess. 2. d sess. 3. e sess. 4. f sess. 11. g conc. trident. sess. 25. decr . de reform . c. 21. h ib. c. 2. i ib. in contin . decr . 5. obedience to this authority the only sure property of roman catholicks . camd. eliz. anno 1560. it is also the worst thing in popery . * martyrolog . roman . maii 25. * rev. 13.5 . * luke 4.6 . it is worst in the construction of the law. camd. eliz. anno 1571. ib. anno 1577. ib. anno 1581. * rishton says it of himself in his virulent cont. of sand. de schism angl. papist , an equivocal word . improperly papists . * r. c. ( i. e. ) ricardus chalcedonensis , alias , dr. smith , the last roman catholick bishop that pretended jurisdiction here in england , was of this mind , as appears by his book against the bishop of derry , entituled , a brief survey , &c. vid. cap. 5. p. 55. where he says , 't is no point of faith , whether the pope be st. peter's succeffor iur● divino , or humano . half-papists . throrough-papists . their description . zenzelini glossa ; dominus deus noster papa . vid. glos. extravag . cum inter de verb. signif . edit . paris , an. 1585. the main argument . undistinguishing severity is not the way to suppress popery . it would be ineffectual . 2. it would not seem just and equitable . it is so expresly provided in 27 eliz. for fthe oath of supremacy , and 3 iac. for the oath of allegiance . justitia britannica 8 o. lond. 1584. and k. iames works . p. 252. & 336. and k. charles i. vol. 1. p. 384. * 1666 iun. 11. v. hist. of irish remonstrance , part 2. page 671. * dated 1533. aug. 30. camden . eliz. an . 1592. ibid. an . 1602. pag. 276. * he writ his books in the name of widdrington . the pope and his party are against the distinguishing of roman catholicks . * pref. of his book against fitz herbert the jesuite . * father fitz herbert . hist. of the irish remons . part 1. p. 515. two ways useful to the pope's design against england . i. an undistinguishing execution of the laws agai●st popery . ii. toleration . toleration is a way to destroy the establish'd religion . toleration would weaken the civil government . v. dr. baily's life of b. fisher , about the end of it . a toleration would increase the number of papists . the true way to suppress popery , is by severity to papists , and clemency to other roman catholicks . john 16.2 . 1 pet. 2.14 . prov. 14.34 . isa. 28.19 . euseb. hist. eccl. v. 24. vales. in locum . firmilians epistle among cyprian's , epist. 75. pag. 166. edit . rigaltii . cypr. epist. 74. & 75. vide rigalt . in cyprian , epist. 75. iuly 28. and august 2. * cyprian , ep. 74. & 75. † rigalt . obs. in ep. 75. * almost 22 years after the reign of alexander severus . cyprian , epist. 75. p. 160. * in their synodical epist. * see in the codex , canonum universalis ecclesiae , or in the councils ; concil . nicen. i. can . 6. concil . constant. i. can . 2. concil . ephes. i. can . 8. conc. chalced. can . 28. together with act. 16. of that council . concil . afric . can . 31. in the greek , or 72. and 92. in the latin. epist. ad coelestinum , which is at the end of that council . † the western and eastern bishops together , were 170. saith st. athamasius , ( who was one of them ) adsolit . vitam agen●es . tom. 1.818 . of the eastern , 73 declared against the western bishops . hilar. fragm . p. 448. and some were neuters . * by his novel , dated an. 445. iune 6. vid. leo i. epist. 89. * there were no brittish bishops at the council of sardica ; as appears by the inscription of the synodical epistle , athan. tom. 1. p. 756. and by the subscriptions , both of the synodical epistle , hilar. fragm . col . 408. and of the canons in the edition of isidorus mercator . though the brittish bishops or some of them did afterwards approve of the councils judgment in the case of st. athanasius . ath. tom. 1. p. 720. ( where note , the translation is false . ) and as for that law of valentinian iii. it was not made till after britain was forsaken by the romans ; which was theodosii 18 ( or anno 440. ) saith prosper pithaei ; anno 443. saith the saxon chron. theodosii 23. ( or anno 455. ) saith beda , hist. l. 13. * page 4 , 5 , &c. 2. cor. 10.8 . james 3.15 . from king stephen to hen. iii. pisa , constance , siena , and basil . greg. xii . and bennet xiii . and iohn xxiii . * concil . const. sess. 39. aux . part i. 28 and ult . and 11 , 14 , 21. theod. de niem . nemoris , part . 6. c. 10. ioh. marius de schism . & conc. 1.19 , & 24. a the. cromwel . herbert . p. 173 , 174. b dr. lee and tregonion . fox . p. 119. dr. london . fox p. 897 , and 1104 , &c. c b. gardiner . b. bonner , &c. d camden , eliz. p. 26. e sand. de schism . p. 103. b. ed. 1585. cressy pref. to exom . a labbe chron. an. 1528. b l. herbert in henry viii . c 1502 ending . d l. herbert . ib. e ibid. f 1505. iune 27. ibid. page 249. g 1509. iune 3. pol. virgil. h sand. de sch. page 9. who makes 1526. the first year of the divorce . * sand. ib. & pallavicino . i hist. conc. trent ii. 15.5 . sand. ib. p. 10. * 1527. the second year . i l. herbert . † sand. ibid. k 1527. septem . l. herbert . l from the bishop of tarbe's speech before the council . sand. de schism . page 10. m pallav. hist. conc. trid. ii. 15.9 . n sand. de schism . p. 27. l. herb. p. 233. o guicciard . hist. ital. l. 19. camd. eliz. p. 3. p 1528. ian. 13. letter of casalis in l. herbert . 1528. the third year . q camden eliz. p. 2. saith in his 38. year of age . but he was born 1491. iune 28. r camden . ibid. p. 102. s camden , ibid. saith , being then returned . heylin saith , she returned with her father from his embassie ; which was in 1527. saith stow , in that year . * page 10. t camden , ibid. sand. de schism . p. 23. pallavic . ibid. 11.15.8 . u sand. ibid. p. 17. x camd. eliz. p. 3. y l. herb. p. 232. z sand. ibid. p. 28. a l. herb. 1528. decemb. 17. b signified to the king , 1529 iun. 13. l. herbert . publisht iuly 3. ibid. c thuan. l. 1. p. 18. c. d. d a vocation signed iun. 15. l. herbert . 1529. the fourth year . e in august . fox mart. p. 1688. lin . 88. f fuller hist. of camb. sect. 6. n. 40. g cardinal bellay's brother , and bishop stokesly . stow , p. 532.1530 . the fifth year . h bologna and padua . i l. herb. 1530. iun. 13. and 22. k l. herb. ib. aug. 24. and 29. and sept. 23. l aug. 31. ibid. m speed , hen. 8. n. 71. a camd. eliz. p. 3. and 4. b wolsey and warham . l. herb. p. 334. c 1530. aug 9. florence taken , 1531. iuly 7. alex. medices made duke of it . ricciol . chron. d l. herb. p. 335.1531 . the sixth year . e apr. 30. stow. l. herb. p. 352. may 31. f l. herb. p. 354. g iuly 14. l. herb. ibid. h 1532. feb. l. herb. p. 363. i march 16. l. herb. p. 364. 1532. the seventh year . k iuly 8. l. herb. p. 364. k iuly 8. l. herb. p. 364. l nov. 4. m nov. 14. l. herb. ibid. n sand. de schism . p. 60. cooper . holinshed . 129 , &c. 1533. the eighth year . o may 23 ▪ l. herb. p. 375 , &c. p iune 1. q sand. de schism . p. 29. r iuly 11. l. herb. p. 386. s nov. 7. bonner delivered the appeal . l. herb. p. 389. t nov. 10. l. herb. ibid. u decemb. 2. l. herb. p. 395 , 396. x l. herb. p. 396. and lab. chron. a. 1534 † in the christmas holy-days . l. herb. p. 396. y l. herb. and labbe . ibid. z march 19. l. herb. p. 396● 1534. a l. herb. ibid. b l. herb. and labbe . ibid. c pope iulius ii. stiled him , defender of the papal dignity . leo x. stiled him , defender of the faith. and clement vii . the deliverer of the roman city . d l. herb. and labbe . ibid. e l. herbert . p. 397. f mar. 23. l. herb. ibid. g l. herbert . p. 406. h bzovius ann . 1534.7 . i 1534. sept. 26. paul iii. k l. herb. p. 451. l novem. 3 ▪ m l. herb. ibid. n 1535 aug. 30. l. herb. p. 394. o 1538. dec. 17. l. herb. and labbe . l. herb. p. 489. marius de schism . & conc. part 3. c. 16. pallav. hist. iii. 12.5 . stow chron. 1533. may. mantua , vicenza . 1536. iuly 20 , l. herb. p. 471 , 472. 1537. mar. 25. l. herb. p. 489. 1538. april 8. l. herb. p. 502. rich. pates titular bishop of worcester , l. herb. p. 609. * l. herbert . p. 451 , 452. a l. her. p. 584 , and 595. b b. tonstal's letter in foxes acts , &c. ii. 347.60 . edit . 1641. c sand. de schism . p. 53 l. herb. p. 329. d sand. de schism . p. 55. e l. herbert . p. 418. v. poli orat. ad . imp. f b. tonstal ib. ii. 345.10 . in his printed sermon . ibid. 341.46 . g l. herbert . p. 511. h labbe chro. anno 1537. i pag. 45. k pag. 8 , 9. l sand. de schis . p. 68. b. m pa. 97 , 98. n conc. trid. sess. 4. an. 1546. april 8. o supra p. 91 sand. de schis . p. 139. p camd. eliz. p. 39 , 40. q v.b. sparrow's collection . r xxxix articles . art. 37. s see sir roger twisden's collection of them in his vindication . t supra p. 18.45 . u l. herbert . p. 408. x supra p. 45. y sand. de schism . p. 134. z camd. eliz. a she puts out thirteen bishops . b fox acts and mon. 1280.60.1282.50 . and 1332.20 , 80. c full. church hist. l. 8 §. 3. n. 41. & pallavic . hist. conc. trid. xv. 7.1 , 2 d 1559. ian. 23 e camd. eliz. p. 39. f ibid. p. 25. g v. supra . h v. bramhal●'s vindication . p. 86. i camd. eliz. p. 41. bonner , tonstal , and thurlby . k camd. eliz. p. 36. l supra . p. 6 , 7. m anno 1562. n conc. trident. sess. 4. o cressy's ep. apol. n. 132. p supra , p. 8 , 9. q conc. chalced. can. 30. in the codex canonum universae ecclisiae , and in binnius iii. p. 447. e. edit . paris . an. 1636 a pa. 81 , &c. b anno 787. conc. nic. ii. said to be of 350 bishops . c anno 754. conc. const. of 338 bishops . anno 794. conc. frankf . of about 300. * dr. stillingfleet in answer to t. g. p. 812. to p. 838. * supra p. 88. e v. greg. vii . dict●ta . f hence the style of those decrees ; alex. in conc. lateran . innocent . in conc. lateran . &c. pag. 78 , 80. objections against the practicableness of this discrimination . * considerations of present concernment . 1675. i. the roman church and court not differing in their principles . * h. dodwell of the fundamental principle of popery . a pag. 6. a v. labbe's edition of the councils tom . x. p. 23. a. and p. 379. e. compared with the oath in the pontifical . c ib. tom . xiv . col. 944. c. & v. sup . p. 10. d v. supra p. 88. e iohn major . f anno 1552. hist. conc. trid. l. 4. and pallavic . hist. xii . 15.12 . & . 15. g v. supra p. 10 h pallavic . hist. trent . xxi . 7.5 i sand. de schism . contiu . p. 182. k unam sanctam . tit . de major . & obed. l concil . edit . labb . tom . x. p. 405. a. &c. m baron . anno 1046. n. 4. n baron . anno 1111. n. 29. & n. 42. o from hildebrand downward . p h. d. considerations § xxx . of third lateran . § xxxi . of the fourth . § xxxvi . of the council of lions . q ibid. § xxxvii . of the council of constance . & v. concil . tom . 12. p. 276. d. r h.d. considerations , § xxviii . s ib. § ix . &c. * king iames thought himself concerned to write his defence of the right of kings , in answer to it . v. his works p. 383. t brunonis hist. belli sax. p. 123. lin. 18. in freheri germ. edit . francof . 1600. councils of labbe's edition , tom. xi . part . 1. col. 727. d. & 629. e. u bzov. an. 1221. n. 2. & 1225. n. 10. x councils of labb●'s edition , tom. xi . part . 1. col. 642. a. y being called conciliabula . answer . the second objection . * council of constance sess ▪ 19. in labbe's edition of councils , tom. xii . col. 196. e. & 1 ▪ 0. a. answer . a council of basil in labbe's councils , tom. xii . p. 620. d. & 621. a. & 766. b. & 767. b. c no new order of regulars is to be admitted in any place without leave of the ordinary , v. conc. trident. sess. 25. de regular . cap. 3. & bullam urb. viii . 1628. aug. 28. which begins with romanus pontifex in the bullarium cherubini of lyons edition . tom ▪ iv. p. 62. d jesuites , discalceat carmelites , and cappucìns . roman-catholick doctrines no novelties, or, an answer to dr. pierce's court-sermon, miscall'd the primitive rule of reformation by s.c. a roman-catholick. cressy, serenus, 1605-1674. 1663 approx. 535 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 176 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a34974) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 49048) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 812:6) roman-catholick doctrines no novelties, or, an answer to dr. pierce's court-sermon, miscall'd the primitive rule of reformation by s.c. a roman-catholick. cressy, serenus, 1605-1674. [14], 322, [6] p. s.n.], [s.l. : 1663. reproduction of original in huntington library. epistle dedicatory signed: s.c. includes contents p. [1]-[5] at end. errata: p. [6] at end. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng pierce, thomas, 1622-1691. -primitive rule of reformation. catholic church -doctrines. reformation -early works to 1800. 2003-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-08 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-09 olivia bottum sampled and proofread 2003-09 olivia bottum text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion roman-catholick doctrines no novelties : or an answer to dr. pierce's court-sermon , mis-call'd the primitive rule of reformation . by s. c. a roman-catholick . 1 pet. 3. 15. parati semper ad satisfactionem omni poscenti vos rationem de eâ quae in vobis est spe , cum modestiâ & timore , conscientiam habentes bonam , ut in eo quod detrahunt vobis confundantur . mdclxiii . to the queen-mother . madam , it cannot be doubted but your majesty has of late been a great sufferer , in being forced to hear frequent and loud triumphs for a supposed victory , which , by a court-sermon , scarce an hour long , the english protestant church at one blow , and without any resistance , pretends to have a gained over the catholick . but your sufferings were much more encreased , when you saw the immediatly following effects of that and several other sermons of the like stile , which , by concert , at the same time proclaimed distruction to that very christianity , which first expelled paganism out of our nation . your majesty has oftentimes heretofore been wakened and affrighted with such alarmes : but then the trumpets were blown by men whose profession and religion obliged them to renounce all humanity towards us , and all respect to monarchy . whereas this last unexpected blast proceeded from those , who , even but yesterday , promised us , as a reward for our common sufferings , a security from those our common enemies , whose malice and rage we only apprehended . god forbid we should be astonish'd , as if some strange thing hapned to us , to see our religion persecuted : it is impossible it should be otherwise , because the great enemy of truth and charity wil never be reconciled to live at peace with either . yet when we see so wonderful and so sudden a change in formerly professed friends , when not only the hands , but the voice of jacob , are become the voice and hands of e●au : and when we , examining our selves , can neither find nor suspect any demerit to provoke our protestant friends against us ; nor so much as imagin , what advantage they can gain by our ruine , but rather an apparent harm to themselves : this being a case of suffering , for the entertaining which we have no pattern to prepare us , and for mitigating which , all rational means are uneffectual , we cannot forbid our selves a little to wonder at it : yet this great blessing we may reap from it , that thereby we are even forced to our own happiness , by having recourse for comfort and deliverance to god onely , who , when the world goes farthest from us , himself approaches nearest to us , and looking fixedly on him , we shall discover , by his divine light , how our unexampled ingratitudes have extorted from him unexampled punishments . so many years of oppressions , and such vicissitudes in them , have not diminished , much less changed the constancy of our affections to creatures ; we have passionately loved the world , even when it was bitter to us ; when god called us to mourning and penitential humiliations , we dissembled the taking notice of it : in the midst of persecutions we contended in pride and vain jollities with our oppressors : yet now we see how mercifully god deals with us , lest our former miseries should prove beginnings of eternal ones , he has brought upon us these new and unfore-seen afflictions , for a last tryal whether his mighty hand can humble us , or no. he has seen that the fideli●y we perform'd to our temporal governors , and the charitable assistance we afforded to our fellow suffring brethren we perhaps expected should be recompensed by them in this life . therefore he will have us continue the same duties more cordially , now that we know and see that himself only must be our reward . our complaints and prayers ( which are so far from mitigating , that they rather incense some spirits against us ) he will force us to addresse to himself onely ; which if we do as we ought , and mend our lives under his correction , we shal certainly pacify him , and , when he sees it for our good , conciliate men to us also ; since for this last , which onely can be doub●ed , we have no lesse engagement than that of his own word : when the waies of a man please our lord , he will convert even his enemies to him . madam , these reflections i can with much more assurance represent to your majesties consideration , because , though hitherto the too common in sensibility of catholicks to god's visitations , has been much aggravated by our neglect to follow so christian an example of humiliation , penitential austerities , contempt of worldly vanities , and delight in solitary retraits to converse with god , as your majesty has afforded ; yet it is now at last to be hoped , that in the present dispersion of catholic pastors , if your majesty could joyn your authority with your example , they both together would prove forcible means to invite all catholics to a serious compunction for their former miscarriages , to an acknowledgment , not only of the justice , but even mercifulness of our lord's visitations , to a willingness in suffring for him , and an expectation of deliverance onely from him . never certainly did our nation , nor perhaps any other afford two catholic courts such perfect schools of piety , in which there are two such mistresses , of most peculiarly christian , though seldom found to be courtly , vertues ; such are humility , mortification , penance , zeal for true religion , equanimity in suffrings , assiduous and unwearied devotions , &c. but in a generation so perverse as this , it must be somwhat more then example , that can render these vertues fashionable abroad also . insensible , vain , tepid , and negligent catholics must see themselvs reprehended by the severity of your majesties looks , and if need be , condemned by your charitable reproofs . bravery and curiosity of attires , precious time mispent in vain conversations and visits , magnificence in entertainments , dissolution in dancing , &c. are justly to be esteem'd crimes unpardonable in those upon whom the hand of our lord lies so heavy . there is no joy now seasonable , nor indeed excusable among catholics , but a joy in suffring for truth and fidelity ; for we never had , till now , so comfortable a refreshment to our afflictions . it is now made evident that ●ur only fault is that which is our greatest glory . we are threatned more severely then ever , whilst we are declared most innocent . in former edicts for execution of laws the principal motives were a care for safety of his majesties person , and the security of the state and government ; withdrawing of subjects from their natural allegiance ; contriving of seditious and treasonable practises ; maintaining of rebellious principles , &c. were formerly our pretended crimes . such was the stile in which the late desolating parliament represented to our most excellent king of glorious memory , a necessity of persecuting and destroying his most faithful catholic subjects , when , god knowes , both his safety and security of the government was at the same time in design , and shortly after in effect , destroy'd only by the representers themselves . but now treason is left out of our charge : nor is there any apprehension of the least danger from us to his majesties person or the state : nay , so publickly and constantly have we asserted the innocence of our religion in the point of fidelity to princes , and such unquestioned proofs thereof have we given by our actions , that the honorable peers of this very parliament were in an immediate preparation of mind to antiquate all the sanguinary laws against us : god almighty give repentance and pardon to the unhappy obstructors of that grace . yet for all our innocence , preachers must be satisfied : they cry aloud their fears of the increase of popery ; when as , for one new-professed catholic , who forsakes their churches , hundreds of all other sects relinquish both their churches and allegiance too . they impute as a crime to us , what all other sects impute to them , and themselves glory in , that we receive our ordinations from rome , that is , that we are not a separated sect , but members of the true catholic church . for if there be indeed a catholic church , ordinations must be derived into particular countries from a common principle and fountain , otherwise the cement of union and subordination is dissolved . but what esteem our former princes had of this pretended crime , will appear by a late example given by his majesty of happy memory ; he had graciously reprieved a priest condemned at the old bayly . hereupon the commons in the late unhappy parliament a. d. 1640. by mr. glyn , request the lords to joyn in a petition to his majesty , to be informed who should dare to be instrumental in retarding justice in the face of the parliament : to which the king by the lord privy seal ( 28 january ) tels them the cause of the reprieve was , because the man was found guilty , as being a priest only ; upon which account neither king iames , nor queen elizabeth ever exercised the penal lawes . notwithstanding , his majesty left the prisoner to their wills , to live or dye , according to their votes ; and thereby he escaped ; for even they had not the courage to say , let this mans blood be upon us and our children . this , madam , is our condition : a condition , though , according to the world's estimation , to be bewailed , yet if we look up to heaven , it is a condition to be triumphed in . now we are sure a reward in heaven expects us , since we are thus recompenced upon earth . it becomes us all therefore , bending the knees of our hearts , to give infinite thanks to our gracious god , since it is now evidently and confessedly for him onely , and the catholic verities revealed by him , for the unity of his mystical body and the religious fear we have of being guilty of schi●m , that we do , and shall hereafter suffer . this , madam , is now our onely crime , and this i am now actually committing , and am so far from being asham'd [ except only of the imperfect manner of executing it ] that i have assumed the boldness to desire and hope your majesties approbation and defence both of the crime and criminal person : it is our whole common faith , delivered by god to the church , that both at court , and all over the nation , has been publickly traduced ; some doctrins have been charged to be contrary to the honour and safety of the state ; others to be doctrins of devils ; all of them to be novelties and usurpations ; our whole catholic church is made to pass for a sect , a separated schismatical congregation ; but from what other church , neither can our accuser tell , nor any one imagin . perhaps the present temper of the times , and delay of an adversary appearing , had encouraged the preacher to think his sermon un-answerable , not for any weight in his proofs , but , because it may be in his power to reply with an instrument sharper than his pen. notwithstanding , as prudence did justly restrain that impetuosity , which zeal to gods truth might move in the hearts of catholics to retort this cartel of defiance , which he has published against his church : so to remain utterly silent after so many reimpressions of that sermon in several forms and after such diligent translations of it into forraign languages , after that incredible avidity with which so many thousand copies of it have been snatched out of the hands of the readers , and from the stalls of the sellers , this would be a confession of our own guilt , and a distrust in our cause , as publick as his challenge and provocation has been , this would be indeed to be ashamed of christ and his truth before men . for this reason , shutting my eyes to all external frights or discouragements , i presumed to undertake an answer to his allegations , hoping that some others of my brethren would do it with greater efficacy and fruit , than i dare promise to this imperfect work : and having this resolution , i took the boldness to inscribe your majesties name in the front , being assured that nothing could be more acceptable , nor a greater refreshment to your most tenderly christian heart , ( which bears an equal share in this our common oppression ) then to see that faith , which you valew above crowns , at least not betray'd , and , truly i confidently hope , demonstrated to remain unprejudiced by any thing alledged in that sermon . with this perswasion , i most humbly beg leave to cast at your majesties feet both my self and work , which , as it was undertaken , not upon my own single judgment , so that it may not appear in public , without your majesties approbation and protection , is the most humble suit and only petition of , 14 may , 1663. madam , your maiesties most humbly devoted servant in our lord , s. c. chap. i. of doctor pierce's sermon in general : what was probably the inward design of it . i cannot forbid my self to wonder that a book so universally esteem'd , so often reprinted , and not only reprinted in our own , but translated into foreign languages , should yet lye open to so many and so plain exceptions : not one period can i find that seems to me extraordinary ; not one instance but has long since been often objected both with closer reason and neater rhetorick : so that now by experience , as well as faith , i see 't is true that the scripture sayes , the race is not to the wise , nor the battle to the strong , nor favour to men of skill , but time and chance happens to them all . 2. and are we not come to a fine passe , when not onely a dozen perhaps of the greatest and subtilest controversies in religion shall be crowded into a short sermon ; but exprest with such vanity and affectation of exotic and abstruse phrases , as if the end of preaching were nothing but to talk an hour of hard things in harder words ? ask the great auditory of lords and ladies , that heard this doctor ( persons of clear and ingenuous apprehensions , who like good sense , though not delivered in greek , who penetrate into the connection of things , though they have not mis-spent their lives in studying words ) ask that illustrious and noble assembly , what they think of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the emperor zeno ; or of the itching to be as old as the iulian period begun before the protoplast . some of them perhaps may have heard of the palladium of the conclave ; but for the embroidery of the theopneust aholiab , or the antiquaryes keimeliah , i believe the ladies at least , were a little puzled on the sudden how to understand them ; yet if those pompous sounds were translated into plain english , not one of them but would easily see the sense , without other dictionary than their own cabinet . 3. as for the doctor 's profession in his epistle dedicatory , that his resolution was , the sermon should never have been expos'd to the world , had not his majesty commanded it . i readily beleeve him ; for a victory is easily and very cheaply got , if a controversie be to be decided by a flourishing speech , confidently pronounc'd by a person in esteem for learning and sincerity , in a place where none must contradict , especially when he protests he has proofs unquestionable for all his assertions . but till those proofs be examin'd , the conquest is only over the hearer's passions not their reason : it may be , ( and i pray god this sermon was not meant so ) a good preparation to usher in the calvinistical zeal for executing severities on innocent persons , who sincerely abhor the crimes deserving such rigors , and the unchristian principles , the fountains of those crimes : that is , on persons against whom the law-givers themselves have publickly professed they never intended those punishments . this kind of iustice he may hope for from his sermon , but a rational conviction will never be the effect of it . 4. truly doctor pierce must not blame us , if we fear he had some such thoughts in his mind , when he preached this sermon , so differing from the style of court-sermons in the times of his majesty of glorious memory , and of the late ( as he styles him ) immortal archbishop . but have we since those dayes deserved such a change in the tongues and pens of any protestants , especially the clergy ? by what crimes ? is it because we have ever since been ready , and are so still , unanimously to sacrifice our blood and fortunes for his majesty , by which also their church hath been maintained and setled against all the irreconcileable enemies both of monarchy and it ? methinks they might forgive us this fault , both for past and future : for we shall fall into it again , if they do not take care , by destroying us , to prevent it . 5. this suspition of ours is much encreased , when we reflect on that bitter passage in his epistle dedicatory , where he sayes , i suppose my discourse , however innocent in it self , will yet be likely to meet with many , not only learned and subtile , but restless enemies ; men of pleasant insinuations , and very plausible snares ; nay such as ar● apt , where they have power , to confute their opponents with fire and faggots . indeed it is possible his sermon may somewhere fall into some such hands : but , unlesse he will renounce all charity , justice and humanity , he must not impute particular mens actions to catholic religion , and , for their faults , expose us to the common hatred and violence . let all the received canons of the church be searched , and if one be found that justifies the shedding of blood simply on the account of religion , he may have some pretence for such an indefinite odious reflexion upon innocent suffering christians . let all the practises of the world be examined , and it will clearly appear , 't is not catholick religion that 's chargable with these excesses , since in so many places both they are not , where it is ; and are , where it is not . and , though for some few of these later ages , the civil magistrates of some countries have exercis'd a greater severity , then an●iently was us'd ; yet now even they have entertain'd a more calm and tractable spirit , and seem to hope by other arguments sufficiently to secure their religion . however , why must our england imitate the rigidest of other nations , against whom , for that very reason , we so loudly exclaim ; rather than the moderate proceedings of those , who are nearer us both in scituation , temper , and interest ? why thus continually be harping upon one string that jarres , and never touch the rest that move in harmony ? 6. our late unhappy wars have made the preacher and many others besides him travellers ; we appeal to their consciences and experience , if they would be pleased to speak , as persons of honour and integrity ; did they in any catholick countries , even rome it self ( though here much spoken against for cruelty ) ever apprehend any danger for their opinions , or refusal to joyn in the exercise of catholick religion ? so they would abstain from publick scandalous affronts to the church , they had freedom not only with all quietnesse to enjoy their consciences , but civilly to justifie their doctrines . all expressions of kindnesse , tendernesse and compassion they received from their catholick opponents , but surely not the least hard usage that might imprint terrour in their minds . 7. thus much may be permitted us to alledge in our own defence upon this occasion gives us by the preacher ; especially , considering we are the onely persons expos'd to the publick hatred and rigour , though we onely , of all the dissenters from the religion of the kingdom , least deserve it : for ; we are no innovators , but professors of the same religion that made this nation christian. a religion , though now too generally decryed , yet in those times confirmed by great miracles , as even protestants acknowledge : a religion , which for almost a thousand years was onely known and professed here . when the reformation entred , though almost all subjects were catholicks , yet seeing the change was introduc'd by a supream authority , no opposition was made to it by any other a●mes , but prayers and tears : whatsoever treasons have been acted by a few wretched persons , even our princes themselves have acquitted the generality of catholicks thereof , and our religion from allowing them . there cannot be framed any formes of professing or acknowledging due supremacy and allegiance to our kings , but we are ready to subscribe them in the same sense that the most learned protestants themselves ordinarily say they intend them . publick atttestations of our fidelity and zeal , in serving and defending our princes , and even the religion of the kingdom ( almost destroy'd by a conspiracy of all other dissenters ) have been made in our behalf , even by some , who now are most sharp against us : yet after all this , of them who are not able to alledge any one of these excuses for themselves some are rendered in a capacity to triumph over our suffrings ; unrepentant traytors are among our accusers ; though it is known , the thing which most enrages them , is our fidelity ; their invectives , how false soever , are believ'd , and they hope to become popular for their attempts to destroy us . chap. ii. eleven novelties charged on catholics . schism imputed to catholics . why necessary the sermon should be refuted by catholics . the answerers protestation of sincerity . 1. the doctours sermon , for as much as concerns us roman catholicks , pretends a double design . first , confidently enough to assert that the doctrines in which we differ are on our parts meer novelties , and that primitive antiquity both of scripture and the four first general councils stands clearly for protestants . secondly , in consequence to this , that not they , but the roman church alone is guilty of schism . 2. as to the first part he exemplyfies in these following points of catholick doctrine , which he saies are novelties , and undertakes to calculate the precise time of their nativity 1. the supremacy of the pope . 2. the infallibility of the church . 3. purgatory . 4. transubstantiation . 5. the sacrifice of the masse . 6. communion under one species . 7. worship of images . 8. the scriptures and publick divine service in an unknown tongue . 9. invocation of saints . 10. the forbidding mariage to persons in holy orders . 11. the allowing divorce for other causes besides fornication . 3. then concerning the other part of his general design about schism , he acknowledges that a real schism there is , but that the cause of it came from the roman church , which made erroneous novelties , new articles of their creed , which errours the reformers were oblig'd in conscience to reject , and reject them they did by warrantable and legal authority : so that though they separated from the then present visible church ▪ yet they ought not to be called schismatics , but that church is to be esteemed schismatical , which caused them to separate . 4. this is in grosse the substance of what in his sermon he alledges against her , that heretofore was this churches mother , and a great proportion of whose kindnesse she still enjoyes , the roman catholick church . now considering with what triumphing applauses this sermon was heard , and with what a general greedinesse thousands of the printed copies have been bought up , even by those that formerly have not been curiously inquisitive after court sermons for any good they meant the preachers . would not protestants themselves in their hearts condemn roman catholicks , if , being confidently perswaded , ( as truly for my part i am ) that there is not so much as one single allegation among all his replenish'd margins that reaches home to a concluding proof of what he pretends to , they should out of a treacherous fearfulnesse be utterly silent , as acknowledging that now they have a prostrated cause . and therefore if it be but onely out of fear of losing their good opinion , somthing must be said by us to acquaint him with his mistakes . 5. now in my remarks upon this sermon , i will follow his own order before summarily set down : and both in the points of doctrine and schism i will select his arguments , adjoining to each point respectively ▪ the quotations or authorities of fathers related to in the margins : and having done this , i will sincerely discover the grounds upon which i think i can demonstrate , that he has neither rationally concluded any of our catholick doctrines to have been novelties , nor freed his own church from the just imputation of schism . 6. and , knowing very well what candor , sincerity and charity almighty god requires from those who undertake his cause , and the cause of his church ; i do here call him as a witnesse upon my soul , that my purpose is studiously to avoid all cavilling distorsions either of texts of scriptures , or the holy fathers , and much more those falsly called pia● fraudes , corruptions of either : and both in my answers and objections , i will alledge nothing but what i am perswaded is both pertinent and efficacious to conclude that for which it is produced , that is , i will bring nothing as a proof , which i for the present think can be answered . 7. i am inform'd that he in his sermon made the like protestation . if he did , i am very glad for his own sake , that he forbore to print , what he then spoke : because though i must not charge him with wilful sincerity , yet i believe he will find by this short paper , that he did neglect to make use of his best judgement and caution , which certainly , if ever , was most requisite , in a cause so important , especially it being to be debated by one that professed to supply the place of god himself in his own house , and who spoke to no meaner person than the king , god's own vice●erent . 8. but whether the preacher in his sermon , the subject whereof was nothing but controversies , and such as his text neither invited , much lesse compelled ●im to undertake , or however to debate them with such invectives and exulcerating digressions whether i say , herein he expressed that respect and duty he owed his majesty , that is , whether such a distemper'd sermon was conformable to the injunctions touching preaching , which his majesty had lately commanded my lord archbishop to communicate to the clergy , i leave to the preachers own conscience . if he resolved to transgresse those orders so becomming a prince who lov'd the peace of his kingdoms , and still feels so much by their disunions in opinions : yet in reason he might have abstained from letting the court and kingdom see , that he had the courage to disobey the king to his own face : the university-●ulpit , or some city congregations , where such behaviour is in fashion , might well enough have contented him . chap. iii. bishop jewel's challenge imitated by doctor pierce . primitive reformers acknowledge antiquity to stand for catholics . the doctor 's notion of beginning : he is obliged thereto by an act of parliament , 5 eliz. five questions proposed touching that notion . 1. vvhat ground or motive the preacher had to renew the vain brag of bishop iewel , derided by his adversaries , and condemned by his brethren , it will be lesse difficult for us to imagin , than for himself sincerely to acknowledge . however , that , both that bishop and he are singular in this matter of challenging the concurrence of antiquity for themselves , and imputing novelty to the catholic church , we have a cloud of witnesses among the first reformers , both in grosse and by retayl , through all the particular points by him mentioned . 2. in general let him consider what melancthon writes : presently from the beginning of the church , the antient fathers obscured the doctrine concerning the justice of faith , encreased ceremonies and devised peculiar worships . in like manner peter martyr affirms , that in the church errours did beg in immediately after the apostles times : and that presently after their age men began to decline from the word of god : and therefore so long as we insist upon councils and fathers , we shall alwayes be conversant in the same errours . in so much as beza had the arrogance to write thus in an epistle : i have said more than once , and i suppose not without reason that comparing the antient times of the church , even those immediately succeeding the apostles with ours , they had better consciences , but lesse knowledge : on the contrary , we have more knowledge , but lesse conscience . this is my iudgement , &c. these are esteem'd as learned writers as the reformation had ; they spent their lives in reading and examining antiquity , and were as willing to make it speak on their sides , as the preacher was : but as ill consciences as they had , they were convinced and forced publickly to confess that the fathers were against them , and focus . and in particular opposition to his claim of antiquity , ( like bishop iewels for the first six centuries ) doctor fulk is so far from concurring with him or bishop iewel , that he is so choleric at the suspition of such a charge , that he addresses himself to his adversary in this civil language ; i answer , saies he , if he charge me with confessing the continuing of the church in incorruption for six hundred years next after christ , he lyeth in his heart . 3. one passage there is of that famous andreas duditius , which truly i cannot read without extream compassion and astonishment at the dreadful judgment of god , and it may do doctor pierce much good , if he sadly reflect on it . many years he had lived in great esteem for learning and prudence , a catholick bishop of petscben in hungary , called quinque ecclesiae ; present he was at the frameing the decrees of the council of trent : but at last falling in love with a maid of honour in the queen of hungaries court , to marry her , he quitted both his bishoprick and religion . this poor man in his declining age could not abstain from confessing in a letter to beza his unsatisfaction in his new religion , vainly hoping some either cordial or opiate for his distressed conscience , from one as deeply plunged , and by the very same motives engaged in the same change . i pray observe his words : [ si veritas est , saies he , quam veteres patres , &c. ] if that be truth which the antient fathers , by mutual consent have professed , it will entirely stand on the papists side : for if heretofore any controversies out of a beat of disputation aros● between the learned among them , an end was presently imposed thereto by decrees of councils or even of the pope alone . but what strange people have we among us ? they are alwaies wandring , toss'd with every wind of doctrine , and being hurried into the main deep , they are carried sometimes this way , sometimes another . if you would inform your self what their iudgment to day is touching religion , you may perhaps come to know it : but what it will be to morrow on the same argument , neither themselves nor you can certainly affirm : thus duditius . and what cordial against this scrupulous melancholly does beza his good friend afford him ? take it from himself : [ scio speciosum esse venerandae velustatis nomen , &c. ] i know the name of venerable antiquity is very specious : but whence shall we fetch the beginning of that title , but from the prophets and apostles ? for , as for writers that come after them , if we will take their own advice , we will believe them on no other terms but as far as they shall evidently make good what they deliver , out of the holy scriptures : that is in effect , have but the christian modesty and humility to prefer your own sense of scriptures before all the fathers and councils of gods church , and then nothing , they say , need to trouble you : antiquity , venerable antiquity will be on your side : you may confidently say of all your adversaries doctrins , from the beginning it was not so . 4. many other confessions of the like nature might be added : but for brevity-sake i will content my self with onely one more , and that is ( as it seems to me ) a secret acknowledgement of the church of england in her publick liturgy , directly contrary to the preachers pretension and applications of his text , by which she , after a sort , imputes novelty to her self , and confesses the roman to be that church which was from the beginning . in the order for morning-prayer there are these versicles and responds . v. o. lord save the king. r. and mercifully hear us when we call upon thee . v. endue thy ministers with righteousness . r. and make thy chosen people joyfull . v. o lord save thy people . r. and bless thine inheritance . then follows a versicle for peace . now these , as almost all the other prayers , are mafestly translated out of the roman office. but that which ought to be observed , is , that in the roman office there is a versicle and respond immediately following these , and going before the versicle for peace , which the english church has studiously left out ; and that is this , v. be mindfull of thy congregation ( o lord. ) r. which thou didst possess from the beginning . now the ground why this special versicle or prayer for the church was left out , is not so mysterious , but it may be very probably guess'd at . the first reformers did not love to put god in mind of that church which was from the beginning : or rather they were desirous the people should forget the church which was from the beginning : they had rather no prayers at all should be made for the church , than for one that was from the beginning , because apparently that could not be the reformed church of england , whose beginning themselves saw . 5. notwithstanding such plain confessions of these pillars of reformation , yet the doctor confidently stands ( with a little contraction and abatement ) to bishop iewel 's challenge : he indeed mentions 27. points , of which 22. are about circumstantial matters touching the eucharist , and two more of them [ viz. 1. that ignorance is the mother and cause of true devotion and obedience . 2. and that the lay-people ( if he speaks of them in general ) are forbidden to read the word of god in their own tongue , ] are calumnies . the other are three indeed of the preacher's points , viz. 1. supremacy of the pope . 2. worship of images . 3. common-prayers in a strange tongue , though the only fault he can find in this last , is , that the later church hath adhered too close to antiquity ; that the hath not varied in the language of her devotions from her predecessors ; and , after a. d. 600. continued to say her prayers in the same language she did before . but then this bishop , ( as being somewhat better experienc'd in antiquity than doctor pierce ) had not the confidence in this his catalogue to reckon as novelties either the infallability of the church , invocation of saints , purgatory , or prayer for the dead , celibacy of the clergy , or sacrifice of the mass. so much more courage had the preacher than even bishop iewel himself . well , between both , all antiquity is for them , and nothing but novelty on our side . no doubt but his admiring and believing hearers assured themselves that some never-before-examined witnesses , some hitherto unknown or un-observed records had been found out by their learned and confident preacher , to justifie their deserted claim of antiquity , i mean by way of aggression , and not simple defence . but when the sermon is publish'd , nothing appears in the text or margins , but assertions and quotations an hundred times before produced , and as often silenced , many of which too ( as he explains them ) have no regard to the publick received doctrin of the catholic church , but particular opinions of some catholic divines , as much disputed against by other catholics as by protestants . 6. however to qualifie a little the admiration that many protestants have of their new champion , or hyperaspista , as he calls it , somthing must be said thi● hundred and one time to old allegations and new mistakes . and first , whereas in all points now in debate between us , he so often repeats , from the beginning it was not so ; he did very well to fix a notion and conception of this word beginning , or a distinct measure of time after which only whatever doctrins are broached , ought in his opinion , to be esteemed novelties ; novelties of so great importance , as to justifie a separation from the external communion of all churches both eastern and western . and that is the time of the apostles , and so downward , till the fourth general council inclusively : this he has don not out of a voluntary liberality , but because an act of parliament obliges him , wherein it is said : that such persons , ( laicks or ecclesiasticks ) to whom queen elizabeth shall , by letters patents under the great seal of england , give authority to execute any iurisdiction spiritual , or to correct any errors , heresies , schisms , &c , shall not in any wise have authority to adjudge any matter or caus to be heresy , but only such as heretofore have been determined to be heresy by the authority of the canonical scriptures , or by the first four general councils , or any of them , or by any other general council , wherein the same was declared heres● by the express and plain words of the said can●nical scriptures , or such as hereafter shall be judged to be heresy by the high court of parliament with the assent of the clergy in their convocation . 7. by this proviso it appears , that , though in words the doctor is more liberal to us than the presbyterians and other sects , who will call all things novelties , which they think are not in express scripture , yet the law would have allow'd him a greater extent , for the might have enlarg'd the time beyond the four first general councils to any succeding council , that ( in the opinion of commissioners ) judged heresy by express scripture , or to future acts of parliament , judging after the same manner : but we are content with , and thank him for his allowance . 8. only he must give us leave to propound a few questions upon this occasion ; as first , does he submit only to the four first general councils , because they had an authority inherent in them obliging him thereto ? or because he judged their decisions conformable to god's express word ? if the former , then he must inform us , why only four councils have such authority , which it seems the church lost as soon as the fathers at chalcedon rose ? if the later , then he deludes us , and with presbyterians , independents , quakers , &c. makes scripture alone in effect th rule of reformation , and protestants only the interpreters of that rule : because the statute tyes no further to any general council , than as that council is believ'd to proceed according to express scripture : which , whether it does or no , who must be judge , doctor pierce ? to answer this question well will be a great master-piece : i am sure his late immortal archbishop found it a task too hard for himself , as shall be seen before we part : too hard i say to resolve so , that any rational man can be satisfied with . 9. a second question is , whether to judge of heresy , that is to determin authoritatively what is heresy , and what is conformable to scripture , be not an act of iurisdiction parely spiritual and pastoral ? ( though it seems to reside notwithstanding sometimes in lay-commissioners , but ordinarily in the parliament ) and this not being possible to be denyed , then he must be further ask'd , since by one of the 39. articles it is affirmed , that general councils may and have err'd , whether the english judge of heresy ( be it the king , as in the days of henry the 8th and edw. the 6th . or the parliament also , as in queen elizabeths ) be infallible or no ? if he acknowledge it infallible , he must resolve us , whether the supreme temporal authority , with the assent of the clergy be infalli●le only in england , or in other countrys also as holland , swedland ? &c. if the former , he must shew what promises our lord has made to england alone . if the later , then it will follow that that may , and certainly will be heresy and contrary to scripture in england , which england it self confesses is not heresy beyond sea. but if no such authority be indeed infallible , then it will follow , that decisions , made by it , do not oblige in conscience : and by consequence in his opinion there is no spiritual authority on earth that does so , i mean oblige , not only to non-contradiction , but to internal assent . the consequences of which position he may imagin , and shal see anon . 10. a third question is , whether since presbyterians and independents , and all such reformed churches , following the heresy of aerius , do directly oppose the order of bishops and their iurisdiction , ( that is , the whole frame of god's church ) manifestly asserted in the four first general councils , and as is here affirmed , of divine right by expresse scripture ; whether , i say , they be not , according to this rule formal heretics , or however schismatics ; since to alter this frame , they relinquish'd both this church and ours ? and especally for their denying the supream ecclesiastical , or spiritual authority , to be in temporal governors , which yet the statute tells us , in effect , is the fundamental corner-stone of the english church ? if all this do not render them heretics , or at least in the highest degree schismatics , what will become of this act of parliament , and his primitive rule of reformation ? if they be such , what will become of the english church , which gives to heretics and schismatics the right-hand of fellowship , and acknowledges them holychristian● reformed congregations ? and on the other side , since , notwithstanding the extremity of passion against catholics , if was never yet pronounced that roman catholics are heretics , nor possibly could by their own rule and measute ; how comes it to passe that we alone are punish'd with death as heretics , and this meerly for religion since we both often have justified and still are ready to justifie our principles of fidelity and peaceableness beyond all exception ; which yet no other diffenters from this church , though real heretics and schismatics , either have , or i fear will do ? 10. a fourth question shall be , how can the preacher answer to god for abusing scripture , and mis-applying , through the whole sermon , his text , to the prejudice of his church ? he pretends that our saviour's words are to be esteem'd the pattern , or primitive rule of reformation , and consequently , as our lord demonstrated pharasaical divorces to be illegal , because ab initio non fuit sic : so the d●ctor pretends to prove the justice and legality of the english reformation , because , by the like examinat●on , he finds that roman doctrins are 〈◊〉 and that 〈◊〉 initio non fuit sic ; therefore they , as jewish divorces , are 〈◊〉 abolished , and that only to be confirmed , which god instituted from the beginning . but he little considers that our saviours saying , it was not so , signifies , it was directly contray to so , as if he said , you allow divorces , ob quamcunque causam , in manifest opposition to god's ordinance from the beginning , who said , whomsoever god hath joyn'd , let no man put asunder : this is therefore a novelty necessary to be reform'd . now , if the preacher would have made use of this , indeed , perfect primive rule of refermation , he by his text was obliged to have produced from the beginning , that is either in scriptures , or in the fathers within the four first general councils , some expresse authorities and decisions directly contrary to roman doctrines , which he calls novelties : he ought to have quoted out of holy scriptures , or some councils or consent of fathers , such sayings as these : 1. st. peter and his successors never bad nor ought to have any supremacy of iurisdiction . 2. the whole church is a fallible guide , not to be relyed upon against our private sence of god's word . 3. there is no state after death in which souls may find refreshment by the prayers of the living . 4. the body of christ is not substantially present on the altar . 5. there is no true christian sacrifice 6. both elements are essential to the sacrament . 7. all respect to images is forbidden . 8. invocation of sains is unlawful . 9. the scriptures must be given into all mens hands , without any certain guide to interpret them . 10. prayers not in a vulgar tongue , though interpreted , are abominable . 11. to forbid the use of mariage to priests is a doctrine of devils . 12. to separate bed and board among maried persons , though when , without danger of their lives , they cannot live together , is a practice condemn'd by our lord. and after all , 13. to break the visible unity of god's church , for doctrines and practises not in themselves causing damnation , but onely said to be false , is the duty of every good christian. such sayings as these had been to some purpose , they would have been pertinent to his text ; but no such appear . on the contrary , it serves his turn to say again and again , from the beginning it was not so : this is the burthen of his song : if he can shew that , because this is the first time , we hear or read such a doctrine ( mentioned in any ecclesiastical writer ) as origen , tertullian , &c. therefore it is a novelty , it was never in the church before , the saies somthing to the purpose . but , let me ask him , was there no doctrine at all in the church before it was written ? or was there no doctrine in the church but what was written ? and again , is all that 's written in any age still extant , and come to our hands ? or do those fathers , who first writ it , say , that they , or their times first introduc'd it ? no : on the contrary , they expressly declaim against innovations , noveltie is their prescription against all heresies ; so that for them to bring into the church any doctrines not heard of , or not received before , had been to profess themselves hereticks , and there would not have wanted other fathers that would have condemned such innovations : which yet was never done to origen or tertullian , &c , for any doctrines mentioned by the preacher : whereas for other errors they were sufficiently proscribed . from whence 't is evident , that , through the whole sermon there is a palpable misapplication of the text , and that the preacher has been injurious to our saviour , in making his just condemnation of the pharisees , a warrant for him unjustly to condemn his church . indeed , in all matters left indifferent , and no way commanded from the beginning , nor contrary to any divine revelation , the church of later times may vary , as she thinks sit , either from the practice , or injunctions of the former : for example , supposing celibacy of the clergy , ( the 7th , point the doctor instances in ) had not been practised or mentioned from the beginning ; yet , if god had not commanded the contrary , and the thing in it self be feasible ( of which more anon ) the church of a later age may lawfully enjoyn it : the rule therefore holds only for matters of faith and divine revelation . in which 't is true , that the later times may not vary from the former ; but yet , neither doth the rule hold in these , as to the express terms of every proposition that is matter of faith , but only as to the sense and substance . it is not necessary that ab initio , god the son should be declared in expresse terms consubstantial with the father , which was first put into the christians ●reed by the council of nice : but only that that doctrine can be shewed ab initio , which is identified in sense with this : nor can i think the doctor , upon second considerations , will offer to gainsay so plain a truth . but it is now time to examin the particular p●ints which he charges on the church as novelties , and of each of which be saies as unwarrantably , as our lord , against the iewish innovations said justly , from the beginning it was not so . chap. iv. the sum of dr. pierce's discourse against the pope's supremacy enervated by himself . the churches doctrin touching that supremacy . the text , mark 10. 42. cleared . 1. in the doctor 's catalogue of roman novelties , the first is , the supremacy of the pope : concerning which , he tells his majestie , he has spoken most at large , because it is a point wherein the honour and safety of his dominions are most concern'd ; and because , by bellarmin 's assertion , it is the chief , if not onely hirge on which does hang the whole stresse of the papal fabrick . this universal superintendency or supremacy of the pope ( saies he ) hath been a visible usurpation ever since boniface the 3d. to whom it was sold by the most execrable phocas , the greatest villain in the world , except cromwel and pontius pilate , not out of reverence to the pope , but in displeasure to cyriacus , patriark of constantinople , &c. 2 , in contradiction to this usurpation , he adds , but from the beginning it was not so . for we find in scripture the apostles were equally foundations of the wall of god's city , &c. they were all as st. cyprian saies , pari consortio praediti & honoris , & potestatis : and s. hierom is as expresse : and sure paul , who withstood peter to his face , was equal to him at the least . and for any one bishop to affect over his brethren a supremacy of power and iurisdiction is a most impudent opposition both to the letter and sense of our saviour's precept , mark 10. 42 , 43 , 44. they that rule over the gentiles exercise lordship over them , &c. but so shall it not be among you , but whosoever , &c. nay , by the canons of the two first general councils , every patriark and bishop is appointed to be chief in his proper diocesse , as the bishop of rome is the chief in his . and a strict injunction is laid on all , the bishop of rome not excepted , that they presume not to meddle in any diocesse but their own . and the chief primacies of order were granted to rome and constantinople , not for having been the sees of such and such an apostle , but for being the two sea●s of the two great empires : witnesse the famous canon of the general council of chalcedon , &c. nay , the immediate predecess●r of boniface the third , pope gregory the great , calls the ti●le of universal bishop , a wicked , prophane , and blasphemous title , importing that the times of antichrist were at hand , &c. further adding , that if any one bishop were universal , there would by consequence be a failing of the universal , church , upon the failing of such a bishop : which is an argument ad homines , not easily to be answer'd , whatsoever infirmity it may labour with in its self , &c. and upon that occasion he makes an excursion about the pope's infallibility , and his falling into heresie , &c. nothing to the point . lastly , he concludes , that whosoever shall read at large the many liberties of the gallican church , and the published confessions of popish writers for more then a thousand years together , touching the papal vsurpations , and right of kings , he will not deny that the supremacy of the pope is but a prosperous vsurpation . 3. this is the substance of his discourse upon this point of novelty , the supremacy of the pope . in answering which he must permit me , yet without any prejudice to the cause , yea rather for a better clearing of it , not to bind my self to his order : assuring him , in the mean time , that i will not purposely omit any thing material , either in his reasoning or quotations . 1. and first in general , he must give me leave to tell him , that by the conclusion of the foregoing discourse , he has entirely enervated all that went before . for by arguing and asserting , that the gallican liberties and popish writings against papal vsurpations do demonstrate that the supremacy of the pope 〈◊〉 but a prosperous vsurpation : he clearly shows that his fore-mentioned reasons do not touch the catholic cause at all : he acknowledges those writers to have been roman catholics : none can deny the french church to be a member of the roman catholic church , acknowledged for such by the pope himself , and professing a subjection to him , as to the supream spiritual pastor of god's church : therefore it is evident that what they deny to the pope , is not simply his supremacy in spiritual matters , ( which is all that will be required of protestants ) but an extending of that supremacy beyond what they conceive the received ecclesiastical canons do warrant : ( and this the english may as well be permitted to do as the french. ) 4. to the end therefore he may no longer mistake this so important an argument , i will clearly set down the churches doctrine concerning this matter . this doctrine is contained in that profession of faith compiled by pius 4. and extracted out of the council of trent . i believe that the pope is the successor of st. peter , and vicar of iesus christ on earth : i acknowledg the holy catholic , apostolic and roman church , as the mother and mistress of all other churches . and more largely in the decree , with great circumspection framed in the council of florence , and subscribed by the greeks . we do define that the holy apostolic see and bishop of rome does enjoy a supremacy through the whole world ; and that the same bishop of rome is the successor of st. peter , prince of the apostles , the true vicar of iesus christ , the head of the vniversal church ; the father and teacher of all christians ; and that in the person of st. peter he hath received from our lord iesus christ full power to feed , rule and govern the whole church in such manner as is express'd in the acts of oecuminical councils and the holy canons . this is the decision of the council of florence : the substance of the doctrine of which decree , ( by which the pope , as successor of st. peter , is acknowledg'd to have a jurisdiction over all christians , to be regulated by the ecclesiastical canons ) is so received even in france , notwithstanding all the gallican liberties , that whoever denies it , will not be esteem'd a catholic . see what cardinal palavicino writes touching the cardinal of lorrain and his french bishops proceedings about this point in the council of trent . 5. this jurisdiction the preacher positively denies both to the pope and st. peter , affirming it to be an impudent opposition both to the letter and sense of our saviours forecited precept , mark 10. but i heartily with dr. pierce would look well on this passage of the gospel once more , and ask his own reason , though he should not be able to exclude all the fumes of passion from it ; is ecclesiastical authority in superiors , and subordination of inferiors forbidden in this text ? will one that calls himself a regular son of the church of england , by vertue of this text pronounce the sentence of decapitation ( according to his own pleasant expression ) upon his own church , whosoever passes for the head of it , whether his majesty , or my lord of canterbury ? on the contrary , i dare pronounce that ( not the affecting , but ) lawful exercising a supremacy of power and iurisdiction is so far from being an impudent opposition to this precept , that it is establish'd by it . for in this very text expresse mention is made of some that are great , yea some that are the chiefest . and if he would have adjoyn'd the next verse to his quotation , he would have published to the most ignorant of his hearers of readers his manifest abusing this passage of scripture : our saviour immediately adding , for even the son of man came not to be ministred unto , but to minister . surely he will not deny , but that our saviour had authority , yea a supremacy of iurisdiction over the church , and only here proposes himself as a pattern of humility to be imitated by his apostles and their successors . and what were the apostles ? church governors without question . how then are they to imitate their supream governor ? in renouncing superiority ? did he himself do so ? by no means . but as he did not glorifie himself to be an high priest : but he that said unto him thou art a priest forever after the order of melchisedech : and being high priest he did not forget his meeknesse and humility , consistent very well with the vigour of spiritual jurisdiction : in like manner his apostles , ( and all that succeed him ) are commanded not to affect superiority , and when they are lawfully invested with it , not to exercise it with such an arrogant pride as heathen princes usually do , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . conc. eph. 1. can. 8. they must neither 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , nor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; neither ambitiously seek superiority ; nor after a secular manner , lord it over the flock of christ. 6. and now let the doctor say where is the impudent opposition of supremacy and iurisdiction both to the letter and sense of our saviours precept ? such an argument as this , being magisterially and confidently pronounc'd , might for half an hour serve his present turn in the pulpit : but i wonder he could have the confidence to expose it to examination in print . 't is time we come a little closer to examine this his first great novelty . chap. v. the doctor obliged to acknowledge submission due to the pope's authority , as exercised during the four general councils . of the title of universal bishop . it is not generally admitted at this day . 1. his main position in his forecited discourse on this argument is : that a supremacy of iurisdiction challenged and exercised by the pope , as successor of st. peter , is a visible usurpation ever since boniface the third , to whom it was sold by the tyrant phocas : that is , it began about the year 606. never before that time having been acknowledged in god's church . to prove this , all the foregoing reasons and allegations are produced by him : from this usurpe● authority , his english church ( forsooth ) hath made a secession , as he demurely phrases it , and not from any authority ( if any were ) exercised by former popes , especially during the times of the four first general councils . a primacy of order he is content to allow him , but by no means a supremacy of iurisdiction . 2. whatsoever authority then the predecessors of pope boniface the third by consent of other churches enjoy'd , especially till the end of the fourth general council , he must grant is no usurpation , and therefore a legal rightful authority , from which , without a formal schism , they could not withdraw themselves . he will not surely say with one of their learned bishops , that they take from the pope his lawful christian authority , and give that ( only ) to the king , not his unlawful and antichristian . so that the controversy between us is reduced to this precise point , whether before boniface the third's time the pope enjoyed a supreme iurisdiction over the catholic church . this he denies . on the contrary i here engage my self not only to prove he had it , but moreover , that not the least degree or iota of iurisdiction will be impos'd on them to acknowledge , for enjoying the communion of the catholic church more than the very same that pope boniface 's predecessors within the times of the four first general councils confessedly exercised . i may adde , that the new usurped title , ( as he says ) sold to him by phocas , did not give him , neither did he pretend to by it , any more authority than himself and his predecessors formerly enjoy'd . and this is i be able to make good , then not all the water in the sea will be able to wash off his churches schism by his own confession . 3. before i shew what supremacy the predecessor's of boniface the third exercised in the church , it will be convenient to enquire into the bargain that , he says , boniface made with phoca● ; what he gain'd by it ; and why his predecessors st. gregory the great , and p●lagius refused it . the patriark of constantinople , iohn , out of an humor of lightness and vanity , proper to the grecians , assumed the title of [ episcopus universalis , or o●cumenicus ] vniversal bishop , or bishop of the whole world : a title that the council of chalcedon had in an epistle given to pope leo , but which his successors like't not . certain it is that iohn intended little more by it , but to be a distinction of honor and preference above the other eastern patriarks : for whilst he took that title , he still acknowledg'd the pope's superiority , not only of place , but authority over him . but being bishop in a city , wherein the emperor of the world resided , he thought it not unbecomming him to be called the bishop of the world , as the emperor was the governor . perhaps indeed his successors , ( if this ambition had been either approv'd , or but conn●v'd at by the west ) would have endeavour'd to make it not a meer empty title , but would have invaded an authority , which the title might seem to warrant . hereupon pope pelagius and after him pope gregory the great did vehemently resist this foolish ambition of iohn , though the emperor himself , to gain a dignity to his own city , favor'd it in him . 4. now the arguments that these two good popes made use of against him , did not so much combate iohns present intention ( though his meer vain-glory and affectation of novelty deserved to be repressed ) as the probable consequences of such a title , which might argue , that besides himself there were no bishops in the church : for if he were the vniversal bishop , and the whole world his diocess , since by the canons there can be but one bishop in a place , it would follow that all others were only bishops in name , and by their character had no other office but as his substitutes depending on his will , whereas the apostles received their office and authority immediately from our lord himself : and so their successors , the bishops , would never acknowledge a receiving their episcopal character and right of iurisdiction from any but christ himself . for , as in other sacraments , whoever administers baptism , whether an apostle or an heretic , baptismus solius christiest , says saint augustin : and again , peter and iohn ( sayth he ) pray'd that the holy ghost might come on those upon whom they imposed their hands , they did not give the holy ghost ( acts 8. ) they , as his substitutes apply the outward element , but the inward vertue of the sacrament is administred only by our lord himself . and as a subject that receives ●n office of iurisdiction from the king , will not esteem he derives that authority from the person , who presents him the letters patents , or invests him ceremoniously in the office , but only the king. so though a particular bishop be ordained by a metropolitan , a primat , a patriarc , or by the pope himself , and iurisdiction given him , they indeed are the ministers of christ to convey his characters and authority , they assign him the place in which he is to exercise that authority , but the inherent authority it self christ only gives him . 5. upon these grounds pope pelagius thus argues . [ vniversalitatis quoque nomen , &c. ] do not give heed to the name of vniversality that john of constantinople hath unlawfully usurped , &c. for none of the patritriarks did ever make use of so profane a title : because if [ the bishop of rome ] the supreme patriark be call'd an universal patriark , the title would be taken away from the rest . but god forbid this should happen , &c. it therefore john be permitted to take this title , the honor of all patriarks is deny'd , and probably he , who is called vniv●rsal , will perish in his error , and there will not be found one bishop in the state of truth . the very same arguments he knows st. gregory makes use of in several epistles both to the emperor , to iohn himself , and others , which being already produc'd by him need not be repeated . yet for all this neither pelagius nor st. gregory , notwithstanding their detesting this title , did therefore quit their right to the vniversal pastorship of the church , and their iurisdiction over all both bishops and patriarks too : nay they assert it in these very epistles , wherein they are most sharp against that title , as shall be shew'd . 6. the reason of this , 't is manifest , the preacher does not understand : therefore let him not disdain to be inform'd . the like order that is observ'd in the church of england , he may conceive , is observed in the catholic church : that is , that the same person may be both a bishop , an archbishop , and a primat ; i will add also the supreme head of the church , as the archbishop of canterbury is among ecc●esiasticks : [ for as for his majestys supremacy in ecclesiastical affairs , it is not in this place to be treated of . ] now my lord of canterbury is just like other bishops , merely a bishop in his diocese of canterbury : he is likewise a metropolitan in his province to visit all bishops in it , but he is not a bishop in the other dioceses subject to him ; for in them none have episcopal right but only the respective bishops themselves , which are not removeable by him , unlesse they incur crimes that by the canons deserve it . lastly , he is a primat over both provinces , that is , the whole nation , yet without prejudice to the other metropolitan , in whose office of visitation and ordinations he cannot interpose ; though he have a power to summon him to a national council , &c. and in this regard he may be stiled the vniversal pastor of england , and , by being so , makes the church of england to be one national church , which otherwise would have two episcopal heads . yet if any one should stile ▪ him the vniversal bishop of england , it would not be endured , because he can exercise functions properly episcopal in no other province or diocese but his own . by considering this well , the doctor may more clearly apprehend how matters stand in the catholic church . 7. for , though this title of vniversal bishop taken in some sense , might draw after it such ill consequences , yet being apply'd to the supreme pastor of god's church , it might innocently signifie no more but such a general superintendency , as the scriptures allow to st. peter , and the canons of the church also have acknowledged due to his successors , and with such an innocent meaning ( as this title was used long before in the 3d. act of the council of chalcedon , without any contradiction of the same council to pope leo ) boniface the third did accept it from phocas : yet having done so , it seems to me apparent that he neither exercised nor challenged the least access of iurisdiction by it more than himself and his predecessors had enjoy'd . and of this the doctor himself shall be judge . if he can find any proof to the contrary , let him produce it , and i will immediately recall what i have said . 't is true , as appears in the history of the council of trent , written by the illustrious and learned cardinal palavicino ; that there was in that council an earnest and constant opposition made by the french prelates against naming the pope , bishop of the vniversal church , who , in conclusion , absolutely gained the silencing of that title : but this happened not because these denied to the pope an universal superintendency over the whole church , or over all churches taken disjunctively , for this they willingly acknowledged ; but they opposed this title only as the universal church might be taken in a collective sense , that is to say , as united in a general council , whereby a right of superiority over a general council may seem to be determin'd to the prejudice of the decisions of the councils of constance and basil , which in this matter they allowed . chap. iv. the absolute necessity of a supreme pastor in the church . supremacy of iurisdiction exercised by pope boniface the third his predecessors , viz. st. gregory , p. pelagius , p. felix , p. gelasius , p. leo. the 28th , canon of chalcedon illegal . of the 2d . canon of the first council of constantinople . 1. being now to demonstrate ( more than a primacy of order ) a primacy of iurisdiction in the predecessors of boniface the third , extending it self to all christians , all particular prelates and churches : yet a supremacy not unlimited , ( for then general councils , would be useless ) but sufficient to preserve unity in the church : i will first , to make it appear reasonable , declare the ground of the necessity of it , which in brief is , as the preacher will find by the succeeding testimonies of the fathers ; because , since general councils ( the only absolute supreme authority ecclesiastical ) either for want of agreement among princes , or by the inconvenience of the long absence of prelates , or great expences , &c. can very seldom be summon'd , it would be impossible , without an ordinary , constant , standing supreme authority in the church , to prevent schisms , that is , it is impossible the church should subsist . 2. for what effect against schism can be expected from a meer primacy of order , a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a sitting at the upper end of the table , a priviledge to speak first , or to collect votes ? therefore for a protestant to deny a primacy of iurisdiction to be necessary to conserve unity , as in a national church , so in the vniversal , is to give up his own cause to the presbyterians . for all the subtilty of human wit , without such a concession , can never answer the arguing thus , if ( according to the doctrin of the fathers ) there be a nec●ssity of setting up one bishop ●ver many fresbyters for preventing schism : there is ( say they ) as great a necessity of setting up one archbishop ●ver many bishops , and one patriark over many arch-bishops , and one pope over all ; unlesse men will imagin that there is a danger of schism only among presbyters , and not among bishops , arch-bishops , &c. which is contrary to reason , truth , history , and experience . but what expedient now , without such a primacy of iurisdiction , can the presbyterians find out against the mischief of schism ? truly no other , but by rejecting that article of the creed in which we professe the ( certainly visible ) unity of the catholic church , that is , by believing that schism i● no such ill thing , as that much care needs be used to prevent it . but surely english protestants , not having blotted out of their creed that article , since they acknowledge the constituting one bishop necessary to the unity of a diocesse &c. will find great difficulty to shew a reason why one governor is not as necessary to the ●nity of the whole church , to which only both unity and indefectibility is promised , and without which , the unity of provinces or dioceses are but factions . 3. certain it is , that the antient fathers thought so , as shall be shewed . and because new opinions arising do naturally cause debates and contentions , from what causes soever they flow , and contentions are apt to generate schisms , since likewise ecclesiastical lawes are made to be observed every where , if any particular church were independent of the whole , there could be no remedy against divisions ; hence it is , that the holy fathers do assert the necessity of a supream authority , and assign thereto these acts. 1. either to determine , or at least silence disputes about opinions . 2. in those which are called majores causae , ( as wrongful depositions of bishops , &c. ) either by appeals or consultations to restore the persons wrong'd , and punish the wrong-doers . 3. to take care that discipline , establish'd by received canons , be every where observ'd . 4. to judge when there is a necessity of convening in general councils , and thereupon to summon all bishops , and , as far as the authority of a common spiritual father may extend , to oblige princes to permit their respective bishops to meet . 4. these things thus premised , now follow the proofs demonstrating , that , before boniface the thirds time , suck like acts of a supream authority were practised by his predecessors , and submitted to generally in the church . i must not write a volume , therefore i will select a few examples in all ages , which will at least recompence the doctors anti-quotations , and when he shall require it , many , many more shall be added . 5. to proceed therefore ascendendo ; st. gregory the great , predecessor of boniface the third , though he would not admit an vniversal episcopacy , yet at the same time he challenged and exercised an vniversal superintendency : hence , saies he , t is notorious that the see apostolic by divine institution is preferr'd before all churches . and again more fully ; the care of the church was committed to the holy apostle , and prince of the apostles , st. peter : the care and principality of the vniversal church was committed to him , and yet he is not called the vniversal apostle . again , writing to the bishop of syracusa , if any fault be found in any bishops , i know no bishop that is not subject to the see apostolic : but when no fault exacts it , we are all , in regard of humility , equal . and this subjection , saies he elsewhere , both our most religious lord the emperor , and our brother ( john ) bishop of the same city do frequently protest . and in an epistle to natalis , bishop of salona , if , saith he , any of the four patriarks had committed such an act , so great a disobedience would not have passed without great scandal . moreover in another epistle he declares how he had reversed the judgment of the church of constaninople against a priest of chalcedon , where he saies , dost not thou know that in the cause of john the priest against our brother and collegue , john of constantinople , he , according to the canons , had recourse to the see apostolic , and that the cause was determined by our sentence ? a world of like examples more may be added : and in these a primacy of iurisdiction is manifest , which therefore by his own confession is no vsurpation . 6. in the next place the immediate predecessor of st. gregory , pope pelagius the second , in the very same epistle , in which he condemns the presumptuous title of vniversal bishop , assumed by iohn of constantinople , hath this passage , writing to the eastern bishops , the apostolic see is inform'd that john bishop of constantinople out of this his presumption hath convoked you to a synod , whereas the authority of assembling general synods is by a special priviledge deliver'd to the apostolic see of st. peter ; neither can we read of any synod esteem'd to be ratified , which was not establisht on the apostolic authority . therefore whatever you have decreed in your foresaid conventicle , by the authority of st. peter , prince of the apostles , and the speech of our saviour , who gave to blessed peter the power of binding and loosing , i do command all things determined by you to be void and repealed , &c. again his , not immediate , predecessor , pope gelasius is a yet more full and convincing witnesse to the popes vniversal iurisdiction , upon this occasion . pope felix the second , who possessed st. peters chair next before him , had been appealed and complain'd to by iohn patriark of alexandria , unjustly dispossess'd by peter an eutichian , whom the pope in a synod of 42. bishops excommunicated . moreover , upon the complaints of the same iohn , he cited acacius bishop of constantinople to appear : and upon his contumacy excommunicated him likewise in this form : take notice , saies he , that thou art deprived of sacerdotal honor , and catholic communion , and moreover , that thou art segregated from the number of the faithful , having lost both the name and office of priestly ministery , being condemned by us by the judgment of the holy ghost and apostolic authori●y . yet this sentence , not having been , as the former was , denounced in a synod , some eastern bishops found fault with it . whereupon his next successor pope gelasius justifies his proceedings in an epistle to the bishop of dardania , he shews that when any heretic has bin once condemned by a synod , ( as sabellius , &c. ) there was need of convoking new synods for the condemning his followers : and that this was the case of acacius , who communicated with peter and timotheus , bishops of alexandria , eutychians , which heresie had been condemned in the council of chalcedon . in consequence whereto he adds these words : neither do we omit to signifie , which the whole church all the world over knows very well , that the see of the blessed apostle st. peter , has a power to loose whatsoever things shall be bound by the sentences of any bishops whatsoever , as being the church which has a right to judge every other church , neither is it permitted to any one to censure its judgment : seeing the canons have ordain'd that appeals should be made to it from every part of the world. are these now marks onely of a primacy of order , and not supremacy of iurisdiction ? 7. we will next enlarge a step to pope leo the great , who began his seat in the year 440. and in whose time the general council of chalcedon was assembled . how couragious and constant an assertor he was of his supream iurisdiction , most of his epistles witnesse , and almost all protestant controver●ists complain . he in his 53d . epistle to anatolius , bishop of constantinople ; in the 54th . to the emperor marcianus ; and the 55th . to the empresse pulcheria , vindicates the derivation of his authority , not from the imperial city , but st. peter , prince of the apostles . 8. therefore , whereas the preacher calls to witnesse the famous canon of chalcedon , decreeing to the bishop of constantinople an equality of priviledges with the bishop of rome ; not for any other reason then its having the good hap to be one of the two imperial cities . if he had had a mind to dealingenuously , he would have cal'd it an infamous canon surreptitiously made , saith liberatus , after the departure of the iudges , the senate , and of the legats of the see apostolic ; and entirely nullyfied by the protestation of the said legats , and the sentence of pope leo , without whose consent , according to the antient traditionary law , nothing made in any council could oblige the church . a canon this was , so despised during that whole age and more , that the memory of it only remained in the acts of that council , but it was not inserted among the other canons , for as it appears by the most antient greek and latin copies of that council , by the collection of dionisius exiguus , and by the testimony of theodoret anagnostes a grecian , the council of chalcedo● publisht only twenty seven canons , whereas now this is reckoned the 28th . lastly , a canon this was , that anatolius bishop of constantinople ( by whose brig●ing with some bishops , and violence to others it was compiled ) was himself both ashamed and sorrow for it , as appears by st. leo's answer to him : and of which pope gelasius forty years after affirms , that the see apostolic never consented to it , the emperor never imposed it ; anatolius never made use of it , and the whole matter was put in the power of the see apostolic : and therefore what the same see confirm'd , remained in force , and that which it receiv'd not , could not have any firmnesse . 9. now because this enormous canon was pretended to be only a renewing of a former canon made in the second general council of constantinople , observe the false dealing of that bishop and his clergy , in citing that canon . for whereas it was thus conceived , let the bishop of constantinople enjoy ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) prerogatives of honor after the bishop of rome : these renewers of this canon at chalcedon , fraudulently thrust in the words [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] equal priviledges : as if , excepting only the sitting in the second chair , he was to enjoy in the church all the prerogatives of the see apostolick : a fancy which never entred into the minds of those former bishops . and indeed de facto after the fourth council of chalcedon , the new patriark , by vertue of the exotic power given him , presumed to summon all the other patriarks and bishops in the east to a council ; an attempt repressed by pope leo. and no doubt when afterward the usurped the title of oecumenical bishop , they would not fear to give the same title of oecumenical to their councils too . 10. and as for the second canon of that council of constantinople quoted in the margin of the sermon , whereby the eastern patriarks are forbidden to meddle in ecclesiastical affairs beyond the limits of their provinces , what is this to the bishop of rome ? he is not so much as named nor thought of in that canon : neither was there ever any received council in gods church that excluded him from an universal iurisdiction which the doctor sees was ●rcised by so many popes at and after the council of chalcedon , and he will see more before it . chap. vii . the pope's supremacy confirmed by a law of the emperor valentinian . decrees of pope's had antiently the force of lawes : yet with restriction . the pope's supream iurisdiction confirmd by examples in the eastern church . appeals to the see apostolic decreed at sardica , where were present british bishops . of the first council at arles , where british bishops likewise were present . the sixth canon of the council of nice explain'd . 1. there was an imperial law made by valentinian the third , ( who began his reign a. d. 424. ) directed to the bishops of france , importing that whatever had been , and should be establish'd by the see apostolick , should have the force of a law to them and all others . and this the emperor saies is secundum veterem consuetudinem . moreover to shew the grounds of that law , he further saie● , that the supremacy of the see apostolic has been established both by the merit of st. peter , who is the prince of episcopal society , and by the dignity of the city , and by the sacred authority of a synod . 2. now if we shall consider the weight of such a publick testimony , and how christian catholick emperors never made lawes touching ecclesiastical matters , but by the advice of bishops , and for the corroborating of former church canons both touching faith and discipline , and by no means for introducing of new ones , we shall find a greater proof can scarce be produced against the preachers pretention , that between the times of the four first general councils the popes enjoyed only a primacy of order , and not iurisdiction . 3. though this law seems too excessively large , commanding that whatever had been or should be , &c. pope leo , who lived in the same age , limits the true sense of it , when he commands that all the decretals and constitutions both of pope innocent , and all other his predecessors , should be observed ; namely , such as are publish't touching ecclesiastical orders and canons : or , as pope hilarius expresses it , what ever constitutions have been made by popes for the quiet of all gods priests , the observance of discipline and taking away confusions . 4. examples of such publick decrees of unquestion'd authority , even in the judgement of the most learned protestants , we finde made by pope zosimus , pope innocent the first , and pope siricius , who governed the church between the yeares 385. and 418. for as for the decretals pretended to be made by antecedent popes , they do except against them , and perhaps not without ground , he will not expect i should transcribe those authentick decrees to weary both him and my self unnecessarily . he knows very well where to find them . i will only adde , that such decrees were actually received as laws by the churches of spain , france , &c. hence it is , that in the fourth council of toledo , the bishops say , for what is to be observed by us in such cases , let us be informed by the precepts of the apostolick see , and not follow our own , but our common fathers instruction . and the council of tours says , what bishop shall presume to act contrary to such decrees as have proceeded from the see apostolick ? notwithstanding , it was not forbidden to bishops to consider and examin such decrees ; for if they were made upon misinformation , even popes themselves have declared that the force of them should be suspended . and much more , if against the ancient canons ; for saith pope zosimus ( ap . gratian. 25. q. 1. ) even this seat hath not authority to constitute or change any thing contrary to the statute of the fathers . 5. as for the more primitive times preceding these , i will content my self with a few examples , but such , and of so great weight , that if the preacher will be ingenuous , they will even content him . in the recounting of them it will not be necessary , i should observe exactly the order of times in each of them . and the first shall be a passage of the great saint basil , who writing to st. athanasius about suppressing arianism in the east , hath these words , it seems convenient to us to write to the bishop of rome , to desire him that he would have regard to our affaires , and interpose the judgment of his decree , &c. moreover , that he would give authority to s●m choice persons , who may bring the acts of the council of ariminum for the annulling of those things that were violently done there , &c. 6. again , when the synod of antioch about the year 343. assembled by arians to the prejudice of the council of nice , had framed a new confession of faith , it was argued of nullity , saith s●crates , especially because iulius bishop of rome was neither himself present , nor sent any to supply his place : whereas ( saith he ) the ecclesiastical canon commands that no decrees be established in the church without the assent of the bishop of rome ▪ and this authority the same pope iulius asserts ; for writing to the eastern bishops , who had condemned st. athanasius , he sayes thus , [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] are you ignorant , this is the custom that you should first write to us , and after that determin just matters there ? therefore if there were any ill suspition against that bishop [ of alexandria ] you ought to have signified it in the first place to the church here . 7. consonantly hereto sozomen , another greek historian saith expresly , that there was received in the church a sacerdotal law , declaring all things to be void that are done without the sentence of the bishop of rome . nay , which is yet more , this ( which for ought appears was only an unwritten canon or custom , for no council mentions it , but deliver'd by tradition even in the eastern churches ) was of such authority , that the foresaid emperor valentinian makes it a law-imperial : we decree , says he , that according to the antient custom nothing be innovated in the church without the sentence of the bishop of rome . surely dr. pierce will acknowledge these testimonies argue more than a primacy of order ; here is a iurisdiction , asserted , extending it self beyond the dioces●n , metropolitan or patriarcal limits of rome . 8. i will add a few examples more : when some eastern councils had deposed athanasius , patriark of alexandria , paul bishop of constantinople , marcellus pri●at of ancy●a , and asclepas , bishop of gaza , the bishop of rome , saith sozomen , ( to whom for the dignity of his throne the care of all things does pertain ) restored to every one of them their own church . and he adds further , that he commanded those who had deposed them to appear on a day appointed at rome , to give account of their judgement : threatning that he would not leave them unpunish'd , if they did not cease from innovating . all this he did , saith theodoret , [ not by usurpation , but [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] following the churches law . 9. again , when the general council of ephesus was entring into debate about the cause of iohn patriark of antioch , the bp. of ierusalem interposed , affirming , that according to the antient custom , the church of antioch● as alwayes governed by the roman ; whereupon the whole council remitted the judgement of that cause to the pope . 10. moreover , when dioscorus , patriark of alexandria , in the scismatical council of ephesus had deposed flavian bishop of constantinople , flavian appealed to the pope . and this he did [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] according to the custom of synods , sayth the emperor valentinian . 11. two examples more i will the rather add , because we of this nation are particularly concern'd in them . the first is taken out of the famous council of sardica assembled about twenty years after that of nice . this council was by iustinian called oecumenical , because , though the eastern bishops departed before the conclusion ; yet the canons of it were never rejected by them . in the third and fourth canons of this council it was ordain'd , upon a proposal made by the famous osius of corduba , to this effect , that in any controversies between bishops which could not be determined in their own respective provinces , the person aggrieved might appeal to the bishop of rome , who might renew the process and appoint iudges : and ( by a second proposal of gaudentius a bishop ) in case any bishop deposed should make such an appeal , till the pope had determin'd the cause , it was not permitted that another bishop should be ordained in his place . these decrees the council made to honor the memory of st. peter the apostle . 12. now at this con●cil among other bishops from all the western countreys , some came out of our britany , as st. athanasius an eye-witness assured us . and therefore the general superintendency of the pope over all churches could not have been unknown in this nation long before st. augustin the monk , or the saxons had possession here . by which may appear the slightness of the late found welsh paper , though much bragged of , in which the abbot of bangor is said to have refused the subjection to the pope , which st. augustin requir'd of the british bishops . for what grosse ignorance was it in this abbot ( if the paper relate truth of him ) that after all that power exercised by that man called the pope over the whole church of god , especially over the western provinces , and so much respect return'd him from them after the presence of the british bishops at so many famous councils , and after so many holy bishops sent for the conversion of these islands by the bishops of romes delegation , he should be such a stranger to his person , or authority , or his titles , after the year of our lord 600 ? at which time also the irish bishops are found to have yielded all obedience to this roman bishop , when the britains thus denied it , as appears both in that they are said by venerable beda ( the south-irish at least ) to have returned very early to a right observation of easter ad admonitionem apostolicae sedis antistitis , and also in that about this time they sent letters to st. gregory then pope , to know after what manner they ought to receive into the church such as were converted from nestorianism , to whom he sends his orders concerning it directed quirino episcopo & ceteris episcopis in hybernia catholicis , as may be found in the register of his epistles . 13. a second monument wherein we britains have a peculiar interest , is that most antient first council of arles , celebrated according to baronius and sirmondus ( assented to by sir henry spelman ) in the year 314. about eleven years before the first council of nice . the canons of this council are directed to the bishop of rome , as appears by the first canon in these words , first concerning the paschal observation of our lord , that it be observed by us upon one day and at one time through the whole world ; and that according to custom thou wouldst direct letters to all . and moreover in the head of the canons is inserted this breviary of their epistle , to our most holy lord and brother silvester , marinus and the synod of bishops assembled together in the town of arles : we have signified to your charity the things decreed by common council , to the end that all may know what they ought for the future to observe . here may be seen a patriarchical council sending their decrees to the bishop of rome , as being the chief person from whom all christians are to receive information of what they ought to believe and practise , and by whom no doubt they were to be obliged thereto . in which regard st. martin , pope and martyr , makes this the popes most proper title , that he is custos canonum divinorum . 14. at this council were present three bishops representatives of the british clergy , eborius bishop of york , restitutus bishop of lonidon , adelphius bishop of ( maldon , called then ) colonia londinensium , with sacerdos , a priest , and arminius , a deacon . and the canons of this council , were by restitutus brought into britany , saith bishop godwin out of bale . by which also it appears that neither the pope himself , nor his place and authority in the church were unknown , nor un-acknowledged by the britains long before st. augustines days . 15. and now it will be seasonable to answer the doctors great objection grounded on that famous 6 th . canon of the first nicene council , by which he says , every patriarch and bishop is appointed to be chief in his proper diocese , as the bishop of rome is chief in his . this is now to be examin'd . the words of the canon are , [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. ] let the antient customs be still in force in egypt , lybia , and pentapolis , that the bishop of alexandria enjoy a iurisdiction over them all : in as much as such likewise is the custom of the bishop of rome . in like manner both in antioch and other provinces , let the [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] priviledges be preserv'd entire to every church . 16. the true sense of this canon will best appear from the end for which it was enacted , and that apparently was for the regulating and composing disorders begun in egypt by meletius bishop of lycopolis , who rebelliously refused obedience to the patriark of alexandria , presuming to ordain bishops independently on him . this scismatical attempt the council here represses , commanding that according to the antient custom the bishop of alexandria should have entire iurisdiction through all egypt , lybia , and pentapolis ; and the roman bishop in his patriarchat , and may say in his metropolitanship too is made the patern according to which this regulation is framed not in regard of his plenary right , and universal jurisdiction in the church of god , which ( i have shewed already , and shall demonstrate the same yet further , even in the times preceding this council ) is extended to the whole world , and was exercised over the ▪ patriarcs themselves , but only of the custom and practice of his calling synods , correcting manners , and making ordinations according to his patriarkal and metropolitical jurisdiction : for those words in the sixth nicene canon , similiter autem & apud caete●as provincias , in like manner in the rest of the provinces , that is , those provinces also that were not such where a patriarc resided , honor suus unicuique servetur , let every one's honor be preserved to him , compared with the second canon of the first council of constantinople , and the eighth canon of the ephesian council , shew clearly enough , that not only patriarkical authority , but metropolitical also is spoken of in this canon , and the roman bishops authority also herein made a pattern . and upon this ground that the canon intends not to equalize the bishop of alexandria with the bishop of rome in his full jurisdiction , the most learned marca late archbishop of tholouse observes , that those who object it against the popes primacy , though they fortifie themselves even with ru●●inus his interposition of suburbicarian churches will gain but little by it , for it signisignifies no more but that the bishop of rome did ordain either immediately or by commission all the bishops in the suburbicarian churches , so ought the bishop of alexandria to do in egypt , lybia and pentapolis . 17. but , though i mention this version of ruffinus , because it is much applauded by our primitive reformers , and i expect doctor pier●e , in his reply , will have recourse to it , yet it is a most groundlesse and sencelesse translation , or rather corruption of the canon ; his words are , vt apud alexandriam , & in urbe roma vetusta consuetudo servetur , ut ille egypti , vel hic suburbicariarum ecclesiarum sollicitudi●em gerat . against which so much hath been written that it would be to lose time to repeat it , especially to the doctor , who cannot be unacquainted with what * erasmus and ‖ scalager have observed of the interpreter , that it is his custom to omit , pervert and change the text as he pleases ; and what others with much learning and judgement have said to this interpretation . not to speak of the bishop of rome's jurisdiction as first patriarc , whereby the other patriarcs were subordinate to him , being obliged even in this matter of their own ordinations to give him notice , sending withal a confession of their faith , upon the approbation whereof , and of the legality of their election and ordination , he confirmed them or otherwise deposed them , of which many examples may be produced : whosoever hath but looked into ecclesiastical history must confesse that his particular patriarchat was far from being confined to the ten suburbicarian provinces subject to the vicariat of rome : nay , it is manifest that it extended to the whole western empire , which , besides italy , france , spain , germany , britany , the six maritime provinces of africa , &c. contained illyricum , macedon , epyrus , greece , and the islands near it ; and all this by the confessions of adversaries , zonaras , balsamon , &c. writing on this very canon . hence st. basil calls the bishop of rome [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] the head or chief of the western regious . and st. augustin says , that pope innocent did preside over the vvestern church . and st. hierom , let them ( says he ) condemn me as an heretic with the vvest , as an heretic with egypt , that is with damasus and peter . and iustinian the emperor affirms , that all the regions of the vvorld are subject to the five patriarcs , that is [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] to vvestern rome , constantinople , alexandria , thepolis ( or antioch ) and ierusalem . now unless hesperia signifies the whole vvest , to what patriarc was france , spain , africa , &c subject . if not to rome , how can all bishops be said to be subject to five patriarcs ? hence the vvestern bishops are by theodores call'd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; and by sacrates 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . chap. viii . proofs of the popes supreme iurisdiction before the first council of nice . how all apostles and all bishops equal : and how subordinate . st. peter had more than a primacy of order . of st. paul's resisting st. peter . the popes supremacy not dangerous to states . on the contrary , &c. protestants writing in favour of it . 1. but as yet our proofs of primacy of iurisdiction in the successor of st. peter , though they reach to the beginning in the latitude fixed by the doctor , and truly i am perswaded to an indifferent reader will appear more credible than any his margins furnish to the contrary : yet they may be continued , till we come even to the presbyterians , independants and quakers beginning too , that is , the gospels themselves . to demonstrate this , we will make a short enquiry into the times of the church before constantin , whilst it was a mere suffering church , incapable of conspiring either in or out of general councils : but withal a church lesse dispersed and torn by heresies or contentions among bishops , and therefore lesse needing this preservative against schisms , supreme authority . 2. in these holy peaceable times ther●ore before silvester , i will content my self with two or three examples to prove the acknowledgement of such a primacy . and the first shall be of st. melchiades the immediat predecessor of pope silvester : st. augustin will afford us a testimony of his care and authority extended into africk , whose words are , [ qualis ipsius melchiadis ultima est prolata sententia , &c. ] such an one was the last sentence melchiades himself pronounced ( in judgeing the cause of donatus : ) by which he would not have the boldnesse to remove from his communion his collegues , ( the catholic bishops in africa ) in whom no crime could be proved : and having censured most deeply donatus alone , whom he found to have been the original of all the mischief , he gave a free choyce of healing the breaches of scism to all the rest of his followers : being also in a readiness to send communicatory letters to those ( subdivided scismatics ) that were ordained by majorinus ( a donatist bishop : ) in so much as his sentence was , that in whatsoever cities of africk there were two bishops dissenters ( a catholic and a donatist ▪ he should be confirm'd in the bishoprick , who was first ordained , &c. and that another diocese should be provided which the other should govern . o son of christian peace ! and truly father of the christian flock , says st. augustin . 3. i will add to this three other examples , in which , though as to the use and administration of the superintendency som objections have been made , yet they suffice to confirm the acknowledgement of such a superintendency in the pope ▪ as the preacher denies . the first is of pope stephanus contemporary with st. cyprian and his fellow in martyrdom , concerning whom we read in eusebius , that he either inflicted , or at least threatned excommunication to som of the churches of asia that held a necessity of rebaptization after baptism received by heretics . and in the same quarrel , between the same pope stepha●●s and st. cyprian himself , matters were almost brought to the like extremity : yet neither did st. cyprian , though wonderfully sharp , nor even that violent cappadocian bishop , firmilianus ever question the popes authority , though , as they thought , unjustly employed ▪ 4. the other is extant in the same st. cyprian , who endeavour'd to peswade the pope to depose marcianus a metropolitan bishop of arles , siding with novatian ; his words to pope stephanus about it are these , let letters be directed from thee into the province , and to the people of arl●s , commanding that marcianus be excommunicated , and another put in his place . and to the like purpose is another epistle of his in a cause touching two spanish bishops , upon mis-information restor'd by the pope . 5. the third is that so well known example of pope victor , concerning whom eusebius thus writes , victor endeavours to cut off from the fellowship of communion the churches of asia , as declining into heresie , and sends letters by which he would divide them all indifferently from the ecclesiastical society , &c. but there are extant letters of bishops by whom victor is sharply reproved , as one that was carelesse of the commodity of the whole church . particularly ireneus reprehends him , telling him , that he did very ill to divide from the unity of the whole body so many and so great churches . now in such reproofs from ireneus , and even polycrates an asian bishop , himself the ring-leader of the party of the quart● decimani against st. victor , it was not impu●ed to victor that he exercised an usurped authority over bishops not subject to him , but that the cause of exercising his just authority was ●ot sufficiently weighty . 6. having proceeded thus far , our last step shall be to the utmost degree , the very beginning it self , our lord and st. peter in the gospels . and here we will acknowledge what the d●ctor saies , that all the twelve apostles were equally foundations of the churches building : that the same authority which was first given to st. peter alone , sustaining the person of the whole church , was afterward given to the rest of the apostles ; that as st. cyprian saies , the same that st. peter was , the rest of the apostles likewise were [ pari consortio praediti , &c. ] endowed with an equal participation of honor and power . and as st. hierom affirms , that all bishops in all places whether at rome or eugubium , [ canterbury or rochester ] are of the very same merit , &c. but he will give leave to the scripture to interpret it self , and to the fathers to interpret both it and themselves . we grant therefore that all the apostles , and all bishops their successors , enjoy the whole latitude of apostolic and episcopal iurisdiction , for as much as concerns the internal , essential qualifications of either : but for the external administration there may be , and alwaies was acknowledged , a subordination and different latitude in the exercise of the same authority both among the apostles and bishops . let him not find fault with this distinction ; for they themselves have occasion somtimes to make use of it to the like purpose . arch-bishop whitgift , in his defence of the answer to the admonition , affirms , that archbishops , quoad ministerium , do not differ from other pastors , but touching government , page 303. and afterward page 386. answering the same argument out of st. hierom , who equals the meanest bishop with the pope , he saies , that they are equal quoad ministerium , but not quoad polittam . 7. let him take therefore an example illustrating this at home . what function , what act of iurisdiction can my lord of canterbury exercise ( i mean according to their tenets ) which the meanest of his subordinate bishops cannot perform ? he can ordain bishops and priests ; so can they ; the former with him , the other without him . he can visit his pr●vince ; they their di●cesse . he can give the holy ghost by confirmation ; so can they ▪ he can assemble a provincial council ; they a diocesan . he has a canonical authority over bishops , &c. they over priests . he can absolve from censures inflected by himself ; they can do as much . yet nothing of all this excludes him from enjoying a special priviledge in the exercise of every one of these acts and functions , or exempts them from subordination to him as their superior , yea , supream pastor , supream not in order only , but iurisdiction . certainly the doctor can easily apply this to st. peter , and the rest of the apostles , or to st. peter's successors , and all other bishops . 8. now if the fathers may be believed , is was a priviledge , and a great one , that st peter , for the merit of his confession , had christs own title , as christ was governor of the church , given him , of being called a rock . for in the syrian language , in which our lord spake , the words have no different termination , as in the greek or latin , petrus , petra ; but the words were , thou art gepha ( a rock ) and upon this gepha ( rock ) i will build my church . it was a priviledge that peter , neither the eldest , nor first chosen apostle , is alwaies in the gospel first reckoned , and expresly called , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the first . it was a priviledge importing a greater latitude of iurisdiction , when after our lord's resurrection , st. peter alone had in the midst of the rest a commission given him of indefinitly ●eeding christ's flock ; and after the descent of the holy ghost , was peculiarly appointed the apostle of the circumcision , as st. paul was of the gentiles : yea that the dedication of st. paul's office was performed by st. peter , who by immediate revelation was appointed to gather the first fruits of the gentiles , in the conversion of cornelius , and his house-hold , &c. 9. but , why among such governors as the apostles , was any supereminency of iurisdiction given to one man ? certain it is , there never was lesse necessity to provide against disobedience and dis-unions , then among the apostles ; every one of whom was guided by a divine unerring light , by which they knew all truth , and replenish'd with the spirit of charity and vn●ty , which exempted them from all ambitious , envious or malicious design● : yet a subordination , not absolutely necessary to them , was established among them , for the succeeding churches sake , which without such order would in a very short time become a meer babel . hence st. hierom saies , the church was built upon peter : though true it is the same thing is done upon others , and that the strength of the church equally rests upon all . but among the twelve one is chosen , that a head being constituted , the occasion of schism may be taken away . 10. to the same purpose st. cyprian , notwithstanding the sentence produced by the preacher out of him , that all the apostles were pari consortio praediti honoris & potestatis ; yet in the very same book saies , [ super unum aedificat ecclesiam , &c. ] our lord builds his church upon one person . and , though after his resurrection , he gave an equal power to all the apostles , saying , as my father sent me , so send i you : receive the holy ghost : whose sins you remit , &c. yet that he might manifest unity , he by his authority disposed the original of the same vnity beginning from one . ( and presently after ) whosoever holds not the unity of the church , does he believe that he holds the faith ? he that opposes are resists the church ; he that forsakes the chair of s. peter , upon which the church is founded , does he trust that he is in the church ? in like manner st. optatus at rome , ( saies he ) a chair was placed for st. peter , to the end that unity might be preserved of all ; and for fear the other apostles should challenge to themselves each one a particular chair . so st. chrysostome , observe now , how the same john , that a little before ambitiously beg'd a preferment , after yields entirely the supremacy to st. peter . and again , christ did constitute peter the master , not of that see of rome alone , but of the whole world . 11. now , whereas the doctor objects that st. paul's contesting with st. peter , and resisting him to his face , argues that he did not acknowledge any superiority in him : let st. augustin , from st. cyprian , resolve us , you see ( saies he to the donatists ) what st. cyprian hath said , that the holy apostle st. peter , in whom did shine forth so great a grace of primacy , being reprehended by st. paul , did not answer that the supremacy belong'd to him , and therefore he would not be reprehended by one that was posterior to him . and he adds , the apostle st. peter hath left to posterity a more rare example of humility , by teaching men not to disdain a reproof from inferiors ; then st. paul by teaching inferiors not to fear , resisting even the highest , yet without prejudice to charity , when truth is to be defended . 12. from all that has been said on this subject , it will necessarily follow , that whatever superiority st. peter enjoyed , and the holy fathers acknowledged , was the gift of our saviour only , a gift far more beneficial to us then to st. peter . he was , as st. chrysostome saies , master of the world , not because his throne was establish'd at rome , but receiving from our lord so supereminent an authority , he therefore made choice of rome for his see ; because that being the imperial city of the world , he might from thence have a more commodious influence on the whole church . 13. upon which grounds , whensoever the fathers make use of the authority of his successors , bishops of rome against hereticks or schismaticks , they consider that authority as a priviledge annexed to the chair of st. peter , and only for st. peters regard to the sea of rome . this is so common in the fathers writings , that i will not trouble him with one quotation . indeed iohn of constantinople , when he would invade an equality [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] in some sort with the pope , did wisely to mention only the priviledge of the imperial city , because he could allege no other pretention for his plea. but st. leo , st. gregory , st. gelasius , &c. produce their evidences for their supremacy from tues petrus , & super hanc petram , &c. from pasce oves meas , &c. nay , st. augustin and other bishops of the milevitan council , writing to pope innocent to joyn with them in condemning the pelagians , tell him their hope was those hereticks would more easily be induced to submit to his authority : why , because of the splendor of the imperial city ? no , but because the popes authority was [ de sanctarum scripturarum authoritate deprompta ] deduced from the authority of the holy scriptures . 14. i might with reason enough , yet i will not omit to take notice of doctor pierce's trivial reasonings against the popes , ( as he calls it ) pretended headship ; because such being sitted to vulgar capacities , and confidently pronounc'd , do more mischief , then those that have more shew of profundity and weight . thus then he argues : if the pope be head of the church , then the church must be the body of the pope : and if so , then when there is no pope , the church has no head : when there are many popes , the church has many heads : when the pope is heritical , the church has such a head as makes her deserve to be behe●ded . whatever advantage the doctor expects from such a discourse as this , it must flow from a childish cavil upon the word head , and whatever consequences he here draws from thence against the pope , may as well be applyed to all kind of governors , whether ecclesiastical or civil : for they are all heads within their precincts : a king is the head of his kingdom ; and a bishop of his diocesse . when we call therefore the pope , head of the church , we mean that among all governors thereof , he is the supream in the sense before declared : he is a head , but not so as christ is in respect of his mystical body , who by his spirit internally quickens and directs it . the pope is only an external , ministerial , visible head , and , as it were , root of vnity and government . all this , no question , the doctor knew before to be our meaning : and by consequence he knew that his inferences from thence were pitifully pedantic , & insignificant , though many of his court-hearers and country-readers perhaps wonder there can remain a papist in england unconverted after such a sermon has been publish'd . 15. when there is no pope , says the preacher , the church wants a head. it is granted : for sure he does not think it is a part of our faith to believe popes are immortal . but yet for all that the papacy is immortal : the government is not dissolv'd : succession is not interrupted . it is a maxim in our law that kings dye not , that is , the regal authority lives , though kings in their particular persons dye : nor is there any substantial difference , as to this point , between hereditary and elective monarchy ▪ and in this sense we may say , that popes dy not , nor bishops : partly because when a bishop or the pope dys , at least his jurisdiction remains in the chapter or body of electors . hence it is that in st. cyprian we read epistles of the roman clergy exercising authority beyond the diocese of rom● : but principally because , when an ecclesiastical ▪ superior dyes there remains by christs ordination a [ vis generativa ] or virtue in the church to constitute another in his place , and so to continue the government . there has been oft times a long vacancy in the apostolic see , as well as in dioceses and kingdoms . after the death of pope fabian ( before there were any christian emperors ) the see was vacant for above a years space : yet neither did st. iren●us , optatus , epiphanius , or st. augustin , when they objected the chain of succession in st. peters chair , esteem that thereby the chain had been broken : neither did any old hereticks make use of such an argument to invalidate the popes authority . 16. but what shall we say to the doctors next inference , in a case of schism ? when there are many popes , then ▪ says he , the church is become a monster with many heads . but he is deceived . as when , after the death of a king , several pretenders to the crown appear , there is still by right but one legitimate successor : all the rest are rebels and tyrants . it is so in the papacy . in that case st. cyprians rule holds , if the church be with novatian , it was not with cornelius , who by a lawful ordination succeeded fabian . novatian therefore is not in the church , nor can be esteemed a bishop ( of rome . ) or if it be uncertain to which of them the right pertains , so that some nations adhere to one head , others to another : it is a great calamity : but yet the church remains , though wounded , yet not wounded to death : a general council cures all . 17. if the pope , ( according to doctor pierce his supposition ) should prove an heretic , he infers very improperly , that the church ha● such a head as makes her deserve to be beheaded : for in that case , the pope is so far from remaining a head , that he is not so much as a member of the church , but is deprived not only of the administration , but also the communion of the church , as other heretical bishops are : so that then there is a pure vacancy . i shall not be so severe as to take notice of the unhansom ( not to say unmannerly ) terms the doctor uses in expressing the last branch of this objection . 18. thus much concerning the doctors first pretended novelty of the roman church , the popes primacy . now whether my asserting that primacy or his denying it to be a novelty , and whether his proofs or mine are more concluding , i leave to the readers consciences . he will excuse my dilating on this point , because therein i follow his own example , for he tels his majesty , he has spoken most at large of the popes supremacy and his reasons given for such largenesse shall be mine too , though i believe we shall have different meanings , yet without equivocation , even when we deliver our reasons ▪ in the same words . for i. i also acknowledg the popes supremacy to be the chief , if not only hinge on which does hang the stress of ( more than papal ) the ecclesiastical fabrick , as being the cement of the churches unity . 2. because it is a point wherin ( say i likewise ) the honor and safety of his majesties dominions are most concerned . his meaning is , that no danger is to be apprehended for england , but only from that point . i am sure , on the contrary , that whilst such a primacy purely spiritual was acknowledged in england , the church here was never torn in pieces with schisms , nor poyson'd with heresies : the throne was never in the least danger upon that account ; never was a sword drawn for or against it . some few little more than paper-quarrels hapned between the english and roman court , about matters , not of religion , but outward interests : in which generally the pope had the worst at last : but the honor and safety of these dominions were far from being prejudiced . the kings of france always have been , and stil continu as jealous and tender of their temporal regalities , as ever any princes were : yet they account it one of the most sparkling jewels of their crown , that they call themselves the eldest [ and most devoted ] sons of the catholic church . the acknowledging the spiritual primacy of the chief pastor they find a greater honor and defence to them than many armies would be : because it preserves peace and unity in that kingdom , not by the terror of swords drawn and muskets charged in their subjects faces , but by subduing their minds and captivating their consciences to faith and obedience . and let doctor pierce be assured , without a spiritual authority , which may have influence on the hearts of christian subjects , all their preaching , and laws too will prove but shaking bulwarks for supporting monarchy . 19. but we must not yet leave this passage without considering it a little better . he saith , that in the point of the popes supremacy of iurisdiction the honor and safety of his majesties dominions are most concern'd : his meaning is , that it is both dishonorable and dangerous to his majesties dominions , that any of his subjects should be permitted to acknowledge such a supremacy . i would i could oblige the doctor by any exorcisms to discover sincerely the inward thoughts of his heart upon this subject . but , having no such power , at so great a distance , i must be content to argue the case with him once more , because it is a passage , that reflects not only upon the honor of catholick religion , but the safety of all professors of it . 20. he cannot be ignorant , how often and how earnestly roman catholicks here have protested their renouncing any acknowledgement of the least degree of temporal power or jurisdiction as of right to belong to the pope , over any subject of his majesties ; it is therefore meerly a pure spiritual authority that they acknowledge in their supreme pastor . is this now dishonorable ? is it unsafe ? to whom ? to all supreme princes , whether catholics , or not ? for catholic princes , they protest against this opin●on either of dishonor or danger ; if only then to other princes or states which are dissenters from , and enemies to catholick religion , then nero and diocletian had reason and justice on their sides , when they persecuted a religion dishonorable and dangerous to the roman empire : for evidently , neither st. peter , nor any other apostle , or bishops , but were , as to their spiritual authority , independent on the emperors . 21. nay more , let the doctor himself consider , lest he and his , both brethren and fathers , the bishops , be not more deeply involved in the guilt , for which he desires the catholics only should suffer . they themselves acknowledge , in despite of so many statutes to the contrary , a pure spiritual authority in their bishops , not derived from the king , they promise a canonical obedience to them ▪ they do not so to the king , therefore they admit a jurisdiction in bishops , of which the king is not the root . for tho' for example , a publick denunciation of excommunication in their spiritual courts : or the conferring of orders , or determining points of faith , &c. without the kings consent may expose them , in case they exercise such functions , to some danger from the law of the kingdom , yet they will justifie such acts to be in themselves valid , that is , perform'd with sufficient authority ; see bishop andrews tort. tort p. 366. — bishop carleton of jurisdict . reg. & episcop . c. 1. p. 9. — &c. 4. p. 39 , 42. — bishop bramh. schism guarded , p , 61 , 63 , 92. — answer to bishop of chalced. p. 161. — doctor ferns discovery of episcopacy and presbytery , p. 19. — doctor tailor episcopacy asserted , p. 236 , 237 , 239 , 243 , — mr. thornd . right of ch. c. 4. p. 234. — epilog . l. 1. c. 8. p. 54. — l. 1. c. 19 , & 20. — l. 3. c. 32. which quotations if any intelligent reader will take the pains to peruse and consider , he may clearly see what limitations they make in the sense of that oath of regal supremacy , which oath yet they freely take in the full latitude of its words , though these expresse not any of the said limitations . amatter , which hath not passed unobserved by mr. thorndyke in his iust weights , c. 20. who there conceives great reason why the kingdom for this should enact a new oath . 22. but if i should address my speech now to presbyterians and their consistories , the case is far more evident . they are so far from permitting to the king a supremacy of authority in their ecclesiastical courts ( if such conspiracies may be called ecclesiastical ) that they will not so much as allow him any authority at all in such transactions : nay they will exempt him no more than his meanest subject from subjection to them . the like may be said of other sects , which though they are not guilty of the presbyterian tyranny , yet are as averse from granting his majesty any supremacy in matters of religion , as either presbyterians , protestants , or roman catholics . but i am now to deal with the preacher and his protestants : i therefore desire them to compare themselves and roman catholics together as to this point of honor and safety to his majesty and his dominions . 23. is it dishonorable either to the king or kingdom , that a purely spiritual authority should be acknowledged in him , to whom this whole kingdom from its first conversion to christianity together with the whole christian world submitted it self as to their supreme pastor ? and is it honorable , that the same authority should be granted to more than twenty of his majesties own subjects ? again , is it unsafe that canonical obedience for christian vnity's sake should be professed to one venerable prelat a 1000. miles off , and is there no danger in making the same profession to so many at home , who , besides their spitual authority , have a right to concur in the enacting and executing civil laws too ; and who , we see , can either exalt or depresse , according to their interests , and advantages the royal prerogative ? 2. to resolve such questions , as these , but also so to resolve them as becomes a preacher of the gospel of peace and truth would be a subject worthy the stating in a court-sermon . but it must be don without transgressing the precise limits of the question , that is , by comparing the state of catholic religion as professed and practised , for example , in france , venice , germany , &c. with the reformed religion in england ; the ecclesiastical hierarchy of the former with that of the latter ; and then judging whether of the two bring more security and honor to their princes , and are more effectual upon the consciences of subjects to breed them up in peace and obedience . for my own part , simply as a catholic , my desire and prayers are , that gods divine truth may prevail in all our hearts , but so prevail by those wayes of charity , patience , justice and piety with which it first conquered the world. and as a subject of the crown of england my prayers are , that we may be all united in the profession of that only religion , which more perfect●y and most indispensibly gives to caesar the things which are caesar 's , and to god the things which are god's . 25. i will row for a farewel , to these testimonies of our catholic fathers , add the votes of the fathers also of the reformation , that he may see how far more ingenuously they write then himself has don● touching the popes primacy . and first i will produce two or three , who , though they oppose it , as he does , as a novelty ▪ yet allow a far greater age to it . doctor fulk ( most unchronologically ) says , that five or six hundred years before pope leo and pope gregory ( that is almost an hundred years before christ was born ) the mystery of iniquity wrought in the see of rome , and then daily encreased ; they were so deceived with long continuance of error , that they thought the dignity of peter was much more over the rest of his fellow apostles , then the holy scriptures do allow . archbishop whitgift assures us , that the papal supremacy began with st. peter , his words are , among the apostles themselves there was one chief , that had chief authority over the rest , to the end schisms might be compounded . and this he quotes from calvin , who said , the twelve apostles had one among them to govern the rest . 26. i will now produce two , who will give this whole cause to the pope . the first is the so fam'd melanctho● , who writes thus : as certain bishops preside ●ver particular churches , so the bishop of rome is president over all bishops . and this canonical policy no wise man , as i think , does or ought to disallow , &c. for the monarchy of the bishop of rome is in my judgement profitable to this end , that consent of doctrine may be retain'd . wherfore an agreement may easily be established in this article of the popes supremacy , if other articles could be agreed upon . the other witnesse is learned doctor covel , the defender of mr. hooker , he having shew'd the necessity of setting up one above the rest in god's church to suppresse the seeds of dissention , &c. thus applies it against the puritans , if this were the principal means to prevent schisms and dissentions in the p●imitive church , when the graces of god were more abundant and eminent then now they are : n●y , if twelve [ apostles ] were not like to agree , except there had been one chief among them : for saith hierom , among the twelve one was therefore chosen , that a chief being appointed , occasion of schism might be preven●ed ; how can they think that equality would keep all the pastors in the world in peace and unity ? for in all societies , authority , which cannot be where all are equal , must procure unity and obedience . he adds further : the church without such an authority , should be in a far worse case then the meanest common-wealth ; nay almost then a den of theives ; if it were left d●stitute of means , either to convince heresies , or to suppresse them ; yea , though there were neither help nor assistance of the christian ▪ magistrate . thus dr. pierce may see how these , his own primitive reformers , either joyn with us in this point of primacy , or however they oppose him , in calling it a novelty begun by pope boniface the third . chap. ix . of the churches infallibility . the necessity thereof , that she may be a certain guide to salvation ; and the grounds whereupon she claims it . 1. the second pretended novelty of catholick doctrine , is the infallibility of the church , called by the preacher , the pa●●adium of the conclave , and derived from the schollars of marcus in irenaeus , or from the gnosticks in epiphanius . against which infallibility his unanswerable arguments are , 1. infallibility is one of gods incommunicable attributes . 2. the church not being omniscient , must therefore be ignorant in part , and consequently may fall into error . 3. it is confess'd by the great champions of the papacy , that the heresie of the novatians was hatch'd in rome , and continued there almost two hundred years . 4. besides arianism that over-spread the church , she was infected with the heresie of the chyliasts , being deceived by papias , which heresie found no contradi●●●● for some ages . 5. yea , the whole church in the opinion of st. augustin and pope innocent , ( during the space of six hundred years according to maldona● ) thought the sacrament of the eucharist necessary to infants : yet the council of trent is of a contrary mind . 2. in order to the answering of this disco●rse , he will sure acknowledge that all sect ▪ of christianity agree in this , that each of them has both a rule of their faith , and a 〈◊〉 also : but in both these there is difference among them . to the presbyterians , independents , anabaptists , quakers , socinians , &c. the only rule is the holy scripture . but both catholicks and english protestants , though they acknowledge divine revelations to be their only rule , yet they admit certain universally received traditions , besides expresse scripture . 3. but as for the guide from which we are to learn the true sense of this rule , the difference among the said sects is far greater , and more irreconcilable . the socinians will have scripture interpreted onely by private reason , a guide evidently fallible , and therefore not to be imposed on others . the independents , anabaptists , quakers , and presbyterians too , pretend to an infallible guide , gods holy spirit ; but with this difference , that the independents , anabaptists , and quakers , rationally acknowledge that this guide is only to direct those that have it , and perceive they have it , but cannot oblige other men that have it not , nor can be sure they have it . whereas the presbyterians by an unexampled tyranny ( at least in france ) do oblige themselves and their posterity to a profession , that by a divine illumination they are taught to distinguish canonic●l books of scripture from apocriphal , and by the same guide to justifie all the doctrines by which they dissent from all others : and moreover , by a most senslesse inhumanity , will impose a necessity on all others , to belie their own consciences , and acknowledge the same guide ; though they have never wrought any miracles , which certainly are necessary to oblige others to believe and follow the internal guidance of that spirit to which they pretend . 4. as for dr. pierce , and the generality of english protestants , ( i speak of them now , as hitherto they have bin , for what they must be hereafter , neither they nor i know a special guide of theirs , beyond reason and spirit , for the finding out the sense of scripture , and judging of traditions received by them , is the primitive church , or foure first general councils : but since those ancient fathers are now past speaking , and their writings are as obnoxious to disputes as the scriptures themselves , a speaking judge of the sense of all these , i suppose , is their ecclesiastical synods , or bishops , when synods are dissolved : but principally those that are to make , and determine the sense of acts of parliament . and upon these grounds they finde themselves obliged to behave themselves differently to several adversaries . for against sects that went out from them , they use the help of catholick weapons , the authority of the chu●ch , councils , &c. but against catholics , they ( renouncing the authority of the present church in her supremest councils , of convening which the times are capable , and ( in the interval of councils ) in the major part of the governours thereof united with him , whom themselves acknowledge the prime patriark ) will make use of a kind of private spirit or reason ; or the judgment of a most inconsiderable number of church-govern●rs , going against the whole body of the catholick church , and their chief pastor , but this , as to assent only , where it likes them , and so will be their own selves judges of what is the sense of councils , fathers , scriptures and all : and great difficultie they often find how to avoid being accounted papists , when they speak to sectaries , and being even fanaticks when they dispute with roman catholicks . and truly the doctors whole sermon , is in effect meerly fanatick : for though he florish with greek and latin●quotations of fathers joynd to scripture , which they do not ; yet since there is no visible judge talk'd of in it , but himself , that is able to speak ; what is this but private spirit , having little measure of the gift of tongues more than quakers have ? so that let them preach as much as they will , the result of all dispute between them and us must come to this , whether their last speaking iudge in england , or ours in the whole catholic church , deserves better to be believ'd and rely'd on . 5. it cannot be deny'd but that there is somthing of truth in all these sects . the guide which each of them respectively layes claim to , is a justifiable guide , though being alone not sufficient . for 1. to exclude reason from guiding us , would be to become beasts . 2. to exclude gods spirit from directing us , would be to cease being christians . 3. to renounce the testimony of antiquity , and authority of general primitive councils , would be an arrogant temerity unpardonable . 4. and last of all to deny a judging determining power to the present visible governors , i mean those governors and synods which are superior , in respect of all other governors or synods inferior , would be to make all heresies and schisms justifiable . therefore not any of these partial guides must be neglected : yet unlesse they all concur , that which we take to be reason , and inspiration , and the sense of the primitive church may deceive and mis-guide us . 6. now , it is only the roman catholic church , whose en●●re guidance proceed● from all these , and the effect of which guidance in full satisfaction to each mans soul , and universal peace in gods church : which effects cannot possibly flow but from a complication of all these guides . roman catholics admit reason to judge of the sense of scripture , ( as the socinians do : ) but they give due bounds to reason , nay they silence it quite , when it would presume to judge of incomprehensible mysteries , and reject them because philosophy cannot comprehend them . when reason has found out the sense of scripture , they with the presbyterians , and even fanatics , acknowledge it is divine inspiration that moves the soul to assent thereto , and embrace the verities contained in scripture , directing their actions accordingly . but because the devil can transform himself into an angel of light , neither can there be any guide more dangerous then false inspirations , they conclude that all such pretended inspirations are indeed diabolical suggestions , which are prejudicial to honesty , virtue , piety , and the common rules of obedience , both spiritual and civil ; all inspirations which which incite private , uncommission'd persons to reform either churches or state ; all that nourish factions or commotions in the common-wealth : all that beget pride , and an opinion of self-sufficiency , or an humor of censuring others , especially superiors . in a word , whensoever the spirit of single prophets refuse to be subject to the community of the prophets , that is , church governors ; such inspirations in catholic religion are rejected , detested , and sent back to the infernal father of them . 7. moreover , roman catholics do willingly and confidently appeal to the primitive church , the four first general councils , and the holy fathers . but universal experience demonstrating it impossible , that any writing can end a debate between multitudes of persons interessed , and therefore not impartial or indifferent , their last recourse is to the present visible church ; which cannot declare her sense to us in any other way then as she is represented by her pastors out of all nations , that is , by a general council . all catholics , submiting to this council , not their tongues only , but also their judgments , by following the church thus with humility , shew , that they are guided both by reason , inspiration , and examples of primitive fathers . hence st. austin sayes , we receive the holy spirit if we love the church , if we rejoice in the name of catholics , and in the catholic faith. and elsewhere , [ contra rationem nemo sobrius , &c. ] no sober man will admit an opinion against reason , no christian against scriptures , no lover of peace and unity , against the church . and this only is the guide that we say , and presently will demonstrate to be infallible . 8. now , that the final decision of all controversies in faith , can only be expected from such a guide , and consequently that all christians under pain of damnation , are obliged never to contradict this guide , and alwaies to assent when it requires , we are taught , not by reason only , but god himself also , and this in the law of moses . the whole nation of the iews , ( saith st. augustin ) was as it were one great prophet ; the policie of their church was the scheme of the christian , to the twelve princes of their families answer'd the twelve apostles , to the seventy elders the seventy disciples , to the several courts of judgement , our ecclesiastical synods , to the great sanhedrim , a general council , and to the high priest , our supreme pastor . now for our present purpose , the ordinance that god made in the jewish church for deciding controversies about the law , ran thus , if there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgement , &c. ( that is , as we find in 2 chron. 19. 8. between blood and blood , between law and commandment , statutes and iudgements , then shalt thou arise and get thee into the place which the lord thy god shall chuse : and thou shalt come to the priests and levites , and to the iudge that shall be in those dayes , and enquire , and they shall shew thee the sentence of iudgement , and thou shalt do according to the sentence which they shall shew thee , &c. thou shalt not decline from the sentence to the right hand or to the left . the man that will do presumptuously , and will not hearken to the priest , or unto the iudge , even that man shall die , and thou shalt put away the evil from israel . upon those words in this passage [ unto the iudge that shall be in those daies ] ainsworth , out of the rabbins , observes , that if the high synedrion had determin'd of a matter , & after another synedrion rose up , which ( upon reasons seeming good unto them ) disannulled the former sentence , then it was disannull'd , and sentence passed according as seemed good to those later ; so that the present authority was alwaies to take place , and no appeals to be made from it . for if any disputes against the sentence of living speaking iudges , upon any pretence whatsoever , either of a private exposition of the law , or the authority of preceding rabbies were allow'd , there would never want contentions and schisms in the synagogue . and observe that in this obedience was implyed an assent or submission of judgment : for otherwise it would be against conscience , in case the party continued in a contrary opinion of the sense of the law. it is just so , and alwaies has been so in the catholic church : the present superiors living and speaking must conclude all controversies , their interpretation of scripture and fathers , their testimony of tradition must more then put to silence all contradiction of particular persons or churches , it must also subdue their minds to an assent , and this under the penalty of an anathema , or cutting off from the body of christ , which answers to a civil death in the law. 9. if then an obedience so indispensable was required to legal iudges , who might possibly give a wrong sentence : how secur●ly may we submit our judgements to the supream tribunal of the church : and how justly will an anathema be inflicted on all gainsayers of an authority that we are assured shall never mislead us ? and the grounds of this assurance , which the preacher is not yet perswaded of , are now to be discoverd . 10. the true grounds of the churche● infallibility are the words of truth , the infallibility of the promises of christ , the eternal wisdom of the father . these promises are the true palladium , not of the conclave , but of the vniversal church : nor do we think doctor pierce such an vlisses , as to apprehend he can steal it away . 11. we do not deny however , that infallibility and omniscience are ( as he saies ) incommunicable attributes of god : it is god alone to whose nature either lying or being deceived are essentially contrary , because he is essentially immutable as in his being , so in his vnderstanding and will. yet the immutable god can preserve mutable creatures from actual mutation : god , who is absolutely omniscient , can teach a rational creature 〈◊〉 truths necessary or expedient to be known : so that , though a man have much ignorance ▪ yet he may be in a sort omniscient within a determinate sphere , he may be exempted from ignorance or error in teaching such special verities as god will have him know , and has promised he shall faithfully teach others . our saviour , as man , was certainly infallible , and as far as was requisite , omniscient too : so were the apostles likewise , whose writings protestants acknowledge both to be infallible , and to contain all truth necessary to salvation . good doctor , do you think it a contradiction that god should bestow an infallibility , as to some things , on a creature ? what did our saviour give st. peter when he said , i have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not ? thus the doctor , may see what a trifling discourse he has made against gods church . 12. now , the infallible promises of our lord to his church , by vertue of which she has alwaies been believed to be in our sense infallible , follow : at least as many of them as may suffice for the present purpose . 1. our saviour has promised his apostles , that he would be present with them alwaies to the end of the world : therefore since not any of them out-liv'd that age , this infallible promise must be made good to their successors . 2. he has promised that when two or three of them meet together in his name , he will be in the midst of them ; surely to direct them . therefore much more when the whole church is representatively assembled about his businesse onely . 3. he has promised that he will lead his church into all truth ; at least all that is necessary or but expedient for them to know . 4. he has promised , that against his church , built upon st. peter , the gates of hell ( that is heresie , say the fathers ) shall not prevail : therefore it shall be infallibly free from heresie . 5. he has commanded that , whoever shall not obey his church , shall be ( cut off from his body ) as a heathen and a publican : therefore anathema's pronounced by his church are valid . our lord indeed speaks of decisions made by a particular church in quarrels among brethren : therefore if disobedience to such decisions be so grievously punished , what punishment may we suppose attends such as are disobedient to decisions of the universal church , ( call'd by the apostle , the pillar and ground of truth ) made for the composing of publick debates about the common faith. 6. to conclude , the belief of the churches vnity is an unchangable article of our ●reed : therefore certainly the onely effectual mean to preserve unity , ( which is an un-appealable , and infallible authority ) shall never be wanting in the church . 13. all these texts and prmises we by the example of the holy fathers and authority of tradition , produce as firm grounds of an infallibility in the universal church representative , which has an influence over the souls of men● requiring much more than an external submission , which yet is all that protestants will allow to the most authentic general councils . we hope now doctor pierce will not fly to mr. chillingworths miserable shift , and say that all these promises are only conditional and depending on the piety of church-governors : for this is contrary to the assertion of all antiquity , which from these promises argues invincibly against all heretics and schismatics , who might otherwise , on mr. chillingworths ground , alledge ( as the donatists did ) that the church by the sins of some had lost all her authority , and that gods spirit was transplanted from her into themselves . nor yet that he will use the plea of several other protestant writers somwhat more discreet , who are willing to allovv those promises absolute , and to belong also to the guides of the church som or other , that they shall in all ages continue orthodox , but not alvvayes to the more superior , or to the greater bodies of these assembled in councils ( because , thus , they see their cause will suffer by it . ) but this plea also is utterly unsatisfying ; for whenever the superior and subordinate church-officers , or ecclesiastical courts shall contradict or oppose one another , here the superior questionlesse is to be our guide ( otherwise we have no certain rule to know who is so ) and therefore to these , not the other , in such cases , must bel●ng these promises , where they cannot possibly agree to both . 14. these promises now being yea and amen , the doctor must not seem to make our lord passe for a deceiver , but apply them to his english protestant church , since he will not allow them to the catholic , for to some church they must be applyed . but let him consider withal , he must condemn st. gregory , who professed that he venerated the four first general councils of the catholic church , as the four gospels . he must condemn constantine , who , in the first council of nice professed , that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c ] whatever is decreed in the holy councils of bishops , that ought to be attributed to th● divine will in a word he must by condemning all the general councils of gods church , condemn likewise ( which is more dangerous ) the act of parliament , 1 eliz. for manifest it is that all the fathers in those councils did pronounce many anathema's against all those that would not submit to a belief of such and such decisions of theirs , in some of which were new expressions not extant in scripture , but devised by the fathers then present , as the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. now i ask doctor pierce , were those anathema's lawfull ? were they valid ? or will he say , those first councils ( to which he professes assent ) usurped an authority in this , not of right belonging to them ? if those anathema's were valid , then the councils had a just authority to oblige christians to an internal belief of verities declared by them , as the sence of divine revelation , and this , under the penalties of being separated from christ : and can any authority but such as is infallible lay such an obligation upon consciences under such a penalty ? but , if those anathema's were illegal and invalid , then were the fathers both of those councils and of all others , who still followed the same method , not only impostors , but most execrable tyrants over the souls of men . 15. these deductions surely are more effectual to demonstrate the churches infallibility , than any of his quotations can be against it : here we have expresse scripture , and universal consent of antiquity : nay here we have the concession of the more judicious writers of the church of england ( at least before their late restitution : ) who seem to agree that in the controversies between our church and theirs , they would certainly submit to a future lawful general council : now , could they lawfully make such a promise and think such a council could misguide them ? therefore truly i cannot have the uncivility to judge , that , when one of your 39. articles declares , that some general councils have err'd , the meaning should be ● that any legal , legitimate general council has err'd , but only som councils that som roman catholics esteem to be general , concerning which the church of england is of another opinion : and if this be the meaning , the breach made by it may be curable . 16. now whereas the doctor alleages , as against this point , the concession of baronius , &c. that novatianism was hatch'd and continued two hundred years at rome . i cannot devise how to frame an objection out of it : can no church be orthodox , if heretics rise and continue in the same city ? is the english church a quaking church , because quakers first began , and still encrease at london ? as for novatians at rome he cannot deny but they were so far from being members of the roman church , that they were continually esteem'd heretics and condemned by it . 17. the like we say touching the donatists . indeed his objecting the arians has more appearance of reason and sense [ ingemuit orbis , &c. ] the world ( says . st. hierom ) sadly groaned and was astonished to see it self on a sudden becom arian , , that is , after the council of ●riminum . but how was it arian , if it groaned ? &c. for it could not be really arian against its will. but st. hierom uses this expression , because the great council of ariminum had seem'd to favour the arian party against the catholics . and true it was , that catholic bishops were indeed persecuted , and many banish'd : but not one of them chang'd their profession of the nicene faith , unlesse you will accuse pope liberius , who for a while dissembled it , and presently repented . besides , the canons at first made in that council were perfectly orthodox , but afterwards by the emperors tyranny , and subtilty of two or three arian bishops a creed was composed , wherein though the nicene faith was not sufficiently expressed , . yet there was not one article perfectly arian , but capable of a good sense : to which may catholic bishops out of fear subscribed , yet to nothing but what in their sense was true ▪ though defective in delivering all the truth ; but presently after , being at liberty , both themselves and all the rest renounced . and after all , there remained but three years of persecution , for after that time the arian emperour constantius dyed . 18. next concerning the objected heresy of the millenaries : it is very unjust and a great irreverence in him to charge upon the primitive church the sayings of two fathers : and though one of them says , all that were purely orthodox , ( that is , such as he esteemed so , because they were of his opinion ) held that doctrin● yet he thereby shews , that his own opinion was not universally embraced by the church : but the truth is , there was a double millenary opinion , the one that interpreted the reign of martyrs with christ for a thousand years , in base , sensual pleasures , banquets , and women : this was the doctrine of the unclean heretick cerinthus , as eusebius and st. augustin relate : against this st. dionysius bishop of alexandria wrote an elegant book , as st. hierom affirms : and it is most deservedly detested by the church . but there was another opinion , that the martyrs should reign a thousand years with christ in all spiritual delights , and ravishing consolation , in a blessed conversing with him : and this opinion might not unbecom papias , st. ireneus , and st. iustin martyr : for st. augustin and st. hierom both professe themselves unwilling to censure it , neither can the doctor , i believe , shew that it was ever condemned by the church . 18. to his last objection touching the communicating of infants , it is granted that in st. augustin and pope innocent's time , and many years after , such was the common practice of the church to communicate them sacramentally ( but withal take notice , it was onely in one species . ) again , it is confessed that from that text [ nisi mand●caveritis carnem ▪ &c. ] st. augustin , &c. argue a necessity that infants should participate of the flesh and blood of our lord , but this not sacramentally , but spiritually , by such a participation as may be had in baptism . this appears first , from the constant doctrine of st. augustin , &c. the whole church affirming that , baptism alone may suffice to the salvation of infants . 2. from his interpreting his own meaning , in a sermon quoted by st. beda and gratina . his words are these , none ought by any waies to doubt but that every christian by being made a member of christ in baptism , thereby becomes partaker of the bo●y and blood of our lord , and that he is not estranged from a communion of that bread and chalice , though being setled in the vnity of christs body , he should depart out of this world , before he really eat of that bread , and drink of that chalice . for he is not deprived of the participation and benefit of the sacrament , whensoever that is found in him which is signified by the sacrament . 19. that therefore which the church since , and particularly the council of trent alter'd in this matter , was nothing at all touching belief : for all catholicks this day believe st. augustin's doctrine in that point , but onely an external practise of the church : and this was done out of a wonderful reverence to those holy mysteries , which by fr●quent communions of infants could not escape many irreverences and inconveniencies . and many such alterations even the english church observes and justifies , both in the administring of the eucharist and baptism too . to conclude this matter : for a further proof that these two instances about the millena●y belief , and infant communion are not at all conducing to the doctors design , i will refer him to the judgment of doctor ferne , of some weight no doubt with him , who expresly saies , and proves by reasons not unlike these , that nothing can be concluded by those two instances to the prejudice of the whole church , as if thereby might be proved that the whole church , vniversally , and in all the members of it , may be infected with error in points of concernment or prejudicial to the faith. chap. x. of prayer for the dead . it s apostolic antiquity . purgatory necessarily supposed in it . the doctor 's objections answer'd . 1. having treated so largely of the preachers two pretended noveltys ; 1. the primacy of iurisdiction of the see apostolic ; and 2. the infallability of the church in her general councils , i might rationally enough neglect examining the following particular dogma's which he likewise charges with novelty , and betake by self to the point of schism : because if the church have a spiritual obliging iurisdiction , taking its original from the chair of st. peter ; and again if what the proposes to us to be believed , she proposes validly under the penalty of being separated from christ , since it is manifest that she so proposes the said particular doctrins , not in her councils onely , but universal practise , wherein her infallability is with an equal aut●ority demonstrated ; they ought without contradiction be submitted to : neverthelesse having some reason to doubt that in case any of his novelties be omited , he , or at least some of his over-credulous readers will impute such an omission to a difficulty in disproving him , i must be content to take a trouble on me , which is therefore only necessary , because many protestants are unreasonable . 2. his third pretended novelty , is the doctrin of purgatory , which he says , we have from origen , or at the farthest from tertullian , and he from no better author than the arch-heretic montanus . nor does bellarmin mend the matter by deriving it from virgil , tully , or plato 's gorgias . 3. it would have been a great courtesie both to his hearers and readers , if he had inform'd them why he singled out a speculative point touching purgatory , and omitted one of far greated importance , because obliging to practise also , which is prayer for the dead . his way of proceeding , doubtlesse does not want a mystery : and he must give me leave to answer his novelty of purgatory by speaking scarce any thing at all of it , but only telling him nakedly the churches doctrin about it ; and by insisting on the confessed antiquity , apostolic antiquity of prayer for the dead ; which being cleared , i defie all his learning and skill , unlesse he can disprove this , to deny or so much as question on the other . 4. now the doctrin of the church concerning purgatory and prayer for the dead is contained in this decree of the council of trent , there is a purgatory : and souls detained there are helped by the suffra●es of the faithfull , ( that is , by prayers and alms ) and most especially by the most acceptable sacrifice of the altar . by which definition the church obliges all catholicks no farther than simply to believe that there is a place or state of souls in which they are capable of receiving help or ease by prayers , &c. the council tells us nothing of the position of this place , nor what incommodities souls find in it , nor whether there be fire , &c. which are points that st. augustin says he could not resolve : on the contrary , it forbids , ( at least out of the schools ) all curious subtile questions concerning it , all discourses which are not for edification . 5. having represented the churches doctrine , i will next transcribe the form of her prayers for the dead , extant in the canon of the masse . remember likewise , o lord , thy servants who have gone before us with the sign of faith ( i. e. baptism , ) and repose in the sleep of peace . we beseech thee , o lord , mercifully grant to them , and to all that rest in christ , a place of refreshment , light and peace , through christ our lord. and after the canon , we beseech thee , o lord , absolve the soul of thy servant from all chains of his sins , to the end , that in the glory of the resurrection , he may respire by a new life among the saints and elect , through christ our lord. now if it can be demonstrated that by the universal practise of the primitive church , such prayers as these were made for the dead ; it unavoidably follows , that the souls for whom they are made , are neither in heaven nor h●ll : and if so , where are they , doctor pierce ? speak like an honest man. 6. to demonstrate this , let him view narrowly these passages of the holy fathers , before , and during the space of the first four general councils . st. denis the areopagite , ( or whoever was author of the book of the ecclesiastical hierarchy , and who by confession of protestants , liv'd within the second century after the apostles ) declares that the priest does demand from the divine goodnesse for the person departed , a pardon of all sins through human frailty committed by him , and that he may be conducted into the light and region of the living , into the bosoms of abraham ▪ isaac , and jacob , into a place from which grief , sadnesse , and mourning it banished . and presently after he testifies ▪ that what he commits to writing concerning this prayer pronounced by the priest for the dead , he received by tradition from his divine teachers ( the apostles . ) 7. next tertullian , let the faithful widdow , saies he , pray for the soul of her husband , and make an oblation in the anniversary day of his death , begging for him refreshment and part in the first resurrection . and , to prevent the preachers objection , that the father learned this from the arch-heretick montanus , let him answer for himself ; we make , saies he , anniversary oblations for the dead , and for the [ natalitia ] of the martyrs . and presently he adjoynes , concerning these and the like observances , if you require the authority of scriptures , you will not find any : tradition shall be alleged to you for the author , custom for the confirmer , and faith the observer . 8. after him follows his schollar blessed st. cyprian , the bishops ( saies he ) that went before us , have ordain'd that not any one of our brethren at his death shall name in his will for an executor , or guardian , any ecclesiastical person ; and if any one shall do otherwise , that no oblation should be made for him , and that the sacrifice should not be celebrated for him at his death : for such a one deserves not so much as to be named at the altar in the priests prayer . 9. eusebius relates that , at the obsequies of the emperor constantine , the people and clergy unanimously sent up prayers to god , not without tears and great groanings for the soul of the emperor . likewise epiphanius disputing against the heretick aerius , reckons this among his heresies ( as st. augustin likewise does ) that he denyed prayers and oblation for the dead . in opposition whereto he saies , prayers made for the dead profit them , though they do not blot out [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] entirely all ( mortal ) sins . and again , who shall now have the ●oldnesse to dissolve the statute of his mother ( the church ) or the law of his father ? ( which father he there interprets to be the holy trinity . ) moreover st. chrysostome , it is not in vain that the apostles have instituted this law , that during the celebration of the dreadful mysteries , commemoration should be made of the dead : for they knew that great benefit and profit would thereby accrew unto them . and yet more expresly in another place , we must ( saith he ) give our help and assistance to sinners departed , by our prayers , supplications , alms , and oblations : for these things were not rashly and groundlesly devised : neither is it in vain , that in the divine mysteries we make mention of these who are dead ; and approaching to the altar , addresse our prayers for them to the lamb placed there who took away the sins of the world : but we do this to the end that some comfort and refreshment may come to them thereby . neither is it in vain that he who assists at the altar at the time when the dreadful mysteries are communicated , cries out , pray for all that are dead in christ , and for those who celebrate their memorials . for were it not that such commemorations were profitable to them , such things would not be spoken . for the matters of our religion are no sport : no , god forbid . these things are perform'd by the order and direction of gods spirit . 10. true it is , that antiently in the publick liturgies a commemoration was made even of the greatest saints , yes , and prayers were made for them : but yet not such prayers as were made for the imperfect . but , since all future things may be the subject of our prayers , it may become our charity to pray for accession of glory to saints already glorified , but which at the resurrection shall be in a yet better state. and therefore when st. austin saies , it is an injury to pray for a martyr , since we ought rather to commend our selves to his prayers : he means such prayers , as we make for imperfect christians , that is , for remission of their sins , refreshment , &c. 11. now , tho' some such prayers extant in the holy fathers did regard the day of judgment , and the glory ensuing ; yet withal , that they thought , to some souls a present refreshment did accrew in the intermediat condition , is evident both by the foresaid testimonies , and many more that may be added : as where st. a●brose saies , he would never cease his intercessions for the soul of the dead emperor ? till he found a deliverance by them . this is so apparent both out of the fathers and ancient liturgies , that bishop forbes , spalato , and other protestant writers , do acknowledge it , and refuse not to assent to the ground of such a practise . the words of spalato are these : there would be no absurdity if we should confesse , that some lighter sins which have not in this life been remitted ( quoad culpam ) as to the guilt or fault , may be forgiven after death , and this somtimes a little after the departure of the soul , &c. by vertue of the churches intercession . 12 ▪ it cannot be denied , but that there are among the holy fathers great varieties of opinions touching some particular circumstances regarding the state of souls after death , and at the present some differences there are between the roman and greek church . in which notwithstanding it will appear to any who will compare them , that the roman doctrin is far more moderate , receiveable , and approaching to the grounds of protestants , than that of the eastern church . but however , it is without all controversy , that all churches who professed christianity before the reformation , do agree unanimously in the practice of praying for the dead , so as to beg forgiveness of sins , a bettering of their state , an asswagement of their sufferings , &c. which practise they esteem not a voluntary offering , but a duty , to a necessary performance of which , charity obligeth all christians . and therefore english protestants cannot be excused for their neglect of this duty , especially consisidering that the doctrin upon which this practice is grounded , is not mentioned at all among those points which they account novelties in the roman church . on the contrary , the more learned among them have and do , though not in expression , yet in sense agree with bishop andrews , conceding in his reply to cardinal perron , — that for offering doth he not mean here , for offering the christian sacrifice of the holy eucharist for them , for what is more manifest in antiquity , than this ? ] and prayer for the dead , little is to be said against it . no man can deny , but it is very antient . since then the church cannot be thought , from the most antient times thereof , to have offered up to god all her prayers in all ages pro defunctis in vain , methinks i cannot here , but in this respect also commiserate the condition of those poor souls , who depart hence un-owned by that church , and without any share in her prayers ( which only like a true mother , is so sollicitous and carefull a supplicant not only for her living , but also deceased children ) and who , after a life here not so well spent , seeing themselves going hence only with an inchoated repentance , & an unperfect reformation , and very unprepared to be immediatly entertained in that place of bliss , and glorious society into which no impure thing shall enter , yet are content rather to lose the benefit of the daily prayers and oblations for them of this careful mother , than to render themselves capable thereof by returning into her communion . and surely much more uncomfortable must such a death be , that is void of the hopes of any such assistance , than theirs is , who , departing hence in the bosom of the church , and in this blessed communion of saints with the request of st. austins dying mother in their mouth , illud vos rogo , ut ad domine altare memineritis mei : this i beg of you , that at the altar of our lord ye make remembrance of me : are sure to enjoy the last aid of this pious charity , and also the yet more efficacious sacrifice of the altar to be frequently offered to god in their behalf . 10. lastly , to omit particular quotations out of the antient public liturgies of the church , that of st. iames acknowledged by the second general council , that of st. basil , st. chrysostom , &c. in every one of which are expresse prayers and oblations for the dead , demanding pardon of their sins , refreshment of their sufferings , &c. i will conclude with a full convincing testimony of st. augustin , whose words are these , that by the prayers of the holy church , and saving sacrifice , as likewise by alms expended for their souls , our departed brethren are helped , that god may deal with them more mercifully than their sins deserve , not to be doubted . for this the universal church observes as a tradition of our fathers , that for those who are dead in the communion of the body and blood of our lord , prayers should be made , when at the holy sacrifice their names are in their due place rehearsed , and that it should be signified that the offering is made for them . and when out of an intention of commending them to gods mercy , works of charity and alms are made , who will doubt that these things help towards their good , for whom prayers are not in vain offered to god ? it is not therefore to be doubted but that these things are profitable for the dead ▪ yet only such as before their death have lived so , as that these things may profit them after death . and again , for martyrs the sacrifice is offered as a thanksgiving , and for others as a propitiation . 14. the doctor cannot but know in his conscience , ( for he is no stranger to the fathers ) what a great volume may be written to confirm this : and that not one expression can be quoted against it . therefore whereas he said without any ground , that tertullian borrowed from montanus ; i would ask him , from whom did he borrow the omission of this charitable duty to the dead , but from the heretie aerius ? nor is this to be considered as a voluntary courtesie don them , which without any fault may be omited . on the contrary st. epiphanius will tell him , the church does these things necessarily , having received such a tradition from the fathers . and st. augustin , we must by no means omit necessary supplications for the souls of the dead : for whether the flesh of the dead person lye here , or in another place , repose ought to be obtained to his spirit . 15. if these souls were believ'd to be in heaven would it not be ridiculous ? if in hell would it not be impious to offer the dreadful sacrifice , to make supplications ▪ to be at charge in alms for the obtaining them repose , pardon of their sins , refreshment of their sufferings , a translation into the region of light and peace , and a place in the bosom of abraham ? but if they be neither in heaven nor hell , where are they then ? he cannot deny a third place , unless he thinks them anihilated : he will not say that third place is purgatory , because the church calls it so . but suppose the church dispence with him for the name ; i would to god he would accept of such a dispensation ; one pretence of schism would quickly be removed . 16. to conclude ; if all the liturgies of the church , all the fathers have not credit enough with him to perswade that this is no novelty ▪ yet greater antiquity for it he may find in the iewish church : an expresse testimony for which we read in the book of macchabees : he will say it is not canonical : at least let him acknowledge it not to be a romance : and however , the universal tradition and practise of the synagogue will justifie it . from the jews no doubt plato borrowed this doctrin , and from plato cicero , and from both virgil. nay even natural reason will tell him , that heaven , into which no unclean thing can enter , is not so quickly and easily open to imperfect souls , as to perfect : nor have we any sign , that meerly by dying , sinful livers becom immediatly perfect . 17. to fill his learned margins , he quotes certain contradictors of bellarmin , as the bishop of rochester , polydor virgil , suarez , and thomas ex albiis ; but since both bellarmin himself and all his contradictors agree with the church , in contradiction to the preacher , that there is a purgatory ; what other inducement could he have to mention them ▪ unlesse it were that his readers might see what his hearers could not , that he was resolved to pretend , but was not able indeed to produce any thing to purpose against the catholic church ? chap. xi . of transubstantiation , or a substantial presence of our lords body in the sacrament . iustified by the authorities of the fathers , &c. the preacher's objections answer'd . 1. the three next supposed novelties of the catholic church all regard the most holy sacrament . that blessed mystery , which was instituted to be both a symbal and instrument , to signifie and to operate vnity , is , by the cunning of the devil , and malicious folly of men , becom both the work and cause of dis-union . 2. touching this subject the first of the three novelties the doctor says is transubstantiation so far from being from the beginning that it is not much above four hundred years old , that it was first beard of in the council of lateran . for in pope nicholas the second's time the submission of berengarius imports rather a con — then transubstantiation . but evident it is , that it was never taught by our saviour , since he in the same breath wherewith he pronounced , this is my blood , explain'd himself by calling it expresly the fruit of the vins . and there needs no more to make the romanists ashamed of that doctrin , than the concession of aquinas , who says , that it is impossible for one body to be locally in more places than one : from whence bellarmin angrily infers , that it equally implies a contradiction for one body to be so much as sacramentally in more places than one . 3. in order to the giving some satisfaction touching this matter , i will , as before , set down the churches doctrin concerning this most holy sacrament , which will extend it self to all his three pretended novelties . in the profession of faith compiled by pope pius iv . out of the council of trent it is said , i profess that in the masse there is offered to god a true proper and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and dead : and that in the most holy sacrament of the eucharist there is truly and substantially the body and blood ▪ together with the soul and divinity of our lord iesus christ : and that there is a conversion ( or change ) of the whole substance of bread into his body , and of wine into his blood : which change the catholic church calls transubstantiation . moreover i confess that under one of the species alone whole and entire christ , and a true sacrament is received . 4. and if he will needs have it so , let it be granted , that the latin word transubstantiation begun commonly to be received among catholics at the council of lateran : though there was a greek expression exactly importing as much [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] as old as his beginning , that is , in the time of the first general council . but for god's sake let not a new word drive him out of god's church , as the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did the arians . he may observe with cardinal perron that the church only says , the change made in the holy sacrament is usually called transubstantiation : so that on condition he allow a real substantial change , the word it self shall not hinder us from being good friends . 5. the doctor sees now what our church holds concerning this point . she delivers her mind sincerely , candidly , ingenuously . but if i should ask him what his church holds , it would cost him more labour to give a satisfactory answer than to make ten such sermons . 6. there are among christians only four ways of expressing a presence of christ in the sacrament . 1 ▪ that of the zuinglians , socinians , &c. who admit nothing at all real here ; the presence , say they , is only figurative or imaginary : as we see bread broken and eaten , &c. so we ought to call to mind that that christs body was crucified , and torn for us , and by faith ( or a strong fancy ) we are made partakers of his body , that is , not his body , but the blessings that the offring his body may procure . 2. that of calvin and english divines , who usually say , as calvin did , that in the holy sacrament our lord offers unto us not onely the benefit of his death and resurrection , but the very body it self in which he dyed and rose again : or , as king iames , we acknowledge a presence no lesse true and real then catholics do ; only we are ignorant of the manner : [ of which it seems he thought that catholics were not . ] so that this presence is supposed a substantial presence , but after a spiritual manner : a presence not to all , but to the worthy receivers : offred perhaps to the unworthy , but only partaken by the worthy : a presence not to the symbols , but the receivers soul only : or if ( according to mr. hooker ) in some sence the symbols do exhibit the very body of christ , yet they do not contain in them what they exhibit , at least not before the actual receiving . 3. of the lutherans , who hold a presence of christs body in the sacrament as real , proper and substantial as catholics do , but deny an exclusion of bread. for bread , say they , remains as before , but to and with it the body of our lord ( every where present ) is in a sort hypostatically united : yet some among them d●ny any reverence is to be exhibited to christ , though indeed substantially present . 4. that of roman catholics , whose sense was let down before ; whereto this only is to be added , that believing a real conversion of bread into our lords body , &c. they think themselves obliged , in conformity to the ancient church , as to embrace the doctrine , so to imitate their practise in exhibiting due reverence and worship ( not to the symbols , not to any thing which is the object of sense , as calvinists slander them ; but ) to our lord himself only , present in and under the symbols . 7. now three of these four opinions , that is , every one but that of english protestants speak intelligible sense : every one knows what zuinglians , lutherans , and roman catholics mean : but theirs ( which they call a mystery ) is indeed a iargon , a linsey-wolsey stuff , made probably to sui● with any sect according to interests : they that taught it first in england , were willing to speak at least , and , if they had been permitted , to mean likewise as the catholic church instructed them , but the sacrilegious protectour in king edwards daies , and afterward the privy council in queen elizabeths , found it for their wordly advantage , that their divines should , at least in words , accuse the roman church for that doctrine which themselves believed to be true . but now , since the last restitution , if that renew'd rubrick at the end of the communion , be to be esteem'd doctrinall , then the last edition of their religion in this point is meer zuinglianism , to which the presbyterians themselves , if they are true calvinists , will refuse to subscribe . thus the new religion of england is almost become the religion of new england . 8. 〈◊〉 remains now that i should by a few authorities justifie our catholic doctrine of transubstantiation , or real substantial presence , to be far from deserving to be called a novelty of ●our hundred years standing . by catholic doctrine , i mean the doctrine of the church , not of the schools , the doctrine delivered by tradition , not ratiocination : not a doctrine that can be demonstrated by human empty philosophy . on the contrary , it may be confidently assorted , that all such pretended demonstrations are not only not concluding , but illusory , because that is said to be demonstrated by reason , which tradition tells us is above reason , and ought not to be squared by the rule of philosophy : the presence of christ in the sacrament is truly real and substantial , but withall sacramental , that is mystical , inexplicable , incomprehensible . it is a great mistake among protestants , when they argue that we , by acknowledging a conversion by transubstantiation , pretend to declare the modum conversionis . no ; that is far from the churches , or the antient fathers thoughts . for by that expression the onely signifies , the change is not a matter of fancy , but real , yet withal mystical . the fathers , to expresse their belief of a real conversion , make use of many real changes mentioned in the scripture , as of aarons rod into a serpent , of water into wine , &c. but withal they adde , that not any of these examples do fit , or properly represent the mystical change in the sacrament : sence or reason might comprehend and judge of those changes , but faith alone must submit to the incomprehensiblenesse of this . when water was turn'd into wine , the eyes saw , and the palat tasted wine , it had the colour , extension , and locality of wine ; but so is it not when bread by consecration becomes the body of christ ; for ought that sence can judge , there is no change at all : christs body is present , but without locality : it is present , but not corporally , as natural bodies are present , one part here , and another there . the quomodo of this presence is not to be inquired into , nor can it without presumption be determin'd . this is that which the church calls a sacramental , mystical presence . but , that this presence is real and substantial , a presence in the symbols or elements , and not only in the mind of the worthy receiver , the fathers unanimously teach : and indeed if it were not so , none could receive the body of christ unworthily , because according to protestants , it is not the body of christ , but meer bread that an impenitent sinner receives : and st. pauls charge would be irrational , when he saies , such an one receives judgment to himself in that he does not discern the body of our lord. besides , if the change be not in the elements , but in the receivers soul , what need is there of consecration ? what effect can consecration have ? why may not another man or woman as well as a priest , administer this sacrament ? what hinders that such a presence may not be effected in the mind every dinner or supper , and as well when we eat flesh , and drink any other liquor besides wine at our own table , as at that of our lord. 9. now , whether their doctrine or ours be a novelty , let antiquity judge . if i should produce , as he knows i may , hundreds of testimonies that by conversion a change is made of the bread into the body , and wine into the blood of christ , he would think to escape by allowing a change to be made , but only in the act of worthy receiving . therefore i will onely make use of such authorities as demonstrate this change to be made before communicating ; that it remains , when the sacrament is reserved , and that immediately after consecration , before any participation of the symbols , both the priest and people did perform an act of adoration to christ , beleived to be really and substantially , though mystically , present . 10. in all ancient liturgies ( as blondel himself , though a huguenot , confesses ) the prayer in the consecration of the elements was , that god would by his holy spirit sanctifie the elements , whereby the bread may be made the body , and the wine the blood of our lord. and , that before communicating , whilst it was on the altar , it was esteem'd and worshiped as the true body of our lord , st. chrysostome will witnesse , let us , saith he , who are citizens of heaven , imitate but even the barbarous magi , ( who worshipped our lord an infant , &c. ) thou seest him not in the manger , but on the altar . thou dost not see a woman holding him , but the priest standing by him , and the spirit with great vertue hovering over these ( mysteries ) proposed . thou not only seest the body it self , as the magi did , but thou knowest also the vertue of it , &c. the same body which is the most precious and most honour'd thing in heaven , i will shew thee placed upon earth , &c. neither dost thou only see it , but touchest and eatest it , and having received it , thou returnest home with it , &c. hence optatus saith , what other thing is the altar , but the seat of the body and blood of christ. a yet more irrefragable witnesse hereof is the general council of nice , wherein ( act. l. 3. c. de divinâ mensâ ) are these words , in this divine table let us not abase our intentions so as to consider the bread and wine set before us , but raising up our mind by faith , let us understand that upon that holy table is placed the lamb of god , which takes away the sins of the world , which is unbloodily immolated by the priest , and receiving his precious body and blood , let us truly believe that these are the symbols of our redemption . and , that the elements , once consecrated and after reserved , yet remain the body of christ though not participated , st. cyril of alexandria expresly ●ectifies , i hear ( saith he ) there are others who affirm that the mystical eulogy , if any thing of it remain till another day , doth profit nothing to sanctification . bur they are mad who say these things : for christ is not alter'd , neither is his holy body changed ; but the vertue of benediction and quickning grace perpetually remains in it . and as touching ad●ration of our lord , as acknowledged substantially present on the altar , st. ambrose expresly asserts it , adore the foot-stool of his feet . therefore by the footstool is understood the earth ; and the earth the flesh of christ , which at this day also we adore in the mysteries , and which the apostles adored in our lord iesus . and from st. ambrose the same is taught as expresly by st. augustin , discoursing on the same text , adorate scabellum pedum ejus : who moreover adds , christ hath given his flesh to be eaten by us for our ▪ salvation : now no man eats this , except he first adore it . yea , moreover he saies , we do not only not sin by adoring it , but we should sin if we did not adore it , and in an epistle to honoratus , he affirms , that the rich of the earth and proud are somtimes brought to the table of our lord , and there receive of his body and blood , but they onely adore it , they are not satiated with it , because they do not imitate him ( by humility . ) for of the humble it is said , edent pauperes & saturabuntur . 11. the same may be inferr'd by the wonderfull niceness and scrupolosity observed in the primitive church in the handling , communicating and reserving these mysteries ; what a crime was it esteem'd in the primitive times , if but a crum or drop of the consecrated elements should fall to the ground ? for fear of that , till about the year six hundred they were received by the communicants not in their fingers , as among the reformed , but in the inside plain of their hands , and in a silver pipe , &c. but i will conclude this point with a brief answer to the doctors allegations . 12. whereas therefore he says , it is evident that transubstantiation wa● never taught by our saviour , since in the same breath wherewith he pronounced these words , this is my blood , he explain'd himself by calling it expresly the fruit of the vine . on the contrary i do confidently pronounce it to be evident , that those words were neither spoken by our lord in the same breath after the consecration of the chalice , nor had they any regard to the sacrament . 't is true they are mentioned by st. matthew after the consecration , but he knows that in st. luke , who promised to write 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , those words are mentioned before any consecration began , and the occasion of them is evidently the eating of the paschal supper &c. for this is his narration : when the hour was come he sate down , and the twelve apostles with him . and he said unto them with desire i have desired to eat this passeover with you before i suffer . for i say unto you , i will not any more eat thereof until it be fulfill'd in the kingdom of god. and he took the cup and gave thanks , and said , take this and divide it among your selves , for i say unto you i will not drink of the fruit of the vine , until the kingdom of god shall come . now after all this follows his own last supper , the mystical consecration and communion of his blessed body and blood. for the text thus continues , and he took bread saying , this is my body , &c. likewise also the cup after supper , saying , this cup , &c. this being the order of the words , no text can possibly with more evidence con●ute the doctor than this which himself cites : for what can be clearer , if before consecration our saviour said , he would drink no ●ore of the fruit of the vine ? then that what he drank after was not of the fruit of the vine ? but besides this , though our lord should have called it , after consecration , the fruit of the vine , as saint paul calls the other symbol bread : this does not argue against a change in their nature ; for moses his rod , after it was changed into a serpent is call'd a rod still , because it had been one [ exod. 7. 12. ] and [ io. 2. 9. ] it is said , that the master of the feast tasted the water that was made wine . 13. is not now the doctor 's insincerity evident his insincerity even in the pulpit ? has he not palpably mis-inform'd his majesty and so illustrious an auditory ? and though he should still continue to prefer st. matthews order of narration before st. lukes , yet what st. luke writes cannot possibly be applyed to the sacrament : for , though those special words , i will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine untill , &c. if they stood alone , might seem applicable to the consecrated chalice : yet those other of saint luke , i will not any more eat of this pass●over , untill , &c. cannot possibly be applyed to the consecrated element of bread : and therefore since both these sayings were manifestly intended of the same subject ; it is more than evident they were meant only of the paschal supper , and not at all of the sacrament . 14. as for bellarmins quarrel with st. thomas his affirming that one body cannot be locally in two places : and his revengeful inference , that neither then ca● they be sacramentally : all i will say hereto shall be , that if there be any quarrel on bellarmins part , which truly i do not find to be such but may very friendly be composed . yet however since it is only about a scholastical notion of locality , circumscription , &c. and it is apparent , that both these doctors held a true substantial presence of our lords body in the sacrament , as the church teaches , i will not , by troubling my self about composing the matter between them , invite the doctor hereafter to unnecessary excursions : it is only the churches doctrin that i engage my self to justifie . 15. in the last place , touching berin arius his submission , if the form were the same mentioned in the doctors margin from floriacensis , there is nothing appears in it favouring consubstantiation . certainly , it was sufficient , if he spoke sincerely , to acquit him from any suspition of holding onely a figurative presence of christ's body : and that onely was his businesse . as for his expressions that our lords body , not onely in mystery , but truth is handled , broken and chawed with the teeth of faithful communicants , unlesse they be understood sacramentally , they are far from being justifiable . and so are all the capharnaitical objections that protestants make against catholic doctrine in this matter . vve acknowledge more than a spiritual , an oral manducatian , but without any suffering or change in the divine body it self : vve acknowledge it is nourishment to us , but not after a carnal manner ; christ is not changed by digestion into our bodyes ; yet sanctifies even our bodies also , as well as our souls : because in saint gregory nyssen his expression , insinuating it self into our bodies , by an union with our lord 's immortal body , we are made partakers of immortality . chap. xii . of communion under one species-confirm'd by the practise of the primitive church in private communions . the preachers objections solved . 1. his fifth pretended novelty , imputed to the catholic church is , communion under one species , no older , saies he , then since the time of aquinas , unlesse they will own it from the manichees . but we find our saviour intended the chalice to every guest : drink all of this , saies he . and st. paul speaks as well of drinking the mystical blood , as eating the body of christ. 2. to the substance of what is here alleged , we readily subscribe . we acknowledg our saviour instituted this mystery in both kinds : that the apostles received it in both kinds : that st. paul speaks as well of drinking , &c. that most commonly in the church till a little before the times of aquinas , in the public celebration of these mysteries , the people communicated in both kinds : all this we agree to . 3. but the general tradition of the church , at least from his beginning , will not permit us to yield , that the receiving in both kinds was esteem'd by the church necessary to the essence of the communion , or integrity of the participation of christs body and blood , or that it is fitly called by him a half communion , when deliver'd and receiv'd only in one kind . on the contrary , we appeal to dr. pierces own conscience , whether , if we should yield this , we should not be overwhelm'd with the depositions of the most ancient fathers against us : as evidently appears in communions anciently practised under one kind only , and this upon many occasions : as during the times of persecution in domestic communions mention'd by tertullian , st. cyprian , and others , in which the holy eucharist was deliver'd to the faithful under the species of bread alone , and by them carried home , to be reverently participated by them , according to their particular devotions : the same was practised in communicating infants , or innocent children of more years , ( witnesse besides the said fathers , the practise of the church of constantinople mentioned by nicephorus : ) in communicating the sick , and penitents at the point of death : in communions at sea : in communions sent to other provinces , &c. 4. in all these cases the communicants were esteem'd to be partakers of ●ntire christ , nor did they think they received more of him at publick communions in the church , when the sacrament was delivered in both species , then when at home in one only . they believed it was christ entire which they received in every divided particle of the species of bread , and every divided drop of the species of wine : and that the flesh of christ could not be participated without a concomitance of his blood , nor the blood without the flesh , nor either of them without a concomitance of his soul and divinity . hence st. ambrose , christ is in that sacrament , because it is the body of christ. and the council if ephesus , that those who approach to the mystical benedictions do participate the flesh of christ , not as common meer flesh , but truly quickning flesh. and st. augustin , that christ , [ ferebatur in manibus suis ] did carry himself in his own hands : and this in a litteral sense . and st. cyril of alexandria says , by the unparted garment of christ was mystically signified , that the four parts of the world , being brought to salvation by the gospel , did divide among themselves his flesh without dividing it . for ( says he ) the only begotten son of god passing into , and , by his flesh , sanctifying the soul ●nd body of each of them severally and in particular , is in each of them entirely and undividedly , being every where one , and in no sort divided . 5 ▪ these things thus premised ( which are certain truths , and cannot by the preacher be deny'd ) since he will needs make a quarrel with the catholic church upon this subject , he must necessarily take upon him to demonstrate , 1. either , that these communions under one species , allowed and practised on so many occasions in the primitive times , were half communions , sacrilegious transgressions of the institution of our lord , contrary to the teaching of st. paul , conspiring with the heresie of the manichees , &c. and doing so , he will contradict himself , whilst he pretends half communions to be a novelty since their times . 2. or , if these practises were justifiable , and that the church had warrant and authority to do as she did , he must prove that such an authority could be extended only to private persons or fanilies , and by no means to publick congregations : that the same was a whole communion in a chamber , and but a half communion in a church : that a sick man , or one at sea , &c. broke not the institution of christ whilst he communicated under one kind , but did break it when he was in health or upon firm ground . 6. till these things be proved by him ( which will be ad graecas calindas he must of necessity grant , that here is no nove●ty at all , no change in the present catholic ●hurch as to doctrin : and that the change which is made in external disciplin , is of so great importance , that protestants ( who would not have separated from her communion ; if she had given them leave to break our saviours institution only privatly ) will renounce her , because she thinks and knows that a privat house and a church cannot make the same action both lawful and unlawful , and therfore since she had authority within doors , she cannot be deprived of it abroad . 7. nay further , doctor pierce's task does not end here : for though he should be able to prove all this , yet if this be one of the provocations , and causes of their separation , he cannot justifie that separation till they have made a tryal , whether the church will not dispence with them as to this point of discipline , and after tryal , been refused . for surely he will not esteem schism a matter so inconsiderable , as to expose themselves to the guilt of it , because others besides them are obliged and content to receive under one species , whilst themselves are left at liberty : they will not unnecessarily make tumults and divisions in the church by disputing against others , when they themselves are not concern'd . now , that such a dispensation may possibly be had , does appear , in that the church by a general council hath either given to , or acknowledged in her supreme pastor a sufficient authority to proceed in this matter according to his own prudence , and as he shall see it to be pr●fitable to the church , and for the spiritual good of those that shall demand the use of the chalice . 8. as for us catholics , we are bread up to the orders established by gods church : and being assured that our lord will not forget his promises , and consequently his church shall never mislead us to our danger , we do not think it our duty to question the churches prudence , or set up a private tribunal to censure her lawes : we are not sure we know all the reasons that induced the council of constance to confirm a practise almost generally introduced by custome before . yet some reasons we see , which truly are of very great moment for that purpose , to wit , the wonderful encrease of the numbers of communicants , and wonderful decay of their devotion : from whence could not be prevented very great dangers of irreverences and effusion oft-times of the precious blood of our lord , considering the defect of providence , and caution to be expected in multitudes , little sensible of religion . it is probable likewise that the heresie of berengarius , who acknowledged no more in the sacrament , than the meer signs of the body and blood of our lord , might induce the catholics publickly to practise what the primitive church did privatly , to the end they might thereby demonstrate , that though they received not both the signs , yet they were not defrauded of being partakers of all that was entirely contained under both the species , which was whole christ , not his body only , but also his blood , &c. chap. xiii . of the sacrifice of the masse . asserted universally by antiquity . the true doctrine concerning it explained . 1. his sixth supposed novelty ( which is the third that regards the blessed sacrament ) is the sacrafice of the masse . but how is this prov'd to be a novelty ? ipse dixit . not one text , not one quotation appears in the margin ; and why ? alas ! where should he find any ? since there 's not a father in gods church from the very apostles , but acknowledged a christian sacrifice ; nor any old heretick ever denyed it . nay , who besides himself calls it a noveltie ? i am sure dr. fulk expresly confesseth that te●tullian , cyprian , austin , hierom , and a great many more do witnesse that sacrifice , yea , sacrifice for the dead is the tradition of the apostles . and mr. ascham acknowledges that the sacrifice of the masse is so antient , that no first beginning of it can be shewed . yet dr. pierce would fain have proved it to be a novelty gladly would he have applyed to this , his from the beginning it was not so : but could not find one word in antiquitie for his purpose . however , for all that it must not be omitted . his auditors would have wonderd to hear the church accused , and the clause touching the sacrifice left out of the indictment . 2. to please therefore popular ears , he named it , as an ill thing : but coming to print his sermon , he leaves that margin empty : for what could be in the fathers to fill it ? it was not for his purpose to quote st. ignatius's saying , it is not lawful either to offer , or to immolate the sacrifice or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without the bishop : ( which , ( say the centurists ) are dangerous words , and seeds of errors ) or st. ireneus , who tells us that our lord , consecrating the mystical elements , taught us a new oblation of the new testament , which the church having received from the apostles , offers to god through the whole world. or st. cyprian , whose words are , who was more a priest of the most high god , then our lord iesus christ ? who offred a sacrifice to god the father ? and offred the very same that melchisedech had offred , that is , bread and wine , to wit , his own body and blood , &c. and commanded the same to be afterward done in memory of him . that priest therefore doth truly supply the place and function of christ , and imitates that which christ did , who undertakes to offer according as he sees christ himself offerd . in which one epistle he calls the eucharist a sacrifice , seven times , and above twenty times he affirms that the symbols are offred in it . 3. the truth is , in the writings of antiquity , the celebration of these mysteries , is scarce ever call'd by other name , but oblation , sacrifice , immolation , &c. and because the fathers may be said to speak figuratively and rhetorically , the canons also of the church , which ought to speak properly , scarce ever use any other expression . see the third among the apostolic canons ; the 58 th . canon of the council of laodicea : the 20 th . canon of the first council of a●les : the 40 th . canon of the council of cart●age : and the 18 th . canon of the first general co●ucil of nice , in which are these words , the holy synod is inform'd , that in some places deacons administer the eu●harist to priests : a thing which neither any canon nor custom hath deliver'd , that those who have no power of offering should give the body of christ to those who offer . whole volums may be transcribed to this effect : i will only therefore refer him to st. hierom on titus , and st. chrysostom on the acts , where he will find the eucharist not only a sacrifice , but a sacrifice for remission of sins , ; a sacrifice for the priest that offers ; a sacrifice for the multitude ; a sacrifice for the procuring of plenty , &c. sutably to the modern and ancient liturgies . 4. if after all this he will not allow any of these expressions in doctors , canons , liturgies , &c. to be proper and litteral , st. augustin will contradict him : who saies , presbyters and bishops are now in the church properly called [ sacerdotes ] sacrificing priests . and because the fancy which protestants have entertained against the term sacrifice , oblation , &c. proceeds from a mistake of the true sense in which the church intends it ; for ordinarily the conception of a sacrifice , is supposed to import an immolation , shedding of blood , killing , &c. and no such matter appearing here , but only a commemoration of a former real immolation and shedding of christs blood , therefore generally among all sects , divided from the church , the title of sacrifice will not be endured . 5. to prevent therefore for the future such a mis-understanding , let them be pleased to take notice that all the sacrifices of the law were shadows and types of the sacrifices of our lord , and the legal priest-hood a type of his priest-hood : but above all other sacrifices and functions of priest-hood , those were most lively figures of our lord , which were perform'd on a certain day , only once every year , for the sins of the whole congregation : in the solemn celebration of which sacrifice , besides the immolation of it on the altar , the high priest alone was appointed to carry of the blood of that victime into the most holy place within the veile , and there to sprinkle it before the propitiatory or mercy-seat . this is that sacrifice which st. paul especially applies to our lord , and shews that christ , as a victime , was once , and but once immolated on the altar of the cross for the sins of all mankind : and that for the merit of his obedience to the death even of the cross , he was raised from death , and made a priest after the order of melchisedech , a kingly priest , a priest who had power given him in heaven and earth , to apply the merits of his own sacrifice : and that the proper function of his regal priesthood , was the entring with his immolated body into the sancta sanctorum , the highest heavens , there appearing before his heavenly fathers throne , and presenting that most precious victime to him . this function of priest-hood , far more august than the immolation , he does , and will continually exercise to the end of the world. by vertue of this he is made head of the church , he has the power of sending the holy ghost , &c. and hereby he perfects redemption . 6. and withal , knowing of what infinite value and vertue this function of his priest-hood is , he has been pleased to execute , as it were by proxy , the same function on earth , that himself immediately performs in heaven . for which purpose he has instituted bishops and priests to be not only his ministers , but substitutes and vice-gerents on earth , giving them power to consecrate , and by cosecrating to place upon the altar that very body and blood which was immolated on the cross , and is now present before his father in heaven . this body and blood they sacrifice , this they offer , this they with the people participate . it is not a sacrifice of immolation , in that mistaken sense , for nothing is slain , the victime suffers nothing : it is but a commemorative sacrifice of immolation : but it is , in the most proper rigorous sence , an oblation , the very same , of the very same body and blood that our lord now offers in heaven : and the same vertue it has , the same effects it produces , propitiation , remission of sins , participation of the graces of gods holy spirit , and all blessings both spiritual and temporal . so that in a word , as under the law the legal propitiation was said to perfected by the high priests offring the blood in the most holy place : so by this oblation of christs bood in the heavenly sanctuary , perfect redemption i● obtained , and by the commemorative oblation of the same body and blood by his priests in our earthly sanctuaries , an application of the benefit and vertue of that only meritorious sacrifice once offered on the cross , is then procured unto us for remission of our sins , and the donation of all other benefits , spiritual and temporal . 7. in regard of this sublime function of the priest it is , that the holy fathers exalt his office before that of princes , yea even of angels : in this regard they call the oblation it self the most dreadful mystery ▪ at which the angels themselves assist with reverence and astonishment . to which purpose i will content my self with only one or two passages of st. chrysost●m : when the sacrifice , saith he , is brought out of the quire , christ himself the lamb of our lord immolated ; when thou shalt hear the deacons voyce crying , let us pray all in common , when thou seest the curtains and veyls of the gates drawn , then think the heavens are opened and the angels descend . and in an other place : when the priest has inv●cated the holy spirit and perfected the sacrifice full of terrour and reverence , touching and handling with his fingers him who is lord of all things , to how sublime a rank is he elevated , &c. in that time the angels assist the priest , and all the celestical powers send forth cryes of ioy , all the places about the altar are filled with quires of angels in honour of him who is offered . this we may have ground to believe , if we only consider the super-eminent greatness of the sacrifice then performed . but moreover i have heard from the report of one who learnt the story from the mouth of an admirable old man , to whom many rev●lations of divine mysteries have been revealed from heaven : how god was graciously pleased to honor him with a vision of these things , and how in the time of the sacrifice he sau suddenly appear , with as much splendor as human sight could support , a multitude of angels cloathed with white robes encompassing the altar , and having their heads enclined in the same posture , as we oft see the souldiers in the presence of the emperour . thus saint chrysostom . chap. xiv . of veneration of images . the roman-churches approved practise of it most suitable to reason . 1. the seventh novelty produced by the preacher is the worshipping of images : but it being only named , without any proofs or quotations , i will spare them too : and to shew that the term of worshipping is none of ours , but invented by protestants to render a most innocent doctrin odious , and moreover to demonstrate the no grounds such preachers as he have to accuse the catholic church of ▪ i know not what , idolatry in this matter of images , i will presume to borrow from an author ( who will not be angry with me for it ) a passage touching this point , by which he will see , that catholics do no more than every mans own reason wil justify , in the respect they give to sacred images . it is the namelesse author of an answer to mr. bagshaw's treatise of infallibility : where he will find this following passage , in which there are some glances , that regard only such furious impertinents as mr. bagshaw , which therefore i am far from thinking applyable to doctor pierce . 2. ●hus then writes that author , intending to demonstrate that in the veneration of images taught by the catholic church there is nothing at all swerving from common rea●on : give me leave , saith he , to propose to such a sober man as you are , altogether compounded of reason , some few questions . first then suppose there were represented to you while you were thinking of other matters , or talking , a picture of our lord ha●g●ng on the cross : cou●d you p●ssibly avoid the calling to mind who our lord was , and what he had done or suffered for you ? and if not being able to forbid the entrance of such thoughts into your mind on such an occasion would your reason dictate to you that you had done ill in changing your thoughts from the world to god , would you repent of it , asking pardon of god , and praying that such a tentation might never befall you a●terwards ? does your enlightned reason suggest ●his to you ? truly it i● do , i believe you are of a temper of mind , almost specifically different from all mank●●d besides , and they must change their nature before you make them of your perswasion , or church . and yours is no a common sense , if it either tell you , that by your beating down of crosses and breaking church windows , our good countrymen think more of god than they did while those remembrances were standing : or if they think less , that it is better for them to forget him . 3. to make a step further , let it he supposed that at the same time you saw before you several pictures of several persons in a contrar● manner regarded by you , as of st. peter and iudas , of our late severaign and bradshaw : or put case you had in one hand a bible , and in the other the infamous story of pantagruel : does not your common sense and reason tell you , that such pictures or books force upon you quite contrary thoughts and affections , which regard those pictures or books not simply considered , but as representing such persons , and containing such matters ? which thoughts being just , and not at all harmfull to you , and withall almost impossible to be avoided , i cannot find any reason why reason should forbid them : i am sure common sense will not . 4. if then it be according to reason , and common sense , and likewise unavoidably to admit such different thoughts : will not reason also warrant you to express outwardly by words or actions , whatever you may without any fault think inwardly ? for my part i cannot imagin any scruple in this . if then i may and must think reverently or contemptuously of the objects , i may as well speak , or behave my self externally after the same manner to them respectively ; for whatsoever is ill or good in words or actions , is so likewise in thoughts . 5. now to shew that such thoughts or affections regard not the persons only but the pictures also as representations of such persons , ask your own heart and you will find that you would not place st. peter's picture , or the king 's in an unclean , dishonest place . if any one should spit upon either of them , your heart would rise against him , and tempt you to strike him ● which it would not do , if the same contemptuous usage were shewed to the picture of iudas or bradshaw . now this is so naturally imbibed in the hearts of all mankind , that in all kings courts a respect and outward mark of reverence is requird to the chamber of presence , or chair of state : and a refusal of it , much more a contemptuous behaviour , would be criminal . to apply this to the forementioned books : you could not bring your reason to permit you to tear out a leaf of the bible for an unclean use , as you could without the least remorse do to the story of pantagruel or aesop's fables .. 6. let us now consider what kind of respect this is that we expresse to such images . comparing the images of st. peter and our sovereign's together , we find that a respectful regard is had to both , and a contemptuous usage of either would displease us : yet it is not the same kind of respect : for st. peter's image we consider as of a man that puts us in mind of heaven ann heavenly things , one highly favour'd by almighty god , a principal courtier in his kingdom , and one that by his writings and example has been a great instrument of promoting our eternal happinesse . we do not so esteem of every good king. therefore to shew the difference of our respect to each , we would choose to give st. peter's picture a place in our oratory , and the kings in our gallery . but what names to give these different respects is not easie to determin . it is plain , that which is given to the king's picture is purely a civil respect . but what shall we call that which is given to st. peters ? if we say it is religious , you will quarrel , as derogating from god. let us therefore call it a sacred veneration , or honor : for since all things , that are appointed on purpose to mind us of god , of heaven , and the salvation of our souls , we call sacred , this name may well be applyed to such a picture . but moreover , because there are not invented such variety of names as there are things , and there are far fewer sorts of outward postures of our bodys denoting respect , than there are names or words : hence it comes to passe that when we would expresse a civil and a sacred , yea a religious respect , we are forced to to use the same outward behaviour of bowing , kneeling , &c. to fathers and magistrates , which we do to god himself : yea we find in the scripture kings adored , and a prostration of bodies paid to them . yet for all this no man will suspect that thereby any dishonor was intended to god , or the honor due onely to him was paid to creatures . 7. in the next place let reason and common sense give judgement of the distinction between the respect that may be paid to the picture of st. peter , and that which ought to be paid to himself , in case he appear'd to us glorified as he is . a divine respect we pay to neither , though sometimes we use such postures as we do when we pray or worship god. it is then a sacred veneration only : but yet there are some expressions of respect which we would use to the person , that would be ridiculous to the picture , as reverently to speak to him , to beg his prayers to god for us , to ask a question , &c. 8. our last enquiry shall be into the difference of regard ( if any there be ) to our saviour's picture and st. peter's , the former representing to us him that is both god and man , the later meerly man. however we shall find that the regard to both the pictures is of the same species and nature , that is , only sacred : because a picture we never look upon , but as an instrument to put us in mind , or to call to our memories an object : and therefore it being of our own framing , is not capable of any respect beyond that which is due to so material , inferior a thing , what ever the object represented by it be . true it is , that the internal affections and thoughts occasionally raised in our minds will be infinitely different , for we shall think upon christ with adoration , love , resignation and obedience due to god only : not so of st. peter : but the pictures themselves will be treated by us as sacred pictures only , that deserve a respect proportionable : and since it is eviden● they are capable of a sinful dis-respect , consequently a due respect may be paid to them . i say ( may ) not alwaies ought to be : for then it would never be fit to put on ones hat , &c. in a room where there hangs a crucifix . 9. to sum up briefly our meaning in this whole matter : we find minds too apt to be distracted from meditating on divine things : therefore we help our selvs by such as will call to our memories , and fix our thoughts upon objects good for our souls : such are holy pictures both in times of prayer and out , we find this benefit by them . being such sacred things , we must renounce our reason , if we deny a respect may be due to them : but by honoring with an outward regard a picture , we intend only to give a testimony what respect we beat to the person or holy thing represented : and though for want of variety of postures , we shew some part of the same outward reverence to the pictures of st. peter and our lord , yet that signifies , we only venerate st. peter , as a glorious saint , yet a creature , but that we adore christ , as god : and no man that sees or knows us , can think otherwise . so that unlesse it be a fin to show outwardly what we are oblig'd to think inwardly , there is not the least fault committed . 10. and now ( mr. bagshow ) give me leave to acquaint you with your mistakes . first , this respect called by the church , honor and veneration , which we affirm may be payd to sacred images , you call worshipping of images , meerly to make in odious to your ignorant proselites ; for worship is commonly taken to be that honor which is due only to god , and which we abhor to give to images . but secondly , you give it an other name more abominable , calling it idolatry , such as god punished in the worst of pagans . once at least in your life speak your conscience : do you think , or only suspect , that we roman catholics worship false gods , and true devils ? do we consider our images , as they did their idols , to which by magical conjurations they annexed an evil spirit to do wonders , and to extort devine worship from the seduced people ? taketheed sir , how you persist in so unjust a blasphemy against gods church a time will come that you will be called to a strict account for it : it concerns you therefore to make some reparation . 11. but after all this take notice that the catholic church , though it declare that such a veneration may fitly be given to holy images , as common reason , and human nature cannot chuse but allow : yet it commands none to afford them even so much . you may be a roman catholic all you life , and never be obliged to perform any external respect to an image . there is not in catholic countries a groom or kitchin-maid so ignorant , but would rather burn an image , then afford it any honor due to god only . and shall those that think thus , and do only what human reason generally approves , and cannot hinder , be esteem'd and publisht by you the only christians in the world , fit to be thrust out of all christian kingdoms , and executed as traytors , though otherwise they be acknowledg●most faithful , peaceable men , and obedient subjects ? are you not afraid of , in quo judicio judicaveritis , judicabimini ? 12. you see sir , how sinee you will not admit of authorities to justifie the belief and practise of roman catholics , but only common sense and reason , i have complyed with you : and now in one world tell you , that you must never hope to make any sober man believe that roman catholics are idolaters , or even faulty in the matter of images , till you can demonstrate , 1. that it is unlawful to make use of our seeing faculty to put us in mind of god. 2. that he dishonors the king that shall with reverence , bare headed , and in a kneeling posture receive a letter or mandate that com●● from him . 3. that it is a contempt of god to go through a church with ones head uncovered . 4. and that it is unlawful and irreligious to make a scruple of using a leaf of the bible in the house of office. 13. for a farewel , i will conclude this point with a story , the truth whereof several gentlemen , protestants too , in this town are able to justifie . in the year 1651. a devout italian friar , being appointed to preach in the great dome at padua , the arch-bishop present , and having been informed that among his auditors there were some english protestants , who in discourse had earnestly objected ( as you do ) idolatry to catholics : he therefore that he might encounter such a scandal , made choice of the doctrine concerning images for the subject of a great part of his sermon . and when he came to that point , holding in his hand a crucifix , he could his hearers , that that image did in one glance lively represent , even to the most ignorant beholder , our lord iesus , god and man , and almost all the circumstances of his most bitter and accursed death , so patiently and willingly suffered for us . thereupon with great passion and rhetoric he magnified the love of our lord hanging on the c●oss , earnestly pressing his hearers to return a proportionable love and duty to him . and during this discourse , he often , with great reverence and tenderness of affection embraced and devoutly kissed the crucifix . having said much to this purpose , after a little pause he pursued his discourse , telling them he could not believe or suspect that any one who had heard and seen what he had said and done , could reasonably imagin that he had any intention to dishonor our lord , by that which he had done to the crucifix which represented him , much lesse that he adored it , as if he thought it a kind of god , that he put his trust in it , as expecting any good from it , as if ( he knew not what ) divinitie , vertue or sanctitie was in that carved piece of wood . notwithstanding , because he had heard that such a scandalous imputation was by some misperswaded persons laid on the church , he would then and there undeceive them . thereupon he spit upon the crucifix , threw it scornfully to the ground , and trampled it under his feet . 14. you see , mr. bagshaw , what kind of idolaters the papists are . against this idolatry , let us see what expresse scripture you can produce . this is the great crime for which there can be no expiation but oppressions , imprisonments , and gallowses . now if what hath been here said give you no satisfaction , in case you have a mind to reply , do not practise your old way of snatching a phrase or expression out of a single author , a school-man or controvertist , making the whole church answerable for one mans indiscretion . but search what the church her self has declared in the council of trent : imagines christi , &c. in templis praesertim retinendae , &c. images of christ , &c. ought to be reteined in churches especially , and due honor and veneration exhibited to them , not that there is believed any divinity or vertue in them , for which they ought to be worshipped , or that they are to be petitioned for any thing , or any confidence to be repos'd in them , but because the honor exhibited to them is referred to the prototypes they represent . dispute against this as well as you can ; and be assured you shall either be answered , or told you are unconquerable . chap. xv. the roman churches prudence in restraining the too free use of scripture from the unlearned . the miseries of this kingdom justly ascribed to a defect in such prudence . of prayers not in a vulgar tongue ; the causes and grounds thereof . that practise not contrary to st. paul. i. doctor pierce his next ( which is a double ) novelty , regards not any doctrines , but only a point of discipline in the church , which is , the with-holding scripture from the vulgar , and practising public devotions in an unknown tongue . concerning the former , he saies , the scriptures were written in hebrew , the mother-tongue of the iew : and in greek , a tongue most known to eastern nations : and afterwards were translated into the dalmatick by st. hierom , into the gothick by vulphilas , into the arminian by chrysostom , &c. and the vulgar latin was anciently the vulgar language of the italians , &c. 2. truly the doctor has , if it be well consider'd , made choice of a very proper season to renew a quarrel against the roman church , upon this point , and to endeavour the engaging his majesty in it , as if the calamities already hapned , both to the royal family , and the whole nation , were either too little , or not to be imputed chiefly to that error . he , and all christendom , has seen the blessed effects that this prostituting scripture to the passions and lusts of the rude and common people of all conditions , ages and sexes , has wrought the last twenty years in this kingdom . what was it but scripture ( as it was used , and of which ill use themselves were the first causes , and hereafter will never be able to prevent ) that justified discontents against the government , both civil and ecclesiastical ; that put swords and guns into the hands of subjects against their kings , and all that were faithful to them ; that dissolved the entire frame of the kingdom ; that encourag'd men to plunder , and all manner of rapines ; that arraign'd and murther'd our last most excellent king , that endanger'd his now living son , our most gracious kings life , and forced him into a long necessitous banishment ; that has revived and given strength to old and new monsters of heresies , to the astonishment of man-kind , some of which are no where else to be seen , and the rest in no where place so venomous , as in england : let but the doctor remember how much mischief the perverse interpretation of this one text , which none but the ignorant could mistake , produc't in this nation : having a form of godlinesse , but denying the power thereof how did this ring in their ears , and stir them up to reject and hate all set-forms of prayer ! how , with this text alone , often repeated , and industriously enlarged , and zealously apply'd by the holy lecturers , were their very hearts set on fire to burn the grand idol of the common prayer book ! and yet , after all this , the doctor makes or renews quarrels with the roman catholic church , because she is unwilling , by imitating them , to give a birth from her bowels to such mischiefs as these . 3. yet cannot be deny'd , that doctor pierce was subtile , for having a design ( in recompence of the service roman catholicks have done them ) to expose them to the common rage of all these monsters , he could not make choice of a subject more proper for his purpose than this , in which alone they were all interessed , not for the good they reap by scripture , but because without it , they would not have the advantage to do half so much mischief . 4. yet must he not think he can so blind mens eyes , but they know well enough that english protestants are in their very souls grieved , that 't is now too late for them to e●deavor how they may imitate both the prudence and charity of catholic churches in the dispensing of scripture . our pastors do not , as he wrongfully seems to charge them , forbid the translation of scripture into vulgar tongues , since there is scarce any nation but hath it . there are catholic translations of the scripture into english , french , dutch , italian , spanish , &c. for the use of those of the laity , who are by their spiritual guides judged such , as that they may reap benefit and no harm by the reading thereof . and what more doth the preacher shew in the practise of the ancient times , in saying that the holy scriptures were then translated into the dalmatick tongue by st. hierom , then i shew in justification also of the later times ( which he would here condemn ) in saying as truly , that the holy scriptures are also found translated long ago in wicliffs the reformers time , by the allowance and authority of the catholic church ( of which thus dr. f●lk ) that the scriptures were extant in english both before and after wicliffs time , and not of his translation , beside your conjecture out of li●d●ood , it is manifestly proved by so many ancient ●riters copies of the english bible differing in ●●anslation , yet to be shewed , of which wicleffs translation could be but one . or in saying , that the same holy scriptures have been translated also of late , since luthers , a second reformer's time , with the allowance of the same church catholic , by the industry of the rhemish divines . but catholic governors , knowing how impossible it is for ignorant persons to understand it , and for passionate minds to make good use of it , esteem it more conduceing to their edification and the common peace , that such easily misled soul● should be instructed in their du●ies , both as christians and subjects , by plain catechisms and instructions prudently and sufficiently , with all plainnesse gather'd out of scripture , then that the bible should be put into their hands , a book , the tenth part whereof scarce concerns them to know , and in which the several points wherein they are concern'd are so dispersed in several places , so variously , and somtimes so obscurely , and so dubiously expressed , that all the learning and subtilty of doctors , since it was written till these daies , have been exercised in enquiring , comparing , discussing several texts , and clearing the true doctrine of them fit for the conception of vulgar capacities . the whole direction , necessary to govern pastors in their permiting others to read the holy scripture● , is fully and excellently containd in that on : text of the second epistle of st. peter , 3. 16. wherein ( the epistles of st. paul ) there are certain things hard to be understood , which the unlearned and unstable pervert ( as also the other scriptures ) to their own perdition . two sorts of rea●ers are here plainly forbidden by the apostle ; for certainly none o● them who we know are apt to pervert the scriptures , should be permitted to read them . consider then how far these two words reach , unlearned and unstable : i doubt , to ninety nine of every hundred in england : which if admitted , not above one in a hundred , were good discipline observ'd , would be allowed to read the bible . nor can it be objected ( as usually protestants do ) that the scriptures are safely clear to every one in fundamentals , and mistakable onely in points of lesser consequence , since the very text saies , they are both hard to be understood , and pervertible to the perdition of their readers ; and if such points as import salvation or damnation be not fundamental , i 'm utterly ignorant of the meaning of that word . let then the learned , and the ste●dy christian read , and study , and meditate th● bible as often and as long as he will , every catholic will commend him , but by no means should that liberty be given to the unlearned and unstable , lest the scripture it self condemn it , as a boldnesse that may endanger their eternal salvation . and 't is observeable in king henry the 8 th . who , after he had caused the english bible to be publish't , so as to be read by all without any restraint , was forc't again , after three years experience ( wherein he saw the many strange and horrid opinions rising among the ignorant people by occasion thereof ) by a new act of parliament to abridge the liberty formerly granted , and to prohi●it upon the penalty of a months imprisonment toties quoties , that any woman , husbandman , artificer , yeoman , servingman , apprentice or iourny-man labourer , &c. should read them to themselves or to others , privatly or openly . see stat. 34 , 35. hen. 8. 1. because ( saith the preface of that statue ) his highness perceived that a great multitude of his subjects , most especially of the lower sort , had so abused the scriptures , that they had thereby grown and increased in diverse naughtie and erroneous opinions , and by occasion thereof fallen into great divisions and dissentions among themselves . and if you say , the opinions the king calls here erroneous , were the protestant doctrines , discovered by the vulgar from the new light of the scriptures , you may see the very opinions , as the bishops collected them in fox , pag. 1136. un-ownable by any sober protestant or christian. a thing perhaps not unworthy the serious consideration of the present governors , who have seen the like effects in these daies . 5. but as for other lay-persons of better judgement and capacities , and of whose submission to the churches authority , and aversion from novelties sufficient proofs can be given , our ecclesiastical governors are easily enough entreated , yea , they are well enough enclin'd to exhort them to read the scriptures themselves in their vulgar tongues , and are forward to assist them in explaining difficulties , and resolving doubts that may occurr . 6. and now let doctor pierce speak his conscience , if he dare do it ; is not this way of managing the consciences of christs flock and this prudent dispensing of scripture very desireable , yea actually in their hearts here in england , that it may be in practise among them ? but it is now too late : their first reformers found no expedient so effectual to call followers to them out of god's church , as by wastfully powring this treasure into their hands , and accusing the church for not doing so , not fore-seeing , or not caring , if , in future times , that which was an instrument of their schism , from the true church , would be far more effectual to multiply schisms from their false one . for the making an ill use of scripture by ignorant or passionate laicks is not altogether so certain or probable to follow in the catholic church , where men are bred up in a belief and most necessary duty of submission even of their minds to her authority for the delivering of the only true sence of scripture : whereas in such churches as this , in which not any one person ever was or can be perswaded that the sence of scripture given by them can challenge an internal assent from any , or that it may not without sin be contradicted ; to give the scripture indefinitly to all who can read or are willing to hear it read , without a guide to tell them the true sense which they are bound to believe , is to invite them to ascend into moses chair , which such reformer's themselves have made empty and vacant for them . 7. the second part of this pretended novelty concerns public praying in an unknown tongue : which , says he , may be fetcht indeed as far as from gregory the great ( that is , ever since this nation was christian : ) but is as scandalously opposite to the plain sence of scriptures , as if it were done in a meer despight to 1. cor. 14. 13. &c. and , besides origen , it is confess'd by aquinas and lyra , that in the primitive times the public service of the church was in the common language too . and as the christians of dalmatia , habassia , &c. and all reformed parts of christendom have god's service in their vulgar tongues , so hath it been in divers places by approbation first had from the pope himself . 8. i will acknowledge to d●ctor pierce , that this is the only point of novelty ( as he calls it ) of which he discourses sensibly , and as it were to the purpose : but withall i must tell him , it is , because he mistakes our churches meaning . for he charges the catholic religion , as if one of its positions were , that gods publick service ought to be in an unknown tongue , or as if it forbad people to understand it . and truly if it were so , we could never hope to be reconciled with that passage of scripture out of st. paul , 1 cor. 14. 13 , &c. but all this is a pure mis-understanding . therefore i desire him to permit himself for once to be informed how the matter stands in this point with the roman catholic church . 9. we roman catholics ( i. ) do willingly acknowledge , that in the primitive times the public service of god was ( generally speaking ) perform'd in a tongue better understood than now it is , yet not then for many places and countries in their vulgar , or native , or best understood tongue ; for it is evident by st. augustin that in afric it was in the latin tongue , not in the punic , which yet was the only tongue the vulgar understood . so the liturgy of st. basil was used in the greek tongue in most parts of the eastern churches . and yet it appears as well out of later history , as out of the acts 2. 8 , 9 , 10. &c. 14. v. 11. that greek was not in those antient times the vulgar tongue of many of those eastern countrys , no more than latin was of the western . 2. we professe it was not , nor yet is the intention of the church that the public devotions should therefore be in latin , because it is not vulgarly understood : but this has hapned as it were by accident , besides her intention , and onely because the latin tongue , in which it was first written , by revolution of times and mixture of barbarous nations in europe , has been corrupted , and ceased to be a so commonly understood language by unlearned people ; for indeed probably it was never so well understood , as that other native language which they used before it , or with it . 10. matters standing thus , yet the church does not think fit to change with the times , but continues gods publick service as it was at first : and this we may conceive she does . 1. because no example can be found in antiently-established churches , that any of them changed the language of gods public service entirely . the greeks now use the antient masse of st. chrysostom written in pure greek , as much differing from the vulgar , as latin from the italian , spanish , &c. the like may be said of the syrian , cophtites , &c. among whom the mass is celebrated in the o●d language , far from being vulgarly understood . yea , the iews continue their devotions , to this day , in the hebrew , understood by few among them . 2. because , though the latin be not now in any place a vulgar language yet there is no language so universally understood in europe as that : and a great fitnesse there is that the most public service should be in the most public language , in which all nations may joyn every where . and by those who most frequently recite the divine service in the catholic church , viz. the clergy , and other religious ( for whose proper use a great part of this service was composed ) the latin tongue is well understood . 3. because the latin ●ongue now that it is not vulgar , being thereby becom unchangeable , the churches doctrins contain'd in her lit●rgies are so much the more freed from the danger of being innovated . whereas vulgar languages almost in every age become un-intelligible , or at least sound very unpleasing in mens ears , as we now see in king edward the sixth's common-prayer-book : would it not seem an odd translation now to read , that saint philip baptiz'd the gelding ? and paul the knave of iesus christ , yet this was once the english scripture ; nay more , within this twenty years we find many words and phrases have quite changed their former sense : so that all nations must be ever and anon altering their liturgies , to the great danger of changing the churches belief ; and ( which is not altogether inconsiderable ) for the present good husbandry of the world , to the infinite expen●es of moneys in printing &c. 11. i doubt not but he will reply that not any one , or all these commodities can answer and satisfie for an express , and , as he calls it , a scandalous opposition to the plain sense of scripture , 1 cor. 14. i grant it : all these commodities are to be despised , rather than so to oppose the apostles doctrin . but what is his doctrin ? for i evidently perceive the doctor has not well search'd into it , much lesse , rightly apply'd it . the apostle says . if i pray in an unknown tongue , my spirit prays , but my understanding receives no benefit , &c. and how can an unlearned person say amen to such prayers ? in which passage seems involved a tacite prohibition at least of publick prayers in an unknown tongue . all this is granted : but yet with this exception mention'd by the apostle himself , unless either he that prays , or some other interpret . therefore before he took on him to charge the catholic church with a scandalous opposition to this passage of scripture , he ought to have examin'd better her doctrin and practise : otherwise he himself will be found guilty of a scandalous opposition to god's church . now for a tryal of the churches sence , let him observe the ordinance of the council of trent touching this very point : the words are these , though the mass contain instruction for gods faithful people , yet it seem'd not expedient unto the fathers that it should be celebrated every where in the vulgar tongue ; wherefore retaining in all places the churches antient rite , approved by the holy roman church ▪ the mother and mistresse of all churches ; lest christ's sheep should hunger , and children asking bread , none should be found to break it to them , the holy synod commands all pastours and all that have care of souls , that during the celebration of mass , they should frequently either by themselves or others , expound some part of those things which are read in it ; and among other things let them explain the mystery of this most holy sacrifice , especially on sundays and feasts . the preacher here may see that the church does not make such a secret even of the most sublime mysteries of her office , as the court believ'd upon his report . 12. likewise between this speaking in an unknown tongue , mention'd by st. paul , and the churches publick latin service , there is this great disparity , that this later is always a known language to several of those present , if not to all , and there are alwayes those who understandingly say , amen . and again being a known set-form in one set-language , recurring continually the same according to the feast , those who are ignorant of it at first , need not continue so , but by due attention , and other diligence may arive to a sufficient knowledge at least of the chief parts thereof , they having also in their manuals , primers , psalters , &c. ready translated both the psalms , hymns and prayers , &c. and there being several books both in english and all vulgar languages , that expound the church-service even to the meanest capacity . neither is the latin tongue , by reason of its affinity with many vulgar tongues , and of the constant use hereof , a language unknown to such a degree in catholick conntries , as our english nation imagin it , and therefore is so much scandalized : neither is there the same motive for some dispensation of a change in those places , as perhaps would be in a country less acquainted with the latin , and of a language more remote from it . yet our venerable beda in his history saith , that in his time to these northern languages of ours , english , scotch , britans , picts , the latin tongue , by perusing the scriptures , was made common to them all . the usual language therefore wherein the scriptures were delivered in his times was latin , and by this that tongue rendred common , and not unknown even to these northern people . 13. besides all this , several popes , patriarks , &c. have approved the translation of the missal , &c. into the vulgar languages , as pope iohn the eighth , who was induced thereto by a miracle related by aeneas silvius ( afterward pope pius the second ) likewise pope innocent the third , pope leo the tenth , balsamon , patriarch of antioch , &c. to conclude , since the doctor confesseth that popes have given leave to some churches that the divine office should be in a vulgar tongue , he ought not to have made a quarrel of this to a separation , till it could be shewed , that their first reformers had demanded a dispensation , and been refused . chap. xvi . of invocation of saints : proved out of antiquity . concessions : deductions : and objections answered . 1. the next supposed novelty is the invocation of saints departed : which says doctor pierce , is no doubt an aged error , though not so aged as they would have it , ( for the gaining of honor to the invention ) because st. augustin does deny it to have been in his dayes . 2. though perhaps the preacher may for some ends be unwilling , yet that other protestants may see the innocence of the church in this point , and how free she is from any intention of deterring any one from having access in prayer to our lord immediately ; or of diminishing the all-sufficient vertue of our lords merits and intercession ; or of i●ducing men to security by relying on the holynesse and intercession of others , and neglecting the means of salvation themselves , &c. ( which are generally the grounds upon which protestants condemn this practise : ) i will first set down the churches decision : and next , in order to demonstrate the reasonablenesse of it , i will shew , for preventing such prejudices , what concessions are generally made by catholics . thirdly , i will confirm the churches practise by the testi●onies of the primitive times . and lastly , answer the doctors only argument . 3. first , then touching the churches doctrin , contained in the council of trent , the holy synod commands all bishops and others who sustain the office and care of teaching , that , according to the use of the catholic and apostolic religion received from the primitive times , the consent of the holy fathers , and the ●ecrees of the sacred councils ▪ especially touching the intercession and invocation of saints , &c. that they diligently instruct the faithful , teaching them , that the saints reigning together with christ , do offer their prayers to god for men , and that it is good and profitable hum●ly to invocate them , and to have recourse to their prayers , help and assistance for the obtaining of benefits from god by his son iesus christ our lord , who alone is our redeemer and saviour . let them likewise teach , that those who deny that the saints , enjoying eternal felicity in heaven , are to be invocated ; or who affirm either that they do not pray for men , or that the invocating them to pray for us in particular also , is idolatry , or that it is repugnant to gods word and contrary to the honor of the one mediator between god and men iesus christ ; or that it is a foolish thing to supplicate with words or mind to them reigning in heaven [ impie sentiunt ] are impiously persuaded . 4. in the second place , in conformity to the doctrin of this decree , catholics believe and acknowledge . 1. that we have only one mediator iesus christ , to whom only belongs the merit that by it's just worth redeems us from eternal death , and purchases for us eternal life : as likewise that as his merits by satisfaction , so also his intercession is all-sufficient by way of impetration , to obtain all blessings for us . 2. yet cannot it be deny'd but our lords intercessi●n is not actually and absolutely beneficial to all , but that some duties and qualifications on our part are necessary both that his merits , and the benefits of his intercession should be effectually applyed unto us . 3. among these qualifications we are to reckon not only our own prayers for our selves , but mutual prayers for one another : which therefore we may beg from one another , as st. paul himself did from the ephesians , colossians , &c. 4. because the more holy any person is , the more effectual will his intercession be with god , therefore we may beg of known saints their prayers to god for us with greater hope of successe . 5. such begging of prayers is farr from idolatry , superstition or diminution to christ's honor , since holy persons ( living or dead ) are not invocated as donors but fellow-beggers with god for us . 6. though a christian may be saved who prays to god alone , and requests not the prayers of others , yet to refuse the assistance of those , whose prayers god more willingly hears , is a neglect at least of using all means helpful to us . 7. neverthelesse we say with saint chrysostom , god will bestow salvation much rather on us praying for our selves , than for others ▪ praying for us : and we are much more safe by our own devotions ( without others ) then by others ( alone : ) and therefore we ought not to be slothful and secure , depending on other●s merits . for the prayers and supplications of saints have indeed very great force with god in our behalf , but it is then truly when we with penance and humiliation beg the same thing also of god. and therefore saith the same saint , knowing these things , let us neither neglectingly contemn the prayers of saints , nor cast our selves wholly upon them . 5. whatsoever hath been hitherto said , may indifferently be applied as well to saints departed , as to saints alive : if the prayers to saints departed be prejudicial to the merits & intercession of our lord , so is the beging of the prayers of those alive : if one be unlawful , so is the other : nay , most certain it is , that if both be lawful , the prayers of saints departed will be incomparably more effectual , and therfore will better deserv to be made use of , than the other . therefore , notwithstanding most of the arguments of protestants against the doctrin of the church touching invocation of saints departed , do prove full as much against prayer to the living , and therefore are evidently unconcluding : yet those , who are most learned and sober , and will not wilfully mistake catholic doctrin , do free us from all imputation of idolatry , superstition , or doing injury to christ , and reduce the controversie to a short point : for they question not whether the saints pray in general for us , but rather willingly acknowledge it ; yea they will not positively deny but they may and do pray personally for their former known acquaintance , as st. augustin believ'd his mother did for him : likewise they will grant that though they be in heaven , they may either by gods revelation , or by relation from angels be informed of the prayers made to them by any others on earth : and that supposing such a knowledge , they will become intercessors for them in particular . 6. but , you 'l say , since there is no general certainty , that they understand our prayers or wants , or interesse themselves in the particular necessities of the living , therefore though it be not unlawful , as prejudicial to the honor and duty we owe to god , to invocate them in particular , yet it may be call'd unlawful , in regard it is uncertain . to this scruple , catholicks acknowledg the church by no decision hath declar'd that the saints generally hear all the particular prayers of us on earth : and consequently that it is not any article of our faith to believ they do so : yea , several moderate catholics refuse to say peremptorily that it is so ; yet in all catholics opinion this does not , nor ought to hinder them from acknowledging that the practise of invocating saints by name , is very beneficial to us , though they should have no particular knowledge of your prayers . 7. and the grounds to prove this to be rational are these , first , because though it were so that the souls of glorifi'd saints did not hear our prayers , or know our particular necessities , yet at least , it is certain the holy angels are continually present with us on earth , and that it is by them we are defended from the divels malice , who otherwise , having such a wonderful strength exceeding ours , would destroy us all in our sins . now , since god does not ordinarily interpose his power immediatly in natural actions , nor substract his universal influence on his creatures , it cannot be imagin'd ( since the devils will not be hindred by any law or prohibition ) by what other power , but that of angels , they should be restrained from executing their malice against us . adde to this , that history tells us magicians have the divels alwaies ready to come at their call ▪ why then should not angels be witnesses of our actions , and especially our prayers , which , as the scripture saies , they offer as incense to god , being alwaies assistant in the houses of prayer . this being supposed , we are not to imagin that those holy spirits stand upon niceties , and will not do any good unlesse particularly call'd upon : but on the contrary , will be charitably officious in helping and delivering us , whensoever we implore the assistance of any of their fellow citizens . and it is upon this matter that st. augustin , not doubting at all that great good arrives unto us by invocating the martyrs , &c. ( for the beginning of his discourse is , although that question doth exceed the power of my understanding , how martyrs succor those which certainly are in effect aided by them , &c. ) very subtilly disputes whether the saints themselves hear us , or the angels for them : and whether , when they seem to appear unto us , it be not the angels which take their shape . 8. again , how great the spheare of the activity of the saints glorified may be in respect of this whole visible world , we know little . that it is finite we know : but how far it may be extended , viz. their faculties of seeing , hearing , and operating , especially since the ascension and glorification of our lord , we know not . thus the archbishop of spalato , no great patron of invocation of saints : i do not think it unprobable , saith he , that there should be assigned to every angel and beatified soul very vast spaces both of the superior and inferior world , wherein they may operate : and perhaps the whole sensible world may be no more to one of them , than its proper body is to a humane soul informing it . and thus vossius interprets st. hieroms speech of them ; that he held beatified souls present at their tombs , and like angels passing most swiftly through spaces wonderfully distant ; moreover , that they there know the necessities , and hear the request of those who have recourse to them . but suppose their agency and intelligence , as spirits , confined only to the circuit of heaven , yet how great the knowledge of these saints , standing continually in gods presence , may be by way of revelation of things absent or future , of mans thoughts , &c. in the same manner , ( tho' in a higher degree , ) as also some special saints have on earth , who can determine ? if god said of abraham , a pilgrim on earth , shall i hide from abraham the thing that i do ? how much more may we imagin that he hideth not the mighty works of his providence , mercy and justice here on earth from those his domestick servants ? so we read , not onely an angel , but every one of the twenty four elders to have in their hands golden censers , aud vials full of odors , which are the prayers of saints ; that is , of their brethren on earth . 9. again , though there were no certainly in this , that even the angels are present to us , and execute the things we pray for , yet the practise of invocating saints ought not to be neglected ; because , considering the unquestionable proofs of a world of miraculous effects of such prayers , both in modern and ancient times , recorded by the most learned , prudent , and holy among the primitive fathers , of many of which themselves were eye witnesses , and the rest confirm'd by testimonies irrefragable ; miraculous effects i say , not only of prayers here directed to god , with relation to the acceptablenesse and intercession of such saints ; but also of prayers directed to the saints themselves , as appears by the quotations below : we may be assured that this practise pleases almighty god , and is very benefical to us . among other witnesses of this , i will only name st. gregory nyssen , and theodoret for the greek church , and st. augustin for the roman . the first of these in his oration on the martyr st. theodorus : the second through his whole 8 th . book intituled of martyrs ; and st. augustin in his 22th . book de civitate dei , through several chapters , shew both that frequent addresses were made to , and many wonderful miracles perform'd by the intercession of saints , especially martyrs , which miracles were shew'd rather in the places , where those martyrs were particularly honour'd , and where their reliques reposed , then in others ; and upon those , who invocated their intercession and assistance , then on others , &c. which are demonstrative proofs that the veneration and invocation of them are acceptable to god. st. augustin relates that the multitude of miracles which were done at hippo , the seat of his bishoprick , at the memory of st. stephen , and that within the two first years , after some part of his reliques were brought thither from ierusalem by orosius , was so great ( who also caused them to be enrolled , and for god's and the saints glory , to be recited to the people the next festival after they were done , of some of which also he was himself an eye-witnesse ) so great i say , as that those that were registred amounted to near 70. ( whereof he sets down a considerable number in that 8 th . chapter ) and those done at calama to a far greater number . it is not yet two years since the memorial at hippo regius was erected , whereas the books delivered in to us concerning these miraculous effects ( yet many other , as we are most certain , not being given in ) even to the time when i am writing this , amount to some seventy . but at calama , where the memorial was set up sooner , and the books brought faster , they are incredibly more in number . at uzala too , a colony adjoyning to utica , we have been witnesses of sundry things of note done by the same martyr ; whose memorial was erected there by bishop evodius , long before ours . and st. theodoret also , ( who was a member of the 3 d. and 4 th . general council ) speaks of the peoples frequent repairing and presenting their requests to the martyrs for so many miracles received by them on this manner — neither do we resort hither once or twice , or five times in a year , but frequently in them we keep our festivals , yea , oftentimes for many daies together , we sing lauds and hymns to the lord of these martyrs . where such as are in health petition the martyrs for the continuance thereof ; such as are sick petition them for health , &c. not conceiting that they approach to gods , but praying to these martyrs of god as divine men , invocating and petitioning them for their intercessions with god. and that such , who have devoutly and faithfully invocated them , do obtain their requests , those several guifts do witnesse , which such , obliged by their vows , do bring thither , being clear evidences of their unfeigned cures . for some hang up their tablets of eyes , some of feet , others of hands , made of gold or silver . these things therefore exposed to the view of all , do evidence the driving away of their diseases : these i say do demonstrate , what the power of those martyrs is , which are buried there , &c. thus theodoret , whom , tho' some of the reformed ( upon a negative argument , because nicephorus mentions not this book amongst others , but so he omits some which gennadius ( mentions ) deny to be the author of this book , yet rivet is more candid , saying , libris de graec. affect . curand . nonnulla addita esse malim dicere , quam de authore dubitare . and lastly , st. gregory nyssen speaks thus on the same subject — after one hath thus delighted his eyes with the building , he desires further to approach the monument it self , believing the very touching thereof to bring a benediction and hallowing along with it . but if any be suffered to take away any of the dust gathered from off the martyrs sepulchre , such dust is taken for a great guift , and this very earth laid up as a precious treasure . but if at any time such a happinesse befalls any , as to have the priviledge to touch the reliques , how earnestly such a thing is to be wished and desired , being the reward of much importunitie , they know well , who have sought and obtained it . for then they view and embrace this body , as if it were alive and fresh ; apply it to their mouth , their ears , and the other organs of all their senses : moreover , powring out tears of du●y and affection upon the martyr , as if he appear'd to them sound and entire , they offer up their humble prayers , that he would intercede as an advocate for them , begging of him as a courtier of heaven , and invocating him , as one that can obtain any thing he pleaseth . to what prince is there such honour given ? 10. in the third place i will adjoyn further expresse testimonies out of the ancient fathers , all living within the doctors determinate times , and shewing the lawfulnesse and usefulnesse of this practise of invocating the glorified saints . thus then saies st. basil : whosoever is in any pressure , let hin fly to the assistance of these martyrs : and again , whoever is in a state of joy , let him pray to them : the former , that he may be delivered from misery : the latter , that he may be preserved in prosperitie . thus st. chrysostom , the emperor , who is cloathed with purple , takes a journey to visit these sepulchres [ of st. peter and st. paul ] and laying aside his pomp , presents himself to make supplication to them , to the end they may intercede to god for him , be whose temples are encompassed with a diadem , praies to a maker of tents , and a fisherman , as his protectors . and to the same purpose , of the same emperor , speaks ruffinus . thus st. ambrose , we ought to pray to the angles which are given us for guards : we ought to pray to the martys , whose bodies seem to be as it were gages and hostages , that we may challenge their patronage and protection , &c. let us not therefore be asham'd to employ them as intercessors for our infirmitie ; for they themselves by experience knew the infirmitie of our bodies , even then when they surmounted it . this st. ambrose writ not , as bishop andrews imagins , when he was a neophite , but a bishop . see voss. de invocat . disp. 2 , thes. 1. and forbs de invocat . cap. 3. their more candid concessions concerning this father . thus st. hilary , it is not the nature of god , but our infirmitie that stands in need of the intercession of angels : for they are sent for the benefit of those which shall inherit salvation , god himself not being ignorant of the things which we do , but our infirmitie needing this mystery of a spiritual intercession for the imploring and obtaining for us ( what is good for us ) . in which testimony so much is clear , that the angels know our necessities , &c. and this is sufficient to infer the lawfulnesse of requesting them also to intercede for us . to these , many more testimonies may be added out of other holy fathers , as likewise the actual prayers to martyrs made and recorded by st. basil , st. gregory nyssen , st. gregory nazianzen , st. ephrem , theodoret , st. hierom , st. paulinus , prudentius , &c. to which , i hope , dr. pierce will forbear to return the usual evasion , that all these are but rhetorical apostrophe's : since other expressions of the same fathers , viz , that they are well perswaded that those saints to whom they addresse these requests , have an inspection from heaven on their affairs . that they do relieve the necessities of those who supplicate to them . that the people make addresses to these heavenly courtiers , as to those who obtain guifts from god when they please . and that if the lamb be every where , these saints which are with the lamb , ought to be believed to be any where , ( or every where ) as they please : since , i say , these expressions do not consist with such a pretence of their invocating them only in an empty flourish ; and since this is a put-off too vain , to get any credit with sober men , to say that such grave and holy bishops , when preaching to the people , would make petitions to these saints to exercise their rhetorick , and yet without any cautioning their hearers , that they did it in such a manner ; which , if done seriously , would have been an injury to god , to christ our redeemer , ye● , idolatry , &c. and lastly , since the doctor may find vossius and forbes , for some of them at least , condemning this evasion . 11. to these testimonies , i may adjoyn the expresse confessions of protestants , that invocation of saints was commonly in use in the greek church long before the 3 d. and 4 th . general councils . for which , besides the confession of chemnitius , vossius also is clear , whose words are ; about the year of christ , 370. those to whom the care of instructing the people was committed , did by their practise lead them to invocate the saints departed . and indeed , in the greek church the first , or at least very near the first of those which gave such examples were basil , nyssen , nazianzen : and in the west , at the same time , ambrose of millain , a diligent reader and imitater of the greeks , followed the same custom . now , since dr. pierce professes so ready a submission to the judgment of the four first general councils , and must grant , that several of these fathers , whom vossius acknowledges to have been patrons of invocation , and to have used it even in the publick assemblies , ( for which they were never censured ) did precede many years two of these general councils ; i would gladly know if such a question had been made before the third or fourth council , concerning invocation of saints , as was , before that of trent , whether he can perswade himself , that those fathers would not have justified such invocation for lawful in those councils , which they practised as lawful out of , and before them , and would not have produced at least as high a stating of that point , as the council of trent did ? and indeed a particular knowledg and agency of saints deceased in in human affairs seems to be acknowledged in the fourth general council , and invocation in the third person : whose words are , let flavian be had in everlasting memory : behold vengeance , [ i. e. on his murderers . ] behold the truth ! flavian lives after death ! let flavian the martyr pray for us . 12. it remains in the last place , that an answer be given to the only a●gument out of antiquitie , produced by the doctor against this doctrine , and to prove it's noveltie . for , saies he , st. augustin denies invocation of saints to have been in his daies : and his only proof that he does so , is from those words of his , the men of god ( that is sain●s departed ) are named indeed in their due place and order , but they are not invoked by the priest who sacrifices . 12. to this passage , our answer it , 1. that sure the preacher had forgot he was to reckon , presently after , the sacrifice of the masse among novelties , introduced after the fourth general council , when he produced this testimony that expresly proves the contrary : here is a sacerdos brought in , and here he is brought in both praying and sacrificing and yet , saies the doctor , no such thing as any christian sacrifice . or , if a sacrifice , only a sacrifice perhaps of praise and thanksgiving . but st. augustin will contradict him , who as hath been said , calls this indeed a sacrifice of thanksgiving in regard of glorified saints commemorated in it : but a sacrifice propitiatory in regard of the faithful departed with some stains of sins remaining , 2. the same thing st. augustin means here ( i. e. that saints are not soveraignly invocated by way of sacrifice , as the supream donors and fountain of all good that descends to mankind , ) is taught by the catholic church even where she professes invocation of saints in the same sense as st. augustin allows it , that is , as of our fellow-members and citizens , making efficacious intercessions for us to this supream deity to whom we sacrifice . for thus saies the council of trent , although the church be accustomed to celebrate masses somtimes in the honour and memory of saints ; yet she does not teach that the sacrifice should be offered to them , but to god alone who has crown'd them : and hence it is that the priest is never wont to say , o peter , o paul , i offer this sacrifice to thee , but to god , to whom he gives thanks for their victories , and implores their patronage , that they may vouchsafe to intercede for us in heaven , whole memory we celebrate on earth . a part of which decree is taken out of s. augustin himself in the same treatise quoted by the preacher . 3. dr. pierce could not possibly have made a worse choice of a place from whence to select a testimony ( as he would have us believe ) denying all invocation of saints , whenas in the two chapters of the same book immediately preceding this , many stories are largely recounted to certifie the great good that christians had found by the intercession of saints , and all this , whilst in their oratories they begg'd their intercession . 4 perhaps he will not yet be content : but with bishop andrews | will urge , it is not here said by st. austin , that the saints are not sacrificed to , but that they are not so much as invocated at the altar . and if it be unlawful to invocate them there , it will be as well unlawful any where else . hereto it is answered , that all this , taken in a right sense , is granted . for first , to this day in the masse there is no kind of invocation of saints ; yea more , according to the council of carthage , till the consecration be perfected , there are no prayers directed to the son of god , nor to the holy ghost , but only to god the father . 2. but this argues not that ( if the church had so order'd it ) it might not have been lawful even at the altar to have invocated the saints by such an inferiour invocation or compellation as the church has determined , which is only according to card. perron [ prier pour prier ] to desire them to pray for us : as even in the masse it self , the priest requests the assistants , saying , orate fraires , ut meum ac vestrum sacrificium acceptabile fiat apud deum , &c. to whom the people answers , suscipiat dominus sacrificium de manibus tuis , &c. 3. but as for the supream sort of invocation , which st. austi● only intended in this passage , and which he calls culium latriae , this is only due to god , and without impiety cannot be made to saints : and thus st. austin writing against faustus , the manichean , fully justifies what he saith in this passage . 5. but after all this , that st. austin allows invocation of saints in an inferior way , do but examin only these places in him — c. 4. de curâ pro mortuis ( a book which he wrote in answer to a quere of paulinus , whether it doth benefit any one after his death to have his body buried in the memorial of some saint ) — when as ( saith he ) such consolations of the living are looked after [ that is , of burying their friends in such sacred places ] whereby their pious affection may appear to their friends . i see not what advantages may accre● [ hereby ] to the dead , except this ; that whilst they call to mind where the bodies of those who are dear unto them are laid , they with their prayers commend them to the same saints , as it were to patrons , that by them they may be helped with our lord , which also they might do , although they could not inter them in such places . — whensoever therefore the minde recounts , where the body of some dear friend lies buried , and streight the place occurs renown'd for the name of some martyr , the devotion of him , who thus remembers and prayes , forthwith commends this beloved soul to the same martyr . — there was here in hippo ( saith the same father ) a certain old man called florentius , poor but pious , and a tailor by trade . he had lost his cloak , and had nothing wherewith to buy him another . he prayed with a loud voice , to the twenty martyrs , whose monument here among us is very famous , to reapparel him . some scoffing young men by chance being near hand , over-heard him , and at his going away followed him jeering him , as if he had begged of the martyrs fifty half pence to buy him clothes . — and afterward , — the cook ( saith he ) cutting up the fish , found in the belly of it a gold ring , which , moved with pity and piety together , he straightway delivered to the poor man , saying , see how the twenty martyrs have furnished you with clothes . de diversis serm. 32. & 33. ( unquestioned that i know of , and which appear sufficiently to be s. austins , by comparing these with the conclusion of cap. 8. l. 22. de civit. dei. — a certain woman ( saith he there ) lost her son , a sucking infant , being as yet a catechumen only . — full of faith she took the dead childe , and ran to the memorial of the blessed martyr stephen , and began of him to demand her son , and to say , holy martyr , you see i have no comfort at all left me ; for i cannot so much as say that my son is gon before me ( to bliss ) whom you know is utterly perished ( because dying unbaptized ) . you see the cause of this my dessolate grief ; restore me my son , &c. — de baptism . l. 7. c. 1. — and l. 5. c. 17. being compared , this father supposeth the martyr cyprian to know his affairs ; and , in his handling that controversie of rebaptization , contrary to st. cyprians former judgment , ( in which point he presumes that saint now fully illuminated ) yet hopes for his favour , and requests the assistance to him herein of his prayers — let him help us therefore ( saith he ) with his prayers , laboring here in in the mortality of this flesh as in a dark myst , that by gods help we may , as much as we can , imitate the good things that were in him . 6. upon these grounds bishop forbes grants , that st. austin doth allow invocation of martyrs ; commends bishop montagues candor in acknowledging it ; and there also censures bishop andrews for denying it , in these words : the bishop of ely wrongfully affirms that st. austin disallowed the invocation of saints , the contrary whereof is apparent in his bood de curâ pro mortuis , &c. and afterwards he adds , truly i am sorry , that so just a cause is given to iohn barclay of expos●ulating with the most learned bishop of ely , who speaks thus concerning him — here i have a desire to tell the king of great britain's almoner : the king believes him , and so do many others ; and yet he is as oft in fault , as he makes others to be so . let him therefore consider , how erroniously he denies that st. austin approves the invocation of martyrs . adde to bishop forbers , and bishop montague , the testimony of dr. fulk long ago in his rejoinder to bristow — i acknowledge ( saith he ) st. ambrose , st. austin , and st. ierom held invocation of saints to be lawful , which is an error — and the testimony of the bishop of spalato , who numbers this father among many others that allowed invocation of saints : the fathers ( saies he ) without any hesitancy either invocate saints , or grant they may be invocated : the latin ; hilary , ambrose , ierom , paulinus , maximus , prudentius , augustinus , — and the testimony of chemnitius also , who , upon the former quotation taken out of st. austin de baptismo , l. 7. c. 1. sayes , thus st. austin speaks without ground of scripture , yielding to the times and common custom . yet for all this , a confident pronouncing that st. austin knew nothing of this doctrine or practice serv'd the preachers turn ▪ many of his auditors knew nothing to the contrary , and therefore believ'd him , and , according to his desire , detested roman catholics the more for this novelty . and that was enough then ; but what will it be when the righteous judge shall call that sermon to a second account ? chap. xvii . celibacy of priests . vowes of chastity : the doctrine and practice of the church in both . objections answered . 1. the doctors tenth pretended noveltie , is the roman churches prohibition of marriage to priests and others in holy orders : which , saies he , is by some derived from the third century , by others from the eighth ; and in the rigour that now it is , from pope gregory 7. and by roman catholics themselves , 't is dated but from pope calixtus . but ( saies he ) both in the old and new testament , priests were permitted to have wives : the apostles were married : besides marriage of priests was asserted by paphnutius in the council of nice : and by one of the apostolic canons : and the forbidding of marriage , with saturninus and the gnosticks , is worthily called by the apostle the doctrine of devils . 2. indeed if the prohibition of mariage to some certain states of men or women be the doctrin of devils , the preacher has reason rather to seperate himself from a church that enjoyns such a diabolical vertue as continence , than from a wife that will not permit it , and who perhaps and therefore a great influence upon his zeal , more warm in this novelty than any of the rest . though it is not only permitted him , but esteem'd meritorious to blaspheme the church of god , yet let him take heed how he blasphemes the apostle , who , in the same epistle out of which the doctor quotes his doctrin of devils , forbids marriage to widows , who had consecrated themselves to our lord's service : younger widows refuse ( says he ) for when they have begun to wax wanton against christ , they will mary : having damnation , because they have cast off their first faith. what means this phrase [ they have cast off their first faith ] ( saith st. augustin ? ) [ voverunt & non red did e●unt . ] they vowed ( perpetual continence ) but they kept not their vow : and therefore they have damnation . this is st. augustin's constant doctrin and interpretation of that place of the apostle , as may be seen by examining the quotations in the margin . the same is taught by st. epiphanius , st. hierons , fulgentius , the fourth council of carthage , ( at which st. augustin was present ) &c. and it is not contradicted by any one antient doctor , nor any , except antient hereties , iovian , vigilantius , &c. and this surely will suffice to demonstrate it , no novelty in god's church , much lesse that it was esteem'd a doctrin of devils , to forbid marriage to persons consecrated to god's service . forbid it ; i say , not the gnosticks , manichees , &c. forbad it , as an unlawful thing in it's self , but only as an impediment and distraction in a spiritual vocation . now whether widows are esteem'd by the preacher to be more nearly and perfectly consecrated to the divine service , by the office of deaconesses , then men by priesthood , 't is expected he should declare . 3. but for better clearing of this point , touching the prohibition of mariage to persons in holy orders , &c. in charity i must suppose the doctor will not professe the heresie of iovinian , who taught that virginity does not excel matrimony . an heresie so contrary to reason , that ( as st. augustin tell us ) it was presently extinguished and never could attain to the deceiving so much as one priest. this heresie formally contradicts st. paul teaching thus , there is difference between a wife and a virgin , the ( virgin ) unmarried woman careth for the things of our lord , that shew ay be holy both in body and spirit : but she that is maried careth for the things of the world , how she may please her husband . which saying of the apostle certainly at least declares a state of virginity and continency much more advantagious to promote the service of god and keep the mind fixed on spiritual and heavenly imployments , than a married state , encombred with worldly cares , and carnal appetites . thus much i doubt not will by the preacher be granted . 4. but now the question must be , whether eunuchism for the kingdom of heaven , that is , a perpetual abstinence from marriage and all carnal lusts may lawfully be by priests , &c. made the matter of a vow ? that it is a council of perfection is evident from our saviours speech , qui potest capere , capiat . but upon supposition that continency is a special gift of god , not bestow'd on all , and that it is infinitely difficult for any one certainly to know he has this gift : for these and such like reasons the roformed churches , in opposition to the roman catholic , have generally condemned the practice of such vows , at least consider'd as extending it self generally to any whole order or state of men , and especially an obligation imposed on them to this practice . 5. on the other side the roman catholic church , though she acknowledges continence to be a special gift of god , and that there may be some difficulty to attain and preserve it , yet esteems not these to be grounds sufficient to relinquish the obligation of c●libacy in priests , &c. which she submitted to from the preachchers beginning , that is in the primitive times of the church , at least within the four first general councils . 6. it is granted then , that continency , ( that is an ability to abstain ( not from all motions of concupiscence but ) from putting in execution all motions , either by a voluntary morose delectation in them , or much more by outward unclean practises of them ) is a gift of god , a fruit of his holy spirit , and cannot by natural means be obtained so as to be practised in obedience to him . but so are all christian vertues : so is faith , so is repentance , so is charity , all which notwithstanding , we vow in our baptism . and why do we vow a practise of those vertues which are pure gifts of god ? because we are assured the same god , who commands that vow , will not be wanting to supply strength to perform it , in all those that sincerely beg those gifts of him by earnest prayers made in faith , and by avoiding all known , and possible-to-beavoided impediments to the practise of those vertues . 7. but it will be said , that great difference is to be made between that continence which is a christian vertue necessary to all ; viz. a continence from all unlawful lusts ; and such a continence as is now treated of , which is an abstinence from marriage , that is from the lawful remedies of unlawful lusts , which abstinence is so far from being necessary to all , that it is no more than a council to those that aspire to perfection , which are but few , even in the opinion of the roman-church . this abstinence certainly is a far more special gift of god , say they , and not too easily and commonly to be presumed on . 8. all ▪ this likewise understood cum grano salis , is acknowledged by us . yet withall protestants know that even this abstinence from marriage , or from exercising the lawful acts in marriage is a gift bestowed on very many , and in some cases necessary to almost every one . for otherwise it would be utterly unlawful for parents to keep their children unmarried after the time they are capable , and thereby to expose them to unlawful lusts , since it seems they are not sure they have such a gift : it would be unlawful for merchants and travellers to make long voyages abroad , and leave their wives at home deprived of the necessary lawful remedies against lust and temptations to which they are exposed . all statutes of colledges ought to be repealed , which forbid marriage still to all fellows , and heretofore to all presidents , upon penalty of forfeiting their whole subsistence . a long sickness inflicted by god on either of the married couples , would be far more dangerous to their souls than their bodies , so as if such an abstinence , as is now spoken of , were such an extraordinary gift of perfection , england would have more saints , or more adulterers , &c. than she is aware of . and here good doctor i desire you tell me a thing that perhaps you have not thought on , yet will easily perceive its meaning assoon as you think on 't . what is the reason that the ministers of england generally marry not till they are above thirty years of age ? can they abstain all that while , when their passions are stronger , and their reason weaker , and then , after so long a continency begin to plead 't is impossible for them to hold any longer , unlesse they had the gift of chastity , which god bestows not on every one ? shall i give you my conjecture ? i doubt they force themselves to live single till they have a benefice , and then , assoon as they can maintain a wife , they get one : is not this meer hypocrisie to talk of marrying out of tenderness of conscience , to allay their concupiscence , when the danger is almost all past ; and make no provision to prevent the sins of the unrulyest part of their age ? methinks they should either marry earlyer , when they may justly suspect their chastity , before they have tryed themselves ; or live longer batchellors , when they may prudently hope by the grace of god to persevere after so much experience of their continency . 9. catholicks therfore , though they confesse this continence to be a special gift of god not bestow'd on all , because all do not use the means , yet resolve it is such a special gift as is denyed to none , who rightly seek it , and conceive , it also may be made the matter of a vow by those , who have a steddy purpose to use the necessary means to attain and conserve it , and by those who by humble and due examining themselves , are perswaded that god calls them to a state of greater perfection , and being in that state depend on his grace for performing their vow , seeking his assistance by constant prayers , watchfulnesse , and necessary penitential austerities . now those may be confident they are called to such a state , either in a monastical or ecclesiastical profession , who betake themselves thereto , not out of any worldly respects , for gaining a subsistence or preferment , or other temporal invitations , but purely to avoid the tentations , solicitudes and distractions of the world and flesh , and to devote themselves more to the service of god , and advancing their souls in vertue and piety . in this state of perfection , and in complying with this council of perfection , those , who duly undertake that state , may as undoubtedly promise to themseves gods assistance whilst they use the means to obtain it , as generally all christians may after the vow of baptism . st. augustin writes thus , david vow'd , as having the matter in his own power : and yet he beggs withall ●f god that he may perform what ●e vow'd . here is the devotion of one that vows : here is the humity of one that prays . let no man presume on his own strength , as if he were able of himself to perform what he shall vow . he that exhorts thee to vow [ saying vovete & reddite ] the same god helps thee to perform what thou hast vow'd . 10. if then it be lawfull for private persons to vow celibacy , surely it is lawful for the church to enjoyn it : her doctrin being , that goddenies not the gift of chastity to them who ask it aright , nor suffers us to be tempted above what we are able . which doctrin is the ground why the church enjoyns celibacy to priests : so that chastity is called a special gift , not in this sence , as it all men , though using what means ●oever , are not capable of it : but it is such a gift as many men never actually receive from god , because they do not use the means : and such a gift as few also will endeavour to use the means to attain , because these means are harder than those by which other gifts may be attained . that the undertaking by vow such a life of chastity , and abstinence from marriage , yea in marriage it self , has been approv'd , commended , and practised in gods church from the very beginning , if the preacher will not believe us , let him not suspect at least partiality in his own best friends . we are not ignorant , says chemnitius , that the fathers did approve the vows of perpetual celibacy , and acknowledge them to be obligatory . profession and vows of chastity ( says peter martyr ) were extant among christians in the time of clement of alexandria [ that is about the year 170. ] again , i know , says he , that epiphanius with many of the fathers erred in this , that they said it was a sin to violate such a vow when it was requisite , and that he did ill in referring it to apostolic tradition . danaeus says confidently , that st. augustin and all the bishops in the council of carthage abused manifestly the word of god , saying , upon the apostles words , if any widows how young soever have vowed themselves to god , &c. and afterwards shall go to secular marriage , they shall according to the apostle have damnation : because they dared to make void the vow of chastity made to god. the centurists affirm it to be manifest by the epistles of ignatius , that in those times men began to have too much liking of the profession of virginity : for he says , let virgins consider to whom they have consecrated themselves . 11. and as for the doctrin of devils mentioned by the preacher , he may do well to sit him down and consider the words of the apostle , and the comments of the fathers on them a little better . first he will find the apostle , in his opposing those , who in the latter times should forbid to marry , and command to abstain from meats , to argue against them thus : that every creature and ordinance of god is good ( according to gen. 1. 31. & 2. 23 , 24. ) and therefore , being sanctified first by the word of god and prayer , may lawfully be used . ( see 1 tim. 4. 3 , 4 , 5. ) which plainly shews , that st. paul means such apostates as abstain from , or prohibit marriage and meats as in themselves unlawful and unclean and contaminating . which thing can neither be objected to the antient nor modern church-practise , using abstinence from some meats for the chastisement of the body , not for any uncleanesse in the food , and not forbidding marriage to any single person absolutely , but only upon his voluntary undertaking such an employment , with which they imagin a married condition not so well to sute . in which case , if necessary abstinence from marriage be a fault , the apostle himself may seem to comply with it in those expressions of his forementioned concerning the widows , 1 ti● . 5. 11 , 12. 2ly . he will find it manifest by experience , that this prophecy of the apostle was most eminently fulfilled in other persons of these latter times ( whom these fathers even in these points most vehemently resisted ) they affirming downright all marriage , especially with reference to procreation of children ( therefore the married were advised by them in such manner to use their wives , as to avoid this : see s. aug. de morib . manich. c. 18. ) to be unlawful , and the work or dedesign of the devil , as likewise flesh-diet to be unclean and defiling . they forbid living creatures as detesting them , saith epiphanius , not in respect of preserving continency , or a vertuous life , but out of fear and fancy , that they might be defiled by eating such living creatures . wine they use not at all , saying , 't is diabolical . and s. austin , contra faust. l. 30. c. 5. ye call the creature unclean , because the devil ( ye say ) frames flesh out of the more feculent part of natural matter . such were some of the g●osticks , eucratites , m●ntanists , marcionites , and in the last place the manichees , who , not holding all things to have been created by the same good god , but this lower world by an evil principle , or by the prince of darkness , as they call him , affirmed in the begetting of a man , that the soul , which they account to be a part of the substance of god himself , becomes fertered and imprisoned in the walls or handy-work of the devil , i. e. the body , and therefore was marriage , as occasioning such imprisonment , forborn by all their elect ; and though this was permitted to their auditors , yet ( saith s. austin ) it was not by telling them it was no sin , but by shewing favour to the persons thus sinning , because they allowed them maintenance . 3. again he will find , that when they were accused by the fathers for such errors , it was ordinary with them to recriminate the orthodox with the same things , both for their frequent abstinences from flesh , and some other fruits , and for their ( to some persons at least ) recommending virginity , who in this matter were answered by them after the same manner , as the protestants , objecting the same things , are now by the church catholic . see chrysostom , ambrose , and lastly doctor hamond on this place of timothy , understanding it of the same heretics . lastly he will find that fa●stus the maniches made the very same objection to prove profess'd chastity to be the doctrin of devils . to whom st. augustin thus answers , i am now afraid in the behalf even of the apostle himself , lest he should seem to have introduced the doctrin of devils into iconium , when by his speeches be enflamed a young maid already betrothed , to a love of perpetual virginity , and when he pronounced damnation to widows transgressing their vow . 12. to come home to the celibacy of priests in particular , whereas the doctor build much on the authority of paphnutius , and the mind of the famous first general council of nice thereupon , let him consider what an author ( not partial he may be sure for the roman church ) has said of that point , that is , the patria●e of presbyterians , mr. cartwright , the council of nice ( says he ) did affirm and teach that to those who are chosen to the ministry unmarried , it was not lawful to take any wife afterward ; only , being married before intrance into the ministry , it was lawful for them to use the benefit of that precedent marriage . and paphnutius shews that not only this was before that council , but was an antient tradition of the church , in which both himself and the rest of the council rested , for a motion being made by some in the council , that the married presbyters ( such as were married before made presbyters ) should after their ordination be separated from their wives , this paphnutius , a reverend bishop and a confessor , though himself never married , opposed , saying , grave jug●m , — this was a heavy yoke , &c. and that perhaps such a strict rule of continency could not be observed by all clergy-mens wives . [ but now mark what follows ] . that it was sufficient that those who had entred into the clergy before they had married wives secundum veterem ecclesiae traditionem , according to the churches antient tradition , ' should afterward forbear from marrying : but yet that none ought to be separated from his wife that he had married before , when yet a laick . the story is in socrates , l. 1. c. 8. & in z●zomen , l. 1. c. 22. thus the preacher gets not much advantage from paphnutius . 13. now for as much as concerns the controversie touching marriage of priests , bellarmin will grant , that the vow of continence was annexed to holy orders onely by the churches decree : and consequently that it may be dispensed with . moreover that the roman church in several cases hath permited the grecian priests the use of their wives to whom they were married before their ordination . and indeed , considering the temper of the eastern countries , far more enclin'd to such passions , than that of the europeans , we find the eastern churches gave themselves far greater liberty than the western . yet no antient canon ●f either of the churches can be ●ound that permitted priests to contract marriage after ordination : and even among the grecians , a cohabitation with their wives was forbidden to priests , who attended the altar . 14. but what the universal belief and practise of the western churches was , our preacher may collect from the following testimonies . therefore not to insist upon the generally esteem'd and resolved unlawfulnesse for bishops and priests after their ordination to contract matrimony , ( of a dispensation from which not one example can be given ) ; it appears , that a matrimonial use of wives to the formerly married , was forbidden , 1. by the second council of carthage , express in this point : it was agreed unto by all the bishops , that bishops , priests , deacons , and such who dispense sacraments , should be observers of chastity , and abstain even from their own wives , that so what the apostles taught , and antiquity observed , we likewise may keep . 2. the second african council thus decreed , whereas relation was made of the incontinence of certain ecclesiastics , though with their own wives , this council thought good that , according to former decrees , bishops , priests and deacons should contain even from their wives ; which if they do not , let them be removed from their ecclesiastical office. as for other inferior clarks , they are not compell'd hereto . but let every church observe their own custom . 3. saint ambrose witnesseth the same , you , ( says he ) who with pure bodies , uncorrupted modesty , and being estranged even from conjugal conversation , have received the grace of the holy ministry , know well that we must exhibit the same ministry without offence , without stain , neither must we suffer it to be violated with any matrimonial act. this i have not omitted to speak because in certain remote plates , some have pr●created children , when they exercised priesthood . and again , the apostle speaking of a bishop , sayes , having children , not getting them . 4. saint hierom writing against vigilantius , sayes , what shall the churches of the east do ? what shall the churches of egypt do ? and of the see apostolick ? all which receive clerks , either such as are virgins or continent , or if they have wives , such as cease to be husbands to them . the like is said in the conclusion of his book against iovinian . and he writes to pamachius thus , if married men like not this , let them not be angry with me , but with the holy scriptures , with all bishops , priests and deacons , who know they cannot offer sacrifice , if they use the act of marriage . 5. we are wont ( says saint augustin ) to propose to them the continence of ecclesiasticks , who for the most part are compelled against their wills to undergo this burden , and yet having received it , they , by gods assistance , bear it to their end . i will conclude with the spanish council of eliberis , more ancient then st. augustins time , nay , ancienter then the first general council of nice , the council hath thought good , that it should be absolutely commanded to bishops , priests , deacons , sub-deacons , to abstain from their wives , and not to beget children . 15. that the eastern churches took to themselves anciently a greater liberty , is to be understood not generally ; for in many of them a● great a strictness was observed : as , besides the forecited t●stimony of s. hier●m , concerning the churches of the east and of egypt , appears from origen , eusebius , and epiphanius , who all require continence in priests , even from their wives , if they have any ; and particularly , s. epiphanius says , that to do otherwise is not to observe the canons , but to follow our natural inclinations , soon weary of such a burden . and ●ow the doctor may do well to consider what a novelty he has found out to entertain his auditors with ; especially , since all the forecited canons and practices ( which are within the time of the four first councils ) were in force in england at the reformation , as england was a member of the western patriarchat , and therefore could not , without a transgression of all ecclesiastical order , be repealed by this single national church : much less could this church without a criminal , formal schism , make such a generally received practice a pretence for separation . 16. his allegation out of clemens of alexandria , that some of the apostles had wives , is granted : but did they , after their executing their office of priesthood , lie with them ? did they leave any young apostles behind them ? as for the apostolick canon which forbids priests , &c. to cast off their wives : what would he infer from hence ? does he think married persons are husbands and wives only in the night ? that which the canon intended was , that ecclesiastical persons should not make their office a pretence to cast off the care of providing for their wives , or to be divorced from them : that is , such as ●ere married , and had wives before they entred into orders , who afterwards must not refuse cohabitation with them , except when they officiate , unless with their wives consent , in the eastern c●urches , that the priests under the law were married , cannot be denied : since priesthood necessarily descending by generation , marriage was thereore necessary . but sure he does not think such a carnal , umbratick priesthood , is fit to be a pattern for our christian priesthood , wholly spiritual , and withal elective . yet he may take notice , that even in that legal priesthood , at the times when they solemnly attended on the altar , they had no matrimonial commerce with their wives : they came not reeking out of their beds into gods sanctuary , as may be gathered from 1 sam. 2. 4. and the prohibition in exod. 19. 15 , 22. be ready the third day , and cannot at your wives ; on which place st. ambrose discourses thus , filios susceperunt & id tanquam usu veteri defendunt ; there are priests and deacons in some secret places that defend their use of marriage by the practice of old , when the duty of sacrificing had its interval of dayes . and yet then even the people were sanctified by abstaining from their wives two or three dayes before , and wash●d their garments , that they might approach pu●● unto the sacrifice , si tanta in figura observanti● quanta in veritate , if the observation [ of ch●stity ] were so strict in the figure what ought i● to be in the truth , disce sacerdos atque levi● quid sit lavare vestimenta tua ●t mund●m corpus 〈◊〉 lebr and is exhibeas sacramentis . 17. to conclude , celibacy to the clergy being only injoyn'd by an ecclesiastical law , as being a thing at the least no way repugnant to the divine law , nay , much recommended therein ; it is certainly lawful enough , though from the beginning it had been otherwise : for the church hath liberty of making laws concerning such things from time to time , as she sees fit , and her subjects are obliged to obey them . chap. xviii . of divorce . the practice of the roman church manifestly mistaken by the preacher . 1. the doctors last novelty is , the church of romes allowing liberty of divorce betwixt man and wife , for many more causes then the cause of fornication , contrary , sayes he , to the will of our blessed saviour , revealed to us without a parabl● , as if they meant nothing more then the opening a way to rebel against him . a heavy charge : but for the legality of it , he alledges in the margin an express canon of the council of trent , which , whether he reads à toto , or à toro , says nothing at all to his purpose , proper divorce being therein not so much as thought of . and he himself saw and proved , it made nothing to his purpose , yet serv'd his turn , because chemnitius , a malicious lutheran , said falsely and ridiculously ▪ that the papal separation from bed and board 〈◊〉 in many ways a dissolution of the conjugal tie . he would ●ain have maldonate thought to speak on his side too , but it is apparently otherwise . 2. truly this is a quarrel so properly al' alamand , that one would think the doctor took only an occasion thereby to let the court see his critical diligence in observing the false and true impressions of the canons of the council of trent , in some of which he has read [ ● toto ] which makes no sence : and in others [ a to●o ] which only could be the councils ●xpression . but we hope an undiligent prin●ter ( who for all that may be good roman catholic ) shall not make the roman church it self causally schismatical , and thereby excuse the preachers separation . 3. it is pitty to lose time about such a trifle , which , i think , never before this sermon , was by any english protestant reckon'd among the pretended criminal novelties of the roman church . ( yet i may be mistaken , for there are a world of sermons and treatis●● , like his , in intrinsic value , which never had the fortune to be made so current . ) howe're , left he should be angry if so materlal a part of his sermon be neglected , a little pains shall not break squares between us . 4. he may therefore take notice , that in the businesse of marriage there are , among catholic writers , distinguish'd four sorts of separations : 1. a iewish divorce , which in latin we seldom call divortium , but repudium . 2. a christian divorce , properly so called . 3. a separation a toro . 4. a separation both a toro & cohabitatiore . 5. touching the first , if we have regard to the direct intention of god and his servant moses , it was no other , nor ought to have been put in practice upon other grounds then the christian divorce , allow'd by our saviour , that is , for fornication only . but by the permission in the old law , there might follow that divorce , a second mariage by either of the parties , whether innocent or guilty : yet not upon every cause a● the iews practis●d it , but besides adultery only propter turpitudinem , for some notorious uncleannesse extreamly distastful . now , notwithstanding such permission , which was meerly for the hardness of iewish hearts , their divorce ●or any other cause , and especially their second marriage after it , was not excused from sin , but only from a legal punishment : and the principal motive was , left worse effects , as poysoning , or any other way of murdering , &c. should be practised by the discontented party , in case a total separation might not be permitted . this supremest degree of jewish separation ( or repudium ) does not intirely dissolve the matrimonial contract , which being consummate of its own nature i● indissoluble ; for the parties , being by matrimony become one flesh ; and one principle of a new stock , cannot by any following act or accident , but only death , become two again , so as to be in the same capacity as they were before they were married ▪ and for this reason the iews , though permitted to marry afterward , yet sinned in so doing against the primary precept of god. those whom god hath joyned , let no man separate . 6. much lesse does the second species of separation , or the proper christian divorce dissolve this tye . the only lawful cause of which separation is by our savior allow'd , and by the catholic church acknowledged to be fornication , ( that is indeed , adultery : ) under which are likewise comprehended , as our most learned doctors say , other more grievous sins of unn●tural lusts. and the reason why only such sins may ( not must ) cause such a perpetual separation is , because they alone are directly contrary to conjugal faith ▪ by this separation , whensoever it is caused by the crime of the one party , ) neither of them , ( not the innocent party ) are permitted to betake themselves to a second marriage : for then they could no be reconciled but by a new marriage : and here the preacher may do well to consider what 〈◊〉 patron he has betaken himself to , which 〈◊〉 chemnitius , who , against our saviours law ( as all antiquity , and the practice of the englis● reform'd church interpret it ) contends for the lawful marriage of the innocent party , so teaching formal adultery . this separation for such a legal cause is perpetual , that is , the innocent persons may deprive the others of the right they have over their bodies , and are in a free condition even after the faulty persons repentance , whether or no to receive them again into their former condition : neither can it be imputed to the innocent person , if the criminal should by such a separation fall into the sin of adultery . 7. the other two separations ( not divorces ) one whereof is only [ a toro ] from the bed , the other from cohabitation also , may be made for other causes , besides fornication . as for s●m very infectious diseases ; for almost irreconcileable quarrels , for attempts of killing or wounding one another , &c. such separations are not so perpetual as divorces , each of the parties being bound ; assoon as these impediments of conjugal conversation are removed , to return , as before , to a matrimonial amity and correspondence ; and till then , i would ask the doctor , whether he have the courage to admit into his bed , or even his house , a serpent not only full of venom , but ready and attempting to kill him with it ? or if he have not this courage , whether he will acknowledg such a separation so necessary , even to the preservation of life , to be a divorce damnable , because not for fornication ? what he will answer , i know not ; but what he must , if he go about to maintain his assertion , i am certain will be very irrational . 8. let him reflect on the practise of his own church , where he cannot but have heard of the common distinction of divorces a vinculo matrimonii , & à mensa & toro : these two are both allow'd in england : now i ask the doctor , of which does our saviour speak ? if he say of the first , then clearly the husband of an adultresse may marry again ; which is contrary to the law : if he say of the second , still ●e contradicts his own law , which every day allows a separation for other causes , besides that of fornication . can we believe the doctor never read the ordinary cases wherein di●orses are granted , as pre-contract , fear , frigidity , consanguinity ? &c. all which dissolve the very marriage it self , and yet in all these the marriage was valid , till actual divorce , and the children shall bear the fathers name , and inherit his lands , if there never happen an actual divorce ; this the wise men of our nation do , and never think they open a way to rebel against christ. something like this , for the second branch of the distinction , st. paul himself does , and sure he cannot be opposite to the will of our saviour ; if , says he , the vnbeliever depart , let him depart , a brother or sister is not subject in such cases , that is , the innocent may remain separate : and why may not the laws of a nation regulate that liberty , which the apostle allows to every private person ? or why may not a general council determin such points as well as the laws of a particular nation ? thus i conceive it clear'd , that you and we are in this particular either both innocent , or both guilty . chap. xix . of schism . the unpardonableness of that crime , acknowledged by antiquity , &c. no cause or pretence can excuse it . 1. having followed the doctor through all his vainly pretended novelties of doctrine : we are at last arrived to the most concerning point of all , schism : most concerning certainly ; for there is not any one of the fore-mentioned doctrines , which in themselves considered , would absolutely destroy souls , though they erred about them ; but schism alone , whatsoever error of doctrine , yea though no error of doctrine , were either indeed , or pretended to be a cause of it , will be inevitably damning to every soul guilty of it ; which damnation neither rectitude of faith , nor any good works , nor even martyrdom it self will be able to prevent . for this cause , ( sayes st. augustine ) our christian creed concludes with the articles touching the church , because if any one be found separated from her , he shall be excluded out of the number of god's children : neither shall he have god for his father , who will not have the church for his mother . it will nothing profit such an one that he hath been orthodox in belief , done so many good works , &c. 2. this is a truth generally testified by the ancient doctors of god's church , and not at all questioned by the more sober writers of the english church who have written of schism , &c. they all are ready , in words at least , to say with st. denys of alexandria , that we ought rather to endure any torments , then consent to the division of god's church , since the martyrdom to which we expose our selves by hindring a division of the church , is no less glorious , then that which is suffer'd for refusing to sacrific● to idols . and with st. pacian , though ( the schismatick ) novatian hath been put to death ( for the faith ) yet he hath not been crown'd : why not crown'd ? because he dy'd out of the peace , concord and communio● of the church , separated from that comm●● mother , of whom , who ever will be a marly● must be a member . and with st. iren●us , there cann●t possibly be made any reformation of such importance , as the mischief 〈◊〉 schism is pernicious , &c. 3. but i do not find that protestant doctors have endeavour'd to penetrate into the true grounds , why , above almost all other sins a christian is capable of committing , schism , that is the setting up an altar against an altar , or the relinquishing the external communion of the church , the making collects or assemblies without , yea against the consent of bishops or church governours , &c. should be a sin so unpardonable , that no ignorance ( unless supposed such as is invincible ; which i fear much fewer then is ordinarily imagined , of those , who have any liberal education can pretend to , in that great evidence and light which they have of the continued succession , unity of doctrine , perfect obedience to their spiritual superiours , penances , and retirements from the world , and several other signal marks of the one , holy , catholick , apostolick church ) no ignorance , i say , no surreption , provocation , &c. can excuse it . some may be more deeply guilty , and obnoxious to a heavier damnation then others , as ring-leaders more then followers ; but damnation is by the fathers generally denounced as the portion of all . 4. the true reason whereof may be deduced from the example of all other governments whatsoever . the greatest offence a subject can commit against monarchy , is an actual attempt , or rather the attempt executed , by which monarchy is disolved : inwardly to condemn the laws of such a government , to entertain principles , which if put in practise , would withdraw subjects from their due obedience , is an offence of an high nature , but the actual cantonising of a kingdom , and the raising in it courts , or iudicatories independent on , and opposite to the common tribunal of the country , is the utmost of all crimes : both the seducers and seduced are not only deprived of the priviledges belonging to good subjects , but pursued by arms as the worst of all enemies . 5. it is so in god's church ; the main thing our creed teaches us to believe of it , is its unity , without which it is not a church : now if vnity , then order , then subordination of governours , &c. what therefore is the great sin against this fundamental constitution of the church , but schism ? a dissolving the communion and connexion that the members of this great body have among themselves , and with relation to the whole ? we all willingly acknowledge , that the great sin of the synagogue , the sin that fill'd up the measur● of the crimes of the iews , was their murdering our lord. now sayes st. chrysostom , we shall not merit and incur●d less cruel punishment , if we divide the unity and plenitu● of the church ( the mystical body of our lord ) then those have done which pierced , mangled and tore his own body . and the very like expression hath st. cyprian . 6. there are very few heresies ( that is , only such errors as are formally destructive to those very few verities or articles of faith , without an explicite belief whereof no man can be saved ) which do in themselves , simply , as false opinions , universally destroy salvation : indeed , if they have the formality of heresie joyned to them , and be maintained with a knowledge that they are contrary to the sence and authority of the church , then they have involved in them something of schism , or at least they are in an immediate disposition to schism , and in that regard all heresies , though in points of themselves less important , are damnative . but schism alone , though there be no heresie joyned with it , immediately divides from the body of christ , and consequently from christ himself . 7. but may not ignorance excuse the guilt of schism ? no : on the contrary in some regard it aggravates it . for though pride and malice be far greater in the leading schismaticks , persons of wit and learning : yet ignorant souls and ideots seem more to contradict human reason ; because the more ignorant they ought to know they are , and being confessedly no pastors , the more ought they to submit their judgments to authority , and consequently the preferring their own conduct ; or the conduct and direction of particular men or churches , before the universal authority of the church , the excommunicating ( as it were ) the whole church of god , the esteeming all christians , both pastors and flocks , as heathens and publicans , is a presumption so contrary to human nature and reason , that their want of learning is that which will most condemn them . i speak not now of persons absolutely ideots , who scarce know there are any other pastors , or any other church then their own , who pretend not at all to pass their judgements on other religions ; but know only what their pastors teach them , having no ability , by reason of their condition , to examine scriptures and churches : for such no doubt , may by their simplicity and absolute invincible ignorance , escape the malignity of schism . but i speak of inferiour tradesmen , of gentlemen and gentlewomen , who have a capacity of being rightly instructed , and better informed of that spiritual authority to which they owe their subjection , and yet who , by their own perversness , become trouble● of the church , and who , because they ca● read the scriptures , take upon them to judge of the sence of them , both for themselves and their pastors , &c. such as these no doubt have drunk in the very gall of schism , by usurping an authority , which express scripture sayes belongs only to pastors . 8. some learned persons ( particularly doctor steward ) attribute much to the temper of the english church , which he sayes is like st. cyprians , neminem condemantes , aut a communione separantes : and this alone they suppose will exempt protestants ( as it did st. cyprian ) from the imputation and penalty of schism , to which other violent calvinistical congregations are more obnoxious . but the case is not the same : this indeed did exempt st. cyprian , because as st. augustin sayes , the church had not then decided the dispute , to whose decision st. cyprian would certainly have submitted . the case of protestants is evidently different . if a province in england had withdrawn it self from the publick civil authority , would this excuse serve them to say , we do not intend to quarrel with those that continue in obedience to the king , we mean neither him nor them any harm , they shall be welcom to come among us , if they will , we will be good friends , we will not meddle with their doings : but we will be govern'd only by our own laws and magistrates & c ? i believe not : their civility in their rebellion , will not change the title of their crime , nor free them from the punishment due to it : it may perhaps qualifie the princes resentment ; but the civillest treason is treason . 9. being to examine the doctor 's plea , touching the point of schism , i thought requisite to premise this consideration of its heynousness , that both he and my self also , should consider it as the most important of all other , in which the least mistake will prove mortal . i will add a bold word , and undertake to justifie it : though it were far more probable that the catholick church had been guilty of innovation in all the points mentioned by the doctor : yet since by the protestants confession those points are not fundamental , their voluntary separating themselves from her communion , will be in god's esteem very schism . chap. xx. how the preacher vainly endeavours to excuse his church from schism . of the subordination of church governors and synods . the breach of their subordination , is the cause of all dis-unions and schisms . the unappealable authority of general councils , acknowledged by antiquity . 1. in this point of schism , to the end the doctor may clear protestants , and lay the weight of so great a crime on the catholick church , he argues thus , since besides corruptions in practice ( which yet alone cannot justify separation ) there were in the roman church so many corruptions in doctrine likewise intrenching on fundamentals , the schism could not be on the chruch of englands side , which was obliged to separate , so just a cause being given , but on theirs , who gave the cause of the separation ? now , that particular nations have a power to purge themselves from corruptions without leave from the see of rome , appears 1. by the concession of the most learned popish writers . 2. from the ancient practise of the kings of england , who were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 3. likewise from the codes and novels of justinian , the capitulare of charlemagne , and the endeavours of two late emperours . 4. from the examples of the kings of juda. he concludes , that had the pope been content with his primacy of order , they would never have cast off the yoke , which never had been put upon their necks ; whence appears , sayes he , that the vsurper made the schism . this is the substance of his discourse . 2. in answering this , i will proceed according to this method . 1. i will shew out of antiquity , from the example of all orderly governments , from evident reason , &c. what obedience every christian is obliged to perform to church governors , in the obstinate refusal of which , consists schism . 2. i will apply this to the present controversie , between the english and roman church . i will consider the validity of his allegations , and leave it to any indifferent mans conscience to judge whether they are sufficient to justifie the separation . 3. touching the first point , i take it for granted , that we both agree that our lord has placed in his church , ecclesiastical governours , to continue by a legitimate succession , to the end of the world : and that the exercise of their authority , consists partly in proposing doctrines to be believed , partly in making laws for discipline and order . and that the doctrines are to be no other , then such as either are expresly , or at least , in their immediate necessary principles , contained in divine revelation : no innovation , no change must be in them ; whereas orders for discipline may , according to the prudence of the church , sometimes admit alteration . likewise i believe , we agree that this lawful authority of church governours , or bishops , may be differently exercised , that is , either by their single persons , or in conjunction with others , meeting in synods diocesan , provincial , national , patriarkical , and oecumenical : the authority of which synods , is by degrees respectively encreased , according to the quality of them ; the lowest degree among these , being diocesan , and the supream unappealable authority being in oecumenical synods . to deny this in gross , is to make them ridiculous conventicles ; and the more plenary they are , the more dangerous and destructive of unity will they be , if they may be repealed by others less plenary . 4. thus far we agree ; but when we come to a precise declaration of the quality of that authority , by both sides agreed on in the general , here we begin to differ ; wherefore to the end , indifferent readers may be enabled distinctly , to view and judge on which side justice and truth lies ; i will , besides what has already been said of infallibility , plainly set down the catholick doctrine concerning this matter , with the exceptions , which the most learned controvertists of the english church have interposed against it . 5. there is in st. clements constitutions , a saying , that to every bishop is entrusted [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] the episcopal office vniversally . in like manner st. cyprian says , [ episcopatus unus est , cujus a singulis in solidum pars tenetur ] the episcopal office is but one , of which every bishop holds his portion in common . the meaning of which speeches is not , that every particular bishop is , in regard of his jurisdiction , an oecumenical bishop : but since the church in general is truly and perfectly one body , each bishop in it is so to administer his charge , as that he must have an eye to the whole . dioceses and provinces , &c. are not to be esteem'd as so many secular principalities independent and absolute , which can publish declarations and laws without any regard to their neighbours profit , or liking : it is not so in the church ; but every bishop , in executing his episcopal office , ought much more to be sollicitous of the general vnity , peace , and edification of the whole church , than of his own diocese : so that if any law , custom , or doctrine in it be discordant from , but especially if it condemn what is by law in force in the province , patriarchat , or much more the vniversal church , such a law ought not to be made , or being made , ought to be repealed . 6. as for the authority of bishops in synods , particularly in declaring doctrines , ( for in that we are at present principally concern'd ) such authority may be conceived to extend it self either to the notout-ward-contra-profession only , or to the inward assent , &c. between which two there is a great difference . 7. the common received catholick doctrine teacheth , that whereas in general councils ( the only tribunal which is by all acknowledg'd to be infallible ) there may be either , 1. a declaration of traditionary doctrines , which formerly before such declaration did not evidently and ●niversally appear to be traditionary : 2. or a decision of debates about clear and immediate consequences of such doctrines . in both these the church is infallible , infallible i say ( not to enlarge disputes beyond the present exigence ) at least in all points any way necessary to our salvation ; and this grounded upon those sure promises of our lord made to these guides of his church mentioned before , cap. 9. 11 , 12. and hence such both declarations and decisions are to be not only not contradicted , but submitted to by an internal assent ; the undiscover'd refusal of which assent , though it doth not render the refusers hereticks in the judgement of the church , as upon contradiction or refusal of assent would ( for ecclesia non judicat de internis : ) yet since such declarations and decisions are alwayes attended either with express , or at least imply'd anathemas to contrary doctrines , the contrary internal judgments are heretical . 8. of the acknowledged infallibility of the representative church in declarations of traditionary doctrines , we have sufficient testimonies from antiquity . st. athanasius , quoted also by st. epiphanius , professes , that he wonders how any one dares move a question touching matters defined in the nicen council , since , the decrees of such councils cannot be changed without errour ; therefore they are unalterable , and in our sense infallible . nor can there be any doubt , but those matters defin'd , were ancient and traditionary doctrines . and st. augustin sayes , the last iudgment of the church is a general council . the same holy father , treating of rebaptization formerly held by st. cyprian , and after by the donatists , says , that for that doctrine ( which was truly traditionary ) the donatists were hereticks , but st. cyprian not : why ? because it was permitted to the former fathers and bishops to debate , and , without breaking communion , to determine oppositly to one another in provincial councils : till in a general council , the true orthodox doctr●ne were without all further doubts confirmed . which authority ( says he ) st. cyprian , if it had been declared in his time , would without any doubt at all have believed . 9. in the next place , as touching decisions of controversies about ( not expressly traditionary doctrines , but ) clear and immediate consequences of such doctrines , it is absolutely necessary oft-times , for the church to make such decisions ; for otherwise the devil would have power to undermine a great part of our faith , if permission were given to maintain freely , any thing that does not appear to any one expresly , either in scripture or in tradition . thus , many of the articles of the nicen , constantinopolitan , and athanasian creeds , are only the clear and immediate consequences of express traditions , which articles , in the terms wherein they were there conceived , were not absolutely necessary to be believed , before the arising of heresies , forced the church further to explain the faith. and hence it is , that the enlargements and clearer explanations of our faith , in many doctrines , otherwise not necessary to be so generally known , must and will encrease to the worlds end , in case new heresies arise . 10. now such decisions are truly de fide , or objects of our faith : for though it be most certain , that the church neither hath , nor pretends to have any new revelations ; of christian verities , but the same faith which was delivered by the apostles , is still the faith of the church , and no more : there are no additions made , no new articles invented : notwithstanding the same articles , by occasion of heresies arising , may in succeeding times be further explained , and the truths implicitely involved in them may be discovered . in like manner , some traditionary points convey'd by the general practice of the church , when they come to be question'd or denyed by hereticks , are often explicitely declared in councils to be traditions , by which declaration , there is no new thing taught , but that which was formerly involved , is more clearly manifested , and that which was taught by practice is declared by words , and that which was known to the learneder part of christians , becomes extended to all : thus the doctrine of purgatory , prayer for the dead , invocation of saints , &c. have been in later councils made articles , not de novo , ( as the doctor misapprehends ) but they are lately testified to have been so anciently believed ; and so are all other new decisions of later councils , points of ancient faith , either in themselves explicitely , or in their necessary principles implicitely . and if , after such decisions of councils , there ariseth a new obligation ; that none can dissent from them without incurring the guilt of disobedience , so was there before an obligation of non-dissenting from the same points without falling into error ; and that in a matter of divine revelation . such points were alwayes matter of faith , if we would believe , in those particulars , what was divine truth ; though now indeed more necessary matter of our faith , out of the obedience also and submission that we owe to the church's judgement ; to which judgement we could have no obligation , before she declared it . neither can this be avoided when ever the church is by new risen errors necessitated to state or declare such a divine truth , but that such a new obligation will arise to christians , in relation to her , of believing it ; else to what end does the state it ? which obligation is also a restraint of our former liberty indeed , whereby we might then believe an error in divine matters , without the guilt of disobeying the church ; but this restraint is much for our benefit in our knowing and holding some truth now , which perhaps we did not formerly , and that in a time , when we are in more danger , from seducers , of falling into the contrary error . and now behold , these necessary decisions are called the church's new articles of faith ; this is her chief accusation ; and the same clamour now raised by the preacher against the council of trent for this matter , as was anciently by the arrians against the first general council , who cryed out against the new article and word consubstantiality , which was not found in their former creed ; as was anciently by the nestorians against the third general council , and by the eutychians against the fourth . and therefore , why may not the council of trent , for its defence , return the same answer to the preacher , as the fourth general council , which he professeth to allow , did to the eutychians ? ‖ — a not-much-discussed explication of the faith is sufficient ( say they ) for the benefit of sincere believers . but for those who endeavour to pervert the true doctrine , 't is necessary to make opposition to all those things which they erroneously broach , and to provide fit remedies to their objections . for if all would willingly acquiesce to the establishment of the [ nicene ] faith , and would disturb this clear way of piety with no innovation , it were meet , for the posterity of the church , to excogitate [ in their councils ] no new additions . but because there are many that decline from this right line , through the crooked paths of error , we are confirained with new discovery of truth to reduce them , and to refute their straying opinions with wholsom additions [ i. e. to the former doctrines of the church . ] not , as if we were ever seeking out some new thing tending to godliness , as though the former faith were defective , but that we may seek out those things which are judged salutary and beneficial in opposition to those things which are innovated by them . thus that council , whose words clearly demonstrate , that councils may define , not only traditionals in matters of faith , but any new conclusions which are necessarily and evidently derivative from them . and here let the equal reader judge , whether the doctor hath more reason to complain of the councils new articles , or the council of his , and his predecessors new errors . out of which evil yet , the wisdom of god , in the several ages , brings this good ( as evagrius ● accutely observes to the pagans , ‖ scandalized at the divisions and novelties of opinions that arose amongst christians ) that by occasions of heresies the orthodox dogmes are more accurately polished , and more entirely compiled , and that by this means the church every day increaseth in knowledge : i. e. by having the explicite articles of her faith more and more enlarged . as we see how much even in early times the athanasian creed ( by the springing up of several heresies in those days ) had enlarged the apostolick . 11. all these declarations and decisions framed by general councils , we roman catholicks do esteem our selves obliged to the assent unto , which is far more then not to contradict . and this obligation is founded on the infallible authority which we acknowledge in the catholick church , derived from the promises of christ , whose spirit shall lead her into all truth : the denial of which assent we affirm to be formal heresie : and an open contradiction to which authority ; is formal schism . 12. this we are taught concerning our duty and submission to general councils . and hereto we must add , that considering the present distracted state of the christian world , and especially the schism pertinaciously persisted in by the eastern patriarks , who live under the tyranny of the turk , and therefore will never probably be permitted to convene for the general union of christendom , it is almost become impossible that such general councils should now be assembled with all formalities , as the four first were , wherein all the five patriarks were present , at least by their deputies . yet , notwithstanding all this , we cannot without infidelity doubt that god will be wanting to his church to preserve it in truth and vnity . since therefore such an oecumenical council cannot be expected , as was during the times of the roman empire , the supremest that can now be had , ought to have the force and vertue of obliging , which the former ones had ; the anathemas of it must be as valid ; the decisions of it as much to be submitted to , and a renunciation of its doctrine and laws as heynously schismatical , as of any council that ever went before : therefore doctor bramhal , lord primate of armagh , in the preface of his reply to the bishop of chalcedon , declaring that he submits himself to the representative church , that is , to a free general council , most rationally adds this clause , or to so general , as can be procured . 13. thus of general councils . as for inferior subordinate councils , though their decrees touching doctrines and laws for discipline are not unappealable , yet an obligation , in both these respects , they impose on christians living respectively within their precincts . the decisions of a provincial synod are to be internally assented to , except they be evidently erroneous , or contradictory to those of a superior synod , so that without schism they cannot be openly contradicted . yet the same decisions may be annulled by a patriarchical synod : and all by an oecumenical , of which alone all the decisions and laws are irreversible , because there is no authority upon earth superior to it , and in all governments an inferior authority can never reverse what hath once been established by a superior , especially if that establishment hath been actually submitted to : for , if a provincial synod could annul the formerly received acts of a national , or a national of a patriarchical , there must of necessity follow a dissolution of all government and vnity , as to the whole catholick church , yet we profess in our creed , vnam catholicam — add to this , that in all synods the major part alwayes must decide : so that the fewer , however they may be esteem'd the better or more learned , must submit to them : these likewise all use of meetings and consultations will be evacuated . 14. this fundamental rule of all government and vnity is the only true , unering touch-stone , by which a judgement is to be made concerning schism ; if doctor pierce can furnish us with a better , let it be produced : but that being impossible , he must give us leave to make use of this to examin the cause between the roman catholick church , and all other congregations that call themselves reformed . but indeed it is lost labour to apply such a rule as this to any calvinistical , independent , or fanatick congregations , because they renounce both all such laws , and the whole authority and offices of those that made them : therefore ( leaving them to the severe judgement of him who said , where are those my enemies that will not have me to rule over them ? ) i will consider the controversie , as the preacher stated it , between the roman catholick and english protestant churches , i say [ as he hath stated it ] because being to treat of schism , he hath given the right notion of it , and not mispent time and paper , as some others have done , with vain discourses of an internal and external separation , &c. as if there were no danger in external schism or dividing of communion , unless men also have , with the presbyterians , &c. lost all even appearance of charity to all christian churches before them , damning all who believe that artiticle of our creed concerning the unity and authority of the church . chap. xxi . the fundamental rule of church-government . limitations of the authority of gen councils . their grounds made by arch bishop lawd , dr. feild , &c. of points fundamental , and non-fundamental . protestants allow not so much authority to gen. councils , as god commanded to be given the iewish sanedrim . of the pretended independence of the english church , from the example of cyprus . the foresaid fundamental rule of all government , that no laws can validly be repealed by an authority inferior to that , by which they were enacted , is a rule not now invented to serve our present purpose , but written in the hearts of all mankind , that consider what government is ; and it is , as to church-matters , particularly taken notice of by st. augustine , when he declares the order that is in the church , and which alone can keep it in unity ; particular writings of bishops , saies he , if any error be in them , may be corrected by others more learned , or by synods ; and synods themselves assembled either in provinces , or regions ought without any tergiversation to yield and submit to the authority of plenary councils ; and oftimes former plenary councils , may be corrected by other following plenary councils . 2. this most irrefragable rule , is that by which schism may most certainly , and undeniably be discovered . and therefore though in gross it be admitted by protestants , ( i mean the wisest and most learned among them ) yet out of a necessity of maintaining the grounds of the english reformation , they put such restrictions & exceptions to it , as utterly take away all use of it . for whereas s. augustine makes the supream authority of the church , to reside in plenary or general councils , because he withal implies , that such councils may be corrected , they therefore take the liberty to reject them , at least in decisions in their esteem of less importance , and by that means altogether inervate their authority : not considering that in case the decisions , which he saies , may be mended , should regard matters of belief , which perhaps , upon better consideration , may be expressed more commodiously , and so , as that they may be less liable to misconstruction ; yet it belongs not to any particular men or churches to correct them , but onely to succeeding councils of equal authority . to demonstrate this , i will here set down what authority learned protestants , such as doctor field , the late arch-bishop lawd , &c. acknowledg in general councils , and withal , how they circumscribe the same authority . 3. these agree , that the universal church is infallible in fundamentals : hence says the archbishop , the visible church hath in all ages taught that unchanged faith of christ in all points fundamental : doctor white had reason to say this , &c. again , the whole church cannot universally erre in absolutely fundamental doctrines , therefore it is true also that there can be no just cause of making a schism from the whole church . again , quoting kickerman , he saith , that she cannot erre , neither in the faith , nor in any weighty point of faith. and from doctor field he asserts , that she cannot fall into heresie , &c. that she may erre indeed in superstructions and deductions , and other unnecessary truths , from her curiosity or other weakness . but if she can erre either by falling away from the foundation totally , or by heretical error in it , she can no longer be holy : ( for no assemblies of hereticks can be holy : ) and so that article of the creed , [ i believe the holy catholick church ] is gone . now this holiness , saith he , errors of a meaner allay take not away from the church . the same archbishop likewise acknowledges , that a general council de post facto is unerrable : that is , when the decisions of it are received and admitted generally by catholicks . 4. thus far goes the arch-bishop , attended by doctor field , doctor white , &c. but being necessarily obliged to maintain the separation of his own church from the roman , &c. he ( treating of that point ) extends most enormously the errors of the church in non-fundamentals ; for then , forgeting his former phrases of unprofitable curiosities , unnecessary subtilties , unnecessary doctrines , to which her curiosity or weakness , may carry her beyond her rule , he saith , the roman church held the fundamentals literally , yet she erred grosly ; dangerously , nay damnably in the exposition of some of them : that she had errors , though not fundamental , yet grating upon the foundation , &c. now what he speaks of the roman , is manifest , must as well be applied to the eastern church too ; and so to the whole church catholick at luthers discession , for most of the doctrines found fault with by protestants in the roman church , themselves see to have been , and still to be taught by the eastern , &c. with an accession on of other errors , from which the roman is free . 5. hitherto these writers speak of the authority of the church onely in generals : the church , say they , cannot erre in fundamentals ; she may erre in non-fundamentals : but who is to discern between fundamentals and non-fundamentals ? and who is to judg of the churches error in non-fundamentals ? doctor field will tell us to this purpose , that no particular man or church , may so much as profess publickly , that they think otherwise then has been determined in a general council , except with these three limitations . 1. vnless he know most certainly the contrary to what the church has determined . 2. if there be no gainsaying of men of worth , place and esteem ? 3. if there appear nothing that may argue an unlawful proceeding . and the arch-bishop briefly to this effect , states the point : that general councils , lawfully called and ordered , and lawfully proceeding , are a great and awful representation , and cannot erre in matters of faith , upon condition . 1. that they keep themselves to god's rule , and not attempt to make a new one of their own . 2. and they are with all submission to be observed by every christian , where scripture , or evident demonstration come not against them . 6. these are their limitations , and sure it was a very great necessity , that forced such wise and learned men , to grant so licentious a liberty , for annulling what ever hath been , or shall be determined by the supream tribunal in gods church . a liberty never heard , or thought of from doctor pierces beginning , i am certain . a liberty manifestly destructive to all their own articles , canons , and acts of parliament : for sure they will not say , that these are of more sacred and inviolable authority , then those of the whole church : do none pretend to know most certainly the contrary to those determinations ? or do none of worth , place , and esteem , gainsay them , when all the christian world reform'd , and non-reform'd , except a little portion of england , absolutely reject them ? lastly , does nothing appear , that may argue an unlawful proceeding in hen. the eighths first reformation , or k. edwards , or q. elizabeths ? but there was no possible avoiding the concession of this liberty , apparently ruinous to themselves ; because they have usurped it against the whole church , could not refuse it to any that would make use of it to destroy their own . 7. let us here briefly examine these grounds , laid by the arch-bishop , &c. viz. 1. the church is unerrable in fundamentals , but subject to error in non-fundamentals . 2. the decisions of general councils , are to be observed , where scripture , or evident demonstration come not against them . 8. in these assertions is included a supposition not denied by catholicks , that even among doctrines determin'd by the church , there are some which are in themselves fundamental , others not so : but yet withal those doctrines which in themselves are not fundamental , being once determin'd by the church , are necessary to be assented to by all catholicks , to whom they are so represented , for in those circumstances , obedience is a fundemental duty . but though catholicks allow this distinction in general , they withal profess , it is impossible for any particular persons of themselves to determin among all the churches decisions , and say , this or this point is necessary and fundamental , the others not . and the reason is , because the terms necessary , fundamental , &c. are relative terms when applied : for that is necessary to be believed and known by one , which is not so by another : many doctrines are necessary to churches for their well ordering , which are not so to any single persons , parishes , &c. &c. for this reason all decisions of the church are sacred to them ; no permission to question any of them is allow'd : and by this means the church is continued in unity , and by assenting to all decisions , they are sure never to dissent from those that are necessary . whereas protestants taking a liberty of discerning between fundamentals and non-fundamentals , and of dissenting in non-fundamentals at least , wherein they think the church catholick may be fallible ( though they have no rule by which to judg so ) are , besides a certainty of dis-union , exposed to errours even in fundamentals . 9. the ground upon which those learned protestants conclude a fallibility even in the universal church as to doctrines not fundamental [ besides the manifest interest of their own church ] is because the end why christ made such promises of leading his church into all truth , was , lest the gates of hell should prevail against her , which can be done only by heresies against fundamental doctrines : and therefore god's assistance for other points not fundamental , is not to be presumed on . 10. but , though this position in general were allow'd them , that the church is fallible in unnecessaries , this will not excuse them for dissenting from the church in any particular doctrines actually decided by a general council . themselves acknowledge that all dissenting even internal is unlawful without a certain demonstration , that the church hath actually erred in such and such doctrines . but which way possibly can any particular , person , or church , arrive to such a demonstration ? it must be by producing express scripture , or universal tradition , formally opposite and contradictory to what the universal church hath declared . who can think , who dares believe , that those supreme guides of all christians , who were by our lord placed in the church , and graced with such promises , who are the only guardians of the scripture it self , and only unappealable iudges of the sense of it , should conspire to propose doctrines formally and manifestly contrary to express scripture or evident demonstration ? and as for universal tradition , there can be no iudge of it , but the whole church : particular persons , or churches , are utterly uncapable of making such a judgment , especially in opposition to the whole church . 11. it were happie therefore , if protestants , considering the promises of christ , and the necessity of unity in the church , would allow but as much submission to the supreme tribunal of his church , as god obliged the iews to perform to their sanedrim , to which no such promises were made . for then , though in thesi they did affirm the church to be fallible , yet they would acknowledge , that not only all declaration of non-assenting is forbidden , but an internal assent is of necessary obligation to every one of her decisions . 12. let them seriously consider the passage of deuteronomy heretofore produced , in which god commands the jews under the penalty of death , to obey whatsoever sentence should be pronounced by the present iudges of those dayes in any controversies touching the law. this precept argues that the supreme council of the iews was infallible in fundamentals . and indeed god had promised that the scepter should not depart from judah , nor a law-giver from between his knees till shiloh ( that is the messias ) came . by vertue of which promise the iewish religion could not fail in fundamentals : and the effect of this promise was manifestly performed : for as to the outward pro●ession and practises of the mosaical law , it was alwayes continued , in so much as our saviour himself enjoyned obedience to all the commands of those who sate in moses his chair . i say as to the outward practises of it : for in the spiritual sense of it , the iewish ecclesiastical magistrates were horribly perverted , so far as to oppose and murder the messiah himself , typified therein ; but now shiloh was already come , and god's promise of indefectibility rested in this new high priest , and his successors . 13. notwithstanding all this , yet errors might creep in about non-fundamentals , as the rabbins confess , when they suppose a future sanedrim might annul the decisions of a former council ; in which case the ordinances of the later must take place , and without all tergiversation be obeyed . so as though they , being indeed in such things fallible , should command any thing contrary to the true sense of the law , the iews were under the utmost penalty obliged to obey them , which obedience required a submission of judgment and internal assent to such commands , that they were agreeable to god's law , because it would be utterly unlawful to obey any commands of men , which the subject believed to be contrary to god's law. now the reasonableness of this command of god appears in this , that it was a less evil and inconvenience that some legal precepts of no great importance should be transgressed , than that contentions and disputes should be endless 14. from this pattern protestants may be instructed , that though they should allow a general council no more obliging authority , than the iews did to their sanedrim , which was infallible in fundamentals , but subject to error in non-fundamentals , they can never have a warrant to dissent from any decisions of such a council , but ought to submit their internal judgment to them . for , since it is impossible they should have any demonstrative proofs that such councils have de facto erred , i mean in matter of doctrine ; all other inferiour judgments , all only probable arguments against them , ought to cease ; the judgment of the whole church rendring all contrary opinions altogether improbable . so that though ( upon their supposition that the church in non-fundamentals is fallible ) she should have erred in such not-much-concerning decisions , and by consequence their assent would be erroneous , yet that small incommodity would be abundantly recompenc'd with the most acceptable vertue of obedience , humble submission of judgment , love of peace and unity which accompanies it . besides , that both truth and errour in such things lyes only on the churches , and not at all on their account . 15. but since protestants find an extraordinary difficulty more than catholicks , to submit their judgments to authority , and are apt to think all their opinions and perswasions to be certain knowledges ; let it be supposed that their first reformers not being able to perswade themselves to renounce their opinions , should thereupon have been excommunicated by the church : in this case they ought to have suffered such censures with patience , and not voluntarily forsake her communion ; and much less ought they to have set up , or repair to an anti-communion : for that was in the highest degree a formal schism . 16. in all this discourse touching the infallibility of the church , and the unlawfulness of separation from it ; i do not mean a church of one denomination , no , not the roman , as such , for so we ascribe not infallibility to her : but i intend the vniversal church , which we call roman catholick , because all true orthodox churches ( an union of which , constitutes the universal church , acknowledge the roman church , to be the root of their unity . therefore protestants , in vain , seek to excuse their separation , upon pretence it was onely from the roman , not from the vniversal church : because , 1. a separation from the external communion of any one true member of the catholick church , for doctrines which are commonly held by other churches in communion with that member , is indeed a separation from all churches ; which is manifestly the case of the english separation . 2. because it is evident , that the pretended reformed churches , really separated themselves a toto mundo . a thing which calvin confesseth in an epistle of his to melancthon , in these words , nec non parvi refert , &c. for it doth not a little concern us , that not the least suspition of any discord risen among us , descend to posterity : for it were a thing more then absurd , after we have been constrained to make a discession from the whole world , if we , in our very beginnings , should also divide from one another . and which chillingworth also confesseth in several places , cap. 5. sect . 55. as for the external communion of the visible church , ( saith he ) we have , without scruple formerly granted , that protestants did forsake it : that is , renounce the practise of same observances , in which , the whole visible church before them , did communicate . and sect . 56. what do you conclude ( saith he ) from ●ence , but that seeing there was no visible church , but corrupted , [ where note , that he must affirm not only corruptions in manners , but also in doctrines and lawes , for from several of these , he will not deny luther to have made a discession ] luther forsaking the external communion of the corrupted church , could not but forsake the external communion of the catholick church . well , let this be granted ; what will come of it ? that luther must be a scismatick ? by no means . i say , it is evident ( as these confess ) that the pretended reformed churches really separated themselves from the whole world , that is , from that holy catholick church which we believe is to continue so in every age : since not one church upon earth antecedent to their separation , can be found out with which they are joyned in external communion , not one which has laws , or governors in common with them , not one that will joyn with them , or with which they will joyn in publick offices , lyturgies , sacrifices and synods . the english church doth not pretend a communion with churches manifestly heretical , as the armenian , coptite , abissine , nestorian , iacobite , georgian churches , &c. and for the grecian , the reformers , at their first separation , were actually divided from her ; and sure they will not say , that by separation from the roman , they became ipso facto in communion with the grecian ; or if they would say so , the grecian would protest against them , as we see their patriark hieremias did , &c. 17. and that is but a very ineffectual salve , which a late learned protestant writer in his discourse of schism , insists upon , when , seeing clearly the english church could not pretend a communion with any other ancient churches in the world , he therefore claims priviledges of the english church , equal to those ancient ones of cyprus ; which was a church independent of all other , and exempted from the jurisdiction of the eastern patriark of antioch : for though this pretention could be made good , which is impossible , yet this would not serve their turn , considering the english church , ever since her conversion , acknowledged her self a member of the western patriarchate : but though she had indeed such a priviledge , and never renounced it , who will say the cyprian church , ( because exempted from certain acts of patriarckical iurisdiction , as ordinations , visitations , &c. ) could therefore independently of all the world , frame or change articles of faith , or be excused from subscribing to the decisions of councils , though onely patriarckical ? chap. xxii . the limitations of the churches authority , made by arch-bishop lawd , &c. examined . objections against the proceedings in the council of trent , answered . manifest illegality in q. eliz. reformation . secular and carnal ends in it . 1. having shew'd the indispensible obligation of even an internal assent that roman catholicks acknowledge due to the decisions of general councils , as being infallible , and which protestants ought also to perform , though they acknowledge such an infallibility to extend only to doctrines fundamental ; since the church her self hath not declar'd which of her decisions are fundamental , and which not , for she hath affixed anathemas to many , which in themselves are not fundamental , and hath said only , si quis dixerit ( not ) si quis non crediderit , concerning doctrines which are unquestionably fundamental and necessary : we will now examine the foremention'd limitations or cases in which it is said particular persons or churches may and ought to be dispensed with for yielding an assent to decisions of general councils touching matters not fundamental , or even for not contradicting them ; which limitations have been fixed by archbishop lawd , doctor field , &c. 2. in the first place , an assent even internal , say they , is to be given indispensably to all decisions of general councils touching such doctrines ( only ) as are fundamental , or points of necessary faith , because so far and no farther their infallibility extends . but who shall , or can judge what points are or are not of necessary faith with respect to all particular states of men or churches , when the church her self hath not made any distinction between them , and perhaps cannot ? surely prudence , and a most necessary care of our own salvation , by continuing in the unity of the church , would dictate to us , that since the church is as to fundamentals infallible , and therefore cannot mislead us to our danger , there can be no safety but in assenting to all her decisions , as if they were of necessary faith , for only by doing so , we can be sure not to err in necessary points , and we shall be certainly free from all danger of schism . 3. secondly , as to decisions made by general councils of doctrines not necessary ( if we could find them out ) the same internal assent , say they , is due , except in two cases . i. vnless scripture or evident demonstration come against them , whereby we know most certainly the contrary to what they have determined , in which case it is unlawful to assent , yea it is permitted rather to contradict and separate . but let any christian mans conscience judge , whether this be to be admitted as a fitting , respectful , or even possible supposition , that the whole church should conspire to frame decisions in matters of christian doctrine , against which express scripture or evident demonstration can be produced . this licence being admitted , who shall be judge , whether that which is pretended to be a demonstration , be really one , or no ? or whether a person do know most certainly the contrary to what the whole church hath decided ? none can judge of the thoughts of another : so that upon these grounds , whoever shall say he is certain the church hath erred , must be believed , or however cannot be found fault withall for his renouncing obedience to the universal church . what presbyterian , writing or disputing against episcopacy or other doctrines of this church , will doubt to say , that he does most certainly believe and know such doctrines to be errors ? and if he say so , who can demostrate , that he does not think so ? and if he think so , he may question , contradict , and make parties to reverse all the laws , decisions , &c. both of the english and god's church too , by the archbishop's warrant ; for he taking notice ( page 245. ) that such an objection will be made , resolves it thus , that a general council ( he means another ( general council ) must decide , whether it be a demonstration or not ; hence it will follow , 1. that when any one cries a demonstration , he cannot be reduced to obedience till another general council be called . 2. but if another general council must decide it , why hath not the last general council , which he disobeys , decided it ? or if this may not oblige him , why should the next ? but this is not yet judged to be dispensation enough ; for according to the foresaid limitations , one may be excused from assenting to decisions of general councils , about points not of necessary faith , in case they be gainsaid by men of worth , place and esteem : so that if any such persons do contradict general councils ( whether in or out of the council , he mentions not ) ignorant men may lawfully join with them , and in comparison esteem all other pastors of god's church to be of less worth , place or esteem . what a broad gate , yea how vast a breach have these doctors , with all their learning and prudence , made in the walls of god's church , to let in all manner of confusion ? can any protestant now deny sme●●ymnuus , mr. prinn , the rump parliament to have been persons of worth , place and esteem ? at least the generality of england once thought them so , and themselves challenged those titles , and whilst they were the strongest , enjoy'd them . to what miserable straits a necessity of justifying the english separation reduced such wise and learned men ? 4. in the third place , according to the same writers position , all manner of decisions made by councils , both in necessary and unnecessary doctrines , cease to be obligatory , in case something appears that may argue an unlawful proceeding in the council , out of passion , interest , want of liberty , &c. but still who shall be judges of councils proceedings ? among catholicks , when there are perhaps suspicions of some irregular proceedings , yet if the points decided be embraced by the particular catholick churches , generally speaking , they then have the force of unquestion'd catholick doctrines . but as for those , who are enemies to councils , in which their doctrines have been condemn'd , such will be sure to charge them with unlawful proceedings . for did not the arians urge that plea against the council of nice ? the nestorians against that of ephesus ? the eutychians against that of chalcedon ? 5. this clause in all probability was put in to exclude the authority of the council of trent ; against the proceedings of which therefore , very loud and very unjust clamors were made by protestants , imputing especially to the court of rome many policies and attempts either to intimidate the fathers of the council , or to induce them to favour , and enlarge the grandeurs of the pope . but who ever shall unpassionately read the history of that council , compiled by the most learned and eminent cardinal palavicino from authentick records yet extant , will be satisfied . 1. that the liberty of the bishops was only straitned by their own respective temporal princes , and not by the roman court. 2. that the pope was so far from gaining an access to his authority , that when a far greater number of the bishops would have concurr'd thereto , the pope himself forbad it , meerly because the french bishops , inconsiderable for their numbers , did joyn to oppose it . 6. but there is no necessity that catholicks should trouble themselves with making apologies for that council . 1. because all the doctrines of it , opposed by protestants , as novelties , were manifest in the general writings and practise of the western church long before that council ; and most of them in the eastern . 2. because they are now actually embraced by all catholick congregations , as declared doctrines of the church : in which case by the archbishop's own concessions , they are to be esteem'd infallibly true . 3. because the principal doctrines , censur'd in the preacher's sermon , had been expresly determin'd by former either general , or at least patriarkical councils , admitted in this kingdom : as transubstantiation , veneration of images , prayers not in a vulgar tongue , communion under one species , celibacy of priests , the universal iurisdiction of the pope , &c. 4. and lastly , because , in condemning the protestant doctrines opposite to them , the bishops of the council of trent are found , even by * padre paulo's relation ( no favourer of that council ) unanimous in their judgment ; which the reader may there see , if he please to examine their votes concerning those points . neither did , nor needed the pope , or his adherents , to use any artifice herein to gain the suffrages of a major part : and this is , in that history of his , only pretended to be done in other matters of contest among catholicks themselves . 7. therefore it would certainly be much more for the good of consciencious protestants to reflect seriously on the method of their reformations : and then let them be judges of the legality of their proceedings , and the disinteressedness of their first reformers . i speak not now of presbyterian reformations , which in all countreys have been usher'd in with tumults , rebellions , murders , rapines , dissolution of monarchies , &c. but of the english reformation only , which though free from such horrible crimes , yet how legal it was , how free from worldly and carnal interests , let their own historians be judges . 8. and first , this relation is made of it in general by dr. heylin ; in queen elizabeths time ( saith he ) before the new bishops were well setled [ i need not mind the reader here , that all her former bishops , save on , had deserted her ] and the queen , assured of the affections of her clergy , went that way to work in her reformation , which not only her two predecessors , but all the godly kings and princes in the iewish state and many of the christian emperours in the primitive times had done before her , in the well ordering of the church and people committed to their care and government by almighty god. and to that end she published her injunctions , ann. dom. 1559. a book of orders , 1561. another of advertisements , 1562. all leading unto the reformation , with the advice and consent of the metropolitan , and some other godly prelats who were then about her [ these were those newly ordained , the former bishops being ejected ] by whom they were agreed on , and subscribed unto , before they were presented to her. but when the times were better setled , and the first difficulty of her reign passed over , she left church-work to the disposing of church-men , who , by their place and calling , were most proper for it ; and they , being met in convocation , and thereto authorized as the laws required , did make and publish several books of canons , &c. thus that doctor ; the sum of which is , that the queen , finding no foundation to build upon , because all the innovations begun by her father and young brother , had been utterly demolished by her sister queen mary , and withal perceiving the main body of her clergy , as well as her bishops , except such as the caused to be made de novo , to be generally averse from her proceedings , was fain to do all the ecclesiastical work her self , assisted with some of her new bishops , without the concurrence of any synodal authority ; till , having first by her orders sufficiently purged the clergy , she saw , she could securely now do church-work by church-men . 9. but mr. fuller is more punctual in delivering the retail of these her first proceedings , which he extracted out of the authentick synodals , 1559. he tells us then , that in the beginning of her reign , the queen called both a parliament and a convocation of the clergy : which convocation unanimously persisted in a resolution not to forsake the old religion restored by queen mary , and publickly declared against such an intended reformation . particularly the body of the inferiour clergy composed certain articles of religion , which they tendred to the bishops , and the bishops in the name of the whole clergy , presented them to the lord keeper . the said articles were these five , 1. of the real substantial presence of our lord's body after consecration . 2. of the non-remaining of the substance of bread and wine . 3. of the propitiatory sacrifice in the masse . 4. of the supreme spiritual iurisdiction of the pope . 5. that the power not only of defining , but even treating and ordering of ecclesiastical matters touching doctrine and discipline pertains only to spiritual pastors , and not at all to lay persons . a little after this , during the same convocation , there came from both the vniversities a writing signed by a publick notary , by which they both signified their concurrence to the aforesaid articles , only with a little alteration of the last . 10. i have thought fit to annex here the very words of that convocation , as dr. fuller transcribed them out of the synodal book , 1559. reverendi in christo patres as domini colendissimi . qvoniam famâ public● referente ad nostram nuper notitiam pervenit ● multa religionis christianae dogmata publico & unanimi gentium christianarum consensu hactenus recepta & probata , atque ab apostolis ad nos usque concorditer per manus deducta praesertim articulos infra scriptos , in dubium vocari . hinc est , quod nos cantauriensis provinciae inferior secundarius clerus in uno ( deo sic disponente , ac sereniissimae dominae nostrae reginae , decani & capitali cant : mandato brevi parliamenti ac monitione ecclesiasticâ solitâ declaratâ id exigente ) convenientes , partium nostrarum esse existimavimus , tum nostrae , tum eorum , quorum cura nobis committitur , saluti , omnibus quibus poterimus modis prospicere . quocirca majorum nos●rorum exemplis commoti ; qui in similia saepe tempora inciderunt , fidem , quam in articulis infra scriptis veram esse credimus , & ex animo profitemur , ad dei laudem & honorem , officiisque , & aliarum nostrae curae commissarum animarum exonerationem , presentibus , duximus , publice afferendam , affirmantes , & sicut deus nos in die iudicij adiuve● , asserentes . 1. quod in sacramento altaris , virtute christi verbo suo à sacerdote de●ite prolato assistentis , praesens est realiter sub speciebus panis & vini naturale corpus christi conceptum de virgine mariâ . item naturalis ejus sanguis . 2. item . quod post consecrationem non remanet substantia panis & vini , neque ulla alia substantia , nisi substantia dei & hominis . 3. item . quod in miss● offertur verum christi corpus & verus ejusdem sanguis , sacrificium propitiatorium pro vivis & defunctis . 4. item . quod petro apostolo & ejus legitimis successoribus in sede apostolicâ tanquam christi vicario data est suprema potestas pascendi & regendi ecclesiam christi militantem , & fratres suos confirmandi . 5. item . quod authoritas tractandi & definiendi de iis quae spectant ad fidem , sacramenta , & disciplinam ecclesiasticam , hactenus semper spectavit & spectare debet tantum ad pastores ecclesiae , quos spiritus sanctus in hoc , in ecclesia dei , posuit ; & non ad laicos . quam nostram assertionem , affirmationem & fidem , nos inferior clerus praedictus vestris paternitatibus tenore praesentium exhibemus ; humiliter supplicantes , ut quia nobis non est copia hanc nostram sententiam et intentionem aliter illis , quorum in hac parte interest , notificandi , vos qui patres estis , ista superioribus ordinibus significare velitis . qua in re officium charitatis ac pietatis ( ut arbitramur ) praestabitis , & saluti gregis vestri , ut par est prospicietis , & vestras ipsi animas liberabitis . but what effect had these declarations and protestations of the whole representative clergy and universities ? all that could be got was a disputation , the orderly proceeding whereof , and conclusion , may be seen in fox and camden , a. d. 1559. neither can the salvo used by m. thorndick , who proceeds somewhat otherwise in this point , then the arch-bishop , or dr. field , be rationally admitted here . ‖ who first yields , that if the clergy of that time when the reformation began , ( he means the clergy in the beginning of queen elizabeths raign ) had been supported in that power , which by the premises [ in his book ] is challenged on behalf of the clergy , the reformation could not have been brought to pass , and grants , ‖ that secular power gave force to that which was done contrary to the rule , wherein the unity of the church consisted : but yet justifies the reformation thus , ‖ he saith , that as the power of the church ( obliging christians to their dicisions ) is a law ordained by the apostles , for the unity and edification of the church , &c. so , also there are abundance of other laws given to the church , by our lord and his apostles : and that therefore , if by injurie of the times , the practice ( of the church ) become contrary to these lawes , [ given by christ and his apostles ] ; or if those , whom the power of the church is trusted with , shall hinder the restoring of such lawes ; ( of christ and his apostles ) the soveraign power being christian , may and ought to suppress their power , ( though he grants this their power to be an ordinance of the apostles , necessary to the unity of the church ) ; that so their power may be committed to such as are willing to submit to the superior ordinance of our lord and his apostles . a thing ( saith he ) ‖ throughly proved , both by the right of secular powers in advancing christianity with penalties , and in establishing the exercise of it , and in particular , by all the examples of the pious kings of gods people , reducing the law into practice , and suppressing the contrary thereof . thus mr. thorndicke takes this way of freeing the english reformation from schism , upon the just reforming power of the secular prince against all , or most of his clergy , when he judgeth them to teach or practise against the doctrine of our lord and his apostles . but all this while , he never so much as asks the question , what if the prince be mistaken in these doctrines which he calls of our lord and his apostles ; or be mistaken in what the ancient church , and primitive times have delivered for such ? and what if all the clergy which he opposeth be in the right ? nor this , what if our lord hath committed this to the clergy , and successors of the apostles , to judg and decide for ever ( when any doubt or dispute ariseth ) what are the true lawes of our lord and his apostles ? or , what ancient tradition hath delivered to posterity for such ? but he discourseth so , as if the christian prince were herein infallible , when yet he supposeth , that all his clergy may be herein deceived : as if queen elizabeth understood the scriptures , and ancient tradition , aright in these lawes , whilst her bishops and convocation erred in both , till she had new-moulded them . is not this a strange way to justifie a church-reformation ? for the kings of iudah , it shall be spoken to by and by , ‖ and as to what he urgeth concerning the power of kings , it is by no means denied , that these have supremacy proper to them , to command obedience from all their subjects , and that as well from a clergy-man , as any other , to the lawes of christ and his apostles with the civil sword , and with temporal penalties ( a supremacy to which the church layes no claim ) . but when any doubt or controversie ariseth , what , or which these lawes be , ( as there was in the beginning of queen elizabeths raign in many points ) secular princes as well as others , are sons of the church , and are to learn this from the expositions of their spiritual fathers , the church-men . i mean that body of them , which hath the just and superior authority of deciding such controversies . and let this suffice to shew the legality of the first proceedings of the reformation , in opposition to the unanimous votes of the whole clergy , or of those therein , who clearly had the decisive power of ecclesiastical controversies either concerning the sense of scriptures or truth of ancient tradition . 12. then comparing this reformation with the council of trent , in regard of worldly or carnal interests , let any indifferent man judge between them . was not the liberty obtained by king henry the eighth , to bring into his bed , a new handsom wife , instead of his former vertuous queen , a very carnal interest ? was not his invading all the possessions and treasure of monasteries a great secular interest ? was not the dividing the said lands , among the nobility and gentry at very easie rates , a very great interest ? in king edwards daies , was not the protectors seizing on the remainder of church-spoils a great interest ? was not the freeing of clergy-men , from a necessity of saying daily , and almost howerly , long ecclesia●●ical offices , from lying a lone without bedfellows , &c. matters of great , both carnal and secular interests ? was not the exempting of all , both laity and ecclesiasticks from the duty of confessing their sins , and submitting themselves to penitential satisfactions ; from rigorous fasts out of conscience and religion , and other austerities , a matter of considerable interest , to flesh and corrupt nature ? can any such interests as these be proved to have been operative in the council of trent ? how far all these interests of the world and flesh , had influence on the first godly reformers , we may rationally suspect , but god only knows , and themselves long before this time feel ; god is not mocked . 13. by what hath been hitherto said appears but even too clearly , how that fundamental rule of all government and subordination was utterly neglected in england , at the time that the pretended reformation was contrived and executed . here is a new and thorow moulding of a church , both a doctrines and discipline , called a reformation , wherein all the synodical acts of this church , since christianity entred among us , are as to any obliging power by their authority reversed : wherein all the decisions of patriarchical councils , yea of oecumenical synods are call'd into examination ; all their laws , so far as seemed meet reform'd , the whole regard that england had to all other catholick churches , as a member of the whole , is utterly broken by one national church : nay not so much , but by one luxurious king , by one child , and by one woman , even when the whole body of the clergy protested against it . and yet after all this , if doctor pierce may be believed , thus to reform was to write after the coppy which had been set to the reformers in his text , by the blessed reformer of all the world ; which was so to reform as not to innovate , and to accommodate their religion to what they found in the beginning : in the mean time accusing the church of rome ( as he expresseth it , but indeed the whole catholick church , as he must , and as others grant ) of not only horrible corruptions in point of practise , but hideous errors in matters of faith too , & such as trench upon foundations . 14. but the preacher must not expect his confident asseveration without proof can seduce the judgement of any considering man to believe him against evidence and experience . nothing is more plain then that the catholick church , by observing the foresaid fundamental rule , is and will be eternally free from danger , either of causal or formal schism . and as plain it is , that no churches can be separate from the catholick communion but by transgressing that rule : for if diocesan churches and synods would submit to provincial ; and provincial to national , and these to patriarchical , and all to oecumenical , how could unity be dissolved ? but on the contrary , if subordinate councils shall take on them to reverse the acts and decisions of superior ones , especially of oecumenical ; how can schisms possibly be avoided ? and with what shew of reason can any particular churches thus breaking ecclesiastical orders , charge other churches with schisms , because they will not break them too ? chap. xxiii . an answer to the doctor 's proofs alledged to justifie the lawfulness of the english separation : as , 1. from the independent authority of our kings . 2. from the examples of justinian and other emperors . 3. from the practises of fourteen of our kings . 4. from the examples of the kings of juda. in what sense new articles of faith are made by the church in the council of trent . 1. it remains now that i answer the examples produced by the preacher to justifie their separation to be no schism ; he sayes , that by the concessions of the most learned popish writers , particular nations had still a power to purge themselves from their corruptions , as well in the church as in the state , without leave had from the see of rome : this is willingly granted . but do those writers concede such a purgation as their first reformers administred to this kingdom ? not only without , but against the consent of the see of rome , nor only of rome , but of the whole catholick church ? a purgation from the whole faith and discipline , in any thing they judged fit to be rectified , that by the authority of councils and laws of princes had been received and in force ever since the nation was christian : and by which they declared themselves members of the whole catholick church ? on the contrary , from the beginning of christianity he will not be able to produce one example , either of states or princes , except profess'd hereticks , ( such as the emperors constantius , valens , zeno , &c. ) that ever made any laws to repeal any doctrines declared or disciplines established in the church . the purgations conceded and executed by princes truly catholick was to extirpate all innovations in doctrine , all transgressions of discipline that swerved from the decrees and ordinations of the church , and no other . 2. surely the doctor doth not think christian princes , as such , cease to be sons of the church , they must be saved as well as their subjects , and therefore are not dispensed from that speech of our lord , qui vos audit , me audit . they are not pastors , but sheep . yet catholick religion obliges us to acknowledge , that their civil power extends it self to all manner of causes , though purely ecclesiastical ; so as to make use of the civil sword in constraining even their ecclesiastical subjects to perform that duty which either the moral and divine law ( according to the churches exposition thereof ) or the laws of the church require . such a power , yea a supremacy in such a power we acknowledge to be in princes . but withal we cannot find either in reason or antiquity any ground to apply to princes that commission which our saviour only gave to the apostles and their successors [ sicut misit me pater , &c. ] as my father sent me , so send i you : receive the holy ghost , &c. teach all nations , &c. no promise hath been made to princes , that god's spirit shall lead them into all truth , any other way , then whilst they follow the direction of their ecclestical pastors , to whom only that promise was made . 3. nay , that very argument by which he would assert his cause , is a demonstration against him . he sayes , and that very truly , our kings are as much as any in the world , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , they hold their regal authority immediately from god , without any dependence on any other authority on earth . the like must be said of other absolute princes too . now this independency of princes demonstrates , that the regulation of their power in ecclesiastical matters , must of necessity be made according to an authority and iurisdiction purely spiritual common to them all , which is in the church . for otherwise , being independent and absolute , they may perhaps be able to preserve a kind of unity in their respective kingdoms , by forcing from their subjects an obedience to a religion and church-policy framed by themselves , contrary to the law of the catholick church : but how shall the whole church be preserved in unity by this means ? other princes are independent as well as they ; and therefore may frame a religion which they may call reformation , as well as they : so that if there be not a spiritual director and ecclesiastical laws common to them all , and submitted to by all , what will become of vnity ? which of these independents will make himself a dependent on another ? shall there be patriarchicall , or general councils of kings meet together ? who shall summon them ? in such royal synods there must be order : which of them shall challenge a primacy , even of order ? doctor pierce may see what consequences naturally and unavoidably flow from his positions . 4. touching the code and novels of iustinian , and the practice of charlemain ( for the emperor zenos 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we leave to himself ) he may please to cast a serious eye on their laws , and will find they were all regulated by the law of the present church in their times : the churches faith and her canons for discipline they reduced into imperial laws , to the end their subjects might be more obedient to the church , more averse from innovations in doctrine , and irregularity in manners . and doth all this suit with the case of english protestants ? can he justifie king henry the eighths oath of supremacy and head-ship of the church : or king edward the sixths reformatio● legum ecclesiasticarum , or q. eliz. new articles and canons , by these laws of the code or capitulare ? let the emperor iustinian pronounce his sentence in this matter [ sancimus vicem legum obtinere , &c ] we ordain and command that the holy ecclesiastical rules declared and established by holy councils shall obtain the force of laws : for their doctrines we receive as the holy scriptures themselves , and their rules we observe as lawes . add again , to shew that the laws , enacted by him , touching ecclesiastical matters , were intended not as acts of an absolute ecclesiastical supremacy , but as consequences of the churches authority , he saies , our lawes disdain not to follow the holy and divine rules ( of the church ) . these were indeed lawes of reformation , fit for glorious princes , devout sons of the church , to make but surely very incommodious patterns for the preachers purpose . 5. what the late emperours , fardinand the first , and maximilian the second did , neither his sermon , nor margin tell us , but onely that something was done , which he , it seems , thought for his advantage ; i 'le tell him what it was : their reformers in germany were grown very powerful ; yet not so , but that they made a shew of hearkening to some composition . those worthy emperors , for peace sake , made several consultations with learned and moderate catholicks , ( some indeed too moderate , as cassander , &c. ) how the church doctrines and ordinances might be qualified . hereupon divers expedients were proposed , treatises written , &c. by which the emperors were in hope debates might be ended , but how ? by betraying the present churches faith ? by renouncing the popes iurisdiction , or consent to a composition ? far otherwise ; for when they saw no agreement would please the lutheran electors and their divines , but such as was derogating from the authority of the supream pastor , and prejudicial to the lawes of the church , they surceased all motions of reconciliation ; rather chusing to expose themselves to all the dangers that might come from their arms and rebellion . 6. touching the many kings of england , as he sayes , in popish times , whose actions in his opinion , shewed , that the work of reformation , belonged especially to them in their kingdom : his margin , indeed , quotes the names of fourteen of our kings since the conquest , as if he would have the world believe , the pure reformed religion were almost six hundred years old : but what reformations were made by any of them , either in religion or church-discipline , neither i , nor himself can shew , except by the last king henry the eighth , who was indeed a reformer of the new fashion . 't is true , the former kings had frequent quarrels with the court of rome , touching investitures , procuring of bulls for determining causes belonging to the kings courts , usurping a disposal of bishopricks , and other benefices , &c. but what is all this to religion ? such debates as these , he may see at this day , between the roman court , and the kings of france , spain , &c. in all which , commonly the pope is but little a gainer ; yet , notwithstanding all these , he will not sure deny , but that the kings of france and spain ; and 't is as certain , that all those former kings of england , except one , were perfect roman catholicks ; not any of them ever did believe , that their supremacy could allow them to alter the religion of their fore-fathers : even king henry the eighth , for all his headship , never pretended so far . of this i dare accept , as judge , even sir edward coke himself , and balsamon likewise , though a malicious schismatick , therefore the fitter to be quoted by him ; yet all he sayes is , that the emperor has an inspection over the churches , that he can limit or extend the iurisdiction of metropolitans , erect new ones , &c. which , whether by the ancient lawes of the church , he can do or no , is little for the preachers purpose : i am sure he is not able to prove it , or if he could , it is a reformation which will not serve his turn . 7. his last examples of reformations made by princes , is that of the kings of iuda , in which indeed religion it self was reformed . but withal , the doctor may do well to take notice . 1. that those kings are no where said to have reformed all the priests , or the high priest , or not to have found him as orthodox as themselves . 2. they are not said to have reformed the people against the priests . 3. or without the priests . 4. yea in several places we read , they were by the priests assisted in their reformation . and therefore bishop andrews , who was willing to make as much advantage of this example against the roman church , as might be , says only , that those kings did reform citra or ante , declarationem ecclesiae , but he saies not , contra . and , to make good his citra or ante , hath only the strength of the weakest of all arguments , a negative , thus , there is recorded no such declaration of the church in scripture , ergo there was none . the infirmity of which argument is much more visible , if applied to such a short history as that of the kings and chronicles , containing a relation of so many hundred years , and chiefly of the actions of kings , not of the clergy . 8. it cannot indeed be denied , but that in such publick changes , the power of kings is more operative and illustrious then of the priests , because their civil sword awes more than the others spiritual ▪ and therefore no wonder , if their part in such reformations is more spoken of , especially in so very short a story . but certainly , according to gods institution , the priests lips are to preserve knowledge , and it is from their mouths that ( kings ) are to learn gods law , and what they are to reform , because they are the angels of our lord. now , for reformations , or other ecclesiastical ordinances made by such kings as david , solomon , &c. who , besides a regal authority , were prophets likewise , immediately inspired and so employed by god , i suppose the doctor will not draw such into consequence , to justify the actions of a king henry the eighth , the young child his son , or youngest daughter ; no prophets surely . 9. to these examples alleged by doctor pierce , but very insufficient to justify the english reformation , i will in the last place take notice briefly of one great motive , which , as he sayes , set on work the english reformers ( of happy memory ) ; which was their observing that in the council of trent , the roman partizans , were not afraid to make new articles of faith , commanded to be embraced under pain of damnation , as it were in contempt of the apostles denunciation , gal. 1. 8. 10. but to omit his contradictions , charging us with hideous errors in faith , which yet he dare not say are fundamental , lest he ruine his own church : to omit his uncivil language to the bishops of that council , persons of too honourable a quality , to be called , by a little doctor , contemners of the apostles denunciation , conspirators liable to a curse : to omit his commending the first english reformers , our kings , &c. that they consulted not with fleth and blood , then which , what could be said more unluckily to himself ? did not our first reformer consult sometimes with flesh and blood ? was henry the eighth so wholly spiritual ? do not your self confess , that sacriledge and rebellion help'd reformation ? to omit his petty quibble , that the church of rome is but the younger sister to that of brittain : directly contrary , not only to many of his brother divines , but to the head of his church , king iames , who , in a publick speech to his parliament , says , i acknowledge the church of rome to be our mother church . — to omit all these , and more , i shall desire the doctor to take notice , that neither what the church hath done in the council is any novelty , nor is it a novelty that the churches adversaries should make such an objection : concerning which , the reader may please to review what has been said before , chap. 20. sect. 9. 10. & 11. 11. protestants must impute this to their first reformers , that the church hath been forced to make such ( as they call them ) new articles of faith. for what would they have advised the council of trent to do , when the churches ancient doctrines and traditionary practises were question'd and condemned by innovators ? as yet such doctrines , &c. having never formerly been opposed , except by inconsiderable hereticks ; such as iovinian , vigilantius , &c. whose errors ( before any council could take notice of them , soon after they appeared , withered away again ) were visible only in the consent and practise of catholicks . but now it was necessary to declare conciliariter , that they were unjustly question'd , either of error or novelty . must there be no decisions in god's church after the four first general councils ? for fear of new articles , must liberty be given to new heresies ? old articles , such , as the church had formerly occasion from time to time to mention in her creeds and canons , will not serve the turn explicitly to condemn them , therefore new ones must be excogitated says the council . ‖ new ones , that is , old ones further explained : or , old practises newly declared to be traditions . 12. but surely these which are mentioned by the doctor , and related to in his margin , are no new articles ; most of them had been expressly declared in former councils ; and all were as old at least as christianity in england . for even st. gregory , who sent st. austin hither to preach the gospel , is accused by learned protestants of all , or most of these very novelties which the preacher objects . doctor humphrey ‖ accuseth him and st. austin the monk — quod invexerunt in angliam purgatorium , &c. that they brought into england purgatory ; oblation of the salutary host , and prayers , for the dead ; relicks ; transubstantiation . to which ‖ osiander adds , — that the same gregory vehemently urged celibacy of the clergy ; invocation and worship of saints ; nay , that the idolatrous veneration of images also was by him approved , excused , defended . to which carrion , in his relation of the state of the church in those dayes , adds , that , when he tragically exclaim'd , that he abhorred the appellation of vniversal bishop ; yet at the same time he sufficiently declared his vehement desire of the thing which this title signifies , in his assuming to himself such authority over other churches . here then are seven of the doctor 's novelties , confessed by protestants themselves , to have been the doctrines of st. gregory , which the english here received with their christianity ( which also sufficiently appears , to those who are yet unsatisfied , out of bede's ecclesiastical history of england , written about an hundred years after st. gregory : of whom the same o●iander also relates , that he was involved in all the romish errors concerning those articles wherein ( saith he ) we dissent at this day from the pope : and for the two others of the doctor 's points , 1. publick prayers in an unknown tongue , and , 2. infallibility ; himself confesseth the first of these to have been in gregories time ; for thus he , * the publick prayers of the romanists have been a very long time in an unknown tongue , even as long as from the time of pope gregory the great . and the second he must grant to have been pretended to before gregory , in that the preacher allows the proceedings of the four first general councils ; for these required several points not before determined to be believed by all christians under pain of anathema , and also inserted them into the body of the christian creeds . which thing the doctor sometimes thinks unreasonable , that any fallible authority should assume to it self . for surely upon this ground it is , that he condemns the council of trent for presuming to make new articles of faith , though they have put none such in our creeds . 13. by which it appears , that this sermon , and all the severity practis'd against us in consequence of it , might as justly have been preach'd and executed against our first apostles , st. gregory and st. augustin the monk , as against us . and if against them , then against the vniversal church both eastern and western ; since it is evident that in st. gregory's time they were in perfect unity both for doctrine and discipline ; and consequently , if such pretended new articles can justifie the english separation from the present church , the same separation ought to have been made from the universal church above a thousand years since . i might go higher , but this is even too too much . that man surely must have a prodigious courage , who dares venture his soul and eternity rather upon scripture interpreted by an act of parliament , or the 39. articles , than by the authority and consent of the vniversal church for so many ages . i will conclude this so important argument of schism by a closer application , which may afford more light to discover on which side the guilt lyes . and this shall be done by making some concessions , and proposing some other considerations , &c. chap. xxiv . of causal and formal schism or separation ; and the vanity of their distinctions . considerations proposed for a clear examination on which side the guilt of schism lyes . the manifest innocency of the roman church . 1. first , as to the preacher's so commended distinction of causal and formal schism , it is borrowed from the late archbishop : the former member whereof only he applies to the roman catholick church , the later to no body : he must give me leave to propose to his consideration a saying or two of st. augustin , thus writing to the donatists , si possit , quod fieri non potest , &c. if any could have , which really he cannot possibly , a just cause for which he should separate his communion from the communion of the whole world , how do you know , &c. a●d again in the same epistle , there is the church where first that ( separation ) was made which you after perfected , if there could be any just cause for you to separate from the communion of all nations . for we are certainly assured that no man can justly separate himself from the communion of all nations , because not any of us seeks the church in his own iustice or holiness ( as you donatists do ) but in the divine scriptures , where he sees the church really become , as she was promised to be , spread through all nations , a city on a hill , &c. hence it is , that the same saint , though he wrote several books against the special doctrines of the donatists , yet whensoever he treats of their schism , he never meddles with any of their opinions , but absolutely proves their separation unlawful from the texts of scripture , and promises of christ , which are absolute and unconditional : so that the alledging causes to justifie separation , for which there can be no just one , is vain and fruitless ; and this way of arguing is far more forcible against english protestants , than it was against the donatists , because all their sober writers acknowledge the church of christ was , and alwayes will be unerrable in fundamentals ; and this as she is a guide : and further , that the roman is either this church , or at least a true member of it . 2. but secondly , whatever becomes of this distinction , his concession is , that really a formal schism there is between us : nay more , that the protestants made the actual departure , and indeed they must put out their eyes , who see it not . the visible communion between the now english church , and all other in being before it beyond the seas , is evidently changed and broken . the same publick service of god , which their first reformers found in god's church all the world over , they refuse to joyn in , for fear of incurring sin : most of the ecclesiastical laws , every where formerly in force , they have abrogated , and without the consent of any other churches have made new : they were formerly members of a patriarchical church ▪ ( which they esteem'd the only orthodox vniversal church ) to the government of this common body they acknowledged themselves subject : and a denial of subjection to the common governors of this body , and especially the supreme pastor , they judged to be a formal act of schism : lastly , the common doctrines of the church they formerly embraced as of divine authority , traditionary , only ancient and primitive : now they called apostatical novelties . any of those changes conclude a schism on one side or other , but all of them more then demonstrate it . a schism then there is , therefore one of the parties is guilty ( not of causing , but ) of being schismaticks , properly , formally , schismaticks . now would it not be hard for the doctor to speak his conscience , and declare once more at court , which of us two are properly schismaticks ? it could not indeed be expected he should answer as a young maid did to my old lady falkland , when she asked , if she were a catholick ? no madam , ( said she with a low curtesy ) if it please your ladyship , i thank god i am a scismatick ; but withal , his tongue would not readily pronounce roman catholicks to be schismaticks from the english , reformed church . 3. that which is opposed to schism , is catholick communion . we shew , saith saint . augustine , by our communion , that we have the catholick church . therefore in discourse of schism , one while to talk of innovations of doctrine , or of making a secession from a church , twelve hundred years since , &c. and perhaps , charging us with causal schism : and on the other side , to acknowledg that the actual departure was indeed theirs , yet they are not scismaticks , they left the errors of catholicks , rather then them : is indeed to act the very part of the donatists , who , as saint augustine sayes , affirmed that the word catholick was not derived from the universality of nations , but from the plenitude of sacraments , that is , from the integrity of doctrine . and in another place , writing to a donatist , thou thinkest ( says he ) that thou hast spoken acutely , when thou interpretest the name catholick , not of vniversal communion , but of observation of all precepts , and divine mysteries . and hence it was that the donatists call'd their bishops , bishops of catholick verity , not of catholick vnity , as st. augustine says in the same epistle . 4. i desire to know , whether before their reformation , our church was schismatical , or it began afterwards so to be ? if it was so before , where was that church from which we separated ? no where on earth sure : and by consequence either a separation may be from no body , or the whole church failed , the gates of hell ( contrary to our saviours promise ) prevailed against it . again , if our church became schismatical , after their deserting us , because she would not immitate them , or because she would communicate with those who held such doctrines ; then it will follow ( since the church that was then , did in this , nothing vary from it's predecessors in a former age ) that a church remaining the same without any alteration at all , may be the only true church of christ to day , and the synagogue of satan to morrow . these are riddles unconceivable . but , to demonstrate that , even in protestants opinion , we are not schismaticks , there needs only this proof , that generally protestants , yea even hugenots , acknowledge , that salvation may be had in our church ; which no man , charging us with schism , can say , if he knows the nature of schism ; how grievous and unpardonable a crime it is , that cuts off from the mystical body of christ. 5. on the other side , that the crime of schism is truly and only to be charged on them ( besides the visible marks of leaving communion , changing government , laws , &c. ) may be demonstrated thus . there is no particular true church , which is a member of the catholick , but thereby hath a power validly to excommunicate all those that desert her communion , transgress her laws , &c. and whoever are so excommunicated by her , are esteem'd excommunicated by all other catholick churches . so that , if another bishop or church , after information of this , shall receive them into their communion , that bishop , &c. ipso facto incurs excommunicaion himself . which excommunication , being according to the laws of the church , is valid and ratified in heaven . now suppose an english bishop should excommunicate one of his subjects for a total renouncing episcopal government and ordination , and the person so excommunicated should adjoyn himself to a congregation of presbyters in scotland , france , holland , &c. they would no doubt receive him : and being so received , he is , even in the bishop's own judgement , in as undoubted ( though not so straight ) a way to heaven , as he was before : because the bishop himself acknowledges presbyterian congregations to be true reformed churches of god : so that by their excommunication he is not cut off from christ , but from preferments only . the late act of vniformity doth far more validly excommunicate non-conformists , then all their bishops courts . chap. xxv . the doctor 's desire of reconcilement , and the conditions of it . the necessary preparations thereto . of the court , and church of rome . 1. after all the doctors triumphant invectives ▪ against the catholick church , he yet concludes his sermon in a less tempe●tuous stile ▪ he sayes , he hath the charity to wish for reconcilement : that they departed with higher degrees of indignation from the insolent court , then church of rome . that court which proudly trod upon crowns , and made decrees with a non-obstante to apostolical constitutions , &c. that they were called protestants , because they protested not so much against the church , as against the cruel edict made at worms , &c. but yet when they wish a reconcilement , they do not mean by compliance with any the least of our defilements , but by our harmony with them in being clean . 2. if doctor pierce hath indeed the charity , and if he doth any more then with his tongue say , they wish for reconcilement ; they , that do so , will not want a reward from god for so much charity : and i doubt not there are a world of english protestants ( with him ) who heartily wish the same . and they that have charity , will easily believe we wish so too . so that both parties being so far on the way to agreement , as to wish it : the next step must be to endeavour to procure it . our frequent endeavours , they know , have been to little purpose ; we have oft in vain protested , that our doctrines , practises , &c. have been misunderstood : we still persist in the same protestation : and perceive by this very sermon that they are still misunderstood : and whilst they are so , that condition of reconcilement which he makes is not unreasonable , that they will have no reconcilement by a compliance with our defilements . therefore to take away this misunderstanding , let them obtain that for us , which we yet could never be able to do , a permission to be heard speak for our selves . 3. we pass for traitors , but cannot obtain to be informed wherein our treason ●ies , nor what we must do to prove our selves no traitors . if the ackowledgement of his majesties supremacy in as high a degree as they themselves will allow , with exclusion of all manner of temporal authority in any other , be no treason : if the exposing our lives as willingly for monarchy as they can do , be no treason : if there be not any proof of faithfnl allegiance which is refused to be submitted to by us , what suspicion can they have that we are traitors ? but our present a la mode treason is , that our priests receive their ordination from rome : and do not they so to ? i am sure we cannot anger them worse , then to question or doubt whether the church of england hath received her mission , orders and iurisdiction from the roman church . 4. for our doctrines : i am perswaded , if only this poor answer fall into the hands of any ingenuous protestants , who will seriously consider the several points so tragically declam'd against by the preacher , they will think even the church of england little beholding to him for his sermon , and truth much less . but since small effect can be expected from such 〈◊〉 treatise as this , bound up to his blundering method ; therefore , unless it be their interest , or as they may think , their safety , that our innocence should be stifled and oppress'd , if they have the charity i●deed to wish for a reconcilement , let them procure for us a peaceable authorized conference , in which the only design may be by consent to enquire and set down clearly upon what terms a reconcilement may follow , and without which it must not , nor ought to be expected . let us understand one anothers churches ; let us know one anothers essential doctrines : if there be any mistakes , any misinterpretations on either side , let them be cleared : but till this be done , and it can only be effected by them , they must pardon us , if according to the temper of calamitous , unjustly oppressed persons , we suspect that this last seemingly moderate passage of his sermon , is in effect the most severe and bitter against us , as declared to be persons with whom all reconcilement is unlawful . 5. certain i am this zealous preacher is far from the prudent temper of king iames , whose authority ( being his supreme governor in all spiritual things as well as temporal ) should surely have more then an ordinary influence over him ; that learned king in his before mentioned speech , hath these remarkable words , i could wish from my heart it would please god to make me one of the members of such a general christian union in religion , as , laying wilfulness aside on both hands , we might meet in the midst , which is the center and perfection of all things ; for if they ( of the roman church ) would leave and be ashamed of such new and gross corruptions of theirs , as themselves cannot maintain , nor deny to be worthy of reformation ; i would f●r my own part be content to meet them in the mid-way , so that all novelties might be renounced on either side . see the condescence of this great king , and compare it with the stiff humor of this little doctor — he 'l not comply with the least of our defilements ; not he , softly , good sir , do you not as ill , when you comply with the lutherans , who surely are not without some little stains ? do you not . as ill , when you comply with the hugenots , who are not at so perfect a harmony with you in your being clean ? look soberly into your own rashness : you began the separation ( that hath bred so many wars , and so much licenciousness both in faith and manners ) upon points which your selves confess are not fundamental ; and now you solemnly protest to continue it without complying in the least difference between us . go now , and close your sermon with a few soft words — your arms are open to embrace , &c. your hearts are wide open to pray to god to bind up the breaches , &c. of his divided , defiled , disgraced spouse — and when all 's done , you 'l not stir an inch towards the peace you so gloriously talk of . if this be hypocrisie , remember , doctor , the woes that attend it , if not , express your self so sincerely hereafter that we may not suspect it . for my part of all the faults in a sermon , to that of dissembling i here declare a vitinian hatred , as you learnedly call it . much more moderate were vives and cassander , whom you commend for complaining of some abuses in the church ( among other authors which you there cite , jumbling protestants and catholicks confusedly together ) for after all their zeal they dyed quietly in her bosom , and did not , like you , tear in pieces the seamless coat of our saviour , and reject all terms of peace , unless every pretence of yours be satisfied to a tittle . i remember too a dogged word you gave us , not far from the beginning of your sermon ; where after you had reckoned up socinians , antinomians , ranters , solifidians , millenaries , reprobratarians , &c. ( a fine peal to make a pulpit ring ) to all which you yield more antiquity then any will allow your reformation , you pass them over with the gentler names of heresie and usurpation , but when you come to the pontificians , you immediately grow high and rage , and resemble them to the mahometans , &c. — blind and impertinent passion ! do you not see abroad a civil and learned portion of christians in communion with the bishop of rome , and are they no better than mahometans ? do you not see , in your own country , and at court too , persons so qualified , that you should blush at your own unmannerliness to compare them to mahometans ? 6. if their chief quarrel be against the court of rome for proudly treading upon crowns , and making decrees with a non-obstante to , &c. this might perhaps have been more seasonable five or six hundred years since . but surely they know catholick princes are wiser now , and the court of rome too . this needs not be the least hindrance to a reconcilement : on the contrary by a reconcilement this church and kingdom would receive from the court of rome , only what france , spain , &c. find extremely advantageous , both to the honour and safety of their churches and states . and as for decrees with a non-obstante , he mistakes the terms of apostolick constitutions , by which is intended constitutions not made by the apostles , but former popes . and touching the decree of the council of constance in his margin , let me ask him a question or two : do not protestants in baptism use sprinkling instead of dipping , non obstante that our saviour and his apostles instituted it otherwise ? do they not think themselves obliged to communicate fasting , non-obstante , that our saviour instituted the sacrament after supper ? do they not without scruple eat black-puddings , non-obstante the apostles gave a command to the contrary ? all this they do , because they think these things not essential or unalterable , but left to the prudence of their particular church : let them permit therefore the same liberty to a general council . and here give me leave to insert some few citations concerning the protestant-acknowledgments of the authority of councils . mr. ridley sayes , councils indeed represent the vniversal church , and being so gathered together in the name of christ , they have the promise of the gift and guiding of the spirit into all truth . doctor bilson plainly confesses , the presence and assistance of the holy ghost for direction of general councils into all truth ; and after fairly sayes , the fathers in all ages , as well before as since the great council of nice , have approved and prastis'd this of councils as the surest means to decide doubts . — hooker professes , the will of god is to have us do whatever the sentence of judicial and final decision shall determin , yea , though it seem utterly to swerve from what is right in our opinion . — their authority ( general councils ) is immediately deriv'd and delegated from christ , sayes potter . — and if doctor peirce agree with these his brethren , i might say fathers , in this point , i shall not easily fall out with him about it , but rather endeavour a further approach by offering this fair proposal ; i will not require of him to hold that the fathers meet in council to make question of the matters of faith , for those they were taught from their childhood ; but to consult about their adversaries proofs , and what arguments should be alleadged against them ; to consult how to express the catholick doctrine in such words as might best instruct the people , and prevent hereticks from abusing them ; hence it was st. athanasius said , we meet here , not because we wanted a faith , i. e. were incertain what to hold , but to confound those who go about to contradict the truth . which rule , if councils observe , i think the doctor would scarce refuse to obey them ; and our only difference in this point , i hope , is , he thinks they do not observe this rule , and i think they do . chap. xxvi . the preacher's boasting . catholicks cannot justly be obliged to shew from antiquity evidences of their doctrines . conditions necessary to be observed by the doctor , in case he reply . of the name protestant . 1. thus i have gone through , and examin'd ( except to those who love to be contentious ) sufficiently , all the pretended novelties imputed by dr. pierce to the roman catholick church ; i have likewise brought to the test all the allegations made by him , either to excuse the english churches separation from the roman catholick , or at least to perswade us not to call it schism : and it seems to me , i have demonstrated him unsuccessful in both . nay more , ( which is a great misery , if he would consider it with that seriousness , which eternity deserves ) i think i have prov'd that the fearful crime of schism will lye heavie upon his church , though he had shew'd all the points by him mention'd , to be novelties . and having done this , i must say with st. augustin , vtinam verba ista infuderim , & non effuderim . but considering the present temper of this age , i doubt , i shall have reason to fear , according to the same holy father's expression , lest , when i beg them to afford their ears , they should make ready their teeth . 2. however i hope the doctor will no more be believed with any reason to complain ( as he doth in his sermon ) of one remarkable infirmity in the popish writers , — they ever complain we have left their church , but never shew that iota as to which we have left the word of god , or the apostles , or the yet uncorrupted and primitive church , or the four first general councils . truly , this speech of his seems to me so vain , and rash , and shameless a boast , that i cannot but blush for him , when i read it , and tremble for him when i see truth so little consider'd by a preacher , sustaining god's person , as he pretended . 3. but perhaps i understand not his phrase of [ sh●wing that iota as to which they have left , &c. ] if he mean we have not demonstrated their deserting antiquity , or , that we believe not , even since we have seen their answers , that our demonstrations are unanswerable ; there are extant whole libraries of our controvertists , sufficient to overwhelm him . particularly , before he say so again , let him enquire out and consider a book , written by simon vogorius , counseller to the french king , entituled , an assertion of the catholick faith out of the four first oecumenical councils , and other received synods within that time . or even , let him review what is quoted against him here ‖ concerning one of his own points , celibacy of the clergy , out of the four first general , and several other , as ancient , provincial councils . before all which councils there is found an injunction of it as high as calixtus his dayes about a. d. 220. which also doctor peirce mentions . doth not this prohibition of the priests from marriage amount to the magnitude of an iota with him ? how comes it then to be one of his grievances in this sermon , and that under no milder a phrase than the doctrine of devils ? or will not such antiquity pass for primitive , and antiquity antique enough ( to use his words ) ? unless he will shrink up primitive antiquity from the 6th age to the 4th , from the 4th to the 3d. ( where few writings being extant , less of the churches doctrines and customs can be shewn in them ) or from the 3d to the 1st age and the apostles times ( as the presbyterians , in the plea of antiquity , treat the prelatists . ) for on this manner even the most learned of the protestant writers , when they are straitned with proofs , are wont to retire . so bishop iewel long ago made a bold challenge to be tryed by antiquity for the first 600 years . but after many hot encounters between the controvertists , and after antiquity better discover'd to the later pens on the protestant party than to the first , a. bp. lawd , more cautious , contracts the protestants challenge somewhat narrower to the fathers of the first 400 years , or thereabouts , the protestants ( saith he ‖ ) offer to be tryed by all the ancient councils and fathers of the church within the first 400 years , and somewhat further . and , since the a. bp. doctor hammond makes his plea of antiquity yet shorter , viz. for the fathers of the first 300 years ; for the particular doctrines ( saith he ‖ ) wherein we are affirmed by the romanists to depart from the vnity of the faith , we make no doubt to approve our selves to any that will judge of the apostolical doctrines and traditions by the scriptures , and consent of the first 300 years , or the four general councils . — and again , we profess ( saith he ‖ ) to believe so much , and not to be convinced by all the reasons , and authorities , and proofs from scriptures , or the first christian writers , those of the first 300 years , or the four general councils . where by submission to the four first general councils , he means only to the bare decisions of these councils in matters of faith concerning our saviour and the holy ghost , not obliging himself also to the authority of those fathers , who flourished in the time of these four councils , and sate in them . for , though the last of these councils was held in the middle of the 5th age , yet he claims a tryal by the fathers only to the end of the 3d age. again , by this submission to the writers of the three first ages only , he bars most of the chief fathers , and all those that are more large and voluminous , from bearing any witness against protestants , and leaves scarse half a score authors of note now extant , and several , writing only some short treatises or epistles , whereby they are content to try all the doctrine and discipline of antiquity . 4. but these were timorous souls that would fain be thought to deal civilly with antiquity ; let us hear two or three bolder spirits , that speak plain and freely : what sayes doctor willet ? let not your majesty be deceived by the popish arguments of supposed antiquity , as joshua was with the old and mouldy bread of the gibeonites ; and the reason is given , for anti-christ began to raign in the apostles dayes , in st. pauls dayes . what says acontius ? some of us are come to that , that they will fill up their writings with the authority of the fathers , which i would to god they had performed with prosperous success , as they hopefully attempted it , &c. i onely think this custome is most dangerous , and altogether to be eschewed . what sayes the witty whitacre ? the popish religion is a patcht coverlet of the fathers errors sewn together . and again , to believe by the testimony of the church ( not excepting any age ) is the plain heresie of the papists . to conclude ( for i might quote all day long upon this subject ) what sayes the patriark of protestancy , luther , there never was any one pure council , but either added something to the faith or substracted . and now , what shall we say our selves in this confused variety ? against some of our adversaries , we must cite antiquity , or else we do nothing ; against others , if we cite all the antiquity that ever was baptized , we do nothing . god deliver them from their cross and incertain wandrings , and me from the weariness of following them in their wild chase . 5. but , if the doctor means by [ shewing that iota , as to which , &c. ] that we have not so shewed it , as to stop their mouths , or to force them to confess and repent of their fault , then there can be no shewing any thing by any one party to another , as long as the dissention lasts between them . in this sence they have never shewed one iota to the presbyterians , anabaptists , quakers , &c who ( after all their books , canons , acts of vniformity , &c. which those sects call antichristian , tyrannical popery , as the protestants did ours ) still persist in separation from them . then neither the apostles , antient fathers , or councils ever shewed one iota to antient pagans or heretics : because , for all their shewing , others remained pagans and heretics afterward . and yet , even in this particular , though a very unreasonable one ▪ we cath●lics can confidently affirm , that we have defeated this bravado of the preacher . for evident truth on our side has extorted from the mouths and pens of a world of the most learned among the reformed writers , a confession both in general and in every particular controversie , that antiquity declares it self for the roman church against them . thousands of such proofs may be read in the protestants apology , the triple cord , &c. books writen on purpose to reckon up such confessions . this is truly , if well considered , an advantage strange and extraordinary ▪ for i believe never did any of the antie●t h●reti●s so far justifie the catholic church . no such confessions of theirs are recorded by the antie●t fathers : which shews that , above all former examples , the heretics and schismatics of this last age are most properly [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] condemned by their own consciences . 6. but withall the doctor must take notice of this one thing , that it does not belong to us catholics to be obliged to shew that iota , in which they ( who have set up a new and separated church from us but the other day ) have left the word of god or primitive antiquity , or the four first general councils ; a● it belongs to them , who have thus divided themselves , not only to shew , but to demonstrate first most clearly , that there is such a discession from those scriptures , fathers , and councils , by that former church ( which they deserted ) not in an iota but in some grand principle of our faith , which admitted no longer safety to them in her communion ; because the roman catholic church is in possession : and , by our adversaries own confession , has been unquestionably so for above a thousand years , of all or most of her present doctrins for which they have relinquished her . particularly the pope has enjoy'd an authority and supremacy of jurisdiction a longer time , than any succession of princes in the world can pretend to ; a jurisdiction acknowledged as of divine right , and as such submitted to by all our ancestors , not only as englishmen , but as members of the whole western patriarcha● , yea of the vniversal church , and this as far as any records can be produced . he is now , after so many ages , question'd and violently deposed from this authority by one national church , nay by one single woman and her counsel ( the universality of her clergy , protesting against her proceedings ) and much more against her destroying a religion from the beginning establish'd among us , and which had never been question'd here in former times but by a wiclef , or a sir iohn oldcastle , &c. manifest heretics and traytors . now it is against all rules of law , iustice and reason , that such as are possessores bonae fidei , should be obliged to produce their evidences : this belongs only to the plaintiffs ▪ and no evidences produced by them against such a possession can be of any force , except such as are manifest demonstrations of an vsurpation , yea such an vsurpation as cannot either be exercised , or submitted to without sin . 7. the doctor is likewise to consider , tha● if , ex super abundanti , we should yield so far as out of antient records of councils or fathers to alledge any proofs to enervate their claim to them , and justifie our possession : such proofs of ours , though considered in themselves , were only probable , yet in effect would have the force of demonstrations against english protestants : but on th' other side , unlesse they can produce from scripture or antiquity evident demonstrations against us , they are not so much as probabilities : all this by their own confession . for , as has been shew'd , they lay it for a ground , and acknowledge the catholic church ( of which according to their own doctrin the roman is at least a member ) to be in all fundamental points infallible : and that in all other points , now in debate , which are not fundamental , it would be unlawful for particular churches to professe any dissent from her , without an evident demonstration , that she has actually and certainly erred in them ; yea moreover , that she will admit none of the dissenters into her communion , except such as ( though against their consciences and knowledge ) will subscribe to her errors ; errors so heynous , as to deserve and justifie a separation . 8. these things premis'd , my last care must be to provide , that , in case a reply be intended to this treatise , it may not be such an one as may abuse the world . the preacher must consider it is not such another blundering sermon that will now serve his turn to give satisfaction , so much as to any protestant , who has a conscience guided by the light of reason , or thinks schism not to be a sleight p●ecadillo . therefore that he may know , what conditions are necessary to render an answer not altogether impertinent and insupportable ▪ i here declare , that , in case he shall undertake a confutation of what is here alledged by me to disprove the charge of novelti●● by him laid on the roman catholic church , and the excusing of schism in his own , he will be a betrayer of his own soul , and the souls of 〈◊〉 those that rely on him , unless he observe the conditions following . 9. the first is , since if protestants have in truth an evident demonstration that the roman doctrins , for which they separate , are indeed such pernicious errors and novelties , we readily grant they are not obliged to subscribe them ; and it being supposed by the archbishop , &c. that , without such a certainty . it would have been unlawfull for protestants to question or censure such former doctrins of the church ; the doctor is bound , and ●here adjure him to declare expresly . as in the presence of him , who is . supreme head of the church , and will revenge severely all calumnious persecutions of it , that he is demonstratively certain , that in all these points , charged by him on the church of later times as novelties and errors introduced since the four first councils , she is manifestly guilty : and that nothing appears in this , or any other catholic book of his acquaintance , which deserves to be esteem'd so much as a probable proof to the contrary . for my part i here protest on the other side , that i find not any one concluding allegation in his sermon , nor believe there can any be produced ; which can warrant him to make such a declaration . 10. the second condition is , that in like manner he professe he can or hath demonstratively proved by scripture or primitive antiquity , the main grounds , upon which they pretend to justifie their separation to be no schism , to wit , these . 1. that the universal church , ●epresented in a lawful general council may in points of doctrin not fundamental so mislead the church by errors , that a particular church , &c. discovering such errors , may be obliged to separate externally . 2. that a particular chr●stian or a congregation diocesan may lawfully reverse decisions formerly made by a nationa● synod , and assented to by it ; and that a nationa● council may do the like in regard of a patriarchical , or any of them , in regard of an oecumenical formerly accepted and admitted . if these ass●ri●ous he innovations , as in our perswasion they are , it is clear they destroy all possible unity : if they be not , let some demonstrative proofs and examples be produced out of antriquity , that a reversing of such order and subordination has been practised and approved in the catholic church . 3. that a particular church , &c. in opposition to the vniversal , can judg what doctrines are fundamental or necessary to all persons , 〈◊〉 communities , &c. and what not : and that a catalogue of such doctrines be given by the respondent , or demonstrative reasons alledged why such an one is not necessary . 11. thirdly , if he will deny the church of england has separated externally from the present vniversal church , but only from the roman ; then , to make this good , he is obliged to name what other visible member of the vniversal church they continue in communion with , in whose public service they will joyn or can be admitted , and to whose synods they ever have , or can repair . and , since at the time of their first separation , they were only in communion with the roman-catholic church , and the members of it , be must shew how , when , and where they entered into any other new communion . lastly , since the english church , by renouncing not only several doctrines , but several councils acknowledged for general , and actually submitted to both by the eastern and western churches , hath thereby separated from both these , he must find out some other pretended members of the catholic church divided from both these , ( that is , some that are not manifestly heretical , ) with whom the english church communicates . 12. a fourth condition is , that he must either declare other calvinistical reformed churches , which manifestly have no succession of lawflly ordained ministers , enabled validly to celebrate and administer sacraments , to consecrate , confirm , preach god's word , &c. to be no heretical or schismatical congregations : or if they be , he must demonstrate how the english church can acquit her self from schism , since her bishops and divines have authoritatively repaired to their * synods , and a general permission is given to any protestant writers to acknowledg them true , reformed , and sufficiently orthodox congregations . 13. the last shall be , that he abstain from imputing to the catholic church the opinions or sayings of particular writers . the church her self having sufficiently declared her doctrines in her councils , especially that of trent . if he will combate against her , there he has a fair and open field , and charity requires that he affix to her decisions the most moderate and best qualified sense : otherwise he will declare himself as one , who is sorry his mother should not be ill reputed . now in exchange , i for my part am extreamly willing to proceed in the same manner with the english church . i would sain charge her with nothing but her own declared doctrines and decisions . but truly i know not where to find them , except only in the little primmer and catechism for children . for the 39. articles , being almost all negatives , may as well be reputed the doctrines of iewish , or turkish congregations , since these also deny the sacrifice of the masse , purgatory , infallibility of councils , &c. other reformed churches have published reasonably large professions of their faith , they have declared their own positive sense in almost all points of christian belief , as the huguenots in france , &c. the lutherans in germany , &c : only the english church seems to have made a secret of her faith ; upon what motive i am unwilling to guess . 14. these conditions in themselves so reasonable , and even according to protestants grounds also , so necessary , if the replyer shall refuse to perform , he will , in the judgment of all discerning readers , be himself the answerer and con●uter of his own reply ; and withall , will shew it is not truth or peace he aims at , but the satisfying his own , or others interests , passions and revenge against those who least deserve it . all subterfuges , all involved intricacies in answering , all discourses which are not open , candid , and sincere , will be confessions of guilt : he may perhaps hide the weaknesse of his cause from credulous women , trades-men , or possibly the more unlearned part of our gentry ; but to all considering readers , his art of hiding will be his most manifest discovery . aristotle saies , the sepi● is the wisest of all fishes , because she conceals her self by casting forth round about her a black humour , which hinders the sight of her . but on the contrary , iulius caesar scaliger affirms she is of all fishes the most imprudent , quia cum se putat latere , prodit seipso latib●lo ; for the fishermen are sure to find her under her inky humour . 15. and now having finished our answer to the substance wherein we differ , let us conclude with the name that distinguishes us : he puts us in mind of the reason why the lutherans , and from them other reformerd took the name , protestants , for protesting against the bloody edict of worms , spires , &c. we find little ground why the reformers in england should borrow that title . against what armes or armies did they ever protest ? what edicts were made against them ? we catholics might rather assume such a title , if it were of any special honor , having seen ( and felt too ) edicts of another and far more bloody nature made against us : nay ( thanks to such sermons ) we see at this day edicts , severe enough , published , and worse preparing , not against subjects in arms and actual rebellion , as the lutherans were against the empire , but against such , as the law-givers , and law-perswaders know mean no harm ; against such as would be both most watchful & assisting to establish the peace of the kingdom : edicts , to draw all the remainder of blood out of our vein● , which have been almost emptied in our kings and countries cause ; though our hope is still in the mercy of our gracious sovereign , and the prudent moderation of those about him . 16. yet sanguinary sermons are greater persecutions than sanguinary laws ; for laws may and somtimes are qualifi'd by the equity of judges , and in particular those against roman catholics have often been allay'd by the gracious clemency of our kings . but the uncharitable sermons , that call for blood , inspire fury into mens hearts , make compassion esteem'd unlawful , and the most savage cruelty the best sacrifices of religion . the truth is , pulpits have been the sources whence so much blood has flow'd in this kingdom , which sources , if they had been open'd by such as smectymn●us , whose vocation is rebellion against the princes , and barbarous inhumanity to all that are not of their fiction , sustinuissemus utique — and so we shall do still with the help of grace , by whose hands soever almighty god presents us this cup. quod voluit factum est , & quod fecit bonum est . sit nomen domini benedictum . amen . psal. 108. 3. & 73. 2. pro co ●t me d●ligerent , detrahebant mihi : ego autem or aham , memento congregationis tue , quam poss●disti ab initio . finis . the contents . chap. i. of doctor pierce's sermon in general . sect. 1 , 2. what was probably the design of it . 3 , 4. catholicks persecuted , though their best friends . 6 , 7. chap. ii. page 8. eleven novelties charged on catholics . 2. schism imputed is them . 3. why necesssary the sermon should be refuted . 4 , 5. the answerers protestation of sincerity . 6 , 7. chap. iii. page 13. b. jewels challenge imitated by the doctor . 1 , 5. primitive reformers acknowledgment . 2 , 3 , 4. the doctors notion of beginning , 6. questions proposed touching that notion . 8. 9 , 10 , 11. chap. iv. page 29. the sum of the doctors discourse against the popes supremacy enervated by himself . 1. 2 , 3. the churches doctrine therein . 4. the text , mark 10. 42. cleared . 5 , 6. chap. v. page 36. the doctor obliged to acknowledge submission due to the popes authority , as exercised during the four general councils . 1 , 2. of the title of universal bishop . 3 , 4 , 5. not generally admitted at this day . 6 , 7. chap. vi. page 44. the absolute necessity of a supreme pastor in the church . 1 , 2 , 3. supremacy of iurisdiction exercised by boniface iii. his predecessors . 4 , 5 , 6 , 7. the 28. canon of chalcedon illegal . 8. of the second canon of the council of constantinople . sect. 9 , 10. chap. vii . page 54. the popes supremacy confirmed by a law of the emperor valentinian . 1 , 2. decrees of popes , their ancient force . 3 , 4. the popes supreme iurisdiction confirmed by the eastern church . 5 ▪ 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. appeals to the see apostolick decreed at sardiea ; british bishops present . 11 , 12. of the first council at arles . 13 , 14. sixth canon of the nicene council explained . 15. 16 , 17. chap. viii . page 67. proofs of the popes supreme jurisdiction , before first council of n●ce . 2 , 3 , 5. how all apostles and all bishops equ●l , and how subordinate . 6 , 7. st. peter had more then a primacy of order . 8. 9 , 10. of st. pauls resisting st. peter . 11 , 12. objections answered . 13 , 15. the popes supremacy not dangerous to states . on the contrary , &c. 18 , 20 , 22. protestants writing in favour of it . 25 , 26. chap. ix . page 89. the churches infallibility . 2 , 3 , 4. the necessity thereof . 8 , 9. the grounds whereon she claims it . 10 , 12 , 14 , 15. — objections answered . 16 , 18. chap. x. page 109. prayer for the dead . 3 , 4 , 5. it s apostolick antiquity . 6 , 7 , 9. purgatory necessarily supposed in it . 11 , 12. objections answered . chap. xi . page 121. transubstanti●●ion . 2 , 3 , 4 , 6 , 8. iustified by authority of the fathers . 10. objections answered sect. 12 , 14 , 1● ▪ chap xii page 137. communion under one species . 2. ●onfirm●d by the practice of the primitive church in private communions . 3 , 4 , 5 , 6. no cause of separation . 7 , 8. chap. xiii page 143. the sacrifice of the mas● . 1. asserted universally by antiquity . 2 , 3 , 4. the true doctrine concerning it explain'd . 5 ▪ 6 , 7. chap. xiv . page 151. veneration of images . 1. the churches approved practice of it most suitable to reason . 2 — 13. chap. xv. page 163. the churches prudence in restraining the too free use of scripture from the unlearned . 2. 4 , 5. our late miseries justly ascribed to a defect in such prudence . 6. of prayer not in a vulgar tongue . 7 , 8. the causes and grounds thereof . 9. 10. that prac●ise not contrary to st. paul. 11 , 12 , 13. chap. xvi . page 178. invocation of saint● . 2 ▪ 3 , 4 , 5 , 6. proved out of antiquity . 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. concessions , deductions , and objections answered . ●1 . adult . chap. xvii . page 201. celibacy of priests . 2 , 3 , 4. vows of chastity . 5 , 6. the doctrine and practice of the church in both . 9 , 10. objections answered . 10 , 13 , 14 , 15 , chap. xviii . page 219. dovorce , and the several kindes of it . 2. 3 — 7. the practice of the roman church manifestly mistaken by the pr●●cher . 8 to 17. chap. xix . page 225. of schism . sect. 1. the unpardonableness of that o●ime acknowledg●d by antiquity . 2 , 4 , 6. no cause or pretence can excuse it . 7 , 8. chap. xx. page 233. the preacher vainly endeav●rs to excuse his church from schism . 3 , 4 , 5. and chapter 21. sect. 15 , 16. of the subordination of church-governours and synods . 13 the unappealable authority of general councils acknowledged by antiquity . 8. of the decisions of later councils . 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. chap. xxi . page 249. the fundamental rule of church government . 1 , 2 limitations of the authority of general councils . 5 , 6. their grounds made by a. b. lawd , dr. field , &c. 3 , 4. of points fundamental and non — 7 , 8 , 12 , protestants allow not so much authority to general councils as god commanded to be given the sa●hedrim . 13 , 14. of the pretended independence of the english church from the example of cyprus . 17. chap. xxii . page 265. limitations of the churches authority , by a. b. lawd , &c. examin'd . 1 , 2 , 3 , 4. objections against the proceedings in the council of trent answered . 5 , 6. manifest illegality in q. eliz. reformation . 7. 8 , 9 , 10 , 11● secular and carnal ends in it . 12 , 13. chap. xxiii . page 28● . the doct●rs proofs alledged 〈◊〉 justifie the english separation , answered . 1 , 2. 1. from the independent authority of our kings . 3. 2. from the example of justinian and other emper●rs . 4 , 5. 3. from the practice of fourteen of our kings . 6. 4. from the example of the kings of judah . 7 , 8. in what sense new article● of faith are made by the church in the council of trent . 10. 11 , 12 , 13. chap. xxiv . page 291. of causal and for●al schism : and the vanity of their distinctions . 1 , 2. considerations for a clear examination , on which side the guilt of schism lies . 3 , 4. the manifest innocency of the roman church . 5. chap. xxv . page 298. the doctors desire of reconcilement , and the conditions of it . 1 , 2 , 3. the necessary preparations to it . 4 , 5. of the court and church of rome . 6. chap. xxvi . page 307. the preachers boasting . 1 , 2 , 3. catholi●ks cannot justly be obliged to shew from antiquity evidences of their doctrines . 6 , 7. conditions necessary to be observed by the doctor , in case he reply . 8 , 9 , 10 , 12 , 13 , 14. of the name protestant . 15 , 16. finis . errata page 11. line 15. read wllful 〈◊〉 ▪ p. 15. 〈…〉 notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a34974-e120 prov. 16. 7. sanderson's hist. pag. 349. out of the records of the house of commons , 1640. notes for div a34974-e2310 eccles. 9. notes for div a34974-e3820 melanct. in 1 cor. 3. pet. mart. 1. devotis . p. 477. id. ib. p. 490. id. ib. p. 476. beza epist. t●eol . 1. fulk in rejoynd . to bristow . page . 4. andre , duditius in epist. theol. beza . 1. ibid. common-prayer-book . memento congregationis tuae domi●e quam p●ssedis●i ab initio . stat 1 eliz. quest. 1. quest. 2. quest. 3. quest. 4. notes for div a34974-e7290 epist. dedica● ▪ serm. pag. 10. page 16. page 17. page 18. ibid. page 19. ibid. page 20. page 21. sess. 25. concil . floren. page 17. mark. 10. 45. hebr. 5. 5. 6. 1 pet. 5. notes for div a34974-e8650 a. d. 606. pelag. 2 epist. card. palav . hist. del . conc. de trento . lib. 19. c. 15 , 16 , &c. lib. 20. c. 3. 9 , &c. lib. 21. c. 4 , &c. notes for div a34974-e10680 ius divinum ministr . evang. in app●●d . prep . 5. a. d. 590. greg. m. lib. 2. all indict . 11. ep. 3. idem . lib. 7. jud . 2. epist. 64. id. lib. 7. jud . 2 : epist. 64. id. l. 2. indict . 2. ep. 63. id. l. 2. ind. 10. ep. 37. id. l. 5. indict . 14. ep. 24. a. d. 577. pelag. 2. ep. ● . a. d. 494. a. d. 484. felix 2. in ep. ad episc. dard. a. d. 440. a. d. 451. leo m. in ep. 53. idem . ep. 54. idem ep. 55. serm. pag. 19. liberat in brev. cap. 13. socrat. hist. l. 2. c. 5. theodor. anag . in syng . can. leo. ep. 55. ad anat. gelas p. tom. de anathem . vinc. a. d. 381. conc. constantinop . 1. can. 3. serm. pag. 18 ▪ concil . const. 1. can. 2. notes for div a34974-e13480 novel . theodos. tit. 24. a. d. 424. ibid. ibid. leo in decret . t. 5. hilar. p. in ep. ●d ep. provinc . vien . a. d. 385. to 418. zosim in decret . c. 1. 2 innocent . in decret . c. 21. & tit . 45 , 46 , 47. conc. tolet. 4. conc. turon . 11. can. 20. basil. ep. 52. a. d. 343. socrat. hist. eccles. lib. ● . cap. 5. apud athanas . apol. 2. sozom. hist. eccl. lib. 3. c 9. novel . theod. tit . 24. sozom. hist. eccl. 〈◊〉 . 3. c. 2. theod. hist. eccl. lib. 2. c. 4. cor● . eph. p. 2. 〈◊〉 . 5 in relat●d calest . epist. ad theodos . in p●eamb . conc. chalced. a. d. 345. concil . sardic . can . 3 , 4. athan. apol. ● . hist. l. 3. ● . 3. greg. 9 ep . 61. a. d. 314. conc. arlat . can . 1. serm. pag. 18. conc. nicen. 1. can . 6. de concord . sacerd. & imperii , ● . 7. n. 6. * erasm pr●●f . in hilar. ‖ scal●g . in chron. euseb. baron spond . annal. 325. peron . rep . to k. iam. c. 33. basil. epist. 10. august . l. 1. cont . julian . c. 2. hieron . epist. 77. justin. novel . 123. theod. l. 5. c. 23. socrat. l. 2. c. 29. notes for div a34974-e16870 a. d. 311. aug epist. 162. a. d. 258. euseb. hist. eccles. lib. 7. c. 4. 6. cypr. epist. 75 id. epist. 67. id. epist. 68. a. d. 19● . euseb. hist. eccl. serm. page . 18. hierom. cont . jovin . lib. 2. cypr. de unit . ecclesiae . ibid. ibid. optat. cont . parm. lib. 2. chrysost. in act. ap. cap. 1. hom . 3. id. in . cap. 21. jo●n . hom . 87 ▪ serm. page 17. august . lib. 2. de bapt. cont . donat. ibid. august . ep. 92. serm. pag. 20. cypr. epist. 76. epist. ded. ibid. contrary to th● statute 37 hen. 8. c. 17. — ● , ed. 6. c. ● . — & reform . leg. ecclesiast . c. de offici ▪ & iurisdictione , p. 190. fulk against bristows motives , p. ●48 . wh●tg . defence , cap. 59. ibid. p. 173. centur. e●ist . th●ol . epist. 74. covel . exam. page 106 , 107. ibid. notes for div a34974-e22470 serm. pag. 8. ib. page 22. deut. 7 , 8 , 9. ainsworth in deut. 17. 9. serm. page 22. math. 28. 20. math. 18. 20. math. 16. 18 math. 18. 17. geg . m. l. 1. epist. 24. act. conc. nicen. dr. hamond of 〈◊〉 . sect . ● . n 1. sect . n. 15. sect . 13. n. 2. sect . 14. n. 6. bishop bram●a●l reply to bish●p chalced prefa●e and vindic. ca. 2. p. 9. artic. 19. serm. p. 22. ibid. hieron . euseb. hist. eccl. l. 3. hierom. aug. l. 2. de civ . d. c. 7. aug ibid. hieron . l. 4. aug. l. 1. de pec . merit . cap. 20. innocent in epist. aug. ●b . c. 19. 21 , 22. & lib. 2. cap. 28. &c. bed. ad 1 cor. c. 10. gratian consecr . dist . 2. cap. qui passus est . dr. fern in certain consid. in preface . notes for div a34974-e26230 serm. p. 8. concil . trid. sess. 25. ibid. can. missae . memento . 〈◊〉 commun . dion . ar. de eccles. hierarchia . c. ult . ibid. tert. de mon. cap. 10. id. de coron . mil. cap. 3. ibid. cap. 4. cypr. ep. 66. euse. de vit . const. l. 4. c. 71. epiph. 3. hae●●● . ibid. chrysost. in ep. ad philip. c. 1. hom . 3. id. hom . in 1 cor. c. 15. v. 46. forb . de pur●● . c. 3. §. 27. spal . l. 5. cap. 8. p. 9. aug. conf. l. 9. c. 11. aug. ser. 32. de verb. apost . id. enchirid. c. 110. epiph. l. 3. haer . 75. aug. de cur . pro mort . c. 5. notes for div a34974-e28100 serm. p. 9. ibid. p. 23 , 24. profess . fid. pii 4. calvin in ● cor. cap. 11. 24. casaub. ●p . ad . card. per. 1 cor. 11. 29. blondel . l●turg . s. basil. cyril . hier. catech. myst. 5. chrys. in . 1 cor. 10. hom . 24. opta● . lib. 6. cy●il . al. ep. ad calosyr . amb● . de spis . lib. 3. cap. 12. aug. in psal. 98. 5. id. epist. 120. luke 22. 14 , 18. lbid . 10. 19 , 20. matth. 26. 29. 〈◊〉 serm. pag. 14. serm. pag. 25. greg. nyss. orat . catech. c. 37. notes for div a34974-e31420 serm. pag. 9. ibid. pag. 25. tertull. lib. 2. ad uxo . cypr. l. de lapsis . ambr. orat . 1. in obitu frat . aug. lib. 2. lit . petil. c. 23. euseb. lib. 5. & lib. 7. beda in mart. ad 15. august . niseph . hist. lib. 18. cap. 6. ambr. de ils qui myster . c. 9. con●yl . eph. in ep●st . ad nestor . august . in psal. 33. cyril . alex. lib. 12. in ioan. cap. 32. conc. t●id . ses● . 22. in fin . notes for div a34974-e32960 serm. pag. 13. fulk . con●ut . of purg. page 362 , &c. ascham . apol. pro c●na dom. ignat. ep. ad . smirn. cent . 2. cap. 4. iren. l. 4. c. 32. cypr. epist. ad cyril . hier. on . ti● . cap. 1. chrys. 21. hom . aug. lib. 20. de civ . d. cap. 10. chrysost. in eph. cap. 1. hom . 3. id. l. 6. de sacerdot . notes for div a34974-e34730 answer to mr. bagsh . p. 70 , &c. 1 chron. 29. 20. conc. trid. sess. 25. notes for div a34974-e36990 serm. pag. 26. see inj●nctions a. d. 1536 1538. ( fox . p. 1000. ) set forth by cromwel . stat. 34 , 35. hen. 8. c. 1. serm. p. 9. ibid. p. 27. de doctr. christ. l 2. c. 12 , 13. exposit . psal. 123. exposit. incho●ta epist. ad romanos . conc. trid. ses● . 2● . cap. 8. bed hist. l. 1. c 1. hist. boem . cap. 13. notes for div a34974-e39520 serm. p. 9. conc. trid. se●s . 25. ●nkes . 6. 19. colos. 4. 3. 2 〈◊〉 3. 1. chrysost. hom . 23. in genes . id. ●om . 1. in 1 thes. aug. l. de ●ur . pro mort . cap. 26. spalat . de rep. eccl. l. 3. c. 6. voss. disp. hist. 2. thes. ● . gen. 18. 17. rev. 8. 3. — ibid. 5. 8. greg. nyss. or de s. theod , theodo . l. 8. de mart. aug. l. 22. de civ . dei. cap. 8. &c. de civ . dei. l. 22. c. 8. rivet . crit. sacr. l. 4. c. 21. basil. orat. 40. mart. chrys. homil. 66. ad pop . antioch . & hom. 26. in 2 corinth . ruffin . hist. eccl. l. 2. c. 23. ambr. de vid. hilar. in psal. 129. nazianz. orat. de 8. athan. basil. o●●t . de 40. mart. nysien . orat. de s. theodoro mart. chem. exam . conc. trid. p. 3. de invocat . s. s. vossius disp. 2 thes. 1. act ii. conc. chalced. serm. pag. ● . aug de civ . d. lib. 22. c. 10. conc. trid. sess. 22. cap. 3. aug. de cir. d. l. 8. c. 37. & lib. 20. cont . faust. m. c. 21. | resp. ad apolog . c. 1. page 46. 3 conc. carth. cap. 23. ord. missae . aust. cont . faust. l. 20. c 21. de civ . dei. lib. 22. cap. 8. de invocatione sanctotum . c. 4. n. 2. page 5. republ. eccl. l. 7. c. 12 , n. 25. exam. concil . trid. 3. p. 197. notes for div a34974-e43450 serm. pag. 27. ib. page 9. 1 tim. 5. 11 , 12. aug. in ps. 95. id. de bon . vid c. 8. id. de sanct. virg. c. 33 , 34. id. de ●●ult . conjug . l. 1. c. 24 , 2● . id. epist. 70. epiph. hier . 43 , & 61. hieron . l. 1. cont. iovin . id. in ep. ad fu●ia● . fulg. ep. 1. c. 6. conc. carth●g . 4. c. 104. aug. in . haeres . 82. 1 cor. 7. 34. obj. sol. aug. in psal. 131. conc. trid , sess. 24. can. chemnit . exam . part . 3. p. 41. p. mart. de vot . pag ▪ 490. id. ib. p. 524. danaeus con●r . bellarm. part ▪ 1. part . a●●cra . haeres . 47. aug. con . 〈◊〉 . l. 30. c. 5. conc. faust. man ▪ lib. 30. aug. cont. faust. man. l. 30. c 4. cartw in ●d . reply , part . 1. p. 4●● . bellarm. l. 1. 〈◊〉 cleric . c●p . 18. ibid. conc. carthag . can. 2. conc. african . cap. 37. ambr. l. 1. de offic. c. 1. ult . hieron . lib. cont . vigilant . id. epist. ad p●m●chius . aug. l. a. de adult . conjug . cap. 20. concil . elber . can● 33. orig. hom . 23● in num . e●seb . de dem . evang. lib. 1. cap. 8. eph. haer. 59. & in fine operi● . s. ambr. offic. l. 1. cap. 50. zach. 7. 3. 1 cor. 7. 5. notes for div a34974-e46800 serm. pag. 19. deut. 24● pag. 29. 1 cor. 7. notes for div a34974-e47930 aug. de symb. ad carech . l. 4. c. 10. euseb. hist. eccl. lib. 6. pacian ad sympr . epist. 2. iren. l. 4. c. 62. chrysost. ad eph. hom . 11. cypr. de unit . eccles. notes for div a34974-e49350 clem. constit. l. 6. cap. 14. cypr. l. de . unit . eccles. athan. ep. ad epict. epiph. haer. 77. aug. epist. 162. id . lib. 4. de trin. id , lib. 1. de bapt. cont . donat , l. 1. c. 7. ibid. l. 2. c. 4. ‖ conclus . of the synod ad marcianum imperat. ‖ hist. 1. lib. 11. c. luke 19. notes for div a34974-e52150 aug. de bapt. cont . donat. l. 2. c. 3. archb. lawd , conser . sect. 37. numb . 3. id. ib. sect . 21. n. 5. ibid. ibid. id. sect . 33. a. 14. id. sect. 21. n. 5. id. sect. 37. ● . 5. 6. dr. field of the church cap. 5. p. 666. lawd sect. 33. con . 5. n. 1. deut. 17. gen. 49. 10. matth. 23. dr. bramhall . notes for div a34974-e55090 * see the english edition of that history , concerning transubstantiation and adoration of the eucharist , pag. 324 , & 326. — concerning the masse , that it is a propitiatory sacrifice , p. 544 , 545 , & 738. — concerning the lawfulness & sufficiency of communicating in one kind , pag. 324 , 325 , 519. — concerning purgatory ; the lawfulness of invocation of saints , and of veneration of images , p. 799 , 803. — concerning the lawfulness of not using some part of the divine service in a vulgar language , p. 573 , 574. — concerning priests not marrying ; and the universal capacity of the gift of chastity ; and the lawfulness of vowing it , p. 783 , 747 , and likevvise , p. 678 , 679. ] reform . justified , pag. 37. fuller hist. l. 9. p. 54. ‖ right of church in a christian s●ate p. 247. 248. &c. ‖ ibid. p. 251. ‖ pag. 273 , &c. ‖ pag. 275. ‖ chap. 23. n. 7. pag. 35. pag. 12. notes for div a34974-e57740 pag. 33. serm. pag. 33. pag. 34. justin. in authent . de eccles . tit. & privileg . id. in authent . ut cler. ap . prop. ep. 10. conven . serm. pag. 34. ibid. cokes 5. report . balsamon . see 2 chron. cap. 29. 4. 12. 16. ibid. cap. 34. to●t . to●ti . p. 365. mal. 2. 7. serm. pag. 13. pag. 12. pag. 8. pag. 13. pag. 35. stow. p. 840. anno. 1603. ‖ conc. chalcedon . ad imperat . marcian . ‖ in jesuitism . part. 2. ‖ epist. hist. eccles. cent 6. * serm. pag. 27. notes for div a34974-e61000 aug. epist. 43. pag. 32. august . collat carth. c. 3. serm. pag. 32. aug. brevic. collat. lib. 3. epist. 48. notes for div a34974-e62240 pag : 36. stow. chron. pag. 84. anno 1603. pag. 36. pag. 36. pag. 7 , 8. pag. 35. act. mon. pag. 1288. perpet . gov. p. 372 , 373. pag. 374. pref. to eccl. pol. pag. 28. dr. potter . pag. 30. athan. in ep. de syn. notes for div a34974-e63610 pag. 14. ‖ cha. 17. sect. 10. pag. 9. ‖ sect. 28. p. 217 ‖ of schism , c. 8. sect . 7. ‖ ibid. c. 9. sect . 7. willets survey of common-prayer . p. 18. strang. li. 6. pag. 296. contr. dur. lib. 6. p. 423. idem . lib. 1. de script p. 39. luth. in act. apost . ca. 15. see cap. 23. sect. 13. * a. d. 1618. at dort. page 36. an historical vindication of the church of england in point of schism as it stands separated from the roman, and was reformed i. elizabeth. twysden, roger, sir, 1597-1672. 1663 approx. 525 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 107 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a64064) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 55565) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 901:50) an historical vindication of the church of england in point of schism as it stands separated from the roman, and was reformed i. elizabeth. twysden, roger, sir, 1597-1672. [10], 199, [1] p. printed for samuel speed ..., london : 1663. reproduction of original in huntington library. "to the reader" signed: roger twysden. table of contents: p. [10] errata: p. [1] at end. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng church of england -history. church of england -doctrines. reformation -england -early works to 1800. 2003-08 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-09 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-10 tonya howe sampled and proofread 2003-10 tonya howe text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-12 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an historical vindication of the church of england in point of schism , as it stands separated from the roman , and was reformed 1 : elizabeth . deuteronomy 32. 7. remember the days of old , consider the years of many generations : ask thy father , and he will shew thee ; thy elders , and they will tell thee . jeremiah 6. 16. ask for the old paths , where is the good way , and walk therein , and ye shall finde rest for your souls . london : printed for samuel speed , at the rain-bow in fleetstreet , near the inner temple-gate . 1663. to the reader . i know how easily men are drawn to believe , their own observations and expressions may prove as welcome to others , as they are pleasing to themselves . and though few books live longer then the authors who send them to the presse , and fewer avoid an opinion they might have been as well spared as come abroad ; yet neither the hazard their makers run , nor the little gain they reap , can hinder those have a genius that way , from suffering others to be as well masters and censurers of their thoughts as themselves . this being then the venture every writer exposes himself unto , the reader may not a little marvell how i have been brought to hazard my self on the same seas i have seen so many shipwrackt in . i shall desire him to adde this to what is already in the first chapter , as my apology . reading some times in baronius , a that all things were well done in the catholick church had venerable antiquity for their warrant , and that the roman church did not prescribe any thing as b an holy tenet , but such onely as delivered by the apostles , preserved by the fathers , were by our ancestors transmitted from them to us ; i cannot deny to have thought ( for certainly truth is more ancient then error ) this being made good , and that she did commend them to us , in no other degree of necessity then those former ages had done , but she had much more reason on her side then i had formerly conceived her to have : but in examining the assertions , it seemed to me not onely otherwise , but that learned cardinall not to have ever been in this consonant to himself , c confessing the catholick church not alwayes , & in all things , to follow the interpretations of the most holy fathers . on the other side , it seemed to me somewhat hard to affirm the papacy had incroached on the english , and neither instance when , where , nor how . hereupon , as i perused our ancient laws , and histories , i began to observe all changes in matters ecclesiasticall reported by them ; in which i had sometimes speech with that learned gentleman i mention in the first chapter , whom i ever found a person of great candor , integrity , and a true englishman . i noted likewise how the reformation of religion was begun with us , how cautiously our ancestors proceeded , not to invade the rights of any , but to conserve their own . many years after , i know not by what fate , there was put into my hands ( as a piece not capable of answer , in relation as well to the fact as reason it carried ) without at all my seeking after it , or hearing of it , a treatise of the schisme of england , carrying the name of one philip scot , but , as told me , composed by a person of greater eminency , dedicated to both the universities , and printed permissu superiorum ; truly , in my judgment , neither illiteratly nor immodestly writ : but in reading of it , i found sundry particulars , some perhaps onely intimated , others plainly set down , i could no way assent unto ; as that clement the vij . did exercise no other auctority in the church then gregory the great had done , that the religion brought hither by augustine varyed not from that was before the reformation , that the english made the separation from the church of rome , that in doing so we departed from the church catholick . i was not ignorant it might be found in the writings of some protestants , as if we departed from rome ; which i conceive is to be understood in respect of the tenets we separate from holding articles of faith , not of the manner how it was made . having gone through the book , i began to look over my former notes , and putting them for my own satisfaction in order , found them swell farther then i expected ; vrceum institui , exit amphora : and when they were placed together , i shewed them to some very good friends , to whose earnest perswasions ( being such as might dispose of me and mine , ) i have in the end been forced to yield , making thee partaker of that i never intended should have past farther then their eyes . yet in obeying them i shall desire to be rightly understood ; that as i do not in this take upon me the disputing the truth of any controversiall tenet , in difference between us and the church of rome , so i meddle not with any thing after pius quintus came to the papacy ; who first by private practises , and then open excommunication of her majesty , declared himself an enemy , & in open hostility with this state , which therefore might have greater reason to prevent his endeavours , by some more sharp laws against such as were here of his inclination , then had been seen formerly : with which i meddle not . thus the reader hath the truth , both how i came to compose , and how to print this . if he find any thing in it like him , he must thank the importunity of others ; if to misdoubt , i give him in the margin what hath lead me to that i affirm ; if to dislike , his losse will not be great either in time or cost : and perhaps it may incite him to do better in the same argument , and shew me my errours , which ( proceeding from a mind hath not other intent then the discovery of truth ) no man shall be gladder to see , and readier to acknowledge then from my house in east-peckham the 22. may mdclvii . roger twysden . a table of the chapters . chap. i. an historicall vindication of the church of england in point of schism : and how it came to be entred upon . fol. 1 chap. ii. of the britans . fol. 7 chap. iii. of the increase of the papall power in england under the saxons and normans , and what oppositions it met with . fol. 9 chap. iv. of the payments to the papacy from england . fol. 74 chap. v. how far the regall power did extend it self in matters ecclesiasticall . fol. 93 chap. vi. how the kings of england proceeded in their separation from rome . fol. 118 chap. vii . how the reformation was made under queen elizabeth . fol. 126 chap. viii . how queen elizabeth settled in this kingdom the proceeding against hereticks . fol. 135 chap. ix . of the farther proceeding of queen elizabeth in the reformation . fol. 174 an historical vindication of the church of england in point of schism . chap. i. 1. it is now more than twenty yeares since defending the church of england as it was setled 1 eliz. for the most perfect and conformable to antiquity of any in europe , a gentleman , whose conversation for his learning , i very much affected , tole me , he was never satisfied of our agreeing with the primitive church in two particulars ; the one in denying all manner of superiority to the bishop of rome , to live in whose communion the east and western christian did ever highly esteem . the other , in condemning monastique living , so far , as not onely to reform them , if any thing were amiss , but take down the very houses themselves . to the first of these i said , we did not deny such a primacy in the pope as the antients did acknowledge , but that he by that might exercise those acts he of some years before hen. the 8th had done , and had got by encroaching on the english church and state meerly by their tolerance , which when the kingdom took to redress and restrain him in , he would needs interpret a departing from the church ; yet if any made the departure , it must be the pope , the kingdom standing onely on those rights it had ever used for its own preservation , which putting in practice , it was interdicted the king , excommunicated by him , &c. to which he replyed in effect that of henry the eighth in his book against luther , that it was very incredible the pope could doe those acts he had sometimes exercised here by encroachment ; for how could he gain that power and none take notice of it ? that this argument could have no force if not made good by history , and those of our own nation , how he had increased his authority here . which , truly , i did not well see how to deny , farther than that we might by one particular conclude of an other ; as if the church or state had a right of denying any clark going without license beyond seas , it must follow , it might bar them from going , or appealing to rome : if none might be acknowledged for pope without the kings approbation , it could not be denyed but the necessity of being in union with the true pope ( at least in time of schism ) did wholly depend on the king. and so of some other . 2. as for the other point of monasteries , i told him , i would not take upon me to defend all that had been done in demolishing of them ; i knew they had nourished men of piety and good learning , to whom the present age was not a little beholding ; for , what doe we know of any thing past but by their labours ? that divers well affected to the reformation , and yet persons of integrity , are of opinion their standing might have continued to the advancement of literature , the increase of piety , and relief of the poor . that the king when he took them down was the greatest looser by it himself . whose opinions i would not contradict , yet it could not be denyed , they were so far streyed from their first institution , as they reteined little other than the name of what they first were . 3. upon this i began to cast with my self how i could historically make good that i had thus asserted , which in general i held most true , yet had not at hand punctually every circumstance , law , and history that did conduce unto it ; in reading therefore i began to note apart what might serve for proof any way concerning it : but that gentleman with whom i had this speech being not long after taken away , i made no great progresse in it , till some years after , i was constreined to abide in london ( sequestred , not onely from publique , but even the private businesse of my estate ) i had often no other way of spending my time but the company a book did afford ; insomuch as i again began to turn over our ancient laws and histories , both printed and written , whereof i had the perusal of divers of good worth , whence i collected many notes , and began farther to observe the question between us and the church of rome in that point , not to be whether our ancestors did acknowledge the pope successor of st. peter , but what that acknowledgment did extend to : not whether he were vicar of christ , had a power from him to teach the word of god , administer the sacraments , direct people in the spiritual wayes of heaven ( for so had every bishop , amongst which he was ever held by them the first , pater maximus in ecclesia , as one to whom emperours and christians had not only allowed a primacy , but had left behind them why they did it , sedis apostolicae primatum sancti petri meritum , qui princeps est episcopalis coronae romanae dignitas civitatis sacrae etiā synodi firmarit auctoritas , saies a valentinian 445. on which grounds , if he will accept it , i know no reason to deny his being prime ) but whether they conceived his commission from christ did extend so far as to give him an absolute authority over the church and clergy in england , to redress , reform , correct , amend all things in it , not by advice , but as having power over it , with or against their own liking , and farther to remove , translate , silence , suspend all bishops , and others of the spirituality . in short , to exercise all ecclesiastique authority within this church above any whatsoever , so as all in holy orders ( one of the three estates of the kingdom ) solely and supreamly depended on him , and hee on none but christ ; and whether our forefathers did ever admit him with this liberty of disposing in the english church . 4. to wade through which question there was an eye to be cast on all the times since christ was heard of in england , and therfore to be considered how christianity stood upon the conversion of the britans , the saxons , and since the irruption of the normans , under the first of these we have but little , under the second somewhat , yet not much , under the third the papacy swell'd to that height , some parts have been constrained to cast it off , and england without his assent in that point so to reform it self , as to declare b no manner of speaking , doing , communication , or holding against the bishop of rome , or his pretensed power or authority , made or given by humane laws , shall be deemed to be heresy . by which it seems those episcopal functions he did exercise common with other bishops ( as baptizing , conferring holy orders , &c. ) it did not deny to be good and valid of his administration . 5. but what those particulars were humane laws had conferred upon the papacy , and by what constitutions or canons those preheminences were given him , was the thing in question , and not so easie to be found , because indeed gained by little and little , i cannot but hold truth more ancient than errour , every thing to be firmest upon its own bottom , and all novelties in the church to be best confuted by shewing how far they cause it to deviate from the first original , i no way doubt but the religion exercised by the britans before augustine came , to have been very pure and holy : nor that planted after from s. gregory , though perhaps with more ceremonies and commands , juris positivi which this church embraced rejected or varyed from , as occasion served to be other , but in the foundation most sound , most orthodox ; that holy man never intending such a superiority over this church as after was claimed . the bishops of england in their condemnation of wicliffs opinions , do not at all touch upon those c concerned the popes supremacy , and the d councell of constance that did censure his affirming . non est de necessitate salutis credere romanam ecclesiam esse supremam inter alias ecclesias , doth it with great limitations and as but an error : error est si per romanam ecclesiam intelligat universalem ecclesiam , aut concilium generale , aut pro quanto negaret primatum summi pontificiis super alias ecclesias particulares : i conceive therefore the basis of the popes or church of romes authority in england , to be no other then what being gained by custome , was admitted with such regulations as the kingdome thought might stand with it 's own conveniency , and therefore subject to those e stipulations , contracts with the papacy and pragmatiques it at any time hath made or thought good to set up , in opposition of extravagancies arising thence , in the reformation therefore of the church of england two things seem to be especially searcht into , and a third arising from them fit to be examined . 1. whether the kingdome of england did ever conceive any necessity jure divino of being under the pope united to the church and sea of rome , which drawes on the consideration how his authority hath been exercised in england under the britons , saxons and normans , what treasure was caryed annually hence to rome , how it had been gained , and how stopt . 2. whether the prince with th' advise of his cleargy was not ever understood to be endued with authority sufficient , to cause the church within his dominions be by them reformed , without using any act of power not legally invested in him , which leads me to consider what the royal authority in sacris is . 1. in making lawes that god may be truly honoured . 2 things decently performed in the church . 3. profainesse punished , questions of doubt by their cleargy to be silenced . 3. the third how our kings did proceed , especially queen elizabeth , ( under whose reformation we then lived ) in this act of separation from the sea of rome , which carries me to shew how the church of england was reformed by henry the 8. edward the 6. and queen elizabeth . wherein i look upon the proceedings abroad and at home against hereticks , the obligation to generall councells , and some other particulars incident to those times . i do not in this at all take upon me the disputation , much less the theologicall determination of any controverted tenet ( but leave that as the proper subject to divines ) this being onely an historicall narration how some things came amongst us , how opposed , how removed by our ancestors , who well understanding this church not obliged by any forraign constitutions , but as allowed by it self , & either finding the inconvenience in having them urged from abroad farther then their first reception heare did warrant . or that some of the cleargy inforced opinions as articles of faith , were no way to be admitted into that rank , did by the same authority they were first brought in ( leaving the body or essence ( as i may say ) of christian religion untouched , ) make such a declaration in those particulars , as conserved the royall dignity in it's ancient splendour , without at all invading the true legall rights of the state ecclesiasticall , yet might keep the kingdome in peace , the people without distruction , and the church in vnity . chap. ii. of the britans . 1. i shall not hear inquire who first planted christian religion amongst the britans , whether a ioseph of arimathea , b simon zelotes , c s. peter or elutherius , neither of which wants an author , yet i must confess it hath ever seemed to me by their alleadging the d asian formes in celebrating easter , their differing from the rites of rome e in severall particulars , of which those of most note were , that of easter , and baptizing after another manner , then the romans used , their often journeying to palestina , that they received the first principles of religion from asia . and if afterward caelestinus the pope did send ( according to f prosper ) germanus vice sua to reclaim them from pelagianisme , certainly th' inhabitants did not look on it , as an action of one had authority , though he might have a fatherly care of them as of the same profession with him , as a g synod in france likewise had , to whom in their distress they address themselves , to which beda attributes the help they received by germanius and lupus . 2. after this as the britans are not read to have yeilded any subjection to the papacy , so neither is rome noted to have taken notice of them , * for gregory the great about 590. being told certain children were de britannia insula did not know whether the countrey were christian or pagan , * and when augustine came hither h and demanded their obedience to the church of rome ; the abbot of bancor returned him answer : that they were obedient to the church of god , to the pope of rome , and to every godly christian , to love every one in his degree in charity , to help them in word and deed to be the children of god , and other ▪ obedience then this they did not know due to him , whom he named to be pope nor to be father of fathers . 3. the abbots name that gave this reply to augustine seems to have been dinooth and is in effect no other then what i geffry monmouth hath remembred of him , that being miro modo liber alibus artibus eruditus augustino p●tenti ab episcopis britonum subjectionem diversis monstravit argument ationibus ipsos ei nullam debere subjectionem , to which i may adde by the testimony of k beda their not only denying his propositions , sed neque illum pro archiepiscopo habiturum respondebant . and it appears l by gyraldus cambrensis , this distance between the two churches continued long even till henry the first , induced their submission by force , before which episcopi walliae à menevensi antistite sunt consecrati , & ipse similiter ab aliis tanquam suffraganeis est consecratus , nulla penitus alii ecclesiae facta professione vel subjectione : the generality of which words must be construed to have reference as well to rome as canterbury ; for , a little after , he shewes that though augustine called them to councell , as a legat of the apostolique sea , yet returned , they did proclaim they would not acknowledge him an archbishop , but did contemn both himself and what he had established . 4. neither were the scots in this difference any whit behind the britans , as we may perceive by the letter of laurentius iustus , and mellitus , to the bishops and abbots through scotland ; in which they remember the strange perversenesse of one dagamus a scottish bishop , who upon occasion coming to them did not only abstain eating with them , but would not take his meat in the same house they abode , yet they salute them with the honourable titles of their dearest lords and brethren . a certain signe of a wide distance between the opinions of rome then , and now , when men are taught not so much as m bid them farewell do not submitunto it , sure our first bishops know no such rule , who placed in their calendar for saints and holy men , as well hilda , aydon , and colman , the opposers of rome , as wilfred , agilbertus , and others who stood for it . chap. iii. of the increase of the papall power in england under the saxons and normans , and what oppositions it met with . after the planting of christian religion amongst the saxons , th' archbishop of canterbury became a person so eminent , all england was reputed his a diocese , in the colledge of bishops b london his dean , whose office it was to c summon councels , winchester his chancellour , d salisbury or ( as some ) winchester his prec●tor , or that begun the service by singing , e worcester or rather rochester his chaplain , and the other the carrier of his crosse : f expected no lesse obedience from york , then himself yielded to rome g , voluntate & beneficio , it being th' opinion of the church of england , it was but equall h ut ab eo loco mutuentur vivendi disciplinam , à cujus fomite rapuerunt credendi slammam . the dependence therefore of the clergy in england being thus wholly upon th' archbishop , it will not be amisse to take a little view both of what esteem he was in the church , and how it came to be taken off , and by degrees transferr'd to a forreign power . 2. upon the conversion of the saxons here by the preaching of augustine and his companions , and a quiet peace settled under theodore , i to whom all the english submitted , k parochiall churches by his encouragement began to be erected , and the bishop of rome greatly reverenced in this nation , as being the successour of saint peter the first bishop of the world , patriark of the west , that resided in a town l held to nourish the best clerks in christendome , and the seat of the empire : insomuch , as the devout britan ( who seemes ( as i said ) to have received his first conversion from asia ) m did go to iudea as a place of greatest sanctity , so n amongst the saxons romam adire magnae virtutis aestimabatur . but as this was of their part , no other then as to a great doctour or prelate , by whose solicitude they understood the way to heaven , and to a place in which religion and piety did most flourish ; so th' instructions thence were not as coming from one had dominion over their faith , the one side not at all giving , nor the other assuming other then that respect is fit to be rendred from a puisne or lesse skilfull to more ancient and learned teachers . as of late times when certain divines at frankford 1554. differed about the common-prayer used in england , knox and whittingham appealed to calvin for his opinion ; and receiving his 200. epistle , o it so wrought in the hearts of many , that they were not so stout to maintain all the parts of the book , as they were then against it . and doctor cox and some other , who stood for the use of the said book , wrote unto him , p excusing themselves that they put order in their church without his counsell asked . which honour they shew'd him , not as esteeming him q to have any auctority of office over them ; but in respect of his learning and merits . 3. as these therefore carried much honour , and yielded great obedience to calvin , and the church of geneva by them , r then held the purest reformed church in christendom : so it cannot be denyed but our auncestors the saxons attributed no lesse to the pope and church of rome , who yet never invaded the rights of this , as contrary to the s councel of ephesus , and the canons of the church of t england ; but left the government of it to the english prelats , yet giving his best advice and assistance for increasing devotion , and maintenance of the laws ecclesiasticall amongst them , in which each side placed the superiority . from whence it proceeded that however the pope was sought to from hence , he rarely sent hither any legat. u in the councell of calcuith held about 180. years after augustine , it is observed , a tempore sancti augustini pontificis sacerdos romanus nullus in britanniam m●ssus est , nisi nos . and x eadmerus , that it was inauditum in britannia , quemlibes hominum super se vices apostolicas gerere , nisi solum archiepiscopum cantuariae . 4. but after the pope instead of being y subject , began to be esteemed above th' ecclesiastick canons , and to pretend a power of altering , and dispensing with them , and what past by his advise and counsell onely , was said to be by his authority , he did question divers particulars had been formerly undoubtedly practic 't in this kingdom , he seeing them , and not shewing any dislike at it ; as z the receiving investitures of churches from princes , a the calling synods , the determining causes ecclesiasticall without appeals to rome , the transferring bishops , &c. but the removing these from england unto a forraign judicature , being as well in diminution of the rights of the crown , as of this church , past not with out opposition . 5. for anselm an italian , the first great promoter of the papal authority with us , pretending he ought not be barr'd b of visiting the vicar of st. peter causa regiminis ecclesiae , was told as well by the bishops as lay lords , c that it was a thing unheard , and altogether against the use of the realme , for any of the great men , especially himself to presume any such thing without the kings licence : who affirmed , d nequaquam fidem quam sibi debebat simul & apostolicae sedis obedientiam contra suam voluntatem posse servare . and the archbishop persisting in his journy thither , had not onely his bishoprick seized into the kings hand , but the pope being shew'd how his carriage was resented here , did not afford him either e consilium or auxilium , but suffered him to live an exile all that princes time f without any considerable support , or adjudging the cause in his favour . which makes it the more strange that ( having found by experience what he had heard before , that it was the king not the pope could help or hurt him ) this visit being so little to his advantage , at his first presenting himself to henry the first , he should oppose g that prince in doing him homage , and being invested by him , a right continued unto that time from his auncestors , and by which himself had received h the archbishoprick from his brother , and this on a suggestion that it was prohibited in a councell held at rome : in which he went so far as to tell the king , i quod nec pro redemptione capitis mei consentiam ei de iis quae praesens audivi in romano concilio prohiberi , nisi ab eadem sede interdictorum absolutionis prodeat , à qua constitutionis ipsorum vinculum prodiit . 6. this is the first , if not the onely time that to what was acted at rome an obedience was required here , as not to be dispensed with but from thence : for it is undoubted , this kingdome never held it self tyed by any thing past there , till received here ; as k eadmerus rightly observes , things done there not ratified here to be of no value . and when l vvinchelsea 1296. would have introduced the contrary , it cost him dear , the clergy forced to reject the command , m and the court to quit her pretenses . 7. but the dispute , however the right stood , grew so high , the king told anselme n the pope had not to meddle with his rights , and wrote that free letter we find in iorvalensis , col . 999 , 30. which i have likewise seen in an old hand recorded amongst divers other memorialls of the archbishops of canterbury : though i must needs say it seems to me by o paschalis his answer , repeating a good part of it , not sent by those he names , p but former messengers . in this controversy the popes returnes were so ambiguous , that he writ so differing from their relations were sent , it was thought fit anselme should himself go to rome : with whom k. henry sent another , q who spake plainly , his master nec pro amissione regni sui passurum se perdere investituras ecclesiarum ; and ( though rome were willing to comply in other particulars ) told anselme denying that , r he could not assure him of a welcome in england , who thereupon retired to lyons : where finding s slender comfort from rome , he sought the king by letters , and after by the means of henry's t sister made his peace ; at which yet he was not permitted ( such was his spirit ) to enter england , denying to communicate with them had received bishopricks from the king , but by the popes dispensation . the conclusion was , paschalis taught by experience , neither the court of rome nor th' archbishop gained ought by this contest , however he would not at first abate u praedecessoris sui sententiae rigorem , yet now admitted great limitations to what vrban had establisht . so as the king x assenting none for the future should be invested per laicam manum ( which was no more , but what he formerly did himself , he would now cause to be performed by a bishop ) the other agreed no prelats to be barr'd of promotion , etiamsi hominia regi fecerint , y & hoc donec per omnipotentis domini gratiam ad hoc omittendum cor regium molliatur , &c. which yet the king soon after , on the popes permission of them to the dutch , did threaten z sine dubio se resumpturum suas investituras , quia ille suas tenet in pace ; but for ought i find , it went no farther then their swearing fealty to the king , which seems to have been long a continued . 8. the papacy finding by this contest the difficulty of carrying any thing here by an high hand , thought of more moderate wayes for bringing the clergy of this nation wholy to depend on rome ; but that could not be without diminishing the power the archbishop held over them , and therefore must be wonne by degrees : to advance which nothing could more conduce , then to have a person of wisdome reside here , who might direct this church according to the papall interest . but this was thought fit to be given out before practic 't , and likely to be doubly opposed ; for th' archbishop well understood the admitting a legat for that end to be b in suae dignitatis praejudicium : and the king suffered none to be taken for pope , but whom he approved , nor any to receive so much as a letter from rome , without acquainting him with it , and held it an undoubted right of the crown , c ut neminem aliquando legati officio in anglia fungi permitteret , si non ipse , aliqua praecipua querela exigente , & quae ab archiep●scopo cantuariorum caeterisque episcopis regni terminari non posset , hoc fieri à papa postularet , &c. 9. things standing thus in the year 1100. th' archbishop of vienna coming into england , d reported himself to have the legatine power of all britain committed unto him ; which was with so much admiration of the nation ( as a thing had not been heard of before ) that ( if he had any ) at least he thought not fit to make use of his commission , but departed a nemine pro legato susceptus , nec in aliquo legati officio functus . 10. fourteen years after e paschalis the 2. by letters of the 30. of march and 1. of april , expostulates with the king about severall particulars ; of which one is , his admitting neither messenger nor letter to be received , but by his leave : but see the words ; sedis apostolicae nuncii vel literae praeter jussum regiae majestatis nullam in potestate tuâ susceptionem aut aditum promerentur , nullus inde clamor , nullum inde judicium ad sedem apostolicam destinantur , &c. and the year following addrest f anselme ( nephew to the late archbishop , and after abbot of st. edmundsbury ) hither , shewing by letters he had committed unto his administration vices apostolicas in anglia . this made known here ( though the bearer were not permitted to enter the kingdom ) the clergy and nobility gathered in councell at london concluded th' archbishop should go to the king in normandy , make known unto him the antient custome of the realme , and by his advice to rome , ( as being the person was most interessed in it ) ut haec nova annihilaret ; from whence he obtained the letter , or rather declaration to the king and clergy the same author hath g recorded . so by this care the matter was again stopt . 11. the king 1119. h sent his bishops to a councell held by calixtus the 2. at reims , at their departing gave them these instructions : not to complain of each other , because himself would right each of them at home ; that he payed that rent his predecessors had formerly done , and enjoyed likewise those priviledges had been formerly permitted them ; that they should salute the pope from him , hear his precepts , but bring no superfluities into his kingdome : but see the words ; rex anglorum praelatis regni sui ad synodum ire permisit ; sed omnino ne alicujus modi querimoniam alterutrum facerent , prohibuit : dixit , omni plenariam rectitudinem conquerenti faciam in terra mea : redditus ab anterioribus constitutos romanae ecclesiae singulis annis errogo , & privilegia nihilominus ab antiquis temporibus pari modo mihi concessa teneo . ite , dominum papam de parte mea salutate , & apostolica tantum praecepta humiliter audite , sed superfluas adinventiones regne meo inferre nolite , &c. certainly this prince did hold , the pope with the advice of a councell might labour to introduce superfluous inventions , which the english were not tyed to receive , the disputes of his bishops be by him ended at home without carrying their complaints beyond seas , according to th' assize i of clarendoun ; the king in nothing obliged to rome , but in the payment of peter-pence , as his father had before k exprest himself . 12. in november following the pope and king had a l meeting at gisors in normandy , where calixtus confirmed unto him the usages his father had practic 't in england and normandy , and in especiall that of sending no legat hither , but on the princes desire . yet notwithstanding the same m pope not fully two years after addrest another legat to these parts : but he by the kings wisdome was so diverted , ut qui legati officio fungi in tota britannia venerat , immunis ab omni officio tali via qua venerat extra angliam à rege missus est , &c. 13. but here by the way the reader may take notice , these words , n collata , o impetrata , concessa , permissa , used by our best authors in speaking of the rights of the crown in points of this nature , do not import as if it had onely a delegatory power from the pope by some grant of his , as is fancied by those p would have it so ; for we read of no such concessions from him , unlesse that of nicholas the 2. of which in the next : but that they were continually exercised , the pope seeing , & either approving , or at least making no such shew of his disliking them , as barr'd their practice , which by comparing the said authors is plain . eadmerus , p. 125 , 53 , 54. speaks as if these customes were concessa , fungi permissa from rome ; which pag. 118 , 33 , 40. he calls antiqua angliae consuetudo , libertas regni , &c. so pag. 116 , 22. he terms them privilegia patri & fratri suo , sibique à romana ecclesia jam olim collata , &c. about which yet it is manifest , even q by him , the court of rome was ever in contest with our kings , about them , who maintained them as their royalties against it , and challenged by henry the 1. by no other title then r dignitates , usus , & consuetudines , quas pater ejus in regno habuit , &c. which the pope s calls honores quos antecessorum nostrorum tempore pater tuus habuer at , and affirmes to be grata in superficie , — interius requisita & legati vocibus exposita , gravia & vehementissima paruerunt : so far have popes been from conferring the least unto them . see cap. 3. n. 19. 14. it is true , things done by princes as of their own ⸫ right , popes finding not means to stop , would in former ages as later , by priviledge continue unto them . nicholaus papa hoc domino meo privilegium , quod ex paterno jure susceperat , praebuit , t said th' emperours advocate . and the same pope finding our kings to expresse one part of their office to be regere populum domini , & ecclesiam ejus , wrote to edward the confessor , vobis & posteris vestris regibus angliae committimus advocationem ejusdem loci , & omnium totius angliae ecclesiarum , & vice nostra cum concilio episcoporum & abbatum constituatis ubique quae justa sunt . as a few years since , u the republick of venice not assenting to send their patriarch to an examination at rome , according to a decree of clement the 8 th , paulus quintus declared that imposterum venetiarum antistites clementis decreto eximerentur : so that now that state doth by an exemption what they did before as soveraign princes . besides , kings did many times as graunts ask those things of the pope , they well understood themselves to have power of doing without him . x henry the 5 th . demanded of martin the 5. five particulars : to which his ambassadors finding him not so ready to assent , told him se in mandatis habere , ut coram eo profiteantur , regem in iis singulis jure suo usurum , utpote quae non necessitatis , sed honoris causa petat , & ut publicam de ea re coram universo cardinalium coetu protestationem interponant . and to the same purpose there are sundry examples yet remaining on record , where y the king on the petition of the commons for redresse of some things ( of ecclesiastick cognizance ) amisse , first chuses to write to the pope ; but on his delay , or failing to give satisfaction , doth either himself by statute redresse th' inconvenience , or command the archbishop to see it done . 15. but here before i proceed any farther , because it cannot be denyed , in former times there was often intercourse between the church of england and rome , and such as were sent from thence hither are by some styled nuncii , by others legati ; i think it not amisse to consider what the cause was one side so much opposed the sending a legat , and the other so laboured to gain it . 16. after the erection of canterbury into an archbishoprick , the bishops of that see were held quasi alteri●s orbis papae , as vrban the 2. z styled them , did onely exercise a vices apostolicas in anglia , that is used the same power within this island the pope did in other parts ; the one b claiming , because europe had been converted by disciples sent from rome ; the other , that he had sent c preachers through england . and is therefore called frequently in our writers d princeps episcoporum angliae , e pontif●x summus , f patriarcha , g primas , and his seat h cathedra patriarchatus anglorum ; and this not in civility onely , but they were as well i sic habiti as nominati . it is true , the correspondency between it and the roman was so great , they were rather held one then two churches : yet if any question did arise , the determination was in a councell or convocation here ; as k the deposing stygand , l the settling the precedency between canterbury and york , m the instructions i mentioned of hen. 1. to his bishops , n the right of the kingdome that none should be drawn out of it auctoritate apostolica , do enough assure us ; if recourse were had to rome , it was onely o ut majori concilio decidatur quod terminari non p●tuit , as to the more learned divines , to the elder church , of greatest note in europe , by whom these were converted , and therefore more reverenced by this , as that was most sollicitous of their well-doing , and most respected for their wisdome . all which is manifest by that humble letter ⸫ kenulphus & others of mercia wrote about 797. to leo the 3. wherein it plainly appears , he seeks to that see for direction , because the conversion of the nation first came from thence , and there resided in it men of sound learning , whom he doth therefore desire as quibus à deo merito sapientiae clavis collata est , ut super hac causa ( which was the placing an archiepiscopall chair at litchfield , ) cum sapientibus vestris quaeratis , & quicquid vobis videatur nobis postea rescribere dignemini . by which it is clear his inquisition was as unto persons of profound literature , ( had the key of knowledge conferred on them ) not as to those had auctority over this church . 17. as for acts of ecclesiastick auctority , what proceeded not from the king , did from th' archbishop , who was not at all commanded by any , p nullius unquam legati ditioni addictus , but q preceded them all . r none did were a miter within his province , or had the crosier carried , nor layd any excommunication ; and when he did , the s clergy of the place did teach , both from the king and archbishop , not to value it , on this ground , that in dioecesi archiepiscopi apostolicam non tenere sententiam . 18. as for councells , it is certain none from rome did , till 1125. call any here : if they did come to any , as to calcuith , the king upon the advise of th' archbishop t statuit diem concilii . so when william the first held one at winchester 1070. for deposing stygand , though there came to it three sent from alexander the second , yet it was held u jubente & presente rege , who was x president of it . the difference touching precedency between the sees of canterbury and york having been before the same pope , and by him sent back for a determination at home , it is observable , that in a councell said therefore to be called ●x praecepto alexandri papae annuente rege , the popes legat subscribed the 16 th . after all the english bishops : as is truly y recorded in the antiquitat . britannicae ecclesiae p. 95 , 40. agreeing with a very ancient ms. copy i have seen of the said councell ; as diceto and others do z rank him after the king , canterbury , and york . if any shall ask whether i have met no copies in which he was placed otherwise , i must confesse i have seen some books wherein he was above the english bishops , next after the queen ; but they were onely late transcripts , not of any antiquity , as in a a book of crouland writ since the beginning of henry the 7. 19. the pope for many years now past , for being a spirituall pastor , and patriarch of the west , hath been treated with more reverence than any bishop , and for being a potent temporall prince , with more observance then meerly a ghostly father . a b grave writer notes , henry the first having gone through the troubles were on him with his brother , and likewise anselm , subjugatis omnibus inimicis securus erat , nec aliquem ut primìtus formidabat praeter papam , & hoc non propter spiritualem , sed temporalem potestatem . which as it is recorded of that prince , so no question is true of many others . 20. by which we may see , when rome did in former times apostolica authoritate praecipere , it was to bishops ( whom he styled his brothers , ) no other then such fraternall commands the elder may and doth ordinarily lay upon the younger brother , of whom he is sollicitous ; such as st. pauls were c to the thessalonians , d philemon , &c. no other then of late calvins were to knox , who being chosen by certain of franckford to be preacher unto them , e their vocation he ob●yed , albeit unwillingly , at the commandment of that notable servant of god iohn calvin , &c. and a little after the lords of scotland sending for him home , f did accompany their letters to him with others to mr. calvin , craving of him , that by his auctority he would command the said iohn once again to visit them , &c. and truly whosoever will without partiality seriously consider the whole contexture of our lawes and histories , weighing one circumstance with another , must conclude the popes commanding to have been volentibus , not nolentibus , ( as g st. hierom says those of a bishop ought to be ) for if disliked , his precepts were h questioned , i opposed , k those he sent not permitted to meddle with that they came for , their prohibitions that others should not , neglected : the english having ever esteemed the church of canterbury in spiritualls , that is quae sunt ordinis ; without any intervening superior l omnium nostrum mater communis sub sponsi sui iesu christi dispositione ; in other things , as points of government , the ordering that of right and custome ever to have belonged to the king assisted * with his councell of bishops , and others of the clergy , who was therefore called vicarius christi , &c. as i shall shew hereafter more at large . m the church of england holding that of s ● . augustine an undoubted truth , in hoc reges , sicut eis divinitus praecipitur , deo serviunt in quantum reges sunt , si in suo reg no bona jubeant , mala prohibeant , non solum quae pertinent ad humanam societatem , verum etiam quae ad divinam religionem : and accordingly our kings , so far as any laws or records of their actions are extant , from ethelbert by the saxons to the conquest , and from the normans to these later times , have upon occasion exercised a power , shewing such titles were not in vain conferred on them . neither did any decision , though never so punctually had in rome , unlesse the parties agreed , stint the strife , till the king concurred with it ; as the frequent determinations on the behalf of canterbury in point of superiority above york , found in n malmsbury and others , may teach us , which yet never received a finall end , till edward the 3. under the great seal set a o period to that long controversy . 21. but after the pope began to think ( or rather to say ) himself had onely p plenitudo ecclesiasticae potestatis , q that no councell could give laws to him , but all receive strength from him , and the canonists flattery extended to declare him r supra jura , & in ●o sufficit pro ratione voluntas ; his missives ran in an higher tone then formerly , and his commands , which were at first according to s th' example of st. paul joyned with exhortations , entreaties , and the like , to carry t apostolica auctoritate comprimere ; and to th' archbishop demurring in th' execution of them , u tuum candelabrum concutiemus , & tantam praesumptionem cum gravibus usuris exigemus ; and , x si mandatum nostrum neglexeris vel distuleris adimplere , quia justum est ut ei obedientia subtrahatur qui sedi apostolicae neglexerit obedire , venerabilibus fratribus suffraganeis tuis per scripta nostra mandavimus , ut tibi reverentiam non impendant . quod si &c. tibi feceris exhiberi , s●ias te tunc ab episcopali dignitate suspensum , &c. phrases and manners of writing denoting much more of auctority then was used by popes in elder times . by which is manifest , the point in difference between the archbishop and the pope to have been not the sending a legat hither , but of one with a power above him , to command the english clergy , that is to remove their dependency from him to rome as a superior over him . 22. to his gaining which these usages of th' archbishops were great stops , drawing so near an equality , and so pregnant testimonies of his no-divine right to meddle here , not easy to be removed , unlesse some from the pope were admitted into the kingdome , that might at least give an essay to the guiding the english church after the papall interest : but that , how earnestly soever prest , came to no effect till 1125. iohannes cr●mensis , a person well understanding ( as y appeares by his carriage six years before at reims ) the designes of rome , z came to the king in normandy ; where after some stay , his journey hither was permitted ; with what qualifications i find not ; but coming with letters to canterbury at easter , performed th' office of the day in a more eminent chair as an archbishop , for so i english loco summi pontificis , according to the a phrase of those times , and , though a cardinall priest , used insigniis pontisicalibus the habit of a bishop : which being b an unusuall novelty , past not without scandall . but in a councell which he held and presided in at london , the kingdom took more offence : i shall deliver it in my authors own words ; c totam angliam in non modicam commovit indignationem : videres enim rem eatenus regno anglorum inauditam , clericum scilicet presbiterii tantum gradu perfunctum , archiepiscopis , episcopis , abbatibus , totiusque regni nobilibus qui confluxerant , in sublimi solio praesidere ; illos autem deorsum sedentes , ad nutum ejus vultu & auribus animum suspen sum habentes . from whence we may conclude it a thing before not heard of , for any legat , though a cardinall , to precede bishops , ( the first councell in which they preceded archbishops i take to have been the councell of vienna 1311. where th' archbishop of york is noted to have been placed d primus & praecipuus post cardinales , & post trevirensem archiepiscopum ; ) or be seated in a more eminent place over them ; ( i have e shew'd they did not subscribe in english councells above them ; ) that these mutations were scandalous to the nation . 23. as this is the first ecclesiastick synod called and managed by any legat from rome ; so before his credentiall f letters from honorius the 2. as well to the lay as clergy , i have not met with the text g pasce oves meas used to prove him the generall pastor of all the world : it is true , paschalis the 2. h ten years before uses it to prove his auctority over i bishops ; but neither doth k anselme 1095. produce it , neither doth this cardinall at l reims 1119. mention it , though either of them did alleadge as many places of scripture as were then common to prove th' extent of his power ; and petrus blesensis , that lived a little after , m interprets it as spoken to all bishops , and to import no other then evangelizare : a certain signe , if that exposition were hatch't before , it was not common , which afterward approved by n st. bernard , and inserted into o the canon law by boniface the 8. about the year 1300. is now stood upon as the basis of papall greatnesse . but to return to that we were on . 24. the archbishop sensible of these indignities , proceeds not as his predecessor , by joynt councell of the bishops , abbots and nobility , but hath himself recourse to rome ( who already knew p se convertere ad oratorum versutias , dummodo consulat suis profectibus ) where the pope , ( which was honorius the 2. ) committed unto him q vices suas in angliâ & scotiâ , & apostolicae sedis legatum constituit : so that he who before was r primas angliae , scotiae & hiberniae , necne adjacentium insularum , that none else s gerebat vices apostolicas in britannia , and this of his own right , without any delegatory power , might now doing the same be said to do it by a power derived from rome . an invention highly advantagious to the papacy : for before the king and archbishop , or rather the archbishop by the kings will and appointment , had ever taken cognizance of all matters of episcopacy ; as the erection of bishopricks , disposing and translating bishops , &c. so paschalis the 2. expostulates with hen. the 1. t that praeter auctoritatem nostram episcoporum translationes praesumitis , &c. and the * deposing of them to have been in a synod u historians of all times before assure us , even unto lanfrank , who x attempted it upon small grounds against wolstan . as for dividing bishopricks , and erecting new where none were , y theodore did five in mercia cum consensu regum & principum , ( without ever sending to rome ) as he did others z elsewhere . and henry the 1. long after placed episcopall chaires at ely and carlisle , without acquainting the popes with it . it is true , anselme an italian , either not knowing the rights of the kingdome , or rather out of a desire to interest the pope in every thing , writes to him of ely , that a de vestrae pendet auctoritate prudentiae to adde strength to ecclesiastick ordinances of this nature ; yet it is clear by his very letter , the king , bishops and nobility had already concluded on it , with whom he had concurr'd , asking paschalis assent after the deed done : which shews rather he did it in civility , then of necessity , ne à posteris ulla praesumptione violetur , that no cavilling might arise in the future to the disturbance of an action well settled , that past by so great advice , as not onely the english church , but the first bishop of the world and patriarch of the west joyned in seeing the needfulnesse of it . and it is here not unworthy the remembring , that q. mary , how much so ever addicted to rome , yet admitted the b bishops of those sees her father had erected during the schism ( as they called it ) to sit in parliament , before any confirmation of them by the pope . 25. of these and the like , though cases proper for the c papacy alone , yet being without scruple exercised in the church of england , and no controul from rome ▪ it would not be easy to dispossesse the archbishop of medling with , by strong hand , especially on an essay made before in the case of wilfred , it being affirmed , d quod esset contra rationem , homini jam bis à tota anglorum ecclesia damnato , propter quaelibet apostolica scripta communicare : the way therefore of making him the popes legat was invented , by which those particulars he did before without interruption of his own right , he ( whom it was not easy to barre of doing them ) might be said to act as his agent : which was about * this time first committed unto him of any archbishop of canterbury ; though e baronius , not finding how the very same past before , fancies theodore to have done them , cui totius angliae à romano pontifice veluti apostolicae sedis legato cura credita erat ; who certainly if he were his legat , was very immorigerous in the case of wilfred . but to leave that as a chimaera not to be assented to , mentioned by no ancient author , it is true , not long after he conferr'd the title of legatus natus on th' archbishop , f of which hereafter . 26. to return to th' archbishop , who came home with this legatine power 1127. g crowns the king at windsor , and in may following holds a councell at westminster , cui praesedit ipse , sicut apostolicae sedis legatus ; which is the first councell any archbishop is noted to have held as a papall legat ; and during his life , which was seven years , england did not see any other . 27. after his death the see of canterbury lay two years vacant , so a fit time for the pope to look this way , especially k. stephen making it part of his title , that he was h confirmed by him in his kingdome : therefore 1138. innocentius the second sent hither albericus bishop of hostia , the second stranger i find exercising the legatine auctority in england ; yet he was not at first received for one , but i vix tandem pro reverenti● domini papae . he indeed went farther then ever any had , for he not onely called the clergy apostolica auctoritate ( as our historians terme it ) to a synod , ( i confesse he avoyds the word in his letters of summons , styling it k colloquium , perhaps not to enter into dispute with the king , who then took himself to be the onely l caller of them , and the allower of what they did ) but did farther command the prior and convent of canterbury , &c. m to chuse such an archbishop , cui sacrorum canonum auctoritas in nullo valcat obviare , cui comprovinciales episcopi pariter debeant assentire , & cui dominus rex nec possit nec debet assensum suum juste denegare : but farther not at all intromitting himself . and in the councell he held , amongst other particulars , he ordained , that if any injured an ecclesiastick person , n nisi tertio admonitus satisfecerit , anathemate feriatur , neque quisquam ei praeter romanum pontificem , nisi mortis urgente periculo , modum poenitentiae finalis injungat . this is the first that by canon , ought done in england was referr'd to rome , as having a greater power then the english bishops to absolve : ( of the laws of hen. the 1. i shall speak o hereafter . ) but whether it were not here much regarded , or th' excesses used by king stephen against certain bishops , and the prohibiting a councell held 〈◊〉 winchester to send to rome , as p against the dignity of the realm , or that he freed of imprisonment desired to make so potent a party , as the clergy then was , more of his side , i cannot say ; but assuredly it was again renewed in a q councell at london about some four years after . 28. the same pope 1139. conferr'd upon henry , k. stephens brother , and the potent bishop of winchester , this legatine power , which was by him publish't in a councell at winchester , where his faculties w●re read r bearing date the 1. march ; and being as well s angliae dominus by reason of the power he held wi●h stephen , as apostolicae sedis legatus , he called thither th' archbishop that had then some contest with the monks of st. augustines , ( whom the pope generally favour'd against him ) referr'd to his decision from rome , so that he caused both parties the t second time to appear there before him 1143. as legat , and by compromise ended the businesse . yet this calling of the archbishop u unto him was not taken well : and the same year 1143. he did by apostolick command restore ieremy , removed by theobald , ( notwithstanding his appeal to rome ) to be prior of canterbury : which restitution the said prior did not think fit to stand by , but for avoiding trouble took an 100. marks to pay his debts , and placed himself in st. augustines . by these carriages there grew great distasts between these two great prelats : the one as archbishop prohibited winchester x all ecclesiastick functions , however the popes legat ; and both apply themselves to the pope ; from whence our historians do fetch the use of appeals to rome ; as indeed there could not well be any cause of them before : for as the one case is the first ever any archbishop was called out of his diocese to make answer to any legat as his superior ; so i believe it will be hard to give an example of ought done by th' archbishop in his own bishoprick till now alter'd by a forreign auctority . and here , having mentioned the introducing of appeals , the reader will give me leave to digresse a little , both to shew what is meant by them , and the manner of prosecution of them ; and then y to return , and observe the event of the archbishops and legats in the court of rome . 29. it cannot be denyed , the word appeal to have been used in former times with reference to the papacy . z cum praesul sedem apostolicam appellasset , sayes malmsbury of vvilfred ; and a councell held in italy concerning him , a apostolicam sedem de suâ causâ appellans ▪ and of some others . yet nothing is more certain then those in whose time this was did not at all hold the pope to have any power of righting him , other then by intercession ; not as a superior court , by sentencing in his favour , to undo what had past theodore ; ( * without whose assent the king could not have deprived him of his seat , ) for when the popes b letters were brought hither for his restitution , egfrid , with th' advise of his bishops , not onely refused , but clapt vvilfred in prison ; and after his death the c pope sending others vita graves & aspectu honorabiles , alfrith though he received the men with great reverence , yet would by no means admit the restauration they came about , but affirmed it against reason to do it ( he having been twice condemned ) proper quaelibet apostolica scripta . and as this was in a time when christianity most flourished in this nation , having in generall d fortissimos christianosque reges ; so of the kings that did it , of egfrid e beda left , that he was piissimus & deo dilectissimus : neither can he find any other thing to blame in alfrith worthily , and the bishops that did f concur in the action were g holy men , well seen in divine and secular learning ; so that it is not imaginable any thing past them not warranted by the doctrine and rules of this church . 30. for the understanding of which , we are to know the word appeal is taken severall wayes ; sometimes h to accuse , sometimes for referring our selves to some one for his judgment ; such was that of vvilfreds appealing to rome , as to a great spirituall doctor and church whose judgment was very venerable in the world , as of late iohn calvins and the church of geneva was to them of scotland and frankford , &c. another way we take it for removing a cause from an inferior to a superior court or iudge , that hath power of disannulling whatsoever the former did ; and this is that our historians affirm not to have been in use till after 1140. it is certain , long after vvilfred i the bishops and nobility did assure anselme , that for any of the great ones , especially him , to have recourse to rome without the kings leave , to be inauditum & usibus ejus omnino contrarium ; and therefore required of him an oath , quod nunquam amplius sedem sancti petri , vel ejus vicarium , pro quavis quae tibi ingeri queat causa appelles . i know anselm , an italian , where the opinion of the papall absolutenesse had now begun to root , did maintain this was petrum abjurare , and that christum abjurare , and is the first of our bishops spake any thing in that sort ; with whose sense the kingdome did not concur in it . for it is manifest , in those dayes and after , appeals to rome were not common . in the year 1115. k paschalis the 2. expostulates with henry the 1. that nullus inde clamor , nullum judicium ad sedem apostolicam destinatur : and again , l vos oppressis apostolicae sedis appellationem subtrahitis . and anselme himself speaking of the proceeding of the king in a case by him esteemed onely of ecclesiastick cognizance , lays down the manner to be , that it should be onely m ad singulos episcopos per suas parochias , aut si ipsi episcopi in hoc negligentes fuerint , ad archiepiscopum & primatem ; adding nothing of carrying it to rome , of which i know no other reason , but that it was not then usuall to remove causes from the primate thither . yet after this , either the importunity of the pope prevailed with the * king , or the passage was inserted after his dayes into the lawes carry his name ; ( as some other in the same chapter may seem to have been ) but certain in them though he give for a rule that of pope n fabian or sixtus 3. ibi semper causa agatur ubi crimen admittitur , yet a bishop erring in faith , and on admonition appearing incorrigible , o ad summos pontifices ( the archbishops ) vel sedem apostolicam accusetur . this is the onely case wherein i find any english law approve a forreign judicature . 31. but whether from the countenance of this law , or the great oppressions used by the legat king stephens brother , or the frequency of them , it is certain , 1151. appeals were held a p cruell intrusion on the churches liberty ; so as in the assize at clarendoun 1164. collected by the body of the realm , q the 8. chapter is solely spent in shewing the right of the kingdome in that particular : which r iohannes sarisburiensis interprets , quod non appellaretur pro causâ aliquâ ad sedem apostolicam , nisi regis & officialium suorum venia impetra●a . upon which the bishop of london moved alexander the third , beckets cause might be determined s appellatione remota : at which the pope seems to be moved , and told him , haec est gloria mea quam alteri non dabo . and though it seems by a t letter of the same prelat , the king would have restrained his power onely to such as had first made tryall of receiving justice at home , claiming ex antiqua regni institutione , ob civilem causam nullus clericorum regni sui fines exeat , &c. and that too , if amiss , would have corrected by th' advise of the english church : yet while th' archbishop lived , that would not be hearkened to ; but after his death , at the peace which 1172. ensued between him and the church of rome , it was onely concluded , the king not to hinder appeals thither in ecclesiastick causes , yet so as a party suspected before his going was to give security not to endeavour malum suum nec regni . but the kingdom meeting in parliament at northampton 1176. not fully four years after , would not quit their interest , but did again renew th' assize of clarendoun , using in this particular somewhat a more close expression : ⸫ iusticiae faciant quaerere per consuetudinem terrae illos qui à regno recesserunt , & nisi redire voluerint infra terminum nominatum , & stare in curia domini regis , utlagentur , &c. in effect the same as gervasius dorobernensis well understood , who tells us , u rex angliae henricus convocatis regni primoribus apud northamptoniam , renovavit assisam de clarendonia , eamque praecepit observari ; pro cujus execrandis institutis beatus martyr thomas cantuariensis usque in septennium exulavit , & tandem glorioso martyrio coronatus est . 32. after which the going to rome remained during this kings and his son richard's time , onely according to their pleasures , the clergy lying under the penalty of this law , if they did attempt farther then the princes liking : of which we have a very pregnant example in the case of geffrey archbishop of york , k. richards brother , who accused to coelestinus 3 us that he did not onely x refuse appeals to rome , but imprisoned those who made them ; upon it the pope y commits the cause to be heard by the bishop of lincoln and others , who thereupon z transfer themselves to york , where hearing the testimonies of those appeared before them , assigned him a time to make his defence to the pope . but the archbishop being then well with his brother , pretended he could not present himself in rome a for the kings prohibition , and the indisposition of the aire . not long after the king and he fell so at odds , b quod praecepit illum dissaisiri de archiepiscopatu suo , &c. coelestinus upon this takes an opportunity to declare a suspension to be notifyed through all the churches of his diocese , injoyning , what the king had before , the lay as well as the clergy , c ne ipsi archiepiscopo vel officialibus ejus in tempor alibus respondere praesumant , donec de ipso archiepiscopo aliud duxerimus statuendum . the offence with his brother still remaining , the bishop expecting now no help at home , goes upon this to rome , makes his peace with the pope , and returns : but the king d committed the ●are even of the spiritualls of his archbishoprick to others , without permitting him or his agents to meddle with ought , till about two years after he e reconciled himself to the crown ; after which he gave innocentius 3 us occasion to write , f non excusare te potes ut debes , quod illud privilegium ignoraris , per quod omnibus injuste gravatis facultas patet ad sedem apostolicam appellandi , cum & iu ipse aliquando ad nostram audientiam appellaris ; and a little after , nec auctoritatem nostram attendis , nec factam tibi gratiam recognoscis , nec appellationibus defers quae interponuntur ad sedem apostolicam , &c. and about the same time g robert abbot of thorney , deposed by hubert th' archbishop , was laid in prison a year and half without any regard had of the appeal by him made to the pope : and this to have been the practice during king richards time , the continued quarrells of popes for not admitting men to appeal unto them doth fully assure as . 33. but innocentius 3 us having prevailed against king iohn , and the clergy great instruments in obtaining magna charta from that prince , either in favour of them , or for some other reason , there was inserted , h liceat unicuique de caetero exire de regno nostro & redire salvò & securè per terram & per aquam , salva fide nostra , nisi in tempore guerrae per aliquod breve tempus : which clause seems likewise to have been in that of henry the 3. to his fathers i in nullo dissimilis : after which it is scarce imaginable how every petty cause was by appeals removed to rome , and th' archbshop forced to appear before any had the least auctority from thence . the popes themselves wise men saw th' inconvenience , that these carriages must end either in rendring th' archbishop contemptible , by taking all power out of his hands , or the realm resume its ancient right , and prohibit the carrying ought beyond seas , or admitting any legat into the kingdom ; thought of the way of granting severall priviledges to the archbishoprick , which first began about the time of innocentius the 2. whom others followed . 34. gregory the ninth therefore moved by one of them ( which seems to be st. edmund ) writes thus unto him : k vt cum appellationis remedium non ad defensionem malignantium , sed ad oppressorum subsidium sit inventum , yet th' archbishop attempting sometimes excessus corrigere subditorum , quidam eorum , ut correctionem effugiant , appellationes frustratorias interponunt , quibus si cite pro reverentia sedis apostolicae humiliter deferatur , illi ex impunitate deteriores effecti pejora praesumunt , & alii eorum exemplo redduntur ad vitia proniores ; unde humiliter postulastis , &c. — ut providere super haec solita diligentia deberemus : ut igitur auctoritati tuae in rectis dispositionibus nihil tali praetextu deesse contingat , fraternitati tuae praesentium auctoritate concedimus , ut , non obstante * frivolae appellationis objectu , libere valeas in corrigendis subditorum tuorum excessibus officii tui debitum exercere . 35. ⸫ and for that his agents here in their citations of th' archbishop did not use that respect unto him which was fit , but as gervasius dorobernensis observes of one of them , l legati privilegium plusquam deceret extenderet in immensum , suumque archiepiscopum & episcopos angliae ut sibi occurrerent quolibet evocaret ; the same pope did therefore declare , that , cum nimis indecens videatur , ut per literas apostolicas tacito * tuo nomine dignitatis inter privatas personas stare judicio compellaris , nos fraternitatis tuae precibus inclinati , auctoritate tibi praesentium indulgemus , ut per literas à sede apostolicâ impetratas quaede dignitate tua non fecerint mentionem respondere minime teneris ; &c. dat. viterbii 4. non. martii , pontif. nono . 36. ⸫ and because th' archbishop had on many slight occasions been drawn beyond seas , to the great impoverishing th' episcopacy , the same pope two months after writes , ea propter , venerabilis in christo frater , tuis supplicationibus inclinati , fraternitati tuae auctoritate praesentium indulgemus , ut per literas apostolicas extra angliam invitus non valeas conveniri , nisi de indulgentia hujusmodi fecerint eaeliterae mentionem , aut per te aliquod factum fuerit per quod sit indulgentiae huic derogatum . dat. perusii 4. non. maii , pontificat . nono . innocentius 4. ut nullus sine speciali apostolicae sedis licentia , praeter legatos ipsius ab ejus latere destinatos , in personam tuam praesumat excommunicationis sententiam promulgare . lugduni 13. kalend. octob. pontif. 4. 37. it would be tedious to repeat all the bulls found in the said old ms. and other books since 1130. ( for before it seems there was none in this kind ) to conserve some power in th' archbishoprick , yet so as it might ever depend on rome ; and how much the papacy gained by these , every man sees . i. the right of th' archbishoprick was , none by appeal might remove any ecclesiastick cause from his judicatory : the pope grants , he shall proceed notwithstanding a frivolous appeal . ii. the right was , he was not at all under any legat : the grant is , he should not be tyed to answer , if they did not mention his dignity in their citations . iii. the right was , he should not be drawn beyond the seas ( of which in the next : ) the grant is , he should not be compell'd to go , unlesse mention were made of that bull. iiii. the question was , whether the pope might excommunicate any within the diocese of canterbury : the grant is , none but a legate de latere should th' archbishop . yet certainly popes did what they well could , retaining to themselves that vast power they then pretended , to conserve in the archbishoprick some auctority . 38. but the frequent citing him and others out of the realm , and the carrying their causes to rome , did not at all satisfy the subject ; whereupon the body of the kingdome , m in their querulous letter devised and sent by them to innocentius 4 tus . 1245 , ( or rather to the councell at lions ) claim as an especiall priviledge , that no legat ought to come here , but on the kings desire , n & ne quis extra regnum trahatur in causam : and at the revising of magna charta by edward the first , the former clause was left out , since when none of the clergy might go beyond seas but with the kings leave , as the o writs in the register , and the p acts of parliament assure us ; and what is more , if any were in the court of rome , the king called them q home , not permitting any to go or abide there longer then his pleasure . yet i do not say these times do not furnish examples of appeals or recourse thither , or receiving commands from thence ; i know the contrary : but it was onely between those , and in such cases , as the king ( holding good correspondency with the pope ) and state did either tacitely connive at , as in matters of small moment , or expressely give allowance unto : for if otherwise , no person was so great , but he was forced to gain his pardon for the offence . to which purpose th' example of the * rich bishop of winchester may not be unfitly remembred , who being a cardinall of the kings blood , was employed by martyn the 5. as generall against the bohemians , and to that end erected the crosse 1429. 8. hen. 6. but two years after caused a petition to be exhibited in parliament , r that he the said cardinall nor none other should be poursued , vexed , impleded , or grieved by the king , his heyres or successors , nor by any other person , for cause of any provision , or offence , or misprision done by the said cardinall against any statute of provisions , or per cause of any exemption , receipt , acceptation , admission or execution of any bulls papall to him in any manner made : which was granted , and shews that without it he had been lyable to punishment for his accepting and receiving of them . and here it is not unworthy the remembring , that this was the first cardinall england ever saw a privy councellor . he having sometimes sought that dignity in henry the 5 ths time , upon the news , the archbishop of cant. gave the king notice of it , in a letter yet extant ; which did so affect that prince , as he was sometimes heard to say , * that he had as lieve set his crown beside him , as see him wear a cardinals hat . but he being soon after taken away , and the honour conferr'd on this prelate in iune 1426. by martin the 5. * at his coming into england , the lords of his maties councell caused him to make a protestation for his comportment in the future ; and the 8th of hen. the 6. it was agreed by the lords in parliament , he should be on the kings part required to attend his maties counsells , sub protestatione tamen subsequente , quod quotiens aliqua , materiae , causae , vel negotia ipsum dominum regem aut regna seu dominia sua ex parte una , ac sedem apostolicam ex parte altera concernentia , hujus concilii regiis communicanda & tractanda fuerint , idem cardinalis se ab hujusmodi consilio absentet , & communicationi earundem causarum , materiarum , & negotiorum non intersit quovis modo , &c. and yet his former engagement made to the councell to be firme and inviolable . upon which the said cardinall the 18. of december 8. h. 6. ann. 1429. after his thanks to the king and lords , and his admitting the said protestations tanquam rationi consonas , was received for one of the councell . but i return to that i was treating of . 39. the truth of this barring appeals is so constantly averr'd by all the ancient monuments of this nation , as one not finding how to deny it , falls upon another way , s that if the right of appeals were abrogated , it concludes not the see of rome had no jurisdiction over this church , except one should be so senselesse as to imagine the prefect of the pretorian court were not subject to th' emperors auctority , because it was not lawfull full to appeal from them , according to the law in the t digests . to which i answer , that if it be granted ( which is very disputable ) this law is to be extended to th' emperor , yet it proceeded from himself , who might limit his own power : but he is desired to consider , this canon of appeals did not from any pope ; for the africans did , and the church of england doth maintain it as an inherent right of their own , to give laws in that particular , and ever had strong contests with the papacy about it , which held it an honour not to be parted with ; and they opposing him in it , must of necessity have held that superintendency he exercised over them not to be jure divino , for then no man could have exempted himself from having recourse unto him . in france there are severall courts of parliament from which no appeal lies , who receiving that priviledge from the king , it cannot be said to be in diminution of his royalty , because that they have , he gave : but if ever any of them should claim this as of their own right , denying the king to have at any time a power of intermedling with them , i shall leave the objector to draw what consequence he will from it ; for my part i can no other , but that they esteemed themselves very little his subjects . 40. the reader will pardon this digression , which i have the longerstood upon , to give him the more full satisfaction how appeals were first brought in , and how pursued ; i shall now , in what manner the legat and archbishop prosecuted theirs : who being u both before lucius the 2. 1144. the bishop of winchester was x dismist his legatine commission ; and the pope finding with how great difficulty the ecclesiastick affairs of this kingdome could be managed by any legat without the archbishop of canterbury , thought of a very subtile invention to conserve his own auctority , and not have any crossing with that prelat , which was to create him and his successors legatinati ; by which , such things as he did before , and had a face of enterfeering with the papal plenitude , and were not so easy to devest th' archbishop of exercising , he might be said to do by a legatine power : of which it was not long before the pope made use , as is to be seen in his y decretalls ; where alexander the 3. resolves he could not hear jure metropolitico matters episcopall that came not unto him per appellationem , ( that is in a legall way ) but jure legationis he might such as were brought unto him onely per quaerimoniam : an invention z often practic 't afterward , and highly advantagious to the court of rome , as what made bishops but his deputies . 41. the a antiquitates britannicae eccles. and from him b harpsfield , speak as if this honour were first bestowed on theobald ; which it seems to me could not be , till the taking it away from winchester by lucius the 3. after the death of innocentius 2. c diceto sayes , caelestinus 3. ( about some ten years after lucius ) bestowed on hubert plenitudinem potestatis in officio legationis inauditam à seculis . i confesse i do not well understand in what it did consist , that had not been formerly heard of , to whom the pope had committed d vices suas in anglia & scotia ; but it fully proyes that power derived from ⸫ rome was then looked on as a thing newly crept in . but whosoever did first confer it , the matter is not great : certain it is , by it the papall auctority was not a little in time increas't , there being none of the clergy almost to question ought-came from rome , the archbishop , on whom the rest depended , himself operating but as a delegate from thence . 42. to which purpose it may not unfitly be observed , that when the papacy did first attempt the exempting some great monasteries from the jurisdiction of their ordinary , it was e salva primatis reverentia , or , as malmsbury explains it , archiepiscopi tantum nutum in legitimis spectaturus . but however thus carefully penned not to thwart with th' archbishop , being brought hither was taken away by lanfrank , not permitted to be made use of , the abbot finding no other way to regain it but f multorum preces . yet afterward the pope without scruple exempted them not onely from their diocesan , but even such as were under th' archbishops nose , with all pertaining to them , were taken out of his own jurisdiction ; and he who at first preserved others rights , had those houses now at an g easy rate removed from his own . a fact of infinite advantage to the papacy , by which it had persons of learning in all parts , who depending wholy on it , defended what was done to be by one had a power of doing it ; and he who at first did solely h agere vices apostolicas in anglia , was i under no legat , permitted no bul from rome to be made use of in england , but by his approbation , was so far now from taking them away from the bearers , as k private clerks by deputation from thence did sit his superiors in determining differences between him , and others who by strength were taken from his jurisdiction . 43. after which , popes having gained an entrance , found means to reduce the grant of legatus natus to no more then stood with their own liking , by inventing a new sort of legat styled legatus à latere ( l by reason of his near dependance on the popes person ) who employed in matters of concernment , at his being here the power of the former slept : m which distinction of legats seems to me to have had its birth after 1180. first applyed by any of our writers to n iohannes anagninus cardinalis 1189. by hoveden ; which style yet o others who then lived do not give him . of this legat it is that p henry chichley in a letter , yet extant under his own hand , wrote to henry the 5. that be inspection of lawes and chronicles was there never no legat à latere sent in to no lond , and specially in to your rengme of yngland , witoute great and notable cause . and thei whan thei came , after thei had done her legacie abiden but litul wyle , not over a yer , and summe a quarter or ij . monthes as the nedes requeryd : and yet over that he was tretyd with or he cam in to the lond , whon he schold have exercise of his power and how myche schold bee put in execution : an aventure after hee had bee reseyved hee would have used it to largely to greet oppression of your peple : as indeed if he stayed long , he sometimes gained the censure of being q occultus inimicus regni ; but this was not till the popes had brought th' archbishops much under , by laying a necessity on them of receiving the pall from rome , and at the taking of it of making profession de fidelitate & canonica obedientia , that is , had obliged them by oath to defend regalia sancti petri. of which , because i find th' introducing ( not much touched by our writers ) a great means to advance this forraign power , it will not be amisse to say somewhat ; and first of the pall. 44. the pallium ( from whence our english word pall ) was a garment with which the professors of arts , as grammar , rhetorick , musick , might cloath themselves ( as it seems to me by r tertullian they did ) ; yet was held most proper for such as professed philosophy : and therefore when a s begging fellow came to a noble roman palliatus & crinitus , being asked what he was , the man half angry replyed he was a philosopher , & mirari cur quaerendum putasset quod videret : to which the gentleman returned , barbam & pallium , philosophum nondum video . from whence i gather , it was for the most peculiar to them . so t eusebius shewes on heraclas , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 taking the habit of a philosopher , notwithstanding his being a christian , retained it : and lib. 8. cap. 21. at the martyrdom of porphyrius a disciple of pamphilus , he describes that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be a short cloak or pall covering the shoulders . 45. but it seems the primitive christians in wearing of it did attribute some sanctity to the garment ; for u grande pallii beneficium est ( saith tertullian ) sub cujus recogitatu impii mores vel erubescunt : whereupon the x councell of gangra , not an 100. years after , pronounced him anathema used the pallium quasi per hoc habere se justitiam credens , &c. now from the danger of superstition of the one side , and the being especially worne by philosophers of the other , i am apt to think it became in the end proper onely to some bishops , who might challenge it as learned philosophers , yet not at all likely to attribute more to the robe then reasonable ; and in time , either by collation of emperors , or otherwise , appropriated to some particular churches , who having that mark , were after the seats of archbishops for the most part . for though y alcuinus be of opinion the pall is nothing but a distinction between an archbishop and his suffraganes : yet , underfavour , i conceive that must be taken of th' acception of the word in the time he lived ; not as used in st. gregories dayes , who gives z augustine at the bestowing the pall upon him the title of archbishop no more then he doth a syagrius bishop of austun in burgundy ; which town , notwithstanding that guift by st. gregory , was never reputed to have other then an episcopall chair , and suffragan to the archbishop of lions to this day . so that certainly , at first , all that had the pall were not eo nomine archbishops , to whom it became especially proper after the emperor relinquisht it to the popes disposing , who at first no question had a good part in the conferring of it himself . 46. the deed is yet extant by which valentinian bestowed it on the church of ravenna , about the year 430. i know b some , who find not how to deny it , hold this an honourable vestment , such as emperors themselves wore ; which opinion c baronius justly confutes , and rather thinks it forged : yet he , d citing out of e liberatus , that anthemius expell'd the church of constantinople , pallium quod habuit , imperatoribus reddidit , & discessit , gives no glosse how he could return to the emperor his pall and depart , if he had nothing to do with it : and it is manifest , in gregory the greats dayes , that church did not onely prescribe for the use of the pall , but for doing it contrary to the will and opinion of that father . and the same doctor elsewhere f saith , he had dealt apud piissimos dominos , the emperors , to send him anastasius , concesso usu pallii : and afterward being desired by brunichilda to grant it to syagrius , ( of whom before ) he shews his readinesse , g propter quod & serenissimi domini imperatoris prona voluntas est , & concedi haec omnino desider at . so that certainly , at the beginning , if princes did not bestow it , yet it was not done against their wills ; which after-times did in europe solely appropriate to the pope : who yet gave it not against their liking ; as * lucius the 2. sending it to the bishop of winchester , who yet never made use of it , teacheth us . 47. but what this pall imported , or what the receiver had of advantage by it , writers i think do not alwayes agree . h isidorus pelusiota , who writ about the year 430 , is of opinion , the bishop , as a type of christ , wears that cloak of wool , to shew himself imitator of the great shepheard that will bear the strayed sheep on his shoulders . i st. gregory sayes , it signifies humility , justice , &c. i have shew'd before alcuinus his opinion of it . but what soever signification it was at first thought to carry , certainly , the necessity of fetching it from rome was not so urgent , as in these later the papall interest made it esteemed . we do not read that ever laurentius or mellitus received thence the pall ; yet no man doubts of their being as lawfull archbishops as augustine was . k giraldus cambrensis and hoveden agree , the bishops of st. davids in wales did use the pall , till samson , about the time of the saxons , flying from an infection , carryed it with him ; yet neither of them report him to have fetch 't it from rome : nor after the wanting it , did the rest of the bishops there either refuse his consecration , deny obedience to the see , or make profession to any other , before henry the first induced them by force . but to come to the saxons : after paulinus , there are five in the catalogue of york expressely l said to have wanted it , ( amongst which wilfred , that m ruled all the north as his bishoprick ) yet are reputed both archbishops and saints ; and of others in that series it will not be easy to prove they ever used it . albertus the 8. bishop about 767. had it not till the seventh year n accepti episcopatus : nor o adilbaldus or ethelbaldus the 14. anno 895. till the fourth year postquam acceper at episcopatum . an undoubted argument that canon of pelagius , recorded both by p ivo and q gratian , that no metropolitane should defer above three months sending for it to rome , was never received in this church . r gregory the great sayes , it ought not to be given , nisi fortiter postulanti : and the same s father with a councell at rome anno 595. decreed , pro pallio omnino aliquid dare prohibeo . so that in those times the one side perhaps did not much urge the taking of it , nor the other greatly seek after a thing brought small advantage , and was so far to be fetch 't . 48. but after the court of rome began to raise to it self a revenue from other churches , this pallium , that was no other then a distinctive ornament , not to be payed for , began to be set at so immense a rate , that t canutus going to rome 1031. did mediate with iohn the 19 that it might be more easy to his prelats : in which though he had a favourable answer , yet in hen. the 1. his time it was so much , th' archbishop of york could not pay the money , without an u heavy debt . x mat. paris doth intimate as if walter gray , translated from worcester to that see 1215 , had not his pall at lesse then ten thousand pounds : accepto pallio ( saith he ) episcopus memoratus rediit in angliam , obligatus in curia romana de decem millibus librarum estirlingorum ; which was about the silver of 30000l. now , coin being then after the rate of 20d. the ounce . but after times , according to the bishop y of landaffe , reduced it to the certainty , that each bishop payed 5000. duckets for it , every one of the value of 4s. 6d. our money : which yet i do not see how to make agree with the z antiquit. brit. ecclesiae , that speakes onely of 900. aureos ducatos payed by cranmer . 49. but to omit the gain came by the garment ; that certainly was a means of drawing a great obligation from all archbishops to the papacy : for about 1002. a new oath de fidelitate & canonica obedientia was devised , to be tender'd every archbishop at the reception of it . for the more full understanding of which , we are to know , vvilliam the first , after he had settled the kingdome in quiet , wholy possest of it , would not in any a kind acknowledge a farther obedience to rome then his predecessors had ; but maintained the rights of the kingdome in every thing , against the liking of that court in many particulars , barring all men for taking any for pope , but whom he designed ; insomuch as after b gregory the 7. 1084. till 1095. about 11. years , there was no pope acknowledged in england ; denying any to receive letters from thence , but acquainting him with them , and many more ; of which elsewhere : all which being exercised by him , were never questioned during his time , nor while lanfrank lived after him , ( though he hath been ever reputed an holy man. ) but anselme succeeding in his seat , great contentions arose between him and vvilliam the second : the c king with the nobility pressing him , as the usage of the realme , not to depend on rome as of necessity : he , on the other side , d deciating all such customes to be contrary to divinity , right , &c. chose rather to live an exile all that kings time , then any way submit to those customes , had been practis't , never disputed or questioned by any archbishop here before . 50. but , that prince being soon after taken away , and paschalis the 2. succeeding almost at the same time , ( considering , as it seems , by what weak bands forraign bishops were tyed to the papacy , how easy it was for them to fall from it ; that e gregory the 7 th . was not satisfied even with lanfranks carriage in episcopali honore positus , who restrained his obedience to canonum praecepta ; that anselme alone had opposed the whole body of the kingdome ; that every prelat might be neither of his temper or opinions , ) framed an oath , the effect of which you may see in diceto f ann. 1191. & in mat. paris and others , the * full which every archbishop at the reception of the pall was to render . at the tendring this , one in sicily made a scruple of taking it , as that nec ab apostolis post dominum , nec in conciliis inveniri posse statutum ; the like did some g in polonia : to whom the pope answers , as in cap. h significasti , objurgatorily , quasi romanae ecclesiae legem concilia ulla praefixerint . and going on with the designe , whereas at the assuming of this pall by anselme 1095. it was no otherwise then thus , i pallium super altare delatum ab anselmo assumptum est , atque ab omnibus pro reverentia sancti petri suppliciter deosculatum , &c. at the taking of it by raulf 1115. his immediate successor , we find it with this addition , k sicque delatum super altare salvatoris pallium est , & à pontifice inde susceptum , facta prius de fidelitate & canonica obedientia professione . dei●de pro reverentia beati petri ab omnibus deosculatur , &c. which profession being never met with as made by any archbishop of cant. before , but frequently after by such as were his near successors , as l tho. becket , baldwine , &c. we must conclude him to have been the first from whom it hath ever been required . i know ⸫ bellarmine interprets a bishops returning out of schisme 602. and voluntarily by oath promising to live in communion with the pope , to be a swearing of obedience to that chair : but certain there is a difference between obeying and living in communion ; ( of which see cap. 7. n. 4. ) between an oath inforced , and one voluntarily taken . after this ; as wayes to augment the court , many priviledges were annexed to it ; m as that none before his receiving that ornament might convocate councells , make chrisme , dedicate churches , ordain clerks , consecrate●bishops , that being n pontificalis officii plenitudo , till he had it , none to be styled an archbishop ; things added after mens holding a necessity of seeking it , did so much contribute to the papall advantage , both in point of honour and profit . for it is manifest , lanfrank , anselme and raulf did dedicate o churches , p consecrate bishops and abbots , were called q archbishops , whilst they wanted it . 51. now the ice broken , this oath ( at first required onely of archbishops when they took the pall ) was by r gregory the 9 , mutatis mutandis , imposed on abbots and bishops . about 1235. came into england s occulta clausa sub bulla , the t like to which had not been seen , was profered to iohn 23. abbot of st. albans unacquainted with it , when he could not u ab illa obligatione resilire ; who is therefore noted , that x primo invitus & dolens romanorum jugum subiit servitutis , and that y prae omnibus romanorum oppressionibus novis & inauditis coepit molestari , &c. the thing i find of greatest exception is , the obligation injoyning them to visit rome , which being in pursuance of the 26. chapter of the councell of lateran , held onely 20. years before , is censured z damnum , gravamen , praejudicium , injuria , jactura , as that which alter'd the nature of the church , which had been from the foundation libera & ingenua , and was thus brought to serve the ends of the court of rome . truly after this i cannot see how there can be said to have been a free papall councell in europe , when such as it consists of ( being , for the most , bishops and abbots ) come with so high an obligation as an oath to defend the usages of rome , under the title of regaliae sancti petri. in pursuance of which the ⸫ councell of trent did expressely charge all patriarchs , archbishops , bishops , and other , who in future should meet in provinciall synods , that veram obedientiam summo romano pontifici spondeant , & profiteantur . i wish it had exprest what that had been . 52. to return to that i was treating of . this visiting the roman court , however much prest on this monastery of st. albans , yet was ever-excused till 1290. iohn the 3. and 25. abbot was forced to go thither for his confirmation : but because the book is not printed , i will give you my a auctors own words . iohannes de berkamsted , vir religiosus & honestae conversationis , hic in crastino conceptionis beatae & gloriosae virginis mariae , scilieet quinto idus decembris , anno domini mcc . nonagesimo , per viam compromissi de gremio ecclesiae concorditer electus , ad curiam romanam primus omnium abbatum hujus ecclesiae , pro confirmatione electionis suae obtinenda , personaliter accessit , ibique confirmatus est à summo pontifice nicholao ; & à venerabili l. ostiensi episcopo & cardinali apud urbem veterem munus accepit benedictionis ; & sic data maxima pecunia papae , & cardinalibus , & aliis de curia , quam de mercatoribus papae duris conditionibus ex mutuo recepit , ab illa insatiabili curia ●vasit , expletisque negotiis domum redire festinavit , &c. by which we may see who of this house went on this occasion first thither , and why it was so earnestly urged from thence . as for the monastery of st. augustins , by reason of the often contentions with th' archbishop , the monks there were much more prone to yield obedience to rome ( who maintained them for the most against him ) then these other were : yet the first of them i find to have b took this oath was roger the 2. elected abbot 1253. for though the c benediction of robertus de bello 1224. were at rome , where he gained th' abbacy ; yet there being no mention of any oath presented to him then , we must think it came in afterwards . but for the fuller understanding how this visiting the roman church came in , the reader will give me leave a little to digresse . 53. christians in all ages have esteemed it a point of singular piety and devotion , for any ghostly father or doctor to have a care of those to whom they have the relation of being a spirituall superior , either by planting christian religion amongst them , reducing them out of error , or otherwise some engagement on them . saint paul sent for the elders of ephesus to come unto him at miletus , from whom they received those wholesome instructions we read in the d acts of the apostles ; and according to this example there are divers exhortations in the writings and epistles of the fathers . before the year 517. a e councell held at tarragona in spain did ordain , that every bishop , impletis duobus mensibus , se metropolitani sui repraesentet aspectibus , ut ab illo monitis ecclesiasticis instructus , plenius quid observare debeat recognoscat : quod si forte hoc implere neglexerit , in synodo increpatus à fratribus corrigatur . agreeing to which , f iustinian in the year 541. did establish by law , that for the better observance of th' ecclesiastick rules , every archbishop , patriarch , and metropolitan , sanctissimos episcopos sub se constitutos in eadem provincia semel aut secundo per singulos annos ad se convocare . and pope g zachary ann. 743. in a councell at rome , omnes episcopi qui hujus apostolicae sedis ordinationi subjacebunt , qui propinqui sunt , annuè idibus mensis maii sanctorum principis apostolorum petri & pauli liminibus praesententur , omnioccasione seposita , &c. * after which charls the great did by law ordain , ut unusquisque presbyter per singulos annos episcopo suo rationem ministerii sui reddat , tam de fide catholica , quam de baptismo , atque de omni or dine ministerii sui . 54. about which time boniface an englishman , the popes legat in germany , and archbishop of mentz , in a councell held in germany ( the decrees whereof he sent to cutbert then in the seat of canterbury ) h declaring how great the care of the metropolitan ought to be of those under him , shews how every presbyter should once a year in lent give an account to his bishop , who was to instruct him , and with such things as he could not correct himself , to acquaint th' archbishop in a synod ; vt si sacerdotes vel plebes à lege dei deviasse viderim , & corrigere non potuerim , fideliter semper sedi apostolicae & vicario sancti petri ad emendandum indicaverim : sic enim , ni fallor , omnes episcopi debent metropolitano , & ipse romano pontifici , si quid de corrigendis populis apud eos impossibile est , notum facere , & sic alieni fient à sanguine animarum perditarum . cutbert , according to this advise , doth appoint the proceedings of the bishop to be to the archbishop , in the same words he had received it from boniface ; but i passeth no farther to the pope : an undoubted argument , it was not then usuall in england . i have touched before , the conqueror did suffer no other correspondency with rome then what he liked ; paschalis the 2. quarrell'd with hen. the k first , that nullus inde clamor : to prevent which , this visiting rome was at the very first inserted into the oath of an archbishop , who being head of the province , all the rest might have the same dependance . 55. but because this did not reach such houses and persons as were exempt from the jurisdiction of th' ordinary , acknowledging no superior but the pope ; the councell of lateran under innocentius 3. 1215. l provided , such as pertained immediately to his rule should present themselves before him for confirmation , si commode potest fieri ; which was here misliked ▪ but this councell speaking not home , in that it tolerated the sending m personas idoneas , per quas diligens inquisitio super electionis processu & electis possit haberi , &c. to make th' excuse , ( and being it self ( as i shall shew hereafter ) not much regarded till gregory the 9 , nephew to innocentius , inserted it for the most into the decretalls , and framed , as i have said , an oath too , for the stricter obligation unto him ; ) it was again urged by alexander the 4. n ut quilibet qui in abbatem exemptum extun● eligeretur , romanam curiam adiret confirmandus & benedicendus : which the same author styles o statutum enorme and cruentissimum . and whereas some , finding the burthen of running to rome , had obtained as a priviledge from thence , p ut non teneantur sedem apostolicam usque ad certa tempora visitare , contra formam praestiti juramenti , ex quo illud evenit inconveniens , quod apostolicae sedis dignitas rarius visitatur , in derogationem reverentiae quae ab omnibus debetur eidem , &c. the same pope therefore revokes all manner of such concessions to whomsoever formerly granted . in which year , or perhaps 1258 , simon ( elected abbot of st. edmundsbury ) confirmed by alexander the 4. the 22 october , is * noted to have been primus exemptorum in anglia ad curiam romanam pro sua confirmatione vocatus . 56. yet the court of rome , however thus earnest at first , ( either perceiving it ill relisht abroad , and that forcing sodain mutations in religion not to be of so good consequence ) in her prosecution was more moderate . q on roger the xxiiii abbot of st. albons 1263. i do not find at all prest ; his successor iohn the xxv , i have shew'd , was the first went thither for it . so likewise r philip abbot of westminster 1258. obtained the favour to stay at home , and richard ware his successor fetcht his consecration first thence . but after the court was fully in possession of what turned so much to her advantage , an excuse was s hardlier admitted ; and if any did obtain the favour to stay at home , he payed a good round summe for it . it is remembred , michael abbot of st. augustins , elected 1375 , did give papae & cardinalibus ut possit benedici in anglia 183l-02 -02s-06 -06d. and accordingly some other . the papacy having by these wayes abated the power of th' archbishop , found it easy , his lett removed , to bring the rest of the clergy wholy to depend upon it , by raising whom it liked to oppose that prelat , who were bound to maintain the papall auctority which supported them in what they did , and wringing the investitures ( so far as lay in their power ) out of the hands of princes , to interest the pope and his party in severall particulars , under the notion of being matters ecclesiasticall ; by which he brought the elections of bishops solely to the convent , excluding both king and others , and became as patron of most spirituall promotions in england : which t forme he yet laboured in the end to break too , by reducing all to his own gift . for the understanding of which , as not impertinent to that i treat of , it will be necessary to look a little higher . 57. when any place became destitute of a bishop , it is certain , in the primitive church , the lay as well as the clergy did concur in nominating who were to succeed in the charge ; that he who was to have th' inspection of all , might not be brought into it with the repugnancy of any . and this custome was so generall , as u st. cyprian and 36. bishops more , meeting in councell about the year 255. writing to certain in spain , spake as if it did descend de divina auctoritate . it is not to be doubted but this course gave sometime opportunity to ambitious and contentious spirits ( as x st. augustine calls them ) of troubling the churches peace : and therefore y the councell of laodicea before the year 360. did appoint the elections to priesthood not to be * by multitudes ; and divers holy bishops desiring peace might continue after them in their flock , were carefull or ever they dyed to know the person was to succeed in their chair . severus bishop of * mela in africa had exprest to the clergy onely , whom he thought fit to have been admitted after him to his episcopacy . this was likely to have bred some stir , in respect the people were not acquainted with it ; had not z st. augustine by his pains and wisdome allayed the dispute : to avoid which , that good man nominated one eradius for his successor , whom the people with loud acclamations approved . 58. this concurrence or joyning of the lay with the clergy ( that qui praefuturus est omnibus ab omnibus eligatur , as a leo speaks ) in choice of bishops , i do no way question to have continued in the church till after charles the great , in whose capitulars we find , b episcopi per electionem cleri & populi eligantur ; and to have been sent hither by gregory the great , who in c his epistles makes often mention of it , as we do find d steps of it in our own historians . yet certainly , however there might be some formalities of the people , the chief of elections here ever depended on the prince ; as may be gathered by that speech of wolstan to the confessors tombe , e that he had compell'd him to take the pastorall staffe . and edward the 3. wrote to clement the 6. f cathedrales — ecclesias progenitores nostri dudum singulis vacationibns earundem personis idoneis jure suo regio libere conferebant , & postmodum , ad rogatum & ad instantiam dictae sedis , sub certis modis & conditionibus concesserunt ; quod electiones fierent in dictis ecclesiis per capitula earundem , &c. so likewise in the parliament the 50. ed. 3. the commons shew , the king and great men were formerly in peaceable possession of giving preferments in holy church . but i will give the words themselves , because i will not erre in the translation . g le roy & les grandes — feurent en peisible possession de doner les esvesches & les benefices de seint esglise , come le fest le roy st. edward , qe dona l' evesche de worcestre a seint wolston ; & puts par devotion des roys fust , & par la courte de rome conferme , qe les cathedralx esglises averoient frank election de lour prelatz , solonc la ley de dieu & de seint esglise , ent ordeigne perpetuelment a durer , &c. and a little h after , d'engleterre soleient doner eveschez & autres grantz dignites trestouz , come il fait aujourdui esglises parochiels , & le pape ne se medlast de doner nul benefice deinz le royalme tanqez deinz brief temps passe , &c. 59. and this to have been likewise the custome in france , the complaint of the french ambassador to innocentius 4 tus assures us . i non est multum temporis ( saith he ) quod reges francorum conferebant omnes episcopatus in camera sua , &c. and our writers do wholy look upon the placing lanfrank in canterbury as k the kings act , though it were not l without th' advise of alexander the 2. neither did m anselme ever make scruple of refusing the archbishoprick , because he was not chosen by the monks of canterbury : and in that letter of them to paschalis the 2. 1114. though they write raulf in praesentia gloriosi regis henrici electus à nobis & clero & populo ; yet whosoever will note the n series of that election , cannot see it to have been other then the kings act ; insomuch as our o writers use often no other phrase then the king gave such preferments , &c. and whilst things stood thus , there was never any interposing from rome , no question who was lawfully chosen : the popes therefore did labour to draw this from the princes medling with , as much as was possible . some essay might be 1108. at the settling investitures , for then anselme p writ to paschalis , rex ipse in personis eligendis nullatenus propria utitur voluntate , sed religiosorum se penitus committit consilio . but this , as the practice proved afterwards , was no more but that he would take the advise of his bishops , or other of the clergy : for , as q diceto well observes , our king did in such sort follow the ecclesiastick canons , as they had a care to conserve their own rights . the ●ittest way therefore for the pope to get in was , if there should happen any dissensions amongst themselves , that he , as a moderator , a judge , or an arbitrator , might step in . 60. about the conquest , an opportunity was offer'd on the contentions between the two archbishops for primacy ; in which canterbury stood on r the bulls ( true or false ) of former popes , that had as a great patriarch made honourable mention of them . when they were both 1071. s with alexander the 2. by his advise it was referr'd to a determination in england ; and accordingly 1072. wm. the first with his bishops made some settlement , which by them of york was ever stumbled at , pretending the king t out of reason of state sided with canterbury . but this brake into no publick contest till 1116. thurstan elected to york , u endeavored at rome to divert the making any profession of subjection to cant. but failing in th' attempt ( that court not liking to fall into a contest it was not probable to carry ) resigned his archbishoprick , spondens regi & arch●epi●copo , se dum viveret non reclamaturum : yet after the * clergy of york sued to the pope for his restitution , which produced that letter from paschalis the 2. in his behalf to hen. the 1. is in eadmerus ; wherein he desires , if there were any difference between the two sees , it might be discust in his presence . which was not hearkned to ; but calixtus the 2. y in a councell by him held 1119. at reimes ( of which before ) ( the english bishops not arrived , the kings agent protesting against it , the archdeacon of cant. telling the pope that jure he could not do it ) consecrated him archbishop of york : upon which henry prohibits him all return into his dominions . and in the enterview soon after at gisors , though calixtus earnestly laboured th' admitting him to his see , the king would by no means hearken to it . so the pope left the businesse as he found it , and thurstan to prove other wayes to gain th' archbishoprick . 61. who thereupon became an actor in the peace about that time treated between england and france : in which his comportments were such , that z proniorem ad sese recipiendum regis animum inflexit ; so as upon the popes letters he was afterwards restored , a ea dispositione , ut nullatenus extra provinciam eboracensem divinum officium celebraret , donec ecclesiae cantuariensi , &c. satisfaceret . this i take to be the first matter of episcopacy that ever the pope ( as having a power elsewhere of altering what had been here settled ) did meddle with in england . it is true , whilst they were raw in christianity , he did sometimes recommend pastors to this church ; so b vitalian did theodore : and farther shewed himself sollicitous of it , by giving his fatherly instructions to the english bishops to have a care of it ; so did formosus or some other by his letters 904. upon which edward th' elder congregated a synod , wherein five new bishops were constituted , by which an inundation of paganisme ready to break in on the west for want of pastors was stopt . but it is apparent , this was done not as having dominion over them ; for he so left the care of managing the matter to their discretion , as he did no way interesse himself in it farther then advise . 62. a meeting of english bishops 1107. at canterbury , or ( as florentius wigorniensis stiles it ) a councell restored the abbot of ramsey deposed 1102. c jussu apostolico , or , as eadmerus , d juxta mandatum domini papae . it is manifest , this command from rome to be of the same nature those i mentioned of e calvins , or at the most no other then the intercession of the patriarch of a more noble see , to an inferior , that by his means had been converted : for his restitution ( after the reception of the papall letters ) seems to have been a f good while defer'd ; so that what past at rome did not disannull his deprivation here , till made good in england , as at a time when nothing thence was put in execution but by the regall approbation ; as the pope himself g complained to the king. but after the church of rome , with th' assistance of th' english clergy , had obtained all elections to be by the chapters of the cathedralls , upon every scruple she interposed herself . 63. the greatest part of the convent of london 1136. h chose anselme abbot of st. edmundsbury for their bishop , contrary to the deans opinion and some few of the chanons , who appealed to rome ; where th' election 1138 was disannulled , the bishoprick by the pope recommended to winchester , his then , or rather soon after , legat ; which so remained till 1141. this is the first example of any bishop chosen , received and in possession of a church in this kingdome , whose election was after quash't at rome , and the sentence obeyed here ; as it is likewise of any commendam on papall command in the church of england : all which seems to have past with the kings concurrence . 64. for to i deprive vvilliam elected some whatafter archbishop of york , where he did not joyn , was not so easy : this man chosen 1142 by the greater part of the chapter , after five years sute in the court of rome , ⸫ st. bernard opposing him , had in the end his election annull'd by eugenius 3. in a councell held at reims ; the chanons of york exhorted to chuse another ; some of which made choice of henry murdack , then as it seems with the pope : who coming as archbishop into england , was not suffer'd to enter on his archbishoprick , and excommunicating hugh de puzat , a person preferr'd by vvilliam , was himself by him excommunicated , no intermission of divine service in the city admitted ; and henry's means to gain his see was by drawing the bishop of duresme , carlisle , the king of scots , and , by the popes advise , this very hugh by sweetnesse to his party , and in the end by the kings son ( whom it seems he promised to get advanced to the crown by the power of rome ) making his peace with stephen , who soon after employed him thither on that errand . and this i take to be the second english election was ever here annull'd by papall auctority . 65. here i may observe , that at first , when ever the pope made voyd an election , he did not take upon him to appoint another in the place vacant : but either sent to the clergy of the same church to chuse another , as those to whom it appertained ; so did eugenius 3. to york when this k h. murdack was chosen , innocentius 3. when l stephen langton ; or else the bishoprick lay vacant , as m london after anselme from 1139. to 1141. but elections being with much struggling settled wholy in the clergy , and innocentius 3. having * by definitive sentence excluded the english bishops from having any part in that of th' archbishop of canterbury , they becoming wholy appropriated to the chapters of cathedralls , the pope began to creep in , and n ex concessa plenitudine ecclesiasticae potestatis , as he speaks , without any formality of choice , to confer not onely bishopricks , but other ecclesiastick promotions , within the precincts of others dioceses , and by that means to fill the fat benefices of the nation . the first archbishop of canterbury promoted by this absolute power of the church of rome seems to have been richard 1229. o non electo , sed dato ad archiepiscopatum . 66. the p french agent , in his remonstrance to innocentius 4 tus , attributes the beginning of these collations to innocent the 3d. and i have not read that either paschalis the second , gelasius , calixtus , or innocent 2. though forced to live sometimes out of rome , did ever exercise auctority that way . but i will give it in his own words . certe non multum temporis clapsum est , ex quo dominus papa alexander , persecutionis cogente incommodo , venit in franciam , confugiens ad subsidium inclytae recordationis regis ludovici patris regis philippi ; à quo benigne susceptus est , & stetit ibi diu ; & forte vivunt aliqui qui viderunt eum : ipse tamen in nullo gravavit ecclesiam gallicanam , ut nec unam solam praebendam aut aliud beneficium ipse papa dederit ibi , sed nec aliquis praedecessor suus , nec multietiam de successoribus dederunt in sua auctoritate beneficium aliquid , usque ad tempora domini innocentii 3. qui primus assumpsit sibi jus istud in tempore suo : revera dedit multas praebendas , & similiter post ipsum dominus honorius & dominus gregorius simili modo fecerunt ; sed omnes praedecessores vestri , ut publice dicitur , non dederunt tot beneficia ut vos solus dedistis , &c. 67. in what year th' ambassador from france made this complaint , is not set down : but q mat. paris in his historia minori makes mention of it as done in or about 1252. diebus sub eisdem , episcopo lincolniens● computante , compertum & probatum est quod iste papa , scilicet innocentius quartus , plures redditus extortos ad suam contulit voluntatem , quam omnes ejus praedecessores ; prout manifeste patet in lugubri querimonia quam reposuerunt franci coram papa pro suis intolerabilibus oppressionibus , quae redacta est in scriptum epistolae admodum prolixae , quae sic incipit , dicturus quod injunctum est mihi , &c. quaere epistolam , &c. by which it appears , that great liberty the papacy took in conferring ecclesiastick preferments within the dioceses of others , took its rise from pope innocent , and , as it seems to me , not at the very beginning of his time ; for 1199. r gelardus archdeacon of st. davids coming from rome , quia idem g. menevensis ecclesiae in curia romana se dicebat electum , hoc ipsum cassavit archiepiscopus , & alium-sacravit canonice electum ; though he after bestowed on him a church of 25. marks : and this in a case the pope had so earnestly espoused , as he wrote to the bishops of lincoln , duresme and ely , si archiepiscopus cantuariae saepe dictum gilardum consecrare differret , ipsi apostolica authoritate freti illum consecrare non differrent : which yet th' archbishop , as against the english liberty , did not doubt to oppose , and disannul . 68. but thus it continued not long ; for s honorius , the immediate successor to innocentius 3 us , shewing such as served th' apostolick see , and resided with it , were worthy congruis beneficiis honorari , and were therefore possest of divers both in england and other parts , which they did administer with so great care , quod non minus beneficiantibus quam beneficiatis utiliter est provisum ; unde , quia nonnunquam beneficiatis hujusmodi decedentibus , beneficia quae obtinuerant , inconsultis hiis ad quos eorum donatio pertinebat ▪ aliis successive collata , perpetuo illis ad quos pertinent videbantur amitti , propter quod etiam murmurabant plurimi , & alii se difficiliores ad conferendum talibus beneficia exhibebant : nos volentes super hoc congruum remedium adhibere , ne cuiquam sua liberalitas sit dampnosa , per quam potius meruit gratiam & favorem , statuimus , ut clericis ecclesiae romanae , vel aliis ytalicis , qui praebendas vel ecclesias , seu alia ecclesiastica beneficia in anglia obtinent vel obtinuerint à modo decedentibus , praebend●e vel ecclesiae , seu alia beneficia nequaquam à nobis vel alio illa vice alicui conferantur , sed ad illos libere redeant ad quos illorum donatio dinoscitur pertinere , &c. dat. lateran . ⸫ quarto kalend. martii , pontificatus nostri anno quinto . 69. yet neither this , nor the renewing of it by gregory the 9. with a speciall indulgence t directed venerabilibus fratribus universis archiepiscopis & episcopis , a● dilectis fil ▪ is abbatibus , & aliis ecclesiarum praelatis per angliam constitutis — ut si quando ad vos literae apostolicae pro beneficiandis hujusmodi de caetero emanarunt , ad provisionem ipsorum inviti non teneamur , nisi de hac indul gentia plenam fecerint mentionem . dat. lateran . ⸫ 15. kalend. maii , pontificatus nostri anno 4 to . , &c. could quiet the english , or keep them from that confederation in mat. paris 1231. beginning , u tali episcopo & tali capitulo , vniversitas eorum qui magis volunt mori quam à romanis confundi , &c. which the popes , by wisdome , and joyning the regall auctority with their spirituall , sound means to bring to nought ; and pursuing the papall interest without regarding what had past from them , gave the kingdome occasion 1241. to x observe , that in onely three years otho had remained legat here , he bestowed more then 300. spirituall promotions , ad fuam vel papae voluntatem ; the pope having y contracted ( as the report went ) with the romans , to confer to none but their children and allies the rich benefices here , especially of religious houses , ( as those perhaps he had most power over ) and to that effect had writ to the bishops of canterbury and salisbury , ut trecentis romanis in primis beneficiis vacantibus providerent . so that in the councell at lions 1245. they complain of these exorbitances , z and shew the revenues the italians received in england not to be lesse then 60 thousand marks ; of which more a hereafter : and in the year following 1246. reiterated their griefs to innocentius 4 tus . b quod italicus italico succedit . which yet was with little successe : for the popes having ( as we have heard ) first settled all elections in the ecclesiasticks , and after upon severall occasions , on the submitting of the english to his desires , bestowed the benefices in this and other kingdomes on his dependents , c iohn the 22. ( or , as d some seem to think , clement the 5. his immediate predecessor ) endeavored the breaking of elections by cathedralls and convents , reserving the free donation of all preferments to himself alone . 70. from whence proceeded the reiterated complaints ● against papall provisions , in the parliaments of edward the 3. and ric. the 2. for this kingdome never received his attempts in that kind : to which purpose the history e of iohn devenish is remarkable . the abbot of st. augustines dying 1346. the 20. ed. 3. the convent by the kings leave chose vvm. kenington ; but clement the 6. by provision bestowed the abbacy on iohn devenish , whom the king did not approve of , yet came thither armed with papall auctority . the prior and convent upon command absolutely denyed him entrance , ingressum monasterii in capite denegando ; who thereupon returned to avignon . the businesse lying two years in agitation , the king in the end , for avoyding expences and other inconveniences , f ex abundanti concessit ut , si idem iohannes posset obtinere à summo pontifice quod posset mutare stylum suae creationis ●ive provisionis , scilicet non promoveri abbatia praedicta ratione donation●s vel provisionis apostolicae , sed ratione electionis capituli hujus loci , illa vice annueret , & suis temporalibus gaudere permitteret : sed quidem hujusmodi causa coram ipso summo pontifice proposita , concludendo dixit , se malle cedere pontificio , quam suum decretum taliter revocare , &c. which so afflicted the poor man , as the grief killed him on st. iohn baptists eve 1348. without ever entring the abby ; and the dispute still continuing , the pope 1349. wrote to the king , g ne rex impediret , aut impediri permitteret promotos à curia per bullas acceptare beneficia sibi taliter incumbentia . to which his mary answer'd . quod rex bene acceptaret provisos clericos qui esse●t bonae conditionis , & qui digni essent promoveri , & alios non . 71. but the year following 1350. the 25. ed. 3. the h commons meeting in parliament complain with great resentment of these papall grants , shewing the court of rome had reserved to it self both the collation of abbeys , priories , &c. as of late in generall all the dignities of england , and prebends in cathedrall churches , &c. upon which the statute of provisors was in that parliament enacted ; which was the leader to those other statutes , 27 , and 38. ed. 3. i the 48. ed. 3. 1374. the treaty between ed. the 3. and gregory the xi , was concluded after two years agitation , wherein it was expressely agreed , quod papa de caetero reservationibus beneficiorum minime uteretur , &c. notwithstanding which , the commons the next parliament prefer'd a petition , shewing k all the benefices of england would not suffice the cardinalls then in being , the * pope having by the addition of xii . new ones raised the number to xxx . which was usually not above xii . in all ; and therefore they desire it may be ordained and proclaimed , that neither the pope nor cardinalls have any procurator or collector in england , sur peine de vie & de membre , &c. yet the inconveniences still continuing , 3. ric. 2. produced that k statute is in the print : i shall not here repeat otherwise , then that the commons in the roll , seem to lay the beginning of these excesses no higher then clement the 5. 72. by these arts , degrees and accessions , the church of rome grew by little and little to that immensenesse of opinion and power it had in our nation ; which might in some measure ( whilst it was exercised by connivence onely , upon the good correspondency the papacy held with our kings and church , ) be tolerated , and the kingdome at any time by good lawes redresse the inconveniences it susteined . but that which hath made the disputes never to be ended , the parties not to be reconciled , is an affirmation that christ commanding peter to feed his sheep , did with that give him so absolute a power in the church , ( and derived the like to his successors bishops of rome , ) as without his assent no particular church or kingdome could reform it self : and for that he as a bishop cannot be denied to have as much power as others from christ , and may therefore in some sense be said to be l christs vicar , to appropriate it onely to the pope , and draw thence a conclusion that jure divino he might and did command in all particulars vice christi . and though no other church in the christian world doth agree with the roman in this interpretation ; though historians of unquestioned sincerity have , as we have ( in some measure ) heard , in their own ages deliver'd when and how these additions crept in , and by what oppositions gained ; that our princes have , with th' advise of the lay and clergy , ever here moderated th' exorbitances of the papacy in some particular or other , and likewise reformed this church ; though the stipulations between our kings and rome have not been perpetuall , but temporary , not absolute , but conditionall , as is to be seen in that past between alexander the 3. and hen. the 2. viz. m juravit quod ab alexandro summo pontifice , & ab catholicis ejus successoribus non recederet , quamdiu ipsum sicut regem catholicum habuerint ; that the english bishops being excommunicated by the pope n might not take an oath of obedience to his commands , quia regni consuetudines impugnabat ; though he did never exercise any authority here , but according to such stipulations , contracts and agreements with our princes , as the lawes permitted ; and therefore when he sent hither a legat à latere , ⸫ he was tretyd with or he cam in to the lond , whon he schold have exercise of his power , and how myche schold bee put in execution : an aventure after he had bee reseyved , he whold have used it to largely , to greet oppression of your peple , &c. as the archbishop wrote to hen. 5. as i have shewed numb . 53. 73. though the lawyers of the kingdome do o constantly affirm , as the law and custome of the realm , the kings courts never to have carried regard to any forraign excommunication , and if any such came from rome , p not to be put in execution , but by allowance first had : to which effect it is remembred , the bishops of london and norwich having publish't in their dioceses the popes excommunication of hugh earl ( as it seems ) of chester , without the privity of hen. the 2. or his chief iusticiar , the kings writ issued out in this manner ; q londoniensis & norwicensis episcopi sint in misericordia regis , & summoneantur per ficecomites & bedellos , ut sint r contra iusticias regis , ad rectum faciendum regi & iusticiis ejus de eo quod , contra statuta de clarendone , interdixerunt ex mandato papae terram comitis hugonis , & excommunicationem quam dominus papa in ipsum fecerat per suas parochias divulgaverunt sine licentia regis . this however contracted in hoveden 1165. and in s paris 1164. yet the difference is such as may deserve a remembrance . it seems to me , what our kings claimed , not to be altogether unlike the t exequatur of naples , observed to this day in that kingdome , notwithstanding all contests from rome . 74. neither did the crown ever relinquish this right , not at the peace after beckets death , when u henry the 2. assented to quit no other then consuetudines quae introductae sunt tempore suo ; which it is manifest this was not , as appears by x eadmerus . it is farther observable , that by the common laws ( that is y the common custome of this realm ) the * sentence of the archbishop is valid in england , and to be allowed in the kings courts , though controuled by the pope : and to shew our princes had no regard to anything of this nature from thence , other then such a complying with a reverend prelat as i have formerly mentioned did admit , it may not here be unfitly inserted what z froissard writes of edward the third , with whom the flemings joyned against the french ; upon which , ( but i shall deliver it in his own words ) adonc le roy de frances ' en complaignit au pape * clement sixieme , qui getta une sentence d' excommuniement si horible , qu'il n' estoit nul prestre qui asast celebrer le divin service : de quoy les flamens envoyerent grande complainte au roy d' engleterre ; lequel pour les appaiser , leur manda , que la primiere fois qu'il rappasseroit la mer , il leur ammeneroit des prestres de son pais qui leur chanteroient la messe , vousist le pape ou non ●ar il estoit bien privilegié de ce faire : & par ce moyen s' appaiserent les flamens , &c. as for the priviledge here spoken of , that can be no other then the obligation all kings owe unto god , for seeing his word sincerely taught them live under their protection , without the disturbance of any . 75. in which kind ours have been so far from yieldding obedience to the papall attempts , as edward the first could not be induced to spare the life of one brought a a bull from the pope , might have made some disturbance , but by his abjuring the realm ; as his grandchild edward the 3. did b cause some to suffer for the same offence . and on occasions our kings have prohibited all entercourse with rome ; c denied their bishops going thither so much as for confirmation , but the metropolitans , if need were , should by the kings writ be charged to confirm them ; d commanded their subjects not to rely on any should come from thence , affirming , quod in regnum nostrum nec propter negotium nostrum nec vestrum ullatenus intrabit ad terram nostram destruendam . yet notwithstanding so notorious a truth , back't with so many circumstances , grounded upon unquestioned monuments of antiquity , hath not been received ; but the bare affirmation , christ by pasceoves meas intended peter , and by consequence the pope , to be the generall pastor of the world , and the meaning of those words to be , that he should e regio more imperare , hath so far prevailed with some , as to esteem the standing for the rights of the kingdome , the laws and customes of the nation , to be a departing from the church catholick ; and to esteem no lesse then hereticks those , who defending that which is their own from th' invasion of another , will not suffer themselves to be led hood-winkt , to think the preservation of their proper liberty is a leaving christ , his church , or the catholick faith . 76. i dare boldly say , whoever will without partiality look back , shall find the reverence yielded from this church to rome for more then a thousand years after christ , to have been no other then the respect of love , not of duty , and popes rather to consulere then imperare ; their dictats to have been of the same nature f the german princes were of old , auctoritat● suadendi magis quam jubendi potestate ; never requiring a necessity of obedience eo nomine that they came from rome , but for that they were just and reasonable : neither did the pope send any agent hither to see them put in execution ; but th' archbishop , according to the exigent of times , receiving his wholesome advises , caused such as he held of them did conduce to the good of the english church to be observed . so theodore g received those of pope martin , but h did not them concerning wilfred , from agatho . when alexander the 2. had exempted the i abbot of st. edmunds-bury from the jurisdiction of the bishop of norwich , lanfrank took the act from the abbot : and gregory the 7. is so far from using commands in the cause , as he onely earnestly intreats the archbishop he would stop the bishop of norwich from molesting the said abbot ; yet himself as it seems did not restore the bull of immunity to him during that popes life . ( but of this before . ) in the year 1070. on the kings desire in a councell at windsor , k age●●icus bishop of the south-saxons is degraded , and his bishoprick confer'd on stigandus : alexander the 2. not approving what had past , l writes to the king , this cause seemed to him non ad plenum tractata , ideoque sicut in canonibus cautum est , in pristinum locum debere restitui judicavimus ; deinde , causam ejus , juxta censuram canonicae traditionis diligenter retractandam & definiendam , praedicto fratri nostro archiepiscopo lanfranco commisimus . it is certain ( however some writers might upon this or for ● other causes think his degradation to have been non canonice ) those times did not interpret this ( though writ with so great earnestnesse ) for other then advise or intercession , not as of a person had an absolute power of commanding in the businesse ; for we never read of any proceedings upon it , not lanfrank at all ever to meddle in the case , that he ever esteemed m stigand a lawfull bishop epist. 27 , 28. who in the year 1075. n being in a councell at london , according to the decrees of it , removed his episcopall chair from selsey to chichester , of which he o died bishop 1087. without being at all , for what appears , questioned or disturbed after the first grant of it . divers examples of the like nature occur too long to be repeated , where the king or p his chief iustice prohibit the papall precepts from being put in execution : and it is agreed by lawyers , that not the command , but the constant obedience , is it which denotes a right of commanding ; and in cases of this nature prohibentis potior est condito , one example in the negative , when the thing is stood upon , being of more weight then twenty by compliance in the affirmative . 77. it is probable , neither the king nor the bishops would introduce any new matter of great concernment into this church , without the privity of so great a doctor , patriarch of a see , from which their auncestors had received the first principles of christian religion ; but it is manifest , what past , ( if he were acquainted with it ) was by their own auctority , not his . when off a intended the erecting of litchfield into an archbishoprick , he did it by a councell at calcuith : lambertus ( as what he approved not ) producing q crebra sedis apostolicae & vetera & nova edicta against it , yet the thing proceeded . lucius the 2 ⸫ went so far in his intentions to raise winchester to an archiepiscopall chair , as he sent the pall to the bishop : yet it being not approved here ( as the event shews ) that town never yet had the honour . henry the first having in his r lawes appointed how a bishop , presbyter , monk , deacon , &c. should suffer , committing homicide , concludes , si quis ordinatum occidat , velproximum suum , exeat de patria sua , & romam adeat , & papam , & consilium ejus faciat ; de adulterio , vel fornicatione , vel * nunnae concubitu similiter poeniteat . where it is observable , the king ordains the penance , permits the delinquents peregrination to rome , to receive from the pope ( as from a great doctor of the church ) spirituall counsell , which else he was not admitted to seek ; for t peregrina judicia modis omnibus submovemus ; and again , u ibi semper causa agatur , ubi crimen admittitur . 78. vvilliam the first ( who began his expedition against harald by the counsell of alexander the 2. and received a x banner from him ) minding the deposition of th' archbishop of canterbury , procured the pope to send certain ecclesiasticks hither to joyn in the action , as likewise soon after for determining the question of precedency between canterbury and york ; upon which there grew an opinion , y archiepiscopum cantuariensem à nullo hominum , nisi à solo papa , judicari posse vel damnari , nec ab aliquo cogi pro quavis calumnia cu●quam , eo excepto , contra suum velle respondere . this no doubt was promoted by th' archbishops , as what exempted them from all home jurisdiction , the bishops in generall did after think in some sort to introduce ; and thereupon put in this petition in parliament z 18. ed. 3. qe pleise a roy , en maintenance del estat de seint esglise , graunter & ordeiner en cest parlement , qe nul ercevesque ou evesque ●oit desormez , arreynez , ne empes●hez devaunt ses iusticos , en cause criminele , par quecunque voye , de si come sur tiele cause nulle alme ne les poet juger , si noun le pape seulement . but to this the answer is no other then , il est avis , qe en cause de crime , nul ercevesque ou evesque soit empesche devant les iustices , si le roy ne le commande especialment tant qe autre remedie soit ordeinez : which he did likewise confirm by charter there registred , and as a walsingham hath truly recorded . 79. this opinion , though b new to the english , questionlesse incouraged anselme to oppose the king in many particulars , and popes to go farther ; as to claim princes should not confer investitures , nor define matters of episcopacy , &c. then to bestow preferments within this kingdome , at first by consent , and with the limitation no italian to succeed another , then to reserve to themselves the collation of all benefices ; of which before . to conclude this ; whosoever will without prejudice weigh the reformation of england by hen. the 8. edward the 6. and more especially queen elizabeth in the point of supremacy , must grant these princes did not assume to themselves any thing , but such particulars as the court of rome had in a long series of time incroached in on the crown and english church . if at any time our auncestors styled the pope princeps episcoporum , it was in no other sense then they did ▪ st. peter princeps apostolorum ; by which what principality they intended him , we cannot better understand then by the saxon , who renders it c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 apostola , the elder of the apostles . if they called him successor or vicarius pet●i , they were not alone appropriated to him , for d petrus blesensis and others give the bishop of york the same titles ; and the bish. of bath , who had a church dedicated to st. peter , he bids remember quia petri vicarius estis . so did they likewise in some sense call kings e christs vicars , as well as bishops . if at any time they gave the pope the title of f head of the church , it was , as being the first bishop , he was held to be , as st. bernard tells us , g in beneficam causam ; as they h termed oxford the fountain and mother of our christian faith . i cannot therefore but with a * late writer , that sayes england had a known subjection to rome acknowledged even by our laws , ever from the conversion of our country under st. gregory , had expressed in what particulars that subjection did consist , what those laws are , and where to be found . the truth is , as there is no doubt our auncestors in former times would not have joyned with the synod of gap , in causing so ⸪ disputable ambiguous a question as that the pope is antichrist to have been taught as the faith of the english church ; so there is no question , but it hath been ever the tenet of it , pontificem romanum majorem aliquam jurisdictionem non habere sibi à deo collatam in sacrâ scripturâ in hoc regno angliae , quam alium quemvis externum episcopum : which our ⸫ historians do mention as what proceeded from the constitutions of the church and assent of emperors , not as of a thing in it self juris divini : insomuch as , 80. that proposition , i when it was propounded 1534. in henry the 8 ths time in convocation , all the bishops without exception , ( and of others onely one doubted , and four placed all ecclesiastick power in the pope , ) both the universities , and most of the monasteries and collegiat churches of england , approved & avowed as the undoubted opinion of the church of this nation in all ages . neither can i see how it can be otherwise : for if the church of canterbury k were omnium nostrum mater communis sub sponsi sui iesu christi dispositione , if it were mater omnium anglicanarum ecclesiarum , & suo post deum proprio laetatur pastore ; that is , if th' archbishop had no mediate spirituall superior but christ & god ; if the power the pope exercised over him within this realm were l volu●tate & beneficio , gained , as i have shewed , by little & little , voluntarily submitted unto ; it could be no other then jure humano : and then it must be granted , the church of england could not hold any necessity of being in subjection to the see or church of rome jure divino ; as it is manifest they did not , in that they m sometimes acknowleded no pope , n otherwhiles shewed an intent of departing from his union , and the bishops as well as lay lords advised anselm , o vrbani obedientiam abijcere , subjectionis jugum excutere , &c. neither could the church of england be any way possible guilty of schism , adhering to their ghostly superior next and immediate under christ iesus . as for the temporall profits the court of rome received hence , though the denying them can be no just cause of such a spirituall imputation , especially on privat men ; yet certainly who will examin their beginning , as he shall find it to have been by the bounty or permission of our princes , so upon search he will perceive the kingdome went no farther then the common law , the precedent of former times , and such an exigency did force them to : of which therefore i shall adde a word or two . chap. iv. of the payments to the papacy from england . the vast summes the court of rome did of late years upon severall occasions export out of this kingdome , mentioned in the a statute of the 25. hen. the 8. are spoken of by severall of our writers : and though some b have in generall expressed how much the nation suffer'd in that kind ; yet none , that i know , in one tract did ever shew by what degrees the papacy gained so great a revenue , as the commons in edward the thirds dayes had cause to complain , it did turn c a plus grand destruction du royaume qe toute la guerre nostre seigneur le roy. i have thought therefore that it will not be amisse to set down , how the pope came to have so great an influence over the treasure of the clergy in this land , by seeking out how and when the greatest of the paiments made to him began , what interruptions or oppositions were met with , either at the beginning or in the continuance of them . 2. the first payment , that i have read of , which gave the pope an entrance as it were in to it , was that bounty of our princes known to this day by the name of peter-pence : and this as it was given for an d almes by our kings , so was it no otherwise received by the court of rome ; e eleemosyna beati petri , prout audivimus , ita perpera●● doloseque collecta est , ut neque mediam ejus partem hactenus ecclesia romana susceperit , saith paschalis the 2. so that no question f polidore virgil very inconsiderately termes it vectigal , and others , who by that gift contend the kingdome became g tributarium feudatarium s to . petro ejusque successoribus : for though the word tributum may perhaps be met with in elder h writers , yet never did any understand the pope by it to become a superior lord of the lay fee , but used the word metaphorically ; as we do to this day terme a constant rent a kind of tribute , and to those who pay it , and over whom we have in some sort a command , we give the title of subjects ; not as being princes over them , but in that particular being under us , they are for it styled our inferiors . 3. what saxon king first conferred them , whether ina , as i ranulphus cestrensis sayes report carryed , or offa , as k iorvalensis , i will not here enquire , as not greatly materiall . l polidore virgil tells , some write ethelwolphus continued it : with whom brompton seems to concur . it is true , our historians remember he caused m 300. mancusas denariorum ( n malmsbury renders it trecentas auri marcas ( which was ten times the value of silver ) as o another trecenta talenta ) to be carried every year from hence to rome ; which could be no other then the just application of peter-pence : for amongst sundry complaints long after from p rome , we find the omission of no paiment instanced in , but of that duty onely ; neither do the body of the kingdome in their q remonstrance to innocentius 4. 1246. mention any other as due from hence to rome . 4. this therefore thus confer'd by our kings , was for the generality continued to the papacy ; yet ( to shew , as it were , that it proceeded only from the liberality of our princes , ) not without some stops . of those in the times of vvilliam the first & henry his son i have r spoke , henry the 2. during the dispute with becket and alexander the 3. commanded the sheriffs through england , that s denariibeati petri colligantur , & serventur , quousque inde deminus rex voluntatem suam praeceperit . during the reign of edward the 3. the popes abiding at avignon , many of them french , their partiality to that side , and the many victories obtained by th' english begat the proverb , u ore est le pape devenu françeis , & iesu devenu angleis , &c. about which time our historians observe , the king gave command x no peter-pence should be gather'd or pay'd to rome . and this restraint , it seems , continued all that princes time ; for richard the 2. his successor at his beginning caused iohn wickliffe , esteemed the most y knowing man of those times , to consider the right of stopping them ; whose determination in that particular yet remains , entituled z responsio magistri iohannis wicliff ad dubium infrascriptum , quaesitum ab eo per dominum regem angliae richardum secundum & magnum concilium , anno regni sui primo : then the question followes , dubium est , utrum regnum angliae possit legitime , imminente necessitate suae defensionis , thesaurum regnidetinere , ne deferatur ad exteros , etiam domino papa sub poena censurarum & virtute obedientiae hoc petente ; & relicto viris peritis quid dici debet in ista materia , secundum jus canon●cum , secundum jus angliae velcivile solum restat suadere partem affirmativam dubii , secundum principia legis christi : then shews , those paiments being no other then almes , the kingdome was not obliged to continue them longer then stood with its own convenience , and not to its detriment or ruine ; agreeing therein with that of divines , extra casus necessitatis & superfluitatis eleemosyna non est in praecepto . 5. but in the parliament held the same year , the question was concluded : for there this petition being prefer'd , a que y puisse estre declaree en cest present parlement , si la charge de la denir seint pierre , appelle rome peny , seraleve des dites commes , & paye al collector nostre seint perele pape ou noun ; the answer was , soit fait come devant ad este usee : by which the use of them being again returned , did so remain till henry the 8 ths . time . for though in a b councell held at london 1408 , it was treated de censu & obedientia papae subtrahendis vel non subtrahendis ; yet that it past farther then words i have not observed . but king c henry 1533 / 4 took them so absolutely away , as though queen mary repealed that act , and paulus quartus dealt earnestly with her d agents in rome for restoring the use of them ; yet i cannot find they were ever gather'd , and sent thither during her time : but where some monasteries did answer them to the pope , and did therefore collect the taxe , that in processe of time became as by custome pay'd to that house ; which being after derived to the crown , and from thence by grant to others , with as ample profits as the religious persons did possesse them , i conceive they are to this day pay'd as an appendant to the said mannors , by the name of smoak-mony . 6. before i passe from this , one thing is not to be omitted : that however the pope had this as a due , and for that end his collector did abide in england ; yet he might not raise the auncient accustomed proportion of the taxe , nor in any kind alter the manner of taking it : for when rigandus from the pope endeavored that , he was streightly prohibited by edward the 2. the e act it self is printed . as for the value these peter-pence did amount to , i have seen in an old ms. belonging to the church of chichester , a bull said to be of f gregory 5 ths . that did proportion them after this manner . episcop . episcop .   l. s. d.   l. s. d. cant. 07 18 00 exoniensis 09 05 00 london . 10 10 00 wigorniensis 10 05 00 roffensis 05 10 00 herefordens . 06 00 00 norwicensis 21 00 00 bathon . 12 00 00 eliensis 05 00 00 sarisbur . 17 00 00 lincolniensis 42 00 00 coventrensis 10 00 00 cicestrensis 08 00 00 eborac . 11 10 00 winton . 17 06 08         dat. apud vrbem veterem x. kalend. maii , pontificatus nostri anno secundo . but this could not be the bull of gregory the 5. who dyed about 997. before g ely was erected , or episcopall chaires placed in h lincoln or norwich . 7. the last article in the oath prescribed the clergy from the pope , of obedience to him , was , not any way to alienate the possessions of their houses inconsulto romano pontifice . whether this clause were inserted when 1115 , it was first required of i raulf th' archbishop of cant. i have not been able to certify my self ; and am apt to believe it was not : for though we find it in k math. paris , when it was first imposed on abbots and bishops , yet that was after the court of rome had tasted the sweetnesse of taxing other churches ; neither is it in any of those conditions mentioned by l diceto . but when ever it came in , it implying a right of alienating the possessions of religious houses and churches , with the papall licence , bred an opinion , that without his assent there could be no good sale made of their estates , by any temporall or spirituall power whatsoever , though with their own concurrence : and the court of rome grew to maintain , m that being a mother , she ought to be relieved by her children . n gelasius the second in his distresse 1118 , is said to have desired à normannica ecclesia subsidium orationum , & magis pecuniarum : yet certainly the norman church did not then at all condescend to any ; for the french agent in the o lugubri querimonia ( of which before ) mentions him amongst divers others who , expell'd italy , fled into france for succour , yet , non in aliquo gravaverunt ecclesiam gallicanam , nec dando beneficta , nec petendo subsidium pecuniae vel armorum , sed spiritualibus armis , scilicet lacrymis & orationibus , quae sunt arma ministrorum christi , maluerunt esse contenti , &c. so that certainly if any collection were made for gelasius , it was so private , publick notice was not taken of it . 8. the first extraordinary contribution raised by allowance for the popes use in this kingdome , i take not to have been before 1183. when lucius 3 us . at odds with the citizens of rome , not any ways able to resist their fury , sent to henry the 2. postulans ab eo & à clericatu angliae auxilium . the thing was taken into consideration , and for the precedent , it was not thought fit any thing should be given as from the clergy , but that they might raise a supply amongst themselves for the king , without permitting a forraign agent to intermeddle ; and his majesty might with that relieve the pope as he should see occasion . but take in the historian his own words . p consuluit rex episcopos suos & clerum angliae de petitione summi pontificis : cui episcopus & clerus consuluerunt , ut ipse secundum voluntatem suam & honorem faceret auxilium domino papae , tam pro se quam illis ; quia tolerabilius esset , & plus placeret eis , quod dominus rex , si vellet , accepisset ab eis recompensationem auxilii illius , quam si permisisset nuncios domini papae in angliam venire , ad capiendum de iis auxilium ; quia si aliter fiere● , posset verti in consuetudinem , ad detrimentum regni . adqu●●vit rex consilio corum , & fecit auxilium magnum domino papae in auro & argento . the judicious reader may observe hence things very remarkable : as , that the king did in points concerned the pope consult with the english church , and followed their advise ; the great care the clergy took to avoid any sinister consequence in future , and therefore did themselves give to the prince , as to whom it was due from them , and not to the pope , who by custome might come to claim it : as indeed he did after step so far , as to prohibit their giving the king at all , without q his license , endeavouring the gaining a supremacy over them as well in temporalls as spiritualls , who hitherto had not meddled with collections of that nature . for the r same henry , about 17 years before , ( after th' example of the french ) did cause a supply be made for the relief of the eastern church ; but i do not find it to have been either upon any motion from rome , or any part of what was so levyed to have been converted that way . 9. but the former granted 1183. passing with so great circumspection , perswaded the popes not to think fit sodainly ( as it seems ) of attempting the like ; yet that the church of england might not be unaccustomed to paiments , they sometimes exhorted christians to the subvention of the holy land , and thereupon did distribute spirituall indulgences ( which cost them ●ot a farthing ) and procured princes to impose on their subjects for that end : so did s clement the 3. or rather gregory the 8 th . about 1187. stir up hen. the 2. and philip augustus , t innocentius 3. king iohn : and , as a generall superintendent over the clergy , did then intromit himself and his agents in the raising of it , and so did convert some good proportion to his own use ; insomuch as iohannes ferentinus , sent hither 1206. from the same innocentius 3 us , u carryed hence a good quantity ; upon which king iohn writ unto the pope 1207. x quod uberiores sibi fructus proveniant de regno angliae , quam de omnibus regionibus citra alpes constitutis , &c. yet truly , to raise any considerable summe of mony from the whole body of the clergy , for support of the papall designs , i do not find any great attempt before gregory the ix . 1229. y demanded a tenth of the moveables , of both lay and ecclesiasticks : to which the temporall lords would not at all assent , nolentes baronias vel laicas possessiones romanae ecclesiae obligare ; and the clergy were unwillingly induced to the contribution . the pope thus entred , meddled no more with the lay , but of z the clergy eleven years after he demanded by his legat a fifth part of their goods . many meetings were had about it : a they shewed the king , they held their baronies of him , and could not without his assent charge them ; that having formerly given a tenth , this of a fifth might create a custome : and at a meeting in barksh●re exhibited sundry solid reasons ( too long to be here repeated ) against the contribution . but nothing would serve ; the king made for it , and th' archbishop out of private ends paying it , they were in the end forced to yield such a supply , as at his departure the year following it was say'd , b there did not remain so much treasure in the kingdome , as he had in three years extorted from it ( the vessells and ornaments of churches excepted . ) 10. but neither the paying it with so great reluctancy , nor the c remonstrance prefer'd in the councell of lions 1245. from the body of the kingdome , of the severall exactions the nation lay under from rome , and likewise d to the pope himself the year following , could any way stop the proceedings ; but innocentius 4 tus . 1246 , e invented a new way , to charge every religious house with finding and paying a quantity of souldiers for his service in the wars for one year : which being required from both the english and french , produced here those prohibitions in the same author against raising any tallagium or auxilium . but the french caused their agent to use a serious expostulation in the businesse ; which , because it is not printed , i shall deliver at large as i f find it . nuncii de novo accesserunt , nova gravamina addentes supradictis : nuper enim mandavistis ecclesiis , ut quia persecutor vester ad partes istas venturus est , mittant vobis militiam munitam ad resistendum ei , quia non est concilium cedere venienti ; super quo satis excusabiles sunt ecclesiae , quia non habent militiam , nec est in parte eorum mittere quod non habent , quos etiamsi haberent & mitterent , non est tutum confid●re de ipsis . nec scitur etiam de illis , utrum venturus sit , quia etiamsi veniret , praeferendum esset ( ut videretur ) concilio humano concilium domini , qui dicit , si persecuti fuerint vos in unam civitatem , fugite in aliam , &c. and in the same year he g attempted the making himself heir to any clerk that should die intestate ; and the year ⸫ following received from the clergy eleven thousand marks , exceptis exemptis & tribus clericis , as an addition to six thousand he had received the .˙.˙ year before . 11. i shall not here take upon me to repeat all the times and wayes by which the subject had his purse thus drained , the labour would be too great , and the profit too little : it shall suffice to note , the court of rome , by much strugling , overcame in the end all difficulties , & did arrive to that height , the h commons were forced in parliament 1376. to prefer this petition : si tost come le pape voet avoir monoie pur maintenir ses guerres de lombardy , ou ailleurs pur despendere , ou pur raunson auscuns de ses amys prisoners fraunceys prises par englois , il voet avoir subsidie de clergie d' engleterre ; & tantost celuy est grantez par les prelats , a cause qe les evesqes n'osent luy contrestere , & est leve de clergie sans lour assent ent avoir devant : et les seculers seigneurs my preignent garde , ne ne font face coment le clergie est destruict , & la monoye de royalme malement emporte . 12. and indeed the kingdome had great reason thus to complain : see one of many examples that may be alledged . in the year 1343 , the 17. ed. 3. clement the 6. sent hither to provide for two cardinall priests , one out of the province of york , the other canterbury , in spirituall livings , to the value of 1000. marks a piece , i sur une si generale & coverte maniere , qe la somme passer a dix mille marqes avant qe le doun soit accept . but the state would not endure this , k but chasing their agents out of the kingdome , the king sent through every county , l ne quis ab eo tempore & deinceps admitteretur per bullam , sine speciali licentia regis : and a little after , the parliament held the 20. of ed. 3. 1346. the commons yet more plainly , m nous ne voulons soeffrer qe payement soit fait as cardinalx , pour lour demoere en france de treter , &c. and soon after they represent this very particular of 2000. marks to be n en anientissement de la terre , and encrese de nos enemies ; and therefore qu'●ls ne soient en nul maniere so●fferts , &c. in both which his ma tie . gives them content . 13. neither did the papacy , having gained the possession ( as i may term it ) of taxing , impose these payments for one year onely upon forreign churches , as at first , but for six successively one after the other . so did o iohn the 21. in the year 1277. and p clement the 5. in the councell of vienna 1311. pretending an employment against the infidells ; but procuring princes to joyn with them in the collecting , that it might be pay'd with more facility , ( and therefore gave them either the q whole , or part of what was so raised ; from whence no doubt grew that proverb so full of infamy , r that the king and pope were the lion and wolf ) did in the end ( as we have heard ) convert the treasure to the ransoming their friends , the maintenance of their wars , and such like mundane ends . the s french affirm , the first of their kings who shared with rome in these levies , to have been charls le bel , about 1326. which if it were , our kings were before them ; but such as succeded knew there as well as elsewhere , how to apply what was thus gather'd wholy to themselves , wiping the popes clean out : and notwithstanding all t complaints in that kind from rome , u duarenus observes the crown of france to have none more certain or speedy revenue , then that is thus raised of the ecclesiasticks . 14. but these exactions grew so burthensome , martin the 5 th . at x the councell of constance 1417. was constrained to establish , nullatenus imponantur generaliter super totum clerum , nisi ex magna & ardua causa , & utilitate universalem , ecclesiam concernente , & de consilio & consensu & subscriptione fratrum nostrorum , sanctae romanae ecclesiae cardinalium & praelatorum , quorum consilium commode haberi poterit ; nec specialiter in aliquo regno vel provincia , inconsultis praelatis ipsius regni vel provinciae , &c. upon which decree a supply of the tenth being y twice demanded , viz. 1515 , and 1518. by leo the x th . against the turk , th' english clergy denyed them both times . thus the papacy by little and little gained in england the power of sometimes laying that tax on church-men , is to this day known by the name of a tenth , which became limited , as we have seen ; and after by z statute the 26. hen. 8 th . transfer'd to the king to be pay'd annually unto him ; as were likewise the first fruits or profits of one year , commonly called annats , ( for i take them to be the same ) of all spirituall livings : of which a word . 15. the first raising of them seemeth to have been , that when the court of rome did confer on clerks and chaplains residing with them , benefices in the dioceses of others , they who thus obtained from that chair not onely the spirituall , of ordination , but likewise the temporall of profit , did at first , either to shew their gratitude , or for that the pope would have it so , voluntarily give the whole , or some part of the first years revenue to the court , by whose favour they received all : and the papacy perceiving the gain did thus accrue , laboured to extend it farther ; was in some sort imitated by other bishops ; and for avoyding the shew of simony , cover'd what was thus took with the names of annates , vacantiae , * minuta servitia scripturae , and such like . but as st. gregory a tolerating onely a liberality to be given after the reception of the pall , his successors knew how to turn it to a revenue ; so these , however at first begun , did afterwards become an●ually a profit . what others did in this kind , is not necessary to that i treat of ; but upon the practice of the church of rome , the 25. ed. 3. the commons b exhibit this petition to the king : prie sa commune , &c. de veer & regarder , &c. d'engleterre d'engleterre , & provendres en esglises cathedralles , & les donne si bien as aliens come as denezeins , & issint ad le pape toutz les primers fruicts des dits benefices . by which it appeares , the papacy , that formerly took the first-fruits of onely such livings as men dyed possest of in the court of rome , had an intent of extending them to all were de patronage espiritel : but whether an active king stopt upon this the endeavours of that see , or the popes , wise men , thought it not ●it to make too sodain an irruption into the profits of other churches , is not greatly materiall ; c but 25. years after , the commons again represent the popes collector , ore de novel cest an & nele prest unqes devant al oeps du pape les primiers fruitz de ches●un benefice , dont il fait provision ou collation , except de graces grantez aux povres , ou il ne soleit prendre nulles fruictes ●orsqe soulement des beneficez vacantz en la court de rome . 16. but in whose time these first-fruits began to be taken , there seems to me some difference amongst writers . theodoricus à niem ( who lived in the court of rome , secretary as some write to gregory the xi . or rather , as it seems to me , of vrban the vi . ) d sayes , boniface the ix . circa decimum annum sui regiminis , viz. 1399. primos fructus unius anni omnium ecclesiarum cathedralium & abbatiarum vacantium suae camerae reservavit , it a quod quicunque extunc per eum promoveri voluit , ante omnia cogebatur solvere primos fructus ecclesiae , vel monasterii cui praefici voluit , &c. with whom e platina agrees ; annatarum usum primus imposuit , ( bonifacius ix . ) hac conditione , ut qui beneficium consequeretur , dimidum annui proventus fisco apostolico persolverent : sunt tamen qui hoc inventum iohanni xxii . ascribunt , &c. the same likewise f polidore virgil affirms , though he speak as if some thought them of an higher time , which under favour i do not credit ; for g nicholaus clemanges , in the treatise he writ concerning them , saith , that when such reservations fell into consideration in the councell of constance ( he lived whilst it ●ate ) no beginning could be assigned before iohn the xxii . began them , pro certo passagio ultramarino , & quibusdam aliis necessitatibus suis. to which i may adde the opinion of the wise and learned h cardinall d'ossat : i●han xxii . françois de nation , dont il me deplaist , fust le primier que outre les taxes & annates qu'il inventa , &c. and ranulphus cestrensis , one of that time , i saith of him , beneficiorum per mortem seu resignationem vacantium , sive per translationem , primos fructus reservavit , ita ut rector iustitutus taxationem beneficii sui aut residuum taxationis acceptaret : ex qua cautela innumerabiles thesauri ad manus papae devenerunt , &c. and knighton himself , k reservavit curiae omnes primos fructus vacantium ecclesiarum , sive per mortem sive per resignationem , &c. l walsingham 1316. summus pontifex reservavit camerae suae primos fructus beneficiorum omnium in anglia per trienntum vacantium : which not occurring of any pope before , i cannot ascribe other to have begun them then he ; who though , in a * bull dated the 5. ianuary 4. pontificatus , he mention fructus redditus , proventus , primi anni beneficiorum , yet by the doubts he there resolves , shews the practice of them then newly brought into the church . but whereas the m writers before-named agree , the english , of all nations , never received in this the full extent of the papall commands , i conceive it to arise from the good laws they made against them : of which before , and after . 17. it is hardly credible how great a masse of treasure was by these wayes sent hence into italy . n the revenues th' italians were possest of in england 1245. are accounted not lesse then 60. thousand marks ; o 1252. it was thought they did amount to 70. thousand ( all which for the most drained thither : ) and in p the parliament held about an hundred years after , the commons shew , what went hence to the court of rome , tourne a plus grand destruction du royalme qe toute la guerre nostre seigr. le roy : yet , notwithstanding so many statutes as were made by that prince , for moderating the excesses in this kind , the 50 th . they complain , ( i shall give it contractedly ) q the popes collect●r here held a receipt equall to a prince or duke ; sent annually to rome from the clergy , for procuration of albeys , priories , first-fruits , &c. xx . thousand marks , some years more others lesse , and to cardinalls and other clerks beneficed in england as much , besides what was conveyed to english clerks remaining there to sollicite the affairs of the nation : upon which they desire his ma ●y , no collector of the pope may reside in england . 18. but the king , as it seems , not greatly complying with their desires , the r year following they again instance , that certain cardinalls , notorious enemies , had procured a clause d'anteferri to certain benefices , within the provinces of canterbury and york ; that the popes collector was as very an enemy to this state as the french themselves ; that his house-keeping here at the clergies cost was not lesse then 300l. by the year ; that he sent annually from hence beyond seas * at one time 20 thousand marks , sometimes 20. thousand pounds ; and what was worse , espyed the secrets of the kingdome , vacations of benefices , and so dayly made the certainty known to the said court ; did now raise for the pope the first-fruits of all dignities and other smaller promotions , causing by oath to pay the true value of them , surmounting the rate they were formerly taxed at : which now in the very beginning ought to be crusht , &c. vpon which considerations they desire , all strang●rs , clerks and others ( excepting knights , esquires , merchants , artificers ) might sodainly avoid the kingdom ; no subjects , without the kings expresse licence , to be proctors , aturneys , f●rmors to any such alyen , under the pain , after proclamation made , of life , member , losse of lands and goods , and to be dealt with as theeves and robbers ; no mony during the wars to be transported out of the kingdom by exchange or otherwise , on the forfeiture of it . but to this the answer onely was , setiegnent les estatutz & ordonances ent faites . whereupon the s next parliament the commons prefer'd again three petitions , touching i. the paiment of * first-fruits taken come due a la chambre nostre seint pere , yet not used in the realme before these times , was contrary to former treaties with the pope , &c. ii. reservations of benefi●es . iii. by that way bestowing them on alyens , who sundry times employed the profits of them towards the raunsoming or araying their friends , enemies to the king. of all which they desire his ma ty . to provide remedy ; as also that the petitions the two last parliaments ( of which before ) might be consider'd , and convenient remedy ordained . to which the answer is , les seig rs . du grand conseil ordeigneront due remedie sur les matires comprises en●estes trois billes precedentes . and here i take the grand councell to be the privy councell , not the lords in or out of parliament ; called the grand councell for the greatnesse of the affairs fell within their cognizance , and t named the 5. of hen. the 4. to consist onely of six bishops , one duke , two earls , and other in all to the number of 22. 19. what order they establisht , i have not met with ; it is manifest not to have been such as gave the satisfaction hoped for , by the commons u renewing in effect both 3 o. and 5 to . ric. 2. the same suites : and the inconveniences still continuing , x in the year 1386 / 7. 10. ric. 2. william weld was chosen abbot of s. augustins ( in the place of michael newly dead , ) who troubled with a quartan ague , the french and dutch on the seas , the king inhibited his going to rome for confirmation , &c. he thereupon employs william thorn , ( from whose pen we have the relation ) hoping to be excused himself of the journey ; who ⸫ shewing the sufferings of the house , the miserable state he must leave it in , that he would expose it irrecuperabili casui & ruinae , that the king had commanded his stay , was in the end told by the pope ( after all means he could use ) ⸪ rex tuus praecipit quod non veniat electus ille , ego volo quod compareat & examini se subjiciat : and again , after yet more earnest sollicitation , quia audivimus turbationem inter regem & barones suos , ( the fittest time to contest with a prince ) & multa sinistra de persona electi , & quod cederet romanae ecclesiae in .˙.˙ praejudicium , absque personali comparitione non intendimus ipsum confirmare , ne daretur posteris in exemplum . the cause hanging three years in suspense , the abbot in fine was forced to appear in rome for his benediction , and returned with it not to his house till about the end of march 1389. the 12. ric. 2. after which , the next y parliament obtained the statute of premunire , against the popes conferring any benefice within the said kingdome from the 29 of ianuary then ensuing ; and no person to send or bring any summons , or sentence of excommunication against any for the execution of the same law , on the pain of being arrested , put in prison , forfeiture of his lands , tenements &c. and incurring the pain of life , member , &c. the intent of which law ⸫ polidor virgil rightly interprets to have been , a confining the papall auctority within the ocean , and for the frequent exactions of rome , ut nulli mortalium deinceps liceret pro quavis causa agere apud romanum pontificem ; ut quispiam in anglia ejus autoritate impius religionisque hostis publice declararetur , neve exequi tale mandatum si quod ab illo haberet , &c. to which law three years after some other ⸪ additions were made : and none of these were ever repealed by queen mary , who though she did admit a union with the church of rome , yet in restoring the popes supremacy the state used so .˙.˙ great caution , as it ever seemed to me rather a verball then reall admission of his auctority ; which it seems her majesty well understood , in that she would never permit peito to appear before her in the quality of either cardinall , bishop , or legat , to all which he was preferred by paulus 4. but where ˙.˙. some would excuse these and such like laws , as past by consent and toleration from rome , or at least by the importunity of the lay ; that i have said doth enough shew the papall care , in suffering nothing , they could stop , might any way prejudice that see. and for the bishops passing the 16 ric. 2. pressed by the temporalty , it is so much otherwise , as that statute is enrolled on the desire of the archbishop of canterbury , rot. parl. 16. ric. 2. numero 20. in fine . 20. in the same parliament , the commons , as it seems , much exasperated against the popes collectour , do yet farther z petition , he may have the warning of fourty daies given him to be gone out of the kingdome , sur peine d'estre pris come enemy du roy & ranceone ; & qe desore en avant ▪ nul collectour soit demoerant deinz le royalme d' engleterre , s'ilne soit lige du roy , & qe mesme cestui face nul rien a contraire de l'estatute de provisors fait en cest present parlement , sur peine de vie & de membre , sanz perdon , considerant les meschiefs & damages qe les collectours estranges ount faitz deinz le royalme devant ces heures . but to this the answer only is , le roys ' advisera . 21. after these petitions and laws , however they sufficiently barr'd the court of rome from medling with this church , and enough shewed the right of the kingdome in reforming of it self , and redressing all inconveniences came unto it from beyond sea ; yet the king having a power of dispensing with those statutes , this mischief ensued : divers who easily obtained letters of provision to a good benefice from the papacy , sued to the king ( who held fair correspondency with the popes ) that they might put his bulls in execution ; who delayed his concessions sometimes a year or longer , after the vacation of the living , during which the ordinary had admitted some able person into the place , who then began to be disturbed : for prevention of which , the a statutes of 7. hen. 4. and 3. hen. 5. were made , that no licence should be available against any possest of a living at the day of the date thereof , and farther to make void all so granted . after ⸪ which the contract , too long to be here inserted , between martin the 5. and the english church , for setling severall disputes of ecclesiastick cognizance , as of uniting benefices , consolidations , &c. was concluded ; in which the papacy seems to permit such particulars to the english clergy , as they would not be restrained in , though formerly claimed not to be exercised but by his auctority . yet the 8. hen. 5. n. 10. the commons petition , qe nul persone , de quel estate ou condition qu'il soit , ne amesne &c. hors du royalme d' engleterre — or ne argent pour marchandise de seinte esglise , ou autre grace ou priviledge d'seinte esglise avoir , ne pour autre cause queconque , &c. 22. it would be here tedious , and not greatly pertinent , to repeat all the provisions made in this kind , for the well-governing the clergy of this kingdome , and preserving of them free of destruction from abroad ; which yet were never such , but the pope and his officers did export a great quantity of treasure from them . william thorne hath recorded the disbursements to the court of rome at the election of michael abbot of saint augustine 1375. not to have been lesse then 428l. — 17s. — 10d. beside the expence of such as were sent , and what was paid for the loan of mony to make these payments , viz. 130l. — 18s. — 2d. our historians b observe , in the parliament held 1532. 23 hen. 8. it was computed , the papacy had received out of england for only the investitures of bishopricks , in the fourty years last past , an hundred and sixty thousand pound sterling , which is four thousand pound by the year : an incredible summe , considering the poverty of the realm for lack of silver , the weight of the mony then currant , and the strict laws of former princes against such like transportations . 23. thus having shew'd the beginning of the papall auctority with us , and how from the generall power all bishops received from christ , and the fatherly care such as were instrumentall in the conversion of a people did carry to them as their spirituall children , and the obedience they likewise yielded to their ghostly fathers , the pope began by steps ( as i may say ) to exercise a dominion over the clergy here , and not stopping there , upon various pretences , by severall waies , and ( as it appears ) degrees , to become so far lord of their temporalls , that they might not dispose of them , well , contrary to his liking , because he had the sole rule of all committed to him from christ : the first point i conceive sufficiently proved , viz. that what was gained thus by great industry , at sundry times , by severall means , could no way speak his superintendency over this church jure divino . the second point remains , whether our princes , by the advise of their clergy , had not auctority to cause them reform this church , without any new assumption of power , not formerly invested in the crown : which leads me to shew what the regall power in sacris was here held to be , before hen. the 8. and rome divided each from other . chap. v. how far the regall power did extend it self in matters ecclesiasticall . 1. before i enter into the dispute of the right the kings of england did exercise in the regiment of this church , i hold it not unnecessary to see , in what divines hold ecclesiastick auctority doth consist . a bellarmine , b turrecremata and others divide spirituall power into ordinis , which they refer to the administration of the sacraments ; and iurisdictionis , which they hold double , internall , where the divine by perswasions , wholesome instructions , ghostly counsell , and the like , so convinces the inward conscience , as it is wholly obedient to his dictates , such as those of st. peter were acts ii . 37. and externall , where the church in foro exteriori compells the christians obedience . now for the first and second of these , the king did not take upon him at all to meddle : for he neither assumed to himself a power of preaching , teaching , binding , or loosing in foro animae , administring the holy sacraments , conferring orders , nor to any particular is properly annexed to them ; only to such things as are of the outward policy of the church , as that god may be truly served , such as transgresse the received lawfull constitutions even of the church , fitly punished , by the right of his crown , the continued practice of his ancestours , he could not doubt but he might deal in , causing all others , be they clerks or other , that offend , to suffer condigne punishment . 2. for the better understanding how far the ecclesiastick rule of our princes did extend , we are to know , they were never doubted to have the same within their dominions , constantine had in the empire ; and our bishops to have that st. peter had in the church . ego constantini , vos petri gladium habetis in manibus , said king edgar to his clergy , in that his speech so e recommended to posterity . and therefore , as after the christian magistrate began to have government , affairs of most concernment in the church ( as is d said ) had their dependance on the emperour , the greatest synods called by him , and the holy men of those times did not doubt the continuing to him the title of pontifex maximus , as e baronius notes , sine ulla christianitatis labe ; and as * constantine did esteem the ecclesiasticks 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but himself 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , them for things within , but himself for matters without by god appointed a bishop : so the same king edgar , f no lesse to be remembred by the english then charls the great by the french , was g solicitous of the church of his kingdome , veluti domini sedulus agricola , and pastorum pastor , was reputed and writ himself the vicar of christ , and by his h laws and canons assured the world he did not in vain assume those titles , and yet sine ulla christianitatis labe , so far as antiquity ever noted . 3. what particulars those were the emperours did hold 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to be without the church , belonging as i may say to their episcopacy , nothing can better teach us then their commands yet remaining in the laws they publisht ; as in cod. theodos. de feriis , de nuptiis , &c. de fide catholica , de episcopis eccleis . & clericis , de monachis , de haereticis , de apostatis , de religione , de episcopali judicio , &c. cod. iust. lib. 1. tit. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5. & passim in eo : and in the novells , novel . 6. quomodo oporteat episcopos & caeteros clericos ad ordinationes perduci . novel . 137. de ordinatione episcoporum & clericorum . the prefaces to which two laws are remarkable : the first shewing the priestly office is divinis ministrare , and the princely , maximam habere sollicitudinem circa vera d. idogmata , & circa sacerdotum honestatem , &c. the other beginning thus , si civibus leges , quarum potestatem nobis deus pro sua in homines benignitate credidit , firm as ab omnibus custodiri ad obedientium securitatem studemus , quanto plus studii adhibere debemus circa sacrorum canonum & divinarum legum custodiam ? and accordingly novel . 123. in 43 chapters he did establish many particulars pertaining to the government of the church and church-men ; and novel . 131. not only l appointed the observance of the four first generall councels , but m decrees the place or precedency of the pope of rome and archbishop of constantinople should be according to their definitions above all other seats , and how far the dioceses of some chairs by him newly erected should extend , besides other points in severall chapters to the number of 15 , treating of particulars solely held now of ecclesiastick cognizance ; as did likewise charls the great , and ludovicus pius in their capitulars in very many places . but with these i have not took upon me farther here to meddle , then by naming some , to shew , they having been practis'd by emperours , the kings of england , endowed from above with the same auctority in ecclesiasticis , might very lawfully within their dominions exercise the like : the question therefore will be , what they did understand their power in the church to be , and accordingly how far they did extend it in use . 4. as for the first , nothing can speak more clear then what themselves publisht on mature and sad deliberation , yet remaining in their laws ; in which we find the regall office thus n described : rex , quia vicarius sammi regis est , ad hoc est constitutus , ut regnum terrenum , & populum domini , & , super omnia , sanctam veneretur ecclesiam ejus , & regat , & ab injuriosis d●fendat : and a little after , debet rex deum timere super omnia , & diligere , & mandata ejus per totum regnum suum servare ; debet etiam sanctam ecclesiam regni sui , cum omni integritate & libertate , juxta constitutiones patrum & praedecessorum , servare , fovere , manutenere , regere , & contra inimicos defendere , ita ut deus prae caeteris honoretur , & prae oculis semper habeatur , &c. canutus , o nobis omni ope atque opera enitendum erit , qua potissimum ratione ea exquiramus consilia , quae ad reipublicae pertinent utilitatem , pietatem confirment christianam , atque omnem funditus injustitiam evertant , &c. iorvalensis renders it , quomodo possit — recta christianitas propensius erigi . ina , p in magna servorum dei frequentia religiose stud bam , tum * animorum nostrorum saluti , tum communi regni nostri conservationi ; which iorvalensis reads , sollicitus de salute animarum nostrarum & de statu regni , shewing the care both of his subjects souls and bodies , however after a differing way , did in some measure pertain unto him . 5. neither did these expressions passe only from the worst of our kings ; but from ina , rex maxime pius , as q baronius stiles him ; from canutus , who not only himself 1031. went in devotion to rome , but was acknowledged r erga ecclesias atque dei servos benignissimus largitor ; edward the confessour , a canonized saint ; famous for being the best kings and holyest men : who did not only leave us in their laws the kings part , but what they conceived likewise the bishops was , viz. to be s dei praecones , divini juris interpretes , that they were rerum divinarum commoda praedicare palam , that for and to the people they should vigilare , excubare , proclamare , &c. as those that t contra spirituales nequitias debent populo praevidere , by letting them know , qui dei praeceptis obedire negl●xerit , hic cum ipso deo commune non habeat . and this is that sword of st. peter mentioned by king edgar , which when the holy bishops of the primitive times did only put in execution , they neither found princes backward in supporting their designes , nor people refractory to their exhortations . thus we see , as they declared the office of a king , they were not silent in that of a bishop , shewing how either laboured in his way the reducing people to piety , and a vertuous life ; the one by making good laws for compelling the wicked , the other by giving such instructions as convinced the inward man. 6. so that we often meet with the prince extending his commands to the same things the priest did his persuasions : as i. in point of sacraments , u that children should be baptized within 30 days after birth . leg. inae cap. 2. pag. 1. ii. and , because it seems some priests were negligent performers of that duty , x that such as were not prepared , or denied the baptizing of them , should be punished . leg. ed. & guthruni cap. 3. pag. 42. excerptiones egberti cap. 10 , 11 , 12. in concil . spelm. pag. 259. where you may observe the kings precept to impose on the transgressor the payment of 12 y ora , but the bishops to be onely persuasive . iii. no person to be admitted to the eucharist , be a godfather , receive confirmation from a bishop , not knowing the pater noster and belief . canones dati sub edgaro & legibus ejus annexi , cap. 17. 22. p. 67. & z leg. canuti cap. 22. p. 105. spelm. concil . cap. 22. pag. 599. iv. that persons instructed should receive the communion thrice every year . a leg. canut . cap. 19. p. 104. v. restrained by their laws matrimony to the 6th degree of consanguinity . b leg. canut . cap. 7. p. 101. vi. reserved to themselves a liberty of dispensing with the marriage even of nuns . e leg. alured . cap. 8. p. 25. and it is not to be forgot , in that particular , lanfrank joyns the kings advise ( as a person of equall power ) with his own , ⸫ & hoc est , saith he , consilium regis & nostrum . vii . commanded th' observance of lent principali auctoritate . beda lib. 3. cap. 8. viii . appointed certain daies to be held festivall by the better sort , but allowed the servant and labourer to work in them . d leg. aluredi cap. 39. pag. 33. which the laws of canutus seem after to take away . e leg. canut . cap. 42 , 43. pag. 118. see there pag. 103. cap. 14 , 16 , 17. which was likewise exercised 1393. by richard the 2. i omit here their edicts for the observation of the lords day , payment of tythes , incontinency , and such like , ( held now merely of ecclesiastick cognizance ) for the multiplicity of them . ix . divided old , and erected new bishopricks . beda lib. 3. cap. 7. lib. 4. cap. 12. lib. 5. cap. 19. and yet this is that f cardinall bellarmine holds a point of so high concernment , no man can do it without auctority obtained from rome : which yet we never read to have been asked , ⸫ though theodore 679 erected five ( consensu regis ) at one time ; and some other altogether without the popes liking , as those in the north , after th' expulsion of wilfrid . confer beda lib. 4. cap. 12. cum libro 5. cap. 20. but of this before . x. caused the clergy of their kingdome to meet in councels . malms . fol. 26. a. 38. and sometimes presided themselves in them , though the popes legate were present . concil . spelm. pag. 292 , 293. pag. 189 , & passim ibid. vita lanfranci cap. 6. col . 1. pag. 7. vide florent . wigorn . an. 1070. pag. 434. 7. of the crowns commanding in these particulars , it is apparent to have been in possession , the pope seeing and not interrupting any whit , whilst the saxon and dane bare here the sway ; when , to speak truth , it seems to me not so much to have been insisted on , by whose auctority the thing commanded was done , as a care taken of all sides nothing should be required but just , and pious ; which made each precept , without dispute , from what author soever it proceeded , be readily yielded unto : and so the normans found it , under whom the first contentions ( concerning jurisdiction ) with the see of rome began . for before william the first possest himself of this crown , it is certain , the english bishops had no ordinary courts distinguish'd from the lay , but both secular and ecclesiastick magistrate fate and judged together , what pertained ad observantiam religiouis locis suis , & à suae diaoeceseos synodis ; as was likewise the custome * in france . 8. this were enough manifest , in that we find the lay not only present , but subscribers to many of our ancient g councels ; did not the laws of h ethelstan , i edgar , k canutus farther assure us . it is probable , inferiour judicatures did refer matters of doubt to the greater courts or scy●egemor , to be held twice a year , as the former edicts and l some councels did establish : which produced that care in the councel of m celichyth 816. the bishop should transcribe judgements given in qualicunque synodo of what pertained to his diocese , and he to keep one copy , and the party whom it concerned another of such determination ( which i take to be those laws mentioned by n eadmerus , which as they were reposed in some parts of the church , so were the pleas ( as it seems ) usually o there held . ) but the conqueror , finding these proceedings to be non bene , neque secundum sanctorum canonum praecepta , &c. did by his charter make a distinction of the courts , that such as were convented by the bishop should answer non secundum hundred , sed secundum canones & episcopales leges &c. the charter to remigius bishop of lincoln is upon record , p published by many , and was certainly by the conquerour directed to every diocese through the kingdome : for i have seen in an hand of q edward the first one for london , testifying it was then found in the episcopall register there . 9. when this past the king , whether at the popes legats being here for deposing stygand 1070. ( about which time historians remember he made some beginning for settling the english laws , and is therefore likely to have then past this ) or when they were here for settling the dispute between york and canterbury , or at what other time , is uncertain . yet i cannot deny , it seemeth to me to have given th' occasion of those expressions in r alexander the 2. his letter to him , that the world , in maligno positus , plus solito pravis incumbat studiis ; tamen inter mundi principes & rectores egregiam vestrae religionis famam intelligimus , & quantum honoris sanctae ecclesiae tum simoniacae vires opprimendo , ( which is apparently spoken of stygand ) tum catholicae libertatis usus & officia ( by which questionlesse he points at this charter ) confirmando , vestra virtus impendat , non dubia relatione cognoscimus , &c. now certainly , if he did grant it during the life of the pope , it must not have been after 1073. in which year he died . i confesse , i have not met with any clear example of the practice of it during the reigns of that king , or either of his children : for though anselme about 1106. writes to henry the first , ( who had punisht certain clerks not observing the decrees of a councell held at westminster 1102 ) t quod hactenus inauditum & inusitatum in ecclesia dei de ullo rege & de aliquo principe ; non enim pertinet secundum legem dei hujusmodi culpam vindicare , nisi ad singulos episcopos per suas parochias : yet i conceive this is to be interpreted of the king doing it alone without the bishop , not when they both joyned together after the manner then in use , which himself elsewhere u advises rufus unto ; conemur una , tu regia potestate & ego pontificali authoritate , quatenus tale quid inde statuatur , quod cum per totum fuerit regnum divulgatum , solo etiam auditu , quicunque illius fautor est paveat & deprimatur . i can take this for no other , but that in the laws of x ethclstan , debent episcopicum seculi judicibus interesse judiciis , ne permittant , si possint , ut aliqua pravitatum germina pullulaverint . and the laws of y henry the first are expresse , the use to have continued in his daies ; for they approve the ancient institution , that generalia comitatuum placita certis locis & vicibus convenire debere , that the iudges in those courts were episcopi , comites , vicedomini , &c. the causes they dealt in , and order of proceeding , agantur primo debita verae christianitatis jura , secundo regis placita , postremo causae singulorum , &c. and why may not certa loca here be what anselme calls parochia , the conqueror hundred ? 10. but good laws are not alwaies suddenly put in execution ; and this of the conqueror we may take to have slept , till towards the beginning of king stephen's time it had got some strength , for then we meet with plain precedents of the ecclesiastick courts being sever'd from the lay. theobald of canterbury molesting the monastery of st. augustines concerning certain priviledges granted from the papacy , th' abbot obtained a bull from innocentius 2. of the 20 november 1139. in his houses favour , in which the pope expostulates with th' archbishop , z quod occasione privilegii nostri , idem monasterium vehementer infestas , & ecclesias eidem coenobio pertinentes eundem abbatem ordinare non sines , quin potius violent a dominatione ecclesias eorum firmatas diceris infregisse , & presbyteros tous , invito abbate , & ejusdem loci fratribus , contra romanae ecclesiae privilegia , quibus idem coenobium est munitum , in eis ponere praesumpsisse : nec his contentus , abbatem ipsum , & homines ejus , ad placitandum super hoc in curiam tuam , prout asserunt , praesumptuose traxisti , eisque ob eam rem poeuam molieris infligere , &c. 11. vvilliam thorne , who a mentions this 1139. 4. steph. observes ( which is warranted by the bull it self ) quod iste theobaldus primo abbatem & conventum ad causas trahere conatus est , and is the first i have noted in which th' ecclesiasticks alone did force men to plead in their courts ; which , as it doth prove they then had them , so we may conclude them not long to have been possest of that power : for it is altogether improbable , if that act of king vvilliam had been in his and his sonns time generally practic 't , but some archbishop , in above fifty years , might have attempted as much , if not to the abbot , at least to some other ; as after this the examples are frequent , of which one in the 122 epistle of iohannes sarisburiensis is not unworthy the remembring . symphorian a clergy-man of york , accused one osbert , archdeacon of the same church , before king stephen , the bishops and lords , 1154. for making away vvilliam the late archbishop of that see by poyson . a question grew , to whether court this cause belonged . the king affirmed it to belong to the temporall , for the heynousness of the fact , and because it was first entred upon in his presence . but before the decision stephen dyed , and henry the 2. succeeded ; de cujus manibus ( saith my author ) vix cum summa difficultate , in manu valida , cum indignatione regis & omnium procerum , jam dictam causam ad examen ecclesiasticum revocavimus ; from whence it was by appeal carryed to rome . 12. but what this manus valida should be , that took the case from the king , i cannot imagine : for it is undoubted , in all disputes of this nature , the kings courts have been ever iudges to what court the cause did belong . bracton speaks very clearly ; b iudex ecclesiasticus cum prohibitionem à rege susceperit , supersedere debet in omnicasu , saltem donec constiterit in curia regis ad quem pertineatat jurisdictio : quia si iudex ecclesiasticus aestimare possit an sua esset jurisdictio , in omni casu indifferenter procederet non obstante regia prohibitione , &c. and 1080 vvilliam the first , in a c councell at illebon in normandy , by th' advise of both estates , ecclesiastick and secular , did settle many particulars to belong to the cognizance of the spirituall iudge ; and concludes , that if any thing were further claimed by them , they should not enter upon it , donec in curia regis monstrent quod habere debeant . neither were the lay to molest them in the exercise of ought there mentioned , donec in curia regis monstrent quod episcopi inde habere non debeant . so in both reserving the decision to his own courts , of what pertained to each : in so much as , what that strong hand should be , did thus take this from the king , i must prosesse not to understand . and that our kings had ever an inspection over those courts , is not to be doubted , by the charge against becket , in which henry the 2. urgeth , d quod cuidam iohanni coram ipso litiganti plenam justitiam non exhibuit , & super hoc ad regis praesentiam vocatus , venire contempsit . to which th' archbishop answered , praefato iohanni condignam non defuisse justitiam , & iohannem non legaliter curiam suam infamasse , qui non super evangelium , ut moris est , sed super veterem cantuum codicillum , quem secum tuler at , voluerit pejer are , &c. and for his not attending the king , to give him satisfaction in the point , pleaded th' excuse of sicknesse ; yet for that contempt was adjudged to loose his moveables . by which it is evident , th' archbishop did then e exact oaths of such as were called into his court , that he was to give an account to the king of his carriage in it , who by his constitutions hath ever directed the manner of proceedings in it . see mat. paris anno 1247. pag. 727 , 29. anno 1246. pag. 716. 1. but of this f more hereafter . 13. the conqueror , though he did shew so much complyance with the romanist , as not to deny any thing former kings had acknowledged to the papacy as due , yet farther then g they had gone would in nothing submit unto it : and as they had by their edicts guided the ecclesiastick affaires of this kingdome , so he proceeded in his lawes , h à l gibus sanctae matris ecclesiae sumens exordium , as did his sonne i henry the 1. how far they did conceive this their power to extend in those to matters , nothing can better teach us then the lawes they and such as came after them ( princes against whom no exceptions can lye ) establisht , and usages they maintained as the rights of the kingdome , in opposition of all encroachments whatsoever . 14. to enumerate all these priviledges ( i conceive them with our auncestors better called rights ) i hold impossible , the foundation or ground upon which they are built being that power the divine wisdome hath invested the secular magistrate with , for preservation of his church and people in peace , against all emergencies from whomsoever proceeding ; as the bishops of the province of canterbury writ to thomas becket 1167. k rex à domino constitutus paci providet subjectorum per omnia ; ut hanc conservet ecclesiis , & commissis sibi populis , dignitates regibus ante se debitas & exhibitas sibi vult exhiberi . and this issuing from so great auctority , as in effect the body of all the clergy of the realm , cannot be imagined to be other then the constant opinion of th' english church . in what these rights have been put in practise in opposition to rome ( of which i now treat ) may in some sort be told : but to say these they are , and no other , is that i mean cannot be . so that we may say the affirmative , these they are , but not the negative , others they are not . therefore eadmerus will have it of the conquerour , that l cuncta divina simul & humana ejus nutum expectabant , that is in foro exteriori ; insomuch as , when the clergy 1530. gave the king the title of head of the church , they intended no other then their fore-fathers , when they called him the m defender , patron , governor , n tutor of it . 15. which the french do attribute to their kings with more hard expressions ; o ce que monstre ( says one ) que les evesques de ce temps la , estimerent le roy , assistè de son conseil d' estat , estre apres dieu chef terrien de l' esglise de son royaume , & non pas le pape , in the negative : which another p explains thus , ce n'est point pour cela que je vueille dire , ce que aucuns ount trop indistinctement proferè , que les dits roys & princes souveraignes soient en leurs estats privativement à tous autres , chefs uniques & absolus de l' esglise , & de tous les minister d' icelle ; car pour lereguard de ce que concerne le maniement des choses purement sacrees , come l' administration de la parole de dieu , & des sacrements , & la puissance de lier ou delier , voire de regler en particulier le dedans de chacune esglise , la sur-intendance en appartient aux evesques , & autres chefs de la hierarchie ecclesiastique , a chascun selon leur rang & degr● . then shewing by a comparison , that as the head-architect leaves to his inferior agents the use of such instruments as are proper for their undertakings ; so , il n' appartient poynt au roy de manier les choses sacrees , ny supporter comme l' on dit l' arche d' alliance , ils doivent laisser cela a ceux de la vocation ; mais ils peuvent voire so●● tenuz devant dieu , veiller sans cesse , & avoir l' oeil ouvert a ce que ceux de cest ordre & profession principale , aussi bien que ceux des autres moindres , apportent enloyaute & sain conscience tout soin , diligence , purete , & sincerite , au maniement des charges a eux commises , conformement a leur loix , regles & canons ; lesquels au cas qu' ils serroient negligez , & ●ffacez par la rouille de l' antiquite , ou que par la malice des hommes il fust besoign d' enfaire des noveaux , ils sont tenu user de leur puissance , pourn y sapporter des remedes , soit par leur ordonances & pragmatiques , soit par leurs jugements , arrests , & executions d' iceux . e'est ce qu'en france nos predecesseurs ont tousjours appelle , la police exterieure sur l' esglise , de la quelle les empereurs , roys & princes on t use & jouy sans contredit , tant que l' esglise s'est conservee en sapurete , & qu' aucuns d' icelle ne se sont ingerez , sortants de leurs bornes & l. miles d' usurper les functions royales . insomuch as benigne miletot doth not onely affirm their kings to be q chess , protecteurs , & conservateurs de leur esglise gallicane ; but pag. 657. recites a speech of th' archbishop of vienna made to henry the 4. 1605. in which he did affirm , que le roy estcit le coeur & la teste de l. ur corps . 16. and other headship then this i do not know to have been ever attributed to any of our princes : certainly they did never take on them the exercise of any thing purely sacred , but as supream r head , rulers or governours , under god , by their commissioners ( of which such as bare most sway were ever the spirituality ) to visit , reform , redresse &c. all errours , heresies , schisms , abuses , &c. and for that the rust of antiquity ( as that authour styles it ) had much over-spread the canons of the church , t to assigne sixteen of the clergy , whereof four to be bishops , and as many of the lay , of which four to be learned in the common laws of this realme , to peruse and examineth ' ecclesiasticall laws of long time here used , and to gather , order and compile such laws ecclesiasticall , as shall be thought to his majesty , his said * counsell , and them or the more part of them , to be practised and set forth within this realme . in pursuance of which , the 11. november 5 to of edward the 6. he nominated two bishops , two divines , two doctours of the law , two esquires , to supervise the ecclesiastick laws of this kingdome , and to compile such a body as were fit to be put in practise within his dominions ; whose intendments ( for it past no further ) were after printed by iohn day 1571. and are no other then what the french ( for the manner of doing ) maintain their king might do : neither doth th' inquisition of spain publish any thing of that nature , without th' allowance of their king , as i shall shew u hereafter . 17. so that , in my opinion , the question cannot be , whether princes are not capable of such a right ; but whether it were invested in the crown formerly , and made good by such a continued practise , as might authorise ours to take that title ( when offered by the clergy 1530. ) as well as the french kings have , without incroaching on that power th' ecclesiasticks had , and by our laws ought to exercise in england . now , certain , our kings did in many things go along with the french in causes ecclesiasticall : x rex anglorum , exemplum accipiens ab illis baronibus qui sua statuta sanxerunt in francia , quibus & dominus francorum favorem jam praebuit , & sigillum apposuit , &c. clement the 7. being held prisoner 1527. by th' emperour , the 18 th . of august cardinall woolsy made an agreement with the french , for setling ●h ' ecclesiastick government of each kingdome during the popes captivity . for the french , i shall remit the reader to the y deed which is printed ; but th' english were to be such as should be agreed to , praelatis accitis de mandato & auctoritate praedicti invictissimi angliae regis , whose determinations were to be consensu ejusde invictissimi angliae regis . but where z my lord herbert conceivs this to have been the first taste our king took in governing the clergy , i can no way be of his opinion ; for , without peradventure , the cardinall neither did nor durst have moved one step in making the ecclesiasticks lesse depend on the papacy , then the common law or custome of the realm warranted , knowing he must without that back have lost not onely clement the 7. but all popes and the court of rome , which must and had been his support , on the declining favour of so heady and dangerous a prince as henry the 8 th , had he not cast off both the cardinall and his obedience to that see almost together . but how much he had the clergy before this under his government , the history of a richard hunne is witnesse sufficient : and the rights the conquerour and his successours were ever in contest with the papacy about , and maintained as the laws & customs of the realm , enough shew they did not command th' ecclesiasticks here according to the will of any forraign potentate , nor were meer lookers on , whilst another govern'd the english church : some of which i shall therefore here set down . i. they b admitted none to be taken for pope but by the kings appointment . ii. c none to receive letters from him without shewing them to the king , who caused all words prejudiciall to him or his crown to be renounced by the bringers , or receivers of them . iii. d permitted no councels , but by their liking , to assemble ; which gained the name of convocations ; as that e alwayes hath been and ought to be assembled by the kings writ . iv. f caused some to sit in them might supervise the actions , and legato ex parte regis & regni inhiberent , ne ibi contra regiam coronam & dignitatem aliquid statuere attentaret : and when any did otherwise , he was forced to retract that he had done , as g did peckham ; or were h in paucis servatae , as those of boniface . v. i suffered no synodicall deree to be of force , but by their allowance and confirmation . k rex auditis concilii gestis , consensum praebuit , auctoritate regia & potestate concessit & confirmavit statuta concilii à gulielmo , cantuariensi archiepiscopo , & sanctae romanae ecclesiae legato , apud westmonasterium celebratt . l in hoc concilio , ademendationem ecclesiae anglicanae , assensu domini regis & primorum omnium regni , haec subscripta promulgata sunt capitula , &c. vi. permitted no bishop to m excommunicate , or inflict any ecclesiastick censure on any baron or officer , nisi ejus praecepto . vii . n caused the bishops appear in their courts , to give account why they excommunicated the subject . viii . o caused such as were imprisoned , after fourty dayes standing excommunicate , to be freed by writ , without th' assent of the prelat , or satisfaction giving ; p the king and his iudges communicating with them tam in divinis quam profanis , q and commanding none to shun them , though by the ordinary denounced excommunicate . ix . r suffered no legat enter england but with their leave ; of which before . x. s determined matters of episcopacy , inconsulto romano pontifice . xi . permitted no appeal to rome ; of which before . xii . t bestowed bishopricks on such as they liked , and u translated bishops from one see to another . xiii . erected new bishopricks : so did hen. the 1. 1109. ely , taking it out of lincolne , x carlisle 1133. out of york or rather duresme : but of this before . xiv . y commanded by writ their bishops to residency . xv. z commanded their bishops , by reason of schism , vacancie of the popedome , &c. not to seek confirmation from rome , but the metropolitan to be charged by the kings writ to bestow it on the elected . xvi . a placed by a lay hand clerks in prebendary or parochiall churches , ordinariis penitus irrequisitis . and it is not here unworthy the remembring , that vv m lyndwood , a very learned canonist , who writ about an 100. yeares before henry the 8 ths difference with clement the 7. finding the crown in possession of this particular not agreeing with the rules of the canon law , is so perplext , as in the end he finds no way to make the act valid , b but that he doth it by papall priviledge : for if by prescription , episcopo s●iente & tolerante , it could not be good ; for though the king might confer the temporalls of the church , non tamen potest dare jure suo potestatem circa spiritualia , viz. circa ea quae pertinent ad regimen ecclesiasticum , & ministrationem sacramentorum & sacramentalium , nec non circa ecclesiasticae jurisdictionis exercitium , & hujusmodi , quae jure spiritualia sunt ; nec in hoc casu potest sibi prodesse praescriptio etiam longissimi temporis , quia talia spiritualia non possunt per regem possideri , & , per consequens , nec ut transeant sub sua potestate possunt praescribi , nec consuetudine introduci , &c. in which he will havean hard contest with divers french and italians , who maintain , c che tutte le raggioni che si possono acquistare per dispensa del papa , si possono acquistar anco per consuetudine , la quale sopravenga contraria alla legge : that a prince may prescribe for such acts as he can acquire by the popes dispensation . xvii . d prohibited the lay yielding obedience , or answering by oath to their ecclesiastick superiour inquiring de peccatis subditorum : which i take to have been in cases not properly of their cognizance , not of witnesses either in causes matrimoniall or testamentary . xviii . i shall conclude these particulars with one observation in mat. paris ; where the ecclesiasticks , having enumerated severall cases in which they held themselves hardly dealt with , adde , e that in all of them , if the spirituall iudge proceeded contrary to the kings prohibition , he was attached , & , appearing before the iustices , constrained to produce his proceedings , that they might determine to which court the cause belonged : and if found to pertain to the secular , the spirituall iudges were blamed , and , on confession they had proceeded after the prohibition , were amerced ; but denying it , were compell'd to make it good by the testimony of two * vile varlets , but refusing such purgation , were imprisoned , till by oath they freed themselves to the iustices ; that being cleared even by the lay , they had no satisfaction for their expence and trouble . by which , by the way , it is manifest how much the kings courts had the superintendency over the ecclesiastick . 18. these , and many other particulars of the like nature , daily exercised , notwithstanding the clamour of some ecclesiasticks , more affecting their own party then the rights of the crown , make there can be no scruple , but the english did ever understand the outward policy of this church , or government of it in foro exteriori , to have much depended on the king ; and therefore the writs for summoning parliaments , expresse the cause of his calling them to be , pro quibusdam arduis , urgentibus negotiis , nos , statum , & defensionem regni nostri angliae & ecclesiae anglicanae concernentibus , ⸫ or , as our bishops have sometimes exprest it in the rolls of parliament , à l' onour & reverence de dieu & de seinte esglise , & al salvation & amendement de son roialme , &c. likewise the commons , that their gift of the 9th sheaf , &c. to edw. the 3. to have been for his defence of the kingdome , & de seinte esglise d' engleterre : rot. parliament . 15. ed. 3. n. 25. according to which our kings joyned both together , professing their care for amending the church to be equall with that of the commonwealth . f item fait assavoir , que nostre tressoveraigne seign r le roy , eiantz grande volunte & desir de l'estate de son esglise , & de son royalme , en les choses ou mesteir est d' amendement , al honor de dieu , & pur la pees & la commune profit de seinte esglise d' engleterre , come de tout son royalme , d' el ' advis & assent des seig rs esperituells , &c. ad fait , &c. in pursuance of which interest residing in the crown , the lords and commons under rich. the 2. fearing the opinions called lollardy might prevail , g petierunt à rege de istis remedium apponi , ne forte archa totius fidei ecclesiae talibus impulsionibus in illius temporibus , pro defectu gubernaculi , irremediabiliter quateretur . upon whose desires , he commanded th' archbishop of cant. and his other bishops , ut officium suum singuli i● suis dioe cesibus secundum jura canonica acrius & ferventius exercerent , delinquentes castigarent , librosque eorum anglicos plenius examinarent , errata exterminarent , populumque in unitatem fidei orthodoxae reducere studerent , ecclesiamque urticis , [ & ] vepribus destoratam liliis & rosis ornarent , &c. after which , the said authour records a commission , by which his majesty , as defender of the catholick faith , did impower certain to seize upon hereticall books , and bring them before his councell : and such as after proclamation shall be found to hold such opinions , being called and examined before two commissioners ( who were of the clergy ) and lawfully convicted thereof , to be by his majesties ministers committed to the next prison . ⸪ fourteen years after which , the commons shew hen. the 4th the parliament might be compared to a masse , in which th' archbishop of cant. began th' office , reading th' epistle and expounding the gospel , ( which , it seems , they took to be the part of the ecclesiastick , as did the ⸫ saxons before ) & à la mesne qe feust la sacrifice d' estre offeriz à dieux pur touz christiens , le roy mesmes à cest parlement , pour accomplir cellemesne , plusieurs foitz avoit declarez pleinement a toutz ses lieges , coment sa volunte feust , qe la foy de seint esglise feust governez en maniere come il ' ad este en temps de ses nobles progenitors , & come il est affirme par seint esglise , par les seints doctours , & par seint escriture , &c. and a little after , shewing they the commons were onely to say , deo gratias , which they were obliged to do for three reasons , the second of which is , pur c●o qe la ou la foy de seint esglise , par malvaise doctrine , feust en point d' avoir este anientz , en grand subversion du roy & du royalme , mesme nostre seig r le roy ent ad fait & ordeignez bon & joust remede , en destruction de tiel doctrine , & de la sect d' ycel , peront ilz sont ensement tenuz de dire cel parole deo gratias . by all these it must be granted , they did hold the chief care of the english church to have depended ( in the outward policy of it ) on the prince ; or else that they did speak and do very unadyisedly in attributing so much unto his care of it , and providing that he might be supplyed to defend it , without at all mentioning any other to whose care it belonged . 19. neither did these expressions and petitions passe the commons onely , or the clergy over-ruled by the numbers of the temporality ; but the bishops by themselves acknowledged how much it stood in his m tios care to provide against any novelties creeping into the english church , and that it might enjoy the rights and liberties belonging to it : and therefore , when the said doctrine of lollardy continued encreasing , they , in the names praelatorum & cleri regni angliae , petition h henry the 4 th . quatenus — inclitissimorum progenitorum & antecessorum vestrorum laudabilia vestigia graciose considerantes , dignetur vestra regia celsitudo pro conservatione dictae ecclesiae anglicanae , ad dei laudem , vestrique meritum , & totius regni praedicti prosperitatem & honorem , & pro hujusmodi dissentionibus , divisionibus , dampnis & periculis evit indis , super novitatibus & excessibus praedictis in praesenti parliamento providere de remedio opportuno &c. did not these then hold it the office of the king , as that his progenitors had ever done ; to provide , no dissensions , scandalls , divisions might arise in the church , the catholick faith might be truely conserved and susteined ? and what other did any of our princes ever challenge or assume ? 20. when the clergy likewise went at any time beyond their bounds , or were negligent performers of their duties , the subject upon all occasions had recourse unto his m ty , as to whose care the seeing what was amiss redrest did especially belong : as i when th' ecclesiastick courts were grievous for the fees , k or their pecuniary pennances too heavy , when they were opprest by papall provisions ( of which before ) when through the absence of their curat they were not so well taught &c. ⸫ when the frequency of the writ de excommunicato capiendo ▪ made it burthensome , .˙.˙ when men were cited by them on causes neither matrimoniall nor testamentary , and appearing were not allowed a copy of the libell against them . in which case the kings answer is not unworthy the repeating , shewing clearly , he directed how they should proceed ; le roy voet que a quel heure la copie de le libel est grantable par la ley , q'●l soit grauntè & liverè a la partie , sanz d●fficulee . it is true , kings would refer matters of that nature to their bishops , unto whose care under them it did especially belong : so richard the 2. being l petitioned in point of residency , answered , il appartient aux offices des evesques , & le roy voet qu' ils facent lour office & devoirs &c. m his successor being again prest in the same kind , gives his command thus , facent les ordinaires lour office & devoirs : & per cause qe les pluralites q' ont este grantees devant ces heures sont & ount este la greindre cause de l' absence des tiels curats , y plest au roy nostre seigr. de l' advis & assent des seig rs ▪ en parlement , es●rire par ses honourables lettres a nostre seint pier le pape , de revoker & repeller toutes les pluralites generalement , & qe d' es ore en avant nulle pluralite soit graunte a ascuny en temps a venir . but the pope , it seems , giving no satisfaction in the particular , the n 11. hen. 4. the commons again petition , that the riches of the kingdome being in the hands of church-men , those livings upon which the incumbent of common right ought to reside , half of the true value should remain to himself , but the other to the king. to which the answer is , geste matiere appertient a seinte esglise , & quant a la residence , remede ent fust purveuz en la darrain convocation . yet this matter of non-residence still molesting the commonwealth , 3. hen. 6. the king tells them , by th' advise of the lords of parliament , o he had delivered their bill to my lord of canterbury , charging him to pourvey of remedy for his province , and semblably shall write to the church of york for that province . by which we may see the king , archbishop , and convocation did conceive themselves to have a power of redressing things in this church , which yet in civility they thought ●it p first to acquaint the pope with , as a spirituall doctor or patriarch , however of great esteem , yet not endued with a power of commanding in this church otherwise then the lawes of the kingdome , the contracts with the papacy did bear . 21. now it cannot be doubted that all these petitions of the commons , and sundry more which may be produced , had been by them vainly prefer'd , had they not taken the king to have been vested with a power of redressing things blameable in the government of the church . but when we say the prince , as the principall , without whom nothing is done , may be rightly termed head in the act of reformation ; our meaning is not , that he will deal in points of ecclesiastick cognizance without the advise of his bishops , and other learned of the clergy : we know , in things proper q iosuah is to take counsell of eleazer , and the kings of this nation have ever done so . 22. when edgar intended the advancing christi gloriam , he chose him three bishops to be his ⸫ patres spirituales and consiliarios . but to speak of later times : r when the commons endeavoured a reformation of some things in the church , hen. the 8 th . would not answer their desires , till he had first acquainted the spirituality . when he intended to publish a s book of the principall articles and points of our faith , with the declaration . — of other expedient points , and also for the lawfull rites and ceremonies to be observed within this realme , he ordained it to be by th' archbishops and sundry bishops of both provinces , and also a great number of the best learned , honestest , and most vertuous sort of doctors of divinity , men of discretion , judgement , and good disposition , &c. and edward the sixth minding a farther reformation of some usages in the administration of the eucharist , he caused it to be t made by the most grave and learned of his realm , for that purpose by his directions assembled at windfor ; who afterwards , u for taking away divers and sundry differing forms and fashions had formerly been used in sundry churches of england and wales , appoynted th' archbishop of canterbury , and certain of the most learned and discreet bishops , and other learned men of the realm , to consider of the premises , who , by the ayd of the holy ghost , with one uniform agreement concluded on and set forth the book of common prayer &c. upon which the two houses of parliament , considering as well the most godly travell of the kings highnesse , — in gathering and collecting the said archbishops , bishops and learned men together , as &c. do give to his highnesse most hearty and lowly thanks &c. so that it is apparent , the king , in composing this book , did not assume to himself , or the parliament attribute unto him any other then assembling of the bishops and other learned men together , to take their consultations . 23. and they observing the great diversity in saying and singing in severall churches , the difficulty of finding what was proper for each day , ( apt to breed confusion ) reduced the publick service of the church to one form more facile and of better edification , following therein the examples of divers holy bishops and others : for if y guarinus abbot of st albans , in the office used in his church about 1190 , might superflua resecare , to reduce the prayers there to one form , if z agobardus in france might amputare superflua vel levia &c. if a osmund bishop of salisbury in england , quoniam singulae fere dioeceses in statis & precariis horis dicendis variabant , ad hanc varietatem tollendam , & ut quasi absolutum quoddam precandi , quo omnes uti possent , exemplar exstaret , eas in eum fere ordinem & commodam rationem , quam hodie omnes prope angliae , cambriae , & hiberniae ( viz. the course of salisbury ) ecclesiae sequuntur , magno & prudenti rerum ex sacris scripturis , & probatis ecclesiae historiis delectu , distribuit & digessit ; if these , i say , might do it on their own motion , there is no question , such of the clergy as were appointed by the king , might on his desire take it into consideration , and remove matters offensive , or lesse to edification . 24. neither did queen elizabeth at the beginning of her reign b alter some passages in it , but by the opinions of divines eruditis & moderatis ; to whom was added a learned knight sr thomas smith , to whose care the supervising of it had by the house of commons been committed the second of edward the sixth , and therefore knew better then any other to give an account of that book . nor did her self , or the house of lords use differing wayes , c when the commons at other times have sought some change in the ecclesiastick government ; as the 23. and 27. of her reign , where though the lord treasurer made a short beginning , yet he left the satisfactory answers to be given them by th' archbishop of york . insomuch as we may safely conclude , when the clergy in convocation styled henry the 8th ecclesiae anglicanae protectorem unicum , & supremum dominum , & , quantum per christi leges licet , supremum caput , they added nothing new unto him but a title ; for he and his successors after it , did never exercise any auctority in causes ecclesiastick , not warranted by the practise of former kings of the nation . by all which the second question remains sufficiently proved , that our kings were originally endued with auctority to cause the english church be reformed by th' advice of their bishops , and other of the clergy , as agreeing with the practise of all ages . for who introduced the opinion of transubstantiation ? made it an article of faith ? barr'd the lay of the cup ? priests of marriage ? who restored the mass in queen maries dayes before any reconciliation made with rome ? but the ecclesiasticks of this kingdome under the prince for the timebeing , who commanded or connived at it . chap. vi. how the kings of england proceeded in their separation from rome . 1 it being by what is already said undoubted , the clergy called together by the prince , or meeting by his allowance , have ever had a power of reforming this church , commanding things juris positivi in it , and likewise dispensing with them , and that the statute 24. hen. 8. cap. 12. that saith in effect as much , is no other then a declaration of the common law , that is the custome of the realm ; the next enquiry will be , for acquitting the church of england in point of schism , how this separation from rome was made . 2. henry the 8th having long pursued a cause matrimoniall with clement the 7. who shewed so much complyance to determine it in his favour , as he sent cardinall campeius hither to joyn with wolsey the kings creature in the businesse , and upon the emperours successe in italy , the cause , after many delayes , being revoked to rome , the king , upon the opinions of many forreign divines of the invalidity of his marriage with queen katharine , caused the case to be determined by the english church : which judgement yet he would have in some measure submitted to the court of rome , so as he might have given the persons to whom it was delegated by the pope full information , and the cardinalls of the imperiall faction excluded having any part in the decision . but clement hearing what had past in england , with more then ordinary hast determins the cause against him : which how much it would irritate any prince of so great power , and so high a spirit as our henry , i shall leave others to judge . and here i might alledge many forreign examples , of those who upon lesse indignities have stopt all entercourse with rome , as * lewis the 12. and henry the 2. of france , if i had undertook to write an apology for him . 3. the king , upon the advertisement of these proceedings by the pope , which was at the beginning of the year 1534 , falls first to those courses his auncestors had formerly done , when they had occasion to know how they ought to comport themselves in any thing towards rome , which was to have the advise of the english church ; and thereupon wrote to the universities , great monasteries and churches of the kingdome , & the 18. may 1534. to the university of oxford , † requiring them , like men of virtue and profound literature , to diligently intreat , examine , and discusse a certain question , viz. an romanus episcopus habeat majorem aliquam jurisdictionem sibi collatam in sacra scriptura in hoc regno angliae , quam alius quivis externus episcopus ; and to return their opinion in writing under their common seal , according to the meer and sincere truth of the same , &c. to which , after mature deliberation , and examination not onely of the places of holy scripture , but of the best interpreters , for many dayes , they returned answer the 27. iune 1534. ( without all peradventure according to the ancient tenet of the english ) romanum episcopum majorem aliquam jurisdictionem non habere sibi à deo collatam in sacra scriptura in hoc regno angliae , quam alium quemvis externum ▪ episcopum . of this answer i have thought fit to make particular mention , ( though assented to by all the english clergy ) because oxford hath been ever a held aemula parisiensis , ecclesiae fundamentum , b fountain & mere de nostre foy chrestiene , as i formerly touched : whose opinion the english church hath therefore highly esteemed , and sought on all occasions of this nature ; of which to give some examples . 4. upon the election of vrban the 6. france , scotland , flanders , and divers other parts adhering to clement , who resided at avignon , c the french king 1395. caused a meeting of the clergy of his dominions , to search whether had the better right to the papacy : whose judgment was for clement ; which under the seal of the university of paris was sent to richard the 2. who thereupon fecit convocationem oxoniae de peritioribus theologis tam regentibus quam non regentibus totius regni , and they on the contrary judged vrban to have the better title ; whose opinion under the seal of the university of oxford returned to the king was by him transmitted into france . 1408 , d in concilio cleri celebrato londoniis , assistentibus doctoribus vniversitatum cantabrigiae & oxoniae , tractatum est de censu & obedientia papae subtrahendis vel non subtrahendis : about which time twelve of the university of oxford , on the archbishops desire , in the name of the rest , examined the books & doctrines of wickliffe , & sent their resolutions to a synod at london in an epistle yet e extant . by all which it is manifest , how much their opinions were esteemed in this kingdome . and i hold it undoubted , a prince following so great advise , chalked out to him by the practise of his ancestors , could not be guilty of so heinous a crime as schism , arising onely from disobedience to any spirituall superior whatsoever . f gerson sayes , a private person runs into no contempt of the keyes in divers cases by him enumerated ; as one , dum dicit aliquis juristarum vel theologorum juxta conscientiam suam , quod hujusmodi sententiae non sunt timendae vel tenendae , & hoc praesertim si observetur informatio seu ca●tela debita , ne sequatur scandalum pusillorum , qui aestimant papam esse unum deum : and navar , the greatest canonist of his time , g qui unius doctoris eruditione ac animi pietate celebris auctoritate ductus fecerit , aliquid excusatur , etiamsi forte id non esset justum , & alii contrarium tenerent . and to this purpose many more doctors may be alleged . 5. this as it was done by him , so he was led unto it by the example of his predecessors , as i have partly toucht before ; and shall therefore alledge no other , but that in the disputes between becket and henry the 2. the archbishop endeavouring to interesse alexander the 3. in the difference , that prince h caused it to be written unto him , si juri vestro vel honori praejudicatur in aliquo , id se totius ecclesiae regni sui consilio correcturum in proximo pollicetur : and a little after , i dominus rex plurimum sibi justificare videtur , cum in omnibus quae dicta sunt , ecclesiae regni sui consilio simul & judicio se pariturum pollicetur . and this the often repeating of it , not onely in a particular letter of the bishop of london , but of all the bishops of the province of canterbury , both to the k pope and becket , enough assure us how undoubted it was in those dayes , that our kings following the advise of the english church , did proceed on safe grounds for their justification in such quarrells . 6. neither was the opinion returned by these divines so differing from the writings of other learned men , as might make them any way guilty of schism . l gerson speaking of the severall degrees of divine truths , places for the first such as are expresse in scripture , secondly those that are by evident consequence deduced from thence , thirdly such as being delivered by christ , have been by the constant tradition of the church derived to us , of which he holds this proposition , vniversalis ecclesia pontifici romano subjecta sit ; and adds , non enim posset evidenter aut per consequentiam pure de fide ex legibus primi generis humana deductione fulciri , &c. and ⸫ contarenus , in a small tract de potestate pontificis , of that question sayes , an auctoritas illa & potestas , qua pontifex maximus fungitur , sit ei consensu quodam hominis tributa , an potius divinitus tradita ; qua de re hisce temporibus maximos tumultus excitatos esse perspicimus , nec etiam veriti sint viri in omni disciplinarum genere celebres , ac in christianae theologiae studio illustres , in magno hominum conventu asserere , hoc jus pontificis humanume esse ; & then adds that he ab horum hominum sententia maxime dissentire , ac prope compertum habere , divinitus concessum esse pontifici jus illud &c. so that this learned cardinall was not altogether resolved in the point , but as a disputable question had it prope compertum . the truth of which i leave him to dispute with the orientall christians . it is manifest , m francis the first was of the contrary judgement ; and our countryman n stapleton delivers it as a catholick tenet of former times , ( undoubtedly agreeing with that of the english church ) non divino , sed humano jure , & positivis ecclesiae decretis primatum romani pontificis niti &c. 7. but i return to our * king , who now fortifyed by the opinion of the universities , publick disputations in the convocation , and severall precedents of former princes his predecessors , in his rights , whereas the parliament before in some particulars restrained the profits of rome , as in the payments of annates , peter-pence , making appeals to it , whose beginnings with us i have formerly noted , did o the 26. hen. 8. 1533 , declare his maty , his heirs and successors , kings of this realm , shall have full power & auctority from tyme to tyme to visit , represse , redresse , &c. all such errors , heresies , abuses , &c. which by any manner spirituall authority or jurisdiction may be lawfully reformed , repressed , ordered , redressed , &c. this the court of rome interpreted a falling off from the church , and the english no other then a declaration of that right had ever resided in the crown , and which i believe it will be a difficult task to disprove them in . 8. for those two articles p paulus 3. accuses the king of , as hereticall and schismaticall , viz. quod romanus pontifex caput ecclesiae & christi vicarius non erat , & quod ipse in anglica ecclesia supremum caput existebat &c. for the first , i never heard it affirmed by the king in that generality the words import ; for the pope is a temporall prince , as well as a spirituall father ; and so far as i know he never denyed him to be the head of the church of his own dominions , nor of france and spain &c. if those kingdomes will admit him to so great a preeminence : the thing he onely stood upon is , that he was not so instituted by christ universall bishop , and had alone from him such an omnipotency of power , as made him absolute monarch in effect of the universall church , and was so in england . for his being vicar of christ in that sense other bishops may be said to be his vicegerents , ( as q before ) i do not see how it can be well denyed him ; but that this vicarship did import the giving him that power he did then exercise here , is what the church of england hath ever constantly denied . as for the kings being head of church , i have before shewed he neither took it , nor the parliament gave it , in other sense then the french have alwayes attributed it to their princes : neither for ought i find was it so much sought by king henry , as prest on him by the clergy , of which the bishop of rochester was one that subscrib●d to it ; and his ancestors did the same things before , he did after , under the names of protectors , tutors , ⸫ christi vicarii , domini agricolae , &c. 9. for the other particulars mentioned in the bull , as his beheading the bishop or cardinall of rochester , the burning of beckets bones , the taking the treasure and ornaments at his shrine , to which may be added the suppressing , and converting into lay hands the monasteries of the kingdome , i shall not say much , having not taken on me to defend that princes actions . yet for the taking off the head of rochester ( if he were convict of treason ) i must give the answer r of edward the 3. to the clergy in that kind , en droict de clerks convictz de treason ; purceo qe le roy , & toutz ses progenitors ount este seisis tut temps de faire jugement & execution de clercz convictz de treson devers ▪ le roy & sa royale mageste , come de droict de la corone , si est avis au roy , qe la ley en tien cas ne se poet changer : and then he cannot be said to have dyed other wise then by law . as for the goods and ornaments of churches by him layd hold on , it is certain , his predecessors in their extremities had shew'd him the way ; as the s conquerour , who took all the ready money was found in religious houses ; t richard the first , who took all , to the very chalices of churches , and yet th' archbishop afterwards u regio munimine septus — universos monachorum ( to wit , of christ church ) redditus & oblationes tumbae beati martyris thomae fecit saisiari in manu regis ; x and edward the first 1296 , fecit omnia regni monasteria perscrutari , & pecuniam inventam londonias apportari , fecitque lanas & corias arrestari , &c. and in those dayes bishops did tell kings , y the saurus ecclesiae vester est , nec absque vestra conscientia debuit amoveri : to which the king , verum est , the saurus noster est ad defensionem terrae contra hostes peregrinos &c. and perhaps it would be no hard labour to shew , all princes , not onely here , but elsewhere , to have had ( how justly i will not determine ) a like persuasion . and he then being excommunicated by paulus 3. for maintaining what the crown had ever been in possession of , can no way be said to have departed from the church ; but the pope to have injuriously proceeded against him , who maintained onely the just rights and liberties of his kingdome , according to his coronation oath . 10. and this is the case , and fully answers ( so far as it appears to me ) whatsoever can be objected against the reformation begun by him , or made more perfect by edward the 6. for the manner of doing it , viz. that they , as supreme princes of this kingdome , had a right to call together their own clergy , and with their advise , to see the church reformed by them . and if otherwise , i should desire to know how the masse without any intermission was restored by queen mary : for it is manifest , she returned the use of it immediately after her brothers death , & yet cardinall pool reconciled not this kingdome to rome till the 30th of november above a year after , and then too * on such conditions onely as the parliament approved ; during which space , she as queen gave a directions to the ordinaries how they should carry themselves in severall particulars ; which as it is probable she did by th' advice of her bishops , so there is no reason to condemn the like proceedings in edward the 6. 11. i have before shewed how far the royal power went in compiling the book of common prayer : for a catechism published by the same prince , it being composed by a learned person , presented to his maty , and by him committed to the scrutiny of certain bishops and other learned men , quorum judicium ( sayes b his maty ) magnam apud nos authoritatem habet , after their allowance it was by him recommended to be publickly taught in schools . likewise the articles for taking away diversity of opinions in points of religion , were agreed upon in a synod at london by the bishops and other learned men , & regia authoritate in lucem editi . the king in framing them taking no farther on himself , then he had in the book of common prayer . and queen mary , though she quitted the title of head of the church ( which yet she did not so suddenly as saunders intimates ) did in effect as much . so that hitherto there is no way of fixing any schism on the english church , for neglect of obedience , it having been eversubject to the archbishop of canterbury and others its lawfull superiors , restoring to him the ancient right belonged to his chair , of being their spirituall pastor c next and immediately under christ iesus . but the kingdome being re-united to the see of rome by queen mary , though what i have said doth in a good part free it of schism , yet in respect the reformation i onely took upon me to defend was made by queen elizabeth , and continued since , it will be necessary to make some more particular mention how it did passe . chap. vii . how the reformation was made under queen elizabeth . 1. elizabeth , the daughter of henry the 8th by queen anne bolen , being received by all the estates of the kingdome , ( assembled in parliament ) and proclaimed queen , caused her sisters ambassador , sr edward kerne , then residing at rome , to give an account of this her being called to the crown to paulus 4 tus the pope ; who being in union with france , and out with the house of austria then strictly joyned with england , and both at odds with the french , told him , either perswaded by them , or upon his own heady disposition , a england was a fee of the church of rome ; that she could not succeed , as illegitimate ; that he could not go against the declarations of clement the 7. and paulus 3 ius ; that her assuming the name and government without him , was so great an audacity , she deserved not to be hearkned to : but he being willing to proceed paternally , if she would renounce her pretensions , and freely remit her self to his arbitrement , he would do what lay in his power with the dignity of the apostolick see. a strange reply to a civil message , were it not derived to us by an unquestionable hand , and that it came from paulus 4 ius , to whom it was not an unusuall saying , b that hee would have no prince his compagnion , but all subjects under hys foot . upon this unwillingnesse to acknowledge her queen at rome , th' archbishop of york ( who had before c affirmed no man could doubt of the justnesse of her title ) and the rest of the bishops refused to crown her . as for that d some write , it was because they had evident probabilities she intended eyther not to take , or not to keep the oath was then to be administred unto her , especially in the particular of not maintaining holy churches lawes , in respect she had shewed an aversenesse to some ceremonies , as commanding the bish ▪ of carlile not to elevate the consecrated host. ( who stoutly refused her ) and out of fear she would refuse in the time of her sacre the solemn divine ceremony of vnction ; these are certainly without any colour , and framed since . for as for the last , the ceremony of anointing , she had it performed ; as had king iames who succeeded her , who e would not have his queen crowned in scotland without it . for the other , it is altogether improbable that he to whom the command was by her given , would of all the rest have assented to crown her , had he conceived that a cause why it might have been denied : neither indeed did she alter any thing materiall in the service of the church , till after the conference at westminister . 1559. the 31. march , and the parliament ended . 2. to passe therefore by these , as excuses found out after the deed done , the true reason being ( no question ) something came from the pope , in pursuance of that answer he had given her agent ; the queen seeing she could expect nothing from the papacy , laboured to make all safe at home , or , to use her own phrase , to take care of her own house ; and therefore ( as she had reason ) desired to be assured of her subjects fidelity , by propounding an oath to certain of them , ( which is seldome a tie to other then honest minds . ) but the way ( mens minds distracted in points of religion , the f law of henry the 8. ( extinguishing the auctority of the bishop of rome ) being very severe , for securing himself , in bringing such as did but extoll the said auctority , for the first offence , within the compass of a praemunire , and that refused to take it , of treason , ) was not easy to be pitcht upon : besides styling the king head of the church , which many made a scruple at ; to g which effect a bill being presented to the house of commons the 9. of february , after many arguments had upon it , the 13. of february upon the second reading it was absolutely dasht , and upon great consideration taken the 14. febr. a committee appointed to draw a new bill , in which an especiall care was taken for restoring onely the ancient jurisdiction of the crown , and the queen neither styled supreme head , nor the penalty of refusing the oath other , then the being excluded from such places of honour and profit as they held in the common-wealth : yet with this proviso , that he who had an estate of inheritance in a temporall office , & refused to take the said oath , did after upon better perswasion conform himself , should be restored unto the said estate ; and that such as should maintain or defend the auctority , preeminence , power or jurisdiction , spirituall or ecclesiasticall , of any forreign prince , prelate , person , state or potentate whatsoever ( not naming the pope , as her father had done ) should be three times convict before he suffered the pains of death . 3. this bill , which no doubt the popes carriage drew on , being expedited in the house of commons , received reformation by the lords , committed the 13. march to the lord marquess of winchester , lord treasurer , the duke of norfolk , the earls of vvestmorland , shrewsbury , rutland , sussex , penbrook , viscount mountague ; bishops , exeter , carlisle ; barons , clynton admirall , morley , rich , willoughby , north , no one of them then noted for protestantisme ; the 18. march past the lords , none dissenting but 8. bishops , the earl of shrewsbury , viscount mountague , and the abbot of vvestminster : and the same day sent to the house of commons , who upon perusall found again what to amend it in ; so as it had not it's perfection in both houses till saturday the 6th of may ( when the parliament ended the monday following ) at which time onely viscount mountague & the interessed clergy opposed it . by which it cannot be questioned , but the generality of the lords did interpret that law , no other then , as indeed it was , a restoring the crown to it 's ancient rights ; for if otherwise , without doubt there would have been as great an opposition at least made against it , as some other statutes which past that parliament met with , that the marquess of vvinchester , the lords morley , stafford , dudley , vvharton , rich , north , joyned with the earls of shrewsbury , viscount mountague , and the prelats , to have stopt . 4. but whereas some were induced to think by the generality of the words , that affirm her highness to be supreme governour as well in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes as temporall , as if it had been an usurping upon the sacred function in the interior ( as i may say ) of the church , properly belonging to them in holy orders , her maty the same year h did declare , she did not challenge any other auctority then was challenged and lately used by king henry the 8th and edw. 6. which is , and was of ancient time due to th' imperiall crown of this realme ; that is , under god to have the soveraignty and rule over all manner of persons born within these her realms , &c. and that to be the onely sense of the oath she caused to be confirmed the next i parliament ; at which time a synod being held , for avoiding diversity of opinions , and establishing of consent touching true religion &c. it did expresly declare , k they did not give to our princes the ministring either of gods word or the sacraments , — but that onely prerogative is given in holy scripture by god himself , that is , that they should rule all estates and degrees committed to their charge by god , whether they be ecclesiasticall or temporall , and restrain with the civill sword the stubborn and evil-doers , &c. and these articles were likewise confirmed by parliament 13. eliz. cap. 12. so that no man can doubt this to have been other then an acknowledgement , what princes had done formerly in all ages might be justly continued ; not an introductory of a new law , but the assertion of the old right of our kings . 5. another matter of great weight then likewise expedited was , the settling the publick service of the church in one uniform way . king edward the 6. intending such a reformation as might serve for edification , caused certain pious and learned men to meet together , who ( as it seems ) taking for their pattern the practise of the primitive times , casting out of the liturgies then used such particulars as were any way offensive , shew'd their scope to be , what they pretended , to reform , not make a new church or service ; and thereupon had , by the aid of the holy ghost , ( l as the act of parliament speaks ) concluded on , and publisht the book of common prayer , with a form of administration of the holy communion , commonly called the mass. but nothing humane is perfect at first : this book some few years after received in his time alteration , and the word mass ( i know not why more offensive in it then the m augustane confession ) expunged , with some other phrases in it . 6. but for the better understanding how queen elizabeth found this church , it will not be amiss to look a little back . henry the 8. dying in ianuary 154 6 / 7 , leaving the roman service , with some alterations not greatly considerable in it , the wisdome of the state ( however intending a farther reformation ) was not immediately to abolish it ; so as the lords meeting in parl nt . 1547. november the 4. though they had the mass sung in english , yet the liturgy of the church was not common in that language till after easter 1548. this session continuing till december 23. restored the communion in both kinds , upon which certain learned men by appointment met at vvindsor , to consider of a decent form for the administration of it ; which in march his maty gave out backt with a proclamation , so as at easter it began ( without compulsion of any , ) to be put in practise , and after easter , severall parochiall churches to celebrate divine service in english , which at vvhitsuntide was by command introduced into paul's ; but hitherto no book of common prayer extant , onely the manner of administring the holy eucharist somewhat altered . 7. during this while , the archbishop of cant. 6. bishops , 3. deans doctors , and 3. other onely doctors , were busied in reforming the publick liturgy of the church , iohn calvin of geneva , a person then of high esteem , advertised of it , thereupon wrote to the duke of somerset the 22. october 1548 , giving his judgement in these a words [ quod ad formulam precum & rituum ecclesiasticorum , valde probo ut certa illa extet , à qua pastoribus discedere in functione sua non liceat , tam ut consulatur quorundam simplicitati & imperitiae , quam ut certius ita conslet omnium inter se ecclesiarum consensus , postremo etiam ut obviam eatur desultoriae quorundam levitati qui novationes quasdam affectant . ] and taking notice of the form already had for celebrating the communion , adds this , audio recitari isthic in coenae celebratione orationem pro defunctis , neque vero hoc ad purgatorii papistici approbationem referri satis s●io , neque etiam me latet proferri posse antiquum ritum mentionis defunctorum faciendae , ut eo modo communio fidelium omnium in unum corpus conjunctorum declaretur ; sed obstat invictum illud argumentum , nempe coenam domini adeo sacrosanctam esse , ut ullis hominum additamentis eam conspurcare sit nefas . 8. this letter received about the * beginning of the parliament , which met the 24. of november 1548. may have been the cause of deferring th' exhibition of it to the house of commons till the 19. december 1548. when the consideration of it was referred to sr thomas smith , his maties secretary , and a very learned knight , who returned it back again the 19. ianuary , having kept it by him a full moneth ; after which it was expedited and printed in march following , and the 6th of april 1549. the mass by proclamation removed . but this book was not so perfect , as it yielded no exceptions , whether just or not i shall not hear examine , i know learned men have judged variously : it shall suffice me to say , it was again revised by bucer ( a great patron of discipline , and martyr , both in england , ) and reprinted 1552. and to ought in or of this second edition during king edwards reign i have not heard any protestant did ever except . 9. in queen maries time divers learned men retired from the heat of persecution , and by the favour of the magistrate permitted a church 1554. at frankford , laboured to retain this liturgy ; whom knox , vvhittingham , and some others opposed so far , as one haddon desired to be their pastor , excused himself , and mr. chambers coming for that end from zurick , finding it would not be allowed , retired back again , and xvi . learned men then at strasburgh ( amongst which this haddon , sandis afterward archbishop of york , grindall of canterbury , christopher goodman famous for his book of obedience ) remonstrated unto them , that by much altering the said book they should seem to condemn the framers , now ready with the price of their bloud to confirm it , should give their adversaries occasion to accuse their doctrine of imperfection , themselves of mutability , and the godly to doubt of what they had been perswaded ; that the use of it permitted they would joyn with them by the first of february : their letter bearing date the 23. of november 1554. 10. but nothing could move them to be like saint paul , all things to all that he might gain some , or relent any thing of their former rigour ; onely a type of it drawn into latine was sent to calvin for his judgement , who returned an answer the 18. ianuary 1554 / 5. somewhat resembling the delphick oracles , that the book did not contein the purity was to be wisht ; that there were in it ineptias , yet tolerabiles ; that as he would not have them be ultra modum rigidos , so he did admonish others ne sibi in sua inscitia nimis placeant , &c. and here i cannot deny to have sometime wondred , why in these disputes the opinion of peter martyr , then at strasburgh , a person for learning no lesse eminent , was never required : but i have since heard him to have been alwayes a profest patron of it , as one by whose care and privity it had been reformed . 11. whilst matters went thus in germany , certain learned men at geneva were composing a form for the use of the english church there , which 1556. was printed by crispin , with this title , ratio & forma publice orandi deum atque administrandi sacramenta &c. in anglorum ecclesiam , quae genevae colligitur , recepta , cum judicio & comprobatione d. iohannis calvini . but this did not satisfy all , for mr. lever coming to frankford to be their minister , requested they would trust him to use such an order as should be godly , yet without any respect to the book of geneva or any other . but his endeavours were soon rejected , as not fit for a right reformed church , and the book it self hath received since sundry changes from that first type . 12. in this posture queen elizabeth found the church , the protestant party abroad opposing the book of common prayer , few , varying in judgement , not at unity with themselves , nor well agreeing what they would submit unto : she hereupon caused it to be again revised by certain moderate and learned men , who took a great care for removing all things really lyable to exception ; and therefore where henry the 8. had caused to be inserted into the letany , to be delivered from the tyranny of the bishop of rome & all his detestable enormities , which remained all king edwards time , this , as what might give offence to that party , was thought fit to be strook out ; and where in the delivery of the eucharist the first book of ed. the 6. had onely this clause , u the body of our lord jesus christ which was given for thee preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life , and at the giving of the cup no other then the bloud of our lord iesus christ which was shed for thee preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life , and the second book which was in force at his death had removed those two clauses , and instead of them inserted take and eat this in remembrance that christ dyed for thee , and feed on him in thy heart by faith with thanksgiving , and accordingly at the delivery of the cup , from whence some might , and perhaps did infer the faithfull receiver not to have a real communication of christs body , in taking the sacrament , but onely a remembrance of his sufferings ; it was now thought fit both expressions should be retained , that no man might have any just cause of scandall : for be christs presence never so reall , even by transubstantiation , in the holy sacrament , we may upon o saint pauls warrant do it in remembrance of him . thus at the first of her reign matters in religion past with so great moderation , as it is not to be denyed very few , or none , of the romish inclination ( if they did at any time go to mass , ) refused to be present in our churches during the time of divine service . but of another thing that likewise past at the same time , it will be necessary to make some more particular mention . chap. viii . how queen elizabeth settled in this kingdome the proceeding against hereticks . 1 another particular , no small argument of the queens disposition , fell into consideration this parliament . her a sister had revived all the laws of former princes against hereticks , even that b of hen. the 4. which her father had on weighty considerations repealed , and all proceedings against them , till they came to their very execution , pertaining to the ecclesiastick : how to find a means to preserve her subjects , and yet not leave a license to every old heresy , new invention , fanatick spirit , to ruffle the church and trouble the world , was a matter of no small difficulty . but for the better understanding of what then past , it will be requisite to consider , how the condemning of heresy and proceeding against hereticks hath been , both here and elsewhere , how her maty found it abroad in the christian world , and at home , how thereupon she settled it . 2. the words heresy and heretick were in the primitive church not alwayes of so ill a sound as these later ages have made them . c st augustine doth name some opinions for hereticall have small affinity with divinity ; and who shall read d philastrius of heresies , must needs approve e cardinall bellarmin's censure of him , that he accounts amongst them many are not properly heresies , as the word is now taken . the first councell ⸫ of constantinople held 381. expresly affirms by the name of heretick to understand such as professing the same faith , yet did make a separation from those canonicall bishops were of their communion . but the construction what opinion was hereticall , did ever , so far as i have observed , belong to the spirituall magistrate , who , after the pattern held out in f holy writ , if any new erroneous opinion did peep , the neighbour bishops and clergy taking notice of it , did assemble , condemn it , and by their letters gave notice of what had past them to absent churches : if the case were difficult , the presence of any famous clerk was desired , who for settling peace ( as who would not ? ) was easily drawn out of his own home ; so was g origen sent for into arabia , and that this form continued in condemning heresy till constantine , seems to be very plain by the h proceedings against paulus samosatenus and divers others , remaining yet in history , and the writings of the fathers . but for the prosecution of an heretick farther then to avoid him , i know no example , till after god having given peace to his people under christian emperours , they i finding , if the church were in trouble , the state to be seldome otherwise , did provide as well for the calling of bishops to councells that might condemn heresies , as by lawes to punish hereticks . 3. the councell of nice therefore having in the year 325. censured the opinions of arius for hereticall , the emperour that had formerly granted priviledges to christians 326 , declared k haereticos atque schismaticos his privilegiis alienos &c. and that no man might be deceived by the ambiguity of the word heretick , l gratian and theodosius in the year 380. did declare who onely were to be so reputed , viz. all who secundum apostolicam disciplinam evangelic amque doctrinam patris & filii & spiritus sancti unam deitatem sub parili majestate & sub pia trinitate credamus , hane legem sequentes , christianorum catholicorum nomen jubemus amplecti , reliquos vero dementes vesanosque judicantes haeretici dogmatis infamiam sustinere : and the year following did not onely in ianuary m renew the said edict , but in iuly n commanded all churches to be delivered those bishops who held that profession , nihil dissonum profana divisione facientes , sed trinitatis ordinem , personarum adsertionem , divinitatis ordinem &c. and for the more assurance , as a mark of their being orthodox , ⸫ did hold communion with the catholick bishops of any one seat there remembred , as damasus of rome , nectarius of constantinople , pelagius of laodicea , diodorus of tarsus , optimus of antioch , &c. omnes autem qui abeorum quos commemoratio specialis expressit fide communionis dissentiunt , ut manifestos haereticos ab ecclesits expelli . which note o iustinian likewise in the year 541. having prescribed , goes farther , that sacram communionem in catholica ecclesia non percipientes à deo amabilibus sacerdotibus , haereticos juste vocamus . 4. before these lawes , it is not to be wondred if every one desired to be joyned in communion with some one of those seats , whose bishops were so recommended , for conserving the apostolick faith , for the sanctity of their manners , and for keeping schism out of the church ; which being usually joyned with sedition in the common wealth , p princes seem to have an especiall eye how it might be avoided , but after these edicts they certainly did it much more : and there being in the world no bishop more famous then the roman , nor any other named in these parts of europe then he , every one endeavoured to live united to that church , whose form the councell of nice 325. ( for before that , ⸫ ad romanam ecclesiam parvus habebatur respectus , as pius secundus writes ) approving in distribution of the ecelesiastick government , and emperours now in point of belief , the roman chair became so eminent , as , for to shew themselves orthodox , many , especially of the latins , did hold it enough to live in the communion of that see , and the fathers in that age to give high expressions of being in union with it . ⸬ s. ambrose shewing the devotion of his brother satyrus in a tempest , adds yet farther as a mark of it , advocavit ad se episcopum — percontatus . que ex eo est utrumnam cum episcopis catholicis , hoc est cum romana ecclesia , conveniret : and s. ',' hierom , a person very superlative in praising and reprehending , writing about the same time to damasus , ego nullum primum nisi christum sequens , beatitudini tuae , id est cathedrae petri communione consocior &c. and in the year 602. a certain bishop returning out of schism spontanea voluntate did swear , ⁙ he in unitate sanctae ecclesiae catholicae , & communione romani pontificis , per omnia permansurum &c. all which in time bred an opinion , that chair could not entertain an error , and the beginning of the mark absolutely inverted ; for those men who at first were , as others , sought unto q because they did conserve the religion s. peter had planted in rome , must in after-ages be onely held to maintain the same doctrine because they are in that see ; so that the doctrine did not commend the person , but the being in that seat , and recommended from thence , be it what it will , it ought to be received : insomuch as r cardinall bellarmine doubts not to write , si papa erraret praecipiendo vitia vel prohibendo virtutes , teneretur ecclesia credere vitia esse bona & virtutes malas , nisi vellet contra conscientiam peccare : for which he was s afterward forced to an apology ; yet is not in my opinion so absurd as the t rule left by certain religious persons 1606. to their confidents at padoua , containing ut ipsi ecclesiae catholicae ( understanding the pope ) omnino unanimes conformesque simus : si , quod oculis nostris apparet album , nigrum illa esse definierit , debemus itidem quod nigrum sit pronuntiare &c. 5. but to return whence i have a little digress't : it being plain by these lawes , the emperours restrained points of heresy to the catholick doctrine of the father , son and holy ghost , the ground of the four first generall councils ; and others not to be esteemed hereticks : in which sense i conceive sundry of the ancients take the word ; as u s. hierome , when he sayes all hereticks leave god ; and socrates , when he agrees such as x condemned origen , finding not to blame his opinion of the holy trinity , must confesse he held the right faith : and leo the first , when in an epistle about 449. he exhorts the emperour theodosius to consider the glory of s. peter , the crowns of the apostles , cunctorumque martyrum palmas , quibus alia non fuit causa patiendi , nisi confessio verae divinitatis , & verae humanitatis in christo , doth intimate the true faith to be contained in that profession . after these restrictions in the declaration of heresy , it is likely divers sects grew very audacious , either conceiving themselves without the compass of law , or trusting in their friends and numbers ; insomuch as arcadius , theodosius and valentinian , in the year 395. were forced to declare , y haereticorum nomine continentur , & latis adversus eos sanctionibus debent subcumbere , qui vellevi argumento judicio catholicae religionis & tramite detecti fuerint deviare : which z st. augustine explains , eos utique haereticos appellant , qui non sunt communionis eorum , as the councell of constantinople had before , taking the word in a larger sense then others had done . upon which the donatists , that were the most a furious , so as neither the persons nor goods of catholicks that dwelt amongst them were safe , are more b severely censured in them , then others , whose opinions were certainly more dangerous , yet whom emperours did think worthy of more favour . 6. but whilst princes did thus by their lawes onely correct hereticks , and the temporall magistrate execute their commands , they did rarely think fit to proceed * to bloud , unlesse perhaps c against some seditious preacher ; and the holy men of those times used earnest persuasions to deter any inclined to that severity , as not esteeming it to agree with the entire charity of a christian . s. augustine , whose labours no man equalled to preserve the church from that contagion , when donatus the proconsul of africa went farther then that holy man liked in that kind , d professeth he had rather be himself slain by them , then by detecting the donatists be any cause they should undergo the punishment of death . st. prosper e remembers four bishops to have been excommunicated 392. for being accusers of priscilian ( the first i have read of had his opinions confuted not by syllogisms but steel . ) from whence f baronius conceives it proceeds , that such as deliver an heretick to the secular for execution , to this day , effectually intercede he may not be punisht with death ; yet , as it were to mock god and delude the world , if the lay having him in his power , shall defer the doing it more then ordinary , g it is the constant tenet of the canonists , relying on a bull of alexander the 4. 1260. he is to be compell'd unto it by spirituall censures , yet may not take any congnizance of the cause at all . 7. it being then the course in the primitive times , that in the proceeding against hereticks , the ecclesiastick did conclude what * tenets were heresy , and the temporall whether the party accused were guilty of the imputation , and likewise of his punishment ( as is manifest by imperiall constitutions , the writings of the ancient doctours , the custome of the catholick church , that never prayed against hereticks , but heresy , ) did so remain at least 800. yeares after christ : but about that time the division of the empire falling out , and episcopall consistories establisht through europe , bishops did begin to claim as matters ecclesiasticall , and onely proper for their courts , the acting in those causes ; which in some sort might be , so far as the determination what is heresy did extend . and about the year 1000 , the christian world ( as branches not bearing fruit in christ , and therefore to be cast into the fire , iohn xv. 6. ) began to take that way of punishing miscreants ; so in h italy i and france , jussu regis & universae plebis consensu , some were thus destroyed : and in imitation of emperors , who had by their edicts prohibited all complyance with heresy k so far , as to punish any lending for that end places to resort unto , l alexander the 3. 1163. in a councill held at tours , & in another at rome 1179. making very strict canons against hereticks , declared , eos & defensores eorū & receptores anathemati decernimus subjacere , & sub anathemate prohibemus ne quis ipsos in domo vel in terra sua tenere velfovere , vel negotiationem cum eis exercere praesumat . of which the later being m registred in the canon law , is the first ecclesiastick constitution in it i have observed to condemn rather hereticks then heresy . soon after which ⸬ publicani comburebantur in pluribus locis per regnum franciae , quod rex angliae nullo modo permisit in terra sua , licet ibi essent perplurimi . 8. yet the pious men of those times seem not to approve of this rigour . st. bernard , one of the most devout persons of that age ( vir plane apostolicus sayes n bellarmine ) following the doctrine of one much more apostolick , o explaining cantic . ii . 15. take us the little foxes that spoyl the vines , writes , si juxta allegoriam ecclesias vineas , vulpes haereses , vel potius haereticos ipsos intelligamus , simplex est sensus , ut haeretici capiantur potius quam effugentur ; capientur dico , non armis , sed argumentis , quibus refellantur errores eorum , ipsi vero si fieri potest reconcilientur catholicae , revocentur ad veram fidem — hoc denique velle se per hibet , qui non simpliciter capite vulpes , sed capite nobis , inquit , vulpes parvulas ; sibi ergo & sponsae suae , id est catholicae , jubet acquiri has vulpes , cum ait capite eas nobis . and a little after , quod si haereticus reverti noluerit , nec convictus post primam jam & secundam admonitionem — erit devitandus . thus the holy men of the age in which they stopt first mens mouths not with arguments but armes , did judge of it : and indeed we have not many examples of any suffered meerly for conscience till after 1216. 9. in which year , as some write , innocentius 3 us . p on the ignorance or remissness of bishops in prosecution of hereticks , did give beginning to the q erection of a new court , called since the inquisition : of whose institution and use , because it hath highly served to the raising the papacy , it will be necessary to say something . he therefore at that time appointing dominicus a spaniard , founder of the dominican order , by a commission delegated from him , his inquisitor against the albigenses in france , ( without abrogating the power of episcopacy in that kind ) gave to him , onely a private friar , such a power , as caused divers of them to be destroyed by that auctority in another princes dominions . though such as r i have seen do conclude the auctority he exercised to have been from innocentius 3 us . yet of the time when it was granted they do somewhat disagree . franciscus pegna , a spanish doctor , who publisht his annotations on the directorium inquisitorum at rome 1585. yet it seems s could not secure himself from them , t holds it to have been first committed unto him about 1200. on the otherside paramo of the same nation , that was himself an inquisitor in sicily , and expresly writes of that subject , is u clearly of an opinion it could not be before the conclusion of the councell of lateran ; and for proof gives in my judgement a very probable reason , viz. that no papall decretall , or history preceding , did ever name any such inquisitor , that very x councell when it treats of heresy speaks of no other judge then the bishop : now it ending about easter 1216. ( y as i shall shew hereafter ) if granted by innocentius , it must be at some time between march and the 16. iuly 1216. when that z pope dyed . yet i cannot omit that a camillus campegius , in his additions to zanchinus , speaks as if after that councell friar dominick had not his auctority from the papacy immediately , but from one bertram or bertrand a cardinall priest : but who that bertram was , i confess i have not been able to satisfie my self . b ciaconius remembers one of the name employed against the albigenses , promoted to that honour by innocentius 3 us . 1212. but he styles him onely a cardinall deacon ; as he hath another so called that was a priest , but he was no cardinall , till honorius 3 us in december 1216 preferr'd him to the honour , so was not capable of serving pope innocent in that degree . 10. but whosoever first began it , frederick the 2d . certainly much augmented their power , c publishing the 22. of february 1224. three lawes at padua , by which he did constitute the dominicans inquisitors through the empire , yet taking all others under his protection ; and appointing such as should be convict of heresy , ut vivi in conspectu hominum combur antur , flammarum commissi judicio , &c. that these edicts were publisht at the onely instance of honorius 3 us . is very probable , in that they are not any way d recorded but in papall bulls quoad verba , ( ⸫ as i shall shew hereafter . ) after which , severall persons in divers parts proceeded against them by commission from rome : so as the bishop , who was the ordinary detector of heresy , had little to do , and became daily to have lesse and lesse ; that although his power be not in those cases absolutely taken off , yet it is so impaired , as it gives place to the inquisitor ; insomuch as if one suspected of heresy be cited by him and the bishop e at the same time , his appearance must first be in the inquisition : and the reason given is , because they have a power by a delegated commission from the pope , f whereas to the other jure divino haec cura incumbit in haereticos inquirere ; and g simanca yet more plain , cum episcopi non habeant secretum car●erem , nec ministros idoneos ad procedendum adversus haereticos , non possunt servare ordinem illum qui praefinitus est inquisitoribus : quam ob remusque eo tantum procedere debent , ut in haereticos vel suspectos inquirant , & summariam probationem inquisitoribus secreto mittere debent . so that what power the bishop hath in this kind from christ , he is now become little other then agent or substitute to the inquisitor in point of heresy . 11. but these commissioners exercising their auctority with fire , tortures , and the like , in short time found themselves infinitely mistaken , in expecting by such violence to render that peace in the church , and obedience in the world , the primitive fathers by the truth of their dictats , evidence of reason , and piety of their lives , drew men unto : for in some places they were h expell'd by the peoples fury , hardly any where continued but by strong hand ; their carriage being so full of scandall , as clement the 5. in the councell of vienna could not but acknowledge they had so exceeded the power committed to them by the apostolick see , i ut quod in augmentum fidei per circumspectam ejusdem sedis vigilantiam salubriter est provisum , ( dum sub pietatis specie gravantur innoxii ) cedat in fidelium detrimentum . for these men took upon them under the pope , not onely to construe what was heresy , or complying with it , but on those imputations to imprison , fine , confiscate mens goods , to the destruction of honest people , and families ; which forced some states k to limit their proceedings , barre them of prisons proper to themselves , and the wise venetian appoint three senators to supervise their actions : insomuch as this delegated power did so decline , as notwithstanding the many constitutions of innocentius 4 tus alexander , the fourth , and severall other popes yet extant for regulating of it , out of italy it was little taken notice of ; l in spain it remained obscurum debilitatumque , till ferdinand and isabella 1479. by agreement with xistus 4. or , as m others , 1484. with innocentius 8 , did so renew it , as n simanca doubts not to write , they did introduce it into that kingdome : which i conceive to be in respect of the alterations in the proceedings now used to those were formerly ; for that tribunall , in preceding times committed from the papacy to friars regulars ( who most depended on rome , ) and therefore said to be the popes court , is since by this concord become in effect no other then the kings , being recommended to the care of clerks secular and lawyers , the dominicans who formerly governed it altogether excluded , unlesse where the inquisitors require their counsell . 12. the style or manner there used being , that his maty o names an inquisitor generall , whom the pope approves , and after is not at all admitted to interpose ; for that inquisitor nominates a councell , of which himself is president , for number and persons as the king likes ( as sometimes five to which philip the 2. added two more , ) and these be of the gravest divines of spain , ever residing at or near the court , who compose all differences arising in particular courts , receive all appeals , punish the defect of agents , and relates to none but the king. of this councell , as i said , the inquisitor generall is president , whose auctority is very ample ; for he nominates all provinciall inquisitors and their officers , ( who yet enter not on their charges but by the kings allowance ) whom on occasion he removes and punishes , releases all penances , appoints visitors over particular courts , and though he be directed by the rule of the canon law and papall bulls , yet on occasion varies from them , as is manifest by p these instructions , relinquendum est arbitrio & prudentiae inquisitorum , ut procedant juxta juris dispositionem in his quae hic non expresse d●clarantur , is answerable to none but the king , admitting the pope either very little or not at all : insomuch as q pius 4 tus . 1565. sending the cardinall buon compagno into spain , upon the cause of the archbishop of toledo , committed by the inquisition there six yeares before on an imputation of heresy , the kings counsell liked not he should alone examine that prelate , without joyning two spaniards both in the processe and sentence . neither did that state receive the councell of trent 1564. by other auctority then the kings onely , who by his edict of the 12. of iuly commanded the cardinalls and others of his clergy to observe it , without making any mention of the pope . so that in that kingdome this catholick prince doth not take on him much less over ecclesiastick courts and causes then the king of england , however he do not style himself head of the church . and therefore r simanca speaking of this inquisition , plainly sayes , ferdinand and isabella judicii ordinem quo etiam hodie utimur magna ex parte instituerunt . insomuch as if we meet it at any time termed the popes court there , it is , no question , but a nominall appellation , of that is neither subject to his rules , nor to follow his commands , but as another will. 13. but this court in spain , and other places conforming themselves much to the papall interest , is become very infamous , things being carried in it , as we read in s monst de thous excellent history , praepostera judictorum forma , contra naturalem aequitatem , & omnem legitimum ordinem , — tum etiam immanitas tormentorum , quibus plerumque contra veritatem , quicquid delegatis judicibus libebat , à miseris & innocentibus reis , ut se cruciatibus eximerent , torquebatur . and indeed the directions popes have set them , do not agree i think with the practise of any standing court of justice the world ever saw : as that of t innocentius 4 us and u pius 4 us , that no man shall know the names either of his accuser or that testifies against him , which x camillus campegius will not have communicated to those learned men th' inquisitors shall call to their assistance in judgement . another y of pius 5 tus , that no declaratory or definitive sentence in favour of the accused , though after a canonicall purgation , posse facere transitum in rem judicatam , but that they may again proceed tam de antiquis quam noviter super eisdem articulis : which in effect is no other , but that a man once accused before them can never be freed . of a third of the z same pope , that whosoever should strike or terrify any belonging to the said office , ( even a notary or servant ) should assi●t any to escape , imbezzle any writings of that court , besides the being by that bull declared anathema , should be guilty of treason , and suffer according as men found culpable in primo capite dictaelegis , their children subject to the paternall infamy , to be not onely incapable of succeeding in the fathers inheritance , but of receiving any legacy from friend or stranger , or attaining any place of dignity whatsoever ; and others of the like nature , too long to be insisted on . 14. certain it will not be easy ( at least to my understanding ) to prove these proceedings of a court christian to agree with those rules and examples christ himself hath left us in holy scripture : but the pursuing these maximes , and the like , hath brought a great obloquy upon this court , so as it is held an undoubted truth , the inquisition under the spaniard hath an eye rather to a empty the purse , and is upholden more for temporall ends , then to cure the conscience . and to this purpose it may not be here unfitly remembred , that a spanish inquisitor , employed by philip the 2. into sicily , writes , it is found amongst the records of that kingdome , ⸬ quod quando in anno 1535. fuit limitata seu suspensa jurisdictio temporalis hujus sancti officii in aliquibus casibus per invictissimum carolum 5 tum faelicis memoriae , jurisdictio spiritualis causarum fidei fuit in suspenso , & quasi mortua : which i take no other then a confession , the church , which it maintains , without the temporall power would fail and come to nought ; as indeed b cardinall bellarmine somewhere in effect confesseth , that to restrain ecclesiastick jurisdiction to spiritualls , that pertain to the soul , is to reduce it to nothing . 15. but because i am here entred upon this fining or confiscation of the goods of a lay person by a spirituall judge , on the conviction ( or rather imputation ) of heresy , it will not be amiss to see how the ecclesiasticks have gained that addition to the power left them by christ ; which is so necessary , as without it , that onely was committed to them from him , which the ancient fathers practis't , would be as it were dead . it cannot be denyed , princes did in former times by their edicts impose pecuniary penalties on some actions concerned religion ; so did c theodosius 392. on such as did ordain or were ordained in haereticis erroribus ; which law a d councell held in africk about 404. ( provoked by the inhumanity of the donatists ) did petition th' emperour honorius might be of force against them : but never any holy bishop of those times took upon him to confiscate any mans estate for his opinions , much lesse to damnify the son for the fathers tenets ; and the lawyers do expresly resolve , e si poena alicui trrogatur — ne ad haeredes transeat , and give this reason , f poena constituitur in emendationem hominum , quae , mortuo eo in quem constitui videtur , desinit ; again , no man is alieni criminis successor : and accordingly , many g imperiall constitutions do expresly provide , the catholick children of hereticall parents ( though the father were deprived of them ) should succeed in their paternall goods ; and thus it stood for ought i know for above a 1000 yeares , the christian world thinking it hard the son should suffer for an erroneous perswasion of the father , neither did ever any holy bishop for that space ( unlesse as deputy to some prince ) take upon him that way of punishing , and if any did , it was not approved in him . 16. in the year 1148. h th' archbishop of canterbury called by eugenius 3 us to a councell at reims , the king denied him passage ; yet he stole thither ; for which on his return he was expell'd england : into which notwithstanding he got , shrouding himself , as it seems , in those tempestuous times , and to make himself the more formidable , interdicted divine service through the kingdome ( which is the first experience the nation ever had of that censure . ) to this the prior of s. augustines refused to yield obedience : and th' archbishop having now made his peace with stephen , got the sentence confirmed from rome ; upon which i omnes seculares in hoc monasterio servientes , praeter censuram ecclesiasticam , ad gravem pecuniae redemptionem , contra juris aequitatem & sanctorum patrum decreta , cocgit . on this complaint being made to the pope , he writ unto him , k sicut nobis significatum est , homines ejusdem monaster●i , pro participatione excommunicatorum , praeter ecclesiasticam poenam fuerunt ad redemptionem coacti ; and thereupon commands him , quatenus omnia quae hac occasione sunt eis ablata sine vexatione restitui facias , nolumus enim ut nova in vestra ecclesia inducantur &c. so that certainly it did but then begin to bud : & after 1160 , alexander the 3. l condemns the use of the archdeacons of coventry , who pro corrigendis excess●bus & criminibus puniendis , à clericis & laicis poenam pecuniariam exigunt , affirming it seemed to proceed de radice cupiditatis & avaritiae : yet the same pope in a m councell at rome 1179. appoints the goods of hereticks to be confiscated , but gives not at all any auctority to the spirituall judge in the execution of it ; and at the compiling of the decretalls by gregory the 9. n that particular is omitted . 17. but not long after innocentius 3 , that vere stupor mundi and immutator seculi , as o matthew paris styles him , about the year 1200 p appointed the goods of hereticks under his jurisdiction should be confiscated , and out of it the like to be done by the secular magistrate , upon pain of ecclesiastick censures ; adding from certain q imperiall constitutions , that it being onely an act of mercy , that the children of such as commit treason have their lives spared , when they loose their goods , and the crime far greater to offend god then man , that the severity should not give scandall to the faithfull , in seeing children exposed to misery for the parents offence , there being many cases wherein according to the divine justice sons may be punisht for the fathers fault , which he leaves the canonists to justify by th' examples of chanaan , the children in sodom , of achan &c. as i do the reader to r seek in them . but it seems to mean hard gloss , from prophetick speeches of the primitive times , or extraordinary examples , when god himself directed what he would have done , for us now to conclude a practise lawfull contrary to expresse precept , deut. xxiv , 20. ler. xxxi , 30. ezech. xviii , 20. made good likewise by the ordinary s use of those times . besides , i am not satisfied with the reason , that temporall lords punishing treason with the heirs losse of estate , heresy being an offence of the same or a worse nature against the divine majesty , children ought so to suffer : for doubtlesse all treason against a prince presupposeth malice to his person or government , ( and therefore we do not read that for meerly casuall misfortunes , such as tirrells in england , or mongomeries in france , men have been so punisht ) and for that they take away the offenders life upon the first fact , which th' ecclesiastick t pardons : now questionlesse heresy is out of an erroneous opinion the holder hath of pleasing god. 18. this of innocentius 3 us i take to be the first papall constitution in the kind ; yet some 16. yeares before it , divers of severall qualities being discovered in that part of the netherlands was then within the province of reims , the archbishop and earl of flanders joyned in an edict , u ut deprehensi incendio trader entur , substantiae vero eorum sacerdoti & principi resignarentur . after this in x the councell of lateran 1215. under the same pope it was again establisht , bon a damnatorum [ de haeresi ] si laici fuerint , confiscentur ; si vero clerici , applicentur eccles●is à quibus stipendia perceperunt &c. nine yeares after which fredericus 2 dus publisht those lawes at padoua , of which before , in which he did especially establish the confiscation of their goods , and is the first imperiall constitution of that kind ; which remain no where now entire save in some y papall bulls , as of innocentius 4. alexander the 4. and clement the 4. as is noted in gloss. de haeret. cap. 18. in sexto ad verb. leges quasdam : yet some part of them are now inserted into z the codex of iustinian , under the titles of authenticae or nova constitutio frederici 2. de statu & consuetud . &c. as i have touched before . 19. but these lawes , though they confiscated the goods of hereticks , did not appoint how they should be employed ; insomuch as the same emperour , being that very year 1224. at palermo in sicily , a expressed his intent to all his officers through the empire , but more especially in that kingdome , that whereas formerly his exchequer did receive the benefit of those confiscations , they should be divided into three parts , viz. one third fisco , another apostolicae sedi , & the other third eisdem inquisitoribus . after which b innocentius 4 us 1252. did appoint a distribution in some sort imitating him , as did likewise c alexander the 4th , including as liable to the same punishment such as were receivers of hereticks : to d which clement the 4. 1265. added , that the houses in which hereticks were found , to be destroyed without hope of reedifying , the materialls sold , and a threefold division made , &c. these deprivations confined hitherto to italy onely , boniface the 8. 1295 , or rather e 1297 , publishing the sixth book of the decretalls , made generall , decreeing , f bona haereticorum ipso jure decernimus confiscata : whereupon , and some other by him then inserted into the canon law , bishops laboured to draw from th' lnquisitors part of the profits thus distributed ; but g benedict the 11. 1303. did absolutely prohibit that , tanquam juri absonum . after which , because ( as it seems ) the clergy were not free from prosecuting men onely for their estates , clement the 5th in the councell of vienna 1311. strictly h injoyned , ne praetextu officii inquisitionis , quibusvis modis illicitis ab aliquibus pecuniam extorqueant ; and likewise , ne scienter attentent ecclesiarum bona , ob clericorum delictum , praedicti occasione officii fisco etiam ecclesiae applicare ; changing what the councell of lateran had before establisht . 20. yet notwithstanding this grave admonition of the pope , their agents did not carry themselves without scandall in this kind , by reason of an i outrage arising from a franciscan inquisitor 1346. in florence ; a scrutiny was had of his actions , and found he had raised from the citizens 7000 florens of gold in two yeares , as compositions , or fines , upon the imputation of heresy , yet never lesse in the town ; but any erroneous or lesse cautelous word was censured as criminall . this drew the florentine to conform themselves to the usages of perugia , spain , and other parts , in making a law , no inquisitor should condemn any citizen or borderer pecuniarily , but if an heretick , send him to the fire . by which we may gather , these bulls were not generally received in the world ; for then in spain th' ecclesiastick did not fine men , and now the king there hath the benefit of those confiscations . in k france they do not to this day impose on the laicks amendes pecuniares , but onely on the clergy , which must be expended en aumosnes and ouvres pitoiables , not to the enriching themselves , &c. neither doth the wise venetian permit confiscating of estates to arise from any sentence of theirs , but that is to devolve to the next heir . i do not here mention the constitutions of boniface archbish. of cant. 1260. nor of stratford 1343. in this kind ; because of the first little reckoning was made , and the second did onely refer to commutation of penance , which the law allowes : he that would may find them in lyndwood lib. 3. de immunitate ecclesiae cap. accidit , and lib. 5. de poenis cap. evenit . 21. if any ask a cause , why the ancient fathers did proceed with so great lenity against blasphemous hereticks , as the arrians , nestorians , &c. why , when the l emperour would have punisht the furious donatists with a pecuniary mulct , the holy men of those times so earnestly interceded as to procure the remission , and did requite their fury with such love & meeknesse , m as to be able to say , no one of them had payed what th' imperiall edicts might challenge ▪ when of late yeares men have been brought to the fire , children exposed to misery by the loss of their parents estates , even by bishops and other of the clergy , whose opinions were neither so blasphemous as the arrians , nor their comportments so inhumane as the donatists : why they preached , men n relapsed , even to a thousand times , might yet live reconciled to the church ; when as now such as have renounced an opinion rome calls heresy , being after found to hold it , is o seculari judicio sine ulla penitus audientia relinquendus ; which yet is not observed if he be a prince , as was henry the 4. or perhaps a private man out of their power : 22. to these demands i can give no other answer , but , that their offences being against the holy trinity , the pious bishops of those times , as men who watched for soules , did content themselves to denounce what was heresy , but having done that , finding it not received , to leave the punishment to him who assures it shall go worse with sodom and gomorrah then those refused their instructions , and under him to the secular magistrate ; did likewise follow his precept , in forgiving even to p seventy times seven times : when on the other side , the opinions of these later hereticks ( as they call them ) be rather against men and their institutes , then god , as that q romanum praesulem reliquis episcopis paremesse , purgatorium ignem non inventri , celebritates sanctorum rejiciendas , iejuntis ab ecclesia institutis mhil inesse meriti &c. and a perswasion gained , none but the ecclesiastick can r punish heresy , who judge the opposer by the law of man , howbeit they style it christian , yet how it agrees with divinity iremit to the canonists decision . in the mean time i cannot but observe , s simanca finds nothing out of holy writ , but onely in divine plato lib. 10. de legibus , to maintain the position that semel tantum haereticis poenitentibus parcitur &c. 23. this being then the proceeding against hereticks in generall , it will be necessary to see how it was formerly in england , and how the queen found it . first , it will not be unfit to premise , t that from the conversion of the saxons to the year 1166. no heresy was ever known to have been in england ; insomuch as we may safely conclude , whatever doctrine we meet with in the publick homilies of the church , or other writers of elder times , must be esteemed catholick , however it now stand censured : but in that year about xxx dutch came hither , that detested baptisme , the eucharist &c. who being convict by scripture in an episcopall councell called by the king at oxford , were remitted to his disposition , that caused them to be whipt , and burnt in the face , and a command given none should either receive or relieve them , so that they miserably perisht : which severity his maty did not think fit afterward to extend to those were then called publicani , as i have before u shew'd , though there were many in his dominions . 24. for the punishment of hereticks , it cannot be doubted by the common law ( that is the custome of the realm ) of england to have been here , as in other parts of the world , by consuming them by fire . x balaeus , from the testimony of a chronicle of london , reports one of the albigenses to have been so made away there 1210. to which the ⸬ learned camden seems to allude , when he sayes more dyed in queen maries time , then this nation had seen ex quo regnante iohanne christiani in christianos apud nos flammis saevire coeperunt . the same paramo saith is made good by an epistle of tho. waldensis to martin the 5. but i have not seen it ; i am sure in that vvaldensis i use it is not found . but of the truth of the thing there is no question ; for y bracton writes of an apostate deacon , that in a councell held at oxford 1222. by stephen langton was first degraded , and then by the lay committed to the fire : with whom for the thing agrees z fleta ; yet , by the way , where you read in him per manum comburentur clericalem , it is to be laicalem , for so is bracton , out of whom he transcribed it , agreeing with the continuall practise both of this and other nations ; for the clergy meddles not with execution . 25. in edward the 3 ds dayes , about the year 1347. a polydore virgil testifyes two franciscans to have been burnt , quod de religione male sentirent . neither did vvilliam sautry , a relapsed priest , dye by any statute-law 2. h. 4. but convicted in a provinciall councell of th' archbishop of cant. the writ de haeretico comburendo , bearing date the 26. february was by th' advice of the lords temporall sent to the major of london to cause him be executed , b attendentes , sayes it , hujusmodi haereticos , sic convictos & damnatos , juxta legem divinam , humanam , canonica instituta , & in hac parte consuetudinaria , ignis incendio comburi debere &c. but where c vvalsingham speaks as if he dyed during the sitting of the parliament , by vertue of d the law then made against hereticks , the historian is without peradventure mistaken ; for that parliament , begun about the 20. ianuary , ended the 10. march following , did expresly provide , on the petition of the commons , e qe touz les estatutz & ordenances faitz ou affaire en cest parliament qe sont penalz , ne tiegnent lieu ne force devant le feste de peatecoste prochin venant , les queles en le mesme temps puissent estre proclamez : to which the answer is , le royle voet . so that certainly he could not dye by that law , which was not to take effect till so long after . 26. but i confesse i did a little doubt of two particulars : the one , whether by the common law a lay man could be sent to the fire for any conviction by the ecclesiastick ; for all the undoubted precedents i have met with ( unlesse that of the albigenses were otherwise ) were of some clearks , within the pale of the church , that were so punisht ; and bracton and fleta both agree , clerici apostatae comburantur ; whose words being penall , i conceived stricti juris not to be construed by equity . but indeed fleta elsewhere speaks more generally , christiani apostatae * detrectari debent & comburi ; and f britton of miscreants so to be served , without distinction of the quality ; with whom sr. edward cook concurs . another thing i questioned , whether any bishop within his diocese alone could convict one of heresy before 2. hen. 4. cap. 15. ( of which hereafter : ) for whatever the power of the ordinary was , there is very little example of his putting it in exercise before the times of vvickliff . 27. who began to be taken notice of about the end of edward the 3. or rather the beginning of rich. the 2. in whose doctrine , at least that they fathered on him , though there were good corn , yet was it not without tares . but when it grew common , and to be hearkned unto , the prelats laboured to procure g a law , his maties commissions should be directed to the sheriffs and other his ministers , to arrest all preachers , their fautors &c. to hold them in prison , till they will justifi themselves according to reason , and the lawes of the holy church . how this past i should be glad to learn ; for not onely h the printed statutes , but i the roll of parl nt expresly mentions the commons agreeing to those acts , yet the ⸫ next meeting they do disclaim to have given any assent unto it , quiel ne fust unques assentu ne grante parles coēs , mes ce qe fust parle de ce fust sanz assent , de lour qe celuy estatut soit anntenti : to which the kings answer is , y plest au roy. how it fell out this latter was not counted an act , k sr. edward cook hath shew'd , which tells us why it past again without opposition in l queen maries dayes . i wish that learned gentleman had given his opinion how the record came to be so faulty , as to affirme a concurrence of the lower house to that they never assented . 28. in king hen. the 4 ths time his successour , that m law past , which greatly increased the power of the ordinary , allowing him to imprison , fine , determine all causes of heresy , according to the canonicall decrees , within three moneths : on which words canonicall sanctions the bishops so behaved themselves , n that the most learned man of the realm , diligently lying in wait upon himself , could not eschue and avoid the same act and canonicall sanctions , if he should be examined upon such captious interrogatories as is and hath been accustomed to be ministred by the ordinaries of this realm , in cases where they will suspect of heresy &c. upon which , if any did refuse obedience to his diocesan in ought , o as paying a legacy &c. there would be means found to bring him within the suspicion of heresy . and certainly the proceeding of some diocesans upon this statute gave quickly scandall : for onely nine yeares after , we find the commons petition , ⸪ qe please a nre soveraigne seig r le roy grantier , qe si ascun soit ou serra arreste par force de l' estatute fait l' an de vostre regne seconde , al requeste des prelats & clergie de vostre royalme d' engleterre , q' il purra estre lesse a mainprise , & faire sa purgation franchement sanz destourbance d' ascun en mesme le conteou il est arrestu , & qe tieles arrestes soient desore en avant faitz en due forme de ley , par les viscount , mairs , baillifs ou conestables nostre seign r le roy , sanz violent affray , our force & armes , en depredation de leur biens , ou autre extortion ou injurye queconcque en celle affaire . but to this , le roy se voet ent aviser is all the answer given . but whereas ⸫ vvalsingham speaks of this parl nt . as insected with lollardy , certainly to me there is no such thing appeares in the roll , but rather the contrary . but i confesse i did think before that law of h. 4. no bishop in his diocese , without a provinciall councell , could have convicted any man of heresy , so as to have caused him been burnt ; for mans life being a point of so high concernment in the law , and heresy laying so great an imputation on the party , it seemed not to me probable , every angry bishop in his court should alone have power of determining what was by the canonicall sanctions so esteemed , and whose words or writings could admit no other sense then hereticall : and with this it seemed to me the practice did concur , for the deacon burnt at oxford suffered after conviction in a provinciall synod ; and the conviction of vvilliam sautry shewes plainly to have been after the same manner , p the writ running , cum vener abilis pater thomas &c. de consensu & assensu , ac consilio coepiscoporum , ac confratrum suffragancorum suorum , nec non totius cler● provinciae suae , in concilio suo provinci ili congregato , juris ordine in hac parte requisito in omnthus observato &c. intimating ( as it seemed to me ) if otherwise , the order of law had not been observed . and i did ever conceive this law had increased the power of the ordinary , as well in permitting him singly to pursue the canonicall sanctions in convicting an heretick , as in sining and imprisoning of him ; especially the statute q of q. mary , that gave it life after the repeal of hen. the 8 , affirming , before such revivall the ordinary did want auctority to proceed against those that were infected with heresy . but i have since found , r better opinion it was otherwise . 29. after this 2. hen. 5. s a parliament at leicester enacted , the chancellour , treasurer , justices of the peace , sheriffs , &c. should take an oath for destroying all manner of heresies , commonly called lollardries , to be assistant to the ordinary therein ; persons convict of heresy to loose their fee-simple land ; iustices of the kings bench , of the peace and of assize , to enquire of all holding any errours or heresies as lollards , their maintainers , receivers , fautors , &c. and for that end a clause to be put into the commissions of iustice of the peace : yet forasmuch as the cognizance of heresie , errours , and lollardries belonged to iudges of holy church , and not to the secular , the inditement taken by them not to be evidence , but for information before the spirituall iudge , into whose hands the person suspected to be delivered within ten dayes after his enditement ; every man empanell'd in the enquest for the tryall of them to have in england 5 pounds , in wales forty shillings in land by the year &c. which three lawes were each repealed by hen. the 8th or ed. the 6. and again restored by q. mary , under whom , by vertue of them , had in lesse then three yeares been spoyled for religion more christian bloud of her subjects , then in any princes reign since lucius . 30. things standing thus when queen elizabeth came to the crown , the ecclesiastick auctority exercised at home and abroad with rigour and austerity , rather then christian mildnesse ; still to permit that , was the continuing a fire to consume her people , and yet for every one to think and do without controule what him list , was to let loose all reins of government , to leave open a door for sedition to disquiet her kingdome , and the commonwealth perhaps not to be ever in peace : her maty therefore took a middle way to agree with the primitive times , and yet not let every profane humor disturb the church , by t erecting a court with power to visit , reform , redresse order , correct and amend all such errours , heresies , schismes &c. which by any spirituall or ecclesiasticall power , authority , or jurisdiction can or may lawfully be reformed , ordered , redressed , corrected , restrained or amended ; yet restraining them from adjudging any thing to be heresy , that had not been heretofore adjudged such by the plain words of the canonicall scriptures , or by any one of the first four generall councells , or by any other generall councell , wherein the same was declared heresy by the expresse and plain words of the canonicall scripture , or that should hereafter by the parliament with the assent of the convocation &c. from whence ariseth a question of some intricacie , how it came to passe those times spake with so great submission to the four first generall councells , and yet so restrained the other , without expressing which they were , nor any other particular concerning them . for the solution of which , we are to know , those have been ever looked on by the catholick church with more reverence then any other that ever yet were held . the u emperour iustinian 541. declared which they were , and that he did receive earum dogmata sicut sanctas scripturas , & regulas sicut leges observamus ; who made not the like mention of the fifth , though x called by him , and held in his time . neither did gregory the great , who did reverence them , y sicut sancti evangelii quatuor libros , make the same esteem of the fifth ; for having made honourable mention of it in a letter to a queen of lombardy , sent by a bishop of milan , the bishop gave it her not , on an opinion she might be scandalized at his naming of it : upon which z st. gregory sent him word he did well , and in that altered his epistle . and the year following , viz. 596 , ⸫ the people of ravenna opposing one maximianus in being their bishop , as not of sound belief , in that he did not carry so great veneration to the councell of chalcedon , hodoth assure them of the contrary , that he did receive those four councells , but makes no mention of the fifth . i do not deny but a the faith of the fifth and sixth were by this church approved , yet never any of them had that great reverence yielded their dictats the first four had , which are therefore said to have been b synodi firmissimae by elfrick , in his canons to vvulfin . 32. but these , however of this high esteem , yet had not the name of generall appropriated unto them till long after ; for certainly that distinction was not suddenly brought into the church , at least in that sense it is now taken , many synods by our writers being styled generall , to which yet th' obligation was never of that nature , as if they did not or could not erre . c eadmerus writes , anselm told vvilliam the 2 , generale concilium episcoporum ex quo rex factus fuisti non fuit in anglia celebratum : and the like phrase is used very frequently for english councells not onely in him , but in our other eldest and best historians , as d flor. vvigorniensis , e simeon dunelmensis , f huntington , g gervas . dorobernensis , h hoveden , &c. i mat. paris speaking of a councell held at vvestminster 1175. calls it concilium generale , which in k diceto is changed to concilium regionale , and in the margin added ( out of the mss. copy sometimes belonging to st. albans , and now at saint iames's , ( the best and fairest i ever saw ) and which i conceive mat. paris himself used ) solius papae est concilium generale , romanae ecclesiae & constantinopolitanae est concilium universale : which i know not how he will make good , having l the 3d and 4th councell of carthage , m and one held there 403. the councell n of matiscon and others to contest with , which being no other then particular , as we now esteem them , have in their acts the titles of being universall councells . so the 4th councell o of toledo is said to have been generall ; as by eymericus a p councell in tarragona . 33. now of such as have been so called , it is manifest the value set on them is altogether vanisht , and was so long since . q malmsbury records , the councells held by anselm were in his time become obsoleta , their credit lost : and so we may say of the rest , for r lyndwood is very clear no english councells oblige this church , before 1222. stephen langton held one at oxford . as for those which the popes called as patriarchs of the west , which diceto conceives were properly generall , the rite of former times was , never to send hence more then four bishops unto them ; which when it came in question 1179. s episcopi angliae constanter asseruerunt , quod ad generale concilium dom. papae quatuor episcopi de anglia tantum romam mittendi sunt : which is so full a testimony of his having no absolute power over our bishops , not so much as to cause them meet in councell , as there cannot well be a greater ; and therefore when he imposed the oath ( of t which before ) on them , one clause was , vocatus ad synodum veniam , nisi praepeditus fuero canonica praepeditione . yet in after ages the going thither did onely remain at the princes pleasure , u who gave them auctority consentiendi , & , si opus fuerit , dissentiendi his quae juxta deliberationem dicti concilii inibi statui & ordinari contigerit . all which i have spoke of generall councells , that the reader may know , when he meets that phrase in any author , he is not necessarily to conclude him to have conceived an obligation of following whatever they said , nor that he held it to have been void of errour ; for it is unquestionable , they and we give the name to such synods as were esteemed full of imperfections , far from that freedome ought to be in generall councells , to whose canons they did not hold themselves tyed . 34. but because in these cases examples of former times do more convince mens judgements , then present affirmations , to give some instances , not of other then of such as have been x lately printed , and with that title , at rome ; as the councell of vienna 1311. which by ⸫ gisburnensis , who lived about that time , is noted to have been nothing lesse then a free councell : the book is not printed , i will give you the whole therefore as i find it in him . dominus papa clemens tennit concilium suum viennae anno dom. mccexi . primo die mensis octobris : in quo quidem conciliotres fecit sessiones . i. in prima sessione , facto sermone , exposuit clero tres artioulos super quibus erat principaliter tractandum , & consulendum ; super negotio terrae sanctae , quomodo posset recuperari & tueri , & super ordine templariorum , qui pro nullo habebatur ; praecepitque omnibus praelatis , & singulis qui convenerant , quod super praemissis articulis usque ad secundam sessionem deliberarent . ii. in secunda sessione facta est long a disputatio de ordine templariorum , utrum stare posset , vel deleri de jure deberet . et erant pro ordine templariorum praelati quasi omnes , praeter praelatos franciae , qui propter timorem regis franciae ( per quem , ut dicebatur , totum illud scandalum fuerat ) aliud facere non audebant . erant in toto concilio ( quod concilium dici non merebatur , quia ex capite proprio omnia fecit dominus papa , non respondente neque consentiente sacro concilio ) baculi pastorales circa cxxx . iii. in tertia sessione dominus papa [ sedit ] pro tribunali , & ab uno latere rex franciae , ab altero rex naverniae filius ejus : surrexit que quidem clericus , & inhibuit sub poena excommunicationis majoris , ne aliquis loqueretur verbum in concilio , nisi licentiatus vel requisitus à papa . recitatoque processu templariorum , adjecit papa , quod licet ex processu praehabito ipsum ordinem de jure delere non posset , tamen ex plenitudine potestatis ordinem delevit , nomen & habitum , terras eorum & possessiones hospitalariis conferendo , aggregando , & uniendo . 35. the like may be said of the councel of lateran under innocentius 3. in which there was onely recitata ( as what the pope had before concluded on ) capitula y lx , quae aliis placabilia , aliis videbantur onerosa , &c. which with the great extortion then exercised on the prelats appeared in it , the little credit it gained in england , might justly cause z th' antiquitates britannicae ecclesiae write it to end in risum & scomma : which words are none of mat. paris , but of the auctors ; though the marginall note against them in a the edition of hanaw 1605. hath given an occasion of mistake , which should have been placed five lines lower , as it is in that * of london 1572. for that he there speaks of the prelats borrowing to satisfy the papall avarice , is as archbishop parker , or whosoever else composed those lives , thus delivered in b historia minori ; tunc autem temporis solutum est concilium generale : papa vero praelatis petentibus licentiam repatriandi minime concessit , immo à singulis auxilium in pecunia postulavit , quam recessurt cum viaticis cogebantur à mercatoribus curiae romanae duris conditionibus mutuare , & sic cum benedictione papali ad propria remearunt — per idem tempus instante festo paschali , &c. 36. this i have the rather transcribed , because some are of opinion that councell ended 1215 ; which certainly it did not till towards easter the year following ; and then too abruptly , the pope called away on a suddain for appeasing the wars growing in italy , the 16 iuly 1216. dyed : which makes it without either time when it began or ended , nothing being fully concluded but th' expedition against the sarazins , for the recovery of the holy land . of this i have made the more particular mention , for that having given advertisement of it to doctor wats ( who hath with great sincerity and judgment put out mat. paris , ) that he might clear the archbishop in his adversariis , i know not by what fate he applies his note to pag. 138 , 5. which referrs to the councell held there by alexander the 3. 1179. when it should have been to pag. 272. or pag. 274. 6. and thinks he called the lives of the abbots the historia minor ; who i am perswaded * never saw that book , but did write candidly what he found in historia minori . 37. but that this councell was never received generally here is manifest , in that divers canons in it were not of force in england , as the 3 , the 41 , the 46 , to which i may adde the very first ; for though c peckham 66 years after did make a constitution in that point ; yet he did , to my understanding , not speak of christs presence in the eucharist so grossely , nor determine it to be by transubstantiation , as the first chapter of the other doth : but of that hereafter . and whosoever shall persue d simon sudburies constitions 1378 touching confession , will find so much variation from the 21 chapter of that synod , as he cannot think he took that for a rule not to be varied from . to which i may adde , that e peckham provides the punishment of the negligent conserver of the holy sacrament to be secundum regulam concilii generalis , meaning the 20th chapter of this i speak of ; which had it been of force otherwise , he had no doubt commanded the due observance of it , not by his command added strength to the rule there given . it is true , stephen langton , to ingratiate himself with rome ( whom he had so much displeased , as f the pope intended to remove him from his archbishoprick on the kings desire , but stopt on the intercession of the court , and his being a cardinall ) did at the end of his synod at oxford 1222 enjoyn the councell ⸫ of lateran held under pope innocent , in the paying of tythes and other litigious * causes , to be observed , & in synodis episcopalibus constitutiones illius concilii , una cum istis , prout videbitur expedire , [ exponi volumus & recitari : ] which last words binius hath changed , i know not on what auctority , to volumus observari , when questionlesse th' english took them for advise , not a precept : and their little regard of them appears by the particulars mentioned . neither doth lyndwood make any mention of this part , though he have , i think , all the rest were agreed there : & is it self altogether omitted in some old copies of that councel i have seen ; one of which is joyned with the mss. annals of burton abby in sr thomas cottons library . but the acts of this councell being , with divers others , printed at the end of the constitutions of otho and othobon at paris 1504 , and since by binius transferred into his third tome the second part , this is alledged by some men , as if what past at lateran had been of undoubted validity with us ; when no question , what was done there hath never been taken here as the decrees of a generall councell , like that of nice or &c. but of innocentius 3 us , as they stand in the decretalls ( compiled by gregory the 9th his nephew ) with this title , innocentius 3. in concilio lateranensi , as those by him propounded , but not fully concluded in councell , according to plantina , and from which this church varied as occasion served . yet if any shall insist this conclusion of 1222. to have been of greater validity then i speak , i must adde , that if it really were made with such an intent by the ecclesiasticks , it cannot be thought to have obliged us more then that declaration of the bishops 1615 did the french ; who g having meurement delibere sur la publication du concile de trente , ont unaniment recognu & declarè , & recognoissent & declarent , estre obligez par leur devoir , & conscience , a recevoir , come de fait ils ont receu & recoivent , le dit concile , & promettent l'observer entant qu' ils peuvent par leurs fonctions , & auctorite spirituele , & pastorele , and caused the same to be printed . yet that of trent had never validity in france , nor the other in england , notwithstanding what thus past the clergy . 38. neither was that other councell of lateran under innocentius 2. ever received here : though the pope there h insignem sacrorum decretorum textum congessit , yet nimis abundans per universum orbem nequitia terrigenarum corda contra ecclesiastica scita obduravit : from whence it proceeded , that when they were divulged they did no good , quoniam à principibus & optimatibus regnorum , cum subjectis plebibus , parvi pensa sunt . now that it was never received here appears , ( besides this testimony ) in that the marriage of a professed nun was i adjudged valid , contrary to the 7. canon of it , and that too after it was registred in the k canon law : which shews , this church did neither admit the canons of forreign councells , nor the canon law it self to alter their ancient customes ; as is farther manifest by the statute of merton cap. 9. neither was the councell of sardis ever allowed in england , as is manifest by what before of appeals , which yet by the capitulars of l charls the great and ludovicus pius was even in that particular in france ; which made 2 st. bernard write of them , in multas posse eas devenire perniciem , si non summo [ moderamine actitentur : appellatur de toto mundo ad te ] id quidem &c. for so the place is to be read , as i have seen in two very good mss , and one late printed , not as in the former editions of him , as at paris 1586. by these precedents the reader may judge how necessary it was for the parliament to make a distinction of councells . now in these , with sundry of as doubtfull credit , being of late l printed at rome , as if they were of equall value with the first , i have thought fit to instance . and here having made mention of receiving councells , as if that added strength unto them , it will be necessary to say something of that too , for the fuller clearing of this church . 39. the apostles as they shewed a pattern for m holding councells to settle disputes amongst christians ; so paul and silas in their travells delivering the n decrees by them ordained to be kept by severall churches , shew'd it to be reasonable , such as were absent should receive what was done in any synod , before they were obliged by it ; and accordingly , in the primitive times , those were not present at the holding a synod , had the results sent or brought unto them after the conclusion taken , who did in their own churches subscribe ( finding them just and pious ) what the others had in councell agreed upon , and then reposed them amongst their records , called by st hierom o scrinia publica , ecclesiarum arcae &c. so p cecilian , being present at nice , brought to carthage the decrees there concluded , who submitted unto them ; and q s. athanasius of that councell sayes , huic concilio universus orbis assensum praebuit ; & quanquam multae habitae sunt synodi , hujus tamen omnes sunt memores , tumper dalmatiam , dardaniam , aliasque insulas , siciliam , &c. & plerique in arabia hanc agnoverunt , & subscriptione approbarunt , &c. and of the r councell at sardis it is recorded , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which i english thus ; osius the bishop subscribed , and so did th● rest . these things being copied out , the synod●n sardis sent to those could not be present , who were of the same mind w●th what had been determined of those subscrib●d in the synod ; and of the other bishops these are the names . 40. after which s athanasius ( from whom this epistle is taken ) adds , qui igitur decretis 〈…〉 sunt isti — in universum 344. hence it grew , that though some councells had but few at the holding of them , yet the subscriptions were numerous . t baronius observes the 5th councell of carthage to have been held by 22 onely , ( i conceive it should be 72. ) yet had 217. subscribers , which was after the ending of it , by bishops in their own churches , when they admitted of it . so the u synod of antioch about 341. sending their conclusions to absent churches , writ unto them , they did believe they would assent to what they had done , et ca quae visa sunt recta roborantes cum consensu sancti spiritus consignabitis . it is of no use to dispute here , whether this were an arrian or a catholick councell : be it either , it still denotes the manner then used ; as doth the x third councell of toledo held anno 589. which speaks thus , constitutiones sanctorum conciliorum , niceni , ephesini , constantinopolitani vel chalcedonensis , quas gratissima aure audivimus , & consensione nostra veras esse probavimus , de toto corde & de tota anima & de tota mento nostra subscripsimus : and another held there , having received with the letters of pope leo the 2. the sixth generall councell , invited all the prelats * of spain , ut praedicta synodalia instituta quae miserat , nostri etiam vigoris manerent auctoritate suffulta , omnibusque per nos sub regno hispaniae consistentibus patescerent divulganda . 41. by all this it is plain , the manner of former times was to disperse the decrees of councells to absent churches , who by subscriptions were said to have confirmed , and , so far as lay in them , by suffrage , to have given strength to that such meetings had agreed unto . and as popes did thus confirme what other bishops had concluded in their synods , so did they in like manner his . in the year 1095. vrban the 2. held a councell at clermont in auvergne , at which were present severall prelats of normandy , who at their return brought letters from the synod , upon which vvilliam archbishop of roan caused the norman bishops to meet there , y who capitula synodi quae apud clarum-montem facta est unanimiter contemplati sunt , scita quoque apostolica confirmaverunt . it is true , the pope being the patriarch of most note in the world , and of greatest dignity in the west , usually the acts of forraign councells were directed unto him , z which he dispersed through italy and other parts of europe ; but his approbation was not enough to oblige other churches , till what came from him was by themselves allowed : neither was this dispersing so appropriated to his papacy , as if there were never any other divulging of them ; the second councell of nice held 787 , or 788 as di●eto accounts , was sent from constantinople to charls the great , then onely rex francorum , and by him 792. hither , where it was rejected . 42. from hence it proceeded , that part of the acts of one councell did not bind some churches , which did others ; as some parts of the councell of chalcedon and ephesus seem not to have been received in rome in a s. gregories time , to which may be added some b canons of the 7th councell . but i believe it will be hardly shewed from the ancients , that any church , neither intervening in councell by proxy , nor that did after admit of it , were ever held concluded by any , though never so numerous . certainly none was ever held of greater esteem amongst catholicks then the councel of nice ; yet c s. augustine , in his dispute with an arrian , confesses neither the councell of nice ought to prejudice the arrian , not that held at ariminum him , sed utrisque communibus testibus , res cum re , causa cum causa , ratio cum ratione concertet . and c st. hilary , comparing two councells , one of 80. bishops which refused the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , with that of nice which received it , sayes , si contraria invicem senserunt , debemus quasi judices probare meliora : so not onely taking from them all infallibility , but allowing others to judge of their doings , before they submitted unto their determinations . and this hath been the so constant observance in all times , as no age ever held the latin obliged by the grecian synods which they have not received ; neither doth the greek church to this day hold themselves tyed by the determinations of florence , or to the many other of the latin touching the procession of the holy ghost , and other points in difference , to which they have not submitted . 43. but for that the acts of councells , without temporall auctority to inforce the observance of them , were no other then persuasive , princes ( either on the incitation of their bishops , or convinced of the justnesse and piety of what had past in those ecclesiastick assemblies ) did often by their letters exhort , or by their laws command the observance of what resulted from them . so constantine , after the councell of nice , wrote that letter remains recorded in d socrates and theodoret to some absent churches , for their admitting the resolutions of it : in which he tells them he had undertook that what the romans had already , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that their judgment would willingly receive . e and gratian , valentinian , theodosius did in the year 381. by their rescripts establish the same councell , as f iustinian by the law before mentioned did all the fourfirst ; which i take to be the same * st augustin calls inserting them actis proconsularibus . 44. of later times popes , having by severall arts acquired the greatest part of episcopall power to be devolved to them , have likewise claimed it as a right belonging to the papacy , not onely to call councels , but to determine which are generall , who are to vote in them ; and therefore g though properly , or dinarie , none but bishops have there ( say they ) jus suffragii , yet ex privilegio & consuetudine cardinalls , abbats , and generalls of orders are to be allowed voice ; and that there needs no other then the popes confirmation in rome , to oblige all christians to the observance of any he shall hold out for such , as pius 4 tus by his bull of the 18 iuly 1564. declared , all in the councell of trent juris positivi did the world from the first of may before , &c. and though all history agree , and the very councells themselves assure us , the causing the east and west to meet in those assemblies , to have been ever done by emperours , and that princes on occasions have called the clergy within their estates together for composing disputes in religion ; yet the bare affirmation , without any real proof , hath so far prevailed with some men , as to esteem him little other then an heretick shall maintain the contrary . 45. but kings have not so easily parted with these rights : for the state of france , notwithstanding the many sollicitations of pope● from abroad , and their clergy at home , hath no hitherto been induced to approve what was determined at trent ; however you shall hardly meet with any of the roman party , but he will tell you that the points of faith there agreed upon , are received in france , but not of manners , and government : which is in a kind true , yet contains a notable fallacy ; for the ecclesiasticks of that kingdom finding the difficulty of procuring that councell to passe , have in their provincial synods , h conspiratione quadam , venia in quaque dioecesi cogendi synodos impetrata , inserted the greatest part of the doctrinall points of it into those councells ; so that it is truth , they are indeed there received , yet not for that they were concluded upon in trent , but because episcopall councells have each in their dioceses establisht what they could perswade nec regibus , nec supremis parlamentorum curiis , ut synodi istius canones in acta sua referrent , & observandos publicarent . neither hath the councell of florence under eugenius 4 tus , or of lateran held by iulius the 2. and leo the 10 , been hitherto allowed by france , or england , where the most zealously affected to rome , as sr thomas moore , have i maintained the superiority of a generall councell above the pope k in opposition to either of them ; though l that be a point rather of faith then manners . upon which grounds , those councells before spoken of did not bind here , farther then what was in them hath been made good by provinciall synods within the nation . by all which it being certain , neither this church nor kingdom hath ever been tyed by the acts of any forraign councell not admitted here , and being perhaps a thing of some intricacy , what determinations the realm had received after the four first generall councells , her majesty took the way of receiving them as absolutely necessary , but others with such limitations as are in m the statute , and for the future , nothing to be heresy , but what should be determined to be such by the parliament , with th' assent of the convocation . chap. ix . of the farther proceeding of queen elizabeth in the reformation . 1. things thus settled in 1º eliz. the parliament ended , the liturgy of the church , commonly called the book of common prayer , reformed , and published , the queen , a following the examples of her predecessors , and relying on the ancient symbols as the doctrine of the catholick church , gave command the creed , the pater-noster and ten commandements ( as the grounds for a christian to believe , and frame his life after ) should be taught her subjects , and none to presume to come to the lords table before they could perfectly say them in english. 2. hitherto to my understanding her majesty had not done any thing not warranted by the practise of her predecessors , not that could be justly interpreted a departing from the apostolick faith , or indeed from rome it self ; where she kept an agent . b till paulus 4 ●s during the parliament commanded him to relinquish the title of ambassadour , and not to stir out of rome . so that if there were any departure , it must needs be the pope made it , not the english ; ( who was so incensed , he would not at first acknowledge her queen , nor after permit any from her in the quality of ambassador to reside with him , though she had not done any thing but according to the ancient rights of the kingdom , and the usages of former princes . ) but suppose ( which will never be proved ) her matie to have gone farther then was fit for a christian prince in settling religion , certainly she had just cause to conceive she might do it , having so many precedents of her ancestors in the case . yet paulus 4 tus breaks off all entercourse : some of his party first would not crown her , then spake of excommunicating of her ; indignities no prince but must be sensible of . 3. yet it seems , the first heat past , the queens moderation was better received at rome then at home : where the pope , however a violent heady man , considering no doubt his own loss in breaking off all commerce with so potent a kingdom , c began to hearken to terms of accommodation , and was content things should stand as they are , the queen acknowledging his primacy , and the reformation from him . but his death ensuing the 18 august 1559. left the designe to be prosecuted by his successor pius 4 tus , who by letters ( sent by vincentius parpalia , a person of great experience , employed by cardinall poole in his former negotiations , and of late in that hither , ) of the 5th of may 1560. directed charisimae in christo filiae elizabethae reginae angliae , did assure her , d omnia de nobis tibi polliceare , quae non modo ad animae tuae salutem conservandam , sed etiam ad dignitatem regiam stabiliendam & confirmandam , pro authoritate , pro loco acmunere quod nobis a deo commissum fuit , a nobis desiderares , &c. upon this , and their relations who then lived , and had part in the action , the english affirm pius 4 tus would have confirmed the liturgy of the church of england : and indeed how can any imagine other ? for doubtlesse nothing could have been more to her dishonour , then so suddainly to have changed what she had with so great consideration establisht ; and the pope assuring her , she might promise her self from him all he could do , i know not what lesse or other he could expect she would ask . but where sr edward cook , in his charge at norwich , as it is now printed , sayes this offer came from pius 5 tu● , i conceive it a mistake , and should have been pius 4 tus , ( as in another place he names clement the 9. who yet never was , for clement the 8. ) and the rest of the narration there not to be without absurdities , and to be one of those deserves the authors censure , when he says , e there is no one period in the whole expressed in the sort and sense that he delivered it ; for certainly pius 5 tus from his coming to the popedome 1566 , rather sought by raising against her forraign power abroad , and domestick commotions at home , to force her to his obedience , then by such civil ways as we now speak of to allure her ; though the thing it self is no question true , how ever the person that offer'd it be mistaken in some circumstances . 4. they f that make a difficulty in believing this , object it to have been first divulged 1606. 46 years after the profer of it . that sr edward cook averr'd to have received it from the queen her self , not then alive to contradict him . but for my part i confess i find no seruple in it , for i have ever observed the wisdome of that court , to give what it could neither sell nor keep ; as paulus 4 tus did the kingdom of ireland to queen mary , admitted the five bishopricks erected by her father , approved the dissolution of the monasteries made by him , &c. of which nature no question this was . for the being first mentioned 46 years after , that is not so long a time but many might remember ; and i my self have received it from such as i cannot doubt of it , they having had it from persons of nigh relation unto them who were actors in the managing of the businesse . besides , the thing itself was in effect printed many years before ; for he g that made the answer to saunders his seventh book de visibili monarchia , h who it seems had been very carefull to gather the beginnings of queen elizabeth , that there might be an exact history of her , tandem aliquando , qui omnia act a diligenter observavit , qui summis re●p●blicae negotiis consulto interfuit , i relates it thus . 5. that a noble-man of this country being about the beginning of the queens reigne at rome , pius 4 tus asked him of her maties casting his auctority out of england , who made answer that she did it being perswaded by testimonies of scripture , and the laws of the realm , nullam illius esse in terra aliena jurisdictionem . which the pope seemed not to believe , her majesty being wise and learned , but did rather think the sentence of that court against her mothers marriage to be the true cause ; which he did promise not onely to retract , sed inejus gratiam quaecunque possum praeterea facturum , dum illa ad nostram ecclesiam se recipiat , & debitum mihi primatus titulum reddat . and then adds , extant apud nos articuli abbatis * sanctae salutis manu conscripti , extant cardinalis moronae literae , quibus nobilem illum vehementer hortabatur , ut eam rem nervis omnibus apud reginam nostram sollicitaret . extant hodie nobilium nostrorum aliquot , quibus papa multa aureorum millia pollicitus est , ut istius amicitiae atque foederis inter romanam cathedram & elizabetham serenissimam authores essent . this i have cited the more at large , for that camden seems to think , what the abbot of st. saviour propounded was not in writing , and because it being printed seven years before the cardinall moronas death , by whose privity ( as protector of the english ) this negotiation past , without any contradiction from rome , there can no doubt be made of the truth of it . and assuredly , some who have conveniency and leisure may find more of it then hath been yet divulged : for i no way believe the bishop of winchester would have been induced to write , it did constare of paulus 4 tus ; nor the queen her self , and divers others of those times , persons of honour and worth , ( with some of which i my self have spoken ) have affirmed it for an undoubted truth , did not somewhat more remain ( or at least had formerly been ) then a single letter of pius 4 tus , which apparently had reference to matters then of greater privacy . and here i hold it not unworthy a place , that i my self talking sometime with an ital●an gentleman ( verst in publick affairs ) of this offer from the pope , he made much scruple of believing it ; but it being in a place where books were at hand , i shew'd him on what ground i spake , and asked him if he thought men could be devils , to write such an odious lie , had it not been so . well ( says he ) if this were heard in rome amongst religious men , it would never gain credit ; but with such as have in their hands the maneggi della corte , ( for that was his expression ) it may be held true . 6. indeed , the former author doth not expresse , ( as perhaps then not so fit to be publisht ) the particulars those articles did contain were writ with the abbots own hand ; ( which later pens have divulged ) but that , in generall , it should be any thing lay in the popes power , on her acknowledging his primacy : and certain no other could by him have been propounded to her , nor by her with honour accepted , then that of his allowing the english liturgy : so that they who agree he did by his agent ( according to his letter ) make propositions unto her , must instance in some particulars , not dishonorable to her self and kingdom to accept , or allow what these writers affirm to have been them . and i have seen and heard weighty considerations , why her majesty could not admit her own reformation from rome ; some with reference to this church at home , as that it had been a tacite acknowledgment it could not have reformed it self , which had been contrary to all former precedents ; others to the state of christendom as it then stood in scotland , germany , and france : but with this i have not took upon me to meddle here . 7. yet what the queen did upon this message , seems to have given no very ill satisfaction ; for i sr edw. carne , then in rome , advised the pope the same year to invite her to the councell of trent , promising him half the kingdom with her own liking would receive his messenger ; which yet was found otherwise : the reasons why , are some toucht by historians , and may more at large be seen in sr nicholas throgmortons negotiations , then her ambassador in france . certainly k the french were not altogether out of an opinion ( or at least would have it thought so ) of her sending to the synod ; which the pope however he invited her , was not a little troubled at . but the great combination of the popish party , supported by france against england , made her see she could expect no good where they were predominant : upon which she caused the divines of her kingdom in councell to consider of a just and lawfull reformation ; who meeting 1562 , reviving the acts of a synod held at london ten years before under ed. the 6th , and explaining some few expressions , and omitting some points rather of dispute then faith , did conclude on 39 articles so just , so moderate , so fully agreeing with the doctrine of the primitive fathers , and with the ancient tenets and practise of this very church in the times of the britons and saxons , as if any shall say no clergy in any age or place have held out a more exact rule , he may be easilyer contradicted , then justly blamed , or confuted . 8. for having laid their ground , that l holy scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation , so that whatsoever is not read therein , nor may be proved thereby , is not to be required of any man , that it should be believed as an article of faith , &c. they do upon that basis establish the doctrine of the three creeds , the nicen , athanasian , and apostles , heretofore ever held to contain ecclesiarum omnium fidem , and that the m romish doctrine of purga of purgatory , pardons , worshipping & adoration of images , relicks , invocation of saints , &c. is not warranted by scripture , that is , are no articles of faith : and then proceed to settle such other things as are juris positivi , with so just a moderation , as is hardly elsewhere to be found ; changing nothing for the generall , but where the practice of their own ancestors did justify their doings , without at all extending themselves to any thing where they had not antiquity their warrant . 9. following which , they restored the cup , having the councell of clermont under vrban the 2 , that n corpus dominicum & sanguis singulatim accipiantur , the command of o paschalis the 2. and the practice of the english church , where sickly people , women as well as men , were to be provided of a pipe to receive it by ; as was p expresly injoyned the order of the gilbertines about ●200 . the thing being already printed , i need here repeat no more , but onely add , that this permission of theirs was no other but a restoring to minores ecclesias , that is parochial or country churches , that liberty peckham had deprived them of not 300 yeares before . for i do not find any prohibition , but the lay might ever have been partakers of it with us in majoribus , that is cathedrall churches ; for q lyndwood in his gloss upon the english constitutions about 1430 , propounds this question , sed numquid in istis ecclesiis cathedralibus , & aliis majoribus , liceat non celebrantibus dum communicant recipere sanguinem christiin specie vini ? videtur ex hac litera , quod sic , argumento sumpto à contrario sensu , quod est in jure fortissimum , ut &c. — & hoc bene putarem verum ; saltem quoad ministrantes sacerdoti ministranti &c. 10. for the permitting of matrimony to the clergy , it is undoubted all here had the liberty of marrying , before r lanfrank in a councell at vvorcester 1076. did rather advise then command the contrary ; which huntington ( who was himself the s son of one in holy orders ) sayes was first prohibited by anselm 1102. but t multi presbyterorum statuta concilii londoniensis — post . ponentes , suas soeminas retinebant , aut certe duxerant quas prius non habebant &c. so that his constitutions came quickly neglected , priests both marrying , and retaining their wives . at which though the king were u somewhat displeased , yet soon after * he took a piece of money of them for it , and they kept them by his leave . divers constitutions were after made by severall archbishops and legats in the point , as by steph. langton at oxford 1222 , registred by y lyndwood : ⸫ yet it is manifest they did secretly contract marriage , which some are of opinion they continued till towards the end of edward the 3 ds reign . this i am the rather induced to believe out of that in z knighton , that ⸪ iohn de alithwerl clerk was slain by his wife and servant in his own house at leicester 1344. for which fact she was burnt , and he hanged . now i conceive , had she been onely his concubine , not his servant , she had not suffer'd by the judgement of burning for the murther , but hanging onely : neither can i interpret the word clericus for other then one in holy orders , prohibited marriage by the canons of rome ; though i know , large loquendo , as our a lyndwood hath it , omnes in ecclesia ad divinum officium ordinati are sometimes so styled , b of which such as were infra subdiaconatum might retain their wives , but those were in subdiaconatu or above were to quit them . but the canons yet remaining made at sundry times , from lanfrank even to chichly , by the space of more then 300 yeares , enough assure us this point of celibat was not easily imposed on the english clergy , and assures us such ▪ as laid it might take it off again . 11. for images , if the saxons had any use at all of them in their churches ( for ornament , for history , c to which end s. gregory holds they might be permitted , for memorialls of holy men departed , ( as we have of late seen ) & they being only thus applyed , i conceive , d with the bishop of salisbury , the weight of the question not so great , ) yet it was a thing voluntary , no command of the churches injoyning it , till after the conquest . and here the question is not , whether augustine might or did bring the picture of our saviours crosse in his banner , as most protestants yet retain it ; but whether he placed them in the church , with an intent to have worship of any kind attributed unto them : for which purpose , i confesse , i have not heard of them till many yeares after ; for the vision of egwinus , and the councell of london setting up of images being made good ( so far as i know ) by no author of any antiquity , i cannot but take it e with baronius for a meerfigment . 12. it is certain , f 792 the bishops of england declared their dissent from the second councell of nice in point of images , held onely 4 yeares before , according to g diceto : and where some interpret that they did onely condemn the worship the greeks call 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by using the latin word adorare ; it cannot be denyed but they did reject that h 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the orientall bishops had established , in which sense they used the word adorare , which is often , as well in holy writ as by humane authors , taken for that reverence is given a creature , as for the religious duty we only owe to the divine majesty : see gen. xxiii . 7 , 12. ingulphus , a writer not long after , m constantinopolim pervenimus , ubi alexim imper atorem ador antes &c. so arundell in his constitutions , * adorationem crucis gloriosae . 13. to this narrative n harpsfield gives the title of commentitia & insulsa fabula , and thinks it not writ by sim. dunelmensis or mat. vvestminster ( he might have added hoveden , the ms. o history of rochester , ) but that it was anciently inserted into them . for answer to which , he would be desired to produce any one old copy without it , not mangled , so as it doth prodere furtum by wanting it : i have seen divers of hoveden mss. some of math. west . but never did one wherein it was not found , not in the margin but in the text it self , and so it is in dunelmensis his ms. at bennet colledge in cambridge . for my part , i do not know how any thing we mislike in history , may not after this manner be rejected , if a relation gathered from monuments of an elder date , which are perisht , yet cited by one who lived not so long after the time he speaks of , but they might well come to his hands , whom we find very sincere in such citations as yet remain out of more old authors then himself , ever esteemed of good credit in the church of god , and in his narration followed ad verbum by those who writing of the same matter succeeded him , i confesse , i say , if this may be cast away , as a lying & foolish fable , i know not what shall gain credit . but what will men not lay hold on in a desperat shipwrack ? i remember p baronius prest with the testimony of luitprandus in the deposition of iohn the 12. by imperiall auctority , makes no question of denying the five last chapters of his 6. book to have been written by him , though never doubted for more then 600 years since he lived . 14. another q doctor , i confesse , seems to give a more difficult objection ; that r al●uinus , who is said to have writ against the second nioen councell in the point of images , doth in his book de divinis officiis say , prosternimur corpore ante crucem , mente ante deum ; veneramur crucem per quam redempti sumus &c. and this from an author had written against images , he would have imply a veneration of them ( even in his time who opposed them ) by the english church . but what hath the reverence of the crosse to do with the worship of images ? it is not to be denyed but christians , in their talk and writings , did extoll and magnifie the crosse , forced thereunto by the gentiles , who spake ignominiously of him that dyed upon it ; yet i believe it will be difficult to shew any law or canon before the conquest , injoyning the use , much lesse that attributed any religious worship unto images . 15. it is true , the s councell of celicuith 816. did charge unicuique episcopo , ut habeat depictam in pariete oratorii , aut in tabula , vel etiam in altaribus , quibus sanctis sint utr aque dedicata , &c. which was clearly for memoriall and ornament ; as it hath been very common , in some churches , to have on the wall the image of queen elizabeth , and such as have built an isle or window , to have their statue or picture set up in it , which in some parts perhaps remain to his present ; yet no man ever held any religious duty fit to be given them , nor any man compell'd to set them up . now that there was no precept of the church commanding their use , i speak t from the rules of sempringham about 1148. that doubtlesse did not vary from the generall practise of christians here , yet hath this expresse statute ; sculpturae vel picturae superfluae in ecclesiis nostris seu in officinis aliquibus monasterii ne fiant interdicimus , qui● dum talibus intenditur , utilitas bonae meditationis vel disciplina religiosae gravitatis saepe negligitur : cruces tamen pictas quae sunt ligneae habemus . so that it seems to me they did account all pictures so superfluous as not to have them , but onely painted crosses : & this was one of the first foundation . and in another u place , which i take to be somewhat after , the buying of them and silk , as things indifferent , are alike interdicted ; yet a direction how to bestow any thing of that nature should be left them : but see the words ; nihil de serico ematur à nostris vel de nostro ad nostrorum opus , vel ad aliquid religioni contrarium , & seculi vanitatibus amminiculum , ●nec etiam ad quodlibet sacerdotale indumentum , nisi constet esse necessarium : si vero datur , secundum arbitrium prioris omnium communi utilitati & usui mancipetur . hoc idem de yconiis vel aliis sculptilibus dicimus , quae adbeatae mariae virginis vel aliorum sanctorum sunt fabricata memoriam ; quae tamen gratis * grata , prout de serico praediximus , ad sororum altare , vel hospitium , vel alio apto loco honeste ponenda decernimus . so that it is apparent then their use was esteemed no other then that of silk ; and these two articles seem to have been resolved on nigh the first foundation ( being in an hand differing from some other i shall mention ) by the founder himself . 16. in the year 1200 the house of sixle or sixhill in lincolnshire was visited by the abbat of * waredune , as commissioner of x otho the popes legat ; where about 20 articles were concluded for the government of the order : the fifth of which , though it gave some more liberty then the former , yet was not without restraint : but take it from an hand of those times . anno gratiae mcc in visitatione facta de sixl ' per abbatem de wardūn auctoritate domini otonis legati , statuta sunt haec firmiter observanda . inprimis , &c. cap. 5. item inhibetur ne picturarum varie tas aut superflu●tas sculpturarum de caetero fieri permittatur , nec liceat alicubi yconias haberi , nec imagines , praeter ymaginem salvatoris , & y. beatae mariae , & sancti johannis evangelistae . hitherto questionlesse , the church of england following the doctrine of y st gregory , had been taught by testimonies of holy writ , that omne manufactum ● adorare non liceat ; and though they might be lawfully made , yet by all means to avoid the worship of them : but see the progress . 17. sixty eight years after this , othobon , being the popes legat in england , did in his own person visit the chiefhouse of this order , and committed the others to rodulphus de huntedune , the said cardinalls chaplain , and penitentiary ; who associating to himself one richard * generall inquisitor of the order of semplingham , did in the year 1268. conclude upon 74 or 75. heads or chapters for the government of them ; the 54 of which , under the title de ymaginibus habendis , is this : item , cum secundum johannem damascenum , ymaginis honor ad prototypum , id est , ad eum cujus est ymago pertineat , ad instantiam monialium , & earum devotionem ferventius excit andam , conceduntur eis ymagines crucifixi & beatae mariae & sancti johannis evangelistae , & quod possint habere in quolibet altari dedicato ymaginem ipsius sancti in cujus honore altare dedicatum est . sitamen gratis detur eisdem , sicut beatus * g. de serico & de ymaginibus duxit statuendum , & celebretur ipso die festivitatis illius sancti , & die dedicationis ejusdem altaris , missa ad dicta altaria , etiamsi sint infra clausuram monial●um . thus they . 18. by which it is manifest , this kingdom had not then received * the 7th councell ; for if they had , there can be no thought they would have built their article upon damascens opinion onely . but by all these we may see , images were brought into this church by degrees , by little and little : first they were to have none , onely wooden crosses were tolerated ; then they might not buy any , but being given they might accept the image of our lady and other saints ; then an inhibition of all saints , except our saviour , the blessed virgin , and st iohn the evangelist , to which was added the image of that saint their altars were dedicated unto , and these onely by concession , not bought , but given . so that it is plain , they were then taken for things onely indifferent , as silk , which they might use or be without , no processions , bowings , kissing , &c. of them prescribed ; but how the practise was afterward , that chapter of arundell registred by lyndwood may tell you , which because it is long , i shall not farther repeat , it being printed , then to adde that it is in him , lib. 5. de magistris , cap. nullus quoque : and in another place he propounds this question , z numquid ymago christi sit ador anda cultu latriae ? and resolves , si consideretur ut ymago , tunc quia idem motus est in ymagiginem in quantum est ymago & ymaginatum , unus honor debetur ymagini & ymaginato ; & ideo cum christus latria adoretur , ejus imago debet similiter latria adorari . nec obstat exod. xxvi . ubi dicitur , non facies tibi ymaginem nec sculptam similitudinem ; quia illud pro eo tempore erat prohibitum quo deus humanam naturam non assumpserat , &c. 19. the synod at westminster finding things in this posture , and their retention in many parts to have been joyned with a great abuse , if not impiety , took a middle course ; first to condemn all manner of adoration or worship of them , ( and therefore every sculptile had been removed out of churches ) but whereas some use might be made of them for remembrance of histories past , to retain in sundry parts such windows and pictures , as might without offence instruct the ignorant in severall passages not unworthily preserved : which if any man have since been offended at , it must be on other grounds then i understand . 20. as they proceeded with this circumspection , not to depart from the primitive church in matters juris positivi , so did they take no less care in points of opinion ; for having declared which were the books of holy scripture , they did not absolutely reject the use of the other , though they had been a taught by the doctrine b of st hierom and c st gregory , not to repute them in canone , but to admit them quia fidem & religionem aedificant , or , as they d say , for example of life , and instruction of manners . 21. for praying to saints , however the saxons might honor holy men departed , ●o cultu dilectionis & societatis quo & in hac vita coluntur homines , as e s. augustine speaks , ( which what it is he explains elsewhere ) yet i am hardly perswaded to think they did admit any publick praying to them in the church ; for i have seen and perused three ancient saxon psalters full of prayers , but no one petition to any saint whatsoever . f eadmerus sayes the report went of vv ● the second , that crederet , & publica voce assereret , nullum sanctorum cuiquam apud deum posse prodesse ; & ideo nec se velle , neo aliquem sapientem debere beatum petrum interpellare : yet he doth not censure this as hereticall , but onely mentis elatio . g gabriel biel long after confesseth in his time , some christians as well as hereticks were deceived , in thinking saints departed nobis auxiliari nec meritis possunt nec precibus . the church of england therefore , following ⸫ s. augustine , condemns all religious invocation of them , as those were non adorandi propter religionem ; yet in respect they were honorandi propter imitationem , to retain their commemoration , by appointing a set service for the dayes on which it celebrated their memorialls ; thereby to provoke us to imitation of their piety , and to thank god that left such lights , who by their doctrine instructed us , and whose lives were examples for us to follow : and in respect there are sundry saints for whom there is no proper office , to retain one day to praise god for the generality of all , and beg of him that we may follow their pattern in all vertuous and godly living . this if any mislike , i intreat him to pardon me if i joyn not with him ; and if he will add more , to give me leave to think he attributes to them ( by what name so ever he style it ) that is onely due to the divine majesty . 22. for purgatory , however it might be held a private opinion , yet certainly as an article of faith it could not be ; for the greeks , who have ever h constantly denyed it , were in communion with the church of rome till i 1238. after which onely they began to be accounted schismaticks , not so much for their opinions , as denying subjection to the see of rome ; for some of them coming to rome 1254 k de articulis fidei & sacramentis fidei satis toler abiliter responderunt : so that questionlesse the historian could not then hold purgatory an article of faith , when those who did affirm nullum purgatorium est , did give a tolerable account of their faith. our divines therefore charge these opinions l onely as fond inventions , grounded on no warrant of scripture , but rather repugnant to the word of god ; that is , as i have said before , they deny them to be articles of faith . 23. in like manner , having first m declared the bread we break in the holy communion to be a partaking of the body of christ , and the cup of blessing of his bloud , they censure transubstantiation , or the change of the substance of bread and wine , as n what is not proved by holy writ , and therefore no article of faith &c. and indeed how could they say lesse of so doubtfull a tenet , so newly crept in , that had burnt so many , was so contrary to the ancient doctrine even of the english church , as the saxon homily yet remaining in an old mss , with this title , o a book of catholick sermons to be repeated each year , doth undoubtedly assure us ? it is true , some of late have strove to give an answer to it ; as he that styled himself p bish. of chalcedon will have the author perhaps to have been an heretick ; but that the time and title confutes , all q writers agreeing england to have been free from any heresy after s. gregory , till about the year 1166. if that therefore will not do , he hath another , viz. the sermon to make more for transubstantiation then what the protetestants cite doth against it ; yet is silent both where the words are in it , and who are the citers of them . for my part , to speak once for all , take the whole homily as it lies , not one piece torn from the other , and if the doctrine of it be such as he can digest , i know not why we differ . as for those two miracles , which some dislike so far as to think them infarced into the work , i confess them not to displease me at all ; for if they were inserted to prove the verity of christs body in the sacrament , against those who held it bare bread , yet it must be after such a ghostly and spirituall manner as is there represented , without any other change in the substance of the bread and wine then is in the water of baptism , r p. 33. not bodily but ghostly pag. 38. 36. a remembrance of christs body offered for us on the cross. p. 46. 24. and this may serve for answer to that his achilles , by which his doctrine of transubstantiation s manifestius patebit , of odo archbishop of canterbury about 940. converting miraculously the eucharist in formam carnis , ad convincendum quosdam , qui suo tempore coeperunt de ea dubitare : to which i shall first remember , that when t st augustine was prest with certain miracles of donatus and pontius , which the donatists urged to prove the truth of their doctrine , he gives this answer , removeantur ista vel figmenta mendacium hominum , vel portenta fallacium spirituum ; aut enim non sunt vera quae dicuntur , aut si haereticorum aliqua mira facta sunt , magis cavere debemus ; and after a learned discourse , he tells of some in the catholick church had happened in the time of st ambrose at milan , upon which he gives this grave censure , quaecunque talia in catholica fiunt , ideo sunt approbanda , quia in catholica fiunt ; non ideo ipsa manifestatur catholica , quia haec in ea fiunt . ipse dominus jesus cum resurrexisset à mortuis , & discipulorum oculis videndum manibusque tangendum corpus suum offerret , ne quid tamen fallaciae se pati arbitrarentur , magis eos testimoniis legis & prophetarum & psalmorum confirmandos esse judicavit , ostendens ea de se impleta , quae fuerant tanto ante praedicta , &c. and a little after , hoc in lege & prophetis & psalmis testatus est , hoc ejus ore commendatum tenemus , haec sunt causae nostrae documenta , haec fundamenta , haec firmamenta . 25. to apply this to our case ; the church catholick hath ever held a true fruition of the true body of christ in the eucharist , and not of a signe , figure , or remembrance onely , but as the french confession , u que par la vertue secrete & incomprehensible de son esprit , il nous nourrit & vivifie de la substance de son corps & de son sang , &c. and therefore we can agree to these verses : christ was the word that spake it , he took the bread and brake it : and as that word did make it , so i believe and take it . here is then a catholick sermon , commanded to be read in the church many years before the word transubstantiation was heard , as the doctrine of it , teaching me this participation with christ , however true , yet is not fleshly , but spirituall : if therefore this miracle were not to convince those held the communicating of christ in the sacrament , to have been no other then fantasticall , and the bread to have been , and conveyed no other to us then bare bread , must not i , according to st augustine , avoid it as the fancies of lying men , or the operation of deceiving spirits ? &c. and this as it may serve in generall for all miracles , so in particular for that of late divulged , of a poor mans legg cut off in spain and buried , yet four years after restored : which if it be not some imposture , as the golden tooth in silesia , or of arnald tilly ( taken in francis the 2 ds time not onely by others , but by the very wife of martin guerre , for her husband , and which held the parliament of tholous so much perplexed to resolve ) we must not ( according to this holy mans doctrine ) believe for that or any of the like nature , farther then is proved by the law and the prophets , &c. yet there is one thing in my opinion very considerable ; what the apostles did , were such , and in those places , no man could deny them : but these the church of rome holds out for confirmation of their religion , are either in corners , as garnets face in the eare , with so dark proofs , as when they are looked into , res tota cum contemptu dimissa est ; or else done in italy , or spain , where the inquisition will suffer none but themselves to examine the fact : whereas if they followed th' apostles example , they should be in england or germany , that the protestants might say , indeed a notable miracle hath been done by our lady , is manifest to all , and we cannot deny it . acts iiij . 16. 26. x another will have that homily , at least what he takes on him to confute , to contain no other then catholick doctrine ; and then falls upon the archbishop of armach , whom he conceives to have ill translated it out of the latin , in which language there is not now found any ancient copy of it ; y insisting , that though it were printed at london 1623. it was not to be heard of when he writ , which was about 1631. insinuating as if more might be said , if he could see the author himself . for the first of these , it must be said to contain catholick doctrine on the grounds z before ; but if it be that the church of rome admits for such , i am glad to understand that from him . for the primat of ireland's translating the latin to the disadvantage of the romish , i shall give no answer , but that his english are indeed some parts of that sermon , but the latin pieces of bertram so agreeing with them , as they were undoubtedly taken out of him , ( by which he gives a far elder testimony to that author then oecolampadius ) who was , no question a catholick doctor ; but being so why is he prohibited ⸪ by the roman index ? why if at all permitted , must it be excogitato commento ? for the other , that it could not be had in london only eight years after it was printed , i can say nothing , but some men will not hear that they mislike : for that homily , of which ( if he say any thing ) he speaks , first set out by iohn day , with the subscription of 15 bishops attesting the truth of the copy , after 1623 reprinted by henry seal , alwayes in the book of acts and monuments &c. a in the life of hen. the 8 , and of late by mr. vvhelock put into latin , and taken without any intervening transcription from the originall saxon , ( that he might not vary in a tittle ) was with his translation of it printed at cambridge 1644. b amongst divers other excellent notes of that learned man upon beda , that such as understand not the language , may in that point see the doctrine of our forefathers . 27. a third c doctor , who cannot deny but it makes directly against transubstantiation , gives an answer i could not have expected , yet in my opinion more ingenuous ; that it is unreasonable to produce the forcelesse auctority of these saxon homilies , which have no warrant of truth from any other but from our selves ; and the margin , these homilies were never heard of , but now of late amongst protestants , onely framed and printed by themselves , without the warrant of any one indifferent witnesse . this is , i say , what i could not have looked for . can any man imagine two archbishops , thirteen bishops , besides divers other personages of honour and credit , could have been induced to subscribe so palpable a lye ? as it must be , if this and the other passages , by them there testified to be found in the ancient monuments of this church , were lately framed . but the old books that yet d remain , writ above five hundred yeares since , do enough vindicate the protestants , in that which i dare say no one of them who alledge it do in their hearts believe , not to have been extant in them , as the archbishop first sent them to the press . 28. of the little credit the councell of lateran in this point gained here , i have e touched before : neither did peckham's constitution , sub panis specie simul dari corpus &c. speak home , nor was the thing ever absolutely determined with us till 1382 : so that the opinion of transubstantiation , that brought so many to the stake , had not with us 140 yeares prescription before martin luther began ; for in that year vvickliff having propounded , f quod substantia panis materialis aut vini manet post consecrationem &c. the archbishop taking it into g consideration , did not think fit to condemn the tenet , without farther advice with the university of oxford , h where libratis singulis , every saying weighed , ( and in especiall , as it seems , those i concerned the eucharist ) he did condemn some as hereticall , others as onely erroneous , and farther , singulos defensores eorum imposterum sententia excommunicationis innodatos fore , and gave command , k ne quis de caetero cujuscunque status &c. — haereses seu errores praedictos vel corum aliquem teneat , doceat , praedicet seu defendat . the l chancellor likewise of the academy repeating vvickliffs opinions touching the holy communion , shews they had been diligently discuss't by doctors in divinity , and professors in the canon law , ac tandem finaliter est compertum atque judicio omnium declaratum , ipsas esse erroneas , fidei orthodoxae contrarias , & determinationibus ecclesiae repugnantes : and then after all this search , delivers the doctrine of transubstantiation as the conclusion agreed to be held , quod per verba sacramentalia à sacerdote prolata , panis & vtnum in altari in verum corpus christi & sanguinem transubstantiantur , seu substantialiter convertuntur sic , quod post consecrationem non remanent in illo venerabili sacramento panis materialis & vinum secundum suas substantias , sed secundum species earundem . and this i take to have been the first plenary determination of the church of england in the case , which yet how well it will be liked by such as hold the manner of conversion to be by a m succession of christs body to the substance of the bread , i leave others to dispute . but certainly the archbishop not n adventuring to proceed in it alone , nor by his own councell , by o his extending what he did onely to the future , both for punishment and tenet , and after p long enquiry concluding the truth of it , enough proves it not to have been in former times fully resolved on in this church ; so that we may say of our auncestors , as q the iesuites here about some 60 yeares since did of the fathers , rem transubstantiationis ne attigerunt . and it may not here unfitly have a place that ⸫ iohn tissington a franciscan , whom pitseus ( from baleus , not leland , as he would have us think ) affirms to have been an assistant in this dispute at oxford 1382 , or as some 1381. cannot deny the truth of the assertion , quod panis & vinum remanent post consecrationem in naturis suis , adhuc servatur laicis , & antiquitus servabatur . and here it is not unworthy the remembring , that by the law of the 6 articles 31. hen. 8. cap. 14. ( containing in effect the body of popery ) no man was to dye as an heretick but he who denyed this tenet ; all others onely as felons , or men endangering the peace of the kingdome , by teaching contrary to what was publickly received . by which it likewise appears , in fixing th' imputation of heresy , the english looked on their home determinations , not those of any forreign church . 29. but i do not take upon me to dispute matters controversall , which i leave as the proper subject to divines ; it shall suffice onely to remember , the church of england having with this great deliberation reformed it self in a lawfull synod , with a care as much as was possible of reducing all things to the pattern of the first and best times , was interpreted ( by such as would have it so ) to depart from the church catholick ; though for the manner , they did nothing but warranted by the continuall practice of their predecessors , and in the things amended had antiquity to justify their actions : and therefore th' archbishop of canterbury , in a provinciall synod begun in s. pauls the 3 of april 1571 , and all other bishops of the same province , gave especially in charge to all preachers , to r chiefly take heed , that they teach nothing in their preaching , which they would have the people religiously to observe and believe , but that which is agreeable to the doctrine of the old testament and the new , and that which the catholick fathers and ancient bishops have gathered out of that doctrine . so that nothing is farther off truth , then to say , such as reformed this church made a new religion ; they having retained onely that which is truly old and catholick , as articles of their faith . 30. thus was religion reformed , and thus by the queen establisht in england , without either motion , or seeking any new way not practised by our ancestors , but using the same courses had been formerly traced out unto them , for stopping profaneness and impiety , when ever they peeped in the church . and certainly , to my understanding , there can be none that will with indifferency look upon those times , but he must ( however he mislike the thing done ) approve the manner of doing it . yet the favorers of rome ceased not to proclaim all had thus past to have been hereticall ( without instancing any particular , as to say such a carriage was after the manne● of hereticks , ever condemned by the catholick church , and by orthodox writers in former times , or such a tenet in your confession was held heresy from this place of scripture anciently , by such holy fathers met in generall councell ) and to raise stirs and commotions in the commonwealth , s to excommunicate the queen as flagitiorum serva , free her subjects of their allegeance , to give out we had t a parliament-religion , parliament-gospell , parliament-faith , and this before ever the 39 articles , one main pillar of the english reformation , were confirmed by parliament . 31. upon the whole , it is so absolutely false that the church of england made a departure from the church , which is the ground and pillar of truth , as i am perswaded it is impossible to prove she did make the separation from the roman it self ; but that having declared in a lawfull synod certain opinions , held by some in her communion , to be no articles of faith , and according to the precedent of former times , and the power god and nature had placed in her self , redressed particular abuses crept into her , the pope and his adherents , without ever examining what was the right of the kingdom in such like cases , that had from all antiquity done the same , would needs interpret this a departing from the church , because he resolved to maintain as articles of faith , & thrust on others as such , some ambiguous disputable questions the english did not think fit to admit into that number . to make a departure from christs church is certainly a very hainous offence , she never commanding ought but what is conformable to his will , nor * requiring her children to believe any thing as matter of faith , but what is immediately contained in the word of god , or by evident consequence drawn from it : and as she excludes no christians from being her children , who by their own demerits deserve not to be out of the divine favour ; so in opposing those who endeavour to procure some tenets to be admitted for hers , which cannot be deduced from that ground , we do not depart from her , but gainsay humane errours , and conceipts , which they would infer to be her commands who acknowledges them not . but as st augustine in a dispute with a donatist , u utrum schismatici nos simus an vos , non ego , nec tu , sed christus interrogetur , ut judicet ecclesiam suam : so may i , whether we are the schismaticks or the church of rome , christ himself be the iudge . but whether divided from the other , being matter of fact , let the histories of former times , the extraordinary proceedings of the see of rome of late against the queen and this commonwealth be compared , and i am confident the judgment may be referr'd to any indifferent person ( though of that belief ) who made the separation , and whether this kingdom on so high provocations , did any thing would not have been parallell'd by former times , had they met with the like attempts . 32. neither can the crown in this reformation be any way said to have enterprised on the papall primacy , which ( for ought i know ) it might have acknowledged so far as is exprest or deduced from holy scripture , or laid down in the ancient sacred councells , or the constant writings of the orthodox primitive fathers , and yet done what it did ; ) but to have exercised that auctority alwayes resided in it , for conserving the people under it in unity and peace , without being destroyed by the canons and constitutions of others ; not suffering a forraign power ruine them to whom it owed protection . in which it did not trench upon the rights of any , but conserved its own ; imitating therein the imperiall edicts of severall princes , and of those were in possession of this very diadem , conformable to their coronation oath . 33. and from hence may be answered that which rome brings as her achilles , touching the succession and visibility of the protestants church and doctrine in all ages since christ : for if theirs have been , it is impossible to say the others have not ; the former adding onely more articles for a christian to believe , which the latter will not embrace as needfull : so that if theirs ( as they so much glory ) have had the continuance from the apostles , these needs must , which onely denies some part of that they hold . a protestants ( says stapleton ) have many things lesse then papists , they have taken away many things which papists had , they have added nothing . and here to my understanding the romanists require of us what lies on their part to prove ; for we denying in the succession of bishops from cranmer , warehom , even to augustine , and so of the britons , ever any one to have held the points we differ in to have been points of faith , in that degree of necessity they are now required , and for proof cite not onely the apostles , nicen , athanasian creeds , but even that of peckham , which we find so to differ from the late one set out by pius 4 tus , as we cannot but say it is unjust in them to presse us to a profession in religion farther then our ancestors were ; they on the contrary affirming all those holy bishops preceding , not onely believed them as these now do , but did require them of others with the like necessity they now are ; ought certainly to prove what they thus boldly affirm , which when they have done , truly for my part i shall think fit to yield : but till they do it , let them cease from proclaiming us hereticks , who hold no other then the ancient faith at first deliver'd unto us . but this as a point rather dogmaticall for divines , then historicall , the subject i undertook , i shall not here farther wade into . finis . errata . correct . p. 1. lin . 1. more than read allmost   10 christian   christians 5 15 genenerale   generale 7 18 they addresse   they did addresse 9 1 know   knew cap. 3. 7. precetor   precentor 47 1 prius de fidelitate &   prius romano pontifiel de fidelitate & 52 4 find at all   find it at all 67 10 suffer for   suffer death for 79 13 episcopus & clerus   episcopi & clerus 81. in margine ad lit . f. cap. 23.   cap. 3. 141 2 whethe   whither 151 3 glasse   glosse 157 4 albigenses   albigensi●   31 qui el   que il .   39 assent , de lour .   auferatur comma 173 2 of pope   of the pope notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a64064-e180 a veneranda antiquitas , cujus praescrip●o cuncta bene geri in ecclesia catholica consueverunt . baron . annal. tom . 8. anno 692 , n. 5. b non p o arbitrio disser●ntium , verbisque pug●amium homi●um , sacra dogmata romana ecelesia defini●et ; sed quae ab apostolis tradita , à majoribus deducta , à patribus servata accepisset , haec ipsa , utpote sacrosancta , universae ecclesiae se●vand● , atque inviolabili l●ge custodienda , eadem ecclesta romana praescri●eret ; baron . tom . 7. anno 535. n. 90. c sanctissimos patres in interpre●atione scripturarum non semper & in omnibus catholica ecclesia sequitur , tom . 1. anne 34. n. 213. notes for div a64064-e900 a valentinian novel 24. i● fi● . cod . theod. b stat. 25. hen. 8. cap. 14. c apud knighton . col . 2648 , & in fasciculo zizaniorum mss fol. 64. a col . 1. in biblio theca archiepiscopo armachani . d concil . constant . sess . 8. art , 41. e vide concordata inter hen. 2. & alexandrum 3. 1172. edwardum 3. & gregor . 11. 1373. henricum 5. & martinum . 5. 1418. a baron . to ▪ 1. a. 35. n , 5. b niceph. calist . lib. 2. cap , 40. c metaphrastes junii de eo vide baron , to . 1. ao. 60. n. 4. bed. l. 1. c. 4. d beda lib. 3. cap. 25. confer . euseb. hist. lib. 5. cap. κδ ' . e in multis nostr● consuetudini , — contraria geritis apud bed. lib. 2. cap. 2. august , britonibus : f prosper . in chronico ann. 432. g beda lib. 1. cap. 17. * vide cap. 2. n. 2. * ioh. diac. l. 1. cap. 21. vita gregor . beda lib , 2 , cap , 1. h concil . spelm. p. 108. i galfrid monumeten ubi agit de augustino prope finem . k lib. 2. cap. 2 l giral i●in . camb. lib. 2. cap. 1. m baronius paraenesis ad rempub , venetam p , 52. atque his tandem sinisesto , sed doleo vehementèr quod absque valete . iohannes enim apostolus id vetat & ●um eo omnis simul ecclesia quod indignos salu●atio●e justè judice● qui non communicantes romanae ecclesiae omnis penitus sunt salutis expertes ( 2. iohan . ) a eadmer . p. 12 , 29. p. 137 , 1. g●rvas . dorobern , col , 1661 , 54. b lyndwood de poenis . cap. tanquam . c gervas . dorobern . col . 1566 , 10. d sic lynd. ubi supra , at ger. dorobern . col . 1382 , 61. col . 1429 , 23 e sic lyndwood , at ger. dorobern . col . 1382 , 61. col . 1429 , 23. rof . at 1565. 1. wigor . f malms . fol. 121. a & diceto col . 437 , 64. g rodulph . arch. epist. inter script . x. angliae , &c. col . 1736 , 17. h malms . fol. 121 ; a , 8. i beda lib. 4. cap. 2. k lib. ms. in aula tri●itatis cantabrig . l hall 20. hen. 8. f. 179. m divisus ab orbe nostro britannus , si in religione processerit , quaerit locum fama sibi tantū & scripturarum relatione cognitum . epist . paulae & eustochii de commigrat . bethlchem , inter opera hieronymi script . circa ann. 386. n lib. 4. ● . 23. beda . o troubles at frankford pag. xxxvi . edit . 1575. p ibid. pag. ●1 . q ibid. pag. ●xlvii . r ibid. p. ●lix . s concil . general . edit . romae 1608 , ●o . 1. pag. 498. a. t beda l. 4. cap. 5. u concil . spelm. ann. 787. p. 293. x pag. 58 , 4● . y caus. 2. q. 1. cap. 7 , 15. q. 2. cap. 2. 3. 4. &c. z ingulph . fol. 500. a. 43. a vide literas paschal . 2. hen. 1. apud . eadme●um , pag. 113. pag. 115. b eadmer . pag. 38 , 35. c eadmer . p. 39 , 30. d eadmer . pag. 26 , 1. e ibid. pag. 52 , 17. f — nil judicii vel subventionis per romanum praesulem nacti . eadmer . pag. 53 , 28. g eadmer . pag. 56 , 7. h eadmer . p. 18 , 4. p. 20 , 35. i ibid. pag. 70 , 9. k eadmer . pag. 92 , 40. vide concil . spelm. pag. 166 , 9. l hen. knighton 1296. col . 2491. vide mat. west . & wm. thorne . m de immunitate eccles. cap. 3. in s●xto . et tit. ●odem cap. 1. in clement . n eadmer . p. 70 , 5. o apud eadmer . pag. 59 , 48. p ibid. pag. 56. 22. q ibid. p. 73 , 13. r pag. 75 , 27. ibid. s ibid. pag. 79 , 24. t eadmer . pag. 80 , 27. u ibid. p. 63 3. x eadmer . pag. 91 , 21. y ibid. p. 87 , 35. z ibid. p. 100 , 1. a gervas . derobern . anno 118● . col . 1503 , 36. r. de glanvilla abbati de bello , &c. praecipio tibi ex parte domini regis , per fidem quam ei debes & per sacramentum quod ei fecisti , &c. wm. thorn , ann. 1220. col . 1873 , 56. hugo 3. abbas s ● . augustini gratanter admissus juravit fidelitatem d. regi super crucem ipsius ▪ legati . b mat. paris pag. 440 , 17. anno 1237. lond. 1640. c eadmer . pag. 125 , 53. p. 6 , 25. p. 113 , 1. d eadmer . pag. 58 , 41. e eadmer . p. 113. p. 116. f eadmer . pag. 118 , 28. g pag. 120. h ordericus vitalis pag. 857 , d. pag. 858 , a. i cap. 8. k baron . to . 11. anno 1079. n. 25. & lanfranci epist. 7. l eadmer . p. 125 , 51. m eadmer . pag. 137 , 46. pag. 138 , 21. n eadmer . pag. 116 , 23. o ibid. p. 125. 21. p answer to sr. ed. cook , de jure regis ecclesiast c. 9. ● ▪ 8. p. 200. q eadmer . p. 6 , 23. & lib. 2. per totum . p. 113 , 1. &c. p. 115. r hen. 1. epist . apud jorval . col . 999 , 46 , 49. s eadmer . p. 59 , 50. ⸫ vide cap. 5. n. 4. t baron . 11. ann. 1059. n. 23. u maurocen . hist. ven. ann. 1 cor. p. 629. c. ann. 1609. p. 687. b. card. ossat . epist. romae 17. sept. 1601. x narrantur haec p. 56. 57. in vita henrici chichley ab arthuro duck edit . 1617. y ro● . parl. 17. ed. 3. n. 59. in sine . 25. ed. 3. oct. puri● . n. 13. 7. h. 4. n. 114. 3. h. 6. n. 38. ●ee cap. 4. n. 20. z malms . de l ontis . l. 1. in anselm . fol. 127. 15. gervas . dorobern . col . 1527 , 58. a eadmer . p. 58 , 44. b ibid. p. 115 , 17. c diceto col . 437 , 64. d eadmer . pag. 27 , 34. principi vestro anselmo . e ibid. p. 107 , 33. pag. 113 , 47. f gervas . dorobern . col . 1663 , 55. g eadmer . p. 30 , 9. h eadmer . pag. 113 , 47. continuatio florent . wigorn. ann. 1136. pag. 513. i gervas . dorobern . col . 1663 , 55. k florent . wigorn. ann. 1070. l post , n. 18 , 10 , 60. m supra n. 11. n vid. mat. paris ann. 1246. p. 699 , 10. vide post n. 38. in textu & in margine . o malms , fol. 152 , b. 12. see n. 8. ⸫ ibid. de regibus lib. 1. fol. 16. p gervas . dorobern . col . 1663 , 55. q ibid. col . 1485 , 63. r non est a●te haec tempora archiepiscopo cantuariensi talis illata injuria , ut in provincia ejusdem archiepiscopi , immo & in ecclesia , ut de cruce sileam , legatus aliquis mitratus incederet . gervas . dorobern . ann. 1186. col . 1485 , 63. s ger. dorobern . ann. 1187. col . 1531 , 38. t concil . spelman . pag. 293. u florent . wigorn. ann. 1070 , pag. 434. x vita lanfranci cap. 7. p. 7. col . 1. d. y note , you must 〈◊〉 these subscriptions in the london edition 1572. for in that of hanau 1605. they are for the most , ( i know not on what warrant , ) omitted . z diceto col . 485 , 24. a in ●ibliotheca cotton fol. lxxiiii . b mat. paris hist. minor . ann. 1107. c ● thess. iii. 12. d philem. 8. e knox hist. church of scotland p. 93 ▪ edit . 1644. f ibid. p. 110 g epitaph . nepotiani ad heliodorum to . 1. h eadmer . pag. 92 , 40. p. 125 , 29. i gervas . dorobern . col . 1315 , 66. 1316 , 8. & 1318 , 39. 1359 , 41 , 59. w mus thorn 1802 , 26. 1848 , 28. and these may serve in lieu of many others may be alledged . k ger. dorobern . col . 1558 , 54. l ibid. col . 1663 , 24. col . 1615 , 62. * si episcopi tramitem justitiae in aliquo transgrederentur , non esse regis , ( viz. alone , ) sed c●●onum judicium , sine publico & ecclesias●ico concilio illos nulla possessione privari debuisse ; regem id non rectitudinis zelo , sed commodi sui compendio fecisse . malms . fol. 103. a. 18. reports this saying of a legat. see n. 24. m contra crescon . gramm●att . l. 3. cap. 51. to . 7. n malms . de pont. lib. 1. fol. 118 , a. to fol. 120 , b. o antiquit. britan. ecclesiae , in simone●slep ●slep . p. 269 , 15. p de auctoritate & usu pallii cap. 4. q de electione & electi potestate c. 4. r lyndwood de temp . ordinand . cap. 2. ad verbum expresse . s philip. iiii . 3. t wm. thorn. col . 1801 , 53. u ibid. 1814 , 34. x gervas . dorobern . ann. 1193. col . 1602 , 64. y ordericus vitalis pag. 862. z simeon dunelmensis ann. 1125 , col . 251 , 61. a eadmer . pag. 107. 33. pag. 113 , 4. ger. dorobern . col . 1663 , 55. b inusuata novitas . dorobern . ibid. c ger. dorobern . acta ●ont . ibid. col . 1663 , 42. d thomas stubs , act. pont. ebor. col . 1730 , 30. e supran 18. f apud sim. dunelm . col . 252. 22. g iohn xxi . 15 , 16 , 17. h apud eadmer . pag. 115 , 9. 〈◊〉 . 1115. i ecclesiarum praepositi . k eadmer . pag. 27 , 37. l ordericus vitalis pag. 862 , §. omnes . m petr. blesens . epist. 148. n de consideratione ad eugen . lib. 2. cap. 8. o ext. com. de majoritat . & obedient , c , 1. p malms . de pont. lib. 1. fol. 131. b. 39. q gervas . dorobern . col . 1663 , 64. r eadmer . pag. 14 , 13. pag. 30 , 9. pag. 93 , 3. s ibid. 58 , 43. t apud eadmer . p. 115. 48. & * pag. 129 , 52. seen . 20. u see bed. lib. 4. cap. 2 , 6● gervas . dorobern . col . 1638 , 37. x mat. pa●●● 1095 , pag. 20. 46. ailredus col . 406 , 10. y flor. wigor . pag. 55● . z beda lib. 3. cap. 7. lib. 4. cap. 6 , 12. li. 5. cap. 19. a eadmer . pag. 95 , 50. b gloce●●●● and chester in parliamen● 1 mar. 2. april 1554. parl. 2. item parl. the 3. 12 november 1554. ● . and ● ph. & mar. iournall des seigneurs : yet the act of reconciling this kingdome to rome , and confirming those bishopricks by the pope , past not till the 30. of november after , however they were reputed lawfull bishopricks before . c caus. 3. quaest . 6. cap. 7. & de 〈◊〉 , epist. cap. 2. bellarm. lib. 4. de eccles. cap. 8. §. ratio , &c. d apud malmsb. fol. 152 , a. 34. * 1127. e baron . tom . 8. ann. 676. n. 10. f n. 40. p. 3● g florent . wigorn. annis 1126. 1127. & alii . h apud malmsbur . fol. 101. iohannes ha●ulstad . col . 259 , 9. richardus hagulstad . col . 314 , 18. vid. col . 313 , 32. i gervas . dorobern . col . 1344 , ● . k gervas . dorobern . col . 1346 , 58. l eadmer . p. 6 , 29. p. 24. 11. m ger. dor. ibid. lin . 65. n cap. 9. apud gervas . dorob . 1348. & richard. hagust . 328. o n. 30. p malms . fol. 103. a. 1. b. 54 , 55. q h. hunt. fol. 225. a ●6 . ann. 1142 , 8. steph. r malms . fol. 103. a. 31. s ger. dorobern . col . 1343 , 44. t wm. thorne col . 1853 , 32. u gervas . dorobern . col . 1665 , 24. indignatus theobald ▪ x iohan. hagulstad , col . 275 , 42. interdixit episcopo , episcopale & sacerdotale officium . y num. 40. z malmsb. f. 149 , a. 50. a bed. lib. 5. cap. 20. & in iugulpho ms. se● addi●ionibus eius , in biblio●●●●a cotton ▪ * stubs de archiepisc , ebor. col . 1691. 10. b malm. fol. 150 , a , 43. c ibid. fol. 152. a ▪ 32 , 34 , d beda lib. 4. cap. 2. e apud malmsbu● . f. 10. b , 23 , 36● f stubs de archiepisc. ebor. in wilfrido col . 1691 , 10. g bed. lib. 4 ▪ cap. 2. cap. 9. lib. 5. cap. 20. h blasius dasium de proditione appellabat . liv. lib. 26. such were those appeals in parliament , the 11. and 21. of ric. the 2. which might be otherwise called accusations . i eadmer . pag. 39 , 21 , 30. k apud hadmer . p. 113 , 3. l ibid. p. 115. 33. m pag. 85 , 41. * henry the 1st . n fabiani epist . 3. & sixti 3. tom . 1. concil . & apud gratian. c. 3. q. 6. cap. 1. leg. hen. 1. cap. 5. p. 178. 28. o leg. hen. 1. pag. 179 , 9. p hunt. fol. 227. b. 7. & alii . q gervas . dorobern . col . 1387. r epist. 159. pag. 254. s gervas . dorobern . col . 1396. t apud hoveden , ann. 1166. fo . 287. b. 44. apud dicet . ann. 1168. ⸫ apud hoved . fol. 314. b. 3. u gervas . dorobern . ann. 1176 , col . 1433 , 19. x epist. coelestini apud hoveden . ann. 1195. fol. 426. b. 26. y eadem epist. z idem , f. 427. a. 26. lin . 38. a hoveden , ann. 1195 , fol. 427. a. 48. b ibid. f. 428. a. 42. c hoved. ann. 1196. fol. 434. a. 23. d ibid. fol. 435. b. 52. e ibid. fol. 442. b. 19. f hoveden , ann. 1●01 . fol. 465. a. 21 g hoveden , ann. 1195. fol. 430. b. 37. h magna charta apud mat. paris pag. 258 , 53. lond. 1640. i mat. paris ann. 1224. pag. 323 , 28. k bulla gregor . ix . in antiquo ms. dat . interamnae 27. iunii , 1236. * frivola appellatio quae dicitur , vide lindwood cap. 2. verbo frivole , de appellationibus . scil . quae vana & inanis — vel quando nulla causa est expressa , vel non legitima , dato quod sit vera , vel licet sit legitima , est tamen manifeste falsa . et vide ibid. verbo pallietut . ⸫ at viterbo 4. martii , 1235. l col. 1665 , 23. * sic ms. sed legendum tuae . ⸫ at perusium 6 maii 1235. at lions the 19 september see before n. 17. cap. 2. n. 17 ▪ m apud mat. paris p. 〈◊〉 . n note , this is omitted in the copy of this letter in mat. paris which is found in other ms. copies of the same , as in one my learned friend mr. wm. dugdale helped me to the sight of , the book it self belonging to mr. roper of lin●olus inne , in which it is fol. 117 , b. and ought to be in all ; for in the gravamina angliae sent to the same pope 1246. one is , quod anglici extra regnum in causis auctoritate apostolicâ trahuntur . mat. paris pag. 699 , 10. o regist. 193 , b. cook , instit. 3. pag. 179. p parl. at cambridge 12. ric. 2. cap. 15. apud henricum knighton col . 2734 , 40. 5. ric. 2. cap. 2. q hen. knighton col . 2601 , 44. * henry beaufort . r rot. parl. 10. hen. 6. n. 16. * halle 20. hen. 6. the complaint made by the duke of glocester against the said cardinall , art. 2. * rot. parl. 8. hen. 6. n. 17. s philip scot of schism of england pag ▪ 174. t ff . de officio praefect . iraetor . leg . unica . vide cassiodor . lib. 6. rariar . 3. u wm. thorn col . 1804 , 44. x iohan. hagulstad . col . 273 , 61. ann. 1145. y de officio legati cap. 1. z vide ●ochell . decreta eccles. galsican . pag. 918. concil . trident . sess . 5. cap. 1. 2. & multis aliis locis . a in theobaldo p. 115 , 47. edit . 1572. b seculo xii . p. 328 , 15. c ann. 1195. col . 679 , 7. d ger. dorobern . col . 1663 , 64. ⸫ the bishop of ely 1191. says rich. the 1. acquired him that honour . ger. dorobern . col . 1565 , 46. and the king himself expostulates in hoveden with the bishop of hostia , that it cost 1500. marks . hoved . ann. 1190. col . 380. b. 14. so that the court of rome knew how to turn this , notwithstanding all opposition , to it s no small advantage . e eadmer ▪ 62 , 34 ▪ malms . f ▪ 137. a , 5 , f eadmer . ibid. lin . 37. g vide petri blesens . epist . 68. h eadmer . pag. 58 , 44. i g. dorob . col . 1663 , 55. k vide bul . iohan. 22. apud gulielm . thorn , col . 2041 , 1. l de officio legati cap. 9. gloss. ad verbum commissam . m vide ger. dorobern . ann. 1188. col . 1532 , 55. & 1533 , 8. n hoveden , ann. 1189. fol. 377. a. 10. o diceto col . 649 , 42. ger. dorob . p habetur in vita henrici chichley ab arthuro duck edita . 1617. q m. paris ann. 1240. pag. 524. 43. r de pallio cap. 6. s aul. gellius noct. at●ic . lib. 9. cap. 2. t euseb. hist. lib. 6. cap. 13. graec. k. u tertul. de pallio cap. 6. x concil gangrense circa ann. 350. can . 12. y pallium nihil aliud est nisi discretio inter archiepiscopum & ejus suffraganeos . alcuinus de divinis officiis cap. quid significent vestimenta . z gregor . lib. 12. epist. 15. a greg. lib. 7. epist. 112. b hieron . rubeus hist. ravennae . italia sacra , to . 2 col . 331. & 332. c to . 5. ann. 432. n. 93. d baron . to . 7. ann. 536. n. 17. e brevic. liberat . cap. 21. to . 2. concil . f lib. 1. epist. 27. g greg. lib. 6. epist. 5. indict . 1. * diceto ann. 1142. col . 508. h lib. 1. epist . 136. apud baron . to . 2. ann. 216. n. 15. & to . 7. ann. 553. n. 7. i lib. 7. epist. 129. indic . 2. k itin. cambr. lib. 2. cap. 1. hoved. ann. 1199. fol. 453. b l thom. stubbs invit . archiepiscop . ebor. col . 1697. 2. m bed. lib. 5. cap. 20. vide lib. 4. cap. 12. n sim. dune●m . epist. ad hugonem col . 78 , 49. & t. stubs , col . 1697 , 15. o ibid. col . 79 , 25. & col . 1698 , 57. p part. 5. can . 136. q dist. 100. cap. 1. r lib. 7. epist. 5. s lib. 4. epist. 44. ind. 13. t florent wigorn. pag. ●95 . & ingulph . fol. 508. a. 53. malms . f. 41. b. 39. u graviter mutuatam , eadmer . pag. 98 , 30. x mat. paris pag. 274 , 4. y in catalog . episc. in fiue archiepise . tam cant. quam ebor. z autiq. britan . lond. pag. 382 , 32. hannoviae pag. 327 , 48. a vide baron ▪ to . 11. ann. 1071. n. 21 , 25. & inter lanfranci epist. 7. pag. 304. b eadmer . pag. 25 , 40. vide lanfranci epist. 59. pag. 329. col . 1. §. nonlando . c eadmer . pag. 38. p. 39. peri●● . d ibid. p. 40 , 5. 32. e lanfranc . epist. 8. pag. 305. col . 1. f col . 663 , 6. * note , where you read in the lives of the abbots p. 140 , 22. regalem , and in his hist. p. 414 , 22. regalis , both should be regalia , for so we find it at the end of the councell of vienna , 10. 4. concil . gen . romae 1608. & 1612. agreeing with an old copy of that oath i have seen in th' exchequer , which the decretalls de jure jurando cap. 4. read thus : papatum romanae ecclesiae & regulas sanctorum patrum adjutor er● , &c. but ordericus raynaldus 10. 13. ann. 1233. n. 65. citing out of the records in the vatican the oath st. edmund archbishop of canterbury took , reads it rightly regalia . g baron . 10. 12. ann. 1102. n. 6 , 7 , 8. h de electione & electi potes●ate cap. 4. i eadmer . p. 34 , 33. k eadmer . p. 113 , 43. l diceto col . 534 , 8. ger. dorober . col . 1307. 2. ⸫ de rom. pont. lib. 3. cap. 11. §. iuramentum . m de elect. & elect. potest . cap. 28. §. 2. verbo praeterea . n de auctor . & usu pallii cap. 3. vid. concil . lateranense sub innocentio 30. cap. 3. o eadmer . pag. 22 , 19. p ibid. pag. 6 , 46. pag. 23 , 31. pag. 111 , 6 , 18 , 32. q ibid. pag. 23 , 42. p. 111 , 32. & passim apud historicos . r de jurejurando cap. 4. s mat. paris vit. abbat . pag. 140 , 31. t mat. paris hist. major . pag. 410 , 39. u vit. abbat . pag. 140 , 39. x ibid. pag. 141 , 49. y ibid. pag. 142 , 1. z mat. par. vit. abbat . pag. 133 , 23. pag. 141 , 52 , 56. ⸫ sess. 25. cap. 2. a vitae abbat . st. albani ms. in iohanne 3. abbate 25. b wmus thorn , col . 1899 , 22. c ibid. col . 1880 , 3. d acts xx . 17 , to the end . e cap. 5. tom . 1. concil . f novel . 123. cap. 10. g baron . to . 9. ann. 743. n. 19. * capit. car. &c. lib. vii . cap. 108 , 109. h concil . spelm. pag. 237 , 238. i confer concil . spelm p. 238 , §. ut episcopi , & p. 251 , cap. 25. k eadmer . pag. 113 , 2. l tom . 4. concil . gen . rom. m cap. 26. concil . lateran . n mat. paris ann. 1257. pag. 951. 41 , 44. o pag. 956 , 7. p reynald . annal. eccles. to . 14. ann. 1257. n. 50. * monasticon anglicanum pag. 296. col . 1. q vitae abbat . ms. r mat. paris pag. 972 , 51. s w m thorn , col . 2185. & sequent . col . 2153 , 46. t card . ossat . epist. 296. rom. 22 decembr . 1601. u cypr. epist. 68. n. 4. edit . pamelii . x epist. 110. y cap. 13. * turbis . & apud gratianum , dist. 63 , cap. 6. * milevis . z august . epist. 110. a leo epist. 89 , cap. 5. b caroli magni capit. lib. 1. cap. 84. c lib. 2. epist. 26. ind. 10. epist. 22 , 26. ind. 11. & alibi . d vide continuat . flor. wigorn. ann. 1128. p. 506. ann. 1139. pag. 532. e ailred de miraculis edwardi , col . 406. 37. f epist. edwardi 3. apud walsingh . pag. 151. 42. ann. 1343. g rot. parl. 50. ed. 3. n. 94. h ibid. n. 111. i additament . mat. paris ms. in bibliotheca çotton . fol. 135 , a. cui initium dicturus , &c. of which hereafter . k a willielmo lanfrancus electus est . malms . fol. 116 , b. 38. rex constituit lanfrancum archiepiscopum cant. florent . wigor p. 436. ann. 1070. sim. dunelm . col . 202 , 6. l eadme● . p. 6 , 41. m vide ibid. p. 16 , 48. p. 17 , 18. n ibid. p. 109 , 40. &c. o hunt lib. 7. fol. 219 , a. 1. p apud eadmer . pag. 93 , 42. q ann. 1175 , col . 587 , 21. r vide eas apud malmsburiensem fol. 118 , a. 32. s lanfranc . epist. 3. pag. 301. t stubs de arch. ebor. col . 1706 , 31 ▪ u eadmer . p. 118 , 5 , 15. * eadmer . p. 120 , 50. p. 121 , 6. y eadmer . pag. 125. z sim. dunelm . ann. 1120. col . 242 , 25. a eadmer . pag. 136 , 43. b beda , lib. 4. cap. 1. note , malmsbury fol. 26. a. ●3 . says this was ann. 904. but that agrees not with formosus his popedome : baronius therefore corrects it to . 10. and makes ann. 894. n. 11. but at that time edward was not king. c flor. wigorn . p. 47● . d eadmer . pag 92 , 14. e supra n. 20. f hoc per literas olini mandaverat . eadmer . g eadmer . pag. 113. pag. 115. h diceto col . 506 , 507. i vide iohan. hagulstad . ab ann. 1142. ad ann. 1152. ⸫ bernard . epist. 106 ▪ 234 , 235 , 237 , 238. k iohan. hagulst . col . 276 , 8. l mat. paris ann. 1207. pag. 222 , 40. m diceto col . 507 , 53. & 508 , 20. * mat. paris ann. 1206 , p. 214 , 44. n tulla gregor . 9. apud mat. paris ann. 1229. pag. 355 , 46. o mat. paris pag. 355 , 44. p additament . mat. paris ms. in bibliotheca cotton . sol . 135. cui initium , dicturus quod injunctum est mihi q mat. paris hist. minor . ann. 1252. pag. 287. fol. 143. b. col . 1. ms. in bibliotheca regia westmonast . r roger , hoved . fol. 453. b. 39. 454. b. 2. gervas . dorobern . col . 1682 , 27. in vitâ huber . s in antiquo ms. bullarum romanorum . pontificum archiepisc , cant. pulla 〈◊〉 . honor. 3. ⸫ 26. febr. 12●1 . t in eodem ▪ ms. gregor . 9. bulla 3. ⸫ april . 17 : ann. 1230. u mat. pariss p. 371 , 18. x mat : paris ▪ ann ▪ 1241. p● . 549 , 18 , 22● , &c. y idem ann● . 1240 , p. 5329 , 43. z apud mat. paris p. 6●7 , 36. a cap. 4. n. 17. b mat. paris ann. 1246. pag. 6●9 , 9. c cardinal . ossat . epist. 296. d●t . rom , 1601. decembr . 2● . d rot. parl. 3. r. 2. n. 37. e w m thorn 2082 , 2. & sequent , vide walsingham ann. 1374. pag. 184 , 1. thorn , ann. 1373. col . 2187 , 57. see the history of nicholaus de spyna resigning the abby of st. augustins , and on his nominating him , thomas fyndon prefer'd to be abbot thereby martin the 4. who on the receipt of the papall bulls , acquainted edward the 1. with what had past at rome himself being in england ; yet by command the house was seized into the kings hand , and he at the parliament held at acton burnell fined at 400. marks , pro eo quod sic fuerat creatus in abbatem , licentia domini regis minime petita . thorn , col. 1939 , 1. & 1934. f fide varias lectiones ad col . 2117. 54. quae vero ibi debent interseri pertinent ad hist. de qua hic agitur col . 2082. g hen. knighton col . 2601. 37 , 49. h rot. parl. octav . p●rif . 25. ed. 3. n. 13. see the words of the peition , cap. 4. n. 15. i walsing . hist. 1374. pag. 184 , 6. rot. parl . 1. r. 2. n. 66. thorn , 1373. col . 2187 , 58. k rot. parl. 50. ed. 3. n. 110 , 115. * gregory 11. k ● . ric. 2. cap. 3. 7. ric. 2. cap. 12. l christi vicarii sacerdotes sunt qui vice christi legatione funguntur in ecclesia . eusebii papae epist . 3. to . 1. concil . electum à fratribus christi vicari●m suscipiant , ( scil . in abbatem : ) hydensium leges ab ●dgaro cap. 15. concil . spelm. pag. 440. quis locus poterit esse tutus , si rabies sancta sanctorum cruentat ? & vicarios christi , alumnos ecclesiae dilacerat ? epist. w i , senonensis , apud hoved , ann. 1171. fol. 299. b. 32. de marie thomae archiepiscopi . m gervas . dorobern . col . 1422 , 18. hoved fol. 303. a. 1. ann. 1172. n iohan. sarisbur . epist. 279. p. 483. ⸫ epist. hen chichly in vita ejus , pag. 79. o fitz. excommengement , 4 , 6 , 10. p ●ide hoveden . fol. 284. b. 23. q ex antiquo ms. r ●oram . hoveden . s pag. 103 , 43. t girolamo catena vita di pio 5 to . pag. 96 , 97. 98 , 100. in 8 vo . romae 1587. & adriani hist. lib. 19. pag. 1378. a. u ger. dorobern . col . 1422 , 50. x pag. 6. y 2. h. 4. accion sur le case . 25. fitz. * 31. ed. 3. excommengement . 6. z froissard . to . 1 , cap. 47. pag. 58. gall. * benedictus xii . iacobus meierus an●al . flandr . ann. 1 ▪ 40. fol. 141 , a. a assise lib. 30. placit . 19. b walsingham hist. ann. 1358. pag. 165 , 48. c vide hoved . fol 284. b. 13. rot. parl. 16. march , 3. h. 5. ▪ n , 11 , see the 9. 11. 4. 11. 37. d gervas . dorobe● . col . 1552 , 51. e bellarm. recognit . pag. 21. edit . ingolstat . 1608. f tacit. de moribus germanorum . vide lanfranci epist . 8. p. 305. g beda lib. 4. cap. 17. h malmsbur . fol , 150 , &c. i vide eadmer . pag. 62 , 36. lanfranci epist. 20. pag. 311. k florent , wigorn. ann. 1070. pag. 435. & 436. sim dunelm . col . 29● . l baron . 10. 11. anno 1071. n. 11. m lanfranci epist. 27 , 28. & apud eadmer . pag. 13. n malms . de pontif . lib. 1. fol. 121. b. 27. vita lanfranci cap. 12. pag ▪ 13. c. col . 1. o florent . wigorn. ann. 10●7 . pag. 449. p vide gervas . do●obern . ann. 1087. col . 1503 , 38. q malms . de regibus lib. 1. fol. 15. b. 34. ⸫ diceto ann. 1142. mat. west . r leg. hen. 1. cap. 73. pag. 204 , 29 , * legendum nunnae cum ms. london . seld. & nostro , non nimio , ut ms. schachar . t leg. hon. 1. cap. 31. p. 187. 29. u ibid. cap. 5. pag. 17● , 28. x ingulph . sol . 522 , a. 6. y eadmer . pag. 29 , 23. z ro● . parl. 18. ed. 3. n. 23. 24. pet . 1. du clergie . a walsing . hist. ann. 1344. p. 155 , 1. b protinus in tellexerunt quod prius n●n animadverterunt . eadmer . p. 29 , 21. c beda latin-saxon edit . 1644. lib. 2. cap 6 p. 123. lib. 4. cap. 18. p. 302. & a. libi . d epist. 113 , 148. vide ▪ stubs de archiepisc. ebor . in aldredo col . 1703 , 37. 1704 , 13. vide supr . c. 2. n 72. e ●eg . edwardi confessoris cap. 17. seldeni notae ad eadmer . p. 155 , 12 , &c. f rot. parl. at glocest. n. 7● . in ●ounullis libris impressis cap. 6 , & 7. g bernard . de consideratione lib. 3. cap. 3. h rot. parl. 1. iien . 6. n. 43. * philip scot his treatise of schisme , p. 165. ⸪ i will not undertake to maintain that the pope is antichrist , professing my weakness & ignorance of those propheticall scriptures to be so great , that i dare not be confident in my interpretations of them , paxter his christian concords explication , p. 69. ⸫ diceto , ann. 607. & 608. col . 437 , 23. i antiquit. britan . eccles. pag. 384 , 37. edit . london , 1573. k ger. dorobern . col . 1663 , 24. col . 1615 , 60 , 63. l epist. radulph . archiepisc . calixto 2. col . 1736. 1. m eadmer . pag. 25 , 40. n mat. paris , ann. 116● . pag. 107 , 45. pag. 111 , 24. vide epist. gilberti londonensis episc. apud hoveden . fol. 288 , 34. 38. ann. 1166. o eadmer . p. 28 , 23. a 25. hen. 8. cap. 21. b apud mat. paris epist. universitat . angli●e , anno 1245. p. 667. 38. c rot. parl. octav . purific . 25. ed. 3. n. 13. of which hereafter n. 15. d vide epist. w m● . 1. apud baron . to . 11. ann. 1079. & inter lanfranci epist ▪ 7. e epist. henrico 1. apud eadmer . pag. 113 , 27. f hist. lib. 4. p. 89 , 40 , 43. g notae in lanfranci epist . 7. p. 347. col . 2. d. h malmsbur . sol . 128. b. 25. i polychronic . lib. 5. cap. 24. see brompton col . 802 , 23. k col. 7●6 , 37. l lib. 4. p. 89 , 44. m florent . wigorn. ann. 855. pag. 300. & sim. dunelm . n de regibus lib 2. cap. 2. fol. 22. a. 27. o iorvalensis col . 802 , 27. p this appeares by the epistle of william the 1. to paschalis the 2. before cited , and so to henry the 1. q apud mat. paris p. 698 , 51. r cap. 3. n. 11. cap. 4. n. 2. s apud mat. paris anno 1164. p. 103 , 45. & hoveden anno 1165 , so . 284. b. 26. u hen. knighton col . 2615 , 41. x caxton . continuat . polychronic . ca● . 2. stow ann. 1365. y hen. knighton c●l . 2664 , 66 , & 2644 , 31. z in fasciculo ziz●niorum ms. in bibliotheca antistitis arm●chani , fol. 59 , b. col . 2. a rot. parl. 1 ric. 2. n. 84. b walsing . hist. anno 1408. p. 420 , ● . c 25. hen. 8. cap. 21. d hist. concil . trident. lib. 5. e fox acts monuments in edw. 2. f vide concil . spelm. p. 313. g florent . wigorn. ann. 1109. p. 482. & alii . h remigius circum ann. 1080. tr●nslulit sedem episcopalem de dorkecestra lincoln . & herebertus circa 1086. de thetfordia , norwi●ch . malmsbur . de pont. i cap. 3. n. 50. k vitae abbat . p. 140 , 27. hist , major . pag. 414 , 26. l ann. 1191. col . 663. 6. m mat. paris ann. 1226. pag. 328 , 13. n ordericus vitalis pag. 846. c. o mat. paris additament . ms. ubi supra , cap. 3. n. 66. p hoveden ann. 1183. fol. 354. b. 43. q de immunitate ecclesiae in sexto cap. 3. vid. knig●ton col . 2489 , 37. r gervas . dorobern . ann. 1166. col . 1399 ▪ 7. s newbrigensis lib. 3. cap. 21 , 22 , 23 , &c. hoved. ann. 1187. fol. 363. b. & sequentibus . ger. dorobern . c. 1522. 11. t mat. paris ann. 1201. pag. 206 , 54. ann. 1292 , pag. 20● . 12. u mat. paris ann. 1206. pag. 214 , 33. x mat. paris p. 224 , 25. y mat. paris pag. 361 , 2 , 49. pag. 362 , 9. z mat. paris ann. 1240. pag. 526 , 20. a pag. 534 , 8 , 39. b mat. paris ann. 1241. pag. 549 , 2● . c apud mat. paris p. 666 , 51. d apud mat. paris anno 1246 , p. 698 , 40 , 51 , &c. e ibid. pag. 701 , 56. pag. 707 , ●0 . pag. 708. f in lugubri querimoni● additament . mat. paris ms. de qua supra , cap. 3. n. 59 , 67. g mat. paris ann. 1246. pag. 707 , 2. ut si clericus ex tunc decederet intestatus , ejusdem bona in usus domini papae converterentur . ⸫ mat. paris p. 730 , 16. .˙.˙ ibid. ann. 1246. p. 715 , 16. h rot. parl. 50. ed. 3. n. 107. i rot. parl. 17. ed. 3. n. 59. k walsing . hist. p. 150 , 30. l hen. knighton . col . 25●3 , 50. m rot. parl. 20. ed. 3. n. 33. ● . 35 ▪ n n. 35. o w mus thorne col . 1926 , 27. p wasing . hist. p. 73 , 3. q vide mat. paris anno 1252. p. 849 , 12. r ibid. anno 12●5 . p. 917. 39. s chronicon de regibus francorum ad finem pauli aemilii , ann. 1326. & du tillet in chronico . t vide hist. del concil . trident. in 4 to , lib. 5. p. 408. u de beneficiis lib. 7. c. 1. in fine . x concil . constant . sess. 43. de decimis & aliis oneribus : concii . gen . romae , pag. 279. & pag. 297. y herbert . hist. hen. 8. pag. 57. p. 59 ▪ & ●ullae sive epistolae leonis de eadem re , quas vidi manuser . z 26. hen. 8. ●ap . 3. * minuta servitia were small paiments , such as had any expedition in the court of rome were lyable unto , as fees to certain officers or servants of the pope , called therefore familiares dui . papae : as of late , such as renewed leases of the archbishop of cant. did to his secretaries , and ●thers of ●is retinue . 1389. there was payed 4 of these to the ●ope , and one to the dependents on the cardina●ls . thorn col . 2194 , 31. the rest have no difficulty . a lib. 4. epist. 44. indict . 13. b rot. parl. octav. purif . 25. ed. 3. n. 13. c ●ot . parl. 50. ed , 3. n. 1●9 . d de schismate● inter vrban●m 6. &c. lib. 2. 〈…〉 . e platina in vita ponifucii ix . f de invent . rerum lib. 8. cap. 2. g tract , de annatis non solvend's , in fasciculo rerum expetend . & fugiend . fol. 18. 9. e● interopera ejus pag. 82. col . 2. h epist. 296. romae 22 decembr . 1601. i polychron . lib. 7. cap. 42. apud hen. knighton col . 2534 , 8. k col . 2565 , 47. l hist. anno 1316. p. 84 , 45. * de praebendis & dignitatibus cap. 11. extravagant . commun . m clemanges , platina , polidor . n mat. paris ann. 1245. pag. 658 , 49. pag. 667 , 36. o ibid. pag. 859 , 48. p rot. parl. octav. purif . 25. ed. 3. n. 13. tent . ann. 1351. q rot. ●arl . 50. ed. 3. n. 105. 10● r rot. ●arl . 51. ed. 3. n. 78 , 79. * a la foitz xx . mill. mares ; a la foitz xx . mill. lib. s rot. parl. 1. ric. 2. n. 66 , 6● . 68. * what each bishop payed to the see of rome at his entrance for first-fruits , vide godwin . catal. in fine unius cujusque episcopatus . t rot. parl. 5. hen. 4. n. 37. vide 10. ric. 2. n. 20. 13. ric. 2. n. 6. 7. hen. 4. n. 31. 11. hen. 4. n. 39. u rot. parl. 3. ric. 2 n. 37. & cap. 3. & crast. animarum . 5. r. 2. n. 90 , 91. x wm. thorne col . 2184 , & sequent . ⸫ col . 2187 , 62. ⸪ col . 2186 , 40. .˙.˙ cap. 3. n. 13 , 14. y 13. ric. 2. cap. 2. & 3. stat . 2. ⸫ in ric. 2. hist. lib. 20. pag. 417 , 32. ⸪ 16. ric. 2. cap. 5. .˙.˙ 1. & 2. p. & m. c. 8. see cook iust. 3. pag. 127. ˙.˙. catholick divine his answer to sr. ed. cook , cap. 12. n. 37. 49. pag. 305 , 311. z rot. parl. 13. ric. 2. n. 43. a 7 hen. 4. cap. 8. 3 hen. 5. cap. 4. ⸪ concordata inter martinum 5. & ecclesiam anglicanam in actis publicis archiepisc. & in bibliotheca cotton . manuser . b antiquitat . eccles . britann . in vita cranmeri pag. 381. 2. edit . 1572. hall 24. hen. 8. fol. cciii . a. herb. in hen. 8. p. 330. a de roman● pontif. lib. 4. cap. 22. §. 1. b sum eccles . lib. 1. cap. 93 , 96. e apud ailredum col . 361 , 16. bea●o petro cujus vicem episcopi gerunt . capitul . carol. & ludovic . lib. 5. cap. 163. d socrat. prolog . ad lib. 5. hist. e tom . 3. anno 312. n. 100. * euseb. de vita constantini lib. 4. cap. 24. f flor. wigorn . anno 974. p. 360. g regularis concordia &c. notis seldeni ad eadmer . pag. 146 , 16. & 155 , 6 , 15. & concil . spelm. pag. 437. cap. 7. pag. 438. cap. 8. vide leg . edwardi cap. 17. h concil . spelm. à pag. 444 , ad pag. 476. l cap. 1. m cap. 2 , 3 , 4. see novel . 146. n leg. edw. confes. cap. 17. pag. 142. o leg. canut . cap. 11. pag. 109. iorval . capite 31. col . 923. vide cap. 25. pag. 106. iorval . cap. 23. p leg. inae in praefat . pag. 1. apud iorval . col . 761 , 41. * ●apla saxon. q tom . 9. anno 740. n. 14. see hunt , fol. 194 , 30 , 42. r fubbert , carnotensis epist. 97. fol. 93. a. edit . paris . 1608. s leg. canut . cap. 26. pag. 106. apud iorval . cap. 24. col . 922 , 17. t sequor in reliquis iorvalensem . u jorval . cap. 2. col . 761. x iorval . leg . aluredi cap. 5. col . 830. y what ora was , see mr. sumners glossary . z iorval . cap. 23. col . 921. 57. a jorvalensis cap. 21. col . 921. 57. b apud iorval . cap. 11 co . 919 e iorval . cap. 9. col . 823. ⸫ lanfranc . epist. 32. d iorvalensis cap. 50. col . 826 , 60. e iorval . cap. 67 , 68 , 69 , 70 , 71 , 72 , col . 927. vide ibidem col . 920. cap. 17 , 18 , 19 , 20. thorn col . 2197 , 15. f de eccles . lib. 4. cap. 8. §. nota tertio . ⸫ florent . wigor . p. 559. * carol. & ludovic . cap. lib. 6. cap. cxi . g in concil . spelman . passim . h apud iorval . col . 845 , 36. i cap. 5. p. 64. iorval . pag. 872 , 13. cap. 10. k cap. 17. pag. 3. iorval . cap. 38. pag. 924. l concil . calcuith , apud spelman . cap. 3. pag. 293. m pud spelman . concil . p. 3●0 . cap. 9. n ead●erus apud gervasium dorobernensem , col . 1292 , 18. o apud gervas & sim. dunelm . five turgot . de du●elmensi ecclesia lib. 3. cap. 10 col . 35. 6. p see it in sr. ed. cook inst. 4. cap. 53. p. 259. q in antiquo manusur . r apud baron . tom . 2. anu . 1071. n. 9. t eadmer . p. 85 , 40. u apud ead●er . pag. 24 , ●8 . x apud i orvalensem , col . 845 , 36. y leg. hen. 1. cap. 7. p. 180. 30. leges instituuntur cum promulgantur , firmantur cum moribus utentium approbantur . dist. 4. cap. 3. z habetur haec bulla in splendido ms. reposito in aula stae . trinitatis cantabr . ante 200. annos exarato , & in alio ms. optime notae ante quadringentos annos scripto in scachario . fol. 49. b. a col. 1800. 46. b lib. 5. de exceptionibus cap. 15. §. 3. fol. 412. a. c concil . illebon . cap. 47. apud ordericum vitalem p. 552 , 554. d apud ger. dorobern . col . 1389 , 37. an● 1164. see rot. parl. at leicester , 2. hen. 5. pet . des coes. 5. e gervas . dorobern . col . 1389 , 42. hoveden , an. 1165. fol. 283 , a. ●2 . f n. 17. §. xvii . g w mu● . cregor . 7. inter lanfrance . ep . 7. p. 304. & apud baron . tom . 11. an. 1079. n. 25. h hoveden , fol. 343. a. 19. i leg. hen. 1. cap. 5 , 7. & p●ssim ibidem . k apud hoved fol. 292. b. 5. l eadmer . p. 6. 21. m mat paris an. 1241. pag. 555. 15. n epist. vniversu . angliae ibid. an. 1245. pag. 667. 38. ibidem . o claude fauchet en les libertes de l' esglise gallicane in 4 to . à paris 1612. avec priviledge , p. 234. & 1639. p. 179. p charles le faye ibid. pag. 287. in edit . 1639. p. 230. q du delict commun p. 528. edi●●onis 16 , 9. r 26. hen. 8. cap. 1. 1. eliz. cap. 1. t stat. 3. & 4. ed. 6. cap. 11. see before . 25. lien . 8. cap. 19. 27. hen. 8. cap. 15. 35. hen. 8. cap. 16. * councell . u cap 7. n. 12. x mat. paris anno 1247. p. 727 , 26. y preuves des libertes de l' esglise callicane , cap. 20 n. 33 , p. 529. z hist. hen. 8. p. 219. a see hall 6. hen. 8. b eadmer ▪ p. 6 , 26 , ride epist . hen. ●●ic●ley in vita ejus , edit . 1617. p. 77 , 78. c eadmer . ibid. & pag. 113 , 1. thorn , col . 2152 , 1. & 2194 , 18. & alibi . cook inst. 3. p. 127. d eadmer . p. 24. 5. 11. e stat. 25. hen. 8. cap. 19. f mat. paris anno 1237. p. 447 , 51. g vide seld. de synedriis part . 1. p. 373. h lyndwood de ●oro competenti , cap. 1. gloss. 1. i eadmer . p. 6 , 29. k flor. wigorn . anno 1127. p. 505. l gervas . dorobern . anno 1175. col . 1429 , 18. m eadmer . p. 6. 31. n m. paris additament . p. 200 num . 7. see articuli cleri 9. ed. 2. cap ▪ 7. o ibid. n. 10. p ibid. n. 12. q ibid. n. 13. r eadmer . p. 58 , 40. p. 113 , 1 p. 118 , 28. s eadmer . p. 115 , 23 , 31. t flor. wigorn . anno 1070. p. 536. hunt. fol. 219. a. 1. u eadmer . p. 95. flor. wigorn. anno 1109. x johannes hagulstad . col . 257 , 48. y vide cook instit. 2. p. 625. z rot. parl. 16. march 3. hen. 5. n. 11. anno 1414. io●n 23. ●ope . a mat. paris additament , p. 200. n. 6. b de cohabitatione clericorum & mulierum , cap. 1. ad verbum beneficiati , fol. 64. b. c considerationi di ●adre ●aolo venet. 1606. fol 31. a. vide fulgentio in difesa d'essi , p. 312. & sequent . d mat. paris additament . p. 200 , n 9. & in historia majori p. 716 , 7. vide selden . de synedriis part . 1. c. 10. p. 383. e mat. paris additament . p. 202. n. 30. * vilissimi ribaldi . ⸫ evesque d' exce●re chanceller . rot. parl. 20. ric. 2. n. 1. f rot. parl. at leicester 2. hen. 5. ● . 10. g hen. knighton col . 2708. 40. anno 1387. ⸪ r●● . parl. 2. hen. 4. n. 47. ⸫ cap. hoc , n. 6. h rot. parl. 2. h. 4. n. 48. i rot. parl. 50. ed. 3. n. 84. 1 r. 2. n. 108. k rot. parl. octav. purif . 25. ed. ● . n. 35. ⸫ rot. parl. octav. purif . 25. ed. 3. n ▪ 31. .˙.˙ rot. parl. at lecester 2. hen. 5. pet . des cōes . 5. vide rot. parl. 46. ed. 3. n. 36 , 37. n. 41 , 42. l rot. parl. 17. ric. 2. n. 43. m rot. parl. 7. h. 4. n. 114. n rot. parl. 11 hen. 4. n ▪ ●0 . o rot. parl. 3. hen. 6. n. ●37 , 38. vide 4. hen. 6. n. 31. p see cap. 3. n. 14 , 19. q numbers xxvii . 21. ⸫ concil . spelm p. 433. r hall 23. hen. 8. fol. 202. b. 24. hen. 8. fol. 205. a. herbert p. 329. 153 ½ . s stat. 32. h. 8. cap. 26. t fox acts and monuments , tom . 2. p. 6 , 8. col . 1. & pag. 659. col . 2. u statut. 2. & 3. ed. 6. cap. 1. preface to the book of ed. the 6. 1549. y mat. paris vi● . abba● . s ▪ albani , p. 101 , 17 , 19. p. 123 , 28. z agobardi opera , paris , 1605 p. 392. a harpsfield hist anglican . eccles. sect . xi . cap. 19 p. 251 , 48. b camden . annales eliz. c iourn . des cōes 23. eliz. march 3. & 7. & 27. eliz. februar . 25. * whose coin is yet extant , having on one side his picture , and an inscription shewing him to be king of france and naples , on the other the armes of france , and these words , perdam babylonis nomen . thuanus lib. 1. p. 11. c. † in archivis oxon. ad annum 1534. p. 127 , &c. a mat. paris anno 1252. p. 859 , 3. & anno 1257. p. 945 , 28. b rot. parl. 1. hen. 6. n. 43. c hen. knighton col . 2671 , 24. col . 2742 , 23. d walsing . hist. anno 1408. p. 420 , 1. e in fascie●lo zizaniorum ms. in bibliotheca archiepiscopi armachani . f circa maleriam excommunicationum resolutio , considerat . 11. to . 2. col . 349. a. ed. paris 1606. g n●var . cap. cum contingat de rescript . remed . 2. n. 30. to . 2. editionis colon. anno 1616. p. 59. col . 1. § 〈◊〉 ▪ h hoveden anno 1166 , fol. 287. b. 48. i ibid. fol. 288 ▪ ● . k apud hoveden fol. 292. b. 11. 49. 293. a. 33. l gerson de vita spirituall animae corol . 7. to . 3. col . 183. b. c. ⸫ cont. de potestate pontificis ad nicholaum teupolum . m sleidan ▪ lib. 9. prope finem . n staplet . de principiis fidei lib. 13. cap. 15. § dixeram . * hen the viii . o stat. 26. hen. 8. cap. 1. begun the 3. november and ended the 18. december 1533. p bulla pauli 3. in bullar●o dat . 17. ianuar. 1538. q cap. 3. n. 72. 〈…〉 ⸫ concil . spelm. p. 437 ▪ cap. 7 , 8. seld. notis ad ●●dmer . p. 175. ● ▪ 17. r rot. parl. sest . s. hillair 25. ed. 3. n. 60. petitions de cleargy . s flor. wigorn . anno 1070. t neubrigensis lib. 4. cap. 38. u hoveden . anno 1198. fol. 444. a 8. x walsingh . anno 1296. p. 29 , 24. y gervas . dorobern . ●el . 1554. 44. * stat. 1. 2. p. & mar. cap. 8. a see fox , vol. 3. p. 38. b literae aute catechismum directae omnibus ludimagistris , & iis qui scholas grammaticas aperiunt , dat . 20. maii anno regni 7. c cap. 3. n. 80. a hist. councel of trent ital. lib. 5. anno 1558. p. 399. edit . lond. 1619. & genevae p. 420. b ibid. paulo ante eodem libro . c his speech at the making known queen maries death to the commons , in camden , holinshead , grafton , & aliis d the defence of the catholicks against the book styled the execution of justice in england , pag. 51. e see spotswood's history of the church of scotland , p 381. f stat. 28. hen. the 8. cap. 10. g iourn . des c●es 1. eliz. h the admonition in injunctions 1 eliz. i 5 eliz. cap. 1. k art. 37. l stat. 2. & 3. ed. 6. cap. 1. m cap. de missa . relinetur missa apud nos , & summa reverentia celebratur . a iohan. calvin . epist. 87. * note , the printed book of statutes is , as if their meeting were the 4. november : which i conceive ●rroueous , as not at all agreeing with the iournall . troubles at frankford p. xxii . 1 corinth . ix . 22. epist. 200. u the first book of ed. 6. sol . 130. b. o 1 cor. xi . 〈◊〉 , 25 ● a 1. 2. p. m. cap. 6. b 2. hen. 4. cap. 15. repealed . 25. h. 8. cap. 14. c de haereticis cap. 63. d to. 4. bibliothec . patrum . cap. 54. 82. e de scriptoribus . ⸫ concil . gen. rom. to . 1. p. 88. cap. 6. f acts xv . g euseb. lib. 6. cap. λζ ' . al. 30. h euseb. lib. 7. cap. κζ ' . &c. ad cap. λ ' . al. cap. 22 , 23 , 24. i euseb. lib. 10. cap. 7. socrat. prooem . lib. 5. vide epist. theodosii cyrillo apud baron . to . 5. anno 430. n. 64. k codex theodos . lib. 16. de haereticisleg . 1. vide euseb. de vita constantini cap. 61 , 62. lib. 3. l cod. theod. lib. 16. de fide catholica leg . 2. m ibid. de haeretic . leg . 6. n ibid. de fide catholica leg . 3. & ● 2. ⸫ ibid. leg . 2 , 3. annis 380 , 381. & ibid. de his qui religione contendunt , leg . 6. o novel . constii . 109. in praesat . p cod. theodos . lib. 16. de his qui religione contendunt , leg . 6. 3. ⸫ aeneae silvii epist. 301. in edit . lugduni 1505. ● bellarmino epist . 288. ⸬ ambros. oratio de obitu fra●ris . ',' hieron . ad damasum epist . ⁙ gregor . lib. 10. epist. 31. q cod. theodos . lib. 16. de fide catholica leg . 2. r de romano pontif. lib. 4. cap. 5. §. quod autem . s recognit . pag. 19. edit . 1608. ingolstat . t regul . 13. u hier. in ierem. 19. x 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . socrates lib. 6. cap. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 al. 12. y cod. theodos . lib. 16. leg . 28. de haeret. z august . in psa● . 57. to . 8. a ibid. leg . 38. vide august . epist. 68. & to . 7. contra lit . petil. cap. 83. b cod. theodos . de haeret. lib. 16. leg . 37 , 38 , 39 , 40 ▪ 52 , 54 , 65. * i cannot but with the learned wesembechius ( in cod. lib. 1. tit. 5. de haereticis &c. ) understand those words , manichaeos de civitatibus pellendis & ultimo supplicio tradendis , not to be meant of taking away their lives ; though i am not ignorant celsus the lawyer so interprets ul imum supplicium ff . de poenis leg . 21. for to what use were the banishing them the city , if they were to be instantly executed ? and that law being taken out of cod. theodos. leg . 65. de haeret. where those words are altogether omitted , i conceive iustinian intended by them no other but those capitales poenae that were morti proximae , as metalli coercitio , in insulam deportatio , &c. ff . de poenis leg . 28. the like may serve for answer to those other rescripis in cod. theodos. de haeret. leg . 9. 36. it is manifest by many places of s. augustine , as to . 7. contra lit . petiliani , lib. 2. cap. 86. that there was no law during his time against the life of an heretick ; and bellarmine himself confesseth as much , de laicis cap. 21. § augustinus . but however the matter is not great , being onely against some particular hereticks , whose deportments may be thought to have been seditious as well as their conscience erroneous c de haeret. leg . 8. cod. iustin. d epist. 127. & retract . lib. 2. cap. 5. e prosper in chronico an. 392. f to. 4. anno 386. n. 23. vide iohan. royas singular . 107. n. 6. directorium inquisitor . 2. part . cap. 27. p. 131. col . 1. par . 3. quaest . 102. p. 702. col . 2. edit . romae 1585. vide formulas &c. ad finem praxis judiciariae inquisit . p. 524. & p. 526. g direct . part . 3. in quaest . 36. franc. pegn . comment . 85. p. 608. col . 2. iohan a royas singular . 107. n. 2. vide part . 2. n. 450. * statute at leicester 2. h 5. cap. 7. here i cannot but observe , possidonius in the life of st. augustine cap. 18. no●ing the manner used then in the catholick church in condemnation of hereticks , conformable to what is here specifyed , adds , et hoc tale de illis ecclesiae dei catholicae prolatum . judicium etiam piissimus imperator honorius audiens ac sequens , s●● it cos legibus damnatos , inter haereticos haberi debere constituit . against which some had added in : the margin , caesar pronuntiat haereticos : but that shewing too apparent , the custome of those times might perhaps ( when the place it self was not ) be regarded . the inquisitors therefore of spain in their index at madrid 1612. p. 37. col . 1. appoint i● to be blotted out . but this edict against the pelagians , of whom that father speaks , is not now found either in the codex of theodos. or iustinian . but see baronius●om ●om . 5. anno 419. n. 57 , 58. h baron . to . 10. anno 1000. n. 4. i ibid. to . 11. anno 1017. n. 4. k cod. theod. de haeret. leg . 12 , 21 , 34 , 36. &c. l hoved. fol. 334. a. 42. & apud neubrigens . lib. 2. cap. 15. canon . 6. m de haereticis cap. 8. ⸬ roger hoveden , anno 1182. fol. 352. b. 29. in fine anni . n de scriptor . o bernard . in cant. serm . 6● . to . 1. col . 987. k. edit . 1586. p paramo de origine inquisit . lib. 2. tit. 1. cap. 1. n. 7. p. 90. simanca cathol . institut . tit. 25. n. 4. p. 182. romae 1575. q paramo de origine inquisit . r franciscus pegna , ludovicus à paramo , famianus strada de bello belgico lib. 2. p. 41. in foi . romae 1640. s ossat . epist. 59. romae 5. iun. 1596. t in director . part . 3. comment . 32. p. 495. col . 1. b. u de origine inquisit . lib. 2. tit. 1. cap. 1. n. 13. cap. 2. n. 3. p. 96. col . ● . x cap. 6 , 7 , 8. y cap. 8. n. 36. z urspergenlis p. 321. obiit apud perusium 1216. 16. calend. august . a edit . romae 1579. p. 149. concilio absoluto bernardus presbyter cardinal . ipsum legationis officiumobtinuit , qui praedecessorum exemplo b. dominicum inquisitorem similiter instituit . b alphonsus . ciaconius de cardinalibus , romae 1630. p. 650. col . 1. & pag. 663. ol . 1. c vide bull. innocent . 4. da● . 11. kalend. iunii pontific . anno 11. 1254. in . bullario a francisco pegna edit . ad calcem directorii , p. 16. & alexandri 4. ibid. p. ●4 . ●●lementis 4●i . ibid. p. 57. &c. d in sexto de haereticis cap. 18. glossa ad leges quasdam . ⸫ n. 18. e paramo de potestate delegatae lib. 3. quaest. 2. n. 109. p. 536. col . 1. f ibid. lib. 2. cap. 2. n. 11. p. 133. col . 1. g instit. cathol . tit. 25. n. 5. h vide additiones ad lambertum schasnaburgensem anno 1232. tritem . chronic. hirsaug . anno 1214. p. 223. & anno 1233. p. 235. mat. paris anno 1236. p. 429. anno 1238. p. 482. munsteri cosmograph . p. 477. i in clement . de haereticis , cap. 1. k vide giovanni villani lib. 12. cap. 57. l paramo de origine inquisit . lib. 2. tit. 2. cap. 2. n. 13. p. 133. & cap. 3. n. 5. p. 136. m francis. pegna in director . part . 3. com . 32. p. 49● . col . 1. n cathol . instit . tit. 34. n. 5. see pegna ubi supra , o vide paramo de origine inquisit . lib. 2. tit. 2. cap. 4. per totum : & simanca ubi supra , tit. 34. n. 6 , 7. p instruct. hispal . cap. 28. ut citatur à paramo p. 146. col . 2. n. 4. q adriani hist. lib. 19. p. 1341. & ibid. lib. 18. p. 1●73 . ●●escas hist. pont. madriti 1606. lib. 6. in pio 4. fol. 342. a. col . 2. r cathol . instit . tit. 34. n. 5. s hist. lib. 3. p. 81. anno 1547. t apud eymericum director . inquisit . par . 2. p. 145. u bulla ●●ii 4. cui initium cum sicut . à francisco pegna post directorinm edita p. 162. x constanter asserere a●● deo , q●od nec ipsis peritis tot s process●s integraliter c●m nominib●s & circ●mstantiis publicandus est , &c. additiones ad cap. 14. zanchini p. 104. romae 1579. edit . y bulla pii 5ti , cui initium inter multiplices curas . dat . romae 21. december . 1566. ubi supra , p. 169. z bulla pii 5ti , cui initium si de protegendis , dat . romae 1. april . 1569. ibid. p. 174. a adriani lib. 17. p. 1258. c. hist. concil . di trent . lib. 8. p. 776. ⸬ paramo de origine inquisit . lib. 2. cap. 11. n. 17. p. 203. b risposta ad fol. 22. apolog . del padre paolo p. 85. c cod. theod. de haeret. leg . 21. d concil . afric . cap. 60. & baron . to . 5. anno 404. 11. 123. e ff de poenis leg . 20. f ibid. & leg . 26 , g cod. theod. de haereticis leg . 40. lata anno 407. in cod. iust. tit . eodem leg . 4. 19. lata anno 530. & in authenticis novel . 115. cap. 3. §. 14. lata anno 541. &c. h vide gervas . dorobern . col . 1363 , 1364 , 1366. 1. 1666. 20. willielmus thorn col . 1807. 52. &c i thorn , col . 180● , 63. k thorn , 1809 , 55. l de poenis , cap. 3. m apud rogerum hoveden fol. 334 b. 3. & concil . general . romae cap. 3. p. 33. col . 2. n de haereticis cap 8. o hist. minor . anno 1217. p de haeret. cap. 10 & regist. innocent . 3. lib. 3. epist. 1. q cod. theod . de sicariis leg . 3. & cod. just. ad legem iuliam majestatis leg . 5. §. filii . r alphonsus à castro de just ● haereticorum punitione , lib. 2. cap. 11. simancas instit . cathol . tit. 9. n. 5. 6. iohan. royas singular . 66. n. 5 , 6. vide st. august . lib. 6. quaestion . 8. super ios. 10. 4. s 2 kings xiv , 6. 2 chron. xxv , 6. t de haeret. cap. 9. u chronicon aquicinctinū à miraeo 1608. editum ad calcem sigeberti gemblacensis & aliorum , p. 236. anno 1183. x concil . lat. cap. 3. & de haeretic . cap. 13. y eduntur à francisco pegna , ad finem directorii . z de episcopali audientia , cap. statuimus , & de haeret. manichaeis , cap. gazaros &c. a apud paramum de origine inquisit . lib. 2. tit . 2. cap. 11. n. 8. p. 198. b bul. innoc. 4. dat . idibus maii 9. pontif . cui initium ad extirpanda &c. in bullario . et à francisco pegna ad finem directorii , p. 11. §. teneantur . c ibid. p. 37. §. teneatur . dat . anagniae 2. kalend. decem. 1259. d ibid. p. 65. §. teneatur . bulla clem. 4. dat . perusti 3. non. novemb. 1. po●tificat . e annal. ecclesiast . renaldi to 14. anno 1297. n. 41. f de haereticis in sento cap. 19. vide cap. 17 , 18. g extrav . commun . cap. 1. h in clem. de haereticis cap. 2. i giovanni villani lib. 12. cap. 57. k arrest de la court de parliament a paris 27. iun. 1542. habetur in libro des preuves des libertes del ' esglise gallicane cap. 38. n. 9. p. 1082. l august . epist . 68. m august , contra literas petiliani don●t , lib. 2. cap. 83. n 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 socrates de chrysostomo lib. 6. cap. κα ' , lat . 19. o de h●reticis cap. 9. & tit . eodem cap. 4. in sexto . simanca instit. cathol . tit. 57. n. 10. p mat. xvlii , 22. q aeneas sylvius histor . bohemica cap. 35. r cognitio haeresis & ipsius punitio pertinet ad episcopos . lyndwood de h●reticis cap. item quia , verbo ordinarii . s cathol . instit. tit. 57. t neubrigensis lib. 2. cap. 13. u n. 7. x de script . brit. cent. 3. cap. 65. in appendice . ⸬ apparat. elizab. y lib. 3. de corona cap. 9. n. 2. fol. 124. a. britton cap. 9. z lib. 1. cap. 29. in fine , p. 46. a hist. angl. lib. 19. p. 382 , 39. b rot. parl. 2. hen. 4. n. 29. c ypodigma neustriae anno 1401. p. 158 , 9 d 2. hen. 4. cap. 15. e rot. parl. 2. hen. 4. n. 116. * i read it detrectari , not , a● the print , detractari . f cap. 9. fol. 16. b. g 5. ric. 2. cap. 5. stat . 2. h 5. ric. 2. cap. 1. i rot. parl. lendemain iehan port latin . 5. ric. 2. n. 13. ⸫ rot. parl. octaves st. michel . 6. ric. 2. n. 52 , k cook inst. 3. p. 41. l 1 & 2. p. & m. cap. 6. m 2 hen. 4. cap. 15. n 25 hen. 8. cap. 14. o cook instit. 3. cap. 5. p. 42. ⸪ rot. parl. 11. hen. 4. n. 29. ⸫ walsing . anno 1410. p. 422. p rot. parl. 2. hen. 4. n. 29. q 1 & 2. p. & m. cap. 6. r cook inst. 3. cap. 5. p. 39. s stat. 2. hen. 5. cap. 7. t stat. 1. eliz. cap. 1. u novel , 131. cap. 1. & in cod. de summa trinitate & side catholica leg . 9. x concil . gen . romae , to . 2. p. 524 , col . 1. e. y gregor . lib. 1. epist. 24. z gregor . lib. 3. epist. 37. ⸫ lib. 5. ●ndict . 14. epist. 2. a beda lib. 4. cap. 17. concil . calcuth . cap. 1. apud spelm. p. 293. b canones aelsrici ad wulfinum apud spelman . concil . can. 33. p. 581. vide egberti archiepise . de sacerdotali jurecap . 4. ibid. p. 278. c p. 24 , 7. d anno 1044. p. 405. e anno eod . fol. 180 , 23. f hunt. fol. 226. b. 3. g ger. dor. col . 1369 , 62. h hoved. anno 1044. fol. 252 , a. 35. anno 1200. fol. 458 , b. 18. i hist. minori & majori , p. 131. 19. k diceto col . 585 , 63. l to. 1. concil . con. carth. 3. cap. 7. concil . 4. in prooem . m ibid. honor. augusto & ●umorido c●ss . n tom. 2. concil . crab. c. 20. o ibid. in proaemio . p director . par . 2. quaest . 5. 6. in sine p. q de vit . pont. in anselmo . fol. 129 , b. 30. r de poenis , cap. ad haec , verbo minime admittantur . s hoveden fol. 332. a. 55. t cap. 3. n. 50 , 51. u vide seld. ad eadmer . p. 214. ex . archivis potestatem commissam ambasciatoribus ad interessend . concilio basisiliensi . x 1608 & 1612. rom. ⸫ gualterus hemingford gisburnensis . y sic mat. paris anno 1215. p. 272 , 26. lege tamen capitula lxx . z p. 151 , 19. edit . lond. a p. 158 , 47. * p. 151 , 23. b mat. paris . hist. minor . ms. p. 172. & fol. 86. sive 89. col . 2. anno 1216. vide abbatum vitas pag. 117 , 39 , 43. * see the praeface to mat. west . pag. 5. c lyndwood , de summa trinitate & fide catholic â , cap. altissimus . d ibid. de poeuitentiis & remissionibus . e de custodia eucharist . cap. 2. f mat. paris hist. minor . anno 1216. § barones , p. 172. col . 2. ⸫ which councell of lateran this was , is uncertain , whether that under innocentius 2. or this by innocentius 3. but most likely that under innocent 3. at which himself was present . * binius reads , & aliis capitulis , thereby adding strength to every chapter of that councell : when certain the reading should be , according to ancient copies , in praestatione decimarum & aliis causis , referring onely to what past there touching tythes , and the payment of them by the cistertiam order , for land acquired after that time , which severall acts of parl. confirmed afterwards . as for the other constitutions there propounded , he after gives the rule with what caution they were to be expounded and recited , as they should be held expedient , and not otherwise . g preuves des libertes de l' esglise de france p. 325. h ordericus vitalis lib. 13. p. 919. b. i regist. islep . fol. 166. b. k apud gratian . caus . 27. q. 1. cap. 40. l carol. & lud. capit. lib. 7. cap. 323. 2 bern. de consideratione ed eugenium , lib. 3. cap. 2. l concil . gen . romae , 1608 , 1612. m acts the xy . n acts xvi , 4. o hieron . adversus luciferianos to . 2. fol. 52. a. paris 1534. p con. 6. carthag . cap. 9. q epist. ad aphto ; interprete petro nannio . paris 1572. col . 537. c. r concil . gen . p. 64. c. s epist. ad aegyp . ios &c. col . 424. a. b. t tom. 5. ann● 419. ● . 59. u concil . antioth . to . 1. concil . in pro●●in . x concil . tolet . 3. §. consuemur . to● . concil . 2. * baron to . 8. anno 685. n. 25. y ordericus vitali● lib. 9. p. 721. ● . z vide eu●eb . ●ediolanens . post epist. 52. leon●s . a gregor , lib. 6. epist. 31. & lib. 7. epist. 47. indict . 2. b general . concil rom● , tom . 3. p. 684 , 685. in margine . c ●ontra maximinum arrianorum epist. lib. 3. cap. 14. to . 6. vide etiam de unitate eccles . cap. 16. to . 7. c de synodis advers 〈◊〉 arrianos prope finein . p. 243. d socrat. lib. 1. cap. 6. theodor. lib. 1. cap. 10. e cod. theodos . de fide cathol . leg . 3. & de haeret. leg . 6. f n. 31. * to. 8. in psal. 57. g bellarm. de concil . lib. 1. cap. 15. §. at catholicorum . h bochellius 〈◊〉 operis ratio . i see his letter to cromwell at the end of his works , and the originall in sr thom. cottons library . k concil . florent . sess. 25. concil . gen . romae . tom . 4. p. 584. ibid. concil . later . sub iulio 2. & leone 10. sess. 11. p. 175. col . 2. l bellar. de concil . lib. 2. cap. 17. §. 〈…〉 . m 1 eliz. cap. 1. a canones dati sub eadgaro & legibus ejus annexi . p. 67. leg. canut . cap. 22. p. 105. see before cap. 4. n. 6. §. iij. b camden . annal. anno 1559. c tortura tor●i , p. 142. d in camdeni annal. anno 1560. e praesut . lib. 7. relat . f parallel . torti & tortoris , p. 241. g servi fidelis subdito in●ide li responsio , apud iohannem dayum 1573. h p. 121. i ibid. p. 70. 71. the book is not printed with pages , but they are added with a pen. * sancti salvatoris camden anno 1560. calls him . who in the year 1562. seems to have been employed by the said pope into france . hist. concil . trid. lib. 6. p. 501. and of whom mention is made in the life of cardinall poole . i hist. concil . trident. ann● 1560. p. 446. k ib. p. 522. p. 528. l art. 6. m art. 22 ▪ n apud ordericum vitalem anno 1095. p. 720. a. o apud baron . to . 12. anno 1118. n. 2. in nonnullis in appendice . p statu●a gilbertinorum ms. de canonicis cap. 33. vide adversaria doctoris watsii ad mat. paris p. 9. lin . 6. q de summa trinita●e & fide catholica , cap. altissimus , verbo minoribus ●cclesiis . r antiquit. britan. p. 98 , 10. in lanfran●i vita . s hunt. fol. 217 , b. 26. & a. 10. t eadmer , p. 94 , 48. u eadmer . p. 105 , 27. * hunt. fol. 220 , a. 26. saxon. chron. petroburg . ms. y de cohabitatione ●leric , & mulierum , & de clericis conjugatis . ⸫ constit. otho●is cap. innotuit . z col. 2584 , 7. clericus apud leicestri●m . ⸪ quaere whither this were not the priest of the town that was thus inhabiting there . a de locato & conducto , cap. vendentes , verbo si quis clericus .. b lynd. de clericis conjugalis , cap. 1. vide monasticum anglicanum , p. 899. & p. ●00 . c greg ▪ lib. 7. epist. 109. & lib. 9. epist. 9● . d reply to harding ▪ art. 14. in principi● . e to. ● . anno 714. ● . 2. f simeon d●nelm . col . 111 , 50. hoyeden fol. 232. b. 3. mat. west . anno 793. p. 283. g anno 788. at baron . anno 787. tom . 9. ● . 1● . 38. h concil . gen . rom. synod . 7. p. 661 , lin . ult . m ingulph . fol. 514. a. 17. * lyndwood de haeret. cap. nullus quoque . n seculo 8. cap. 5. p. 126. 9. o i● bibliotheca cotton . p to. 10. anno 963. 2 , 3. anno 968 , 10. q richard smith archiepisc . chalcedon . flores ▪ hist. anglic. lib. 2. cap. 7. p. 134. r de divinis officiis , die pa●rasce● . s concil . spelm. cap. 2. p. 328. t institutiones mss. beati gilber●i & successorum ejus per capitula generalia institutae ; de exordio , ordinatione , institutione ordinis canonicorum , sanctimonialium , fratrum & sororum laicarum ordinis de sempringham . de ●anonicis cap. 15. § sculp●urae . u de fratribus cap. 13. * sic mss. sed lege gratis data , as it is in other places ( as you will see here after ) repeated . * wardon or wardun was a monastery of the cist●rtian order in bedfordshire . x quaere whether this were that otho was after cardinall , viz. in september , 1227. y lib. 9. epist. 9. indict . 4. * gen●rali e●●sdem ordinis de semplingham scrutatore . * gilber●us . * concil . nicen . 2. z lyndwood de ecclesiis ●dificandis cap. ut parochiani , verbo imaginis . a iohan. sarisb , epist. 172. p. 281. 285. waldensis tom . 1. lib. 2. art. 2. cap. 23. n. 2. ●ol . 203. a. col . 2. edit . venet. 1571. b prae●at . in proverb . salomonis to . 3. sol . 9. c. c s. gregor . moral . lib. 19. cap. 17. d art. 6. e contra fa●●slum manichaeum lib. 20. cap. 21. to . 6. f lib. 2. p. 48 , ● . g in canon . missae lect . 3. d. ⸫ august , de vera religione cap. 55. to . 1. h errores graecorum in fasciculo zizaniorum mss. per thomam waldens . fol. 156. b. col . 1. in bibliotheca archiepisc. armach . i mat. paris hist. minor . ms. ann. 1237. & 1238. vide hist. major . anno 1237 , p. 457 , 16. p. 465 , 22. k mat. paris . hist. major . p. 892 , 28. l art. 22. m art. 28. n vide bellarmin . de euchar . lib. 3. cap. 23. §. secundo dicit . o liber cath●licorum sermonum per annu●● recitandus . p. 355. p flor. hist. eccles. &c. lib. 1. cap. 24. p. 91. q ab hac & aliis pestibus haereticis immunis semper exstitit anglia , — ubi hanc insulam expulsi● britonibus natio possedit anglorum , ut non jam pritannia sed anglia diceretur , nullius unquam ex ca pestis haereticae virus cbullivit : sed nec in eum aliunde usque ad tempora regis henrici secundi — introivit . newbrigensis lib. 2. cap. 13. vide pitseum de scrip . anno 1159. p. 220. r editionis iohannis dayi● in octavo , ● s p. 90. vide malms . de pont . lib. 1. in vita odonis fol. 114 , b. 36. t de unitate eccles. cap. 16. tom . 7. u vide chamier . de sacramentis lib. 10. cap. 1. 2. x i. r. his spectacles to sr humfrey lynde , p. 135. §. 4. y p. 143. cap. 9. §. 10. z n. 23. ⸪ index cerrorum auctorum . romae . a tom. 2. p. 450. b p. 462. c malon his reply to the archbishop of armach , p. 320. d in bibliotheca publica cant. e chap. 7. n. 37. f in fasciculo zizaniorum mss. per thom. waldens . & hen. knighton , qui tunc vixit scripsitque , col . 2648 , 8. & 2654 , 44. g knight , col . 2649 , 31. h col. 2650 , 49. i col. 2654. k 2652 , 67. l col. 2653. m vide bellar. de eucharistia lib. 4. cap. 24. §. ult . n noluit arch. plenarie procedere . o imposterum , de caetero teneat . p tandem ●inaliter . q a sparing discourse pag. 13. writ by a secular priest against the iesuites anno 1601. ⸫ in confess . contra wickliff . in bibliotheca archiepisc . armach . mss. r the book of canons of the same synod printed by john day 1571. s bulla pii 5ti march 28. 1569. t harding his confutation of the apol. part 6. * bellarm. de justif . lib. 3. cap. 8. §. prima ratio . & ibid. lib. 1. cap. 10. §. prima ratio . u contraliteras l'etiliani lib. 2. cap. 85. tom . 7. a fortresse of faith , at the end of bedas hist. fol. 47. b. confirmation and restauration the necessary means of reformation, and reconciliation; for the healing of the corruptions and divisions of the churches: submissively, but earnestly tendered to the consideration of the soveraigne powers, magistrates, ministers, and people, that they may awake, and be up and doing in the execution of so much, as appeareth to be necessary as they are true to christ, his church and gospel, and to their own and others souls, and to the peace and wellfare of the nations; and as they will answer the neglect to christ, at their peril. / by richard baxter, an unworthy minister of christ, that longeth to see the healing of the churches. baxter, richard, 1615-1691. 1658 approx. 536 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 206 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2008-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a76157 wing b1232 thomason e2111_1 estc r209487 99868363 99868363 120705 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a76157) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 120705) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 241:e2111[1]) confirmation and restauration the necessary means of reformation, and reconciliation; for the healing of the corruptions and divisions of the churches: submissively, but earnestly tendered to the consideration of the soveraigne powers, magistrates, ministers, and people, that they may awake, and be up and doing in the execution of so much, as appeareth to be necessary as they are true to christ, his church and gospel, and to their own and others souls, and to the peace and wellfare of the nations; and as they will answer the neglect to christ, at their peril. / by richard baxter, an unworthy minister of christ, that longeth to see the healing of the churches. baxter, richard, 1615-1691. [30], 316, [68] p. printed by a.m. for nevil simmons book-seller in kederminster, and are to be sold by joseph cranford, at the kings-head in pauls church-yard, london : 1658. the first leaf is blank. running title reads: confirmation & restauration the necessary means of reformation and reconciliation. leaves x7-2b6 contain the postscript. with a final errata leaf; the last leaf is blank. annotation on thomason copy: "sept:". reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets 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proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng reformation -england -early works to 1800. 2007-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-04 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-06 robyn anspach sampled and proofread 2007-06 robyn anspach text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion confirmation and restauration , the necessary means of reformation , and reconciliation ; for the healing of the corruptions and divisions of the churches : submissively , but earnestly tendered to the consideration of the soveraigne powers , magistrates , ministers , and people , that they may awake , and be up and doing in the execution of so much , as appeareth to be necessary as they are true to christ , his church and gospel , and to their own and others souls , and to the peace and wellfare of the nations ; and as they will answer the neglect to christ , at their peril . by richard baxter , an unworthy minister of christ , that longeth to see the healing of the churches . isa . 44. 3 , 4 , 5. for i will pour water on him that is thirsty , and floods upon the dry ground : i will pour my spirit on thy seed , and my blessing upon thine offspring , and they shall spring as among the grass , as willows by the water-courses . one shall say , i am the lords , and another shall call himself by the name of jacob ; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the lord , and surname himself by the name of israel . london , printed by a. m. for nevil simmons bookseller in kederminster , and are to be sold by joseph granford , at the kings-head in pauls church-yard , 1658. to the reader . christian reader ; having in divers writings , moved for the restitution of a solemn transition , of all that pass from an infant-state of church-membership , into the number of the adult , and are admitted to their priviledges , and the associated ministers of this county , having made it an article of their agreement , at last came forth an excellent exercitation on confirmation , written by mr. jonathan hanmer , very learnedly and piously , endeavouring the restoration of this practice . being very glad of so good a work , upon an invitation , i prefixed an epistle before it ; which hath occasioned this following disputation . for when the book was read , the designe was generally approved , ( as farre as i can learne ) and very acceptable to good men of all parties . but many of them called to me , to try whether some more scripture proofes might not be brought for it , that the preceptive , as well as the mediate necessity might appeare . at the desire of some reverend godly brethren , i hastily drew up this which is here offered you ; 1. partly to satisfie them in the point of scripture evidence ; 2. but principally to satisfie my own earnest desires , after the reformation , and healing of the churches , to which i do very confidently apprehend , this excellent work to have a singular tendencie . here is a medicine so effectual to heale our breaches , and set our disordered societies in joynt , ( being owned in whole by the episcopall , presbyterian , congregational , and erastian , and in half , by the anabaptists ) that nothing but our own self-conceitedness ; perversness , lazyness , or wilfull enmity to the peace of the churches , is able to deprive us of a blessed success . but alas , our minds are the subjects of the disease ; and are so alienated , exulcerated , and so selfishly partial and uncharitable , that when the plaster is offered us , and peace brought to our doors , i must needs expect that many should pievishly cast it away , and others betray it , by a lazy commendation , and so disable the few that would be faithfull , practical , and industrious , from that general success , which is so necessary and desirable . as for them that lay all our peace on episcopacy , and liturgie , i intend if god will , to send them after this , some healing motions on those subjects also . and if they have no better success , than presently to satisfy my own conscience , in the faithfull performance of so great a duty , and to awaken the desires , endeavours and praiers of the more moderate and impartial , i shall not think my labour lost . pray for the peace of jerusalem ; they shall prosper that love it . let 's seeke it of god , as well as men ; which is the daily , though too defective practise , of the most unworthy servant of the king of peace , r. baxter . april 7. 1658. if magistrates or others , who are obliged to promote the worke , which is here commended to them , do want leisure , or patience to read the whole , i desire them to peruse these following contents , and those parts of the work , in which they are most unsatisfied . the contents . question . whether those that were baptized in infancy , should be admitted to the priviledges proper to adult church-members , without confirmation , or restauration , by an approved profession of personal faith and repentance ? neg. a general rule to guide reformers . prop. i. it is supposed , that the infants of believers should be admitted by baptism into the church , and so be partakers of infant-priviledges . a breviate of reasons for this . prop. ii. there are many priviledges belonging to the adult-members of the church , which infant-members are not capable of . prop. iii. the continuation of priviledges received in infancy , is part of the priviledges of the adult : or the restoration of them , if they be lost . prop. iv. the title-condition of infant church-membership , and priviledges is not the same with the title-condition of the church-membership and priviledges of the adult ; so that if this new condition be not performed , when men come to age , their former title ceaseth , and there is no other , that ariseth in its stead : proved . prop. v. as a personal faith is the condition , before god , of title to the priviledges of the adult ; so the profession of this faith , is the condition of his title before the church , and without this profession , he is not to be taken as an adult-member , nor admitted to the priviledges of such . proved , and vindicated from their objections , that plead against the necessity of an express profession : with some application urging to the practice . prop. vi. it is not every kind of profession that is the condition , or necessary qualification of those , that are to be admitted to the priviledges of adult-amembers , but such a profession , as god hath made necessary by his express word , and by the nature of the object , and the uses and ends , to which he doth require it . it must be a profession of true christianity in all the essentials . what are the essentials , as to objects and acts : it must be a credible profession . 1. it must seeme to be understanding . 2. and serious . 3. and voluntary , upon deliberation . 4. not nullified by a contradiction in word or deed . 5. it must be practice first , that must make words credible , when the person by perfidiousness hath forfeited his credit . prop. vii . the profession of those that expect the church-state and priviledges of the adult , is to be tryed , judged and approved , by the pastours of the church , to whose office it is that it belongeth . 1. an untryed profession must not serve : proved . 2. pastours by office are the tryers and judges , of the prosession of such , as to these ends : proved by 14 undenyable arguments ; and objections answered . consent of the ancients . prop. viii . though it belong to the pastours office to judge of the profession of such expectants , yet are they bound up by the laws of christ what profession to accept , and what to refuse : and if by breaking these laws , they shall dangerously or grosly wrong the church , it belongeth to the magistrate to correct them , and to the people to admonish them , and disown their sin ; yea and in desperate cases to disown them . the positive title-condition to be produced , is the profession of true christianity . the minister that refuseth this profession , must prove it not credible . of tolerable ignorance . prop. ix . it is evident that magistrates , ministers and people , have each a power of judging : but different , as they have different works . how far ministers are judges . proved by ten reasons , against the popular claim , &c. how far the people must judge : how far the magistrate must judge ministers for these matters , and ministers obey them ? prop. x. to this ministerial approbation of the profession and qualifications of the expectant , there is to be adjoyned a ministerial investiture or delivery of the benefit expected . how many sacraments there are . 1. more than seaven in the largest sense . 2. five in a large sense ( not intollerable . ) 3. two only in the strictest sense , as we define them . prop. xi . the solemn ministerial investiture of professours into the right of the church-priviledges of the adult , is either 1. of the unbaptized , who are now first entred . 2. or of the baptized in infancy , that never proved ungodly , nor violated that first covenant . 3. or of those baptized ( whether in infancy or at age ) that have since proved wicked and broke the covenant . the first of these investitures is to be by baptism ; the second by confirmation , and the third by absolution . so that the solemn investiture that now i am pleading for , is by confirmation to one sort , ( that never proved ungodly since their baptism ) and by absolution to the other sort ( that broke their covenant ) which yet hath a certain confirmation in , or with it . prop. xii . this solemn investiture on personal profession , being thus proved the ordinance of god , for the solemn renewing the covenant of grace , between god and the adult-covenanter , it must needs follow that it is a corroborating ordinance , and that corroborating grace is to be expepected in it from god , by all that come to it in sincerity of heart : and so it hath the name of confirmation upon that account also . prop. xiii . ministerial imposition of hands , in confirmation and the foredescribed sort of absolution , is a lawfull and convenient action , or ceremony , and ordinarily to be used , as it hath been of old by the universal church . but yet it is not of such necessity , but that we must dispence in this ceremony with scrupulous consciences , that cannot be satisfied to submit to it : imposition of hands is allowed in scripture to be used generally by spiritual superiours , to signifie their desire , that the blessing , guift or power , may be conferred on the inferiour , for which they have a call to mediate . proved . particllarly , 1. we find in scripture a blessing of church-members , with laying on of hands . 2. and that the holy ghost is in a special manner promised to believers , over and above that measure of the spirit , which caused them to believe . 3. and that praier , with laying on of hands , was the outward means to be used by christs ministers , for procuring this , or investing them of it . 4. and that this was not a temporary , but fixed ordinance . all proved . how the holy ghost is given before faith , and after faith , and how sealed in baptism , and how not ? what hope of the success of imposition , with praier for the spirit . scripture and antiquity for it . reasons for the non-necessity of it to the the scrupulous . prop. xiv . though in receiving adult-persons out of infidelity by baptism into the church ; a sudden profession , without any stay to see their reformation , may serve turne , yet in receiving these that were baptized heretofore , into the number of adult-members , or to the priviledges of such , their lives must be enquired after , which must be such as do not confute their profession . prop. xv. it is not of flat necessity , that the profession of the expectant be made in the open congregation , or before many , in order to his confirmation or admittance . prop. xvi . when a person is admitted an adult-member of a particular church , as well as of the universal , his profession and admission must be either before the church , or satisfactorily made known to the church , at least , who must approve of it by a judgment of discretion , in order to their communion with him : and this among us is the ordinary case ; because it is the duty of all , that have opportunity to joyne themselves to some particu-church , and it is in such churches , that communion in publique worship and order must be had , either statedly , or transiently and temporarily . reasons to prove this interest of the people . cases of difference between pastours and people resolved . prop. xvii . it is convenient ( though not of necessity ) that every church do keep a register of all that are thus invested , or admitted into the number of adult-members . prop. xviii . those that were never thus ministerially and explicitly approved , confirmed , or absolved ( after an ungodly life ) but have been permitted without it , to joyne usually with the church in prayer and praises , and the lords supper , are approved and confirmed , eminently , though not formally , though in so doing , both the pastours and themselves might sinne against god , by the violation of his holy order . such therefore may be a true church , and are not to be called back to solemn confirmation , though in many cases they may be called to tryall by their overseers . prop. xix . so exceeding great and many are the mischiefs that have befallen us by the neglect of a solemn meet transition from an infant into the adult church-state , and which undoubtedly will continue till this be remedied , that all the magistrates , ministers & people , that dissemble not in professing themselves to be christians , should with speed and diligence attempt the cure . the state of our parishes anatomized . twenty intollerable mischiefs , that follow the taking all into our church-communion , and neglecting this confirmation : such as all christians should lay to heart . prop. xx. so many and great are the benefits that would follow the generall practice of this duty of trying , approving and confirming ( or absolving ) all those that enter into the number of adult-christians , that it should mightily provoke all christian magistrates , ministers , and people to joyne in a speedy and vigorous execution of it . twelve excellent benefits that will come by confirmation . it 's like to be an admirable increaser of knowledg , and holiness , and church-reformation . it 's a singular means of agreeing the episcopal , presbyterians , congregational , er●stians , and moderating the anabaptists : proved and urged . twenty objections against this approved profession and confirmation , answered . how little reason have princes , and parliaments to restraine most ministers here from overdoing . the duties that lie upon us all , for the execution of this work : and 1. on ministers . 1. we should agree upon an unanimous performance . 2. in those agreements , we must leave men to their liberty in all unnecessary modes , and circumstances . 3. in taking mens profession , we must avoid both extreams , viz. loose formality , and overmuch 4. what course must be taken with all our parishe , where some have without a personal approved profession already been admitted to the lords supper and some not particularly opened ? 5. we must require of all the notoriously ungodly , a penitent confession in order to absolution , as well as a profession of faith , and future obedience . 6. delegates to be chosen by particular churches , to meet with the pastours for those and other church-affaires . 7. the pastours and churches should be all associated , and the churches that we hold communion with , differenced from the rest : that those that are confirmed and received by them , may be capable of communion with all . 8. we must be diligent in publike and private teaching the catechumens , and walk inoffensively , condescendingly and vigilantly among them . 2. the duty of the people , especially the godly , in order to this work. 3. the magistrates duty hereto . 1. to cause those people that are unfit for church-communion , to live quietly in the state of expectants , and to submit to publique and personal instruction , and catechizing , to prepare them . 2. to compel ministers thus to teach and catechize them , and see that great parishes have so many teachers as may be able to do it . reasons for compelling us . 3. to lay some penalty on all pastors , that will not guide the church by discipline , as well as preach : not forbidding them to be preachers , but to be pastours and administer sacraments , that will not do it , as christ hath appointed . to these ends it may do well , for the magistrate to have his agent or church-justice to joyne in the church-meetings , and to inform the commissioners for ejection , who may be impowred hereunto . 4. to promote and command the associations and correspondencies of pastours and churches . with what limitations , and to what ends . 5. it would much further this work , if visitours were appointed in all parts to see it done , or put on ministers : not that any ministers should have a power of silencing , suspending , &c. but to let a civil visitor , and a visitor of the ministry be still joyned together , and let the minister have only a power to perswade , and the other as a magigistrate to compell , or to bring the causes , which are exempt from his power , to the superiour commissioners . 6. it 's the unquestionable duty of magistrates ( not to drive men to church-communion that are unmeet , but ) to restraine seducers , from taking advantage of their discontents and drawing them away , while they remaine expectants : ten reasons , that deserve the serious consideration of the magistrate , that shew the great necessity of this his moderate assistance , for keeping of deceivers , especially papists , and containing the prophane and ignorant people in quietness and submission to instruction in an expectant state till they are fit for church-communion . 7. to satisfie the magistrate that is afraid of persecution , certain regulations of toleration are propounded . 1. let all that pretend scruple of submitting to the personal or publique instruction of the teacher of the parish where he lives , be compelled to submit to some one else , who may give it under his hand that he takes that care of him . 2. let commissioners be appointed ( according to the laws given them ) to guard the door of toleration , as now they are to guard the door of publique allowance and maintenance : and let none be tolerated to preach or openly perswade ( though for nothing ) that have not an instrument of licence sealed by these commissioners : or else blasphemers and heathens may preach for all your laws against them . 3. let those that have a sealed toleration be as responsible to the commissioners , for their violating the laws of their toleration , as we are for breaking the laws that bind us : and let their toleration be forfeitable , as well as our maintenance . reasons for this . to conclude , if as before the daies of william the conquerour , magistrates and ministers might sit together , the ministers having no power but to perswade , and the magistrate the sole power of compulsion , and so 1. approvers keep the door of toleration . 2. a church justice , or agent of the magistrates keep the peace of every church , or parish . 3. and the civil and ministerial visiters aforesaid shall be appointed to take cognisance of the state of parishes . 4. and the commissioners for ejection of scandalous ministers , be equally enabled to eject the scandalous and blasphemous from their toleration ; the magistrate might assist us without danger of persecution . confirmation and restauration the necessary means of reformation and reconciliation . quest . whether those that were baptized in infancy , should be admitted to the priviledges proper to adult church-members , without confirmation , or restauration , by an approved profession of personal faith and repentance ? neg. though the distempers of the churches of christ in england , are not so great as the popish adversaries , or some discontented brethren do pretend , nor as some inconsiderate lamenters of our condition do imagine , who observe less our enjoyments then our wants , and that have not the faculty of discerning our true agreements , where there is any difference , but think that many things are wanting that are not , because they cannot find them : yet is our discomposure such as the wisest have cause to mourn for , and all of us should contribute our endeavours to redress . and for the accomplishment of this blessed work , two things must be done : the first is , to discover the principles that must reform and heal us , if ever we be healed ; and to acquaint the world with the necessary means . the second is , to concur for the execution , in the application and use of the remedie , when it is discovered . the first is a work , that is usually done best by a few at first : though the more receive and approve of the discovery , the better it will be brought into use . but it 's here , saith pemble , as in discerning a thing a farre off , where one clear eye will see further then many that are dimme , and the greatest conjunction of unfurnished intellects affords not so much assistance for the discovery , as the greater sight of a few may do . but in the executive , part , there must be many hands to the work . if the pastours and people do not consent , it cannot be accomplished ; and if they barely consent , and be not up and doing , discoveries will lie dead , and nothing will go on : and if the christian magistrate afford not his assistance , his guilt will be great , and the work will go the more heavily on . though all the body be not an eye , and therefore be not as good at discovering as the eye is ; yet must each member perform its own office , and none be idle , or withdraw its helpe , because it is not an eye ; but all must execute by the guidance of the eye . in order to the discovery of the healing meanes , among others , this rule is worthy our observation . if any church order , or administration seem offensive to you , before you wholly cast it out , consider whether there be not somewhat that is necessary and excellent either in the substance , or in the occasion and reason of it : and you will find , that reformation is to be accomplished more by restauration of ordinances and administrations to their primitive nature and vse , then by the utter abolition of them . satan found it easier to corrupt the ordinances of christ , and to cause them to degenerate into somewhat like them , then to introduce such of his own as were wholly new , and as christ had given no occasion of . i could give you very usefull instances in many of the popish administrations , which require a restauration , rather then an abolition , lest that which is christ's part , be cast out with that which is mans , and we should throw away the apple which should be but pared ; and lest we cast away our necessary food , and most precious jewels , because they have fallen into romish dirt . but my present business is to instance only in confirmation and penitence , so farre as is requisite to the decision of the question now before us . i know you will easily excuse me from the needless labour of explaining any terms in the question which you understand already : i think the best method to lay the matter naked before your understandings , will be by approaches and degrees in the opening and confirming of these propositions . prop. i. it is here supposed , that the infants of believers should by baptism be admitted into the church , and so be partakers of infant priv●ledges . their sinne and misery is come upon them without any actual consent of their own , by the will of others ; and the remedy must be applyed to them accordingly , not by any actual consent of their own ( which is as impossible ) but by the will of others , as the condition , and by the gift of god as the cause . in his dealing with mankind ; god is not so much more prone to wrath and vengeance then to mercy , as to put infants into the comminatory terrible part of the covenant , with their parents , and not into the remedying part ; and to condemn them for their first fathers covenant-breaking , and give them no help from their gracious parents covenant-keeping ; and to fetch weight from parents sinnes to weigh down the scale of vindictive justice , and to put nothing from the gracious parents into the other end . yet is it not to infants as the meer natural issue of godly parents , that god extendeth this grace . but 1. as they are naturally their own , the parents have a power of them to dispose of them for their good . 2. every man that is sanctified , hath devoted himself , and in generall , all that he hath to god ; according to the several capacities of what he hath , that every thing may be for god in its proper capacity . 3. virtually then the children of the godly , even in the wombe are thus devoted unto god. 4. it is the revealed will of god , that infants should be actually dedicated and devoted to him . 5. he that requireth us to make this dedication , doth imply therein a promise of his acceptance of what is dedicated to him by his command . for his precepts are not vain or delusory . 6. he hath also expressly signified this in scripture promises , extending his covenant to the seed of the faithfull , and telling us that his kingdom is of such . 7. this dedication is to be made by baptism , the ordinance which god hath appointed to that end ; and in which he is ready to signifie his acceptance , that so there may be a mutual solemn covenant . the servants of god before christ's coming were enabled and required to enter their infants into the covenant of god , sometime ( and ordinarily ) in circumcision , and sometime ( as in the wilderness , deut. 29 ) without it . and they have the same natural interest , and as large a discovery that it 's the w●ll of god , for the dedicating of their children , to god , and choosing for them , and entering them into the holy covenant , now as then . if then a child that had no exercise of its own will , might by the will of his parents choose the lord , and be entered into covenant with him , it is then so still . god hath no where reverst or abrogated that command , which obliged parents to enter their children into covenant with god , and devote them to him . nay christ chid those that would keep them from him , because his kingdom , that is , his church , is of such . a place that doth purposely and plainly express the continuance of his love to infants , and yet the gospel entertaineth them as readily as the law or promise before did . oft and again doth christ signifie to the jews that he would have gathered them wholly to his church , and not have broken them off , if they had not by unbelief been broken off , and in the same olive hath he engraffed the gentile church . infants are members of all commonwealths on the face of the earth , though they know not what a common-wealth is , nor yet what soveraignty or subjection mean. and he that should say they are no members , because they are imperfect members , would but be laughed at . and christ hath not cast them out of his family or commonwealth , nor shut the door against them . and that in this infant state they are capable of many priviledges is apparent . they have original sinne , which must be pardoned , or they are lost . most of the anabaptists that i hear of , do hold that all the infants in the world are pardoned by christ , and shall be saved if they die in infancy , and run in the downright pelagian road . but this is not only utterly unproved , but contrary to scripture , which telleth us , that sinne is not pardoned by the bloodshed of christ , till men be brought into union with him , and participation of him , and for all his bloodshed , no man shall have pardon by it , till it be given him by the act of pardon in the gospel . now the gospel no where gives out pardon to every infant in the world : nay it frequently and plainly makes a difference . the parents will doth accept the offer , and choose for them that cannot choose for themselves . for others , what ever god will do with them , doubtless they have no promise of mercy . and it 's strange that they should deny baptism to infants that deny not salvation to them , yea that think ( though ungroundedly ) that they are all in a state of salvation . for either infants have original sinne , or not : if they have none , then they need no saviour , and must be saved without a saviour ; for the whole need not the physician , but the sick . if they have original sinne , and that it is pardoned to them by christ , then how can men deny them the sign and seale of pardon , or the solemn investing means . if they are sure that they are washt with christ's blood , how can they deny to wash them with that water , that is appointed to signifie and invest ? moreover , infants are capable of many other priveledges ; and of being the adopted sonnes of god , the members of christ , the heirs of heaven , as having right thereto ; and being the members of the church , and being under the special protection and provision of god , and in a special sort partakers of the prayers of the church , with divers more . as in the commonwealth , an infant is capable of having honour and inheritance in right , though not actally to use them ; and of the protection of the laws for life , reputation and estate ; and of being tenant , and obliged to pay a certain rent and homage when he comes to age , and in the mean time to have provisions from the estate that he hath title to . but all this i have fuller exprest elsewhere : and i have altely read mr tombes's last and large reply , to part of my book , and many others ; and must needs say that it leaves me still perswaded that it is the will of christ that the infants of his servants should be dedicated to him in baptism , and members of his visible church ; and though upon the review of my arguments i find that i have used too many provoaking words , for which i am heartily sorry , and desire pardon of god and him , yet i must say , that i am left more confident then before , that the cause is gods which mr tombes opposeth : of which if god will , i intend yet to give some further account : in the mean time i deal with this but as a supposition that is already sufficiently proved , though all men , yea all good men see not the sufficiency of the proofe . prop. 2. there are many priveledges belonging to the adult members of the church , which infant members are not capable of . this is true both of natural and moral capacities : the priviledges which i mean are , the pardon of many actual sinnes , committed since they are adult ; the exercise of all holy graces ; knowing god ; loving him ; trusting him ; serving him ; the communion that we have with god herein ; as particularly in prayer , in holy praises and thanksgivings , in heavenly meditations ; the peace and joy that followeth believing , and the hopes of everlasting life ; the communion which we have with the church of christ in hearing , praying , praises , the sacrament of the body and blood of christ , in distribution by giving and receiving , and an endearing holy love within : these and many more priveledges are proper to the adult . that infants are not naturally capable of these , is as needless to prove , as that they are infants : and then that they are not morally capable , is an inseparable consequent . for though natural capacity may be without moral , yet moral cannot be without natural : in point of duty , infants are not bound to the work ; as to hear , pray , prayse , &c. beyond the natural capacity of their intellects and bodies : and so in point of benefit , we must have more sobriety , then to suppose god to make over any benefit to them which they are not capable of . all this is plain . prop. 3. the continuation of priveledges received in infancy , is part of the priveledges of the adult ; or the restoration of them if they be lost . if the cause discontinue , the effect will cease . adult priveledges comprehend the infant priviledges , partly as that which is perfect comprehendeth the imperfect , and partly as the whole comprehendeth the parts ; and partly as the thing continued is the same with the thing begun . infant priviledges would all cease with infancy , if the causes or conditions cease , and there be no other cause for their continuance . god never took infants into his church and covenant , with a purpose so to continue them , without any other condition then that upon which they were admitted . this is past denyal , and will be more cleared in the next . prop. 4. the title-condition of infant church-membership and priviledges , is not the same with the title-condition of the church-membership and priviledges of the adult ; so that if this new condition be not performed when men come to age , their former title ceaseth , and there is no other that ariseth in his stead . 1. we are agreed i think , that our title , ( which is fundamentum juris ) is gods covenant , graunt , or guift . as it is his precept that constituteth our duty , so it is his promise or deed of gift which is our title to the benefit . 2. and we are agreed i hope , that this promise , or grant from god is conditional , for if church-membership and priviledges he absolutly given , then it is to all , or but to some : not to all ; for then the church , and the world are all one ; and then it is not ecclesia , caetus evocatus ; and then heathens and infidels have right ; which are things that no christian , i think will grant : if it be but some that have title , then there must be some note to know them by : or else the some will be equal to all or to none . and if they be marked out , then it must be by name or by description : not by name ; for we find the contrary . scripture doth not name all that have title to church priviledges . if it be by description , it is either by meer physical , or by moral qualifications that they are described : the former , none doth imagine , that i hear of . if they are moral qualifications , then either they are such as are prerequisite to our right and priviledges , or not : that they are prerequisite all must confess that read the promise , and all do confess that they are prerequisite to all the following priviledges : and if prerequisite , then either as means or no means . the later none can affirm , without going against so much light , as ordinary christians have still ready at hand to confute them with : and if they are required as means , then either as causes or conditions : and i think you will sooner yield them to be conditions then causes , though either concession sufficeth to the end that is before us . but of this we need to say no more , both because it is commonly confessed , and because that the words of the promises are so plaine , and undenyable , being uttered in conditional terms . nor is this either inconsistent with , or any way unsuitable to an absolute decree : for as a threatning , so the conditionality of a promise , are instruments admirably suited to the accomplishment of an absolute purpose or decree . he that is fully resolved to save us , or to give us the priviledges of his church , will deal with us as men , in bringing us to the possession of the intended benefits ; and therefore will by threats and conditional promises excite us to a careful performance of the condition : and that grace which is resolved to effect the very condition in us , is also resolved to make a conditional promise , yea and a threatening the instrument of effecting it . 3. note , that the great question , whether all the infants of true believers are certainly justified , or whether some of them have but lower priviledges , is not here to be determined , but , in a fitter place : and therefore i determine not what priviledges they are that will cease , if our infant title cease . but that according to the tenour of the promise , the continuance of them , with the addition of the priviledges proper to the adult , are all laid upon a new condition . 4. note also , that when i call it another or different condition , i mean not that it is different in the nature of the act , but in the agent or subject . it is the same kind of faith which at first is required in the parent , for the childs behoof , and that afterward is required in our selves . but the condition of the infants title is but this , that he be the child of a believer . dedicated to god : but the condition of the title of persons at age is , that they be themselves believers , that have dedicated themselves to god. the faith of the parent , is the condition of infant title ; and the faith of the person himself , is the condition of the title of one at age. that their own faith is not the condition of an infants title , i think i need not prove : for 1. they are uncapable of believing without a miracle : 2. if they were not ( as some lutherans fondly think ) . yet it 's certain that we are uncapable of discerning by such a sign . i think no minister that i know will judge what infants do themselves believe , that he may baptise them . 3. and i think no man that looks on the command , or promise , and the person of an infant , will judge that he is either commanded then to believe , or that his believing is made the condition of his infant title . but that a personal believing is the condition of the title of them at age , is as farre past doubt : and it 's proved thus . arg. 1. the promise it self doth expresly require a faith of our own , of all the adult that will have part in the priviledges : therefore it is a faith of our own that is the condition of our title , mark 16 16. he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved , and he that believeth not shall be damned , act. 8. 36 , 37. and the eunuch said , see here is water , what doth hinder me to be baptized ? and philip said , if thou believest with all thy heart , thou maist , act. 2. 38 , 41. repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of jesus christ for the remission of sinnes , &c. then they that gladly received his word were baptized , act. 10. 44 , 47 , 48. act. 16. 14 , 15. & 30. 32 , 33. rom. 10. 12 , 13 , 14. with many other texts , do put this out of doubt . argument 2. we were engaged in our infant baptismal covenant to believe and repent , when we came to age , as a means to our reception of the benefits of the covenant , proper to the adult : therefore we must perform our covenant , and use this means , if we will have the benefits . arg. 3. if another condition were not of necessity to the aged , beside the condition that was necessary to them in infancy , then turks , jews , and heathens , should have right to church-membership , and priviledges of the adult : but the consequent is notoriously false : therefore so is the antecedent . the reason of the consequent is evident . because a man that hath believing parents , may turn turk ( as is known in thousands of janizaries ) or jew , or pagan : and therefore if it were enough , that he was the child of a believer , his title to church priviledges would still continue . and so among professed christians , the child of a believer may turn heretick , or notoriously prophane and scandalous , and yet have title to church priviledges , if his first title still hold , and a personal faith be not a necessary condition of his right . adde to these the many arguments tending to confirm the point in hand , which i have laid down on another occasion in my d●sputations of right to sacraments . but i think i need not spend more words to perswade any christians , that our parents faith will not serve to give us title to the church priviledges of the adult , but we lose our right even to church-membership it self , if when we come to age , we adde not a personal faith ( or profession at least ) of our own . i only adde that this is a truth so farre past doubt , that even the papists and the greekshave put it into their canons . for the former , you may find it in the decrees , part. 3. dist . 3. pag. ( mihi ) 1241 cited out of augustinin these words parvulus qui baptizatur , fi●ad anne●s rationales veniens , non crediderit , nec ab illicitis abstinuerit , nihil ei prodest , quod parvulus accepit . that is , an infant that is baptized , if comming to years of discretion , he do not believe , nor abstain from things unlawfull , that which he received in infancy , doth profit him nothing . and for the greeks , that this is according to their mind , you may see in zonaras in comment . in epist . canon can. 45. cited ex basilii mag. epist . 2. ad amphiloch . thus , siquis acc●pto nomine christianismi , christum contumeliâ afficit , nulla est illi appellationis utilitas : that is ; if any one having received the name of christianity , shall repreach christ , he hath no profit by the name . on which zonaras addeth qui christo credidit , & christianus appellatus est , cum ex divinis praecept is vitam instituere oportet , ut hac ratione deus per ipsum glorificetur , quemadmodum illis verbis praecipitur , sic luceat lux vestra coram hominibus , &c. siquis autem nominatur quidem christianus , de● vero praecepta transgreditur , contumeliam irregat christo , cujus de nomine appellatur , nec quicquam ex eâ appellatione utilitatis trahit : that is , seeing he believed in christ , and is called a christian , ought to order his life by the commandements of god that so god may be glorified by him ; according to that [ let your light so shine before men , &c. ] if any one that is called a christian , shall transgress gods commands , he brings a reproach on christ , by whose name he is called ; and he shall not receive the least profit by that title , or name . this is somewhat higher then the point needs , that i bring it for . and indeed , it were a strange thing , if all other infidels should be shut out of the priviledges of the church , except only the treacherous covenant-breaking infidel ; ( for such are all that being baptized in infancy , prove no christians when they come to age. ) as if persidiousness would give him right . prop. 5. as a personal faith is the condition before god of title to the priviledges of the adult ; so the profession of this faith , is the condition of his right before the church ; and without this profession , he is not to be taken as an adult member , nor admitted to the priviledges of such . this proposition also , as the sunne , revealeth its self by its own light , and therefore commandeth me to say but little for the confirmation of it . arg. 1. the church cannot judge of things unknown : non entium , & non apparentium eadem est ratio : not to appear , and not to be , is all one as to the judgment of the church . we are not searchers of the heart ; and therefore we must judge by the discoveries of the heart , by outward signes . arg. 2. if profession of faith were not necessary coram ecclesiâ to mens church-membership and priviledges , then infidels and heathens would have right , as was said in the former case , and also the church and the world would be confounded , and the church would be no church : but these are consequents that i hope no christians will have a favourable thought of : and therefore they should reject the antecedent . arg. 3. it is a granted case among all christians , that profession is thus necessary : the apostles and ancient churches admitted none without it : nor no more must we . though all require not the same manner of profession , yet that profession it self is the least that can be required of any man , that layeth claim to church priviledges and ordinances proper to adult members : this we are all agreed in , and therefore i need not adde more proof , where i find no controversie . but yet as commonly as we are agreed on this , yet because it is the very point which most of the stress of our present disputation lieth on , it may not be amiss to foresee what may possibly be objected by any new comers hereafter . object . perhaps some may say , 1. that we find no mention of professions required in scripture : 2. it is not probable that peter received a profession from those thousands whom he so suddenly baptized . 3 our churches have been true churches without such a profession , personally and distinctly made : therefore it may be so still . to these briefly , yet satisfactorily . 1. the scripture gives us abundant proof that a plain profession was made in those times by such as were baptized at age , and so admitted ( by reason of their ripeness and capacity ) into the church , and to the speciall communion and priviledges of the adult at once . to say much of the times of the old testament , or before christ , would be but to interrupt you with less pertinent things : yet there it is apparent , that all the people were solemnly engaged in covenant with god , by moses , more then once : and that this was renewed by joshua , and other godly princes ; and that asa made the people not only enter into a covenant to seek the lord god of their fathers , with all their hearts , and with all their soul : but that whosoever would not seek him should be put to death , whether smal or great , man or woman : and they sware to the lord with a loud voice , and with shoutings , and with trumpets , and with cornets , 2 chron. 15. 12 , 13 , 14. so following princes called the people to this open covenanting . but this is not all : to take the lord only to be their god , ( with the rest of the law ) was the very essence of an isarelites religion , which they did not only openly profess , but excessively sometimes glory in . as circumcision sealed the covenant ( and therefore supposed the covenant ) to infants and aged whoever were circumcised ; so had they many sorts of sacrifice , and other worship , in which they all were openly to profess the same religion and covenant . many purifications also , and sanctifyings of the people they had : and many figures of the covenant . i am the lord thy god , &c. thou shalt have no other gods before me , &c. was the tenour of the covenant which every israelite expressly and by frequent acts professed to consent to : the law is called a covenant , which all were to own , and avouch the lord to be their god , and themselves his people . see deut. 26. 17 , 18. & chap. 29. 10 , 11 , 14 , &c. 2 king. 23. 3. 2 chron. 23. 3 , 16. & chap. 29. 10. ezr. 10. 3. neh. 9. 38. psal . 50. 5. ezek. 20. 37. jer. 50. 5. isa . 56. 4 , 5. exod. 34. 27. psal . 103. 18. & 25. 10. & 18. 10 , &c. and yet i hope no chhistian would wish that we should deal no more openly and clearly with god , the church , and our selves , in daies of gospel light and worship , then the jews were to do in their darker state , under obscure types and shadows . we find that when john baptist set up his ministry , he caused the people to cenfess their sinnes , matth. 3. 6. and if we confess our sinnes , god is faithfull and just to forgive us our sinnes , 1 joh. 1. 19. and whereas some say , that john baptized them , that he calleth a generation of vipers ; i answer , 1. we will believe that when they prove it . it seems rather that he put them back . 2. if he did baptize them , it was not till they confessed their sinnes ( before that all did , ) and it seems by his charge , till they promised to bring forth fruits meet for repentance , matth. 3. 8. christ would not have so instructed nicodemus in the nature and necessity of regeneration , before he was a disciple , if a professed or apparent preparation had not been necessary . nor would he ordinarily have taught men the necessity of denying themselves , and forsaking all for a treasure in heaven , with such like , if they would be his disciples , if the profession of so doing had not been necessary , to their visible discipleship . i grant that so full a profession was not made before christs resurrection as after : for many articles of our belief were afterward made necessary : and the apostles themselves were unacquainted with what the weakest christian did afterwards believe . but still the essentials of faith , then necessary in existence to mens justification , were necessary in profession ●● mens visible christianity or church-membership . as to those acts. 2. 37. &c. it is plain , that they made an open profession , if you consider 1. that they were openly told the doctrine which they must be baptized into , if they did consent : 2. it is said , they that gladly received that word , were baptized . 3. it is certain therefore that they first testified their glad reception of the word . 4. we may not imagine that peter was god , or knew the hearts of all those thousands , and therefore he must know it by their profession , that they gladly received the word . 5. their own mouths cry out for advice in order to their salvation . 6. it had been absurd for the apostles to attempt to baptize men , that had not first professed their consent . 7. the scripture gives us not the full historical narration of all that was said and done in such cases , but of so much as was necessary . 8. the institution and nature of the ordinance tells us , that baptism could not be administred without a profession , to the adult : for they were to be baptzed into the name of father , sonne , and holy ghost , and therefore were to profess that they believed in father , sonne , and holy ghost . yea the very receiving of baptism was an actuall profession . 9. the constant practice of the universal church , hath given us by infallible tradition , as full assurance of the order of baptism , and in particular of an exprss profession and covenant then made , as of any point that by the hands of the church can be received by us . 10. and it was in those daies a more notorious profession to be so baptized , and to joyn in the holy assemblies then now it is . when the profession of christianity did hazard mens liberties , estates , and lives , to be openly then baptized upon covenanting with god the father , sonne , and holy ghost , and openly joyn with a hated , persecuted sort of men , was an eminent sort of profession . it being also usually private in houses , as separated from the main body of the people , and not in publike places like ours , where men are ( justly ) driven to come as leaners for instruction . moreover , it 's said of all that were baptized ( being then at age ) that they first believed : and how could the baptizers know that they believed , but by their profession : yea , it 's said of simon magus , that he believed and was baptized ; which ( though he might really have some historical faith , yet ) implyeth , that he openly professed more then he indeed had , or else he had scarce been baptized . which hath caused interpreters to judge , that by faith is meant a profession of faith. and if so , then sure a profession was still necessary . yea , christ in his commission directeth his apostles to make disciples , and then baptize them ; promising , that he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved . and who can tell whether a man be a disciple , a believer , or an infidel , but by his profession . how was it known but by their profession , that the samaritans believed philip , preaching the things concerning the kingdom of god , and the name of jesus christ , before they were baptized both men and women ? act. 8. 12. philip caused the eunuch to profess before he would baptise him , that he believed that jesus christ is the sonne of god ; which upon his teaching the rest , did import the rest , if it were not more fully ( as is likest ) professed , act. 8 37 , 38. saul had more then a bare profession before baptism , acts 9. 5 , 15 , 17. cornelius and his company had a profession and more , for they had the holy ghost powred on them , speaking with tongues , and magnifying god : ( that use of the gift of tongues imparting more then the gift it self , ) acts 10. 46. yea , the spirit bid peter , go and not doubt , acts 11. 12 and it was such a gift of the spirit , as caused the apostles to conclude , that god had granted the gentiles repentance unto life , acts 11. 18. how was it known but by their profession ? acts 11. 21. that that great number believed and turned to the lord , and the grace of god was such as barnabas saw , vers . 23. and when saul after his baptism assayed to joyn himself to the disciples at jerusalem , they so suspected him , that they would not receive him , till barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles , and declared to them , how god had dealt with him , and how boldly at damascus he had preached in the name of jesus ; which shews that they admitted not men to their communion , till their profession seemed credible to them . for no doubt but saul told them himself that he was a believer , before he was put to make use of the testimony of barnabas . the converted gentiles , acts 13. 48. shewed their belief and gladness , and openly glorified the word of the lord. how but by a profession did it come to pass , that the great multitude at iconium , both jews and greeks , were known to be believers , acts 14. 1. the same i may say of the jaylour , acts 16. who by works as well as words declared his conversion . and the bereans , acts 17. 12. and the athenians , acts 17. 34. and crispus with the corinthians , acts 18. 8. acts 19. 18. the believing ephesians , confessed and shewed their deeds , and many of them burnt as many of their books of ill arts as came to fifty thousand pieces of silver . in a word , it is the standing rule , that if thou confess with thy mouth the lord jesus , and believe in thy heart that god raised him from the dead , thou shalt be saved , for with the heart man believeth unto righteousnes : and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation . he that bids us receive him that is weak in the faith , but not to doubtfull disputations , implieth , that we must not receive them that profess not at least a weak faith. heb. 5. & 6. 1 , 2 , 3. shew that the principles of the doctrine of christ , were first laid as the foundation ; before baptism . and who received those principles could not be known but by a profession . to this let me adde , that poenitentiam age●e was judged by the ancient doctours , the repentance that was prerequisite to baptism : and that is , a manifested , professed repentance . gods order is ( to the adult ) first to send preachers to proclaim the gospel ; and when by that men are brought so farre , as to profess or manifest that their cies are opened , and that they are turned from darkness to light , and from the power of satan unto god , then must they be baptized , for the remission of their sinnes , and to receive the inheritance among the sanctified by faith in christ , acts 26. 17. 18. as their sinnes are not forgiven them till they are converted , mark 4. 12. so they must not be baptised for the forgiveness of sinnes , till they profess themselves converted : seeing to the church non esse , & non apparere is all one . repentance towards god , and faith towards our lord jesus christ , is the summe of that preaching that maketh disciples , acts 20. 21. and therefore both these must by profession seem to be received , before any at age are baptized . if as many as are baptized into christ , are baptized into his death ; and are buried with him by baptism into his death , that like as christ was raised from the dead , so we also should walk in newness of life , rom. 6. 4 , 5. then no doubt but such as were to be baptized , did first pro●ess this mortification , and a consent to be buried and revived with christ , and to live to him in newness of life . for paul was never so much for the opus operatum above the papsts , as to think that the baptizing of an infidel , might effect these high and excellent things . and he that professeth not faith , nor ever did , is to the church an infidel . in our baptism we put off the body of the sinnes of the flesh , by the circumcision of christ , being buried with him , and rising with him through faith — quickned with him , and having all our trespasses forgiven , col. 3. 11 , 12 , 13. and will any man , yea , will paul , ascribe all this to those that did not so much as profess the things signified , or the necessary condition ? will baptism , in the judgment of a wise man , do all this for an infidel , or one that professeth not to be a christian ? baptism is said to save us , 1 pet. 3. 21. and therefore they that will be baptized must profess the qualifications necessary to the saved . the key 's of the kingdom of heaven are put into the churches hands ; and they that are loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven ( if the key do not erre ) and therefore pastours of the church must absolve none ( by baptism ) that do not by profession seem to be absolvable in heaven : they must profess to have the old man crucified with christ , that the body of sinne might be destroyed , that henceforth they might not serve sinne , rom. 6. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. as many as have been baptized into christ , have put on christ , and are all one in christ jesus : and are abrahams seed , and heirs , according to promise , gal. 3. 27 , 28 , 29. this speaks the apostle of the probability grounded on a credible profession . and thereforeit is clear , that the profession was presupposed , that might support this charitable judgment . our baptism is the solemnizing of our marriage with christ . and it s a new and strang kind of marriage , where there is no profession of consent . the baptized are in scripture called men washed , sanctified , justified , &c. 1 cor. 6. 11. 1 cor. 14. 33. they are all called saints , and churches of saints , 1 cor. 1. 2. all christians are called sanctified ones , or saints ; therefore it s certaine that they professed themselves such . but why should i go any further in this , when the main substance of my dispute of right to the sacraments proves it ? i intreat the reader that would have more , to prove not only the necessity of a profession , but also of the profession of a saving faith , to peruse that book , or at least the second disputation , where are twenty arguments for it ; and the sence of all the ancient churches there cited out of mr gatakers collections . see also dr hammonds many testimonies to prove the use of the abrenuntiation , paraenes . pag. 18 , 19 , 20. i love not needlesly to recite whath others have already cited . but he that knows not , that the universal church from the daies of the apostles , hath baptized the adult , upon a personal profession of faith , and repentance , and vow , or promise , or covenant for obedience , knows little of what the church hath practised . and i hope few sober men will be found that will be so singular and self-conceited , as to contradict the practise of the universal church in such a case as this , and set up their own private judgment against it , and go about to perswade us to a new way of church enterance , and admission , now in the end of the world . blame me not to be confident with you , where i have so good ground as scripture , and so good company , as the primitive universal church . to this let me adde , that most , or too many , that we are to receive to the priviledges of adult members , have violated their baptism-covenant , and proved ungodly after baptism , and that by open , notorious scandals . now scripture , and the practice of the universal ancient church direct us , to require of these an open confession of sinne : for they need an absolution , and not a meer confirmation . it is past all controversie , that such have both an open confession and profession to make . yea , how scrupulous the ancient church was of receiving and absolving such violators of the baptismal covenant ; and on how severe terms they did it , is known to all , that know any thing of those times . i pray amongst others see what grotius ( discus . apol. rivet . pag. 221 , 222. ) citeth from irenaeus , tertullian , pacimus , hierom , &c. ad pag. 235. n. and as to the last objection ( that our churches were true churches , when we made no particular professions . ) i answer 1. without some profession of true christianity , our churches could not have been true churches . and therefore against those that would prove them no churches , we plead ( and justly ) that a profession was made by them . 2. but i pray you mark , that that will prove a church to be a true church , which will not prove every person in the parish , to be a true member of that church . 3. and he that thinks it enough , that our churches have a meer metaphysical verity , ( such as bishop hall , and multitudes of learned protestants allow the church of rome it self ) is as good a friend to it , as he is to his wife or child , that will let them go naked ; yea , and be contented , that they catch the plague , or leaprosie , yea , and plead for it too ; and all , because they have still the truth of humane nature . i know that any thing that may truly be called a profession , will ( in that point ) seem to prove the being of the church . but as it will not seem to prove the well-being ; so an obscure profession doth but obscurely prove the being of it : which an open , plain profession doth more clearly prove . let us not befriend either the kingdom of darkness , or the seperatists so much , as to leave our churches so open to their exceptions , and so apt to cherish and befriend their ignorance , and infidelity of the world . if coming to church , and sitting there be somewhat a probable argument , that men do implicitly believe , as that church believes ; yet , it 's a very dark proof , that they understand what the church believes : especially when experience hath acquainted us with the contray of many of them . but now i have said this much for a personal and plain profession , i would faine know what any man hath against it . the church through the great mercy of god , hath yet liberty to use it . and we see how many thousands make a blind kind of shew of christianity , going from one publike duty to another , and knowing not what they do . and is there not need that they should be brought out into the open light , and see their way ? if covenanting with god the father , son , and holy ghost , be the essence of our christianity ; in the name of god , i desire you to consider whether it be a thing to be hudled up in the dark ? unless it be mens design to hide the nature of christianity , and keep people in destructive ignorance , and delude their souls with a name and shew of a religion , which they understand not ; they will surely be willing that men should know the covenant that they make , and understand what they do , before they enter into a marriage bond with christ , ( if at age ) or own it , if they have been entered in infancy . why should we choose darkness rather then light ? why should an implicit covenant and profession be pleaded for ? when the being of a profession is palam fateri , openly to make known ; and when we know by sad experience , that when we have all done the best we can , to make our ignorant people understand , we shall find enough ado to accomplish it . ignorance hath no need of frendship : especially from ministers it deserveth none : especially in so great a point as the covenant that men make with christ . we have wares that deserve the light , and need not a dark shop . we have a master that we need not be affraid , or ashamed , explicitly and publickly to confess . it beseemes not so high and honourable a profession as that of a christian , to be lapt up in obscurity . such a glorious state as sonneship to god , to be an heir of heaven , &c. should be entered into with great solemnity , and owned accordingly at our first rationall acceptance and acknowledgment . kings are crowned more solemnly , then poor men take possession of their cottages . christ will be ashamed of them before the angels , that are ashamed of him before men , and will confess them before his father , that confess him before men . christianity is not a game to be plaid under board . why then should any be against an open professing , and covenanting with christ ? if it be needfull that we covenant , certainly the plainest and most explicite covenanting is the best . and what will be his portion , that hath a male in his flock , and offereth the worst , yea the halt and blind to god ? let us therefore deal as openly , and plainly , and understandingly in the covenant of god as we can , and not contrive it in the greatest darkness that is consistent with the essence of a church . nay let us not tempt men to unchurch us , or separate from us , by leaving our cause to such arguments as this : [ such a man sitteth among other hearers , in the congregation : therefore he maketh a profession of the christian faith ; ] lest they think it followeth not [ therefore he seemeth to understand the christian faith ; ] much less [ he professeth it : ] especially when it 's known that so many understand it not ; and that the papists in their writings , maintain it lawfull , for them to be present at our assemblies ; and infidels tell us , that they can hear any man , and do come thither . nehemiah caused the jewsto subscribe the covenant , and seal it , ( c. 9 . v . 38. ) even under the law it was the character of visible saints , to make a covenant with god by sacrifice , psal . 50. 5. at least now god hath caused us to pass under the rod. let us yield to be brought under the bond of the covenant , ezek. 20. 37. and let us as weeping israel and judah , seek the lord our god , and ask the way to zion , with our faces thitherward , saying ; come and let us joyne our selves to the lord , in a perpetual covenant , that shall not be forgotten , jer. 50 4 , 5. let us take hold of his covenant , and choose the things that please him , that he may bring us into his holy mountain , and make us joyfull in his house of prayer , and our sacrifices may be accepted on his altar , isa . 56. 4 , 6 , 7. are not these the daies of which it is said , isa . 44. 3 , 4 , 5. i will poure water on him that is thirsty , and floods upon the dry ground : i will poure my spirit on thy seed , and my blessing on thine offspring ; and they shall spring as among the grass , as willows by the water courses . one shall say , i am the lords ; and another shall call himself by the name of jacob , and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the lord ; and surname himself by the name of israel . i would have as little covenanting for doubtfull , or needless , or mutable things , in church or state , as is possible : but in the great things of our salvation , even the essence of christianity , we cannot be bound too fast , nor deal too understandingly , and openly with god. prop. 6. it is not every kind of profession , that is the condition , or necessary qualification of those that are to be admitted to the priviledges of adult members , but such a profession as god hath made necessaery , by his express word , and by the nature of the object , and the vses , and ends , to which be doth require it . the negative is not controverted among us . if any were so quarrelsom or ignorant , it 's easily proved . and i shall do it briefly , but satisfactorily , in the opening of the affirmative . i have proved in my first disputation of right to sacraments , ( which i desire the reader , that would have further satisfaction , to peruse ) the necessity of these following qualifications of this profession . 1. in general , as to the object of our faith , it must be a profession of true christianity , and no less . it must be a profession of our entertainment , both of the truth of the gospel , and of the good therein revealed and offered . more particularly , it must be a profession , that we believe in god the father , sonne , and holy ghost , as to the nature , persons , and works , which they have done or undertaken for us . yet more particularly , and explicitly : it must be a profession , 1. that we believe in god the father , and so the pure deity , as our creatour , soveraign , and chief good , who gave us the law of nature , by breaking of which , we have lost our selves , and all our part in everlasting life . 2. that we believe in jesus christ , god and man , that taking our nature , fulfilled the law , overcame the devil , dyed as a sacrifice for our sinnes , rose again , and conqured death , ascened into heaven , where he is lord of all , and the king , prophet , and priest of his church , in glory with the father : that he hath offered himself with pardon , and eternal life , to all that will accept him , on his terms : and that he will come again at last to raise us from death , and judge the world , and justifie his saints , and bring them to eternal glory , and cast the wicked into utter misery . 3. that we believe in god the holy ghost , that inspired the prophets and apostles , to deliver , and confirm the word of god , and who is the sanctifier of all that shall be saved , illuminating their understandings ; & changing their hearts and lives , humbling them for their sinne and misery , causing them to believe in christ , the remedie , and heartily and thankfully accept him ; possessing them with an hearty love of god , and a heavenly mind , and a hatred of sinne , and love of holiness , and turning the principal bent of their hearts and lives , to the pleasing of god , and the attaining of eternal life . this much must be believed , and the belief of this much , must be somehow professed . 2. as to the acts of the thing professed , it must be , not only the naked assent of the understanding ; but both this assent that the gospel is true , and a consent of the will , to take god the father , sonne , and holy ghost , to the forementioned ends , in the forementioned relations ; and to give up our selves unfeignedly to him , renouncing the flesh , the world , and the devil . 3. as to the nature of the profession it self . 1. it must in general be credible : for no man is bound to believe that which is incredible . the words are the signs of the mind , and as such they are to be uttered , and received . if they be contrary to the mind , they are false ; and if wilfully contrary , they are a lie : and god doth not make a lie to be the condition of church-membership , or priviledges ; nor doth he bind his ministers , or church , to believe a known lie : nothing but real , or seeming truth is to be believed . 2. more particularly , the profession which we speak of , must have these qualifications . 1. it must be , or seem to be vnderstanding . ignorant is non est consensus . if a parrat could say the creed , it were not a credible profession of faith. therefore the ancient church was wont by catechists , to prepare them to understand , the doctrine which they were to believe , and profess . this is past controversie . i think no minister would take that mans profession , that seemeth not to understand what he saith . 2. no profession is credible , but that which is , or seems to be serious . he that speaks in scorn , or jest , is not to be believed , as one that speaks his mind ; nor is it to pass for a profession . 3. no profession is credible or sufficient , but that which is , or seems to be free and voluntary . though some force , or outward urgencies in some cases may help to incline the will , yet willing it must be ; or it is not a credible profession . he that professeth himself a christian , when a sword or pistol is at his brest , is not to be credited , if he continue it not when he is free . and also that which is done in a meer passion without deliberation , is not to be taken as the act of the man , and a true expression of the bent of his mind ; unless he afterwards stand to it upon deliberation . 4. it must be a profession not nullified by a contradiction in word or deed . though their may an obscure contradiction , not understood , consist with it ; or a contradiction only in degree ; as lord i believe , help thou my unbelief : yet there must be no contradiction of the essentials of our profession , that nullifieth it , by shewing that we lie , or speak against the bent of our hearts . if a minister can by contrary words or deeds disprove the profession of the party , he is not to believe it , or accept it . for we are not to believe without evidence of credibility , much less against it . i have given instances of this in the foresaid disputation of sacracrament , pag. 10. 5. when by covenant-breaking , and perfidiousness , or often lying , a man is become come incredible , having forfeited the credit of his word , with wise and charitable men , this man must give us a practical , as well as verbal profession , before we can again admit him , to the priviledges of the church . for though we are not to be so strict , as some old fathers seem to have been , and the novations were , that would not admit such penitents again into the church at all , but leave them to gods own judgment ; yet must we not go against reason and scripture , and the nature of the thing , in believing that which is not to be believed ; nor to cast by all order and discipline , and prostitute gods ordinances to the lusts of men , and make them a scorn , or level the church of christ with the world . the testimonies cited by me on another occasion , in the foresaid disputations , shew the judgment of protestants in these points , and somewhat of the judgment of antiquity . i shall recite but those on the title page of the third disputation . tertullian apologet. cap. 16. sed dices etiam de n●stris , excedere quosdam à regulis disciplinae . desi●unt tum christiani haberi penes res : philosophi verò illi cum talibus factis , in nomine & honore sapientiae perseverant : that is , but you 'l say , that even of ours , some swarve from ( or forsake ) the rules of discipline . answ . they cease then to be counted christians with us : but your philosophers with such deeds , do keep the name and honour of wisdom . the judgment of the french professours at saumours , you have in these words , thes . salmuriens . vol. 3. pag. 39. thes . 39. sacramenta non conferuntur nisi iis , qui vel findem habent vel salt●m eam praese ferant , adeò ut nullis certis argumentis compertum esse possit , eam esse ●mentitam : that is , sacraments are conferred on none , but these that either have faith , or at least pretend ( or profess ) to have it , so that it cannot by any certain arguments be proved to be feigned . the judgment of the scottish divines , may be much discovered in these two testimonies following : gillespie , aaron's rod blossoming , pag. 514. [ i believe no consciencious minister would adventure to baptise one ; who hath manifest and infallible signs of unregeneration . sure we cannot be answerable to god , if we should minister baptism , to a man whose works and words , do manifestly declare him to be an unregenerated , unconverted person . and if we may not initiate such a one , how shall we bring him to the lords table . ] rutherford , due right of presbyteries , pag. 231. n. 2. but saith robinson , most of england , are ignorant of the first rudiments and foundations of religion ; and therefore cannot be a church . answ . such are materially not the visible church , and have not a profession ; and are to be taught ; and if they will fully remain in that darkness , are to be cast out . if you would have the testimonies of protestants , you may read above threescore of them , expressly maintaining that it is a profession of saving faith that is prerequisite to to our right of sacraments , cited in my forementioned disputation second . to which i adde 33. more , cited to a like purpose in my fift disputation of sacraments : and to these adde the large testimony of davenant , with his many arguments , on colos . 1. vers . 18. too large to recite . and for the later sort of episcopal divines , that they also agree in the same , i will satisfie you from an eminent man among them , mr herbert thorndike , in his discourse of the right of the church , pag. 31 , 32. where he saith [ and hereby we see how binding and loosing sinnes , is attributed to the keyes of the church : which being made a visible society , by the power of holding assemblies , to which no man is to be admitted , till there be just presumption , that he is of the heavenly jerusalem , that is above . ] i shall adde more from him anon . somewhat i have elswhere cited , of the fathers judgments in this point , and more anon i shall have occasion to produce . but in a point that we are agreed on ( that is not every profession , but only a credible profession of true christianity , even of faith and repentance , that must be taken as satisfactory by the church ) i hope i may spare any further proof . prop. 7. the profession of those that expect the church-sttate and priviledges of the adult is to be tried , judged , and approved by the pastours of the church , to whose office it is that this belongeth . this proposition hath two parts : 1. that it is not a profession untryed , and unapproved , that must serve the turn . 2. that the trying and approving of it , belongeth to the office of the pastours of the church . the first is grounded by almost all christians that i know of , and therefore need not may words . 1. if every man should be the sole judge of the soundness , and validity of his own profession , then hereticks , and heathens , and infidels may all croud into the church : for when there is any outward advantage , or other common motive to induce them to it , they would all joyn with the church : as if they were christians . and we see that it is the custom of hereticks to intrude : and who shall say to any of them , why do you so , if themselves are the only judges ? we meet daily among our own neighbours , with abundance that know not whether christ be god or man ; nor who he is , nor what he hath done for us , nor why he came into the world , and are ignorant of almost all the essentials of the christian faith ; and with abundance more that live in common drunkenness , scorning at holy duties , and at a godly life , and hating those that use it , and giving up themselves wholly to the flesh , and the world : and yet all these men are so confident of the soundness , and validity of their own profession , that they will hate that minister , that shall make any question of their right to the priviledges of the church . i speak not by hearsay , or conjecture , but by sad experience . and if they be their own judges , all these will be approved , and admitted ; and indeed , what man would not be admitted where christianity is in credit , or hath any worldly advantages ? so that it 's certain , that this would pluck up the hedg , and lay open the vineyard of christ unto the wilderness . for self-love is such a powerfull blinding thing , that it will make every man almost , especially of the worser sort , approve of that which is their own. 2. if every man should be the sole judge of his own , profession , and fitness for church priviledges , then there could be no communion of saints : for all the most ignorant and impious persons , would intrude into our communion ; and it would be a communion not only of actual , but of professed impious men . but the consequent is intollerable , as being contrary to an article of our belief , and a principal part of christian practice . 3. if each man , were the only judge of his own profession , then there could be no exercise of church discipline , nor keeping , or casting out the wicked : but the consequent is unsufferable : therefore . 4. if each man be the only judge of his own profession , then the church is an unguided , ungoverned society : but the consequent is false ; therefore so is the antecedent . 2. and now i prove that it belongeth to the office of the ministers to judge of , and approve , the profession of such as expect admission , or the priveledges of the church . 1. if persons are not the sole judges themselves , then it must belong to the minister to judge : but the antecedent is before proved : the consequence is proved thus : it must belong either to the pastours , or the magistrate only , or the people only ; or to all , or some of these conjunctly . not to the magistrate only : for 1. no man that i know of affirmeth it . 2. it is another mans office . not to the people only : for 1. none that i know of affirmeth this , they all include the pastours . 2. as i said , it is made part of the pastours office . if you say that it belongs to magistrates , people , and pastours jointly , then you include the pastours : and i grant that in some sort it belongs to them , but in a different sort , as i shall tell you under the next proposition . 2 it is to ministers as such that the keys of the kingdom of heaven are committed : but to approve of the profession of such as are to be admitted into the church , or to its priviledges , is part of the exercise of the key 's of the kingdom : therefore it is ministers , to whom it belongeth thus to judge and approve . i have proved in another place , ( and so have many others , more at large ) that the key 's were not given to peter , or to the apostles , as to private men , for so they were not ; nor as to a church of private christians ; for so they were not , nor the representatives of any such : nor yet as to apostles only ; for then they should have belonged to none but themselves ; the contrary whereof is certain : nor as to fixed diocesan bishops ; for such they were not : and it 's generally granted that the key 's belong also to presbyters , either wholly , or the chief of them , and particularly , that in question : nor yet were the key 's given them only as a synod , or presbyterie ; for peter was not such : and this in question hath ever been exercised by such ministers . arg. 3. the rulers of the church are the lawful judges , or approvers of the profession of those that come into the church , or demand the priviledges of it : but it is the ministers of christ , that are the rulers of the church , as is exprest , 1 thes . 12. acts 2. 28. heb. 13. 7. & 17. 24. 1 tim. 5. 17. therefore . arg. 4. those that are by office the stewards of the mysteries of god , and rulers over his houshould , to give them meat in due season , which they must do as faithfull and wise servants , till their lord cometh ; are the men that must judge of , and approve the qualifications of those that come under their stewardship , government , and administration , of these mysteries . but such are the ministers of christ , 1 cor. 4. 1. matth. 24. 45 , 46 , 47. therefore . arg. 5. to whom it belongeth , to receive men at age into the church ; to restore by absolution , them that fell off , and to administer christ's ordinances to those that are within ; to them doth it belong to try , judge , and approve of them , that are to be thus received , absolved , or that expect the priviledges of the church : but it belongeth to christ's ministers to receive men , absolve them , and administer the ordinances to them : therefore . the antecedent is commonly granted , and plain in scripture . the consequence hath reason so evident , as needs no confirmation . arg. 6. if all that enter into the church , or that are restored by asolution , or are stated in a right to church priviledges of the adult , are therewithall engaged into a mutual , voluntary relation to christs ministers , then must their profession be judged of & approved by christs ministers : but the antecedent is certain : therefore so is the consequent . the antecedent is cleare , because 1. all that enter into the universal church , do enter under the hand of the ministerie , and thereby acknowledg their relation to them , and authority to admit them . 2. because all such do engage themselves to be christs disciples , and learn of him as their master , not as coming down from heaven , to teach them personally , but as teaching them by his word , spirit , and ministers conjunctly , saying ( luke 10 16 ) he that heareth you , heareth me , and he that despiseth you , despiseth me . 3. because they all engage themselves to take christ for their king , who ruleth them by his laws and officers ; and his ministers are his ruling officers , 1 tim. 5. 17. heb. 12. 7. & 17. 24. 1 thes . 5. 12. 4. because they are all engaged to take christ for the great high priest of the church , who hath appointed his ministers , to officiate under him , in leading them in publike worship of the church ; and in offering up the praises of god , and blessing the people , and praying for them and celeberating the commemoration , and representation of christs sacrifice on the cross . 5. because they that enter into a particular church , where only the constant stated use of holy ordinances , and priviledges , are to be had , ( though occasionally elswhere ) do enter into a relation to the pastours of that particular church ; as members of their flock and church ; whom they must oversee , and watch over : all this is past controversie . and then for the consequent of the major proposition ( that therefore ministers must approve of their profession ) i prove it thus . ministers are naturally free-men , as well as others : and therefore no man can become a member of their charge , and put them upon so great duty as the relation doth require , against their wils , without their consent , and contrary to their judgment , and consciences . it is an exceeding great burden that lieth on us , and a great deal of work that is required of us , to each particular soul : in our charge we must exhort , instruct , admonish , in season , and out of season , publikly , and privately , and watch over , and govern them , visit them in sickness , comfort , strengthen them , &c. o what a mountain lieth on me , and how should i bear it , if god did not support me ? and if every man that will , shall make me more work , and put himself under my care , without my consent , then i am so far from being a free-man , as all other are , that i am enslaved , and undone in slavery for 1. they may oppress me when they will with number ; and so many may flock in to my charge , in despight of me , as shall nullifie the particular church , and by the magnitude make it another thing , by making it uncapable of its ends , 2. and hereby they may force me to leave undone my duty , both to them and others , by oppressing me with work : for when i have ten times more then i can teach and oversee , i must needs neglect them ▪ all or most . 3. and they may abuse the church , and me with the evil qualities , as well as the excessive quantity of members ; and we shall be obliged to give that which is holy to dogs , and to use those as church members , that are enemies to the church ; and to administrate sacraments to any , that will have them , how unfit soever ; and to prophane all gods ordinances , and turn them to a lie . 4. and by this means , the church will be utterly ruined , and made a den of thieves , and a stie of swine : for besides that all the worst may at pleasure be members of it , all men that are faithfull , ( or most at least ) will runne away from the ministry , and sooner turn chimny sweepers then pastours . for what man dare venture his soul on so great a charge , for which he knows he must give an account , when he is certain to leave undone the work of his office , in so great a measure , and when he knows he may be thus opprest in soul and body , and so undone by wicked men , when ever they please : yea , if they purposely do it to despight him . arg. 7. that which belongeth to all other superiors , in voluntary relations , is , not to be denied to ministers in theirs : but a free consent , and approbation of them , that they are related to , belongs to all other superior , voluntary relations : therefore to us . a schoolmaster , is to approve the capacity of his schollars ; and a physician is to judge of the fitness of a person to be his patient , and his fitness for this or that medicine in particular . not only a master would take it ill , if he may not have the approbation of his own servants , but have as many , and as bad thrust on him , as shall please ; but a husband would think it hard , if he might not have the approbation , and choice of his own wife , but that any might force him to take them that they please . and are the pastour of christs church , the only slaves on earth ? how improbable a thing is this ? arg. 8. that relation which must be rationally , regularly , and faithfully managed , must be rationally , regularly , and freely entered ( for otherwise we cannot so manage it ) but the relation of a minister to each member of his charge must be thus managed : therefore . arg. 9. it is plainly exprest in the ministers commission , that he is to approve of the profession of disciples : therefore it belongeth to his office , matth. 28. 19. go disciple all nations , baptizing them — teaching them to observe all things — which plainly manifesteth , that it 's they that must judge , when a man is made a disciple , and when not , or else how can they either baptize them as such , or teach them the precepts of christ as such ? so when he giveth to his servants the key 's of the kingdom , matth. 18 , &c. it sheweth that they are to judge who is to be admitted , and who not , as is aforesaid : or else he would never have set them at the door , and made them the porters , and key-bearers of his church , to let men in . arg. 10. no man in the administration of holy ordinances , is ordinarily to renounce his own reason and conscience , and to act against them . but thus it would be if we have not the approving of the profession , or qualification of those that we must administer them to : therefore — he that is to execute here is to judge : for 1. else you will force ministers to go against their reason , and conscience in all administrations . 2. you will deny them so much as judicium discretionis , which you allow to every christian , much more judicium directionis , which belongeth to their office. every man must judge and understand what he doth , and why he doth it : you will not force the people to participate of sacraments , against their consciences . why then should ministers be forced to give them against their consciences ? administring is their work : and therefore they must know why they do it , and on what grounds : else you will make them but like hangmen , or worse , if they must do execution against their judgments , because it is anothers judgment . and whose judgment is it , that we must follow , when we go against our own ? arg. 11. if it belong to christ , to pass an open approbation , of the qualification of such as are to be admitted into his church , or to his special ordinances , or church priviledges , then doth it belong to the ministers of christ , as his instruments : but it doth belong to christ . 1. for all that enter either into an infant , or adult church-state , do joyn themselves into a neer relation to christ : and will christ have men married to him , and made his children , and members , and servants , without his approbation of them , or against his particular will ? 2. all that thus come into the church , or are restored , and claim church-priviledges , do expect , and claime the benefits of christ , and the greatest benifits in the world . and shall any man have christs great , and precious benefits against his will , and without his approbation ? it may be you 'l say , that he hath already expressed his consent in the free promise of the gospel , to all believers . i answer : he hath so to believers : but he hath done it only to believers , and he hath not said in the gospel that you are a believer . object . but it 's sufficient , that my own conscience beare me witnes . i answer , it is so , as to all matters of conscience , that are to be transacted only between god and you , as about your justification , and glorification , &c. ( and yet in this case , ministerial absolution is a great means to help the peace of your consciences . ) but where the minister hath to do with you , by administrations , and the church hath to do with you in the way of communion , there they must know what they do , and why , and must have some expression , of what you say your conscience testifieth to you . and the consequence of the major is plain , ( that if it belongs thus to christ to approve , then it belongs to his ministers , ) 1. because he appointeth not personally on earth , nor useth , or approveth any other way , to signifie his own approbation of you in particular , for a church-state , and priviledges . 2. because he hath expresly intrusted his ministers with this power , as to speak to men in christs stead , 2 cor. 5. 19. so to espouse them to christ their husband , that we may present them a chast virgin to christ , 2 cor. 11. 2. yea , and hereupon they are to give up themselves to the lord first , and to us by the will of god , 2 cor. 8. 5. christs ministers are his agents , or embassadours , as to solicite men in his name to be reconciled to him , so to approve them in his name , and tell them that he is reconciled to them . and therefore they are to deliver himself , his body , and blood , in his name to them in the lords supper ; and to bind , and loose in his name ; and whatsoever they loose on earth , ( according to his promise ) shall be loosed in heaven : so much of his work doth christ by his officers . and even mens first faith is a believing the preacher , and christ by them , acts 8. 12. they believed philip preaching , &c. arg. 12. to whomsoever the labour belongeth , to them the power of doing it belongeth : but it is to ministers that the labour of trying and judging of such professions , and qualifications , belongeth ; therefore it is to ministers , that the power belongeth . the major is undoubted : for else we must be bound by god , to do that which we have no power ( or authority ) to do , and others must have power to do it , and not be bound to it , which are both senseless . the minor i prove . 1. from the frequent commands of scripture , that lay this burden on the ministers , but not magistrates or people . ( in the way that 's now in question ) all the directions , and canons which paul giveth to timothy , titus ▪ to the elders of ephesus , acts 20. and other pastours , together with the exhortations to performance , and terrible charges given them to be faithfull , do shew that it 's they that must do the work . 2. from common consent : all would have the honour and power : but who besides the pastours would have the work , and care , and severe obligations to perform it ? will magistrates , or all the people undertake it , to try , and judge of the professions of every man that enters upon adult church-membership , or priviledges , of such as are to be restored ? they that will undertake this work must attend it , and give themselves wholly to it , and conferre with the persons , and do so much work as our people would be hardly brought to do ( if they were able ) it 's unexperienced rashness , and perversness , that makes them so jealous of the ministers power in such cases , and some of them to reproach us for it . ah blind unthankful souls ! do you know what the ministry and this power is ? it is a power to be the servants of all ; a power to spend and be spent , even for the unthankfull . it 's a power to do the most toylsome , and displeasing work to flesh and blood , one of them in the world ; such as flesh calls a very drudgery . i profess unfeignedly that i● god had left it to my choice , and i should consult with flesh and blood , i had rather preach twice or thrice a week for nothing , and do no more , then to have this power ( a duty of judging and governing this one parish , though i had for it many hundred pounds a year . nothing doth bring so much trouble upon us , as that power which unthankfull persons scorn at . i had rather , if i might consult with flesh and blood , be advanced to the power , of holding or driving plow for you , if not of sweeping your streets . ( though yet because of gods interest , and the ends of the work , i count it the happiest life in the world . ) and do you grudg us such a power as this ? would you grudg me the power of threshing your corn ? or will you grudg a physician the power of judging of your disease , and the remedy , to save your life ? or a school master the power of examining , and teaching your children ? do the work , and take the power , if you are able , and can go through with it , and spare not . arg. 13. it is only the ministers of christ , that are able and capable to receive the power , and do the work : and therefore it is they only that have authority thereto . nothing but the antecedent needs proofe . and that i prove by three several enablements , which ministers have , and others wa●t . 1. ministers only have ability of mind , for the work of this tryal , and approbation . here i speak of them ordinarily , and i have these grounds for it . 1. god hath commanded that the most knowing , able , faithfull , holy men , shall be destinated to this work , 1 tim. 3. tit. 1. &c. and therefore it is supposed that usually they are such , or else it 's the shame of the magistrate that should see to it . 2. it 's they only that set themselves a part to the work and study from their youth , for the accomplishments that are requisite , ( unless here and there one of other sorts ) and men are likeliest to be understanding in that , which they have all their daies set themselves to study . 3. we see by experience that they are the most able , unless it be ( alas how few ) here and there a godly studious gentleman , or other person : who are most of them too blame , that they become not ministers , i think . 2. it is only the ministers , who being separated to the gospel and work of god , do lay by all other business , and give themselves wholly to these things . gentlemen , ( much less all the people of the church , ) cannot lay by their callings to attend this business of trying , and judging of mens professions as ministers must do , if they will be faithfull . should private members have so mu●h church governing work as some cut out for them , and should they bear such a burden , as some would lay upon them , under the name of power and priviledges , it would undo them soul or body , or both : they would find time little enough for it in some places , if they all cast off their outward callings . and 3. the pastours only are capable , because of unity . for should the people have this work , as some would have it , the multitude would hinder execution , and they would turn all to wrangling . 1. such bodies move slowly . 2. multitude with that divesity of parts and minds that is among them , would set them by the eares ; and the church would be almost alway in a flame . if every man that is to make profession of his faith , on this or the like occasion , must be tryed and judged by all ; some would approve , and others would disapprove and reject , in most or very many cases . whereas the pastours being single , or not many , and more experienced , and able , and vacant for a full enquiry , have less reason to be partiall injurious , or disagreed . arg. 14. the practice of the apostles , evangelists , and the pastours of christ's church in all ages , doth put us quite out of doubt , that it is not only belonging to the ministerill office , to judge and approve of such professions , but that it is a very great part of that office. john baptist received , and judged of the profession of his penitents , before he did baptize them . the twelve apostles , mat. 10. 13 , 14. were to judge of the worthiness , or unworthiness , of those that they were to abide with , mark 6. 11. who were the judges or approvers of the profession of the 3000 converts , acts. 2. 41. but the apostles that baptized them , or judged them to be baptized ? who else approved of all the believers that were added , acts 5. 14. even multitudes both of men and women ? they that continued in the apostles doctrine and fellowship , ( acts 2. 42. ) and under their government , no doubt entered at first under their cond●ct . philip was the judge of the eunuch's profession , acts 8. 37 , 38. ananias was scrupulous of admitting paul , but as god himselfe approved of him to ananias ( acts 9. 13 , 14 , 15. ) so a●anias also must ministerially approve him ( vers . 17. ) who judged of lidia's profession , and the jaylours , ( acts 16 ) but the apostles , or other ministers of christ ? what need we instance any more , when we all know , that no convert entered at age into the church , but under the hand of some minister of christ , that did baptize him , or appoint him to be baptized . object . but this is not our case , for we were baptized in infancy , and are in the church already . answ . you entred not into the number of adult and more perfect members in your infancy ; nor did you make any personal profession in your infancy : that 's yet to be done . your parents profession will serve you no longer then your infant state . these being not in the gospel church before , were at once baptized , and entered thereby into the number of the adult members . so would we do if we converted those that were the seed of heathens or infidels . but though this be not your case in respect of baptism , and an insant church-state , yet this is your own case in regard of personal profession , and adult church-state . if the ministers of christ in scripture time , admitted none into an adult church-state , and to the priviledges of such , but upon a personal profession , approved by the said ministers , then neither must we do so now . but the antecedent is past doubt : therefore . — the reasons of the consequence is , because the scripture is our rule , and the reasons of the cases are the same . if you say with the anabaptists , that i may as well argue from the apostles example , for the baptizing of the aged : i answer so i will , when the case is the same : when they are converted from infidelity , or are not born and baptized into the gospel-church before : the apostles did not baptize at age , any person that was born of believing parents in the gospel-church , after baptism was instituted . as to them that say , that mary was a christian , and yet christ was not baptized till full age. i answer , 1. that mary was not a baptized person : 2. that baptism into the name of father , sonne , and holy ghost , was not instituted in christs infancy : how should he be baptized in infancy , when there was no such ordinance of god in the world , as gospel-baptism , or johns baptism ? if you think baptism , and profession , or church-membership so inseparable , that we must not require such a profession , but in order to baptism . 1. you speak without proof . 2. you speak even contrary to the experience of the jewish church : where in the wilderniss , circumcision was separated from profession , and church-membership , both of infants , and adult , the later being without the former . 3. if we may be baptized in infancy , without a personal profession , then they are separable : but the antecedent is proved in due place . 4. no man denieth that i know of , but that personal profession approved by the ministers , is necessary in several cases , after baptism . but all the examples of the baptized adult in the new testament , will fully prove , that all men should enter into the state and number of adult church-members , upon a personal profession approved by the ministers of christ : for so did all in the scripture terms , on reasons common to them and us : and no man can put by the obligation of the example , by any pretence of an imparity of reason , but what will be as strong to evacuate almost all scripture example , and much of the commands . but as to the baptizing persons at age , we will do the same , when the persons are such , as the apostles baptized : aud that they baptized none others , was never yet proved ; but more said for the affirmative . and ever since the apostles daies , it hath been the constant practice of the church , that the profession , and claim of the adult should be tried by the ministers of christ . 1. in case of infant baptism , the minister was to receive and approve the parents profession . 2. in case of the baptism of the aged , they alwaies entred under the tryal , approbation , or hand of the minister . 3. in case of the confirming of those at age , that were baptized in infancy , it was alwaies done under the hand and judgment of the minister . 4. in case of absolution of those that fell after either infant , or adult baptism , it was alwaies upon a profession approved by the minister . to prove these things is vaine , it being the subject of so many canons , and so commonly known , both by record and practice . mr herbert thorndike , in his forcited discourse of the right of the church , is full upon it , pag. 32. he saith , as the power of judging who is , and who is not thus qualified , presupposes a profession , so that an instruction , obliging the obedience of them ; which seek remission of sinnes , by the gospel , and therefore confidently assuring it to them , which conform themselves . in a word , because admitting to , and excluding from the church , is , or ought to be , a just and lawfull presumption of admitting to , or excluding from heaven , ( n. b. ) it is morally and legally the same act , that entitleth to heaven , and to the church ; that maketh an heir of life everlasting , and a c●ristian ; because he that obeyeth the church , in submitting to the gospel , is as certainly a member of the invisible , as of the visible church . you see here in his judgment , both what kind of profession it must be , and who is the judge of it ( of which he is more large . ) and surely they that see confirmation , and penance , or absolution , grown up to the reputation of proper sacraments , and understandeth how they came to it , will never question whether the universal church , hath still taken the pastours for the lawfull judges , and approvers of that confession , and profession , which in such cases was requisite . and that it was a profession , both of saving faith , and repentance , that was expected by the church ; which the pastours were to judge of : i mentioned some plain testimonies of antiquity . apol. pag. 95. to which i shall adde some more . justin martyr , apolog. 2. expressing how baptism was then admitted to the adult , saith , as many as being perswaded , do believe these things to be true which we teach , and do promise to live according to them , they first learn , by prayer and fasting , to beg pardon of god , for their former sinnes , our selves also joyning our prayer and fasting : then they are brought to the water , and born againe , in the same way as we our selves were born againe . and of the lords supper he saith , this food we call the eucharist , to which no man is admitted , but he that believeth the truth of our doctrine , being washed in the laver of regegeneration , for remission of sinne , and that so liveth as christ hath taught . nazianzen . orat. 40 vol. 1. pag. basil's words , and many more to the like purpose , there recited i forbeare . and that a man baptized , is not so much as to be taken for a christian , if by word or deed he nullifie that profession ( much more when he never made a personal profession , when he is at age ) the ancients commonmonly agree . some i cited before : tertullian again saith , apol. cap. 44. speaking of the jaylor ▪ nemo illic christianus , nisi plane tantum christianus ; aut se & aliud , jam nox christianus . athenagoras , in legat. pro christ . pag. 3. nullus christianus malus est nisi haut professionem simulaverit . damascene orthodox . fid . lib. 4. cap. 11. pag. 303. qui enim secundum traditionem catholicae ecclesiae credit , sed communicat operibus diabolo , infidelis est . salvian . de gubern . lib. 4. in the begining : nam cum hoc sit hominis christiani fides , fideliter christi mandata servare , fit absque dubio ut nec fidem habeat qui infidelis est , nec christum credat qui christi mandata conculcat . ac per hoc totum in id revolvitur , ut qui christiani nominis opus non agit , christianus non esse videa●ur . nomen enim sine actu atque officio suo nihil est . cyprian , de dupl . mart. frustra miscetur caetui sanctorum , in templo manufacto , si submotus est ab universo corpore mystico christi . august . de baptis . cont . donatist . lib. 4 . cap . etcap . 4. in corpore unica columbae , nec heretici , nec improbi nominantur . see the like passages of the ancient schoolmen , cited by davenant in colos . 1. 18. pag. 118. and thus i have shewed you the necessity of a profession , and of what sort of profession , and that the pastours of the church are by office appointed by christ , to try , approve , and receive it . prop. 8. though it belong to the pastours office to judge of the profession of such expectants , yet are they bound up by the laws of christ , what profession to accept , and what to refuse : and if by breaking these laws they shall dangerously , or grosly wrong the church : it belongeth to the magistrate to correct them , and to the people to admonish them , and disown their sinne . in summe , as is aforesaid , it is a credible profession of true christianity , which they must accept . and as that which seemeth not to be understanding , and serious , and voluntary , and deliberate , is not credible ; nor that which is nullified by verbal , or actual contradiction ; nor that which is made by one that hath forfeited the credit of his word ; so on the other side , a credible mans profession is his title-condition , in the judgment of the church , or that evidence of the condition that we must take up with : and if a man produce the positive evidence of his title , we must be able to disprove , and invalidate it , before we reject him : so that it is a profession of true christanity , which we cannot prove to be false , at least by a violent presumption , ( as the lawyers speak ) which we must accept . by this it appears , 1. that a grosly ignorant person , that knoweth not the essentials of christianity , is not to be taken for a professed christian . for tryal of such , the ordinance of parliament , of october 20. 1645. doth give us satisfaction ( recited in the form of church government , of march 29. 1648. ) 2. nor one that denieth any of the said essentials heretically . 3. nor one that speaketh ludicrously , and jestingly . 4. nor one that speaks in a passion , not deliberatly . 5. nor one that is manifestly forced and unwilling . 6. nor one that saith and unsaith . 7. nor one whose life doth prove his profession to be incredible . 8. nor one that hath perfidiously been a breaker of covenant with god already , till his reformed life shall recover the credit of his word . so that with a credible person , his bare profession is evidence fefore the church of his right ; and we must prove him a lyar , or false in his profession , before we can reject him . but a man that hath been wicked , after open covenanting with god , or profession of christianity , hath forfeited his credit , and therefore must shew us a new life , as well as a verbal profession , before he is to be restored to his priviledges . in the first case ( with a credible person ) we must prove his profession false , before we reject him : but in the second case ( with an incredible person ) he must evidence his profession to be true , by probable evidences , that shall make it credible . if i thought that the very light and law of nature , joyned with the known general rules of scripture , did not put this past controversie , with most judicious christians , i should stand to prove all this by parts . but on the other side , it is hence manifest , 1. that the pastours of the church , must refuse no man that hath the least degree of grace , or makes a credible profession of the least . 2. and that we must nor require as a matter of necessity , such ●ipe , or clear , and judicious expressions , from the ignorant , bashful , or such , as for want of use and good breeding , are unable to express their minds , as we may from others . if a man , or woman be unable in good sence to express their faith , in the very essentials , or to reveale the grace of god within them : yet if upon our interrogations , and helping them , they can do it in any intelligible manner , so that we do but perceive that it is a sound profession in the essentials , which they meane , though they cannot handsomly utter it , we may not reject any such as these . 3. note also , that defects in knowledg must be indeed exceeding gross . , where the person is willing to be taught , and ruled by christ , and use his means , and thus seems to love god , and holiness , before they will warrant us to reject them . should the judgments of such persons seem unacquainted with some fundamentals , about the trinity , and the like mysteries , i should search them better , and i should plainly tell them presently of the truth , and if they received information , i should not reject a willing soul. the very apostles of christ had the sacrament administred to them by himself , when they did not understand and believe , the death and resurrection of christ . i know that this will not warrant us to give such persons the eucharist now ; because that those great truths were not then of such great necessity , as after christs death and resurrection they did become ; as being not so fully revealed , nor the actual belief of them so peremptorily imposed . but yet it shews us this much , that even in persons admitted to the lords supper , if there be but a belief in god the father , sonne , and holy ghost , and the points of absolute necessity , ( though in rude and unperfect conception ) and a love to christ , and a willingness to learn of him , and obey him , a great deale of lamentable ignorance may be born with , in those that have wanted either means of knowledg , and clear discoveries of the truth , or natural ripeness of understanding to receive it . you see then that pastours are not arbitrary , nor meerly left to their own wills . prop. 9. it is most evident that ministers , people , and magistrates , have each a power of judging ; but different , as they have different works . 2. vvhen the question is , to whom the sacraments , and other ordinances , and church-relations , and priviledges are to be ministerially deliverd as from christ , and to whom not ? here the ministers of christ are the judges . and so are they , when the question is , whom must we teach , direct , and perswade , and in christs name command the people to avoid , or to hold communion with ? for those two are our own work in the execution . and if either magistrate , people , or any other must be judge , where ministers must execute and work ; then 1. we have not that common judicium discretionis to guide our own actions , which is allowed , and necessary to every christian . 2. then the rulers of the church , are not only degraded , and made no rulers , but are put into that slavery , and subjection to them , that are commanded to obey them , which no pastour must desire the people , or any one of them to be in . for we must not deny them a judgment of discretion , about their own actions . 3. and by this course , ministers that are the eies of the body , must not only be guided by other parts , but they must execute against their own knowledg , and conscience , when other men miss-judge . 4. and if so , either god commandeth us to sinne , when ever people , or magistrates bid us , ( which none dare say ) or else it is no sinne , when it doth but get their vote : and so we may warrantably do what the magistrate bids us , ( as hobbs thinks ) or what the people bids us , ( as others as unreasonably think ) as if it would be a sufficient excuse for me , to say , lord i did what the magistrate , or the major vote of the people bid me , though it was that which thou forbidest . 5. if the people have no such power over one another , then they have none over their rulers or guides : but they have none such over one another . indeed in order to unity , a major vote may ( not effectually oblige ) but occasion an obligation : but as to government , let them shew us if they can from scripture , where the major vote of a church hath the government of the lesser part , or that the lesser may go against their own judgment , and conscience , meerly because the greater part requireth it . this governing vote , is as strange a thing to the scripture as a pope is . 6. pastours , or general u●fixed ministers , may receive persons into the vniversal church sometime , without receiving them into any particular church : and what have any people there to do with the tryal , or approbation of their profession or qualifications ? one can lay no more claim to it then another . and sure all the world must not have the tryal of them . 7. what people did philip advise with before he baptized the eunuch ? or who but philip alone was judge of his profession ? what vote approved of the 3000 converts , acts 2 or of paul , acts 9. or of lydia , or the gaoler , acts 16. or any other that ever were admitted by the ministers of christ in scripture times . and what magistrates were the approvers for 300 years after christ ? no nor after . 8. if in this part of our office we must obey men , against god ( whether magistrate or people ) then in other parts : and so if the vote of the church , or magistrate , forbid me to pray or preach against pride , covetousness or drunkenness , i must obey them , that is , i must obey men before god , and please men , and be no longer the minister of christ . 9. what can be more plainly contrary to scripture , then for the people by a major vote , to rule those whom god commandeth to obey , as their rulers ? heb. 13. 7. & 17. 24. 1. tim. 5. 17. 1 thes . 5. 12. acts 20 , &c. object . pastours have but a ministerial ruling power . answ . who doubts of that ? but is a ministerial rule no rule ? no man on earth hath more then a ministerial power : for all are under god , and the redeemer . all judges , justices , and other officers in the commonwealth , have but a ministerial rule as officers : but is that no rule ? or shall the people therefore rule these rulers ? we are christs ministers for the people : we are their 's finally , but have our power from christ only efficiently . if the people are the rulers , who are the ruled ? it 's a strange society , when the ruling , and ruled part is the same ; where all the body is a head and an eye . 10. if people or magistrates will oblige the ministers by their power , whom they shall baptize , confirm , or absolve , and what profession they shall accept ; then must the people and magistrates undertake to answer it before god , and to bear all the blam , and punishment , if we miscarry in obedience to them . and truly if they dare undertake this , we should gladly accept of the condition , with a thousand thankes , if we could but be sure that god would give us leave , and thus acquit us , and accept of our service on these terms . o then how easy a thing were it to obey , rather then to rule . so much for the power of the ministers in this ( and other such like ) worke . 2. when the question is , whether such a professor be fit for our own communion or not , and whether it be our duty to avoid him or not , then the people have a judgment of discretion : not a governing judgment , as the pastours have ; but a judgment that must be the immediate guide of their actions . yet this is to be thus exercised : they are to look to gods word as the rule , and to trust that with a divine faith : they are also to look at the judgment and directions of the pastours , that are their authorized guides ; and to trust them as the officers of christ . for the word is their regulating guide ; the pastours are their authorized directing guides ; and their own understandings are their immediate discerning guides . so that they must not be wise in their own conceits , nor leane to their own understanding , without the use of scripture , and ministery ; but use their understandings for the improvement of these . so that if they know not that the postours of the church do mislead them , contrary to the word of god , they cannot deny them obedience ( for the command to obey them is unquestionable . ) or if they have not a grounded strong presumption , or probability of it , they may not suspend their obedience ; but must leave the pastours to the work of their office , and trust them in it , and avoid those whom they reject , and hold communion with those whom they accept , and introduce , confirm , or restore . but in case they know that a pastour leadeth them into sinne , they are not to follow him : and if they have just ground for a strong suspicion of it , they must suspend , and consult with other pastours , and get full information : for christian people are not to be ruled as beasts , but as the children of god ; and must understand what they are required to do , and why , as being free subjects , ( though subjects ) in the kingdom of christ , and to be governed accordingly . 3. when the question is , whether ministers are to be punished for abusing their power , receiving or rejecting men to the injurie of the church , and contrary to the word of god : here the magistrate is the judge . for as forcing , or punishing corporally is his work , so he must be the judge , where he is the executioner , or else he should be forced to go against his own judgment , and to be a meer servile executioner , which were to him an insufferable injury . but here , 1. the magistrate must not give the minister a law to govern the church by ; ( unless the determination of circumstantial appendants ) but must see that we govern it according to the word of god , our only and sufficient rule . 2. and he must not be over busy , nor unnecessarily intermeddle in the works of another office , nor be too confident of his own understanding in the matters of the pastours work , as if he knew better then they . 3. but he must correct or cast out those ministers that will not obey the word of god ; punishing us for breaking the old rule , and not making new rules for us , is their work , so be it , he can procure a better supply ; 4. in this case , if the magistrates judgment be right , he doth his duty , and ministers must obey him : if he erre , he may be guilty of persecution , in hindering good , under pretence of punishing evil . if his errour tend not to the destruction , or great and certain hurt of the church ; the ministers whom he casteth out , are bound to obey him , and give place to others , and bestow their labours , in some other country , or in some other kind at home : but if his errour lead him to destructive persecution , we must passively submit , but not actively , or negatively obey him , but must preach as long as we are able , and do our duty , till by prison , or death he stop us in the exercise . prop. 10. to this ministerial approbation of the profession , and qualification of the expectant , there is to be adjoyned a ministerial investiture , or delivery of the benefit expected . this is the proper work of the ministers of christ . he that is himself in the heavenly glory , hath left his spirit within to draw men to him , and his ministers without , to deliver up the counter-covenant on his part , in his name , and to espouse them to christ , and to accept them in his name , and stead . and this investiture is one of the principal parts of the nature and use of sacraments , which all have not fully considered of . the papists tell us of seven sacraments , baptism , confirmation , pennance , orders , the eucharist , matrimony , and extream unction . calvin sticks not to yield them three . the name sacrament being not in scripture , but of meer ecclesiastik use , and being a word that will stretch , i distinguish between three sorts of sacraments . 1. for any divine institution which notably signifieth spiritual grace : and so ( though i think extream unction none , as being now no duty , yet ) i doubt not but there 's more then seaven . 2. for any solemn investiture of a person by ministerial delivery , in a state of church-priviledges , or some special gospel-mercy . and so i grant that there are five sacraments : baptism , confirmation , absolution , the lords supper , and odination . as a man that delivereth possession of a house , doth deliver the key to him that enters ; and as we are invested in the possession of land , by the delivery of a twig and turfe ; and as ministers were wont to be invested , or have induction into the churches by giving them the books , and the bell-ropes ; and as women were wont to be married with a ring , and as a prince doth knight a man by a sword ; so christ by his ministers doth first by baptism invest us in our church-state , and infant-priviledges : and by confirmation , confirm us in our church-state , and invest us with a right to the priviledges of the adult : and by absolution reinvest us in the priviledges that we had forfeited : and by the lords supper deliver to us christ and his benefits , for our ordinary nourishment , and growth in grace : and by ordination he investeth the pardon ordained with ministerial power . 3. but taking the word sacrament in that strictest sence , as our divines define a sacrament , as it is an outward signe of christs institution , for the obsignation of the full covenant of grace , betwixt him and the covenanter , and a delivery , representation , and investiture of the grace , or benefits of that covenant ; thus we have only two sacraments , baptism , and the lords supper . but truly i would not quarrel with them for the meer name , as to the five which i mentioned . prop. 11. the solemn ministerial investiture of professours , into the right of the church priviledges of the adult , is either 1. of the unbaptized , who are now first entered . 2. or of the baptized in infancy , that never proved ungodly , nor violated that first covenant . 3. or of those baptized , whether in infancy or at age , that have since proved wicked , and broke that covenant . the first of these investitures is , to be by baptism ; the second by confirmation ; and the third by absolution . so that the solemn investiture that i am pleading for , is by confirmation to one sort ( that never proved ungodly since their baptism ) and by absolution to the other sort that broke their covenant . the baptism of the adult , we have not now to do with . of those that are baptized in infancy , some do betimes receive the secret seeds of grace , which by the blessing of a holy education , ( and some among the prophane ) is stirring within them , according to their capacity , and working them to god by actual desires , and working them from all known sinne , and entertaining further grace , and turning them into actual acquaintance with christ , as soone as they arrive at full natural capacity : so that they never were actual ungodly persons . to these their investiture in the state of adult-members upon their personal approved profession , is a confirmation of the mutuall covenant that it findeth them under , and of them in that covenant . but there are others ( i doubt the most ) that since their infant baptism , have proved actual wicked ungodly persons ; if not openly flagitious and scandalous , yet at least , unacquainted with any special sanctifying work , till after they attain to the full years of discretion . these break their covenant made with god in baptism , in which they were devoted to him , and engaged to live to him , forsaking the flesh , the world , and the devil . and therefore these must come in as penitents ( even as if they had proved wicked after an adult baptism , they must do : ) and therefore it is first an absolution which they must receive : not only a particular absolution from an act of haynous sinne ( which afterwards may be renewed upon particular penitence ) but a general absolution from a state of sinne . yet this doth consequently participate of the nature of the former , and hath a confirmation in it , or with it : not a confirmation in the wicked state that such have lived in , but a renewal , and solemn confirming of the covenant , between god and them , which in baptism was made . so that to such it is as an absolution and confirmation conjunct . prop. 12. this solemn investiture on personal profession , being thus proved the ordinance of god , for the solemn renewing of the covenant of grace , between god and the adult covenanter , it must needs f●llow , that it is a corroborating ordinance , and that corroborating grace is to be expected in it from god , by all that come to it in sincerity of heart : and so it hath the name of confirmation upon that account also . the papists quarrel with us , and curse us in the counsel of trent , for denying their ends of confirmation , and making it another thing . but they fasly describe our opinion : we do not take it to be a meer catechising , or receiving the catechized to the lords supper , or to a higher form : but we take it to be the approbation of the personal profession of them that claime a title to the church-state , and priviledg of the adult , and an investing them solemnly ther●in , upon the solemn renewal ( and personal adult enterance ) into covenant with god. now in this renewed covenant , as they give up themselves to christ afresh , and personally engage themselves to him , and renounce his enemies , owning their infant-baptism , when this was done by others in their names , so god is ready on his part to bless his own ordinance , with the collation of that corroborating grace , which the nature of the renewed covenant doth import . otherwise god should appoint us means in vain , and fail them in the use of his own ordinances , that use them as he hath appointed : which is not to be imagined : though the unsound h●pocritical receivers may miss of this blessing ; and though as the degrees of coroborating grace , god is free to give it out as he pleaseth . so that the papists shall have no cause to say , that we needlesly , or erroneously do deny either the name of confirmation , or the true use and ends of it , or the notional title of a sacrament to it in a larger ( yet not the largest ) sence . we affect not to fly further from them , then we needs must ; much less to fly from the ancient practice of the universal church : but we must crav● their pardon , if we introduce not their an●ointing ( though ancient ) seeing when i● was used of old but as an indifferent cere●monie , they have turned it now into a proper , necessary sacramental signe : and if we give not the confirmed a boxe on the eare , as they do for a holy signe , or abuse it not as they in many respects , and turne it not into a meer deceiving formality , in this also we must needs crave their pardon . so much of the name , and ends of confirmation . prop. 13. ministerial imposition of hands in confirmation , and the fore-described sort of absolution , is a lawfull , and convenient ceremony , and ordinarily to be used , as it hath been of old by the vniversall church . but yet it is not of such necessity , but that we must dispense in this ceremony with scrupulous consciences , that cannot be satisfied to submit to it . thus must we take heed of both extreams : either of rejecting a ceremony , that hath so much to be said for 〈◊〉 as this hath : or of making it more necessary then it is , to the wrong of tender consciences , that are not yet ripe enough , to be well informed of it , and to answer the objections that they have heard against it ; nor yet to receive your answers . i. for the first part of the proposition , i think it may suffice , 1. that imposition of hands was used in scripture times , and so used , as may invite us to imitation , but not deter us from it at all . 2. and that it hath been since of ordinary use in the universal church , in this very case , so that no other original of it can be found , but apostolical ; yea we have exceeding probable evidence , that the use of it was never interrupted , from the daies of the apostles , down to the reformation . 3. nor is it laid aside in many of the reformed churches . so that you will find that as it 's easie to prove lawful , so it 's more likely to be a divine institution , necessary necessitate praecepti , then to be unlawfull . i shall purposely say the less of it , because mr hanmer hath said so much already as to the judgment of the ancients ; and my intent is to pretermit that part ( or say less to it ) which he hath performed . but that it is lawfull and fit , if not of some necessity , i shall prove by the forementioned evidence . 1. imposition of hands , is allowed in scripture , to be used generally by spiritual superiours , to signifie their will and desire , that the blessing may fall on the inferiour , or the gift , or power be conferred on him , for which they have a call to mediate : so that it is not confined to any particular blessing , power , or ordinance . and therefore if there had been no example of the use of it , in this particular case ( of confirmation , or absolution ) yet hence it is proved to be lawfull and meet , because it hath this general use and allowance . the lifting up of hands in prayer was used to signifie from whom and whence they did expect the blessing ; even from our father which is in heaven : and the laying of hands on the head of the person , in or after prayer , was used as an applicatory signe , to signifie the terminus ad quem of the blessing desired , or the person , on whom they would have it bestowed . and as you will not cast away the use of lifting up of hands , though it be for such mercies , as you read no scripture instance , that hands were lift up for ; because the general warrant is sufficient ; so you have as little reason , to scruple or cast away the laying on of hands , though in such cases as you read not that the sign was used for in scripture ; because the unlimited generall use , is sufficient warrant , in such particular cases . god shewed that the very outward signe of lifting up of the hands , was not to be despised , when ameleck had the better when moses hands fell down , though but through weakness , so that aaron and hur were fain to underset them , exod. 17. and i think we have no reason to contemn the laying on of hands , which in grounds and nature is so neer kin to the other . and as spreading forth the hands , doth not cease to be good and meet , for all that god hath said he will not heare them that spread forth hands that are full of blood , isa . 1. 15. so the laying on of hands doth not cease to be good and meet , though in some cases the blessing do not follow it . still we must every where lift up holy hands in prayer , without wrath and doubting , 1 tim. 2. 8. though the signe be not of absolute necessity in every prayer , yet it is very meet , and too much neglected among us . and so i may say of the other . when solomon prayed in the temple he spread forth his hands towards heaven , 1 king 8. 22. and so he supposed all would do , that lookt to be heard by the god of heaven , when vers . 38. he prayeth for the people thus : what prayer and supplication soever be made by any man , or by all thy people israel , which shall know every man the plague of his own heart ( that was their prayer-book ) and spread forth his hands towards this house , then heare thou in heaven thy dwelling place , and forgive , and doe , &c. see vers . 54. 2 chron. 6. 12 , 13. we must lift up our hearts with our hands to god in the heavens , lam. 3. 41. we must prepare our hearts , and stretch out our hands towards him , job 11. 13. praying to a strange god , is signified by stretching out the hand to him , psal . 44. 20. even in praises the people were to lift up their hands towards heaven , neh. 8. 6. yea and in blessing , lifting up the hands was used to signifie whence the blessing came , luke 24. 50. now this being so commonly applied , the other that is so neer a kin to it , may without scruple be used in any case that that falls under the foredescribed general case . indeed every man must lift up hands , because every man must pray , ( and it is an engagment , that those hands that are lifted up to god , be not used in wicked works : ) but laying on of hands is ordinarily the act of a superiour , to the ends abovesaid . thus jacob , gen. 48. 14 , 15. laid his hands on the son●es of joseph in blessing them . moses laid his hands on joshua , when he ordained him his successour , num. 27. 18 , 23. & deut. 34. 9. yea even in the execution of evil they laid on hands , as an applicatory signe , as in sacrificeing ; as if they should say , not on me , but on this substitute let the evil of punishment be . see levit. 16. 21 , 22. exod. 29. 10 , 15. lev. 4. 15. & 8. 14 , 22. numb . 8. 12. yea in putting a blasphemer and curser to death , they first laid their hands on his head , as an applicatory signe , in whom the fault was , and to whom the punishment did belong , lev. 24. 14. in the ordination , or consecration of the levites , the people were to lay their hands on them , numb 8. 10. not to give them authority , but to consecrate and give them up to god. by laying on of the hands , as an applicatory signe , did christ and his disciples heale diseases , &c. mark 5. 23. where note , that the ruler of the synagogue jairus , took this as an ordinary signe of conferring blessings from a superiour , and therefore he mentioneth it with the blessing desired , mark 6. 5. & 8. 23 , 25. luke 13. 13. & 4. 40. so you may see also the apostles did ; yea , and other believers , as the promise runs , mark 16. 18. acts 28. 8. also by laying on of hands , as an applicatory signe , they invested the seaven deacons in their office , acts 6. 6. and the prophets , and teachers in the church of antioch , separated barnabas and paul , to the work that god appointed them , acts 13. 2 , 3. by fasting , and prayer , and imposition of hands . and timothy received his ministerial gift , by the laying on of pauls hands , and the hands of the presbitery , 1 tim. 4. 14. and 2 tim. 1 6. if this last text be understood of the ministerial ordination and gift , which i rather think is meant of the apostolical imposition of hands , after baptism , for giving of the holy ghost . so that this signe was used upon several occasions , and is not at all forbidden in this , directly , nor indirectly , and therefore it is undoubtedly lawful : seing that without doubt the less is blessed of the greater , heb. 7. 7. and the duty and power of the pastour to bless the person in this case is unquestionable , and this imposition of hands is an allowed signe in blessing , as lifting up the hands is , in praying ; here is scripture enough to prove it lawful , and very meet . 2. but let us enquire yet whether the scripture lay not some kind of obligation on us , to use this ceremony , in confirmation . to which end let these several things be well considered . 1. we find in scripture a blessing of c●urch-members , with laying on of hands . 2. we find in scripture , that the holy ghost is in a special manner promised to believers , over and above that measure of the spirit , which caused them to believe . 3. we find that prayer with laying on of hands , was the outward means to be used by christs ministers , for the procuring of this blessing . 4. we find that this was a fixed ordinance to the church , and not a temporary thing . lay all this together , and you will see as much as my proposition doth affirm . let 's try the proof of it . i. though the proof of the first be not necessary to the main point , yet it somewhat strengtheneth the cause , mark 10. 16. christ took the children up in his armes , put his hands upon them , and blessed them so , math. 19. 15. this is not i confess a confirmation upon personal profession , which i am now pleading for : but this is a benediction by laying on of hands : and the subjects of it were such children as were members at least of the jewish church , being before circumcized . ii. but to come neerer the matter ; let us enquire what this gift of the holy ghost was , that is promised to believers . whatsoever the pelagians say , the scripture assureth us that faith and repentance which go before baptism in the adult , are the gifts of the holy ghost : and yet for all that the holy ghost is to be given afterward . and though very often this after●gift is manifested by tongues , and prophesie , and miracles , yet that is not all that 's meant in the promise of the holy ghost . gad hath not tyed himself by that promise to any one sort of those extraordinary gifts , no nor constantly to give any of them : but he hath promised in general to give believers the spirit : and therefore there is some other standing gift , for which the spirit is promised to all such . and indeed the spirit promised is one , though the gifts are many ; and the many sorts of gifts make not many spirits . if any man therefore shall ask , whether by the promised spirit be meant sanctification , or miracles , or prophesie , &c. i answer with paul , there are diversities of gifts , but the same spirit , as there are differences of administrations , but the same lord , and diversities of operations , but the same god , 1 cor. 12. 4 , 5 , 6. it is therefore no wiser a question to ask , whether by the spirit be meant this gift , or that , when it is only the spirit in general that is promised , then to ask , whether by the lord be meant this or that administration ; and whether by god be meant this or that op●ration . to one is given the word of wisdom by the spir●t , and to another the word of knowledg , by the same spirit , to another faith by the same spirit , &c. vers 8 , 9 , 10. now i confess if any man can prove that this promise of the spirit to the faithfull , is meant only of the extraordinary gift of miracles , then he would weaken the argument that i am about . but i prove that contrary , 1. cor. 12. 12 , 13. it is the gift of the spirit , by which we are one body , which is called christs , by which we are all baptized into this one body ; and such members as have a lively fellow-feeling of each others state , vers . 26. 27. yea such as giveth to the elect , the excellent , durable grace of charity , vers . 31. and chap. 13. gal. 4. 6. and because ye are sonnes , god hath sent forth the spirit of his sonne into your hearts , crying abba , father . note here , that it is not only the gift of miracles , but the spirit of adoption that is here mentioned ; and that it 's given to believers , because they are sonnes . and all the first part of rom. 8. to vers . 29. doth shew , that it is the spirit of adoption , supplication , and that by which we mortifie the flesh , that is given to believers . 2 cor. 1. 21 , 22 now he which stablisheth us with you in christ , and hath anointed us , is god who hath also sealed us , and given the earnest of the spirit in our hearts . it is not the common gifts of the spirit only that are here spoken of , nor is it the first gift of faith , but it is confirmation , or inward establishment in christ , and that spirit , which is the fathers seal upon us , and the earnest of the inheritance . i believe not that it is outward anointing , or sealing with the signe of the cross , that is here mentioned , as many papists dreame ; but inward unction , seal , earnest , and confirmation by the spirit , are here exprest . so 2 cor. 5. 5. zach. 12. 10. it is the spirit of grace and supplication that is promised to the church . and see the pattern in christ our head , on whom after baptism the spirit descended , and to whom it is promised , matth. 12 18. ephes . 1. 13 , 14. in whom also after yee believed , yee were sealed with the holy spirit of promise , which is the earnest of our inheritance . here it 's evident that it 's such a gift of the spirit , which is an earnest of heaven that is given to men , after they believe . joh. 7. 39. for the holy ghost was not yet given them because that jesus was not yet glorisied . yet the apostles had faiththen . and that it is not meant only of the apostles extraordinary gifts of miracles , the foregoeing words shew : he that believeth on me , out of his belly shall flow living waeters : but this he spake of the spirit , which they that believe on him should receive . by all this it is evident , that there was an eminent gift of the holy ghost promised to them that had already the grace of faith , and repentance , and love to christ , wrought in them by the holy ghost ; and that though this eminent gift , did very much consist in gifts of languages , prophesie , and mighty works for the confirmation of christs doctrine which was then to be planted in the world : yet was it not only in those gifts ; but as some had only those common ( though extraordinary ) gifts , for the good of the church ; so some had an eminent addition of special gifts , to seal them up to the day of redemption , and be the earnest of the inheritance , to the saving of the soul. if you ask , wherein these special eminent gifts of the holy ghost do consist , i answer : 1. in a clearer knowledg of christ , and the rsteries of the gospel ; not an uneffectual , but a powerful , affecting , practical knowledge . 2. in a fuller measure of love , agreeable to this knowledg . 3. in joy and peace , and sweet consolation . 4. in establishment , and corroboration , and firmer resolution for christ , and everlasting life . for the understanding of which we must know , that as the doctrine is the means of conveying the spirit , so the spirit given is answerable to the doctrine , and administration that men are under . it 's a very great question whether adam in innocency had the spirit or not ? but as the administration according to the meer light , and law of nature , is eminently in scripture attributed to the father , so adam certainly may be well said to have had the spirit of the father , to enable him with gifts that were answerable to the law that he was under , and the state that he was in : but we cannot fitly say that he had that which the scripture calleth the spirit of the sonne , as not being under the administration of the sonne . but after the promise till the coming of christ , as the administration was mixt of law and promise , nature and grace , as the dawning of the day before sunne rising doth partake of darkness and of light , so the spirit that was then given , was answerable to the administration and doctrine . and therefore as there was somewhat of the gospel in those times , though yet god hath not thought it meet to call it ( at least usually ) by that name , but rather by the name of the promises , and prophecies of christ ; so there was somewhat of the spirit of christ , though it be not usually so called , but when it appeared in some eminent servants of christ , as the prophets were , in whom the spirit of christ is said to have been , 1 pet. 1. 11. now as it was part of that work ascribed to the father , to send and give the sonne , and to give men to the sonne ; so commonly those gifts are ascrbed to him which are cotained in these expressions , and are the accomplishment of this work ; and that not only in the old testament , but in the new : and therefore it is called the giving and the drawing of the father , by which we are brought to believe in the sonne ; though yet the grace of faith is a special saving grace , and not common to the wicked , as the papists dreame , because they find an uneffectual assent to be common . but now , as christ at his coming doth bring to the world a clearer light , and fuller revelation of himself , and the mysteries of redemption , and bring life and immortality to light in the gospel ; and as the rising sunne , dispelleth the remnants of legal darkness , and his doctrine is fully called the gospel , the testament of jesus christ , so answerably he doth by , and with this doctrine , give out such a measure of the spirit , to the church ; as is eminently called the spirit of jesus christ . which carryeth us higher then the first grace of faith and repentance , to those fuller degrees which were not ordinary , no not to the godly in the time of the law. and as this spirit of christ did extrinsecally shine in the glory of tongues and wonderous works , while those were necessary to the church , and christs service ; so both then , and ever after it doth work ( but in various degrees ) for the sanctifying of believers , and conforming their hearts and lives to christ ; in his humiliation , patience , self-denial , meekness , contempt of the world , obedience , &c. till at last we be conformed to him in his glory . iii. i have cleared the second point , ( that there is an eminent gift of the holy ghost to be expected after our first believing , even such as ceased not with miracles : i now come to the third point , which is , that ministerial prayer with laying on of hands , was the scripture-way for the giving of this eminent gift of the spirit . for the understanding of this , observe these things : 1. how sacraments , and investing signes , conferre grace . 2. how the spirit is given in baptisme 3. how far god hath , as it were , tyed himself to ordinances for conferring grace . 4. what proof the scripture yields us of the proposition . 5. what aptitude there is in ministerial confirmation , for the attainment of these ends . 1. we find in scripture , that sacraments are not appointed ( nor to be used , according to the intent of the instituter ) for the conferring of that grace which men have not in any degree already : but they are , 1. partly a solemn investiture in that which before we had a fundamental right to : as the listing of a souldiour , or the solemnization of marriage after a firm contract ; the crowning of a king ; the delivering possession by a key , a twig , or turf ; the knighting a man by a sword , &c. this is as to relative benefits , and right to phycal benefits . 2. and withal they are by actual excitation of grace , to increase the inherent grace received , and so to give us more . all this is evident in baptism it self , where we are to receive both remission of sinnes , with right to everlasting life , and also an increase of grace in the adult : and yet no man at age , is to come to baptism ( to require it ) that is not a penitent believer already , and consequently that hath not the beginning of special saving grace , and somewhat of christ , and the holy ghost ; and title to forgiveness , and everlasting life . for he is under the promise that whoesoever believeth , shall not perish , but have everlasting life : and a papist will grant , that the votum baptismi may serve to his sa●vation , if he die without it . and the case of infants is the same , as to these mercies which are necessary to their state of life . their parents must be believers , before they dedicate them to god , and consequently the child hath the covenant right before it is sealed . and it is ridiculous in the papists to damn all infants , for want of baptism , and not the aged ; and to make the votum to serve for the parent , and yet not for his child , when yet the parents faith must serve to prove his title to baptism it self . but to leave these corrupters , and innovatours ; we see now what is to be expected by confirmation : not that men that have no signes of corroborating grace , should come thither first to receive it ; but that such as appear initially resolved , confirmed , and corroborated , may be ( though not by a full and proper sacrament , yet ) ministerially ; 1. invested into the state of the confirmed , and their priviledges , which is a higher form in the schoole of christ . 2. and may receive yet further confirmation , and corroboration by gods approbation , and ordinance . 2. but hath not baptism done all this already , seeing we are baptized into the name of the holy ghost ? this is our second point to be resolved . i answer , it is a great errour , to think that adult persons that have nothing of the holy ghost , may demand baptism , and that baptism doth not give the holy ghost : but yet it 's one thing to give the holy ghost in relation , and fundamental right , and another thing to give the graces of the spirit ; and it 's one thing to seale and increase the initial , special grace of the spirit , and another thing to invest in a stablishing degree : and so it is evident that baptism , as such is appointed but for the two first : that is , 1. as we must have some faith and repentance , before a person at age may come to baptism , and so must have fundamental right by promise , to christ , and pardon , and life , so this is sealed in baptism , and we are solemnly invested in it , and our grace excited for increase : but it is not requisite that a man have a further degree of grace before he come . 2. in baptism , it is our very relation to god , as our father and god , to christ as our saviour , and to the holy ghost as our sanctifier , that is sealed to us , and we are invested with : which is the foundation of all that afterward from the spirit is given us . as in marriage , the persons in relation , are given to each other for marriage ends ; so in baptism , god the father , sonne , and holy ghost , one god in three persons , are solemnly given to us in relation to themselves , for christian , baptismal ends. but as after marriage , the man takes home his wife , and delivereth her a possession of his house first , and after admits her to bed and board , according to his covenant , so christ doth after baptism , take home the christian into his church , and admit him to the several priviledges of it , in the season , and manner as he seeth meet . so that as all the good that we do after baptism , is but the fulfilling of our baptismal covenant , and yet we did not the good when we covenanted to do it : so all the after-mercies , that god giveth us by promise ( at least ) on his part , are but the fulfilling , or fruits of his baptismal covenant ; and that he did not give them in our baptism . so that confirmation is no full , and proper gospel sacrament as baptism is , but a particular subsequent investiture , in some of the fruits of baptism it self , in the season of them . 3. but have we any certainty , that this ordinance shall prove effectually confirming to us ? if not it will be but an idle , empty ceremony . this is our third question : to which i answer : 1. ordinances are duties , which we must use , and in which we must wait on god for his blessing , if we will have it : and therefore in the way of duty , we must be found . 2. what if you have not a certainty that your prayer shall be granted , will you not therefore pray ? or if you are not certain that a sermon shall profit you , will you not hear it ? or that reading shall profit you , will you not read ? or that the lords supper shall increase your grace ; will you not use it ? 3. but i may say more : if you come prepared , you may be sure of a blessing in some degree : as it is not every one that prayeth , and heareth , and receiveth the lords supper , that shall certainly have the blessing , but the prepared soul that is the subject of the promise , which is annexed to that ordinance ; so it is not every one , that is externally confirmed by prayer , and imposition of lands , that shall be sure of the blessing , but the soul that is prepared , as aforedescribed . 4. but yet the several degrees of blessing , god hath kept in his own hand , and not affixed them by promise to any person , in any ordinance : he may bless the word , prayer , the lords supper , &c. to one true christian more then to another , and yet perform his promise to them all : and so he may this outward confirmation . 3. but what proofe is there in scripture of such an ordinance , or practice ? that 's our fourth question : to which i answer , 1. for the main point in question , it 's already proved , beyond all controversie , viz. the necessity of a personal profession , and covenant , before men be admitted to the church-priviledges of the adult , and that it belongeth to the office of christ's ministers to judge of , and approve this profession , &c. it is none of this that we have now to prove , but only the manner of admisson hereupon , whether it be to be done by prayer with benediction , and imposition of hands : and it is not the lawfulness of this ; for that 's proved before : but whether this manner and solemnity be a thing which ordinarily we should observe ? and that it is so , this seems to me to prove , 1. as beyond controversie it belongeth to spiritual superiours , even the ministers of christ , to pray for the people , and bless them , so this must be in a special manner exercised upon great and special occasion : but the admission of the adult upon their personal covenanting and profession , is a great and special occasion : this is as good an argument as we have for stated family-prayer , that i remember ; and it 's cleerly good for both . 1. i should but trouble you to prove the general part of the major , that it belongeth to the pastours to pray for , and bless the people ministerially . 2. and the application to this season is proved thus ; 1. all things are sanctified by the word and prayer : therefore this . 2. if the great and special works , and changes of our lives , be not thus to be sanctified , much less the smaller ; and so the whole command would be void . we agree , that at marriage , at our investiture in the ministerial office , &c. there must be ministerial prayer , and benediction , usually to sanctifie it to the faithful : but here there is as great , if not greater reason for it , the change and blessing being in some sort greater * . and as this is plain for ministerial prayer and benediction , so it seems that the weight and nature of the work , doth determin us to the signe of imposition of hands , seeing god hath not tyed it to any one or two particular cases , but made it a signe of general use , in spiritual benediction , and collations of authority , from a superiour , or great and special occasions . 2. but we have yet a more clear proof from scripture example , acts 8. 15 , 16 , 17. peter and john were sent to samaria , when they heard that they believed , and when they were come down , they prayed for them , that they might receive the holy ghost ; for as yet he was fallen on none of them : only they were baptized in the name of the lord jesus : then laid they their hands on them , and they received the holy ghost . so acts 19. 5 , 6. when they herad this , they were baptized in the name of the lord jesus : and when paul had laid his hands upon them , the holy ghost came on them , and they spake with tongues , and prophesied . and acts 9. 17. ananias laid his hands on saul ( before converted by a voice from heaven , though not baptized ) that he might receive his sight and the holy ghost at once . and this was the gift that simon magus would have bought with money . and it seemeth to me most probable , that this was the gift that timothy received by laying on of pauls hands ( which being for the service of the church , 1 cor. 12. 7. he was to stirre up , and exercise in his ministry ) 2 tim. 1. 6. and that the laying on of the hands of the presbytery , 1. tim. 4. 14. was at another time . that the holy ghost was then given by prayer , with imposition of hands , is thus evident . iv. but the last point remaineth , whether this were not temporary and now ceased : ( whether i shall take in the fifth particular , before named , about the aptitude of the means now . ) and 1. when i have proved it once appointed , it lyeth on the contrary minded , to prove it changed , or ceased : that 's the task of them that affirm it ceased , if i shew them an obligation once laid , they must prove it taken off . their only argument is , that the persons and occasion were only extraordinary , and are ceased , and therefore so is the signe or means . to which i answer , 1. by denying the antecedent ; both as to persons and occasion : they were not only extraordinary . 2. by the denying the consequence , as it is inferred from the persons : for extraordinary persons were our patterns for ordinary , durable works . but i prove the negative : 1. the use and ends of the ancient imposition of hands do still continue : therefore we are to judge that the signe and means is not to cease . for the proofe of the antecedent , remember that i have before proved , that it was not only ( though very eminently ) the gift of tongues and miracles , that was then meant by the holy ghost that was given , but also corroborating grace . and the necessity and actual collation , and use of this doth still continue . 2. there is still a discernable aptitude in the means to these necessary ends. the baptized believer may yet want the joy of the holy ghost , and boldness of access to god , and the shedding abroad of fuller love in the heart , rom. 5. 5 , and that consolation which is much of the work of the promised spirit , which therefore is called the comforter ; and that corroboration , and stability which he needeth . now to have a messenger of christ that hath received a binding and loosing power , in the name of christ to encourage us in our profession , and to put up solemn prayers for us , and as it were take us by the hand , and place us in the higher form ( at least , to place us at our first personal profession , among adult believers ) and make particular application of the promise to us , and bless us in the name of christ , by virtue of their ministerial office ; this must needs tend much to confirm , and comfort , and encourage the weak . though still further ministerial confirmation by praying , and exhortation will be necessary to the end , acts 14. 22. & 15. 31 , 32. 3. the scripture signifieth to us , that imposition of hands was of standing use in the church , and therefore not to cease with miracles . in heb. 6. 2. we find it named among the parts of the foundation , laying on of hands . now all the doubt is , what impositon of hands is there mentioned . 1. for them that think the apostle meaneth jewish imposition , when he mentioneth the christian foundation points , i think their opinion saveth me the labour of confuting it . 2. either then it is imposition of hands , in case of ordination , or in case of confirmation , or in case of absolution , or for working miraculous cures . the last alone it cannot be , because we find it among foundation points , and find it a continued thing ; and because there is no evidence , to lead us to such a restrained exposition . and if it be in the case of absolution , or ordination , that imposition is to continue , it will by consequence be proved , that it no more ceaseth here then there . and usually they that question the use of it in one case , question it in the rest . 3. for my part , i think that it is no one of these cases alone , that the scripture here speaketh of , but of the power and use of it in general , for the ministers of christ to be his instruments , in conferring evangelical gifts , and power , by imposition of hands . we must not limit , and restrain the sence of scripture , without evident cause . it is as if the apostle had said , you are long agoe taught the necessity of repenting , and forsaking the works of death , and of believing in the true god , and of being dedicated , and engaged to father , sonne , and holy ghost in the baptismal covenant , in which you your selves have been consecrated unto god , and received the remission of sinne ; and you have seen the power that is given to the ministers of christ , that by their prayers , and imposition of hands , miracles have been wrought to confirm their doctrine , and grace is given to confirm the soul , and absolution and peace is given to the penitent , and ministeriall power delivered to others , &c. but however you understand this imposition of hands , without apparent violence , you must confess either imposition in the case that we are speaking of , or that which will warrant it , and stands on the same ground , to be here meant . so 1 tim. 5. 22. lay hands suddenly on no man , neither be partaker of other mens sinnes . some think that here is meant imposition of hands in ordination , and some that it 's meant only of confirmation , and some of absolution ; but however , it will help us in the following argument . 4. scripture fully proveth that laying on of hands , is a thing to be continued to other vses , where the reason of continuance is the same : therefore we are not to judge it ceased as to this use . this text last named , shews that it is a standing , or continued thing ; and if for absolution , then for confirmation ; and if for ordination , then for both the other . so 1 tim. 4. 14. sheweth , that the presbytery did lay hands on timothy in ordination : and if it cease not to this , it ceaseth not to other continuing uses . this much from scripture , for imposition of hands , is more then nothing , though it may not be so full as you expected : but on the contrary , nothing is brought to prove it unlawfull , that 's worth the mentioning . the last thing that i have to do , is to argue from the practice of the church , as the exposition of these texts of scripture . if the universal church of christ have used confirmation by prayer , and laying on of hands , as a practice received from the apostles , and no other beginning of it can be found ; then have we no reason to think the ceremony to be ceased , or to interpret the forementioned scripture , contrary to this practice of the universal church : but the antecedent is true , as i now come briefly to prove , supposing what mr hanmer hath said . it is commonly known , that the ancientest canons of the church do speak of this as the unquestioned practice and duty of the church : so that to recite canons were loss of time in so known a case . and if any say that anointing and crossing were ancient ; i answer , 1. that they were as ancient in the popish use , as the matter of a sacrament , or as necessary signes , is not true , nor proved , but disproved by our writers , against the popish confirmation frequently . 2. nor can it be proved that they were as ancient as indifferent things . 3. we prove the contrary , because they were never used in scripture times , their being no mention of them . 4. so that we bring antiquity but to prove the continuance of a scripture practice , and so to clear the sence of it : but the papists plead the fathers , for that which scripture is a stranger to . if ignatius ad heronem diaconum be genuine , there 's this testimony , nihil sine episcopis operare . sacerdotes enim sunt : tu autem diaconus sacerdotum : illi baptizant , sacrificant , manus imponunt , tu autem ipsis ministra . i recite it out of vshers ' latin copy , as supposed the most pure . tertullian lib. de proscript . cap. 36. appealing to the practice of the apostle john , in the africane churches , mentioneth , as his faith that he taught ; one god the creatour , and jesus christ the sonne of god , and the resurrection of the body , and that he joyned the law and prophets , with the evangelical , and apostolik writings , and thence drunk this faith : and of his practice he saith , aquâ signat , sancto spiritu vestit ; euchristiâ pascit ; as three distinct ordinances . lib. de baptismo cap. 8. having mentioned baptism , ( and the unction joyned to that , and not then to confirmation ) he addeth , de hinc manus imponitur , per benedictionem advocans , & invitans spiritum sanctum . idem de resur . carn . cap. 8. sed & caro abluitur , ut anima emaculetur : caro unguitur , ut anima consecretur : caro signatur , ut & anima muaiatur : caro manus impositione adumbratur , ut & anima spiritu illuminetur . cyprian ad stephan . epist . 72. et ad jubaian , is too much for it . i will not trouble you in citing any writers , since general councels were in use , because their testimony is enough . he that would see such , may read barronius ad an. 35. at large . so much for the proof of the fitness of imposition of hands in confirmation . i come now to the second part of my proposition , viz. that this ceremony is not of such necessity , as that such as scruple it , should be denied liberty of forbearing the reception of it , if they submit to the ministerial tryal and approbation of their profession , and admission , and reception to church priviledges . for proof of this consider , 1. that we do not find that god any where instituted this signe , as a matter of necessity , still without interruption , to be used ; but only that by holy men it was applyed as a convenient signe , or gesture to the works , in which they used it . even as lifting up of hands in prayer was ordinarily used as a fit gesture , not wilfully to be neglected without cause , and yet not of flat necessity ; or as kneeling in prayer , is ordinarily meet , but not alway necessary . we find no more scripture for the one then for the other : which indeed sheweth on one side , how causeless it is to question the lawfullness of it , any more then of listing up the the hands , or kneeling ; and yet how little reason there is on the other side , to make it a matter of flat necessity . 2. as we find that kneeling in prayer , and lifting up the hands were oft omitted , so we find that sometime the holy ghost is given before baptism , or imposition of hands , acts 10. and we find not that the apostles used it to all ( though i confess the negative arguing is infirm , yet it seems not probable , that this was alwaies done . 3. it is somewhat suspicious to find in martyr's description , of the christian churches practices , no mention of this , nor any sacrament , but baptism , and the lords supper , nor any of the roman ceremonies : and irenaeus , and some other are silent in it . 4. god maketh no ceremonies under the gospel so necessary , ( except the two sacraments ) not layeth so great a stress on them as under the law : and therefore we are not to interpret the gospel as laying mens salvation , or the peace of the church on any cerimonies ; unless we find it clearly expressed . 5. for all that i have said from scripture for imposition of hands in confirmation , though the lawfulness of it is proved past doubt , yet the proofe of the duty of using it , is lyable to so many objections , as that i must needs conclude , that the gospel tenderness & the sense of our mutual infirmities , and our care of tender consciences and of the churches peace , should restrain all the sons of piety and peace , from making it a matter of flat necessity , and forcing them that scruple it , to submit to it . and now having said thus much of imposition of hands , and confirmation , as grounded on the apostles example ; i must againe and againe remember you , that this is in a manner but ex aebundanti , and that the cause that i am pleading , doth not at all need it ; but that i did before most clearly manifest the truth of my position upon other grounds , upon which i shall proceed : and having shewed the necessity of ministerial judging of mens profession , and the personal covenanting of the adult , and the lawfullness of imposing hands therein , i go on as to the manner . prop. 14. though in receiving adult persons out of infidelity by baptism into the church ; a sudden profession without any stay to see their reformation , may serve tu●n ; yet in the receiving those that were baptized heretofore , into the number of adult-members , or to the priviledges of such , their lives must be enquired after , which must be such as do not confute their profession . vve find in scripture , that the converted were suddenly baptized , and they stayed not for any reformation of life to go before . indeed the ancient chrches aferwards kept their catechumens long in expectation ; but that was not to see their lives first reformed , but that they might have time to teach them the doctrine of christ , which they must know before they could be converts indeed . the apostles did suddenly baptize , converted jews and proselites , because they had so much preparatory knowledg , as that a shorter teaching might acquaint them with the christian doctrine . but the heathens must belong in learning so much as the jews knew before conversion . yet if the catechumens did fall into gross sinne in time of their expectation and learning , they were so much the longer delayed , because it signifyed , that their first professed desires of entering into the church , upon christs terms , were not right . but the baptized stand upon other terms : for 1. they are already in covenant with god the father , sonne , and holy ghost ; and have renounced the flesh , the world , and the devil , and promised obedience to god , and to live according to their covenant . and this the church hath still required of them , as i shewed out of justin martyr , and others before * dionysius ( or whoever else ) in lib : de hierarch eccles . saith , ipse autem se omnino ea quae tradentur , sequuturum esse pollicetur : and ex eo praeterea quaerit , num ita instituat vivere , cum promisit asseverationibus , &c. upon which saith albaspinaeus , quia scilicet fidem christianam , christianumque vivendi genus , & mores , sese complexos persequnturisque jucabant , antequam baptizarentur . ( in tertul. de paenit . pag. 289. ) & postea . non accedebant ad baptismum nisi de rebus fidei plane instructi , id est , de dei magnitudine , & potestate rebusque quae in evangeliis continentur , uno excepto eucharistiae mysterio ; neque baptizabantur , nisi post quam ea omnia se credere jurassent , quorum fides a fide poenitentiae incipiebat , &c. et in sequ . jucabant in baptismo solennibus verbis , se nunquam * peccaturos ; deinde renunciabant diabolo & pompis ejus . denique censurâ , si peccarent post baptismum coercebantur . so that men that are engaged in covenant with god , must keep covenant , or manifest themselves penitent , for the violation of it , before they are admitted to further priviledges . there is a long time , in which they grow up from an infant-state to an adult ; and how they live in that time , must be enquired after . 2. otherwise the apostate would have equal acceptance and priviledges with the faithfull . 3. and so penitence and absolution would be excluded and confounded with meer confirmation . 4. moreover the baptized are obliged to be responsible for their lives , being under the government of christs ministers , and among his saints . 5. for the sake of their own souls , and of the church and ordinances , we must endeavour to preserve them from corruption , which lying professions would introduce ; and therefore must not overlook , or neglect such evidence as is within our reach . 6. else ministers that are by office to judg of their profession , would be unfaithfull judges , and forfeit their trust , if they shall wilfully neglect any evidence within their cognisance , by which they may be enabled to judge . but yet it is not the certainty of inward saving grace , that we must find out by mens lives ; for no man can have such certainty of another : but only that their lives be not such , as null and invalidate , and confute their profession , and they live not in the perfidious violation of their baptismal covenant . prop. 15. it is not of flat necessity that the profession of the expectant be made in the open congregation , or before many , in order to his confirmation and admittance . proved , 1. it is not of necessity , that converted infidels be admitted by baptism into the state of adult-members , upon a publique profession in a congregation : therefore it is not of necessity , that others be so admitted in confirmation . the antecedent is proved by the instance of the eunuch , acts 8. whom philip baptized in their way , and the jaylour and his houshold , acts 16. baptzed in the night at home . the consequence is proved by the propriety of reason and case . 2. if a man may by confirmation be admitted into the number of adult christians , in the church universal , without being admitted into a particular church , then his profession and admission need not ( in that case ) to be before the congregation : but the antecedent is true : as i prove thus . a man may by adult baptism , be admitted first into the universal church only : ( as was the eunuch , the jaylour , lydia , sergius paulus , and every first convert in any city , where the apostles came : ) therefore a man may by confirmation be admitted into the number of the adult , in the catholick church only : for the reason is the same , and the former admitteth them into the same number . the consequence of the major is plain . for no one congregation more then another , can claim the cognisance of the admission of a member into the universal church , or confirming them in it . 3. scripture hath no where made such publique admission to be of constant necessity : therefore it is not so . 4. else none could be admitted , or confirmed when persecution hindereth church assemblies . 5. the church is to believe and trust the pastours , to whom it doth by office belong to try and admit them . 6. general unfixed ministers may thus try , approve , and confirm , who are not pastours of any particular church : ( such as apostles , evangelists , and others were : ) therefore they are not alwaies to do it before a particular church : nor indeed did they alway do so . prop. 16. when a person is admitted among the adult-members af a particular church ; as well as the vniversal , his profession and admission must be either before the church , or satisfactorily made known to the church at least , who must approve of it by a judgment of discretion , in order to their communion with him : and this among us is the ordinary case ; because it is the duty of all that have opportunity , to joyn themselves to some particular church ; and it is in such churches , that communion in publique worship and order must be had , either statedly , or transiently and temporarily . 1. the solemnity it self of our transition into the number of adult-members , and their communion , is of very great advantage , as i shall manifest more anon . 2. we that are commonly against the private admission of infants ( at least except in some urgent case ) have less reason to be for the private transition and admission of men among the adult , and that into a particular governed church . 3. the whole society among whom such a person is entered , do owe him much duty and brotherly assistance : they must love him with a special love : they must live , though not in a levelling , yet in a charitable community with him , not shutting up the bowels of compassion from him , when they see him in want , but relieving him , as if they sufferd with him : they are not only to love him , and relieve him as a man ; but as one of christ's little ones , or friends ; yea as his brethren , yea as loving and relieving christ in them , matth. 25. 35. to the end . they must receive and relieve a disciple in the name of a disciple . besides this , they must have church-union and communion with him , as one body ; and must pray for him , and rejoice with him in gods praises , and the lords supper , and watch over him , and admonish and reprove him in sinne , for his recovery ; and avoid him if he walk disorderly , and be impenitent in scandalous sinne , &c. now 1. no man can perform all this duty , to a man that he knoweth not to be thus related to him : if he know not that he owes him this duty , any more then to any one else in the world , how shall he pay it him ? to say that we are bound to take all men , that converse with us , to be such ; is to say , that christians must renounce their witts , and turn the church into bedlam . 2. and as this proves , that the church-members must be made known to one another , so it proves that they must have a judgment of discretion in receiving them : ( though the pastours have the judgment of governing direction . ) for 1. god hath not left the pastours at liberty , to take in whom they please ; but hath described what profession they shall accept , or what persons they shall admit , and whom they shall reject . if therefore the pastours go against the word of god , then this following is the peoples duty : 1. if they know not the errour , or the case be doubtfull , they are to rest in obedience to their pastours , ( for that 's undoubtedly their duty ) the work being the pastours and not theirs . 2. but if the case be plainly contrary to the scripture , ( as if he would admit an impenitent drunkard , fornicatour , &c. ) they must disown his sinne , that it lie not upon them , and refuse private familiarity with that person ; but not withdraw from publick ordinances , because of his presence . for when they have done their duty , and rid themselves of the guilt by a dissent , the person is to them as morrally absent , though locally and physically present ; and the ordinance is not defiled to them by his corporal presence ; but the guilt will lie on the rulers of the church : otherwise , all churches should be broken in pieces , if the people must seperate , when every one that they are confident is unworthy is introduced : and the governed will become the governours . 3. but if it be not a few that the pastours thus introduce against the certain word of god ; but so many and such as will corrupt the substance of the church , and make it an uncapable matter for the form , and so to become another thing , and destroy the very ends of church-association , so that it is no longer a communion of saints ; then the people fearing god , are bound to stop this before it have quite corrupted the church , by admonishing the pastours , and advising with neighbour churches to admonish them ; and if that prevail not , by rejecting them : and if they cannot do so , by reason of a major vote of uncapable persons , they ought to withdraw themselves , and worship god in such a church as is truly capable of the name and ends : and this is a lawfull and necessary separation ; of which as it is a duty , god is the cause ; and as it is a forsaking of the rest , the culpable cause is only in themselves . i can easily prove all this , but that i think it needless tediousness . 4. and indeed it would be very hard measure , if at the corrupt administration of a carnal , or carless , or erroneous pastour , all the church must be under an obligation to give their estates by way of relief to every one , that he will put the name of a christian and church member upon unworthily : then may he force them to maintaine all the beggars and rogues about them , though they were infidels and impious men . i speak not of the common relief of the needy ; for that i know they owe to an infidel : but of the special community , which charity must make among the disciples of christ . it 's against all reason , that an erring or careless pastour , shall thus command all the peoples estates , by introducing such without their consent , whom they are bound thus to maintaine . 5. yea indeed , the spirit of god , is in the saints , a spirit of discerning ; so that it is not possible that all the church should in their affections obey such a corrupt administratour , by loving all the notorious , ungodly men , as saints , with the special love of brethren , whom he will carelesly , or erroneously put in the place of saints . i cannot possibly love that man as a saint , or disciple of christ , that i am certain is his enemy , and none such . i conclude therefore , that though the people be not church-governours by a vote ( that 's a great errour ) yet they have a judgment of discerning , according to which , they must obey , or reject their pastours administrations . and he that denyeth this , and would have them yield an absolute obedience , without trying , choosing and refusing , would not only make the pastours to be of a papal streine , but would give them a jesuitical obedience , above what the moderate papists give the pope . and therefore seeing that ad finem there is a necessity that the people consent , ( or else they cannot obey , nor hold communion with the person ) therefore there is also the same necesity ad finem that they have satisfaction offered them , and have either the cognisance of the profession , and admission of the person , or that they be satisfied in the fidelity of their pastours in administration , and that he seek their consent ; or ( which is best ) that some chosen persons do represent them , and be present at such professions with the pastours ; and the pastours , and their own delegates together , do acquaint the congregation of all that are admitted , and of their satisfactory prfession , that they may hold communion with them . this i speak of those ( which are very many ) that are fit for church-communion , and yet through bashfullness , or want of utterance , are unable to make a publike profession before all ( the choisest christians that i have known , have been such : ) but those that are able , should rather in publike make their own profession . object . but what if one part of the congregation approve of the person and profession , and the other disallow it ? answ . 1. they are to be governed by the pastours . 2. and consult with the pastours of neighbour church●● , in rules of great weight aed danger . 3. and the lesser part of the church , in doubtfull cases , and tollerable differences , is to yield to the greater part : not as if a major vote had the government of the rest ( much less of their governours ; ) but in order to vnity the fewer must submit . quest . but what if the people would have the pastour baptize , confirm , or introduce an open hereticke , or wicked person in his impenitency ? answ . the pastour must obey god , and refuse to obey them . quest . and what if the people think a man unfit , whom the pastour would approve and introduce ? answ . 1. he may admit him into the universal church : notwithstanding their unjust refusall . 2. he hath power to admit him into that particular church , against their unjust dissent , as he is the ruler of the church , and the administratour of the ordinances . 3. he hath authority to perswade and command them from christ , to hold communion with the person , and do their duty to him : which if they do not they commit a double sinne : one of unjustice and uncharitableness , in a causless rejecting of a member of christ ; and another of disobedience , against the fifth commandement . 4. but yet the pastours cannot force the people to obey their advice , and command , nor effectually procure it perhaps . 5. and therefore their forementioned power is not alwaies to be exercised . for it is in vaine to use a means , that will rather hinder the end then attain to it ; and so is at that time , no means . sometimes the pastour may see just cause to exercise all this power , and execute his part of church communion with the person , in administring the ordinances to him , and leave the people answerable to god , for refusing their part : but this is not an usual case : usually , if he see the people resolve against communion , with that person ( how fit soever , ) he is publickly to cleare himself by disallowing them in their sinne , and reproving them for it , and leaving the blame on them ; and then in prudence to forbear the intruding of the person ; because no duty is at all times a duty to be performed ; and especially when the hurt that will follow upon it , in the divisions of the church , is like to be far greater then the good , if it be done . 6. but if the church should be so corrupted , as that the major vote doth set against faith and godlines as such , and so will not admit a sound member to be added to them , the pastour with the minor part , may after due admonition and patience , as justly reject the guilty and obstinate , as if they were but one man , and not a major part . what is said of this case of admission , holds also of rejection by excommunication , and of other antecedent acts of discipline . 4. lastly , if excommunication must usually be done in publique , before the whole church , that they may know whom to avoid , and know the reason of it ; then admission must usually be done in publique ( the person or the pastour , opening the case to the people ) that they may know whom to have communion with ; and know the reason of of it : but the antecedent is confessed by almost all . and it s proved plainly by paul's practice and direction , 1 cor 5. throughout : and it was the custom of the christian churches in tertullians daies , apolog. cap. 39. there also ( in the christian meeting for worship ) are exercised exhortations , castigations and the divine censure : for judgment is passed with great deliberation , or weight , as with men that are assured of the presence , or sight of god : and it is the highest representation of the judgment to come , if any one so offend , as that he be discharged , or banished from communion of prayer , and of the assembly , and of all holy commerce , or fellowship . abundance more out of cyprian , and others might be easily produced , to prove that this which i have spoken , was the ancient interest of the people in these church-affaires : yea in the choise of their pastours , yea and in rejecting unworthy pastours , cyprian saith , they had a chief interest : not by ruling power , but by a prudent exercise of obedience , choosing the good , and refusing the evil . self-preservation is naturall to every body , where it is not by evil means , and to the hurt of the publike state. it 's hard if a natural body may not lawfully refuse , or cast up poison , if a governour should give it them . god bindeth none to the perdition of their souls ; nor any holy society to destroy it self , or suffer it self to be destroyed , or corrupted by others , without the use of all just means , to resist the bane . but of this i shall desire the reader , that would know the judgment and practice of the ancient church , to peruse dr blondel de jure plebis in regimine ecclesiast . adjoyned to that excellent piece of grotius de imperio summarum pot●statum circa sacra . this much may satisfie you , that it should not be usually a secret but a solemn transition from an infant-state of membership , into an adult-state ; and that by a publike profession or notification of it , the particular church should have satisfaction herein . prop 17. it is convenient , though not of necessity , that every church do keep a register , of all that are admitted thus into the number of the adult-members . as we were wont to keep a register of the infants baptized , so have we as much reason , of the adult , approved and confirmed or restored . corporations of old , were wont to keep a book of the names of their burgesses or citizens : in respect to which , god is said to have a book of life , wherein he writes mens names , and out of which he blots them , speaking after the manner of men . the church hath great reason for this practice , the business being of so great weight ; that we forget not who are of our communion : which without a register , in great congregations , must needs be done . if any be so vaine , as to demand a scripture proofe of this ; let him first bring me a scripture-proofe , that he may read with spectacles , or write a sermon from the preachers mouth , or use notes in the pulpit , or print , &c. and then i will give him proofe of this : in the mean time , if this do not satisfie him , he shall have liberty to disuse it . prop. 18. those that were never thus ministerially and explicitly approved , confirmed or absolved ( after an ungodly life , ) but have been permitted without it , to joyne ordinarily with the church in prayer and praises , and have been admitted to the communion of the church , in the lords supper , are approved and confirmed , eminently though not formally : though in so doing , both the pastours and themselves did sin against god , by the violation of his holy order . so that such may be a true church , though much corrupted or disordered . this i adde for two reasons : 1. to confute them that say our churches are no true churches , for want of an explicite profession . 2. and to acquaint you who it is among us , that are , or are not to be called to confirmation . 1. it is not the degree of clearness and openness in our profession , or in the ministerial approbation or admission , that is essential to a church-member . an obscure profession may be truly a profession . some obscure profession , hath been ordinarily made by our people in this land heretofore , by their ordinary hearing the word , and standing up at the recital of the creed ; and joyning with the church in prayer and praise , and confessing the scriptures to be the word of god , and acknowledging the ministry : and a further profession they made , by actual receiving the lords supper , which is a silent profession of their faith in christ . and though they were not solemnly approved and confirmed , ( except that one of many , had a cerimonious confirmation from the bishop in their childhood ) yet were they actually admitted to daily communion with the church , and the special part of communion in the lords supper . and though this profession and admission was lamentably defective , ( of which more anon ) yet it is such as may prove our ordinary assemblies to have been true churches . 2. and i do not think it fit , that any that have been already admitted to church-communion in the lords supper , should be now called out to confirmation , by imposition of hands ; though where there is just cause to question their knowledg , faith , or lives , they may by the postour be called to give an account of them ; and put upon a clearer profession then they have yet made : but sure when they have been admitted to the lords supper , by any regular ministry and church , they are to be taken for adult-members , till they are justly cast out , or do cast out themselves . for the more perfect doth include the less perfect in it : if a man be ordained a presbyter , that was never ordained deacon , he is not to be called back againe and made a deacon . if you make a man free of your trade , before he was ever bound prentice ; you cannot call him back againe , and bind him prentice after this . if the university give a man the degree of doctor of divinity , or master of arts , that never took degree of batchelour of divinity , or of arts , they cannot afterwards call him back to take his batchelours degree . if you have irregularly admitted the untryed , unapproved , unconfirmed to the lord supper , you have eminenter , though not formaliter confirmed and approved him though irregularly . of this more anon . prop. 19. so exceeding great and many are the mischiefs that have befallen us , by the neglect of a solemn meet transition from an infant , into the adult church state , and which undoubtedly will continue , till this be remedyed , that all magistrates , ministers , and people , that dissemble not , in professing themselves to be christians , should with speed and diligence attempt the cure. let us here take a view of the case of our nation , and congregations , and then consider of the effects and consequents . all the people of our parishes , ( except anabaptists ) do bring their children to be baptized ; which if it were faithfully done , were a happy means of an early engagement unto christ , and a happy enterance upon further mercy . ) multitudes of those know not what baptism is , nor to what use and end it is appointed , nor what benefit their children may receive by it : ( i speak upon too sure and large experience ) nor do they know what christianity is , nor who jesus christ is , nor what it is , that they are to do in baptism : but there they make a promise customarily , as they are bid , in words not understood , that they will acquaint their children at age with the covenant there made ( which they never understood themselves ) and that they will educate them in godliness , when they hate godliness at the heart . and when they come home , they performe their promise accordingly : they teach them nothing of the doctrine of christianity , and the life to come , but they give them up to the flesh and the world , which there in words they did renounce ; and they teach them by their daily examples to curse , and swear , and raile , and to be proud and covetuous , and voluptuous , serving their bellies in stead of god ; and hateful reproaching a godly life , instead of teaching it their children . these children are customarily brought to the assemblies , where they heare the plainest teaching , without understanding , or regarding it , and grow hardened under daily reproofs and exhortations ; living as their parents taught them , some in gross ignorance and worldlyness , without any signes of godlyness , further then to come to church ; some in drunkenness , some in whoredom , abundance in a malignant hatred of a holy life , making them that use it the common scorne , and taking them for the hatefullest persons in the parish , or country where they live : for custome sake , and to quiet their conscience in their sinne , they will come to the lords table , if they be admitted by the pastour , and may have it in their mode and way : and if a minister shall desire them to come to him first , that he may understand their knowledg and profession , they scorn it ; and ask him by what authority he would examine them , and what proof he hath that men must be examined , before they be admitted to the lords supper ? and some self-conceited , half-witted writers have taught them this lesson , and made ministerial tryal and approbation●odious to them . but because they were once baptized , and have since come to hear and joyne with us in the assembly , therefore they think that they have right to all ordinances , and are true christians and adult members of the church ; and also exempt from the government of the pastours , that require them to submit to the means of their own good . in the bishops daies , some few of them were confirmed : ( in the country where i lived , about one of ten or twenty ) and what that was , and how it was done i can tell you , but what i once made tryall of . when i was a schoole-boy , about 15 years of age , the bishop coming into the country , many went in to him to be confirmed : we that were boies , runne out to see the bishop among the rest , not knowing any thing of the meaning of the business : when we came thither , we met about thirty or fourty in all , of our own stature and temper , that had come for to be bishopt , as then it was called : the bishop examined us not at all in one article of the faith ; but in a church-yard , in hast , we were set in a rank , and he past hastily over us , laying his hands on our head , and saying a few words , which neither i nor any that i spoke with , understood ; so hastily were they uttered , and a very short prayer recited , and there was an end . but whethey we were christians or infidels , or knew so much as that there was a god , the bishop little knew , nor enquired . and yet he was one of the best bishops esteemed in england . and though the canons require , that the curate or minister send a certificate that children have learnt the catechism ; yet there was no such thing done , but we runne of our own accord to see the bishop only ; and almost all the rest of the county , had not this much : this was the old careless practice of this excellent duty of confirmation . some few ( perhaps halfe a parish in the best places ) will send their children to church , to be catechized yet ; but even those few that learn the words for the most part understand not what they say ▪ and are as ignorant of the matters , as if they never learnt the words . this is the common way , by which our parishes come to be churches , and our people to be christians ; supposing some to be mixt among them , that are more faithfully devoted to god in baptism , and better educated , in the feare of god. 2. now let us see what are the real , visible , undenyable fruits of this defective sinful course . because men build upon this fundamental falshood , that infant baptism upon the parents profession , doth give them right to the church-state and priviledges of the adult , without any personal profession and covenanting with god , when they come to the use of reason , which the church must have cognisance of ; and so they that entred somewhat more regularly into an infant church state , do become adult-members secretly , unobservedly , and no body well knows how : hereupon it followeth , 1. that our churches are lamentably corrupted and diseased , ( though they are true churches , and have life in them ) while they are made so like the unbelieving and ungodly world ; and the garden of christ is made too like the common wilderness for heathens , and impious persons , and all sorts of the unclean ( almost ) are the members of them , where parishes , or parish-meetings are made convertible with churches . i would make the case neither worse nor better then it is . till within these few years , i knew but very imperfectly how it is , and i thought the case had been better with some , and worse with others then i have found it upon tryall . and had i not set upon the duty of personal instruction , i should never have known the state of the people : but now we have dealt with them almost all in private personally , i shall truly tell you the state of this parish , by which you may conjecture at the rest of the nation . i know not a congregation in england that hath in it proportionably so many that fear god : and yet our whole parish consisteth of all these sorts following . 1. among eight hundred families , there are about five hundred persons , such as the vulgar call precise , that are rated to be serious professours of religion , ( or perhaps somewhat more ) these live in unity , and seem to me to seek first the kingdom of god and his righteousness ; and are of as peaceable , harmless , humble spirits , and as unanimous without inclination to sects , or ostentation of their parts , as any people i know . 2. besides these there are some of competent knowledg and exterior performances , and lives so blameless , that we can gather from them no certain proofe , or violent presumption that they are ungodly , or that their profession is not sincere . so many of these joyning with the rest , as make about six hundred , do own their church-membership , and consent to live under so much of church-order and government , as unquestionably belongeth to presbyters to exercise , and to be my pastoral charge . 3. besides these , there are some that are tractable and of willing minds , that by their expressions seem to be ignorant of the very essentials of christanity ; which yet i find to have obscure conceptions of the truth , when i have condescendingly better searcht them , and helped them by my enquiries . these also ( as weak in the faith ) we receive . * 4. some there are that are of competent understandings , and of lives so blameless , that we durst not reject them ; but they hold off themselves , because they are taught to question , if not to disown our administrations ; for all that , we give liberty to all that in tollerable things do differ . 5. some there are , that are secret heathens , believing with aristotle , that the world was from eternity ; making a scorn of christ , and moses , and heaven , and hell , and scripture , and ministers , and all religion ; thinking that there is no devill , no immortality of the soul , or everlasting life : but this they reveale only in secret , to those that they find capable , by viciousness , unsetledness , or any malignity , or discontent against the godly , or the orders of the church : and yet for the hiding of their minds , they will hear and urge us to baptize their children , and openly make the most orthodox confessions , and secretly deride it when they have done , as i can prove . and this is the only differing party among us , in judgment and designe , that is in danger of leavening many , that god forsaketh . 6. many there are that have tollerable knowledg , and live in some notorious , scandalous sins : some in gross covetuousness , and these will not be convinced : some in common drunkenness , and those will confess their faults , and promise amendment a hundred times over , and be drunk within a few daies againe ; and thus have spent the most part of their lives : some in as constant ●ipling , drinking as great a quantity , but bearing it better away : some in ordinary swearing , cursing , ribaldry , whoredomes sometimes . many in neglect of all family-duties , and the lords day : and some in hatefull , bitter scorns at prayer , holy conference , church-order and holy living , and the people that use it ; sometimes rising up in tumults against the officers that endeavour to punish a drunkard , or sabboth breaker , and rescuing them , and seeking the ruine of the officers . 7. some there are that are of more tractable dispositions , but really know not what a christian is : that heare us from day to day , yea and some few of them learn the words of the catechism , and yet know not almost any more , then the veryest heathen in america . they all confess , that we must mend our lives , and serve god : but they know not that god is eternal , or that christ is god , or that he is man , but say , he is a spirit ; some say neither god nor man ; some say god and not man ; some say man and not god : abundance say , he was man on earth , but now he is not : abundance know not what he came to do in the world : nor that there is any satifaction made for sinne , but what we must make our selves ; and they tell me , they trust to nothing for pardon and salvation , but gods mercy , and their good serving him ( which is only saying every night and morning in bed , or as they undress them , the lords prayer ▪ and the creed for a prayer , and comming to church . ) they say openly , they do not know of any surety that we have , or any that hath borne the punishment of our sinne , or suffered for us : and when i repeat the history of the incarnation , life , death , and resurrection of christ to them , they stand wondering , and say , they never heard it before : what the holy ghost is , they know not : nor what sanctification , faith , or justification is : nor what baptism is ; nor the lords supper ; nor to what use , but in general , for our salvation . what a church is , they know not ; nor what is the office of pastour or people , save only to preach and hear , and give and receive the sacraments . if i ask them what christianity is , the best answer is , that it is a serving god as well as we can , or as god will give us leave . so that there is scarce an article of the creed , or very few that they tolerably understand . nay one of about fourescore yeares of age ( now dead ) thought christ was the sunne , that shineth in the firmament ; and the holy ghost was the moone . 8. many there be , that joyne this heathenish ignorance , and wicked obstinacy together ; hating to be instructed ; scorning to come neer me , to be taught , and to be told of their sinne , when they come . they will raile at us bitterly behind our backs , if we will not let them have their own will and way about the sacraments , and all church-affaires : but they will not submit to that teaching , that should bring them to know what christ or christianity is . 9. some there be that are of tollerable knowledg , and no drunkards , nor whoremongers that the world knoweth of , but of more plausible lives , and have some formes of prayer in their families : but yet live in idle or tipling company , or spend their lives in vanity , and hate more a diligent serving of god , and heavenly life , then the open drunkars do : these make it their work to possess people with a hatred of strict professours , and of our churches and administrations , and to that end get all the books that are written for admitting all to the lords table , that they can light of ; and contrary to the authors meanings , they make them engines to harden others in their impiety , and hatred of reformation : the like use they make of the writings of man●y dissenting divines , about church-governemnt ; or any from whence they may fetch matter of reproach against the pastours and ordinances among us . 10. another sort there are , that are deeply possest with a conceit , that god having determined before we are borne , whether we shall be saved or not , it is in vaine to strive ; for if we be predestinated , we shall be saved what ever we do ; and if we be not , we shall not , what ever we do ; and that we can do nothing of our selves , nor have a good thought , but by the grace of god , and if god will give it us , we shall have it ; and the devil cannot prevaile against him ; but if he will not give it us , it 's in vaine to seek it ; for it is not in him that willeth , nor in him that runneth , but in god that sheweth mercy ; and therefore they give up themselves to security and ungodliness , because they cannot do nothing of themselves . and thus by misunderstanding some texts of scripture , and abusing some truths of god , they are hardened in ungodliness , thinking that all is long of god : and they will not so much as promise reformation , nor promise to use the means , because they say , they cannot tell whether god will put it into their hearts : and it is all as he will. 11. besides these , there is one or two honest , ignorant professours , that are turned anabaptists , and joyne with the church of them in the next parish . 12. and some papists are among us ; and whether only those that stay from the assemblies , i cannot say . of these twelve sorts of people , this parish is composed ; which i therefore mention , that the state of our parishes may be truly known ; while others are compared with this : for every one hath not had the opportunities which i have had , to know all their people , or the most . and now if all these are fit to go for christians , then must we make a new kind of christianity ; and a new gospel , and a new christ . and if all these are fit to be church-members , then we must make a new kind of churches ? and why then may not those be christians and church-members , that never heard of the name of christ , as well as many of these ? 2. by this untried entrance of all sorts into our churches , we bring a dishonour on the very christian name , and so on the lord jesus himself , and on his gospel and holy waies . christianity is not a matter of meer opinion : christ came not into the world only to perswade men to have high thoughts of him , but to save his people from their sinnes , and to destroy the works of the devil . and when the church of christ shall be turned into a den of thieves , or a sty of swine , what a great dishonour is it to the lord ? as if we would perswade the world , that his servants are no holier then others , and differ but in an opinion from the world . christ needeth not disciples , and therefore will not take in all that refuse to come upon his terms ; but hath fixed his terms , and will have only those that will yield to them . though i abhorre the rigor of the contrary extreame , that would make the church narrower then it is , and pinne it up in so small a number , as would tempt men to doubt of christianity it self ; and teacheth men to exclude their bretheren , meerly because they are themselves uncharitable judges , when they are not able to disprove their profession ; yet must i also detest this horrible dishonouring of the lord , as if his body were no better than the army of the devil . 3. and by this means the heathens , jews , mahometans and all infidels are exceedingly hindred from believing in christ ; when they can say as the turks , when men question their fidelity ; what ? dost thou think i am a christian ? he that knows any thing of religious affaires , knoweth that commonly the first thing that draweth men to any party , is the liking of the persons and their practices ; from whence they grow to enquire with inclination into their doctrines . the ancient christians that lived before the daies of constantine , did bring christianity into reputation by their holiness , and god was then more eminently seen among them . but when the countenance of the emperour , and worldly advantages had drawn in all men to the church , and the bishops did set the door too wide open , christianity lookt like another thing , and that inundation of wickedness overspread the church , which salvian and so many more complaine of . our likeliest way to win the jews , and all infidels to the church , is by shewing them the true nature of christianity in the church-members . 4. hereby also we confound the ancient order of catechumens , or expectants with the true members of the church , and lay the church and the porch , yea and the church-yard , if not the commons , all together . by which also our preaching and administrations are confounded : so that whereas the ancient churches had their common sermons ( and some prayers ) which were fitted to the unconverted or expectants ; and had also both doctrine , praiers , praises , and other worship , proper to the church ( especially on the lords daies ) we must now speak to all , and joyn with all ; and the church , and the enemies of the church must sing the same praises , as if they were one body . and god is not the god of confusion but of order in the churches . he that put two sorts of preaching and doctrine into the apostles commission , matth. 28. 19 , 20. one for making disciples and another for the edifying and guidance of disciples , did never intend , that these should be confounded . 5. and then by this means , the souls of millions of poore people are deprived of the great benefits of the ordinances and administrations suitable to their state . the begetting word goeth before the feeding , strengthning word , even before the milk for babes . the laying of the foundation must go before our building thereon . every one will thrive best in his own element and place . a fish will not prosper on dry land , nor a man under water . the womb is the only place for the embrio and unborn child , though not for those that have seen the sun. if you will break the shell before the chicken be hatcht , that you may hasten its production , or honour it with a premature association with the rest that see the sunne , your foolish charity will be the death of it . and so deale abundance of mistaken zealots with the souls of men ; who cry out against the wisest and most conscionable ministers , as if they were unchristning the people , and undoing the world , because they would feed them with food convenient for them , and will not be such hasty midwives , as to cast the mother into her throws , if not rip her up , that shee may have the child at her breasts , which should yet be many daies or moneths in the womb . moreover they thus cause our people , to lose all that benefit of preparations , and solemn engagement to christ : of which more anon among the benefits . 6. by this means also the souls of our poor people are deluded , and they are made believe that they are christians when they are not , and in a state of salvation , when it 's no such thing . as mr thorndicke saith ( as aforecited ) no man is to be admitted to the assemblies ( or visible societies of christians ) till there be just presumption that he is of the heavenly jerusalem that is above : — and admitting to , and excluding from the church is , or ought to be a just and lawfull presumption , of admitting to , or excluding from heaven : it is morally and legally the same act that entitleth to heaven , and to the church , that maketh an heir of life everlasting and a christian : — and if so , then what greater mischief can we do the soul of an ungodly man , then so to delude him , by our admitting him into the church , and make him believe he is in a state of salvation , when it 's no such thing ? false faith , and false hopes , are the things that fill hell , and are the common undoing of the world : and all that ever we can do , is too little to cure it . when i bend all my studies and labours , but to make a wicked man know that he is wicked , i cannot procure it . i can make him believe that he is a sinner , but not that he is an unconverted , ungodly sinner , and in a state of condemnation . o the power of blinding self-love ! that will not suffer them to see themselves miserable , when they see themselves sinfull , and all because they would not have it so ; when yet it 's most visible to others . and shall we all joyne to strengthen this potent enemy ? and lay this share , and thrust men headlong into hell , that are running down-hill so fast already : and all under pretence of charity and compassion ? 7. we shall put them by this means into a way , not only of losing the fruit of ordinances , but of misapplying all to the increasing of their deceit : when we preach peace to the true believer , the wicked will misapply it , and say , it belongs to them : when we speak against the unbelievers and ungodly , they 'l think that this is not their part , but bless themselves because they are christians . in our praises they are tempted with the pharisee to thank god , and perhaps for mercies which they never had , as justification , adoption , sanctification , &c. the sacraments by misapplication will confirm them in presumption . and thus as they enter by deceit , among adult-believers , so will they turn all the ordinances of god , and the priviledges of the church to feed that deceit , more effectuall then among the expectants it would have been . 8. but the greatest mischief that troubleth me to think of , is this ; that by this hastening and admitting all the unprepared into the number of adult-christians , and members of the church ; we do either put a necessity upon our selves to throw away church-discipline , or else to be most probably the damnation of our peoples souls , and make them desperate , and almost past all hope , or remedy . i must confess , that what i am saying now , i was not sensible of , till lately that experience made me sensible : while i medled not with publike reproofs or censures , i disputed of these things , without that experience , which i now find is one of the greatest helps to resolve such doubts ; which makes me bold to tell the church , that the practice of so much discipline as we are agreed in , is a likelyer way , to bring us all to agreement in the rest , then all our disputings will do without it : and that i resolve hereafter , to take that man for an incompetent judge , and unmeet disputer about church-discipline , that never exercised it , or lived where it was exercised : and i shall hereafter suspect their judgments , and be almost as loath to follow such , as to follow a swimmer , that never was before in the water , or a pilote that was never before at sea ; or a souldiour that never saw warres before , but have only learned their skill by the book . our case stands thus : if we take all our parishes according to the old church-constitution , to be particular churches , and all the parishiones to be members , then either we must exercise the discipline which christ hath commanded , or not . if not , then we disobey our lord and master , and own such a church , as is utterly uncapable of church-ends , and consequently of the essence , seeing that it is a relative being . for it 's supposed that it is not for any unusual accident , that we cannot exercise this discipline , but from the very church constitution , or incapacity of the matter . and then 1. we shall be traitours to christ , under the name of pastours , if we will wilfully cast out his ministerial , kingly government . 2. we shall betray the church to licentiousness . and 3. we shall set up a new church-way , which is contrary , to that which hath been practised in all ages , from the apostles daies , till impiety had overspread the christian world . he that dare take on him to be an overseer and ruler of the church , and not to oversee and rule it , and dare settle on such a church-state , as is uncapable of discipline , is so perfidious to christ , and ventureth so boldly , to make the church another thing , that i am resolved not to be his follower . but if we shall exercise the discipline of christ upon all in our ordinary parishes , what work shall we make ? i will tell you what work , from so much experience , as that no reasonings can any more perswade me to believe the contrary , then that wormwood is not bitter , or snow not cold . 1. we shall have such a multitude to excommunicate , or reject that it will make the sentence grow almost contemptible by the commonness . 2. we shall so extreamly enrage the spirits of the people , that we shall go in continual danger of our lives : among so many that are publikly reproved , and cast out , it 's two to one , but some desperate villains will be studying revenge . but all this is nothing : but that which sticks upon my heart is this : 3. we shall be the cruellest enemies to the souls of our poor people in the world : and put them the very next step to hell. for as soon as ever we have rejected them , and cast them under publique shame , they hate us to the heart , and either will never heare us more , or heare us with so much harted and malice , or bitterness of spirit , that they are never like to profit by us . if you say that doubtless discipline will have better fruits , if it be an ordinance of god : i answer 1. it 's no time now in the end of the world , to question whether that be an ordinance of god , which scripture speaks for so fully , and so plainly ; and which the catholike church hath so long practised , and that with such severity as it hath done . 2. i know the discipline is of excellent use , and is likely to have excellent effects : but upon whom ? upon such as are fit to come under discipline , and with such i have seen the usefulness of it : but with the rest it makes them next to mad . they that before would patiently hear me , in the plainest , sharpest sermons that i could preach , and would quietly bear any private admonition , when once they are publikly admonished and cast out , are filled with the gall of malice and indignation , and never more likely to profit by a sermon . nay they set themselves with malice , to reproach and oppose , and stir up others ; and fall in to any party , that will receive them that are enemies to the ministry : so that i looke upon some of them , when once they are cast out , almost as if they were already in hell : for they are desperately hardened against any further means of their recovery . 3. yea i am perswaded , that if we exercise christs discipline according to the scripture rule , upon all in the parishes in england , it would endanger a rebellion ; and the rage of the people would make them ready , to take any opportunity to rise up against the soveraigne power , that doth maintaine and protect us ; and if we were not protected , we should soone have enough of it . object . perhaps you 'l say , that publike admonitions , and church censures are not to be easily exercised , nor upon any but notorious , scandalous sinners , and that in case of obstinate impenitency . answ . i am as much against a rash , unnecessary censure , or use of the severity of discipline , as another : i know that a fly must not be killed with a beetle . let it be exercised but according to the parliaments ordinance , called the form of church-government , to be used in the church of england and ireland , aug. 29. 1648. or let it be exercised but with one half , or the sixth part of the severity of the ancient canons of the church , and you shall certainly see the effects that i tell you of . do you think to use it but with few , when impenitent , scandalous sinners are so many ? but perhaps you think to use it only in terrorem or now and then one , and let others alone that are in the same case . but 1. that 's the same disobedience to god , as to use it upon none at all . he that hath commanded us to reject a heretick , to have no company with the disorderly livers , to turn away from scandalous , ungodly men , and not to enter with drunkards , railers , &c. hath not bid us do thus by some some but by all . god 2. condemneth partiality . 3. your partiality will presently be so noted by men , that it will turn to your reproach , and make both you and your discipline odious , when they can say , he cast out one , and forbeareth others in the same case . object . but were there not more offenders then the incestuous man at corinth ? and yet paul casteth out but him . answ . 1. how can you tell how many paul cast out ? 2. doth he not give the church a flat command to cast out and avoid the rest , 1 cor. 5. 11 , 12. when will you make us believe , that paul at that time commanded them to do that which he would not have them do ? 3. corinth had many offendours , whom paul in that epistle reprehendeth : but can you prove that any of them were obstinately impenitent , after admonition ? i know you cannot . bu● perhaps you 'l think that you should by the preparatory , private admonition so bow them , and work upon them , that few of them should be so obstinate as to fall under censure . i answer , you speak this because you never tried , and know not the world . i must presume to tell you ( though to tell you the reasons be unmeet ) that there 's but few men in england must expect more advantages for interest in their people , then i have in mine : and yet all 's nothing , when i come to exercise discipline , and cross their selfish , sensual inclinations . those that will tell me , they are beholden to me for their lives , yet will not heare me when i perswade them to any humbling confession . those that cannot hide their sinne , will confess it , and commit it over and over : will you accept of their private confession for satisfaction , that will publickly slander their neighbours , or be drunk openly every week or month , or swear every day . but many of them will not so much as confess before a few ministers or officers of the church , that they have sinned , but will stand impenitently in it to the last . let me intreat them withall the submissiveness and earnestness that i can , when one hath beat or slandred another , or in the like cases , if i would kneel to them , i cannot get many of them once ( hypocritically ) to say , i am sorry , or i did amiss : and those that do say so , in a cold , hypocritical , heartless manner , will joyne with it such bitter words , against the accuser or reprover , and shew such hatred to those that admonish them , that declareth their impenitency . if you have such extraordinary abilities , to melt and mollifie hardened sinners , more then we have , you are the more unexcusably unfaithful to god and man , that will not use them . and all are not so haypy as to have your conquering parts . for my part i can say in uprightness of heart , that i do what i can do , ( abating those neglects which are the consequents of any frailty ) and if i knew how to do more , i would , with study , preaching , conference , labour or estate ; and yet with abundance i am not able to prevaile , so much as to make them capable of discipline . so that i see plainly by unquestionable experience , that either we must have churches without the discipline of christ , and be rulers without ruling it ; or else we must utterly undo our people , body and soul for ever , and plunge them into a desperate state , and make all our following labous in vaine to multitudes of them : or else we must take another course , then to admit all our parishes to adult church-membership , as was formerly done , without preparation , and fitness for such a state . and yet in their blindness , gentlemen , ministers , and all that plead for common church-membership , pretend to be charitable to the peoples souls , when they are exercising this grievous cruelty . it is just as if in mercy to the schoole-boyes , you should set them , that cannot read english , in the highest form , where they must make orations in latine and greek● , or else be whipt : would they thank you for such advancement . it is as if you should put an ignorant unexercised , cowardly soldier , or one that is but learning to use his armes , into the front of the battaile , for his honour : or as if you should prefer a pupill to be a tutour , or put a freshman in the doctors chaire , or admit a new baptized novice to be a pastour of the church , where the blood of the people shall be required at his hands ; or as if to honour him , you should admit any common marriner to the pilots place , or any apothecary to play the physician to other mens ruine , and his owne shame . if you set such children on horsback , while you pretend their good , you will break their necks . no man is safe out of his own ranck and place : if the husbandman know that every sort of plants and graine , must have their proper soile and season , and the gardner knoweth that several herbs and flowers , must be variously manured , or else they will not prosper ; why should we be less wise in the work of god ? as countrey schooles are seminaries to the academies , so the state of catechumens or expectants is the seminary to the church , and the state of infant church-membership , the seminary to the state of the adult , into which they must be seasonably and solemnly transplanted , when they are ripe and ready , and not before . truly our mercifull hastlings do but yoake untamed bullocks , that are fitter to strive and tyre themselves then to plow ; and do but saddle such wild , unbroken colts , as are liker to break their own and their riders necks , then to go the journy which they are designed for . in the state of expectants , these men may profit by preparing ordinances , and the season may come , when they may fitly be transplanted : but if we put them inter fideles that are infideles , among actual believers , and adult church-members that are not such , nor prepared for the station , we bring them under a discipline which will exasperate them , and turn them to be malignant enemies , and undoe them for ever . the disposition of the matter , must go before the reception of the forme : for undisposed matter will not receive it . as the operation followeth the being , and the disposition , so we must employ every person and thing , in such operations only , as their being and qualification is capable of , and suited to . a due placing of all according to their qualifications , is the chiefest part of our government . misplace but one wheel in your watch , and try how it will go . if any person or thing be not good in his own place , he will be much worse out of in , it the place of his superiour . fire is better in the chimny then in your bed , or upon your table : a good cleark may make but a sorry counseller ; and a good subject may make but an ill magistrate : and many a man becomes the seat of a justice , that would not become the princes throne . if you would not undoe mens souls by a discipline , which they cannot bear ; let them stay in the seminary of expectants , till they are ripe for it . object . but how do the churches of france , holland , geneva and scotland , that have exercised discipline upon all ? answ . 1. must i be sent to another nation to know that which i have made tryall of , and attained the certain knowledg of , at home ? i was never in france , nor at geneva , and therefore i know not what number of obstinate , impenitent , scandalous persons are there , nor how many that know who jesus christ is , nor what a christian , or a church is : but i have been in england , and i partly know what store of these are there , and what usage they will bear , and what not . 2. either other churches have such materials as our parishes , or not . if not , their cause is none of ours : if they have , then either they exercise christs discipline on them faithfully , and impartially or not : if not , then they are not to be imitated by us in their negligence , unfaithfullness , or partiality . if they do , and yet do not undo the people , they have not such a people as ours , or else they have other means to further their ends . 3. the truth is , as in france they are but a people gathered from among the papists , whose church doth drink up most of the scumme ; so the other churches : 1. are too lamentably careless , partial , or defective , in executing their own discipline : and if i should come to think it lawfull , to forbear the execution of it upon nineteene , i should soone think it lawfull to forbear the twentieth : and then what should i think of scripture , and the canons of the universal church . 2. by this neglect it is , that reformed churches have contracted the greatest dishonour that is upon them , while they are sound in doctrine , and have learned pastours , able to confound the romish adversaries ; but alas , too many unmeet church-members . 3. they have ( and scotland had till lately ) the magistrates sword to drive men on , and force them to submit to discipline , which is not our case , nor was the case of the primitive church . it is not there the churches censure that doth the work , but the magistrates sword , no more then it was with our bishops in england . 4. and yet what work a little exercise of discipline made , may appear in the case of calvin , at geneva , when for suspending the sacrament , when the people were in enmity , he was banished geneva , and their dogs called by the name of calvin ; and when the suspending of one bertelerius could put them all into such a flame . object . but fiat justitia & ruat coelum : let us trust god with his owne ordinances : we must do our duty , what ever come of it ? answ . this doth but beg the question : gods ordinances are not for destruction , but edification ; at least as to the multitude of the ungodly , they tend to their conversion , and not to their perdition . is that likely to be gods ordinance , which certain experience telleth us , will put such multitu●es of men into a hopeless case , or next to hopeless ? ministers are appointed to make disciples , and gather men to christ , and further their conversion , and not plunge them into a remediless state , and to hurry them all unprepared into church-communion , that they may be thrust out againe , and brought t● hate the church . it 's anothers work to advance them to the pinacle of the temple , that he may cast them down headlong . and i yet never knew the man , nor saw his face , that practised what this objection pleads for ; and exercised discipline , faithfully on a whole parish . nor do i believe that any man can do it that would ; unless the magistrate do it for him . for he cannot do it without the peoples consent : and if he sentence such to be avoided by the people , they will despise his sentence , and hold communion with them the more , and do as our drunkards do , when one of their companions is put in the stocks , bring him ale and good cheare ▪ and eat , and drink , and make merry with him , if the magistrate restraine them not . object . but excommunication must not be used , till all other remedies will do no good : and when all will do no good , what good will it do such to be kept under other means ? answ . to do good , for the bringing a man out of that sinne , for which he is admonished , is one thing , and to do good , for his information and conversion in the maine , is another thing ; it is the use of discipline , to cure men of the particular sinnes that they are reproved for , rather then to convert them from a state of wickedness in general . 2. nor is excommunication to be deferred , as long as there is any hope by other meanes ; but only till we have used other means in vaine , for such a season as is meet ; that the ends of discipline be not frustrate . for else there should never man be excommunicated : for there is some hope that preaching against his sinne may do him good at last ; though he come drunk to the lords table twenty years together , you cannot say that his conversion is impossible : and yet we must not hereupon deferre the casting out of such a member . but in his expectant state , or among the catechumens , we may beare with him lawfully in his wickedness , without excluding him from among our hearers , and if he heare us seaven years and seaven in vaine , there is yet some hope of his conversion , while he waiteth in his own place and way . and yet i yield this much to the objectours freely , that when fit persons are taken into the church , ( yea or unfit , by negligence ) we must wait with all patience that is consistent with the ends of government , and cutting off must be the last remedie : and that when it is necessary , it must be used , though we see that it 's ten to one , it will plunge the person ( occasionally ) into a worse condition . for the publike ends of discipline , ( the credit of christianity , the preservation of the church , and abundance more ) are to be preferred before the good of that mans soul : and as paena debetur reipublicae , and we cut not off malefactours for their own good , so much as the common-wealths , which by their hurt must be promoted , so is it as to the church . but this must be done but upon a few , for example : and therefore but few that will need this severity , are supposed to be in our communion . and i cannot believe that way to be of god , that would bring such multitudes into this miserable state . object . your very keeping them from the communion of the church , and not approving or confirming them , would as much exasperate them . answ . it 's no such matter . much it may , but not neare so much , as i certainly know by experience : those not admitted heare with hope ; but to the rejected i speak as almost hopeless , except such as were fit to live under discipline , on whom it may have its due effect . 9. and by this admitting all men without tryal and confirmation , to come unobservedly into the state of adult-christians , we breed and feed continual heart burnings against the ministers of christ ; while we are necessitated to do our work upon such unprepared souls . and how much the hatred and contempt of ministers doth conduce to the destruction of the people , satan is not ignorant , that is the diligent promoter of it . 10. by this means also we frustrate our own studies , and ministerial labours , to abundance of our people . partly by deluding them actually , in the reception of them among christians , that really are no christians , and partly by this provocation of their hatred . 11. by this means also we breed and feed abundance of controversies in the church : for when once we displace any parts of the frame , we shall find almost all in pieces , and one errour draweth on so many , that controversies grow numerous , and will never be reconciled by meere words and writings , till we actually set the church in joynt againe . 12. by this course also we lay open the ordinances of god , to a continual prophanation , while abundance that know not who christ is , nor what christianity is , are admitted as christians , to our christian communion : and so themselves are involved in more sinne , and gods own worship turned into provocation ; so that we may feare lest god should frown upon our assemblies , and withdraw the tokens of his presence , and deny his blessing to those prophaned ordinances . though the innocent may still have their share in the blessing , yet may the pastours and the guilty majority , deeply suffer by this great abuse of holy things . 13. by this means also it is that so many scruples are cast in our way , about administrations , and reception of ordinances ; and the comfort of ministers and people in them , is much abated . 14. and i doubt it is a hinderance to the conversion of many sects about us , and of many ungodly ones among us , who if they saw the primitive holiness of churches might be drawn in . 15. and it much corrupteth the communion of saints , and turneth it to another thing ; when this holy communion is so much of our duty and our comfort , and such a representation of heaven it self . 16. and if it be not a practical denial of some of the articles of our faith , it 's well . we say there , that we believe the catholike church to be holy , and that it is a communion of saints , that is by the parts of it , to be exercised . and shall we deny this in our works , which in words we profess . 17. by this means also we dishonour the work of reformation , when we hinder the fruits of it , that should be visible to the world ; and make men believe that it lieth but in a change of bare opinions . they that see no great difference between the reformed and the romanists in their lives , will think it is no great matter , which side they are joyned to . it 's noted by some protestant writers , that when luther opposed popery in germany , abundance of the common licentious people , that were weary of popish confessions , and penances , did joyne with those that were truly conscientious , and dishonoured the reformation by their lives , though they increased the number , and did the service as erasmus his gospeller , that used to carry a bottle of wine , and erasmus new testament , with great brass bosses , and when he disputed with a papist , knockt him about the pate with the bible , and so confuted him . 18. and by this means we give the papists more roome then they should have , to reproach our churches , and glory comparatively of the holiness of theirs . though i know that their glory is exceeding unreasonable , and that our impurities are no more to theirs , then a few boiles to a leprosie ; yet we do ill to give them so much occasion , as we do , who are ready to make the worst of all . 19. by this means also we leave all sects , to quarrel with us , and dispute against us , even whether we be true churches of christ or not , because our adult-profession and covenant is no more express , and discernable , then it is . and though we have enough to prove our selves a church , yet do we leave them under their temptations , and our selves under the obloquy . and indeed we perversly maintain our own dishonour , while we think it a condition to be rested in , if we can but prove our selves true churches ; when our learned divines do give as much to the romanists themselves , though not as papal , yet as christian . a leper is a true man , and yet his cure is a thing to be desired . 20. lastly , by this means also we tempt many well meaning people among us , to a dangerour separation from us , and to fly from our churches , as if they would fall on their heads ; and we too much harden those that are already separated : and all because we will not yield to the healing of our own diseases , or will do little or nothing to procure it . i know these men have no just ground for their hard conclusions , and censures of us ; but we have little reason to give them this occasion , and cast a stumbling-block in the way of so many precious souls . to what is here briefly thrust together , if the reader will adde the twelve reasons , in my christian concord , pag. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14. and what 's said in my book of right to sacraments , where these matters , or those that sustaine them , are handled more at large , i suppose he may easily be convinced , that the former church-governours , in england , have been lamentably negligent , and our churches by their means are much disordered , and that the present ministers should be more forward , and diligent , and unanimous for the cure , and that the magistrate , if he love the church of christ , and the souls of men , should speedily afford his help , and all too little to remedy these great and many evils , which we have let in , by suffering such a loose , unobserved transition from the state of infant church members , or from apostacy , into the number of adult-members , without approved profession and confirmation . prop. 20. so many and great are the benefits , that would follow the general practice of this duty , of trying , approving , and confirming ( or absolving ) all those that enter into the number of adult christians , that it should mightily provoke all christian magistrates , ministers , and people , to joyne in a speedy and vigorous execution of it . 1. one excellent fruit of this practice , will be the great increase of knowledge , and godliness , and the destruction of ignorance , and notorious impiety . this is an effect , most apparent in the causes . when men are made to understand , that by the law of god , seconded by the common consent of the church , and the most learned , godly pastours , and ( if it may be ) by the law of the land ; no man is to be accounted , or numbered with adult-christians , but those that make a sober , serious ; understanding profession of christianity , renouncing the flesh , the world , and the devil , and not contradicting , and nullifying this profession , by a wicked life ; this will engage parents , to teach their children , and children themselves to learn what christianity is , when they cannot have the name , or the honour , and the priviledges of christians , without some credible appearance of the thing . for doubtles while christianity is in credit , the same motives that now prevaile with the multitude to seeme christians , and to desire the baptism of their children , will continue then , to make them desire to be numbred with christians , when they are at age : and so will provoke them to do that , without which they know they connot be esteemed christians . and as it 's now a common thing to be baptized in infancy , so will it be then a common thing , for our young people to learn the principles of christianity , yea and to reform their lives , ( i hope with the most ) when they understand , that else they must be taken to be no christians . and if it were but the making of the understanding profession , and outside of christianity , to be commoner among us , it would be a most precious fruit of our endeavours . but much more , when true christianity it selfe , in the life and power of it , would also be more common . as no doubt but it would : for the knowledg of the letter , is the way to the receiving of the spirit : & among multitudes that have the outside of true religion , there will be far more , that have the life and soule of it , then among those that have not so much as the outside . any man in reason may foresee , that if we be openly agreed , and it be publikely enacted , or declared , that none be taken into the number of adult christians , nor admitted to their priviledges , till they have made an approved profession of christianity , and so be received by jesus christ himself , acting by his ministers , it will set all that care for the name , or hopes or privilidges of christians , to learn , and be , and do , that which they know will be so required of them . whereas , as things go now in most places , they may bring their children to baptism , without understanding what baptism is ; and those children may slide into the state of the adult-christians , and possess the name , and place , and outward communion , and other honours and priviledges of such , without knowing whether christ were a man or a woman , or who he is , or what business he came about into the world : and when no outward necessity is laid upon them by the church , to know more , or to seem better , no wonder if so many heathens do sit among christians , and if the multitude looke not much after knowledg or godliness . 2. and moreover it will be a very great helpe to their consciences , in order to the convincing them of their sinne and misery , and of the insufficiency of that condition which multitudes do now rest in ; and so to waken them to look after a safer state , and to be what they must seem to be , if they will be taken to be christians . it is a great help to the deceiving of the multitude of the ungodly , to be currantly esteemed christians , when they are not : and self-love is such a blinding thing , that a little help will go farre with it , in the promoting of such deceits . naturally men are very easily brought to think well of them selves , and hardly brought to confess their misery . every man almost will easily confess himself a sinner , and a very great sinner , so you will but allow him to be a christian , and a pardoned sinner . for this is a common confession , and brings no very terrible conclusion , and message to the soul. but when a man must confess himself , no true christian , but unsanctified , unpardoned , and a slave of satan , this is as much as to confess himself in a state of damnation , in which if he die he is lost for ever , and men are hardly drawn to believe so terrible a conclusion : when yet it is so necessary where it is true , that we can scarce imagine how a man can be saved without it . he that knoweth not himselfe to be out of his way , will hardly be perswaded to turne back : and he that knows not himself to be unpardoned , will hardly value or seek a pardon : and he that thinks he is sanctified , and a true christian already , will seek to be made what he takes himself already to be . and how much reputation doth , to help or hinder men , even in self-judging , is easily perceived . now here is a threefold reputation , of very great moment , to concurre , either for mens deception , or conversion . 1. the reputation of prince and parliament , and so of law-givers and rulers of the nation , who by their laws do manifest , whom they esteem good christians , and this the people very much look at . 2. the reputation of all the pastours of the church , which is to be manifested in their agreements , confessions , or declarations and practices . 3. the common consent of christian people , which is to be manifested by their actions , according to the laws of christ , and the direction of their guides . if magistrates , ministers and people do concurre , to repute all the infidels , and utterly ignorant , wicked men among us to be christians , how many thousand souls may this deceive , and undo for ever ? whereas , if magistrates , ministers , and people that feare god , would all agree accordng to the laws of christ , to esteem none adult-christians , but those that by a credible profession of christianity , do seem to be such , it would abundantly help to convince them of their misery , and the need of christ and grace , and the absolute necessity of a change . we see even among good men , in the case of a particular sinne , how much common reputation , doth help to hinder the work upon their consciences : among the reformed churches beyond the sea , what conscience is troubled for these actions , or omissions on the lords day , which in england would much trouble men of the same temper in other things . among several sects it troubleth them not , freely to revile the servants of christ that are against them , because they finde it rather go for commendable , then much condemnable , by those whom they most esteem . among the papists , the believing in a vice-christ , and the worshiping of his image and cross , with divine worship , and also the consecrated host , and the condemning all the churches of christ that do it not , do goe for virtues , and christian practices , though they are most haynous , odious sinnes ; and what is it but common reputation of prince and priests , and multitudes of people , that could make so many , yea and such persons as some of them are , to continue in such sinnes , as if they were a part , yea an essential part of holiness , and one generation to succeed another in them . were these sinnes but commonly reputed to be as odious as indeed they are , what a change would it make on millions of souls ? so that it 's strange to see the power of reputation . 3. moreover , this course would be an excellent help to the labours of the ministers of christ , for mens salvation . they would better understand and apply our sermons : whereas now , they lose the benefit by misapplying them . now we must labour all our lives , ( and with most , in vaine ) to make unbelievers , and ungodly persons understand what they are , and no means will serve to convince many people , that they are not truly christians , that know not what it is to be a christian , or that hate it and fight against it . when they all go together under the name of christians , what ever comforts they hear offered to believers , they take them to themselves , or mistake them as offered to them ; and all the threatnings that are uttered against unbelievers , they put by and think it is not they that they are spoken against . but if once we could but get men to stand in their own places , and to know themselves ; how easily then would our message work ? me thinks the devil should not be able , to keep one man of an hundred in his power , if they knew themselves to be in his power : nor one of an hundred , in a state of ungodliness and condemnation if they knew that they are in such a state . at least , i am sure men will not so numerously , nor easily runne into hell , when they know they are going into it , as when they are confident that they are good christians , and in the way to heaven . 4. if this foredescribed confirmation be practised , it will more powerfully oblige our people to christ , then a secret sliding into the number of adult-christians will do . and doubtless solemn engagements and obligations , have some force upon conscience , to hold men to christ , and restraine them from sinne : or else baptism it self would be much frustrate ; and the jews should not have been so often called by moses , joshua , asa , and other princes , to renew their covenant with god. but with us , men feel no such bonds upon them . and many question whether they are bound at all , by their parents promises for them in baptism . 5. the profiting of our people will be much greater in their own place : when those that are not yet fit for adult-membership , and priviledges , are kept in the place of catechumens or expectants . every thing doth thrive and prosper best in its own place : if you teare them not out of the churches wombe , till they are ready for the birth , they will prosper there , that else may perish . your corne will best prosper in the cold earth , where it seems to be dead and buried , till the springing time shall come . and you should not violently unhose the eares , till nature put them forth . the first digestion must be wrought , before the second , and nature must have time allowed it , and the stomack must not too hastily let go the food , if you would have good sanguification and nutrition follow . men think they do a great kindness to grosly ignorant , or impious men , to take them into the church before they are capable of such a station , and the work , or priviledges thereto belonging : but alas , they do but hurry them to perdition , by thrusting them out of the state , where they might have thriven in preparation to a church-state , into a state which will set them abundance of work , which they are utterly unfit for , and under the pretence of benefits and priviledges , will occasion abundance of aggravations of their sinnes . a boy in his a , b , c. will learne better in his own place , among his fellows , then in a higher form , where he hath work set him , which he is uncapable of doing . 6. by this means also church-discipline will attain its ends ; it will awe and preserve the church , and terrifie , and reduce offendours , and help them to repentance , and preserve the order of the church and gospel ; when it is exercised upon such as are capable of it ; that know the nature of it , and either are habitually diposed to profit by it , or at least understand , what it was that they were engaged to , and understandingly consent to live under such a discipline : and when it is exercised upon few , and we have not such multitudes to sweep out of the church . 7. by this means , both church-associations , and ordinances may attaine their ends ; and people will be capable of doing the duty of christians to one another , when others are capable of receiving it . church members are bound to exhort one another daily , while it is called to day , lest any be hardened by the deceitfullness of sinne , heb. 3. 13. and to teach and admonish one another , col. 3. 16. but before swine , we must not cast such pearls , nor give that which is holy to dogs , matth. 7. 6. therefore it necessarily followeth , that dogs and swine should be kept out of the church , and cast out if they be crept in . nothing hath more destroyed that charitable community , which should be among the members of the church , and that loving and relieving christ in church-members , then the crowding of such into the place , as indeed are satans members , and appeare not capable of that special love , nor are capable of returning it to others . 8. this will make easy the ministers work , and free him from abundance of hatred , trouble , and disadvantage , when like a workmans tooles in his shop , that all are in their place , and so at hand when he should use them , so his hearers are in order , and each one lookes but for his portion , and none are snatching at our fingers , for the childrens bread , that belongs not to them , and men be not drawn to hate and raile at ministers , for not fullfiling their desires . 9. by this means also , the ordinances will be more purely administred , agreeably to their nature , and the institution : and so god will bless them more to his church , and own his people , with the fuller discoveries of his presence , and take pleasure in the assemblies and services of his saints . 10. by this means also , the communion of the saints , ( and the holy ordinances of god ) will be abundantly more sweet to his servants , when we have it in the appointed way , and it is not imbittered to us , by the pollutions of infidels , and notorious ungodly men . though yet i know , that in a negligent polluted church , gods servants may have their share of comfort , in his ordinances , when they have done their own duty for reformation , without success . 11. by this means the church , and the christian religion will be more honorable in the eyes of the world , who judge by the members and professours lives , before they can judge of the thing as in it self : and as christ will be thus honoured , and the mouths of adversaries of all sorts stopped , so it will do much to further their conversion , when they have such a help to see the beauty of the church and christian faith. many more such benefits i would name , but that you may gather some of them , from what was said of the contrary incommodities : only i adde 13. lastly , it is a way that is admirably suited both to reformation , and reconciliation ; to unity , as well as purity : which removeth many of the impediments , that else would trouble us in the way . for as all wicked men will agree against it , as they will against any holy practice , so all parties considerable among us , do in their doctrine and professions owne it ; and it will suit the principles , or the ends of all that fear god , either wholly of very farre . i shall here distinctly shew you , 1. that the episcopal : 2. presbyterians : 3. independants : 4. anabaptists : 5. yea and i may put in , the papists themselves , have no reason to be against this practice ; but all of them have great reason to promote it , supposing them to be what they are . 1. that it is so far agreeable with the doctrine of the church of england , that our episcopal party have reason to be for it , appeareth : 1. by the rubricke , for confirmation , in the common-prayer book , which saith as followeth , the curate of every parish , or some other at his appointment , shall diligently upon sundaies and holydaies , halfe an houre before evening , prayer , openly in the church , instruct and examine so many children of his parish , sent unto him , as the time will serve , and as he shall think convenient , in some part of this catechism . and all fathers , mothers , masters , and dames , shall cause their children , servants , and prentices ( which have not learned their catechism ) come to the church at the time appointed , and obediently to hear , and be ordered by the curate , until such time as they have learned , all that is appointed here for them to learn. and whensoever the bishop shall give knowledg , for children to be brought before him , to any convenient place for their confirmation , then shall the curate of every parish , either bring , or send in writing , the names of all those children of his parish , which can say the articles of the faith , the lords prayer , and the ten commandements , and also how many of them can answer to the other questions , contained in this catechism . and there shall none be admitted to the holy communion , till such time as he can say the catechism , and be confirmed . so that you see we must not admit any , but the confirmed to the sacrament . and i suppose in common reason , they will extend this to the aged , as well as unto children , seing ignorance in them is more intollerable : and indeed the words themselves exclude the unconfirmed , and that cannot say the catechism , from the sacrament , of what age soever . 2. and i may take it for granted , that it is not bare saying the catechism , that they expect , but also a profession that they owne their baptismal covenant to god the father , sonne , and holy ghost : and also that it be a profession somewhat understood ; and not barely to say the words which they understand not , as a parot doth . and this i prove to be their meaning , ( yea and also that they live a christian life ) from the prayer in confirmation , adjoyned , which is this ; almighty and everlasting god , who hast vouchsafed to regenerate these thy servants by water and the holy ghost , and hast given unto them forgiveness of all their sinnes ; strengthen them , we beseech thee o lord with the holy ghost the comforter , and daily increase in them the mani old gifts of grace , the spirit of wisdom and vnderstanding , the spirit of counsell , and ghostly strength , the spirit of knowledg and true godliness . so that here you see that the church of england supposeth all those that are to be confirmed , to have already the holy ghost , and the spirit of wisdom , understanding , counsell , knowledg , and true godliness : which they beg of god , as to an increase only for the confirmed . and sure they do not think that every notorious , ungodly man , hath the spirit of true godliness , if he can but say the catechism ; or that every ignorant person or infidel hath the spirit of knowledg , wisdom , &c. as soon as he can speak the words which he understands not . and in the following prayer they say , we have laid our hands on them , to certifie them ( by this signe ) of thy favour and gracious goodness towards them . and sure they will not think to certifie men that know not what christianity is , or that live not christian lives , for this favour of god towards them , meerly because they say the words which they do not understand . so that if they will but let men understand what they do , and make good what is here expressed , we are agreed with them that stand for common-prayer , that such as are unconfirmed be not admitted to the holy communion . and as for the person confirming , i shall speak to that anon . 2. i will next speake of the papists , because in their words i shall have opportunity to recite some more of our own , even those of the canons convocat . london , an. 1603. c. 60. i will pass by frans . de s. clara , and such reconcilers , lest you say , that is not the common judgment of the papists : and at this time it may suffice to instance in one , that most petulant , insolent jesuite , hen. fitz simon , in his britanomach . lib. 3. cap. 4. pag. 289 , 290 , 291. where he reciteth the words of our canon , that seing it was a solemn , ancient , laudable custom in the church of god , observed even from the daies of the apostles , that all bishops laying hands on those that were baptized in infancy , and are instructed in the catechism of the christian religion , should pray over them , and bless them , which we commonly call confirmation , — we will and ordaine that every bishop , or his suffragane , do in their proper person , diligently observe this right and custom , in their ordinary visitation . to which saith the jesuite , what do i heare ? — all this is very orthodox , very catholike , if uttered in good sadness — and citing the rubricke before-mentioned , he mentioneth the conference at hampton court , pag. 10 , 11 , 32 , 33. that the doctrine of confirmation was part of the apostles catechism , rashly rejected by some churches , but in calvins judgment to be taken up againe , and is ungrateful to the puritans only , because they may not themselves administer it . and pag. 64. he would perswade us , that most certainly the bishops borrowed this passage from the rhemists test . annot. in heb. 6. 2. against the puritans . more he adds from resp . oxon. ad libel . supplic . covell , &c. and concludes , all this the formalistes ( as he constantly calls that party ) do freely grant us , then which the catholikes themselves , as to the sound of the words , seem scarce able to thinke , or speak any thing more honourable of confirmation . and that you may see how farre he accepts also of calvins concession , he doth with ostentation cite the words of calvin , in act. 2. and instit . lib. 4. cap. 19. § . 28. that it's incredible that the apostles should use imposition of hands , but by chrsts command : and that it was not an empty signe , and that it is to be accounted for a sacrament . so that these two parties cannot be against us , in the matter of confirmation , though i know that the papists are against us , for laying by their ceremonies and abuse of it . 3. and as for the presbyterians , they cannot be against it : for 1. the most eminent divines of that judgment , have written for it , of whom i could cite abundance : but calvin , hyperius , and others , cited by mr. hanmer already , sufficiently declare their desires , after the restoring of confirmation : and chemnitius a lutheran is large for it , and others of that way . 2. and it is so clearly usefull and necessary to the reforming of distempers in the church , and the quiet of the ministry , and the safe and succesfull exercise of discipline , that i know they will heartily consent to it . 4. and for the congregational party , 1. some of them have declared their judgments for it , in the approving or promoting mr hanmer's book . 2. and i have spoke with some of the most eminent of that mind , that are for it . 3. and the solemn covenant or profession , which they require of all that enter among them , as church-members , doth shew that they are for it in the substance , though how far they like , or dislike the signe of imposition of hands i know not . it is the want of this , that they are so much offended with in our parish-church , and therefore doubtless they will consent . 5. and for anabaptists , though we cannot expect their full consent , because they admit not infants into the visible church , and therefore baptise those whom we confirme or restore , yet doubtless they will like this as next to that which they suppose to be the right : and because we come as neare to them as is fit and lawfull for us to do , it is the likeliest way to abate their censures , and procure with them so much peace , as in reason may be expected , with men that differ from us in the point of infant-baptism . three sorts of them , i suppose we may meet with : 1. some that grant that infants are christs disciples , christian , and vissible church-members , but yet think that baptism is not for their admission , but only for the adult . i confess i know of none so moderate , nor am i sure there are any such , but by hearsay , or conjecture : but if there be , our differences with these men would be most in the external signe . if they do but as much by infants , as the express words of the gospel do commend , and christ chid his disciples for opposing , that is , if they yield that they shall be offered unto christ , and that the minister of christ do in his name , receive them , lay his hands on them , and bless them , because of such is the kingdom of god ; and then baptize them , when at age they make a personal profession ; and if we on the other side offer them to christ , and the minister in his name accept them by baptism , and at age confirm them , upon their personal covenanting or profession , the difference here would be most , that they change the outward signe , and they use imposition of hands when we use baptism , and we use baptism when they use impsition . and with such it were easy for moderate men to hold brotherly love and peace . 2. some we shall meet with , that deny infants to be visible church-members , and yet think the infants of believers , to have some promises more then the rest of the world , or at least that they are candidati christianismi , expectants of a church-state , and are as soone as they understand any thing , to be bred up as catechumens in the church seminaries , and to be baptizd , as soone as they are actual believers . and as far as i understand them , some of them will consent that they be offered and dedicated to god in infancy , and solemnly received , by ministerial imposition of hands , into the state of expectants . if these men be of peaceable , moderate spirits , and agree with us in other matters of religion ( in the substance at least ) they must needs acknowledg , that in the foredescribed practice of confirmation , we come so neere them , that they cannot deny us brotherly love and peace . for i hope they will not think , that they may lawfully deny these ( yea or their communion ) to all that be not punctually of their opinion , against the church-membership and baptism of infants . 3 and as for all the rest of the anabaptists , that hold also the doctrine of pelagianism , or socinianism , or libertinism , or familism , or quakers , or heathenism , they are not in a capacity for us , to treat with about accomodation , or christian peace . but yet , as to all the intemperate , dividing , unpeaceable anabaptists , that will but reproach us for our drawing so neer them , at least we shall have this advantage against their reasonings , that we shall be far better able to manifest the variety of them , then otherwise we could do . for whereas their common argument against infant baptism is , that it defileth the church , by letting in all the children in the nation , which must be cast out againe , or the most will be openly vile ; and that it defraudeth the adult of the benefits of solemn engagement to christ ; all this will be taken off by confirmation , and will lie no more on us , then on themselves , seeing by this means , we can as faithfully hold the church door against the adult , that are unfit to enter into the number , as they can . and here i shall intreat the moderate , godly persons among us , that are of the episcopal , presbyterian , congregational , or erastian judgment , yea and the first and second sort of anabaptists , to consider how neerly we are all agreed , or how neer to an agreement , when we are not aware of it , or live at such a distance , as if we were not aware of it : and whether it be not our duty to close upon this practice , at least much nearer then we are ? it is a sad and fearfull case , when men professing godliness , and all pretending to a love of unity , peace and holiness , shall hate or oppose each other , and separate from each other , upon a pretence that we differ in things that we are agreed in ; and when such shall perswade the common enemies , and the ignorant people , that we differ where we do not : as if the enemy had not already matter enough of reproach against us , nor the ignorant matter enough of temptation and offence , but we must falsly give them more , by seeming to differ when there is no such thing . and if this becaused , by any mens hating their own principles , when they see them in anothers hand , or yet by hating the practice of their own principles , i leave it to the consideration of sober men , whether such are liker to the ministers of christ , or satan . give me leave here a little , by way of application , to review what i said concerning our accord . 1. how much many brethren of the episcopal judgment , do censure other mens attempts , for reforming their congregations , is too open to be hid . but how little cause they have to be offended with any moderate attempts , let their own forecited principles be judge . i know that it is the administration or government of the churches , that seems by the noise of opposition among us , to be the greatest point of differences : but as far as i can descern , it is not so . the constitution of our curches is the great difference : it 's a shame to speake it : we differ most where we are agreed . i have so much experience of the minds of godly ministers , and private men in england , that i dare boldly say , would we but all agree in practice , in the constituting our churches of due materials , where for ought i know , we are almost all agreed in principles , there were no probability , that all the rest of our disagreements , would keep us at a quarter of the distance as we are . truly the common , honest , godly people , stick not much on the difference in formalities , and extrinsick modes of government : if they heare a minister pray heartily , preach soundly , judiciously and powerfully , live holily and righteously , and charitably , and beate down sinne , and set himself to promote true piety , they are ( commonly where i am acquainted ) if not indifferent what form of government he is for , yet at least , can easily beare with him , though he differ from them . let us have the work of god well done , and we shall care the less who it is that doth it . the greatest offence , that commonly is taken against episcopacy is , 1. the former viciousness , negligence and persecution , that men of that way were guilty of ; and 2. because men know that a diocesan bishop hath so much work upon his hands , that he will certainly leave the far greatest part undone . so that the question is not so much who shall do the work , as whether it shall be done or not . but now if this principle were practised , in which we are agreed , about confirmation , or at least , a publicke profession , that so our churches might be constituted of fit materials , and not be pestered with so many infidels , or persons so ignorant as that they know not christ ; or persons so notoriously vicious , as that they are openly bruitish and prophane , and make a very scorne of honesty and godliness , this would do much to heale all the rest of our divisions . the country knows , that the reason why the multitude of ignorant , ungodly people are for episcopacy , is principally because they think that government will do as it did , and rather curbe the precisians ( as they call them ) then them , and will not trouble them with a differencing discipline or administrations , nor urge them so hard to labour for knowledg , and live a godly life . take away this conceit from them , by the faithfull practice of your own principles , and they will hate you as much as others . what great satisfaction would you give to all that fear god among us , if you would practise but that which the rubricke of the common-prayer book requireth of you , in this one point ? for it requireth not only a learning of the catechism but also a publike owning of their baptismal covenant in the face of the congregation , and a solemn promise to live a holy , obedient life : and this at full age ; and after this they must be confirmed , before they be admitted to the sacrament of the eucharist . that it may appeare how fully we are agreed in this point , i shall transcribe some more of the rubricke of confirmation , which is as followeth . the reasons given , why none shall be confirmed , till they can answer such questions of the catechism , as they shall be apposed in , are these , 1. because that when children come to the years of discretion , and have learned what their godfathers and godmothers promised for them in baptism , they may then themselves with their own mouth , and with their own consent , openly before the curch ratifie and confirme the same ; and also promise , that by the grace of god they will evermore endeavour themselves , faithfully to observe and keep such things as they by their own mouth and confession have assented unto . 2. forasmuch as confirmation is ministred to them that be baptised , that by imposition of hands and prayer they may receive strength and defence , against all temptations to sinne , and the assaults of the world and the devil , it is most meet to be admitted , when children come to that age , that partly by the frailty of their own flesh , partly by the assaults of the world and the devil , they begin to be in danger , to fall into sundry kinds of sinne . 3. for that it is agreeable with the usage of the church in times past : whereby it was ordained , that confirmation should be ministred to them that were of perfect age , that they being instructed in christs religion , should openly profess their own faith , and promise to be obedient to the will of god. this , with what was before cited shews , that in this main point we are agreed with the brethren of the episcopal judgment , and therefore may expect their concurrence : and to that end , we desire them to promote the practice of their own principles : and let us not leave the work of god undone , while we strive who shall do it or rather who shall not do it . if the canons allow the bishops suffragane to do it , you may beare with others of the same order to do it , rather then leave it undone . 2. and for the presbyterians , i intreat them to consider , 1. h●w much the faithfull practise of this duty , will put by all the offence and mistaking-reasons of the erastians , who ask them so earnestly , how they can prove that people must be examined by the minister , in order to the lords supper , any more then in order to a day of thanksgiving ? i know it is an easy matter , to prove that a pastour may call his people to private , personal instruction , at any fit season ; and therefore before a sacrament when he sees just cause : and they are bound to obey him , ordinarily , by virtue of the general precept , heb. 13. 17. obey them that rule over you , &c. but if you make this the season and use of your examination , to admit men out of a state either of catechumens , or infant-members , into the number of adult-members , and never trouble them afterward with examinations , unless upon some special occasion , or in your ordinary course of personal instruction , this would put by the opposition of gainlayers ; and i think , satisfie all of them that have any sober considerations and love to the prosperity of the church . 2. and consider also how much this way would facilitate your course of discipline : you would be much more clearly satisfied , who are your church-members , and of your special charge , and on whom you are specially bound to exercise discipline , and to whom you owe your special care and labour : and your people will be better satisfied then now they are , both of the quality , and regular reception of members , and who they be , to whom they owe the special duty of members , and whom they are more specially bound to communicate their worldly goods in their necessity . how much uncertainty , confusion , dissatisfiedness and neglect of duty , remaineth in those congregations , where this work is quite ommitted , is obvious to common observations . 3. and if any should have a jealousie of this designe , as seeming to set up the congregational way of covenanting , i intreat such to remember ; 1. what an enemy to the unity of the church , and how unbeseeming a charitable christian , a spirit of causeless jealousie is . 2. that it should be the more gratefull to you , because it is acceptable to your brethren : if you are lovers of unity and peace , you will be far from avoiding a practice , because those hold it with whom you would be united , that is , because it tends to unity ; but rather you will be glad of such a healing means . 3. consider that it is no more the congregational mens principle , then the episcopal , presbyterians and the erastians . it is our common principle , let us therefore make it our common practice ; an easy , a reasonable way of agreement . the not practising of this hath cast us into confusions ; and the practise of it must be it , that must restore our church order , and heale most of our divisions . i know it is agreeable to your judgments . i move you not to forsake your principles , but to practice them . do but enrol those only for your adult church-members , that are confirmed , or approve , upon a personal credible profession , of true christianity , and consent to live under your ministerial discipline ; and it will do more , then you can easily now apprehend , for an union with your brethren , and for the closing of the sad , and long-continued divisions of the churches . 3. and to the congregational brethren , i may boldly say , it is a practice so suitable to your own practice already , ( though i think it is a more regular performance of it that i propound , then most have used ) that in reason we may expect your approbation and concurrence . perhaps you 'l feare that some of your brethren may slubber over the work , and make but a ceremony of it : but so may some of your own mind , if they be personally remiss and negligent , as well as others . and perhaps others will feare lest you shonld use it over rigorously , and make it a pretence for excluding many that are not to be excluded . but this will be according to the prudence , and charity of particular pastours ; and is nothing to those principles , in which we are all agreed . only i beseech you in the feare of god , take heed of giving just occasion of this offence . be not righteous overmuch : remember how tender christ is of his litle ones : and how he is displeased with those that keep them from him : and will not break the bruised reed : if he carry the lambs in his armes , and gently drive those that are with-young , it beseemes not us to turn them out of the fold , or to disowne them . we are commanded to receive him that is weak in the faith , though not to doubtfull disputations , rom. 15. 1. it 's a conjunction of impiety , injustice and uncharitableness , to thrust back those that christ would have admitted . it 's impiety , to rob christ of his church-members , and diminish his visible flock , and wrong those whom he values as his jewels , and is tender of , as the apple of his eye . it is great injustice , to defraud men of their due , in so great a matter as his church-priviledges and helps to heaven . it 's greater injustice , then to turn them out of their houses and lands ; for the benefits are greater . it 's vncharitableness , to deale so cruelly with us , in matters of such consequence . and it 's the greater , 1. because it is none of our own , but our masters treasure which we deny them . 2. and because we are conscious , if we are christians indeed , of so much sinne and unworthyness our selves , as should provoke us to deale the more tenderly and compassionately with others . i would not have you blind under pretence of charity , nor to let in known swine , for feare of keeping out the sheep . but remember that when the case is but so doubtfull and difficult , that you cannot know certainly the tares from the wheat , or cannot make a separation without a danger of pulling up the wheate with the tares , it 's better let both alone till harvest . we will not be wilfully guilty of mens lying , or hypocritical professions : but if they be guilty of them , we may yet believe , that god hath much service for hypocrites in his church . and the number shall be some honour to him ; and some encouragement to some that are yet without , to draw neerer us . though it be the intention of christ in instituting his ordinances , and the intention of the church , that men be truly penitent believers before they are baptized ( at age ) or admitted into the number of adult church-members , and to the lords table ; and so never made the eucharist an ordinance which is primarily and directly intended for conversion of the unregenerate , and which known ungodly men may seeke , and be admitted to , in order to their conversion : ( bellarmin himself confessing that such come into the church praeter intentionem ecclesiae ) yet christ that knew abundance of unsound professours would thrust themselves into the church , hath provided those ordinances there , which conduce much to their regeneration : and even the lords supper , though instituted primarily for another use , may be a means of this , to those that yet unworthily drew neer it . however , if we be commanded to invite , yea and compel men to come in to the church , that the house of christ may be filled , we must not be too scrupulous in admitting them , nor to busy in keeping them back . if any where , it 's here that christ is like to say , odi servum nimis diligentem . if men make a credible profession , i dare not refuse them : nor dare i by my uncharitable incredulity , take that for incredible , which i cannot prove to be so . his profession is the evidence of his title with the church . if i will deny him when he seeks admittance , i must disprove that profession , and shew it to be invalid . truly much experience hath taught me , that many that were never commonly noted for godliness , and that through bashfulness , or want of expressions , or the hinderance of carnal friends , and worldly affaires , have lived as strangers to those that are eminent for the feare of cod , have yet at last , disclosed themselves to me , to have been humble , serious christians many years , as far as i was able to judge . especially take heed how you slight or reject people for want of parts , or gifts , or utterance . i have known excellent christians , that through bashfulness are not able to give an account of their knowledg of the very fundamentals of religion , to a person whom they much reverence , and are in awe of . and i meet with many ignorant people , that in answer to many of my questions do seem to be ignorant of christ himself , who yet shew the contrary , when by other words , i have caused them better to understand me . if people be but desirous , and willing and diligent , it must be very gross ignorance indeed , that must warrant us to refuse them . many thousands are guilty of wrong intruding into the church , when the ministers and church were not guilty of wrong admitting them , but had been culpable if they had refused them . i speak all this to the congregational brethren rather then the rest , because they are most suspected to be overstrict in their admissions ; and because i would intreate them , to avoid all just occasions of offence and disunion in their practise , when we are all so happily agreed in our principles , in this great point , of the necessity of an approved profession . 4. and for the erastians , as in the point of discipline , they commonly contend with us upon a meer mistake , thinking we claime a proper imperium , or magisterial power , when as we claime but the power of an embassadour , with such a kind of power , as a physician hath over his patients , or as plato or zeno had in their schooles , ( besides the ministerial power in worshiping ) so their principal quarrel with us , will be removed by the practice of confirmation . you talk much of the sacraments being converting ordinances , and against examining men in order to the lords supper , and keeping men away . but are you not agreed with us , that a personal understanding , serious profession of christianity , even of faith , and repentance ( which conteineth a renouncing the flesh , the world , and the devil ) is necessary to those that will ( either by baptism or confirmation ) be admitted into the number of adult-members of the church ? and do you not grant that the adult , whether before baptism or confirmation , are to be tried and approved by the pastours , before they baptize them , or confirm them ? grant us but this ( and that the ancient discipline should be exercised in the church , which the scriptures and all the church canons do record ) and wee shall be agreed with you in a moment . for baptism we are no stricter then the common-prayer book , that required that the party ( by him self or others ) did promise and vow 1. to forsake the devil and all his works , the pomps and vanities of the wicked world , and all the sinfull lusts of the flesh . 2. to believe all the articles of the christian faith. 3. to keep gods holy will and commandements , and walk in the same all the daies of his life . that so , it may be truly said of the baptized , that he is made a member of christ , a child of god , and an inheritour , ( or heir ) of the kingdom of heaven : and of the confirmed , we expect but that which is here said to be given and assured in baptism , viz. a death unto sinne , and a new birth unto righteousness ; that being by nature born in sinne , and the children of wrath , we are hereby made the children of grace : yea we expect but what is required of persons to be baptized ; viz. repentance whereby they forsake sinne ; and faith , whereby they stedfastly believe the promises of god made to them in that sacrament . all these are the words of the catechism in the common-prayer book . yea we expect but that open profession before the congregation , which the forecited rubricke of confirmation requireth : no nor alway so much as that . so that i may well suppose , that no godly , moderate man of the erastian way , can dissent from us in this point of confirmation : and a consent in this , will be next to a consent in all , between us and them . 5. and for the anabaptists themselves , though we evpect not their consent , yet we may well expect their moderation , and non-opposition , and that as we thus draw as neer them , as possibly ( in our present judgment ) we can , so they would lay by all bitterness and reproach , and divisive carriage , and come as neer us as they can . and as now with the more moderate of them , our difference appeareth less then many of them imagined , so it may appear , that the distance in affection and communion shall be no greater then there is cause . the odium of division , and unpeaceableness , hath so long laine upon their party , that methinks they should be willing to have it taken off . and there is no way to take it off , but their visible amendment : by becoming lovers and promoters of union , communion , and peace among the churches of christ . men will never take your opinion to be of god , while general experience shall shew them , that it will not stand with that love , union , and communion of the saints , but engageth almost all that receive it , in divisions , opposition , and reproach , of the servants of christ and his churches . though you think your own opinion right , let it not so farre dispossess you of charity , and reason , as to unchurch all the churches of christ , that thinke otherwise , or to cast off communion with the godly , that are not of your opinion ; as long as we come so near you , as to take none into the number of adult church-members , but those that are confirmed , or approved by christs ministers , upon their personal , credible profession of faith and holiness . lay all this together , and we may well conclude , that this practice of ministerial approbation , and confirmation , ( or restoration ) of all that are admitted into the number of adult-christians , or visible church-members , and to their priviledges , is so necessary , and so admirably fitted , both for reformation , and reconciliation , of the episcopal , presbyterian , independants , erastian and moderate anabaptists , and to stop the mouths of the intemperate , and of the papists , that all magistra●es , ministers and people , that love the churches purity and peace , and long to see it clensed and healed , should gladly embrace it , and vigorously promote it it . i have two things yet more to do upon this subject . 1. to answer some objections , and 2 to give some directions to all sorts , for the effectual putting it in execution . the objections are these . object . 1. you will tempt the anabaptists to say , that this is but a shift of our own devising , instead of baptism , lest we should yield to them , when we are convinced of the necesity of a personal covenanting by the adult . answ . there is no ordinance or truth of god , that will not be spoken against by mistaking men : and yet we must not therefore cast them away . nor is it the way to vindicate a truth or ordinance from reproach , to disclame it , and so to reproach it actually our selves . nor is it the way to get advantage of an adversary , to fly fom him too far into the contrary extreame , but rather to come as neare him as the truth will give us leave . and to the anabaptists objection , we shall give them our reasons against their way , in a fitter place , and have already done it . we are most certain that the servants of god of old ( both with circumsion and without it , deut. 29. ) did enter their children into covenant with god , as well as themselves . and if it be the express word of god , that both infants and aged should be entered and engaged to him in covenant , we will obey his word , and do both , though the anabaptists will do but the one . he must have a hard face , that will deny that it was once the duty of parents , to offer their children to god , and enter them into covenant with him : and when they have proved that this duty or power is recalled , ( which i never yet saw done , no not in mr. tombes his last voluminous review ) then we will forbeare it ; but till then it is not mens talk and confident words , that must make a tender conscience yield , to omit so great and plain a duty , or give up so great a mercy as this is . i am sure that infants were then no more able to believe themselves , nor enter themselves in covenant with god then now : and i am sure the parents by gods appointment , did it for them , offering and engageing them to god , and that god hereupon is called their god , and they his people : and that usually the signe of the covenant was annexed . and i am sure that parents have as much natural interest in their children now as then : and i never yet saw where god had acquit us of this duty , or withdrawn this mercy from us , and our seed . object . 2. the proof which you bring for this confirmation is so obscure , that it is not like to be generally received . answ . it was generally received in almost all the churches on earth , till lately : and as far as i plead for it , it is yet doctrinally at least owned and maintained , even by those churches that practically have disused it of all the christians on earth , i suppose there is a thousand if not ten thousand for it , ( doctrinally or dogmatically ) for one that is against it , if we judge by the laws , confessions , and writings of their guides . though the greeks i know do not own the popish confirmation , nor have it not so formally as they should , and the papists have corrupted it by their abuse ; yet the thing in substance is owned dogmatically by almost all the christian world : and they must be very singular persons that disowne it . 2. and i think the proofe that hath been given you is clearer , then you have for the morality of the lords day , for constant family prayer , for infant baptism , and many a holy duty , which yet we have sufficient proof for . what would you have plainer ? is there the least doubt of it , whether a presonal profession and covenanting with god , be necessary to him that will be taken into the number of adult christians , and possess their priviledges and communion ? or whether this profession must be approved by the pastour , of the church , and known to them that must hold communion with him ? prove if you can , that ever one man was admitted among adult-christians , to enjoy communion with them , without such a personal profession . you cannot prove it . if infant-covenanting were enough for the adult , then infidels are believers . 3. object ▪ but this will make ministers to be lords of the church : when no man can be taken into the church , or possess the priviledges of a christian , till he be approved by them this will put a tyrannical power into their hands . answ . 1. such a tyranical power as every physician hath , who may choose or refuse his patients ; or every school-master hath that may choose or refuse his schollars , if he engage not himself to the contrary , as plato , zeno , and every philosopher did in his schoole . 2. it is such a tyranny as christ hath unquestionably set up ; and to accuse him of setting up tyranny , is an unkind part of them that look to be saved by him . 3. it is a power that hath constantly been exercised by the officers of christ , and did not men smel out the tyranny of it till now ? what prince did govern the church doores , and judge who should be admitted , from the daies of christ , till constantines daies , when the church was at the purest ; yea or ever after for many a hundred yeares ? did not all the apostles , and every preacher of the gospel baptize those that they convetred , and judge of them whether they were baptizable ? and did not the bishops confirm the baptized , without consulting another power ? half that were admitted into the church by baptism , ( and more ) for some hundred yeares after christ , were the adult : and of these , the pastour required a personal covenant and profession . the other half were their infants : and for them they required the parents profession , and entering them into covenant : but still the pastours were the judges , who were the administers . 4. if you think it too much power for us , i beseech you think it too much work for us : and dreame not that we have a work , and not power to do it , or discern what we do . set others to do it , that you can better trust . 5. who would you have trusted with this power ? some body must have it . i have proved to you fully , that every man must not be the sole judge of his own fitness for baptism or church priviledges : and that the people or magistrates are not the sole or chief judges : and who should it be but they , to whom it is committed by christ in their call to the office of the ministry ? 6. ministers ( as i before shewed ) have no tyrannical or arbitrary power . for christ hath tied them by a law , who to admit , and whom to reject . and if they disobey this law , the magistrate may correct them : so that in the exercise of this tyrannical power , every minister is under the lash of the magistrates violence , ( if he grosly offend ) whereas none of the people are under any violence , or force from us to obey us ; but if all of them disobey us and rebel , it is their own loss , and we have no remedy . this is the tyranny . 7. lastly , if you think it ( as it is ) so great a power , for us to judge of mens profession and fitness for church priviledges , let it awaken you the more , to get the wisest , ablest men you can for the ministry , that are fit for so a great trust . if the best that are to be got , are not in the office , beshrew our governours , and the choosers . and if you do not cast us all out , if you can put fitter men into the place , that are meeter for the trust , beshrew you for your negligence : we give you no thanks for it . but if you have no fitter for this work and trust , will you cast it upon unfitter or on none ? it is a great trust for a physician to be trusted with your lives , and a school-master and tutour with your children ? but what of that ? will you therefore trust the good women , or common neighbours about you with them ; yea or the magistrate himself . or will you have no tutours or physicians ? or rather will you not be the more careful to keep our empiricks and unworthy persons , and get the ablest and faithfulest that you can . o unthankfull men , that grudge us the power of labouring and spending our selves for their salvation , and judging , where we must act ! 4. object . is it not the use of the lords supper to confirm us ; and do not men there renew their covenant and profession ? what need is there then of any more ? answ . 1. you would think much , if at the lords supper we should openly call each man to a personal , explicite profession of his faith , and covenanting with god : and indeed it would be a tedious , as well as unseasonable work . it is but a general or joynt profession of all together , that is there renewed : and notwithstanding that , there may for ought we know , be many a one there that is an infidel , and knoweth not what christianity is . 2. the lords supper is the food of the soul , confirming by way of nutrition and augmentation ; and therefore you must shew that you are alive , before you may partake of it . it is a feasting upon christ , and with him in his family , and at his table : it is a work of communion with christ and with his saints : it is one of the highest priviledges of the church : and therefore you must produce your little , before you can lay claim to it . if a man must be admitted to the lords supper , without any precedent , personal profession or covenanting with god , upon supposition , that by the act of receiving he doth all this ; then men that know not whether there be a christ , or what he is , may be admitted : for multitudes of such there are , that in infancy were baptized : and i know not by seeing him receive , whether he know or believe any thing of christianity . if a man converted at age from heathenism , may not be admitted to the lords table without a personal profession in baptism , then neither may such as are baptized in infancy , be admitted without a personal profession , in confirmation , or such as is without any other baptism . our parents profession will not serve our turn , in stead of our own when we come to age . and therefore this objection is vaine , unless infidels may be admitted to communion , and all be common . but i need not speak much of this , because i shall have few such objectours to deale with : even the papists themselves are many of them against promiscuous communion , though the jesuites of late , have fitted almost all their work , to their man pleasing designe : see joh. thauleri flores . cap. 23 , & 24 pag. 257 , &c. ( an old puritane , among the papists ) and they make confession also prerequisite . object . 5. according to our arguing , confirmation is not necessary to those that were baptized at full age ; and therefore it is not necessary to any , if not to all . answ . i have given some reasons why it should be used , with all that have opportunity after baptism ; but i have proved it more necessary to those that were baptized in infancy . and if it were necessary to no other , it would not follow , that it is not necessary at all , because not to all . 6. object . is it not better take up with an implicit profession and covenanting , then make so great a trouble to our selves , and disturbance among the people , as this will make ? answ . 1. me thinks , not only the face of the roman church , but of our own , might by this time have afforded us satisfying experience , what implicit faith , and implicit professions are , and to what they tend . peruse the forementioned evils of this course , and look upon the state of our people , where you may see them in existence , and then judge whether this objection be answered . 2. an implicit profession , is the lowest and least , that in any case of extremity or necessity can be thought tolerable , and accepted by god , and consistent with the life and being of a church . and shall we deliberately choose to offer god the worst , the least , the lowest that 's possible to find acceptance ? nay he will have the best , as he deserves the best , or he will not accept it , when we have it to give : shall we think that in a case of freedom , the same will be accepted , which necessity only can excuse ? or shall we be content that our churches have as many diseases as will consist with life and being ? 3. an implicit profession makes or proves men but implicit●ly christians . such dumbe uncertaine signes , do leave us in so great uncertainty of the thing signified , that it seems but a very mocking of god ( that will not be mocked ) when we have opportunity for an open intelligible profession , and will not use it , or require it . 4. it is against nature for a man that hath a tongue in his head , to refuse to utter his mind any other wise then by dumb shews , and yet expect to be understood and accepted . what is the tongue made for but to express the mind ? indeed if a man be dumb , and can neither speak not write , it is more tollerable to take an uncertaine signe from such a man ; then from another that hath the use of tongue or pen. 5. it is a very implicite denying of christ , which many call an implicite profession . if a man that hath a tongue in his mouth , shall refuse to profess the christian faith and quarrel with the minister that calls him to it , and say , we shall have no other profession from him then to come to church , and put the bread and wine into his mouth , and not to deny christ expresly , i leave it to any reasonable man , whether there be not so much of an implicite denying christ in this refusing to confess him , when they are called to it by their pastours , whom god hath commanded them to obey , and that in a case and season , when all the church hath required it , or taught it to be due . 6. it is contrary to the honour of christ , and the very nature of christianity , for men to take up with implicite , uncertaine professions , when we have opportunity of more open free professions . he is not a master to be ashamed of . and he will have no servants that will not confess him before men , even in the hazzard of life ; much more in daies of the freedom of the gospel : as with the heart men must believe to righteousness , so with the mouth confession is made unto salvation , rom. 10. 10. what reason have we to whisper or draw back , in a cause of such a nature and weight as this . 7. shall we thus teach our people to esteem christianity , as an unobservable thing , by no more observing it ? the solemnity of mens transition into the adult-state of actual believers , doth make it more observable in the eyes of men ; and they will see that there is more in it , then commonly is now esteemed . i find by experience that our people hate no preaching more , then differencing preaching , which leaves or shuts them out from the number of the sanctified , and sets them as one the left-hand , in the face of the congregation , and judgeth them before the time : but faine they would have ministry confound and jumble all together : and then you may make them as great sinners as you will , so you will make them no worse then the justified , that are forgiven , and shall be saved . and so in practice , they love no differencing waies : but shall we so far gratifie the devil and the flesh ? no : we must labour to make the difference between christs servants and the world , as conspicuous as we can ! that the consciences of poor sinners , may rather be wakened , then cheated by us : and therefore we should choose the most solemn transition , and record the names of the confirmed , and let the people be brought to a publike observation , of the necessity of faith and holiness , while the covenant and profession of it is made so necessary . 8. that is the best means , that is fittest to attain the end ; the end of a covenant is to oblige , and the end of a profession to declare the mind : and i pray you which is fittest for these ends : an express profession and covenant , or a dumbe uncertain signe , by coming to church ; paying tithes ? &c. 9. such dumb professions are less tolerable now , because we have many in our assemblies that we know to be no christians . i know of many that will heare , that believe no life to come , and secretly make a scorne of christ and scripture , and many more that know not what christianity is , as is aforesaid . now shall we take up with such signes of christianity , as we see and know are commonly used by infidels , when we may have better ? 10. it is essential to a profession to be in some measure explicit : for profiteri is but palàm vel publicè fateri ; it is no profession if it be not , or pretend not to be , an expression of the mind : and therefore to be implicite and not express , is so far to be against the very nature of the profession ; in that measure as your profession is implicite ( as it 's called ) and not express , in that measure it is no profession at all . object . 7. but when you have the most express covenant or profession , you are not sure that it is true , and that the man is a believer at the heart . answ . 1. i am sure that it 's truly a profession , that is , a pretended signe of the mind , tho●gh i am not sure that it 's true profession , that is , a true infallible signe of the mind : i can know the metaphysical , though not the morall truth of it . and then i can be sure that i do my duty , and take up according to the directions of christ . it is his work to judge the heart immediatly , as being his prerogative to know it : but it 's my work to judge of the credibility of the profession . 2. and what if i have no infallible certainty ? must i therefore throw up all , and make the pastoral church-government to be void , and cast open the vineyard of christ to the wilderness , and not so much as require a credibility , because we cannot have an infallibility ? this may not be . object . 8. but this will encourage tbe anabaptists and congregational , in their express covenantings , by our coming so neer them ? answ . 1. i may better say , you will make men anabaptists , and drive them too far , by your loosness , and willfully shunning plaine duty . how can weake professours be drawn to think well of that party , which they see do shun so needfull a work of god ? 2. love and peace will teach all christians to say , that it 's the best for unity and healing of our breaches , to come as neare dissenting brethren as we may , and no● to fly the further from them . at least we may not run from truth and duty , that we may be unlike our dissenting brethren . 3. and i take it to be my duty to tell this alowd to the christian world , that after long contest with the anabaptists , and opposition of their waies , i am grown ( as i confidently think ) to this discovery of the mind of god in suffering them among us ; that he had this great truth and duty , to which he saw it necessary to awake us ; the church having been so lamentably defiled , discipline made an impossible thing , and mens salvation grievously hindred , by the common secret , unobserved transition of all people into the name , and number , and priviledges of adult-christians ; therefore did god permit these men , to step too far on the other side , that the noise might be the greater , and his call the more observable ; so that they are his messengers , calling aloud to england , and all other christian churches in europe , to keep the doore , and repaire the hedge , and no more to take an infant-baptism , and profession of our parents , as a sufficient evidence of the title of the adult , to the name , or place , or priveledges of christians ; but to give them infant priviledges upon the parents profession ; but to require of them a sober , serious profession and covenanting by themselves , in owning their baptismal covenant , before we number them with adult-christians : and that god hath suffered the anabaptists to make such a stirre among us ▪ will prove a mercy to us in the end , if we have the wit and grace to learn this , upon this troublesome occasion ; and then the reformation will do us more good , then ever the anabaptists did us harm . but if we will not learne , nor obey gods call , we must yet looke to be molested by them more , or else to do and suffer worse . object . 9. but if you will not take a non-renouncing of christ , and infant baptism as sufficient , without a personal covenant and profession , you may on the same grounds call men every week to such a profession , because that the former profession shews not what they afterwards are , but what then they are . answ . 1. the case is quite another : in your instance , it is but the continuance of the same profession and condition that is requisite : and i am bound to take it as continued , while i have no evidence to question it , and see the performance of it , as far as belongeth to my cognisance . but in my case the conditions and the professions are not the same : a new condition of right ; is necessary to the adult , which they had not at all in their infant baptism . then they entered upon their parents faith or profession ; but at age they must necessarily have a faith , or profession of their own , or else they actually cease to be christians . 2. and yet let me adde , that frequent professions of faith , and renewing covenant with god , have ever been used in the church ; both before christs incarnation and since , and indeed , the lords supper doth import it : and for my part , i thinke it a very convenient , edifying course , to have the articles of our faith every day repeated , as the belief of that church , and the people to stand up at it , to signifie their consent ; so be it , you will not take up with this silent profession alone , and exclude a more explicite one , when it is requisite . but this fitly signifieth our standing to the first . object . 10. but this will cast you upon the same difficulties which you object to the anabaptists ; you will not know at what age to take men for adult-christians . answ . 1. we shall not accept them for their age , but for their profession : and we can easily tell when they offer themselves to tryal and profession , and desire the communion of the church : as the ancient churches could tell when their catechumens were to be baptized . 2. and for the time when we must judge their infant church-state to cease , if they own not the covenant personally , we cannot set a certaine yeare , nor is it necessary : but when their infancy ceaseth , then their infant-state ceaseth : that is , when they come to the full or competent use of reason : but then observe , 1. that if they be called at such a time to profess their faith , and own their covenant , and refuse it , then we must judge them refusers of christianity unless the reasons of the refusal allows another judgment . 2. or if they will fully neglect for a considerable space , to own their baptismal covenant , and to seeke a standing among the adult-christians , it 's a strong presumption that they are backsliders . 3. if they only suspend their personal profession at age , we must only suspend our judgment , till we have some light to discern the cause : and cannot be sure that there are deserters or apostates . 4. but we are sure that they are nor to be numbred by the church among adult christians , till they have produced the evidence of their title , which is no other then a credible , personal profession . so that it 's easy to know when any such person is to be admitted , and publikely owned as an actual believer , though it be not so easy to discern of all , before that time , whether they are to be reckoned as desertours or not . he that wilfully neglecteth to come among the adult christians , long after he hath the full use of reason ( which is not with all at the same age ) is to be much suspected , at least : and commonly about 16 , or 17 , or 18 , years of age , is the time when we have reason to expect that they should seek the communion and privilidges of the adult : for about that age , they have a competent use of reason . object . 11. but if you admit them into the church in infancy , say the anabaptists , you will be obliged to excommunicate them all , that prove ungodly when they come to age , and not to let them silently pass out of the church again . answ . excommunication is either an excluding them from all relation of members to the catholike church , or from the actual communion of the church , or from both . the former we can do but declaratively . in the latter we also adjoyne the charge of god , for the execution of the sentence . but those that were never personal professours of faith , nor admitted into the communion of adult-christians , are not fit to be cast out of it : and this is the common use of excommunication , to remove those , as unfit , from the communion of the adult , that once were in it , and forfeit that communion : which cannot belong to them that never were in it . and for our declaring them desertours or apostates , we may do it upon just occasion , but we are not bound to do it publikely by all that are guilty ; this being not the excommunication , that is so enjoyned in the scriptures . where do you find that the church in scripture-times or after , was wont to excommunicate apostates ? and yet apostates were formerly of the church . it is those that hang on , and pretend still to be of the church , and intrude into the actual communion of it , that we must cast out , when they deserve it . object . 12. but if they cease to be christians , you must baptize them againe , if you will receive them . answ . no such matter : the anabaptists themselves will not rebaptize an apostate , when he returneth to the church . he is to be received by confession and absolution , and not by baptism . if a christian turn turk , and afterward return , he is not to be rebaptized . object . 13. but by this means you will unchristen the people , and then they will be exasperated , and turn heathens , or hearken to any seducers that will mislead them answ . 1. no : we will unchristen no man : but do that honour to christianity , and that right to the church and the soules of men , as to make a difference between christians and infidels , and that somewhat wider then the bare names . he that is a christian shall be more encouraged by this course , and he that is not , cannot be unchristened by us . if men will not unchristen themselves , they need not fear lest the just trying and approving of their christianity should unchristen them . 2. how little honour it is to christ and the church , to have the number made up , by such as we would disallow ; i have shewed you before , and also what a mischief that is to themselves , which some would give them as a benefit . 3. if magistrates and ministers do their duty , ( yea or but ministers alone ) they will better be kept from heathenism , or other evils in the state of expectants and catechumens , then in the state of church-members , where discipline will make them mad . object . 14. but at least your designe lookes as if you would keep the children of all such unchristened ; and what work would that make ? answ . i medle not with that question , but leave every man to his own judgment . and if i did my self keep off such children , i think it would prove but very few . for 1. i would refuse none of the parents that had aliquid christi , that made but a credible profession of christianity . 2. i am perswaded that this practise would bring almost all the people to a tollerable profession , when they know it is expected , and what lieth on it . 3. upon experience now i find , that both the parents are seldom so bad as to be uncapable of offering their child to god , ( in the judgment of the church ) nay commonly here the more one of the persons is in scandalous sinne , the more the other hates it : and they are seldom both grosly ignorant . and those that were delayed on these terms , would receive no wrong by it . gods way is the best . the children of unbelievers must not be inchurched in waies of our devising , nor respected before the honour of christ , and the common good of the church of god. but of this i say againe , i interpose not my judgment , but leave each man to his own . object . 15. but though confirmation be a duty , yet none but bishops have power to do it : and therefore it is not a lawfull thing for presbyters to attempt it . answ . 1. what mean you by bishops ? it is a word that hath , by mens application , got so many significations , that we may well expect that you give us the definition of a bishop , before you make him the matter of your dispute . and yet i have read so many bookes that dispute for episcopy , and so few that tels us what they mean by it ; that i must needs say , that most of them lose their labour , with such as i. if by a bishop you mean , such as our english bishops were , or any fixed pastour of many particular churches , i deny that such were ever instituted by christ , much less have they the sole power of such administrations . 2. do you meane that it is by gods law , or the laws of men , that diocesan bishops only may confirm ? if by gods laws , prove it , and we shall quickly yield . but that it 's very unlikely you should do . if you say that only the apostles had this power , i answer , 1. that then fixed diocesan bishops had none of it : for the apostles were none such . 2. then timothy , titus , ●paphroditus , &c. when they pretend to have been bishops , had it not . 3. ananias was no apostle , that laid hands on paul , that he might receive the holy ghost : of this more anon . but if you say , that this power is given to the bishops meerly by the laws of men ; then either by the laws of magistrates , or of bishops . for the former , we know of none in force with us , to that purpose ; and if they were , it is a work without their line , which christ hath done before them , and not left to them , to describe the offices of his church . and for bishops canons , we know no power that any bishops ever had , to make standing laws for the universal church ; nor of any such laws that are obligatory to us : and the opponents themselves do violate the canons of general councils without scruple ( as the 20th of 1. con. nic. and abundance more ) and how can they oblige us more then them ? 3. presbyters have the keys of the kingdom : therefore they may takein , and confirm thereby . 4. presbyters may by baptism take in members into the vniversal church , and judge of their fitness in order thereto : therefore much more may they confirm them , and judge of their fitness in order thereto . 5. it s granted , that presbyters may absolve , ( which was ordinarily by imposition of hands ) yea , saith bishop vsher , the deacons were sometime allowed it : therefore presbyters may confirm : or if you yielded but absolution , you would yield much of what we contend for , seeing so many violate their baptismal covenant , that absolution for restoring of them will be as necessary as confirmation . 6. hierome , that makes presbyters and bishops by gods law to be the same , doth yet according to the custom of the church say , that what doth the bishop except ordination , which the presbyter doth not : therefore he supposed that presbyters might confirm . 7. the same hierome expresly saith , that imposition of hands was reserved to the bishop , for the honour of priesthood , rather then by divine ordinatlon : * therefore it is but a humane institution . 8. the episcopal divines , and other writers of their side , do commonly maintaine the validity of presbyters ordination , viz. that in case of necessity it is lawfull , and where there is no flat necessity , it is not a nullity where it is irregular . i cited ( christian concord , pag. 53 , 54 , &c. ) many bishops and their defenders , that thus justifie the protestant churches , that have no bishops ; as dr. field , bishop d●wname , bishop jewel , saravia , bishop alley , bishop pilkington , bishop bridges , bishop bilson , grotius , lord digby , mr. chisenhal , bishop davenant , bishop prideaux , nowel , bishop andrews , mr. chillingworth ; to whom i adde ( to make up twenty ) 17. bishop bramhal , of schism . 18. and dr. steward . in his answer to fountaines letter . 19. dr. ferne , 20. and bishop vsher , in his judgment lately published . abundance more might easily be added : but mr. mason's book in vindicacation of the ordination of the forraigne reformed churches , may serve instead of more . 9 we have no bishop to do it : and therefore it must be done by presbyters : or we have none that we know of , and non esse , & non apparere ; are to us all one . 10. presbyters may impose hands in ordination , and ever did here in england : therefore much more in absolution and confirmation . 11. king charles , by the advice of his doctours in the isle of wight , reserved only ordination , and not confirmation and absolution to the bishops . 12. presbyters are governours of the churches , which are their pastoral charge ; and are called rectors : ( see bishop vshers , reduction of episcopacy , &c. proving it ) therefore they may do this , which is an act of government or guidance of the particular church . 13. presbyters must teach and oversee the people as their charge , and deliver them the sacrament : therefore they must judge to whom they must do it . 14. a diocesane bishop is uncapable of doing it faithfully : could one man try , approve and confirm faithfully , all the souls in 200 or 300 churches ? it 's known that here they did not : and it 's plain they cannot . if they lay hands on them without tryal , upon the presbyters word , then 1. this yieldeth , all save the ceremony , which we require . 2. and it is a venturing their practises on the judgment and fidelity of other men ; who may send them infidels to be confirmed for ought they know . but if they try themselves , they are never able to do for so many , in season : some will be old men , before the bishop will have leisure to confirm them ; and many a hundred die without it . nor do they know the people as their pastours do . 15. the doctrine and practise of the church of england , under the bishops , is for the power of presbyters herein as far as we desire : for 1. the presbyters of curates , had by the rubrick , the tryal and approbation of those , that were sent to the bishop for confirmation . 2. the bishops accordingly tooke them on their words , with a certificate , and used not to try them themselves , but only to impose hands with prayer and blessing . 3. and this by the canon , their suffragane also might do ; which yieldeth that a presbyter may do it . 16. the pope himself doth yield that presbyters may do it . and gregories epist . to that end , is put into their canon law , dist . 95. 1 , part . baptizatos etiam chrismate eos tangere conceditur , and gregories epist . to januar. calaritan . is annexed : by which it appeareth that they took his former prohibition so ill , that he was faine to reverse it . and though c. 11. he be forbidden infantes signare , in the presence of the bishop , without his command , yet so he was forbidden also to administer the eucharist , yea and the rural presbyters , might not give the cup or bread , in presence of the city presbyters , c. 12. ex concil . neocaesar . 1. c. 13. but certainly this proveth neither the one nor the other , out of their power . 17. the papists commonly confess , that presbyters may ex dispensatione , confirm by imposition of hands : so bellarmine himself . and the shool-men ordinarily make it an act of the presbyters power . 18. if it be proper to bishops , then either because of their order or jurisdiction : not of order : for they are of the same order with presbyters , as is frequently confessed by bishops and papists themselves , and differ but in degree : not of jurisdiction : for it is no more an act of jurisdiction to confirm , then to baptize or give the eucharist . 19 protestant divines are commonly agreed , that confirmation is not proper to bishops , but may be used by presbyters . for 1. france , belgia , helvetia , denmarke , saxonie , sweden , the palatinate , the countries of the duke of brandenburge , of the duke of brunswike , the land-grave of hassia , with the rest of the protestant princes of germany , and also hungarie , transilvania , the protestants in poland , &c. besides scotland , and so many in england , are all without bishops , having put them down : and though three or foure of these countries have superintendents , yet they make not confirmation proper to them . 2. the english bishops , ordinarily maintaine against the papists , that presbyters may confirm , and therefore we have their concurrance , as in dr. field , bishop downam , mason , and many others is apparent . 20. if all this will not satisfie you , for peace sake , we will forbeare imposition of hands , which you suppose to be the bishops proragative ; and we will be content to do no more , then presbyters alwaies did in baptizing the adult ; even to judge and approve of the capacity of those whom they baptized : and so will we only judge of the profession and capacity of those that we take charge of , and own as adult-christians , and must administer the lords supper to : and this common reason cannot deny us . object . 16. but if presbyters may do it , yet so cannot you ; for you are no presbyters , as wanting episcopal ordination : or else schismatical , as having cast them off to whom you were sworn . answ . 1. in my second sheet for the ministry , and my christian concord , i have answered already : and for fuller answer , i referre you to the london ministers vindication , to mr. mason's vindication of the ordination of the protestant churches , &c. if bishop bancroft himself , as dr. bernard mentions , in bishop vsher's judgment , and the rest of the prelates , were against the reordaining the scots ministers , me thinks , few should be so much more intemperate , then that intemperate prelate , as to judge their ordination null . and if the papists in the canon law , do judge that in some cases an excommunicate mans ordination is valid , me thinks protestants should not be worse to the church then they : especially those that are for the necessity of an uninterrupted succession of justly ordained pastours ; who must ( i dare boldly say ) derive their succession from unmeeter , and more uncapable hands , then english pastours . 2. no more is necessary to the authority and just ordination of a pastour , but that he enter according to the laws of god ; which laws require us to submit to the tryal , of our rulers and brethren , magistrates ( in some cases ) and pastours ; and to come in according to the best means , for election and approbation , that are then to be had and used ; but they bind us not to come in by waies impossible , nor to see that our antecessours through all generations have been lawfully ordained . 3. i have shewed already , and god willing shall more fully do it , in a disputation on that subject , that our english episcopcay was not that which god established , but intollerably inconsident with it : and therefore neither are men the less ministers for being without their ordinations , nor are they schismaticks for consenting to their deposition . 4 as for breaking oathes of canonical obedience to them , i think but few among us did take any such oath , and therefore broke none . 5. many among us were ordained by bishops , and some that were ordained took not that oath : and others that did , yet obeyed them while they stood , and what could they do more . 6 the younger sort of ministers had no hand in taking down the bishops ; and therefore are not scismatical thereby : and that their ordination is no nullity , bshiop vsher and other twenty prelatical witnesses forecited will testifie . object . 17. but on the contrary side it will be said , that you would set up the popish sacrament of confirmation againe . answ . the papists have made another thing of it : they use it to infants , and so will not we : they make a proper sacrament of it : they make the visible signes to be anointing and crossing , in the name of the father , sonne and holy ghost ; and they make imposition of hands no part of it , but cast it off , ( though in words they own it ) they adjoyn a boxe of the eare , to signifie , the opposition that christs souldiers must expect : they make it to imprint i know not what indelible caracter , and to give grace ex opere operato : they make it to be an entering of us into christs militia abusing baptism , as being but an entering us into his family , and not his warfare : all this is nothing to that , which i am pleading for , and which the protestant writers do wish for . object . 18. at least you will revive the prelatical confirmation againe , which the old non-conformists were against . answ . we will revive nothing of it , but what was good : the corruption we shall omit . they did it but on a few , ( contrary to their own laws ) but we would have it used to all . they confirmed children that understood not what they said : but we shall expect an understanding profession of faith. they did it in a hurry as an idle ceremony : we would have it done deliberately and with great reverence . the bishop only did it with them , that knew not whom he did confirm , but ventured on other mens words , or without : but we would have the pastour do it , that knoweth the persons , and hath time to try them , having one parish and not two hundred to oversee . object . but , at least , the papists and prelats will be hardened or encouraged by your coming so neare them . answ . i will not cast off the work of god , because that any will make it an occasion of sinne . and i take it to be the more my duty and not the less , because it tends to peace with all . i take it not to be any part of my religion , to study how to cross my brethren , or forbeare a practice ( yea so necessary a duty ) because they like it . i detest that principle and spirit . i rather feare , lest their own selfconceitedness , interest , prejudice and discontent , will make them dislike it . object . 19. what have we to do with the signe , when the thing that occasioned the use of it is ceased ? imposition of hands was at first only for the gift of miracles . answ . 1. it was much for the gift of miracles , but not only . and if the giving of one sort of the gifts of the holy ghost be ceased ; yet the other , more excellent and necessary gifts continue ; and therefore no reason the signe should cease , because it was not appropriated to the gift of miracles . but 2. if any man scruple either the signe of imposing hands , or the name of confirmation , we desire him his liberty : these are not the things that we contend for : let him but yield us that which i have shewed to be most certaine , and most usefull to the church ; that is , a solemn transition out of an infant church-state into an adult , under approbation of the pastours , and the just cognisance of t●e church ; and let him call it what he will , i shall not much contend with him about the name , or signe of imposition . object . 20. abundance of ministers are raw , imprudent young men , and not fit to manage so great a trust : and so it will marre all ; while some are so strict , that they will refuse all that seem not godly to their censorious minds ; and some will be loose man-pleasers , and let in all , and turn it but to an unprofitable formality . answ . 1. while men are men , they will act as men . if we shall have no church-ordinances and administrations , till you are secured from humane abuse of them , you must shut up the church doors , and give up all ; and shut up your bibles , till papists and infidels can find no matter of cavelling at the translation . 2. as i said before , this indeed should provoke the magistrate to set a faithfull guard on the church doores , that seeing the pastours have so great a trust , and the danger of abusing it is so great , the worthiest should be chosen that can be had . and if it be not so , you reproach your selves , that are choosers and pastours , and have the rule . why choose you not better if you know where to find them ? 3. this objection , is as much against our judging of those that are to be baptized , which yet the ministers that did baptize , have ever done , and were you not baptized already , we must admit you , and judge who is to be admitted , as the ancient preachers of the gospel did . 4. the episcopal b●ethren had more wit , then to be against confirmation , because one man may use it too strictly , and another too loosely : the congregational men are not against church-●ovenants or professions , because one pastour or church may be too strict ; and another too loose in judging of mens piety : the presbyterians are not against trying men before admission to the lords supper , nor against discipline , because one eldership may be too strict , and another too loose . the anabaptists are not against rebaptizing men at age , because one minister may refuse the fit , and another may take in all that come . why then should a possibility of ministers miscarriage , cause you to be more against this , then all the rest ? 5. if ministers be associated , they will be accountable for such miscariages ; and the advise and admonition of their brethren , may do much to prevent or reform such abuses : and the faithfull people of their charge , will somewhat observe them , and bid archippus take heed to the ministry that he hath received in the lord , that he fulfill it , col. 4. 17. 6. as long as you are not forced into our charge , but have your liberty to choose your pastour , ( as now it is ) you have the less reason for this complaint . if the laws of zeno or plato be thought too strict in their schooles , as long as the schollars may choose to come there , and all volunteers , they may the better beare it . 7. as i said before , the trust must be put in some or other to judge : and where can it be fitter then in them , who by study are prepared , and by office appointed by christ hereunto . 8. if you will give a presbytery , or one eminent minister in every market-town , or visiters of your own appointment , a special care to oversee the rest in doing this , and such like works , i shall be no gainsayer , so the work be but done : the more inspection and circumspection the better . 9 if one minister refuse the fit , there be many more that will not . 10 your commissioners may have power moderately to correct the m●nisters abuses in their work . but because i perceive that rulers are unreasonably jealous , lest the pastours of the church will do too much , rather then left they do too little , and are more solicitous to use the bridle of restraint , then the spurre of instigation : i intreate them to consider these things : 1. that most certainly there is no part of all our ministry , that stirs up neer so much ill will , passion , malice , yea and persecutions against us , as this part , about taking in and casting out , and exercising the keyes of the kingdom ; in which you are so jealous of us . 2. and alas ministers are flesh and blood , as well as others : and all of them too tender of their interest , of profit , reputation , and ease : which are all contradicted notably by this work . do you think ministers will be so hot on it , to have their neighbours hate them and revile them , and to live as owles in the places where they live , and to put themselves on a great deal of trouble ? surely it is a very self-displeasing thing to the very nature of man , unless he be a monster , to displease his neighbours , and be hated and baited by them . and it will provoke them not only to forbeare all acts of kindness or bounty , but to deny them their due maintenance , as far as ever they can : and many , if not most ministers , have no great mind to be so used ; nay had rather lose it , then go to law for all their dues ; the trouble , and cost , and odium of it is so great . so that our parliaments have been too much afraid , lest ministers should cease to be men , or to be sinners , and to be manpleasers , and to indulge their flesh ; and lest we should runne into the fire , and lie down among the thorns , and choose a life of trouble and sufferings . 3. and me thinks experience should satisfie men of this . do you not see how backward ministers are to church-reformation , and discipline in the exercise , when they have been most forward for the power ? how little is yet done in it , for all our liberty , after all our prayers , and petitions , and writing for it ? do you find in most parishes that ministers are prone to overdo ? certainly you do not . 4. do you not know that all the work of god is so much against nature , and hath such abundance of enemies and difficulties in the way , that few men are like to be guilty of over-doing ? why be you not as carefull to hinder men from overdoing in sanctifying the lords day , in teaching and praying with their families , &c. but because you see that few need your curb . i am confident , should parliaments do their best to drive on ministers to such works as these , and make laws upon laws , to spur them to the practice , they would not be able to bring one half of us , nor the tenth man , to reach so farre , as christ hath bound us ; no nor one man of us , in all respects . and yet i againe say , that if any rash men are overrigid and abuse their trust ( which is likest to be those whose maintenance no whit cometh from the people ; for in the rest there is more danger of the contrary , ) we desire not that they should be exempted from the magistrates , ministers , or peoples due means for their amendment . but let the spurre be most used , seeing there is most need ; and let us see some severe laws , to drive us on to those duties , that flesh and blood , and all the world is so much against . i come now to the last part of m●●aske , which is to give some brief directions for the most effectual practice of this excellent , needfull work . and i shall first speake of the duty of ministers in order to it , and 2. of the peoples duty , and lastly of the magistrates . the duty of the pastours i judge to consist in these particulars . direct . 1. let the pastours in each country meet together , and agree as one man in faithfulness , and self-denial , to do their duty ; that the most conscionable may not be liable to the reproach of singularity , because the rest betray them , and the church and cause of christ , by withdrawing , and leaving the work undone : so long hath the church already suffered the neglect , even of godly ministers , that in such a time of leave and helpe , we still hold off , and dare not venture on a little displeasure of the people , when our ancestours ventered on the flames ; i grieve to think what a shame it will be to our names , and to the reformed churches , and what a confusion it may bring upon our faces , before our righteous judge . and it is a griefe to me , if i were sure of magistrates assistance , that all our enemies shall say , and that the histories of this age shall tell posterity , that the ministers of england , after fasting , prayers , warres and vowes pretended for reformation , would yet do little or nothing toward it , but preach ; even in times of liberty and encouragement , till the magistrate did it : and that it must be the work of the magistrate , after our unworthy , lazy , or treacherous desertion of it . had we no more help then we have , we might do much , were we willing and unanimous . direct . 2. let us take heed of extending these agreements to any unnecessary circumstances , so as to lay the stress of the business on them , or to make that necessary , which is unnecessary : but let us agree on the generall certain points , and leave particular men to their liberty , in modes and circumstances , not judging each other , if we differ herein : or if one be more or less strict then another in the execution . direct . 3. let us yet all be very carefull , that in point of tryall and judging mens profession , we avoid extreames : on one side let us not be righteous overmuch , by keeping out any , that make the most broken , intelligible profession of faith and repentance , and a godly life , that may be taken for credible : and remember that we are not searchers of the heart , and that charity judgeth not evil of any , that are capable of a better judgment . and certainly a humble soul that 's conscious of its own infirmities , and unworthiness will be very tender of condemning another , without very satisfying evidence . of this i referre you to my first dispute , of right to sacraments . on the other side , let us take heed of turning this duty into a meer formality , and making nothing of it , but mocking the church and god. let us not take up with a profession of any other kind of faith , but the true christian saving faith ; nor with any profession of this faith , which we are able to prove to be incredible . direct . 4. none of the aged that have already been admitted to the communion of the church in the lords supper , may be brought under confirmation by imposition of hands , as we have before shewed . but all that were yet never admitted to this special part of communion , nor have made any solemne approved profession , should yet be called to it , be they young or ould , when they demand church-communion . if you ask me what shall be done with the rest , seeing they were admitted irregularly , without any profession of the faith ? i answer , 1. acquaint them plainly with the nature of christianity , and what a church is , and what is the office of a pastour , and what the duty of the flock , to god , to him , and themselves , and one another . 2. then tell them , that you resolve to proceed according to these rules in the government of your flock ; and to exercise this discipline . tell them plainly ( that they be not deceived ) both what are the benefits of a church-state and discipline , and what are the difficulties that unprepared men are like to grudg at ; and how hardly they will take it to be followed , and not suffered to rest in sinne , and openly reproved , and cast out with shame , if they will not be penitent and reforme . and then tell them , that if there be any that have slipt into a church-state ( in shew ) and knew not what christianity was , or what they did , and finde themselves as yet unfit for it , if they do forbeare the priviledges of the church , till they are better prepared , and acquainted with them , and can use them to their profit , you shall in meane time be ready to teach them publikly and privatly , till they are prepared : and those that are fit to continue , and use such priviledges , advise not to forbeare them . but let them know , that you can neither take all the parish as such for members of the universal church , or of your charge , and therefore must have some better evidence , especially after such a confusion , that negligence hath brough into the church : and you cannot take any man to be of your charge against his will , and therefore you must know their minds . 3. give them notice , that all that own their church-membership , and will have communion with that church , under your ministry and pastoral oversight , are desired by you to signifie their desires , by giving in their names to the cleark of the parish , or some other fit person ; or if they refuse that , by coming to you . 4. when you have their names , keep them some time , while you get information of the persons lives . and then give notice to all ( if it may be , to avoid imputation of partiality ; or at least of all that you have reason to suspect , of gross ignorance or impiety ) by streets , villages , or houses , to come to speak with you , on some appointed daies : where you may discerne the fitness of some ; and such as you find to be grosly ignorant or scandalous , advise them to stay till they are prepared , offering them your help , because else you must do that in a way of discipline , that they are unfit to beare . 5. all that disown their own standing and church-membership , or present right to priviledges , and withdraw into the order of catechumens , as being ignorant in what they did before , you may safely teach them as catechumens , and are not bound to enrage them by church-discipline , which they consent not to , and are not capable of . 6. all those that you find tolerable , that have owned their churchmembership , and not withdrawne themselves , you ought to keep their names , in a church book for memory , and to call them solemnly ( at some day of humiliation , or other fit season ) to own their relation publikly , their names being-read , that all may know with whom they are to hold communion . and if there be need , you may justly require them there openly to renew their profession and covenant with god. 7. your flock being then reformed and known , you need not call them againe , to examination before particular sacraments , or other parts of church-communion . 8. when any members are after added , they should , if unconfirmed , and such as never did communicate , be received solemnly by prayer and benediction ; and if they be such as have been admitted to communion , let them be only approved upon renewing their profession . for the one sort are confirmed in their relation to both catholike and particular church ; but the other , only enter then into the particular church , being solemnly received into the catholick church before , and perhaps into some other particular church , or into that from which they departed . direct . 5. if any come in that hath violated his baptismal covenant , by a wicked life , he is before you receive him , to give some open testimony of his repentance , ( if his sinne were open ) that so he may be ministerially absolved , and the church receive him , not meerly as an adult-believer , but as a convert , with praiers and rejoicing . and the fuller confession he makes of his ungodly life , and of the way and love of god in his recovery , and the fuller warning he giveth others of the sinnes that he was guilty of , and the fuller he communicateth to them the satisfying reasons that caused him to turne , the better it is , and more suitable to the state of a penitent : as also the fullyer he professeth his resolution to stick close to christ , by the help of his grace , for the time to come . direct . 6. for the exeecution of this , because all the people cannot be still ready , nor attend , and because , it 's fit they have some cognisance of these things ; let some of the most sober , judicious persons , be chosen by the church ( not into office , but as their delegates , or trustees ) to meet with the pastours monthly in some convenient place , where all persons may first address themselves that seek the priviledges of the church ( and where matters of discipline may be first transacted , before we bring them to the assembly yet not forbidding any other of the church to be there present , that will. and either in that meeting may members after be admitted , and their names made publike at the next communion ; or else some meetings publikly appointed , foure times a veare , or more , for admitting such in publike , as shall be found fi●est : which may be at a fast before a s●crament . and let any of the church ( at that prep●rative meeting ) have leave to put in what exceptions they have , against the person for his profession or conversation . direct . 7. let the pastours and churches that live within the reach of any communion , be as many as is possible , associate , and meet for the maintaining of communion of churches : ( by their officers , and delegates ) and those that differ in such tollerable matters , as may not hinder their christian or church-communion , and yet are not satisfied to joyne in synods with the rest , let them agree upon such terms of communion and christian correspondence as their principles will admit . and let no stranger be admitted to our church-communion , that bringeth not a certificate ( called of old communicatorie letters , ) or some sufficient testimony from one of these sorts either the churches neerly associated , or those that we agree to take for brethren . and those that bring such certificates must be admitted by us , without any further tryal , or confirmation ; unless there be some notable cause of suspition . but for those that live in heretical , or impious societies , or such as refuse all church-order , and communion with neighbour churches , or are justly disowned by the associated churches , we should not admit them to our communion , without a particular tryal , or a better certificate then those churches can give them . and thus should all the churches be concatenated , and their communion setled . direct . 8. above all let every minister see that he wisely and diligently carry himself to the rest of his parish ; avoiding indeed the excommunicate as heathens : but for all that are willing to learne in an expectant-state , let us deale lovingly , gently and tenderly with them , denying them nothing that lawfully we can yield them , in matters of buryal , marrying , praying , preaching , or the like . and be sure to carry on the necessary duty of catechizing , and personal conference and instruction with them , family by family , by which you may the better know them and prepare them for church-communion , and have opportunity to quiet them , and answer their objections ; and they may see that you cast them not off as heathens , but only prepare them for the state and priviledges , which they are yet unfit for . and especially let us by all possible condescension , meekness , loving carriage , blameless lives , and charitable contribution to the utmost of our abilities , endeavour to win them and take off that offence , or at least abate it , or hinder the success of the reproaches of those , that will undoubtedly be offended , by our reformation and discipline . and let us have a vigilant eye upon any seducers , especially infidels and papists that may creep in among them , to take advantage of their discontents ; that we may prudently and effectually counterwork them . this much faithfully done by ministers , might be an admirable mercy to the church . 2. the peoples duty in order to this reformation before mentioned , is , 1. of the godly , and such as are fit for church-communion : 2. of the grosly ignorant and ungodly that are unfit . 1. the duty of the first sort lyeth in these particulars . 1. they must highly value the benefit of pastorall oversight and church-communion , and therefore be ready to promote any work of reformation that is necessary , to their more fruitfull and comfortable enjoyment of them . 2. they must so behave themselves as may honour and further the work , and take heed of that by which it may be hindered ; least they weaken our hands and be a stumbling block to others . for what can a minister do himself , if the church assist him not ? much less if they hinder him ? especially , 1. they must take heed of scandalous sinnes , which may be a shame to their profession , and open the mouthes of the enemies of the church . 2. they must take heed of sects and div●sions , and quarrellings among themselves , which will break them in pieces , or hinder their edification , and make them a stumbling block to the weak , and a laughing stock to the wicked . 3. they must take heed of sur●yness and pride , and domineering carriage towards those that are yet without : and must be as eminent in meekness , and humility , and patience , and forbearance , and self-denyal , as they are in the profession of religion . for a proud domineering spirit , or strangeness and unnecessary distance , doth lose the ungodly , whom you should be means to win . 4. they must study to do all the good they can to those without ; be as little as may be in executing penalties on them , and as much as may be possibly , in speaking kindly and familiarly to them , and relieving them in wants , and visiting them in sickness , and think it not much to purchase their love , in order to their salvation , with the loss of your right , or with the price of much of your worldly goods . for all men love those , or at least will less dislike them , that do no hurt to any , but do good to all , or as many as they can . to be the servants of all , is the highest christian dignity , and the way to winne them . 5. take heed of falling out , or contending with any of them , or of giving them any harsh , provoking words , to their faces , or behind their backs . but put up any wrong that is meerly your own , and is in your power to forgive , for the sake of peace , and your own neighbours good . 6. be not men of common spirits , or common speech , or a common conversation : but as we must make a difference between you and others in our communion and church-administrations , so let the rest see that it is not without cause . for if you be but like other men , we shall seeme to be partial in making a difference , between you and other men . let your light therefore shine before men to the glory of your heavenly father . let them see that you despise the world , and live above it , and can easily part with it ; that you can forgive and bear a wrong ; that your heart is in heaven , and your treasure there ; and that you are the heires of another world : let all men heare and see by you , that you have a higher designe in your eye , then the ungodly , and that you are driving on another trade , then the men that have their portion in this life . heaven is your reall glory : and to be heavenly is your true reputative glory , not only in the eies of the wi●e , but of the common earth-worms of the world . 7. set your selves in the most diligent and faithfull improvement of all your parts and interests to help on the work of god on mens souls . though you preach not , you have work enough in your own places to do , to further the preachers work . speake to poore people prudently , seasonably , and seriously about the state of their souls , and everlasting life : and consult with the ministers , how to deale with them : tell them in what state you find the people , and take their advice in further dealing with them . o if our neighbours would but helpe us in private , and do their parts , and not cast all the burden on the minister , there would much more be done then is ! nay , alas , to our grief and hindrance , some of our professing people are so hot , and self-conceited , and proud , that unless we will outrunne our own understandings , and be ruled by them , and shut out abundance that the word of god allows us not to shut out , and be righteous overmuch , and shut up the church of christ , as in a nut-shell ; they presently murmure and rebell , and separate , and must betake themselvel to a stricter congregation . and others of them , must have us cast off discipline , and cut up the hedge , and admit all to the communion and priviledges of the church , and all under a blind pretense of charity ; and some learned gentlemen by words and writings , do enrage our ignorant and ungodly ▪ neighbours against us , and make them believe , that we do them some grievous wrong , because we will not indeed deceive them and undo them , and set up new church-orders ( or disorders ) now in the end of the world , so contrary to all the ancient canons and orders of the church . i honour and deerly love the names of many of these studious , pious gentlemen : but seriously i must tell them , that they want humility , and in their good meanings do the church a world of wrong . and though they may be more learned even in theology , then we , yet it is a great matter to have or to want experience . they have not been so much in church-administrations as we , nor had so much to do with ignorant souls . and verily i must say againe , that the bare theory maketh but a bungler in this work : i must much suspect the judgment of that man in matters of church-government , or dealing with poor souls , that wants experience . let these gentlemen , but turn ministers , ( be it known to their faces , there 's none of them too good for it , nor too great ) and let them but try our life a little while , and i shall set more by their judgments , then now i do . i red many a physicians writings , before i was fit to attempt a cure. it 's a raw deceitful kind of knowledg in these practical affaires , that is not furthered by experience . 2. and as for the duty of the ignorant , ungodly people , i shall say little of it , because i suppose they are not like to read or regard what i say . only in general , it is their first duty , to become truly godly persons , and so to live in communion with the church . but upon supposition that they will not yet be such , their next choice should be to live in quiet submission to their teachers , and patiently stay among the catechumens , and expectants , till they are fit for a higher place and priviledges . and with the reasonableness of this motion , and how it conduceth to their good , we should labour to acquaint them , and make them sensible of it , that they may be patient in their station . 3. our last work is to tell you , what is the magistrates part , for the promoting of this work . and i shall urge them here to no great matters , because they shall not say , that we would either drive them in the darke upon questionable things , or put them upon that , which any reason can call persecution , or make them think , that we can do nothing but by their sword and therefore whether they should force people to be church-members , or christians , or to come under discipline , are questions that at this time i shall not meddle with ; but direct . 1. it is a great part of the magistrates duty to cause the people that are yet unfit for church-communion , to keep in their visible station , and to behave themselves as expectants , and submit to that instruction of their teachers , which is necessary to prepare them for the priviledges of the church : and to this end the magistrate should by laws and proclamations , own this ministerial reformation . alas how little knew they , what they did , that have so long been jealous of us , lest we would do too much , and under pretence of discipline enflame , or abuse them by severity ? when as it is a work that casteth us on so much rage and hatred , of rich and poor , and calls for such abundance of faith and zeale , and diligence and self-denial , when we have so little , and are commonly like other men addicted too much to man-pleasing , and to save our selves , that if we had all the help that magistrates can give us , it 's ten to one but we should leve the most of this work undone . preaching is a very cheap and easy work , in comparison of church-government . they have taken great pains to stop poor , lazy , short-winded men from runing up the steepest hill , and carrying the heaviest burden , and passing through the greatest sufferings , that in those prosperous times we can expect . and indeed i know it to be true , that for all the countenance of authority , he that will faithfully execute the pastoral oversight and discipline , shall live a persecuted life , which by meer preaching he might avoid . therefore the chief governours of the nation ought to make laws , and cause them to be executed , for the constraining of the grosly ignorant and ungodly , to heare the word preached publikly , and to submit to be privately catechised , and instructed by the ministers : and to command them patiently to waite , as learners in this condition , till they are fit to be approved members of the church . these carnal people look more at the sword , and will of the magistrate , in matters of religion , then others do ; because they understand no other argument , and can favour nothing but the things of the flesh . did but the rulers of the nation heare how they daily enquire what religion shall be owned and setled by them , they would sure think it their duty , to lend them a little more of their help . we desire you not to drive them to christianity , nor to sacraments , or church-communion : only drive them to heare , and learne , and be instructed , that the light of truth may do the rest . surely none can reasonably suspect , that this is against the liberty of their consciences , unless the slavery of satan be their liberty : and it be their liberty to be free from christ , and righteousness , and heaven . it 's hard to believe that governour to be a christian , that will not do this much to help his subjects to be christians . direct . 2. and as the magistrate should constraine such people to submit to be instructed , so should he constraine the ministers to instruct them , both by publike preaching , and by private conference and catechizing , if they be able : and if through the greatness of the place , one minister is not able to perform it , there should be so many maintained proportionably , to the number and necessities of souls , as may be able . the reason why ministers themselves should be compelled by penalties are , 1. first because some are so dull , that they need the spur . 2. because our performances will be the less resisted by the people , when they know we are forced by the magistrate . 3. because the magistrates judgment puts much authority and honour on the work , in the peoples eies : compel us therefore , as well as them . direct . 3. the magistrate should also impose a penalty upon all that undertake to be pastours of a church , and administer the lords supper , and yet will not make any necessary tryal of the knowledg , faith , and lives of those , to whom they do administer it , nor exercise any church discipline on the scandalous ; but utterly neglect that oversight and church-government , which is as much a part of the pastoral work , as publike preaching is . they that will undertake to be pastours , and meddle with sacraments , must be compelled to do the work of pastours , and to dispence the sacraments in a tollerable order . though yet we are not for compulsion in any doubtfull points , of lesser moment , where a difference among the godly may be tollerated : but that pastours should act as no pastours , and rectors of the churches be as no rectors , and should cherish all ignorance , infidelity , and impiety , and profane gods ordinances , and subvert the communion of saints , and lay the garden of christ open to the common wilderness , and thereby make all seeme singular to the people , that will not do as wickedly as these ; this is not to be tolerated ; but the commissioners for ejecting scandalous ministers , with the advice of the assistants , should have power to correct them , and in case of obstinate unreformedness to eject them : not to silence them from preaching to the catechumens or any ; but to prohibite them from the actions proper to church rulers or pastours , till they will performe them more agreeably to the scripture rule . and this compulsion also of the ministers , we desire especially for the peoples sake , who we are content should be excused themselves from any such penal laws , to restraine them from sacraments ; but when they know that ministers are under such penalties , they will beare it at their hands , and take it the better , when we deale with them , as the word of god requireth . i heare it with my eares , to the grief of my heart , how some of my neighbour ministers are spoken against , with bitterness by their people , because they give not the lords supper to all , even to the most ignorant and ungodly , that refuse to be instructed ; or so much as to take themselves for any members of the ministers charge : and that which they say is , that though bishops and common prayer be taken down , yet the giving of the sacrament to all the parish , is not taken down . and they that now submit so quietly to the disusing of many other things , because ministers are punishable if they use them , would also do the like in this case . and yet if you are jealous , that ministers will go as far on the other hand , in refusing the people that are not to be refused , ( though with one of an hundred , there 's little feare of that ) we are contented that you looke to us also in this : to which end these two things will be sufficient . 1. let the magistrate joyne with the pastours and delegates of the church in their meetings , where church-affaires are transacted , that he may see what we do . if there be no justice of peace in the parish , let every church have a church-magistrate purposely chosen by the chief magistrate ; or some agent on his behalf deputed hereunto . 2. and let the magistrates agent acquaint the commissioners how things are transacted , in cases of complaint , and let them by the advise of the assistant ministers , correct us as we deserve , if you should imagine this to be necessary . direct . 4. the magistrate should promote , encourage , countenance , yea command the pastours to associations and brotherly correspondencies , for the more cautelous , and vigorous , and effectual management of these works ; and for the concatenation and communion of churches , and the right understanding of each others affaires ; that he that hath communion in one church , may by communicatory letters , have communion in any of the rest ; and he that is cast or kept out of one , may not be received by the rest , till it be proved that he is excluded unjustly . and those that joyne not so fully as the rest , may yet be provoked to owne one another , as farre as they can ; that so we may maintaine brotherly love , with all that differ from us by tollerable defferences ; and may own them as churches , though we cannot own their different opinions or waies ; and may have such communion with them , as we may , and upon their letters may admit their members to our communion . this the magistrate should at least openly provoke , and encourage the churches and pastours to ; seeing no man can doubt whether it be for the edification of the church . direct . 5. for the better promoting of this necessary work , i conceive it would be a very ready and unquestionable way , for the magistrate to appoint an able , godly , moderate minister , to be a visiter in each county , or rather in each half or quarter of a county , to see the churches thus reformed , and prvoke the several pastours to their duty , and assist them in it , where there is need : but not to have any episcopal power to punish , or cast out any minister , or excommunicate them , suspend them , or the like : but let every visitor have an agent of the magistrate joyned with him , armed with authority to convent the ministers , and examine witnesses , and do what more the chief magistrate shall see meet , so that still these two visitors go together , but have not the same authority or work ; but let the minister only enquire , direct , exhort , and give account and advice to the civil visiter ; and let the civil visiter have all the coercive power : and let both of them transmit such causes as are exempt from their determination , to the commissioners for ejecting scandalous mininisters , who by the advise of the assistant ministers may determin them . these visiters did very much to the first and great reformation of scotland , when popery had overrun all : nor did they scruple the using of them , for all that they were against prelacy . direct . 6. it is one of the chief and unquestionable parts of the magistrats duty , in order to the reformation and peace of the churches , and the saving of mens souls , to see that dangerous seducers be restrained , from infecting and carrying away the ignorant , ungodly , discontented people , that are kept under ministerial teaching , as expectants . i do not move to have men driven into our churches : nor do i move to have an unnecessary restraint laid upon mens tongues or pens , in case of tollerable differences , among the servants of christ . in this case i only desire now , that the dissenting godly brethren , would agree together , to meddle with their differences no more then needs , and to manage their disagreements with such cautions , and in such manner , and season , and measure , as may least hinder their success in the common work , viz. the promoting of the common fundamental verities , and the converting and saving of the ignorant and ungodly , and getting down the reigning sinnes of the world . and then they will find , 1. that if there by any truth in the private opinions , which they would propagate , it will farre easier be received , when the minds of their brethren are sedate and peaceable , then when they are allarmed to the conflict , by unseasonable preaching for the said opinions . 2. and that the errours ( of this lower nature among brethren ) which some feare a tolleration of , will sooner die of themselves for want of fewel in such peaceable deportment , then when the bellowes of opposition , contradiction , reproach , and violence are blowing them up , and putting life continually into them . for most dividers are proud and selfish , and must needs be noted , for somewhat extraordinary : and you take the principal way to animate them , when you make so much ado with them : whereas a few yeares neglect , and not observing them , as if there were no such men in the world , ( unless when they impose a necessity on us ) would more happily extinguish them . i speak but what i have seen and tryed . this therefore is not the matter of my present request , that magistrates would use rigor and violence with godly men , about tollerable differences ; which the power of greater light and love in the contrary minded , is the principal means to reconcile . but the thing requested now of magistrates is , that they would keep out the wolves , while we are feeding the sheep ▪ or help us in it . that they suffer not damnable deceivers , or any that plainly go about to subvert mens souls , or the state of the church , to fall in with our ignorant , ungodly people , in the time of their learning and expectancy . and as i shall be ready against any libertine , infidel , or papist in the world , to prove this to be in the magistrates power , and his flat duty ( of which i hope no sober christian doubteth ) so i shall here lay before the magistrate , the reasons that shall evince the need of his help , in the present case . reason 1. the people that we now speak of , are so utterly ignorant , that it 's easy to deceive them . it 's no dishonour to truth , that a foole , or a child my be deluded : but such are not to be left to the malice and craft of jugling enemies . reason 2. so wicked are the hearts of those , that we now speak of ( or many of them ) that they are prepared for deceit , and willing of it materially , though not formally , as such . it 's easy drawing men from that which they hate , or their hearts are bent against , and to that which they love , and their hearts are set upon . such gunpowder will soon take fire . reason 3. our people by the foremencioned work of reformation , will undoubtedly be cast into discontents : they will be sorely displeased with their teachers ; which is a small matter , were it not that it hindreth their own salvation . they have so long been used to have their own will , and to be admitted even in heathenish ignorance and impiety to the communion of the saints , and all the outward priviledges , without any considerable exercise of discipline over them , that now it will be a strange provoking thing to them , when their custom shall be altered . so that in the discontent and hatred of their minds , if infidels , or papists , or any such malignant adversaries shall come among them , their own malignity and discontent , will drive them by multitudes into their nets ; and they will turn to the first that comes with any plausible though pernicious doctrine . with half an eie we may easily see this : and therefore , if the magistrate will not help us to quiet and secure the people , and keep off deceivers , while we are catechising , and instructing , and preparing the grosly ignorant and ungodly , it will be to the hazard of many thousand souls , and a temptation to many faint-hearted ministers , againe to cast open the hedge ▪ and lay the churches communion common , for feare of the ill consequence , that will follow to the people by displeasing them . and yet i may well conclude , that though still the church will have need of some of the magistrates help in this same way , yet nothing so much hereafter , as at first . 1 it is custom that most holdeth the people now , and enrageth them against the breakers of it . and when once the custom is broken and turned , they will be much more quiet . 2. we now find the churches in the rubbish , and have the harshest work at first to do , which will soone be over , and the churches and minds of men more setled . 3. a few yeares practise of confirmation , in the foredescribed way , i hope will introduce such abundance of knowledg , and so increase the face of godliness , that we shall have little need of the magistrates helpe , in this kind as now we have . but now at first our necessity is very great . reason 4. moreover , our doctrine and practice is most contrary to mens sinnes ▪ and carnall interest , and therefore though it be true , yet it is provoking , and seemeth to be against them ; as blood letting , fasting , and bitter medicines to a child , or a foolish patient . and therefore no wonder , if tolerated seducers can draw them from it , by sence or non-sence , in such a case . a little reason seemes to take men off from that , which seemes against them , or which they hate . reason 5. on the contrary , the doctrine and practice of deceivers , is suited to their nature , and purposely sugered for them by art. for instance : if papists fall in with them in the depth of their discontent , and first raile at us as no ministers , but lyars and hereticks ; and then revile us for receiving maintenance ( which is their way , though their clergie receive so exceedingly much more ) and then tell them of all their ancestours , and then set them upon an easy , outside piety , which ex opere operato , will certainly conferre grace , and shall take up at the strictest with an auricuar confession , instead of necessary humiliation and true church-discipline ; and shall make those veniall , and improper sinnes , which we make damnable ; and shall send many but to purgrtory , that according to scripture , we send to hell. in a word , when they shall comply with carnal hearts and interests , but as much , as montalte the jansenian sheweth us , that the jesuites do ; what wonder if our ignorant , discontented people , do greedily swallow such baits as these , and turn to such a kind of religiousness ? and this makes the jesuites glad of our reformation , and stand by us as the crows by sheep , that they may have our leavings , or all that we cut off : for it 's number that they regard ; and if they will but believe in the pope , they shall be welcom to them ; yea , be catholikes and be saved , though they believe not in christ and the holy ghost , nor know not what christianity is . he that thinks i wrong them : 1. let them look on millions , and millions in their churches . 2. let him but read * fr. a sancta clara , problem . 15 , & 16. reason 6. the adversaries also are very industrious , and have many advantages of us from without . in most churches they will meet , though with godly , yet with young , unexperienced disputers ; because our ministery is but reviving , and the young ones must have time to grow . and the jesuites , fryars and other missioners , have a pope and cardinals , and bishops , and princes , and lords , and revenews , and wealth , and seminaries , and trayned soldiers in abundance , at their backs beyond . sea , to furnish them with continual supply . and how eager and busy they are , the christian world hath had long experience : so that if such be let loose on ignorant souls , what wonder if they prevaile ? reason 7. and for the event , if the magistrates shall refuse us this reasonable and unquestionably lawfull aide , it may be the means of the damnation of many thousand souls . i suppose i speak to christians , that believe that sinne is the poyson of the soul , and believe that faith in christ is necessary , and that there is a heaven and a hell : and if so , they must needs understand , what it is , to suffer men to draw their subjects from christ , from scripture , from the meanes of grace , and a holy life ; and to draw them into sinne : that this is but to give men leave to do their worst , to undo and damne as many as they can ; and to take them at the greatest vantage in their ignorance and discontent to trip up their heels , and tise them into hell. how dreadfull a thing is this to a magistrate , once to think of , that hath but any belief of scripture , and pitty on the souls of men . and therefore ( as long as we do not now call upon them , so much as to force papists , or infidels either to be of our religion , or to profess that they are so , or joyne in communion with us , but only desire , that they may keep their venom to themselves , and may not be suffered to take the advantage of our peoples ignorance and discontent ) undoubtedly the rulers that are friends to christ , and the souls of men , will never find in their hearts , to deny this assistance . reason 8. and if they should deny it , in reason they must needs see , that they will fully give up the churches of christ , that are under their government , to distraction and confusion . they know well enough wh●t would come of it , if every man have but liberty to perswade their armies into mutinies and rebellion ; or to perswade the subjects against themselves , that rule them ; or to entice mens children , or servants to lewdness , or their wives to unchastity . and will they , under pretence of mercy or liberty , permit men to do that against christ , and the church , and the souls of many that are bad enough already , which they would not , they durst not permit against mens bodies , or against themselves , or against the peace of the common-wealth . and what a dishonour will it be to christ , to the church , and reformation , and religion ; and what a joy to all the enemies of these , to see that our reformation shall breed such confusion , and bring upon us such inconveniencies ? and all because the magistrate shall refuse his help . reason 9. and perhaps , the magistrates will quickly find , that the distractions of the church will breed , and feed such distractions in the common-wealth , as may make them wish they had quenched the fire , while it was yet quenchable . our unity is not only our strength , but their strength , especially if they promote it . our divisions weaken us as well as them . what will the magistrate do , if he help us not in this case ? ministers cannot in conscience alwaies forbeare their duty , but will set about it ? either the rulers will suffer us to do it , or not : if they suffer us and assist us , it will be our peace and theirs , and our peoples good : if they suffer us and assist us not , as is now desired , we shall exasperate so many of their sujects by our reformation , and shutting them from church communion , that will shake the peace of the common-wealth , and the odium will fly on the governours , for setting up a ministry that so provoketh them , and so the people will be still in discontents , and prepared for rebellion , or any violent change . and the fire that begun in the church , if it be let alone , may reach the court. but if to mend this , they will put down or hinder ministers , their persecution will bring gods judgments on them , and turn the hearts of honest , sober men against them . they have seen what deformation and persecution have done , before their eies . reason 10. lastly , it will bring a most heavy guilt on the magistrates soul , which he will never be able to stand under , before the king of all the world . to be guilty of the neglect of an office so divine , received from god , that it might be used for him ; and to be guilty of the frustrating of much of our ministerial work ; and of grieving the hearts of so many that feare god , and frustrating such hopes as we lately had , ( to say nothing of the prayers , teares , hazards , blood , and ruine of so many thousand , and the promises , oaths and covenants to god ) to be guilty of the sinnes of so many thousand , and of their everlasting condemnation ; to be guilty of the distractions , and betraying of the church , and cause , and people of the lord , and to be guilty of the insultings of so many enemies , all this and much more , that would certainly follow the denial of this moderate necessary help , would be a burden intollerable . direct . 7. but because both the magistrates , and many others are afraid , lest by going too far in such assistance , they may be guilty of persecution , by restraining men from preaching , or private peswasion , or by keeping the ignorant and wicked from church-communion , or by compelling them to come to heare ▪ and to be personally instructed , i humbly propound these following things , for such a regulation of their granted liberty , as may free them from all danger of persecuting , without depriving us of their principall help . 1. if you compel not the ignorant and ungodly to heare , and be pesonally instructed , by the minister of the parish where they live , yet at least compel them thus to submit to some minister : and let that minister certifie under his hand , that he takes care of him as a catechumene , or expectant , by publike and private instruction . 2. let not every man that will , be tolerated either to teach , perswade , or hold assemblies ; but let your toleration be regulated , as well as your approbation is . to which end 1. let such persons as are thought meet for such a worke , be appointed as comissioners , to approve , or judge of such as shall be tolerated through the land , as the commissioners now approved of such , as shall have the publike maintenance . for there is no reason , that the tollerated should not go under tryal , as well as the allowed . and indeed without some such course to keep the doore of toleration , as well as the doore of publike allowed teachers , you cannot put any reasonable laws for toleration in execution ; but any will come in , what ever your law say . 2. let these commissionets for trying the tolerated , have rules given them by the lawgivers , whom to licence , or tolerate , and whom not . 3. let all that will gather assemblies , or administer sacraments , or preach , have an instrument of toleration , under the hands and seale of these commissioners , and let them be hindered , that have no such instrument . otherwise if you stay till they are convict of blasphemie , they may do more mischief first , ( for who will persecute them ) then ever the magistrate can comfortably be accountable to god for suffering . 7. when a man hath a sealed toleration , to preach , or hold assemblies , let him yet be as liable to any just accusation , before the commissioners for ejection , as the approved , publike ministers are : that so if he be proved to be wicked and scandalous , or to preach any thing excepted from toleration , by the legislatours , the said commissioners may be authorized , to deprive them of their toleration , as they do others of their publique station and maintenance . and this is a most rersonable and necessary thing . 1. for else the publike ministers will be hardlier dealt with then they . it is supposed that there 's so much difference in the soundess of their doctrine , that one deserveth the publike encouragement , as well as the other deserveth a toleration : or else the law-givers , would make no difference . and that being supposed , if they shall not be questionable , as well as we , nor their right forfeitable as well as ours , they are more cherished proportionably then others . 2. and if you do not this , it 's as good do nothing , but openly license heathens , and papists , and all blaspheamers : for they will make a faire confession , till they have got their seald toleration , and then preach contrary to that profession . two sorts we know this to be true by : 1 ▪ papists , that are for equivocation , and mental reservation , in their professions and oathes : or for the popes to dispense with them . 2. heathens and infidels that believe not , that there is any sinne , or devil , or hell , or heaven , and therefore care not what they sweare . and indeed these are the two sects that now are up : and all other are like to fall into these . alas by sad experience i speake it : those that will openly , and to my face make an orthodoxe confession , do secretly harden many poor souls , by making a scorne of scripture , as a fable , and of the immortality of the soul , and of christ and the holy ghost , and heaven and hell , and say all these are nothing , but the inventions of men , and that the k●ave-priests do perswade men that there are devils , and hell , as a bugbeare to make them do what they would have them , and all religion is but deceit . such heathens , are the predominant sect in many places , and higher in england , then once i thought to have seen them . and if all such perfidious infidels and jesuites , shall have leave to b●aspheame god , christ , and scripture , because they once made an orthoeoxe profession , then let hell be turned loose upon our people , and the devil that was bound up from deceiving the nations , have a toleration from the magistrate to do his worst . thus i have shewed that magistrates , if they will , may helpe the church without any danger of persecuting the truth , if they take not popery , damnable heresie , and heathenism for truth . 1. if the approvers keep the doore of toleration , as well as of publike maintenance and ministry . 2. if a church justice , or civil agent , do keep the churches peace . 3. if the civil visiter do purposely take cognisance of the state of parishes , and see the laws put in execution . 4. if the commissioners for ejections , have power of judging all seducers , and blaspheamers , as well as the publike ministers . and if these only have the coercive power ; but some able , chosen , godly ministers be joyned with them for advice and exhortation : as magistrates and ministers sate together before the daies of william the conquerour . joh. 13. 17. if ye know these things , happy are ye if ye do them . luke 12. 47. and the servant which knew his lords will , and prepared not , nor did according to his will , shall be beaten much . finitur hebr. 13. 1648. postscript . reader , as great and needfull a duty as this is , that i have here proposed , and as clear as it is , and commonly agreed on by all the parties before mentioned , i am yet far from expecting , that all men should acknowledg it and obey it ; or that no person of contrary apprehensions or intentions , should rise up against it as an enemy , with all the strength that the measure of his wit and passions can prepare . we cannot speak for god himself , for christ , for scripture , for mens own salvation , but we meet with contradiction and resistance , even from them that we would save . and were it not for this , what blessed work would the gospel make ? and why might we not hope , that all our people should be saved ? no wonder then , if when ever we attempt reformation or reconciliation , we meet with learned , reverend brethen that come against us , armed with plausible cavils , and contempts , and cast away the medicine as dangerous , or ungratefull , and strenuously vindicate the disease that should be healed : and were it not that the church hath many , very many such , what should have kept us unhealed so long ? and who could have continued our deformities and divisions , and frustrated such means as have been used for our cure ? satan is not so poore a politician , as to be without his agents in our ecclesiastike armies , and councils , and pulpits to speak for his cause and do his work , and resist and frustrate that which would displease him ; and all this under pretence of enmity to satan , and friendship to christ , and a better doing of his work . as the names of the chiefest of christ servants , were not cast out as holy , but as evil , luk. 6. 22. so their doctrine was not cast out as truth , nor as saving , but as deceit . and his meanes will not be openly resisted , ( at least by those that are building with us ) as reforming or reconciling , but as groundless or unproved , or troublesome , or unseasonable , or as suspected of some ill designe , or event . some will say , it is meere prelacie , or a prelatical designe : and some that it is independancie , or an independant designe : and some that it is but presby●erian examination . whereas they might know , that it is proper to none of them , which is common to them all . if it be prelacie , how comes it to be found with independants ? if it be independancy , how comes it to be approved by prelates , and presbyterians ? is it not rather like christianity it self , and the truths and duties which we commonly own ; and therefore not to be appropriated to any . by all that i have heard and read of late , concerning this subject , i understand that the principal objections that are likely to be used against the doctrine of this treatise , are these following . object . we were all baptized in our infancy , and therefore are church-members , and have right to the priviledges of the adult , when we are adult , without any new title or condition : our first right continueth , though we never make profession of the christian faith , nor personally renewed the covenant with god that we made in baptism . and therefore though in some cases , such an approved profession be a duty , yet is not any more necessary to our church-state , and right to the communion of the adult , then that we were borne church-members , and so baptized . nothing but heresie , schisme , or apostacie can cut us ●ff . and therefore all that were baptized , and are not thus cut off , are still church-members , and have right to all the ordinances in the church . answ . 1. i have said enough to this already to satisfie the considerate impartial reader ; proving the necessity of a personall faith before god , and of some profession of it ecclesia judice , before the church , to the being of the said title of the adult , as its condition : and that all scripture-examples do make for the confirmation of this truth . moreover let me adde , to answer the new , or foreseen assaults , 1. if there be no word of promise in the scripture , that giveth the priviledge of adult-communion to any , upon their infant title-condition only , nor any example in the gospel , or the ancient church , that any possessed or used that priviledg upon that title-condition only , then are we not to imagine that the infant title-condition alone , is sufficient to the said priviledge : but the antecedent is true ; as hath in part been manifested , and will be more , when the dissenter shall bring forth his pretended evidences , by which his title should be proved . 2. the title-condition of infants is not sufficient to make any morally capable of the ends of adult . communion : therefore it is not sufficient to make them capable of a proper , plenary right to such communion . for the right and relation are for these ends ; if a natural incapacity may consist with a plenary title , so cannot a moral . no man can really possess and exercise the communion of the adult intrinsically without faith , or extrinsecall without profession of faith : therefore no man without faith or profession of faith , can have a plenary right to that communion . for a man to have a plenary right to praise god , and celeberate with the church the memorial of our redemption , and participate of the redeemer , and his benefits , that believeth not in him , is a palpable absurdity . 3. if the meer title-condition of infants will serve in foro ecclesiae , for the adult ▪ then it will serve also in foro dei : for the church looks but to the outward appearance , or visibility of that , whose reality and sincerity god expecteth . and it is gods covenant that giveth us our right : and therefore if the churh fin● us to have true right , it must find us receiving it from gods covenant ; and therefore find us the heires of takes prom●se : the reason why the church takes our birth priviledges for a sufficient title-condition , is because god is supposed so to take it . but that this will not serve the adult in foro dei is manifest ; because god will not own such infidels , as neither have faith , nor a profession of it . 4. if the litle-condition of infidels may serve them when adult , then is there no personal difference in acts , or qualities ; no not so much as in profession , required on our part , to distinguish christians from infidels and ath●ists : ( required i mean as necessary conditions ) but the consequent is absurd : therefore so is the antecedent . if no di●ferencing character between actual believers and infidels or atheists , be made thus necessary , then the church and the infidel world , are laid together ; and the body of christ , and consequently christ himself is dishonoured , and blaspheamed , as common and uncleane . but if any personal difference be necess●ry , it must be the personal profession of christianity , or nothing lesse then this can be it . for our birth-priviledge cannot be it . atheists and infidels are borne of christian parents . much of the turkish army of jani●aries , have their birth-priviledges to shew , as well as we it is a probable argument : such an infant is horne of christian parents : therefore he will be an actual believer . but it is not a probable argument , such a man at age , that professeth not christianity , had christian parents ; therefore he is a believer : much less ; therefore he had right to the benefits of the covenant , whether he be an actual believer or not . if christians have no visible note , by which they must be known from infidels , then either the church is not visible , or infidels may be the visible church , without so much as disowning their infidelity . 5. if the title-condition of infants may suffice the adult for church-right and communion , then hereticks and apostates have such right : but the consequent is denyed by them that i now dispute with . they confess that heresie and some schism , and apostacie , do cut off from the church , and so from this right . but it 's plaine that such hereticks and apostates have that which was their infant-condition : as they were the seed of believers in infancy , so they are since apostacy : they cease not to be the seed of believers , by their renouncing christ . if this therefore would prove a right in silent infidels , it will prove a right in profest apostates . object . the apostates cast away their right , and therefore have it not . answ . 1. either it dependeth on their own wi●● when they come to age , or not . if it do ●●t , then they cannot cast it away . they may refuse to use their right , but they cannot cast it away , or nullifie it : for they cannot make themselves not to be the children of christian parents . the foundation stands whether they will or no : and therefore so must the relation . but if the relation or right do now depend upon their own wills , then our cause is granted ; for from their wills then must the condition , or evidence be fe●cht . 2. yea such persons , ordinarily as we have now in question , are actual apostates , and are so to be taken by the church ; and therefore not to be taken as church-members , having right to sacraments . he that being engaged to god the father , sonne , and holy ghost in his infancy , doth make no profession of actual faith at full age , is ordinarily to be taken for an apostate : but such are the persons in question . i say ordinarily , because i except them that have been cast upon natural impossibilities or impotency , or wanted a call and opportunity : that is , all persons that prove ideo●s , or deafe and dumbe , or otherwise destitute of natural capacity ; such come not to the use of reason and free-will , and therefore are no● bound to actual beleif . such also as have their tongues cut out , are separated from humane society , or otherwise disabled from profession . but for the common case of mankind . 1. it is plaine that they have their tongues given them by nature of express their minds ; and 2. that christ commandeth confession with the tongue , and professing him before men . 3. that much of his worship lieth in holy profession , and all of it containeth answerable profession . 4. that we have constant calls from god , even to profess our christianity : the godly and the wicked that live among us call us to it : we have daily invitations to profess out christianity one way or other . and among all these occasions of profession , he that professeth not , is to be taken for an infidel and apostate . for the business is so exceeding great and weighty , and the object so glorious , and the duty so incumbent , and the very life of christianity so inconsistent with a non-profession , that we have just reason to conclude , that he that professeth not himself a christian , ordinarily is to be taken for none by the church . object . but though at the first admitting of a forrainer into a common-wealth , you require an oath of fidelity , or profession of subj●ction , yet when we are borne subjects , we must be supposed to continue such , till we rebel , and so declare the contrary ; and our fidelity is not to be qu●stioned . answ . 1. the case doth exceedingly differ from ours in hand . princes vary their commands as their affaires require . if you are borne in the midst of a peaceable republike , you may perhaps have no oath of fidelity imposed , because the peace of the commom-wealth requireth it not : for while there is no enemy neer you , to solicite you to rebellion or treason , or with whom you may conjoyn , it is supposed , that you have either no mind , or no power to it . and it is only the common peace that is concerned in the cause . but our case is otherwise : for we live among devils and wicked men , and are known to have hearts our selves , that are naturally treacherous , and at enmity to god. so that we are still among enemies , that would seduce us , and with whom we are enclined to take part . and besides that , our profession is not only necessary to the common safety , but to our personal performances , and daily communion with the saints , and worship of god. 2. if it be in a garison that 's neer the enemy , or in a country that is inclined to rebellion , or where rebellion is on foot , and the enemy hat a party , there princes use to cause all their subjects to take an oath of fidelity ; and ordinarily also in peaceable kingdoms this is practised : at such an age all persons are to take an oath of allegiance , or fidelity , or to make profession of their subjection , in many places : and in other places they do it , before they enter upon any office. and if you will come neerer the case , and suppose that men were borne in a schoole , or an army , as well as a republike , i think you would yield , that when they come to age , it is necessary that they have more then their birth-priviledg to shew , to prove them schollars , or soldiers . we are christs disciples and soldiers , as well as his subjects ; and one is as essential to our christianity as the other . we may be initiated into his school and army in our infancy , and so stand related to him : but sure we are apostates , if when we come to age , we have nothing to shew but our meer infant-condition ; and to more we must be called . 3. the case also differeth in this : princes do make known to all in their laws , that no man that is an enemy , yea or that is not ( pro tempore ) a subject , shall dwell on their soile , among their subjects : they suffer not subjects and enemies to live promiscuously together in their dominions : and therefore it is supposed that a mans very abode and residence in their land , is a profession of subj●ction : much more when they live in obedience to the laws , and hold their estates by them . but christ dealeth not thus : he suffereth believers and infidels to live together , and his flock to be but little in the world ; so that it cannot be the least presumption , that a man is a christian , because he liveth among christians . 4. at least let us not teach christ , what he should have done , when we find he hath done otherwise ; we find that he requireth personall faith and profession of all at age , that are naturally capable ; and therefore we must perform it , and not give reasons why we should not do it . no good subject that 's called to profess his fidelity will ref●se , and say , you have no reason to question me , and put such a tryall or obligation upon me . so that i may conclude , that an adult person not professing christianity is not a visible christian , notwithstanding his birth priviledges : and therefore not a visible church-member ; and therefore an apostate , seeing he was once engaged in covenant to christ , ( though not an apostate from actuall faith ) and therefore such as hath no proper right to church-communion and priviledges . object . if his infant title be cut off , it is either by ignorance , wickednesse , heresie , or schism , or apostacie : but ignorance and wickedness do not cut him off ; and heresie , schism , or apostacie he is not guilty of ; therefo●e , &c. answ . 1. his infant title will cease of it self without any other cutting off , if it be not continued by his personall actuall believing , when he comes to capable age . his birth-priviledges alone , or his parents dedicating him to god in baptism , will serve no longer of it self . it is therefore for want of personal faith coram deo , and of the profession of faith coram ecclesiâ , that his right doth cease . 2. ignorance , where it proveth infidelity , must needs prove a cessation of the infant title , when they come to a capable age , and ignorance is privative . he that knoweth not , that there is a god , a christ , or what he hath done for us , or what a christian is , can have no faith in god , or christ ; and therefore is an atheist , and an infidell privatively , if at a capable age , among meanes at least . it is not only he that denyeth christ , that is an infidell , but he that never heard of him , negatively at least ; and he that having heard of him , understood not what he heard , and therefore believeth not in him , because he knoweth not . and it is not only he that denyeth god , that is an atheist , but he that knoweth not that there is a god. and therefore if ingorance cut not off , then infidelity and atheism cut not off . and if neither of these cut off , then no particular heresie can : nor any such apostasie , as men are capable of , that had but an infant church-state : gross ignorance at a capable age , proveth gross ungodlinesse , and apostasie . for if mens hearts had been towards god , they would have sought to know him , and if they know him not , their hearts are atheisticall , and without him . 3. wickedness is either such as may consist with habituall adhering to god in christ ; or such as shews a separation or renunciation ; the one being ungodliness partiall , and quoad actum particularem , ( as peter's deniall ) and the other being ungodlinesse quoad statum . he that saith the former cutteth not off from the church , will scarcely say , that it doth not meritoriously suspend the offender from the communion of the church , till he appear penitent . and he that saith the latter cuts not off , from the church meritoriously , must say that nothing doth it . for this is apostacie , and comprehendeth the greatest heresie . such hereticks , hold that the pleasure of sin for a season , is to be chosen before a life of holiness with the hopes of everlasting life ; and the flesh to be pleased before the lord : and i think this is heresie . but whether these be cut off from the church or not , either they bring the person under the guilt of excommunication , or else there is no excommunication to be used . and if they be excommunicated , we shall not much contend with you about their rights . as long as you grant that they have no such right as that they may have the use of church communion , we are satisfied . and yet i must say , that it is a blind conclusion , that the excommunicate are church-members , without distinguishing of excommunication . if a man shall openly declare that he believeth not in jesus christ that dyed at jerusalem , nor that there is any life to come ; but yet he believeth in a christ within him , and a heaven and hell within men ; ( as the ranters , familists , &c. did ) and yet this man , that he may pervert the souls of others , will hold communion with the church , and declare , that he takes the scripture in his sense , i doubt not but this man , though a professed infidell and apostate , is yet to be excommunicated , while he pretendeth to communion ; and if this excommunicate man be not out of the catholike church , then no man is out of it , and you may next question whether the devill be not a member , that believeth much more then he . but when i say that infidelity , impiety , heresie , do cut off or cast out , i meane it but meritoriously . either these crimes are private and unknown , or provable if not provable , then they merit this , and more coram deo , but not ecclesiâ judice , that is , though there be guilt or demerits , yet we are no capable judges of it . but if the crime be provable , then it is either such , as needs a judgment or not ▪ if it need a judgement , the person is only de jur● cast out before the sentence ( which is terminus diminuens and is no● actuall casting out ) and he is actually cast out by the sentence , and the execution : so that his sin cast him out meritoriously , the law obligatorily , the paflors of the church sententially , and the whole church , pastors and people , executively in avoiding him . but if there need no judgement , then he is excommunicate actually ipso jure , by the law alone without a judge , which may be in many a cas●● a● if he be a notorious infidell , atheist , blaspheamer , or notoriously beyond all doubt and controversie one of those , that the law commands us to avoid ; we must execute this law , though there be no sentence pronounced . the want of a mans sentence will not excuse us from obeying gods laws . and where there is no controversie through the notoriousness of the case , there needs no judge . 6. if birth-priviledge will serve alone for the adult to prove their title to the church-state and priviledges of the adult , then no man that is born of christian paren●s can be obnoxious to excommunication , or justly excommunicate : for he is still a child of believing parents : and no sin will make them otherwise . and therefore if that were enough , he hath a good title still . nay it would follow that he cannot apostatize ; for he cannot fall away from this . but the consequence is absurd , therefore so is the antecedent . 7. if infant title only be sufficient to the adult , then no parent is necessarily oblieged to professe himself a christ●a● , or actuall believer , in order to prove the interest of his child to baptism ( nor any that offer him in the parents stead . ) for it is sufficient if the parents ( or susceptors ) say , we were infant-members and baptized , and therefore our child must be so : but whether we are actuall believers , now , it is not necessary that we tell you but the consequent is so absurd , that whoever should have offered a child to baptism on these terms in the a●cient church , ( or any church that i know of , till very lately ) would have been rejected . the acceptance and baptism of our infants , is one of the priviledges of believers : but no one hath right to this priviledg ( that his children be thus accepted into the church ) upon a bare infant-title , without the profession of a personall actuall ●aith . therefore , &c. 8. if the opposed doctrine should hold good , then all the world hath right to church-communion ▪ ( or m●llions of infidels , at least ) but the consequent is false : therefore so is the antecedent . the reason of the consequence is plain ; because noah was a church-member , and all the world came out of his loynes : and the men of thracia , bithynia , and most of asia , where mahomet is worshipped , may say , our ancestors were christians : therefore the birth-priviledges still going down from generation to generation even to the thousandth generation , it must follow , that the present generation of mahometans and other infidels , are church-member● still : for they lost not their naturall relation to their parents . 9. it will not prove a society of adult persons to be a christian church , if they have no more but their infant-condition : therefore it will not prove a single person to be a member of the church . that which is necessary to make a society , a christian society , is necessary to make a person , a christian person . but i hope none will deny , but that some kind of profession is necessary to make , or prove a company of men , to be a christian church : therefore some profession is necessary to make , or prove a man , to be a church-member . 10. if infant-conditions will suffice to the adult for church-membership , and common priviledges , then will they serve for justification , and salvation , that are speciall priviledges : but the consequent is false : therefore so is the antecedent . the reason of the consequence is , because though the benefits be various , yet the covenant and conditions are the same , by which we have right to one and to the other . it is the appearance of the same faith , by profession before men , that give title , coram ecclesiâ , whose inward sincerity giveth right coram deo , ( as was aforesaid ) and god giveth title to all the blessings of the covenant , coram deo on the same conditions . and there is also a parity of reason . for if it be enough to prove our right to adult communion ( to praise god , and have all his ordinances and helps in the church , &c. ) that we had christian parents , then must it be enough to prove our title in all the rest of our benefits . the ancient fathers and churches thought that baptism did as certainly give the infant rightly baptized , a right to pardon of originall sin , and eternall life , a● to outward church-priviledges . and if the same covenant give both on the same condition , then he that hath the condition of one , hath of both . i have proved in another disputation , that god hath not two covenants of grace on his part , one of spirituall or inward mercies , and another of outward ordinances ; and that he giveth not these inward benefits and the outward signes of them , upon various conditions , but on the same . 11. faith or the profession of it in the adult , is either necessary to church-communion , or unnecessary ; if unnecessary , then christians have no more to do in the church then heathens ; if necessary , then either as a meer duty , or as a condition , or other means not as a meer duty● for then still the infidels should be equally received , though not applauded : it must be therefore necessary as a meanes . and the very words of the promise tells us what sort of meanes it is , that makes faith to be its condition . 12. i would know of my adversary , what he would do with the son of a believer that were unbaptized at 40. or 50. years of age ? would be baptize him without a profession of actuall faith of his own , or not ? if he would , then he would make new fashioned christians and churches ; and might baptize all the posterity of the apostates , or the ancient christians in the world , that would consent . yea , he could not indeed baptize them ; for baptism essentially containeth a profession of consent unto the covenant ▪ which therefore others make for infants , that have the dispose of them . but if he would not baptize such , without profession , then it seems he takes not their birth-priviledges to be a sufficient condition of their title thereunto . 13. a covenant breaker can claim no right to the benefits of the covenant ( supposing him to violate the main conditions on which the benefits are suspended ) but all those at capable age that have nothing but their infant condition to shew , are covenant breakers : therefore they have no right to the benefits of the covenant they therefore were engaged personally to be●ieve in god the father , son , and holy ghost , when they came to the use of reason ; we have cause therefore to see whether they have broke , or kept this covenant ; and if they have broke it , they can at present claim no title to the benefits . 14. he that cometh to god must believe that god is , and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him : therefore those that profess not this belief , cannot come to god , and consequently not have communion with the church . without faith it is impossible to please god , heb. 11. 5 , 6. therefore without a profession of faith , it is impossible to have right to just communion ; which is purposely for the pleasing of god. object . but ( its said ) infants have faith ; that is , a relative faith , and a faderall faith , as well as a relative faederall holiness ▪ their right is not only in their parents , but in themselves ; and therefore their faith is in themselves : and this continueth with the aged , till heresie and schisme cut it off . answ . call any thing under heaven by the name of faith , so you will but explain your meaning , and we will quarrell as little as may be with you about words : but little know we what you mean by relative or faederall faith , unless it be plainly , to be semen fidelium , the seed of believers : that there is a relative and faederall holiness , is scripture doctrine , and good sense : for the formall nature of the thing is a relation which commonly is expressed by the name of holiness , and which in that phrase is implyed . but i remember not that scripture ever speaks of a relative or faederall faith : for i believe not that it was infants , that christ calls the little o●es that believe in him . and faith being an act or habit , you must mean some other species of faith , which consisteth in relation . i know it not , nor will i use your language ; though i think it more tolerable to call the infant relatively a believer , then to say he hath relative faith ; for in so saying , no more is meant , but that he is a disciple of christ , or belongs to him as he is the seed of a believer in covenant . but let this word of faederall relative faith be used by you as you please : if the thing signified by it be any more then i have expressed , you should tell us what you mean : if it be no more but to be the seed of a believer , then we doubt not but thi● continueth when they come to age : but it doth them no good at age , as to the continuing of their title to church-membership before god without a faith of their own , nor before the church without a profession of it . that the infant himself is the subject of h●s own right , is a thing that no man , that i know makes doubt of , that believeth him to have any right : but the active main condition of that right is not to be performed by himself but by the parent ; and only the passive condition is to be found in himself , that he be the seed of that parent : if he must be a believers seed , it s the parent that must believe : but that will not serve his turne at age , if he do not also believe himself . 15. it is granted by the dissenters , that the ignorant , for all their infant title , have no immediate right to the communion of the church . and we will not contend about names : this satisfieth us in the maine . it is not actuall right , if it be not immediate plenary right : that which they call a remote right , is properly no actuall right , but a term of diminution , as to it ; when right hath two conditions , you may call it right , when the first and greatest is performed : but actually it is none , till all be performed : for it is still but conditionall , while any part of the condition is unperformed , saith learned mr fullwood . page 274. the rule to give all their due , is of indispensable obligation : but seeing ignorant persons , have no such immediate right in the supper , what injury or wrong is there done them ? object but ignorance doth not wholly cut a man off from the church : for such a knowledge goeth not to the ●ssence of the church ; for ●●s fo●m is society or community . answer . 1. it s sufficient to our present purpose , that it excludeth men meritoriously from immediate right to the communion of the adult . 2. ignorance qua talis materially , is no sin ( as in ideots , paralyticks , &c. ) and therfore cuts not off . but ignorance in a subject , where knowledg should be found , is culpable , and complicate alwaies with infidelity , or not believing ; and therefore doth declare the person to be matter uncapable . if you choose to say , it cuts not off , i easily can prove , that it manifesteth that he is not in the invisible , and ought not to be esteemed of the visible church , by reason of his incapacity ; his former title ceasing , for want of the condition of its continuation . 3. knowledge in the capable adult , is an essentiall to the church , as a society . a church is a society of christians ; as it is a society , christianity is not essentiall to it , and so not knowledge : for there are societies of heathens , and infidels enow . but as it is a christian society , knowledge is essentiall to it ; and therefore , as it is a church . it 's essentiall to a field of wheat , that there be wheat in it : or to a heape of wheat , that it be of wheat . and yet not as a field , or as a heap : for there are heaps of dirt also . the aggregation of a number of individuals , makes it a community , and the form of the body aggregated , as to the mutuall relation of the parts , makes it a body politick or society . but the essentiall qualification of the individuals , viz christianity , is essentiall to that society in specie , as a christian church . and faith in the adult is essentiall to christianity , and knowledge is essentiall to faith , or inseparable from it . object . then one should not take another to be a church-member , till he is satisfied of his knowledge , which were a stranger thing . answ . not so strange as true : supposing him an adult person capable of knowledg . for he cannot be satisfied of his faith , without being satisfied of knowledg : nor of his christianity without his faith : for we are yet unacquainted with the christian infidels . but then consider , what must be satisfactory to other men concerning their brothers knowledg . it must satisfie them , that he is by the pastours of the church , who are to judge , approved and annumerated with believers : and that he professeth himself to be a believer , which cannot be without knowledge : this must satisfie them , till he nullifie this evidence , by a clean bewraying of his infidelity . object . but the scripture saith not that ignorant persons cannot be church-members , or so much as that they ought meerly for their ignorance to be excommunicate . answ . doth not the scripture exclude visible unbelievers , and take in only visible believers ( of the adult ) and make the church a society of believers separated from unbelievers ? such ignorance therefore as is essentiall to , or inseparable from infidelity , is in scripture made the very brand of them , that are without , excluded from the church . if our gospell be hid , it is hid to them that are lost , in whom the god of this world hath blinded the mindes of them that believe not , lest the light of the glorious gospell of christ , &c. 2 cor. 4. 3 , 4. that preaching which discipleth men , mat. 28. 19. doth give them knowledg , or else it could not give them faith. for it openeth their eyes and turneth them from darkness to light , &c. act. 26. 18. and surely we are translated out of the power of darknesse into the kingdome of christ , col. 1. 14. those that in time past were not a people , but now are the people of the living god , are called out of darknesse into his marvellous light , 1 pet. 2. 9 , 10. and what communion hath light with darknesse , righteousnesse with unrighteousnesse , christ with beliall , the believer with the infidell , 2 cor. 6. 14 , 15 , 16. object . if knowledg as such , were necessary to membership , then none could be a member without it : but that 's not so . answ . 1. knowledg as such is necessary no otherwise , then faith as such , and all one ; you may therefore as well plead thus against the necessity of faith. 2. and we grant that neither knowledg , nor faith , are necessary to uncapable subjects , that is , in themselves . you know faith in infants , ( such as we call faith ) is not necessary to their justification ; and yet will you say , it is not necessary to the adult ? the promise hath made it necessary to the capable . 3. and we grant that neither knowledg , nor faith ( justifying or dogmaticall ) are necessary to the being of a visible member , that is meerly such : god only seeth the heart . but yet the appearance or profession of faith , and so of knowledge , in the essentials of christianity , is of necessity . 4. but though a personall faith , or knowledg , in truth or in profession , be not necessary to an infant , either for membership or justification , yet their parents faith or profession is necessary : or else the promise is to more , then believers and their seed , quod restat probandum . object . but a negative consent is sufficient , to continue such in covenant , as before were admitted in infancy , or at age : and this negative consent , is but non-actuall dissent , or a non-renouncing of the gospell : and therefore , as posi●ive consent , so actuall faith and knowledge , are not necessary . answ . a dangerous doctrine ! a negative consent is no consent . why then should the ears of men be abused by the ●ame , when there is nothing to answer it ? a negative faith , in english is infidelity , or not believing . is not this a delusory teaching of the church , to call unbelief by the name of negative faith , or negative consent ? if a block , a bruit , or a subject otherwise naturally uncapable , be the subject ; then indeed it is inculpable , and your negative consent or faith , is properly but a negative dissent , or unbelief . but if a capable oblieged person be the subject ( which is our case ) then your negative consent is in english privative not consenting , and privative unbelief , or rejecting christ . what a meanness is here to convey flat infidels into the church , or continue them there , under the cloake of an abusive name ! even by calling a non-dissenting conjunct with their infidelity , or not consenting to the covenant of grace , by the name of negative consent . were it a person that had entered at age , yet if he have afterward but your negative consent , ( which is neither to consent or dissent ) he is an apostate : and if he refuse consent , when called to it , by his lawfull governours , he gives occasion to be suspected of apostacie , much more when he continueth to refuse consent , when so much of the life and practise of christianity consisteth in it , and in the manifestation of it . but especially when persons were baptized in infancy , and never yet professed a faith or consent of their own . if that man that had no faith but his parents , ( and his being a believers seed , which you call faederall faith ) shall be continued at age a member of the church , by a not-actuall dissenting or renouncing christ , by expresse words , then le ts talk no more of a church , nor abuse poor heathens and infidels so much as to question their salvation , or let them below us . but again , i answer you , that not consenting , is dissenting in the inward act ; it is undoubted , that he that for one year , or moneth doth not consent , doth certainly dissent . there 's no middle state between believers and infidels ; consenters , and refusers . how shall they escape that neglect of so great salvation ? neglecting , and not consenting in a capable invited subject is certain infidelity : and therefore in the externall profession , we must judge accordingly . he that will not confess christ , even in a christian church , and a peaceable age , deserves not to be called a christian : he that is not for him is against him . object . but gods covenant-people under the law , were not only admitted without their voluntary consent or knowledg , but commanded to renue their covenant in such a manner , as that they that were absent , and not in place to expresse consent , were included in those that were present . answ . 1. none but infants were admitted without consent : nor they without the consent of their parents , naturall or civill , that had the power of disposing of them . 2. those that were admitted upon others consent , were not continued at age without their own . 3. the covenant , deut. 29. 11 , 12 , 15. was no mutuall covenant to the absent or unborn there mentioned : but only a covenant offered to the nation , and conditionally made on gods part as a promise , to them and their posterity , even to many generations : but those unborn generations , were not in covenant on their parts , as promisers in the stipulation . object . wickedness it self doth not put a man out of the visible church . for a man is said to be cut off , but either de jure , or de facto ; meritoriously , or effectually : the former is improperly called cutting off , being but the desert of it : therefore if those baptized in infancy , prove afterward wicked , they are not thereby cut off . answ . 1. such persons as we have in question , lose their right and title by a cessation , for want of that personal condition , which the covenant made necessary to its continuance . so that we need not prove any other cutting off . 2. if he be but meritoriously cut off , it is the churches duty to do it sententially and executively ; it being of indispensable obligation , to give to all their due . 3. it 's granted that heresie cuts off : but how doth heresie cut off any otherwise then meritorio●sly ? if therefore wickedness do as much as heresie , then thus far they are equal . 4. either wickedness signifieth some actual crime like davids or peters , when the church knoweth not whether it be joyned with habitual impenitence , or else it signifieth habitual stated wickedness with impenitency . the first sort requireth but an exclusion from actual church-communion , ( called suspension by some ) as it is but actual sinne , that deserveth it . the second sort must have an exclusion from their state and church-relation , as it is a state of impenitency , that deserveth it . the first sort of excommunication , leaveth a man in the church , quoad statum & relationem , but out of it quoad actum & usum : the the second sort leaves him out of it , both in state and act. not that the excomunication puts him out of the church , as invisible : for that he did first himself meritoriously , and so efficiently ; even by the efficiency of his demerits ; as the law of christ did it , by its obligatory efficiency : but when he hath put himself out of the church invisible , and plainly declared this to the church by his imp●nitent courses , the church further declareth it by their sentence , and puts him out of the church visible executively , when he had before , put out himself meritoriously . 5. as i said before , the persons wickedness is either notorious and out of question , ( as if a man be an open persecutour of godliness , or daily blaspheame god in the open streets , or congregation , and many lower cases ) or else it is controvertible , needing proof , and not notorious . in the latter case a wicked man is not actually cast out of the communion of the visible church , or cut off from it , by his demerits , till his fault be proved , and sentence be passed . but in the former case he is excommmunicate ipso jure , which is more then de jure . we call him excommunicate de jure , who ought to be excommucatenicate de facto : but we call him excommuni ipso jure , which is actually excommunicated by the law , without any further sentence of a judge , the law it self sufficing to enable men to the execution : so the law of christ commanding us to avoid and have no company with drunkards , adulterers , hereticks , &c. if any be notoriously such , past doubt , every man is obliged by this l●w to avoid them in their several capacities , after the due admonitions given them , which the law requireth , whether the pastours censure them or no : but his censure layeth on them a double obligation . object . if wickedness cut off a man , excommunication cannot do it , because it is done already . answ . if wickedness being not notorious do only cut him off meritoriously and de jure only he be excommunicate , then actual excommunication must do that which was not actually done , but ought to be done . but if by the notoriety of the crime he be cut off ipso jure , the sentence yet may do the same thing , by adding a second obligation to the first . a traitour in actual prosecution of the soveraigne , seeking his life , is condemned ipso jure , and any subject may kill him without sentence : and yet he may be proclaimed or sentenced a traitour for all that . object . it is proved by some writers , that such persons as have neither grace indeed nor in shew , may yet have both a real and visible interest in the covenant and church : and the arguments for this are yet unanswered : therefore persons baptized in infancy are in the church and covenant at age , though they never by profession made so much as a shew of grace . answ . it was never proved by any writer , nor ever will be , that any person at age , and natural capacity ought to be a member of the church of christ , under the gospel ( no nor under the law neither ) without a shew of grace , even of faith , by his profession of consent to the holy covenant . it 's the arguments against them that remaine unanswered : but that all their arguments , that i remember , are sufficiently answered , i shall take for granted , till i see a reply . and for them that tell us of the church membership of the adult , considered without respect to saving grace , i shall regard them , when they have proved , either that faith and repentance are no saving graces ; or that profession of faith hath no respect to faith ; or that men may have title to church-membership , without respect to profession of faith ; even of their parents , if they are infants ; or their own if at age . all these three points are yet unproved . if any think the learned mr. fullwood to be of another mind , let them judg by his own words : of the visible church , cap. 28. pag. 180. saith he ; church-membe●ship&c . mark the parenthesis . and in his epist . propos . 3. & 4. from the pr●mises it seems at least probable to me , that the church is to have some kind of respect unto the saving condition of the person shee is about to admit into communion , &c. 4. yet i humbly conceive that more then a bare outward profession is requisite , to give real interest in the visible church , and the priviledges thereof , before god ; though no more is requisite to give visible interest before men , &c. and for immediate right to the communion of the church in the lords supper , he saith , pag. 270. where there is want of knowledg ( whether naturally or morally ) there , we are sure , the condition of right is wanting ; and consequently admission is to be denied , when all is done . and for the maine designe of this book , he saith , append. pag. 1 , 2. ( mentioning mr. hanmer's book ) some happily may be willing to surmise that our two propositions are irreconcileable , and interpret me an enemy to that most ancient , usefull , and desireable ordinance . wherefore , if i may possibly prevent so scandalous a censure , i shall not venture to hold my reader in so long suspence , till he come to the pages , where confirmation is considered in the book ; nor yet barely to acknowledg my allowance of it under my hand ; but after my humble thanks heartily tendered to our worthy author , for his excellent paines , in so seasonable a subject , i do also presume earnestly to beseech my reverend bretheren , that what mr. baxter hath so smartly pressed upon the ministry about it , may be speedily and seriously considered , and undertaken by us . and many pages after he addes 7. yea , though after all due paines and endeavoures used , we should not be able to reconcile our principles in every point , yet if we can m●et in the same practice about confi●mation , though on some smal differing grounds , why may not the church be happily ed●fied , and the peace thereof in a measure obtained , by such an v●ity , vniformity in practice , white the persons diff●ring but in lighter matters , may waite upon the lord in this good service , for the gre●t blessing of vnanimity , promised also ? object . but he addeth the proviso , that co●firmation be not thought to have any ingrediency into the nature or being of our membership : and that the temper of the people be found such , as will admit of such a change . answ . we shall easily grant , that confirmation , as it is a solemn reception of the person by imposition of hands , or without imposition in a purposed solemnity , commonly known by that name , is not of necessity to the being of our membership : and that all those that are received upon profession of faith may be church-members ; and that the ordinary use of christian assemblies , and exercises of worship , is a profession , though obscure ; and that a baptized person that never was called to a verball profession , may be taken for a christian , or church-member , upon such a practical sort of profession , joyned with a not denying of christ in word or life . but yet we are far from thinking that the infant-title-condition of such a one , serveth to prove his present church-state and title , now he is at capable age . the infant-title ceaseth , if he continue it not by a personal profession at age . and as there is no middle betweene believers and unbelievers , so there is no such thing in a capable subject , as non-dissenting , in a moral sense , but true consenting . it is not possible for the soul to be neuter , when the thing is offered to our consent , but we must either will or nill , consent or dissent ; though if it were , yet not willing , or not consenting , is infidelity and rebellion in such a subject . and accordingly we maintaine , and must maintaine that profession of some sort or other is a necessary condition of the title and church-state of the capable adult , and of right to the priviledges : and as an obscure kind of profession may serve ( when a man is called to no more ) to prove his right , so a clearer sort of profession is necessary to the clearer proof , and ad bene esse ecclesiae . and i have shewed what great and weighty reasons we have , to require an open , cleare , intelligible profession : and he that is justly called to for such , giveth cause to the church to question him of apostacy , if he refuse without cause . so that of the three conditions in question , the first ( which is our infant-condition ) is utterly insufficient to the capable adult : and the second ( which is an obscure signification of our mind , by our christian practises ) may serve ad esse , at least when no more is required : and the third ( which is an open approved profession by word or subscription ) is necessary ordinarily ad bene esse . thus farre we are agred : but what if we were not ? must we therefore refuse to agree in the practice of the aforesaid confirmation ? will any good and peaceable man refuse to joyne with those that think it necessary to adult church-membership ? if this opinion ( of the said non-necessity ) had been an article of faith , and among the necess●ry credenda of the church , we should have had it in some creed , or heard more of the necessity of it then we have done , from the ancient churches . if we meet about the agenda in our practice , let men take head how they divide from such as differ in the reasons of their practice , till they can prove that they deny some article of the faith , which is of necessity to be believed . and as for the peoples unfitness , or any disturbance that will follow thereupon : 1. if there be such a thing , it will be much long of the ministers : let them unanimously agree , and they may do well enough with the people , or much the better . but when ministers themselves are the bellows of faction , and think they can never sufficiently vilifie dissenters , and so have themselves taught the people to take such a practice for a prelaticall foppery , or formality , or for an independent rigidity and extreamity ; no wonder , if when they come to practice their duty , they meet with such reproaches from the people , as they have taught them . 2. but suppose that people would disturb us , that may in some cases excuse us , as to the mode of confirmation , or profession : but no unfitness of the people can excuse us , as to the substance of the duty ; the requiring and approving their profession . we are false to our trust , and the church of god , if to avoid disturbance , we will confound believers and infidels , and destroy the nature of the church and ordinances , under pretence of the peoples good . object . but it would be your only sure and happy course to exercise discipline upon all that are baptized in their infancy ; whether at age they consent or no : and finding them in the church , you must do so . answ . i have said enough to this before . have they that talk thus , tried this course , or have they not ? if they have not , we will beare with them as well meaning men , that talk of what they never tryed ; as we would do with a confident man , that would condemn the actions of souldiours and seamen , that himself was never in at warres , nor at sea. but if they have tryed it , what kind of discipline do they exercise ? would they make us believe , that they are able in a parish of 4000 , or 5000 , or 6000 souls , to exercise the discipline mentioned in scripture , and the canons of the ancient churches , and that upon such persons , as our parishes commonly consist of ? i know they cannot do it : i have had tryall to tell me what a man can do . with the help of divers ministers , and many hundred godly people , to watch over others , and promote this work , i am not able to do it on all this parish , if i might . there is so many offendours weekely to be dealt with , and so much time required to heare witnesses , and admonish them , that it 's more then i could p●ssibly do . how bishops deale with diocesses , let them see themselves . and if we could do it , yet the people will not consent if you send for them , they will not come neer you : if you admonish them in the congregation by name , they will have an action at law against you , if they can ? however , you will have such a multitude enraged by the exercise of discipline , if it be faithfully ( though never so tenderly done ) that the church will be in a flame , and your m●nistry hated , and the people undone , as i have before declared . so that it is but a name of discipline , to the destruction of discipline , that this objection pleadeth for ; or else it dishonoure●h it self and the authors . and as they do by discipline , so they do by christian charity , which is a greater thing . of old , the visible members of the church were the objects of brotherly christian love : and so as they seemed to them to be believers and penitent persons , the living members did love all the body with that special love , that was the matter of the new commandment , and proved them to be christ's disciples . no man knew the hearts of others , and therefore knew not whom to love as christians infallibly discerned . but the profession of saving faith and holiness , being then ( and ever ) the test of adult-members , they took all the members of the visible church as credibly of the invisible ; though with different degrees of credibility . and accordingly they loved them all , with a christian special love , of the same species , though with different degrees of that love. whereas this popish new found trick , of making a new common sort of faith , and visible membership , that hath no respect to saving faith , doth teach all christians , to love the members of the visible church , but with a common love ; and relieve and help them , but with a common charity . and so the device is to confine our special brotherly love and charity , to a corner of the visible church ; to a few , whom we will please to think to be godly . i have oft marvelled in observing some learned divines , that bend that way , that they think compassion , and christian charity is on their side . what charity can their doctrine glory of ? they will be so mercifull to infidels , that are uncapable of a church-state , as to plead them into the church ; and when they are there , they leave them under the curse , and in a state of damnation in their own judgments ; teaching us to judge uncharitably , of the visible church in general for their sakes ; and to look on them as without respect to any saving grace , and so without any special love. a cold comfort i to bring them into no more capacity of gods mercy , nor of our charity ; but into much more capacity of aggravated damnation : which they might better have prevented by being kept in their proper station , till they were capable of more . i confess ( though my belief of mens profession , have different degrees , as i see in them different degrees of credibility ) yet i have charitabler thoughts of the members of the visible church , then these that make so low and miserable a description of them . and though i know that there are abundance among them , that are hypocrites , and unsanctified , yet know i none but saints and hypocrites , that are tolerable in the church ; nor will i accuse particular persons of hypocrisie , till i have cause . neither in my secret , or open censures , will i pluck up the tares upon any such terms , as will not stand with the safety of the wheate , but rather let them grow together in my esteeme in the church , till the time of harvest . and that i may think charitably of the church , and walk charitably in , and towards it , therefore i would not have it consist of such notorious , ungodly , or heretical men , as are uncapable objects of christian , brotherly love. for heresie , the foresaid learned brother tells us , that it cuts men off from the church . i say so to ( meritoriously at least ) if by heresie be meant the exclusion of any essential article of the christian faith : but pag. 199 , where he saith , the controversie may be easily ended , by parting stakes : viz. that some heresie , which absolutely denyeth some particular fundamental truth , and taketh up some one , or few stones thereof , is consistent with church interest : and other heresie , which raiseth up the very foundation of religion , denying most , or the most chief , if not all of the articles of our christian faith , is inconsistent therewith . i must humbly , but very confidently say , that this answer will not serve the turne . if by fundamentals , be meant ( as commonly ) the essential articles of christian faith , then the absolute denying of any one article , doth prove that person to be no christian , nor capable of a church state : for the form is wanting , where any essential part is wanting . but if any thing else be meant by fundamentals , no man can decide the controvesie by it , till it be known what it is : and it will be hard to fasten it on any thing , where the absolute denyal of many points shall unchurch , and the absolute denial of one or two points of the same rank and kind not do it . saith he p. 198. the jews held that an heretical isralite , had no communion with the church of israel : and why ? but because communion supposeth union ; and union with israel , or the true church , is lost with faith : they also held , ( as selden noteth ) that an israelite turning an heretike i. e. denying any of the thirteene fundamental articles , to be as an heathen man. and a few lines before , he saith , that historical faith , which hath the doctrine of faith for its object , none do doubt to be an essential , requisite to a true church-member . yet that with me is a visible member , that hath not this much , which is said to be essential , no man doubting of it . if they profess true faith , though they are stark atheists at the heart , and have not so much as historical faith , i shall believe them , till they nullifie their own profession : but if they profess not also to consent to have christ to be their saviour , i shall not take it for a profession of christianity . certain i am , that the ancient doctours with one consent , did look on the baptized generally as pardoned , justified , and adopted ; and therefore thought that visible church-membership , did imply a credibility ( at least ) of a state of saving grace . saith cyprian , epist . 76. magn. in baptismo unicuique peccata sua remittuntur . and upon this supposition run the arguments of the councell of carthage , and firmilian , epist . ibid. saith augustine , de catechizandis rudibus , cap. 26. his dictis interrogandus est , an haec credat , atque observare desideret ? quod cum responderit , solemniter utique signandus est , & ecclesiae more tractandus . obedience it self was promised , and a consent to it professed before baptism then , and ever since christian baptism was known . idem epistol . 119. ad januar. cap. 2. secundum hanc fidem & spem & dilectionem , quâ caepimus esse sub gratia , jam commortui sumus cum christo , & consepulti per baptismum in morte , &c. baptism then supposeth credibly faith , hope and love. idem epist . 23. having shewed why parents faith profiteth infants , and yet their after-sins hurt them not , saith cum autem homo sapere caeperit , non illud sacramentum repetit , sed intelligit : ejusque veritati consonâ etiam voluntate coaptabitur . hoc quamdiu non potest ( n. b. ) valebit sacramentum ad ejus tutelam adversus contrarias potestates : & tantum valebit , utsi ante rationis usum ex hac vita emigraverit , per ipsum sacramentum ecclesiae charitate ab illa condemnatione , quae per unum hominem intravit in mundum , christiano adjutorio liberetur . hoc qui non credit , & fieri non posse arbitratur , profecto infidelis est , etsi habeat fidei sacramentum , longeque melior est ille parvulus , qui etiamsi fidem nondum habeat in cogitatione , non ei tamen obicem contrariae cogitationis opponit , undè sacramentum ejus salubriter percipit . and saith the synod of dort. artic. 1. 8. 17. quandoquidem de voluntate dei ex verbo ipsius nobis est judicandum , quod testatur liberos fidelium , esse sanctos , non quidem natura , sed benefici● faederis gratuiti , in quo illi cum parentibus comprehenduntur , pij parentes de electione & salute suorum liberorum , quos deus in infantia ex hac vita evocat , dubitare non debe●t . and if there be such certainty of the election and salvation of all such infants of the godly , as ought to exclude all doubting , surely the visible church-state of the adult also , hath some respect to saving grace , so farre as that its credible fide humanâ that such have saving faith. and saith mr fullwood , append. p. 6. i conceive that such an ones personall profession in his generall ow●ing the true faith , and usuall attending gods publick worship , doth superadde a kinde of new right , and mingle it with such a persons former right , had by his birth priviledge . and if the [ new right ] be not a necessary right , i think it will prove no right . i will contend with no man whether the approved profession which i have pleaded for in this book , be the very same thing with the ancients confirmation . i have given you my thoughts of it , and i am sure the thing in question is our duty , and the name not unfit , and that its the same with the confirmation owned by the divines of the reformed churches , and particularly with that established and recommended in the book of common-prayer , here in england , for the substance . i shall conclude with this serious request to my brethren , seconded with weighty reasons . even that they would take heed of both extreams in their judging of church-members , and managing the discipline and ordinances of christ . 1. should we be so loose as to cast out discipline , or settle the churches either with such materials for quality , or quantity , as that it shall be uncapable of discipline , we shall never be able to answer it to christ . and should we make a new qualification of adult church-members , even their infant-title-condition alone , or the profession of a faith that is not saving , we should come too neere the making of a new baptism , and church . and truly if we do but slubber over the business , and to avoid offence or trouble to our selves , should take up with a profession utterly incredible , especially in these times when we have so much liberty and countenance from the magistrate , for a fuller reformation , we shall be guilty of so much injury to the church , and the christian name , and our people souls ; as is little considered by many that have their eye only on the contrary extreame , as if there were no danger but on one side . 2. on the other side , if we go so rigidly and unrighteously to work , as some men are bent to do , we may accomplish those ends , that we are endeavouring to overthrow , and frustrate our own , which we think to attain . if we will reject the scripture-ancient-character or evidence of title to church-priviledges , even a credible profession of christianity , we shall confound our selves , and trouble the church , and be at a losse for a certain evidence , and never know what ground to rest upon . and we shall injure the souls of multitudes of true believers , and keep out those , that christ will entertain . for there are no other terms , besides taking mens profession by a humane faith , on which we can admit persons , without excluding multitudes , that should not be excluded . i doubt many ministers , that have had a more ingenuous education themselves , are not sufficiently sensible of the great disadvantage , that countrey people are under , by their want of such education . many that are bred where holy discourse is strange , and never were used to any thing of that nature , no nor to common urbanity of speech , or behaviour , may be brought to hearty sorrow for sinne , and desires after christ and grace , long before they can expresse their knowledg , or desires , in any such manner , as some men do expect . many gracious souls ( as farre as i can discerne ) i have met with , that never were noted for any thing extraordinary in religion , though they lived among such . i had rather let in many , that are unregenerate , into the church , then keep out one that 's a true believer , if there be no other remedy . the lord jesus that died for them , and sent the ministery for them , and will at last admit them into heaven , will give us little thanks , for excluding his weakest members from the church , and from the use of the sacrament and communion of saints , who have most need of them , of any that have right to them . for my part , i desire not , nor dare be guilty of that way of government in the church , as shall grieve those that christ would not have grieved , and exclude the weak , and turne or keep out the infants in grace , from the family of the lord. a compassionate minister is likest to christ , that will not break the bruised reed . how dealt he with the woman taken in adultery ? how tenderly excuseth he the sluggishnesse of his disciples , that could not watch and pray with him one houre , in his last extreamity , with the spirit is willing , but the flesh is weak ? when many now that think well of themselves would almost excommunicate men for as small a fault ; we know not in such cases , what spirit we are of . but this is not all : i must confesse brethren ( which i beseech you patiently to hear ) these three things very much stick upon my thoughts . 1. i cannot but observe , how many eminent professors of piety have miscarried , and grievously miscarried of late , when some of lower professions have stood fast . and i think god suffers the falls of many of his own , to let them know the frailty of our natures , and cause them to be compassionate to others . and some censorious mens hearts might smite them , if they had heard from their master , let him that is faultless , cast the first stone . 2. and it sticks very much upon my thoughts , how small a handfull the censorious way would reduce the catholike church of christ to . when it is but about the sixth part of the world that are at all baptized christians ; and scarce the sixth part of them , that are protestants ; and of the protestants , so few , except in england , that are so qualified for holiness , as in your admissions you exspect : and in england how small is the number that you would admit , i am deeply afraid lest you hainously injure the cause of christ , by your excessive rigor : and lest confining even the visible church into so exceeding small a compass , should tempt men to infidelity . for he that to day can believe , that christ died not for one of a hundred thousand in the world , may to morrow believe , that he died for none at all . i hope the little flock of the elect , is not so little , as some would have the visible church of the called . 3. we are deeply sensible of the increase of infidels here in england . they are too thick about us , under severall garbs , especially under the maske of seekers ; and are perswading people against the christian faith , and truth of scripture , and the life to come : and so much do these apostates now abound , that we have reason to be jealous of them . and if any of you should strike in with good men , that are of this censorious over rigorous way , consider how farre they may make use of such to accomplish their designs . if by you they can get almost all the world un-churched in estimation ; and fifty for one , if not an hundred for one in england , actually un-christened , and their children after them left unbaptized : what will follow ? i doubt this , if god should not save us from your miscarriages , when there is but one of an hundred in all the land , that is a christian , the rest will want neither malice , nor power , to put an end here to the christian name ; or at least to the liberty and glory of christianity . they may choose our parliaments for us , and in a word , do with us what they list , when they are exasperated to the greatest hatred of us ; and cut off our liberties , and set up infidelity or heathenism by a law. i trust god will never suffer this : but let us take ●eed of gratifying infidels , and casting all our safety upon miracles , lest we be found to be but foolish builders , and tempters of god : still you may find that over-doing is the most effectuall undoing . and if you would find out the most dangerous enemies of the gospell , look for them among those , that seem over zealous against the enemies of the gospell , and seem to over-doe in the work of the gospell , i desire to bring no party● of godly men into suspicion , or odium by this : but indeed i desire to counter-mine the apostates ; and it would be the most amazing consounding thing , that could befall us in this world , if we should see the church of god betraied into the hands of infidels , and the gospell lost , by the indiscreet and inconsiderate over-doing of those well-meaning men , that did the work of infidels , and ungodly men for them , while they thought that none were so much against them . if the neck of religion be broken among us , i am afraid the imprudent will be some cause , that would lead us above the top of the ladder . sure i am between you both , you have the easiest way to the flesh , that run into extreams . durst i cast off discipline , and only preach , and please all the parish in sacraments and other ordinances , how easie a life should i have to the flesh ? and if i durst take out one of a hundred , that are eminent in piety , that will scarce ever call me to any penall acts of discipline , i should have a much more easie life then the former . but they are both so easie , that i the more suspect them , to be the fruit of the wisdome of the flesh . indeed , both the extreames do cast off discipline , for the most part , whatever they pretend . one sort never meane to exercise it : and the other sort extoll it ; and when they have done , they separate a few of the best that are like to have no need of the troublesome part of it , and so sit down without the exercise of it ; pretending to be physicians , but refusing to receive the sick into their hospitals . brethren , i speake not as an accuser , but a monitour , and shall continue to pray for the churches purity and peace , while i am r. b. july , 30. 1658. dr h. hammond , in his view of the-direct . § . 41. p. 45 , 46. for confirmation , which being so long and so scandalously neglected in this kingdome ( though the rule have also been severe , and carefull in requiring it ) will now not so easily be digested , having those vulgar prejudices against it ; yet must i most solemny profess my opinion of it ; that it is a most ancient christian custome , tending very much to edification : which i shall make good by giving you this view of the manner of it . it is this ; that every rector of any parish , or curate of charge , should by a familiar way of chatechizing , instruct the youth of both sexes within his cure , in the principles of religion , so farre that every one of them before the usuall time of coming to the lords-supper , should be able to understand the particulars of that vow , made in baptism , for the credenda and facienda ; yea and fugienda also : what must be believed , what done , and what forsaken ; and be able to give an intelligent account of every one of these : which being done , every such childe so prepared , ought to be brought to the b p for confirmation . wherein the intent is , that every such child , attain'd to years of understanding , shall singly and solemnly before god , the b p , and the whole congregation , with his own consent , take upon himself the obligation to that , which his god-fathers and god-mothers in baptism , promised in his name ; and before all those reverend witnesses , make a firm , publick , renued promise , that by gods help he will faithfully endeavour , to discharge that obligation in every point of it , and persevere in it all the dayes of his life . which resolution and promise so heightned with all those solemnities , will in any reason have a mighty impression on the child , and an influence on his actions for ever after . and this being thus performed by him , the b p shall severally impose his hands on every such child ( a ceremony used to this purpose by christ himself ) and bless and pray for him , that now , that the temptations of sinne begin more strongly in respect of his age , to assault him , he may receive grace and strength against all such temptations or assaults , by way of prevention and speciall assistance ; without which , obtained by prayer from god , he will never be able to do it . this is the sum of confirmation ; and were it rightly observed ( and no man admitted to the lords-table , that had not thus taken the baptisme-bond from the sureties into his own name ; and no man after that , suffered to continue in the church , which brake it wilfully ; but turned out of those sacred courts by the power of the keys in excommunication ) it would certainly prove by the blessing of god , were it begun , a most effectuall meanes to keep men ( at least within some terms of christian civility , ( from fallings into open enormious sinnes ; and that the defaming and casting out of this so blamelesse gainfull order , would be necessary or usefull to any policy , save only to defend the devill from so great a blow , and to sustaine and uphold his kingdome , i never had yet any temptation or motive to suspect or imagine . instead of considering any objections of the adversary against this piece , whether of apostolicall or ecclesiasticall discipline ( which i never heard with any colour produced ) i shall rather express my most passionate wish unto my friends , those who sincerely wish the good of this nationall church , that they will endeavour their uttermost to revive these meanes of regaining of purity and exemplary lives of all its members , when god by restoring our peace shall open a doore for it . finis . errata . contents , p. 13. l. 9. r. [ overmuch rigour . ] p. 7. l. 8. for [ yet ] r. [ that . ] p. 12. l. 23. r. [ its stead . ] p. 19. l. 24. r. [ he that . ] p. 24. l. 22. for [ before ] r. [ because . ] p. 27. l. 5. r. [ learners . ] p. 34. l. 13. r. [ baptismall . ] p. 35. l. 25 , & 26. for [ seem ] r. [ serve . ] p. 36 l. 4. for [ their ] r. [ the. ] p. 37. marg. l. 13. r. [ nullo . ] p. 47. l. 11. r. [ ●dem . ] p. 49. l. 8. r. [ that it is . ] l. 25. for [ grounded ] r. [ granted . ] p. 55. l. 20. r. [ heb. 13. 7. 17. 24. p. 58. l. 28. r. [ pastours . ] p. 64 l. ult . r. [ and duty . ] p. 65. l. 1. for [ judging . ] r. [ guiding ] p. 75. l. 15. for [ termes ] r. [ times , ] p. 73 l. 24. for [ admitted ] r. [ administred . ] p. 75 l. 2. r. [ hanc . ] p. 78. l. 21. r. [ not . ] p. 79. l. 12. for [ them ] r. [ him . ] p. 63. l. 16. r. [ them to . ] p 89. l. 26. for [ pardon ] r. person . ] p. 94. l. 21. r. [ as to the ] p. 96. l. ulr . r. [ prove it . ] p. 105. l. 4. for [ that ] r. [ the. ] p. 111. l. 16. r. [ physicall . ] p. 114. l. 22. for [ that ] r. yet . l p. 119. l. 24. for [ whether ] r. [ where . ] p. 125. l. 27. r. [ prescript● p. 131. l. 27. r. [ persecuturosque jurabant . ] p. 132. l. 7. r. [ jurabant . ] p. 134. l. 15. for [ propriety ] r. [ parity . ] p. 144. l. 27. for [ intruding ] r. [ introducing . ] p. 177. l. 4. for [ or ] r. [ on . ] l. 11. for [ enter ] r. [ eate . ] p 179. marg. l. 26. r. [ partes . ] p. 180. l. 6. for [ any ] r. [ my . ] p. 183. l. 24. r. [ know not . ] p. 198. l. 17 r [ will not . ] p. 199. l. 21. r. [ help or . ] p. 209. l 3. for [ the ] r [ thy . ] l. 25. for [ for ] r. [ of . ] p. 216. l. 8. for [ variety ] r. [ vanity . ] p. 218. l. 6 r. [ difference . ] p. 220. l. 26. r. [ children . ] p. 221. l. 13. for [ admitted ] r. [ administred . ] p. 224. l. 21. r. [ approved . ] p. 241. l. 6. for [ little ] r. [ title . ] p 242. l. 10. for [ our ] r. [ your . ] p. 245. l. 21 r. [ on the. ] l. 24. r. [ ministers . ] p. 252. l. 11. r. [ they are . ] p. 257. l. 22. r. [ whom they . ] p. 262. l. 13. r. [ do it . ] p. 265. l. 16. r. [ answered this . ] p. 267. l. 13. r. [ and the. ] p. 272. l. 11. r. [ all are . ] p. 276. l. 7. r. [ too long ] l. 8. r. [ by the. ] p. 279. l. 13. r. [ in the. ] p 292. l. 22. for enflame ] r. [ enslave . ] p. 293. r. [ in these . ] p. 316. l. ult . r. [ febr. 13. ] postscript , p. 21. l. 23. for [ therefore ] r. [ then . ] p. 22. l. 9. r. [ church-communion . ] p. 30. l. 4. r. [ meane● . ] p. 31. l. 8. r. neglect so ] . p. 42 l. 17. r. [ in the warres ] p. 46. l. 2 r. [ and in the ] notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a76157-e1260 ☜ see the rubrick of the common prayer book before confirmation after cited . g. cassande● consult . de confirm . haejusm●di sa●e institutionem seu catechismi explicationem in pueris fieri debeere , & veteres praecipiunt , & recenciores quoque ex utraque parte consentiunt . vide august . serm. 116. in ramis palmarum , & wallafridum de rebus ecclesiast . cap. 26. & quae scripsit ruardus tappenus lovan . tom. 2. ad illud calvi●i instit . c. 17. albaspin . in tertul. de praescript . c. 43. p. 308. non nisi magna cum deliberatione quenquam in societatem & communionem ecclesiarum venire patiebantur — ait igitur diu multumque orthadoxos deliberare , quorum sententiis subscribere , quosve in societatem ejusdem ecclesiae & corporis recipore debeant : contra vero haereticos ullo discrimine cum omnibus haereticis pacem miscere . vid. thom. à jesu de convers . omn. gentium de hac quest . therefore it is to be made at years of understanding . the papists themselves say in their catechism , composed for the armenians , translated by peter paulus . pag 194. tum recipiendum est sacramentum hoc , quando ad usum rationis pervenit homo , fidemque profiteri incipit , & ut confirmetur , & stabiliatur in gratia opus habet . it s before proved , that men are not here their own judges . anabap. object . answ . de exhomologes . vide albespin . in tertul . de paenit . c. 10. pag. 297. & observ . passim . grotius epist . 154. p. 377 , 378. mihi legenda compertum est manuum impositionem caeremeniam fuisse juda●cam , usurpatam , non lege ullâ divinâ , sed moribus , ubicunque precandi pro aliquo causa quaedam emerserat . tunc enim judaei orabant ut sic dei efficacia esset super illum , sicut manus , efficaciae symbolum , ei imponebantur . hunc quemque morem ut synagogae pleraque secutus est christus , sive pueris benedicendum fuit , sive aegrotis adhibenda sanatio addita , ut semper honos patri haberetur , prece . eodem more non ex ullo praecepto , est quod apostoli manus imposuere iis , quibus ignoto ante hac jure dona conspicua sancti spiritus precando conferebant : quod presbyteri eundem ritum adhibuere non tantum in allegendis presbiteris , puta timotheo , 1 tim. 4. 15. sed & ipsis apostolis , ubi novi aliquid opis aggrederentur , act. 13. 2. ita ut si quotiens manus imponitur toties sacramentum est , jam nulla futura sit ad precandum pro aliquo occasio , quae non eo nomine veniat ; quod nec vocis origo , nec veterum in eâ usus repudiat . et ex una hâc non imperata sed usitâ judaeis christianisque caeremonia , exstiterê illa , quae dicuntur sacramenta confirmationis , ordinationis , paenitentiae , extremae unctionis immo & matrimonii . leg albaspin . observat . 31. lib. 2. p. 166 , 167 , 168. ☜ * as some doubt whether conversion , or building up be the greater work ( and give it to the later , that they may conclude the la●er only to be the work of pastours , and the former , but of gifted private men ( so the doubt in this case , is on the same ground , whether baptizing and confirming , be not as great as ordaining , ( and some give i● to the later , le●t ●resbyters be thought to have power to ordain . ) but i answer both as aquila in scotell . in sent . 4. des . 7. 8. & 2. pag. 816. in the case of confirmation : quando benefit comparatio harum gratiarum : haec potest fieri dupliciter . vno modo sine praecisione ; & sic omnino major est gratia confirmationis , quam baptismalis ; sicut bene & perfecte vivere , est melius quam vivere : si autem fiat comparatio harum gratiarum cum praecisione , sic major est gratia baptismalis quam confirmationis , quia majoris virtutis est mortuum vivificare , quam vivificatum fortificare . so i say between initiating a christian , and initiating a minister . greg. m. in epist . ad quirin . ( leg. inter usserii hybernie . epist . 2. p. 6. ) et quidem ab antiqua patrum institutione didicimus , ut qui apud haeresin in trinitatis nomine baptizantur , cum ad sanctam ecclesiam redeunt , aut unctione chrismatis , aut impositione manuum , aut solâ professione fidei , ad sinum matris ecclesiae revocentur . the ancient church also used it so variously , as that it is plain , they fixed it to no one case alone . of the divers cases , in which they imposed hands ( on the catechumens , and foure times on the penitents , and divers other , ) you may see in albaspinaeus observationes , obs . 31 , 32. & passim . grotius epist . 154. p. 379. manus impositas ▪ baptizatis , nisi ab iis , qui jus haberent conferendi caelestia illa dona , primis temporibus non apparet . serius id introductum est in episcoporum honorem , quo magis in apostolicum jus successisse crederentur . nec causa aberat , quam caeremoniae illi , velut naturalem diximus , praecandi scilicet deum , ut ei qui baptizatus jam fidem erat professus , ea largiri vellet , quae ad praestandum in fide , maximè in periculis gravibus , sunt necessaria . leg. quae habet grotius discus . apol. rivet . p. 235. cum antecedent●h . ex anti● . & de suis . * read the whole order of baptism in dionysius ibid. c. 4. * that is not to turn to an ungodly life , but to endeavour and perform sincere obedience . albaspin . in tertul. de paenintent . cap. 7. sexcent●● locis , non dicam hoc capite ; unam ait tantum a lavacro veniam superesse , neque ullam primis illis temporibus inter privatam aut publicam graviorum criminum discrimen invenient . vide caetera . read dr hammond's pract. catech. l. 5. §. 4. pag. 298 , 299. of the communion of saints . albaspinaeus in tērtul . de paenitent . cap. 8 , 9. pag. 291. cum pro foribus templi starent paenitentes , pretereuntibus sacerdotibus , caeterisque fidelibus omnibus , omnino dolentis animi signis paenitentiam suam testabantur , lacrymis non parcebant , precibus institebant , volvebantur , & si quae alia habet paenitentia , quae miserecordiam movere possint ; non omittebant , ut pacem recupearent . primum ante sacerdotes procumbebant , martyribus deinde adgeniculabantur , caeteris denique fratribus & viduis , ut ait paciamis , enixè supplicabant , ut à deo & ab ecclesiâ veniam pro se impetrarent . ☞ albaspin . ubi sup . animadvertendum est , paenitentes non solum haec & similia egisse , ut cum deo in grati●● redirent , verum etiam ut sacerdotes , & caeteros fratres aequiores haberent , in quorum arbitrio & judicio non-nunquam erat , eos in ecclesia revocare . i cit● this to shew what conisance the people were to have of such affairs . to recite more after all those of blondel , is but to do a needless work . there 's enough to satisfie all that are moderate for popular interest . ☞ * of this fourth sort i hope are many that truly fear god , that some on one pretence , and some on an other , forbear to ioyn with us in the communion of the church , in the lords supper : but yet heare , and live in love and peace with us . and some do joyn with us ( on the grounds as godly strangers may be admitted ) somtime in the lords supper ; that yet expresly own not a membership in the particular church . as i would not have mentioned the faults of any of my parishioners , but on this necessity of opening the state of the nation de facto , so they have no reason to take it ill of me . for 1. i accuse none by name , much less the generality . 2. the innocent do themselves know , and bewail the sinnes that i mention . 3. i am so far from making them worse then other parishes , that i un●eigne●iiy proses , that i do not know a●y other in england of so much godliness , and tractableness ; which testimony is true , and more to their honou● , then the mentioning of the remnants of ignorance and ungodlyness is to their dishonour . if it be thus , here , how much worse is it in most parts of the ●●nd ? i have but very few of these ; but i know neighbour parishes that have too many , to the grief of their godly ministers . this tenth sort , are some of them infected by the infidels ( who are all for hobs his necessity ) but most of them have got it , i know not how : but so many are possessed by these conceits , that i little thought , that neer so many of the ungodly vulgar , had so abused the doctrine of predestination and grace ; as if they had been hired to disgrace it . 12. our papists are but few ; but if the rest of them be such as ours , their church hath small reason to boast of its holiness . beside , if all these were fit to be members , yet we must know their own consent , which meer living in the parish , or comming to church doth not signifie . mr thorndicke , see dr hammond's practic . catech. lib. 2. §. 2. p. 103. & l. 6. §. 2. pag. 311 , 313 , 314 , 319 , 320 , 321 , 322 , 323 , &c. this is no dishonour to the discipline : for we find it hath great effect on such as are capable of it . i desire those that are overridgid and uncharitable in censuring others , not to extend these complaints to more then i extend them : nor to take it as an occasion for the unchurching of whole parishes , or any one particular person , without sufficient evidence . for i must profess that i meet with hundreds in my parish , that i can comfortably hold communion with , that some men of stricter principles , or more censorious dispositions would reject : yea , and i take abundance for truly goldy men , that are not noted for any eminency of religion , perhaps their parties , or callings , or opportunites , being such as keep them much from the knowledg of others . melancthon epist . ( impres . lugdun . 1647. ) ad dominicum schleupnerum , saith . 1. quia in tanta multitudine vix pauci sunt christiani , & apti qui sacramento fruantur , cavendum est ne vulgus invitetur ad prophanandum corpus domini . lege calvin . institut . lib. 4. cap. 12. §. 1 , 2. zanch. de ecclesia . vol. 3. fol. 123 , 124 , 134 , 135. and others cited in the preface of my reformed pastor . the rest of the rubricke see after . the first part of the rubricke anon cited , also proves this . de hoc dissidium nullum futurm sperem , &c. de tempore confirmationis , video bonis viris utriusque partis non displicere , si ejus usus ad aetatem paulio adultiorem differatur , — ut parentibus , susceptoribus , & ecclesiarum prefectis occasio detur , pueros de fide quam in baptismo professi sunt , diligentius instituendi & admonendi . georg. cassander , in consult . de confirmatione . some few also there are , that are antipaedobaptists ( against baptizing infants ) and yet not anabaptists ( as not judging it a nullity , nor to be iterated ) and these , one would think we might live at peace with . leg. grotii , epist . 162. ad bignon : p. 397. clem. roman . against a lower episcopacy , then ours . petav. him self saith , dissert . eccles . lib 1. cap. 3. pag. 35. ignorare non potuit hieronimus quibusdam in locis absente episcopo presbyteros idem illud sacramentum confirmationis dedisse ▪ quod de aegypto testatur commentarius , &c. and p. 36. he saith , constat olim solos episcopos ordinariò jure tam baptismum , quam paenitentium reconciliatione administrasse . so that they may then as well forbid presbyters to baptize . * hier. cont . lucifer . ad honorem potius sacerdotii , quam ad legis necessitatem . alioqui si ad eposcopi tantum imprecationem sp. sanctus de●luit , lugendi sunt , qui in vinculis aut castellis aut in remotioribus locis , per presbyteros & diacones baptizati , ante dormierunt , quam ab episcopis inviserentur . clem. alexand. pedag●g . 3. cui imponet presbyter manus . ambros . in eph. 4. apud aegyptum presbyteri consignant , si prae●en ; non sit episcopus . grotius epist . cordes . 154. pag. 382. si recte expendantur quae ipse aurelius , de rebus nec 〈◊〉 , nec prohibitis disserit , non mirum si in iis alibi atque alio tempore alii fuerint mores ; non erat cause satis , curtantis animis , tam odiosis illationibus sta quaestio tractaretur . nam etiamsi aut baptizatus nunquam ungeretur , aut ungeretur tantum baptismi tempore , baptizante etiam presbytero . adde etiamsi nulla subsequeretur manuum imp sitio , donis illis quae per manuum impositionem conferebant apostoli pridem ressantibus , non ideo periret honor praesidentiae ●piscopalis , quae tunc etiam in ecclesia fuit cum episcopi & presbyteri nomen indiscriminatim usurparetur , & cum praeji●entia illa , non electione , quae alexandris primum fieri 〈◊〉 , macco mortu● , sed participati consensus gradu deferretur . ☜ vid. chamier . l. 4. de sacra . cap. 10 , & 11. in tertullians daies , saith albaspinaeus in tert. de prescrip . c. 41. p. 306. the catechumeni being somewhat instructed at home , cum caeteris tandem in ecclesia primis concionibus , quae in gratiam catechumenorum habebantur , intererant ; quibus peractis rursus omnes iidem ipsi catechumeni ex templo discedere jubebantur , ne scilicet divina mysteria rudium conscientia polluerentur — so that it seemes they had then in the morning a sermon fitted for the catechumens , and all the after part of the worship was more eucharistical fitted to the communion of saints . in the ancient church the catechumeni were not suffered to sit with the church-members , but had a separated place by themselves ; and tertullian accuseth the hereticks for breaking this order , ut vid. albaspin . in tertul. de praescription . c. 41. p. 306. he blames them also that they suffered them to joyne with the church in praiers , and other holy worship ut albaspin . ibid. * in his deus , natura gratia : where abundance more are cited of his side . i humbly propound it to the consideration of the soveraigne rulers , whether it be not fit , that the testimonies of these two sorts of men , in any weighty case , against another be invalidate . and is it not a pittifull case that the lives of the godly people whom they hate , shall be at the mercy of any two of these wretches , that make no more of an oath then of another word . notes for div a76157-e21470 nunquam enim , ait lutherus periclitatur ecclesia nisi inter reverendissin●s . it is totall ignorance that the objection extendeth to , or ignorance of the christian faith. should a man never thinke of god , christ ▪ or heaven , and so never have actuall dissent , he were yet an atheist and infidell : much more when he heareth , and therefore must needs think of them : for then it is impossible , the will should neither dissent nor consent . faith is a positive being , and therefore must have a positive discovery : perhaps many a janizary never renounced christ in words , nor many another ch●lde of christians , that is carried away , where they never heard of christ . i would fully answer such kind of writings , but that judicious readers are awery of such contending , & think it not worth the readers time , or mine . i am sensible also how the arguments for both extreams do either drive or draw the reader to the anabaptists . the most experienced holy of my flock are very tender of the scandalous themselves , and would not have me to cast them out while there appeareth any present hope : remembring the condition that once they were themselves in , and their failings after convictions , and what had become of them if then they had been cast out .