a defence of the duke of buckingham, against the answer to his book, and the reply to his letter by the author of the late considerations. penn, william, 1644-1718. 1685 approx. 7 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-12 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a69913 wing d816a estc r856 12952581 ocm 12952581 95998 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a69913) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 95998) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 735:10 or 1255:16) a defence of the duke of buckingham, against the answer to his book, and the reply to his letter by the author of the late considerations. penn, william, 1644-1718. 8 p. printed for w.c., london : 1685. caption title. imprint from colophon. attributed to william penn. cf. nuc pre-1956 v. 448, p. 405. this item appears at reels 735:10 and 1255:16. reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng buckingham, george villiers, -duke of, 1628-1687. -short discourse upon the reasonableness of men's having a religion. short answer to his grace the d. of buckingham's paper. toleration. 2005-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-08 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-09 jonathan blaney sampled and proofread 2005-09 jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a defence of the duke of buckingham , against the answer to his book , and the reply to his letter . by the author of the late considerations . i remember at the time when chancellor hyde was at his heigth at court , a poor woman who got her living by a piece of ground which her old husband used to digg , carrying her garden-stuff one day to market , and not selling it , comes home exclaiming , that she could not sell her beans and cabbages ; and should never have any good market any more , so long as that filthy hyde was chancellor . i know not the author ( whosoever he be ) of the discourse which came out for an answer to his grace the duke of 〈…〉 ; but the argumentation of the gentleman has really , as to the main point of his answer to the design of that generous duke ( when the rest is impertinence ) the force only ( and prejudice ) of what was said by this woman . there are some in the nation that have been , and that are for liberty of conscience ; some that have been , and that are of the wisest of the nation ( such as my lord bacon , and my lord chief justice hales ) who have shewn their minds still against the stiffness of these church-men , who never would be got , when time was , to condescend in lesser things for the sake of greater . and there comes this gentleman now , and he argues , that therefore all the plots , all the rebellions , all the evils that have befallen the kingdom , must be imputed to such men , and such principles . the argument really is the reasoning of this woman : socrate ambulante fulguravit . socrates going abroad , it lightened ; this lightning did a great deal of hurt ; therefore socrates must be sent to newgate : therefore liberty of conscience must be put to death . i deny the argument . these fanaticks ( say these disputers ) are unquiet ; therefore they must be prosecuted . i say , no ; but therefore give them liberty of conscience , and they will be unquiet no more . a carrier had two horses , one of them being galled through the negligence of his man , the man unknown to his master gets the saddle fitted to his back , and all is well : one day a new hostler , perceiving nothing , puts on the false saddle ; the horse going out , winches , and casts off his pack . the master being enraged , falls a beating the horse ; but the man that understood the matter , does but change only the saddles , and both the horses go quietly along . i will appeal to any man of sense , though of never so little reason , whether ease , happiness , and plenty are likeliest to make people turbulent , or oppression ? take off the thing that pinches , take off prosecution , do but change the saddles , and set them both aright , and see then whether the church-men or the fanaticks , and catholicks will be most governable . let this king give that liberty which his predecessors refused , and you shall see whether this king will not be beloved above all that went before him. i pray go over to holland , go any where else , where liberty is granted , and see , if people rebel in such places . i am ashamed , that men should have need of spectacles to see the sun ! there are some , i know , upon the duke of buckingham's sending out these papers , have aspersed him for another shaftsbury , as if he would make himself head of the fanaticks : there are others apt to cry out , he is undermining the protestant religion , and designs popery : but as i know that my own self do design nothing but the publick benefit , so do i judge of his graces undertaking : that is , as the undertaking of a person over whom a great reason , and the love of his countrey does predominate , with indifferency to the church-men , the fanaticks , and also those of the romish perswasion . the truth is , the attempt of the duke at this time for liberty of conscience , looks to me to proceed from such a spirit as the enterprizes of dion , epaminondas , timoleon , and such like , who were liberators of their countrey : in comparison of whom , the conquests of caesar , alexander , and pyrrbus , who sought themselves and their own greatness , were but spoil and latrociny . the papers writ against him , the duke himself hath thought fit to take notice of in a letter , which letter having one thing in it that is enough to make him print it , [ to wit , the explanation of the kings promise ] the rest of it i count comes to this signification , that the author is by no means to be made his grace's match , but to be left to others : unto whom also , one of them being come out already , i 'le leave him . neither , indeed , is the field here proper for his grace to descend into ; it being the parliament house only , which is the fit place ; where this cause is to be fought , where he will meet with his equals , and where we shall know who shall carry it . as for the replyer to the dukes letter , who insists only upon the same thing , which the answerer does , the distractions , miseries , regicide , in the late times , and therefore the government must fence against them by denial of toleration , i must add ( this being nothing still but the fallacy non causae pro causa before ) that , as the answer is not worthy the pains of the duke , so the reply does require no body's . although indeed , in the paper of considerations moving to a toleration , come out since both , there is one little parenthesis , viz. [ stated rightly , that is , of all , so far as they are tolerable , whereof the wisdom of a parliament is the fittest judge ] does preoccupate all objections , and stops the throat of this flap-mouth argument . entred according to order . london , printed for w. c. 1685. fifty questions propounded to the assembly, to answer by the scriptures: whether corporall pnnishments [sic] may be inflicted upon such as hold different opinions in religion. by s.r. richardson, samuel, fl. 1643-1658. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a91792 of text r201507 in the english short title catalog (thomason e388_11). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 19 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a91792 wing r1407 thomason e388_11 estc r201507 99862008 99862008 114155 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a91792) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 114155) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 62:e388[11]) fifty questions propounded to the assembly, to answer by the scriptures: whether corporall pnnishments [sic] may be inflicted upon such as hold different opinions in religion. by s.r. richardson, samuel, fl. 1643-1658. [8] p. [s.n], london, : printed, 1647. s.r. = samuel richardson. signatures: a⁴. annotation on thomason copy: "may 20th". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng westminster assembly (1643-1652) -early works to 1800. toleration -early works to 1800. persecution -early works to 1800. a91792 r201507 (thomason e388_11). civilwar no fifty questions propounded to the assembly, to answer by the scriptures:: whether corporall pnnishments [sic] may be inflicted upon such as richardson, samuel 1647 3481 4 0 0 0 0 0 11 c the rate of 11 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-05 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-06 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2007-06 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion fifty questions propounded to the assembly , to answer by the scriptures : whether corporall punishments may be inflicted upon such as hold different opinions in religion . yee are bought with a price , be not the servants of men . 1 cor. 7. 23. yee suffer fools gladly , 2 cor. 11. 19. and yet i may not be suffered . by s. r. london , printed , 1647. fifty questions , &c. whether corporall punishments can open blinde eyes , and give light to darke understandings ? 2 whether carnall punishments can produce any more then a carnall repentance and obedience ? 3 whether the destroying of mens bodies for errours , be not a means to prevent their conversion , seeing some are not called untill the eleventh houre : and if they should be cut off for their errours the seventh houre , how should they have come in ? mat. 20. 6. 4 whether those who would force other mens consciences , be willing to have their own forced ? 5 whether it be wisdome and safe to make such sole judges in matters of religion , who are not infallible , but as lyable to erre as others ? 6 if a father or magistrate have not power to force a virgin to marry one shee cannot love ; whether they have power to force one where they cannot believe , against the light and checks of their own consciences ? 7 whether the scripture makes the magistrate judge of our faith ? 8 if the magistrate may determine what is truth ; whether we must not beleeve and live by the magistrates faith , and change our religion at their pleasures ? and if nothing must be preached , nor no books of religion printed , nor be allowed to passe , unlesse certain men may please to approve and give their allowance thereto , under their hands , whether such doe not by this practice , tell god , that unlesse he will reveale his truth first to them , they will not suffer it to be published , and so not known to be ( even with him ) notwithstanding the magistrate may and ought to hinder the printing and publishing of that which shall be against the safety and welfare of the state . but we must distinguish between matters civill and religious : we question their power in the latter . also , whether the licenser setting his hand to the booke to licence it ( he being a priest by his ordination , and from the pope ) be not the marke of the beast spoken of , revel. 13. 17. and whether all such as have gone to them to licence the truth ought not to repent of it , and do so no more ? also whether these men be fit to be licencers of the truth , who when the truth hath been tendred them to be licenced , they have confessed the truth of it , as they have been free to licence it ; but refused , because they durst not ? and whether it can be made appear , that god hath revealed his truth first to these ministers of england , and so the first spreaders of it ? instance , who opposed the prelates , the ministers or the people , first ? and so of the rest . 9 whether it be not the command of christ , that the tares ( those that walke in lies ) and the wheat ( those that walke in the truth , should be let alone , and the blinde ( led in a false religion ) which are offended at the declaration of the truth should be let alone mat. 13. 30 , 38. mat. 15. 14. 10 whether he was not reproved that would have fire from heaven to devoure those that reject christ , luk. 9. 54 , 55. 11 whether the servants of the lord are not forbidden to strive , but to ▪ be gentle towards all ? 2 tim. 4. 2. 12 whether the saints weapons against errours , be carnall or no : 2 cor. 10. 4. 13 whether it was not christs command , that his disciples when they were persecuted , they should pray , and if cursed , blesse ? 14 whether the scriptures declare , that the saints should persecute others , and whether the gentle lambs of christ can serve the wolves so , seeing he sent his as sheep among wolves , and not as wolves among sheep , to kill and imprison , matth. 10. 16. 15 whether christ hath sayd , he will have an unwilling people compelled to serve him ? 16 whether ever god did plant his church by violence and blood-shed ? 17 whether tares may not become wheat , and the blinde see , and those that now oppose and resist christ , afterwards receive him : and he that is now in the devils snare , may get out and come to repentance : and such as are idolaters , as the corinthians were , may become true worshippeers , as they that are strangers may become gods people ? 18 whether to convert an heretick , and to cast out unclean spirits , be done any other way then by the finger of god , by the mighty power of the spirit in the word ? 19 whether he that is not conformable to christ , may not at the same time be a good subject to the state , and as profitable to it as any ? 20 whether men that differ in religion , may not be tollerated , seeing abraham abode among the canaanites a long time , yet contrary to them in religion , gen. 13. 7. & 16. 13. and he sojourned in gezer , and king abimelech gave him leave to abide in his land , gen. 20. 21 , 23 , 24. and isaac dwelt in the same land , yet contrary in religion , gen. 31. the people of israel were about 430 years in aegypt , and afterwards in babylon , all which time they differed in religion from the state , exod. 12. 2 chron. 36. christ and his disciples differed from the common religion of the state , acts 19. 20. and when the enemies of the truth raised up any tumults , the wisdom of the magistrate most wisely appeased them , acts 18. 14. & 19. 15. 21 whether it be not better for us , that a patent were granted to monopolize all the comand cloth , and to have it measured out unto us at their price and pleasure , which yet were intollerable ; as for some men to appoint and measure out unto us what and how much wee shall beleeve and practice in matters of religion . 22 whether there be not the same reason that they should be appointed by us what they shall beleeve and practice in religion , as for them to do so to us , seeing we can give as good grounds for what wee beleeve and practice ( as they can do for what they would have ) if not better . 23 whether men heretofore have not in zeal for religion , persecuted the son of god , in stead of the son of perdition ? 24 whether it is not a burden great enough for the magistrate to govern and judge in civill causes , to preserve the subjects rights , peace and safety ? 25 if the magistrate must judge and punish in matters of religion , the magistrate must ever be troubled with such persons and such causes : and if after his conscience be convinced , hee had no such power , or see that it was truth he punished ; what horrours of conscience is he like to possesse ? 26 whether he is fit to appoint punishments , that is not fit to judge ? 27 if the magistrate must punish errours in religion , whether it doth not impose a necessity that the magistrate is to have a certainty of knowledge in all intricate cases ? and whether god calls such to that place , whom he hath not furnished with abilities for that place ? and if a magistrate be in darknesse , and spiritually blind , and dead ; be fit to judge of light , of truth and errour ? and whether such be fit for the place of the magistracy ? then whether it be not a scruple to a tender conscience to submit to such in civill causes , because not appointed to that place by god ? whereas if the magistrates power be onely civill , the doubt is resolved , because such as may be fit for magistrates , and men ought in conscience in civill things to submit unto them . 28 whether there be any scripture that saith , that any mans conscience is to be constrained , and whether the magistrate can reach mens consciences ; and whether he be fit to make a law to conscience , who cannot know when conscience keeps it , and that cannot reward conscience for keeping it , nor punish the conscience for the breaking of it ? 29 whether it be not in vain for us to have bibles in english , if against our souls perswasions from the scriptures , we must beleeve as the church beleeves ? 30 whether the magistrate be not wronged , to give him the title of civill magistrate onely , if his power be spirituall ? 31 whether laws made meerly concerning spirituall things , be not spirituall also ? 32 whether if no civill law be broken , the civill peace be hurt or no ? 33 whether in compulsion for conscience , not only the guilty , but the innocent suffer also ? as if the husband be an heretick , his sufferings may cause the innocent wife and children shall suffer as deeply also ? 34 whether such as are spiritually dead , be capable to be spiritually infected ? 35 whether god will accept of a painted sepulcher , a shadow , a meere complement of obedience , when the heart is dead and rotten , and hates god and all that is good ? god hath no need of hypocrites , much lesse of forced ones : god will have those to worship him , as can worship him in spirit and truth , john 4. 36 whether the scriptures appoint any other punishment to be inflicted upon hereticks , then rejection and excommunication ? tit. 3. 10. 37 whether freedome of conscience would not joyn all sorts of persons to the magistrate , because each shared in the benefit ? 38 whether those states ( as the low countries ) who grant such liberty , doe not live quietly , and flourish in great prosperity ? 39 whether persecution for conscience doe not harden men in their way , and make them cry out of oppression and tyranny ? 40 whether some corporall punishments would not make thousands in england face about to popery as it did in queen maries time . 41 whether laws made concerning religion , have not always catched the most holy men : witnesse daniel , and the three children : the rest will be of what religion you will . 42 whether the saints crave the help of the powers of this world to bring christ to them ; or fear their powers to keep him from them ? 43 if no religion is to be practised , but that which the common-wealth shall approve on : what if they will approve of no religion ? shall men have no religion at all ? 44 whether the saints ought not to continue their assemblies of their worship of god , without , or against the consent of the magistrates ; they being commanded to do so , mat. 28. 18 , 19 , 20. heb. 10. 25. by an angel from god , acts 5. 20. it was the apostles practice ( who were not rebellious not seditious ) acts 4. 18 , 19 , 20 , 23. and 5. 22. 28. 45 whether uniformity in religion , in the state , doe not oppresse millions of souls , and impoverish the saints bodies ? 46 whether gods people have not disputed and taught a religion new worship , contrary to the state they lived in , and spread it in travelling and open places ; as appears , acts 17. 2 , 17. and 18. 48. yet no origancy and impetuousnesse . yea , contrary to publike authority in the nations uniformity , in false worship , dan. 3. the three children ; so the apostle , acts 4. 5. the saints have openly witnessed , that in matters spirituall , jesus was king , acts 17. 7. and for this christ suffered ; as appears by his accusation . iohn 9. 19. jesus of nazareth king of the jews , psal. 2. 6. acts 2. 36. gods people have seemed the disturbers of the civill state , upon the apostles preaching , there followed uprores , and tumults , and uprores , at iconium , at ephesus , at ierusalem , acts 14. 4. acts 19. 29 , 40. acts 21. 30 , 31. 47 whether jesus christ , appointed any materiall prisons for blasphemers of him ? whether notwithstanding the confidence of the truth they have , to which they would force others , whether the bishops , their fathers , &c. have not been as deeply mistaken ; for now they , are found to be antichristian . 48 whether it be not a naturall law for every man that liveth , to worship that which he thinketh is god , and as he thinketh he ought to worship ; and to force otherwise , will be concluded an oppression of those persons so forced . whether it be best for us to put out our eyes , and see by the eyes of others who are as dim-sighted ? in my judgment , your judgement is a lye : will ye compell me to believe a lye ? compell ye a man to be present at a worship which he loaths ? 49 eyther the civill , or the spirituall state must be supream : which of these must judge the other in spirituall matters ? if the magistrate , then hee is above the church , and so the head of the church ; and he hath his power from the people : ( to govern the church ) whether it will not follow , that the people , as a people , have originally as men a power to govern the church , to see her do her duty , to reform and correct her ; and so the spouse of christ , wife of christ must be corrected according to the pleasure of the world , who lye in wickednesse ? 1 iohn 5. what power a church hath over a magistrate , if he● be a member of the church : if members , they may be excommunicated , if so discerning . reason 1 because magistrates must be subject to christ , but christ censures all offendors , 1 cor. 5. 4 , 5. 2 every brother must be subject to christs censure , mat. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. but magistrates are brethren , deut. 17. 5. 3 they may censure all within the church , 1 cor. 5. 1● . 4 the church hath a charge of all the soules of the church , and must give account of it . heb. 13. 17. 5 christs censures are for the good of souls , 1 cor. 5. 6. but magistrates must not be denied any privilege for their souls , else they by being magistrates , should lose a priviledge of christs . 6 in which priviledges , christians are all one , gal. 2. 28. col. 3. 11. sins of magistrates are hatefull and condemned , esay 10. 1. mich. 3. 1. it s a paradox , that a magistrate may be punished by the church , and yet that they are judges of the church . 50 whether every man upon that religion , which in his conscience he is perswaded is true , whether hee doth not upon the truth thereof venter his soul . if that religion the magistrate , be perswaded be true , he owes a three-fold duty . first , approbation , esa. 49. revel. 21. with a tender respect to the truth , and the professours of it . secondly , personall submission of his soul to the power of jesus his government , matth. 18. 1 cor. 5. thirdly , protection of them , and their estates from violence and injury , rom. 13. to a false religion he owes . 1 permission ( for approbation he owes not to what is evill ) as matth. 13 30. for publike peace and quitenesse . 2 protection of the persons of his subjects ( though a false worship ) that no injury be offered to the persons or goods of any , rom. 13. object . the kings of judah compelled men to serve the lord , ergo , kings may now compell , &c. answ . they who lived under the jewish worship only were compelled , strangers were not . secondly , they were not compelled to any thing , but what they knew and confessed was their duty , 2 chron. 6. 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. thirdly , if they did compell , their actions were not morall to obliege other kings to do so . may not the prelates by the same reason alleage the order of the priesthood for their episcopacy , as you for the kingly . fourthly , the kings of israel did not imprison schismaticks , pharises , herodians , &c. fifthly , the kings of israel had extraordinary profits to direct them what to do infallibly ; these kings have none such to direct them . sixthly , if the law be morall ; where is it set down in christs testament ( which is to be our rule ) that the magistrate shall compell all to his religion : for to another he will not . object . then every man may live as he list . answ . had not he as good live as he list ; as live as you list ? object . then it seems errours may be suffered . answ . if truth may be suffered also , it will prevail against errours . it s no more in their power to hinder errours , then it was in the power of the prelates to hinder mens preaching , writing , and speaking against them . if you can hinder satans suggestions , and the vain imaginations of mens hearts , and expell the darknesse in men , and place light in stead thereof ▪ and hinder men from speaking each to other , then you can suppresse errours , else not , the lord only can surprise errours by the mighty power of his spirit with his word , and wee believe hee will certainly do it in his time to his glory , and the comfort of his people , amen . one thing more i desire to know why the priests of england assume to themselves the title of a ( divine ) is it because they are exercised in divine truth , or because they pertake of the divine nature , or both , if so , then many tradesmen may as well have the title of divine given them as well as they , because they pertake of the divine nature , and are as much exercised in matters divine , as the most of them , but it is a question to mee , whether the title divine is to be given to any man , but only to god alone ; whose being , is onely divine . finis . a dialogue between an east-indian brackmanny or heathen-philosopher, and a french gentleman concerning the present affairs of europe tryon, thomas, 1634-1703. 1683 approx. 37 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 13 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2003-07 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a35867 wing d1301 estc r32400 12670072 ocm 12670072 65478 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a35867) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 65478) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1525:21) a dialogue between an east-indian brackmanny or heathen-philosopher, and a french gentleman concerning the present affairs of europe tryon, thomas, 1634-1703. [2], 22 p. printed and sold by andrew sowle ..., london : 1683. attributed to tryon by nuc pre-1956 imprints. reproduction of original in the harvard university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng toleration. religious tolerance. 2003-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-03 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-04 olivia bottum sampled and proofread 2003-04 olivia bottum text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-06 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a dialogue between an east-indian brackmanny or heathen-philosopher , and a french gentleman concerning the present affairs of europe . london : printed and sold by andrew sowle at the crooked-billet in holloway-lane , in shoreditch , 1683. a dialogue between an east-indian brackmanny , or heathen philosopher , and a french gentleman , &c. heathen . sir , i will not be so inquisitive as to ask what accident or occasion brought you into these oriental regions . be it either curiosity , or business , a natural desire of improving your understanding , or intention of commerce , i speak you heartily welcome , and shall to my power be ready to serve you , esteeming it both my duty and my happiness , to do good offices to all the creation , and especially to strangers , as standing many times most in need of them . french-man . worthy sir , your civilities have rescued me from that common error of thinking , that out of europe or the pale of christendom dwells nothing but rudeness and barbarism . i find no less courtesie in this , than in the other hemisphere ; and perceive people may be born at some thousand leagues distance , under different climates , and where the same stars are never seen ; nay , which is more , under various religions and rites of worship , wholly strange to each other , and yet may agree well enough , if they would give their minds to it , in the practice of the common duties of humanity . heathen . there is no doubt of it sir ; for the modes and customs of your country differ just as much from ours as ours do from yours ; and therefore we are not for that variety to scorn or laugh at , much less hate and plague each other ; but rather impartially consider which is most agreeable to nature , to the noble divine principle , and the real benefit of humane life — but waving this discourse , pray what is the present news in europe ? french-man . that question will lead us to the very antipodes of what we were discoursing of ; for nothing is more frequent among us than contentions , controversies and wars . heathen . for what , i pray ? french-man . some for empire , some for glory , but most about religious points , and the nearest way to heaven . heathen . now in my opinion , neither of these things should administer occasion for such violences and confusions . for if men considered the weight and cares of empire , those that are without it would rather fly from than fight for it . and that prince's dominions are wonderous small that cannot imploy all his vertues in meliorating his own subject , rather than in invading , oppressing and ruining those of his neighbours . nor can i understand , that any glory is to be got by destroying men . i think 't is rather matter of praise to beget them . your alexander and your caesar ( for we have heard of their names , and the former spread the venom of his ambition even into these parts ) made some millions fatherless , yet could neither of them boast of one son of his own , but both dyed childless . and then for religion , that methinks should teach you quite the contrary , especially your christian doctrine , which ( i have heard ) enjoyns you to love your enemies , to turn the left cheek to him that smiteth you on the right , &c. french-man . 't is very true , the principles of our religion are such , but the general practice now-a-days runs quite contrary . heathen . and yet practice is the life of any religion : if you do verily believe those principles of christianity to be true , why do you not follow them in your conversations ? if you do not believe them , why do you call your selves christians ? if you do believe them , and yet resolve not to practise them , you are wilful obstinate rebels , and greater affronters of christianity than we that do not make profession of it . can any thing be more absurd than to turn earth into a kind of hell , under pretence of driving men to heaven ? and to commit murders and cruelties for the sake of the god of life and love ? alas , sir ! the infinite deity delighteth not in manslaughter ; strife , war and contention enter not into his tabernacle : above , all is clear , bright , serene , calm and quiet ; 't is in the lower regions of the air only , that storms are generated , and thunder and lightning break forth . god is no respecter of persons , but ( as your own prophets say ) every one that doth well is accepted of him ; he causeth the blessed and glorious body the sun to shine on the just and unjust , and commands the sweet influences of the coelestials to fall upon all : the blessings of the four worlds are equally distributed to all men , as well inferior as superior . he sustains and preserves the universal systeme of nature by the hand of his out-spread providence ; and when the sons of men , by their sinful vanities , oppressions and violences have awakened his wrath , he does not presently dart down the thunder-bolts of his vengeance on their guilty heads , but first sends his brackmannys to tell them of their evil , and call them to repentance . and if man-kind will walk in the right way , and dwell in the everlasting regions of bliss , they must endeavour to imitate their creator , whence our seers call man the image or likeness of god , and the horizon of both worlds , since in him the superiors and inferiors are united . now if people would study to be truly like their maker , violence , war and oppression would have no place in the world. french-man . i perceive you are much for peace and quietness ; yours is a strange religion indeed that will not allow of the noble feats of arms , and the arbitrament of the sword. heathen . for ought i can hear , your religion allows the same as little as mine , and threatens , that whoever uses the sword , shall perish by the sword . french-man . and yet the cause , or at least the pretence of most of our wars is religion ; and 't is by the profession of arms that men amongst us become great and honouroble . heathen . if killing be so honourable , butchers sure with you are a worshipful company . french-man . butchers of beasts are but meanly regarded , but butchers of men are celebrated as the only hero's . heathen . and after what fashion , i pray , do these hero's live ? french-man . for the most part , they are such as love to eat to gluttony , and think that day ill spent wherein they are not drunk ; their discourse is nothing but boasts and rhotomontado's , intermixt with such horrid oathes and blasphemies , that modest men tremble more at their talk , than for fear of the fury of their arms ; where-ever they come they carry ruin and confusion with them , destroying men and debauching women , deflouring of virgins , ravishing of matrons , robbing , plundering , firing of houses , devouring what they can , and destroying the rest is , their profession and delight ; and this they call living at discretion . heathen . if these be the christian hero's , i wonder what are your devils ? i hope these are none of those that you said do contend so much about the right way to heaven . french-man . yes , i 'le assure you , none more ready to kill and damn all that will not be of the religion they pretend to . we have in our country a parcel of people called hereticks and hugenotes , their conversation is generally iust and honest , and they are peaceable and obedient to their king , and as ready to serve him , and do good to their neighbours as any : but they will not joyn with us in our religions , opinions and ceremonies . heathen . as how , i pray ? french-man . why , they will not acknowledge our supream caliph at rome to be infallible : they will not say their prayers to a statue , an image , or a picture , because they fancy those fine things can neither hear them , nor help themselves : they will not own that the bone , or a piece of the garment of a man who is himself many years agone dead and rotten , can cure them of diseases , or preserve them from dangers ; but especially when we give them a piece of bread , and tell them 't is flesh , blood and bones , they think 't is bread still , and are so impudent as to believe their own eyes before the dictates of our priests . heathen . why ! do you your selves believe and practise these absurdities ? french-man . ye marry , and would burn you too , if you were in some parts of christendom , and durst say you did not believe them as well as we . heathen . then i bless the good and infinite beeing , that i have no business in such a christendom . but pray proceed with the story of your hugenotes . french-man . we endeavoured to suppress and root them out by severe laws , and open wars , but finding that course ineffectual , we resolved upon a stratagem to cut them off ; pretended to be very kind to them , and that we desired a perfect reconciliation , and to that purpose made a match between one of the chief of that party and a great lady of ours ; to solemnize this wedding , the principal hugenotes repaired from all parts of the kingdom , and had the greatest assurances given them of friendship . but one night whilst they suspected nothing , souldiers being drawn together , at a certain hour fell upon them in all parts of the city , destroying men , women and children , so that in two or three hours time , there were above ten thousand of their dead bodies flung naked into the streets , and the channels flowed with their heretical blood : and at that time messengers were sent to other cities and towns to do the like , so that in a few dayes there were above forty thousand of them slain . was not this a noble expression of zeal for religion ? heathen . god keep such bloody zeal still from our indian territories . do your priests allow of such doings ? french-man . allow ! yes and applaud them too , they are the men that excite us to these gallant exploits , and for a reward for these services , do forgive us all our sins , and assure us of heaven . heathen . i know not what they may pretend ; but this i know , that god is love , and that such barbarous cruelties are to him an abomination ; and to speak truth , so long as men continue obstinate , revengeful and contentious , and suffer the wild savage nature , and bitter spirit to reign in their hearts , neither men nor god can forgive them ; for inequality and discord cannot move equality : such a spirit is contrary to the divine nature , and therefore cannot expect forgiveness till 't is changed and transformed . for men cannot draw nigh to the fountain of benignity , nor be heard of the soveraign beeing , but as they become like unto him , for every like is moulded by its likeness ; blood requires blood , but the merciful shall find mercy from the god of peace and compassion , whose mercies never fail . for this cause we have for many generations totally abstained from all violence , oppression and killing , either of man or beast ; for the groanings and miseries of those creatures that suffer wrong , are the beginnings of trouble and sorrow to those that do it , and do certainly stir up and awaken the fierce wrath in nature , as the loadstone attracts iron . french-man . these are pretty notions , but methinks impracticable : for if we europeans should live the life you talk of , and lay aside arms , and not vindicate our religion and liberties by the sword , we should be over-run , and be made the greatest of slaves . have not you heard of the inroad made ( at this instant ) by the turks into germany ? now would you have us stand with our arms a cross , and suffer them to over-ran all christendom ? heathen . i pray , what do you account the occasion that moved the turk to this expedition . french-man . why , the emperor of germany in certain of his territories , had some of those hereticks that i described to you but now , and he would force them to be of his religion , and to compell them thereunto , seized on their priests , and clapt them into dungeons and prisons , where they were starved and pined away in want and misery ; and others he sold for slaves , and sent souldiers amongst them to kill and destroy all that would not conform to his ceremonies : hereupon they took arms in their own defence , and observing their brethren to live free from such violences , and enjoy their religion under the turks , paying only such tribute , they desire the turk to protect them , which offends the emperor , and so the quarrel encreasing , the turk sends an army against him . heathen . this confirms and illustrates what i assert ; for here you see this deluge of calamity had not happened to germany , had they not first stirred up the wrath , and caussesly vexed their neighbours . it appears plainly these flames arise from sparks of their own kindling ; besides , experience shews that none are such vassals , and subject to so many miseries as those that give themselves to the use of arms , viz. to guns , swords , and the like weapons of wrath , and most of them perish by the use of them . for our own parts , 't is true we do live in subjection , and under the burthen of many great taxes , which are levied on us at the pleasure of the princes we live under ; but then they protect us from the injuries of the multitude , allowing us our free egress and regress through their dominions , and unquestioned liberty for the exercise of our religion and manner of living : they do not endeavour to peep into our breasts , and examine our opinions , or punish us for not thinking as they do . we go freely about our occasions ; nor do they permit every idle fellow to take away our goods , nor give us abusive words , or hurry us to loathsom prisons ; nor are our sons forced into the wars : they threaten no punishment to us , provided we do not offend the civil laws ; for they matter not what gods we worship , nor after what fashion , so we are just to men , and live peaceably , and pay our tribute . if they have our money , they know they cannot want men that will fight for two pence a day : but we value our health , our lives , liberties and religion , more than money . we all drink water , and the fragrant herbs , wholsom seeds , fruits and grains suffice us abundantly for food : our stomachs are clean , our appetites sharp , so that we taste the inward virtue of each thing , and sing songs of praise to the creator , who affords unto us the plenty of the earth , and the pleasant dews of heaven ; so that as fish live in the salt and brackish ocean , and yet their flesh is fresh and sweet ; so we in the midst of a tempestuous troublesom world live calm , and as it were in paradise . french-man . i am glad to hear you esteem your selves so happy ; there are few mortals that are so content with their lot , but are whining , repining , complaining , and alwayes on the tenter-hooks of new hopes and desires . heathen . and the reason is , because they forsake nature , and let loose their desires , which having once cast off the bridle of moderation , run on without stop or bounds . french-man . but i perceive you are for liberty of conscience , and that every one may follow his own opinion and phantasie ; and if so , we should have a mad world ; such a license is destructive to government , and the very nurse of rebellion . heathen . i do not well understand what you mean by opinion and phantasie , people will think as they list , do you what you can . but this i know , that he that fears god , and hurts not his neighbour , oppresseth not the creation , and obeys the civil laws of that country he lives in , and freely pays all duties and tributes to the princes that protect him , is a good and faithful subject to god and his king. nor have we any temptation to rebellion , for to us all governments are alike , as long as they protect us from violence . i have read something of your europian affairs ; and if i mistake not , in france , spain , &c. where the laws are to force people to be all of a mind , there have been abundance more rebellions , insurrections , plots and conspiracies against the government , than in countries , where liberty of conscience is publickly allowed ; whence i rather infer , that not the indulging , but restraining liberty of conscience is the grand cause of those disorders amongst you . 't is certain , every man ought to have liberty in well-doing , and to be punished only for the contrary . and we baunians scarce know any thing that is a greater evil , than for men to contend , hate , envy , oppress , fight and destroy one another , because they are not in all particulars like themselves : for men naturally are as various in their intellects , as in their shapes , forms and complexions ; for the shape and form of every body is according to the nature , equality or inequality of the spirit . the lord hath made all things to differ ; there is not any two things in the four worlds alike in all particulars ; therefore whosoever is offended with another , because he is not perswaded , or does not understand just as he does , is in truth offended with his maker , who is the author of that variety . if two things were exactly in all respects alike , they must become the same ; the nearest similitude of things is made by casting them in a mould , and yet even then they differ . french-man . you say right , and therefore to make all mens vnderstandings of asize , our church-men prepare moulds for them , viz. creeds , liturgies , systems of divinity , and the like , wherein they cast and fashion all mens vnderstandings , so that none but must own those , though he do not understand a word of them ; nor must dispute them ; though his heart and his brain tell him they are false and impious . heathen . this is much such an uniformity as i have heard in some of your books , was practised by the tyrant procrustes , who dwelling near a common road , seized all travellers , and carried them to his bed , which was framed exactly for his own stature , and if their bodies were longer , chopt off their feet or heads to make them fit , and if too short , strained their bones and sinews out with engines to a due proportion ; was not this gentleman a great lover of decency , order and uniformity ? if there were not variety , there would be no motion , for it is the various working power , and as it were strife between the properties that causeth all vegetation and manifestation ; if there were but one thing , there would be nothing , or a standing still , which the iews great prophet seems mystically to shew , when he saith , god made all things out of nothing : for there was no manifestation or appearances before god moved himself on the face of the waters ; which moving , seems to signifie the strife of the various forms , qualities and properties of the hidden nature , without which nothing could be generated . but here i must be silent , for we are counted heathens already , and i do not know what worse censures may pass upon us , if we too far explain those notions , which though founded in nature , are yet so disagreeable to the conceits and practice of the multitude . but this we are sure of , that men ought not to hate or suppress any thing but evil ; for man's most deadly enemies are within himself ; whence one of the wisest of the iews kings affirmed , that he that overcame his own lusts and passions was a greater conqueror than he that subdued a city . french-man . for my own part i shall for the future be more careful how i credit reports ; we in our country are told by our learned , that you are meer heathens , infidels , idolaters and worshippers of the sun , moon , and all the host of heaven . heathen . i nothing wonder that you europians should be mistaken about us , who live so remote , since you seem so little to understand the opinions of each other amongst your selves , every one misrepresenting the sentiments and doctrines of all that differ from him . 't is true , we do highly esteem and admire all the heavenly host , and those refulgent quires of the coelestials , especially that glorious eye of the world , the sun , as being the handy-works and wonderful powers of the incomprehensible creator , and think it part of our duty to express our gratitude and veneration to the one only fountain whence all those amazing wonders proceed ; for he that contemns the streams cannot truly honour the fountain . do not your own prophets teach you to honour rulers and governours , because they derive their government from god ▪ and if you do not only worship and bow the knee one to another ( who are at best but brittle animated dirt ) but also reverence the works of your own hands , as a man cloathed in goodly rayment , and the like , how much more ought we to have in high veneration those wonderful fountains of light , heat , motion and vitality , which are the manifested powers of god , and his upper vice-gerents and lieutenants over the lower world ? did not you tell me but now that you esteemed your hugenotes worthy of death or persecution , because they would not pay esteem and adoration to a few painted clouts , the pictures of their fellow-creatures , which you call saints , not knowing whether they be truly so or not ; and yet will you condemn our brachmans , for directing their esteem to these glorious master-pieces of the creation ? if you count such lifeless pittiful things , as wood and stone , or things painted and fashioned by man , fit to be representations of your godds , and means whereby to enliven your phantasies and minds to an higher degree of devotion ( which was the sole intent of the first inventers of those things ) what regard then ought we not to have of those living powers of god , the coelestial bodies , by whose sweet and friendly influences all created beeings are preserved and nourished ? what is more exciting to a well-disposed mind than to behold that glorious body the sun , with the innumerable train of stars , and the various species in the four worlds ? or what doth more ravishingly declare the greatness , goodness , and eternal wisdom of the immense creator ? this is a book we study , in which the grand charter of nature , and the holy mysteries of god are recorded , and we think we do not err in preferring it before the endless and contentious thwarting volumns of the talkative philosophers and wrangling school-men . french-man . i have been told , and you seem to own it , that you will not kill any of the inferior creatures , nor eat their flesh ; but i pray , hath not man power to do as he pleaseth with those creatures ? and were not the made for that very purpose ? heathen . god hath made all creatures inferior to man , who hath freedom to use and do unto them all as he pleaseth , having free will to chuse either good or evil ; but he that follows the better and leaveth the worse , chuseth the better part , and is made god's friend , and in amity with all the creation ; for man is a likeness of all things , and contains their true natures and properties ; and therefore whatever he giveth himself unto , the same becomes strong in him , be it virtue or vice : for which cause , our well-advised fathers commanded us , our wives and children , to abstain from all kinds of violence and oppression , especially to those of our own species , that thereby our souls might be preserved from being precipitated into wrath , and so retain humanity , and the more noble faculties of our souls unspotted , as well as our bodies rendred wholsom , clean , and fit to be temples for the divine spirit , esteeming abstinence , cleanness and separation to be the true paths that lead to all external and eternal bliss ; it being in our opinion an unfit , and altogether unworthy thing , that the great , noble and immortal soul of man should so much degenerate from its high and illustrious birth , as to joyn or suffer it self to be incorporated with the low and savage nature of beasts . nor do we think it lawful for us to heat our veins , and distemper our blood with wine , since water more kindly quencheth our thirst ; the innocent and fragrant herbs and fruits of our gardens afford us ample satisfaction ; and we should be ashamed to make our bodies the graves of the inferior creatures ▪ and though our princes are sometimes harsh and severe to us , yet we pacifie them with meek , submissive and humble behaviour . and since as little as possible we can , we hurt not any thing , therefore nothing hurts us , but live in perfect unity and amity with all the numberless inhabitants of the four worlds , doing by them as we would be done unto , whereby we dis-arm their rage , and their fury finds no place against us . french-man . but pray tell me how long you have led this kind of life ; and whether your sons and daughters do follow your religion and examples ; for amongst the europians nothing is more common than for youth to degenerate , and wander after the multitude , and abandon their fathers rules , especially if they should be but half so singular as you are . heathen . as for the antiquity of our course of life , i think for the greater part , i may date it from the worlds original . your own doctors teach , that adam , the first man , was placed in a garden , and that the green herb and tree bearing fruit was to be to him for meat ; and do generally agree that afterwards , at least during the old world , viz. to the time of the flood ( which was in the year of the world , 1616. ) eating of flesh was not allowed or practised ; and though afterwards it was practised , yet 't is probable it did not obtain with all : but there is reason to believe that still the better and more reserved sort did abstain ; for about the year of the world , 3300. ( near the time that your holy records mention ierusalem to be besieged by nebuchadnezzar ) we find the famous philosopher pythagoras flourishing , who expresly taught his followers ( which by reason of his parts and virtues were not a few ) not to eat any flesh , but content themselves altogether with vegetables ; and this great man travelling for the acquest and diffusion of knowledge into divers parts , left not our india unvisited , and there planted this wholsom doctrine , which ever since hath not wanted observers , derived down by a continual succession to our times . 't is true , our ancestors have obliged us to some things , which may seem frivolous and vain , as not to kill any kind of vermin , which are very offensive to the life of man : but indeed these prohibitions well regarded , shew their more deep wisdom and fore-sight ; for they did consider , that their philosophy would not only be embraced by wise men , but also by a great number of fools ( as the most part of all men are , in one thing or another ) and if they should have permitted them to have killed any kind of creatures , the foolish would have concluded , they might by the same rule as well kill others , and so by degrees come to kill men , as most other nations do . besides , not only our cleanly regular temperate lives free us from many of those vermin wherewith others are troubled , but we take it for a rule , that such as would live an abstemious separated life from evil and violence , must refrain from some things that are lawful , as well as from those that are unlawful ; as one of your prophets says excellently , all things are lawful , but not expedient . touching our sons and daughters , they all constantly follow our foot-steps , and it hath very rarely been known , that any of them have forsaken the precepts of their fathers ; being descended from a root of temperance and equality , they are naturally sober and temperate , for they use not tippling-houses , nor spend their patrimony in drinking wine , gaming , debauchery and gluttony ; so that the more children we have , the richer we esteem our selves , they proving no more chargeable to us than lambs do to sheep : they all marry wives of our own tribe and religion , and there is no dispute about either portion or joynture : their greatest pleasure and chief recreation is to contemplate the heavens , and their glorious furniture , the sun , moon and stars in their various motions and configurations , as also the pleasant gardens , groves and fountains , and to free the inhabitants thereof from the tyranny and bondage of men as much as in them lies : and so through the whole course of our lives , abstaining from all that tendeth to evil , and promoting what we can the good of the whole creation ; we endeavour to imitate the adorable maker and conserver of the universe , whose off-spring we are , and in whom we live , and move , and have our beeing . french-man . you have not only gratified my curiosity , but in several things informed my vnderstanding . and i heartily wish that your virtue and morality were crowned with true christianity , and our christianity embellisht with the real practice of your virtue , temperance and moderation . and so bid you farewell . to shew that the recommending abstinence from flesh , is no new upstart conceit , i shall here add those notable verses of the ingenious poet ovid , written above 1600 years ago , in his metamorphosis , as i find them translated by sandys , where he brings in the famous philosopher pythagoras ( from whom the indian bannians derive their doctrine ) thus discoursing . forbear your selves , o mortals , to pollute with wicked food , corn is the generous fruit. apples oppress their boughs , plump grapes the vine , thousand sweet herbs and savoury roots combine with beautious flowers of most fragrant scent , your nice and liquorish pallates to content . the prodigal earth abounds with genele food , affording conquests without death or blood : but beasts with flesh their ravenous hunger cloy , and yet not all ; horses in pastures joy , so flocks and herds : but those whom nature hath endu'd with cruelty and savage wrath , wolves , bears , armenian tygers , lyons , in hot blood delight . how horrible a sin ! that intrails , bleeding intrails should entomb ! that greedy flesh , with flesh should fat become ! whilst by the livers death the living lives , of all , which earth , our bounteous mother gives , can nothing please , except they teeth in blood and wounds , and stygian fury be imbrew'd ? naught satiate the wild variety of thy rude paunch , unless another dye ? that good old age , that innocent estate , which we the golden call , was fortunate in herbs and fruits , her lips with blood undy'd ; then fowls through th' air their wings in safety ply'd the hare then fearless wandred o're the plain , nor fish by their credulety were slain ▪ not taught , was man , that fawning treachery , all hv'd secure , till he that did envy ( what daemon e'er it was ) those harmless cates , and cramb'd his guts with flesh , set ope the gates to cruel crimes . but first , these slaughtering harms , a fire of zeal at holy altars warms ; enjoyning sacrifices with the blood of savage beasts , which made our lives their food . thus the wild boar for rooting up the corn , and leaving painful plow-mens hopes forlorn , was thought to merit death : vine-brouzing goats do next to angry bacchus yield their throats . what harm have poor sheep done , whose udders swell , and yield of nectar a perpetual well ? supplying man with their soft wool , and are alive than dead , more profitable far . or what the ox , a creature without guile inur'd to patience and continual toil ? he most ungrateful is , deserving ill the gift of corn , that can unyoke , then kill . the husband-man that neck with ax to wound , is too severe , that plow'd his stubborn ground ; so oft till'd , so many crops brought in , yet not content therewith , ascribes the sin , to guiltless godds , as if the powers on high in death of labouring innocence could joy . whence springs so dire an appetite in man to interdicted food ? o mortals ! can or dare you feed on flesh ? henceforth forbear , i you intreat , and to my words give ear , when limbs of slaughtered beasts become your meat , then think and know , that you your servants eat . finis . an answer to a declaration put forth by the general consent of the people called anabaptists in and about the city of london which declaration doth rather seem a begging of pardon of the caveliers then [sic] a vindication of that truth and cause once contended for : i seeing so much wickedness ... / from a true lover and owner of the people called quakers ... richard hubberthorn. hubberthorn, richard, 1628-1662. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a44834 of text r16813 in the english short title catalog (wing h3218). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 55 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 13 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a44834 wing h3218 estc r16813 13623498 ocm 13623498 100861 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a44834) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 100861) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 791:20) an answer to a declaration put forth by the general consent of the people called anabaptists in and about the city of london which declaration doth rather seem a begging of pardon of the caveliers then [sic] a vindication of that truth and cause once contended for : i seeing so much wickedness ... / from a true lover and owner of the people called quakers ... richard hubberthorn. hubberthorn, richard, 1628-1662. burrough, edward, 1634-1662. answer to a declaration of the people called anabaptists. 24 p. printed for thomas simmons ..., london : 1659. "the baptists in their postscript for a confirmation of a seal to their confusion, they have subscribed these names following, viz. henry jessey ... [et al.]" "an answer to a declaration of the people called anabaptists," by e. burrough: p. 12-24. reproduction of original in huntington library. eng jessey, henry, 1603-1663. anabaptists -england -london -early works to 1800. toleration -early works to 1800. society of friends -england -london. a44834 r16813 (wing h3218). civilwar no an answer to a declaration put forth by the general consent of the people called anabaptists, in and about the city of london. which declara hubberthorn, richard 1659 10812 5 5 0 0 0 0 9 b the rate of 9 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-12 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-01 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-04 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2005-04 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an answer to a declaration put forth by the general consent of the people called anabaptists , in and about the city of london . which declaration doth rather seem a begging of pardon of the caveliers , then a vindication of that truth and cause once contended for . i seeing so much wickedness , confusion , fear and unbelief in so small a thing in vindication of themselves publickly to the nation , it was upon me to answer something to it ; and my end in so doing is rather to instruct them , then to shame them . from a true lover and owner of the people called quakers , ( above all flatterers ) because i see they have not bowed their knee to baal , nor worshipped the power of the beast under any diverse colour whatsoever , but walks in that righteousness which must establish the nation , richard hubberthorn . the baptists in their postscript for a confirmation or a seal to their confusion , they have subscribed these names following , viz. henry jessey john tombes richard wollaston henry tull william kiffen william warren john battee john clement edward cresset george gospright john sowden benj. hewlin edward harrison samuel tull edward green edward grainge richard dean edward roberts henry knollys john spilsbury john gosnold samuel stanton thomas cooper henry hills . london , printed for thomas simmons , near aldersgate , 1659. an answer to a declaration put forth by the general consent of the people called anabaptists , in and about the city of london . friends , called anabaptists , whereas you say , you are mis-represented to the nation ; 1. as such as are opposite to magistracy . 2. as such as would destroy the publick ministry of the nation , who differ from you in some things about religion 3. that you do countenance the people called quakers in their irregular practice . 4. that you endeavour a toleration of all miscarriages in things ecclesiastical and civil , under pretence of liberty of conscience . 5. that ye design to murther and destroy those that differ from you in matters of religion , thereby endeavouring to make you odious to some people fearing god ; and also to incense the rude multitude against you , to provoke them ( if possible ) to destroy you , &c. unto the first of which you say , though we cannot answer in justification of every individual person that is of our profession in matters of religion ; yet we can say this , and prove it to all the world , that it hath been our profession , and is our real practise , to be obedient to magistracy in all things civil ; and willing to live peaceably under whatever government is or shall be established in this nation : for we do believe and declare magistracy to be an ordinance of god , and ought to be obeyed in all lawful things . answ. for you to give up your selves willingly and peaceably unto whatsoever government is or shall be established in this nation , without any limitation , and to submit unto any power or magistracy that doth or shall rule , as the ordinance of god , without any limitation or qualification , is far below that spirit which was once in some of you in that profession , for you have told of having the lawes regulated according to the scriptures , and of having judges as at the first , and counsellors as at the beginning ; and then not to submit to what government soever , but that which is according to equity and justice . and what do you bear arms or fight for , if not for a government according to truth , and that righteousness may establish the nation ? some have judged this to be the very design and end of the war and controversie against many that was governours and magistrates , and was by some called the ordinance of god , and the higher power ; and if now you resolve to live peaceably , and submit to whatever government shall be established , then your fighting is at an end : and if charles stuart come , or any other , and establish popery , and govern by tyranny , you have begged pardon by promising willingly to submit and live peaceably under it as the ordinance of god . and if jereboam come to reign and set up calves to worship , and cause the people to sin , yet you will submit and live peaceably and quietly under it , accounting it the ordinance of god . and if a pharaoh come to rule , he that bears rule must be counted a magistrate , and a magistracy must be accounted the ordinance of god by you , and peaceably submitted unto ; and whatsoever government they set up by their act will be accounted lawful things , and you must submit to them , else you have proved your selves all lyars ; but some did judge that ye had been of another spirit . to the second you say , as for the publick ministry of the nation , who differ from us in the matter of baptizing infants , and some things in church government ; we are so far from endeavouring to destroy them , that we judge they ought to have the liberty of their conscience therein ; and that it is our duty to stand by them , and preserve them ( so much as in us lies ) from all injury and violence . answ. it seems then that there is not so much difference betwixt them and you as will make them antichristian and you christian : and there is a near complyance when as it is your duty to stand by them , and preserve them , while they are baptizing infants ; but can you stand by them and preserve them , and not tell them that it is anti-christian , or contrary to the scriptures ? and do you think that they will do as much for you , as to stand by you while you are plunging your members in the water ? and although you do so as you say , is not this contradiction to your selves in what you say in the same paper ? for do you not say , that you will not tolerate any miscarriages in things civil or religious ; and whether is not this a miscarriage in things religious to baptize infants ? and whether do you not tolerate this miscarriage in them , while you stand by to preserve them in it , as you say from injury and violence ? but who doth offer any violence to them which you are their guard against ? but the priests will hardly believe you , and if they ever have power , that will not pardon you for so saying , and therefore you had better have been silent , then have shewed your weakness and ignorance for nothing . to the third you say , concerning the people called quakers , it is well known unto all , ( that are not wilfully ignorant ) there are none more opposite to their irregular practices then we are , nor are there any that they have exprest more contradiction to in matters of religion then against us , though their provocation therein hath not put us in the least on a desire of depriving them of their just liberty , while they live morally honest and peaceable in the nation . answ. is not this secret smiting without a cause ? what irregular practice is that which you accuse them of and will not mention ? is this honestly done ? what are they worse then the episcopal priests you mention to them , wherein they differ from you ? and why not to the quakers ? is it enough for any man to believe that they are irregular , because you say so without any proof ? or dare you not mention wherein you judge it so , least they should disprove you ? but you say , there is not any they have expressed more contradiction to in matters of religion , then against you . answ. that is false , for they have more contradicted the common priests of the nation , as their books and sufferings will witness , although they have according to truth contradicted you , and also have more of your contradictions and confusions to declare concerning you , which is not yet published ; but what do you account their irregular practises ? is it because their yea is yea , and their nay is nay in all their communications ( and yours not so ? ) or is it because they cannot swear at all ? or is it because they cannot have any mans person in admiration because of advantage , or because they cannot respect the person of the rich , nor honour the person of the mighty ? is it because they do unto others as they would have others to do unto them , or because they speak the truth every one to his neighbour without partialitie or hypocrisie ? or is it any thing relating to these things above named , if not , in your next mention in what , or else the wise in heart will judge you to speak onely from your imaginary conceit ? but what is your end in so secret smiting them ? do you think to excuse your selves by accusing them ? and who is it that doth charge you with countenancing the quakers in their practises , either regular or irregular ? i know none that hath any ground so to charge you , but to men of understanding who can see beyond words , you rather appear to be begging a pardon of the episcopal and presbyter , and the wilde boyes and apprentices of london , by accusing the quakers as hereafter will appear , and that fearfulness and unbelieving is entered into your hearts , and so your spirits is betrayed into a slavish fear , but if ever you be accepted or owned of god , you must own that for your strength which the quakers live in , and if ever any rule for god in this nation , they must own that light , life and spirit which they are guided by , and then they will not despise , but have unitie with the quakers . to the fourth you say , whereas we are further charged with endeavouring an vniversal tolleration of all miscarriages both in things religious and civil , under pretence of liberty of conscience , it is in both respects notoriously false . and we do before the lord , that shall judge both quick and dead , yea , before angels and men , declare our utter detestation of such a toleration ; for in matters civil , we desire there may not be the least tolleration of miscarriage in any , much lesse in our selves . nor do we desire in matters of religion that popery should be tolerated , the blood of many thousands of the people of god having been barbarously shed by the professors thereof , or any persons tolerated that worship a false god , nor any that speak contemptuously and reproachfully of our lord jesus christ , nor any that deny the holy scriptures , contained in the books of the old and new testament , to be the word of god ; and yet we are not against tolerating of episcopacy , presbytery or any stinted form ; provided they do not compel any others to a compliance therewith , or a conformity thereunto . for whatever composers of any form of worship , may possibly err , it is derogating from god , and his holy word , and injurious to men to compel any to the practise thereof . answ. what confusion is here , and contradiction both to your selves and to the example of christ ? as to religion you will not tolerate popery , because the blood of many of the people of god have been barbarously shed by the professors thereof , neither will you have any persons tolerated that worship a false god , nor any that speak contemptuously and reproachfully of the lord jesus christ , nor any that deny the holy scriptures contained in the books of the old and new testament to be the word of god . and yet you are not against tolerating of episcopacy , presbytery or any stinted form ; why will you not tolerate popery as well as episcopacie ? hath not the professors of episcopacie murthered and slain , and do labour to murther and slay the people of god as well as the papists ? and why will you tolerate the common prayer among the episcopacie , and not the mass among the papists , seeing that the mass was the substance out of which the common-prayer was extracted ? hear is nothing but partialitie , to tolerate one thing and not another of the same kind , and why will you not tolerate the persons of those that worship a false god , nor the persons that deny the scriptures to be the word of god , nor the persons of those that speak contemptuously nor reproachfully of the lord jesus christ . an. if you will not tolerate their persons , then you will murther or destroy their persons , and herein you have proved the accusation against you to be true , that you have a design to murther and destroy those that differ from you in matters of religion ; as for instance , those that worship a false god , they differ from you in maters of religion , and you will not have any of their persons tolerated , then their persons must be destroyed for differing from you in matters of religion ; and they that deny the scripture ( that is the writings ) to be the word of god ( that is to be christ ) whose name is called the word of god , you will not tolerate their persons , then you will destroy them , because they differ from you in matters of religion , and those that speak reproachfully of jesus christ , you will not tolerate their persons , then you will destroy their persons , because they differ from you in matters of religion ; and thus having contradicted your selves , you have also contradicted the example of christ , for he came among those that worshipped false gods , even stocks and stones , and graven images , the works of mens hands , and he was not against tolerating their persons , neither came he to destroy mens lives because of such things , but had a gospel to preach unto them , whereby they might learn to know the living god , and turn from dumb idols , and those that spoke reproachfully against him , and said he had a devil , yet he was not against tolerating their persons , but preached the kingdom of god to them , and did bid them seek it and the righteousness thereof ; and told them that the kingdom of god was within them ; and he was among such as denyed that there was a god , or christ , resurrection , angel or spirit ; and this is more then to deny the scriptures to be the word of god , which indeed is words and not the word . and christ was not against tolerating of any of the persons , as you have express'd your selves to be , and so shewed forth a murthering spirit ; but seeing that you will not have any person tolerated that worships a false god , what must be done with their persons ? but what difference is there ( in the ground or cause of toleration ) between those that worship a false god , or they which worship the true god in a false way ? and if the persons of neither of those should be tolerated , then the toleration would but reach a little compasse : but who must be judge of that blasphemie , contempt , or reproach spoken against the lord jesus christ ? was it not blasphemie in the apostles dayes , for one to say he was a jew , and was not , revelations 2. verse 9. and is it not as great blasphemy now to say that he is a christian , or a believer , that is not ? and must not any person be tolerated that speak such works ? and must not such a person be tolerated that denies the scriptures to be the word of god ? then it appears they must not be tolerated that faith , in the beginning was the word , as john 1.4 . nor that say that christ is the word , and that the scriptures are they which testifieth of him , as joh. 5. and if we search out your toleration to the bottom , it will be reduced into this compasse , that none shall be tolerated but those that say as you say , and professe what you professe ; and you among your selves are as a kingdom divided that cannot stand , and you are not they which are fit to rule in the nation to prescribe liberty nor give toleration ; but if you had been of christs spirit , you would have professed toleration , and not destruction unto all persons in matters of religion , and then they that have the gospel of christ may minister it freely among those that worship a false god , and among those that worship the true god ignorantly , and minister it among the papists , episcopal & presbyterie , heathens , turks and pagans , which are all out of the way , and so to convince the gain-sayers , so that all the wicked impositions , cruelty , persecution and killing one another about religion would cease , and then the gospel of peace which is the power of god would rule over deceit , and truth and righteousness would increase and spread over the nations ; but you have appeared to be of a spirit of confusion and contradiction ; for when you have spoken against tolerating the persons before mentioned ; yet you say ( in contradiction to it ) you are not against tolerating episcopacie , presbyterie , or any stinted form , provided they do not compel any others to a compliance therewith , or conformitie thereunto , &c. now consider , and let even your own foolishness correct you ; is not the papists which ye have excepted against , a stinted form ? and are not those that worship a false god , a stinted form ? and are not the sadduces that deny that there is either god , christ , angel , resurrection or spirit , a stinted form ? and is not the jewes a stinted form although they speak contempteously of the lord jesus christ , which before you have said you will not tolerate their persons because they speak contempteously of the lord jesus christ ; and now you say you will tolerate , because they are a stinted form : how must the jewes be converted who have spoken contempteously and reproachfully of the lord jesus christ , calling him a deceiver , a blasphemer , and that he ●ad a devil , seeing you will not tolerate their persons until they be converted ? and how shall the heathens that worship false gods be converted , seeing their persons must not be tolerated ? and what must be done with those many hundreds of congregations in england which worship god in the spirit , and yet do deny the scriptures ( as words and writings ) of the old and new testament to be the word of god , but do confesse them to be a testimony of the word , and of him who is the beginning and end of the words , in whom , and by whom they all come to be fulfilled to the saints , what must their persons be done with , seeing they must not be tolerated ? but you may say , that those things was spoken in your haste , or at least in your fear , whereby you were surprized in the vproar of the rude boyes and apprentices of london ; but a little fear entering into the hypocrisie doth try your spirits , and cause you to bring forth the intents of your hearts , as in your paper is manifest . to the last you say , forasmuch as we are charged to murder and destroy those that differ from us in matters of religion , we do not only abhor and detest it , as a cursed practice ; but we hope have approved our selves , both in this city and the nation to the contrary , notwithstanding the great provocation of some , who have endeavoured our ruine . for that we desire is just liberty to men , as men ; that every man may be preserved in his own just rights ; and that christians may be preserved as christians , though of different apprehensions in some things of religion ; in the prosecution whereof , our lives shall not be dear unto us , when we are thereunto lawfully called : the designs of our adversaries in these calumnies are to mis-represent us to some people fearing god ; and also to incense the rude multitude against us , purposely to provoke them ( if possible ) to destroy us . answ. in what you have before expressed , you have more given then taken away the occasion of this charge against you , by your instancing the not tolerating of such persons before mentioned ; for if you did ( as you say ) desire the just liberty of men as men , then every man without respect to apprehensions , perswasions or worships , as a man and person should be tolerated , that those who are christians might inform them of the true god when they worship false gods ; and hereby you give great occasion unto those that seek occasion from you , when you with a general consent cry against tolerating the persons of so many sorts of people about differing from you in religion ; and as for some of them whom ye would accuse as irregular , many by experience can witnesse , that neither weapon nor tongue formed against them can prosper ; and the time may come when you may be glad to be upholden with a little of their strength , and not to reject those whom god hath , doth , and will own for his people in the middest of their enemies ; for god hath made them even as eyes to behold the spirits of men , and the changings of their wayes , and to give them a reproof in due season when they darken wisdom and confound their matter by words without knowledge , in false fears and haste when they are out of patience , and out of faith in god , as the baptists here have done , and the fearful and unbelieving cannot accomplish the righteousnes of god , neither will he bring forth his intended work by them ; but such as are of a true spirit , that looks onely at the glory of god and setting up of his truth , who are come to the spiritual weapons , & doth not wrestle with flesh and blood , but with the powers of darkness and with spiritual wickednesse , and such as are not false accusers of others , but seeks the good of all men , such will the lord honour and exalt in his work , and they shall perfect his praise . so friends , you have been hasty to utter words before the lord , for which his reproof justly comes upon you ; therefore let your words be few , and mind the fear of the lord god which is the beginning of wisdom , and that will slay your false fears , from which unsavoury & unsound words hath proceeded ; for your religion is vain while your tongue is not bridled , for it is better to be still and keep silence , then to utter words from the line of confusion ( that is stretched over you ) thereby to get a name in the earth , which line all people walk in , but those who are led by the spirit of god to speak words that cannot be condemned , for it is the spirit of the lord god and his power which must slay the enmitie in you which is the ground of your prejudice and hard speeches against the lambs of christ , which when that is slain within , then those evil fruits of the lips will cease without , and then the fountain of life will open in you which brings forth fruits of another nature ; and when the fruits of your lips is truth , rightteousness , and peace , then will you have followship with the father and the son , and with us who walk in his light . and whereas to the said declaration of the baptists , something was written in answer to part of it in short by another hand , not knowing the one of the other , but being found to be both of service as to return their wickednesse upon themselves , it is thought meet that the same also be hereunto annexed ; and here is also something in answer to some particular positions drawn up by the independants , so called , wherein their folly and weaknesse is also discovered , and all may see what enmity lodges in the hearts of all men against the despised people called quakers . an answer to a declaration of the people called anabaptists , in and about the city of london , wherein their weakness and ignorance is discovered under their own hands to the city and nation , as hereby may appear . friends , whereas your declaration consisteth of five particulars , four , of which is not or so much concernment to me to answer ; but as for one of them , for the nations sake , and for the truths sake , and that you may be reproved even you the heads and principal men of your congregations , and because you are such under whose hands your declaration passeth , therefore in that consideration with many others , this i return as an answer to you , and to the city and nation , in pursuit of yours that hath proceeded from a heart of unbelief , and unto evil and malicious intents against a despised people whom the lord hath owned , and will own though you and the whole world do reject them . and whereas you say , you are mis-represented to the nation , that you do countenance the people called quakers in their irregular practice ; and to clear yourselves you say , it is well known to all there are none more opposite to their irregular practises then we are , ( say you ) nor are there any that they have exprest more contradiction to then against us , though their provocation therein hath not put us on a desire ( say you ) of depriving them of their just liberty while they live morally honest and peaceable in the nation , &c. answ. oh ye heads and principal men , and ye chief pastors , elders , and members ( so called ) of churches , what have ye done ? and wherefore have you thus proceeded , why have ye renounced an innocent people that never did you harm , nor ever gave any offence unto you , saving in crying against the deadnesse of your forms and traditions , and seeming religious practises , and reproving evil in you ; alas for you ( ye accounted wise men ) do you judge an advantage will be unto your selves in this thing ? or do you think to work a disadvantage unto us by your renouncing and denial of us ? i must tell you , we are not troubled hereat for our own sakes , neither is any part of our hope or confidence concerning you made void , for we never looked upon some of you to be otherwise then our enemies in your hearts . oh ye hipocrites whom god will judge because of your hypocrisie , who now so much as in you lies ( if it were in your power ) you would leave us to the mercilesness of cruel men , you would save your selves , and leave us to the mercy of the devil ; but though you renounce us , yet the lord hath owned us , and will own us to your grief ; and what are you become our accusers ? are you become chargers of us with irregular practise ? are you endeavouring to make us more odious in the eyes of wicked men then we are for righteousness sake ? but wherefore have ye done this ? is it to save your selves from reproaches ? have you therefore reproached us , and have you sought to make us vile that your selves might appear free ? and have you thought to gain the favour of the wicked , & to make a peace with your enemies by reviling of us unto them ? is this your end , o ye dissemblers , to reproach us to the nation and city behind our backs ? you church members so called ) and teachers , and pastors , and principal men that would save your selves and gratifie the devil and joyn in union with the wicked , and make your selves friends with them by slandering and renouncing the peaceable people , who are more so then your selves , and none of them guilty of ●rregularitie as much as some of you ; though you would fawn upon the nation and city by renouncing of us , as if we were irregular and so and so ; but do you think the nation and city have not taken notice ? or however hereby they may . what if i say unto them and you , that none of the quakers ever were so instrumental by illegal opposition , for the turning out of parliaments and changing the government of this nation into confusion , like as some of you anabaptists have been ; and this the city and nation may take notice of the irregularitie of some of your selves , who have been instrumental even by illegal opposition , and perfect tyrannie in mens account , and treacherie also to the turning out parliaments , and thereby wronging the nation for their own advantages ; so that the practise of some of you hath been more unlawful and con●●●rie to law then ours hath been , and the city and nation may take notice of it ; as your declaration is to them , so is this my answer ; never any quaker ( so called ) in war-like posture hath stood in defiance , and been instruments to turn out peoples lawful representatives ; did not some of your brethren , even of the anabaptists , take commission from the late parliament , and no lesse then vowing fidelity to them , and yet presently rising in opposition to them , and turning them out of doors ? and was not this treachery and hypocrisie , and irregularitie ? and can the nation charge any of them called quakers with any such work ? no they cannot ; but some of the anabaptists they may , even with this and other the like illegal dealing ; and more i might instance , and not only charge behind your backs falsly as you have done of us , but i may affirm to your faces , and justly prove these and such things upon you ; but why have not you named what irregular practise the quakers are guilty of ? i charge you you subscribers against us , and accusers of us to prove your accusation , i say i charge you before the lord and this whole nation and city to prove your accusation , and to instance what particular practises performed and owned amongst us , either in relation to just government in church or state that are irregular , and you shall have a reply , though you say , there are none more opposite to our irregular practice then you are . oh how fain would you flatter and fawn upon our enemies to make peace with the devil ; how would you creep by craft and joyn into a league with our and your enemies ? and how fain would you be at peace with them and leave us even to their mercilesness if it were in your power ? have we ever dealt thus by you ? have we ever sought to render you rebels and traytors to the nation as you in effect have done to us ? have we ever sought occasions against you , and to present you to the nation as vile as we could for to save our selves , and leave you to the wil of your enemies ? this have you done to us , and we leave you to be rewarded even by the lord who will never renounce us , nor cast us out , though you do in such a time as this , a time of confusion and distraction , wherein if the lord did not appear to be our defence more then men , we should be swallowed up of our enemies ; and must you , even a separate people , members , pastors and ministers of churches ( so called ) renounce us at this season , on purpose to have us destroyed so much as you may ? well , we have not dealt so with you , neither do we desire to uncover your nakedness to the nation , you had not had thus much if you had not been the occasion of it your selves ; and surely what you have done in this particular , some of your own members will not accept it from you with thanks to you ; but i shall say more to you , when i have under all your hands the particular practises which you charge to be irregular ; and though there hath been and is contradictions between us and you in matter of religion , and difference in particular practises about church and ministry , and orders , &c. yet what is this ? this was amongst our selves , though hereof you have no reason to boast , as of any victory that you have obtained over us in any such controversie , neither hath the spirit of god so appeared in that authority among you , as that you have gained any from us to you , but rather the contrary ; but what of these contentions ? we have never so contended with you , as that we have hated your persons , or sought to betray you into the hands of devouring mouths , the lord is our witness in this , though you have done contrary ( even sought to betray our persons in this your work ) and i must tell you dishonestly and undiscreetly have you done in this matter , who never could unto this day in any contest between us about religious matters convince us of error or irregular practises , though now you have accused us to the whole nation , and not as in a way of debate about religion , but as in matter of state irregularity ; whereby plainly appears that you seek to betray us , even our persons into the hands of our merciless enemies , and you would make peace with them , and deliver us into their merciless hands ; and thereby shewed hatred , not unto us as upon the account of religion only , but even hatred to our persons , and hath accused us as of personal irregularitie ; and so hath not shewed love to our persons , but rather sought our destruction : oh ye wicked men to whose charge god shall lay this iniquity of treachery and unfaithful dealing to us , even as with brethren , which is the most deceitful iniquity . and alas for you , what are your desires of depriving us of our just liberty ? god shall give us liberty , and from him we shall enjoy it whether you will or no ; and for our just liberty we shall not be beholding to you , though i must tell you , if our liberty were in your power it is greatly to be doubted , and even your own dealing in this your declaration gives occasion for it , that our liberty would be enslaved if it were in your hands , but we bless the lord it is in his hand & not in yours ; for so much of treachery towards us hath here appeared , even in giving us up ( so much as in you is ) to the will of our enemies , and the spirit is in you which would betray brethren , that for the time to come we can never trust you ; but we do not give our power to you to enjoy our liberty from you , nor ever shall ; and if we walk moraly honest and peaceable in the nation , it is more then you do in this matter , for this your practise is not morally honest in accusing of us behind our backs to the nation , and city , and authorities thereof of irregularity , &c. though as i have said never any of us had so great a hand by open opposition tending to make war in the nation as some of you in some things i might instance , even for their sakes to whom you have accused us , and that we are more peaceable then some of your selves the nation and city knows ; have we thrust our selves into arms , and sought offices and places , and commands as some of you ? have ever any of us appeared in actual arms against parliament & nation as some of you ? have we given the city or the nation by any visible appearance to fear a war from us , as you have done ? let the nation & city , & the witness in all mens consciences judge ; so that we are known to be peaceable as much or more then your selves , for we have never sought to you to take up arms with us , as some among you have sought to others , which may demonstrate that we are as peaceable in the nation , if not more then you ; and so you needed not to have premised such a thing on our behalf . and thus i have in short returned your secret treachery upon {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} own heads , and answered that same part of your declaration wherein i and the truth , and the whole flock of god was any way concerned ; and as for the rest of your declaration i will not seek occasions against it , though in some other things also therein exprest , i might search out your hearts , and discover the rottenness of them ; and where you say you declare magistracy to be an ordinance ; &c. might not i tell the nation and city that you are not content with magistracy , except of your own sect ; and might not i say , why were not you contented with that assembly of men that last sat ? and wherefore was it that you even some of you anabaptists were the chief instruments with swords in your hands to dissolve them , and so were instruments in bringing the nation into present confusion . and whereas you speak of the publick ministers of the nation , you are far from endeavouring to destroy them ( say you ) and it is your duty to stand by them and preserve them from all violence and injury , &c. to which i answer , what are you about to make a league and a covenant with antichrist ? have you for these many years been opposing them in words , and are you now recanting of what you have done when you are sensible of a danger upon you ? and will you now bind your selves to stand by them and preserve them from all injury , and even as they are ministers too ? but let me ask you , do you look upon them to be ministers of christ , or of antichrist ? if true ministers of christ , wherefore do you oppose them and cry against them in your pulpits , and hath formerly your selves and some of your brethren yet do publickly oppose them both by word and writing , oh! ye hypocrites . but if they are ministers of antichrist , then how is it that you will stand by them and preserve them as such , and would bind it upon them as their duty to stand by and preserve you ? is not this a league with hell and death ? are you turned backwards into love and affection towards them again , and so lost your former principles ? and is your zeal quite grown cold , or are you now onely flattering and dawbing with the ministers , because you see danger from them , while you seek but greater advantage against them ? they may indeed tell you they look upon you as not destroyers of their wayes and practises , neither to ease the nation from any burthen which they have laid upon it ; for it is manifest though you deny them in some particulars some of you , yet you can cry against that in some of them , and yet uphold the same thing ; i may lawfully instance that some of your brethren , some in this nation , and some in ireland takes or have lately taken tithes for preaching , and have yearly stipends , and so much by the year out of the states treasure for preaching , 100 l. 200 l. and 300 l. a piece by the year , which indeed doth shew that you are not intending to destroy their oppressing and abominable practises , but the rather that you would turn them out of great places and benefits , and turn your selves in ; oh! deceit and wickedness which i am forced to lay open upon this occasion of your own just provocation hereunto ; and as for their preserving you and you them against such as do oppose you , they may easily joyn with you in this , if they could hope in your faithfulness , for some of you and your members have shewed as much enmity , have been open persecutors , even as they and their members have been , and your members have been sending the people of god to prison , and persecuting them even as the common priests of the nation : and you appear to be guided by the same spirit in many things , and if they be antichristian in their wayes and practises , its sure that you are not of christ , because you are like unto them in nature . and in that you say , you would have none tollerated in their religion that deny the scriptures to be the word of god , but you would tollerate episcopacy , presbytery or a stinted form , &c. say you . to which i say , i know that spirit which you are of , if it had its full authority would tolerate none but your selves , for your spirit in nature differs not from the spirit of the church of rome ; and what are you now for tollerating episcopacy , who were once your selves ( in your zeal for god , when your sincerity was not darkned , nor your hearts so much corrupted through places of honour , and through such things as now they are ) instruments to the pulling down of episcopacy , and will you now tollerate it again , and help to set it up , and build what you have destroyed , as if you recanted of what you had done , but plainly shewing that you are not of the same spirit that once you were of , but have lost sincerity , and can embrace idolatry , for once ye were the men that did oppose it , and did violently help to pluck it down ; but now you are for tolleration . oh! unconstant men this is to you , not herein discovering my judgement in the case , and if episcopacy , why may not popery be tollerated ? seeing they are one and the self same in ground and nature , and not much different in appearance , and you may agree to tollerate a stinted form in others , because your selves are in a stinted form also ; for what is yours else but a form , crying up your water and bread and wine , and differing from the world onely in these outward things , when as the city and nation knows you are men as covetous , as worldly minded , as ambitious , as self-seeking of honour and places as any others in the nation , and your religion appears to be a ●tinted form as much as others ; alas poor men , you have discovered your hearts in your declaration , and according to the corruption thereof i cannot but answer you ; and there are some that deny the scriptures to be the word of god , and say they are the words of god , and a declaration , and a treatise of what the saints believed and enjoyed ; and christ is the word of god , that may in time to come be tollerated in their religion in this nation , though you have renounced them : but while they are owned and regarded of the lord , they respect not your love nor hatred who are mortal men , and your breath in your nostrils , and must fall and perish as the dung in all your beauty , and your profession of religion , before the coming of the son of god . and in your post-script you say , you have under your hands sent forth your declaration in behalf of your selves , and others of your judgement ; but i must tell you , i do believe there are some even of those called anabaptists which will reject your work , and to them my answer is not , for i spare them : but to you fearful hypocrites in a time of danger , that have in this juncture of time renounced us without ground or reason in the sight of god , but for your ends , as if you would gain the favour of the nation and city by denyal of us , and looking upon your selves to be reproached because of us , when as you are a company of unworthy men , even unworthy of our reproaches , and to escape them have denied us , as seeming to clear your selves , but you are deceived in this matter , and it shall turn to work against you in the nation , and in the city ; for we have a more surer witness in their consciences , even in the consciences of all people that we are of god , then you have ; for take but away your outward water , and bread and wine , and some few outward practises , & what do you differ from the worst sort of men in the nation ; for doth not pride and hypocrisie , and self-love , and covetousness , and the love of this world abound amongst you , as much as amongst any others ? the witness in peoples consciences knows it , which shall be a witness for us and against you . you may indeed have gained league with the worst sort of men in the nation , but you have not gained the sincerity in people , and while we have that on our side to witness for us , take you the rude multitude , for we are not discouraged at all concerning this thing , but the rather do glory in the lord though we be denied of all , for though men forsake us , yet the lord careth for us ; and your own doing shall return upon your own heads : and thus much is sufficient to the substance of your declaration , and if i receive any reply , i shall expect it under the hands of you all , that i may further search and discover you unto your selves , and to the nation . and whereas there is a manuscript goes aboad , consisting of five particulars , which is said that it was delivered in to the committee of safety , as advice and councel to them : but who the authours of it are is something uncertain , but certain it is , that some of the called independant ministers and pastors were the chief promotors of it , and in the coppy which was delivered to my hands , it is said , these five particulars were the result of a little synod made up of presbyterians , independants and anabaptists ; but whether it is so or no i leave that , and would say something to some of the particulars , and even to the committee of safety and officers of the army , and all others of the nation for their better information , then the same paper describeth to them . the third particular consisteth about the magistrates power in matters of faith and worship , and the authours say , though they greatly prize christian liberty , yet they profess utter dislike and abhorrency of an vniversal toleration , as being contrary to the mind of god in his word . answ. it appears the authours are lovers of themselves , and prizers of their own liberty , but not of the liberty of others , but do utterly dislike and abhor the toleration of others , which may indeed be more righteous then themselves , and this is no less then the very principle of the whore of rome , which promotes her own liberty and makes others slaves , and abhors toleration to any but themselves ; and they plead scriptures as well as you for proof of their religion , and they will say all that differs from them are contrary to the scriptures , even as you say , when as there is very little better foundation in the scriptures for your religion then there is for theirs ; and it is doubtful to many what religion this day extant is perfectly according to the scriptures ; but yet thus much may be said , that church and that religion which are not in the same spirit as gave forth the scriptures , are not according unto the scriptures , and he that can distinguish of this , and who it is that hath the same spirit that gave forth the scriptures , are onely able to judge what religion is according to the scriptures ; but can the authors shew plainly out of the scriptures that their religion is onely according thereunto , and all others the contrary ? and until they prove this , why may not the rulers that are or may be in this nation , give toleration unto other sorts of people as well as to the independants the supposed authours of this paper ? the fourth particular consisteth concerning tithes , and say they , the taking away of tithes for maintenance of ministers , until as full a maintenance be as equally secured and as legally setled , tends very much to the distruction of the ministry , and preaching of the gospel in these nations . answ. alas for you poor ignorant creatures , ye foolish men , that seems to have no understanding of the ministry and gospel of christ ; do you indeed think that the true ministry of christ and the preaching of the gospel depends upon maintenance by tithes ? oh! ye robbers of god , who have secretly dishonoured him in your hearts , and publickly disgraced him as much as in you lies to the nation , as if he were not able to save his ministrie and the preaching of his gospel from destruction if tithes be taken away ; surely , you err in your judgements , and have no acquaintance with god , nor with his ministry nor gospel ; who have thus dishonoured him in setting up that maintenance by the forcible and unjust oppression of tithes , to be the preserving of ministry and gospel , and as if tithes were the upholding of ministry and gospel ; and you have thus falsly and wickedly measured god , his ministry and gospel , by the wickedness of your own hearts , who seems to be indeed of those hirelings that cheats souls for money , and runs for the gift like baalam , and for the lucre like the evil beasts and slow bellies ; and so i do believe that your false ministrie indeed and your feined pretence of preaching the gospel doth depend upon great sums of money and upon large maintenances , & we believe that indeed is the chief reason of your preaching and of your ministry , and it is very possible that your ministry and preaching may fall which is antichristian , when tithes and hire is taken away , which ministry dependeth thereupon , but the true ministry and preaching of the gospel will god maintain and uphold 〈…〉 of tithes being vanquished , and i hope some of the rulers of this nation and officers of the army will not believe your advice ; but yet you seem to be willing to renounce tithes if you could have as full a maintenance setled another way , so that however great maintenance comes , you regard not , so you can have that , whether by this way of oppression or the other , it s your maintenance you love and followes after , and seekes unto the powers of the earth for that end ; and how equally and legally tithes have been setled which you seem to affirm , let all good people judge ; given they were , and setled first in our nation , by the popes authoritie , to be the maintenance of that whores ministers , and all the laws which gave them and setled them have been antichristian and oppression in the nation , and there is the guilt of blood and of cruel unjust sufferings lying upon this nation in that very cause of tithes , and the hand of the lord is gone out against it , and against all contenders for it , and god will redeem the nation from under it , though you be putting your strength to uphold it through your hypocritical prayers and preaching and flatteries with god and men . the fifth particular is , these authors desire that countenance be not given unto nor trust reposed in the hands of quakers , being persons of such principles that are destructive to the gospel and inconsistent with peace and civil society . answ. here your wickedness and the malice of your hearts is let forth against the despised people , for their righteousness sake ; & this spirit of yours would not onely discountenance them but destroy them from the face of the earth , if it were in your hands , and you are worse then baalam ever was , and far more blind then he , for you are as it were seeking inchantments against the people of god for money , and you see not the goodly tents of jacob as he did , nor the people that are altogether blessed ; oh! ye envious persons that are even a preparing as much as in you is the destruction of a peaceable people , and that would keep them in slaverie under you , and you would have the countenance of the powers of the earth , but they must not , and you would monopolize all the places of trust for advantage to your selves , and you would hardly allow the people of god a place on the ground ; oh! ye sinful hypocrites and flatterers and slanderers of the just , but what need you have made such preparation against them , do they seek places of honour among you , do they delight in great places among men ? do they love to be great in this world ? nay their kingdom is from above , and they reject the countenance of the beasts authority , and they reject any confidence that the dragon and unjust powers can repose in them , and you need not have been afraid in this matter , and thereupon slandered us , and have back-bited us to the powers of the earth ; what do you fear ? even the thing which you fear will god in a judgement bring upon you , and there is a government to be set up in this nation , even that which is of the lamb ; and your antichristian monarchy the beast with all his heads and horns shall fall to the ground , and the lord may bring your fear upon you to your utter confusion , though you are making defences all that you can for your selves and your kingdom , and this seems to be a day wherein every mans heart is tryed , and every man and sort of people is pouring forth the malitiousness of their hearts against the poor people in scorn called quakers ; what say the papists and episcopal men ? quakers are a new sect and deceivers , &c. and what say the presbyterians and the independants of them ? oh! they are seducers , they are witches , they are false prophets , they are vagabonds not worthy of countenance , &c. nor any place of trust in the nation , &c. what say the anabaptists of them ? o they are blasphemers and hereticks and irregular persons and distructive to gospel , &c. this and such like is the cry of these and all sorts of people against the poor dispised people whom the eternal god hath made dreadful unto them all , who shall be the rod in his hand to break them and confound them , and utterly to destroy their antichristian kingdom ; for they are beloved of the lord though hated of all men , and though the whole body of the beast and antichrist and every horn of his head do set themselves to war against the lamb and his followers , and though all these sorts of people mentioned and some others do at this very day pour out their fury and malice against this people , yet shall they not be confounded , for their trust is in the living god , and as sure as the lord lives , the fear that people have of the prosperity of this people shall come upon them , and without weapon or arm of flesh , or the multitude of an host of men will their god dash their enemies to pieces ; and all ye sects whatsoever that are risen in opposition against us , what do we regard your fury and madness against us ? what do we fear your revilings , you uncircumcised philistines , we mock at your terrour , and we reject your strength as the strength of a straw , we dispise your authority which is not of god , as the authority of so many bryars and thorns , we can glory over you in the lord , what are you , and from whence did you come , is not babylon your city ? and is not the great whore your mother , and the mother of harlots your nurse ? and what is your growth but even like the grass of a summers growth that 's soon cut down and withered , and like the leaf of a summer tree that utterly perisheth in winter ? the mighty day of the lord is at your door , confusion is begun amongst you , and the sword of one may destroy another , and the strength of one shall rear another , and the remnant that is left shall be destroyed , and we must overcome them without sword or carnal weapon , and this shall come to pass in a day ; and the eye that is yet blind shall see it , and the child that is yet undelivered shall be a conquerour over the beast , and over his image , and over all you false sects , and over every horn that is risen up in envy against the lamb and his followers , the time of the lambs kingdom is at hand , behold , behold ye mountains of the earth , the sentence of eternal vengeance will pass upon you , ye hypocritical professors ; ye pastors , elders , members and ministers of churches ( so called ) the decree of the almighty is coming out against you , you have provoked him by your wickedness towards him and his people , even to the destruction of your own selves ; wherefore tremble before the lord , for his dread and the weight of his hand shall be upon your consciences . oh nation , mourn over thy iniquities which have provoked god against thee , and if men turn not unto him , his sore judgment will be upon thee , we are not for this party or the other , neither do we justifie one side in opposition to another , for we see the earth is corrupted , and all sorts of men that are this day striving one sort , against another , are in a wrong way and in a wrong spirit , and we cannot side with any of them , but we rather mourn over the nation who is torn in pieces by the ambitious spirit of her pretended rulers , and we desire the repentance of all , and not the destruction of any , and we are for gods part and not for men . e. bvrrovgh . the end . a letter concerning toleration humbly submitted, etc. epistola de tolerantia. english locke, john, 1632-1704. 1689 approx. 126 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 38 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2003-01 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a48884 wing l2747 estc r14566 11845307 ocm 11845307 49822 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a48884) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 49822) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 540:9) a letter concerning toleration humbly submitted, etc. epistola de tolerantia. english locke, john, 1632-1704. popple, william, d. 1708. [8], 61 p. printed for awnsham churchill, london, 1689. first published in latin, with title : epistola de tolerantia : goudae, 1689. translated from the latin of john locke by popple. attributed to john locke. cf. nuc pre-1956. reproduction of original in bristol public library, bristol, england. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng toleration. freedom of religion -england. 2002-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2002-08 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2002-09 jennifer kietzman sampled and proofread 2002-09 jennifer kietzman text and markup reviewed and edited 2002-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a letter concerning toleration : humbly submitted , &c. licensed , octob. 3. 1689. london , printed for awnsham churchill , at the black swan at amen-corner . 1689. a letter concerning toleration . there will be published in a few days , an agreement betwixt the present and the former government : or , a discourse of this monarchy , whether elective or hereditary . also of abdication , vacancy , interregnums , present possession of the crown , and the reputation of the church of england , &c. by a divine of the church of england , &c. foxes and firebrands : or , a specimen of the danger and harmony of popery and separation . a third-part . an hundred and fifty three chymical aphorisms : to which , whatever relates to the science of chymistry may fitly be referred . done by the labour and stidy of a country hermite , and printed in latin at amsterdam , anno 1688. sold by awnsham churchill in ave-mary lane. to the reader . the ensuing letter concerning toleration , first printed in latin this very year , in holland , has already been translated both into dutch and french. so general and speedy an approbation may therefore bespeak its favourable reception in england . i think indeed there is no nation under heaven , in which so much has already been said upon that subject , as ours . but yet certainly there is no people that stand in more need of having something further both said and done amongst them , in this point , than we do . our government has not only been partial in matters of religion ; but those also who have suffered under that partiality , and have therefore endeavoured by their writings to vindicate their own rights and liberties , have for the most part done it upon narrow principles , suited only to the interests of their own sects . this narrowness of spirit on all sides has undoubtedly been the principal occasion of our miseries and confusions . but whatever have been the occasion , it is now high time to seek for a thorow cure. we have need of more generous remedies than what have yet been made use of in our distemper . it is neither declarations of indulgence , nor acts of comprehension , such as have yet been practised or projected amongst us , that can do the work. the first will but palliate , the second encrease our evil. absolute liberty , iust and true liberty , equal and impartial liberty , is the thing that we stand in need of . now tho this has indeed been much talked of , i doubt it has not been much understood ; i am sure not at all practised , either by our governours towards the people in general , or by any dissenting parties of the people towards one another . i cannot therefore but hope that this discourse , which treats of that subject , however briefly , yet more exactly than any we have yet seen , demonstrating both the equitableness and practicableness of the thing , will be esteemed highly seasonable , by all men that have souls large enough to prefer the true interest of the publick before that of a party . it is for the use of such as are already so spirited , or to inspire that spirit into those that are not , that i have translated it into our language . but the thing it self is so short , that it will not bear a longer preface . i leave it therefore to the consideration of my countrymen , and heartily wish they may make the use of it that it appears to be designed for . a letter concerning toleration . honoured sir , since you are pleased to inquire what are my thoughts about the mutual toleration of christians in their different professions of religion , i must needs answer you freely , that i esteem that toleration to be the chief characteristical mark of the true church . for whatsoever some people boast of the antiquity of places and names , or of the pomp of their outward worship ; others , of the reformation of their discipline ; all , of the orthodoxy of their faith ; ( for every one is orthodox to himself : ) these things , and all others of this nature , are much rather marks of men striving for power and empire over one another , than of the church of christ. let any one have never so true a claim to all these things , yet if he be destitute of charity , meekness , and good-will in general towards all mankind , even to those that are not christians , he is certainly yet short of being a true christian himself . the kings of the gentiles exercise lordship over them , said our saviour to his disciples , but ye shall not be so . the business of true religion is quite another thing . it is not instituted in order to the erecting of an external pomp , nor to the obtaining of ecclesiastical dominion , nor to the exercising of compulsive force ; but to the regulating of mens lives according to the rules of vertue and piety . whosoever will lift himself under the banner of christ , must in the first place , and above all things , make war upon his own lusts and vices . it is in vain for any man to usurp the name of christian , without holiness of life , purity of manners , and benignity and meekness of spirit . let every one that nameth the name of christ , depart from iniquity . thou , when thou art converted , strengthen thy brethren , said our lord to peter . it would indeed be very hard for one that appears careless about his own salvation , to persuade me that he were extreamly concern'd for mine . for it is impossible that those should sincerely and heartily apply themselves to make other people christians , who have not really embraced the christian religion in their own hearts . if the gospel and the apostles may be credited , no man can be a christian without charity , and without that faith which works , not by force , but by love. now i appeal to the consciences of those that persecute , torment , destroy , and kill other men upon pretence of religion , whether they do it out of friendship and kindness towards them , or no : and i shall then indeed , and not till then , believe they do so , when i shall see those fiery zealots correcting , in the same manner , their friends and familiar acquaintance , for the manifest sins they commit against the precepts of the gospel ; when i shall see them prosecute with fire and sword the members of their own communion that are tainted with enormous vices , and without amendment are in danger of eternal perdition ; and when i shall see them thus express their love and desire of the salvation of their souls , by the infliction of torments , and exercise of all manner of cruelties . for if it be out of a principle of charity , as they pretend , and love to mens souls , that they deprive them of their estates , maim them with corporal punishments , starve and torment them in noisom prisons , and in the end even take away their lives ; i say , if all this be done meerly to make men christians , and procure their salvation , why then do they suffer whoredom , fraud , malice , and such like enormities , which ( according to the apostle ) manifestly rellish of heathenish corruption , to predominate so much and abound amongst their flocks and people ? these , and such like things , are certainly more contrary to the glory of god , to the purity of the church , and to the salvation of souls , than any conscientious dissent from ecclesiastical decisions , or separation from publick worship , whilst accompanied with innocency of life . why then does this burning zeal for god , for the church , and for the salvation of souls ; burning , i say , literally , with fire and faggot ; pass by those moral vices and wickednesses , without any chastisement , which are acknowledged by all men to be diametrically opposite to the profession of christianity ; and bend all its nerves either to the introducing of ceremonies , or to the establishment of opinions , which for the most part are about nice and intricate matters , that exceed the capacity of ordinary understandings ? which of the parties contending about these things is in the right , which of them is guilty of schism or heresie , whether those that domineer or those that suffer , will then at last be manifest , when the cause of their separation comes to be judged of . he certainly that follows christ , embraces his doctrine , and bears his yoke , tho' he forsake both father and mother , separate from the publick assemblies and ceremonies of his country , or whomsoever , or whatsoever else he relinquishes , will not then be judged an heretick . now , tho' the divisions that are amongst sects should be allowed to be never so obstructive of the salvation of souls ; yet nevertheless adultery , fornication , vncleanness , lasciviousness , idolatry , and such like things , cannot be denied to be works of the flesh ; concerning which the apostle has expresly declared , that they who do them shall not inherit the kingdom of god. whosoever therefore is sincerely sollicitous about the kingdom of god , and thinks it his duty to endeavour the enlargement of it amongst men , ought to apply himself with no less care and industry to the rooting out of these immoralities , than to the extirpation of sects . but if any one do otherwise , and whilst he is cruel and implacable towards those that differ from him in opinion , he be indulgent to such iniquities and immoralities as are unbecoming the name of a christian , let such a one talk never so much of the church , he plainly demonstrates by his actions , that 't is another kingdom he aims at , and not the advancement of the kingdom of god. that any man should think fit to cause another man , whose salvation he heartily desires , to expire in torments , and that even in an unconverted estate , would , i confess , seem very strange to me , and , i think , to any other also . but no body , surely , will ever believe that such a carriage can proceed from charity , love , or good-will . if any one maintain that men ought to be compelled by fire and sword to profess certain doctrines , and conform to this or that exteriour worship , without any regard had unto their morals ; if any one endeavour to convert those that are erroneous unto the faith , by forcing them to profess things that they do not believe , and allowing them to practise things that the gospel does not permit ; it cannot be doubted indeed but such a one is desirous to have a numerous assembly joyned in the same profession with himself ; but that he principally intends by those means to compose a truly christian church , is altogether incredible . it is not therefore to be wondred at , if those who do not really contend for the advancement of the true religion , and of the church of christ , make use of arms that do not belong to the christian warfare . if , like the captain of our salvation , they sincerely desired the good of souls , they would tread in the steps , and follow the perfect example of that prince of peace , who sent out his soldiers to the subduing of nations , and gathering them into his church , not armed with the sword , or other instruments of force , but prepared with the gospel of peace , and with the exemplary holiness of their conversation . this was his method . tho' if infidels were to be converted by force , if those that are either blind or obstinate were to be drawn off from their errors by armed soldiers , we know very well that it was much more easie for him to do it with armies of heavenly legions , than for any son of the church , how potent soever , with all his dragoons . the toleration of those that differ from others in matters of religion , is so agreeable to the gospel of jesus christ , and to the genuine reason of mankind , that it seems monstrous for men to be so blind , as not to perceive the necessity and advantage of it , in so clear a light. i will not here tax the pride and ambition of some , the passion and uncharitable zeal of others . these are faults from which humane affairs can perhaps scarce ever be perfectly freed ; but yet such as no body will bear the plain imputation of , without covering them with some specious colour ; and so pretend to commendation , whilst they are carried away by their own irregular passions . but however , that some may not colour their spirit of persecution and unchristian cruelty with a pretence of care of the publick weal , and observation of the laws ; and that others , under pretence of religion , may not seek impunity for their libertinism and licentiousness ; in a word , that none may impose either upon himself or others , by the pretences of loyalty and obedience to the prince , or of tenderness and sincerity in the worship of god ; i esteem it above all things necessary to distinguish exactly the business of civil government from that of religion , and to settle the just bounds that lie between the one and the other . if this be not done , there can be no end put to the controversies that will be always arising , between those that have , or at least pretend to have , on the one side , a concernment for the interest of mens souls , and on the other side , a care of the commonwealth . the commonwealth seems to me to be a society of men constituted only for the procuring , preserving , and advancing of their own civil interests . civil interests i call life , liberty , health , and indolency of body ; and the possession of outward things , such as money , lands , houses , furniture , and the like . it is the duty of the civil magistrate , by the impartial execution of equal laws , to secure unto all the people in general , and to every one of his subjects in particular , the just possession of these things belonging to this life . if any one presume to violate the laws of publick justice and equity , established for the preservation of those things , his presumption is to be check'd by the fear of punishment , consisting of the deprivation or diminution of those civil interests , or goods , which otherwise he might and ought to enjoy . but seeing no man does willingly suffer himself to be punished by the deprivation of any part of his goods , and much less of his liberty or life , therefore is the magistrate armed with the force and strength of all his subjects , in order to the punishment of those that violate any other man's rights . now that the whole jurisdiction of the magistrate reaches only to these civil concernments ; and that all civil power , right and dominion , is bounded and confined to the only care of promoting these things ; and that it neither can nor ought in any manner to be extended to the salvation of souls , these following considerations seem unto me abundantly to demonstrate . first , because the care of souls is not committed to the civil magistrate , any more than to other men. it is not committed unto him , i say , by god ; because it appears not that god has ever given any such authority to one man over another , as to compell any one to his religion . nor can any such power be vested in the magistrate by the consent of the people ; because no man can so far abandon the care of his own salvation , as blindly to leave it to the choice of any other , whether prince or subject , to prescribe to him what faith or worship he shall embrace . for no man can , if he would , conform his faith to the dictates of another . all the life and power of true religion consists in the inward and full perswasion of the mind ; and faith is not faith without believing . whatever profession we make , to whatever outward worship we conform , if we are not fully satisfied in our own mind that the one is true , and the other well pleasing unto god , such profession and such practice , far from being any furtherance , are indeed great obstacles to our salvation . for in this manner , instead of expiating other sins by the exercise of religion , i say in offering thus unto god almighty such a worship as we esteem to be displeasing unto him , we add unto the number of our other sins , those also of hypocrisie , and contempt of his divine majesty . in the second place . the care of souls cannot belong to the civil magistrate , because his power consists only in outward force ; but true and saving religion consists in the inward perswasion of the mind , without which nothing can be acceptable to god. and such is the nature of the understanding , that it cannot be compell'd to the belief of any thing by outward force . confiscation of estate , imprisonment , torments , nothing of that nature can have any such efficacy as to make men change the inward judgment that they have framed of things . it may indeed be alledged , that the magistrate may make use of arguments , and thereby draw the heterodox into the way of truth , and procure their salvation . i grant it ; but this is common to him with other men. in teaching , instructing , and redressing the erroneous by reason , he may certainly do what becomes any good man to do . magistracy does not oblige him to put of either humanity or christianity . but it is one thing to perswade , another to command ; one thing to press with arguments , another with penalties . this civil power alone has a right to do ; to the other good-will is authority enough . every man has commission to admonish , exhort , convince another of error , and by reasoning to draw him into truth : but to give laws , receive obedience , and compel with the sword , belongs to none but the magistrate . and upon this ground i affirm , that the magistrate's power extends not to the establishing of any articles of faith , or forms of worship , by the force of his laws . for laws are of no force at all without penalties , and penalties in this case are absolutely impertinent ; because they are not proper to convince the mind . neither the profession of any articles of faith , nor the conformity to any outward form of worship ( as has already been said ) can be available to the salvation of souls , unless the truth of the one , and the acceptableness of the other unto god , be thoroughly believed by those that so profess and practise . but penalties are no ways capable to produce such belief . it is only light and evidence that can work a change in mens opinions ; which light can in no manner proceed from corporal sufferings , or any other outward penalties . in the third place . the care of the salvation of mens souls cannot belong to the magistrate ; because , though the rigour of laws and the force of penalties were capable to convince and change mens minds , yet would not that help at all to the salvation of their souls . for there being but one truth , one way to heaven ; what hopes is there that more men would be led into it , if they had no rule but the religion of the court , and were put under a necessity to quit the light of their own reason , and oppose the dictates of their own consciences , and blindly to resign up themselves to the will of their governors , and to the religion , which either ignorance , ambition , or superstition had chanced to establish in the countries where they were born ? in the variety and contradiction of opinions in religion , wherein the princes of the world are as much divided as in their secular interests , the narrow way would be much straitned ; one country alone would be in the right , and all the rest of the world put under an obligation of following their princes in the ways that lead to destruction ; and that which heightens the absurdity , and very ill suits the notion of a deity , men would owe their eternal happiness or misery to the places of their nativity . these considerations , to omit many others that might have been urged to the same purpose , seem unto me sufficient to conclude that all the power of civil government relates only to mens civil interests , is confined to the care of the things of this world , and hath nothing to do with the world to come . let us now consider what a church is . a church then i take to be a voluntary society of men , joining themselves together of their own accord , in order to the publick worshipping of god , in such a manner as they judge acceptable to him , and effectual to the salvation of their souls . i say it is a free and voluntary society . no body is born a member of any church ; otherwise the religion of parents would descend unto children , by the same right of inheritance as their temporal estates , and every one would hold his faith by the same tenure he does his lands ; than which nothing can be imagined more absurd . thus therefore that matter stands . no man by nature is bound unto any particular church or sect , but every one joins himself voluntarily to that society in which he believes he has found that profession and worship which is truly acceptable to god. the hopes of salvation , as it was the only cause of his entrance into that communion , so it can be the only reason of his stay there . for if afterwards he discover any thing either erroneous in the doctrine , or incongruous in the worship of that society to which he has join'd himself , why should it not be as free for him to go out as it was to enter ? no member of a religious society can be tied with any other bonds but what proceed from the certain expectation of eternal life . a church then is a society of members voluntarily uniting to this end . it follows now that we consider what is the power of this church , and unto what laws it is subject . forasmuch as no society , how free soever , or upon whatsoever slight occasion instituted , ( whether of philophers for learning , of merchants for commerce , or of men of leisure for mutual conversation and discourse , ) no church or company , i say , can in the least subsist and hold together , but will presently dissolve and break to pieces , unless it be regulated by some laws , and the members all consent to observe some order . place , and time of meeting must be agreed on ; rules for admitting and excluding members must be establisht ; distinction of officers , and putting things into a regular course , and such like , cannot be omitted . but since the joyning together of several members into this church-society , as has already been demonstrated , is absolutely free and spontaneous , it necessarily follows , that the right of making its laws can belong to none but the society it self , or at least ( which is the same thing ) to those whom the society by common consent has authorised thereunto . some perhaps may object , that no such society can be said to be a true church , unless it have in it a bishop , or presbyter , with ruling authority derived from the very apostles , and continued down unto the present times by an uninterrupted succession . to these i answer . in the first place , let them shew me the edict by which christ has imposed that law upon his church . and let not any man think me impertinent if , in a thing of this consequence , i require that the terms of that edict be very express and positive . for the promise he has made us , that wheresoever two or three are gathered together in his name , he will be in the midst of them , seems to imply the contrary . whether such an assembly want any thing necessary to a true church , pray do you consider . certain i am , that nothing can be there wanting unto the salvation of souls ; which is sufficient to our purpose . next , pray observe how great have always been the divisions amongst even those who lay so much stress upon the divine institution , and continued succession of a certain order of rulers in the church . now their very dissention unavoidably puts us upon a necessity of deliberating , and consequently allows a liberty of choosing that , which upon consideration , we prefer . and in the last place , i consent that these men have a ruler of their church , established by such a long series of succession as they judge necessary ; provided i may have liberty at the same time to join my self to that society , in which i am perswaded those things are to be found which are necessary to the salvation of my soul. in this manner ecclesiastical liberty will be preserved on all sides , and no man will have a legislator imposed upon him , but whom himself has chosen . but since men are so sollicitous about the true church , i would only ask them , here by the way , if it be not more agreeable to the church of christ , to make the conditions of her communion consist in such things , and such things only , as the holy spirit has in the holy scriptures declared , in express words , to be necessary to salvation ; i ask , i say , whether this be not more agreeable to the church of christ , than for men to impose their own inventions and interpretations upon others , as if they were of divine authority , and to establish by ecclesiastical laws , as absolutely necessary to the profession of christianity , such things as the holy scriptures do either not mention , or at least not expresly command . whosoever requires those things in order to ecclesiastical communion , which christ does not require in order to life eternal , he may perhaps indeed constitute a society accommodated to his own opinion and his own advantage , but how that can be called the church of christ , which is established upon laws that are not his , and which excludes such persons from its communion as he will one day receive into the kingdom of heaven , i understand not . but this being not a proper place to enquire into the marks of the true church , i will only mind those that contend so earnestly for the decrees of their own society , and that cry out continually the church , the church , with as much noise , and perhaps upon the same principle , as the ephesian silversmiths did for their diana ; this , i say , i desire to mind them of , that the gospel frequently declares that the true disciples of christ must suffer persecution ; but that the church of christ should persecute others , and force others by fire and sword , to embrace her faith and doctrine , i could never yet find in any of the books of the new testament . the end of a religious society ( as has already been said ) is the publick worship of god , and by means thereof the acquisition of eternal life . all discipline ought therefore to tend to that end , and all ecclesiastical laws to be thereunto confined . nothing ought , nor can be transacted in this society , relating to the possession of civil and worldly goods . no force is here to be made use of , upon any occasion whatsoever : for force belongs wholly to the civil magistrate , and the possession of all outward goods is subject to his jurisdiction . but it may be asked , by what means then shall ecclesiastical laws be established , if they must be thus destitute of all compulsive power ? i answer , they must be established by means suitable to the nature of such things , whereof the external profession and observation , if not proceeding from a thorow conviction and approbation of the mind , is altogether useless and unprofitable . the arms by which the members of this society are to be kept within their duty , are exhortations , admonitions , and advices . if by these means the offenders will not be reclaimed , and the erroneous convinced , there remains nothing farther to be done , but that such stubborn and obstinate persons , who give no ground to hope for their reformation , should be cast out and separated from the society . this is the last and utmost force of ecclesiastical authority : no other punishment can thereby be inflicted , than that , the relation ceasing between the body and the member which is cut off , the person so condemned ceases to be a part of that church . these things being thus determined , let us inquire in the next place , how far the duty of toleration extends , and what is required from every one by it . and first , i hold , that no church is bound by the duty of toleration to retain any such person in her bosom , as , after admonition , continues obstinately to offend against the laws of the society . for these being the condition of communion , and the bond of the society , if the breach of them were permitted without any animadversion , the society would immediately be thereby dissolved . but nevertheless , in all such cases care is to be taken that the sentence of excommunication , and the execution thereof , carry with it no rough usage , of word or action , whereby the ejected person may any wise be damnified in body or estate . for all force ( as has often been said ) belongs only to the magistrate , nor ought any private persons , at any time , to use force ; unless it be in self-defence against unjust violence . excommunication neither does , nor can , deprive the excommunicated person of any of those civil goods that he formerly possessed . all those things belong to the civil government , and are under the magistrate's protection . the whole force of excommunication consists only in this , that , the resolution of the society in that respect being declared , the union that was between the body and some member comes thereby to be dissolved ; and that relation ceasing , the participation of some certain things , which the society communicated to its members , and unto which no man has any civil right , comes also to cease . for there is no civil injury done unto the excommunicated person , by the church-minister's refusing him that bread and wine , in the celebration of the lord's supper , which was not bought with his , but other mens money . secondly , no private person has any right , in any manner , to prejudice another person in his civil enjoyments , because he is of another church or religion . all the rights and franchises that belong to him as a man , or as a denison , are inviolably to be preserved to him . these are not the business of religion . no violence nor injury is to be offered him , whether he be christian or pagan . nay , we must not content our selves with the narrow measures of bare justice : charity , bounty , and liberality must be added to it . this the gospel enjoyns , this reason directs , and this that natural fellowship we are born into requires of us . if any man err from the right way , it is his own misfortune , no injury to thee : nor therefore art thou to punish him in the things of this life , because thou supposest he will be miserable in that which is to come . what i say concerning the mutual toleration of private persons differing from one another in religion , i understand also of particular churches ; which stand as it were in the same relation to each other as private persons among themselves , nor has any one of them any manner of jurisdiction over any other , no not even when the civil magistrate ( as it sometimes happens ) comes to be of this or the other communion . for the civil government can give no new right to the church , nor the church to the civil government . so that whether the magistrate joyn himself to any church , or separate from it , the church remains always as it was before , a free and voluntary society . it neither acquires the power of the sword by the magistrate's coming to it , nor does it lose the right of instruction and excommunication by his going from it . this is the fundamental and immutable right of a spontaneous society , that it has power to remove any of its members who transgress the rules of its institution : but it cannot , by the accession of any new members , acquire any right of jurisdiction over those that are not joined with it . and therefore peace , equity , and friendship , are always mutually to be observed by particular churches , in the same manner as by private persons , without any pretence of superiority or jurisdiction over one another . that the thing may be made yet clearer by an example ; let us suppose two churches , the one of arminians , the other of calvinists , residing in the city of constantinople . will any one say , that either of these churches has right to deprive the members of the other of their estates and liberty , ( as we see practised elsewhere ) because of their differing from it in some doctrines or ceremonies ; whilst the turks in the mean while silently stand by , and laugh to see with what inhumane cruelty christians thus rage against christians ? but if one of these churches hath this power of treating the other ill , i ask which of them it is to whom that power belongs , and by what right ? it will be answered , undoubtedly , that it is the orthodox church which has the right of authority over the erroneous or heretical . this is , in great and specious words , to say just nothing at all . for every church is orthodox to it self ; to others , erroneous or heretical . for whatsoever any church believes , it believes to be true ; and the contrary unto those things , it pronounces to be error . so that the controversie between these churches about the truth of their doctrines , and the purity of their worship , is on both sides equal ; nor is there any judge , either at constantinople , or elsewhere upon earth , by whose sentence it can be determined . the decision of that question belongs only to the supream judge of all men , to whom also alone belongs the punishment of the erroneous . in the mean while , let those men consider how hainously they sin , who , adding injustice , if not to their error yet certainly to their pride , do rashly and arrogantly take upon them to misuse the servants of another master , who are not at all accountable to them . nay , further : if it could be manifest which of these two dissenting churches were in the right , there would not accrue thereby unto the orthodox any right of destroying the other . for churches have neither any jurisdiction in worldly matters , nor are fire and sword any proper instruments wherewith to convince mens minds of error , and inform them of the truth . let us suppose , nevertheless , that the civil magistrate inclined to favour one of them , and to put his sword into their hands , that ( by his consent ) they might chastise the dissenters as they pleased . will any man say , that any right can be derived unto a christian church , over its brethren , from a turkish emperor ? an infidel , who has himself no authority to punish christians for the articles of their faith , cannot confer such an authority upon any society of christians , nor give unto them a right which he has not himself . this would be the case at constantinople . and the reason of the thing is the same in any christian kingdom . the civil power is the same in every place : nor can that power , in the hands of a christian prince , confer any greater authority upon the church , than in the hands of a heathen ; which is to say , just none at all . nevertheless , it is worthy to be observed , and lamented , that the most violent of these defenders of the truth , the opposers of errors , the exclaimers against schism , do hardly ever let loose this their zeal for god , with which they are so warmed and inflamed , unless where they have the civil magistrate on their side . but so soon as ever court-favour has given them the better end of the staff , and they begin to feel themselves the stronger , then presently peace and charity are to be laid aside : otherwise , they are religiously to be observed . where they have not the power to carry on persecution , and to become masters , there they desire to live upon fair terms , and preach up toleration . when they are not strengthned with the civil power , then they can bear most patiently , and unmovedly , the contagion of idolatry , superstition , and heresie , in their neighbourhood ; of which , in other occasions , the interest of religion makes them to be extreamly apprehensive . they do not forwardly attack those errors which are in fashion at court , or are countenanced by the government . here they can be content to spare their arguments : which yet ( with their leave ) is the only right method of propagating truth , which has no such way of prevailing , as when strong arguments and good reason , are joined with the softness of civility and good usage . no body therefore , in fine , neither single persons , nor churches , nay , nor even commonwealths , have any just title to invade the civil rights and worldly goods of each other , upon pretence of religion . those that are of another opinion , would do well to consider with themselves how pernicious a seed of discord and war , how powerful a provocation to endless hatreds , rapines , and slaughters , they thereby furnish unto mankind . no peace and security , no not so much as common friendship , can ever be established or preserved amongst men , so long as this opinion prevails , that dominion is founded in grace , and that religion is to be propagated by force of arms. in the third place : let us see what the duty of toleration requires from those who are distinguished from the rest of mankind , ( from the laity , as they please to call us ) by some ecclesiastical character , and office ; whether they be bishops , priests , presbyters , ministers , or however else dignified or distinguished . it is not my business to inquire here into the original of the power or dignity of the clergy . this only i say , that whence-soever their authority be sprung , since it is ecclesiastical , it ought to be confined within the bounds of the church , nor can it in any manner be extended to civil affairs ; because the church it self is a thing absolutely separate and distinct from the commonwealth . the boundaries on both sides are fixed and immovable . he jumbles heaven and earth together , the things most remote and opposite , who mixes these two societies ; which are in their original , end , business , and in every thing , perfectly distinct , and infinitely different from each other . no man therefore , with whatsoever ecclesiastical office he be dignified , can deprive another man that is not of his church and faith , either of liberty , or of any part of his worldly goods , upon the account of that difference between them in religion . for whatsoever is not lawful to the whole church , cannot , by any ecclesiastical right , become lawful to any of its members . but this is not all . it is not enough that ecclesiastical men abstain from violence and rapine , and all manner of persecution . he that pretends to be a successor of the apostles , and takes upon him the office of teaching , is obliged also to admonish his hearers of the duties of peace , and good-will towards all men ; as well towards the erroneous as the orthodox ; towards those that differ from them in faith and worship , as well as towards those that agree with them therein : and he ought industriously to exhort all men , whether private persons or magistrates , ( if any such there be in his church ) to charity , meekness , and toleration ; and diligently endeavour to allay and temper all that heat , and unreasonable averseness of mind , which either any mans fiery zeal for his own sect , or the craft of others , has kindled against dissenters . i will not undertake to represent how happy and how great would be the fruit , both in church and state , if the pulpits every where sounded with this doctrine of peace and toleration ; lest i should seem to reflect too severely upon those men whose dignity i desire not to detract from , nor would have it diminished either by others or themselves . but this i say , that thus it ought to be . and if any one that professes himself to be a minister of the word of god , a preacher of the gospel of peace , teach otherwise , he either understands not , or neglects the business of his calling , and shall one day give account thereof unto the prince of peace . if christians are to be admonished that they abstain from all manner of revenge , even after repeated provocations and multiplied injuries , how much more ought they who suffer nothing , who have had no harm done them , forbear violence , and abstain from all manner of ill usage towards those from whom they have received none . this caution and temper they ought certainly to use towards those who mind only their own business , and are sollicitous for nothing but that ( whatever men think of them ) they may worship god in that manner which they are persuaded is acceptable to him , and in which they have the strongest hopes of eternal salvation . in private domestick affairs , in the management of estates , in the conservation of bodily health , every man may consider what suits his own conveniency , and follow what course he likes best . no man complains of the ill management of his neighbour's affairs . no man is angry with another for an error committed in sowing his land , or in marrying his daughter . no body corrects a spendthrift for consuming his substance in taverns . let any man pull down , or build , or make whatsoever expences he pleases , no body murmurs , no body controuls him ; he has his liberty . but if any man do not frequent the church , if he do not there conform his behaviour exactly to the accustomed ceremonies , or if he brings not his children to be initiated in the sacred mysteries of this or the other congregation , this immediately causes an uproar . the neighbourhood is filled with noise and clamour . every one is ready to be the avenger of so great a crime . and the zealots hardly have the patience to refrain from violence and rapine , so long till the cause be heard , and the poor man be , according to form , condemned to the loss of liberty , goods , or life . oh that our ecclesiastical orators , of every sect , would apply themselves with all the strength of arguments that they are able , to the confounding of mens errors ! but let them spare their persons . let them not supply their want of reasons with the instruments of force , which belong to another jurisdiction , and do ill become a churchman's hands . let them not call in the magistrate's authority to the aid of their eloquence , or learning ; lest , perhaps , whilst they pretend only love for the truth , this their intemperate zeal , breathing nothing but fire and sword , betray their ambition , and shew that what they desire is temporal dominion . for it will be very difficult to persuade men of sense , that he , who with dry eyes , and satisfaction of mind , can deliver his brother unto the executioner , to be burnt alive , does sincerely and heartily concern himself to save that brother from the flames of hell in the world to come . in the last place . let us now consider what is the magistrate's duty in the business of toleration : which certainly is very considerable . we have already proved , that the care of souls does not belong to the magistrate : not a magisterial care , i mean , ( if i may so call it ) which consists in prescribing by laws , and compelling by punishments . but a charitable care , which consists in teaching , admonishing , and persuading , cannot be denied unto any man. the care therefore of every man's soul belongs unto himself , and is to be left unto himself . but what if he neglect the care of his soul ? i answer , what if he neglect the care of his health , or of his estate , which things are nearlier related to the government of the magistrate than the other ? will the magistrate provide by an express law , that such an one shall not become poor or sick ? laws provide , as much as is possible , that the goods and health of subjects be not injured by the fraud or violence of others ; they do not guard them from the negligence or ill-husbandry of the possessors themselves . no man can be forced to be rich or healthful , whether he will or no. nay , god himself will not save men against their wills . let us suppose , however , that some prince were desirous to force his subjects to accumulate riches , or to preserve the health and strength of their bodies . shall it be provided by law , that they must consult none but roman physicians , and shall every one be bound to live according to their prescriptions ? what , shall no potion , no broth , be taken , but what is prepared either in the vatican , suppose , or in a geneva shop ? or , to make these subjects rich , shall they all be obliged by law to become merchants , or musicians ? or , shall every one turn victualler , or smith , because there are some that maintain their families plentifully , and grow rich in those professions ? but it may be said , there are a thousand ways to wealth , but one only way to heaven . 't is well said indeed , especially by those that plead for compelling men into this or the other way . for if there were several ways that lead thither , there would not be so much as a pretence left for compulsion . but now if i be marching on with my utmost vigour , in that way which , according to the sacred geography , leads streight to ierusalem ; why am i beaten and ill used by others , because , perhaps , i wear not buskins ; because my hair is not of the right cut ; because perhaps i have not been dip't in the right fashion ; because i eat flesh upon the road , or some other food which agrees with my stomach ; because i avoid certain by-ways , which seem unto me to lead into briars or precipices ; because amongst the several paths that are in the same road , i choose that to walk in which seems to be the streightest and cleanest ; because i avoid to keep company with some travellers that are less grave , and others that are more sowre that they ought to be ; or in fine , because i follow a guide that either is , or is not , clothed in white , and crowned with a miter ? certainly , if we consider right , we shall find that for the most part they are such frivolous things as these , that ( without any prejudice to religion or the salvation of souls , if not accompanied with superstition or hypocrisie ) might either be observed or omitted ; i say they are such like things as as these , which breed implacable enmities amongst christian brethren , who are all agreed in the substantial and truly fundamental part of religion . but let us grant unto these zealots , who condemn all things that are not of their mode , that from these circumstances arise different ends. what shall we conclude from thence ? there is only one of these which is the true way to eternal happiness . but in this great variety of ways that men follow , it is still doubted which is this right one . now neither the care of the commonwealth , nor the right of enacting laws , does discover this way that leads to heaven more certainly to the magistrate , than every private mans search and study discovers it unto himself . i have a weak body , sunk under a languishing disease , for which ( i suppose ) there is one only remedy , but that unknown . does it therefore belong unto the magistrate to prescribe me a remedy , because there is but one , and because it is unknown ? because there is but one way for me to escape death , will it therefore be safe for me to do whatsoever the magistrate ordains ? those things that every man ought sincerely to enquire into himself , and by meditation , study , search , and his own endeavours , attain the knowledge of , cannot be looked upon as the peculiar possession of any one sort of men. princes indeed are born superior unto other men in power , but in nature equal . neither the right , nor the art of ruling , does necessarily carry along with it the certain knowledge of other things ; and least of all of the true religion . for if it were so , how could it come to pass that the lords of the earth should differ so vastly as they do in religious matters ? but let us grant that it is probable the way to eternal life may be better known by a prince than by his subjects ; or at least , that in this incertitude of things , the safest and most commodious way for private persons is to follow his dictates . you will say , what then ? if he should bid you follow merchandise for your livelihood , would you decline that course for fear it should not succeed ? i answer : i would turn merchant upon the princes command , because in case i should have ill success in trade , he is abundantly able to make up my loss some other way . if it be true , as he pretends , that he desires i should thrive and grow rich , he can set me up again when unsuccessful voyages have broke me . but this is not the case , in the things that regard the life to come . if there i take a wrong course , if in that respect i am once undone , it is not in the magistrates power to repair my loss , to ease my suffering , nor to restore me in any measure , much less entirely , to a good estate . what security can be given for the kingdom of heaven ? perhaps some will say that they do not suppose this infallible judgment , that all men are bound to follow in the affairs of religion , to be in the civil magistrate , but in the church . what the church has determined , that the civil magistrate orders to be observed ; and he provides by his authority that no body shall either act or believe , in the business of religion , otherwise than the church teaches . so that the judgment of those things is in the church . the magistrate himself yields obedience thereunto , and requires the like obedience from others . i answer : who sees not how frequently the name of the church , which was so venerable in the time of the apostles , has been made use of to throw dust in peoples eyes , in following ages ? but however , in the present case it helps us not . the one only narrow way which leads to heaven is not better known to the magistrate than to private persons , and therefore i cannot safely take him for my guide , who may probably be as ignorant of the way as my self , and who certainly is less concerned for my salvation than i my self am . amongst so many kings of the iews , how many of them were there whom any israelite , thus blindly following , had not fall'n into idolatry , and thereby into destruction ? yet nevertheless , you bid me be of good courage , and tell me that all is now safe and secure , because the magistrate does not now enjoin the observance of his own decrees in matters of religion , but only the decrees of the church . of what church i beseech you ? of that certainly which likes him best . as if he that compells me by laws and penalties to enter into this or the other church , did not interpose his own judgment in the matter . what difference is there whether he lead me himself , or deliver me over to be led by others ? i depend both ways upon his will , and it is he that determines both ways of my eternal state. would an israelite , that had worshipped baal upon the command of his king , have been in any better condition , because some body had told him that the king ordered nothing in religion upon his own head , nor commanded any thing to be done by his subjects in divine worship , but what was approved by the counsel of priests , and declared to be of divine right by the doctors of their church ? if the religion of any church become therefore true and saving , because the head of that sect , the prelates and priests , and those of that tribe , do all of them , with all their might , extol and praise it ; what religion can ever be accounted erroneous , false and destructive ? i am doubtful concerning the doctrine of the socinians , i am suspicious of the way of worship practised by the papists , or lutherans ; will it be ever a jot the safer for me to join either unto the one or the other of those churches , upon the magistrates command , because he commands nothing in religion but by the authority and counsel of the doctors of that church ? but to speak the truth , we must acknowledge that the church ( if a convention of clergy-men , making canons , must be called by that name ) is for the most part more apt to be influenced by the court , than the court by the church . how the church was under the vicissitude of orthodox and arrian emperors is very well known . or if those things be too remote , our modern english history affords us fresh examples , in the reigns of henry the 8 th , edward the 6 th , mary , and elizabeth , how easily and smoothly the clergy changed their decrees , their articles of faith , their form of worship , every thing , according to the inclination of those kings and queens . yet were those kings and queens of such different minds , in point of religion , and enjoined thereupon such different things , that no man in his wits ( i had almost said none but an atheist ) will presume to say that any sincere and upright worshipper of god could , with a safe conscience , obey their several decrees . to conclude . it is the same thing whether a king that prescribes laws to another mans religion pretend to do it by his own judgment , or by the ecclesiastical authority and advice of others . the decisions of church-men , whose differences and disputes are sufficiently known , cannot be any founder , or safer than his : nor can all their suffrages joined together add any new strength unto the civil power . tho this also must be taken notice of , that princes seldom have any regard to the suffrages of ecclesiasticks that are not favourers of their own faith and way of worship . but after all , the principal consideration , and which absolutely determines this controversie , is this . although the magistrates opinion in religion be sound , and the way that he appoints be truly evangelical , yet if i be not thoroughly perswaded thereof in my own mind , there will be no safety for me in following it . no way whatsoever that i shall walk in , against the dictates of my conscience , will ever bring me to the mansions of the blessed . i may grow rich by an art that i take not delight in ; i may be cured of some disease by remedies that i have not faith in ; but i cannot be saved by a religion that i distrust , and by a worship that i abhor . it is in vain for an unbeliever to take up the outward shew of another mans profession . faith only , and inward sincerity , are the things that procure acceptance with god. the most likely and most approved remedy can have no effect upon the patient , if his stomach reject it as soon taken . and you will in vain cram a medicine down a sick mans throat , which his particular constitution will be sure to turn into poison . in a word . whatsoever may be doubtful in religion , yet this at least is certain , that no religion , which i believe not to be true , can be either true , or profitable unto me . in vain therefore do princes compel their subjects to come into their church-communion , under pretence of saving their souls . if they believe , they will come of their own accord ; if they believe not , their coming will nothing avail them . how great soever , in fine , may be the pretence of good-will , and charity , and concern for the salvation of mens souls , men cannot be forced to be saved whether they will or no. and therefore , when all is done , they must be left to their own consciences . having thus at length freed men from all dominion over one another in matters of religion , let us now consider what they are to do . all men know and acknowledge that god ought to be publickly worshipped . why otherwise do they compel one another unto the publick assemblies ? men therefore constituted in this liberty are to enter into some religious society , that they may meet together , not only for mutual edification , but to own to the world that they worship god , and offer unto his divine majesty such service as they themselves are not ashamed of , and such as they think not unworthy of him , nor unacceptable to him ; and finally that by the purity of doctrine , holiness of life , and decent form of worship , they may draw others unto the love of the true religion , and perform such other things in religion as cannot be done by each private man apart . these religious societies i call churches : and these i say the magistrate ought to tolerate . for the business of these assemblies of the people is nothing but what is lawful for every man in particular to take care of ; i mean the salvation of their souls : nor in this case is there any difference between the national church , and other separated congregations . but as in every church there are two things especially to be considered ; the outward form and rites of worship , and the doctrines and articles of faith ; these things must be handled each distinctly ; that so the whole matter of toleration may the more clearly be understood . concerning outward worship , i say ( in the first place ) that the magistrate has no power to enforce by law , either in his own church , or much less in another , the use of any rites or ceremonies whatsoever in the worship of god. and this , not only because these churches are free societies , but because whatsoever is practised in the worship of god , is only so far justifiable as it is believed by those that practise it to be acceptable unto him . whatsoever is not done with that assurance of faith , is neither well in it self , nor can it be acceptable to god. to impose such things therefore upon any people , contrary to their own judgment , is in effect to command them to offend god ; which , considering that the end of all religion is to please him , and that liberty is essentially necessary to that end , appears to be absurd beyond expression . but perhaps it may be concluded from hence , that i deny unto the magistrate all manner of power about indifferent things ; which if it be not granted , the whole subject-matter of law-making is taken away . no , i readily grant that indifferent things , and perhaps none but such , are subjected to the legislative power . but it does not therefore follow , that the magistrate may ordain whatsoever he pleases concerning any thing that is indifferent . the publick good is the rule and measure of all law-making . if a thing be not useful to the common-wealth , tho it it be never so indifferent , it may not presently be established by law. and further : things never so indifferent in their own nature , when they are brought into the church and worship of god , are removed out of the reach of the magistrate's jurisdiction ; because in that use they have no connection at all with civil affairs . the only business of the church is the salvation of souls : and it no ways concerns the common-wealth , or any member of it , that this , or the other ceremony be there made use of . neither the use , nor the omission of any ceremonies , in those religious assemblies , does either advantage or prejudice the life , liberty , or estate of any man. for example : let it be granted , that the washing of an infant with water is in it self an indifferent thing . let it be granted also , that if the magistrate understand such washing to be profitable to the curing or preventing of any disease that children are subject unto , and esteem the matter weighty enough to be taken care of by a law , in that case he may order it to be done . but will any one therefore say , that a magistrate has the same right to ordain , by law , that all children shall be baptized by priests , in the sacred font , in order to the purification of their souls ? the extream difference of these two cases is visible to every one at first sight . or let us apply the last case to the child of a iew , and the thing speaks it self . for what hinders but a christian magistrate may have subjects that are iews ? now if we acknowledge that such an injury may not be done unto a iew , as to compel him , against his own opinion , to practice in his religion a thing that is in its nature indifferent ; how can we maintain that any thing of this kind may be done to a christian ? again : things in their own nature indifferent cannot , by any human authority , be made any part of the worship of god ; for this very reason ; because they are indifferent . for since indifferent things are not capable , by any virtue of their own , to propitiate the deity ; no human power or authority can confer on them so much dignity and excellency as to enable them to do it . in the common affairs of life , that use of indifferent things which god has not forbidden , is free and lawful : and therefore in those things human authority has place . but it is not so in matters of religion . things indifferent are not otherwise lawful in the worship of god than as they are instituted by god himself ; and as he , by some positive command , has ordain'd them to be made a part of that worship which he will vouchsafe to accept of at the hands of poor sinful men . nor when an incensed deity shall ask us , who has required these , or such like things at our hands ? will it be enough to answer him , that the magistrate commanded them . if civil jurisdiction extended thus far , what might not lawfully be introduced into religion ? what hodge-podge of ceremonies , what superstitious inventions , built upon the magistrate's authority , might not ( against conscience ) be imposed upon the worshippers of god ? for the greatest part of these ceremonies and superstions consists in the religious use of such things as are in their own nature indifferent : nor are they sinful upon any other account than because god is not the author of them . the sprinkling of water , and the use of bread and wine , are both in their own nature , and in the ordinary occasions of life , altogether indifferent . will any man therefore say that these things could have been introduced into religion , and made a part of divine worship , if not by divine institution ? if any human authority or civil power could have done this , why might it not also injoyn the eating of fish , and drinking of ale , in the holy banquet , as a part of divine worship ? why not the sprinkling of the blood of beasts in churches , and expiations by water or fire , and abundance more of this kind ? but these things , how indifferent soever they be in common uses , when they come to be annexed unto divine worship , without divine authority , they are as abominable to god , as the sacrifice of a dog. and why a dog so abominable ? what difference is there between a dog and a goat , in respect of the divine nature , equally and infinitely distant from all affinity with matter ; unless it be that god required the use of the one in his worship , and not of the other ? we see therefore that indifferent things how much soever they be under the power of the civil magistrate , yet cannot upon that pretence be introduced into religion , and imposed upon religious assemblies ; because in the worship of god they wholly cease to be indifferent . he that worships god does it with design to please him and procure his favour . but that cannot be done by him , who , upon the command of another , offers unto god that which he knows will be displeasing to him , because not commanded by himself . this is not to please god , or appease his wrath , but willingly and knowingly to provoke him , by a manifest contempt ; which is a thing absolutely repugnant to the nature and end of worship . but it will here be asked : if nothing belonging to divine worship be left to human discretion , how is it then that churches themselves have the power of ordering any thing about the time and place of worship , and the like ? to this i answer ; that in religious worship we must distinguish between what is part of the worship it self , and what is but a circumstance . that is a part of the worship which is believed to be appointed by god , and to be well-pleasing to him ; and therefore that is necessary . circumstances are such things which , tho' in general they cannot be separated from worship , yet the particular instances or modifications of them are not determined ; and therefore they are indifferent . of this sort are the time and place of worship , the habit and posture of him that worships . these are circumstances , and perfectly indifferent , where god has not given any express command about them . for example : amongst the iews , the time and place of their worship , and the habits of those that officiated in it , were not meer circumstances , but a part of the worship it self ; in which if any thing were defective , or different from the institution , they could not hope that it would be accepted by god. but these , to christians under the liberty of the gospel , are meer circumstances of worship , which the prudence of every church may bring into such use as shall be judged most subservient to the end of order , decency , and edification . but , even under the gospel , those who believe the first , or the seventh day to be set apart by god , and consecrated still to his worship , to them that portion of time is not a simple circumstance , but a real part of divine worship , which can neither be changed nor neglected . in the next place : as the magistrate has no power to impose by his laws , the use of any rites and ceremonies in any church , so neither has he any power to forbid the use of such rites and ceremonies as are already received , approved , and practised by any church : because if he did so , he would destroy the church it self ; the end of whose institution is only to worship god with freedom , after its own manner . you will say , by this rule , if some congregations should have a mind to sacrifice infants , or ( as the primitive christians were falsely accused ) lustfully pollute themselves in promiscuous uncleanness , or practise any other such heinous enormities , is the magistrate obliged to tolerate them , because they are committed in a religious assembly ? i answer , no. these things are not lawful in the ordinary course of life , nor in any private house ; and therefore neither are they so in the worship of god , or in any religious meeting . but indeed if any people congregated upon account of religion , should be desirous to sacrifice a calf , i deny that that ought to be prohibited by a law. melibaeus , whose calf it is , may lawfully kill his calf at home , and burn any part of it that he thinks fit . for no injury is thereby done to any one , no prejudice to another mans goods . and for the same reason he may kill his calf also in a religious meeting . whether the doing so be well-pleasing to god or no , it is their part to consider that do it . the part of the magistrate is only to take care that the commonwealth receive no prejudice , and that there be no injury done to any man , either in life or estate . and thus what may be spent on a feast , may be spent on a sacrifice . but if peradventure such were the state of things , that the interest of the commonwealth required all slaughter of beasts should be forborn for some while , in order to the increasing of the stock of cattel , that had been destroyed by some extraordinary murrain ; who sees not that the magistrate , in such a case , may forbid all his subjects to kill any calves for any use whatsoever ? only 't is to be observed , that in this case the law is not made about a religious , but a political matter : nor is the sacrifice , but the slaughter of calves thereby prohibited . by this we see what difference there is between the church and the commonwealth . whatsoever is lawful in the commonwealth , cannot be prohibited by the magistrate in the church . whatsoever is permitted unto any of his subjects for their ordinary use , neither can nor ought to be forbidden by him to any sect of people for their religious uses . if any man may lawfully take bread or wine , either sitting or kneeling , in his own house , the law ought not to abridge him of the same liberty in his religious worship ; tho' in the church the use of bread and wine be very different , and be there applied to the mysteries of faith , and rites of divine worship . but those things that are prejudicial to the commonweal of a people in their ordinary use , and are therefore forbidden by laws , those things ought not to be permitted to churches in their sacred rites . onely the magistrate ought always to be very careful that he do not misuse his authority , to the oppression of any church , under pretence of publick good. it may be said ; what if a church be idolatrous , is that also to be tolerated by the magistrate ? i answer . what power can be given to the magistrate for the suppression of an idolatrous church , which may not , in time and place , be made use of to the ruine of an orthodox one ? for it must be remembred that the civil power is the same every where , and the religion of every prince is orthodox to himself . if therefore such a power be granted unto the civil magistrate in spirituals , as that at geneva ( for example ) he may extirpate , by violence and blood , the religion which is there reputed idolatrous ; by the same rule another magistrate , in some neighbouring country , may oppress the reformed religion ; and , in india , the christian. the civil power can either change every thing in religion , according to the prince's pleasure , or it can change nothing . if it be once permitted to introduce any thing into religion , by the means of laws and penalties , there can be no bounds put to it ; but it will in the same manner be lawful to alter every thing , according to that rule of truth which the magistrate has framed unto himself . no man whatsoever ought therefore to be deprived of his terrestrial enjoyments , upon account of his religion . not even americans , subjected unto a christian prince , are to be punished either in body or goods , for not imbracing our faith and worship . if they are perswaded that they please god in observing the rites of their own country , and that they shall obtain happiness by that means , they are to be left unto god and themselves . let us trace this matter to the bottom . thus it is . an inconsiderable and weak number of christians , destitute of every thing , arrive in a pagan country : these foreigners beseech the inhabitants , by the bowels of humanity , that they would succour them with the necessaries of life : those necessaries are given them ; habitations are granted ; and they all joyn together , and grow up into one body of people . the christian religion by this means takes root in that countrey , and spreads it self ; but does not suddenly grow the strongest . while things are in this condition , peace , friendship , faith and equal justice , are preserved amongst them . at length the magistrate becomes a christian , and by that means their party becomes the most powerful . then immediately all compacts are to be broken , all civil rights to be violated , that idolatry may be extirpated : and unless these innocent pagans , strict observers of the rules of equity and the law of nature , and no ways offending against the laws of the society , i say unless they will forsake their ancient religion , and embrace a new and strange one , they are to be turned out of the lands and possessions of their forefathers , and perhaps deprived of life it self . then at last it appears what zeal for the church , joyned with the desire of dominion , is capable to produce ; and how easily the pretence of religion , and of the care of souls , serves for a cloak to covetousness , rapine , and ambition . now whosoever maintains that idolatry is to be rooted out of any place by laws , punishments , fire , and sword , may apply this story to himself . for the reason of the thing is equal , both in america and europe . and neither pagans there , nor any dissenting christians here , can with any right be deprived of their worldly goods , by the predominating faction of a court-church : nor are any civil rights to be either changed or violated upon account of religion in one place more than another . but idolatry ( say some ) is a sin , and therefore not to be tolerated . if they said it were therefore to be avoided , the inference were good . but it does not follow , that because it is a sin it ought therefore to be punished by the magistrate . for it does not belong unto the magistrate to make use of his sword in punishing every thing , indifferently , that he takes to be a sin against god. covetousness , uncharitableness , idleness , and many other things are sins , by the consent of all men , which yet no man ever said were to be punished by the magistrate . the reason is , because they are not prejudicial to other mens rights , nor do they break the publick peace of societies . nay , even the sins of lying and perjury , are no where punishable by laws ; unless in certain cases , in which the real turpitude of the thing , and the offence against god , are not considered , but only the injury done unto mens neighbours , and to the commonwealth . and what if in another country , to a mahumetan or a pagan prince , the christian religion seem false and offensive to god ; may not the christians for the same reason , and after the same manner , be extirpated there ? but it may be urged further , that by the law of moses idolaters were to be rooted out . true indeed , by the law of moses . but that is not obligatory to us christians . no body pretends that every thing , generally , enjoyned by the law of moses , ought to be practised by christians . but there is nothing more frivolous than that common distinction of moral , judicial , and ceremonial law , which men ordinarily make use of . for no positive law whatsoever can oblige any people but those to whom it is given . hear o israel ; sufficienly restrains the obligation of the law of moses only to that people . and this consideration alone is answer enough unto those that urge the authority of the law of moses ; for the inflicting of capital punishments upon idolaters . but however , i will examine this argument a little more particularly . the case of idolaters , in respect of the iewish commonwealth , falls under a double consideration . the first is of those who , being initiated in the mosaical rites , and made citizens of that commonwealth , did afterwards apostatise from the worship of the god of israel . these were proceeded against as traytors and rebels , guilty of no less than high-treason . for the common-wealth of the iews , different in that from all others , was an absolute theocracy : nor was there , or could there be , any difference between that commonwealth and the church . the laws established there concerning the worship of one invisible deity , were the civil laws of that people , and a part of their political government ; in which god himself was the legislator . now if any one can shew me where there is a commonwealth , at this time , constituted upon that foundation , i will acknowledge that the ecclesiastical laws do there unavoidably become a part of the civil ; and that the subjects of that government both may , and ought to be kept in strict conformity with that church , by the civil power . but there is absolutely no such thing , under the gospel , as a christian common-wealth . there are , indeed , many cities and kingdoms that have embraced the faith of christ ; but they have retained their ancient form of government ; with which the law of christ hath not at all medled . he , indeed , hath taught men how , by faith and good works , they may attain eternal life . but he instituted no common-wealth . he prescribed unto his followers no new and peculiar form of government ; nor put he the sword into any magistrate's hand , with commission to make use of it in forcing men to forsake their former religion , and receive his . secondly . foreigners , and such as were strangers to the commonwealth of israel , were not compell'd by force to observe the rites of the mosaical law. but , on the contrary , in the very same place where it is ordered that an israelite that was an idolater should be put to death , there it is provided that strangers should not be vexed nor oppressed . i confess that the seven nations , that possest the land which was promised to the israelites , were utterly to be cut off . but this was not singly because they were idolaters . for , if that had been the reason , why were the moabites and other nations to be spared ? no ; the reason is this . god being in a peculiar manner the king of the iews , he could not suffer the adoration of any other deity ( which was properly an act of high-treason against himself ) in the land of canaan , which was his kingdom . for such a manifest revolt could no ways consist with his dominion , which was perfectly political , in that country . all idolatry was therefore to be rooted out of the bounds of his kingdom ; because it was an acknowledgment of another god , that is to say , another king ; against the laws of empire . the inhabitants were also to be driven out , that the intire possession of the land might be given to the israelites . and for the like reason the emims and the horims were driven out of their countries , by the children of esau and lot ; and their lands , upon the same grounds , given by god to the invaders . but tho all idolatry was thus rooted out of the land of canaan , yet every idolater was not brought to execution . the whole family of rahab , the whole nation of the gibeonites , articled with iosuah , and were allowed by treaty : and there were many captives amongst the iews , who were idolaters . david and solomon subdued many countries without the confines of the land of promise , and carried their conquests as far as euphrates . amongst so many captives taken , so many nations reduced under their obedience , we find not one man forced into the jewish religion , and the worship of the true god , and punished for idolatry , tho all of them were certainly guilty of it . if any one indeed , becoming a proselyte , desired to be made a denison of their commonwealth , he was obliged to submit unto their laws ; that is , to embrace their religion . but this he did willingly , on his own accord , not by constraint . he did not unwillingly submit , to shew his obedience ; but he sought and sollicited for it , as a privilege . and as soon as he was admitted , he became subject to the laws of the common-wealth , by which all idolatry was forbidden within the borders of the land of canaan . but that law ( as i have said ) did not reach to any of those regions , however subjected unto the iews , that were situated without those bounds . thus far concerning outward worship . let us now consider articles of faith. the articles of religion are some of them practical , and some speculative . now , tho both sorts consist in the knowledge of truth , yet these terminate simply in the understanding , those influence the will and manners . speculative opinions , therefore , and articles of faith ( as they are called ) which are required only to be believed , cannot be imposed on any church by the law of the land. for it is absurd that things should be enjoyned by laws , which are not in mens power to perform . and to believe this or that to be true , does not depend upon our will. but of this enough has been said already . but ( will some say ) let men at least profess that they believe . a sweet religion indeed , that obliges men to dissemble , and tell lies both to god and man , for the salvation of their souls ! if the magistrate thinks to save men thus , he seems to understand little of the way of salvation . and if he does it not in order to save them , why is he so so sollicitous about the articies of faith as to enact them by a law ? further , the magistrate ought not to forbid the preaching or professing of any speculative opinions in any church , because they have no manner of relation to the civil rights of the subjects . if a roman catholick believe that to be really the body of christ , which another man calls bread , he does no injury thereby to his neighbour . if a iew do not believe the new testament to be the word of god , he does not thereby alter any thing in mens civil rights . if a heathen doubt of both testaments , he is not therefore to be punished as a pernicious citizen . the power of the magistrate , and the estates of the people , may be equally secure , whether any man believe these things or no. i readily grant , that these opinions are false and absurd . but the business of laws is not to provide for the truth of opinions , but for the safety and security of the commonwealth , and of every particular mans goods and person . and so it ought to be . for truth certainly would do well enough , if she were once left to shift for her self . she seldom has received , and i fear never will receive much assistance from the power of great men , to whom she is but rarely known , and more rarely welcome . she is not taught by laws , nor has she any need of force to procure her entrance into the minds of men . errors indeed prevail by the assistance of forreign and borrowed succours . but if truth makes not her way into the understanding by her own light , she will be but the weaker for any borrowed force violence can add to her . thus much for speculative opinions . let us now proceed to practical ones . a good life , in which consists not the least part of religion and true piety , concerns also the civil govrnment : and in it lies the safety both of mens souls , and of the commonwealth . moral actions belong therefore to the jurisdiction both of the outward and inward court ; both of the civil and domestick governor ; i mean , both of the magistrate and conscience . here therefore is great danger , least one of these jurisdictions intrench upon the other , and discord arise between the keeper of the publick peace and the overseers of souls . but if what has been already said concerning the limits of both these governments be rightly considered , it will easily remove all difficulty in this matter . every man has an immortal soul , capable of eternal happiness or misery ; whose happiness depending upon his believing and doing those things in this life , which are necessary to the obtaining of gods favour , and are prescribed by god to that end ; it follows from thence , 1 st , that the observance of these things is the highest obligation that lies upon mankind , and that our utmost care , application , and diligence , ought to be exercised in the search and performance of them ; because there is nothing in this world that is of any consideration in comparison with eternity . 2 dly , that seeing one man does not violate the right of another , by his erroneous opinions , and undue manner of worship , nor is his perdition any prejudice to another mans affairs ; therefore the care of each mans salvation belongs only to himself . but i would not have this understood , as if i meant hereby to condemn all charitable admonitions , and affectionate endeavours to reduce men from errors ; which are indeed the greatest duty of a christian. any one may employ as many exhortations and arguments as he pleases , towards the promoting of another man's salvation . but all force and compulsion are to be forborn . nothing is to be done imperiously . no body is obliged in that matter to yield obedience unto the admonitions or injunctions of another , further than he himself is perswaded . every man , in that , has the supreme and absolute authority of judging for himself . and the reason is , because no body else is concerned in it , nor can receive any prejudice from his conduct therein . but besides their souls , which are immortal , men have also their temporal lives here upon earth ; the state whereof being frail and fleeting , and the duration uncertain ; they have need of several outward conveniences to the support thereof , which are to be procured or preserved by pains and industry . for those things that are necessary to the comfortable support of our lives are not the spontaneous products of nature , nor do offer themselves fit and prepared for our use . this part therefore draws on another care , and necessarily gives another imployment . but the pravity of mankind being such , that they had rather injuriously prey upon the fruits of other mens labours , than take pains to provide for themselves ; the necessity of preserving men in the possession of what honest industry has already acquired , and also of preserving their liberty and strength , whereby they may acquire what they further want ; obliges men to enter into society with one another ; that by mutual assistance , and joint force , they may secure unto each other their proprieties , in the things that contribute to the comfort and happiness of this life ; leaving in the mean while to every man the care of his own eternal happiness , the attainment whereof can neither be facilitated by another mans industry , nor can the loss of it turn to another mans prejudice , nor the hope of it be forced from him by any external violence . but forasmuch as men thus entring into societies , grounded upon their mutual compacts of assistance , for the defence of their temporal goods , may nevertheless be deprived of them , either by the rapine and fraud of their fellow-citizens , or by the hostile violence of forreigners ; the remedy of this evil consists in arms , riches , and multitude of citizens ; the remedy of the other in laws ; and the care of all things relating both to the one and the other , is committed by the society to the civil magistrate . this is the original , this is the use , and these are the bounds of the legislative ( which is the supreme ) power , in every commonwealth . i mean , that provision may be made for the security of each mans private possessions ; for the peace , riches , and publick commodities of the whole people ; and , as much as possible , for the increase of their inward strength , against forreign invasions . these things being thus explain'd , it is easie to understand to what end the legislative power ought to be directed , and by what measures regulated ; and that is the temporal good and outward prosperity of the society ; which is the sole reason of mens entring into society , and the only thing they seek and aim at in it . and it is also evident what liberty remains to men in reference to their eternal salvation , and that is , that every one should do what he in his conscience is perswaded to be acceptable to the almighty , on whose good pleasure and acceptance depends their eternal happiness . for obedience is due in the first place to god , and afterwards to the laws . but some may ask , what if the magistrate should enjoyn any thing by his authority that appears unlawful to the conscience of a private person ? i answer , that if government be faithfully administred , and the counsels of the magistrate be indeed directed to the publick good , this will seldom happen . but if perhaps it do so fall out ; i say , that such a private person is to abstain from the action that he judges unlawful ; and he is to undergo the punishment , which it is not unlawful for him to bear . for the private judgment of any person concerning a law enacted in political matters , for the publick good , does not take away the obligation of that law , nor deserve a dispensation . but if the law indeed be concerning things that lie not within the verge of the magistrate's authority ; ( as for example , that the people , or any party amongst them , should be compell'd to embrace a strange religion , and join in the worship and ceremonies of another church , ) men are not in these cases obliged by that law , against their consciences . for the political society is instituted for no other end but only to secure every mans possession of the things of this life . the care of each mans soul , and of the things of heaven , which neither does belong to the common-wealth , nor can be subjected to it , is left entirely to every mans self . thus the safeguard of mens lives , and of the things that belong unto this life , is the business of the commonwealth ; and the preserving of those things unto their owners is the duty of the magistrate . and therefore the magistrate cannot take away these worldly things from this man , or party , and give them to that ; nor change propriety amongst fellow-subjects , ( no not even by a law ) for a cause that has no relation to the end of civil government ; i mean , for their religion ; which whether it be true or false , does no prejudice to the worldly concerns of their fellow-subjects , which are the things that only belong unto the care of the commonwealth . but what if the magistrate believe such a law as this to be for the publick good ? i answer : as the private judgment of any particular person , if erroneous , does not exempt him from the obligation of law , so the private judgment ( as i may call it ) of the magistrate does not give him any new right of imposing laws upon his jects , which neither was in the constitution of the government granted him , nor ever was in the power of the people to grant : much less , if he make it his business to enrich and advance his followers and fellow-sectaries , with the spoils of others . but what if the magistrate believe that he has a right to make such laws , and that they are for the publick good ; and his subjects believe the contrary ? who shall be judge between them ? i answer , god alone . for there is no judge upon earth between the supreme magistrate and the people . god , i say , is the only judge in this case , who will retribute unto every one at the last day according to his deserts ; that is , according to his sincerity and uprightness in endeavouring to promote piety , and the publick weal and peace of mankind . but what shall be done in the mean while ? i answer : the principal and chief care of every one ought to be of his own soul first , and in the next place of the publick peace : tho' yet there are very few will think 't is peace there , where they see all laid waste . there are two sorts of contests amongst men ; the one managed by law , the other by force : and these are of that nature , that where the one ends , the other always begins . but it is not my business to inquire into the power of the magistrate in the different constitutions of nations . i only know what usually happens where controversies arise , without a judge to determine them . you will say then the magistrate being the stronger will have his will , and carry his point . without doubt . but the question is not here concerning the doubtfulness of the event , but the rule of right . but to come to particulars . i say , first , no opinions contrary to human society , or to those moral rules which are necessary to the preservation of civil society , are to be tolerated by the magistrate . but of these indeed examples in any church are rare . for no sect can easily arrive to such a degree of madness , as that it should think sit to teach , for doctrines of religion , such things as manifestly undermine the foundations of society , and are therefore condemned by the judgment of all mankind : because their own interest , peace , reputation , every thing , would be thereby endangered . another more secret evil , but more dangerous to the commonwealth , is , when men arrogate to themselves , and to those of their own sect , some peculiar prerogative , covered over with a specious shew of deceitful words , but in effect opposite to the civil right of the community . for example . we cannot find any sect that teaches expresly , and openly , that men are not obliged to keep their promise ; that princes may be dethroned by those that differ from them in religion ; or that the dominion of all things belongs only to themselves . for these things , proposed thus nakedly and plainly , would soon draw on them the eye and hand of the magistrate , and awaken all the care of the commonwealth to a watchfulness against the spreading of so dangerous an evil. but nevertheless , we find those that say the same things , in other words . what else do they mean , who teach that faith is not to be kept with hereticks ? their meaning , forsooth , is that the priviledge of breaking faith belongs unto themselves : for they declare all that are not of their communion to be hereticks , or at least may declare them so whensoever they think fit . what can be the meaning of their asserting that kings excommunicated forfeit their crowns and kingdoms ? it is evident that they thereby arrogate unto themselves the power of deposing kings : because they challenge the power of excommunication , as the peculiar right of their hierarchy . that dominion is founded in grace , is also an assertion by which those that maintain it do plainly lay claim to the possession of all things . for they are not so wanting to themselves as not to believe , or at least as not to profess , themselves to be the truly pious and faithful . these therefore , and the like , who attribute unto the faithful , religious and orthodox , that is , in plain terms , unto themselves , any peculiar priviledge or power above other mortals , in civil concernments ; or who , upon pretence of religion , do challenge any manner of authority over such , as are not associated with them in their ecclesiastical communion ; i say these have no right to be tolerated by the magistrate ; as neither those that will not own and teach the duty of tolerating all men in matters of meer religion . for what do all these and the like doctrines signifie , but that they may , and are ready upon any occasion to seise the government , and possess themselves of the estates and fortunes of their fellow-subjects ; and that they only ask leave to be tolerated by the magistrate so long until they find themselves strong enough to effect it ? again : that church can have no right to be tolerated by the magistrate , which is constituted upon such a bottom , that all those who enter into it , do thereby , ipso facto , deliver themselves up to the protection and service of another prince . for by this means the magistrate would give way to the settling of a forrein jurisdiction in his own country , and suffer his own people to be listed , as it were , for souldiers against his own government . nor does the frivolous and fallacious distinction between the court and the church afford any remedy to this inconvenience ; especially when both the one and the other are equally subject to the absolute authority of the same person ; who has not only power to perswade the members of his church to whatsoever he lists , either as purely religious , or in order thereunto , but can also enjoyn it them on pain of eternal fire . it is ridiculous for any one to profess himself to be a mahumetan only in his religion , but in every thing else a faithful subject to a christian magistrate , whilst at the same time he acknowledges himself bound to yield blind obedience to the mufti of constantinople ; who himself is intirely obedient to the ottoman emperor , and frames the feigned oracles of that religion according to his pleasure . but this mahumetan living amongst christians , would yet more apparently renounce their government , if he acknowledged the same person to be head of his church who is the supreme magistrate in the state. lastly , those are not at all to be tolerated who deny the being of a god. promises , covenants , and oaths , which are the bonds of humane society , can have no hold upon an atheist . the taking away of god , tho but even in thought , dissolves all . besides also , those that by their atheism undermine and destroy all religion , can have no pretence of religion whereupon to challenge the privilege of a toleration . as for other practical opinions , tho not absolutely free from all error , if they do not tend to establish domination over others , or civil impunity to the church in which they are taught , there can be no reason why they should not be tolerated . it remains that i say something concerning those assemblies , which being vulgarly called , and perhaps having sometimes been conventicles , and nurseries of factions and seditions , are thought to afford the strongest matter of objection against this doctrine of toleration . but this has not hapned by any thing peculiar unto the genius of such assemblies , but by the unhappy circumstances of an oppressed or ill-setled liberty . these accusations would soon cease , if the law of toleration were once so setled , that all churches were obliged to lay down toleration as the foundation of their own liberty ; and teach that liberty of conscience is every mans natural right , equally belonging to dissenters as to themselves ; and that no body ought to be compelled in matters of religion , either by law or force . the establishment of this one thing would take away all ground of complaints and tumults upon account of conscience . and these causes of discontents and animosities being once removed , there would remain nothing in these assemblies that were not more peaceable , and less apt to produce disturbance of state , than in any other meetings whatsoever . but let us examine particularly the heads of these accusations . you 'll say , that assemblies and meetings endanger the publick peace , and threaten the commonwealth . i answer : if this be so , why are there daily such numerous meetings in markets , and courts of judicature ? why are crowds upon the exchange , and a concourse of people in cities suffered ? you 'll reply ; those are civil assemblies ; but these we object against , are ecclesiastical . i answer : 't is a likely thing indeed , that such assemblies as are altogether remote from civil affairs , should be most apt to embroyl them . o , but civil assemblies are composed of men that differ from one another in matters of religion ; but these ecclesiastical meetings are of persons that are all of one opinion . as if an agreement in matters of religion , were in effect a conspiracy against the commonwealth ; or as if men would not be so much the more warmly unanimous in religion , the less liberty they had of assembling . but it will be urged still , that civil assemblies are open , and free for any one to enter into ; whereas religious conventicles are more private , and thereby give opportunity to clandestine machinations . i answer , that this is not strictly true : for many civil assemblies are not open to every one . and if some religious meetings be private , who are they ( i beseech you ) that are to be blamed for it ? those that desire , or those that forbid their being publick ? again ; you 'll say , that religious communion does exceedingly unite mens minds and affections to one another , and is therefore the more dangerous . but if this be so , why is not the magistrate afraid of his own church ; and why does he not forbid their assemblies , as things dangerous to his government ? you 'll say , because he himself is a part , and even the head of them . as if he were not also a part of the commonwealth , and the head of the whole people . let us therefore deal plainly . the magistrate is afraid of other churches , but not of his own ; because he is kind and favourable to the one , but severe and cruel to the other . these he treats like children , and indulges them even to wantonness . those he uses as slaves ; and how blamelesly soever they demean themselves , recompenses them no otherwise than by gallies , prisons , confiscations , and death . these he cherishes and defends : those he continually scourges and oppresses . let him turn the tables : or let those dissenters enjoy but the same privileges in civils as his other subjects , and he will quickly find that these religious meetings will be no longer dangerous . for if men enter into seditious conspiracies , 't is not religion inspires them to it in their meetings ; but their sufferings and oppressions that make them willing to ease themselves . just and moderate governments are every where quiet , every where safe . but oppression raises ferments , and makes men struggle to cast off an uneasie and tyrannical yoke . i know that seditions are very frequently raised , upon pretence of religion . but 't is as true that , for religion , subjects are frequently ill treated , and live miserably . believe me , the stirs that are made , proceed not from any peculiar temper of this or that church or religious society ; but from the common disposition of all mankind , who when they groan under any heavy burthen , endeavour naturally to shake off the yoke that galls their necks . suppose this business of religion were let alone , and that there were some other distinction made between men and men , upon account of their different complexions , shapes , and features , so that those who have black hair ( for example ) or gray eyes , should not enjoy the same privileges as other citizens ; that they should not be permitted either to buy or sell , or live by their callings ; that parents should not have the government and education of their own children ; that all should either be excluded from the benefit of the laws , or meet with partial judges ; can it be doubted but these persons , thus distinguished from others by the colour of their hair and eyes , and united together by one common persecution , would be as dangerous to the magistrate , as any others that had associated themselves meerly upon the account of religion ? some enter into company for trade and profit : others , for want of business , have their clubs for clarret . neighbourhood joyns some , and religion others . but there is one only thing which gathers people into seditious commotions , and that is oppression . you 'll say ; what , will you have people to meet at divine service against the magistrates will ? i answer ; why , i pray , against his will ? is it not both lawful and necessary that they should meet ? against his will , do you say ? that 's what i complain of . that is the very root of all the mischief . why are assemblies less sufferable in a church than in a theater or market ? those that meet there are not either more vicious , or more turbulent , than those that meet elsewhere . the business in that is , that they are ill used , and therefore they are not to be suffered . take away the partiality that is used towards them in matters of common right ; change the laws , take away the penalties unto which they are subjected , and all things will immediately become safe and peaceable ; nay , those that are averse to the religion of the magistrate , will think themselves so much the more bound to maintain the peace of the commonwealth , as their condition is better in that place than elsewhere ; and all the several separate congregations , like so many guardians of the publick peace , will watch one another , that nothing may be innovated or changed in the form of the government : because they can hope for nothing better than what they already enjoy ; that is , an equal condition with their fellow-subjects , under a just and moderate government . now if that church , which agrees in religion with the prince , be esteemed the chief support of any civil government , and that for no other reason ( as has already been shewn ) than because the prince is kind , and the laws are favourable to it ; how much greater will be the security of a government , where all good subjects , of whatsoever church they be , without any distinction upon account of religion , enjoying the same favour of the prince , and the same benefit of the laws , shall become the common support and guard of it ; and where none will have any occasion to fear the severity of the laws , but those that do injuries to their neighbours , and offend against the civil peace ? that we may draw towards a conclusion . the sum of all we drive at is , that every man may enjoy the same rights that are granted to others . is it permitted to worship god in the roman manner ? let it be permitted to do it in the geneva form also . is it permitted to speak latin in the market-place ? let those that have a mind to it , be permitted to do it also in the church . is it lawfull for any man in his own house , to kneel , stand , sit , or use any other posture ; and to cloath himself in white or black , in short or in long garments ? let it not be made unlawful to eat bread , drink wine , or wash with water , in the church . in a word : whatsoever things are left free by law in the common occasions of life , let them remain free unto every church in divine worship . let no mans life , or body , or house , or estate , suffer any manner of prejudice upon these accounts . can you allow of the presbyterian discipline ? why should not the episcopal also have what they like ? ecclesiastical authority , whether it be administred by the hands of a single person , or many , is every where the same ; and neither has any jurisdiction in things civil , nor any manner of power of compulsion , nor any thing at all to do with riches and revenues . ecclesiastical assemblies , and sermons , are justified by daily experience , and publick allowance . these are allowed to people of some one perswasion : why not to all ? if any thing pass in a religious meeting seditiously , and contrary to the publick peace , it is to be punished in the same manner , and no otherwise , than as if it had happened in a fair or market . these meetings ought not to be sanctuaries for factious and flagitious fellows : nor ought it to be less lawful for men to meet in churches than in halls : nor are one part of the subjects to be esteemed more blameable , for their meeting together , than others . every one is to be accountable for his own actions ; and no man is to be laid under a suspition , or odium , for the fault of another . those that are seditious , murderers , thieves , robbers , adulterers , slanderers , &c. of whatsoever church , whether national or not , ought to be punished and suppressed . but those whose doctrine is peaceable , and whose manners are pure and blameless , ought to be upon equal terms with their fellow-subjects . thus if solemn assemblies , observations of festivals , publick worship , be permitted to any one sort of professors ; all these things ought to be permitted to the presbyterians , independents , anabaptists , arminians , quakers , and others , with the same liberty . nay , if we may openly speak the truth , and as becomes one man to another , neither pagan , nor mahumetan , nor iew , ought to be excluded from the civil rights of the commonwealth , because of his religion . the gospel commands no such thing . the church , which judges not those that are without , wants it not . and the commonwealth , which embraces indifferently all men that are honest , peaceable and industrious , repuires it not . shall we suffer a pagan to deal and trade with us , and shall we not suffer him to pray unto and worship god ? if we allow the iews to have private houses and dwellings amongst us , why should we not allow them to have synagogues ? is their doctrine more false , their worship more abominable , or is the civil peace more endangered , by their meeting in publick than in their private houses ? but if these things may be granted to iews and pagans , surely the condition of any christians ought not to be worse than theirs in a christian commonwealth . you 'll say , perhaps , yes , it ought to be : because they are more inclinable to factions , tumults , and civil wars . i answer : is this the fault of the christirn religion ? if it be so , truly the christian religion is the worst of all religions , and ought neither to be embraced by any particular person , nor tolerated by any commonwealth . for if this be the genius , this the nature of the christian religion , to be turbulent , and destructive to the civil peace , that church it self which the magistrate indulges will not always be innocent . but far be it from us to say any such thing of that religion , which carries the greatest opposition to covetousness , ambition , discord , contention , and all manner of inordinate desires ; and is the most modest and peaceable religion that ever was . we must therefore seek another cause of those evils that are charged upon religion . and if we consider right , we shall find it to consist wholly in the subject that i am treating of . it is not the diversity of opinions , ( which cannot be avoided ) but the refusal of toleration to those that are of different opinions , ( which might have been granted ) that has produced all the bustles and wars , that have been in the christian world , upon account of religion . the heads and leaders of the church , moved by avarice and insatiable desire of dominion , making use of the immoderate ambition of magistrates , and the credulous superstition of the giddy multitude , have incensed and animated them against those that dissent from themselves ; by preaching unto them , contrary to the laws of the gospel and to the precepts of charity , that schismaticks and hereticks are to be outed of their possessions , and destroyed . and thus have they mixed together and confounded two things that are in themselves most different , the church and the commonwealth . now as it is very difficult for men patiently to suffer themselves to be stript of the goods , which they have got by their honest industry ; and contrary to all the laws of equity , both humane and divine , to be delivered up for a prey to other mens violence and rapine ; especially when they are otherwise altogether blameless ; and that the occasion for which they are thus treated does not at all belong to the jurisdiction of the magistrate , but intirely to the conscience of every particular man ; for the conduct of which he is accountable to god only ; what else can be expected , but that these men , growing weary of the evils under which they labour , should in the end think it lawful for them to resist force with force , and to defend their natural rights ( which are not forfeitable upon account of religion ) with arms as well as they can ? that this has been hitherto the ordinary course of things , is abundantly evident in history : and that it will continue to be so hereafter , is but too apparent in reason . it cannot indeed be otherwise , so long as the principle of persecution for religion shall prevail , as it has done hitherto , with magistrate and people ; and so long as those that ought to be the preachers of peace and concord , shall continue , with all their art and strength , to excite men to arms , and sound the trumpet of war. but that magistrates should thus suffer these incendiaries , and disturbers of the publick peace , might justly be wondred at ; if it did not appear that they have been invited by them unto a participation of the spoil , and have therefore thought fit to make use of their covetousness and pride as means whereby to increase their own power . for who does not see that these good men are indeed more ministers of the government , than ministers of the gospel ; and that by flattering the ambition , and favouring the dominion of princes and men in authority , they endeavour with all their might to promote that tyranny in the commonwealth , which otherwise they should not be able to establish in the church ? this is the unhappy agreement that we see between the church and state. whereas if each of them would contain it self within its own bounds , the one attending to the worldly welfare of the commonwealth , the other to the salvation of souls , it is impossible that any discord should ever have hapned between them . sed , pudet haec opprobria , &c. god almighty grant , i beseech him , that the gospel of peace may at length be preached , and that civil magistrates growing more careful to conform their own consciences to the law of god , and less sollicitous about the binding of other mens consciences by humane laws , may , like fathers of their country , direct all their counsels and endeavours to promote universally the civil welfare of all their children ; except only of such as are arrogant , ungovernable , and injurious to their brethren , and that all ecclesiastical men , who boast themselves to be the successors of the apostles , walking peaceably and modesty in the apostles steps , without intermedling with state-affairs , may apply themselves wholly to promote the salvation of souls . farewell . perhaps it may not be amiss to add a few things concerning heresy and schism . a turk is not , nor can be , either heretick or schismatick , to a chrishian : and if any man fall off from the christian faith to mahumetism , he does not thereby become a heretick or schismatick , but an apostate and an infidel . this no body doubts of . and by this it appears that men of different religions cannot be hereticks or schismaticks to one another . we are to enquire therefore , what men are of the same religion . concerning which , it is manifest that those who have one and the same rule of faith and worship , are of the same religion : and those who have have not the same rule of faith and worship are of different religions . for since all things that belong unto that religion are contained in that rule , it follows necessarily that those who agree in one rule are of one and the same religion : and vice versa . thus turks and christians are of different religions : because these take the holy scriptures to be the rule of their religion , and those the alcoran . and for the same reason , there may be different religions also even amongst christians . the papists and the lutherans , tho' both of them profess faith in christ , and are therefore called christians , yet are not both of the same religion : because these acknowledge nothing but the holy scriptures to be the rule and foundation of their religion ; those take in also traditions and the decrees of popes , and of these together make the rule of their religion . and thus the christians of st. iohn ( as they are called ) and the christians of geneva are of different religions : because these also take only the scriptures ; and those i know not what traditions , for the rule of their religion . this being setled , it follows ; first , that heresy is a separation made in ecclesiastical communion between men of the same religion , for some opinions no way contained in the rule it self . and secondly , that amongst those who acknowledge nothing but the holy scriptures to be their rule of faith , heresy is a separation made in their christian communion , for opinions not contained in the express words of scripture . now this separation may be made in a twofold manner . 1. when the greater part , or ( by the magistrate's patronage ) the stronger part , of the church separates it self from others , by excluding them out of her communion , because they will not profess their belief of certain opinions which are not the express words of the scripture . for it is not the paucity of those that are separated , nor the authority of the magistrate , that can make any man guilty of heresy . but he only is an heretick who divides the church into parts , introduces names and marks of distinction , and voluntarily makes a separation because of such opinions . 2. when any one separates himself from the communion of a church , because that church does not publickly profess some certain opinions which the holy scriptures do not expresly teach . both these are hereticks : because they err in fundamentals , and they err obstinately against knowledge . for when they have determined the holy scriptures to be the only foundation of faith , they nevertheless lay down certain propositions as fundamental , which are not in the scripture ; and because others will not acknowledge these additional opinions of theirs , nor build upon them as if they were necessary and fundamental , they therefore make a separation in the church ; either by withdrawing themselves from the others , or expelling the others from them . nor does it signifie any thing for them to say that their confessions and symboles are agreeable to scripture , and to the analogy of faith. for if they be conceived in the express words of scripture , there can be no question about them ; because those things are acknowledged by all christians to be of divine inspiration , and therefore fundamental . but if they say that the articles which they require to be profess'd , are consequences deduced from the scripture ; it is undoubtedly well done of them who believe and profess such things as seem unto them so agreeable to the rule of faith. but it would be very ill done to obtrude those things upon others , unto whom they do not seem to be the indubitable doctrines of the scripture . and to make a separation for such things as these , which neither are nor can be fundamental , is to become hereticks . for i do not think there is any man arrived to that degree of madness , as that he dare give out his consequences and interpretations of scripture as divine inspirations , and compare the articles of faith that he has framed according to his own fancy with the authority of the scripture . i know there are some propositions so evidently agreeable to scripture , that no body can deny them to be drawn from thence : but about those therefore there can be no difference . this only i say , that however clearly we may think this or the other doctrine to be deduced from scripture , we ought not therefore to impose it upon others , as a necessary article of faith , because we believe it to be agreeable to the rule of faith ; unless we would be content also that other doctrines should be imposed upon us in the same manner ; and that we should be compell'd to receive and profess all the different and contradictory opinions of lutherans , calvinists , remonstrants , anabaptists , and other sects , which the contrivers of symbols , systems and confessions , are accustomed to deliver unto their followers as genuine and necessary deductions from the holy scripture . i cannot but wonder at the extravagant arrogance of those men who think that they themselves can explain things necessary to salvation more clearly than the holy ghost , the eternal and infinite wisdom of god. thus much concerning heresy ; which word in common use is applied only to the doctrinal part of religion . let us now consider schism , which is a crime near a-kin to it . for both those words seem unto me to signifie an ill-grounded separation in ecclesiastical communion , made about things not necessary . but since use , which is the supream law in matter of language , has determined that heresy relates to errors in faith , and schism to those in worship or discipline , we must consider them under that distinction . schism then , for the same reasons that have already been alledged , is nothing else but a separation made in the communion of the church , upon account of something in divine worship , or ecclesiastical discipline , that is not any necessary part of it . now nothing in worship or discipline can be necessary to christian communion , but what christ our legislator , or the apostles , by inspiration of the holy spirit , have commanded in express words . in a word : he that denies not any thing that the holy scriptures teach in express words , nor makes a separation upon occasion of any thing that is not manifestly contained in the sacred text ; however he may be nick-named by any sect of christians , and declared by some , or all of them to be utterly void of true christianity , yet indeed and in truth this man cannot be either a heretick or schismatick . these things might have been explained more largely , and more advantageously : but it is enough to have hinted at them , thus briefly , to a person of your parts . finis . books lately printed for awnsham churchill at the black swan at amen-corner . an historical account of making the penal laws by the papists against the protestants , and by the protestants against the papists . wherein the true ground and reason of making the laws is given , the papists most barbarous usage of the protestants here in england , under a colour of law , set forth ; and the reformation vindicated from the imputation of being cruel and bloody , unjustly cast upon it by those of the romish communion . by samuel blackerby , barrister of grays-inn . fol. a modest enquiry , whether st. peter were ever at rome , and bishop of that church ? wherein , i. the arguments of cardinal bellarmine and others , for the affirmative , are considered . ii. some considerations taken notice of , that render the negative highly probable . quarto . the spirit of france , and the politick maxims of lewis xiv . laid open to the world. quarto . memorials of the method and manner of proceedings in parliament in passing bills : together with several rules and customs , which by long and constant practice have obtained the name of orders of the house . gathered by observation , and out of the journal-books , from the time of edward vi. octavo . dr. burnet's tracts in two volumes . vol. i. containing , 1. his travels into switzerland , italy and germany ; with an appendix . 2. animadversions on the reflections upon the travels . 3. three letters of the quietists , inquisition , and state of italy . vol. ii. 4. his translations of lactantius of the death of persecutors . 5. his answers to mr. varillas : in three parts . twelves . a collection of texts of scripture , with short notes upon them and some other observations against the principal popish errors . twelves . the fallibility of the roman church , demonstrated from the manifest error of the second nicene and trent councils , which assert , that the veneration and honorary worship of images , is a tradition primitive and apostolical . quarto . a demonstration that the church of rome , and her councils , have erred ; by shewing , that the councils of constance , basil , and trent , have , in all their decrees touching communion in one kind , contradicted the received doctrine of the church of christ : with an appendix , in answer to the xxi . chapter of the author of a papist misrepresented , and represented . quarto . a treatise of traditions , part i. wherein it is proved , that we have evidence sufficient from tradition ; 1. that the scriptures are the word of god. 2. that the church of england owns the true canon of the books of the old testament . 3. that the copies of the scripture have not been corrupted . 4. that the romanists have no such evidence for their traditions . 5. that the testimony of the present church of rome can be no sure evidence of apostolical tradition . 6. what traditions may securely be relied upon , and what not . quarto . a treatise of traditions , part ii. shewing the novelty of the pretended traditions of the church of rome ; as being , 1. not mentioned by the ancients of their discourses of traditions apostolical , truly so called , or so esteemed by them . nor , 2. in their avowed rule , or symbol of faith. nor , 3. in the instructions given to the clergy , concerning all those things they were to teach the people . nor , 4. in the examination of a bishop at his ordination . nor , 5. in the ancient treatises designed to instruct christians in all the articles of their faith. 6. from the confessions of romish doctors : with an answer to the arguments of mr. mumford for traditions ; and a demonstration , that the heathens made the same plea from tradition as the romanists do ; and that the answer of the fathers to it doth fully justifie the protestants . quarto . all these four books written by the reverend d. whitby , d. d. an exhortation to charity ( and a word of comfort ) to the irish protestants : being a sermon preached at steeple in dorsetshire , upon occasion of the collection for relief of the poor protestants in this kingdom , lately fled from ireland : by samuel bold , rector of steeple . quarto . foxes and firebrands , or a specimen of the danger and harmony of popery and separation , first , second , and third parts . sir w. temple's observation on holland . — miscellanea . mr. selden's table-talk , or discourses on various subjects . a list of the present parliament , lords and commons , present case stated about allegiance to king william and queen mary . debates of the late oxford and westminster parliament . monsieur ierew's accomplishment . octavo . scripture-prophesies , compleat : in 2 vol. octavo . a new system of the revelations . twelves . voyages of syam . octavo . obedience due to the present king , notwithstanding our oaths to the former : by a divine of the church of england . the late lord russell's case , with observations upon it . writ by the right honourable henry lord delamere . fol. considerations humbly offered for taking the oath of allegiance to king william and queen mary . quarto . mr. masters of submission to divine providence . dr. worthington of the resurrection . octavo . an answer to bishop lake's ( late of chichester ) declaration of his dying in belief of the doctrine of passive obedience , &c. dr. carsael's assize-sermon at abingdon , aug 6. 1689. notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a48884-e410 luk. 22.25 . 2 tim. 2.19 . luke 22.32 . rom. 1. gal. 5. matth. 18.20 . exod. 22.20 , 21. deut. 2. 1 cor. 5.12 , 13. religio stoici mackenzie, george, sir, 1636-1691. 1663 approx. 180 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 96 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-08 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a50771 wing m195 estc r22472 12743307 ocm 12743307 93164 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a50771) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 93164) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 696:30) religio stoici mackenzie, george, sir, 1636-1691. [2], 5-8, 23, 159, [1] p. printed for r. broun, edinburgh : 1663. errata: p. [1] at end. reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng toleration. great britain -politics and government -1660-1688. 2004-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-03 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-04 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2004-04 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion religio stoici . acts 1. 11. — ye men of gallile , why stand ye gazing up into heaven ? edinburgh . printed for r. broun , 1663. the stoick to his censurers . i am , by religion , a protestant , and such confide little in merit ; and by humour , a stoick , and such are most inconcerned in censures : wherefore , as i intend to rival none of these who court fame , i hope none of these will asperse me ; and if i obtain truce from them , i know none else will attaque me . the multitude ( which albeit it be said to have many heads , yet , was ever known to have few brains ) will doubtless condemn me for enveighing against vanity , whilst i my self am so vain as to write books ; and will pronounce me as ridiculous in this , as these philosophers were of old , who denyed motion whilst their tongues mov'd in their cheek ; to whom my return shall be , that finding many ( even of such as i know will censure me ) be-myred in the puddle of error , i have , in this essay , proffer'd them my assistance , with an intention , not to shew my strength , but my compassion . i am no such fool , as to shew these philistines the sampsons-lock wherein my strength lyes , which doubtless their cruelty would never spare . others , who , by their gravity , ( or serious dulness ) have sublimated themselves above the rabble , will possibly accuse my studies of adultery , for hugging contemplations so excentrick to my employment . but , these may know , that thir papers are but the pairings of my other studies , and because they were such , i have flung them out into the streets . neither can i understand , how it proves a lawyer to be remisse in his imployment , that he takes leisure to reach a little helebor which lyes by him , to such poor persons , as because of their phanatick melancholy stand much in need thereof . this discourse is intended to be a medicine , and such never rel●sh well nor receive commendation from their pleasantesse , but from their profit , and are not to be censured by their taste , but by their operation . there are many things in this small peece , which may seem heterodoxe to such as defie custom , and worship the dagon of authorized tradition : yet , who knows but my watch goes right , albeit it differ from the publick clock of the city ; especially where the sun of righteousness hath not , by pointing clearly the dyal of faith , declared which of the two is in the right . i acknowledge the church to be my mother ; neither will i offer to scratch out my mothers eyes when they perceive my errors : yet , i believe that a childe may differ from his mothers judgement , in things wherein her honour is not concerned : but , i will wed no opinion without her consent who is my parent ; or , if i have wedded any , it is in the power of the church and it's officials , to grant me a divorce . i submit my self and this tractat to her and their censures , and desires none to believe me or it , but in these things only wherein i believe her and them . as for others , since i have taken the liberty to write , i were unmannerly if i refused them the liberty to censure and really it pleases my humour , 〈…〉 see curres bark and snarle at wha 〈…〉 hold out to them . g. mk. the stoicks friendly addresse to the phanaticks of all sects and sorts . the mad-cap zealots of this bigot age , intending to mount heaven , elias-like , in zeals fiery chariot , do , like foolish phaeton , not only fall themselves from their flaming seat , but by their furious over-driving , invelop the ●●rld in unquenchable combustions ; 〈◊〉 when they have thus set the whole globe on a blaze , this they tearm a new light . it is remarkable in scripture , that jehu , who drove furiously , and called up the prophet to see what zeal he had for the house of god , was even at that instant , doing it more wrong then ever was done to it by unconcerned gallio , who flantingly cared for none of those things . and that none of all the apostolick conclave desired ever fire might rain from above upon mis-believers ; except the sons of zebedee , who immediatly thereafter , arrived at that pitch of vanity , as to desire to sit in heaven upon christs right and left hand . and that peter , who was the first who did draw a sword in his masters quarrel , was likewayes the first who denyed him . firy zeal blows soon up , such combustible mater as the sons of zebedee ; and that flash being spent and evaporat , a fall follows , as befell peter . as that body is hardly cureable , which entertains such ill-suited neighbours as a cold stomach and a hote liver ; so , the body of the visible church may be now concluded to be in a very distempered conditon , when it 's charity waxeth cold , and it's zeal hot , beyond what is due to either ; and these feaverish fits of unnatural zeal , wherewith the church is troubled in it's old and cold age , betokens too much that it draws near it's last period . the inconsiderableness likewayes of our differences , and inconsideratness wherewith they are persued , induces me to believe , that the zeal now a-la-mode , is not that holy fire which is kindled by a coal from the altar , but is that ign's fatuus , or wild-fire , which is but a meteor peec'd up of malignant vapours , and is observed to frequent church-yards ofter then other places . i am none of those who acknowledge no temples , besides these of their own heads . and i am of opinion , that such as think that they have a church within their own breasts , should likewayes believe , that their heads are steeples , and so should provide them with bells . i believe that there is a church-militant , which , like the ark , must lodge in it's bowels all such as are to be saved from the flood of condemnation : but , to chalk out it's bordering lines , is beyond the geography of my religion . he was infallible who compared gods spirit to the wind which bloweth where it listeth , we hear the sound of it , but knows not whence it comes , or whether it goeth . and the name graven upon the whit-stone , none knows but he who hath it . eli concluded hannah to be drunk , when she was pouring out her soul before her maker : and elias believed , that the church , in his dayes , was stinted to his own person ; and yet god told him , that there were seven thousand in israel who had not bowed their knees to baal : why then should any private christian determine , magigisterially , that , wherein the greatest of prophets erred ? the reed wherewith the temple was to be measured , rev. 11. 2. was only entrusted to an angel ; and yet he had not in commission , to measure the court that was without , because it was given to the gentiles . and albeit , rev. 7. the number of the iews who were saved is determined ; yet , the number of gentiles is left indefinit , and said to be numberless . there is nothing more ordinar , then for each nation to confine the church within themselves . and in that nation again , one corner will have themselves the sanctum sanctorum of that only temple ; albeit our saviour in his gospel assures us , that men shall come from all corners of the world , and sit down with abraham , isaac and jacob. and john in his revelation tells us , that multitudes of all nations , kindreds and families , were seen following the lamb. upon this same block do these likewayes stumble , who put the bolt of their uncharitableness upon the gates of heaven , to debar whole professions , such as lawyers and physitians , from entring in thereat ; notwithstanding that the abovecited place tells us , that there were only twelve thousand of the tribe of levi the priest chosen , and the like number was prickt ; in the tribe of judah , the law-giver : aaron the priest did mould the golden calf , and not moses the iudge ; and korah and dathan were levits , and yet mutined against their magistrates . i say not this to disparage that holy function : for , none shall wish aarons rod to flourish more then my self ; and ordinarily , these who love not to touch the lords anointed , will likewayes be sure , to do his prophets no harm : but , i say it to take off an aspersion which hath stain'd too long , and too injustly , these of my own profession . is not the church our common mother ? albeit , i confess , she is likewayes their nurse , in a more particular way ; and since there is heavenly mannah enough to aliment us all , why should christans de ny to admit their brethren to an equal partage ? it grieves me sore to see my mother the church tortur'd like rebecca , by carrying strugling twaines in her pained bowels . and seing all christians are but pilgrims here , i admire that these pilgrims should leave off to journey , and stand skirmishing and fighting with all such as will not travel their road . and albeit we acknowledge , that the spirit of god takes pains , and is sufficient for leading all men in the way wherein they should walk ; yet , we must compell them , as if either he needed our help , or we resolved to share with him the glory of their conversion . thus god ( who loves us all infinitly better then one any of us doth another ) leaves us , upon our own hazard , a freedom in our choice , albeit we poor miscreants compell one another , denying to our fellow-creatures that freedom which he allowes all the creation . i wish we would consider how each man eats , drinks , cares for his family and performes all common duties , rational enough without any compulsion ; and yet , in the affairs of religion , wherein doubtless man is led by a far more infallible assistance , there are many slips committed , daily and grossly , notwithstanding of all the pains taken , and force used by one man towards another . thus it fairs with us as with patients , whom when the physitians stints to a narrow dyet , then they loath even that food , which their unreined appetite would never have rejected . and this makes me apt to believe , that if laws and law-givers did not make hereticks vain , by taking too much notice of their extravagancies , the world should be no more troubled with these , then they are with the chimeras of alchimists and philosophers . and it fairs with them as with tops , which , how long they are scourged , keep foot and run pleasantly , but fall how soon they are neglected and left to themselves . in order to which , it was wittily observed by our great king james the sixth , that the puritans of his age strove with him , and yet ceded at first , in a difference between them and the shoe-makers of edinburgh : for , not only pleases it their humour to contend where they may gain honour and can loss none , but likewayes , by contesting with monarchs , they magnifie to the people their pious courage , assuring the world , that such attempts require a particular assistance from heaven ; and when their jangling hath extorted some concessions from the magistrate , ( as ordinarily it doth ) then they press that success as an infallible mark of the jure-divinoship of their quarrel . albeit , i confess , that when these , not only recede from the canonized creed of the church , but likewayes incroach upon the laws of the state , then , as of all others , they are the most dangerous ; so , of all others , they should be most severely punished . opinion , kept within it's proper bounds , is an pure act of the mind : and so it would appear , that to punish the body for that which is a guilt of the soul , is as unjust as to punish one relation for another . and this blood-thirsty zeal , which hath reigned in our age , supposes our most mercifull god to be of the same temper with these pagan deities , who desired to have their altars gored with blood ; and being devils themselves , delighted in the destruction of men : whereas the almighty , who delights not in the death of a sinner , but rather that he should repent and live , hath left no warr and upon holy record , for persecuting such as dissent from us ; but even then when he commands that the prophets , who tempts others to idolatry , should be slain , yet , speaks he nothing of punishing these who were seduced by them . and why should we shew so much violence in these things whereof we can show no certain evidence ? as ordinarily we cannot in circumfundamental debates . are we not ready to condemn to day , as phanatick , what yesterday was judged jure-divino ? and do not even those who persecuted others for their opinions , admire why they should be , upon that score , persecuted themselves ? so that ( victory depending upon event ) we legitimat the persecutions , to be used by others , against our selves , by the persecutions used by our selves , against others . our saviour forbids us to pluck up the tears , lest the wheat be pulled up with it ; and how can the most pious persecutors know , that the saints are not destroyed with the sinners ? it is remarkable , that our saviour disarmed zealous peter , even when he was serving him in person , in his greatest straits , and against the most profligat of his enemies , the iews : and that to prevent the irregular zeal even of the first and best of christians , the blessed apostles , their divine master thought it fit to arme them not with swords , but with scrips , and to root out of their hearts all thoughts of violence , did oft inculcat in them , that his kingdom was not of this world ; convinceing them by an excellent argument , that he had no need of armes or armies ; for else he could have commanded thousands of angells . did ever god command the iews to war against any neighbouring nation because they were pagans ( a quarrel which would have lasted till all the world had been conquered ) or , did our saviour leave in legacie to his servants , that they should force others to turn prosylits , which doubtlesse he had done , if he had resolved to allow such a rude mean of conversion ? all which makes me admire , why in our late troubles , men really pious , and naturally sober , could have been so transported , as to destroy whom they could not convince , and to perswade these who were convinced , that religion obliged them to destroy others . my heart bleeds when i consider how scaffolds were dyed with christian blood , and the fields covered with the carcasses of murthered christians ; and its probable , that there were more damned by unprepared deaths , in the fields , then were saved by peeping sermons in incendiary churches ; and in this , i admire the clemency of our royal master , who , albeit his cause was more just then theirs , albeit he might have convinced them by obtruding to them their own practices : yet , hath rather chosen to command with his scepter then his sword. but , if the glory of god were the mark at which these do levell , why bestow they not their zeal , rather in converting such as scarce know or acknowledge that there is a god ? and why are they more enraged against these who agree with them in most things , then these who dissent from them in all ? take not christians more pains to refute one another , then to convince gentiles ? and stand not episcopists and presbyterians at greater distance , then either do with turks and pagans ? and to evidence , that rather humour then piety occasions our differences , we may easily percieve , that the meaner the subject is , the heat is alwayes the greater . if i had ever known so much as one whose faith had been the trophy of a debate , i should allow of debates in maters of religion : but seeing men cannot be convinced by miracles , it were ridiculous to presse conversion by arguments . all the divines in europe could not press the best founded of their contraverted and polemick truths , with so much scripture , or so many miracles as our blessed saviour did his own divinity ( which is the foundation of all truths ) and yet the iews and all the world besides , slighted this infallible doctrine ; and to evidence that there is a season of grace , independent from arguments , did not many thousands turn prosylits at peters sermon ? whom all our saviours homilies and miracles could not perswade . if one should say , that the testimony of a few fisher-men should not be believed in a mater of so great consequence , as is the salvation of the whole world , especially when they did depone as witnesses , in a matter wherein both their honour and livelyhood was concerned , might not this stagger some mean christian ? and yet i believe these truths so much the more , because such as these were its first asserters ; for , certainly it is one of the greatest of miracles , that so few , and so illiterate persons were able to convince the whole world . thus we see , that one may account that a miracle which another looks upon as a folly ; and yet , none but gods spirit can decide the controversie . maters of religion and faith , resembling some curious pictures and optick prismes , which seems to change shapes and colours , according to the several stances from which the asp●cient views them . the ballance of our judgments hath ●atched such a bruise by adams fall , that scarce can we by them know the weight of any argument . but , which is worse , there is as great a defect in our partial weighing , as in the scales themselves : for , when we take either the pro or con . of any controversie into our patronage , we throw alwayes in arguments into that scale , wherein our own opinion lyes , without ever taking leisure to consider what may be alledged for the antipode proposition : and then , when we receive an answer , our invention is busied , not in pondering how much conviction it hath in it , but by what slight it may be answered ; and thus either passion , interest or frequent meditation , are still the weights which cast the ballance . this firy zeal hath likewayes made an other pimple flash out in the face of the phanatick church , and that is , a conceit that the saints have the only right to all gods creatures , the wicked being only usurpers and not masters of them : but , i have heard this opinion ( so beastly is it ) confuted by balaam's asse , who could tell it's master , am not i thine own asse ? when aaron and the people did covenant without moses , then every man did bring his ear-rings to make up the golden calf . and we have lived in an age , wherein we have seen our countrey-men , like the chaldeans , take the furniture both of the temple and of the kings house , and carry them away to their babylon of confusions ; and in an age wherein sober men were forced to lend monies , to buy for their own armes the heavy shekles of slavery , tantum religio potuit suadere malorum . religion doubtless aims at two great designes , one is like the first table , to perswade us to adore god almighty . another is to perswade us , like to the second table , to love our neighbour , and to be a mean to settle all these jealousies , and compesce all these animosities which interest might occasion ; and this appears by the doxology jubilyed by the angels at our saviours birth , glory to god , and peace and good-will towards men . and therefore , as every private christian should be tollerated by his fellow subjects , to worship god inwardly according to his conscience ; so all should conspire in that exteriour uniformity of worship , which the laws of his countrey injoins . the first remark which god made of us after the creation , was , that it was not fit for man to be alone ; there was only one ark amongst the iews by gods own appointment . and seing the gospel tearms the church christ's spouse , it were absurd to think , that he will divorce from her upon every error or escape ; especially , seing his blessed mouth hath told us , that under the gospel it is not lawfull to divorce upon all occasions ; and if he will not for these , deny her to be his spouse , much less should we deny her to be our mother . may not one , who is convinced in his judgment , that monarchy is the best of governments , live happily in venice or holland ? and that traveller were absurd , who would rather squable with these amongst whom he sojourns , then observe these rites and solemnities which are required by the laws of the places where he lives ? what is once statuted by a law , we all consent to , in choosing commissioners to represent us in these parliaments where the laws are made ; and so if they ordain us to be decimated , or to leave the nation if we conform not , we cannot say , when that law is put to execution , that we are opprest ; no more then we could complain , if one did remove us legally from these lands which he purchas'd from our trustee , whom we had impowered to sell it . as david said to saul , 1 sam. 26. 20. why went the king out to catch a flea ? so may i say to our great divines , why contravert they about shadows ? is it fit that christians , who find it too great a task to govern their private souls , should be so much concerned how the church is governed by others ? wherefore , seing many have been saved who were most inexpert in these questions , and that foolish zeal , passion , and too much curiositie therein , hath damned many , i may conclude , that to pry in these , is neither necessary , because of the first , nor expedient , because of the last . since discretion opened my eyes , i have alwayes judg'd it necessar for a christian , to look oftner to his practice of piety , then to his confession of faith , and to fear more the crookedness of his will , then the blindness of his judgment , delighting more to walk on from grace to grace , working out the work of his own salvation with fear and trembling , then to stand still with the galileans curiously gazing up to heaven . true religion and undefiled is to visit the widow and the fatherless ; and the dittay drawn up against the damned spirits shall be , that when our saviours poor ones were hungry , they did not feed them ; when they were naked , they did not cloath them , without mentioning any thing of their unbelief in maters of controversie or government . and therefore i hope , that these to whom i address my self in this discourse , will rather believe me to be their friend , because of their piety , then their enemy , because of their errors . the virtuoso , or stoick . albeit man be but a statue of dust kneaded with tears , moved by the hid engines of his restless passions , a clod of earth , which the shortest feaver can burn to ashes , and the least shower of rheums wash away to nothing ; yet makes he as much noise in the world , as if both the globes ( these glorious twaines ) had been un-wombed from that formless chaos , by the midwifry of his wit ; he speaks thunder , looks lightning , breaths storms , and by the eloquence of his own vanity , perswads himself that his commands are able to unhinge the poles . from which boundless pride , i considently conclude , that if a natural instinct , or as the stoicks terme it , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , had not irresistably bowed his faith to assent to a deity , he had never , neither upon design nor in complyance to custom ( as atheists alledge ) suffer'd to creep into his creed , that there was one greater then himself , who could rein his affections , and bound their effects , according to the dictates of his irresistable will. and albeit regiments of arguments , levyed both from the stately fabrick of heavens arched pend , and from the inimitable embroidery of earths flowry boul , be requisite for conquering the infidelity of others , and for rendring them tributaries to that all-forming essence : yet , doth my faith render up the arms of it's depraved reason , and turn prosolyte to this divine truth , upon the sole sight of one of these dying atheists ; who , upon any surprisal , do with amazement throw up their eyes to heaven , as if they sent their looks in ambassade to beg assistance from thence ; and cry , god save me , as if these beastly souls , when attaqued unexpectedly , knew whence their health were to be expected : like to other sick brutes , who when assaulted by sickness , are , by the hand of that same storge and instinct , led to some herb or flower , which is an apothecary shop appointed by nature for them . neither think i these arguments which are twisted together of three propositions so strong as these instincts are ; where truth , like the sun , seems to dart home it's light in one unperceiveable act , whereas in these , pur-blind nature may be mistaken , not only in judging of the truth of either of the three parts , but likewise of their connexion and allyance . i know that that miscreant , who began his hell upon earth , by being burnt at tholouse for theorick atheisme , did upon his first approach to the fire , cry , o god : whereupon , being taxt by the assisting jesuit , answered , that these and such like expressions were the offspring of custom : but poor soul , he might have considered , that seing he had creept from his cradle into that error , and had run his glass to it's last sand , in propagating that hellish conceit : that therefore this expression was rather a confession then an escape , rather the product of a rational soul then of depraved custom ; for as it was in it self a divine truth , so it was in him contrary to a settled habit . there is another caball of atheists , who think that this beleef was at first ; but the quaint leger-de-main of some strongly-pated states-man ; who to over-awe the capriciousness of a giddy multitude , did forge this opinion of a rewarder of all humane actions : and to enforce this , do instance numa pompiluis , and mahomet , whose palpable cheats grew up in their successors into religions ; and whose inventions were received with as much bigotrie , by the wisest of men , as is that deity which is now the object of our adorations . wherefore ( say they ) seing the rational soul hath failed so oft , and so absurdly in its discoveries , how , or why , should we submit our selves slavishly to it's determinations ? for that which doth at some times erre , can never at any time be concluded infallible . to these i answer , that albeit , as to the particular way of worship , the world is oft times deluded . and albeit , even as to their apprehensions of this incomprehensible essence , multitudes be some times misled ; yet , these staggering fancies fix this great truth , that there is a supream who must be adored : for if this innate instinct did not coopere with these impostures , in gaining an assent no their fictitious religions and hierarchies , it were impossible for any humane authority to establish principles so remote from reason , and to subjugate by these even the mildest tempers . but i take the root from which these errors do spring , to be , that the twilight of darkned reason glimpsing to man , that impressa of the divine image , which though much decayed , yet rests still upon his soul ; and not being able , because of the faintness of his light , and the decay of that divine impressa , to discern exactly what that deity is , with whose image it is signeted ; believes implicitely with a profound respect , any who hath the confidence to obtrude any knowledge of it upon them . concluding in the conclave of their own thoughts , that none durst contemn so far , that omnipotent thunder-darter , as to vend their own fancies for sacred oracles . and albeit these hood-winked nations did erect a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in their own hearts , wherein all these vice-gods were worshiped ; yet were all these but representations of the true god ; for his omnipotency and power was adored in their mars ; his omniscience in their appollo , &c. and it is very probable that the heathens admired so each attribute of god almighty , that they thought each deserved distinct altars ; so that their errors had their rise from rather too much then too little respect ; and that as the same ocean receives several names from the several shoars it washes , so , according to the several operations of the most high , did these deluded pagans establish several deities . but that all these did ultimatly terminat in one , is clear from the inscription of that athenian altar , to the unknown god ; from the designation of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , from their common feasts or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; from the adjunct of delphicus given to appollo , which in greek signifies unus ; as macrobius observes , from their altars erected , disque deabusque omnibus , and from the general invocation of all the deities joyntly subjoyned to all their particular sacrifices . so that the great and all comprehending idea , wherein he is represented , as in one big mirrour to us , was by them broke in pieces , and in each of these pieces taken alone did they see a deity , though much abridged ; whereas all these pieces , when set together , did represent but one , and each piece did then shew but a part . but to evidence that our belief of a deity is not a state and traditionall imposture , i would willingly know if ever the skilfullest of sathans emissaries was able to induce the world to believe that there was no god ; which ( doubtless ) might have at some occasions contributed much to some mens politick designs , and which that rebell would have attempted , if either god had not restrained him , or himself had not known it imprestable . and it is most remarkable , that the first promoters of that divine doctrine were persons , who , both by precept and practice , decryed ambition and declined state imployments ; and so it were absurd to think that they invented these in subordination to state projects . there is also much force in that argument , wherein from the nature of prophesying , is concluded the being of a god : for , to foresee , is doubtless a way of seeing , far above the reach of humane nature ; man not being able to conclude but that , what is possible upon both parts , may come to pass upon either of its parts . and hence it was , that the heathens themselves termed this prediction divination , as if it could not be but divine . as also , if there were not a god , but that this were a fiction , it would follow , that errour and delusion ( such as this ex hypothesi ) were able , and actually did , of all other things , frame a man's soul most to virtue : and that the best of men ( such as are the adorers of a deity ) were both the greatest cheats and block-heads . all which , are absurdities to be hiss'd at by all who are masters of the meanest portion of humane reason . there lurketh much curious contemplation in pondering , how that albeit the parents of all heathnish religions , have been incomparably the chiefest witts in their times ; for else they could not have impress'd the spirits of their disciples with such abstract principles ; yet , all their models , seem repugnant to common reason : and they have chois'd to teach principles which seem ridiculous . thus the fictions related by the poets of their gods , the rites used by the romans , and the fopperies of the alcoran , are absurdities unworthy of a rational belief , if man were not acted by an innate principle , to place the mysteries of religion above his reason . by which we see , that the imputation cast upon the scriptures of their contrariety to reason , chocks likewayes the principles of all nations : and certainly , if there were nothing revealed to us in religion , but what the short line of our reason might fadom , the omnipotency of god , and the weakness of our own reason , should remain still unknown : and seing our reason is only suitable to our nature , certainly if that infinit essence and it's mysteries might be comprehended by that same reason , which measureth things finit , we might conclude god to be finit likewayes ; and is it not impudence in us who know not the ebbing and flowing of the sea , nor the reason why the adamant draweth the iron , to repine because we cannot comprehend the essence of god almighty ? and then vainly to conclude , that because we cannot grasp within the short armes of our understanding , the vast bulk of the deity , that there is no deity ? a conclusion as absurd , as if one should say , that when the nimble wings of an arrow transport it above our sight , it did leave off to be , when it left off to be perceived . and i am of opinion , that mysteriousness suits rarely well with divine truths , the finest things using alwayes to be best wrapt up : thus if we listen to our hid inclinations , we will find a pleasing veneration in reserved silence ; and our curiosity will swiftly follow , what by it's retiredness fleeth from us : silent groves whose bush-top trees lay their heads together , as in a conspiracy to resist the sun's entry , and powder its light with sables , creat's a veneration in us . and as the heathens did choise groves , so did the primitive christians light their devotions with torches and candles , intimating thereby that umbrag'd silence was an excellent shryn for sincere devotions ; and in this sense , it may be , the word of god is said to be a lantern to our steps , and the seven churches are compared to seven candlsticks . did not our saviour teach his disciples in parables ? and was not the ark vailed from the eyes of the people ? the pagans dispensed their divinity in hieroglyphicks ; and amongst humane writers , the most mysterious carry still the lawrels : and why should we vainly wish to comprehend the nature of the deity , seing moses , god's intimate , and minion , could not have that allowance ? and god himself , when for our necessary instruction he would discover something of himself to us , is forced per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( as divines speak ) to discover himself in a stile borrowed from humane frailty , and to express his infinit affections by our disordered passions . i believe , that socrates , natur's greatest disciple , and the deity 's protomartyr , was a prosolyt of the same faith , which we profess , and had his large soul illuminated by that sun of righteousness , whose refulgent rayes are now the bright torches of the christian church . neither is my belief in this staggered by the silence of his co-temporary writers , as to this particular : seing these , not being of the same perswasion with him , but being convinced of his moral worth , did descrive his opinions suitably to their own apprehension . thus did these pagan historians admire the great saviour of mankind , only for his morall accomplishments , without reaching these divine principles , by which he was acted . the stoicks likewayes were in all probability , a tribe of iohn baptist's , and god having resolved to purge the universe of its original unrighteousness by that blessed manna which came down from heaven to give life to the world , did by their doctrine of abstemiousness , as by a spare dyet , prepare its body for receiving that divine dose . and certainly , if men had disbanded that execrable troup of lusts , against which these preached , and had listned ( as the stoicks book of discipline injoyned ) to their own private consciences , and had by retiredness abstracted themselves from the reach of temptations , it had facilitated much their conversion : for if the young lawyer , who came to consult christ how to draw up his securities of heaven , and of his portion there , had believed their oracle , which decry'd riches as the unnecessary baggadge of man's life , and the mudd which clog'd the wings of the souls contemplation , and kept it from soaring its natural pitch , he had never refuised our saviour's yoke , because he was commanded to sell all and to give it to the poor . thus likewayes if the rich glutton had dyeted himself according to the scant prescript of their allowance , his scoarched tongue had not stood in need of a drop of watter to allay it's thirst . neither had nicodemus needed to have mantled himself in the darkness of the night , when he came to our saviour , out of fear , lest he should have been discovered ; seing their doctrine might have taught him , that fear was a passion , unworthy to be lodged in the soul of man : and that there is nothing here , which a man either should , or needeth to fear . but albeit neither instinct nor faith , were able to convince us infallibly of this truth ; yet is it both more satisfying , and more safe to embrace this opinion , then its contrary . more satisfying , because man's summum bonum here , being lodged in the tranquillity of his spirit ; that which can best plaine and smooth the rugged and uneven face of his frequent and inevitable misfortunes , must be doubtless the most carressable of opinions : wherefore , seing nothing can strengthen so much man's frailty , nothing check so soon his dispair , nothing feed so much his hope , nor animate so much his courage , as to believe that there is a god , who beareth the heaviest end of all our crosses upon the shoulders of his love ; who is able to turn , or arrest the giddie wheel of fortune by the strong hand of his omnipotency ; and who twisteth lawrels of inimaginable joyes for the heads of these who fight under his banners . if a man leaned not his weary soul upon this divine rest , he were not only an enemy to nature , but even to his own happiness . what rocks of danger could men escape , if blind-fortune did sit at the helme , and if vertuous persons complain , as affairs are presently stated ? that their merites are not weighed with indifferency enough in the scales of justice , what might be expected , if hazard got the ballance to mannage ? and these who leave their native countries , when they perceive that the law beginneth to render its oracles in an unconstant stile , and with a trembling voice , behooved to leave the world , if this anarchy were by atheisme established ? for as a wise stoick well observed , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . it were impossible to live in a world , void of god and void of providence . it is likewayes most safe ; for if there be a deity , doubtless these obdured atheists , whose obstinacy hath conjured their consciences to a constrain'd silence , and brybed these infallible witnesses , to depone what suited best with their wild resolutions , or rather neglected resolutly their sincere depositions : then certainly , the just flames of that god's indignation , whom they have disclaimed , will heat for them a furnace in hell , beyond what the other damned spirits shall meet with in their torture . whereas albeit there be no tribunall , from which such a thunder-bolt sentence may be darted , nor no supreme judge by whom our actions shall be canvass'd , then these who have paid their adorations at his altars , shall be in no danger . wherefore , seing it should be the task of a virtuoso , to turn out all such thoughts as may raise a mutiny in his breast ; it were a foolish toy in him to entertain atheisme , which is a nurcery of disquietness : for whose breast could enjoy a calme whilst a concernment of so much weight , as his externall portion , did hing from the weak threed of a mere may be , and of such a may be , as marches so near with a will not be ? but if ye would know , what disquieting vapours atheisme sends up to the brain , when it is once drunk in : go to the horrour creating beds of a dying atheist , whose roaring voice , might awake the most lethargick conscience that ever the devil iull'd a sleep . there ye shall know by the urinal of his eyes , and the water standing therein , what convulsion-fits his soul suffers ; and shall learn from his own mouth , how grievously his diseased soul is streatched upon the rack of despair : then it is , that the voluminous registers of his conscience , which did ly formerly clasp'd in some unsearcht corner of his memory , are laid open before him , and the devil who hitherto gave him the lessening end of the prospect , to survey his sins in , turns now its magnifying end to his fearfull eye . it should be then the grand design of a philosopher , to order his own breast aright , before he go abroad to view the works of the creation ; least if he leave its door unbolted , the devil steal from him his richest jewel , whilest he sweats to enrich his contemplation with what is of far less consequence . it is no wild fancy to think , that atheisme hath been the product of superstition : for certainly , many who were by humour gallio's , finding that religion exacted from men such inhumane homage to its recognizance , as was the sacrificing children amongst the heathens , wearying pilgrimages , and hectick lents amongst christians , did resolve rather to deny than to adore such deities . thus lucretius revolted upon agamemnon's sacrificing his daughter iphigenia for the grecian safety , crying out , tantum religio potuit suadere malorum . and thus petronius ▪ arbiter a monck of the same cell , says that , primus in orbe deos timor fecit , fulmina coelo cum caderent — and to prevent this , our saviour doth oft inculcat , that his yoke is easie and his burden is light . and doubtless , as the straightest line is alwayes the shortest ; so the most rational designes are alwayes easilyest effectuated ; and as seneca hath excellently observed , licet deus non esset , tamen non peccarem ob peccati vilitatem . there is something of meanness in the gallantest , and most alluring sin . and this is most energetically exprest in scripture , whilst it is said that the wicked weary themseles by their sins . a principle , which not only the magisterial authority of god's spirit , but our experience likewayes places above the reach of all scruples : for are not the inquietuds , the cheats , and palliated parricids , and sacriledges brooded by ambition , the churlishness and close-handedness parented by avarice , effects unworthy to be father'd upon any rational soul ; and at which we should scarlet our cheeks with blushes , as well as ●npale them through fear , and should stand as much in awe of our consciences , as most do of a deity ? yet , it may be we are in a mistake , whilst we place superstition in the excess of such adorations , as are either commanded or indifferent : for seing the object of our adorations , god almighty , is in himself infinit , we can never exceed either in our respects to him , or in the expression of them . excess being only admissible , where the object is finit , and where we attribute mor then is due , which can never be here . thus if kneeling be lawfull at any occasion , i hardly see why it is not lawfull to kneel at all occasions . and if these exteriour rites and ceremonies ( some whereof are allow'd in all churches ) be judged requisit , for expressing our vassalage and subordination to god our maker , either they are altogether unwarrantable , or else we should proportion them ( as far as in us lyes ) to that infinit object . and seing the angels are said to cover their faces with their wings before him , the patriarchs to fall upon their face and worship ; and our adorable saviour , in that conflict wherein he represented sinfull man , is by matthew remark'd to have fall'n upon his face , by mark to have fall'n upon the ground , and by luke to have kneel'd . what is crawling man , that he should account such gestures fond superstition ? it would appear then , that superstition consists in man's worshiping god by meanes unlawfull , such as are children-sacrifices , and such like , whereby his divine attributes are mis-represented , and tainted with cruelty , or tyrannie , and not in an excess , in such expressions of our respect as are in themselves lawfull . and if there be any strength in that argument , wherein we inforce the being of god , from the harmonious consent and assent of all nations : certainly , by that same argument , we may establish the decency , if not the necessity , of ceremonies . for , what nation bowes to altars , without profound and external submissions ? and , who lodges upon the surface of our globe , who payes not as the reddendo of their charter to these gods whom they worship , ceremonial adorations , wrapt up in most submissive rites ? that god made all things for his glory , is an expression , which ( i think ) looks not well at the test of reason , and hath no warrand but unwary custome : for beyond all question , his glory was so brim-full formerly , that it neither needed , nor could recieve any considerable accession from this small drop . and besids this , the innate apprehension we have of doing any thing for one's glory , dyes this expression with some guilt ; yet , i confess , we may warrantably say , that when perverse man calls his power in question , or controverts his being only wise ; that then , god for our instruction , and the vindication of his own glorious attributes , doth many things for his own glory . and in this sense , the scripture saith , that god will punish the wicked , and deliver his people , for his own glory . and wherever it is said , that god doth , or createh any thing , for his own glory , it is doubtless in this sense ; in which man ( who is made after his image ) may act for his own glory without any vanity ; albeit to act for his own glory in the first sense , were in him criminal . it is then more probable , that god being infinitly good , and all good being sui communicativum , that his design in creating the world , was to communicate and display his goodness : and upon this base probably hath aristotle reared up his errour , of the worlds existency from all eternity : for , seing god was ab aeterno infinitly good , and that good is still communicative : he did ( it may be ) conclude , that ab aeterno , god did communicate his goodness : which could only be to creatures . and therefore it was necessar that there should have been a world : and some philosophers have aver'd , that the world flowed from god per emanationem , ab aeterno , as beames are lanced out from the body of the sun. albeit i be none of aristotle's partisans , nor holds my philosophy of him as my superior ; yet i cannot but think , that god hath communicated his goodness to worlds prior to ours , which is but of 5662 years standing . but i am not so arrogant as to determine the time of the first worlds birth , nor how many cadets it hath had , resolving to leave its date , blank , to be fill'd up by some arrogant pretender . neither should i accuse mine own thoughts of heresie , for concluding , that probably there are presently thousands of worlds co-existing with ours , whereof some , it may be , are governed by maximes . if not contrair , yet at least differnt from these which are our canons . all which worlds , albeit they were actually subsisting , would ly in the bosome of the large imaginarie spaces , but like so many small balls in the corner of a large tennis-court . i shall not for confirming this opinion , cite , with an ignorant french curate , the parable of the lepers , where it is said , nonne sunt decem mundi ? because i know that it was wittily answered , sed ubi sunt reliqui novem ? that eternity is all present , and that in it , there is neither preterit , nor future , is but a conceit , and a needless mysterie imposed upon our belief , which is really more mysterious then the trinity ; who knows but it is founded upon an expression in cicero , wherein eternity is call'd aeternum instans ? for how then can it be said , that god was before the world ? for was is preterit , and before the world there was , as themselves alledge , no time ; and so there was a was in eternity . is not god call'd by himself alpha and omega , first and last , the one whereof is preterite and the other future ? and it is said , rev. 16. 5. o glorious god , who art , and wast , and shalt be . and if it be answered , that this is only fitted to our capacities ; certainly , that is all is craved : for , doubtlesse there is no such reall thing , as these three measures of time , even in things finit and created ; for they ow their being only to our conceit , as well in the one as in the other . and when god descriv'd himself by his name jah i am , it was not mean't , that no measure of time could be attributed to him , but the present ; but rather , that what he was , was to man incomprehensible . and that all we could know of him , was that he existed ; and by that expression , that all things to him are present , was mean't , that by his knowledge intuitive , ( as divines terme it ) he comprehends all things which were to be , as if they were really present ; and this is spoke , not of his being , but of his knowledge . neither can it be concluded that if was or shall be , may be attributed to god , then he must be mutable , and that was , denotats mutation ; for as i said formerly , these are but termes , not really existing , and so cannot import any real mutation . how god imployes his uncontrolable scepter , after what fashion he governs this lower world , and in what characters he writs his eternal decrees , hath been the arrogant study of some mad-cap pedants , who talk as magisterially of his decrees , as if they were of his cabinet councel . and albeit to deterre such bold intruders , he destroyed thousands of his ancient people , because they look'd into his ark ; yet , such is the petulancie of some latter witts , that they must needs look in to his unsearchable bosome , and there marishall all his decrees , and conceit they understand his way of working ; and thus in disputing of objects , infinitly removed by their obstruseness from their sense , they shew themselves more ridiculous , then these who would dispute concerning the qualities of an object , before it come so near , as that they may know of what species it is : for seing it is a maxime , that there is nothing in our understanding , which hath not past to it thorow our senses , and that the things of god are immaterial , and so fall not under the cognizance of our senses ; it must be folly to think , that any humane scrutinie can find out mysteries that are so unsearchable , except they be imparted to them by immediat revelation ; a kind of correspondence which i concieve few now a dayes holds with heaven . yet , i confess , it is as hard to confute their fictions , as it is impossible for them to come by the knowledge of them . but as this study is unattainable , so it is unprofitable for seeing god's art of governing the world , and his decrees of saveing or damning its citizens is a trade we shall never be able to practise , why should we have such an itch to understand it ? it should be enough to us , to be saved , albeit we know not how , or by what manner of decrees ; except we be of the same mettal with that foolish patient , who would not be cured , because the physician would not shew him how the cure was to be composed , and what were its ingredients . and is it not the zenith and top-branch of madness for us to pry into go'ds unsearchable decrees , who know not how our neighbour's calf is formed in its dames belly ? it was a narrow omnipotency , which some mean spirit'd heathens allowed their iupiter , when they conceited that he wanted leasure to dispose of trifles . non licet exiguis rebus adesse jovi . for if the twinkling of an eye , were not time sufficient for god to dispose upon all the affairs of this world , then there might be a greater power then his ; and the power to dispose so suddainly , were wanting to his omnipotency , and so he were not infinit , and consequently no god. neither was the rodomontade of alphonsus , king of portugal , more pious then this ; when he alleadged that if god had made use of his advice in framing the world , he had helped many things in it , which he now could justly taxe of errour . these two extremes , are the two poles , whereon the globe of atheisme turns it self ; some , out of an impious humility , complementing god out of his authority , by denying that he disposes of the meaner size of business , and others detracting from his providence , in attributing his operations to chance and fate , or branding them with injustice or imprudence . there are among school-men two opinions which dispute victory with ( almost ) equal forces . the one whereof , will have god the sole agent , and to make use of secundary causes , only , as of ciphers , these say that it is not fire which burns , but that god burns ad praesentiam ignis ; nor water which cools , but that god cools ad praesentiam aquae : which is , in my opinion , the same thing as to say , that god jugl'd with man ; and as charmers do , presented ingredients , but wrought by hid means . in too near an affinity with this , is the doctrine of predestination as some teach it , wherein they will have man to play the mere spectator in his own salvation : and albeit there be a free and full tender of mercy made to lost man , yet will not allow him any power to embrace or reject it ; judging this one of the necessary appanages of god's omnipotency , that he doth save or condemn ex mero beneplacito , never considering , that the question is not , what god can do , but what he doth : and that it derogats nothing from his omnipotency , that he will not damn poor sinners , who according to their doctrine cannot be blamed for their obstinacy ; because it was never free to them to do otherwise : and how ( i pray you ) could the sluggard in the parable , have been punished , for not improving his talent , and laying it up in a napkin , i● god had by his decree cast an insolvable knot upon that napkin , wherein it was laid up ? the other opinion , will have secundary causes the sole agents ; and teaches , that god in the first moulding of each creature , did dote it with innate qualities , sufficient to act every thing requisit for its subsistence ; but in sign of its subjection to its maker , reserved to himself , as his prerogative royal , a power to bend and bow these inclinations upon extraordinary occasions , for the good of the universe , or when his infallible omni-prudence should think expedient . thus , when that alleyeing eye of the world , the sun , was first turn'd off the frame , it had in commission to sow its influences over the world without any retardment ; yet was its motion arrested , and turn'd back by an extraordinar warrand in the dayes of ioshua and zedekiah . thus they make the creatures resemble a watch , which after it is once compleated , goes by its own springs and wheels , without the artist's continual assistance . yet , when either its motion becomes irregular , or when the owner finds it fit , it is unpeec'd , or hath its index put forward or backward at his pleasure . and this last , seems to suit best with the principles , both of christianity and stoicisme . with christianity , because it gives a check to presumption , and suffers not man to think himself the sole arbiter of his own condition ; because god can easily quash these babylon-like fancies , which his topless ambition is still a building ; and to his despair , because a lift from the strong arme of providence , may heave him up above all his difficulties . this corresponds best likewayes with stoicisme , because it pulls the hands of a sluggard from his bosome and setts them awork to prepare for himself , and not to repose his unreasonable hopes upon divine providence ; which only keeps these from sinking , who endeavour to swimme . this likewayes takes from man , all excuse of sining , not suffering him to lay over his vitiousness upon providence , a shift too ordinar amongst such , as misunderstand the tashless doctrine of the reformed churches . this opinion makes us likewayes understand , what the heathens meant by fortune , which they termed giddie ; what the stoicks meant by fate , which they confessed to be irresistable ; and in what sense philosophers concluded , that each man could hammer out his own fortune . as to the pagan's fortune , it cannot be thought , that seing it was by themselves confess'd to be blind , that they could trust it with the reines of the admirably manag'd world . and seing they confess'd , that it was alwayes stagering and unconstant , it cannot be thought that they could ascrive to it , all these curious and just events , which they themselves admired hourly . wherefore it is probable , that the philosophers , having through the prospect of nature , and by an uninterrupted experience , observed , that man ( who acted from a freedom of spirit unrestrained , either by providence or starr-influences as to his ordinar operations ) was of a volatile and capricious humour ; therefore they concluded , that the state of humane affairs , which was framed and unframed at his ill-fixt pleasure , behoved necessarily to be most subject to changes . and that seing the victories of cesar , depended upon the inclinations of his souldiers , who by abandoning him , would fetch his prosperity away with them : they had reason therefore to terme his fortune frail and exposed to hazard . thus the advancement of the restless courtier is uncertain , because it hings from the humor of his prince , whose spirit hath some allay of unconstancy , as well as hath that of the fearfull subject , who trembls under his scepter . and thus the oyl-consuming student , can promise himself no applause , because the paralytick hand of the multitudes fancies , holds the scales wherein his abilities are weighed . in fine , fortune was nothing to these ancients , but the unbodyed freedom of man's will , considered abstractly from all particular persons and the innate qualities of all other creatures , ( which , because they are mortal , must therefore be changable ) then which nothing is more inconstant , nothing more blind . the other branch of divine providence , which consists in the supreme authority , whereby god makes all humane inclinations run sometime against the byasse of their specifick nature , was by them termed fate . and this in their mythologie they fabled to be an adamant chain , which they fastned to the foot of iupiter's chair , meaning by its adamantine nature , that it was hard to be brok like the adamant ; and by fastning it to iupiter's chair , that it was the product of the almighty's power . thus fortune and fate , were to them but the right and left hands of christian providence . these embodyed angels , the stoicks , finding that fortunes megrim could not be cured , nor fates decrees rescinded , and yet resolving , in spight of all external accidents , to secure to themselves a calmness of spirit ; did place their happiness in the contempt of all these follies , whose blossomes fortune could not blast , and sought for happiness in an acquiescence to all which providence did unalterably decree ; so that neither fortune nor fate could stand in the way of their happiness , because they slighted the one , and submitted to the other . and in this sense , each man in their schools , was admitted to be master-of-work to his own fortune : and that without disparaging the omnipotent power of the great fortune-maker , in submission to whom their happiness was plac'd . albeit the knowledge and acknowledgment of a god , be the basis of true stoicisme , and a firmer one then any the heathens could pretend to ; yet , that knowledge of him , which by the curiosity of school-men and the bigotrie of tub-preachers , as now formed in a body of divinity , is of all others the least necessary and the most dangerous . and whereas we did see god but in a glass formerly , that glass is now so misted and soyl'd by each pedant's flegmatick breath , that it is hard to see him at all , but impossible to see him there . and to extend a little that mysterious analogy ; we are said to behold god here , as in a glass , and as objects are best percieved in the smoothest mirrors ; so the plainest descriptions of him , are still the truest : for when he is seen by atheists in the globe-glass of their infidelity , he appears less then really he is , when beheld by the pagans in the multiplying glass of paganisme , he appears many ; and when he is look't upon in the magnifying glass of superstition , though he appear but one , yet he is misrepresented , because he is represented , as more terrible then he desires to appear : and ordinarily the better cut glasses are , and the more artificiall , the worse the face is by them represented . that first curse which did sowe all the world with briers and thorns , did , of all other things , fall most heavily upon the soul of man. which because it was chief in the transgression , ought in reason to have been most tortured in the punishment . and now his disquieted spirit , is daily pierc'd with the prickles of thornie disputes and debates : which , as like briers , they produce no fruit fit for alimenting that noble half of man , which is his rational soul ; so do they , like thorns , pierce his tender conscience , and to screw his torments to their highest pinn ; the thoughts of god , and of settlment in him , which like balme should cure these sores , is become that hemlock , which occasions his distractions , and poysons his meditations . for , albeit the heroes of the primitive church , did give milk in abundance to infant-christians ; yet , many of their successors , have mixt it so with the tart vinegar of contention , that that milk beginns now to crudle , and so is become loathsome to the appetite of tender believers . for , most of church-men , being idle , and concieving , that if they taught only the holy scriptures , their vocation might by laicks be undervalued as easy ; and that they would be denyed that applause , which was due to quaintnesse of wit , especially in a setled church , wherein church-men could not draw reverence from the people , by oracles , as did the heathen priests ; nor by prophecies and miracles , as did the servants of the most high , under the old and new testaments . did therefore , according to their private inclinations , frame each to himself a new kind of divinity . the more pragmatick sort , and these whose humour was edged with choler , invented polemick or controverted divinity . and so by an intestine and civil war of opinions ▪ raised within the bowels of religion ; did waste and pillage that holy canaan , which formerly slowed with the milk of sincere doctrine , and the honey of divine consolations . and then , that precious blood , which formerly purpled only pagan-scaffolds , dyed now the swords of fellow-believers : who , to propagate their private judgment , buried churches under their rubbish , fed the birds of heaven with the carcases of pious and reverend church-men ; and by the mad hands of bigott opiniastrity , brok to pieces all the sacred bonds of natural and civil duties : and thus they raised the devil of contention , whom they could not lay again ; and made this itch of disputing , turn the scab of the church . others again , in whose brains sullen melancholy , form'd phantomes and ideas , invented scolastick theology ; and these , in abstract cells , erected a mint-house for coyning the dross of their own contemplations , into wonderfull bombast notions : and to make them go current , in the suffering church , gave them the impressa of theology . a third sort , not able to soare their pitch in the sky of invention , resolved to set up a correspondence with heaven : and this they called enthusiastick , or inspired , theology . and their cabbins were post-houses , where one might know what was resolved lately in the conclave of heaven , whether the king or parliament was to wear the lawrels , and what should be the issue of our pious rebellions . these could likewise cast the horoscop of your salvation ; and invented a species of physiognomy , whereby they could tell if the marks of grace dwelt upon a face , and if one had the traicts of an elect child of god. after this fashion did they prophesie their own fancies , and call that providence only which made for them . there wants not some likewayes , who , out of a well meaning desire , to make the lamp of truth darte its rayes with the clearer splendor , snuff it so nearly , that they extinguish it quyt : and leavs us nothing but the stink of its snuff ; like some curious physicians , who purge so frequently , that they destroy the body entrusted to their cure . we in this island have met with some of these charletans , who , i am confident , purged oftner both church and state , then luke , the beloved physician , would have prescrived , if we had had the good fortune to have been his patients . the talest witt is not able to reach heaven , albeit ( i know ) many disjoint their witts in stretching them too high in the inquiry of its mysteries . neither impute i our short-coming in the knowledge of these mysteries , solly to their obstrusness ; but , i believe , our meditations are more clouded in relation to these , then really they need to be , because of their innate frailty : for we see , that some who are masters of much reason in things humane , betray much solly in their devotions : wherefore ▪ i am induced to believe , that it fares with the soul in this , as usually it doth with the body , whose pulls are proportionally the weaker , as the thing grasp'd-after is plac'd above its true reach . and so these arrogant pretenders pull but faintly , because they raise their meditations too high on their tip-toes : whereby they are disabl'd from imploying all their naturall vigour , in pulling at these weighty and sublime truths , which they catch , not by that corner which is nearest , as meanner witts do , ( and so are more successfull ) but endeavour a fetch at what in divinity is highest , by which effort , their endeavours are fainter , then these whose spirit is of a lesser size . and these colossus witts , become the greatest hereticks , as these ordinarily are most burnt , whose fingers oftest stir up fires , and as chirurgians have moe cuts and wounds , then any other mechanicks , who handle not so oft these wounding tools . it is not fit that mortal man should wrestle too much with these mysteries , least his reason , like iacob , be forc'd to come off , halting . nothing hath more busied my thoughts , then to find a reason why the heathens , who were as assiduous and zealous too in the worship of their gods , as we christians , did never frequent sermons , nor knew no such part of divine service ; whereof ( probably ) the reason was because their governors ( whose commands amongst them were the sole jure-divinoship of all ecclesiastick rites ) feared , that church-men , if they had been licenc'd to harangue to the people , would have influenc'd too much that gross body : which was the reason likewayes , why in the primitive church ( as one of their historians observes ) ex formula populo praedicabant , tantum antiquitas timebat 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . they preached only approved sermons , so much did antiquity fear these leaders of the people , a practice , as is reported , lately renewed by the duke of russia : and this seemeth also to have been the reason , why all liturgies have prick't texts for their preachers , lest if they had been left a freedom in their choice , they had chose such as might , in the letter , have suited best with such seditious libels as are now obtruded upon the people , in lieu of pious homilies , at remarkable or festival occasions . yet , i think , that our late doctors , who can find all doctrine in any text , would easily have eluded that canonick designe . if we should parallel the homilies , which these renowned fathers have left , as legacies , to posterity , with these which our age runs after , we would find , that the first were pointed lessons of mortification ; which , like moses rod , could draw gushes of tears from the rocky hearts of the most obdured sinners ; whereas many of these last are but state-gazets , wherein the people are informed , what are the resolves of the civil magistrate : and whereas their first institution made them ambassadors of glad-tydings betwixt god and his people , they have made themselves heraulds , to denounce warres betwixt god's vice-gerent and his subjects . thus , peter's successors will oft times , like himself , rather draw the sword then watch for their master . and since our saviour hath disarmed them , as he did peter , and filled their hands with the keyes , these who offend them are sure to get over the head with these . i confesse , god hath not left his church without some skilfull pilots , to lead in his servants , with security , to the harbour of salvation : to whom this discourse and it's author shall pay all respects . most of all churches do , like coy maids , lace their bodies so strait , that they bring on them a consumption ; and will have the gates of heaven to have been only made for themselves : and as this nigardliness hath possest churches , so from that root hath stem'd the churlishness of some private christians , who will allow god but a most inconsiderable number of these whom he hath admitted to make up his visible church . thus , some pastors will only admit two or three to be guests at the lord's table , allowing no wedding garment , but what is of their own spinning : and others , with their uncharitable hands , blut the names of all their acquaintances out of the books of life , as if they were keepers of his registers and rolls ; and will only have seats kept in the church , triumphant , for three or four sisters , who are so srugal of their devotions , as to spare them at home , to the end , they may be liberal in publick . but both these should consider , that the new ierusalem is said to have moe gates then one ; that iohn in his revelation tells us , that numberless numbers were seen following the lamb ; and that it is not probable , that the wise framer of the world made such a spacious dwelling as heaven , to be inhabited by so inconsiderable a number : whereas hell ( in the geography of believed tradition ) is only the small kernel of this small shell the earth . i know , that many are called and few chosen ; and that the way is strait , and few enter in at it : but we should consider , that these chosen , are said to be few , in respect only of these many who are called . which is most certain ; for ten parts of eleven are pagans or mahumetans , ( and all are called ) of that elevnth part , many are malitious hereticks ; and amongst the residue many are flagitious and publick sinners ; so that albeit the greatest part of the regular members of the visible church were sav'd , yet the number would be small in comparison of these others : the body of the visible church , must ( like all other bodies ) be compounded of contrary elements . and albeit i am not of opinion , that this body should be suffer'd to swell with humours , yet i would not wish , that it should be macerated with purgations . it 's nails ( though but excrementitious parts ) should not be so nearly pair'd , as that the body may bleed ; yet , they should be so pared , as that christians may not scratch one another . they should feed , not upon blood , but milk : and they are unmannerly guests , who will not suffer others to sit at their masters table with them . it pleases my humour to contemplat , how , that albeit all religions war against one another ; yet , are all of them governed by the same principles , and even by these principles , in effect , which they seem to abominat . thus , albeit the cessation of miracles be cryed down by many , yet , do the most bigot relate , what miracles have been wrought by the founders of their hierarchies , and what prophesies they have oraculously pronounced . and seing all confess , that god , in our dayes , breaks the prosperous upon the same wheel , on whose top they did but lately triumph ; making fortune adopt the opprest in their vice ; why should we talk so much of the ceasing of miracles ? for , doubtless , these effects are in policy , as contrair to nature , as are the swimming of iron , or sweetning of rivers ; or rather more : seing in the first , mans will is forc'd ( without which , such revolutions could not be effectuated ) whereas in the last , dull and sensual qualities are only wrested : which , as they are not so excellent , so , doubtless , are not able to make such resistance as the soul of man : yea , i should rather think , that the world being become old , must , doubtless , be more dim-sighted ( as all old things are ) then formerly ; and therefore , god doth now present greater objects of admiration to our eyes then he did formerly : for , man is become so atheisticall , that if god did not presse his meditations with such infallible testimonies of the being of an irresistable power , he would , doubtless , shake of all resolutions of submitting . thus , we see that in all the tract of iohn's revelations , miracles grow still more frequent , the nearer the world draweth to it's grave ; and , like all other bodies , the weaker it becomes , the more subject it is to all alterations , and the less is nature able to resist . and it would appear , that if miracles were requisit at first , for the establishment of religion , even when no older religion was to cede to it , and to make an exit at it's entry ; much more , should miracles be necessar , for fixing any religion against the received constitutions of a previously settled church . but to prosecute my first design , it is remarkable , that albeit infallibility be not by all , conceded to any militant church ; yet , it is assumed by all : neither is there any church under the sun , which would not fix the name of heretick , and account him ( almost ) reprobat , who would refuse to acknowledge the least rational of their principles : and thus these church-men pull up the ladders from the reach of others , after they have by them scal'd the walls of preferment themselves . that church-men should immerse themselves in things civil , is thought excentrick to their sphere , even in ordine ad spiritualia : and yet , even the capuchins , who are the greatest pretenders to abstract christianity and mortification , do , of all others , dipth most in things civil . the phanaticks enveigh against presbyterian gowns . the presbyterian tears the episcopal lawn sleeves , and thinks them the whore of babel's shirt . the episcopist slouts at the popish robes , as the livery of the beast . the antinomian emancipats his disciples from all obedience to the law. the protestant enjoyn good works , and such are commanded , but place no merit in them . the roman-catholick thinks he merits in his obedience . the phanatick believs the lords supper but a ceremony , though taken with very little outward respect . the presbyterian allowes it , but will not kneel . the episcopist kneels , but will not adore it . the catholick mixeth adoration with his kneeling . and thus , most of all religions are made up of the same elements , albeit their asymbolick qualities predomine in some more then in others . and if that maxime hold , that majus & minus non variant speciem , we may pronounce all of them to be one religion . the church , like the river nilus , can hardly condescend where it's head lyes ; and as all condescend that the church is a multitude of christians , so joyn all their opinions , and you shall find that they will have it to have , like the multitude , many heads . but in this ( as in all articles , not absolutely necessar for being saved ) i make the laws of my countrey to be my creed : and that a clear decision herein is not absolutely necessar for salvation , is clear from this , that many poor clowns shall be saved , whose conscience is not able to teach their judgments how to decide this controversie , wherein so many heads have been confounded , so many have been lost , and so many have been shrewdly knockt against one another ; from which flinty collisions , much fire , but little light , hath ever burst forth . god , by his omniscience , foreseeing , that it was too dazleing a sight for the pur-blind eyes of man's soul , to behold him invironed with the rayes of divine majesty , did bestow upon us , three mirrours , wherein we might contemplat him ( as we use to look upon the sun in a tub of water , not daring eye his native splendor ) the one was the mirrour of the law , the second is the works of the creation , and the third is the soul of man , which he himself hath told us is framed after his own glorious image . as for the first mirrour , the law ; god knowing that instinct , or as we terme it , a natural conscience , were compleat digests of all that man was to observe ▪ he did make that mirrour very little , a volumne of only two pages ; but that mirrour is , of late , so mullered about , by marginal notes and commentars , that the mirrour it self is almost over-spread by them ; and it is very observable , that in the holy registers , the law is still abridged , but we never see it enlarg'd : for , albeit the fundamental laws of both tables were packed up in narrow bounds , yet our saviour sums them in these two , fear the lord thy god with all thy heart , and , love thy neighbour as thy self . and the apostle paul , in his divine epistles , professes , that he desires to know only christ , and him crucified : so , that i am confident , that if our saviour were to preach in person , once more to the world , he would enveigh against our casuists , as much as he did against the jewish talmudists ; for , the one as well as the other , are equally guilty of burdening the shoulders of weak christians , with the unnecessary trash of humane inventions . for , i remember to have seen a late casuist , dispute contentiously amongst his other cases , whither tobacco , taken in the morning , did break a commanded fast or not ? to which , after a feaverish conflict , his wisdom , forsooth , returns this oraculous answer ; that if tobacco be taken at the nose , it breaks not the fast , but if it be taken at the mouth , then it breaks the fast . which , because i made a collasterion betwixt the casuists and the talmudists , i shall only mention out of the talmude ( which was the iews comment upon the law ) a case , exactly parallel to this : wherein is decided , that if a man carry a burden on the sabbath day , upon both his shoulders , then he is guilty of breach of sabbath , but that he is not guilty if he carry it upon one shoulder . as to my own private judgment , ( which i submitt to my spiritual tutors ) i think , that seing the conscience of man , is the same faculty with the judgment when conversant about spiritual imployments ( as the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which imports a knowledge reflexive upon a man 's own self , doth abundantly evidence ) that therefore , as there are judgments of different tempers ; so there are likewise consciences of different frames : and which vary as much amongst themselves , as natural constitutions do . and therefore , as the same dose would prove noxious to one constitution , wherein another would find his health ; so in one and the same act , that resolution may be saving to one conscience , which may condemn another : for , seing god hath kindled a torch in each mans breast , by whose flame he may see what path he should beat . in which sense it is said , prov. 20. 27. that the understanding of man is the candle of the lord ; and can that light mislead ? and seing man must be answerable according to what it prescrives to him , doubtless it is fitter that he should hearken to the reiterated dictates of his conscience , than to the resolution of any school-casuist : and that for the same reason , that it is more rational to obey the law it self , than the wisest lawier , who may either be deceived himself , or have a design to deceive others . for if god hath endued man with every thing necessary for working out the work of his own salvation , with fear and trembling , he hath doubtless bestowed upon him an internal touch-stone , by whose test he may discern betwixt good and evil ; seing to command man to walk uprightly , and not to bestow on him eyes to see the road , were to command a blind man to walk , and to punish him if he went astray . and as the composure of man's body , would be imperfect and manck , if he wanted a palate to discern bewixt the tast of what is wholsome , or what is putrid ; so if the soul of man were not able to know its own duty , and by the palate of a natural conscience , to difference betwixt lawfull and unlawfull : certainly the soul might be thought to be but ill appointed . thus , beasts are by an intrinsick principle taught their duty , and do accordingly shun or follow what is convenient for them , without consulting any thing from without . and shall man be less perspicacious , or more defective then these ? as also seing man is oftimes by thousands of occasions , removed far from the assistance of chair or pulpit-informers ; and in that his retiredness , hath most of these cases to be resolved : it were absurd to think that he then wants sufficiency of help for their resolution . and it is most observable in scripture , that men are oft check'd for quenching the spirit , but never for not consulting casuists . i know it may be thought , that when the soul of man rages at sometime in a feaver of lust , revenge , or some such sin , that then the conscience may rave ; yet i dare say , that albeit the soul , out of an inordinat desire to enjoy its own pleasures , may set its invention a work , to palliat the sinfulness of what it desires ; yet by some secret knell , the conscience sounds still its reproof . and i dare say , that never man erred without a check from his conscience ; nor that ever any sinned , after an approbation obtained from his conscience of what he was about : and when we assent to these doctors , is it not because our consciences , or our judgments ( which are the same ) assent , to what they inform ? which evidences , that our consciences are more to be believed , then they , by that rule , propter quod unumquodque est tale , &c. but to convince us of the folly of our addresses to these doctors . it may , and often doth fall out , that that may be a sin in me , which a casuist pronounces to be none , as if my breast did suggest to me , that it were a sin to buy church-lands ; if thereafter i did buy them , it were doubtless a sin , albeit my doctors , following the canons of their particular church , assured me , that the sale of church-lands were no sin in it self . i am confident then , that this casuist divinity , hath taken its rise from the desire church-men had to know the mysterie of each man's breast , and to the end , nothing of import , might be undertaken without consulting their cell ; perswading men , that in ordine ad spiritualia , their consciences , and consequently their salvation , may be interested in every civil affair . and to confirm this , it is most observable , that this trade is most used by iesuits and innovators , who desire to know all intrigues and subvert all states , whereas the primitive church knew no such divinity , neither hath its doctors left any such volumns . it may be urged , that seing the conscience is but a reflex act of the judgment , that as the judgment is an unsure guid , the conscience cannot pretend to be infallible ; and that the one , as well as the other , is tutor'd by the fallacious principles of sense and custom : and i my self have seen my lands-lady , in france , as much troubled in conscience for giving us flesh to eat in lent , as if she had cast out the flesh of a christian to be devoured by dogs ; and so atheisme may attribute to custom , these inclinations whereby we are acted-on to believe a deity ; and may tell us , that the mahumetans find themselves as much prickt in conscience , for transgressing their prophets canons , as we for offending against the moral law. and thus the adoring of a deity might have at first been brooded in the councilchamber of a states-mans head , and yet might have been , at that time by the vulgar , and thereafter by the wisest pates , worshipped with profound respects : yet , if we pry narrowly into this conceit , we shall find in it something of instinct previous to all forgeries possible . for , what was it ( i pray you ) which encouraged , or suggested to these politicians , that such a thing as the deity might be dissembled to their people for their imposing that cheat , presupposed some pre-existing notion of it ? or , how entred that fancie first in their wild heads ? or , how could so many contemporary , and yet far distant , legislators , fall upon the same thoughts , especialy , it being so remote from sense ; and for framing of which idea , their experience could never furnish a pattern ? conscience then must be something else then the fumes of melancholy , or , capricio's of fancie ; for else , roaring gallants , who are little troubled , or can easily conquer all other fancies , would not be so haunted by these pricking pangs ; which if they were not infallibly divine , behooved to be meerly ridiculous , and to want all support from reason or experience . there is another fyle of cases of conscience , which is a cadet of that same family ; and these are such cases as were the brood of these late times , which , like infects and unclean creatures , may be said generari ex putri materiâ : an instance whereof , was that famous sister , who ask'd if she was oblidg'd to execute her catt for killing a mouse upon the sabbath . this was a theology , taught by old dotting wives , and studied by state-expectants , who , to gain applause , and in hope to mount preferment 's sadle , made use of this gilded stirrop . i shall not inveigh against this foppery , seing it hath not possest mens conceit so long , as to have prescrived the tittle of divinity ; but , like a meteor , which , because it is fixt to no orbe , and is but a mass of inflamed vapours , doth therefore disappear immediatly , how soon its substance flashes out ; and its ashes are now entomb'd in the same clay with its brother twain , that pious non-sense , wherein god almighty was treated with in familiar and not in superiour . as god did light the candle of a private conscience , in each private breast ; so hath he hung up the lamp of the scriptures , in the body of his church ; and these we may call the conscience of the church , whilst triumphant . which some , by the breath of their vanity , and stormes of their passion , endeavour to blow out , whilst others , make no other use of its light , then to shew them where to find a jest . and within the armes of this division , ly folded , all the prophane race of mankind . as to these first ( who should be first , because they are sathan's first-born , and so deserve a double portion of this reproof ) they contend , that the scriptures are writen in a mean and low stile ; are in some places too mysterious , in others too obscure ; contain many things ineredible , many repetitions , and many contradictions . but these miscreants should consider , that much of the scriptures native splendor is impared by its translators , who , fearing to fall within the verge of the curse pronounced against such as should pair from , or adde to , any thing contained in that divine book , were , and are willing , that their translation should want rather the lustre , then meaning of the original . as also of all tongues , i believe the hebrew admits least of a translation ; especially into northern languages : for as these nations differ least in their expressions , who , because of their commerce or contiguity , have the most frequent converse . so doubtless ▪ the iews and we , by this rule , should in language hold the least correspondence . and because there is no pure fountain of this tongue left , besides the bible , it must be hard to understand its expressions , wherein the translators can find little or no help from the variety and collation of authors . and seing this book was penn'd indifferently , for all ages , nations and sexes , it was sit that its stile should have been condescending : for these who are tall , can pull the fruit which hangs low , whereas these who are low , cannot pull what pearch's high . and it is very observable , that where the fruit is greatest and ripest , there the branch whereon it hangs , bowes lowest . when god appeared to elijah , kings 19. there came first a terrible wind , thereafter a great earthquake , and then fire ; and yet god was in none of these , but spoke in the shrill small voice . his divine providence hath so order'd it , that our conviction cannot be ascrib'd to the fard of eloquence nor slight of logick , but merely to the truth of what is therein represented : our saviour , will with clay and spitle , illuminate our eyes , as he did these of the other blind man in the gospel . and such is the strength of his divine arme , that he can vanquish sathan , misbelief and ignorance with any weapon . and as we think the sun's circumference but little , because it is situated so far above us ; so we conclude these truths and excellencies but mean , because they are plac'd above our frail reach , and will blame the scriptures , when the fault lurks in our selves , that great physician will cure us , like an artist , with simples , specifick for our disease , and not like a charletan , with perfumed and gilded nothings . it is not allwayes the best mettal , which carries the pleasingest impressa ; nor doth the painted candle cast the clearest light . there are many things in scripture , which because of our frailty , appear ( like a staff in the waters ) to be crooked , albeit they be streight . why abraham should have kill'd his son isaac ; or the israelites have borrowed and not restored the egyptian ear-rings , staggers not my belief : for these belong'd to god , and neither to abraham , nor the egyptians : and so god might have given order to any he pleased to recieve them : and these who obey'd , were no more guilty , then such are , who by order from the master , recieve what he did formerly lend to others . and as to its repetitions ▪ they differ , no doubt , from one another ; albeit we ( who think all things removed , though by a little distance from us , of one shape ) judge ill , in judging otherwayes . and as an excellent person hath well observed , god hath appointed these reiterated expressions , to be as so many witnesses , to convince hereticks and others , who should call the meaning of any one place in question , or wrest it by what preceeds or followes it . as to these others , in whom the wine of god's consolations , ( by being winded in the crackt vessels of their heads ) turns into the tart vinegar of prophane satyres , i condole their condition : for , that stomach must be very corrupt , wherein the best of aliment putrifies most ; and probably , that indigested milk , being converted in excrementitious bile and humours , may cast them in a feaver which shall never cool to all eternity . i pity likewayes these , who , out of an in-advertent ( and as they think , sinless ) humour , jest with these divine truths ; like foolish children , who love rather to sport with their meat then eat it . these , albeit they intend not to prophane scripture , yet , they vilifie it : and we may say of the bible as of taking of god's name in our mouths , which must not only , not be done upon design , to blaspheme and diffame him ; but must not be taken but upon necessity , and , like the shew-bread , must be used only when we are in straits . i have been too guilty of this last sin my self ; and therefore , least i should make no attonement , i have rather resolved to appear before the world , in the dust and sackcloath of this silly discourse , a pennance , really , to me very great . when i consider how various and innumerable are the actions of men , and that in all these , they need particular instructions from above the poles , i admire why there are so many passages in scripture , from which our necessity may expect no assistance . and therefore , least i should think , that in scripture there is any waste of words , i am induced to believe , that there run 〈…〉 allegory in that holy book from genesis to iohn's revelation , and that it 's mystical sense is that which deserves the name of god's word . might we not have admired why the story of hagar and her bastard is there voluminously descrived , and what the church or private devotion was concerned therein , if paul , gal. 4. 24. had not discovered the mystery to us ? by which things , another thing is meant : for , these two mothers are the two testaments , the one which is agar , of mount sinai , which gendereth into bondage , &c. i might here relate many excellent allusions to prove this , but i shall satisfie my self with one which i did read in one doctor ever●t ; who , preaching upon ioshua , 15. 16. then caleb said , he who smiteth kirjath-sepher and taketh it , even to him will i give achsah my daughter to wife . and othniel took it , &c. saith , that caleb signifies a good heart , kirjath-sepher the city of the letter , achsah the vision , othniel god's opportunity . and so the mystical sense runs , a good heart saith , that whoever will take in ( and smite , as moses did the rock ) the letter of the word , shall have the vision which lurks under it discovered and given to him . and god's own time is the only mean for accomplishing this : as also , it is most remarkable , that that city which was called cirjath-sepher before it was taken in , or , the city of the letter , was , after it was conquered , called debi● , which signifies an oracle ; so that the word or letter is no oracle , till it be once , as it were , taken in and overcome . since the reading of which sermon , i believe that one may profit more by an hebrew lexicon , then by a thousand english lectures . these who detract from scripture , by attributing the production of miracles , to natural causes , do not much disparage the power of god , but ( though against their depraved intention ) cry rather up his omnipotency : for certainly , if these miracles were produced by secondary causes , then doubtless , that productive faculty was bestowed upon them by the almighty ; and if he can make the creatures produce such strange effects , much more is he able to effectuate them himself ; as it is more difficult , for a great master , to form curious and admirable characters when he leads a schollars hand , then when he writes them with his own ; for , such help may be called resisting assistance . i cannot likewise but blame many of our preachers , who rather break then open holy texts ; and rather make new meanings , suiting with their private designes , then tell the meaning of the spirit . who would not have laugh'd to hear a presbyterian observe , from the first chapter of genesis , first verse , that whilst moses relates what god made , he speaks nothing of bishops ; by which it was evident ( said don quixot's chaplain ) that bishops were not of divine institution : a conceit as ridiculous as that of a priest , who hearing maria spoken of for to signifie seas , did brag that he had found the virgine mary named in the old testament . albeit i think preaching no part of divine worship , hearing being no adoration ; yet , love i to go to church , were it but to see a multitude met together , to confess that there is a god : but , when i go to hear i care not whom , knowing that christ elected fisher-men to preach down infidelity , when it was in the ●uff of it's pride : and that paul ( the most signal trophe of our christian faith ) was sent for confirmation , not to peter or iames at ierusalem , but to ananias , one of the meanest amongst the disciples . and seing our salvation , by preaching , is a miracle ; it is still so much the greater by how much weaker the instruments are . when the pulpit was a mount sinai , from which the law was thundered , or a mount of o lives , whereon our saviour's glorious transformation was to be seen , then were sermons to be honoured ; but , since it is become a mount calvar , whereon our blessed saviour suffers daily , by scandalous railings , sermons are now become unfavoury for the most part . i hate to see that divine place made either a bar , whereat secular quarrels are , with passion , pleaded ; or a stage , whereon revenge is , by satyres , satisfied ; or , a school-chair , from which un-intelligible questions are mysteriously debated ; but amongst all these innovations , introduced by our infant divines . i hate none more then that of giving reasons for proving the doctrine , which being scripture it self , can be proven by nothing that is more certain . as for instance , when the doctrine is , that god loved us freely , how can this be proven more convincingly then thus , my text sayes it : and that is idem p●r idem , a most unlogical kind of probation . when i then go to church , i should love to spend my time in praises and prayers ; which as they are the only parts of adoration , so are they the natural imployments of the church , either militant or triumphant : yet , it displeases me to hear our young pulpitires skrich and cry , like baal's priests , as if god were no nearer them then the visible heavens . it honours much our imployment , that god almighty was the first and great law-giver ; and that our blessed saviour stiles himself our advocat . and it is an amazing wonder that we are tyed only by ten laws ; whereof seven were enacted doubtless for our advantage and respect , more immediatly the security of the creature then the honour of the creator , and are such restraints as men behoved to have laid upon one another , and which nature layes upon us all . and albeit i laugh at the jewish cabala , which sayes , that the moral law was written , two thousand years before moses , in black letters , at the back of a clear burning fire : yet , can i not approve tertullian's wit , who endeavours to find all these ten in the prohibition made to adam . there are indeed some sins which scarce a consequence can bring within the verge of these commandments . as for instance , drunkenness : yet , these are such as are so destructive to our nature , that there needs no law be made against them . so that the priest hit wittily , to whom that sin being confess'd , enjoyned as an pennance , their being drunk a second time ; which makes me conclude , that if drunkenness were to be ranged under any of these laws , it would fal most naturally under that , thou shalt not kill . albeit the fourth commandment seems to respect only the honour of god , and that the creature seems to be no wayes bettered by it : yet , our more serious observation will discover , that all be-labouring creatures , as it were , expect an ease the seventh day more then any other . whether it be , that nature is by custom framed to that expectation , i cannot tell : but , we see that god choic'd that number to be the year of jubile amongst his own people , and that it is the period of all the several consistencies in our life , infancie , pubertie , &c. and for this reason physicians observe , that the child born in the seventh moneth is stronger then that which is born in the eight ; because in the seventh it is come to a knot , by passing whereof , in the eight it is in a state of imperfection : but , what the mystery of this holy climaterick is , i refer till we come to that sabbath of rest , whereat we ordinarly arrive , after seven times nine years hath snowed upon us . we may think , that if god had intended , that one and the same day of the week should have been appropriated to have been a sabbath , he had designed each day by a special terme , and had commanded , that a day of such a designation , should have been sequestrated for a sabbath ; and that by designing only the seventh day he did leave a liberty to employ any day of the seven for that use . yet , it is remarkable , that mosos nor the jewish church durst not attempt the change of their new-years day ; but that the almighty was pleased to bestow a peculiar sanction upon that alteration : for , exod. 12. 2. he commands , that the moneth wherein the israelites came from egypt , should be , by them , reputed the first moneth of their year . wherefore , seing each nation chalks out a divers sabbath , it would appear that there is something of humour in it as well as of religion . the venerious mahumetan chooseth friday , or , dies veneris ; the dull iew dull saturn's day ; the warlick parthians tuesday , or , mars-day ; the cheery europeans sunday . and albeit the christians are influenc'd only by inspiration ; yet , i am confident , that the heathens did follow that for religion , which suited best with their natural temper . but this is a meditation which should travel no where beyond a mans private breast , lest it meet with enmity and beget scandal . it would puzle a heathen much to hear , that he who breaks one of these laws , is guilty of the breach of all : but , it troubles not me , seing all these laws are made to shew our obedience , and the breach of any one of them shewes our contempt of him who is the author of all . and it may be this was typified in moses's breaking both tables with one passionat fling , after he came down from the mount : for , if this breaking of them had not been pre-design'd for some hid end ▪ doubtless he had been reproved for his negligence . however , we may from this learn the desperate nature of passion , which made moses , who was the meekest man upon earth , break all the laws of god in one act . it might be also argued , that seing all the laws of the second table were enacted for , and respect ultimatly , the advantage of man , that where man is not wronged , there the law cannot be broke . and thus , if a married man should have liberty from his wife to take another woman , this could be no more reputed adultery , then it could be reputed theft to take what belongs to our neighbour , himself consenting ; and that for this cause , iacob's begetting children with his wifes maids , is not in scripture reproved as adultery , because they were given to him by her self for that effect : but , seing the practice of all the world condemns this conclusion , far be it from me to press it further . albeit the judicial law ( which may be justly called the judicious law ) is commonly reputed to be but the municipal law of the jews ; yet , seing it was thundered from mount sinai with so much pomp , and is ingrost in the books of holy truth , and seems nearlier related to reason then any other law , i admire why it should not be religiously observed by all nations : especially seing , as it is , the exactest picture of justice that ever was drawn , so it hath this of a picture in it , that it seems to look directly upon all who behold it , albeit they be placed ( amongst themselves ) in directly opposite , situations and stances . thus this law suits even with contrary tempers , and the unequal complexions of all nations . i know that the ceremonial law is likewayes insert amongst the other holy canons , and yet binds not us who live under the jurisdiction of the gospel : but , the reason of this seems to be , because these did immediatly concern the jewish church , and were conversant about these holy things . and so , seing the old testament is a description of their hierarchy , and of god's way of working in these times , i wonder not to see these ceremonies amidst other sacred truths , and yet not observed , seing they are expresly abrogat . but , if the judicial law , which respected not the hierarchy of that church , was obligatour only whilst the jewish state was in being , i admire why the spirit of god took so much pains , first to penn it , and then to deliver it so canon-like to posterity . and since it is a principle in law and reason , that laws must still stand in vigor till they be expresly abrogat , and must not be derogated from by consequences or presumptions , i admire why this law , which god hath enervat by no express text , should be now look'd upon as statutes nowise a-la-mode . it is true , that our saviour , when the woman , convicted of adultery , was brought to him , did not , according to that law , pronounce the sentence of death against her ; whence some think , that church-men , following their masters example , should not give their suffrage in criminal cases , and have only 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a bloodless jurisdiction ; for , they are appointed to be nurses , not chyrurgions . but , it is as true , that our saviour professed in all the tract of his life , that he came not to be a judge in things temporal , and his design in that place was only to convince them of their own sinnes , and not to absolve her , not to abrogat the law : and therefore he desired him who was freest from sin , to cast the first stone at her . and whereas it is conjectured , that these words which our saviour stoop'd down to write in the clay , immediatly thereafter was an abrogation of that law ; this is a geomancy more wilde then any lesson which is alledged to have been read in the mysterious face of heaven , and should never be taught but in a rabbies cabalastick gown . and whereas it is alledged , that there are many precepts in that corpus iuris , which respects only the humor of the jews , i admire why that can be urged ; for certainly , theft , murder , and these other crimes punished there , are the same crimes which reigns amongst us ; and so why not punishable after that same manner ? neither are the humors of these jews more different from ours , then was the genius of the romans ; and yet , few or no nations refuse to cast their modern laws in that antique mould . and it is very probable , that as god did , in the moral law , teach man how to be just in his own actions , so he would likewayes instruct him by a judicial law , how to administrate justice to others . what can perpetuate a law more then that the authority whereby it is enacted should be obligatory in all ages , and the reason whereon it is founded should be eternal ? and in what laws do these two qualities appear more , or so much , as in the judicial laws of the jews , where the eternal law-giver was legislator , and the occasion , productive of them seemed rational ( and necessar ) to his infallible omniscience ? and if in any of these statutes , our purblind judgments cannot see a present conveniency , we should rather impute that to our own simplicity , then charge it as a guilt upon his divine statutes ; and are there not many municipal laws in each country , which have no hedge about them to keep them untrampled upon by wanton and too curious wits ? but , that excellent maxime , omnium quae fererunt majores nostri , non est reddenda ratio , ne que certa sunt , incerta redderentur ; a reason must not be rendred for all that our ancestors have enacted , lest what is now certain , become then uncertain . albeit a law enacted only by humane authority , seem unreasonable or inconvenient ; yet , it retains it's vigor till it be abrogat by the same , or a higher authority , then that whereby it was first statuted ; and the law sayes , that nihil est tam naturale quam unumquodque eodem modo dissolvi quo colligatum est . and , seing the moral and judicial laws are twisted so together , and are oft incorporated in one statute , as levit. 20. 10. deut. 22. 22. where adultery is forbidden , and the adulterer is to die the death : how can we think the one half of this law obligatory for ever , and yet neglect it 's other half , wherein the punishment is specified , and which appears to have been the scope of the divine law-giver ? for , the world needed not so much to have been acquainted , that adultery was a sin , as that that sin deserved death ; and if we allow our capricious humor the liberty to reject what we think inconvenient , we may at last arrive at that pitch of licentiousness , as to abrogat , by our practice , whatever choaks our present humor . there are many things much mistaken in that law , which makes the dissonancy betwixt it and our law , appear so much the greater . as for instance , it is concluded , that by that law , no theft was punishable by death ; whereof this is given as a reason , because there is no proportion betwixt goods and life ; and that all that a man hath he will give for his life , whereas this argument would prove , that no guilt but murder should be punished with death ; and so this dart rather flees over then hits the mark at which it is level'd . and if this argument concluded , why should adultery have been punished with death by that law , seing there seems no proportion betwixt that guilt and death ? for , if vita & fama be in law equiparat , by that same law , pecunia est alter sanguis . but , if there be no proportion betwixt goods and life , and if the punishment of theft ; when it is aggrag'd to it 's greatest height , cannot , in their opinion , reach so far as to be capital . why was it , that by that law nocturnal theevs might have been killed by those who found them ? exod. 22. 2. for , it appears against reason , that more should be permitted to a private and passionat party , then to a dis-interested judge . and it is clear by 2 sam. 12. 5 ▪ that theft was in some cases capital : for , there david vows , that he who took his neighbours one sheep , and spared his own many , should surely die ; which being spoke by a just king to an excellent prophet , and not reproved , must not be thought a flash of passion , but a well-founded sentence . were not likewayes two theevs crucified by the jews at the same time with our ever glorious saviour ? which must not be thought a romish execution , seing the law of the romans allowed no such punishment for theft : i judge therefore , the reason why murder and adultery were punished with death , rather then all thefts , to have been , because theft may be repaired by restitution , but murder and adultery cannot . and albeit the judicial law commands restitution only in the theft of an ox or sheep , ( things of small moment , and which may be stollen to satisfie rather hunger then lust ) yet , i see no limits set to judges , commanding them not to inflict a capital punishment in extraordinary cases : for certainly , he who steals , may , for ought he himself knows , be about the committing of murder , seing to steal what should aliment any poor one , is , in effect , the same thing as to murder him . it is much controverted , if this law prohibits self-murder , and i think it doth : for , we are commanded to love our neighbour as our self ; and so , since we are commanded not to kill our neighbour , that same law must likewayes forbid our killing of our selves . but the reason probably , why no express text did forbid that sin , was , because the spirit of god knew that the natural aversion we have against death , would , in this , do more then supply a law ; and that these who would be so desperat as to neglect the one , would never be so pious as to obey the other . or else , god hath been unwilling , by making such a law , to intimate to the world , that such a sin might be committed . yet , it seems strange , that many are in scripture related , as saul and others , to have killed themselves , against whom no check stands registrated in holy records . but , i stop here , intending to bestow a whole tractat upon the judicial law , a task hitherto too much neglected . the second mirrour , wherein god almighty is to be seen , is that of his creatures ; and in that a virtuoso may contemplat his infinite power , as in the other he may see his admirable justice . it is very observable , that when god , or his prophets , would prove his greatness , the sun , orion and the leviathan , are made use of as arguments . and when the spirit of god descrives the inimitable knowledge of solomb● , bestowed upon him by god , as an extraordinar mark of his favour , he sayes not , that he understood the quirks of philosophy , or notions of divinity ; but , it is said , that he knew all from the cedar of lebanon to the hysope that grows upon the wall . and in earnest , it is strange , that when man comes into the gallery of this world , he should take such pleasure in gazing upon these ill-drawn fictions , which have only past the pencil of humane wit , and should not fix his admiration upon these glorious creatures , which are the works of that great master ; in framing whereof , god is content to be said to have spent six dayes , to the end , that man might admire the effects of so much pains ; whereas his omnipotency might , with one fiat , have summoned them all to appear , apparrell'd in these gorgeous dresses which now adorns them . and it is as strange , that man , having that huge volumn of the creation to revolve , wherein is such an infinit number of curious tale-duces , to feast his eyes with curiosity , and to futnish his soul with solid knowledge ; he should notwithstanding spend so much oyl and sweat , in spinning out ens rationis , materia prima , potentia obedientialis , and such like untelligible trash , which , like cob-webs , are but envenomed dust curiously wrought . and because the gross of mankind was so gross , as not to understand god's greatness by the abstract idea's which instinct presented to him : therefore , to teach that sensual croud , by the trunchmanrie of sense he hath bestowed upon them this mirrour , wherein they may see how infinit he is in power , who made nothing so fruitfull , as to bud forth in this glorious crop of creatures , which now inhabits the surface of heaven and earth . i admire that such philosophers as have had their faces wash'd at the font , can allow of monsters , and define them to be the preter-intentional works of nature , wherein nature miss'd of her design , and was not able to effectuat what she intended : for , if nature and providence signifie the same thing in the dictionary of christianity , it were blasphemy to think , that providence could not be able to effectuat what it once designed . all the creatures are indeed but as clay in the hand of this great potter ; but , it were impious to think , that his art can be mistaken in framing any vessel : wherefore , i am apter to believe , that all these creatures which the schools term monsters , are rather the intentions , then errors of nature ; and that as nature doth nothing without design , so it doth nothing without success . and thus i rather admire nature in these , for her cunning variety , then upbraid her with insufficiency and weakness . neither term i an hermophrodite , man or woman , according to the prevalency of that sex which predomines in it , no more then i think that the painter , when he hath delineated curiously an exact marmaid , resolved to draw either a woman or fish , and not one distinct creature , peec'd up of both . and doubtless this error did at first proceed from mans vanity ; who concluded , that every frame which answered not that idea , which resides in him , was the effect of chance , and not of nature ; as if nature had been obliged to leave in the bibliothick of his head , the original of all such peeces as was to pass it's press . seing god , in his survey of the creation , called all that he had made good , because they were usefull . i conclude , that these are the best which are the most usefull . and albeit i condemn prodigality of ignorance , in preferring a diamond to a capon or sheep ; yet , do i not condemn such of vanity , as shine with these sparkling creatures : for , since god made nothing , which he did not destinat for some use , and seing most of these serve for no use else , doubtless , the wearing of them is most allowable . yet , can i not allow of these gaudy compounds , which men creat to themselves ; as if something had been still wanting after the creation was finished ; wherein man could supply god , and art , nature . the bestowing a hundred pounds upon a tulip , or a thousand on a picture , are not to me the meer rants of luxury ; but are courses pre-ordained by the almighty , for returning to poor artisans , that money , which oppression did at first most injustly screw from their weary hands . it is our ignorance of nature's mysteries which perswads us , that some , if not most of the creatures , serve rather for beautifying the universe , then for supplying necessity , an error which experience daily confutes : so , these herbs which of old cloathed only the uninhabited mountains , do now deserve their own place in apothecaries shops . and it is most observable , that the scurvy growes no where but where the disease rages , which is cured by it : seing god loved variety in the creation , he cannot hate curiosity in man , these two being correspondents ; and the one without the other would be but as flowers to the blind , or musick to the deaf . i laugh at the fruitless pilgrimages of such as travel to ioppa or china , to satisfie their curiosity ; there being a tredaskins closet in each tulip , and a solomon's court in each lilly of the field . and seing mens tempers are so various , it was no wonder that the creatures ( which ▪ were made for his use ) should have been made proportional to his humor : but , seing art hath in many things copied nature to the life , i think not the symetrie nor variety to be seen amongst the creatures such an infallible argument for proving the being of a god. as is instinct , which all the art of men and angels cannot counterfit ; and herein is it , that that grand magician must acknowledge the finger of his maker , seing here his own art fails . these who expect equal excellency in all the parts of this curious fabrick , do not understand wherein its symetrie consists . all the strings of an instrument sound not equally high , and yet they make up the harmony : the face of the earth looks in some places deform'd and parcht ; and yet it is there the mother of rich mines ( as if god intended to bestow a great portion where he bestowes an ill face ) and what we think deformities , were placed there as patches , and are no more blemishes , then the spots are to the leopards . i confess , that at first it puzl'd much my enquiry , for what end these mountains were made so near neighbours to the devided clouds : and i once imagin'd , that these were rather the effects of the flood , then creatures at first intended ; and were but the rubbish and mud which these impetuous waters had heap'd up in a mass : but , i was thereafter disswaded from this conjecture , by the 8. chap. prov. where wisdom , proving it's antiquity , sayes , that it was with god before the heavens were prepared , and the mountains setled ; by the scope of which text , it is clear , that the heavens , hills , and the rest of the creation , are said to bear one date . it is then more probable , that god foreseeing that the lust of conquest would , like the needle of the compass , look oft north ; as is evident by comparing all the monarchies ( first the assyrian , then grecian , then roman , now german ) did therefore bound ambition , as it were , with high hills , ( albeit since , ambition hath found a way to climb over them ) as if he told them , that they should march no furder . thus , it is very observable , that the northern parts of one kingdom are alwayes more barren then the southern limits of the country which lyes to the north of it . the north of england more mountainous and barren then the south of scotland , albeit it ly nearer the sun ; the south of england more pleasant and fertile then the north of france ; and the south of france then the north of italy , &c. we must like wayes consider , that nature brused it's face so when it fell in adam , that it did then contract many of these blemishes which now deform it ; and that as it waxes old , it 's native beauty is the more deformed by furrowed wrinkels . we cannot judge what it was in health , by it's present distempered condition , wherein it groans and travelleth in pain , as the apostle tells us . and the differences betwixt these two states may be known from this , that god , when he compleated the creation , saw that all was good ; whereas solomon , having reviewed it in his time , saw all to be vanity and vexation of spirit . the third mirrour , wherein god is to be admired , is man. this is that noble creature which god was pleased to mould last of all others , not willing to bring him home , till , by the preceeding creations , he had plenished his house abundantly for him . and albeit in the creation of all other creatures , it is only said , that god spoke , and it was : yet , when man was to be framed , the cabinet council of heaven was call'd ▪ and it is said ( let us ) as if more art had been to be shewed here , then in all the remanent fabrick of the terraqueous glob , and glorious circles of heaven . it is likewise very observable , that albeit all the fishes of the sea were formed by one word , all the beasts of the field by one act , &c. yet , god was pleased to bestow two upon the creation of man ; by the first , his body was created out of the dust , and thereafter , was breathed in , his soul. and albeit transient mention is only made of all other creations ; yet , the history of mans creation is twice repeated , once , gen , 1. 27. and again , 2. 7. and , least that foreseen deformity , wherewith he was to be besmear'd after his fall , should make it be questioned , that at his first creation he had received the impressa of god's image , this is oft repeated : for , in the 26. ver . gen. 1. it is said , let us make man in our image ; and then again ▪ and after our likeness . and in the 27. verse , so god created man in his own image ; and again immediately thereafter , in the image of god created he him . yet , i am confident , that this image is so bedabled in the mire of sin , and so chattred by it's first fall , and this divine impressa , and print , so worn out , by our old and vicious habits , that , if this genealogy had not been so oft inculcat , we could not but have called it in question , albeit our vanity be ready enough to believe a descent so royal and sublime . wherefore i must again admire the folly of atheists , who , by denying a deity , cloud their own noble birth-right . but , albeit man be made after god's image , yet , that can be no argument to conclude , that therefore god may be made after man's image , or represented under his figure , as the anthropomorphits foolishly contend , no more , then if we should conclude , that because a copy may be taken off an original , therefore an original may be taken off a copy . neither is this representation salv'd from being idolatry , by alleaging , that the image is not worshiped , but god , who is represented by it : for , it hath been well observed by an ancient father , that idolatry in scripture is called adultery ▪ and it is no good excuse for an adulteress , that she did ly with another because he represented her husband to her , and resembled him as a copy doth it's original : yet , seing nothing is room'd in our judgment and apprehension , but what first entred by the wicket of sense , it is almost impossible for man to conceive the idea of any thing but vested with some shape , as each man's private reflections will abundantly convince him , as the boundless ocean keeps and shews it 's well drawn images , whilst it stands quiet , with a face polisht like a christal cake , but losses them immediately , how soon it 's proud waves begin to swell and in rage , to spit it's froathy foam in the face of the angry heavens ; so , whilst a stoical indolency and christian repose smooths our restless spirits , it is only then , that the soul of man can be said to retain that glorious image of god almighty , with which it was impress'd at it's created nativity . but , when the waves of choler begin to roar , or the winds of vanity to blow , then that glorious image is no more to be discerned in him , then the shadows and representations of in-looking objects are to be seen and discerned in the disquieted bosom of the troubled waters . the stings of a natural conscience , which , according to each mans actings , creats to him either agues of fear , or paradises of joy , do by these ominating presages , convince us of the immortality of the soul : and seing we see its predictions , both in dreams , in damps of melancholy , and such like enthusiastick fits , followed by suteable events ; why may we not like wayes believe its predictions , as to its own immortality , it being the prudence of a virtuoso to lay hold of every mean , which may allay the rage of his hereditary misfortunes ? and to what end would the soul of man receive such impressions of fear and hope , if , by its mortality , it were not to be stated in a condition , wherein its fears and hopes were to have suteable rewards or punishments ? moreover , seing god is just , he will punish and reward : and therefore , seing he punishes and rewards not men according to their merits , or demerits here , there must be doubtless a future state wherein that is to be expected . but , that which convinces my private judgment most of this truth , is , that the noblest souls , and the sharpest sighted , do , of all others , most desire the state of separation , and have the weakest attaches to this life ; which must doubtless proceed from an assurance of immortality , and that it hath , from the pisgah of its contemplation , got a view of the spiritual canoan : for , seing the brutishest of creatures abhors annihilation , as the most aversable ill in nature , doubtless the soul of man , which is the most divine of all creatures , would never appete this separation , if by it it were to be extinct , and to be no more . and how absurd were it to believe , that man's soul should be made after god's image , and yet conclude it mortal , a quality repugnant to any thing that is divine ? as also , how can the soul be thought to perish with the body , seing these accidents which destroy the body cannot reach it ? how can the heat of a feaver burn , or rheums drown , that which is not corporeal and cannot be touched ? and , seing man's least peccadilio against god almighty , is against one who is infinit , were it not absurd to think , that it could be proportionally punished in the swift glass of man's short life ? then which , nothing is more finit , or sooner finished . as the soul is god's image , so it's products are the images of his admirable operations . do not mathematicians creat eagles , doves , and such like automata's ? and spring not flowers from the chimists glasses ? and thus art , which is man's offspring , doth ape nature , which is the workmanship of the almighty : and therefore , seing the soul can with one thought grasp both the poles , can dart out it's conceits as far as the furdest borders of the imaginary spaces , creat worlds , and order , and disorder , all that is in this which is already created ; it 's strange to think it to be either corporeal or mortal : for , if it were corporeal and a mass of blood , it's actings would be lent and dull , neither could it's motions be so nimble and winged , as are these of our agile spirits . it were impossible for our narrow heads , to inn all these innumerable idea's ( which are now in them ) if these were all corporeal , and if these be not corporeal , that which produces them most be doubtless incorporeal , seing simile generatur à simili ; and dull flesh and blood could never produce such spiritual emanations . as the soul is god's image , so in this it resembles him very much , that we can know nothing of it's nature without it's own assistance : like a dark lanthron , or a spy , it discovers every thing to us , except it self . and because it refuses us the light of it's candle , whilst we are in the quest of it's mysteries ; therefore it is , that our re-searches of it's nature are gropeings in the dark : and so ofttimes vain , if not ridiculous . avicenna , averroes , and the remanent of that arabian tribe , admiring it's prodigious effects , did attribute our spiritual motions to assisting angels ; as if such admirable notions could not be fathered upon less sublime causes ; which cardan likewayes thinks , do offer their assistance and light to sensitive creatures , but that the churlishness of their mater will not suffer them to entertain such pure irradiations . this disparages so much humanity , making man only a statue , that it were against the soul's interest to admit of any such idea's : for , as it tends more to the artists praise to cause his products move from hid and internall springs , then from extrinsick causes ; as we see in watches and such like . so it is more for the honour of that great artist , and more suteable to the being and nature of his creatures , that all it's operations flow from it self , then from assisting but exteriour co-adjutors ▪ which makes me averse from aristotle's opinion of the motion of the spheres by intelligences . and it were absurd to think , that men should be blamed or praised for those effects which their assessour angels could only be charged with . the platonicks alleaged , that all souls existed before their incarceration in bodies ▪ iin which state of pre-existence , they were doted with all these spiritual endowments , which shall attend them in the state of separation : and that at their first allyance with bodies , their native knowledge , was clouded , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , with the putting off knowledge for a time , till , by a reminiscentia , their intellectuals revived , as by a resurrection . and origen added , that these souls were , according to their escapes , committed in the state of their primitive separation , yoaked with better or worse bodies ; a shift taken , in all probability , by him , to evite the apprehension of god's being injust , for nfusing innocent souls , in bodies which would infect them ; and by drawing them in inevitable snares , at last condemn them , or at least their infusion was the imprisoning these who were not guilty ; a difficulty which straits much , such as maintain that the soul is not ex traduce . what the hazard of this opinion may be , my twilight is not able to discover . it may be , that the stoicks mistake in making the souls of men to be but parcels , decerpt from that universal anima mundi ( by which they doubtless meant god himself ) was occasioned by a mistake of that text , that god breathed into man's nostrils , the breath of life : concluding , that as the breath is a part of the body which breathed it , so the soul behoved to be a part of that divine essence , from which , by a second consequence , they concluded , that the soul , being a part of that divine beeing , could not suffer , nor undergo any torments ; as is asserted by seneca , epist. 29. cicero , tusc. 5. and defended by their successors , these primitive hereticks , the gnosticks , manichees and priscillianists . but this bastard is not worth the fostering , being an opinion that god hath parts , and man real divinity , and is doubtless a false and flattering testimony given by the soul to it self : for , seing the soul is , by divine oracles , told us to be made after god's image , it can be no more called a part of god , then the picture should be repute a part of the painter . aristotle ( like the devil ( who because he knows not what to answer , answers ever in engines ) tells us , that anima is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a terme fitted to exercise the empty brains of curious pedants , and apter to beget , then explicat difficulties . neither believe i , that his three souls , which he lodges in man , to wit , the rational , sensitive and vegetative , do differ more amongst themselves , then the will , understanding and fancy differ from the two last ; so that his arithmetick might have bestowed five souls upon man , as well as three : but , seing he , and many of his disciples , believe these to be three and yet these three to be but one ; i admire why they should be so nice , as not to believe that pious mystery of the holy trinity : whereof in my opinion , his trinity of the soul is as apposit an emblem , as was the conceit of a simple clown , who being askt , how he could apprehend the three glorious persons to be but one ? did fold his garment in three plates , and thereafter drew out all the three in one ▪ as the herauldrie of our reason cannot blazen the souls impressa ; so can it not help us to line out it's descent : and such would appear to be the excellency of that noble creature , that heaven and earth seem to contend , the which shall be the place of it's nativity . divines ( who are obliged to contend for heaven , because they are it 's more immediat pensioners ) will have it to be created and infused : whereas philosophers ( ambitious to have so noble a compatriot , and willing to gratifie nature , which aliments their sublime meditations ) contend , that it is ex traduce , and is in generation , the bodies other twinne . and albeit it would appear from scripture , that god accomplish'd the creation the first seven dayes , and that nature did then pass child-bearing : yet , that , in my judgment , must be meant of the creation of whole species , and not of individuals , and to press the souls not traduction ; i shall lend only one argument , not because it is the best , but because it is my own . we see , that there where the soul is confess'd to be ex traduce , as in bruits and vegetative creatures , that nature , as it were , with a pencil , copies the young from off the old . the young lyons are still as rapacious and roaring as were their syers , from whose loyns they descended : and the rose being pous'd up by the salt nitre which makes it vegetative , spreads the same leaves , and appears with the same blushes or paleness that beautified it's eye-pleasing predecessors . the reason of which continual assimulation , preceeds from the seeds , having in it's bosome , all these qualities and shapes , which appear thereafter in it's larger products , whereof they were but a mappe or index . whereas man resembles never , at least not oft , these who are called his parents ; the vitious and tall father , having oft low , but vertuous children ; which shows , that the soul of man is not derived by generation , and that the soul bestowed upon the son's body , is most different and assymbolick to that which lodged in the father . and this may be further confirmed by that excellent passage , prov. 20. 27 , where it is said , that the understanding of man is the candle of the lord. our soul is god's image , and none can draw that image but himself ; we are the stamp of his divine nature , and so can only be formed by himself , who is the glorious seal . from this divine principle , that man's soul is made after god's image , i am almost induced to believe , that prophesie is no miraculous gift bestowed upon the soul at extraordinary occasions only , but is a natural ( though the highest ) perfection of our humane nature : for , if it be natural for the stamp , to have impress'd upon it all the traits that dwell upon the face of the seal , then it must be natural to the soul , which is god's impressa , to have a faculty of foreseeing , since that is one of god's excellencies . albeit i confess , that that stamp is here infinitly be-dimm'd and worn off ; as also , we know by experience , that men upon death bed , when the soul begins ( being detached by sickness from the bodies slavery ) to act like it self , do foresee and foretell many remote and improbable events : and for the same reason do i think predictions , by dreams , not to be extraordinary revelations , but rather the products natural of a rational soul. and if sagacious men can be so sharp-sighted in this state of glimmering , as to foresee many events which fall out , why may we not say , that man , if he were rehabilitat in the former state of pure nature , might , without any extraordinary assistance , foresee and prophesie ? for , there is not such a distance betwixt that foresight and prophesie , as is betwixt the two states of innocency and corruption , according to the received notion , which men have settled to themselves of that primitive state of innocency . from the same principle , may it likewayes be deduced , that natural reason cannot but be an excellent mean , for knowing , as far as is possiible , the glorious nature of god almighty : he hath doubtless lighted this candle , that we might , by it , see himself ; and how can we better know the seal , then by looking upon it's impression . and if religion and it's mysteries , cannot be comprehended by reason ▪ i confess it is a pretty jest , to hear such frequent reasonings amongst church-men , in matters of religion . and albeit faith and reason be look'd upon as iacob and esau , whereof the younger only hath the blessings , and are , by divines , placed at the two opposit points of the diameter ; yet , upon an unbyassed inquiry , it will appear , that faith is but sublimated reason , calcin'd by that divine chymical fire of baptisme ; and that the soul of man hath lurking in it , all these vertues and faculties which we call theological ; such as faith , hope and repentance : for else david would not have prayed , enlighten , lord , my eyes , that i may see the wonders of thy law ; but rather , lord bestow new eyes upon me . neither could the opening of lidea's heart , have been sufficient for her conversion , if these pre-existing qualities had not been treasur'd up there formerly : so that it would appear , that these holy flames lurk under the ashes of corruption , untill god , by the breath of his spirit ( and that wind which bloweth where it listeth ) sweep them off : and that god , having once made man perfect in the first creation , doth not in his regeneration super-add any new faculty ( for else the soul had not at first been perfect ) but only removes all obstructing impediments . i am alwayes ashamed , when i hear reason call'd the step-mother of faith , and proclaimed rebel against god almighty , and such declared traitors , as dare harbour it , or appear in it's defence . these are such fools as they who break their prospects , because they bring not home to their sight the remotest objects ; and are as injust as iacob had been , if he had divorc'd from leah , because she was tender-eyed : whereas , we should not put out the eyes of our understanding , but should beg from god the eye-salve of his spirit for their illumination . nor should we dash the prospect of our reason , against the rockie walls of dispair ; but should rather wash it's glasses with the tears of unfeigned repentance . ever since faith and reason have been , by divines , set by the ears , the brutish multitude conclude , these who are most reasonable to be least religious ; and the greatest spirits to be least spiritual : a conceit most inconsistent with that divine parable , wherein these who received the many talents improved them to the best advantage , whilst he who had but one laid it up in a napkin . and it is most improbable , that god would choose low shrubs , and not tall cedars , for the building of his glorious temple . and it is remarkable , that god , in the old law , refused to accept the first born of an asse in sacrifice , but not of any other creature . and some , who were content to be call'd atheists , providing they were thought wits , did take advantage in this of the rables ignorance , and authorized by their devilish invention , what was at first but a mistake : and this unridles to us that mystery , why the greatest wits are most frequently the greatest atheists . when i consider , how the angels , who have no bodies , sinn'd before man ; and that brutes , who are all body , sin not at all , but follow the pure dictates of nature . i am induced to believe , that the body is rather injustly bamed for being , then that really it is , the occasion of sin ; and probably , the witty soul hath in this , cunningly laid over upon it's fellow , that where with it self is only to be charged . what influence can flesh or blood have upon that which is immaterial , no more sure then the case hath upon the watch , or the heavens upon it's burgessing angels ? and see we not , that when the soul hath bid the body adieu , it remains a carcasse , fit nor able for nothing . i believe , that the body being a clog to it , m●y slow it's pursute after spiritual obiects , and that it may occasion , indirectly , some sins of omission : for , we see palpably , that eating and drinking dulls our devotions ; but , i can never understand , how such dumb orators , as flesh and blood , can perswade the soul to commit the least sin . and thus , albeit our saviour sayes , that flesh and blood did not teach peter to give him his true epithets ; neither indeed could it : yet , our saviour imputes not any actual sin to these pithless causes . and seing our first sin hath occasioned all our after sinning , certainly , that which occasioned our first sin was the main source of sinning , and this was doubtless the soul ; for , our first sin being an immoderat desire of knowledge , was the effect and product of our spirit , because it was a spiritual sin ; whereas if it had been gluttony , lust or such like , which seems corporeal , the body had been more to have been blamed for it . and in this contest , i am of opinion , that the soul wins the cause , because it is the best orator . what was the occasion of the first ill , is much debated ( and most deservedly ) amongst moralists ; for , that which was good could not produce that which was evil , seing that which works mischief cannot be called good . nor can we ascribe the efficiency of the first evil to evil ▪ for then the question recurres , what was the cause of that evil ? and by this , the supposition is likewise destroyed , whereby the evil enquired after , is supposed to be the first evil : but , if we enquire , what could produce in the angels that first sin , whereby they forfeited their glory ? we will find this disquisition most mysterious . and it is commonly believ'd , but by what revelation i know not , that their pride caus'd their fall ; and that they carcht their bruise in climbing , in desiring to be equal to their creator , they are become inferior to all their fellow creatures . yet , this seems to me most strange , that these excellent spirits whose very substance was light , and who surpassed far , man , in capacity and understanding , should have so err'd as to imagine , that equality fa●sable , a fancy which the fondest of men could not have entertained . and it were improbable to say , that their error could have sprouted at first from their understandnging ; and to think it to have been so gross , as that fallen man doth now admire it : but , why may we not rather think , that their first error was rather a crookedness in their will , then a blindness in their judgment ▪ and that they fretted to see man , whom they knew to be inferiour to themselves by many stages , made lord of all that pleasant creation , which they gazed on with a stareing maze . and that this opinion is more probable , appears , because this sin was the far more bating , seing it appeared with all the charmes , wherewith either pride , vanity or avarice could busk it ; and explicats better to us the occasion of all that enmity with which that serpent hath alwayes since pursued silly man : but , whither god will save just as many believers as there fell of the angels , none can determine ; neither can it be rationally deduced from that scripture , statuit terminos gentium , juxta nu●erum angelorum dei. but , if it please god so to order it , it will doubtless aggrage their punishment , by rackling their disdain . and seing the angels have never obtained a remission for this crime , it is probable , that the correspondent of their sin is , in us , the sin against the holy ghost . for , if their lapse had been pardonable , some one or other of them had in all probability escap'd ; but , if this was not that unpardonable sin , i scarce see where it shall be found . for , to say that it is a hateing of god , as god , is to make it unpracticable rather then unpardonable : for , all creatures appete naturally what is good , and god , as god , is good ; so that it is impossible that he can be hated under that reduplication . it may be likewise conjectured , that voluntar and deliberate sacriledge is the sin against the holy ghost ; because ananias and saphira , in with-holding from the church , a part of the price for which they sold their lands , are , by peter , said to have lied , not to man , but to the holy ghost ; and his wife is there said to have tempted the spirit : but , seing both of them resolved to continue in the church ( a resolution inconsistent with the sin against the holy ghost ) and seing many sins are more heinous , i cannot interpret this lying to the holy ghost to be any thing else , but a sin against light , in which most penitents have been involved ; albeit , i confess , this was a gross escape , seing it rob'd god of his omnisciency , and supposed that he was not privy to such humane actings as have not the sun for a witness . i do then conclude , that the sin against the holy ghost may rather be a resolute undervaluing of god , and a scorning to receive a pardon from him : and this is that which makes the angels fall irrecoverable , and like the flaming sword , defends them from their re-entry into that paradise from which they exile . and albeit to say , that the angels rebellion flows from god's denying them repentance , may suit abundantly well with his unstainable justice ; yet , it is hard to reconcile it with his mercy . and this makes my private judgment place the unpardonableness of this sin , not in god's decree , but in their obduration and rebellious impenitency : and the reason why these who commit this sin are never pardoned , is , because a pardon is never sought . that place of scripture , wherein esau is said to have sought the blessing with tears and not to have found it , astonishes me : yet , i believe , that if his tears had streamed from a sense of his guilt more then of his punishment , doubtless he had not weept in vain ; and in that he tear'd , he was no more to be pitied , far less pardoned , then a malefactor , who , upon the scaffold , grants some few tears to the importunity of his tortutes , but scornes to acknowledge the guilt of his crime : for , pain , by contracting our bodies , strains out that liquid mater , which thereafter globs it self in tears : there could ●ome no holy water from the pagan font of esaw's eyes ; and if his remorse could have pierc'd his own heart , it had easily pierc'd heaven . whilst others admire , i bless god , that he hath closed up the knowledge of that unpardonable sin under his own privy seal : for , seing sathan tempts me to sin with the hopes of an after-pardon , this bait is pull'd off his hook , by the fear i stand under , that the sin to which i am tempted , is that sin which can expect no pardon . and albeit it be customary amongst men , to beacon and set a mark upon such shelves and rocks as destroy passengers ; yet , that is only done where commerce is allowed and sailing necessar : but , seing all sin is forbidden , god was not obliged to guard us with the knowledge of that sin , no further then by prohibiting us not to sin , but to stand in awe . that first sin whereby our first parents forfeited their primitive excellencies , was so pitifull a frailty , that i think we should rather lament , then enquire after it . to think that an aple had in it the seeds of all knowledge , or that it could assimulate him to his creator , and could , in an instant , sublimate his nature , was a frailty to be admired in one of his piety and knowledge . yet , i admire not that the breach of so mean a precept was punish'd with such appearing rigor , because , the easier the command was , the contempt was proportionally the greater ; and the first crimes are by legislators punished , not only for guilt , but for example : but , i rather admire what could perswade the facile world to believe , that adam was created , not only innocent , but even stored with all humane knowledge : for , besides that , we have no warrand from scripture for this alleadgiance , this his easie escape speaketh far otherwayes . and albeit the scripture tells us , that man was created perfect ; yet , that inferres not that man was furnished with all humane knowledge : for , his perfection consisted in his adoring of , and depending upon , god , wherein we see these are exactest , whose judgements are least pestered with terrestrial knowledge , and least diverted with unnecessar speculations . and thus it appears , that these sciences , after which his posterity pants , were not intended as noble appanages of the rational soul , but are rather toyish babies busk't up by fal'n man , whereby he diverts himself from reflecting too narrowly upon his native frailty . and thus scripture tells us , that god made man perfect , but that he sought out to himself many inventions , where perfection and invention seem to be stated as enemies ; and it is palpable , that these sciences , which are by us lawrel'd and rewarded , are such , as were inconsistent with that state of innocency , such as law , theology and physick . and as for the rest , it is absur'd to think , that adams happiness did consist in the knowledge of these things which we our selves account either impertinent or superfluous . but , that which convinces me most of this , is , that we forfeited nothing by adam's fall which christ's death restores not to us ; wherefore , seing christ by his own , or his apostles promises , hath not assured us of any sub-lunary or school knowledge ; nor hath our experience taught us , that sciences are entailed upon the saints , i almost believe , that adam neither possest these before , nor yet lost them by his fall . neither think i st. paul the more imperfect , that he desired to know nothing but christ and him crucified : so that the difference betwixt adam and his successors , stood more in the straightness of his affections , then in the depth of his knowledge . for , albeit it be believed , that the names whereby he baptised the creature , were full histories of their natures written in short hand ; yet , this is but a conjecture authorized by no holy text. it is a more civil error in the jewish talmudists , to think that all the creatures were brought to adam , to let him see that there were none amongst them fit to be his companion , nor none so beautifull as eve , then it is in their cabalists to observe , that the hebrew word , signifying man , doth , by a transposition of letters , signifie likewayes , benediction , and the word signifying woman , makes up malediction . if we should take a character of adam's knowledge from the scriptures , we shall find more imprudence charged upon him then upon any of his successors : for , albeit the silly woman was not deceived without the help of subtilty ; yet , adam sinned upon a bare suggestion , and thereafter was so simple , as to hide himself when god called him to an account , as if a thicket of trees could have sconced him from his all-seeing maker ; and when he was accused , was so simple , as to think his wives commands sufficient to exoner him , and so absurd , as to make god himself sharer with him in his guilt , the woman whom thou gavest me , &c. there is more charm in acquireing new knowledge , then in reflecting upon what we have already gain'd , ( as if the species of known objects did corrupt , by being treasur'd up in our brains ) and this induces me to believe , that our scantness of native knowledge , is rather a happiness then a punishment ; the citizens of london or paris are not so tickled by the sight of these stately cities , as strangers who were not born within their walls , and i may say to such , as by spelling the starres desire to read the fortunes of others , as our saviour said to peter , when he was desirous to know the horoscope of the beloved apostle , what is that to thee ? what can it advantage us to know the correspondence kept amongst the planets , and to understand the whole anatomy of natures skeleton ; in gazing upon whose parts , we are oft times as ridiculous as children , who love to leaf over taliduce pictures ; for in both variety is all the usury that can be expected , as the return of our time and pains ; and if we pry inly into this small ma●s of our present knowledge , we shall find , that our knowledge is one of the fertilest fountains of our misery : for , do not such as know that they are sick , groan more heavily then a countrey clown , who apprehends nothing till extremity creat in him some sense ? and doubtless the reason why children and idiots endure more , and drunken men escape mo dangers then others , is , because albeit they cannot provide such apt remedies , yet , they are less acquainted with what they feel then we are . are not these who understand that they are affronted , more vex'd then such as are ignorant of these misfortunes ? and these who foresee the changes and revolutions , which are to befall either their friends or their countries , are thereby more sadly diseased , then he who sees no further then his nose ? our saviour wept when he did foresee , that one stone of ierusalem should not be left upon another ; and when hazael askt elisha why he wept , he told him , it was because he did foresee what mischief hazael was to do in israel . let us not then complain of the loss of adam's knowledge , but of his innocency ; we know enough to save us , and what is more then that , is superfluous . adam cannot be thought to have been the first sinner , for eve sinned before him ; so that albeit it seem a paradox , yet it is most probable , that albeit adam had for ever abstained from eating the forbidden fruit , his posterity had been still as miserable as now they are ; seing the guilt of either of the parents had been sufficient to tash the innocency of the children . for , as the scripture tells us , who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean ? and david , in that text , which of all others speaks most expressly of original sin , layes the guilt upon her and confesseth only , that his mother had conceived him in sin . as adam was not the first sinner , so the eating of the aple may be justly thought not to be the first sin ; eve having , before his eating the aple , repeated most falsely the command : for , whereas god did assure them , that in that day they did eat the fruit , they should surely die , eve relates it thus , ye shall not eat the fruit , least ye die , representing only that as contingent which was most certain : and whereas god had only said , ye shall not eat of the fruit of the tree , eve sayes , god said , ye shall not touch it ; which it may be furnish'd the serpent this argument to cheat her , ye see god hath deceived you , for the fruit may be touched without danger , why may it not then be eaten without hazard ? and it is probable , that he hath failed in the one as well as in the other . but to abstract from this , it cannot be said , that the eating of the forbidden fruit was the first sin ; for , before adam did eat thereof , he behoved both to believe the serpent and mis-believe his maker , and thus mis-belief was the first sin : for , after he had credited the serpents report , he was no longer innocent , and so he did not eat the aple till after his fall . what wiser are these divines , who debate , whither adams falling-sickness and sin had become heriditarie , if our predecessors had come out of his loins before he sin'd , then these who combated for the largest share of the king of spains gold , if it had been to be devided ? in the almighties procedure against poor adam for this crime , his infinite mercy appears to admiration ; and god foreseeing , that man might sharpen the ax of justice too much upon the whet-stone of private revenge , seems to have , in this process , formed to him , an exact model of inquisition . for , he arraigns and cites adam , adam , where art thou ? he shews him his dittay , hast thou eat of the fruit whereof i commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat ? he allows him exculpation , who told thee ? and in order thereto , did examine the woman , upon whom adam did transfer the guilt . and albeit nothing could escape his omnisciency , and that he did see adam eat the aple , yet , to teach judges that they should walk according to what is proven , and not according to what they are themselves conscious to , he did not condemn him till first he should have a confession from his own mouth . and thus , gen. 18. 21. the lord sayes ▪ because the cry of sodom is great — i will go down and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it , &c. and in the last place , albeit the fatal decree did bear , in that day that thou eatest thereof , thou shalt surely die , yet , were his dayes prolonged a hundred and thirty years after the sin was committed . it is too curious a disquisition to enquire how god can be said to be mercifull , mercy being the mitigation of justice , of which his pure nature cannot be capable , seing whatever he wills is just : and so he cannot be thought in any thing which he wills to recede from justice , and so can no more properly be said to be mercifull , then one act can be both the law and the mitigation of the law. but i will press no point of this nature , knowing that humble modesty is the best theology . the vatican of paganism cannot , for the male-ness of it's stile , match that matchless book of genesis , whereof each sentence seems a quarry of rich meditations , and each word a spell , sufficient to conjure the devil of delphos . might not that excellent expression , let us make man after our image , convince any of the being of a trinity , who deny plurality of gods. it is wonderfull , that the saturn-humour'd jew can , in this passage , mis-take his own saviour ; and it is strange that he should not , from the triangular architecture of his own heart , conclude the trinity of the god-head , whose temple it was appointed to be . albeit i be an admirer of this nurse of cabalism ; yet , i approve not the conceit of these doting rabbies , who teach , that god from his own mouth , dited both the words and mater of the pentateuch ; whereas , he furnish'd only to the other prophets the mater and subject unphrased : for , not only did god promise , that he should put his words in their mouths , but likewayes , they preface thus their own prophesies , in the dayes of such a king , the word of the lord came to such a prophet , saying , &c. neither is this conceit consistent with that high esteem , which they , ( even in this ) intend for their patron , moses ; seing it allows him less trust from his divine master , then the other pen-men of scripture had reposed in them . that brain hath too little pia mater , that is too curious to know why god , who evidences so great a desire to save poor man , and is so powerfull , as that his salvation needed never have run the hazard , if his infinit wisdom had so decree'd , did yet suffer him to fall : for , if we enter once the lists of that debate , our reason is too weak to bear the burden of so great a difficulty . and albeit it may be answered , that god might have restrained man , but that restraint did not stand with the freedom of mans will which god had bestowed upon him ; yet , this answer stops not the mouth of the difficulty . for certainly , if one should detain a mad man from running over a precipice , he could not be thereby said to have wronged his liberty : and seing man is by many divines allowed a freedom of will , albeit he must of necessity do what is evil , and that his freedom is salv'd by a liberty to choose only one of moe evils , it would appear strange why his liberty might not have consisted well enough with a moral impossibility of sinning , and might not have been abundantly conserved in his freedom to choose one of moe goods : yet , these reasonings are the calling god to an account , and so impious . for , if god had first created man , surrounded with our present infirmities , could we have complained ? why then should we now complain , seing we are but faln to a better estate then we deserved ; seing we stumbled not for want of light ▪ but because we extinguish'd our own light , and seing our saviours dying for us may yet re-instate us in a happier estate then that from which we are now faln . albeit the glass of my years hath not yet turn'd five and twenty , yet the curiosity i have to know the different limbo's of departed souls and to view the card of the region of death , would give me abundance of courage to encounter this king of terrors , though i were a pagan : but , when i consider what joyes are prepared for them who fear the almighty , and what craziness attends such as sleep in methuselams cradle , i pity them who make long-life one of the oftest repeated petitions of their pater noster ; and yet these sure are the more advanc'd in folly , who desire to have their names enshrin'd after death in the airy monument of fame : whereas it is one of the promises made to the elect , that they shall rest from their labours , and their works shall follow them . most mens mouths are so foul , that it is a punishment to be much in them : for my own part , i desire the same good offices from my good name that i do from my cloaths , which is to skreen me from the violence of exteriour accidents . as these criminals might be judg'd distracted , who being condemned to die , would spend their short reprival in disputing about the situation and fabrick of their gibbets ; so may i justly think these literati mad , who spend the short time allotted them for repentance , in debating about the seat of hell , and the torments of tortur'd spirits . to satisfie my curiositie , i was once resolv'd , with the platonick , to take the promise of some dying friend , that he should return and satisfie me in all my private doubts concerning hell and heaven ; yet i was justly afraid , that he might have return'd me the same answer which abraham return'd to dives , have they not moses and the prophets ? if they hear not them , wherefore will they be perswaded though one should rise from the dead ? the millenar's ephimerides , which assures us , that christ shall reign a thousand years with the saints on earth , is as sensual an opinion as that of the turks , who make heaven a bordell , wherein we shall satisfie our venerious appetites ; for the one shews the vain glory and vindictive humour of the saints , as palpably as the other shews the lust of the mahumetans . if christs reigning som any years be for convincing the world that he is the real messiah , their heresie should have ante-dated his coming ; and his reign should rather have begun long since , when many ages were to be converted , or at least it should not have been thrust out upon the selvage and border of time , when very few shall remain to be convinc'd : and if in this they intend a displaying of christs glory , certainly they are mistaken ; for what honour can it be for a king , to have his footstool made his throne ? so that i think , these poor phanaticks have taken the patronage of this error rather by necessity then choice , all other opinions and conceits being formerly pre-ingaged to other authors . as i am not able , by the iacobsladder of my merits , to scale heaven , so am i less able , by the iacobs-staffe of my private ability , to take up the true altitude of its mysteries . i have travell'd no further in theology then a sabbath-dayes journey ; and therefore , it were arrogance in me to offer a map of it to the credulous world : but , if i were worthy to be consulted in these spiritual securities , i should advise every private christian , rather to stay still in the barge of the church with the other disciples , then by an ill bridled zeal , to hazard drowning alone with peter , by offering to walk upon the unstable surface of his own fleeting and water-weak fancies , though with a pious resolution to meet our saviour . for , albeit one may be a real christian , and yet differ from the church , which sayes , that the wise men who come to bow before our saviours cradle-throne , were three kings , and in such other opinions as these , wherein the fundamentals of faith and quiet of the church are no wayes concerned ; yet certainly , he were no wise man himself , nor yet sound christian , who would not even in these bow the flag of his private opinion to the commands of the church . the church is our mother , and therefore we should wed no opinion without her consent who is our parent ; or if we have rashly wedded any , it is in the power of the church and her officials to grant us a divorce . as for my self , my vanity never prompted me to be standard-bearer to any , either new sect , or old heresie ; and i pity such as love to live like pewkeepers in the house of god , busied in seating others , without ever providing a room for themselves . if there be any thing in this discourse which may offend such as are really pious , it shall much grieve me , who above all men honours them most . what i have spoken against cases of conscience and the like , strikes not against their christian fellowship and correspondence , but against the apish fopperies of prentending counterfeits . it shall alwayes be my endeavour for the future , rather to drop tears for my own sins and the sins of others , then yrk for their conversion : our prayers help such as never heard them , whereas these only who read our discourses are better'd by them . abrahams prayers prevailed more with god ( even for sodom ) then lot's re-iterated sermons ; and no wonder that the success be unequal , seing in the one we have to do with a mercifull god , whereas in the other we must perswade a hard-hearted people . i intend not to purchase from posterity the title of reformer , seing most of these have faln under the same guilt ; and have had the same fate , with that curious painter , who having drawn an excellent face , as happily as could have been expected from the smoothest mirrour , did thereafter dash it afresh upon the suggestion of each intrant , till at last he reformed it from being any way like to the original . divinity differs in this from all other sciences , that these being invented by mortals , receive growth from time and experience ; whereas , it being penn'd by the omniscient spirit of god , can receive no addition without receiving prejudice . it is most remarkable , that our saviours prayers , his sermons and the creed , delivered to us by his apostles , were roomed up in farr narrower bounds then these of our times , which an hidropsie of ill concocted opinions hath swell'd beyond their true dimensions : many whereof have either been brooded by vanity or interest ; or else ignorant and violent defendents being brought to a bay , by such as impugn'd their resolv'd-upon principles , have been forc'd to assert these by-blow and preter-intentional tenets ; and having once floored them , have thereafter judg'd themselves concerned to defend them , in point of scholastick honour . some well-meaning christians likewayes , do sometimes , for maintenance of what is lawfull and pious , think , that they may lawfully advance opinions , which otherwayes they would never have allowed of ; and as in nature we see , that the collision of two hard bodies makes them rebound so much the further from one another , so opposition makes both parties fly into extremeties . thus i believe , that the debates betwixt roman-catholicks and protestants , concerning the virgin mary , have occasion'd , in some amongst both , expressions , if not hereticall , yet aleast undecent . thus a great many confessions of faith become , like noahs ark , a receptacle of clean and unclean : and which is also deplorable , they do , like ordinar dyals , serve only for use in that one meridian for which they are calculated , and by riding twenty miles ye make them heterodox . i speak not this to the disparagement of our own church , ( which i reverence in all it's precepts and practices ▪ ) but to beget a blushing conviction in such as have diverted from it ; and whose conventicles , compared with our ierusalem , resemble only the removed huts of these who live a part , because they are sick of the plague . i am not at a maze , to see men so tenacious of contrary principles in religion ; for , man's thoughts being vast and various , he snatches at every offered suggestion , and if by accident he entertain any of these many , as a divine immission , he thereafter thinks it were blasphemy to bring that thought to the test of reason , because he hears that faith is above reason , or to relinquish it , because the common suffrage of his country runs it counter , seing he is taught even by them , that the principles of belief must not be chosen by the pole. and seing faith is above reason , ( albeit , as i said formerly , it would seem otherwise ) i wonder not to see even the best temper'd christians , think that which is not their own religion to be therefore ridiculous . my design all alongst this discourse , butts at this one principle , that speculations in religion are not so necessary , and are more dangerous then sincere practice . it is in religion as in herauldry , the simpler the bearing be , it is so much the purer and the ancienter . i will not say that our school-distinctions are the impressions of the devils cloven foot ; but i may say , that our piety and principles scarce ever grow after they begin to fork in such dichotomies ; which , like iacob and esau , divide and jar as soon as they are born : and betwixt whom , the poor proposition , out of which both did spring , is like a malefactor , most lamentably drag'd to pieces . i have endeavoured to demonstrat , that dogmaticalness and paralitick scepticisme , are but the apocrypha of true religion ; and i believe the one begets the other , as a toad begets a cockatrice : for the sceptick perceiving , that the magisterial dogmatist erres ( as these must erre somewhere who assert too much ) even in these things whereof he affirms , he is as sure , as of any principle in religion , ( which is their ordinary stile ) he finding out their error in one of their principles , is thereby emboldned to contravert all . this being the scope of this essay . i wish that these who read it would expound it as divines do parables , quae non sunt argumentativa ultra suum scopum . i doubt not but some will think me no less absurd in writing against vanity , whilst i am so vain my self as to write books , then the philosophers were judged of old , for denying motion whilst their tongues mov'd in their cheek ; but , to these my answer shall be , that finding many grovelling in their errors , i have , in this essay , proffer'd them my assistance , not to shew my strength but my compassion . the multitude ( which albeit it hath ever been allowed many heads , yet was never allowed any brains ) will doubtless accuse my studies of adultery , for hugging contemplations so excentrick to my employment ; to these my return is , that these papers are but the pairings of my other studies , and because they were but pairings , i have flung them out into the streets . i wrote them in my retirements when i wanted both books and employment , and i resolve that this shall be the last inroad i shall ever make into forreign contemplations . there are some thoughts in this peece which may seem to rebell against the empire of the schools ; yet , who knows but my watch goes right , albeit it agree not with the publick clock of the city , especially where the sun of righteousness hath not , by pointing clearly the dyal of faith , shewed which of the two are in the error . there are some expressions in it , which censure may force to speak otherwayes then they have in commission ; yet none of them got room in this discourse , untill they first gave an account of their design to a most pious and learned divine : and so , it may be the lines are of themselves streight , albeit they lye not parallel with each censurers crooked rule . as this discourse intends , for the divines of our church , all respect ; so all that is in it , is most freely submitted to their censure . the author intended this discourse only as an introduction to the stoicks morals , but probably , he will , for many years , stop here . errata . blurres in the copy and the authors absence occasioned these errata's , which must be helped before reading , seing they destroy both the sense and soundness of the discourse . in the preface , p. 2. l. 4. for prophet , read iehouadab : p. 9. f. taps r. tops . p. 15. l. 7. add some before episcopists and presbyterians . p. 16. l. 4. f. all r. almost all . in the book , p. 24. l. 16. f. hath no , r. seems to have no. p. 2● . l. 18. f. is but a conceit , r. seems but a conceit . p. 35. l. 13. f. continual r. extraordinar . p. 58. l. 19. f. triumphant , r. militant . p. 63. l. 22. f. ever any , r. few have . p. 73. l. 10. f. excrementilius , r. excrementitius . p. 74. l. 17. f. an allegory , etc. r. that there run many hid allegories from genesis to johns revelations , wherein the mystical sense deserves likewayes the name of gods word . p. 85. l. 8. add , yet this is but a sophisme ; for , seing our bodies are the temples of the holy ghost , we can no more bestow them upon such uses , then a church-warden can give the use of the church to taverners , p. 85. l. 13. f. thundered from mount sinai , r. delivered in almost one context with that law which was thundred from mount sinai . p. 121. l. 22. f. an unbyassed enquiry it will appear , r. upon an superficial enquiry it would appear . by the laws of his countrey , p. 57. and elsewhere , the author means , that religion which is setled by law. in other expressions , the author recommends himself to the gloss of the readers charity . finis notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a50771-e1060 atheisme . superstition . why the world was created . eternity . providence . theology . the strictness of churches . the scrip tures . the moral law. the judicial law. monsters . man & his creation . the immortality of the soul. faith and reason the fall of angels . the sin of the angels was the sin against the holy ghost man's fall . the stile of genesis . why man fell . the millenaries refuted . the authors censure of this essay , and an account of his design his apology . notes for div a50771-e7180 ☞ toleration discuss'd by roger l'estrange. l'estrange, roger, sir, 1616-1704. 1663 approx. 259 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 60 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a47927) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 95357) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 986:28) toleration discuss'd by roger l'estrange. l'estrange, roger, sir, 1616-1704. [6], 106, [2] p. printed for henry brome ..., london : 1663. reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng dissenters, religious -england. toleration. freedom of religion -great britain. 2003-11 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-01 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-04 olivia bottum sampled and proofread 2004-04 olivia bottum text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion imprimatur , geo. stradling . s. t. p. rev. in christo pat. d. gilb. episc. lond. à sac. domest . aed . sab. 〈◊〉 . 16. 1662. toleration discuss'd . by roger l'estrange . ferre quam sortem patiuntur omnes , nemo recuset . sen. troas . london , printed for henry brome at the gun in ivie-lane , 1663. the praeface . i am not so vain , as to expect , that any man will be either the better , or the wiser , for what i write ; and yet , when i consider , that god himself , is pleas'd with free-will offerings ( though ne're the richer for them ) i make that thought my measure : and how incapable-soever of doing the publique a service , i think my self ; yet honestly oblig'd to offer it a duty ; and this poor little is my all. the subject i treat of , is , toleration ; wherein ( with modesty ) i have not ventur'd beyond my reach : for , upon the ventilation of the question , it seems to mee , that it is one of the hardest things in the world , for the non-conformists to say what they would have ; and one of the easiest ( on the other side ) to overthrow all they can say . to give the reader a clear , distinct , and impartial prospect of the matter , i have layd the debate before him in colloquy ; and under the names of conformity , zeal , and scruple , are represented the three grand partyes , orthodox , presbyterian , and independent . that which first put mee upon this theme , was the great and irregular earnestness , that was not long stnce employ'd , toward the procurement of a toleration . concerning which , i found my self at a double loss : first , touching the proposition it self ; and secondly , about the manner of promoting it . as to the former , me'thought toleration in gross , was of something a mysterious latitude ; but upon the taking it in pieces , i perceive , that nothing can be plainer than the meaning of it ; and the truth is , it means [ not to be understood ] that they may be sure to make something on 't , whether it hitts or misses . the one way , they may do what they please ; and the other way , there 's a ground for a compleynt . a second thing that surpriz'd me not a little , was the manner of introducing it ; for , it was usher'd in by all the querulous wayes of compleynt and aggravation , imaginable : which i presume , they would have forborn , had they but been acquainted with the iustices opinions ( in the 2d of king james ) upon that very point . it was demanded by chancellor ellesmere , whether it were an offence punishable , and what punishment they deserved , who framed petitions , and collected a multitude of hands thereto , to prefer to the king , in a publique cause , as the puritans had done , with an intimation to the king , that if he deny'd their suit , many thousands of his subjects would be discontented ? whereto all the iustices answer'd , that it was an offence finable at discretion , and very near to treason and felony , in the punishment , for they tended to the raising of sedition , rebellion , and discontent among the people . upon the rejection of their suit , the business was husht , till of late ; when the revival of their pretensions , together with the dispersing of divers virulent libells , mov'd me to gather up my thoughts , which i here submit to the fate of my other weaknesses . i might say twenty things , to excuse the slips of my distracted leisures ; but i shall rather recommend what 's worth the reading , than trifle away a complement for that which is not . i caus'd a little tract lately to be re-printed , under the title of presbytery display'd : who was the author of it , i know not ; but it is certainly , a iudicious , and well-order'd draught of their government ; and may serve to stop any presbyterian's mouth that opens for a toleration , which how formidable soever it may appear in a petition , is certainly a most pitifull thing in an argument . the contents are to be found at the end of the book . toleration discuss'd . introduction . zeal and conformity , and to them scruple . zeal . good morrow to ye , conformity . conform . welcome , zeal . is this your eight a clock ? as sure as i live , a presbyterian forfeits his charter that keeps touch with a son of the church . zeal . 't is late i confess , but i could not possibly get away sooner . conf. and i beseech ye ( if a body may ask ) what mighty business hinder'd ye ? zeal . guess . conf. why then , my head to a nut-shell , thou hast either been breathing thy girles at some prohibited lecture ; or getting hands against the act for uniformity . go to , speak truth , what made you and your ladies so early abroad this morning ? ( for i saw ye at the back-gate as soon as ye could well find the way to it ) zeal . suppose i should tell ye , that we went to a religious meeting . conf. then would i tell you again that 't is well your wife is my kinswoman . ze. what 's your conceit for that ? conf. i should suspect she might be tempted else to make your head ake : for those assemblies which you call religious meetings ; what are they , but close appointments , where the men meet to cuckold authority : and the women ( if they please ) to do as much for their husbands ? without fooling , i look upon conventicling , but as a graver kind of catter-wawling ; and in fine , 't is not good to wont our selves to stoln pleasures . ze. you will be bitter . conf. no no , i will not . raillery apart , your wife 's a very good lass. but where have you been in earnest ? ze. to tell you the very truth , i have been , with my wife and my daughter , to ioy mr. calamy of his enlargement . conf. bless me ! is he at liberty then ? ze. yes , he is at liberty . do ye wonder at it ? conf. no , not much . but , prethee why was he clapt up ? ze. for preaching . is not that crime enough ? conf. that 's according as the sermon is ; for so as a man may order the matter in a pulpit , i think he may with a better conscience deliver poyson in the sacrament ; for the one does but destroy the body , t'other the soul. this , poysons only the congregation ; that , the whole kingdome . ze. i sent ye his sermon last night , have ye overlookt it ? conf. yes : and i have weigh'd every syllable in 't . ze. well , and how do ye find it ? conf. only a plague-plaister , that 's made publique for the good of his majesties liege-people . find it say ye ? if ever i live to be king of utopia , i 'le hang him up that prints the fellow on 't within my dominions . zeal . and what shall become of him that preaches it , i beseech ye ? conf. perhaps i 'le spare him for his industry ; for a presbyterian that preaches sedition , do's but labour in 's calling . ze. come leave your lashing , and tell me soberly ; what hurt do you find in 't ? conf. that hurt that brought the late king to the scaffold . and ( in a word ) which will unsettle the best establisht government in the world , with a very small encouragement ; that hurt do i find in 't . ze. truly , my eyes can discover no such matter . conf. it may be you 'll see better with my spectacles . but where 's your brother-scruple ? he was not with you at mr. calamy's , i hope . ze. no , ye know hee 's of another way ; i think hee 'll call upon me here by and by ; for we are to go into the city together about business . conf. what ever the matter is , i have a strange itch to day to know your business . prethee is't a secret ? ze. 't is a secret , to you , if you don't know 't . but what if i should long as much now to know what 't is that makes you so inquisitive ? conf. i 'de save your longing ; nay , and for fear of the worst , i 'le prevent it . they say that you and your brother are gathering hands to a petition against the act for uniformity . ze. put case we were , what then ? conf. in the day that you offer that petition , will i and my friends prefer another against the act of indempnity . ze. sure ye do not take it for the same case . have you read the kings late declaration of december 26 ? conf. yes ; and i see nothing there , but that his majesty finds himself oblig'd to preserve both alike . ze. do ye remember what he says concerning his promises from breda ? conf. oh very well ; and i would advise you as a friend not to mind him too much of them : for first , his majesty has done his part in consenting to the mature and deliberate offers of his parliament . 2. you have ( many of ye ) fail'd of yours in not complying with the conditions of his royal mercy . but to the point i am to speak with you about . ze. do so , what is 't ? look ye ; here 's scruple come already . conf. so much the better , for i have somewhat to say to ye both. come , scruple , i think i may thank your brother here for this visit. scrup. truly if it were thankworthy , so you might ; for i am only come to call him away about business into the city . conf. nay never talk of business into the city before dinner ; for , to my knowledge , the afternoon is time enough for your business . scrup. in good truth , we are engag'd upon an appointment . conf. i know ye are , and that 's the reason i desir'd to speak with your brother this morning . you two are to be at town-ditch this morning , if it be possible ; or however , sometime to day . is 't not so ? ze. pray'e where have you your intelligence ? conf. i have a certain familiar that tells tales out of school . come , come , resolve upon the afternoon , 't is but reprieving bishops a matter of two hours longer . ze. well , since you 'll have it so , it shall be so : but let me tell ye , your devil deceives ye ; for we have no design at all upon episcopacy . conf. y'intend to petition the parliament ; do ye not ? ze. it may be we do . conf. in good time ; and what 's the scope of your petition ? ze. that we may be left at liberty to worship god according to our consciences . conf. have you well consider'd what will be the fruit of granting that liberty ? ze. it will exalt the kings honour , establish the peace of the nation , promote all honest interests ; and satisfie all good men. conf. make that good , and ye shall have my hand to your petition . scrup. and if we do not make it good , wee 'll renounce our claim . conf. come gentlemen , there 's a fire in my study , and we have two hours good to dinner . let 's make use of our time. sect . i. liberty of conscience stated . conf. if i do not mistake ye , my masters , the thing ye contend for is a toleration . scrup. it is so . ze. and that we may not be enjoyn'd ( upon a penalty ) to do that which we think we ought not to do . conf. your pardon , my friend ; that 's not the question , i do not ask ye what ye would not have , but what ye would : not what y' are against , but what y' are for. i know well enough that the act for uniformity displeases ye ; but i would fain know when that 's gon , what will please ye , that we may not destroy a law to no purpose . ze. allow us but a freedome to worship god , according to the rule of his own word , and that freedom shall content us . scrup. in short , the thing we desire is liberty of conscience . conf. liberty of conscience ? what mortal can pretend to take it from ye ? ze. do's not the act for uniformity debar us of it ? conf. not at all ; your actions indeed are limited , but your thoughts are free ; what do's this or that garment , or gesture concern the conscience ? ze. but if i believe it unlawfull to worship thus , or so : whatsoever is not of faith , is sin : conf. at this rate , for ought that i know , ye may believe it unlawfull to worship at all : for ye may as well except to every mode which is not commanded , as to that which is. ( but we are upon the merits of the cause , before we state the question . ) liberty of conscience ( according to my books ) is a liberty of iudging , not of acting ; but i perceive the liberty which you claym , is a liberty of practice . ze. no matter for the word , so long as we agree upon the meaning . conf. nay , by your favour , zeal , we are not as yet agreed upon either ; for that which you seem to ask in one sense , you resolve to take in another : that is , ye ask leave to think what ye will , and ye take leave to do what ye will ; so that the liberty you demand , is rather matter of state , then of religion : and to ask , that ye may govern your selves by your own consciences , is the same thing with asking to be no longer govern'd by the kings laws . scrup. cannot liberty of conscience then consist with civil obedience ? conf. yes , liberty of conscience may , but not liberty of action ; if liberty of conscience will content ye , disclaim liberty of practice ; but if ye must needs have liberty of practice , speak out , and do not call it liberty of conscience . scrup. give it what name you please ; the liberty i desire , is a liberty towards god in matters of religion ▪ conf. but what do ye mean by those matters of religion ? zeal . whatsoever has the honour of god for it's direct and immediate end , under which head , may be comprised [ ceremonies properly sacred and significant by humane institution ] [ religious mystical habits ] [ canonical subscription , ] [ holy-dayes ] — and in fine , such inventions of worship as are not warranted by gods word . conf. so that upon the whole matter , the liberty you demand , is a liberty of practice , in such matters of religion , as have the honour of god for their direct and immediate end. all which , in one word , amounts to a toleration , and so much for the state of the question . sect . ii. universal toleration unlawfull . conf. if a toleration you would have , it must be either absolute , and generall , or limited and partial . scrup. let it be generall then , for doubtless if a man be oblig'd to worship , it supposes him free to do 't in such manner as he finds himself bound to do 't . conf. this argument of yours takes in pagans , as well as christians , for they have consciences as well as wee , and they are convinc'd that there is a god , and that that god ought to be worship'd ; so that to grant a general license , is to tolerate paganisme . zeal . but paganisme is not within the pale of the question . conf. why then no more is conscience ; for if you exclude pagans , upon what accompt is 't ? they perswade themselves they are in the right , you think them in the wrong , and because of the error of their way , deny them the exercise of their opinions ; so that your exception lyes to the error , not to the conscience . scrup. but their consciences are erroneous . conf. they are so , if you may be iudges of them , and so are yours too , when you come to be iudg'd by us. now tell me , what right have you to be judges in your own case , any more then they in theirs ? ze. we have a law to judge our selves by . conf. and , they , even without a law , do by nature the things contained in the law , and are a law to themselves : but to look nearer home , 't is it seems among christians only , that you would have a generall toleration ; and that in my opinion helps ye not much ; for to uphold your claim , you must either maintain that there are no erroneous consciences among christians , or that errour of conscience is no sin , or else that sin may be tolerated . scrup. that there are erroneous consciences , and that sin is not to be tolerated , i grant ye ; but i do not take every error of conscience to be a sin ( understand me , of consciences labouring under an invincible ignorance . ) conf. 't is very true , the formality of sin is the obliquity of the will ; but sin , materially consider'd , is the transgression of the divine law : and conscience it self becomes sinfull , when it dictates against that law. scrup. can there be any sin without consent ? or any consent without knowledge ? or any knowledge in a case of invincible ignorance ? the transgression of the law implies the knowledge of it , or at least the possibility of knowing it ; without which , it has not the nature of a law , as to mee . [ the conditions requisite to a rule , are these , it must be certain ; and it must be known : if it be not certain , 't is no rule ; if it be not known , 't is no rule to us. ] i had not known sin ( sayes the apostle ) but by the law ; and in another place , [ where there is no law , there is no transgression : ] from whence the deduction is clear , that sin is not barely the transgression of a law , but the transgression of a known law ; the inconformity of the will to the understanding . conf. the perversness of the will being a sin ▪ does not hinder the enormity of the judgment to be so too , [ untill the law ( says your own st. paul ) sin was in the world , but sin is not imputed when there is no law. ] briefly ; the word of god is the rule of truth , and all disproportion to that rule is errour ; god's revealed will is the measure of righteousness , and all disproportion to that measure is sin . now the question is not , whether imputed or not , but whether a sin or no ? and you cannot make errour of conscience to be no sin , without making the word of god to be no rule . scrup. i do not deny , but it is a fin as to the law ; but it is none as to the person : it is none constructively , with him that accepts the will for the deed. conf. can you imagine , that any condition in the delinquent can operate upon the force , and equity of the law ? because god spares the offender , shall man therefore tolerate the offence ? david was pronounc'd a man after god's own heart ; shall authority therefore grant a license to murther and adultery ? scrup. what 's david's case to ours ? you instance in sins of presumption , and the question is touching sins of ignorance . conf. your patience , i beseech you : it may be ignorance in him that commits the sin , and yet presumption in him that suffers it : you cannot comprehend it , perhaps ; but the magistrate does ; and wherein you doubt , authority is certain : i could lead you now by a thred , from the toleration of all opinions , to the toleration of all practices ; and shew you the execrable effects of giving way to the impulses of deluded conscience ; but what needs that , when two words will dispatch this controversie ? in pleading for all opinions , you plead for all heresies , and for the establishment of wickedness by a law. do ye think such a toleration as this , either fit for you to ask , or for authority to grant ? ze. but is it not pity , ( considering our duty is obedience , and not wisedom ) that a good man should be punished for not being a wise man ? conf. and do not you think we should have fine work , if a state were bound to make no provision against crafty knaves , for fear of dis-obliging honest fools : you 'l set no trapps for foxes , for fear of catching your lambs ; and hunt no wolves for fear some of your currs should stumble upon a sheep . in short , the honest will obey good laws , and let not the unwise pretend to mend them . as to the sparing of the man , ( even where 't were impious to give quarter to the opinion ) i wish it could be done ; but how shall we separate the errour from the person ; so as to make a general law take notice of it ? to tolerate both were irreligious , and it seems to mee impossible to sever them . if you your self now can either prove the former to be lawfull , ( that is , to do evil , that good may come of it ) or the latter to be practicable , i 'le agree with you for a general toleration : if otherwise , i hope you 'l joyn with me , against it . ze. the truth is , i am not yet resolv'd to burn for this opinion ; but what do ye think of a limited , or partial toleration ? conf. i fear , you 'l find that , as much too narrow for your conscience , as the other is too wide : but wee 'l try't however . sect . iii. limited toleration does not answer liberty of conscience . conf. wee are already agreed , that a toleration of all opinions , is a toleration of all wickedness , and consequently unlawfull . come now to your limited , or partial toleration , which i take to be a legal grant of freedom , or immunity , to such or such a sect , or way , and to no other . will a toleration of this latitude content ye ? scrup. i see no other choyce . conf. would ye have it granted in favour of the conscience that desires it , or in allowance of the tolerated opinion ? scrup. with an eye to both ; that nothing , which is grievous may be impos'd on the one hand , nor any thing which is unlawfull tolerated on the other . conf. but what if the subject shall accompt that imposition grievous which the magistrate thinks necessary ? or that liberty conscientious which the magistrate believes unlawful ? whether of the two shall over-rule ? if the subject , then is the magistrate oblig'd to tolerate whatsoever the subject shall think himself oblig'd to doe ; and this carries us back into a general toleration ; if the magistrate over-rule , ( as certainly 't is his right , for no man can be properly said to suffer , what he has not a power to hinder ) your plea of conscience , is out of doors . scrup. by your leave , conformity ; i would not have either of them govern absolutely and severally in the case ▪ for if the magistrate be left to himself , he may either set up a false religion , or suppress the right , at pleasure ; and the people by themselves , may as well mistake as the magistrate : whereas together , the one looks to the other . but tell me , i beseech ye , would you have no toleration at all ? conf. upon my word , scruple ; no man is a greater friend to toleration then i am , if i could but hit upon such a measure as agrees with piety , and political convenience : with such a model as would probably answer the end you seem to aim at : but to dissolve a solemn law for the satisfaction of some particulars , and at last to leave the people more unsatisfi'd then ye found them , were a course ( i think ) not very suitable to the ordinary method either of government , or of discretion ; and that i fear would be the event of satisfying your desires in this particular . pray'e try your skill , if you can contrive it otherwise , and say what 't is would please ye . ze. an exemption from the lash of the act of uniformity . conf. well! what 's your quarrel to 't ? ze. i think it a great cruelty to confine a multitude of differing iudgments to the same rule , and to punish a conscientious people for those disagreements which they can neither reconcile , nor relinquish . conf. why do ye then press that cruelty your selves , which you condemn in others . for your limited toleration is an act of uniformity to those that are excluded . they that are taken in will possibly be well enough pleased ; but you never think of those that are left out : whereas you are to consider that they that are out , have consciences as well as those that are in ; and those that are in , have no more priviledge , then they that are out . so that , upon a fair view of the matter , you can neither admit all , nor leave out any , without a check either to your conscience or to your argument . for put case , the king should grant ye a limited toleration ; would that quiet ye ? ze. yes , beyond doubt it would . conf. imagine it then , and your self one of the rejected party . are not you as well , now , without any toleration at all ; as you will be then without the benefit of it ? scrup. to deal freely , i would not willingly be excluded . conf. and is not that every mans case as well as yours ? a limited toleration must exclude some ; and why not you , as well as another ? what prerogative have you above your fellows ? or why should not all be tolerated as well as any ? they can no more abandon their opinions , then you yours , and your waies are to them , just the same grievances ; which ( if ye may be credited ) ours are to you. scrup. but are not some opinions more tolerable then others ? do ye put no difference betwixt points fundamentally necessary , and but accidentally so ? betwixt the very basis of christianity , and the superstructure ? conf. ye persue a shadow . who shall define , which are fundamentals , and which not ? if both parties , ( according to your former hint ) there 's only a confusion of law , and subjection , without any clear , or certain result . if the diffusive body of the people , your limited dispensation , runs into an indeterminable liberty . if the supreme magistrate , your claim of conscience falls to nothing , so that , step where ye will , you 'll find no footing upon this bottom . now to the fundamentals you speak of ; bate but that grand foundation of our faith , that iesus christ is come in the flesh ; and that whosoever confesses that iesus christ is the son of god , god dwelleth in him , and hee in god. — abating ( i say ) that radical principle ( which if we disbelieve , we are no longer christians ) there 's scarce one point that has not been subjected to a controversie . in a word , the reason of your proposal requires either an universal toleration , or none at all : unless you can find out an expedient to oblige all by gratifying some . i do not press this , as an utter enemy to all indulgence ; but i would not have it extorted by importunity and struggling ; nor granted in such a manner as to look liker a composition then a favour . if you should ask me indeed whether a prince , upon special grace , and meer motion , may not grant a toleration of some certain opinions ; 't is past dispute , he may ; but the same freedome granted upon a popular claim , is quite another thing , and neither safe , nor lawful . scrup. pray'e make me understand the difference . conf. 't is only this ; if it be the subject's due , 't is none of the king 's : so that the people are supreme , the one way , and the prince the other . now whether it be either safe for a prince to submit his regality to the claim of the people ; or lawful for him , to devest himself of that authority , wherewith god has entrusted him ; lay this under your pillow , and advise upon 't . sect . iv. the non-conformists plea for toleration upon reason of state. conf. since you are not able to make out your claim to a toleration , from the equity of the thing ; nay , since it appears ( on the contrary ) that all indulgences of that quality are totally dependent upon the will , and iudgment of the magistrate ; you should do well do leave complaining , as if the government did ye an injury , ( where effectually you have no right at all ) and rather labour fairly to possess the world , that you are a sort of people to whom the king may with honour and safety extend a bounty . the ordinary inducements to indulgence , are these three . 1. reason of state , wherein is propos'd either the gaining of an advantage , or the shunning of an inconvenience . 2. the singular merits of the party : and here , gratitude takes place . 3. the innocence , and modesty , of their practises and opinions : which is a strong motive ; when particulars may be oblig'd without any hazard to the publique . to begin with the first . what reason of state can you now produce that may move his majesty to grant the non-conformists a toleration ? scrup. if you had put the contrary question , y 'had pos'd me : are not the non-conformists the kings subjects ? and what 's a king without his people ? conf. the non-conformists are , by birth , and obligation , the kings subjects , but they are not so in practice , and obedience . they renounce the law , and in so doing , they cast themselves out of the pale of subjection . ze. i suppose you will not deny them however to be a numerous party , and some experience you have had likewise of their conduct , unity , and resolution ; which moves me to look upon his majesty , as ( in some measure ) under a prudential necessity of obliging so considerable an interest . conf. so far am i from admitting any political necessity of yielding , that , to my judgment , the necessity appears strong , and clear against it . ze. wee 'll waive the general question , if you please , and speak to the convenience of this iuncture . are not the non-conformists numerous ? conf. upon the poll , they are so ; and more now too , then they were when his majesty came in ; and so long as they are suffer'd , 't is to be expected they shall encrease daily . but you say , they are numerous : if they be , consequently dangerous ; the greater the number is , the greater is the hazard ; and therefore , because they are many already , and will be more , if they be suffer'd , they are not to be tolerated . ze. but will not people be much more peaceable , when they are oblig'd , than when they are persecuted ? conf. believe me , matters are at an ill pass , when the prince lies at the mercy of the people ; and certainly the multitude will be much quieter without a power to do mischief , then with it . but why do ye say , persecuted ? they persecute the law , and then you cry the law persecutes them. i would you 'd deal frankly with me : what is ( really ) your opinion of the honesty of your party ? ze. i do seriously believe the non-conformists to be an honest , conscientious sort of people . conf. but they must be knaves to make your argument good : for , if they be honest , they 'll be quiet without a toleration . if they be dishonest , they 'll be dangerous with it . consider again ; if there be any hazard , wherein does it consist ? not in the multitude , but in the confoederacy . a million of men without agreement , are but as one single person . now they must consult , before they can agree ; and they must meet before they can consult ▪ so that , barely to hinder the assembling of these multitudes , defeats the danger of them . whereas , on the other side , to permit separate meetings , is to tolerate a combination . ze. right ; but those meetings and consultations are pass'd already ; for sure the non-conformists have been long enough acquainted to understand one another . conf. so much the more need to look after them ; and the less cause to tolerate them : and for their agreement in a general disaffection ; that signifies little , without the means of joyning in a particular plot. again ; as 't is an advantage on the one side , that the faction know one another ; so is it an equal advantage on the other side , that the king knows the faction : which renders his majesty at any time master of it ; when his royal wisdome shall direct him to suppress the heads of it . ze. mistake me not . i do not say 't is likely they will be troublesome , in respect of their judgments ; but that it is possible for them to be so , in regard of their number . conf. he that fears all possibilities , lives in a cold sweat. but i beseech ye , whether do you take to be the greater number ? those that singly wish to be discharg'd from the act of uniformity ; or those that would have no law at all ? those that are troubled because they may not worship according to their phansie ; or those that are displeas'd because they cannot live and rule , according to their appetite ? the traytor would have one law discharg'd ; the schismatique another ; the idolater a third ; the sacrilegious person a fourth ; the drunkard a fifth ; the conventicler a sixt ; the prophane swearer a seventh ; the false-swearer an eighth ; the murtherer a ninth ; the seducer a tenth : and in fine ; not one of a thousand , but had rather command , then obey . shall the king therefore dissolve the law , because there are so many criminals ? that were to raise an argument against authority , from the very reason of its constitution . shall the people be left to do what they list , because a great many of them , would do what they should not ? shall his majesty give up his government , for fear of some millions possibly in his dominions , that had rather be kings than subjects . less forcible , beyond question , is the necessity of the kings granting a toleration , than that of renouncing his sovereignty ; for , doubtless , where there 's one man that is truly scrupulous , there are a hundred avaritious , ambitious , and , in fine , irreligious persons . zeal . i think we may better decide this question from experiment , and matter of fact , than by speculative reasonings . look back to the beginning of the late warr , and tell me ; do not you believe that there are more non-conformists now , then there were then ? conf. yes , i do verily believe that there are three , now , for one , then. ze. why then , the odds are three to one against you : for the third part of this number , was then the predominant interest of the nation . conf. i could allow you even treble that number too , and the reason of my assertion would yet bear it , upon the greater odds of strength betwixt the faction then , and now . as for instance : at the beginning of the late warr , they were masters of the tower , the navy ; of all considerable towns , forts , and magazines : they had a great part of the crown , and church-revenues under their command , and london at their beck ; beside the plunder of malignants , and the bountiful contributions of the well-affected . scotland was already confoederate with them , in one rebellion ; and they had made sure of another in ireland , ( by persecuting , and with-holding the only person capable to keep them quiet : the earl of strafford ) which broyle they further assisted , by manifest opposals of his majesty's resolutions to suppress it . [ see the kings speech of decem . 14. 1641 , and the following petition concerning the same ] finally ; for the better countenance of their usurpations , they had drawn down the representative of the people into a close-committee , and the arbitrary votes of this seditious conventicle , passed with the vulgar , for the acts of a regular , and complete authority . this was the condition of the non-conformists power formerly , but ( blessed be god ) they are not at present so formidable . the three kingdomes are now at peace ; and we have a parliament that 's no friend to the faction . the king is possest of a considerable guard , which his royal father wanted : and the sword is in the wrong hand for their business . his majesty is master likewise of his rights , both of power , and revenue ; and his capital-city stands right in its obedience . to all which may be added , that although several particulars of the party are as rich , as pillage and pardon can make them ; yet they want a common stock to carry on a common cause : the thimbles , and the bodkins fail ; and the comfortable in-comes of [ a ] irish adventures ; [ b ] moneys and plate upon the propositions ; [ c ] confiscated estates ; [ d ] twentieth parts ; and [ e ] weekly assessments ; and a hundred other pecuniary stratagems ( for the ease of the subject ) are departed from them . if it be so , that these people have none of those advantages now remaining ; by virtue whereof they did so much mischief before ; what necessity can any mortal imagine of tolerating these naked , and supportless creatures , for fear of dis-obliging them ? ze. are they more naked and supportless , now , than they were before the long parliament ? does it follow that they have no power , because they do not exercise it ? certainly , if they be more in number now , than they were then , those abilities that rais'd them formerly , may secure them at . present , from being thought contemptible . conf. 't is true , before our late troubles they were as they are now ( for matter of power ) and out of that nothing they made themselves considerable : yet still i cleave to my opinion , that the same abilities will not now produce the same effects ; for the world will not be twice cousen'd with the same trick ; and as the case stands , there is as little danger from their conduct , as from their number . zeal . this is a little strange , me thinks , to grant the means , and deny the end. the two first principles of power ( men and moneys ) you have allow'd them ; and it is not for your credit to say that these people want conduct , by whom you your selves have been worsted . if you have found them considerable upon experience , do not make them so despicable in your argument . conf. have a care , friend : for the men that worsted us , were a sort of people , that voted down bishops on the wrong side of the parliament door ; that cry'd , they would have no more porters-lodge at white-hall ; and told his sacred majesty in a publique declaration [ aug. 8. 42. ] that the pretence that his person was there in danger , was a suggestion as false as the father of lies could invent — that seiz'd the tower , the navy , the kings towns , forts , magazines , friends and revenues ; that levied war against , and imprison'd his sacred person , usurp'd his soveraign authority ; embrew'd their hands in his royal bloud , and , in the very pulpit , animated and avow'd the unexampled murder . these were the men that worsted us , and these are the people which you plead for , under the mask of non-conformists . your patience yet a little further . the non-conformists are many , beyond question , ( for the whole seditious party lurks under that denomination ) but so long as they are neither in order , nor in office , they are not valuable . they are wealthy too ; but so long as that wealth lies in particular coffers , there 's not much fear of it , as to the publique . now let them be as wise as you imagine them , that policy which over-threw the late king , signifies nothing to the hazzard of this : nay more , that which was then , policy , would be now , direct folly. ze. this is but discourse : my opinion is , that if they had the same will , and purpose to do mischief which you suppose they have , they do not want conduct to their number , to make the necessity of complying with this interest , to appear evident , past contradiction . conf. now touching their conduct . they must either do the same thing over again , or steer another course : and their method is too notorious to succeed the one way , as their persons are too well known to do any good the other . scrup. i do not well understand what you mean by their method ; for wisdom , i suppose , does not confine her self to any certain and prescript manner of working ; but shapes the method to the occasion . conf. i am neither totally with you , nor against you , in this poynt : for as in the menage of publique affairs , there is much left to habitual prudence , and discretion , without need of directing every little circumstance , or tracing every line ; so are there certain general rules ; certain dispositive means , which all wise men conclude to be of absolute necessity to such certain ends. scrup. the question in hand is this ; whether the nonconformists be not an intelligent , as : well as a numerous and wealthy party ? and how far reason of state may prevail for the toleration of a sort of people in so many respects considerable ? pray speak to this. conf. if they be very wise , and very many , they had need be very honest too , there may be danger else ; for if they be not honest , 't is unsafe , and consequently imprudent to indulge them . i think , the best measure both of their honesty , and wisdom , may be taken from the rise , and menage of the late warr : wherein , i must confess , there wanted neither craft in the packing of the cards , nor conduct in the playing of them . but what if i should ask you now , who were the prime conductors in that enterprize ? if you say , the non-conformists ; then they are not honest enough to be trusted ; ( would you have the king gratifie the murtherers of his father ? ) if you say otherwise ; then 't was not their conduct that did the work , and they are not wise enough to be fear'd . in short , ( to give them their due , and no more . ) that which destroy'd us then , was the conjuncture of the most perfidious of subjects , with the most pious and charitable of princes : the king , in fine , was ruin'd by his own goodnesse . first , without the pacification at berwick , in 1639. the rebellion had been blasted in the bud ; and secondly , his majestye's signing of the bill for the perpetual parliament , put the english in a capacity of seconding their scottish brethren . these were the two capital concessions that kill'd the royal interest ; the latter whereof , his majesty ( of ever blessed memory ) reflects upon , as [ no sin of his will , though an errour of too charitable a iudgement , ] and confesses that , [ he did not thereby intend to shut himself out of dores , as some men had then requited him. ] there was likewise a fatal concurrence of sedition and popular ignorance , to facilitate the design . alas ! the late king was oppress'd even by those that thought they fought for him , before ever they knew what they did ; and the folly of the common souldier contributed no less to the general fate , then the skill and malice of their leaders . ( beside some unhappy why-not's and mistakes in the kings armyes , which are not at all pertinent to our discourse . ) ze. admitting what you say , still it was some degree of conduct to procure those grants , and to improve those means . conf. alas ! if iudas his betraying his master with a kisse ; if the enflaming of the people by false , and scurrilous invectives against their soveraign ; — if the erecting of a prerogative conventicle by the force of tumults , and then giving it the name of a parliament ; — if the calling of god to attest the sanction of perjury and treason ; or if to engage the people by a sacramental vow to defend the king , and then hang them up for adhering to him ; — if this ( i say ) be conduct : let no man presume to dispute their title to 't . but if by conduct , you intend a course of honourable wisdom , you 'l hardly find any foot-steps of that conduct , throughout the whole transaction ▪ yet let this pass for conduct , and let the men that govern'd the design , be allow'd for politicians ; still i maintain , that this party , though endu'd with the wisdom of angels , cannot in this iuncture ; no not in this age , pretend again to be considerable . ze. that 's sooner said , then prov'd . conf. truly , i think not much ; in regard that both their wayes , and their persons are too well known , to be either suffer'd , or credited . in order to the late warr , the party had two games to play ; for they were to make an interest both with the king , and with the people , wherein their master-piece was shew'd imprevailing with both king , and people , to contribute to their own undoing ; to which end , they first , acquainted themselves with his majesties dearest inclinations ; and next , with the niceties , and distresses of his government , and fortune : of which discovery they made such use , as enabled them to overturn the order both of church and state , and to perfect their long-projected reformation : for the late king 's predominant affection being piety , and compassion , and his most dangerous distress being want of money , the politicks of the faction appear'd in nothing more , than in working upon his majestye's goodness , and necessities . their practices upon the people were chiefly employ'd upon the two things , which of all others they do the least understand , and the most furiously pursue , to wit , religion and liberty ; wherein the ministers were the prime instruments , and alaham ( in the words of the excellent lord brook ) was their instructor . preach you with fiery tongue , distinguish might ; tyrants from kings , duties in question bring 'twixt god and man ; where power infinite compar'd , makes finite power a scornfull thing . safely so craft may with the truth give light , to iudge of crowns without enammelling ; and bring contempt upon the monarchs state ; where straight unhallowed power hath peoples hate . glaunce at prerogatives indefinite , tax customs , warrs , and lawes all gathering ; censure kings faults , their spies , and favourites , holiness hath a priviledge to sting . men be not wise ; bitterness from zeal of spirit , is hardly iudg'd ; the envy of a king makes people like reproof of majesty . where god seems great in priests audacity — and when mens minds thus tun'd and tempted are to change , with arguments 'gainst present times , then hope awakes , and man's ambition climes . this was the artifice , by which the faction skrew'd themselves formerly into an interest ; but alas , what would the same thing over again avail them now ? when his majesty ha's but to look behind him upon the sad fate of his royal father , to secure himself against all possibility of another imposture . and for the multitude , they must be worse than brutes , in case of any new attempt , ever to engage against this king , upon any man's credit , that had his hand in the death of the last ; so that we are both wiser and surer at present , then we were twenty years agoe , upon a double accompt ; first , the calamityes of the last warr are still fresh in our remembrance , and i do not find the people generally so sanctifi'd by their . experience , but they had rather lye still for their real profit , then fight it over again for the sound of religion . secondly , we are pre-acquainted with the most likely instruments and pretences of raising any new troubles . as for the unity ye boast of , 't is very true ; that the non-conformists agreed against the publique , till they found it impossible for them any longer to agree among themselves ; and there 's the utmost of their unity . their resolution indeed i cannot deny but it comes up to that in th' epigram , that , he that dares be damn'd , dares more than fight . scrup. wee shall do our cause an injury to press too farr upon reason of state in matter of religion . conf. indeed , i think you 'l find it a hard task , to make it out to any man of reason , that the kingdom will be either the better for granting you a toleration , or the worse for refusing it : but 't is to be hop'd that your merits will plead better for you then your politicks . sect . v. the non-conformists plea for toleration , from the merits of the party . conf. what ha's your party ( gentlemen ) merited from the publique , that an exception to a general rule , should be granted in your favour ? name your services . ze. wee ventur'd all to save the life of the late king. conf. and yet ye ventur'd more to take it away : for , ye did but talk for the one , and ye fought for the other . ze. we ever abominated the thought of murthering him . conf. you should have abominated the money too , for which ye sold him . scrup. did wee sell him ? conf. no , you were the purchasers . ze. did not the presbyterians vote his majesties concessions a ground for a treaty ? conf. yes : but withall they held him up to conditions worse than death it self ; and , in short , they deliver'd him up , when they might have preserv'd him ; and they stickled for him , when they knew they could do him no good. ze. what design could they have in that ? conf. they might have the same design in -48. which they had in -41. for ought that i know . to make a party by 't ; and set up a presbyterian interest in the kings name . ze. all the world knowes , that we were so much afflicted for his sacred majesties distress , that we had many solemn dayes of humiliation for it . conf. so ye had for his successes , for fear he should get the better of ye ; and you had your dayes of thanksgiving too , for his dysasters . ze. what do ye think of preston-fight ? was that a iuggle too ? conf. i think ye should do well to let that action sleep , for the honour of the kirk : for though the cavaliers found it great earnest , 't is shrewdly suspected that there was foul play among the brethren . ze. pray'e let mee ask you one question : who brought in this king ? conf. they that would not suffer . you to keep him out : that party that by a restless , and incessant loyalty , hinder'd your establishments . ze. and what do ye think of the sccluded members ? conf. i think , a new choyce would have done the kings business every jot as well ; and matters were then at that pass , that one of the two was unavoydable . in fine , 't is allow'd at all hands , that the prime single instrument of his majestyes restauration was the duke of albemarle . but if you come to partyes , the very fact appears against ye : for , though all possible industry was employ'd to make the next choyce totally presbyterian , by disabling all such persons , and their sons , as ( in effect ) had serv'd the king since -41. without manifesting their repentance for it since ; yet , so strong was the general vote of the people , for the kings true interest , and against all factions , that all endeavour was too little to leaven the next convention , as was design'd . if ye have no more to say for the merits of your party , wee 'l pass on to the merits of your cause : ze. do so , and wee 'l give you the hearing . sect . vi. the non-conformists plea for toleration , from the innocence of their practices and opinions . conf. concerning the innocency of your practices and opinions , must be our next enquiry ; and how farr your actions and principles comport with the duties of society , and with the ends of government . if authority find them regular and modest , it will be a fair motive to his majesty to grant ye an indulgence , upon so fair a presumption that you will not abuse it . ze. and we shall willingly cast our selves upon that tryal . conf. go to then . but i must ask ye some untoward questions by the way . what 's your opinion ( gentlemen ) of the warr rais'd in — 41. was it a rebellion , or no ? ze. 't is a point we dare not meddle with . conf. nay , then you falter ; for if you thought it one , you 'ld answer me ; and if ye think it none , you 'd think the same thing , over again , to be none too . suffice it , that in fact there was a warr , and such a warr as no honest english man can reflect upon , but with grief , shame , horrour , and indignation : can ye tell me what was the ground of the quarrel ? ze. i think you were in the right your self , when ye said , it was religion and liberty . conf. i suppose , i shall not need to tell ye the event of it ; but of which side were the tender consciences , for the king , or against him ? ze. we were ever for the king : witness our petitions , declarations , and in a most signal manner , our solemn league and covenant . conf. now i thought ye had been against him , because ye seiz'd his revenues , levy'd a war , hunted and imprison'd his person , and at last took away his life . but the truth on 't is , ye were both : ye were for him in your words , and against him in your actions . ze. there were many in our party that lov'd the king as well as any of you that were about him. conf. that is , according to your covenant : and i do not think but that your party loves this king just as they did the last . scrup. i would his majesty had no worse enemies . conf. and i say , god send him better friends . you love the bishops too i hope , do ye not ? scrup. truly when they are out of their fooleries , i have no quarrel to the men. ze. and to deal plainly , i am not yet convinc'd of their lordships prerogative ; nor that there 's any inherent holiness in a cope or a surplice . but why do you couple the crown and the miter so , as if no man could be a good subject , that 's disaffected to prelacy . conf. to be free with ye , that 's my opinion , and i 'm the stiffer in 't , because i think you can hardly shew me , any one non-conformist , that upon a voluntary and clear accompt ever struck stroke for the king ; nor any true son of the episcopal order of the church , that ever bore arms against him. ze. what will you forfeit if i shew you hundreds ? conf. either my head , or the cause , which you please . ze. what do ye think of the papists then ▪ ( but it may be you and they are all one , and so you w'ont reckon them for non-conformists ) conf. to say the truth , we were all one in loyalty to his majesty , and to your eternal reproach be it spoken , [ that the papists should have a greater sense of their allegeance than many protestant professors ] ze. nay i believe a machiavellian jesuit shall ha'your good word , sooner then a conscientious puritan . conf. truly no ; for a presbyterian papist , and a presbyterian puritan are both alike to mee ; and i confess , i had rather be preserv'd by a man of another religion , than ha' my throat out by one of my own. but , my good brother of the consistory , no slipping your neck out of the col ar : i was speaking of the non-conformists ; by which term is properly meant , such persons as refuse to obey the orders of the church , whereof they acknowledge themselves to be members ; so that the point in debate , has no coherence at all with your digression . to mind you of it , the question 's this : whether or no the practises of the non-conformists have been such , as may probably dispose his majesty towards the granting of a toleration . and now to hold you to the question [ by whom was the war in scotland begun ? ] by the non-conformists . ze. by whom i beseech ye was the rebellion in ireland begun ? conf. by the presbyterian papists , but it was provok'd , and pre-dispos'd by the presbyterian puritans ; [ so that , next to the sin of those , who begun that rebellion , theirs must needs be , who either hindred the speedy suppressing of it , by domestique dissentions , or diverted the aids , or exasperated the rebels , to the most desperate resolutions and actions , by threatning all extremities , not only to the known heads and chief incendiaries ; but even to the whole community of that nation , resolving to destroy root and branch , men , women , and children ; without any regard to those usual pleas for mercy , which conquerours , not wholly barbarous , are wont to hear from their own breasts , in behalf of those , whose oppressive fears , rather than their malice , engag'd them ; or whose imbecillity for sex and age was such , as they could neither lift up a hand against them , nor distinguish between their right hand and their left . ] these are the words of that evangelical prince , that dy'd a martyr for that religion , and liberty , which he was calumniated to have betray'd . by whom i beseech ye , was he persecuted , divested of all his regalities , assaulted , immur'd , depos'd , and murder'd , but by your party , gentlemen ? by whom , was episcopacy destroy'd , root and branch ; the law trampled upon ; our churches prophan'd ; monarchy subverted ; the free-born people of england pillag'd , and enslav'd ; the nation engag'd in bloud and beggery ; but by the non-conformists ? ze. why do ye charge those exorbitancies upon the whole party , that were the crimes only of some particular and ambitious men ? do you believe , that it should ever have gone so far , if we two could have hinder'd it ? conf. no , indeed do i not ; and i do believe that there were thousands in the party that intended it as little as your selves . now , me thinks , this experience should deterre ye , from the project you are at this instant upon ; especially considering that you are upon the very steps that led to the late rebellion . the method , was petitioning ; the argument , was liberty of conscience ; and the pretext , religion ▪ popery , was the bug-bear ; and the multitude , were the umpires of the controversie . ▪ nay , you have the very same persons to lead ye on ; and they , the very same matter to work upon . bethink your selves ; ye meant no hurt ( ye say ) to the last king , and yet ye ruin'd him : ye may perchance intend as little harm to this king , and yet do him as much . not that the matter is in your power ; but i would not have it in your will , and endeavour . but enough is said touching the innocency of your practices : that of your opinions , follows ; and i am mistaken , if your principles prove not altogether as intolerable as your practices ( by intolerable , i mean , inconsistent with the publique peace ) ze. sure you 'll send me to my catechism again . conf. nay , marque me ; i will make it so clear to ye , that you your selves shall confess , that sedition flowes as naturally from your ordinary , and receiv'd opinions , as corrupt waters from a poyson'd fountain ; and not as an accident neither , attendant upon your separation , but as a form'd and excogitated design , wrapt up , and coucht in the very mystery of your profession . ze. ' wou'd you 'd be pleas'd to unvail the mystery you speak of . conf. in obedience , i 'll endeavour it . the most sacred of all bonds , is that of government , next to that of religion ; and the reverence which we owe to humane authority , is only inferiour to that which we owe to god himself . yet , such is the deprav'd state of nature , that every man is touch'd with an ambition ( more or less ) to gain to himself some share in the command of the whole : and from hence proceed those struglings of particular persons , which we so frequently meet with in opposition to the general lawes , and ends of order and society . so soon as this private humour has emprov'd , and ripen'd it self into a design , the first maxim which appears in favour of it , is this ; that the less obligation must give way to the greater ; as ( for instance ) reason of state must give place to matter of religion , and humane lawes to the law divine : which being duly weigh'd , what has any man more to do in order to the embroyling of a nation , but to perswade the people that this or that political law has no foundation in the word of god ; to bid them stand fast in the liberty wherewith christ has made them free : and finally to engage the name of god , and the voyce of religion in the quarrel ? ze. and do not you your self believe it better to obey god then man ? conf. yes , but i think it best of all to obey both : to obey god , for himself , in spirituals ; and man for god's sake in temporals , as he is god's commissioner . but let me proceed . are not you convinc'd , that the most likely way in the world to stir up subjects against their prince , is to proclaim the iniquity of his laws ? to tell them ( in effect ) that they 'll be damn'd , if they obey ; and ( in a word ) to make the rabble judges of their governours ? ze. well , but what 's this to us , or our opinions ? conf. i wish it were not ; but to couch the whole in a little , shew me , if you can , where ever your opinions yet gain'd footing in the world without violence , and bloud : shew me again , any one sermon or discourse ( authoris'd by a non-conformist ) from 1640. to this instant , that presses obedience to the magistrate , unless where the faction was uppermost ; which shrew'dly intimates , that your principles are inconsistent with your duties , and that the very grounds of your government are destructive of any other . ze. make that appear if you can . conf. i will so , and i think we shall not need to travail out of his majesty's dominions to prove it . come , zeal ; you 're of the classical way ; and you , scruple , of the independent ; produce your doctors ; ( but let them be the pillars of your cause ) such persons , as upon whose judgment , and integrity , you 'll venture the sum of the dispute . ze. soft and fair , i beseech ye ; what is 't you undertake to do ? conf. i do undertake to prove that the opinions of the non-conformists , ( to say no worse ) will very hardly admit a toleration : and , now , by whom will ye be try'd ? ze. what do ye think of rutherford ? conf. i suppose you mean the divinity-professour of st. andrews . ( iohn goodwin , i remember , calls him , the chariot of presbytery , and the horsemen thereof ) in truth you have pitch'd upon the atlas of your cause . but hear the rabbi in his own words , [ a ] the power of the king is but fiduciary . [ b ] the soveraign power is eminently , fontal●ter , originally , and radically in the people . [ c ] the king is in dignity inferiour to the people . [ d ] there is a court of necessity , no less than a court of iustice , and the fundamental laws must then speak ; and it is with the people , in this extremity , as if they had no ruler . ze. well : but rutherford is but one man , i believe you 'll find gillespy of another opinion . conf. assure your self , friend mine , they all sing the same song [ e ] [ let not the pretence of peace and unity cool your fervour , or make you spare to oppose your selves unto these idle and idolized ceremonies , against which we dispute ] for [ f ] whensoever you may omit that which princes enjoyn , without violating the law of charity , you are not holden to obey them , for the majesty of princely authority . are not these sons of zeal worthy of encouragement , think ye ? you 'll say perhaps , gillespy is but one man neither . come , come , i could shew ye hundreds of them ; and if you 'll but read spottswood's history of the church of scotland , and his late majesty's large declaration , printed in 1639. ye shall need go no further for satisfaction . to pass over the desperate opinions and contrivances of particulars ; as willock , knox , melvil , gibson , &c. let us look a little into their more solemn actions , and read the temper of the kirk in their general assemblies . 1. an assembly is independant , either from king or parliament in matters ecclesiastical . 2. an assembly may abrogate an act of parliament , if it any way reflect upon the business of the church . 3. it is lawful for subjects to make a covenant and combination without the king , and to enter into a bond of mutual defence against him. 4. the major part of the kingdome ( especially being met in a representative assembly ) may do any thing which they take to be conducing to the glory of god , and to the good of the church ; not only without the royal authority , but expresly against it . were 't not a thousand pitties now , to refuse this tender sort of christians a toleration ? ze. nay ; in good truth , i never lik't the extreme rigour of the scottish discipline . conf. and yet 't was that you leagu'd and covenanted to make your pattern ; but where do you expect to mend your self , under that form of government ? ze. truly , i take our english divines of that iudgment to be very pious , moderate persons . conf. never a barrel better herring ; that is , if they come once to dip into the controversie . ze. do not you take mr. — for a very sober well-weigh'd person ? conf. take you the measure of him , from his own hand . [ if a people bound by oath shall dispossess their prince , and chuse , and covenant with another ; they may be oblig'd by the latter , notwithstanding their former covenant . ] the real soveraignty among us , was , in king , lords and commons ; and if the king raise war against such a parliament , in that case , the king may not only be resisted , but ceaseth to be a king. hear now the file-leader of smectymnuus . [ the quection in england , is whether christ or antichrist shall be lord , or king : go on therefore couragiously : never can ye lay out your bloud in such a quarrel ; christ shed all his bloud to save you from hell , venture all yours to set him upon his throne . ( that is to say , down with episcopacy , and up with presbytery ) this is the language of one of your seraphique doctors ; and the sermon both preach'd by command , and printed by order . take notice of his auditory too : no less then the two houses , general , lord-mayor , assembly , and scotch commissioners , ian. 18. 1643. scrup. you will not deny mr. john goodwyn ( i hope ) to be a reverend divine . conf. at the rate of your divinity , indeed i cannot deny it , touching the righteousness of the sentence passed upon the king ; doubtless ( says he ) never was there any person under heaven sentenc'd with death upon more equitable , and just grounds , in respect of guilt and demerit . mr. ienkins is of the same opinion , and so is parker , milton ; and , in fine , the whole tribe of medling non-conformists are of the same leven . now , to shew ye that this agreement comes not by chance , you are to observe , that whatsoever is first expos'd and blown abroad ( by the hirelings of the faction ) from the press , and pulpit , is still seconded ( at least , if the people relish it ) with the approbation of the counsel : so that the main use of sermons , and pamphlets , is only to dispose the multitude for votes , and ordinances . if you doubt this ; do but compare the doctrines of the one , with the practices of the other ; and you must be blind , not to discern that they act by consent , and intelligence . in case of false-worship ( says the pulpit ) and ( says the press ) in case of tyranny , defensive arms are lawful . if the people swallow this ; the next news ye hear , is a vote for putting that position in practice . resolved upon the question that the king ( seduced by wicked counsel ) intends to make war , &c. [ may 20. 1642. ] resolved upon the question , that an army shall be forthwith raised , &c. [ iuly 12. 1642. ze. will ye make the parliament then , and the synod , confederate with the rabble ? conf. tush , tush ; turbam , tam chlamydatos , quàm coronam voco . i speak of a faction , not of an anthority ; i do not meddle with parliaments : yet since you have such a kindness for the very names these people acted under , let me offer ye a word or two to consider upon , touching that thing , which you call a synod . first , the men were neither legally conven'd , nor did they act in the name of all the clergy of england : so that no matter what they did , as to the validity of any thing they could pretend to do . secondly , what was their employment , but to advise upon the cleanliest way of shifting the government , and to do as much for the bishops , as the house did for his majesty ? will ye have the truth on 't ? they clear'd their conscience abundantly to both. first ; in their letter to reformed churches abroad , they charge the king as the patron of the irish rebellion [ pa. 7. ] and , in short , throughout the whole tenor of it as the most insupportable tyrant in nature . secondly , let that ( not only unchristian but inhumane ) collection of white 's scandalous ministers bear witness against them. wherein , without any respect either to truth , or modesty , they have expos'd so many reverend names to infamy , and dishonour , for the better colour of their own wickedness in robbing them of their livings . i have here laid before you , the merits , practices , and opinions of the party you plead for . if i have told ye truth , think on 't ; if otherwise , disprove it . ze. i will not deny , but ill things have been done : shall all therefore be condemn'd , for the faults of some ? conf. and i will not deny neither , but there are good people in the mixture ; shall all therefore be indulg'd for the honesty of some ? try your skill , my masters ; and if you can contrive such an expedient , as may relieve particulars , without hazzard , or dammage to the whole , ye shall have my vote for such a toleration . but before ye propound it , give me leave to offer ye such other reasons of my own , against it , as have not been yet touch'd upon , and then you are at liberty to speak to all at once . sect . vii . toleration , causes confusion both in church and state. conf. gentlemen , to come quick to the business ; my exceptions to your proposal of toleration , shall be reduc'd to four heads : my first exception arises from the very nature of the thing it self ; my second , from this iuncture of time wherein it is desired ; my third , from the consideration of the partyes that desire it ; and my last exception , proceeds from the reverence i bear to the authority that is to grant it . now , if you please , wee 'l begin with the first , and pass to the rest in order . my first argument against toleration , is this : it is ( in those that press it ) a tacit condemnation of an establisht law , and not without some reflection upon the supreme authority it self . if there was reason for the making of it , there is yet more for the observing of it ; by how much an universal obedience is more profitable to the publique , than any particular constitution . scrup. it would be well , if you would bring all people to the same mind , before ye force them to the same rule . conf. but it would be ill if you should admit of no rule at all , till you had found out one , that all the world should be pleas'd with . scrup. we do not ask the vacating of a law , but the relaxing of it . conf. why then , you ask a worse thing ; for it were much better for the publique , utterly to vacate a good law , then to suffer the withdrawing of that reverence which is due even to a bad one . if the reason of such or such a law be gone , repeal the law ; but to let the obligation fall , and the law stand , is , not only to introduce , but to proclaim a disorder in the government . the law , in fine , is , an act of publique , and impartial justice , not made for this , or that particular , but for a common good. my second exception to tolcration , is , because it implyes a kind of assent ( let me not say submission ) both to the equity of the subjects complaint , and to the reason of the tolerated opinion , which , in some degree , seems to authorise a separation . now let it be once admitted , that any one law may be question'd by the multitude ; the consequence reaches to all the rest : let it be admitted , either , that any one sort of people may be allowed to challenge any one law , all other opinions have the same right of compleyning . scrup. but we do not question either the prudence of the law-makers , or the general equity of the constitution ; only where god has not given us consciences suitable to the rule , we do humbly begg of his majesty to bestow upon us a rule that may comply with our consciences . conf. would you have a law made that shall comply with all consciences ? ye demand an impossibility . god himself never made a law that pleased all people . oh! but the imposition under a penalty troubles ye . take a-away the sanction , and what signifies the law ? well , but you would be exempt i perceive from the general obligation ; so would every man else , and then there 's no law at all : in short , ye cannot say what ye would have . would ye have a particular indulgence ? where 's the equity of it as to those that are excluded ? will ye have it generall ? where 's the conscience of it , when all heresies are entertain'd . you should consider , that lawes are fram'd with a regard to the community ; and they ought to stand firm and inexorable : if once they come to hearken to particular clamours , and to side with particular interests , the reverence of government is shaken . ze. you have speculated here some airy inconveniences ; but where 's the real hazard of receding from that inexorable strictness ? ( as you call it . ) conf. first , the magistrate makes himself of a party with those that he tolerates , against those that he rejects , which drawes an envy upon the government . secondly , the tolerated party becomes a sanctuary for all the seditious persons in the kingdom . it was well said of one ( whom i esteem more for his wit than his honesty ) speaking of a thin house of commons ; it looks ( says he ) like a parish church that borders upon a conventicle . and the very truth of it is , a schismatical lecturer , is as bad as a rosted dogg in a dove-house , he tolls away all the pigeons i' th countrey . not that the people throng to him for the excellency of the man , or of the way , but they meet to proclaim themselves masters of the law , and to count how many thousand souls there are , even in this sinfull nation , that will not bow the knee to baal . let them go on , and within a while , the king perhaps shall sue to them , for the same toleration they now begg from him , and go without it ; that is , unless his majesty has better luck then his father ( which god send him , for he has several of the very same persons to deal withall . ) another objection may be this ; if there be any reason for granting a toleration , 't is probable the reason will be stronger for continuing it ; so that , in time , the people shall challenge that as a right , which they now only demand as a favour ; and the next motion is into a popular reformation . let me add to what i have said , that a toleration does not only evirtuate the law , but it naturally produces a total dissolution of ecclesiastical order , and consequently begets a confusion both in church and state. ze. you speak as if there were no such thing as a toleration in nature . conf. of that in place convenient . sect . viii . the danger of toleration in this iuncture . conf. i need not tell ye ( gentlemen ) that i am no great friend to toleration at any time : but i must confess to ye , that at this time i like it worse then i have done at any other . scrup. when , to my thinking , there never was more need of it , nor more hope of the fruit of it , then is at this instant . are not the people ready to tumult for want of it ? conf. indeed a very proper reason why they should have it , that they may be encouraged to tumult again , for what they have a mind to next . how long do you believe that government would stand , where the multitude should take notice that their rulers are afraid of them ? are they ready to tumult ? then they are not conscientious ; and if it be not conscience that moves them , 't is sedition . scrup. i 'm very confident , an indulgence would quiet them . conf. can you remember the steps of the last warr , and be of that opinion ? what was it but that which was given to quiet the faction that enabled them to take all the rest ? to give you a fresh instance ; what could be more pious , gracious , or obliging , then his majesties late declaration , in favour of the non-conformists ? all that was possible for the king to doe , in consistence with conscience , honour , and the peace of his dominions , his majesty has there frankly assur'd them of : and what 's the effect of all ? are they one jot the quieter for 't ? no , but the worse ; for no sooner was his majesties tenderness ( in that particular ) made publique , but the generality ( even of those that had lately entred into a regular and dutifull complyance with the orders of the church ) started into a new revolt ; which demonstrates , that the true ground of their separation is not conscience , but faction , and proves sufficiently the benefit , and necessity , of a strict rule , and the hazard of a relaxation : for you see , that rather then abide the penalty of the act , they could conform ; but upon the least glimpse of an indulgence , they relapse into a schism . come , brother zeal ; your friend of — shall pin the basket. that sermon of his that you wote of , ( at least if his it be , and several impressions of it have pass'd as his , without any contradiction ) that sermon do i take to be one of the lewdest requitals of the kings mercy and goodness that ever — but no more , hee 's a son of the kirk . take him first , as a person whom his majesty has pardon'd , although a leading , and pragmatical instrument toward the ruine of his royal father . consider him secondly , as one that has been taken nibbling at sedition , since his majesty's return before now , and yet been wink'd at . thirdly , take notice of the very point of time he has chosen for his purpose . his contempt meets the kings mercy just in the face , and his majesty's arms are no sooner open to receive him , then he takes that very nick of opportunity to stabb him in . ze. and all this amplifying , and passion , for preaching , forsooth , without a licence . conf. the least thing in my thought , i assure ye ; for i speak to the dangerous scope and application of his sermon , without any concern at all whether he did well , or ill , as to the act of uniformity . ze. i will not justifie his prudence , but in my conscience the man never meant any hurt , either to this king , or to his father , i should abhorre him , if i thought he did . conf. wee 'l handle that point at leasure : but to bring what we are now upon , to a period . i look upon mr. calamy as the mouth of the party , and ye see with what a seditious confidence they own his actions , and avow his disobedience : so that from mr. calamy's single case , we are to take the measure of the main question : and now i ask ye ; whether , or no , do you hold it convenient to dispense with a law , in favour of that party , which at the same time both challenges , and defies that law , and despises that mercy ? ze. when you have made out the fact , as you have layd it , i 'le tell ye my opinion . conf. again , we are perpetually alarm'd with plotts , ye see ; now what better means then a toleration , to draw the conspirators into a body ? in truth ; to gratifie a party that thus outfaces authority , and to do it too in the very crisis of the contest , is a policy that i can't reach the bottom of . this thred might be drawn finer ; but i have something to say concerning the party , as well as the time. sect . ix . arguments against toleration , in respect of the party that desires it ; with , animadversions upon a certain pamphlet , entituled , a sermon preached at aldermanbury-church , decemb. 28. 1662. &c. conf. we are now entring into a large field , gentlemen , and that we may not lose our selves , let us move orderly toward the question . your party desires a toleration , is 't not so ? scrup. it is so . conf. and what is your party , i beseech ye ? where do they dwell ? what are their names ? their opinions , &c. — for to tolerate , no body knowes whom , or what , would be a little with the largest , i think ; would it not ? scrup. truly i think it would . but to answer your queynt question ; our party is a certain number of godly and conscientious men , that desire a freedom to worship god in their own way . conf. but now you must tell me your way too . scrup. our way must be such a way as is agreeable to gods word . conf. do ye mean , that it must be expressly mark'd out , and commanded there ; or will it serve the turn , if it be only not prohibited ? ze. god forbid , that any sober christian should imagine that our saviour left his church without a rule , and certainly the lord's discipline is the best pattern , so that we are to stick to the ordinance of jesus christ , without adding or diminishing . conf. scruple , what say you to this ? for if it be so , there is but one way of worshipping , lawfull ; and consequently , but one way tolerable . scrup. in truth , i am content to venture my soul among those that serve the lord according to the light that he has given them . conf. so that i perceive 't is utterly impossible to please ye both ; for you are for several wayes , and your brother zeal but for one. how comes it now that you two , that can never agree betwixt your selves , should yet joyn in a petition against us ? scrup. we agree in this , that neither of us would be limited . conf. do not you find your self foul now upon the old rock of universal toleration again ? i would , you 'd be but so honest once , as to yield , when y' are convinc'd . can you either name those opinions , which you would have indulg'd ; or can you expect a toleration for all opinions at a venture ? scrup. provided they be not contrary to gods word . conf. but who shall be iudg of that ? if each individual , you must admit right and wrong , promiscuously , for no man will condemn himself ; if authority , you are concluded by an ecclesiastical law. have a care now of your old distinction of fundamentals , and non-fundamentals , for then your very foundation fails ye , and ye renounce the most plausible part of your plea , to wit , your title of conscience . a word now to your brother . you are for the holy discipline , zeal ; for that way , and for no other . ze. we are for that way which is prescrib'd in the word . conf. of which way , either the people or the governours must be the judges . if you say the people , the independent has the better of ye ; if the governours , you must submit to the resolutions of the church : in fine , if ye cannot say what ye would have , never complain that ye cannot obtain what ye ask ; and that 's my first reason against tolerating the non-conformists . they are a sort of people that would have they know not what . in which , particular experience bears witness against them : for , what have they done since — 41. but overturn'd the government , divided the spoyl , enrich'd themselves , embroyl'd every thing , and setled nothing ? and yet my masters there was no act of uniformity to hinder ye . ze. you cannot imagine sure that all these hurli-burlies and confusions , were design'd . conf. not all perhaps , for i believe ye thought to do your business with less trouble : but that the subversion of the government was design'd is plain , and certain ; and truly that it is now design'd over again , is scarce less evident : upon which special consideration , i ground my second exception . scrup. but that would be hard , to ruine so many people of god for an uncharitable surmise . conf. go to scruple ; if that be not the scope of your monstrous earnestness for a toleration , pray'e tell me what is ? if ye have no end at all in 't , 't is frivolous ; if this be your end , 't is impious ; if ye have any other end , make it appear . scrup. 't will satisfie our consciences . conf. heaven and earth shall be sooner brought together then your two consciences ; will the establishment of presbytery satisfie your conscience , or the allowance of liberty satisfie your brothers ? if it be the uniformity ye dislike ; how come ye to joyn with the directory , against the common-prayer ; with that of the assembly , against that of the church ? in short , your disagreements among your selves , are almost as notorious as your conjunction against us , and ye have given proof to the world , that it is not possible for any thing else to unite you , but a common booty ; witness the contentious papers and disputes , betwixt calamy , and burton , edwards , and goodwin , and others , not to be number'd , concerning the very point of toleration . [ the desires of the independents for a toleration ( say the london-ministers ) are unreasonable , and unequal , and many mischiefs will follow upon 't both to church and common-wealth . ] now on the other side , hear what sterry sayes , [ lord thou hast done graciously , and wonderfully , in saving us from the bloudy design of the egyptian papacy : but this last mercy by which thou hast sav'd us from the black plotts , and bloudy powers of the northern presbytery , has excell'd them all. ] rutherford tells ye that [ such opinions and practices , as make an evident schisme in a church , and set up two distinct churches , of different forms , and government , &c. cannot be tolerated . ] milton again , will have the presbyterians to be [ ministers of sedition , not ministers of the gospel . ] with what face now can those people appear to claim a toleration from the publique , whose principles are so cross , that they cannot afford it one to another ? scrup. well , but supposing these unhappy clashings among themselves , how does that prove them in confoederacy against the publique ? conf. their very agreement against the government , and in nothing else , makes it evident enough : but if you 'd have it clearer , look thorough their proceedings . in a petition that accompanyed their black remonstrance of dec. 15. — 41. you may find the points chiefly insisted upon to be these . the honour of the king , the liberty , and property of the subject ; the moderating of the bishops power ; and the removal of some unnecessary ceremonies , for the ease of tender consciences : nay , so far were they from any purpose or desire , to let loose the golden reins of discipline and government in the church , that they held it requisite to maintain a conformity throughout the kingdom , to that order , which the lawes enjoyn'd ; and took it very unkindly that the malignant party should infuse into the people , that they meant to abolish all church-government ; and leave every man to his own fancy , for the service and worship of god , absolving him of that obedience which he owes under god unto his majesty , whom they knew to be entrusted with the ecclesiastical law , as well as with the temporal , &c. — they confess indeed their intention of reducing within bounds that exorbitant power which the prelates had assum'd unto themselves so contrary both to the word of god , and to the lawes of the land. to which end they pass'd the bill for removing them from their temporal power and employments , that so the better they might with meekness apply themselves to the discharge of their functions . will ye now see the correspondence betwixt these gentlemens words , and their actions ? and first concerning the honour of the king ; wherein this word shall suffice , that they omitted nothing , in order to the destroying both of his soul , body , and reputation , which either craft , violence , or calumny could contribute , and not to rob either of the two factions of their deserved fame , and interest , in the ruine of that glorious prince . i shall conclude with parkers decision of the case , the presbyterians pass'd the sentence of condemnation , and the independents executed it . ze. i shall not pretend to iustifie all their actions ; but in truth my charity perswades me , that a great part of the mischief they did , proceeded rather from necessity then inclination . conf. will yee see then what they did afterward when they were at liberty to do what they listed ? they had no sooner murther'd the father , but immediately [ a ] they made it death to proclaime the son. [ b ] they abolisht kingly government . [ c ] sold the crown lands . [ d ] declar'd it treason to deny the supremacy of the commons . [ e ] null'd all honours and titles granted by the king since 41. [ f ] made scotland one common-wealth with england , &c. have they now kept any better touch with the liberty and property of the subject ? let their proceedings witness for them , [ a ] as their tax upon the fifth and twentieth part. [ b ] excise upon flesh , victuals , and salt. [ c ] a new excise upon allom , copper as , monmouth-caps , hoppes , saffron , starch , &c. [ d ] a loane of 66666 l. 13 s. 4 d. for supply of the scots . [ e ] an assessement for the maintenance of the army . [ f ] the house of peeres abolisht , and a monthly tax of 90000 l. for the army . [ g ] a monthly tax of 120000 l. [ h ] an imposition upon coal . [ i ] a monthly assessement of 60000 l. not to clogge the discourse with overmany particulars : wee 'll see next , what they have done toward the moderating of the power of bishops , and the removal of unnecessary ceremonies ? [ k ] the archbishop of canterbury suspended , and his temporalties sequestred . [ l monuments of superstition demolisht ( that is in short an ordinance for sacriledge ) [ m ] the book of common prayer laid aside , and the directory commanded in stead of it . [ n ] archbishops and bishops abolisht , and their lands setled in trustees . [ o ] their lands expos'd to sale. [ p ] festivals abolisht . [ q ] deans and chapters &c. abolisht , and their lands to be sold. this is your way , my masters , of moderating the power of bishops , and of removing unnecessary ceremonies ; and at the same rate you have provided for tender consciences , witness your penalties [ r ] for using the book of common prayer , and your forfeitures for not using the directory . zea. conformity ; you should do better , not to rip up these old stories again . conf. and if you would not hear of them again , you should leave doing them again . zea. then it seems the whole number must suffer for the misdemeanours of particulars . conf. no ; nor the whole party scape because of some particulars neither . would you ha' me open my door to a troop of thieves , because two or three of my honest friends are in the company ? and that 's the case . besides : you must permit me to distinguish betwixt particulars and the party ; for the party of non-conformists , are in a direct confederacy against the law ; whereas there may be divers particulars , that are mov'd only upon a principle of conscience . and those that are truly conscientious , will be known by this ; their'll endeavour their own satisfaction without any importunities upon the publique : for when they come once to joyn in a complaint against the law , 't is no longer conscience , but faction . and the question is not here , concerning the integrity of certain individuals , but how far a toleration belongs to the party , without any consideration of persons . zea. let us suppose then that the party may have done amiss ; i hope 't is no sin against the holy ghost . conf. truly , with reverence to charity , i take it to be next a-kin to 't , in very many of them . for , first ; they sinn'd against an evident light , as appears from their several doublings , and contradictory proceedings . next , there was a malice , notorious ; only i hope it went no further than god's vicegerent . but i 'le comply with the utmost of your argument : you would have those indulg'd that repent . with all my heart , if that will content ye . for still upon that condition , not a soul must be admitted that refuses to abjure the covenant : and there lies the very pinch of the question . for what the covenant meant , every body knows , from the express practice , and explication of them that made it . the league and covenant ( says rutherford ) was the first foundation of the ruine of the malignant party in england . and they that impos'd it , voted it death for any man , having taken it , to serve his majesty : so that whosoever refuses to disown the covenant , must be rationally supposed still to pursue the ends of it . which ends are , the subjection of the royal authoricy to the conclave of the kirk , and ( in terminis ) the abolition of episcopacy ; ( which his majesty has solemnly vow'd , and resolv'd to preserve ) from whence it arises undeniably , that , to tolerate the non-conformists that still adhere to the covenant , is to tolerate the sworn enemies both of royal , and episcopal authority , and of the peace of the nation : and in fine , to tolerate those that have sworn to persist in that opposition all the daies of their lives . from what is already said , it appears , first , that the non-conformists are not yet agreed what they would have , and i dare engage my self to be his slave that clears the proposition , farther , then that they would have this government unsetled , and they know not what in the place on 't . secondly , it is manifest , that impossible it is to please them any longer , then while they are united in a common design upon us : for next to publique order , they are the deadliest enemies one to another , as being govern'd by inconsistent principles . thirdly , it is past dispute , that by virtue of that favour which they now aske , and under colour of those pretences which they now hold forth , they have render'd themselves the instruments of all our late miseries , and the masters of the three kingdomes . fourthly , it is not more plain what they have done , then what they are now about to do ; and , that they have the same design upon the publique , at this instant , which they had in 41 , is past all controversie . zea. conformity , you out-run the constable . will you pretend to enter into mens thoughts ? conf. no , i will not ; but if i should see a man throwing wild-fire into a magazine ▪ and he tells me that he does it to warm his fingers ; would not you take me for an asse , if i should believe him ? no , no , my fair friends . when ye see a wise man , frequently , and deliberately , doing things that manifestly lead to evil consequences , i think a very good christian may suspect that wise man's honesty . zea. come ; no more of your high-flown notions , but out with 't in good honest english : where 's the wild-fire , and the magazine that you would give us so learnedly to understand ? conf. where is it not rather ; to any man that will but look about him , without winking ? is not that sermon think ye that you sent me last night a pretty squib to cast into a populous ▪ town , that 's preach'd half to gunpowder already ? zea. and yet ye said e'en now , there was no danger . conf. i say the same thing still ; that is , without a toleration . zea. but where 's the mischief of that sermon i beseech ye ? conf. the book lies there upon the table , and 't is marqu'd to your hand : but i 'm ▪ not ready for 't yet ; if you please , wee 'll look it over by and by ; and speak a word in the mean time to the ius talionis , to the do as you would be done by of the matter . you would be tolerated by that government , which of all others , you your selves refus'd to tolerate ; stick now to your own rule , and tell me , with what face can ye demand a toleration , or for what sort of people ? begin with your clergy ; would you have them indulg'd ? zea. yes , as they are ministers of gods word , they ought to be indulg'd . conf. that can be no plea for them that persecuted gods ministers themselves . charity indeed is a general duty , but it is an argument that belongs only to them that practise it ; for , they that never spar'd any , cannot reasonably desire to be spar'd themselves . they are in the second place not to be tolerated ; upon the point of scandal : for , [ such are declar'd scandalous , as by writing , preaching , or otherwise , publish their disaffection to the present government ] 't is their own law , gentlemen ; and upon that score of disaffection , was introduc'd the most barbarous persecution of a gospel-ministry , that ever was heard of among christians . i could instance the particulars of the havock they made in london , the two universities , and finally throughout the kingdome . particularly , in south-wales ; where they did not only persecute the ministry , but the very gospel , by shutting up their churches , and condemning the people to the dictates and corruptions of unbridl'd nature . nor was it enough to sequester , unless they starv'd them too ; for they were not permitted , to live either as school-masters or chaplains , but upon severe penalties : a committee of middlesex indeed , told mr. lance ( a reverend , and a sequester'd minister ) that he might hedge and ditch for his living ( and that was the utmost of the liberty they could afford them. ) i could tell ye of the ministers that were poyson'd in peter-house , &c. but i shall make ye sick , and weary ; asham'd i hope ye are already , to plead for a toleration of those people against the law , that were thus mercyless toward their brethren that acted and suffer'd for it . but to seal up all with an authority : gillespy tells ye , that [ the general assembly hath ordain'd , that known complyers with the rebels , and such as did procure protections from the enemy , or keep correspondence and intelligence with him , shall be suspended from the lords supper , till they manifest their repentance before the congregation ] so that ye see we were not only debarr'd the common rights of subjects , and benefits of society ; but the very comforts of our religion were taken from us , and an anathema pronounc'd upon us for our loyalty ; and yet these people think it high reason to be tolerated themselves , and have the confidence to importune it from his most sacred majesty , to whose blessed father ( and that in the depth , and bitterness of his agonies ) they cruelly deny'd the use , and service of his own chaplains . [ a greater rigour , and barbarity then is ever us'd by christians to the meanest prisoners and greatest malefactors ] but ( continues that pious prince ) [ they that envy my being a king , are loth i should be a christian ; while they seek to deprive me of all things else ; they are afraid i should save my soul. ] a word now to the obligations we have to your civil authorities , as to the freedome of our persons and estates . visit but your own acts , and be your own iudges , ( but take the crime along with ye ; obedience to god , to the king , and to the law ) not to enumerate your particular , and personal outrages , as the clapping of so many honourable persons abord , and designing then for slaves , because they would not rebel ; the barbarous treatment of betwixt three and fourscore worthy and loyal gentlemen in the business of salisbury , that were shipp'd away and sold ( by an honest man ) to the barbados . nor to insist upon it , how many honourable persons have been smother'd , and starv'd in gaoles ; how much noble bloud hath been spilt both in the field , and upon the scaffold , &c. — i shall rather confine my self to some few of your general provisions for securing the royal party , and for the extirpation both of that line , and government , to which , providence has now again subjected ye : which ( to run over them in short ) shall be these [ a ] an ordinance for sequestration of delinquents estates . [ b ] delinquents disabled to bear any office , or have any vote in election of any maior , &c. here 's , estate , and legal freedome , gone already : now follows banishment from one place , and confinement to another . [ c ] delinquents must be remov'd from london and westminster , and confin'd within five miles of their own dwelling . [ d ] correspondency with charles stuart or his party prohibited under pain of high treason ] and [ e ] death to any man that shall attempt the revival of his claim , or that shall be aiding , assisting , comforting , or abetting unto any person endevouring to set up the title of any of the issue of the late king. these were the conditions of your favours , gentlemen , and the tryals of our faith. if ye are not yet convinc'd pray'e tell me , what was the reason , that throughout the whole course of your power , ye treated the episcopal party still worse then all the rest ? zea. because they were the most likely of all others to disturb our settlement . conf. very good , and what do ye think as to matter of conscience ? did ye do well , or ill in 't ? or rather , was there any thing of conscience in the case ? zea. truly i wish much of the severity had been abated ; but certainly , as 't was very fit for the civil power to secure the peace of the nation ; so was the power ecclesiastical no less concern'd to exact a conformity to the lawes and ordinances of christ. conf. can you say this , and not blush to deny the force of your own argument ? if ye did well in refusing to tolerate the episcopal way , because ye thought it not right ; the reason is as strong on the other side , that have the same opinion concerning yours . if ye did well o' th' other side , out of a political regard to the publique peace , the same reason lies as strong against ye that way too : so that you must either confess , that you did ill then , in refusing a toleration to us , or allow that authority does well now , in not permitting it to you. do not mistake me . i am as much as any man ( to borrow his sacred majesty's words ) for [ those that cannot conform , through scruple , and tenderness of misguided conscience : and for dissenters that demean themselves peaceably and modestly under the government . and that shall appear by and by , when we come to handle that question . zea. wee 're agreed then , if that be your opinion : and pray'e let 's forward to my friends sermon now . ( a person whom i take to be within the limit of your profess'd kindness ) conf. a match ; and if you please , i 'le glosse upon him to you . lo : eli sate upon a seat by the way side , waiting : for his heart trembled for the ark of god , 1 sam. 4. 13. there 's his text ; from whence he gathers two observations . first , when the ark of god is in danger to be lost , the people of god have thoughtful heads , and trembling hearts . ( or , to put this doctrine into a gospel-dress ) when the gospel is in danger of losing , when gospel-ordinances are in danger of being lost , and gospel-ministers in danger of losing , then the people of god have trembling heads , and careful and solicitous hearts about it . secondly , a true child of god is more troubled , and more solicitous what shall become of the ark , then what shall become of wife and children , or estate . he gives you in the next place , four reasons , why the people of god are so much troubled when the ark of god is in danger . first , for the great love they bear to the ordinances of god , and to the faithfull ministers of christ. they cannot be silent ; they cannot but tremble when they see the ark of god in danger . secondly , they are troubled , because of the interest they have in the ark. the ordinances of god are the iewels of a christian , and the treasures of a christian , and the loss of them cannot but trouble them . and iesus christ is the ioy of a christian , and therefore when christ is departing , they cannot but be much afflicted at it . thirdly , they are troubled because of their accessariness to the losing of the ark. fourthly , the people of god are troubled because of the mischiefs that come upon a nation , when the ark of god is lost. the tongue of man is not able to express the misery of that nation where the ark of god is taken . first , when the ark of god is taken , then the wayes of sion mourn , and none come to the solemn assemblies ; it was the complaint of the church , lam. 1. 4. that is matter of sadness . secondly , the ministers of christ are then driven into corners . and that is matter of heart-trembling . thirdly , the souls of many are then in danger , when the gospel is gone , your souls are in hazard : there is cause of sadness . fourthly , the enemies of god blaspheme , and are ready to say , where is your god ? then do the enemies of god triumph . fifthly , then is jesus christ trampled under foot , and the ordinances of god defiled and trampled on , and then blasphemy and atheism comes in like an armed man. zea. very good , and what can you make out of all this ; but that the loss of the gospel is a dreadfull iudgment : the very fear of losing it , a dismal apprehension ; and that all other interests are as nothing in competition with iesus christ ? conf. agreed , thus far all 's right , and as it should be ; but come now to his application . the ark of god is ( at this instant ) in danger of being lost , d' ye see ? here is no less then all at stake , the very first dash. ask him now , where the danger lies ? he answers ye , that we have lost our first love to the gospel , and to the ordinances . is not this to charge the church of england with apostacy ? hear him again ; and set his vanity against his sedition . more particularly , aldermanbury may truly fear the loss of the ark , and be unchurched ; for want of a faithfull minister to go in and out before them . that is to say , famous mr. calamy ( for that epithete he bestowes upon himself ) is remov'd , and consequently the candlestick . another thing that makes him fear the loss of the ark , is , the abundance of priests , and iesuits , that are in the midst of us , and the preaching of popery amongst us , and the proneness of people to run headlong to the garlick and onions of egypt again . but where are our old eli's now , to sit watching and trembling for fear of the ark ? where are our moses ' s , our elijah ' s ? our uriahs , &c. observe this paragraph well . here 's first , an open and express endeavour to startle the people with a fear of popery , which was the very artifice by which this very person promoted our late troubles . secondly , here 's a direct arraignment of the king , and of his ministers . where are our moses's , &c. — what is this but to say , beloved , ye see , iesus christ is departing , idolatry is breaking in upon us , and our moses ' s , our ely's , never look after it . pray'e lay it a little more to heart , your selves . you can complain ( says he ) of taxes , and decay of trading ; of this civil burden , and that civil burden : but where 's the man or woman that complains of this misery . the loss of the ark ? who lays to heart , who regards what shall become of religion ? there is a strange kind of indifferency , and lukewarmness upon most peoples spirits : so they may have their trading go on , and their civil burdens remov'd , they care not what becomes of the ark. what is this , but to bring authority to the barr , and set the subject upon the bench ? what is it , but in plain terms , to sollicit the multitude to a tumult ? for mr. calamy knowes very well , that they have no other way in the world to do him a service in this case , but by sedition . and for fear of mistakes , note , i beseech ye , with what care the good man leads them to his meaning : they can complain of taxes he sayes , but hee would have them complain for the loss of the ark ; that is , in honest english , he would have them clamour against the government of the church . the very truth is , this gentleman speaks both upon experience , and foresight ; for no man knowes better , both what it has done , and what it may do . first , as to his foresight , rebellion can never be made god's cause , but by taking the ark into the quarrel . next , to his experience . this person was one of the five that menag'd the cause of the rabble against bishops , some twenty years agoe . there was compleyning for fear of the ark too : and what ensu'd upon it , but the dissolution of the government , the scandal of religion , and the murder of the king ? he blames the people next for their lukewarmness ; pray mark me ; they have been once in arms already since the king came in . they make no scruple at all of affronting the law : they have enter'd into several plotts upon the very person of his sacred majesty , and all this , for fear of the ark , as the poor wretches miserably imagine . if this zeal be not sufficient , i wonder what temper it is that our religious salamander would perswade them to : now take the whole matter in complication , and you have first , a prohibited minister preaching publiquely in despite of a solemn law. secondly , the sermon it self is within the reach of the act for the king's safety , where it is enacted , that what person soever , shall maliciously and advisedly publish or affirm the king to be an heretick or a papist , or that he endeavours to introduce popery ; or shall maliciously and advisedly , by writing , printing , preaching ; or other speaking , express , publish , utter or declare , any words , sentences , or other thing or things , to incite or stirr up the people to hatred or dislike of the person of his maiesty , or the established government ; then every such person and persons being thereof legally convicted , shall be disabled to have or enioy , and is hereby disabled and made incapable of having , holding , enioying , or exercising any place , office , or promotion ecclesiastical , civil , or military , or any other imployment in church or state , other than that of his peerage , &c. thirdly , here 's not only a reproche cast upon the government , but an appeal offer'd to the people , for the redress of it . now to proceed ; you have him here , charging upon the peoples consciences , the sin of not being sufficiently affected with the danger that the ark of god is in . it is a sign you do not love the gospel ; if you had any love to it , you would be troubled more for the danger of the ark , then for any outward danger whatsoever . is not this , the very style and scope of — 43. ( i spare his former hortatives to the warr , even for the credit of the function , ) the glory of god ( he sayes ) is imbark'd in the same ship which this cause is in . again , [ when you are derided for hazarding lives and estates in this cause , you must reply , it is for god , and his religion . and what was this cause , i beseech ye , but the foulest conspiracy that ever appear'd under that masque ? ( and those are of all others , certainly , the foulest . ) religion was then in danger , it seems : that is , the presbyterian was not as yet sure in the saddle ; nor would that obstinate and implacable faction ever be quiet , till they forc'd their soveraign to confute the imposture with his bloud . we have it now from the same hand , that the ark is in danger , and what 's that but the good old cause over again , only a little vary'd in the dress ? by the ark , he has already explain'd himself to intend , the interest of the ejected clergy [ pa. 6. ] ; and what he means by pressing so deep a concern for the danger of it , let any sober man imagine . he tells them first , that the ark is in danger , and then conjures them , as they love the gospel , not to regard any outward danger whatsoever to save it . if this be not to invite , provoke , and warrant any violence imaginable , either upon the person of the king , or upon the authority of the law , or wherever else the multitude shall think fit to fasten the quarrel ; let me suffer the shame that belongs to him that 's guilty of such an offence . nor shall the project want hammering , for hee 's over with it again and again , [ let me beseech ye all to declare you are the people of god in deed , and in truth , by following the example of old eli , to be very solicitous for the ark of god — [ consider what a sad condition we are in , if the ark be taken ; what will your estates doe ye good , or all your concernments do ye good , if the gospel be gone ? — what is the glory of england ; what is the glory of christianity but the gospel ? if the gospel be gone , our glory is gone . — oh! when the glory is gone , who would desire to live ? he goes on , [ i am loth to tell you the story of chrysostom ; he was but one man , yet when he was banish'd constantinople , the people all petitioned for him , and said , they could as well lose the sun out of the firmament , as lose chrysostome from among them . oh the sad , and lamentable , and woful condition we are in , if the ark of god be taken ! without any force to his meaning , take his sense in few words . what will your lives , or estates avail ye , without the gospel ? petition for your chrysostome again . ( good gentleman ! as if the sole receptacle of the holy ghost were mr. calamy's night-cap ) now to what end this tends , let any man look that is not blind . no man runs the risque either of his life , or fortune , for a petition ; so that his enforcing so much , the contempt of outward dangers , and of all other concernments , in comparison with the safety of the ark , ( which is now in hazard ) cannot rationally be apply'd to an action that carries along with it no danger at all . wherefore you must of necessity , grant , that your friend either meant nothing , or worse ; and that his pressing , and disposing the multitude to so great a contempt of their lives , and fortunes , was but a tacit encouragement of them to some action that might bring those interests in question . zea. i perceive , a presbyterian is well helpt up that has you for his interpreter . conf. can you your self acquit him ? zea. i must confess , i think he might have worded it with more caution . conf. and then his horrible , unchristian , bitterness against the government , — you have seen smectymnuus i suppose . zea. yes , yes ; he is a little eager in his way . conf. come , zeal ; i 'le disabuse ye : what will you say , if i bring you to a person , that shall averre to mr. calamy's face , that since his majesty's return , he has declar'd himself not unsatisfy'd with the government , and discipline of the church of england , and that only the importunity of his parishioners diverted him from accepting a bishoprick ? you will the less wonder at this when ye consider , how absolutely he was for the church , till he found it more beneficial to be against it . zea. all that i shall say , is this ; let every man speak as he finds : and so , if you please , wee 'll leave him to take his fortune . sect . x. arguments against toleration in respect of the authority that is to grant it . conf. come gentlemen , i have yet one exception more to your toleration , and that is upon the accompt of the authority that is to grant it . from whom do ye expect it ? zea. from the parliament . conf. but what is 't you call a parliament ? for , one while the king and the two houses in co-ordination are a parliament ; and when ye have screw'd out the kings negative voyce , the lords and commons are a parliament ; and then down go the lords , and the commons alone are a parliament ; and at last , out with them too , for the fountain of dominion is in the people . this is the scale of your politicks . but to the point in hand ; you apply to the parliament , and your grievance is matter of conscience ; do ye make the civil power a judge of conscience ? zea. no , under favour , my desire that the parliament will relieve my conscience , does not consequently make it a judge of it . conf. and with your pardon too , how shall the magistrate know whether your conscience is opprest , or no , if he be no judge of it ? one of these two rules he is to proceed by ; either that of his own particular , or the general rule of all consciences . if he measure your conscience by the former , there 's no oppression in the case ; for his conscience is very well satisfy'd in that which will not down with yours . if by the latter , all other consciences would be concern'd as well as yours , in the violation of a general rule : so that evidently , your scruples are singular , and if you cannot bring them within his cognizance , you must subject them to his authority ; and first teach him to know when your conscience is troubled , before ye complain because 't is not eas'd . scrup. for that , every man tells his owne tale best , and may best be credited in that which no body knows but himself . conf. and under that colour , so many men as make no conscience at all of an imposture , shall pretend to make one of a ceremony . peruse the tragedies of our holy leagues , covenants , and reformations : what crime so execrable that has not been committed under the motto of gods cause , and patronage of conscience ? what act so horrid , that has not past for a divine impulse ; and ( if it hit ) the author of it for an inspired instrument of iustice ? nay more ; not one notorious practice of a hundred , upon the person of a prince , but under a religious vernish ; and commonly , a priest at the one end of it , and an impulse at the other . was it not a holy father and the prior of the covent ( one of the heads of the league ) that confirm'd clement in his purpose of murdering harry the third of france ? for his encouragement ; they assur'd him , that if he out-liv'd the fact , he should be a cardinal ; if he dy'd , a saint : and this was it that fixt him in his determination . what was it again , that originally dispos'd this monster to that direful villany ; but principally seditious sermons against the king as a persecuting tyrant ? [ stimolato dalle predicationi , the giornalmente sentiva fare contra henrico di valois , nomi nato il persecutore della fede , & il tiranno , &c. ] see in the same author , the confession of iohn castle , concerning his attempt upon harry the great , which was , that he had been brought up in the jesuites school , and instructed , that it was not only lawful , but meritorious to destroy harry of bourbon , that revolted heretick and persecutor of the holy church [ esaminato con le solite forme , confesso liberamento , &c. ] what was it that animated ravillac to his damn'd practice upon that brave prince , but ( by his own confession ) a discourse of mariana's , de rege , & regis institutione ? 't was a divine instinct too , that mov'd balthasar gerard to destroy the prince of aurange [ divine tantum instinctu id à se patratum constanter affirmabat , diu tortus , &c. to conclude with that fresh and horrible instance here at home ; acted upon the sacred person of the late king. what was it , but the operation of that poyson in the people , which was instill'd into them by their ministers ? how inconsistent then is the liberty of the pulpit , with the safety of the government ? and how great a madness were it to expect , that the same persons should establish this prince by virtue of the same liberty by which they ruin'd the last ? you cannot certainly but confess the hazard to his sacred majesty of granting a toleration ; take a little notice now , of the indignity in proposing it . that grace which were an ample reward even for the most meritorious services , and loyalty , do these people mutinously demand as a requital for the contrary . scrup. will ye oppose the exercise of a charity , because it may be abus'd . conf. no , but i shall oppose the encouragement of a confidence that presses to be requited for an injury : and in truth , your petition properly taken , is rather a mockery then a request . as for the purpose , what is 't ye stick at ? scrup. the act for uniformity . conf. is it the model , or the uniformity that troubles you ? scrup. why truly i except to both ; for neither is the particular act fram'd to my satisfaction , nor is it possible , that any one form of worship should suit all judgments . conf. will toleration suit all judgments any better then uniformity ? or do ye accompt the sanction of any one form whatsoever , to be lawfull ? scrup. indeed i do not think it lawfull for a magistrate to enjoyn any thing upon a penalty , which a private person may not lawfully obey him in ; nor do i think it warrantable for a man to obey any humane command against his conscience . conf. now lay together what you have said ; first , it is not possible , that any one form of worship should suit all iudgments ; and then it is not lawfull to enjoyn any thing upon a penalty , which does not suit all iudgments . what is this but a meer trifling of government , to suppose a law without an obligation ? again ; if the magistrate cannot impose , neither can he tolerate ; unless you 'l suppose him a more competent judge of your conscience , then of his own : for you allow him the cognisance of what he may tolerate , and deny him the knowledge of what he may impose . in fine , your arguments , and opinions , duely weigh'd , his majesty has either no power , or no reason to permit you a toleration ; no power , as you state his capacity , and no reason as you disclaim his supremacie . scrup. i do not oppose the coactive power of the civil magistrate , in matters of civil concernment ; but i take the case in question to be of another quality , and out of the verge of the secular iurisdiction . conf. i think it will become you then , not to importune his majesty for the dissolving of an ecclesiastical law , before you acknowledge him vested with the right of making it . ze. if you think fit ; let that point be the next question . conf. agreed ; it shall . sect . xi . the proper subject and extent of humane power . conf. as reasonable nature consists of soul , and body ; so is the authority that governs it , divine and humane ; god , eminently over all , and princes ministerially under him , and as his substitutes . the dominion of our souls god reserves peculiarly to himself , committing that of our bodyes to the care of the magistrate . now if power be a. divine ordinance , so consequently is subjection ; for , to imagine the one without the other , were to destroy the ratio of relatives . a sober disquisition of this matter , would save much trouble that arises about the bounds and limits of our duty ; how far religion binds us , and how far allegeance . that they are severable , we must not doubt , for truth it self hath said it ; give unto caesar the things that are caesar's , and unto god the things that are god's : but that they are only so severable , as never to become inconsistent , is founded upon the same immovable rock , let every soul be subject , &c. — a precept of a perpetual , and universal operation , and limited neither to time , place , nor persons . ze. your deduction of government , and subjection from divine institution , is well enough coucht , and that we are to obey the magistrate for god's sake , and in subordination to god , is easily prov'd , and granted ; but i hear nothing yet of the particular bounds and terms of humane jurisrisdiction , what 't is belongs to god , and what to caesar . conf. that i confess , is the pinch of the question ; for one duty comes up so close to the other , that 't is not for every common eye to passe between them . effectually , they touch ; but , in what point , is of a nice decision . the readyest way in my opinion , to the strict knowledge of our duty , is by the lawes and powers of the authority ; for , 't is requisite that a man know the rule , before he can observe it . wee are then to consider , that the almighty wisdom has invested kings with an unlimited power of commanding , or forbidding , in all matters which god himself has not either commanded , or forbidden ; which proposition resolves it self into this conclusion , whatsoever god has left indifferent , is the subject of humane power . scrup. does not that opinion destroy christian liberty ? conf. no : but the denyal of it destroyes magistracy . if kings have not this power , they have none at all ; and it implyes a contradiction , to suppose any authority in nature without it . scrup. but may not a prince tye himself up in a thing otherwise indifferent ? conf. i speak of power according to the institution , not of power limited by paction . scrup. may not the same thing be indifferent to one , and not so to another ? conf. granted ; and i pray'e follow it a little further . may not every thing imaginable appear non-indifferent to some or other ; if nothing can be commanded , but what upon such a phansy may be disobey'd ? scrup. pardon me , i do not speak of matters of civil concern , but of matters of religion . conf. that 's all a case ; for you cannot instance in any one civil action , that may not be made relative to religion . but stick to the mark ; we are upon the extent of humane power : that there is such a power ; and that authoris'd too by god himself , you have already granted : now tell me , upon what shall that power be exercis'd , if you exclude things indifferent ? one man may have a reall scruple ; and all the rest , pretend one ; who shall distinguish ? so that the rule holding from one , to all , the sacred authority of the prince becomes dependent upon the pleasure of the subject , and the validity of a divine and unchangeable ordinance , is subjected to the mutable judgement and construction of the people . scrup. it may be you expect the magistrate should as well have a power of judging what 's indifferent , as of restreyning it . conf. you may be sure , i do ; for otherwise i 'm where i was , if i make you the judge : is 't not all one , as to the magistrate , whether you refuse upon pretense that the thing is not indifferent , or upon pretense that he cannot restreyn a thing indifferent ? the crime indeed is differing in the subject ; for the one way 't is an usurpation of authority , and the other way , 't is a denyall of it . scrup. why then it seems , i am to believe any thing indifferent , which the magistrate tells me is so , be it never so wicked . conf. no ; there you 're bound up by a superiour law. scrup. have you forgot your self so soon ? 't was but just now , you would not allow me to be a iudge , and here you make me one. conf. right ; to your self you are , but not to the publique : a judge of your own thought , but not of the law. scrup. at your rate of arguing now from one to all ; authority , methinks , should be as much endanger'd this way , as the other ; for all may iudge thus , as well as one. conf. 't is possible they may ; nay wee 'll suppose an imposition foul enough to move them all to do so ; and yet there 's a large difference ; for , diversity of iudgment does not shake the foundation of authority ; and a man may disobey a sinful command with great reverence to the power that imposes it . scrup. you were saying even now , that my duty to god , and to the king , could never be inconsistent : pray'e , how shall i behave my self , if the prince commands one thing , and god , another ? i cannot observe the law , without violence to my conscience , nor discharge my conscience , without offence to the law ; what course shall i take to avoid enterfering ? conf. demean your self as a christian toward the law of god , on the one hand ; and as a subject , toward the ordinance of god on the other : as considering that you are discharg'd of your obedience , but not of your subjection . scrup. suppose the supreme magistrate should by a law establish a false worship . conf. hee 's still your prince , and even in this complication , you may acquit your self both to god , and caesar. divide the worship from the magistrate , and in so doing , you both fear god , and honour the king ; and it is only this loyal and religious separation of our duties , that must set us right in the main controversie . where do ye find that kings reign upon condition of ruling righteously ? or that we owe them less after misgovernment , than we did before ? scrup. but do ye say , we are bound to honour an idolatrous prince ? conf. yes , yes : the prince you are bound to honour , though not as an idolater . shall the vice or error of the person , blemish the faultless dignity of the order ? by that rule , the world must continue without a government , till we can find men without failings . scrup. so that you allow i perceive of distinguishing betwixt the person and the office. conf. betwixt the frailty of the one , and the sacredness of the other , i do : for kings command as gods , though they iudge as men : but i do no more allow of dividing the person of a prince from his authority , then of dividing his soul from his body . scrup. and , i beseech ye , what is that which you call authority ? conf. to tell ye only that it is gods ordinance , falls short , i believe , of the scope of your ▪ question . wherefore take this in surplusage . it is the will and power of a multitude , deliver'd up by common consent to one person or more , for the good and safety of the whole : and this single or plural representative acts for all. take this along with ye too . the disposition of such or such a number of persons into an order of commanding and obeying is that which we call a society . scrup. what is the duty of the supreme magistrate ? conf. to procure the welfare of the people , or , according to the apostle ; he is the minister of god , for a comfort to those that do well , and for a terrour to evill-doers . scrup. how far are his lawes binding upon his subjects ? conf. so far as they that parted with their power had a right over themselves . scrup. whence was the original of power , and what form of government was first , regal , or popular ? conf. power was ordain'd of god , but specify'd by man ; and beyond doubt , the first form of goverment was monarchique . scrup. nay , certainly the popular form was first , for how could there be a king without a people ? conf. so was the son before the father ( you 'll say ) for how could there be a father without a son. but the question is first , was the world ever without a government , since the creation of man ? secondly , whether was first in the world , one man , or more ? i see well enough what 'tis you 'd be at ; you would fain advance the popular form above the regal : which if ye could , 't were nothing to our purpose ; for we are not upon the form of government , but upon the latitude of humaene iurisdiction , be the sovereignty where it will ; and that it extends to whatsoever god has left indifferent , is my assertion . if you deny this , you overthrow all government , ( as is already prov'd ) and if you grant it , we are at liberty for the next enquiry which is concerning , sect . xii . the bounds of toleration ; with some reflections upon schism , and scandal . conf. it is already agreed , that government is a divine ordinance ; and order ( according to the reverend hooker ) is only , a manifestation of the eternal law of god. so that i think , a man may safely pronounce ( upon this allowance ) first , that what principle soever is manifestly destructive of government , or but rationally tending to confusion , cannot le of god. secondly , every man is to content himself in his station as being no farther accomptable , than for what 's committed to his charge . under these two heads will be found ( if i mistake not ) whatsoever belongs to the political part of our debate . we are here to enquire , not how far toleration may be convenient , or otherwise ; but how far warrantable and lawful : and i find it ( by a reverend , and learned prelate ) brought to this standard , [ in the question of toleration , the foundation of faith , good life , and government is to be secur'd . ] wherein is compris'd a provision and care , that we may live as christians toward god ; as members of a community toward one another ; and as loyal subjects toward our sovereign . now if you 'll admit opinions to be only so far tolerable as they consist with these duties of religion , morality , and society , we have no more to do , but to apply matters in controversie to the rules of piety , and good manners , and to the ends of government . scrup. ' t is true ; were men agreed upon those rules : but we see several men have various apprehensions of the same thing ; and that which one man takes for a rule , another counts an errour . conf. by your argument , we shall have no religion , because men differ about the right ; no bible , because men disagree about the meaning of it : no rule , in fine , at all to square our actions by , till truth , and reason shall be establisht by a popular vote . the law says worship thus , or so ; use this form , that ceremony , posture , habit , &c. — the libertine cries no , 't is a confinement of the spirit ; an invention of man ; a making of that necessary which god left free ; a scandal to tender consciences , &c. — and here 's authority concluded , as to the manner of worship . so for the time. how do they know when christ was born , or crucify'd ? nay , they have much adoe to call to mind when the late king was murder'd : but the relief of taunton , and the repulse they gave the cavaliers at lyme : this they can very well remember , and celebrate those daies of mercy with a most superstitious gravity , and form. the churches fasting-daies , they make their iubilees ; and still it happens , that their consciences and the law , run counter . 't is the same thing , as to the place ; command them to church ; they 'll tell ye , there 's no inherent holiness in the walls ; the hearts of the saints , are the temples of the lord. is not god to be found in a parlour , as well as in a steeple-house ? in fine , what 's their plea for all this ; but that , this is one mans iudgment , that , anothers : this or that may be indifferent to you , but not to mee . what 's indifference to christianity ? this sickly humour opens a door to as many controversies as there are men ; it leaves authority , naked ; and exposes the law to any mans scorn , that shall think fit to scruple his obedience . to conclude ; this lawless liberty , razes the very foundation of government ; it creates as many religions , as there are several phansies ; and , briefly , the assertors of this liberty are of the number of those that are not upon any terms to be admitted within the pale of a toleration . scrup. shall the magistrate make me act against my conscience ? conf. shall the subject make him tolerate against his ? but to proceed ; there are that place [ a ] the soveraignty in the diffusive body of the people , that hold it lawfull for the subjects to enter into leagues and covenants , not only without the soveraign's consent , but against his authority ; that call upon the people in the pulpit , [ b ] to assist the forces raised by the parliament , according to their power and vocation , and not to assist the forces raised by the king , neither directly nor indirectly : that proclaym [ c ] the breach of the national covenant , to be a greater sin , then a sin against a command'ment , or against an ordinance — a sin of so high a nature , that god cannot in honour but be aveng'd upon 't . these are a people likewise , whose principles stand in no consistence either with piety or with government ; and can as little pretend to the benefit of a toleration as the former . there are that asfirm , [ d ] reformation of religion to be the people's duty no less then the king 's : [ e ] and that the pastors of the land are oblig'd to reform themselves and religion without the king ; nay , though the king command the contrary . there are that print [ f ] the english episcopal clergy to be sons of belial ; that press the cutting of them off ; that scandalously charge them with drunkennesse , prophanesse , superstition , popishness : to the dishonour of that government which his majesty has sworn to maintain , and to the hazard of the publique peace . these also do i take to be a people , whose practices and opinions threaten a certain and swift destruction both to church and state , wherever they are tolerated . what security can a prince expect , where his mistakes are made the common theme of the pulpit , and where his regalities are subjected , to the good pleasure of his subjects . ze. you do not think it lawfull then i perceive , to tolerate the non-conformists . conf. till they renounce their seditious , and anti-monarchical wayes , i must confess i do not . ze. and which are those i beseech ye ? conf. their inconformity to the law ; their doctrine of conditional obedience : their erecting an ecclesiastical supremacy to overtop the prerogative royall ; to say no more , their declaring the magistrate accomptable to the people . scrup. conformity , you have spoken some sharp truths , and it is to be presum'd that you 'l allow the liberty you take . whether do you believe scandal to be any more tolerable , than schism ? or , are not the sons of the church ( as ye call them ) as guilty of the one , as the non-conformists are of the other . conf. scandal , my good friend , is a general term ; especially as you frequently apply it : and 't is but reason for me to ask your meaning , before i give you my answer . to say , that the sons of the church are guilty of scandal , when , eo nomine , they appear to you scandalous , is no more then to say , that the sons of the church are the sons of the church : for , the church it self , the government , and the rites of it , are all , scandalous to you. wherefore i beseech ye , be a little more particular , that i may understand what scandal you intend , and be as plain , as playn may be . scrup. nay , you shall have it then , and as plainly too as your heart can wish . your position is , that no toleration can warrantably be granted to the hazard of religion , good life , and government . according to that standard , you 'ld find , that the conformists have as little right to a toleration , as their neighbours ; and that the notorious scandal on the one side , out-weighs the pretended schism on the other . but , to make my self understood ; by scandal , i mean publique and habitual prophaneness , sensuality , dissolution of manners , &c. — as , by schism and sedition , i suppose you intend our incomplyances with your church-discipline : our preaching up the power of godliness , against the form of it , ( which you interpret to be a decrying of your ceremonies ) and our exhortings , rather to obey god than man , ( which you are apt to take for an affront to your master's prerogagative . ) 't is true ; we cannot bring up our consciences to your ceremonies , and , for refusing to doe , what we cannot iustifie the doing of , we are baptiz'd , schismatiques . this extermination of us from the publique assembly , puts us upon the necessity of private meetings ; and there we are charg'd with plotts ; and practices upon the state. take it all at the worst , it is but doing that which the whole world agrees must necessarily be done ▪ after such a manner as some people imagine we ought not to do it . so much for the schism of the non-conformists . now put the scandal of the adverse party into the other scale , and you your self shall hold the ballance . set but your tavern-clubs against our conventicles , and ( since you will have it so ) oppose our plotts against the government in the one , to your combinations against god himself in the other ; ( for atheism is become the sport , and wit ; the salt of your most celebrated enterteinments . ) in your own words , [ the eternal verity is made a fable ; religion but a scar-crow , ( the sour impression of a superstitious melancholy , ) nor , is't enough to abandon heaven , unless ye invade it too ; and in the throne of providence , set up the empire , and divinity , of fortune . when you have dash'd the bible out of countenance , with the conceit of the three grand impostors , or some such tart piece of drollery , ( and all this enterlarded with execrable , and study'd blasphemyes ) the man must be cast off , as well as the christian ; and there 's the upshot of your familiar conversations . if such people as these may be tolerated , where 's your ▪ foundation of faith , good life , and government ? conf. we are fallen , i must confess into a lewd age ; and yet truly , when i consider , that this nation has been twenty years under your tuition , 't is a greater wonder to me ; that it is not quite overspread with atheism , than to find it only teinted and infected with it . the reproche and load of this impiety , you have cast upon the episcopal party : but when we come to trace the monster to his den , i 'm afraid we shall bring the footsteps of him up to your own dore. that there are exorbitants in all perswasions , is a thing not to be doubted ; and that there are in ours as well as in others , i will not deny ; but to asperse the cause for personal misdemeanours , is , to my thinking , very disingenuous . if ye will charge personal crimes upon the accompt of a party , you should be sure to make out those crimes to be rationally consequent to the tenents , or actings , of that party . now if you can shew me any affinity betwixt our principles , and those villanyes , you say something ; but if ye cannot , the dust of your argument puts out your own eyes . scrup. you forget that you condemn your own practice ; for why may not i charge personal extravagancies upon your party , as well as you do it upon ours ? conf. only because there is not that affinity ( as i said but now ) betwixt the principles of the party , and the faults of the persons ; on the one side , which i find on the other . to make this as clear as the day , wee 'l open it thus. the episcopal party was for the king , and 't is undenyable , that the king , and the church , had both the same cause , and the same fate . the nonconformists were against the king ; and it is there as unquestionable , that they were the men that destroy'd both church , and state. so that the issue lies within this compass ; whether the soveraignty be in the king , or in the people ? if in the king , the rebellion was on your side ; if in the people , the guilt of the warr lyes upon us . now place the power where ye please ; do ye own the kings authority , or do ye disclaim it ? if ye disclaim it , why do ye petition to your inferiour ? or why should the king favour his competitours ? if ye acknowledge it , wee 'l proceed upon this grant , that the non-conformists were in a rebellion ; and prove that all the transcendent abominations which you compleyn of , are but the proper , and natural fruits , that have proceeded from that root . ze. you know there have been several popular tracts written upon this subject ; as — some-bodyes soveraign power of parliaments . rutherford's lex rex , &c. that never were answer'd yet . conf. well said old true-penny . i think the assemblyes letter to the reformed churches , was never answer'd neither . but , to be serious . there are indeed many dangerous , and seditious treatises that lye unanswer'd ( the more 's the shame , and pity . ) if no body were wiser then my self ; the sum of them all should be confuted in one just volume , and the origina's committed to the fire , for the security of the future . scrup. but you were about to tell us how rebellion begets atheism . conf. well remembred ; and i pray'e observe . there are but two sorts of people that are capable of being drawn into a rebellion , the weak and the wicked ; those that do not understand what they doe , and those that care not what they doe . the ordinary stale , is religion ; the scene of this spiritual imposture is the pulpit , and the arbitrators of the cause are the preachers ; by the benefit of which conjuncture , ( to wit ) of the weight of the matter in question ; [ religion ] with the authority appoynted to determine it ; [ god 's ministers ] it is no hard business for a peinfull and well-affected ministry ( that is , painfull , and well-affected in , and to the design ) to preach the generality of the people into this division : [ i. e. ] those that cannot reach the cheat to scruple at every thing ; and those that go along with it , to make a conscience of nothing : and hence it comes , that this kingdome is so pester'd with enthusiasts , and atheists . zea. but i tell ye again ; the atheists are on the wrong side : the atheists are against us . conf. let me enform ye then , that your proceedings have made atheists , more waies then one. first , the meer quality of your cause , has made atheism the interest of many of your partakers ; who to put off that horrour which attends them if there be a god , endeavour to perswade themselves that there is no god at all . secondly , the work has been carried on under the masque of holiness ; and the most desperate atheist , is nothing else but a crusted hypocrite . i speak of your religious atheist , who has this odds of the prophane , and scoffing wretch , that he abuses god to his face , and in his own house . the great atheists , indeed , are hypocrites ( sayes sir francis bacon ) which are ever handling holy things , but without feeling ; so as they must needs be cauteriz'd in the end. it is remarquable , ( as i have elsewhere observ'd ) that in the holy scripture there are not so many woes pronounc'd , nor so many cautions inculcated , against any sort of people as against hypocrites . you shall there find that god has given the grace of repentance to persecutors , idolaters , murtherers , adulterers , &c. but i 'm mistaken if the whole bible yields any one instance of a converted hypocrite . thirdly , let me tell ye , for the honour of your practises , that as to the defence of atheism , you have done more then all that ever went before ye ; upon that noble argument . your people were not [ a wicked , prophane , drunken ministry ( they would never have setled the ark ) but sober , pious , godly ministers , that did the feat : — a praying , and reforming people . indeed a people that would seize a brother's benefice with more reverence , then any of our prelates gives a charity . zea. be not severe , conformity . conf. then bid your brethren leave their gibbrish , and their iugling ; and wee 'll to our atheism again . answer me soberly , what if a state should grant a toleration , for all men to talk of god-almighty as they please ? scrup. a horrid , impious proposition ! conf. thou art the man , scruple ; that which you ask is more and worse ; for the liberty is the same , and the danger infinitely greater . in earnest , he that looks narrowly through our late troubles , from 1640 to 60. will find matter not only to stagger a weak christian , but to put a wiseman to a second thought ; and to make him exclaim with the prophet , [ lo , these are the ungodly , these prosper in the world , and these have riches in possession — then have i cleansed my heart in vain , and washed my hands in innocency . to see nye , and marshall with their hands lifted up un-the lord in a holy covenant ; swearing to day to defend and preserve the king's majesty's person , &c. and a while after with the same consecrated lips , blessing that cursed vote , that manifestly led to his destruction ( the vote of non-addresses ) which was no more then saying grace to the kings bloud . to see a gang of pulpit-weather-cocks shifting from party to party , till they have run through every point of the compass , swearing , and counter-swearing ; and when the city was split into more factions , then parishes , still to mainteyn , that the whole schism was acted by the holy-ghost . to find the pulpit in stead of plain and saving truths trading only in dark and oraculous delusions , and the pretended messengers of peace , turn'd agents for bloud — to hear and see all this , and more , and the cause prosper too . what could the wit of man add more to this temptation to apostacy ? lastly , i must impute much of that iniquity which now reigns , to your necessitated toleration : i call it necessitated , for you could never have crush't the government without it . that toleration started so many lewd opinions , that it was some degree of modesty , for fear of a worse choyce , to be of no religion at all ; and beyond question , many people finding it left so indifferent of what religion they were ; became themselves as indifferent , whether they were of any religion or no. you have forc'd me here , in my own defence , to be a little sharper then i intended ; and truly since we are in thus far , and that the schismatiques think it so mighty a matter to hit the prelatical party i' th' teeth at every turn , with the imputation of scandal ; i beseech ye tell me , which o' the two do you count the more tolerable , scandal , or schism ? scrup. if by schism you mean , a refusal to joyn with that church where i cannot communicate without sin : and if you intend by scandal , such actions as are of ill example , and administer occasion to your neighbour of falling , i think 't is easily determin'd , that the one is not to be suffer'd , and the other not to be condemn'd . conf. when i speak of schism , and scandal , let not me be understood , to speak of this or that sort , or degree of either ; but in the just latitude both of the one , and the other : that is ; without more circumstance , which do you take for the more tolerable mischief of the two ? scrup. truly betwixt a perverse-separation , and a notorious scandal , i think the choyce is hard : but i rather incline against the scandal . conf. then let me tell ye , schism is both ; and if ye will believe sir francis bacon , [ heresies and schisms , are of all others the greatest scandals ; yea more then corruption of manners . ] consider it first , as it stands in opposition to unity , ( which is the bond both of religion , and society ) what can be more scandalous then that which renders religion it self , ridiculous ? and that 's the effect of schism . to see so many several factions grinning one upon another , and yet all pretending to the same one , and infallible spirit ! to bring it homer , how great a shame and trouble is this to those that are within us ! how great a discouragement to such as are without us ; and how great a subject of rejoycing is it to those that are against us ! how many ( in fine ) has it driven from us ; and how many more has it hinder'd from coming to us ! again ; 't is seldome , ( i think i might say , never ) seen , that schism goes alone : and in effect , it is but sedition in a disguise . for we find that our scrupulous dissenters , can with great ease , and unity , agree in a war , though not in a ceremony . scrup. and may there not be conspiracies in scandal , as well as in schism ? there , with an evident design to bring contempt upon religion : whereas here , we find at least a colour , and pretence to uphold it . beside ; the sins which i accompt scandalous , are , many of them , levell'd at the prerogative of god himself ; and , in short , the question is not properly , and simply , betwixt schism , and scandal , but betwixt schism , and ail other sins whatsoever that may be propagated by conversation ; ( for that 's the latitude of scandal ) zea. again , let me observe from your own mouth , that heresies are scandals , and several heresies you know , both by the laws of god and man , are punish'd with death . he that blasphemeth the name of the lord , shall be put to death . and from hence you may gather some difference sure , betwixt the heynousness of the one , and of the other . conf. if you will measure the sin by the punishment , you 'll proceed by a very uncertain rule : for political laws regard rather publique conveniences , than particular cases of conscience . a man shall lose his life for picking a pocket , and but hazard his ears for a false oath . but if you 'll refer the matter to the just and infallible judge of all the world , ●● god himself ; look but into that dreadful judgement upon the schism of korah . korah , dathan , &c. rose against moses with two hundred and fifty captains of the assembly , famous in the congregation , and said unto them , ye take too much upon you , since all the congregation is holy , every one of them , and the lord is among them . wherefore then lift ye your selves above the congregation of the lord. [ and what follow'd ? ] the earth open'd her mouth , and swallow'd them up with their families , and all the men that were with korah , &c. a fire came out from the lord , and consum'd the two hundred and fifty men that offer'd the incense . this set the multitude a muttering against moses and aaron ; saying ye have kill'd the people of the lord. see now what came of this muttring too : fourteen thousand seven hundred of them were consum'd by a plague . zea. well! but what if you 'll understand that to be schism , which i know to be conscience ? conf. then have you the same freedome to be even with me , upon the point of scandal ; and so the controversie must be endless for want of a judge to decide it . sect . xiii . the necessity of a final , and unaccomptable judge . conf. what 's your opinion of the necessity of a iudge ? ze. i 'm clearly for a judge ; that is , for a iudge furnish'd as well with a competency of understanding to determine aright , as with a power and commission to determine . conf. a iudge supposes one competency , as well as the other ; but the determination must be final , and decisive ; no appeal from it , and no contending beyond it . ze. what not in case of errour ? i should be sorry to see a roman infallibility set up in england . conf. how you start now from the shadow of an infallible judge , into the inconvenience of none at all ! you would have a judge you say : but then , that judg must be questionable , in case of errour ; so that another judg is to judg him , and the very judg of this judg is himself questionable ; and so is his judg , and his judges judg ; ( to the end of the chapter ) in case of errour : which case of errour may be alledg'd , wheresoever there 's no infallibility ; and if there be no infallibility in nature , then by your rule , there can be no iudg in nature . ze. i do not say but a man may iudg certainly in some cases , though not infallibly in all ; and my demand is only the free exercise of my iudgment of discretion , without being ty'd up to an implicit resignation . there is ( in short ) but a right , and a wrong ; and the one i must embrace , and reject the other . how shall i know this from that , without enquiry ? and what am i the better for that enquiry , if when i have learn'd my duty , i am debar'd the liberty to practise it ? conf. you turn the question here from the necessity of a judge , to his infallibility . 't is not a half-penny to me , whether you make him infallible , or credible , or probable ; or what you make him , or where you place him , provided that he be acknowledg'd ▪ necessary , and unaccomptable . necessary , i suppose you will not stick at : for there can be no peace without him , every man being at liberty to wrangle , where no man is authoris'd to determine . zea. what is it that either invites tyranny , or upholds it , but the opinion of an unaccomptable-sovereignty ? conf. what is it rather ( you should have said ) that excites sedition , and depopulates kingdomes , but the contrary ? and the fiercest tyranny , is much more supportable then the mildest rebellion . zea. i shall readily allow you the convenience of a definitive judgment , if you will but secure me from the danger of a definitive injustice . conf. you mistake your self , if you oppose a possible injury on the one side , to a certain strife and confusion on the other . if infallibility you cannot find , why may not the the fairest probability content you ? zea. but would you have that probability , govern by unquestionable , and authoritative conclusions ? conf. by any means ; ye do nothing , else ; for where controversies are inevitable , and concord necessary ; what can be more reasonable , than to chuse the most competent iudge of the matter in controversie , for the concluding umpire of the controversie it self ? scrup. but a man may iudge probably in one case , and improbably in another . suppose the determination to be manifest errour , or injustice ; would you have the same submission pay'd to 't , as if it were equity , and truth ? conf. yes ; to the determination , though not to the errour : you are to stand to the authority of the sentence , without contesting the equity of it : for right or wrong , 't is a decision . the principal scope , and sure end of a reference , is peace : the hopeful event , and issue of it , is , righteous judgment . is it not well then , to be sure of the one , and in so fair hopes of the other ? put it to the worst : you are not bound to be of the judge his opinion , but to be over-rul'd by his authority : neither do you undertake that he shall judge wisely as to the subject of the question , but that he shall judge effectually , as to the purpose of the reference . scrup. this resignation may do well , in cases of civil interest : but it will hardly hold in matters of conscience . who shall pretend to iudge of my conscience , beside god , and my self ? conf. the scripture , which is the rule of all consciences , shall be the iudge of yours . but the question is not , what your conscience is , but what it ought to be : not what your private judgment says , but what the scripture means : and the thing i strive for , is a judge of that ; a iudge of the rule of faith ; which i take to be all out as necessary as a iudge of a political law. you cannot but allow , that there are diversities of opinions , as well in religion , as concerning secular affairs : and such is our corruption , that we draw poyson even from the fountain of life , and the word of god it self , is made the warrant of all crimes , and the foundation of all heresies . look behind ye , and you may see a prince murther'd by his subjects , authority beheaded by a pretended law , and all this defended by a text. the church dovour'd by a divided ministry ; the government overturn'd by a solemn league and covenant , to support it . an arbitrary power introduc'd by the patrons of liberty , and charity it self extinguish'd for the advancement of the gospel . we have liv'd to see as many haeresies , as congregations ; and among those of the classical way , a consistorian sarutiny exercised beyond the rigour of a spanish inquisition . we have seen some that a abhor idols , committing sacriledge ; christ's kingdome cry'd up , till his b divinity is deny'd : strictness of life inculcated , till the very rule of it ( the c decalogue it self ) is rejected . and blasphemy hunted out of the tavern , into the pulpit . in short ; what sin , and misery have we not known , and felt , since under the form of liberty of conscience , this freedome of a private spirit came in vogue ? nor are we ever to expect better from it , till all men shall conspire to do the same thing , where every man is left to his own gust , to do what he pleases : and whence flowes all this mischief , and confusion , but from a licence of wandring from the rule ? shew the people a written law ; they 'll tell you of a law of nature ; and distinguish betwixt [ the d politique power they have given the king , and the natural power which they reserve to themselves . ] bid them reverence the king as the supreme governour : they 'll answer you , no : hee 's but the servant , and vassal of the people : his royalty is only a virtual emanation from them ; and in them radically , as in the first subject . ( according to rutherford , parker , goodwin , bridges , milton , and a hundred more ) come to the point of non-resistence , and you shall hear , that a wheresoever a king , or other supreme authority creates an inferiour , they invest it with a legitimacy of magistratical power , to punish themselves also , in case they prove evil-doers : yea , and to act any other thing , requisite for the praise and encouragement of the good. if it be demanded in what capacity the king may be resisted ? hear rutherford again b the man who is king may be resisted , but not the royal office ; the king in concreto , may be resisted ; but not the king in abstracto . ] . but in what manner may he be resisted ; and by what means . c he may be resisted in a pitch'd battel , and with swords and guns . that is ; his d private will may be resisted , not his legal will ; neither is he present in the field as a e king , but as an injust invader , and grassator . if he chance to be slain : 't is but an f accident ; and who can help it ? g hee 's guilty of his own death ; or h let them answer for 't that brought him thither . i the contrary party is innocent . but this resistence , is only justifiable ( i hope ) in magistrates , or authoritative assemblies ; as parliaments , &c. rutherford sayes nay to that . all powers must be serv'd with the same sauce , if they abuse their trust. k [ the people can give no other power , then such as god has given them ; and god has never given a moral power to do ill. ] l [ all fiduciary power , abus'd , may be repeal'd ; and parliamentary power is no other : which , if it be abus'd , the people may repeal it ; and resist them ; annulling their commissions ; rescinding their acts , and denuding them of their fiduciary power : even as the king himself may be denuded of the same power , by the three estates ] and goodwin tells us , in little ; that a all humane lawes , and constitutions , are made with knees to bend to the law of nature and necessity . well ; but suppose the prince has the good hap to scape gun-shot ; and only to become a prisoner ; you have no law to try him by , he has no peers , what course will you take with him ? milton's opinion is that b every worthy man in parliament , might , for the publique geod , be thought a fit peer , and iudge of the king ; ] and goodwin dogmatizes , that c [ where there is no opportunity , for the interposure of other iudges , the law of nature , and of nations allows every man to iudge in his own case . ] parker comes homer yet d there never was ( says he ) a greater harmony of the lawes of nature , reason , prudence , and necessity to warrant any act , then may be found , and discern'd in that act of iustice on the late king ; ] now if you 'll see a piece of treason crown'd with blasphemy , carry your eve four pages farther . e god himself had eclips'd , yea lost the brightest beam of his divine glory , that ever shin'd on this lower world , if he had not some way or other , brought that person to some eminent , and praeter-natural punishment . ] me thinks these practices should put you , and your cause out of countenance . scrup. you must understand , that though my reason lies against uniformity , yet i 'm no advocate for anarchy : and 't is with non-conformists as with other people ; there are good and bad , of all sorts . but to go with the moderate : would you have all mens consciences govern'd by the same rule , when 't is impossible to bring them all to the same mind ? conf. better , particulars suffer for incompliance with the publique , than the publique suffer for complying with particulars . uniformity is the ciment of both christian , and civil societies : take that away , and the parts drop from the body ; one piece falls from another . the magistrate , ( for order's sake ) requires uniformity ; you , and your associates oppose it upon a plea of conscience ; and the question is , whether he shall over-rule your opinions ; or you over-rule his authority ? this dispute begets a war , for want of a iudge , and to prevent that mischief , i offer that a iudge is necessary . or put it thus : you and i differ , and possibly we are both of us in the wrong ; but most certainly , we are not both in the right : and yet neither of us but thinks well enough of his own opinion . what 's to be done in this case ? shall we wrangle eternally ? scrup. no ; wee 'll rather put the matter to arbitration . conf. well! but the arbiter himself is fallible , and may mistake too ; or let him have the wisdome of an angel , he cannot please us both : for that which seems right to the one will appear wrong to the other . shall we stand to his award what ever it be ? if not ; take into your thought these consequences . you refuse to submit because 't is wrong : i may refuse , by the same reason , though it be right : ( for every man's reason is of equal force , where there is no common , and representative reason to bind all ) so that by your reckoning ; every man is in the right to himself , and in the wrong to all the world beside ; every man's hand is against his brother , and his brother 's against him. ( at least if i deceive not my self , in my perswasion , that nature never produc'd two persons , in all points , of the same judgment . ) now , if you can neither deny confusion to be the natural effect of this liberty of judgment ; nor the want of a regulating , and decretory sentence , to be the manifest cause of this confusion , i hope you 'll grant me the necessity of an unaccomptable judge . scru. is not the word of god a sufficient iudge ? conf. no ; that 's no iudge , but [ a rule for christians to iudge by ] and the great hazard lies upon the meaning of that rule . what swarms of heresies have over-spread this land , since the bible has been deliver'd up to the interpretation of private spirits ? scrup. you say well , if you could direct me to a iudge that we might all relie upon . conf. and you say something too , if you could make appear , that none at all , is better then the best we have : or that popular errours , numberless and inevitable ( with the dissolution of communities to boot ) are to be preferr'd to the few , and only possible , failings of authority , attended with peace , and agreement . but to come to the short of the question ; this is it : whether will you rather have , one fallible iudge ; or , a million of damnable heresies ? scrup. truly , as you have reduc'd it , to a certainty of peace the one way , and to as great a certainty of discord the other ; to a certainty of many errours without a iudge , and to a bare possibility of some few , with one ; i am content in this particular , to think a final iudge necessary . conf. if you find it so in the church , sure you will not dispute it in the state , especially against an experience too , the most forcible of all reasons . we were never troubled with constructive necessities ; with cavils about the receptacle of power , and the limits of obedience : with distinctions betwixt the political , and the natural right of the people ; the legal , and personal will of the prince ; and betwixt the equity and letter of the law ; till judgment was forc'd from its proper course , and channel , and the decision of right and wrong , committed to the frivolous and arbitrary determinations of the multitude . scrup. pray'e by your leave . i am as much for a iudge , as you ; but not for one judge to all purposes ; nor , i confess , for any iudge so absolute as you would have him . conf. i tell ye again ; a iudge , and no absolute judge , is no judge : and you shall as soon find the end of a circle , as of a controversie , by such a iudge . nor is it my meaning , that one iudge should serve for all purposes . scrup. will you divide your matter then , and assign to every judicable point , his proper judge ? conf. you say well ; for truly i do not take the magistrate to be any more a judge of my conscience , than i am of his. scrup. 't is very right ; and it were an encrochement upon the prerogative of god himself , for him to challenge it . conf. how comes it now , that we that agree so well i' the end , should differ so much ' i th' way to 't ? but i hope , the clearing of the next point will set us through-right : for after the setling of the iudge , we have nothing further to do but to submit ; and so wee 'll forward . sect . xiv . the three great iudges of mankind , are , god , magistrates , and conscience . conf. some things we do as men ; other things as men in society ; and some again as christians . in the first place , we are acted by the law of individuals ; which law is , in the second place , subjected to that of government ; and both these lawes are , in the third place , subordinate to that of religion ; i. e. the law of god's reveal'd will. so that the three great judges of mankind , are , god , magistrates , and conscience . man , as consisting of soul , and body , may be again subdivided within himself . take him in his lower capacity , and hee 's sway'd by the general law of animal nature ; but in his divine part , you 'll find him govern'd by the nobler law of refin'd reason : which reason , in some respects , may be call'd prudence ; and in others , conscience ; according as 't is variously exercis'd . the things which we do purely as men , ( abstracted from any ingredients of policy , or regulated religion ) are either natural actions , prudential , or moral . of the first sort , are those actions to which we are prompted by a natural impulse , in order to the conservation of life , and beeing . of the third sort , are such actions as we perform in obedience to moral principles ; ( which are no other than the divine will veil'd under the dictate of humane reason ) and betwixt these two , lies the region of middle actions ; that is , of such actions , as although not of simple and strict necessity , either to life , or virtue , are notwithstanding useful , and commodious , for the guidance , and comfort of the one , and for the practice of the other . the accurate disquisition of this interest , laies the axe to the root of the question ; for nothing has embroyl'd us more , then the mistaken rights of individuals ; which mistakes being once clear'd , by laying open the subordination of several claims , and powers , every man may take a distinct view of his own province . zea. proceed regularly n●●● , and state these subordinations as you go . conf. content ; and we are now upon the right of individuals ; in which naked simplicity of considering man ▪ without any regard to the ordinary motions of providence , in the order , and regiment of the world , we shall yet find a manifest subordination within himself , and the law of sense , under the dominion of the law of reason in the same subject . these are the laws which the apostle calls , the law of his members , and the law of his will. the former ( and the less excellent ) law , is the law sensitive ; which is no other than the law of self-preservation , ( indeed , the supreme law of animal beings , as of rationals , the lowest ; ) this law sensitive is ( effectually ) the manifestation of god , in the creature . ( for what sense does , nature does ; and what nature does , god does ) zea. but what is that power which you call nature ? conf. it is the ordinary working of god in all his creatures ; by virtue of which divine influence , every thing is mov'd to seek the utmost perfection whereof it is capable . as for the purpose . the perfection of man , is the congruity of his actions , with his reason , which is nothing else but that which we call virtue . the perfection of beasts , is a degree lower ; they are mov'd only by a sensual impulse , toward what 's convenient for them , and when they have it , they rest. scrup. i can but laugh , when people are gravell'd , to see how they run to their impulses , and occult qualities ; which is but a more learned way of saying , [ they don't know what ] pray'e spare me a word ; what difference is there betwixt their impulse , and our choyce ? conf. pre'thee be quiet , unless thou hast a mind to have a toleration for thy dog. their impulse carries them on through a sensitive search , not any deliberative discourse : and no election neither at last ; but only the simple prosecution of a determinate appetite , without imagining any proportion , betwixt the means , and the end. scrup. but still we find that there is a proportion ; and the motion appears to us , according to the method of reason , and orderly proceeding from question to resolution . conf. is it reason think ye , that makes a dog follow his nose , and hunt for meat when hee 's hungry ? or will ye call it choyce , if he leaves a turfe for a bone ? in short ; hee 's mov'd by instinct , toward the end ; and sense carries him through the means . scrup. but why should the same process of means , and the same application of causes , be ascrib'd only to instinct in brutes , and to reason in man ? conf. you must take notice , that all natural operations , are regular and ordinate , by what means soever perform'd ; but it does not follow , because the method is according to reason , that therefore the instrument must be reasonable . but to mind our business . the law of self-preservation , is a law common to beasts with men ; but not of equal force : for their sovereign interest is life , ours is virtue ; and therefore your argument for defensive arms , upon pretext of that extremity , was but a brutish plea ; for , if the consideration of virtue be not above that of life , where lies the advantage of our reason ? scrup. but when the death is certain , and the virtue doubtfull , who shall decide the question ? conf. in a case abstracted from the tyes , and duties of religion , and government ; every mans reason sits as iudge upon his own life . as for instance ; you 're in the hands of thieves ; and upon this condition , either to take a false oath , or to lose your life . your conscience tells ye , you must rather perish . but if without violence to a superiour duty , you can preserve your self , you 're your own murderer , if you do not . thus far i think wee 're safe , and i suppose agreed ; that every individual is to govern himself by his natural conscience ; but when the several particulars come to be bundled up in one community , the case is otherwise . scrup. i am sorry to hear ye say that . why should not every man be govern'd by his own conscience , as well in consort , as in solitude ? or , will ye have it , that our duty to god ceases , in the act of becoming subjects to a civil magistrate ? conf. not so quick , and you shall have it . as to your conscience , you are as free now , as you were before ; but your body is no longer your own , after you 're once admitted a member of a society ; and there 's the difference . you were your own servant before , and now you are the king 's : ( for what is government , but the wisdom , resolve , and force of every particular , gather'd into one understanding , will , and body ? ) and this comes up to what i have already deliver'd ; that , whatsoever god has left indifferent , is the subject of humane power . scrup. but who shall be judg of what 's indifferent ? conf. wee 'l scan that , the very next thing we doe . you are already satisfi'd , that an authoris'd iudg is absolutely necessary , in order to the peace of church and state ; and to the ending of all publique differences : but we are not yet agreed upon our judges , or , if we were , yet in regard our judges are but men , and so may erre , [ infallibility being departed with christ and his apostles , in lieu of which living and infallible guides , god has in providence given us a plain and infallible rule ] it may withall be taken into thought , how far a private judge may be allow'd to opine against a publique , in case of a reluctant conscience , and ( in some sort ) to judge his iudg. scrup. you say very well ; for , place the ultimate decision where you will , 't is ( as you said before ) an infallible determination as to the strife , but not so , as to the truth ; and it comes to this at last , that every man , in some degree , re-judges his judge . if i am fully convinc'd , either that the command is sinfull in it self , or the opinion wicked ; i am neither to obey the one , nor to embrace the other ; as being ty'd up by the general obligation , of rather obeying , and believing god , then man. nay more ; if in obedience to the magistrate , i commit a sin against god ; and that ignorantly too ; that very act , in ignorance , is criminal , if i had the means of being better enform'd : for certainly , no humane respect , can justifie an offence against god ; now if i am bound to do nothing that is ill , i am likewise bound , before i do anything , to satisfie my self whether it be ill or no : for otherwise , i may swallow a false religion for a true , and be damn'd at last , for not minding what i did ; which i take to be proof sufficient , that no man is so implicitly oblig'd to rely upon other mens eyes , as totally to abandon the direction of his own ; or so unconditionally to swear obedience to other mens lawes , and perswasions , as to hold no intelligence at all , with that sacred law , and faithfull counsellor , which he carryes in his own bosom . conf. forgive me , if you imagine that i would have ye renounce your reason . no , but on the contrary , i would have ye to be guided , and concluded by 't , and only to obey for quiet 's sake , so far as you can possibly obey in conscience . scrup. what if a single person hitts that truth which a general council misses ? which will you have him follow ? truth , or authority ? conf. why truly both ; truth with his soul , and authority with his body : but so remote a possibility must not presume to bolster up the thinkings of a private spirit against the resolutions of authority ; yet for the very possibility's sake , wee 'l take that supposition likewise into our care , and word the sum of the whole matter plainly thus : the church says , ye may do ; and the law says , ye must do , that which your conscience says , you ought not to do. how will you reconcile your duty , and your conscience , in this case ? scrup. very well ; for i think it my duty to obey my conscience , upon this principle , that conscience is god's substitute over individuals . conf. keep to that ; and answer me again . is not the civil magistrate god's substitute too ? if he bee , how comes your conscience to take place of his authority ? they are both commission'd alike , and consequently , they are both to bee obey'd alike ; which is impossible , where their commands are inconsistent . scrup. the magistrate is a publique minister , and his commission does not reach to particular consciences . conf. 't is very right ; and on the other side , my friend scruple is a private person , and there 's as little reason to pretend that his opinion should operate upon a publique law. so that if i mistake ye not , wee are agreed thus far , that every particular is to look to one , and the king to the whole . scrup. i do not much oppose it . conf. if your brother zeal , would deal as candidly , with me now about the ecclesiastical power , as you have done in the civill , we might make short work of this question ; and i hope he will not deny , that the church is as well [ a ] authoris'd to teach , and instruct in all the external acts of worship , as [ b ] the magistrate is to compell to those external acts. ze. there is no doubt , but [ c ] the church , [ as the church ] has a ministerial power , ex officio , to define controversies according to the word of god ; and that [ d ] a synod ▪ lawfully conven'd , is a limited , ministerial , and bounded visible judg , and to be believed in , so far as they follow christ , the peremptory and supreme judg , speaking in his own word . conf. this will not do our business yet ; for , if a synod be but to be believed in so far as it followes christ ; &c. they that ought to be concluded by that act , are left the iudges of it , and the credit of the authority , rests upon the conscience , ( or , if you please , the phansy or humour ) of the believer : and so there 's no decision . ze. [ e ] the truth is , we are to believe truths determin'd by synods , to be infallible , and never again lyable to retraction or discussion ; nor because [ so sayes the synod ] but because [ so sayes the lord ▪ ] conf. still y' are short ; for 't is not in our power to disbelieve what we acknowledge to be a truth ; but that which is truth at the fountain , may become errour in the passage ; or at least appear so to me ; and what then ? ze. it must be look'd upon as an errour of the conscience , which is no discharge at all of your obedience : from which errour , you are to be reclaym'd , either by instruction , or censure . for , the people are oblig'd to [ obey those that are over them in the lord , who watch for their souls , as those who must give an accompt ; ] and not oblig'd to stand to , and obey the ministerial , and official judgement of the people , [ he that heareth you ( ministers of the gospel , not the people ) heareth mee , and he that despiseth you , despiseth mee . ] conf. then i find we shall shake hands . you two , gentlemen , are joyntly engag'd against the act for uniformity ; and yet ye cannot say , that it wants any thing to give it the full complement of a binding law : whether ye regard either the civil , or the ecclesiastical authority . here 's first , the judgment of the church duely conven'd , touching the meetness , and convenience of the rites and forms therein conteyn'd . you have next , the royal sanction , approving , and authorising those rites , and forms , and requiring your exact obedience to them. now so it is , that you can neither decline the authority of your iudges , nor the subjection of your dutyes ; what is it then that hinders your obedience ? scrup. that which to me is more then all the world ; it goes against my conscience . conf. only that point then , and no more upon this subject . that god is the iudg of the world ; that the church is the iudg of what properly concerns religion ; that the civil magistrate is the iudg of what concerns the publique peace ; and that every mans conscience is the iudg of what concerns his own soul ; is already clear'd : the remaining difficulty is this , how i am to behave my self in a case , where the law bids me do one thing , and my conscience , another . to take a true estimate of what 's before us , we must first ballance the two interests that meet in competition . there is in favour , and for the execution of the law , ( meaning that of uniformity , ) 1. the personal conscience , and 2. the political conscience of the king. there is likewise for the equity of it , the solemn and deliberate iudgment of the church : which is , effectually , the publique conscience ; and lastly , for the observance of it ▪ there is the duty of the subject , ( which , if it be withdrawn , does not only invalidate this particular act , but it loosens the sinews of sovereign authority ; and , which is more , it destroyes even a divine ordinance ; for , take away obedience , and government lapses into confusion . ) now for the counterpoize ; against this law , and thus supported , appears your naked conscience . nay , that 's the fairest on 't , it may be worse , and in truth , any thing that 's ill , under that name . scrup. but what 's the world to mee , in the scale against my soul ? conf. you have great reason sure , and 't is no more than every man may challenge : that is , to stand , or fall , to his own conscience : is that your principle ? scrup. yes , out of doubt ; 't is mine , and yours , and his , and any man's that's honest. conf. well , hold ye a little : your conscience will not down with this law , it seems ; and this law will as little down with your conscience . weigh now the good against the bad ; what if it stands ? what if it yields ? make the case worse then 't is ; as bad as bad may be , in your own favour , you cannot comply with the law ; and the law will not stoop to you. what follows upon 't ? scrup. the ruine of many godly people that desire to worship god according to his word . conf. that plea wrought little upon you from us ; but let that pass . what sort of ruine do ye mean ? ruine of liberty ? or estate ? ( for this law draws no bloud ) state your misfortunes i beseech ye . scrup. no man must hold a benefice , or teach a school , but upon terms of such subscription , or acknowledgement , as many an honest man would rather dye , then consent to : so that we are distrest , not only for our selves , as being depriv'd of the comfort of all spiritual , and heavenly freedomes ; but our poor infants are expos'd to be undone , wanting the means of a religious education . conf. if this be all , never trouble your selves ; for many an honest man has out-liv'd more than this comes to . in short , there 's a huge clamour ; but ( god knows ) with very little reason . some particulars will possibly suffer for want of a toleration : and who are they ; but ( most of them ) the actual enemies of the king ; and all of them , the profest opposers of the law ? if you would see the event of granting what you ask ; turn but your face toward — 41 , and then blush , and repent . do so ; and thank his majesty for your heads , without troubling him with your consciences . beside ; you 're not aware , that in contesting with the law , you quarrel with your self : there 's your own vote against ye ; and all this muttering is no other then your factious will , wrangling with your political consent . yet still i say , stick to your conscience . scrup. your raillery is ill plac'd . conf. then 't is the better for my earnest : and 't is in very , very great earnest that i speak it . wee 'll come now to the push , and , without what 's , or why 's , lay down for granted , that there is a real distance betwixt this act , and your conscience . how will you divide your duty ? scrup. i 'll follow your advice , and stick to my conscience . conf. you do the better : now , change hands ; and phansie your self the supreme magistrate . he has a double conscience . one , that concerns himself , th' other his people . what his majesty's personal iudgement is , has been declar'd abundantly ; what his prudential iudgment may dispose him to , lies in his royal brest . but be that as heaven shall order it , here 's the partition of your rights . the king's prerogative has nothing to do with your conscience , and your conscience , has as little to do with his majesty's prerogative . the king is accomptable to god for the welfare of his people , and you are only accomptable to god for the good of your little particular . if you cannot obey the law ; do not : but abide the penalty . if the sovereign cannot relax the law , he 's as free to execute it . your conscience requires liberty ; and your governour 's conscience requires order , and the very ground of your demand , is the reason of his refusal . now why you should expect that your sovereign should bring down his conscience to yours , when you find , upon experiment , that you cannot perswade your own up to his , is to me a mystery . to conclude ; keep your self within your sphere , and where you cannot consent as a christian , submit as a subject . scrup. i cannot much deny the colour of your argument , and yet me thinks there 's so much to be said too , for toleration , that i 'm affraid you 'll leave me as you found me . conf. i 'll sterve thee first ; for thou shalt eat no meat till thou' rt my convert : wherefore go on , and do thy worst . sect . xv. the toleration , which the non-conformists desire , has neither ground nor president . scrup. 't is a most horrible kind of persecution . conf. why then government 's a most horrible ord'nance . for the punishment of evil-doers , is the one half of the magistrates commission : and what 's an evil-doer , but the transgressour of a law ? scrup. but , what do ye think , when the making of one law is the transgression of another ? conf. i think , such a law is better broken then kept . but remember the iudge , my friend ; and know , that laws are made for the community , not for particulars ; and good , or bad , they 're laws still . suppose them cruel ; y 'had as good say , the king 's a tyrant , as call them so ; for the law is no other than the king 's written will. now to your persecution again ; say what ye will , y' are safe . scrup. do not you take the persecuting party to be generally in the wrong ? conf. i was of that opinion three or four year agoe . but if it be so , the persecuted have the less reason to compleyn , having so comfortable a marque of being in the right . scrup. but what can justifie the very constitution of a persecuting law ? conf. you should rather have asked , what can justifie the toleration of a troublesome people ? the law stands fixt , and immovable ; and yet upon a guard too . you attaque that , and then ye cry , that ( or the magistrate ) hurts you : which is thereabout , as if you should throw your self upon the point of a sword , and then curse the cutler . scrup. christians ' will not persecute pagans for conscience , and yet they worry one another . conf. and in some cases they may have reason : for an infidel is less dangerous to the publique than an apostate . and beside : the one is but giving quarter to a fair , and open enemy ; the other is to take a snake into your bosome . the one , in fine , denies but your opinion ; the other , your authority . pray'e take notice by the by , that which you call persecution , i translate uniformity . scrup. how shall the magistrate distinguish , whom he should punish , and whom not ? conf. better a great deal , whom he should punish , than whom he should spare . they act ; and then he brings those actions to a rule , and that shews him whether they are streight , or crooked . scrup. how do you know but you may persecute god himself , in a right conscience ? conf. i tell ye , you are not punish'd for your thoughts , but for your actions : and you 'd inferr , that because ( for ought i know ) any man may be in the right , no man must therefore be presum'd to be in the wrong ; that were to grant a sanctuary to wickedness , and to confound sin with conscience . scrup. does not god command , that the tares should be let alone till the harvest ? conf. but if that were meant of practical impieties , how should governours be a terrour to evil-doers ; when all malefactors must be let alone till the day of judgement ? scrup. alas ! alas ! severity , at best , does but make hypocrites . conf. but , by your leave , forbearance does it much more : for those that come in for fear , never went off for conscience , and so were hypocrites before : and then you never consider those infinite swarms of seditious spirits that throw themselves into the tolerated party under the veile of sanctity . in fine ; 't is much more advisable to take away the liberty of some , then to grant a liberty to all. for betwixt those that are not wise , where is great hazard of errour ; and those that are not honest , where is great danger of design ( with your leave , gentlemen ) you 'll find well nigh the computation of your party . but why do i stand fencing in a case , where all that 's good for ought , even in the favour'd party , runs nigh an equal perill ? is any honest man the better for the last war ? ( i mean , save those that are forgiven ) scrup. then you presume a war. conf. or what is equal to 't ; a standing army , upon necessity to keep them quiet . for in this town , a toleration of religion is cousin-german to a licence for rebellion : and at the best , 't is but one ill that procreates another . scrup. and can you imagine that so many restless humours , and disturb'd consciences , will ever be quiet without it ? conf. you talk of conscience . shew me a conscience , make proof of a conscience . i 'll shew ye a thousand things like consciences : but alas ! narrowly look'd into , what are they but meere phansie , artifice , or delusion ? a company of people thus divided ; the one half of them deceive us , and the other half of them deceive themselves ; for 't is not what every man thinks , that is presently conscience ; but what every body thinks , in congruity with the word of god ; and of that word , the church is the best judge . if conscience alone be sufficient , the bible is superfluous : nay if conscience , joyn'd with the bible , be sufficient , what becomes of the apostles commission ; [ go , and teach all nations ? ] we shall undertake to teach them , whom our saviour has appointed to teach us . but this is a little beside our business ; for the stress of the question , in order to a toleration , does not bear so much upon this point , whether your opinions be true or false ; as whether safe or dangerous . there are a sort of people that reason by one principle , and act by another ; that begin with liberty of conscience , and end with the liberty of the subject : if you be of that number , there 's death in the pot , and no enduring of ye . further , liberty of conscience turns naturally into liberty of government , and therefore not to be endur'd ; especially in a monarchy ; and to say truth , 't is commonly the method of embroyling kingdoms ; and but the embryo of sedition . than which , nothing lyes opener to him that will only attend these two particulars : first , in those times , when there is generally the least care of religion , you shall observe commonly , the most talk of it ; and that too , among such as least understand it . if this impulse be not acted by conscience , 't is from a worse principle , and by no means to be encourag'd ; for the mass of the people is already in a distemper ; and those out-cryes and transports for toleration , are but the convulsions of a sick government . secondly , ecclesiastical and civil affairs are so twisted and enterwoven , that what party soever clayms a right of freedom to the former , may be fairly suspected to have a design likewise upon the latter : for the threds are so enterlayd , that both interests make , effectually , but one piece ; so that the state that allowes the people a freedom to choose their religion , is reasonably to expect that they will take a freedom likewise to choose their government . scrup. but why should a toleration do worse here than in holland ? conf. i would y 'had found a better instance . but , not to dispute how they came thither ; let it suffice , that where they are , a toleration would bring us . scrup. what do ye think of poland then ? conf. i think , that story speaks little in your favour , either in respect of their frequent seditions , or in regard of their prodigious and heretical opinions ; and yet they lye under the strongest obligation in nature to keep them quiet ; the turk being their neighbour ; which makes their case to be an agreement rather against a common enemy , than among themselves . but back to holland , theirs is no perfect toleration : for , ye see , in the case of arminius ; finding barnevelt in the head of the party , ( of whose intendments , the states were at that time jealous ) they would not upon any terms allow that freedom to the arminians , which they did to others ; but conven'd a synod , and exterminated the sect. there 's a great difference too betwixt the interest , and condition , of their ministers , and ours . theirs preach but upon good-behaviour ; they live upon the states-pay ; and upon the least colour of offence , they may be turn'd off at pleasure ; whereas our clergy have a free-hold in their benefices for term of life ; and if they be factiously dispos'd , they may evade the law to do a mischief , without making a forfeiture . consider next , that their case , was in some sort your own , only a common cause kept ye united . in fine , nothing but the fear of a common enemy can withhold a libertine-nation from falling foul upon it self . if ye would see what work peters , bridges sympson , and ward , made in holland , read bayly's dissuasive , pa. 75. and be asham'd of owning such a party . scrup. you see the fruit then of driving men to the extremity of flying their country for religion . conf. you see rather , in what they did abroad , what they would have done at home , if they had been tolerated ; and particularly , observe their proceedings in new-england , where they acted at liberty , and govern'd themselves , by their own lawes . bayly reports ( from people upon the place ) that of forty thousand persons , three parts of four , were not admitted to be in any church . if you have a mind to know any more concerning their heresies , their cruelty , their sedition , their hypocrisie , &c. look into his dissuasive again , pa. 53. scrup. but ye see the french allow a toleration . conf. they do so ; but not a toleration of several sorts of roman-catholiques ; neither do those of the religion admit of any sub-division among themselves ; nay , they have been often press'd to 't , and refus'd it . step into germany next , and see the deplorable effects of this phanatical persuasion there : but above all , where ever the beauteous discipline has set her holy foot , all other iudgements suffer a daily martyrdome . to conclude , toleration was that which queen elizabeth , in all her distresses , could never be perswaded to . firm to this resolution ( says sir francis bacon ) not to suffer the state of her kingdome to be ruin'd , under pretence of conscience and religion . yet shee conniv'd so long , and the unthankful faction made such use of her favours , that shee was forc't upon the rigour of a strict uniformity , to help her self , and that preserv'd her. to say no more , the sentence of the late king was given in the pulpit , though the blow was struck upon the scaffold . zea. not by the presbyterians , i hope . scrup. truly by them , if by any . conf. well gentlemen , while you debate that point , i 'le call for dinner . sect . xvi . at whose door lyes the bloud of king charles the martyr ? zea. and why by them , if by any , i beseech ye ? was peters a presbyterian ? scrup. yes surely was he , as much as marshall was an independent . zea. go to , let us spare names , and fall to the matter . scrup. the question is , upon whom the guilt of the kings bloud lyes ? you charge it upon us ; and i , upon you. [ the presbyterians spoyl'd him as a king , before others executed him as a private man ] [ have they not hunted and persu'd him with sword , and fire ? have they not formerly deny'd to treat with him , and their now recanting ministers preach't against him , as a reprobate incurable ; an enemy to god , and his church ? marqu'd for destruction ? &c. ] [ the covenanting-ministers , with their party clearly depos'd the king , when they acknowledg'd and submitted unto a power , as superiour unto his ; levy'd war against him , as against a traytor , rebel , and enemy to the kingdome , &c. ] [ the scots had proceeded so far as to imprison the kings person , and to sequester all his royal power , which is a temporary dethroning , and deposing . ] nay hear what some of your rabbies have not stuck to say in my iustification [ the removal of prelatical innovations , altar-genuflexions and cringings , with crossings , and all that popish trash and trumpery , countervails for the bloud and treasure shed and spent in these late distractions ] ( and this was in — 56. ) once more and you shall take your turn . [ this may serve to justifie the proceedings of this kingdome against the late king , who in a hostile way set himself to overthrow religion , parliaments , laws , and liberties . ] zea. i could afford you two , for one , and pay you in your own coyne . [ his capacity ( says parker ) was at westminster when his body was upon the scaffold at whitehall paying unto justice for his misgovernment , and tyranny ] [ think not to save your selves ( sayes one of your ministers to the commons , about a month before the king suffer'd ) think not to save your selves ( says he ) by an unrighteous saving them who are the lord's and the peoples known enemies , for certainly if ye act not like gods in this particular against men truly obnoxious to justice , they will be like devils against you — benhadad's life was once in ahab's hand , and he ventur'd god's displeasure to let him go . but see how bernhadad rewards him for it . fight neither with small nor great , but with the king of israel ] conf. come gentlemen , your dinner 's ready ; but first i charge ye , by that love ye bear to truth , and honesty ; deal freely with me ; what 's your opinion of your cause ? zea. wee 'll take time to consider of it . conf. and of your petition too , i beseech ye . go to ; i dare swear , there 's neither of ye will dye at stake for 't . scrup. but still i 'm where i was , as to the favouring of tender consciences . conf. and truly so am i ; where it is possible to separate the errour , from the person : but to permit a pullique inconvenience for the satisfaction of a private scruple , were ( upon very weak pretence ) to unhinge the law , and consequently to dissolve the government . det ille veniam facilè , cui veniâ est opus . sen. agamem . the end . the contents . introduction , pag. 1 sect . 1. liberty of conscience stated , p. 5 sect . 2. universal toleration unlawful , p. 7 sect . 3. limited toleration , does not answer liberty of conscience , p. 18 sect . 4. the non-conformists plea for toleration , upon reason of state , p. 14 sect . 5. the non-conformists plea for toleration , from the merits of the party , p. 24 sect . 6. the non-conformists plea for toleration , from the innocence of their practices and opinions , p. 26 sect . 7. toleration causes confusion both in church and state , p. 36 sect . 8. the danger of toleration in this iuncture , pag. 3● sect . 9. arguments against toleration in respect of the party ihat desires it ; with animadversions upon a certain pamplet , entituled , a sermon preached at aldermanbury-church , decemb. 28. 1662. p. 42 sect . 10. arguments against toleration , in respect of the authority that is to grant it , p. 60 sect . 11. the proper subject and extent of humane power , p. 64 sect . 12. the bounds of toleration , with some reflections upon schism and scandal , p. 69 sect . 13. the necessity of a final and unaccomptable judge , p. 81 sect . 14. the three great iudges of mankind , are god , magistrates and conscience , p. 89 sect . 15. the toleration , which the non-conformists desire , has neither ground , nor president , p. 99 sect . 16. at whose door lies the bloud of king charles the martyr ? p. 104 the end . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a47927-e200 crooks reports pars 2. pa. 37. notes for div a47927-e1090 interest of engl. pa 86. p. 84. 86. 87. 94. the non-conformists demand . rom. 2. 14. laud against fisher. pa. 197. rom. 7. 7. rom. 4. 15. rom. 5. 13. 1 joh. 4. 3 , 15. ex. coll. p. 2. & 3. a ex. coll. p. 84. b p. 339. c p. 609. d p. 764. e p. 392. ex. coll. p. 533. p. 494. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 28. & 24. lord brook , alaham , pa. 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 130. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 93. gal. 5. 1. a lex rex p. 136. b 156. c 140. d 113. e gillespy p. 11. engl. pop. cerem . f 245. kings declar. p. 409. p. 4●1 . p. 409. p. 413. a sacred panegyrick . p. 23 defence of the honourable sentence passed upon the late king. pa. 90. ex coll. pa. 259 ▪ ex. coll. pa. 457. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pa. 183. the non-conformists would have they know not what . letter to the assembl . ian. 1. 45. pag. 3. engl. deliv . pa. 7. fresh disput. pa. 98. tenure of kings pa. 36. ex. coll. pa. 2. remonstr . ex. coll. pa. 19. ☜ ibid. the false brother . a part. 2. pag. 3. b pag. 7. scobel acts , &c. c pag. 51. d pag. 65. e pag. 178. f pag. 293. a scobels acts , &c. pag. 41. b pag. 60. c pag. 73. d pag. 75. e pag. 128. f pag. 8. part 2. g pag. 149. h pag. 153. i pag. 400. k pag. 42. l pag. 53. m pag. 75. n pag. 99. o pag. 101. p pag. 128. q part. 2. pag. 16. r part. 1. pag. 97. ibid. the kirks testimony against toleration . pag. 10. scobell's acts pars. 2. pa. 340. useful case of conscience , pa. 19 , & 20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 207. ibid. a scob. acts pars. 1. pa. 37. b pa. 135. c pars. 2. pa. 104. d pa. 175. e pa. 372. kings declar. decemb. 26. 1662. pa. 8. his majesty's speech to both houses , feb. 18. 1662. pa. 5. ibid. pa. 7. pa. 8. ibid. pa. 8. pa. 9. pa. 8. pa. 9. pa. 10. pa. 11. ibid. pa. 12. pa. 13. ibid. pa. 14. ibid. sermon , iu● . 15. — 43. pag. 53 , & 51. pa. 16. pa. 17. pa. 17 , & 18. ☞ davila delle guer. civ . di f●an . lib. 10. ibid. lib. 14. strada de bello belgico lib. 5. the subject of humane power . eccles. polit ▪ lib. 1. pa. 7. a parker , goodwin , rutherford , milton , &c. b e. cal. noble-mans pattern , pa. 45. c e. c. phoenix , pa. 158 , & 159. d rutherfords due right of presbyteryee , pa. 485. e ibid. p. 488. f mr. manion's smectymnuus , publisht since his majesties return , pa. 58. ☜ essay of atheism . e. calaus . serm. dec. 28. 1662. pa. 21. pa. 19. psal. 73. v. 12. essay of unity of religion . numb . 24. 16. numb . 16. 1. v. 3. v. 32. v. 35. v. 41. v. 49. a rom. 2. 22. b by the familists . c by the antinomians . d rutherford , lex . rex p. ●1 . a goodwins right and might , pa. 10. b lex rex pa. 265. c lex . rex pa. 324. d pa. 269. e pa. 334. f pa. 324. g pa. 273. h ibid. i ibid. k lex . rex pa. 152. l ibid. a right and might . b tenūre of kings , pa. 24. c defence of the kings sentence , p. 34. d english translation of the scottish declaration , pa. 18. e pa. 22. printed for francis tyton , who has published as much since the king came in . chillingsworths safe way , pa. 57. rom. 7. 23. chilling● . safe way , p. 104. a rutherfords due right of presbyt . p. 356. b ibid. p. 352. c ibid p 407. d ibid. p. 415. [ d ] ruth . free disp. pag. 36. ruth . free disp. pa. 27. resuscitatio pa. 189. common-wealth stated , p. 72. milton's tenur . p. 32. goodwin's defence of the king's sentence , p. 53. parker's scotlands holy war , p. 17. policy of princes , p. 33. robert douglass sermon in 51 and in the phoenix , p. 52. english translat . p. 18. flesh expiring , &c. p. 26. a third letter concerning toleration in defense of the argument of the letter concerning toleration, briefly consider'd and answer'd. proast, jonas. 1691 approx. 228 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 42 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2003-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a55926 wing p3539 estc r26905 09574619 ocm 09574619 43698 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a55926) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 43698) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1338:10) a third letter concerning toleration in defense of the argument of the letter concerning toleration, briefly consider'd and answer'd. proast, jonas. 79 p. printed by l. lichfield for george west and henry clements, oxford : 1691. attributed to jonas proast--nuc pre-1956 imprints. reproduction of original in the union theological seminary library, new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng proast, jonas. -argument of the letter concerning toleration. locke, john, 1632-1704. -epistola de tolerantia. -english. toleration. 2003-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-05 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-06 rina kor sampled and proofread 2003-06 rina kor text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-08 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a third letter concerning toleration . a third letter concerning toleration : in defense of the argument of the letter concerning toleration , briefly consider'd and answer'd . imprimatur . jonath . edwards , vice-can . univ. oxon. apr. 20. 1691. oxford , printed by l. lichfield , for george west , and henry clements , 1691. advertisement . in the marginal references l.p. denotes the page of the letter concerning toleration ; a.p. the page of the argument of the letter concerning toleration , briefly consider'd and answer'd ; and p. the page of the second letter concerning toleration . to the author of the second letter concerning toleration . sir , you would have needed no pardon for taking the same liberty , with me , that i took with the author of the letter concerning toleration . but i fear it will be found , that instead of considering my arguments , and endeavouring to shew me the mistakes of them , you have taken another sort of liberty which does need pardon . you are pleas'd to tell me here in the beginning , that i have plainly yielded up the question to that author , by owning that the severities he would disswade christians from , are utterly unapt and improper to bring men to embrace that truth which must save them : as if those severities which i condemn , viz. prosecuting men with fire and sword , depriving them of their estates , maiming them with corporal punishments , starving and tormenting them in noisome prisons , taking away their lives to make them christians , &c. were all that our author would disswade christians from : whereas you your self own , that the purpose of his letter is plainly to depend toleration exempt from all force , from all sorts and degrees of penalties whatsoever , even the lowest and most moderate that can be assigned . but it is well if this prove to be the greatest instance of the liberty you have taken with me . whether you , or i have more carefully and impartially weigh'd the whole matter in controversy between us : whether i do yet favour some remains of persecution , or not : and , whether what appears to you so very clear and evident , be the truth , or not : of these things , sir , we must leave others to judge . but whether it would be reasonable and just for you , or me , were either of us in authority , to use any force upon the other , upon any pretence of want of examination of our present controversy , is no part of the question . for no man , i suppose , will pretend that every private person is bound to examine this controversy . and therefore how unreasonable and unjust soever it might be , for either of us to use force upon the other , to make him examine this controversy , it may still be true nevertheless , that authority may reasonably and justly use some degrees of force , where it is needful , to bring men to consider and examine those , controversies which they are bound to consider and examine ; i. e. those , wherein they cannot err , without dishonouring god , and endangering their own and other men's eternal salvation . the first thing , you say , that i seem startled at in the author's letter , is the largeness of the toleration he proposes . for he claims it , as i observ'd , not onely for christians , in their different professions of religion , but likewise for iews , mahumetans , and pagans ; who , he saith , ought not to be excluded from the civil rights of the commonwealth , because of their religion . now to let me see that i ought not to think this strange , you put me in mind that we pray every day for their conversion ; and you say you think it our duty so to do . and so far i agree with you . but you say further , that you fear it will hardly be believed that we pray in earnest , if we exclude them from the other ordinary and probable means of conversion ▪ either by d●iving them from , or persecuting them when they are amongst us . so that excluding them from the civil rights of the commonwealth , is , in your opinion , driving them from , or persecuting them when they are amongst us . now i confess i thought men might live quietly enough among us , and enjoy the protection of the government against all violence and injuries , without being endenizon'd , or made members of the commonwealth ; which alone can entitle them to the civil rights and privileges of it . but as to iews , mahumetans , and pagans , if any of them do not care to live among us , unless they may be admitted to the rights and privileges of the commonwealth ; the refusing them that favour , is not , i suppose , to be look'd upon as driving them from us , or excluding them from the ordinary and probable means of conversion ; but as a just and necessary caution in a christian commonwealth , in respect to the members of it : who , if such as prosess iudaism , or mahumetanism , or paganism , were permitted to enjoy the same rights with them , would be much the more in danger to be seduced by them ; seeing they would lose no worldly advantage by such a change of their religion : whereas if they could not turn to any of those religions , without forfeiting the civil rights of the commonwealth by doing it ; 't is likely they would consider well , before they did it , what ground there was to expect that they should get any thing by the exchange , which would countervail the loss they should sustain by it . and whether this be not a reasonable and necessary caution , any man may judge , who does but consider , within how few ages after the floud superstition and idolatry prevail'd over the world ; and how apt even god's own peculiar people were to receive that mortal infection , notwithstanding all that he did to keep them from it . if therefore a just care of the flock of christ , requires us to exclude iews , mahumetans , and pagans ▪ from the civil rights of the commonwealth , because of their religion ; 't is plain , we may pray in earnest for their conversion , though we so exclude them : because though we are bound to desire their conversion , and so to pray for it ; yet we are bound to seek it , no further than we can do it , without endangering the subjects of christ's kingdom , to whom he has a special regard . but as to pagans particularly , i confess i am so far from thinking with our author , that they ought not to be excluded from the civil rights of the commonwealth , because of their religion , that i cannot see how their religion can be suffer'd by any common-wealth that knows and worships the onely true god , if it would be thought to retain any jealousy for his honour , or even for that of humane nature . for how early or generally soever their idolatries obtain'd in the world , through that blindness which vice brings upon the minds of men ; and how deep rooting soever they have taken in it : yet as they are the greatest dishonour conceivable to god almighty , and to humane nature it self ; so they are utterly incapable of any manner of excuse or extenuation ; being contrary to the natural sense and apprehensions of mankind , as god himself , in the prophet , plainly intimates . for which reason at least , i think i might well be startled at the largeness of our author's toleration . for whereas you say , you do not see why pagans should not be tolerated as well as others , if we wish their conversion ; whatever may be said for the tolerating of others , i think it is plain enough as to them , that we ought not to purchase the opportunity of conventing them , by suffering them to commit those indignities and abominations among us , which they call religion , till they are converted . but as to the converting iews , mahumetans , and pagans to christianity , i fear there will be no great progress made in it , till christians come to a better agreement and union among themselves . i am sure our saviour pray'd that all that should believe in him , might be one in the father and in him ( i. e. i suppose , in that holy religion which he taught them from the father ) that the world might believe that the father had sent him . and therefore when he comes to make inquisition , why no more iews , mahumetans , and pagans have been converted to his religion , i very much fear that a great part of the blame will be found to lie upon the authors and promoters of sects and divisions among the professors of it : which therefore i think all that are guilty , and all that would not be guilty , ought well to consider . in what sense i allow , that force is improper to convert men to any religion , has already been sufficiently declared in my answer ; and i shall have occasion to speak more of it afterwards . where i say that some seem to place the advancement of trade and commerce above all other considerations , you tell me that if i do not know that the author places the advancement of trade above religion , my insinuation is very uncharitable . but i thought i had sufficiently prevented such an interpretation of my words , by acqui●ting the author but just before , of any ill design towards religion . that there are some men in the world , who are justly suspected of the crime i mention , i believe you will not deny . and i assure you i did not intend , by those words , to bring any man under the suspicion of it , who has not given just cause for it . i say ( speaking of the toleration which our author proposes ) i see no reason , from any experiment which has been made , to expect that true , religion would be any way a gainer by it . and you tell me i have an experiment of this in the christian religion , in its first appearance in the world , and several hundred of years after . but how does that appear ? why , you say the christian religion was then better preserv'd , more widely propagated ( in proportion ) and render'd more fruitful in the lives of its professors , than ever since ; though then iews and pagans were tolerated , and more than tolerated , by the governments of those places where it grew up . and is this your experiment of the true religion's being a gainer by toleration ? the christian religion prosper'd more , you say , in those times than ever since , though then iews and pagans were tolerated , &c. and therefore it was a gainer by the toleration of iews and pagans . is there any manner of consequence in this ? that the christian religion prosper'd more in those times , than ever since , though then iews and pagans were tolerated , i readily grant you . but whoever does but understand what though means , must needs see that this is so far from proving what you inferr from it , that it strongly proves the contrary , viz. that the toleration of jews and pagans was rather an hindrance than an advantage to the christian religion . but let us see the utmost you can make of this experiment of yours . you say you hope i do not imagine the christian religion has lost any of its first beauty , force , or reasonableness , by having been almost 2000 years in the world ; that i should fear it should be less able now to shift for it self , without the help of force . and you doubt not but i look upon it still to be the power and wisdom of god for our salvation ; and therefore cannot suspect it less capable to prevail now , by its own truth and light , than it was in the first ages of the church , when poor contemptible men , without authority , or the countenance of authority , had alone the care of it . in which words i understand you to say these three things ; 1. that the christian religion prevail'd at first meerly by its own beauty , force , or reasonableness , without the help of authority , or force . 2. that that religion has still the same beauty , force , or reasonableness which it had at first . 3. lastly , that therefore it is now as well able to shift for it self , and to prevail , without any assistance of authority , as it was then . now to clear this matter , i must observe , that in the beauty , force , or reasonableness , by which you say the christian religion prevail'd at first , without the assistance of authority , either you include the miracles done by the poor contemptible men you speak of , to make their religion prevail , or you do not . if you do not ; then the meaning of your first assertion is , that the christian religion prevail'd at first without the assistance of authority , meerly by the beauty , force , or reasonableness which it had , separate from those miracles : which i believe you will not undertake to defend . but if you do include the miracles ; then your second assertion is manifestly false : for i am sure you cannot say that the christian religion is still accompanied with miracles , as it was at its first planting : and so the conclusion you draw from thence , that therefore the christian religion is now as well able to shift for it self , and to prevail , without any assistance of authority , as it was at first , falls to the ground . you add , this , as i take it , has been made use of by christians generally , and by some of our church in particular , as an argument for the truth of the christian religion , that it grew and spread , and prevail'd , without any aid from force , or the assistance of the powers in being . wherein i hope you are mistaken : for i am sure this is a very bad argument . that the christian religion , so contrary in the nature of it as well to flesh and bloud , as to the powers of darkness , should prevail as it did ; and that not onely without any assistance from authority , but even in spight of all the opposition which authority and a wicked world , join'd with those infernal powers , could make against it ; this , i acknowledge , has deservedly been insisted upon by christians , as a very good proof of the truth of their religion . but to argue the truth of the christian religion , from its meer prevailing in the world , without any aid from force , or the assistance of the powers in being ; as if whatever religion should so prevail , must needs be the true religion ; ( whatever may be intended ) is really , not to defend the christian religion , but to betray it . for neither does the true religion always prevail , without the assistance of the powers in being ; nor is that always the true religion , which does so spread and prevail : as i doubt not but you will acknowledge with me , when you have but consider'd , within how few generations after the floud , the worship of false gods prevail'd against the religion which noah profess'd , and taught his children ( which was undoubtedly the true religion ) almost to the utter exclusion of it ( though that at first was the onely religion in the world ) without any aid from force , or the assistance of the powers in being , for any thing we find in the history of those times , and as we may reasonably believe , considering that it found an entrance into the world , and entertainment in it , when it could have no such aid , or assistance . of which ( besides the corruption of humane nature ) i suppose there can no other cause be assigned , or none more probable than this , that the powers then in being , did not do what they might and ought to have done , towards the preventing , or checking that horrible apostasy . you go on : and if it be a mark of the true religion , that it will prevail by its own light and strength ; ( but that false religions will not , but have need of force and foreign helps to support them ) nothing certainly can be more for the advantage of true religion , than to take away compulsion every where . but if this be not a mark of the true religion ( as you have not proved it to be ; ) then what you conclude here , may not be true . that the true religion has always light and strength of its own , sufficient to prevail with all that consider it seriously , and without prejudice , i readily grant . but if , when you make it a mark of the true religion , that it will prevail by its own light and strength , you mean ( as it is plain you must ) that it will always prevail in the world against other religions , meerly by its own light and strength , without the assistance either of miracles , or of authority ; then i must tell you , that prevailing by its own light and strength , is so far from being a mark of the true religion , that it is not true , that the true religion will so prevail by its own light and strength . the instance but now given , is too great a proof of this . for if you admit that noah's religion was the true religion , you must admit like wise that it had light and strength enough to prevail with all that should but fairly consider it . and yet , however , we find that it was so far from prevailing against false religions , without foreign help , that though at first it had quiet possession of the world , without any false religion to contest its title ; yet it did not long maintain its advantage , but notwithstanding all its light and strength , was within a few generations , almost extinguish'd and lost out of the world : idolatry prevailing against it , not by its own light and strength , you may be sure , ( for it could have nothing of either ; ) nor yet by the help of force , as has already been shew'd ; but meerly by the advantage which it had in the corruption and pravity of humane nature , left ( as it is most reasonable to suppose ) to it self , unbridled by authority . for to the corrupt nature of man , false religions are ever more agreeable than the true . for whatever hardships some false religions may impose ; it will however always be easier to carnal and wordly-minded men , to give even their first-born for their transgressions , than to mortify the lusts from which they spring : which no religion but the true , requires of them . and upon this account , though there is nothing more certain than that false religions will never prevail by their own light and strength ; yet it seems contrary to reason ( as well as to experience ) to say that they always have need of force and foreign helps to support them . on the contrary , i see no reason to doubt , but the meer agreeableness of false religions to flesh and bloud , may very well support them , without foreign helps ; whilest the true religion may stand in need of them , not for any defects of its own , but by reason of the folly , perversness , and wickedness of men. if therefore it be no mark of the true religion , that it will prevail by its own light and strength , but that false religions will not , but have need of force and foreign helps to support them ( as you have not proved it is , and i think i have proved it is far from being so ; ) then it does not yet appear , that nothing can be more for the advantage of the true religion , than to take away compulsion every where . you say , a religion that is of god wants not the assistance of humane authority to make it prevail . which is not simply , or always true . indeed when god takes the matter wholly into his own hands ; as he does at his first revealing and planting a religion ; there can then be no need of the assistance of humane authority : because then , to make such a religion appear to be his , god himself does all that is requisite to make it prevail . but when once god has sufficiently settled his religion in the world , so that if men will but thenceforth do what they may and ought , in their several capacities , to preserve and propagate it , it may subsist and prevail without that extraordinary assistance from him which was necessary for its first establishment : then he leaves it to their care , under his ordinary providence , to try whether they will do their duties , or not : leaving them answerable for all that may follow from their neglect . and then , if that religion will not prevail without the assistance of humane authority , ●t cannot be said not to need that assistance to make it prevail . i guess , say you , when this dropp'd from you , you had narrow'd your thoughts to your own age and country : but if you will enlarge them a little beyond the confines of england , i do not doubt but you will easily imagine that if in italy , spain , portugal , &c. the inquisition ; and in france their dragoo●ing ; and in other parts those severities that are used to keep or force men to the national religion , were taken away ; and instead thereof the toleration proposed by the author were set up , the true religion would be a gainer by it . how easily soever i can imagine that , in this case , the true religion would , for some time , be a gainer by our author's toleration ; because then it would be tolerated in italy , spain , portugal , france , &c. where now it is not : yet i think it is manifest enough that it does not follow from thence , that in england , or wherever else the true religion is nationally received , it would reap any advantage by having its present establishment taken away , and our author's , i. e. an universal toleration of religions set up instead of it . but i suppose your meaning is , that if all the world would agree to such a toleration ; though then the true religion would lose by it in those few places where it is now establish'd as the national religion ; yet upon the whole matter , it would be a gainer by the bargain ; because then it would stand upon even terms with all other religions , in so many more places , where now it is either not at all suffer'd , or at least under great disadvantages . if this be the thing you aim at : then , 1. i suppose you do not hope you shall perswade the whole world to consent in your toleration , or that you shall prevail with pagans , mahumetans , and papists every where to allow true and sound religion the same terms with their own , ( supposing you could prevail with those of that religion , to do this to them . ) and if that religion alone should tolerate all other religions , whilest it self is tolerated by none ; i think it is not easy to conceive how it would be a gainer by so doing . but , 2. supposing your toleration were set up all the world over : even in that case , it is so far from being probable that the true religion would be any way advantaged by it , that on the contrary i think there is great reason to fear , that , without god's extraordinary providence , it would in a much shorter time than any one that does not well consider the matter would imagine , be most effectually extirpated by it throughout the world : considering ( what has already been observ'd ) that even when the true religion was the onely religion in the world , it did not long continue so , but the depraved nature of man soon found out other religions , more agreeable to it self , which quickly prevail'd , and overspread the world. as to the inquisition , dragooning , or any other such severities , which are any where used , to keep or force men to the national religion , i suppose i need not put you in mind that i condemn them as much as you do . you tell me the author of the letter says , truth will do well enough , if she were once left to shift for her self . ( the contrary whereof has been sufficiently shewn . ) she seldom has receiv'd , and he fears never will receive much assistance from the power of great men , to whom she is but rarely known , and more rarely welcome . ( and yet god himself foretold and promised that kings should be nursing fathers , and queens nursing mothers to his church : as i doubt they cannot be , if truth does not receive assistance from their power . ) errors indeed prevail by the assistance of foreign and borrow'd succours . ( and without it too . ) truth makes way into our understanding by her own light , and is but the weaker for any borrow'd force that violence can add to her . ( yet moderate penalties may make way for truth to men's understanding , that so she may make way into it by her own light. ) and then you add , these words of his ( how hard soever they may seem to you ) may help you to conceive how he should think to do service to true religion , by recommending and perswading such a toleration as he proposed . and now , you go on , pray tell me your self , whether you do not think true religion would be a gainer by it , if such a toleration establish'd there , would permit the doctrine of the church of england to be freely preach'd , and its worship set up in any popish , mahumetan , or pagan country ? sir , i have told you already , that i think it would , for a time ; though i think withall , that an universal toleration would ruine it both there and every where else in the end . and i have told you why i think so . you add , if you do not , you have a very ill opinion of the religion of the church of england , and must own that it can onely be propagated and supported by force . but why may not i have as good an opinion of the religion of the church of england , as i have of noah's religion , notwithstanding that i think it cannot now be propagated and supported , without using some kinds or degrees of force ? if , say you , you think it would gain in those countries , by such a toleration , you are then of the author's mind . not so , sir : for as i fear it would lose all at last by such a toleration ; so i doubt not but at present it would lose vastly more by it , where it is now nationally received , than it would gain , where false or unsound religions are so received . but , say you , if you allow such a toleration useful to truth in other countries , you must find something very peculiar in the air , that must make it less useful to truth in england . and 't will savour of much partiality , and be too absurd , i fear , for you to own , that toleration will be advantageous to true religion all the world over , except onely in this island ; though i much suspect , this , as absurd as it is , lies at the bottom ; and you build all you say upon this lurking supposition , that the national religion now in england , back'd by the publick authority of the law , is the onely true religion , and therefore no other is to be tolerated . how useful to truth , or advantangeous to true religion i think toleration would be in other countries , or all the world over , i suppose i have by this time sufficiently declared . but why you should suspect that i look upon this island as the onely part of the world that would receive no advantage by it , i cannot imagine . if you will take my word for it , i assure you i think there are many other countries in the world , where ( whatever their air be ) your toleration would be as little useful to truth , as in england . for notwithstanding the lurking supposition you speak of , i am far enough from thinking that the true religion is confined to this kingdom , or this island . but as to my supposing that the national religion now in england , back'd by the publick authority of the law , is the onely true religion ; if you own , with our author , that there is but one true religion , i cannot see how you your self can avoid supposing the same . for you own your self of the church of england ; and consequently you own the national religion now in england , to be the true religion ; for that is her religion . and therefore if you believe there is but one true religion ; there is no help for it , but you must suppose , with me , that the national religion now in england , back'd with the publick authority of the law , is the onely true religion . but this is not all the lurking supposition you speak of . for you suspect me likewise to suppose , that no other religion is to be tolerated . by which if you mean , that as this onely true religion ought to be received wherever it is preach'd ; so , where-ever it is receiv'd , i suppose all other religions ought to be discouraged in some measure , by the civil powers ; i own that i do suppose it : and i think i have shewn good reason why . but you go on , and ( speaking of this lurking supposition , that the national religion now in england , is the onely true religion , and therefore no other is to be tolerated ) you say , which being a supposition equally unavoidable , and equally just in other countries ( unless we can imagine that every where but in england men believe what at the same time they think to be a lie ) will in other places exclude toleration , and thereby hinder truth from the means of propagating it self . how , sir ? is this supposition equally unavoidable ; and equally just in other countries , where false religions are the national religion ? ( for that you must mean , or nothing to the purpose . ) if so , then i fear it will be equally true too , and equally rational . for otherwise i see not how it can be either equally unavoidable , or equally just : for if it be not equally true , i● cannot be equally just ; and if it be not equally rational , it cannot be equally unavoidable . but if it be equally true , and equally rational ; then either all religions are true , or none is true : for if they be all equally true , and any one of them be not true ; then none of them can be true . and then the least that will follow is , that we must unsuppose again , what we supposed but now , viz. that the religion now establish'd in england is the onely true religion . for whether we admit that all religions are true , or that none is true ; we must unavoidably admit that there is no onely true religion : and if there be no onely true religion ; then neither the religion now establish'd in england , nor any other can be the onely true religion . there is therefore no remedy , but you must either recall this assection of yours , or own these consequences which flow from it . but i hope , when you have thought a little more of the matter , you will be so far from asserting that the supposition , that the national religion is the onely true religion , is in all countries equally unavoidable , and equally just , that you will acknowledge that it cannot be at all unavoidable , or just , where any false religion is the national religion . otherwise , you will be forced to own that men may be bound to embrace false religions . for whatever religion any man does unavoidably , and justly suppose , or judge , to be the onely true religion , that religion he must needs be bound to embrace : because he has all the reason to embrace it , which any man can have for embracing any religion whatsoever ; and he can no more reasonably reject it , than any other man may reject the onely true religion . now if this supposition , that the national is the onely true religion , be indeed neither equally unavoidable , nor equally just in other countries , as it is where the true is the national religion ; then neither will the supposition , that therefore no other religion is to be tolerated , be either equally unavoidable , or equally just in other countries , as it is where the true is the national religion . and therefore if this supposition shall any where exclude the toleration of the truth , and thereby hinder it from the means of propagating it self ; the blame will lie upon those who admit that supposition , where there is no just ground for it : who therefore must answer for the consequences of it . the toleration the fruits whereof i say give no encouragement to hope for any advantage from our author's toleration , to true religion , is that ( as i thought you would easily have guess'd ) which almost all , but those of the church of england , enjoyed in the times of the blessed reformation , as it was call'd . and for the fruits of it , viz. the sects and heresies which it produced ( some of which i say still remain with us ) how numerous , and of what quality they were , some yet living remember , and the writers of those times do sufficiently discover . but here , whatever the fruits of that toleration were , you boldly say , that if the magistrates will severely and impartially set themselves against vice , in whomsoever it is found ; and leave men to their own consciences , in their articles of faith , and ways of worship ; true religion will be spread wider , and be more fruitful in the lives of its professors , than ever hitherto it has been , by the imposition of creeds and ceremonies . it seems then , with you , the rejecting the true faith , and the refusing to worship god in decent ways , prescribed by those to whom god has left the ordering of such matters , are not comprehended in the name of vice. otherwise you must allow the magistrates to set themselves against these things likewise , if they must severely and impartially set themselves against vice : which would not consist with leaving men to their own consciences in them . but if you except these things , and will not allow them to be call'd by the name of vice ; perhaps other men may think it as reasonable to except some other things , which they have a kindness for . for instance : some perhaps may except arbitrary divorcing , others polygamy , others concubinacy , others simple fornication , other marrying within degrees which have hitherto been thought forbidden . and all these , it may be , will boldly say too , that if the magistrates will severely and impartially set themselves against vice , and leave men to their own consciences in these things ; vertue and good manners would be spread wider , and shine more gloriously in the lives of men , than ever hitherto it has done , by the help of any laws that have been made about these matters . but , sir , whether the magistrates setting themselves severely and impartially against what i suppose you call vice ; or the imposition of found creeds and decent ceremonies , does more conduce to the spreading true religion , and rendering it fruitful in the lives of its professours , we need not examine . i confess i think both together do best . and this i think is as much as needs to be said to your next paragraph also . as to what our author offers in behalf of the toleration he contends for , i thought the whole strength of it comprized in this argument : there is but one way of salvation , or but one true religion . no man can be saved by this religion , who does not believe it to be the true religion . this belief is to be wrought in men by reason and argument , not by outward force and compulsion . therefore all such force is utterly of no use for the promoting true religion , and the salvation of souls . and therefore no body can have any right to use any force or compulsion , for the bringing men to the true religion : neither any private person ; nor any ecclesiastical officer ( bishop , priest , or other ; ) nor any church , or religious society ; nor the civil magistrate . but to this you say , if it be a true consequence , that men must be tolerated , if magistrates have no commission or authority to punish them for matters of religion ; then the onely strength of that letter lies not in the unfitness of force to convince men's understanding . vid. lett. p. 7. but if all the reason for which the author denies that magistrates have any commission or authority to punish for matters of religion , ends in the unfitness of force to convince men's understanding ( as , upon examination , it will appear it does ; ) then the onely strength of that letter may lie in that , not withstanding that true consequence . 't is true indeed , the author does say , in the page you quote , that it does not appear that god has given any such authority to one man over another , as to compell any one to his religion : wherein , i believe , no sober man will contradict him . but ( supposing that by compelling any one to his religion , he means using any degree of force , in any manne● whatsoever , to bring any one to his religion ; ) what reason , i beseech you , does he any where offer for his saying this , but that which he gives us in the next page ; where he expresly affirms that the magistrate's power extends not to the establishing any articles of faith , or forms of worship , by the force of his la●es , for this reason , viz. because laws are of no force at all without penalties , and penalties in this case are absolutely impertinent , because they are not proper to convince the mind , because they are no way capable to produce the belief of the truth of any articles of faith , or of the acceptableness to god of any outward forms of worship ; and because that light and evidence which onely can work a change in men's opinions , can in no manner proceed from them : which i suppose you will acknowledge to be onely so many several expressions of the unfitness of force to convince men's understanding . again , say you ; if it be true that magistrates being as liable to error as the rest of mankind , their using of force in matters of religion , would not at all advance the salvation of mankind , ( allowing that even force could work upon them , and magistrates had authority to use it in religion ) then the argument you mention , is not the onely one in that letter , of strength to prove the necessity of toleration . vid. let. p. 8. but you might have consider'd , that this argument , from the magistrate's being as liable to error as the rest of mankind , concerns none but those , who assert that every magistrate has a right to use force to promote his own religion , whatever it be : which i think no man that has any religion will assert : and that for this reason , i could not be obliged to consider it as a distinct argument . however , where it came in my way , i took as much notice of it as i thought it deserved . as to the argument as i have represented it , you deny that the fourth proposition is any proposition of the author's , to be found in the pages i quote , or any where else in the whole letter , either in those terms , or in the sense i take it in . and yet you immediately add , that in the eighth page , which i quote , the author is shewing that the magistrate has no right to make use of force in matters of religion , for the salvation of men's souls ; and that the reason he there gives for it is , because force hath no efficacy to convince men's minds ; and that without a full perswasion of the mind , the profession of the true religion it self is not acceptable to god. and then you set down the words of the author to which i referr , viz. upon this ground i affirm that the magistrate's power extends not to the establishing any articles of faith , or forms of worship , by the force of his laws . for laws are of no force without penalties ; and penalties in this case are absolutely impertinent , because they are not proper to convince the mind . now in what respect , i beseech you , are penalties here affirm'd to be absolutely impertinent ? is it not plain that the author means they are so , as used to bring men to believe any articles of faith , or to approve any forms of worship ? and is not this exactly the sense of the fourth proposition ? the other place of the letter , p. 27. to which i referr , and which you here set down , does clearly enough contain the same sense ; and therefore i need not add any more words concerning it . you add , but in neither of those passages , nor any where else that i remember , does the author say that it is impossible that force should any way , at any time , upon any person , by any accident , be useful towards the promoting of true religion , and the salvation of souls ; for that is it which you mean by utterly of no use . by utterly of no use , i mean the same thing which the author does by absolutely impertinent . and whether he does , or does not say that it is impossible , &c. i am sure the least he can mean by saying that penalties are absolutely impertinent , is , that they are so little serviceable towards the purpose we speak of , that , generally speaking , they do at least as much harm as good : for nothing less than that can make them absolutely impertinent : and that is all that i mean by utterly useless . you say further ; he does not deny that there is any thing which god in his goodness does not , or may not sometimes gratiously make use of towards the salvation of men's souls ( as our saviour did of clay and spittle to cure blindness : ) and that so , force also may be sometimes useful . but that which he denies , and you grant , is that force has any proper efficacy to enlighten the understanding , or produce belief . and from thence he inferrs , that therefore the magistrate cannot lawfully compell men in matters of religion . 't is true indeed , i do grant that force has no proper efficacy to enlighten or convince the understanding , or to do the work of reason and arguments . but must it needs be utterly useless , or no otherwise useful for the promoting true religion , than clay and spittle are for curing blindness , unless it have the efficacy of reason and arguments ? i confess i thought the usefulness of force for the promoting the true religion , would sufficiently appear , if it could but be shewn to be capable of doing any considerable service that way , by procuring the conviction of the understanding , though it be not it self capable to convince . for certainly it is one thing to convince the understanding , and another to procure i●s conviction . the one indeed is peculiarly the work of reason and arguments : but the other is done by whatever prevails with a man to consider and weigh those reasons and arguments which do convince his understanding ; whether it be his own inclination , or the advice of a friend , or the command or law of a superior . now though i grant that force has no proper efficacy to enlighten the understanding , or produce belief : yet i assert withall , that it has a proper efficacy ( i.e. not a bare obediential e●ficacy , such as clay and spittle have in the hand of omnipotence ; but a natural efficacy , as a moral cause ) to procure the enlightening of the understanding , and the production of belief . and if it be in this sort useful for the promoting true religion , and the salvation of souls , ( as i see no reason hitherto to doubt but it is ; ) then it may still be lawful for the magistrate to make use of it in matters of religion , though it has no proper efficacy to enlighten the understanding , or produce belief . where i say that force may indirectly and at a distance do some service &c. you say you do not understand what i mean by doing service at a distance towards the bringing men to salvation , or to embrace truth ; unless perhaps it be what others , in propriety of speech , call by accident . but i make little doubt but all other men that read the place , do well enough understand what i mean by those words ; even such as do not understand what it is to do service by accident . and if by doing service by accident , you mean doing it but seldom , and beside the intention of the agent ; i assure you that is not the thing that i mean , when i say force may indirectly and at a distance do some service . for in that use of force which i defend , the effect is both intended by him that uses it , and withall , i doubt not , so often attain'd , as abundantly to manifest the usefulness of it . but be it what it will , say you , it is such a service as cannot be asscribed to the direct and proper efficacy of force . and so , say you , force indirectly and at a distance , may do some service . i grant it : make your best of it . what do you conclude from thence ? that therefore the magistrate may make use of it ? that i deny . that such an indirect and at a distance usefulness will authorize the civil power in the use of it , that will never be proved . it seems then you grant at last , that force may , indirectly , and at a distance , do some service , in the matter we are speaking of . but where , i beseech you , do i affirm , that therefore the magistrate may make use of it ? methinks you might remember , that i assert force to be generally necessary , as well as useful , to bring erring persons to the way of truth : and that accordingly i ground the magistrate's authority to use force for that purpose , upon the necessity , as well as usefulness of it . now whether such an indirect and at a distance usefulness ( as you are pleas'd to call it ) together with a general necessity of force , will not authorize the civil power in the use of it , you will perhaps be better able to judge , when you have answer'd a plain question or two . that force does some service toward the making of scholars and artists , i suppose you will easily grant . give me leave therefore to ask , how it does it ? i suppose you will say , not by its direct and proper efficacy , ( for force is no more capable to work learning , or arts , than the belief of the true religion , in men , by its direct and proper efficacy ; ) but by prevailing upon those who are designed for scholars , or artists , to receive instruction , and to apply themselves to the use of those means and helps , which are proper to make them what they are designed to be : that is , it does it indirectly , and at a distance . well then ; if all the usefulness of force towards the bringing scholars , or apprentices , to the learning , or skill they are designed to attain , be onely an indirect and at a distance usefulness : i pray , what is it that warrants and authorizes schoolmasters , tutours , or masters , to use force upon their scholars , or apprentices , to bring them to learning , or to the skill of their arts and trades , if such an indirect and at a distance usefulness of force , together with that necessity of it which experience discovers , will not do it ? i believe you will acknowledge , that even such an usefulness , together with that necessity , will serve the turn in these cases . but then i would fain know , why the same kind of usefulne●s , join'd with the like necessity , will not as well do it in the case before us . i confess i see no reason why it should not : nor do i believe you can assign any . that the magistrate may make use of whatsoever god has at any time made the occasions of good to men ; or of whatsoever may indirectly and at a distance , or ( as you speak before ) may any way , at any time , upon any person , by any accident , be useful towards the promoting of true religion ; this i do no where assert . and therefore you might have spared the instances by which you prove the contrary . there is no doubt but god , who can do what he pleases , by what means he pleases , and even without any means , can make many things occasions of good to men , which are not apt in their own natures to be so . nor do i doubt but sometimes , what in his infinite wisdom he sees would be hurtful and pernicious to all other men , he sees will be good and salutary to some particular persons , and accordingly in his goodness orders it for them . but if men should thence take occasion to apply such things generally ; who sees not , that however they might chance to hit right in some few cases ; yet upon the whole matter , they would certainly do a great deal more harm than good ? and in all pleas , as you tell us , for any thing because of its usefulness , it is not enough to say that it may be serviceable ; but it must be consider'd , not onely what it may , but what it is likely to produce : and the greater good or harm like to come from it , ought to determine the use of it . and therefore i can easily grant you , that as running a man through , though once upon a time it chanced to save a man's life by opening a lurking impostume , is nevertheless no lawful or justifiable chirurgery ; because it is always much more likely to let out men's lives , than to open lurking impostumes : so though loss of estate , &c. the gallies , and the torments suffer'd in the late persecution , might possibly , as directed and managed by divine providence , bring some persons to repentance , sobriety of thought , and a true sense of religion , &c. and so indirectly and at a distance serve to the salvation of their souls : yet since consider'd in themselves , and with respect to the generality of men , these methods , for the reasons alleged in my answer , are justly to be look'd upon us more apt to hinder , than to promote that end ; the success which god was pleas'd perhaps , but not bound to give them , will by no means justify them , or prove that the french king had right and authority to make use of them . this , i say , i can easily grant you . but how will this serve your purpose ? will it follow from hence , that the magistrate has no right to use any force at all , for the bringing men to the true religion ? or will any man say , that because the magistrate may not use those severities which are more apt to hinder , than to promote true religion , therefore he can use no lower penalties , though they be never so fit and serviceable to promote it ? if you say you think no penalties at all are fit to promote religion : to make me of your opinion , you must prove it some other way , than by alleging the unfitness of those severities . this , i suppose , may serve to shew with how little reason you say here , that if my indirect and at a distance serviceableness may authorize the magistrate to use force in religion , all the cruelties used by the heathens against christians , by papists against protestants , and all the persecuting of christians one amongst another , are all justifiable . ( not to take notice at present , how odly it sounds , that that which authorizes the magistrate to use moderate penalties , to promote the true religion , should justify all the cruelties that ever were used , to promote heathenisin , or popery . ) with what ingenuity you draw me in , to condemn force in general , onely because i acknowledge the ill effects of prosecuting men with fire and sword , &c. to make them christians , i think i may now leave every man to judge . but you say i shelter my self under the name of severities . for , say you , moderate punishments , as you call them in another place , ( penalties , sir , is my word : but since you say 't is punishments , let it be so : these ) you think may be serviceable , indirectly , and at a distance serviceable , to bring men to the truth . and i say , any sort of punishments disproportion'd to the offense , or where t●ere is no fault at all , will always be severity , unjustifiable severity , and will be thought so by the sufferers , a●d by-standers , &c. well , sir : and what then ? why , not to profess the national faith , whilest one believes it not to be true ; not to enter into church-communion with the magistrate , as long as one judges the doctrine there profess'd to be erroneous , or the worship not such as god hath prescribed , or will accept ; this you allow , and all the world with you m●st allow , not to be a fault . but yet you would have men punish'd for not being of the national religion ; that is , as you your self confess , for no fault at all . in which words you take a liberty to put ●pon me what you please . for i neither allow , nor confess , nor would have , what you are pleas'd to impute to me . but how far that is to be allow'd , which you say i do allow , and all the world with me must allow , will quickly appear . for ( to come to the point ; ) the national religion is eit●er true , or not true . if it be not true , no man is bound to believe ●t : and it is no fault in him that is not bound to believe it , not to profess it . if it be true ; then either there is sufficient provision made for instructing men in the truth of it , or there is not . if there be not ; then all men are not bound to believe it ; and ( as was said before ) in those who are not bound to believe it , it wi●l be no fault not to profess it . but if there be sufficient means of instruction provided for all ; then it must be a fault in all not to profess it ; because , in that case , it is a fault in all not to believe it . and the like is to be said concerning communion with the magistrate in divine worship . this i take to be very plain . and from hence these two things will unavoidably follow . 1. that no man ought to be punish'd for not being of any false religion , though it be the national religion : because it is no fault not to be of any false religion . 2. that all who have sufficient means of instruction provided for them , may justly be punish'd for not being of the national religion , where the true , is the national religion : because it is a fault in all such , not to be of that religion . and so all punishment for the sake of religion , will not be unjustifiable s●verity . for though , where there is no fault , there can be no moderate punishment ; yet all punishment is not immoderate , where there is a fault to be punish'd . now that which i would have , is , that this fault should be punish'd ; but so far onely , as may best , and most generally serve to correct it , i.e. in my opinion , with penalties below the rate of the punishments before mention'd . which i think you have not yet proved to be unjustifiable severity . the taking away men's lives to make them christians , i note as a manifest absurdity . and you grant that there is great absurdity somewhere in the case . and i assure you i am very well content that the imputation should lie where it ought to lie : and i know of no occasion i have given you to think otherwise . but here , having mention'd an example of this extreme absurdity ( as you justly call it ) which we have in a neighbouring country , where the prince declares he will have all his dissenting subjects saved , and pursuant thereunto has taken away the lives of many of them : you are pleas'd to add the following words : for thither at last persecution ( so , it s●ems , you call all use of punishments for religion ) must come : as , i fear , notwithstanding your talk of moderate punishments , you your self intimate in these words ; not that i think the sword is to be used in this business , ( as i have sufficiently declared already ; ) but because all coactive power resolves at last into the sword ; since all ( i do not say , that will not be reform'd in this matter by lesser penalties , but ) that refuse to submit to lesser penalties , must at last fall under the stroke of it . in which words if you mean any thing to the business in hand , you seem to have a reserve for greater punishments , when lesser are not sufficient to bring men to be convinced . and will you ever pretend to either conscience , or modesty , after this ? for , i beseech you , sir , what words could i have used more express or effectual , to signify , that in my opinion , no dissenters from the true religion ought to be punish'd with the sword , but such as choose rather to rebel against the magistrate , than to submit to lesser penalties ? ( for how any should refuse to submit to those penalties , but by rebelling against the magistrate , i suppose you will not undertake to tell me . ) 't was for this very purpose that i used those words , to prevent cavils ( as i was then so simple as to think i might : ) and i dare appeal to any man of common sense and common honesty , whether they are capable of any other meaning . and yet the very thing which i so plainly disclaim in them , you pretend ( without so much as offering to shew how ) to collect from them . thither , you say , at last ( viz. to the taking away men's lives for the saving their souls ) persecution must come : as you fear , nothwithstanding my talk of moderate punishments , i my self intimate in those words : and if i mean any thing in them to the business in hand , i seem to have a reserve ●●r greater punishments ▪ when l●●ser are not sufficient to bring men to be convinced ▪ sir , i should expect fairer dealing ●rom one o● your pagans or mahumetans . but i shall only add , th●t i would never wi●h that any man who has undertaken a bad cause , should more plain●y confess it , than by serving it as here ( and not here onely ) you s●rve yours . where i say , i● force b● used , not instead of reason and arguments , that is , not to convince by its own proper efficacy ( which it cannot do ) &c. you say you think those who make laws and use force , to bring men to church-conformity in religion , seek onely the compliance , but concern themselves not for the conviction of those they punish ; and so never use force to convince . for , you add , pray tell me ; when any di●●enter conforms , and enters into the church-communion , is he ever examin'd to see whether he does it upon reason , and conviction , and such grounds as would become a christian concern'd for religion ? if persecution ( as is pretended ) were for the salvation of men's souls , this would be done ; and men not driven to take the sacrament to keep their places , or to obtain licences to sell ale , ( for so low have these holy things been prostituted , ) &c. who they be that pretend that persecution is for the salvation of men's souls , i know not . but as to those magistrates , who having provided sufficiently for the instruction of all under their care , in the true religion , do make laws , and use moder●te penalties to bring men to the communion of the church of god , and to conformity to the rules and orders of it ; i think their behaviour does plainly enough speak them to seek and concer● themselves for the conviction of those whom they punish , and for their compliance , onely as the fruit of their conviction . nor do●s the contrary appear from the not examining dissenters when they conform , to see whether they do it upon reason and conviction , &c. for where the course i speak of is held , it is ordinarily presu●eable , that when dissenters conform , they do it upon reason , and conviction . and as to irreligious persons , who onely seek their secular advantage ; how easy is it for them to pretend conviction , and to offer such grounds ( if that were required ) as would become a christian concern'd for religion ? this is what no care of man can certainly prevent . and therefore if such persons profan● the sacrament , to keep their places , or to obtain licences to sell ale ; this is an horrible wickedness indeed ; but it is their own , and they alone must answer for it . but it is very unjust to impute it to those who make such laws , and use such force ; or to say that they prostitute holy things , and drive men to profane them . they design by their laws , to contribute what lies in them , to make men good christians : but if after all that they can do , wicked and godless men will still resolve to be so ; they will be so , and i know not who , but god almighty , can help it . that some men would through carelessness never acquaint themselves with the truth which must save them , without being forced to do it , ( which i suppose , ) may be very true , notwithstanding that ( as you say ) some are call'd at the third , some at the nineth , and some at the eleventh hour ; and whenever they are call'd , they embrace all the truth necessary to salvation . at least you do not shew why it may not : and therefore this may be no slip , for any thing you have said to prove it to be one . where the gross and palpable mistakes lie , appears , i suppose , in part already . but you instance in my saying that force used to bring men to consider , does indirectly , and at a distance , some service . for here , you tell me , i walk in the dark , and endeavour to cover my self with obscurity , by omitting two necessary parts . as , first , who must use this force . and yet your very next words are , which though you tell us not here ( where it would have been impertinent to tell you ; because , as any man may see , i was there onely to consider , whether force was useful , or not ; not who was to use it : ) yet by other parts of your treatise 't is plain you mean the magistrate . secondly , you tell me , i omit to say upon whom it must be used : whereas 't is plain enough too , as i suppose , by other parts of my treatise , that the force i speak of , is , according to my opinion , to be used upon such , and such onely , as having sufficient means of instruction in the true religion provided for them , do yet refuse to embrace it . but this you would not see ; because , it seems , you thought it more for your purpose to tell me , that those upon whom , in my opinion , force is to be used , if i say any thing to my purpose , must be dissenters from the national religion , those who come not into church-communion with the magistrate . and then , you say , my proposition in fair plain terms will stand thus : if the magistrate punish dissent●rs , onely to bring them to consider those reasons and arguments which are proper to convince them ; who can deny but that , indirectly , and at a distance , it may do service , &c. towards the bringing men to embrace that truth which otherwise they would never be acquainted with ? &c. in which proposition , you say , 1. there is something impracticable . 2. something unjust . and 3. whatever efficacy there is in force ( my way applied ) to bring men to consider and be convinced , it makes against me . 1. you say , it is impracticable to punish dissenters , as dissenters , onely to make them consider . and why so ? the reason follows : for if you punish them as dissenters , you punish them for not being of the national religion . and to punish a man for not being of the national religion , is not to punish him onely to make him consider ; unless not to be of the national religion , and not to consider , be the same thing . but cannot dissenters be punish'd for not being of the national religion , as the fault , and yet onely to make them co●sider , as the end for which they are punish'd ? cannot this be the onely end , unless it be the onely cause also of their punishment ? but after all , whoever will but consider my words , will easily see that there was no manner of occasion for this subtlety . for my words are , if force be used not instead of reason and arguments , i.e. not to convince by its own proper efficacy ( which it cannot do ) but onely to bring men to consider those reasons and arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince them , &c. where 't is plain that by onely , i exclude no other e●d of the use of force , but onely that of convincing men's minds by its own proper efficacy . if you suppose ( as you seem here to do ) that i am for ●unishing dissenters , whether they consider or no ; you are in a great mistake . for the dissenters ( which is your word , and not mine ) whom i am for punishing , are onely such as reject the true religion , proposed to them with reasons and arguments sufficient to convince them of the truth of it : who therefore can never be supposed to consider those reasons and arguments as they ought , wh●lest they persist in rejecting that religion , or ( in your language ) whilest they continue dissenters : for if they did so consider them , they would not continue dissente●s . 2. you say , to punish men out of the communion of the national church , to make them consider , is unjust . they are punish'd , because out of the national church : and they are out of the national church , because they are not yet convinced . their standing out therefore in this state , whilest they are not convinced , not satisfied in their minds , is no fault ; and therefore cannot justly be punish'd . to which i answer : where the national church is the true church of god , to which all men ought to join themselves ; and sufficient evidence is offer'd , to convince men that it is so : there it is a fault to be out of the national church , because it is a fault not to be convinced that the national church is that true church of god. and therefore since there men's not being so convinced , can onely be imputed to their not considering as they ought , the evidence which is offer'd to convince them ; it cannot be unjust to punish them to make them so to consider it . what iustice it would be for the magistrate to punish me for not being a cartesian , it will be time enough to consider , when you have proved it to be ●s necessary for men to be cartesians , as it is to be christians , or members of god's church . 3. you say , whatever indirect efficacy there be in force , applied your way , it makes against you . force used by the magistrate to bring men to consider those reasons and arguments , which are proper and suffi●ient to convince them , but which without being forced , they would not consider ; may , say you , be serviceable indirectly , and at a distance , to make men embrace the truth which must save them . and thus , say i , it may be serviceable to bring men to receive and embrace falshood , which will destroy them . how , sir ? may force used by the magistrate to bring men to consider those reasons and arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince them , be serviceable to bring men to embrace falshood ? such falshood as will destroy them ? it ●eems then , there are reasons and arguments , which are proper and sufficient to convince men of the truth of falshood which will destroy them . which is certainly a very extraordinary discovery ; though such as no man can have any reason to thank you for . that god , in his just judgement , will send such as receive not the love of the truth , that they may be saved , but reject it for the pleasure they have in unrighteousness , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , strong delusion , i. e. such reasons and arguments as will prevail wi●h men so disposed , to believe a lie , that they may be damn'd ; this , i confess , the scripture plainly teaches us . but that there are any such reasons or arguments , as are proper and sufficient to co●vince or satisfy any , but such resolute and obdurate sinners , of the truth of such falshood as will destroy them , is a position which i ●n●sure the scripture does not teach us , and which , when you have better consider'd it , i hope you will not undertake to maintain . and yet if it be not maintainable , what you say here is to no purpose : for if there be no such reasons and arguments as he●e we speak of , 't is in vain to talk of the magistrate ▪ s using force to make men consider them . but however , let it be supposed , if you plea●e , that there are such reasons and arguments as are proper and sufficient to convince men of the truth of falshood which will destroy them ; and , that force applied by the magistrate to make men consider the● , might be serviceable to bring men to receive and embrace such falshood : what will you conclude from thence ? may it not be tr●e nevertheless , that force used by the magistrate to bring men to consider those reasons and arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince them , but which without being forced they would not consider , may be serviceable indirectly , and at a distance , to bring men to embrace the truth which must save them ? which is all that i am here concern'd to make good . but not content to say , that force my way applied ( i.e. to bring men to embrace the truth which must save them ) may be serviceable to bring men to embrace falshood which will destroy them ; and so is proper to do as much harm as good ; ( which seems strange enough ; ) you add ( to encreate the wonder ) that in my indirect way , it is much more proper , and likely , to make men receive and embrace error , than the truth : and that , 1. because men out of the right way are as apt , and you think you may say apter , to use force , than others . which is , doub●less , an irrefragable demonstration , that force used by the magistrate to bring men to receive and embrace the truth which ●ust save them , is much more proper and likely to make men receive error , than the truth . but , sir , i beseech you , how come we to talk here of what men out of the right way , are apt to do , to bring others into their , i. e. a wrong way ; where we are onely enquiring , what may be done to bring men to the right way ? for that , i must put you in mind , is our question , viz. whether the magist●ate has any right to use force , to bring men to the true religion ? now whereas our author says that penalties , or force is absolutely impertinent in this case , because it is not proper to convince the mind ; to which i answer , that though force be not proper to convince the mind , yet it is not absolutely impertinent in this case , because it may , however , do some service towards the bringing men to embrace the truth which must save them , by bringing ●hem to consider those reasons and arguments which are proper to convince the mind , and which without being forced , they would not consider : here you tell me , no , but it is much more proper , and l●kely , to make men receive and embrace error than truth ; because ●en out of the right way are as apt , and perhaps apter , to use force , than others . which is as good a proof , i believe , as the thing would admit : for otherwise , i suppose , you would have given us a better . as to what you say here , on the by , of the mildness and gentleness of the gospel , which is apter to use prayers and intreaties , then force , to gain a hearing : i shall onely demand of you , whether the mildness and gentleness of the gospel destroys the coactive power of the magistrate , or not ? if you say it does not ; ( and i suppose you will not say it does ; ) then it seems the magistrate may use his coactive power , without offending against the mildness and gentleness of the gospel . and so , though they that have not that power , can onely use prayers and intreaties to gain a hearing : yet it will consist well enough with the mildness and gentleness of the gospel , for the magistrate to use his coactive power to procure them a hearing , where their prayers and intreaties will not do it . but you say force in my indirect way , is much more proper , and likely , to make men receive and embrace error than truth , 2. because the magistrates of the world being few of them in the right way ; ( not one of ten , let me take which side i will ) perhaps not one of an hundred being of the true religion ; 't is likely my indirect way of using force would do an hundred , or at least ten times as much harm as good : &c. which would have been to the purpose , if i had asserted that every magistrate may use force , my indirect way ( or any way ) to bring men to his own religion , whatever that be . but if i assert no such thing ; ( as no man , i think , but an atheist , will assert it : ) then this is quite beside the business . but to shew me that , under another pretense , i put into the magistrate's hands as much power to force men to his religion , as any the openest persecutors can pretend to , you ask , what difference is there between punishing men to bring them to mass ; and punishing them to bring them to consider those reasons and arguments , which are proper and sufficient to convince them that they ought to go to mass ? a question which i shall then think my self oblige● to answer , when you have produced those reasons and arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince men that they ought to go to mass. if you reply , say you , ( to this pleasant question , ) you meant reasons and arguments proper and sufficient to convince them of the truth : i answer , if you meant so , why did not you say so ? as if it were possible for any man that reads my answer , to think i meant otherwise . but , say you , if you had said so , it would in this case do you little service . for the mass , in france , is as much supposed the truth , as the liturgy here . so that it seems , in your opinion , whatsoever is supposed the truth , is the truth : ( for otherwise this reason of yours is none at all . ) which evidently makes all religions alike , to those who suppose them true . which is the thing you must own , if you will maintain that my way of applying force will as much promote popery in france , as protestantism in england . whether this usefulness of force amounts to no more but this , that it is not impossible but that it may be useful , i leave to be judged by what has been said . but you proceed , and say , force your way applied , as it may be useful , so also it may be useless . for , 1. where the law punishes dissenters , without telling them it is to make them consider , t●ey may through ignorance and oversight neglect to do it , and so your force proves useless . but where the law provides sufficient ●eans of instruction for all , as well as punishment for dissenters , it is so plain to all concern'd , that the punishment is intended to make them consider , that i see no danger of men's neglecting to do it , through ignorance or oversight . 2. you say , some dissent●rs may have consider'd already , and then force employ'd upon them must needs be useless ; unless you can think it useful to punish a man to make him do that which he hath done already . and i say , no man ●ho rejects truth necessary to his salvation , has consider'd already , as he ought to consider : which is enough to shew the vanity of this argument . 3. you say , god has not directed it : and therefore we have no reason to expect he should make it successful . the contrary of which shall be shewn in a more proper place . you add further , that force may be hurtful : nay , you say , it is likely to prove more hurtful than useful . 1. because to punish men for that , which 't is visible cannot be known whether they ha●e perform'd or no , is so palpable an injustice , &c. ( which has already been spoken to . ) 2. because the greatest part of mankind being not able to discern betwixt truth and falshood , that depend upon long and many proofs , and remote consequences ; nor having ability enough to discover the false grounds , and resist the captious and fallacious arguments of learned men vers'd in controversies ; are so much more exposed , by the force which is used to make them hearken to the information and instruction of men appointed to it by the magistrate , or those of his religion , to be led into falshood and error than they are likely this way to be brought to embrace the truth which mu●t save them ; by how much the national religions of the world are , beyond comparison , more of them false or erroneous , than such as have god for their author , and truth for their standard . if the first part of this be true ; then an infallible guide , and implicit faith are more necessary than ever i thought them . for if the greatest part of mankind be not able to discern betwixt truth and falshood , in matters concerning their salvation , ( as you must mean , if you speak to the purpose ; ) their condition must needs be very hazardous , if they have not some guide or iudge , to whose determination and direction they may securely resign themselves . but for my part , as i know of no such guide of god's appointing , so i think there is no need of any such ; because notwithstanding the long and many proofs , and remote consequences , the false grounds , and the captious and fallacious arguments of learned men vers'd in controversies , with which you ( as well as those of the roman communion ) endeavour to amuse us , through the goodness of god , the truth which is necessary to salvation , lies so obvious and exposed to all that sincerely and diligently seek it , that no such person shall ever fail of attaining the knowledge of it . nor is the famous instance you give us , of the two rainoldses , of any moment to prove the contrary ; unless you can undertake that he that err'd , was as sincere in his enquiry after that truth , as you suppose him able to examine and judge . but ( whatever you think of this matter ) 't is plain the force you here speak of , is not force my way applied ; i.e. applied to the promoting the true religion onely , but to the promoting of all the national religions in the world. and therefore i can easily grant you all that you would have , without any the least prejudice to my cause . for how much soever the national religions are more of them false or erroneous , than such as have god for their author , and truth for their standard ; and how much soever the greatest part of mankind may be exposed , by the force which is used to make them hearken to the information and instruction of men appointed to it by the magistrate , or those of his religion , to be led into falshood and error , than they are likely this way to be brought to embrace the truth which must save them : yet every one sees that it may be true nevertheless , that convenient force used to bring men to the true religion , ( which is all that i contend for , and all that i allow , ) may be very serviceable for that purpose , by bringing men to that consideration , which nothing else ( besides the extraordinary grace of god ) would bring them to : which is that which i mean by doing service indirectly , and at a distance , toward the bringing men to the true religion , and so to salvation . you might therefore , for any thing i see , have spared the pains you have here taken , to give me a view of the usefulness of force my way applied . for how confidently soever you tell ●e that it amounts but to the shadow and possibility of usefulness , but with an overbalancing weight of mischief and harm annex'd to it ; i hope i have sufficiently made it appear , that instead of proving this , you have onely trifled hitherto , and said nothing at all ag●inst my assertion . having thus , as you imagine , or ( to speak more properly perhaps ) as you would have it thought , destroy'd the usefulness of force which i had asserted , you go on to new matter of triumph . but suppose , say you , force applied your way , were as useful for the promoting true religion , as i suppose i have shew'd it to be ●he contrary ; it does not from thence follow that it is lawful and may be used . by your savour , sir , i think it does follow from thence , that force is not therefore unlawful to be used , because it is utterly useless , or absolutely impertinent : which is all that i was to shew against our author : that being all in effect , that he says , to prove the unlawfulness of using force in matters of religion ; as has already been made appear , against all that you say to the contrary . but as to the lawfulness of such force as i take to be useful for the promoting the true religion ; i must again put you in mind , that i do not ground it upon the bare usefulness of such force , but upon the necessity , as well as usefulness of it : as any man must acknowledge that reads my answer : where as i shew at large , that force is generally necessary to bring those tha● wander , to the right way ; so i expresly declare that i look upon outward force to be no fit means to be used either for that purpose , or for any other , where it is not necessary , as well as useful . and therefore how useful soever you may suppose it in a parish that has no teacher , or as bad as none , that a layman that wanted not abilities for it , should sometimes preach to them the doct●ine of the gospel , &c. yet unless you suppose it necessary withall , it will not serve your purpose . and that you cannot suppose it necessary , is evident ; because any such parish may quickly have redress , if they will but seek it . ( whether i have rightly framed the author's argument , or not , has already been consider'd . ) you say further , as force applied your way is apt to make the inconsiderate consider , so force applied another way , is as apt to make the lascivious chaste , &c. thus you see castration may indirectly , and at a distance , be serviceable towards the salvation of men's souls . but will you say , from such a● usefulness as this , that therefore the magistrate has a right to do it , and may by force make his subjects eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven ? where again i must tell you , that unless you will say castration is necessary , as well as apt , to make the lascivious chaste ; this will afford you no advantage . now i suppose you will not say castration is necessary , because i hope you acknowledge that marriage , and that grace which god denies to none who seriously ask it , are sufficient for that purpose . but , however , this is not a like case . for if castration makes any lascivious person chaste ; it does it by taking away the part upon which the power of offending depends : whereas the force which i think may be used in order to the ●uring men of destructive errors concerning the way of salvation , does not destroy the possibility of erring , by taking away , or any way disabling the offending part , but leaves men's brains safe in their skulls . indeed if i had said , that to cure men of damnable or dangerous errors , it is useful to knock out their brains ; the case had been exactly parallel ( as far as usefulness goes . ) but since i say no such thing , i hope no man that has any brains , will say it is . you add , it is not for the magistrate , or any body else , upon an imagination of its usefulness , to make use of any other means , for the salvation of men's souls , than what the author and finisher of our faith has directed . which , how true soever , is not , i think , very much to the purpose . for if the magistrate does only assist that ministery which our lord has appointed , by using so much of his coactive power for the furthering their service , as common experience discovers to be useful and necessary for that end ; there is no manner of ground to say , that upon an imagination of its usefulness , he makes use of any other means for the salvation of men's souls , than what the author and finisher of our faith has directed . 't is true indeed , the author and finisher of our faith has given the magistrate no new power , or commission : nor was there any need that he should , ( if himself had had any temporal power to give : ) for he found him already , even by the law of nature , the minister of god to the people for good , and bearing the sword not in vain , i.e. invested with coactive power , and obliged to use it for all the good purposes which it might serve , and for which it should be ●ound needful ; even for the restraining of false and corrupt religion ; as iob long before ( perhaps before any part of the scriptures were written ) acknowledged , when he said that the worshiping the sun or the moon , was an iniquity to be punish'd by the iudge . but though our saviour has given the magistrates no new power ; yet being king of kings , he expects and requires , that they should submit themselves to his sceptre , and use the power which always belong'd to them , for his service , and for the advancing his spiritual kingdom in the world. and even that charity which our great master so earnestly recommends , and so strictly requires of all his disciples , as it obliges all men to seek and promote the good of others , as well as their own , especially their spiritual and eternal good , by such means as their several places and relations enable them to use ; so does it especially oblige the magistrate to do it as a magistrate , i.e. by that power which enables him to do it above the rate of other men . so far therefore is the christian magistrate , when he gives his helping hand to the furtherance of the gospel , by laying convenient penalties upon such as reject it , or any part of it , from using any other means for the salvation of men's souls , than what the author and finisher of our faith has directed , that he does no more than his duty to god , to his redeemer , and to his subjects , requires of him . you add , you may be mistaken in what you think useful . no doubt of that , sir : but you have not shewn that i am mistaken . dives thought , say you , and so perhaps should you and i too , if not better inform'd by the scriptures , that it would be useful to rouze and awaken men , if one should come to them from the dead . but he was mistaken . and we are told , that if men will not hearken to moses and the prophets , the means , appointed , neither will the strangeness nor terror of one coming from the dead perswade them . very good , sir : and what then ? dives thought , it seems , that though moses and the prophets had not prevail'd with his brethren to repent ; yet if lazarus were sent to them from the dead , to testify what he had seen and heard in the other world ; such an evidence as this , so much greater than moses and the prophets had given , of the necessity of repentance , would not fail of taking effect upon them . but herein abraham assures him he was mistaken ; and t●at the true ground of his brethren's not being perswaded by m●ses and the prophets , was not any want of evidence in them ( as he thought it was , ) but onely their own hardness and insensibility , contracted by the custom of sinning , which render'd them incapable of any impressions from the greatest evidence that could be given . this i take to be the meaning of those words , if they hear not moses and the prophets , ( i.e. if they hear them not effectually , so as to be perswaded by them ; as appears by the next clause , where the same thing is express'd by that word ; ) neither will they be perswaded , though one rose from the dead . but how does this concern the matter before us ? is there any thing in my assertion like this mistake of dives ? do i any where say that the means appointed for the satisfying men's minds concerning the true religion , are not sufficient to do it , without the assistance of outward force ? or , that the magistrate is more likely to convince men's understanding , by inflicting penalties , than christ's ministers are , by preaching the gospel ? if i had said any such thing , you might reasonably enough have put me in mind how dives was mistaken in what he thought useful . but if i do expresly deny that force has any proper efficacy to convince men's minds , and do place all its usefulness in its subserviency to the means appointed for that purpose , as it is apt to take off that unreasonable aversness and prejudice , which usually keeps those who reject the truth , from applying themselves to those means : then though dives was mistaken in thinking that lazarus might be able to convert his brethren , though moses and the prophets had not done it ; it may , however , be no mistake , to think force useful for the purpose for which i affirm it to be so . you go on : if what we are apt to think useful were thence to be concluded so , we should ( i fear ) be obliged to believe the miracles pretended to by the church of rome . never fear it , sir ; for i assure you there is no danger of it . but it seems you think there is . for , say you , miracles , we know , were once useful for the promoting true religion , and the salvation of souls ; which is more than you can say for your political punishments . but yet we must conclude that god thinks them not useful now , unless we will say ( that which without impiety cannot be said ) that the wise and benign disposer and governer of all things does not now use all useful means for promoting his own honour in the world , and the good of souls . and then you add , i think this consequence will hold , as well as what you draw in near the same words . but i think it is easy to shew it will not . for in the place you intend , i speak not of useful , but of competent , i. e. sufficient means . now competent , or sufficient means are necessary : but i think no man will say that all useful means are so . and therefore though , as i affirm , it cannot be said without impiety , that the wise and benign disposer and governer of all things has not furnish'd mankind with competent means for the promoting his own honour in the world , and the good of souls ; yet it is very agreeable with piety and with truth too , to say that he does not now use all useful means : because as none of his attributes obliges him to use more than sufficient means ; so he may use sufficient means , without using all useful means . for where there are many useful means , and some of them are sufficient without the rest , there is no necessity of using them all . so that from god 's not using miracles now , to promote the true religion , you cannot conclude that he does not think them useful now , but onely that he does not think them necessary . and therefore though what we are apt to think useful , were thence to be concluded so ; yet if whatever is useful , be not likewise to be concluded necessary ; there is no reason to fear that we should be obliged to believe the miracles pretended to by the church of rome . for if miracles be not now necessary , there is no inconvenience in thinking the miracles pretended to by the church of rome , to be but pretended miracles . but after all , how comes this supposition in , that what we are apt to think useful , is thence to be concluded so ? for , whatever you would insinuate , i speak not of what we are apt to think or phansy , with little or no reason , to be useful : but of what we judge so upon just and sufficient grounds : upon a strong probability of success ( which you your self seem to think sufficient , not onely to ground an opinion of its usefulness , but even to warrant the use of it , ) grounded upon the consideration of humane nature , and the general temper of mankind , apt to be wrought upon by the method i speak of : and upon the indisputable attestation of experience . for how confidently soever you tell me here , that it is more than i can say for my political punishments , that they were ever useful for the promoting true religion ; i appeal to all observing persons , whether where-ever true religion , or sound christianity has been nationally received , and establish'd by moderate penal laws , it has not always visibly lost ground by the relaxation of those laws : whether sects and heresies ( even the wildest and most absurd , ) and even epicurism and atheism have not continually thereupon spread themselves : and whether the very spirit and life of christianity has not sensibly decayed , as well as the number of sound professors of it been dayly lessen'd upon it . ( not to speak of what at this time our eyes cannot but see , for fear of giving offense : though i hope it will be none to any that have a just concern for truth and piety , to take notice of the books and pamphlets which now fly so thick about this kingdom , manifestly tending to the multiplying of sects and divisions , and even to the promoting of scepticism in religion among us . in which number i shall not much need your pardon , if i reckon the first , and second letter concerning toleration ) and if these have always been the fruits of the relaxation of moderate penal laws , made for the preserving and advancing true religion ; i think this consideration alone is abundantly sufficient to shew the usefulness and benefit of such laws . for if these evils have constantly sprung from the relaxation of those laws , 't is evident they were prevented before by those laws . though the work of our salvation be , as you justly call it , stupendous and supernatural ; yet i suppose no sober man doubts but it both admits , and ordinarily requires the use of natural and humane means , in subordination to that grace which works it . and therefore till you have shewn ( as you have not yet ) that no penal laws that can be made , can do any service toward the salvation of men's souls , in subordination to god's grace ; or that god has forbidden the magistrate to serve him in that great work , with the authority which he has given him ; there will be no occasion for the caution you give us , not to be wiser than our maker in that stupendous and supernatural work . you add , when you can shew any commission in scripture , for the use of force , to compell men to hear , any more than to embrace the doctrine of others that differ from them , we shall have reason to submit to it , and the magistrate have some ground to set up this n●w way of persecution . to which i answer : though no force can compell men to embrace ( if by that you mean , to believe ) the doctrine of others that differ from them ; yet some force may induce those who would not otherwise , to hear what may and ought to move them to embrace the truth . and if the magistrate has commission to use convenient force , or penalties , for that purpose ; his doing it will not be the setting up a new way of persecution , but the discharging an old duty . i call it so , because it is as old as the law of nature , in which the magistrate's commission lies , as has been shewn already . for the scri●ture does not properly give it him , but presupposes it ( and spe●ks of him as antecedently entrusted with it , ) as it does also the law of nature , which is god's law as well as the scripture . but till then , you say , ( i. e. till i can shew a commission in scripture , &c. ) 't will be fit for us to obey that precept of the g●spel , which bids us take heed what we hear . so that hearing is not always so useful as you suppose . if it had , we should never have had so direct a caution against it . this , i suppose , is onely intended for the vulgar reader . for all the force of it lies in our english version of the text you mention : which may , and ought ( the context requiring it ) to be render'd attend , or give heed to what you hear . and if this be the true sense of the place , ( as any one that considers it well , will find it to be ; ) then our saviour's precep● is so far from being a direct caution against hearing , that on the contrary , it requires hearing with great attention and consideration . go and teach all nations , you say , was a commission of our saviour's : but there was not added to it , punish those that will not hear and consider what you say . no , but if they will not receive you , shake off the dust of your feet ; leave them , and apply your sel●es to some others . which is all very true indeed , but nothing at all to your purpose . for as our saviour was no magistrate , and therefore could not inflict political punishments upon any man ; so much less could he empower his apostles to do it . but as he could not punish men to make them hear him ; so neither was there any need that he should . he came as a prophet sent from god , to re●eal a new doctrine to the world. and therefore to prove his m●ssion , he was to do such things as could onely be done by a divine power . and the works which he did , were abundantly sufficient both to gain him a hearing , and to oblige the world to receive his doctrine . and accordingly , when he sent his apostles to preach his gospel , though as he could not , so he did not add , punish those that will not hear and consider what you say ; yet he communicated to them the power of miracles , and bad them heal the sick , cleanse the lepers , raise the dead , and cast out devils : which might serve altogether as well to procure them a hearing , and a great deal better , to manifest the divine authority of their doctrine , so as to leave them that should not embrace it , more inexcusable than sodom and gomorrha . and what extraordinary gifts and powers our lord bestow'd after his asscension , for the propagation of his gospel , which were continued in his church , in such measures as he thought fit , for some ages after , i need not mention . but what can be concluded from hence ? that when christian religion was sufficiently rooted and establish'd in the world , and those extraordinary graces were withdrawn , as no longer necessary , penal laws could do no service toward the preserving and promoting it ? or , that the christian magistrate had no authority to make any such laws for the preserving and promoting it ? no such matter . on the contrary , considering that those extraordinary m●ans were not withdrawn , till by their help christianity had prevail'd to be receiv'd for the religion of the empire , and to be supported and encouraged by the laws of it , i cannot but think it highly probable , ( if we may he allow'd to guess at the counsils of infinite wisdom , ) that god was pleas'd to continue them till then , not so much for any necessity there was of them all that while for the evincing the truth of the christian religion , as to supply the want of the magistrate's assistance . you add further : st. paul knew no other means to make men hear , but the preaching of the gospel , as will appear to any one who will read rom. 10.14 , &c. faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the word of god. but whoever will consider ▪ as well as read the place , will find no such matter in it . st. paul demands here , how shall men hear without a preacher ? but will any man say because a preacher , or preaching is always necessary , therefore nothing else ●an ever be so ? if not ; then it will not follow from this demand , that the apostle knew no other means to make men hear , but the preaching of the gospel . as to those words , vers . 17. suppose the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there , to be rightly render'd hearing , and that the word of god signifies the word preach'd yet even so every one sees they will serve your turn but just as well as the other . but if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be there render'd report ( and i do not see why it may not ) as it is in the foregoing verse , ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; who has believed our report ? ) then the sense will be , faith cometh by report , or preaching ; and preaching by the word of god , i. e. by the word of god instructing and sending the preacher , according to vers . 15. which sets that text at a greater distance yet from your purpose . where to shew the necessity of penalties to bring men to hearken to instruction , and to consider and examine matters of religion as they ought to do , i allege that such as are out of the right way , are usually so prejudiced against it , that no intreaties or perswasions will prevail with them so much as to give an ear to those who call them to it ; so that there seems to be no other means left ( besides the grace of god ) but penalties onely , to bring them to hear and consider , and so to embrace the truth ; you demand , what if god , for reasons best known to himself , would not have men compell'd to hear ( i. e. as far as moderate penalties will compell them : otherwise i am not concern'd in this demand : ) but thought the good tidings of salvation , and the proposals of life and death , means and induc●ments enough to make them hear and consider , now as well as ●ere●o●●●e ? where , first , you must give me leave to demand , how it appears that god thought the good tidings of salvation , &c. enough heretofore ; when he endued the preachers of the gospel with the gift of tongues , and with the power of healing all manner of diseases , &c. as well to bring men to hear and consider , as to believe ? secondly i say , that if god , for reasons best known to himself , would not have moderate penalties used , now that miracles are ceased ●o induce men to ●ea● and consider , he would have told us so ; and you ought to have shewn us where he has done it . you go on , demanding , what if god would have men left to their freedom in this point , if they will hear , or if they will forbear , will you constrain them ? thus we are siere he did with his own people , &c. but those words , whether they will hear , or whether they will forbear , which we find th●ice used in the prophet ezekiel , are nothing at all to your purpose . fo● by hearing there , no man un●erstands the bare giving an ear to what was to be preach'd , nor yet the considering it onely ; but the complying with it , and obeying it : according to the paraphrase which gro●ius gives of the words , ezek. 2.5 . si●se co●●●gu●● , rectè : si non ( quod hactenus magis de illis credibile est , ob summam pertinaciam ) erunt mexcusati . however , the penalties i defend , are not such as can any way be pretended to take away men's freedom in this point . you add , this also is the method of the gospel . we are ambassadours for christ , as if god did beseech you by us , we pray in christ's stead , saith st. paul , 2. cor 5.20 . if god had thought it necessary to have men punish'd to make them give ear , he could have call'd magistrates to be spreaders and ministers of the gospel , as well as poor fishermen , or paul a persecutor , who yet wanted not power to punish where punishment was necessary , as is evident in ananias and sapphira , and the incestuous corinthian . but though it be the method of the gospel , for the ministers of it to pray and beseech men ; yet it appears from your own words here , both that punishment may be sometimes necessary , and that punishing , and that even by those who are to pray and beseech , is consistent with that method . why penalties were not necessary at first , to make men give ●ar to the gospel , has already been shewn . and , from the same ground , it seems not hard to conjecture , why god was pleas'd to call poor fishermen , rather than magistrates , to be spreaders and ministers of the gospel . for as the great and wonderful things which were to be done for the evidencing the truth of the gospel , were abundantly sufficient to procure attention to it , without any help from the magistrate ; so they were much more admirable and convincing , as done by the hands of such mean persons , than they would have been , if they had been done by princes or magistrates . to which i may add , that the conversion of the world to christianity , without the help , and notwithstanding the utmost resistance of the civil powers , was to be the great evidence , to all succeeding ages , of a divine power accompanying the gospel , and furthering the progress of it : which evidence would have been wanting , if god had from the beginning used the service of the magistrate in propagating his gospel . you demand further , what if god , foreseeing this force would be in the hands of men as passionate , as humoursome , as liable to prejudice and error as the rest of their brethren , did not think it a proper means to bring men into the right way ? but if there be any thing of an argument in this , it proves that there ought to be no civil government in the world ; and so proving too much , proves nothing at all . the scripture tells us , that the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of god. and yet god has put the sword into the magistrate's hand , though he may be as passionate , as humoursome , &c. as the rest of his brethren . so that , unless you would have no government , or discipline in the world , you must acknowledge , that how passionate or humoursome soever , or how liable soever to prejudice and error god foresaw magistrates would be , there is not the least colour to inferr from thence , that he did not think moderate penalties , used to bring men into the right way , a proper means to bring them into it . lastly you demand , what if there be other means ? and then you add , then yours ceases to be necessary , upon the account that there is no means left . for you your self allow that the grace of god is another means . and i suppose you will not deny it to be both a proper and sufficient means ; and which is more , the onely means ; such means as can work by itself , and without which all the force in the world can do nothing . to which i answer : though the grace of god be another means , and i thought fit to mention it , to prevent cavils ; yet it is none of the m●●ns of which i was speaking in the place you referr to ; which any one who reads that paragraph , will find to be onely humane means . and therefore ●hough the grace of god be both a proper and sufficient means , and such as can work by it self , and without which neither penalties , nor any other means can do any thing ; yet it may be true however , that when admonitions and intreaties fail , there is no humane means left , but penalties , to bring prejudiced persons to hear and consider what may convince them of their errors , and discover the truth to them . and then penalties will be necessary in respect to that end , as an humane means . what you intend by saying that the grace of god is the onely means , i do not well understand . if you mean onely that it is the principal and most necessary means , and that without which all other means are vain and ineffectual ; i grant it is so . or if you mean that it is the onely necessary means , as being able to do its work without any help of other means ; this i have already granted . but if by calling it the onely means , you intend to say that it does either always , or ordinarily exclude all other means ; i see no ground you have to say it . yes , say you : god alone can open the ear that it may hear , and open the heart that it may understand . but , by your ●●vour , this does not prove that he makes use of no means in doing it . for whatever means we may suppose him to make use of , it is he alone still that does it , though he does it by the means he makes use of . you add , and this he does ( i.e. he opens the ear that it may hear , and the heart that it may understand ) in his own good time , and to whom he is gratiously pleas'd , but not according to the will and phansy of man , when he thinks fit , by punishments , to compell his brethren . by which i su●pose you mean , that the magistrate has no ground to hope that god will bless any penalties that he may use , to bring men to hear and consider the doctrine of sa●vation : or ( which is the same thing ) that god does not ( at least not ord●●arily ) afford his grace and assistance to them who are brought by such penalties to hear and consider that doctrine , to enable them to hear and consider it as they ought , i. e. so as to be moved heartily to embrace it . if this be your meaning ; then to let you see that it is not true , i shall onely desire you to tell me , whether they that are so brought to hear and consider , are bound to believe the gospel , or not ? if you say they are ; ( and i suppose you dare not say otherwise ; ) then it evidently follows that god does afford them that grace which is requisite to enable them to believe the gospel : because without that grace , it is impossible for them to believe it ; and they cannot be bound to believe what it is impossible for them to believe . you go on : if god has pronounced against any person or people , what he did against the iews ( isai. 6.10 . ) make the heart of this people fat , and make their ears heavy , and shut their eyes ; lest they see with their eyes , and hear with their ears , and understand with their hearts , and convert , and be heal'd ; will all the force you can use , be a means to make them hear and understand and be converted ? no , sir ; it will not . but what then ? what if god declares that he will not heal those , who have long resisted all his ordinary methods , and made themselves , morally speaking , incurable by them ? ( which is the utmost you can make of the words you quote . ) will it follow from thence , that no good can be done by penalties upon others , who are not so far gone in wickedness and obstinacy ? if it will not ; as it is evident it will not ; to what purpose is this said ? in the next place you attempt to return my argument . and that you may do it the more successfully , you represent it ( as you commonly do ) in such a manner , as if i allow'd any magistrate , of what religion soever , to lay penalties upon all that dissent from him : whereas in my own words it stands thus : when men fly from the means of a right information , and will not so much as consider how reasonable it is , throughly and impartially to examine a religion which they embraced upon such inducements as ought to have no sway at all in the matter , and therefore with little or no examination of the proper grounds of it : what humane method can be used , to bring them to act like men , in an affair of such consequence , and to make a wiser and more rational choice , but that of laying such penalties upon them , as may balance the weight of those prejudices which enclined them to preferr a false way before the true , & c ? now this argument you pretend to retort in this manner : and i say , i see no other means left ( taking the world as we now find it , wherein the magistrate never lays penalties , for matters of religion , upon those of his own church , nor is it to be expected they ever should ) to make men of the national church , any where , throughly and impartially examine a religion which they embraced upon such inducements as ought to have no sway at all in the matter , and therefore with little or no examination of the proper grounds of it . and therefore i conclude the use of force by dissenters upon conformists necessary . and then you add , i appeal to all the world , whether this be not as just and natural a conclusion as yours . and i am well content the world should judge . and when it determines , that there is the same reason to say , that to bring those who conform to the national church , to examine their religion , it is necessary for dissenters ( who cannot possibly have the coactive power , because the national church has that on its side , and cannot be national without it ) to use force upon conformists ; as there is to say , that where the national church is the true church , there to bring dissenters ( as you call them ) to examine their religion , it is necessary for the magistrate ( who has the coactive power ) to lay moderate penalties upon them for dissenting : i say , when the world determines thus , i will never pretend any more to judge what is reasonable , in any case whatsoever . for i doubt not but i may safely presume that the world will easily admit these two things . 1. that though it be very fit and desireable , that all that are of the true religion , should understand the true groun●s of it ; that so they may be the better able both to defend themselves against the assaults of seducers , and to reduce such as are out of the way : yet this is not strictly necessary to their salvation : because experience shews ( as far as men are capable to judge of such matters ) that many do heartily believe and profess the true religion , and conscientiously practice the duties of it , who ye● do not understand the true grounds upon which it challenges their belief : and no man doubts but whoever does so believe , profess , and practice the true religion , if he perseveres to the end , shall certainly attain salvation by it . 2. that how much soever it concerns those who reject the true religion ( whom you may call dissenters , if you please ) to examine and consider why they do so ; and how needful soever penalties may be to bring them to this : it is , however , utterly unreasonable that such as have not the coactive power , should take upon them to inflict penalties for that purpose : because , as that is not consistent with order and government ; which cannot stand , where private persons are permitted to usurp the coactive power : so there is nothing more manifest , than that the prejudice which is done to religion , and to the interest of men's souls , by destroying government , does infinitely outweigh any good that can possibly be done by that which destroys it . and whoever admits and considers these things , i am very secure he will be far enough from admitting , that there is any parity of reason in the cases we here speak of , or that yours is as just and natural a conclusion as mine . what follows here , has been sufficiently consider'd already . you say , faith is the gift of god. and i say , this gift comes , ordinarily at least , by hearing . and if the magistrate be both warranted and obliged to use convenient penalties to bring his subjects to hear the gospel ; as i think i have shewn that he is ; then , in doing so , he cannot be said to use any other means to procure this gift to any one , than what god himself has prescribed . if , say you , all the means god has appointed , to make men hear and consider , be exhortation in season and out of season , &c. together with prayer for them , and the example of meekness and a good life ; this is all ought to be done , whether they will hear , or whether they will forbear . but if these be not all the means god has appointed ; then these things are not all that ought to be done . as to the first spreaders of the gospel , it has already been shewn that god appointed other means , besides these , for them to use , to induce men to hear and consider . and though when those extraordinary means ceased , these means which you mention , were the onely means left to the ministers of the gospel ; yet that is no proof that the magistrate , when he became christian , could not lawfully use such means as his station enabled him to use , when they became needful . by what means the gospel at first made it self to be heard , &c. without the assistance of any such force of the magistrate , as i now think needful , we have seen already . but whatever neglect or aversion there is in any , impartially and throughly to instruct the people , i wish it amended , and that the most effectual course may be taken for the amending it , as much as you can do . but i do not see how pertinent your discourse about this matter is , to the present question . for when you have made the best provision you can for the instruction of the people , i fear a great part of them will still need some moderate penalties , to bring them to hear and receive instruction . but this new method of mine , viz. the useing force , not instead of reason and arguments , but onely to bring men to consider those reasons and arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince them , but which , without being forced , they would not consider ; which i say , no body can deny but that indirectly and at a distance , it does some service towards the bringing men to embrace the truth : this new method of mine , ( as you will needs call it , though it be at least as old as st. austin ) you tell me , was never yet thought on by the most refined persecutors . which may be very true , for any thing i know : though i think it hath been both thought on , and made use of too , by all those magistrates , who having made all requisite provision for the instructing their people in the truth , have likewise required them , under convenient penalties , to embrace it . but you say however , it is not altogether unlike the plea made use of to excuse the late barbarous usage of the protestants in f●ance ( designed to extirpate the reform'd religion there ) from being a persecution for religion . for it seems , the french king requires all his subjects to come to mass. which they cannot lawfully do , nor he lawfully require them to do . but you go on : those who do not come to mass , are punish'd with a witness . for what ? not for their religion , say the pleaders for that discipline , but for disobeying the king's laws . whether those pleaders plead in this manner , or not , i know not . but if they do , i am sure their plea is ridiculous , and carries nothing at all of an excuse in it . for if true religion , which is god's law , forbids men to go to mass ; then those laws can be no laws , which require men to go to mass : unless man can make laws against god's laws . and if those laws be no laws , then 't is grosly improper to talk of disobeying them . for where there is no law , there can be no. transgression , or disobedience . nor can any act of obedience to god ( as all acts which true religion requires , are ) be an act of disobedience to any body . now if those laws by which the french king requires his subjects to come to mass , be no laws : and consequently their refusing to come , be not a disobeying his laws : : 't is evident there is nothing left for which the refusers can be said to be punish'd , but onely their religion , which requires them to refuse . but let us see the likeness of my new method to this plea. so , say you , by your rule , the dissenters ( from the true religion , for i speak of no other ) must be punish'd ( or , if you please , subjected to moderate penalties , such as shall make them uneasy , but neither destroy , no● undo them . ) for what ? not for their religion , say you , ( so you tell me , sir. but where , i beseech you , do i say that dissenters from the true religion , are not to be punish'd for their religion ? ) not for following the light of their own reason , not for obeying the dictates of their own consciences . no , sir : but ra●●er for the contrary . for the light of their own reason , and ●he dictates of their own consciences ( if their reason and consciences were not perverted and abused ) would undoubtedly lead them to the same thing , to which the method we speak of , is designe● to bring them . you proceed : for what then are they to be punish'd ? to make them , say you , examine the religion they have embraced , and the religion they have rejected . right , sir : that is indeed the next end for which they are to be punish'd . but what is that to your question ? which , if it be pertinent , demands for what fault , not for what end , they are to be punish'd : as appears even by your next words ; so that they are punish'd , not for having offended against a law ; ( i. e. not for any fault : ) for there is no law of the land that requires them to examine . it seems then the likeness of the two pleas lies in this : the pleaders for the french discipline say that those who refuse to go to mass , are not punish'd for their religion , but for disobeying the king's laws . and you make me say , that dissenters are to be punish'd not for having offended against a law. and were there ever any twinns more like than these two pleas are ? but as if you had forgotten the likeness you talk'd of , you conclude with these words ; and which now is the fairer plea , pray judge . so that the thing i am to judge of at last , is not , how like these pleas are to each other ; but which is the fairer plea of them . now i confess , as you have made my plea for me , i think there is no considerable difference as to the fairness of them , excepting what arises from the different degrees of punishment in the french discipline , and my method . but if the french plea be not true ; and that which you make to be mine , be not mine : to what purpose is it to enquire , which is the fairer of them ? the truth of the matter is this : the french discipline dragoons men , and many ( as you say ) out of their lives , for not coming to mass ( which is no fault , ) to make them come to mass ( which they cannot do wi●hout sin . ) and my method punishes men with punishments which do not deserve to be call'd so , when compared with those of the french discipline , for rejecting the true religion , proposed to them with sufficient evidence ( which certainly is a fault , ) to bring them to consider and examine the evidence with which it is proposed , that so they may embrace it , ( which is both lawful for them , and their duty to do . ) and which of these methods or pleas is the fairer , let all the world judge . whereas you say here , that there is no law of the land that requires men to examine , i think the contrary is plain enough . for where the laws provide sufficient means of instruction in the true religion , and then require all men to embrace that religion ; i think the most natural construction of those laws is , that they require men to embrace it upon instruction and conviction ; as it cannot be expected they should do , without examining the grounds upon which it stands . how pertinent the declamation is , which makes up the rest of this paragraph , appears sufficiently by what has been said , and will appear yet further , before i take leave of you . but that this new sort of discipline may , as you pretend , have all fair play , you come now to enquire at large into several particulars relating to it : as namely , who it is i would have to be pun●sh'd : for what i would have them punish'd : with what sort of penalties , what degree of punishment they should be forced : and how long they are to be punish'd . and here , upon all these heads , you discover , as you imagine , such difficulties and inconsistencies , as are enough to spoil any discipline in the world , and render it just good for nothing . but i hope i have not follow'd you thus close hitherto to no purpose , but am apt to think that i have already abundantly laid open the mistakes and cavils upon which those imaginations are grounded . and therefore having , as i suppose , sufficiently prepared my way , i shall , without more adoe , address my self to manifest the consistency and practicableness of my new method ( as you will have it ) in the way you your self prescibe me , viz. by telling the world plainly and directly , 1. who are to be punish'd . 2. for what . 3. with what punishments . 4. how long . 5. what advantage to true religion it would be , if magistrates every where did so punish . 6. and lastly , whence the magistrate had commission to do so . which when i have done , and by settling these points have framed the parts of my new engine , set it together , and shew'd that it will work , without doing more harm than good in the world , you tell me you think then men may be content to submit to it . onely before i do this , i crave leave to take some notice of one of the conditions you are pleas'd to lay upon me . for you require me to do it , ●ot onely plainly and intelligibly , without keeping in the uncertainty of general expressions ( which is reasonable enough , ) but likewise without supposing all along my church in the right , and my religion the true . now , as to this latter condition , i confess i do not see how you can oblige me to it . for if my church be in the right ; and my religion be the true ; why may i not all along suppose it to be so ? you say this can no more be allow'd to me in this case , whatever my church or religion be , than it can be to a papist or a lutheran , a presbyterian or an anabaptist ; nay no more to me , than it can be allow'd to a iew or a mahometan . no , sir ? not whatever my church , or religion be ? that seems somewhat ha●d . and methinks you might have given us some reason for what you say : for certainly it is not so self-evident as to need no proof . but i think it is no hard matter to guess at your reason , though you did not think fit expressly to own it . for 't is obvious enough that there can be no other reason for this assertion of yours , but either the equal truth , or at least the equal certainty ( or uncertainty ) of all religions . for whoever considers your assertion , must see , that to make it good , you will be obliged to maintain one of these two things : either 1. that no religion is the true religion , in opposition to other religions : which makes all religions true , or all false , and so either way indifferent . or , 2. that though some one religion be the true religion ; yet no man can have any more reason , than another man of another religion may have , to believe his to be the true religion . which makes all religions equally certain ( or uncertain ; whether you please ) and so renders it vain and idle to enquire after the true religion , and onely a piece of good luck if any man be of it , and such good luck as he can never know that he has , till he come into the other world. whether of these two principles you will own , i know not . but certainly one or the other of them lies at the bottom with you , and is the lurking supposition upon which you build all that you say . but as unreasonable as this condition is , i see no need i have to decline it , nor any occasion you had to impose it upon me . for certainly the making what you call my new method , consistent and practicable , does no way oblige me to suppose all along my religion is the true , as you imagine . no , sir ; 't is enough for that purpose , to suppose that there is one true religion , and but one ; and that that religion may be known by those who profess it , to be the onely true religion ; and may also be manifested to be such , by them to others , so far a● least as to oblige them to receive it , and to leave them without excuse if they do not . indeed if either of the two principles but now mention'd , be true , i. e. if all religions be equally true , and so indifferent ; or all be equally certain ( or uncertain : ) then without more adoe , the cause is yours . for then , 't is plain , there can be no reason why any man , in respect to his salvation , should change his religion : and so there can be no room for using any manner of force , to bring men to consider what may reasonably move them to change . but if , on the contrary , there be one true religion , and no more ; and that may be known to be the onely true religion by those who are of it ; and may by them be manifested to others , in such sort as has been said : then 't is altogether as plain , that it may be very reasonable and necessary for some men to change their religion ; and that it may be made appear to them to be so . and then if such men will not consider what is offer'd , to convince them of the reasonableness and necessity of doing it ; it may be very fit and reasonable , for any thing you have said to the contrary , in order to the br●nging them to consideration , to require them under convenient penalties , to forsake their false religions , and to embrace the true . now as these things are all that i need to suppose ; so i shall take leave to suppose them , till you shew good reason why i should not . and now i come to give an account of the particulars mention'd . which i think may be done in a very few words so plainly and intelligibly , upon these supposals as to enable any reader to see , without any more help , to how little purpose you multiply words about these matters . here therefore i am to tell the world , 1. who are to be punish'd . and those , according to the whole tenor of my answer , are no other but such , as having sufficient evidence tender'd them of the true religion , do yet reject it ; whether utterly refusing to consider that evidence , or no● considering it as they ought , viz. with such care and diligence as the matter deserves and requires , and with honest and unbiass'd minds . and what difficulty there is in this , i cannot imagine . for there is nothing more evident , than that those who do so reject the true religion , are culpable , and deserve to be punish'd . and it is easy enough to know when men do so reject the true religion . for that requires no more than that we know that that religion was tender'd to them with sufficient evidence of the truth of it . and that it may be tender'd to men with such evidence ; and that it may be known when it is so tender'd ; these things , you know , i take leave here to suppose . now if the persons i describe , do really deserve to be punish'd ; and may be known to be such as i describe them ; then as they deserve to be punish'd ; so they may be punish'd . which is all that needs be said upon this head , to shew the consistency and practicableness of this method . and what do you any where say against this ? 2. for what . by which i perceive you mean two things . for sometimes you speak of the fault , and sometimes of the end for which men are to be punish'd . ( and sometimes you plainly confound them . ) now if it be enquired , for what fault men are to be punish'd : i answer , for rejecting the true religion , after sufficient evidence tender'd them of the truth of it : which certainly is a fault , and deserves punishment . but if you enquire for what end such as do so reject the true religion , are to be punish'd : i say , to bring them to embrace the true religion ; and in order to that , to bring them to consider , and that carefully and impartially , the evidence which is offer'd , to convince them of the truth of it : which are undeniably just and excellent ends ; and which , through god's blessing , have often been procured , and may yet be procured by convenient penalties , inflicted for that purpose . nor do i know of any thing you say against any part of this , which is not already answer'd . 3. with what punishments . now here having in my answer declared , that i take the severities so often mention'd , ( which either destroy men , or make them miserable ) to be utterly unapt and improper ( for reasons there given ) to bring men to embrace the truth which must save them ; i do not presume to determine ( nor have you shewn any cause why i should ) just how far , within those bounds , that force extends it self , which is really serviceable to that end ; but content my self to say , that so much force , or such penalties as are ordinarily sufficient ●o prevail with men of common discretion , and not desperately perverse and obstinate to weigh matters of religion carefully and impartially ; and without which ordinarily they will not do this ; so much force , or such penalties may fitly and reasonably be used for the promoting true religion in the world , and the salvation of souls . and what just exception this is liable to , i do not understand . for when i speak of men of common discretion , and not desperately perverse and obstinate , i think 't is plain enough , that by common discretion i exclude not idiotes onely , and such as we usually call mad-men , but likewise the desperately perverse and obstinate , who perhaps may well enough deserve that name , though they be not wont to be sent to bedlam . and if the penalties i speak of , be intended for the curing men's unreasonable prejudices and refractariness against the true religion ; then the reason why the desperately perverse and obstinate are not to be regarded in measuring these penalties , is very apparent . for as remedies are not provided for the incurable , so in the preparing and tempering them , regard is to be had onely to those for whom they are designed . perhaps it may be needful here ( to prevent a little cavi● ) to note , that there are degrees of perversness and obstinacy and that men may be perverse and obstinate , without being desperately so : and that therefore some perverse and obstinate persons may be thought curable , though such as are desperately so cannot . ( as there are likewise degrees of carelessness in men of their salvation , as well as of concern for it : so that such as have some co●cern for their salvation , may yet be careless of it to a great degree . and therefore if those who have any concern for their salvation , deserve regard and pity ; then so may some carless persons , though those who have no concern for their salvation , deserve not to be consider'd . which spoils a little harangue you give us , pag. 43. ) and as those med●cines are thought safe and advisable , which do ordinarily cure , though not always ( as none do : ) so those penalties , or punishments , which are ordinarily found sufficient ( as well as necessary ) for the ends for which they are designed , may fitly and reasonably be used for the compassing those ends . now i do not see what more can be required to justify the rule here given . for if you demand that it should express wha● penalties , particularly , are such as it says may fitly and reasonably be used : this , you must give me leave to tell you , is a very unreasonable demand . for what rule is there that expresses the particulars which agree with it ? a rule is intended for a common measure , by which particulars are to be examined ; and therefore must necessarily be general . and those to whom it is given , are supposed to be able to apply it , and to judge of particulars by it . nay it is often seen , that they are better able to do this , than those who give it . and so it is in the present case : the rule here laid down , is that by which i suppose governers and lawgivers ought to examine the penalties they use , for the promoting the true religion , and the salvation of souls . but certainly no man doubts but their prudence and experience enables them to use and apply it be●ter than other men ; and to judge more exactly what penalties do agree with it , and what do not . and therefore i think you must excuse me , if i do not take upon me to teach them , what it becomes me rather to learn from them . 4. how long they are to be punish'd . and of this the account is very easy . for certainly nothing is more reasonable , than that men should be subject to punishment as long as they continue to offend . and as long as men reject the true religion , tender'd them with sufficient evidence of the truth of it , so long , 't is certain , they offend : because it is impossible for any man , innocently to reject the true religion , so tender'd to him . for whoever rejects that religion so tender'd , does either apprehend and perceive th● truth of it , or he does not . if he does ; i know not what greater crime any man can be guilty of . if he does not perceive the truth of it ; there is no account to be given of that , but either that 〈◊〉 shuts his eyes against the evidence which is offer'd him , and will not at all consider it ; or that he does not consider it as he ought , viz. with such care as is requisite , and with a sincere desire to learn the truth : either of which does manifestly involve him in guilt . to sa● here that a man who has the true religion proposed to him with sufficient evidence of its truth , may consider it as he ought , or do his utmost in considering , and yet not perceive the truth of it ; is neither more nor less , than to say , that sufficient evidence is not sufficient evidence . for what does any man mean by sufficient evidence , but such as will certainly win assent , where-ever it is duly consider'd ? 't is plain enough therefore , that as long as men reject the true religion duly proposed to them , so long they offend , and deserve punishment : and therefore it is but just , that so long they should be left liable to it . but because my designe does rather oblige me to consider how long men may need punishment , than how long it may be just to punish them ; therefore i shall add , that as long as men refuse to embrace the true religion , so long penalties are necessary for them , to dispose them to consider and embrace it : and that therefore , as justice allows , so charity requires that they be kept subject to penalties , till they embrace the true religion . thus far you proceed in your enquiry . but you demand that i should also tell the world , 5. what advantage to true religion it would be , if magistrates every where did so punish . where by the magistrates so punishing , if you speak to the purpose , you must mean their punishing men for rejecting the true religion ( so tender'd to them as has been said ) in order to the bringing them to consider , and embrace it . now before we can suppose magistrates every where so to punish , we must suppose the true religion to be every where the national religion . and if this were the case ; i think it is evident enough , what advantage to true religion it would be , if magistrates every where did so punish . for then we might reasonably hope that all false religions would soon vanish , and the true become once more the onely religion in the world : whereas if magistrates s●ould not so punish ; it were much to be fear'd ( especially considering what has already happen'd ) that on the contrary , false religions , and atheism , as more agreeable to the soil , would dayly take deeper root , and propagate themselves , till there were no room left for the true religion ( which is but a foreign plant ) in any corner of the world. 6. and lastly , whence the magistrate had commission to do so . but of this i have spoken already , and need not here repeat what has been said , to shew , that the magistrate receives his commission so to punish as has been express'd , from god , whose minister he is . thus in answer to your demand , i have given a plain account of the particulars you mention . and i shall now leave the world to judge , whether what you call a new sort of discipline , and my new method , be an impracticable chimaera , as you are pleas'd to say it is . and now , having seen and examined , as you say , the main of my treatise , you tell me you think you might here end without going any farther . and so , sir , i think you might , for any thing you have said against the rest of it . but that i may not think my self , or any of my arguments neglected , you promise to go over the remainder . and ●o there is no help for it , but i must wait upon you . but you must excuse me , if i do not here prove over again , that what i make to be the author's fourth proposition , is really his proposition , and that his last proposition is wholly built upon that . you say the business of my next paragraph is to prove , tha● if force be useful , then somebody must certainly have a right to use it : and that the first argument i go about to prove it by , is this , that usefulness is as good an argument to prove there is somewhere a right to use it , as uselessness is to prove no body has such a right : whereas neither is that my proposition , nor this my argument . for my words are these : if there be so great use and necessity of outward force ( duly temper'd and applied ) for the promoting tr●e religion , and the salvation of souls , as i have endeavour'd to shew there is : this is as good an argument to prove that there is somewhere a right to use such force for that purpose , as the utter uselessness of force ( if that could be made out ) would be , to prove that no body has any such right . where every one sees that i do not inferr a right to use force from the usefulness of it barely ( as you make me , ) but from the necessity , as well as usefulness of it . for though the utter uselessness of force ( if ●t could be made out ) would , as i here acknowledge , be a good argument to prove that no body has any right to use it ; yet i never thought that the bare usefulness of it was sufficient to prove that there is a right somewhere to use it . but if force be both useful and necessary ; that , i think , is a good proof of it : and that is the thing i insist upon . you might therefore have spared the pains you have taken to prove that usefulness of punishment cannot give a commission to punish ; or that useful punishment from every hand is not lawful : for i never asserted the contrary . but because some perhaps may think that there is more in the instance you here make use of , than what you intend to prove by it ; it may not be amiss briefly to shew there is not . that instance is this : you say a man may have the stone , and it may be useful ( more than indirectly and at a distance useful ) to him to be cut ; but yet this usefulness will not justify the most skilful chi●urgeon in the world , by force to make him endure the pain and hazard of cutting ; because he has no commission , no right , without the patient 's own consent to do so . nor is it a good argument , cutting will be useful to him ; therefore there is a right somewhere to cut him , whether he will or no. now that this instance does not come up to the point in question between us , is very evident . for 1. it is to be consider'd , that the stone does not always kill , though it be not cured ; but men do often live to a great age with it , and die at last of other distempers . but aversion to the true religion is certainly and inevitably mortal to the soul , i● not cured ; and so of absolute necessity to be cured . and yet if we should suppose the stone as certainly destructive of this temporal life , as that aversion is of men's eternal salvation : even so , the necessity of curing it would be as much less , than the necessity of curing that aversion , as this temporal life falls short in value of that which is eternal . and 2. it may be consider'd , that cutting for the stone is not always necessary , in order to the cure : and that even where it is most so , it is withall hazardous by your own confession , and may kill , as well as cure , and that without any fault of the patient . but the penalties i speak of , as they are altogether necessary ( without extraordinary grace ) to cure that pernicious , and otherwise untractable aversion ; so they can no way endanger or hurt the soul , but by the fault of him that undergoes them . and if these things be true ; if there be no such necessity that persons troubled with the stone should be cured of it , as there is , that such as are possess'd with an aversion to the true religion should be cured of that aversion ; and i● cutting for the stone , be neither so necessary , nor yet so safe a means of curing , as moderate penalties are in the other case : then how reasonable soever you may suppose it , that it should be left to the patient's choice , whether he shall be cut or not ; and how true soever it may be , that the most skilful chirurgeon in the world has no commission , no right , without the patient 's own consent , by force to make him endure the pain and hazard of cutting ; the magistrate may nevertheless have a right to use penalties to cure men of their aversion to the true religion : for 't is plain enough , these things may very well s●and together . this may suffice to shew , how short this instance falls of the case before us . however i shall add , that though , as things now stand , no chirurgeon has any right to cut his calculous patient , without his consent ; yet if the magistrate should by a publick law appoint and authorize a competent number of the most skilful in that art , to visit such as labour under that disease , and to cut those ( whether they consent or not ) whose lives they unanimously judge it impossible to save otherwise : i am apt to think you would find it hard to prove , that in so doing he exceeded the bounds of his power : and i am sure it would be as hard to prove , that those artists would have no right , in that case , to cut s●ch persons . whereas you say in this paragraph , that to justify punishment , it is requisite that it be directly useful for the procuring some greater good , than that which it takes away ; i wish you had told us why it must needs be directly useful for that pupose : or why penalties are not as directly useful for the bringing men to the true religion , as the rod of correction is to drive foolishness from a child , or to work wisdom in him . why force was not necessary for the first 300 years after christ , has already been shewn . and whoever considers the acco●nt which has been given of that matter , will easily see , that unless that which made force needless then ; does still continue ; it may be necessary now , though it was not then . but here you think you put me a very confounding question . if , say you , your supposed usefulness ( and necessity , you should have added ) places a right somewhere to use it , pray tell me in whose hands it places it in turky , persia , or china , or any country where christians of different churches live under a heathen or mahometan sovereign ? but , sir , i answer roundly and plainly , in the hands of the sovereign . what ? ( will you say ) a right in mahometan or pagan princes hands to use force upon christians , for fear ( as you speak ) lest mankind , in those countries , should be unfurnish'd with means for the promoting god's honour and the good of souls ? no , sir : but a right to use convenient penalties for the promoting the true religion ; which i think is the promoting god's honour and the good of souls . if this startle you ; then i must tell you further , that i look upon the supreme power to be the same all the world over , in what hands soever it is placed : and i take this right to be contain'd in it . and if those that have it , do not use it as they ought , but instead of promoting true religion by proper penalties , set themselves to enforce mahometanism , or paganism , or any other false religion : all that can , or that needs be said to that matter is , that god will one day call them to an account for their neglect of their duty , for the dishonour they do to him , and for the souls that perish by their fault . you say , the author having endeavour'd to shew that no body at all , of any rank or condition , had a power to punish , torment , or use any man ill , for matters of religion ; you tell us you do not yet understand why clergy-men are not as capable of such power as other men . which is said with the same ingenuity which you have used in other places . for whoever will but consult the place , must see that the power i speak of , is externally coactive power , in general , and not a power to punish , torment , or use men ill , for matters of religion , as you make it to be . and whether the author did , or did not give me any occasion , in a short parenthesis to declare my dissent from those who think clergy-men incapable of externally coactive power , i think the fortune of europe does not depend upon it . but it seems you wanted an occasion to shew your good will towards the clergy , and so you made your self one . your next paragraph is so gross and palpable a mistake at least , that i can hardly think fit to spend any words about it . in short thus it is . page 18. of my answer i have these words : that commonwealths are instituted for these ends ( viz. for the procuring , preserving and advancing men's civil interests ) no man will deny . but if there be any other ends besides these , attainable by civil society and government ; there is no reason to affirm that these are the onely ends for which they are designed . doubtless commonwealths are instituted for the attaining of all the benefits which political government can yield . and therefore if the spiritual and eternal interests of men may any way be procured or advanced by political government ; the procuring and advancing those interests must in all reason be reckon'd among the ends of civil societies , and so , consequently , fall within the compass of the magistrate's jurisdiction . where i think it is plain enough to any reader , that by ●hose words , doubtless commonwealths are instituted for the attaining of all the benefits which political government can yield , i design to prove , not that there be other ends attainable &c. but that if there be , there is then no reason to affirm that the procuring , preserving and advancing men's civil interests are the onely ends for which commonwealths are designed . and yet you say here , how do you prove there be other ends ? why thus . doubtless commonwealths are instituted for the attaining all the benefits which political government can yield . and least the reader should not take sufficient notice of it , you repeat it again : the question is , say you , whether civil society be instituted onely for civil ends ? you say , no ; and your proof is , because , doubtless it is instituted for other ends. now , sir , i will not say , doubtless , when you wrote this , you were conscious that you misrepresented my argument ; ( though it be very hard to think you were not : ) but all the world will allow me to say , doubtless , if you were conscious , you did what no fair-dealer would have done . though it be very true , that the author offers three considerations to prove that the civil power neither can nor ought in any manner to be extended to the salvation of souls ; yet it may be true also , that he does but beg the question , when he affirms that the the commonwealth is constituted only for the procuring , preserving and advancing the civil interests of the members of it . for certainly this affirmation , and that which he goes about to prove by those considerations , are not the same thing . but you say the author does not beg the question . for that being , whether civil interest be the onely end of civil society , he gives this reason for the negative ; that civil power has nothing to do with the salvation of souls . but , in my opinion , you would have come nearer the truth , if you had said ( just the reverse ) that the question being , whether civil power has any thing to do with the salvation of souls , the author gives this reason for the negative , that civil interest is the onely end of civil society . for the very truth of the matter is this . the question being , whether the magistrate has any right to use any kind of force or penalties , to bring men to the true religion , the author holds the negative , and in order to the proving it , advances this principle , that the commonwealth is constituted onely for the procuring , preserving , and advancing men's civil interests ; or , as you express it , that civil interest is the onely end of civil society . consequently to which he affirms , that civil power has nothing to do with the salvation of souls ; and thence inferrs the point he undertook to prove , viz. that the magistrate has no right to use any kind of force or penalties , to bring men to the true religion , in order to the salvation of their souls . now this i acknowledge to be a very good way of proving the conclusion , if that principle be true : but that i think no man is bound to grant : and i suppose i have shewn sufficient reason why i think so . and therefore because our author assumes that principle , without proving it , i said , and do now again say , that he does but beg the question . 't is true , he offers three considerations afterwards , to prove the same thing which he designed to support by that principle . but what is that to the business ? will it follow from thence , that he does not beg the question , when he takes that for a principle , which his adversaries are as far from granting , as they are from granting the conclusion he intends to establish by it ? this you will never be able to shew . and now , say you , let us examine the truth of your main position , viz. that civil society is instituted for the attaining all the benefits that it may any way yield . but what if this which you call my main position , be no position at all of mine ? that which i say , is , that commonwealths , or civil societies are instituted for the a●taining of all the benefits which political government can yield , or for all the ends which are attainable by civil society and government : ( not , by the civil society , as you make it , where you pretend to set down my words . ) now i suppose there is some difference between civil society , and a civil society or common-wealth . a civil society all men understand to be a collection or multitude of men living together under the same political laws and government . but civil society is nothing else but men's living so together : that is , it is not a civil society , but that which makes a collection of men a civil society . neither do i say , that commonwealths , or civil societies are instituted for the attaining of all the benefits they can yield , ( as you insinuate ; ) which is very improper : for civil societies do onely attain and enjoy the benefits , which civil society or government yields . and accordingly i say they are instituted for the attaining of all the benefits which civil society , or political government can yield . and this i took to be so plain a truth , that i thought it no great boldness to usher it in with a doubtless . and i confess i am still so much of the same mind , that i can hardly believe that any man , who has not a very urgent occasion , will make any question of it . for if what has hitherto been universally acknowledged , be true , viz. that no power is given in vain , but to be used upon occasion ; i think a very little logick may serve a man to draw this conclusion from it , that all societies are instituted for the attaining all the good , or all the benefits they are enabled to attain : because if you except any of those benefits , you will be obliged to admit , that the power of attaining them was given in vain . nor will it follow from hence , that all societies are instituted for one and the same end ( as you imagine it will , ) unless you suppose all societies enabled , by the powers they are endued with , to attain the same end : which i believe no man hitherto did ever affirm . and therefore , notwithstanding this position , there may be still as great a difference as you please , between church and state ; a commonwealth and an army ; or between a family and the east-india company . which several societies , as they are instituted for different ends , so are they likewise furnish'd with different powers , proportionate to their respective ends. to your next paragraph , after what has already been said , i think it may suffice to say as follows . though perhaps the peripatetick philosophy may not be true ; ( and perhaps it is no great matter , if it be not : ) yet the true religion is undoubtedly true . and though perhaps a great many have not time , nor parts to study that philosophy ; ( and perhaps it may be no great matter neither , if they have not : ) yet all that have the true religion duly tender'd them , have time , and all , but idiotes and mad-men , have parts likewise to study it , as much as it is necessary for them to study it . and though perhaps a great many who have studied that philosophy , c●nnot be convinced of the truth of it ; ( which perhaps is no great wonder : ) yet no man ever studied the true religion with such care and diligence as he might and ought to use , and with an honest mind , but he was convinced of the truth of it . and that those who cannot otherwise be brought to do this , should be a little disturb'd and diseas'd to bring them to it , i take to be the interest , not onely of those particular persons who by this means may be brought into the way of salvation , but of the commonwealth likewise , upon these two accounts . 1. because the true religion , which this method propagates , makes good men ; and good men are always the best subjects , or members of a commonweal●h ; not onely as they do more sincerely and zealously promote the publick good , than other men ; but likewise in regard of the favour of god , which they often procur● to the societies of which they are members . and 2. because this care in any commonwealth , of god's honour and men's salvation , entitles it to his special protection and blessing . so that where this method is used , it proves both a spiritual and a civil benefit to the commonwealth . you say i speak very improperly , or rather very mistakenly , if i call such benefits as may any way ( i. e. indirectly , and at a distance , or by accident ) be attain'd by civil , or any other society , the ends for which it is instituted : whereas indeed the mistake lies on your side , ( which i must now again put you in mind of ) in thinking that by indirectly and at a distance , i mean by accident , in your sense ; which i no where gave you any occasion to think . and therefore i can easily admit , that nothing can in reason be reckon'd among the ends of any society , but what may in reason be supposed to be designed by those who enter into it . ( though i see no reason , why the author or institutor of any society , especially of civil society , may not be supposed to design more than those usually do , who enter in●o it . ) but what follows from this ? why , you say , no body can in reason suppose that any one enter'd into civil society for the procuring , securing , or advancing the salvation of his soul ; when he , for that end , needed not the force of civil society . so that it seems , the reason why the procuring , securing , or advancing the salvation of souls , must not be reckon'd among the ends of civil societies , is , because there is no need of the force of civil society for that end : the contrary whereof has , i suppose , already be●n sufficiently made good . but whereas i say , doubtless commonwealths are instituted for the attaining of all the benefits which political government can yield ; and therefore &c. upon the same grounds , say you , thus i reason . doubtless churches are instituted for the attaining of all the benefits which ecclesiastical government can yield : and therefore if the temporal and secular interests of men may any way be procured , or advanced by ecclesiastical politie ; the procuring and advancing those interests must in all reason be reckon'd among the ends of religious societies , and so consequently fall within the compass of churchmen's iurisdiction . well , sir ; i admit the consequence , and do freely own the procuring and advancing the temporal and secular interests of men , to be one of the ends ( an inferiour , or secundary end ) of religious societies , &c. and what do you conclude from thence ? why , the church of rome , you say , has openly made its advantage of secular interests to be procured or advanced , indirectly , and at a distance , and in ordine ad spiritualia ; all ●hich ways ( if i mistake not english ) are comprehended under your any way . but i do not remember that any of the reformed churches have hi●herto directly profess'd it . but there is a time for all things . so that it seems , what the church of rome has openly made its advantage of , i am endeavouring to bring it in at a back-door , to the reformed churches : for that i take to be the thing you would insinuate by these words . but what is it , i beseech you , that the church of rome has openly made its advantage of ? for i confess i do not understand what you mean by secular interests to be procured or advanced indirectly , and at a distance , and in ordine ad spiritualia . that some of the bishops of rome have made their advantage of a power they claim'd , to dispose of all secular matters as they thought fit , even to the deposing of kings and emperours , and the bestowing their dominions on whomsoever they pleas'd ; and that they claim'd this power as belonging to them ( at least as bellarmine minces the matter ) not directly and immediately ( i. e. not for the procuring or advancing men's secular interests ) but onely indirectly and at a distance , viz. in ordine ad spiritualia ; this is very notorious , and cannot be denied . but is there no difference between temporal power and politie , and ecclesiastical politie or government , consisting in the exercise of spiritual power onely ? between temporal power , paramount to all the power of the kings of the earth , and ecclesiastical politie , subject to be many ways limited and regulated by the civil power ? between procuring or advancing spiritual interests by such an infinite temporal power and secular politie , and procuring and advancing men's temporal and secular interests by ecclesiastical politie or government , onely as the civil power shall require , or allow ? had you told us tr●ly and plainly , what it is that the church of rome has openly made its advantage of ; these differences would have been visible to every eye : but then your designe had been spoil'd . but you tell us , there is a time for all things ; and so i perceive there is : for otherwise we had never been troubled with such a spightful piece of impertinence ( not to say , nonsense ) as you have here given us . what you urge from eph. 4. amounts to no more than a negative argument , and so deserves not to be consider'd . and to the rest of that paragraph , i think enough has been said already . you say : commonwealths , or civil societies and governments , if you will believe the judicious mr. hooker , are as st. peter calls them ( 1. pet. 2.13 . ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the contrivance and institution of man , &c. ( 't is well for st. peter , that he has the judicious mr. hooker on his side : for it seems , we should not otherwise have so much reason to believe him . ) and in all societies instituted by man , the ends of them can be no other than what the institutors appointed . but here you may consider , that as st. peter calls ( not commonwealths , or civil societies , as you say , but those who administer the government of them , viz. ) the king , or emperour , and governours sent by him , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which you render the contrivance and institution of man : so st. paul teaches us that the supreme powers are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , order'd , disposed , or set in their places by god : that they are accordingly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the disposition , or ordinance of god : and that they bear the sword , and punish them that do evil , as the ministers of god , i.e. as appointed and commission'd by him so to do : for how they can be his ministers , for that , or any other purpose , without his appointment and commission , is not to be understood . so that , if you will believe the scriptures , the civil powers , or , if you please , civil society and government are so the contrivance and institution of man , as to be withall the ordinance and institution of god. and as to the judicious mr. hooker ( as you justly call him , ) if you would have it thought , that he so referrs civil society and publick government to the contrivance and institution of man , as either to exclude god almighty from having any hand in it , or to leave men to their choice , whether they will live in such society or not , or for what ends they will enter into it : the least that can be said is , that you do very much mistake him . for though he asserts , that all publick regiment arose from deliberate advice , consultation , and composition between men , judging it convenient and behoveful ; there being no impossibility in nature consider'd by it self , but that men might have lived without any publick regiment : and that , as to the kinds of regiment , nature ties not to any one , but leaves the choice as a thing arbitrary : yet he asserts withall expresly , that we are naturally induced to seek communion and fellowship with others ; and that this was the cause of men's uniting themselves at first in politick societies ; and that , the corruption of our nature being presupposed , we may not deny , but that the law of nature does now require of necessity some kind of regiment . by which it appears , that how much soever he allows , in respect of the particular forms of commonwealths , or ki●ds of government , to the choice and contrivance of man ; he derives civil society and government in general , from nature , and the law of nature , and so from god , the author of that law. now if according to the scriptures , and even to the judicious mr. hooker , god is the author and institutor of civil society in general ; then the ends of it , as your self must grant , can be no other than what he has appointed : and all that is left to the choice and contrivance of man , is onely the framing and modelling commonwealths , and the government of them , as prudence shall direct , for the better attaining the ends which he has fix'd and prescribed . you say st. peter shews , in the place you referr to , for what end commonwealths are instituted , viz. for the punishment of evil-doers , and the praise of them that do well . but you say you do not find any where , that it is for the punishment of those who are not in church-communion with the magistrate . nor do i any where say it is . but if rejecting the true religion , or declining the communion of the church of god , be doing evil ; then they that do so , are evil-doers : and then you see what you get by st. peter's words . but you say you are sure the ends of commonwealths , appointed by the institutors of them , could not be their spiritual and e●ernal interests . but why not , if their spiritual and eternal interests may be promoted by political government , as i think i have shewn they may ? why , you say , they cannot stipulate about these one with another , ( which i suppose you explain by the following words ) nor submit this interests to the power of the society , or any sovereign they should set over it . very true , sir : but they can submit to be punish'd in their temporal interests , if they despise or neglect ●●ose greater interests . which is all they need to do . the news you tell us here from the west-indies , of com●onw●alths there , wherein , in tim● of peace , no body has any auth●rity over any of the members of t●●m , is indeed very wonderful and surprizing . for i confess i thou●ht before , that there could be no commonwealth , without government ; nor government , without authority in some body , over those who are to be govern'd . to conclude , my argument , you tell me , has that defect in it , which turns it upon my self : because the procuring , and advancing the spiritual and eternal interests of souls , my way , is not a benefit to the society , but proper to do more harm than good , as you say you have proved already . of which i shall leave the reader to judge , by what has been said to that matter . my saying , that to argue , as the author does , that the civil power neither can nor ought in any manner to be extended to the salvation of souls , because the care of souls is not committed to the civil magistrate , more than to other men , is onely to prove the thing by its self , is undoubtedly true in the sense of the word extended which i there take it in . however , you see i did not insist upon the matter , but was content to let it pass . and if i did not righ●ly apprehend what the author means by that word in that place , i think i may be excused , since you were forced to go eleven pages further to discover it . as to your next paragraph , i think i might now wholly pass it over . i shall onely tell you , that as i have often heard , so i hope i shall always hear of religion establish'd by law. for though the magistrate's authority can add no force or sanction to any religion , whether true or false , nor any thing to the truth or validity of his own , or any religion whatsoever ; yet i think it may do much toward the upholding and preserving the true religion , within his jurisdiction ; and in that respect may properly enough be said to establish it . it remains now , you say , to examine , whether the author's argument will not hold good , even against punishments in my way . and to shew that it will , thus you discourse : if the magistrate's authority be , as you here say , onely to procure all his subjects the means of discovering the way of salvation , and to procure withall , as much as in him lies , that none remain ignorant of it , or refuse to embrace it , either for want of using those means , or by reason of any such prejudices as may render them ineffectual . if this be the magistrates business , in reference to all his subjects ; i desire you , or any man else , to tell me how this can be done , by the application of force onely to a part of them ; unless you will still vainly suppose ignorance , negligence , or prejudice , onely amongst that part which any where differs from the magistrate . but how little to the purpose this request of yours is ▪ will quickly appear . for if the magistrate provides sufficiently for the instruction of all his subjects in the true religion ; and then requires them all , under convenient penalties , to hearken to the teachers and ministers of it , and to profess and exercise it with one accord , under their direction , in publick assemblies : is there any pretense ●o say , that in so doing he applies force onely to a part of his subjects ; when the law is general , and excepts none ? 't is true , the magist●ate inflicts the penalties in that case , onely upon them that break the law. but is that the thing you mean by his applying for●e onely to a part of his subjects ? would you have him punish all , indifferently ? them that obey the law , as well as them that do not ? as to ignorance , negligence and prejudice , i desire you , or any man else , to tell me what better course can be taken to cure them , than that which i have mention'd . for if after all that god's ministers , and the magistrate can do , some will still remain ignorant , negligent , or prejudiced ; i do not take that to be any disparagement to it : for certainly that is a very extraordinary remedy , which infallibly cures all diseas'd persons to whom it is applied . but say you , if you say , as you do , that the magistrate ●as authority to lay such penalties upon those who refuse to embrace ●he doctrine of the proper ministers of religion , and to submit to their spiritual government , as to make them bethink themselves so as not to be alienated from the truth : against that also the author's argument holds , that the magistrate has no such authority . 1. beca●se god never gave the magistrate an authority to be iudge of truth for another man in matters of religion : and so he cannot be iudge whether any man be alienated from the truth or no. 2. because the magistrate had never authority given him to lay any penalties on those who refuse to embrace the doctrine of the proper ministers of his religion ( or of any other ) or to submit to their spiritual government , more than any other men . which latter reason , as far as it respects the true religion ( and i am no farther concern'd in it ) is th● very thing in question between us , and therefore ought not to be offer'd as a reason . but as to the other , i grant that god never gave the magistrate any authority to be iudge of truth for another man , or to prescribe to him what he shall believe ( for that i take to be your meaning ) in any matter whatsoever . but how does it follow from thence , that he cannot be judge whether any man be alienated from the truth , or no ? can no man be judge of that , unless he have authority to be judge of truth for other men , or to prescribe to them what they shall believe ? rectum est index sui , & obliqui . and certainly whoever does but know the truth , may easily judge whether other men be alienated from it , or no. and therefore if the magistrate knows the truth ; though he has no authority to judge of truth for other men ; yet he may be judge whether other men be alienated from the truth , or no ; and so may have authority to lay some penalties upon those whom he sees to be so , to bring them to judge more sincerely for themselves . to shew that the care of souls is not committed to the civil magistrate , any more than to other men , the author endeavours to prove that it is neither committed to him by god , nor by the people . now in my answer , i think i shew that he fails as to both these points ; so that whether we say the care of souls is committed to the magistrate by god , or that it is vested in him by the consent of the people , either of these assertions may be true , for any thing he has said to prove the contrary . particularly , whereas he says , that no such power ( as the care of souls committed to the magistrate implies ) can be vested in the magistrate by the consent of the people , because no man can so far abandon the care of his own salvation , as blindly to leave it to the choice of any other , whether prince or subject , to prescribe to him what faith or worship he shall embrace : to this i answer , that as the power of the magistrate in reference to religion ( or the salvation of souls ) is ordain'd for the bringing men to take such care as they ought of their salvation , that they may not blindly leave it to the choice , neither of any other person , nor yet of their own lusts and passions , to prescribe to them what faith or worship they shall embrace : so if we suppose this power to be vested in the magistrate by the consent of the people ; this will not import their abandoning the care of their salvation , but rather the contrary . and so i proceed to shew that it is every man's interest , in respect of his salvation , that the magistrate should have such a power committed to him . now what exception do you make to this ? why , you say this is a pleasant answer ; and you desire me to consider , 1. whether it be not pleasant that i say the power of the magistrate is ordain'd to bring men to take such care ; and thence inferr , then it is every man's interest to vest such power in the magistrate ? well , sir ; i have consider'd this , but can by no means discern where the pleasantness of it lies . for if the power i speak of , be of such a nature as i have represented it ; it will follow unavoidably , not onely that the people may vest it in the magistrate without abandoning the care of their salvation , or leaving it blindly to the choice of another to prescribe to them what faith or worship they shall embrace ; but likewise , that it is every one's interest ( supposing it in his power ) to vest it in him . but you are pleas'd to assist me in your next words : for , say you , if it be the power of the magistrate , it is his . and what need the people vest it in him ; unless there be need , and it be the best course they can take , to vest a power in the magistrate , which he has already ? so that herein , it seems , lies the pleasantness of what i say . but what a miserable cavil is this ! for cannot i enquire , whence the magistrate receives his power ; without suppo●ing it his , before he receives it ? or cannot i say , that the power of the magistrate is such in the nature of it , that if we suppose it vested in him by the consent of the people , this will not import their abandoning the care of their salvation , but rather the contrary , because it is the interest of the people ( supposing it in their power ) to vest such a power in him : cannot i say this , without implying that the magistrate has this power already , before the people have vested it in him ? what pretense can any man have to affirm this ? especially considering , that my words do so plainly tend , as any man may see , to shew that the power which i claim for the magistrate , does therefore belong to him , because it is vested in him either by god , or by the people : as it may be by either , for any thing the author , or your self have said to the contrary . 2. another pleasant thing which you tell me i here say , is , that the power of the magistrate is to bring men to such a care of their salvation that they may not blindly leave it to the choice of any person , or of their own lusts and passions , to prescribe to them what faith or worship they shall embrace ; and yet that 't is their best course t● vest a power in the magistrate , liable to the same lusts and passions as themselves , to choose for them . but where , i beseech you , do i say , that it is the people's best course to vest a power in the magistrate to choose for them ? that you do not pretend to shew : but instead of it , you say , if they vest a power in the magistrate to punish them when they dissent from his religion , to bring them to act , even against their own inclination , according to reason and sound iudgement ; or to bring them to consider reasons and arguments proper and sufficient to convince them : how far is this from leaving it to the choice of another man to prescribe to them what faith or worship they shall embrace ? which is just nothing to your purpose . for i speak not of the magistrate's religion , but of the true religion , and that proposed with sufficient evidence of the truth of it . and if the people do onely vest a power in the magistrate , to punish them when they reject that religion so proposed , to bring them to act according to reason and sound iudgement , &c. i think that is far enough from leaving it to the choice of another man , to prescribe to them what faith or worship they shall embrace . but it seems you have not done with this yet . for you say you do neither me nor the magistrate injury , when you say that the power i give the magistrate , of punishing men to make them consider reasons and arguments proper and sufficient to convince them , is to convince them of the truth of his religion ( whatever that be ) and to bring them to it . which seems a little strange , and pleasant too . but thus you prove it : for men will never , in his opinion , act according to reason and sound iudgement , till they embrace his religion . and if you have the brow of an honest man , you will not say the magistrate will ever punish you to bring you to consider any other reasons and arguments but such as are proper to convince you of the truth of his religion , and to bring you to that . which ( besides the pleasant talk of such reasons and arguments as are proper and sufficient to convince men of the truth of the magistrate's religion , though it be a false one ) is just as much as to say , it is so , because in the magistrate's opinion it is so ; and because it is not to be expected that he will act against his opinion . as if the magistrate's opinion could change the nature of things , and turn a power to promote the true religion , into a power to promote a false one . no , sir : the magistrate's opinion has no such virtue . it may indeed keep him from exercising the power he has to promote the true religion ; and it may lead him to abuse the pretense of it , to the promoting a false one : but it can neither destroy that power , nor make it any thing but what it is . and therefore whatever the magistrate's opinion be , his power was given him ( as the apostles power was to them ) for edification onely , not for destruction : and it may always be said of him ( what st. paul said of himself ) that he can do nothing against the truth , but for the truth . and therefore if the magistrate punishes me , to bring me to a false religion ; it is not his opinion that will excuse him , when he comes to answer for it to his judge . for certainly men are as accountable for their opinions ( those of them , i mean , which influence their practice ) as they are for their actions . here is therefore no shifting forwards and backwards , as you pretend ; nor any circle , but in your own imagination . for though it be true that i say the magistrate has no power to punish men , to compell them to his religion ; yet i no where say , nor will it follow from any thing i do say , that he has power to compell them to consider reasons and arguments proper to convince them of the truth of his religion . but i do not much wonder that you endeavour to put this upon me . for i think by this time it is pretty plain , that otherwise you would have but little to say : and it is an art very much in use among some sort of learned men , when they cannot confute what an adversary does say , to make him say what he does not ; that they may have something which they can confute . your next paragraph runs high , and charges me with nothing less than prevarication . for whereas , as you tell me , i speak of it here as the most deplorable condition imaginable , that men should be left to themselves , and not be forced to consider and examine the grounds of their religion , and search impartially and diligently after the truth , &c. it seems all the remedy i offer is no more than this , dissenters must be punish'd . upon which thus you insult : can any body that hears you say so , believe you in earnest ; and that want of examination is the thing you would have amended , when want of examination is not the thing you would have punish'd ? — but if in all your treatise you can shew me one place where you say that the ignorant , the careless , the inconsiderate , the negligent in examining , &c. are to be punish'd , i will allow your remedy for a good one . but you have not said any thing like this ; and which is more , i tell you before hand you dare not say it . and whilst you do not , the world has reason to judge , that however want of examination be a general fault , which you with great vehemency have exaggerated ; yet you use it only for a pretense to punish dissenters ; and either distrust your remedy , or else care not to have it generally cured . now here i acknowledge , that though want or neglect of examination be a general fault , yet the method i propose for curing it , does not reach to all that are guilty of it , but is limited to those who reject the true religion , proposed to them with sufficient evidence . but then to let you see how little ground you have to say that i prevaricate in this matter , i shall onely desire you to consider , what it is that the author and my self were enquiring after . for it is not , what course is to be taken to confirm and establish those in the truth , who have already embraced it : nor , how they may be enabled to propagate it to others : ( for both which purposes i have already acknowledged it very useful , and a thing much to be desired , that all such persons should , as far as they are able , search into the grounds upon which their religion stands , and challenges their belief : ) but the subject of our enquiry is onely , what method is to be used , to bring men to the true religion . now if this be the onely thing we were enquiring after , ( as you cannot deny it to be ; ) then every one sees that in speaking to this point , i had nothing to do with any who have already embraced the true religion ; because they are not to be brought to that religion , but onely to be confirm'd and edified in it ; but was onely to consider how those who reject it , may be brought to embrace it . so that how much soever any of those who own the true religion , may be guilty of neglect of examination ; 't is evident , i was onely concern'd to shew how it may be cured in those , who , by reason of it , reject the true religion , duly proposed or tender'd to them . and certainly to confine my self to this , is not to prevaricate , unless to keep within the bounds which the question under debate prescribes me , be to prevaricate . in telling me therefore that i dare not say that the ignorant , the careless , the inconsiderate , the negligent in examining , &c. ( i. e. all that are such ) are to be punish'd , you onely tell me that i dare not be impertinent . and therefore i hope you will excuse me , if i take no notice of the three reasons you offer in your next page , for your saying so . and yet if i had had a mind to talk impertinently ; i know not why i might not have dared to do so , as well as other men . there is one thing more in this paragraph , which though nothing more pertinent than the rest , i shall not wholly pass over . it lies in these words : he that reads your treatise with attention , will be more confirm'd in this opinion ( viz. that i use want of examination onely for a pretense to punish dissenters , &c. ) when he shall find , that you ( who are so earnest to have men punish'd , to bring them to consider and examine , that so they may discover the way of salvation ) have not said one word of considering , searching , and hearkening to the scripture ; which had been as good a rule for a christian to have sent them to , as to reasons and arguments proper to convince them of you know not what , &c. how this confirms that opinion , i do not see ; nor have you thought fit to instruct me . but as to the thing it self , viz. my not saying one word of considering , searching , and hearkening to the scripture , whatever advantage a captious adversary may imagine he has in it , i hope it will not seem strange to any indifferent and judicious person , who shall but consider that throughout my treatise , i speak of the true religion onely in general , i. e. not as limited to any particular dispensation , or to the times of the scriptures ; but as reaching from the fall of adam to the end of the world ; and so comprehending the times which preceeded the scriptures ; wherein yet god left not himself without witness , but furnished mankind with sufficient means of knowing him and his will , in order to their eternal salvation . for i appeal to all men of art , whether , speaking of the true religion under this generality , i could be allowed to descend to any such rules of it , as belong only to some particular times , or dispensations : such as you cannot but acknowledge the old and new testaments to be . you say that , page 26. of my answer , out of abundant kindness , when the dissenters have their heads ( without any cause ) broken , i provide them a plaister . but whoever shall consider the penalties i there speak of , will , i perswade my self , find no heads broken , and so but little need of a plaister . but having said there , that the power i asscribe to the magistrate , is given him to bring men , not to his own , but to the true religion : and , that though ( as our author puts us in mind ) the religion of every prince is orthodox to himself ; yet if this power keep within it's bounds ( i.e. if the penalties the magistrate makes use of to promote a false religion , do not exceed the measure of those which he may warrantably use for the promoting the true , ) it can serve the interest of no other religion but the true , among such as have any concern for their eternal salvation ; ( and they that have none , deserve not to be consider'd ●● ) because the penalties it enables him that has it to inflict , are not such as may tempt such persons either to renounce a religion which they believe to be true , or to profess one which they do not believe to be so ; but onely such as are apt to put them upon a serious and impartial examination of the controversy between the magistrate and them : which is the way for them to come to the knowledge of the truth : i add these words ; and if upon such examination of the matter , they chance to find that the truth does not lie on the magistrate's side ; they have gain'd thus much however , even by the magistrate's misapplying his power , that they know better than they did before , where the truth does lie , &c. ( which is the plaister you speak of . ) now this you tell me is as true as if i should say , upon examination i find such a one is out of the way to york ; therefore i know better than i did before , that i am in the right . where i shall only observe , that if you had put it , therefore i know better than i did before , where the right way does lie , your inference had run exactly parallel with mine . but then it would have been true too ; which was not for your purpose . you say , he that has been punished , may have examined before ; and then , you tell me , i am sure he gains nothing . right , sir. but neither does he lose much , if it be true , which i there add , that all the hurt that befalls him , is , onely the suffering some tolerable inconveniencies , for his following the light of this own reason , and the dictates of his own conscience . but you go on , and say , however , you think you do well to encourage the magistrate in punishing , and comfort the man who has suffer'd unjustly , by shewing what he shall gain by it . whereas , on the contrary , in a discourse of this nature , where the bounds of right and wrong are enquired into , and should be establish'd , the magistrate was to be shew'd the bounds of his authority , and warn'd of the injury he did when he misapplies his power , and punish'd any man who deserv'd it not ; and not be sooth'd into injustice , by consideration of gain that might thence accrue to the sufferer . shall we do evil that good may come of it ? there are a sort of people who are very wary of touching upon the magistrate's duty , and tender of shewing the bounds of his power , and the injustice and ill consequences of his misapplying it ; at least , so long as it is misapplied in favour of them , and their party . as to what you say here of the nature of my discourse , i shall onely put you in mind , that the question there debated is , whether the magistrate has any right or authority to use force for the promoting the true religion . which plainly supposes the unlawfulness and injustice of using force to promote a false religion , as granted on both sides . so that i could no way be obliged to take notice of it in my discourse , but onely as occasion should be offer'd . and whether i have not shew'd the bounds of the magistrate's authority , as far as i was any way obliged to do it , let any indifferent person judge . but to talk here of a sort of people who are very wary of touching upon the magistrate's duty , and tender of shewing the bounds of his power , where i tell the magistrate that the power i asscribe to him in reference to religion , is given him to bring men , not to his own , but to the true religion ; and that he misapplies it , when he endeavours to promote a false religion by it , is , methinks , at least a little unseasonable . nor am i any more concern'd in what you say of the magistrate's misapplying his power in favour of a party . for as you have not yet proved that his applying his power to the promoting the true religion ( which is all that i contend for ) is misapplying it ; so much less can you prove it to be misapplying it in favour of a party . but that i encourage the magistrate in punishing men to bring them to a false religion ( for that is the punishing we here speak of ) and sooth him into injustice , by shewing what those who suffer unjustly shall gain by it , when in the very same breath i tell him that by so punishing he misapplies his power , is a discovery which i believe none but your self could have made . when i say that the magistrate misapplies his power by so punishing ; i suppose all other men understand me to say , that he sins in doing it , and layes himself open to divine vengeance by it . and can he be encouraged to this , by hearing what others may gain by what ( without repentance ) must cost him so dear ? 't is true indeed , the apostate emperour ( who yet , by the way , was for toleration , and talk'd much of his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) pretended to take encouragement from some of the promises of the gospel , to spoil and impoverish christians , in consideration of what they would gain by it . but every one sees that this was no more than pretense and mockery , in one who believed nothing of those promises , but only intended to ridicule and expose them . but had he believed the promises made to christians , he would have believed the threats likewise which the gospel denounces against their persecutors . and can any man think he would have been so mad , as to deprive them of their goods and possessions , that they might gain the kingdome of heaven , when he knew that he should himself get nothing in the end but damnation by it ? but you say , and you undertake to prove , that this mischief ( viz. the magistrate's misapplying his power ) upon my principle , joyn'd to the natural thirst in man after arbitrary power , may be carried to all manner of exorbitancy , with some pretense of right . well , sir ; though i do not think my self bound to take notice of all that may be done with some pretense of right ; yet , however , let us see how you go about to prove this . thus , say you , stands your system . if force , i. e. punishment , may be any way useful for the promoting the salvation of souls , there is a right somewhere to use it . and this rights is in the magistrate . who then , upon your grounds , may quickly find reason where it s●its his inclination , or serves his turn , to punish men directly to bring them to his religion . for if he may use force , because it may be , indirectly , and at a distance , any way , useful towards the salvation of souls , towards the procuring any degree of glory ; why may he not , by the same rule , use it where it may be useful , at least indirectly , and at a distance , towards the procuring a greater degree of glory ? for st. paul assures us , that the afflictions of this life work for us a far more exceeding weight of glory . so that why should they not be punish'd , if in the wrong , to bring them into the right way ; if in the right , to make them by their sufferings gainers of a far more exceeding weight of glory ? but as prettily as this looks , i fear , if it be examined , it will not be found sufficient to prove even that little which you pretend to prove by it . for , first , you must give me leave to ask you once more , where i say , if force may be any way useful for the promoting the salvation of souls , there is a right somewhere to use it ? for in the page you referr to , the words are if there be so great use and necessity of outward force for the promoting true religion , and the salvation of souls , &c. nor do i any where speak otherwise , that i know . but , secondly , let it be supposed if you please , that i say what you so often tell me i do , though i do not : yet even so , unless it be as necessary for men to attain any greater degree of glory , as it is to attain glory , it will not follow , that if the magistrate may use force , because it may be indirectly , &c. useful towards the procuring any degree of glory , he may by the same rule , use it where it may be in that manner useful towards the procuring a greater degree of glory . but that there is the same necessity of men's attaining a greater degree of glory , as there is of their attaining glory , no man will affirm . for without attaining glory , they cannot escape the damnation of hell : which yet they may escape , without attaining any greater degree of glory . so that the attaining glory , is absolutely necessary : but the attaining any greater degree of it , however desirable , it is not so necessary . now if there be not the same necessity of the one of these , as there is of the other ; there can be no pretense to say , that whatever is lawful in respect to the one of them , is likewise so in respect to the other . and therefore thought st. paul assures us that the afflictions of this life work for us a far more exceeding weight of glory ; it will not follow from thence , even by the rule which you make for me , but is not mine , that if men be in the right way , they may be punish'd to make them by their sufferings gainers of a far more exceeding weight of glory . so that your some pretense of right , which was all that in modesty you could undertake to prove , comes at last to just none at all . but how unfortunate was i , to talk of the magistrate's misapplying his power , when he punishes those who have the right on their side ! for by granting that , it seems i grant all that the author contends for , and so give up the cause i undertook to defend . so you tell me , sir : and thus you think you prove what you say . for , say you , if the magistrate misapplies , or makes a wrong use of his power , when he punishes in matters of religion any one who is in the right , though it be but to make him consider ; he also misapplies his power , when he punishes any one , whomsoever in matters of religion , to make him consider . which is certainly as wonderful a collection as any you make in your whole letter : as any man may see , that will but compare the magistrate's punishing in matters of religion any one who is in the right to make him consider , with his punishing any one whomsoever ( i. e. any one who is in the wrong ) in matters of religion , to make him consider . for , first , to punish one who is in the right , is to punish one who does not deserve to be punish'd ; which is manifestly unjust , whatever the end be for which he is punish'd . but to punish one who is in the wrong , and refuses to consider what may convince him of the right , ( and such onely are the persons whom i would have punish'd , ) is onely to punish one who well deserves to be punish'd ▪ which no man can pretend to be unjust . again ; to punish one who is in the right , to make him consider what may shew him the right , and move him to embrace it ( which is the thing we mean here by considering , ) is vain and ridiculous ; because he does already discern and embrace the right , and therefore needs not be made consider , to bring him to embrace it . but to punish one who is in the wrong , and can by no othe● means be prevail'd upon to consider what may manifest the righ● to him ; i say , to punish such a one to make him consider , is bu● reasonable and necessary ; because it is necessary for him to consider , and punishment is necessary to bring him to consider . now if these cases are so widely different : if in the first o● them , the magistrate punishes where there is neither any desert , nor any need , or use of punishment , but in the other , he punishes where punishment is both deserv'd , and necessary to be inflicted : is there any imaginable ground to say , that if the magistrate misapplies , or makes a wrong use of his power , in the first case , he does so likewise in the other ? yes , you think there is . for , say you , every one is here iudge for himself , what is right ; and in matters of faith , and religious worship , another cannot judge for him . so that to punish any one in matters of religion , though it be but to make him consider , is by your 〈◊〉 confession , beyond the magistrate's power . and that punishing in matters of religion is beyond the magistrate's power , is ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) what the author contends for . which demostration of yours ; if i may have leave to put it into from , stands thus : whoever takes upon him to judge for another , what is right in matters of religion , takes upon him to do what no man can do . but whoever punishes any man in matters of religion , to make him consider , takes upon him to judge for another , what is right in matters of religion . therefore whoever punishes any one in matters of religion , to make him consider , takes upon him to do what no man can do : and consequently misapplies his power of punishing , if he has that power . where if the second proposition were as evidently true , as the first is ; i should readily admit the conclusion , as sufficiently demonstrated . but if that proposition be so far from being evidently true , that , on the contrary , it is certainly false , and plainly involves a contradiction in it ; then you must give me some better proof of the conclusion , before i shall be obliged to assent to it . now ( a little to examine that proposition ; ) why , i beseech you , does any one punish another to make him consider ? is it not , that that other may judge for himself , of what he is required to consider ? for as he that will judge of any matter , must first consider it ; ( according to that old rule , si judicas , cognosce : ) so i know no use there is of considering , but in order to judging . and can he who punishes another to make him consider , that he may judge for himself of the matter to be consider'd , intend to judge for him , whom he punishes to make him judge for himself ? if this be manifestly contradictious and impossible , ( as it must be acknowledged to be ; ) then every one sees that it is so far from being evidently true , that whoever punishes any one in matters of religion , to make him consider , takes upon him to judge for another what is right in matters of religion , that it is repugnant and absurd to say , that any man , who punishes another to make him consider , does at the same time take upon him to judge for that person , in any matter whatsoever . thus you see with how little reason you say , that by granting that the magistrate misapplies his power , when he punishes those who have the right on their side , i grant all that the author contends for . indeed if i had said that the magistrate does therefore , in that case , misapply his power , because whoever punishes any one in matters of religion to make him consider , takes upon him to judge for him what is right , in matters of religion ; you had had some ground for what you say . but that is no reason of mine , but a● assumption , or supposition of yours ; and a very bad one too , as i hope has been sufficiently shewn . my following words ( which are the last you take notice of ) are these : — and all the hurt that comes to them by it , is onely the suffering some tolerable inconveniencies for their following the light of their own reason , and the dictates of their own consciences : which certainly is no such mischief to mankind a● to make it more eligible that there should be no such powe● vested in the magistrate , but the care of every man's soul should be left to himself alone ( as this author demands it should be : ) that is , that every man should be suffer'd quietly , and withou● the least molestation , either to take no care at all of his soul , i● he be so pleas'd ; or , in doing it , to follow his own groundless prejudices , or unaccountable humour , or any crafty seducer whom he may think fit to take for his guide . which words you set down at large : but instead of contradicting them , or offering to shew that the mischief spoken of , is such as makes it more eligible &c you onely demand , why should not the care of every man's soul be left to himself , rather than the magistrate● is the magistrate like to be more concern'd for it ? is the magistrate like to take more care of it ? &c. as if not to leave the care of every man's soul to himself alone , were , as you express it afterwards , to take the care of men's souls from themselves : or as if to vest a power in the magistrate , to procure as much as in him lies ( i.e. as far as it can be procured by convenient penalties ) that men take such care of their souls as they ought to do , were to leave the care of their souls to the magistrate , rather than to themselves : which no man but your self will imagine . i acknowledge as freely as you can do , that as every man is more concern'd than any man else can be , so he is likewise more obliged , to take care of his soul ; and that no man can by any means be discharged of the care of his soul ; which , when all is done , will never be saved but by his own care of it . but do i contradict any thing of this , when i say , that the care of every man's soul ought not to be left to himself alone ? or , that it is the interest of mankind , that the magistrate be entrusted and obliged to take care , as far as lies in him , that no man neglect his own soul ? i thought , i confess that every man was in some sort charged with the care of his neigbour's soul. but in your way of reasoning , he that affirms this , takes away the care of every man's soul from himself , and leaves it to his neighbour , rather than to himself . but if this be plainly absurd ; as every one sees it is ; then so it must be likewise , to say , that he that vests such a power as we here speak of in the magistrate , takes away the care of mens souls from themselves , and places it in the magistrate , rather than in themselves . what trifling then is it , to say here , if you cannot lay your hand upon your heart , and say all this ( viz. that the magistrate is like to be more concern'd for other men's souls , than themselves , &c. ) what then will be got by the change ? for 't is plain , here is no such change as you would insinuate ; but the care of souls which i assert to the magistrate , is so far from discharging any man of the care of his own soul , or lessening his obligation to it , that it serves to no other purpose in the world , but to bring men , who otherwise would not , to consider and do what the interest of their souls obliges them to . 't is therefore manifest , that the thing here to be consider'd , is not , whether the magistrate be like to be more concern'd for other men's souls , or to take more care of them , than themselves : nor , whether he be commonly more careful of his own soul , than other men are of theirs : nor , whether he be less exposed , in matters of religion , to prejudices , humours , and crafty seducers , then other men : nor yet , whether he be not more in danger to be in the wrong , than other men , in regard that he never meets with the great and onely antidote of mine ( as you call it ) against err●r which i here call molestation . but the point upon which this matter turns , is onely this , whether the salvation of souls , be not better provided for , if the magistrate be obliged to procure , as much as in him lies , that every man take such care as he ought of his soul , than if he be not so obliged , but the care of every man's soul be left to himself alone : which certainly any man of common sense may easily determine . for as you will not , i suppose , deny , but god has more amply provided for the salvation of your own soul , by obliging your neighbour , as well as your self , to take care of it ; though 't is possible your neighbour may not be more concern'd for it , than your self ; or may not be more careful of his own soul , than you are of yours ; or may be no less exposed , in matters of religion , to prejudices , &c. than you are ; because if you are your self wanting to your own soul , it is more likely that you will be brought to take care of it , if your neighbour be obliged to admonish and exhort you to it , than if he be not ; though it may fall out that he will not do what he is obliged to do in that case : so i think it cannot be denied , but the salvation of all men's souls is better provided for , if besides the obligation which every man has to take care of his own soul ( and that which every man's neighbour has likewise to do it ) the magistrate also be entrusted and obliged to see that no man neglect his soul , then it would be , if every man were left to himself in this matter : because though we should admit that the magistrate is not like to be , or is not ordinarily , more concern'd for other men's souls , than they themselves are , &c. it is nevertheless undeniably true still , that whoever neglects his soul , is more likely to be brought to take care of it , if the magistrate be obliged to do what lies in him to bring him to do it , than if he be not . which is enough to shew , that it is every man's true interest , that the care of his soul should not be left to himself alone , but that the magistrate should be so far entrusted with it as i contend that he is . having thus , sir , as i think , consider'd all that is material in your letter , and a great deal more ; i now referr it ( if i may use your words ) to your self , as well as to the judgement of the world , whether the author of the letter , and your self , in saying no body has a right ; or i , in saying the magistrate has a right to use some degrees of force in matters of religion , have most reason . if you think the advantage lies on your side , and shall do me the favour to let me know why you think so ; i shall consider what you say , with all the care i can use , and with a mind as well d●sposed to receive information , as your self can wish . and if upon such a consideration of what is offer'd , i find my self in an error ; i shall freely acknowledge my conviction with all thankfulness ; nor shall i be ashamed even publickly to retract my error . but if instead of satisfactory reason , i meet with nothing but sophistry , and unfair dealing ; i am apt to think i shall content my self with what i have already said : being now sufficiently sensible , that cavils and impertinencies are endless , when a man of parts shall not disdain to make use of them . as to the request you leave with me , that if ever i should write again about the means of bringing souls to salvation , i would take care not to prejudice so good a cause by ordering it so , as to make it look as if i writ for a party ; i do not see what need there was of i● ; having given you no occasion , that i know , to think or suspect , that in answering the author's argument , i writ for any party , but god , and the souls of men : a party , which i hope i shall never desert . indeed if i had misrepresented the author of the letter , and imposed upon him things which he never said ; if i had industriously set my self to make faults where there were none ; or had pretended to confute my adversary by what i could not but know to be false , or nothing to the purpose : in short , if i had dealt with that author , as i think it appears by this time his defender has dealt with me ; then , i confess , you might well have suspected that i writ for some other party . but if there be nothing of all this in my answer , nor any thing unbecoming a man of candour and sincerity ; as you have not yet been able to shew that there is : then your suggestion is altogether groundless , and uncharitable . what party you writ for , when you writ your letter , i will not take upon me to say . but i think i have too much occasion to leave this request with you ; that if ever you write again about the subject of our debate , you would take care to make it look , as if you believed what you writ to be both pertinent and true . and then , as there will be less ground to suspect that you write for another party : so there will be this further advantage by it , that a great deal less paper will serve your turn . sir , i am your most humble servant . feb. 21 1691. notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a55926-e270 p. 1. a. p. 12 , 13 , 14. p. 6. p. 1. p. 2. a. p. 1. iob. 17.9 , 15 , 20 , &c. rom. 1.20 . isai. 44.18 , 19 , 20. and 46.8 . iob. 17.20 , 21. a. p. 4. a. p. 2. p. 2. a. p. 2. p. 2 , 3. p. 3. p. 3. p. 3. p. 3. p. 3. p. 4. p. 4. p. 4. p. 4. l. p. 9.23 , 24. p. 35. p. 4. p. 4 , 5. a. p. 2. see mr. edwards 's gangroena . p. 5. a. p. 3. p. ● . l. p. 8. p. 6. a. p. 24 , 25 , 26. p. 6. p. 7. p. 7. a. p. 5. p. 7. p. 7. a. ● . 10 , 11 , 12 , 15 , 16. p. 8. p. 7. p. 8. a. p. 13.14 . p. 8 , 9. p. 9 , 10. p. 10. l. p. 3. p. 10. p. 10 , 11. a. p. 23. a. p. 5. p. 11. p. 12. p. ●2● a. p. 5. p. 12. p. 13. p. 13. p. 13. 2. th●s . 2.10 , 11 , 12. p. 14. l. p. 8. a. p. 5. p. 14 p. 14 , 15. p. 15. p. 15. p. 15 , 16. p. 16. p. 17. p. 17. a. p. 6. p. 17. p. 18. p. 18. iob 31.26 , 27 , 28. p. 18. p. 19. a p. 1● . p. 17. p. 19. vid. grot. ad m●rci cap. 4. com . 24. p. 19. luke 12.14 . mat. 10.8 . vers. 15. vid. hen. dodw●ll● dissertat . in irenaú , diss. 2. p. 19. a. p. 10. p. ●0 . p 2● , ●1 . acts 4.13 . p. 21. iam. 1.20 . a. p. 10. vid. m●t. 13.14 , 15. & act. 28.25 , 26 , 27. p. 21 , 22. a. p. 11. p. 22. p. 23. p. 24. a. p. 5. vid. ●ug . ●pist . 4● . & 50. p. 10. p. 25. p. 45. p. 46. a. ● . 14 . p. 41. p. 42. a. p. 26. p. 40. p. 4● , 44. p. 46. p. 46. p. 46. p. 46. a. p. 15. p. 47. prov. 22.15 . — 29.15 . p. 47 , 48. p. 48. p. 48 , 49. a. p. 17. p. 50. p. 50. p. 51. l. ● . 6 . l. p. 6 , 7. p. 51. a. p. ●● . p. 50. p. 51 , 52. p. 52 , 53. a. p. 1● . p. 53. p. ●4 . p. 54. rom. 13.1 . vers. 2. vers. 4. eccl. pol. lib. 1. ● . 10 . p. 55. a. p. 19. l. p. 7. p. 56. p. 56 , 57. p. 57 , 58. a. p. 21. p. 58 , 59. a. p. 20 , 21. l. p. 7. a p. 21 , 22. p. 5● p. 60. p. ●0 . p. 60 , 61 : p. 61. p. 64. p. 64. p. 64 , 65. julianus imp. epist. 43. edit . petav. p. 65. p. 66. a. p. 26 , 27. p. 67. p. 67. p. 68. the modern pleas for comprehension, toleration, and the taking away the obligation to the renouncing of the covenant considered and discussed. tomkins, thomas, 1637?-1675. 1675 approx. 281 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 135 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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2003-05 rina kor text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-06 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the modern pleas for comprehension , toleration , and the taking away the obligation to the renouncing of the covenant , considered and discussed . london , printed for r. royston , bookseller to his most sacred majesty . mdclxxv . a scheme of the contents . how little cause our dissenters have , either for separation or alteration pag. 1 , 4. an account of the design of a book entituled , of the religion of england p. 4 the design of it inconsistent and unpracticable p. 7 , 9 the terms of communion , which the church of england imposeth , are not sinful in the opinion of the most learned among the dissenters p. 11 there is no sinfulness objected by them as to the 1. articles p. 15 2. liturgy p. 17 3. canons or ceremonies p. 23 it is no sufficient objection against our ceremonies , that they are not by god commanded p. 25 nor , that they are significant p. 26 nor , that they grieve a pievish sort of men p. 29 there is no sinfulness , in that the church imposeth new bonds and terms of communion p. 36 of the assent and consent ibid. of renouncing the covenant p. 40 certain articles of the covenant , that make it dangerous not to be renounced p. 41 artic. 1. p. 42 artic. 2. p. 45 artic. 3. p. 48 artic. 4. p. 56 artic. 5. p. 59 artic. 6. p. 61 of the conclusion of it p. 63 an instance in a known presbyterian who did renounce publickly the covenant , as to the most meritorious part of it , voluntarily , long before the kings restauration p. 69 how it comes to pass , that the presbyterians and other dissenters , whose opinions and pleas are mutually so inconsistent , do agree in their clamours for liberty of conscience p. 72 they themselves cannot agree , what liberty of conscience is , and what are its true bounds p. 74 of comprehension , and how little will be gained by granting it p. 77 of unlimited toleration p. 78 the dissenters own testimony against toleration p. 81 of comprehension without toleration p. 92 , 135 what the presbyterians ought to do before they be admitted into the church by comprehension p. 94 , 140 , 178 what shall be done with the private mans conscience , when it is inconsistent with that which the conscience of the governour dictates , whether of the two shall over-rule p. 98 religion hath very great influence upon the peace of any government . 101 magistrates , not alone in point of interest but conscience , are to have great care of religion . p. 102 objections and authorities against this , answered . p. 105 of the use of force in propagating religion . p. 107 of that text , 2 cor. 10. the weapons of our warfate are not carnal . ibid. that objection , force may not be used in pulling down antichrist , therefore not in propagating religion , retorted . p. 109 of the argument drawn from the example of the kings of israel or judah . p. 112 testimonies out of scripture for the magistrates authority in using force for the propagating religion . p. 104 , 105 the apostles when they were brought to to answer before the governours of that time , did not deny their authority . p. 118 universal toleration contrary to scripture . p. 121 the magistrate by becoming christian , if he hath no addition , hath yet no diminution of his power . p. 131 of that smalness of difference , that is pretended between us and the presbyterians . p. 136 a comparison between the severities used now against the covenant , and those used by them in imposing it p. 142 how far they approve of episcopacy and liturgy p. 144 the inconveniencies that attend liberty of conscience p. 146 how much toleration is better than comprehension p. 149 conscience absolutely taken , no safe rule either of actions or tenets . p. 152 of the mischiefs liberty of conscience is like to bring to religion p. 153 of new light p. 159 government p. 162 by what means this liberty is dangerous to government p. 166 the private consciences of men are not ordinarily trusted in their common dealings p. 169 what ends they propose to themselves , that promote liberty of conscience p. 177 their unwillingness to renounce the covenant , shews how little they repent of it p. 180 objections answered p. 183 taken from their 1. number ibid. 2. merit p. 189 3. assistance against popery p. 190 4. their hindering trade p. 196 5. france & holland have good experience of it . p. 218 6. civil penalties in religion , make men hypocrites p. 232 an apostrophe to the dissenting brethren p. 235 a postscript p. 247 errata . page 71. line 25. for what may the meaning , r. what may be the meaning , p. 120. l. 14. for into his , r. in this . considerations concerning comprehension , toleration , and the renouncing the covenant . he who endeavours to make any alteration in a setled government either of church or state , is obliged by all the rules of justice and of prudence to alledge some very good cause , why it is that he doth do so ; alteration being in it self so great an inconvenience , as that it ought not by any means to be attempted , but for some weighty reason . now as to the church , as it is by law established ( not withstanding all the fearful outcries which of late have been made against it ) i would fain have any of our dissenting brethren to answer directly , whether there be any one thing sinful in her communion , or only some things ( as they conceive ) inexpedient ? if only inexpedient ( as there is good cause to believe , that the most considerable persons , and those in no small numbers among them , do suppose no more ) then i would fain know , whether inexpediency alone is a sufficient and just cause of separation ? and how well soever any particular man among them may think of the grounds of his own separation ; there is very good evidence , that there are abundance among themselves who do plainly perceive , and much lament it , that by the means of this present separation , there hath been an entrance made for such doctrines and practices into this nation , which are chargeable with ( to phrase it modestly ) the very highest degrees of inexpediency . when the rule and measures of inexpediency are well considered of , and regard is had to that great variety of respects in which one and the same thing may be both expedient and inexpedient ; it will then be found , that inexpediency is a thing , which private persons cannot easily determine , indeed are no competent judges of : besides if it were a clear case , that in the present settlement there were something not altogether so expedient as were to be wished : is this a sufficient warrant for any not only to mislike so much of the law as they think capable of being mended , but withall openly and avowedly to separate , to unite and joyn in great combinations against the publick constitutions , only because they are not arrived , in their esteem , at all possible degrees of perfection ? he who can submit to no law but such a one as is exactly made to his own mind in all particulars , must resolve , for any thing i know , never to obey , as long as he lives , any law which is not of his own making ; and not only so , but he will find that he must not obey many laws of his own making for any long time neither : if therefore a supposed inexpediency be the utmost of the charge , as i suppose in the end it will appear to be , then all wise men should consider with themselves , whether any fancied alteration can be secure from equal , if not greater dangers ? and before that any such alteration be made , it seems to be but just and equal that the new model be agreed upon by those who do design it , and that it be proposed either to our governours , or to the publick view , that it may be examined , before admitted ; and seeing that it is to be of lasting consequence , it is to be hoped that it will not be too hastily concluded upon . a late ingenious person set forth an handsome discourse upon this argument , entituled , of the religion of england , asserting , that reformed christianity setled in its due latitude is the stability and advancement of this kingdom . wherein he hath attempted something like a model of a future settlement ; his discourse is plausible , and desires seem to be bent on peace , and many of his principles look as if they did seem to tend much that way , but there seems to be this one thing very observable in his whole way of writing , that with great art he doth very dexterously take care not to come too close up to the argument , and he brings his reader even to the very point where the business lies , and almost unperceivably steals by and passeth on to something else ; and to a narrow view it will appear plainly , that he keeps himself within the compass of such wide generalities , that he leaves the reader in the same uncertainties in which he found him . the draught of his design is to be seen , sect. 14. pag. 28. which doth consist in these three contrivances . first , that there is to be an established and approved order : but , because that this alone he finds not to be sufficient ; therefore in the second place , there is to be a provision for a sort of men who cannot come within the establishment , and they are to be tolerated under certain restrictions : nor is this all ; for neither the establishment alone is sufficient , neither will a toleration of dissenters from it suffice ; and therefore in the third place , there are another sort of men , who must be only connived at . each of these particulars are afterwards considered : the establishment hath the honour of the first place , and hath , as it well deserves , incomparably the greatest part of the pains bestowed upon it , and of this he tells us , sect. 15. that it must not be loose and in●●herent , but well compacted , that it may attain the ends of discipline , which are to promote sound doctrine and godly life , and keep out idolatry , superstition , and all wicked errour and practice that tends to the vanquishing of the power of christianity : now these things do not require a constitution of narrower bounds than things necessary to christian faith and life , and godly order in the church , now is it not very plain , that such a comprehension as is here described , that it shall be enabled to attain all these great and publick ends here provided for , hath left no place for toleration or connivance ? and accordingly both those things are hudled together , and in a very few words dispatched , sect. 18. pag. 38. i shall lay them down and leave the reader to judge upon them : as for others that are of sound belief and good life , yet have taken in some principles less congruous to national settlement , i would never be a means of exposing them to oppression , contempt and hatred , but would admit their plea as far as it will go , &c. nevertheless , their liberty pleaded for is not to be inordinate but measured and limited by the safety of true religion in general , and of the publick and established order , &c. and now i shall take leave to desire those persons , who cannot come within the comprehension , to consider with themselves , how very little they are beholding to this their advocate ; he hath not in the least intimated to us what kind of principles those are which he would have connived at , as being only less congruous to a national settlement ; nor given us any manner of mark whereby to know them : besides , whatever favour he doth intend for these dissenting brethren , he hath so clogged it with many qualifications and limitations , that he hath rendred it so plainly useless , that i much doubt whether he did ever really intend them any favour at all . first , they must be of sound belief and good life , secondly , their plea must be admitted as far as it will go ; now how far that is he hath not told us : thirdly , their liberty must not be inordinate , but must have two measures ; first , the safety of religion in general : secondly , the safety of the publick established order . upon these terms , and upon the whole matter , i think , that it is no easier a thing to understand the nature and bounds of that settlement which our author is here designing , by the placing of several sorts of men in the three ranks of , first , an establishment ; secondly , a toleration ; and thirdly , a connivance , with this reason , for the two latter ; for if god hath received them , why should their fellow-servants reject or afflict them causlesly ? every true christian should be tender of all that love the lord iesus in sincerity ; i understand , i say , as little by all this , what those particulars are which he would have from us , as if he had contented himself with mr. sterry's three forms of believers ; and methinks the one harangue is as edifying and intelligible as the other : let us receive one another into the glory of god , as christ receiveth us , though that cloathing of the outward form be not on the same fashion in all , nor on some so well shaped as on others , to the proportion of the body , which is christ. the lord iesus hath his concubines , his queens , his virgins ; saints in remoter jorms , saints in higher forms , saints unmarried to any form , who keep themselves single for the immediate embraces of their love , in his epistle before england's deliverance from the northern presbytery . now in these two gentlemen of very differing dispensations , there are three sorts of people proposed to our care , and it is not unlikely that they may be suited each to one another : but this one thing is remarkable in that discourse of mr. sterry , that the presbyterians can , at the very best , hope for no higher rank than that of christ's concubines , as being according to the tenor of that sermon , if at all saints , at the very best , saints in the remoter forms . the more moderate sort of independents may indeed by him be accounted queens , as being saints in higher forms , but for christ's virgins , who are unmarried to any form , and keep themselves single for the immediate embraces of their love ; i cannot imagine who these should be , unless those saints who are above ordinances : and for my own part , i must freely profess , that for all the account which our author hath given us of his three contrivances of comprehension , toleration and connivance , i cannot at all perceive but that mr. sterry's way of sorting out the several ranks of saints , doth well suit with , and is proportioned to it : and here let any sober man judge , whether the settlement pretended for in the first of these three proposals be not absolutely unsetled again in the two other . but in the next place i must go on to consider a pretence , much oftner supposed than owned , and that is this ; suppose that the terms of the communion of the church are not only inexpedient , but really sinful ; if so , then i shall readily grant , that the church ought not to be communicated with , while the terms of her communion are such . but in this part of the argument i shall presume to say with some confidence , and i hope without offence , that however the teachers of the separated congregations may sometimes slily insinuate some such jealousies into the heads of their unwary hearers ; yet it is not easie to find a considerable man amongthem , who will not be ashamed to own it publickly , or who doth himself really believe it . now though this assertion may seem to carry something of uncharitableness in it ; because that the separation from the church is so avowed and pressed upon the people , as if that it were highly necessary , and that communion with the church was highly criminal ▪ at least in the opinion of the teachers . it being a plain case that the people are wheedled into separation , upon the account that they suppose their teachers know it to be unlawful : now as to this , i must needs say , it is shrewdly to be suspected , that there is in this case a very great cheat imposed by the preachers and the people upon one another , and by both upon the whole nation ; because that it is as often evident as there is occasion for making it so , that among the pastors and the flock there are not many , who in a time of tryal approve themselves to be in good earnest ; i have been credibly informed ( not to say that i am able to make it good ) that mr. calamy did before his majesty , and divers lords of the council profess , that there was not any thing in the constitutions of the church to which he could not conform , were it not for the scandalizing of others ; so that in his esteem the constitutions of the church were in themselves innocent , and the whole objection against them lay in the mistakes of other men . mr. tombs the leader of the anabaptists , hath writ a book to shew the lawfulness of resorting to the publick congregations . the author which i before mentioned assures us in behalf of the presbyterians , that they not only maintain the doctrine of the church of england , but likewise communicate in her publick worship , in his second discourse of the religion of england , pag. 17. by which acknowledgment we may take an estimate of the honesty of their separation . nay , i shall venture to say thus much farther , that the lawfulness of joyning in the publick worship is understood by the layety as well as clergy amongst them , is evident from these three things : first , that there are those persons to be named , who came to church before the act of oblivion , who never did since : secondly , that immediately after the act of uniformity , whilst the hopes of toleration were very uncertain , there was a much greater conformity both in the city of london , and over the whole nation than ever hath been since : thirdly , that i have enquired and could never learn that there was so much as one example to be given of any one of all the patrons or proselytes of the conventicles who did leave the smallest office whatever , rather than he would , in obedience to a late act of parliament , joyn in the prayers and receive the sacrament of the lord's supper according to the order of the church of england : from which it doth appear plainly , that in these mens esteem , either there is no sin in communicating with the church of england , or else , that these gentlemen of so extreamly tender consciences , can deliberately commit a sin , and that when they are performing the most solemn act of adoration of almighty god , and with all the shews of devotion imaginable : and seeing that these things are so , is it not huge pitty that a setled church , and a church in great reputation over all the reformed parts of christendom , should be run down by a meer noise of conscience , when it is very plain that when ever there is a real case put , where conscience ought to shew it self , that then no such thing appears , neither is there the least evidence that it is so much as thought upon . if there be any objection against the present constitution ; it must be either against the articles , the liturgy , the canons or the ceremonies ; as to the articles , there is scarce so much as one objection pretended against them , farther than as they relate to the following heads ; and if there were , such an objection could not easily be alleadged by the people as a just excuse for their non-conformity , because they are not at all concerned for to subscribe them , unless they bring upon themselves a voluntary obligation by some act of their own , as taking a degree in the university : but in this point many words are needless ; for besides the testimony of all churches abroad , we have at home two witnesses beyond all exception to the innocency and honour of the articles , even the two late celebrated advocates , the one for comprehension , the other for toleration : the former assures us in the behalf of those whose cause he pleads , that they do receive the doctrine of faith contained in the articles of religion , pag. 2. and again pag. 22. that they heartily embrace the english reformation established by law , &c. and that they do assent to the doctrine of faith contained in the articles of the church of england , and worship god according to that faith , pag. 22. the peace-offering doth likewise bear witness for us of that great esteem which is bore unto the articles of the church of england in all the reformed churches abroad , and withal doth assure us in behalf of the independents at home , that as to all which is purely doctrinal in them they do fully embrace and constantly adhere to , &c. and accordingly he undertakes to profess in the name of them all ; we have no new faith to declare , no new doctrine to teach , no private opinion to divulge , no point or truth do we profess , no not one , which hath not been declared , taught , divulged and esteemed as the common doctrine of the church of england , ever since the reformation , pag. 13. thus far therefore our way is clear , that the doctrine of the church is sound and esteemed to be so in the opinion of its greatest adversaries . in the next place therefore we are to consider , whether any reasonable plea for separation can be drawn from any just exception which may be taken against the liturgy ; and here there are two sorts of men to be considered : first , those who dislike all forms of prayer in general : secondly , those who are only disgusted at some particular things in ours . as to those who are against all forms of prayer ; i believe that the number of them , among considering persons , is not so great , as that any great regard ought to be had unto them ; and this must needs be so , for a reason which can never fail ; for it cannot choose but seem strangely absurd and infinitely unbecoming the great distance which is between us and almighty god , and that great awe which we ought to bear unto him ; that all the expressions of the publick devotion of every congregation in the whole nation should be left to the arbitrary , and especially the extemporary conception of each single person , who is bold enough to venture upon the taking so much upon him . it were very strange if this kingdom should at this day be ignorant , how very frequently folly , heresie , nay and blasphemy , hath been uttered in such kind of prayers ; and it is utterly impossible , that upon the indulgence of any such liberty , such extravagancies , can with any security be provided against ; and it is not unlikely that the greatest pretenders to the highest attainments in that way would be not a little out of countenance ; if so be that their own prayers were faithfully taken from their mouths , and after some reasonable space of time , when they might be supposed to have forgot them , presented to their view . and that which renders this evil utterly intolerable , is this , that these prayers which either really are extemporary else only pretended to be so ) are under that pretence recommended and regarded by the people as the only way of praying by the spirit ; and by that very means the ever blessed spirit is , as far as these mens endeavours can be succesful , entituled to all the follies , vanity , and weaknesses , all the sin and errour , and even those very blasphemies which are every day committed against him . and i think all good christians are concerned to endeavour , that if a liberty must be given to these persons to go on and to abuse the people , yet however that it may be done some other way , and they not permitted to bely the holy ghost . as for forms of prayers , the great reasonableness and even necessity of them is very apparent , and in scripture it self there are examples enough to be produced ; and if any man pleaseth to enter upon that argument , i no way doubt but there will be those found who will debate it with him . it shall suffice at present only to say , that our saviour christ did compose a form of prayer , and gave it to his disciples to use : now if , as great numbers of the people are brought to believe , that there is no praying by the spirit , besides praying ex tempore , then no man ever did , or ever could say christ's prayer by the spirit of christ. now , as to the other sort of persons , who have some exceptions against some expressions in our liturgy ; those things have been so fully examined , that of late we have heard very little of them : and the matter of it is all along so clearly unexceptionable , and so fitted for the common use of all christians , that all controversial expressions were designedly avoided : insomuch that i do not know of any considerable sect amongst us which may not joyn with us in every expression in it , except the socinians . now here perhaps some jealousies may arise in the minds of men , that if there were not some real exception against the liturgy , then so many good teachers would not lay it aside ; nay , and not only so , but , as far as mens intentions can be guessed at by their words and actions , very much abhor it . now , as to the behaviour of our dissenting brethren in this particular , i shall desire their admirers to remember this one thing , that his majesty not long after his happy restauration did put ●orth a declaration concerning ecclesiastical affaires , wherein he did very graciously indulge , much to the dissatisfied part of the clergy , in hopes thereby to win upon them ; and in that declaration he did propose this unto them , as a way whereby they might shew their gratitude for so great a condescention , that they would read so much of the liturgy as themselves had no exception against : but with many of them he could not prevail for so much as one syllable , not one collect , no nor so much as one chapter according to the rubrick ; so much doth yielding work upon that good-natur'd generation . now whether this refractoriness , as to the whole book , and every part and parcel of it , could possibly proceed solely and altogether from conscience , and not very much , if not altogether , from design or humour , let their best friends speak . in the next place , now as to the canons , i do not know that there doth or can●ly any objection against them which our present debate is concerned about ; because they are no immediate parts of the publick worship , and therefore can be no cause of the present separation , especially as to the people . as to the canons made in the year 1640. i must needs confess , that the scotch commissioners did complain much against them , and some english gentlemen made witty speeches upon them ; but they had both of them the ill luck to confess the real cause of the pique which they had against them , viz. the acknowledgement of his majesties authority as being independent , and above all coercion , either papal or popular . a doctrine which i must needs say was very inconsistent with those designs which those angry patriots were at that time carrying on . and i am very much mistaken if , at this very day , a great part of that quarrel which is taken up against the church be not founded upon this , that it is too faithfully devoted to the interests of the crown ; and that many persons are presbyterians , independents , fifth-monarchy-men , &c. as so many sanctified disguises under which they act the part of common-wealths-men . in the next place come we therefore to the ceremonies ; and there indeed the noise is very great . an excellent person , who for his pious labours upon a noble argument , and much more worthy of his pen , deserves much honour , hath in this part of the question exprest much more concern , than , i hope , himself upon a serious review will admit the cause to bear , in a book entituled , liberty of conscience upon its true and proper grounds asserted and vindicated , &c. hath thus expressed himself , p. 49. how may we lament over the present imposition of the ceremonies now enjoyn'd among us in england , which are no part of divine truth , nor any of christ's institutions , but things perfectly humane in their creation ; and yet are enforced by the civil power upon the practice and consciences of men . now here , with all due respect to that learned gentleman , i shall desire him to take notice , whether it be not an excellency and a felicity almost peculiar to the church of england , that in all her constitutions , her greatest adversaries are forced to betake themselves to the scanning of a few ceremonies , to find a cause , or , to speak more properly , a shew of controversie ; and that himself in his own great judgment hath not been able to find out any other flaw in the matter of all her laws , as much soever as he doth mislike the imposition of them . as for the cermonies themselves , the exceptions , or at least the clamours are very many ; that they are uncommanded by god ; that they are significant ; that they are will-worship ; that they are teaching for doctrines of god the commandments of men ; and lastly , that they do give scandal . as to the ceremonies being uncommanded by god , i never heard of any man who pretended them to be otherwise ; and therefore it is most clear and certain , that that church doth not teach for doctrines of god the commandments of men , which doth own publickly , that these are not the doctrines of god , but only the commandments of man : and if any man doth mistake in this case , which is a thing incredible that any should do so ; but if there be such a one , i am sure that the mistake is his own and not the fault of the church : for she hath taken care to prevent it , in the chapter of ceremonies before the common prayers , wherein she declares that the ceremonies which are retained , are retained for discipline and order , which upon just cause may be altered and changed , and therefore are not to be esteemed equal with gods law. but however , this is plain in the nature of things , that although among the ceremonies no one in particular is necessary , yet in general it is necessary , so far as order and decency is necessary , that some such there should be . but in the next place there is an objection , supposed to be of much greater force , and that is this ; that the ceremonies are significant : and here i must needs confess , that if they could have alledged , that the ceremonies had been insignificant , the objection had been much more worthy of having some notice taken of it ; because that the very nature and whole use of ceremonies doth consist in being significant . and in this i appeal to all mankind , whether in any one action sacred or civil , any one ceremony was ever instituted , unless it were in order to the signifying , denoting or expressing something by it . nor is thisall ; for the church hath taken care not only to vindicate the innocency , but withal to declare the usefulness of the significancy of her ceremonies in the fore-mentioned preface ; that they are neither dark nor dumb ceremonies , but are so set forth that every man may understand what they mean and to what use they do serve : so that it is not like that in time to come they should be abused . and after all this , methinks , our brethren of the presbytery should for their own sakes have had a great care of making use of this objection , as being themselves as liable to it as any other persons . the authors of the admonition to the parliament in queen elizabeths days , part 2. have recommended sitting at the sacrament , upon this very superstitious score of significancy ( as in our case they always call it ) in these words : as in the old testament eating the paschal lamb standing , signified a readiness to pass ; even so in the receiving it now sitting , after the example of christ , we signifie rest , that is , a full finishing thorough christ of all the ceremonial law , and a perfect work of redemption wrought , that giveth rest for ever . and in our own dayes , in that which by them was looked upon as a considerable act of divine worship and religious adoration , the entring into a publick solemn national covenant with almighty god , as they phrase it : the doing of this was prescribed with several ceremonies uncommanded in scripture , and by themselves intended to be very significant ; as it to be found by every one who pleaseth to look in the ordinance of febr. 2. 1643. in this case without referring us to any book , chapter , or verse ; they thought it sufficient to say , that it is ordered and ordained by the lords and commons in parliament , that the said covenant be solemnly taken in all places , and for the better and more orderly taking thereof , that these directions ensuing are appointed and enjoyned to be strictly followed : of which directions the thirteenth is this , the manner of taking it to be thus ; the minister to read the whole covenant distinctly and audibly in the pulpit , and during the time of reading thereof the whole congregation to be uncovered ( which by the way is a much greater shew of reverence than they have taken care for , either at the reading of the ten commandements , or our saviour's sermon upon the mount ) and at the end of reading thereof all to take it standing , lifting up their right hand bare . now i think that it is highly requisite for these men to consider with themselves , whether every one of all their own pleas of the purity and simplicity of the gospel way of worship without the mixture of humane inventions , and their bold surmises of invading the throne of christ by determining those things which christ hath left free , have any the least force against the ceremonies of the church , which they have not against this prescribed formality of their own , in taking the covenant . but after all which is possible to be said in order to the clearing of the mistakes about the ceremonies , there is an objection which is supposed not to be capable of any answer to be made unto it ; and that is this , that be they what they will in themselves , good men are offended at them , they grieve thousands of the godly brethren , and though we should grant such men to be mistaken , yet we must not offend our weak brethren . the case of scandal hath been so often and so clearly stated , that i shall say the less upon it ; and therefore , instead of the argument , i shall rather choose to say something to the persons who use it . in the first place i shall readily grant , that if any persons are really offended at the use of the ceremonies , in their own way of understanding that word , they must needs be very weak brethren , and i shall only ask them the old question , how long they will be weak ? and i shall profess my self to have no very honourable opinion of the means of knowledge , the opportunities of choyce attainments which are to be had in the conventicles : if so be that those , who are such weak brethren as not to be got above such silly scruples , are looked upon to be sufficiently gifted to be publick teachers amongst them . in the next place i shall ask , who taught the people to be offended at a few harmless ceremonies ? who raised all their causless scruples , infused so many senceless jealousies , and not being content to have at first infused these needless fears , do still go on to nurse up and cherish them ? who first betrayed great numbers into folly , and ever after continued to humour them in it ? he who can conform himself , and yet refuseth to do so , for fear lest his auditory and acquaintance should abate in their esteem or contributions towards him ; if he means sincerely , & to shew himself an honest man , he ought to deal faithfully with his admirers , & tell them really what himself thinks , communicate the satisfaction which he hath received , and perswade them not to be longer needlesly afraid where no fear is : it is very plain that the generality of dissenters do entertain wild suspicions about the service of the church , upon no other ground than an implicite faith which they have in the skill and honesty of their teachers . such and such a one is a very precious and knowing man , and do you think that he would not conform , if he did not know conformity to be a sin ? the pastor and his flock in this case do mutually guide and are guided by each other ; he makes it his business to please and humour them , , and they look upon it as a great mark of their judgment , and an infallible token of their election to admire him . but if the weakness of these our brethren hath so great a privilege entailed upon it , as that we must do nothing which they have taken a fancy against ; a thing in it self lawful and imposed by lawful authority , must immediately become unlawful , if so be that any scrupulous man can be brought to entertain a foolish jealousie about it : then is this kind of weakness endued with a very strange degree of omnipotence ; because that upon this supposition , the very mistakes of men are able to alter the nature of things ; a thing in it self innocent , doth according to this doctrine , immediately become unlawful , as soon as ever that any fanciful deluded man doth erroneously conceive it to be so ; but methinks that those who pretend to be such eager asserters of christian liberty , as this sort of men have always done , should , of all other persons , the least endure to have it thus trifled with ; as to have it believed to be openly exposed to lie perpetually at the mercy of all the humour , melancholy , artifice , cheat and discontent in the whole nation . but if this be the meaning of those texts of scripture , where we are commanded to avoid the giving of scandal ( as most certainly and evidently it is not ) that the actions of all private men , and the authority of all publick constitutions must be as often over-ruled as any single person is , either by his own folly or by the arts of other men , imposed upon to believe evil of them ; then can no man tell in any matter of action sacred or civil ( except in the matters of immediate and plain divine precept ) what one thing shall be lawful for him to do in the very next moment . but if it be thus appointed by the apostle , that the mistakes of other men , though we should suppose them to be well-meaning ones , are to have so uncontrollable an influence upon the actions of all private persons , and the decrees of all publick ones ; if it be thus , i say , it will thence follow very apparently , that there is a great necessity lying upon the government , of taking care what kind of persons are intrusted with teaching the people . for if conscience , though never so erroneous , are of right , and by apostolical appointment to have so great a regard had unto them ; then of all things great circumspection should be used , and security taken , for the understanding and honesty of all those who are intrusted to be guides of consciences . for if the errors of conscience are things of so great authority , as to be an immediate supersedeas to our whole christian liberty , to all sorts of humane laws , then it is the greatest phrenzy imaginable , to grant a promiscuous liberty to whoever pleaseth to teach and instruct the people . alas ! the vulgar are easily imposed upon ; and it is not impossible but that we may find in our days , what st. paul did in his , that there are those who will speak lyes in hypocrisie because of advantage ; and bring their auditories to admire those very doctrines which themselves do heartily despise ; outwardly court their hearers , and inwardly laugh at them . and in the mean time , are not religion and government like to be at a very fine pass ? when who so pleaseth shall have the privilege of making all possible advantages of that very scruple which himself was author of ; and , when all other objections fail , shall be allowed to plead his own exemption from all obedience to the settled constitutions , from the dissatisfaction of other men , who , if it had not been for him , had never entertained the least thought of being dissatisfied . but in the next place it is frequently urged , that those terms of communion are not looked upon as sufficient , which were always looked upon as such in former days ; but there are newer and straiter bonds added to them ; a new declaration of assent and consent : and besides all this , the consciences of men are provoked , which otherwise would have remained silent , if not satisfied ; new scruples are raised in the minds of men , which before lay buried , and which would otherwise have been quite forgot ; in that it is not thought sufficient that the covenant should be laid aside , but that it should be formally renounced ; and not only so , but it is required that men must swear not only for themselves , but that no man else is obliged by it . now after all this wonder , there is not any one thing which is not very easily accounted for : for surely it hath been among men not at all unusual , nor in it self strange , that where former securities have been found too slight , to add others to them . as for the declaration of assent and consent , the addition which it doth make to the former subscriptions is not so considerable , as to raise a scruple in the mind of any man who was real in them . and i suppose that the great mystery which is pretended to lie in the terribie sound of assent and consent , which the people are taught to be affrighted at , as if some dismal meaning were hid under it , is nothing else but an art to raise their jealousie , that so they might be the better prepared for the finding out some plot or other in the following renunciation of the covenant . a thing which was ordered not without great cause ; and it is very suspicious that that cause doth not only continue , but increase , as appears but too plainly from this , that there is so great a clamour raised upon it . and this cause did in a great measure proceed from themselves , and that great stir which they made about the obligation of the covenant , in the first and second year immediately after the restoration of his majesty , both from press and pulpit : parties were made in the city , and endeavoured to be made in parliament , for the owning of that obligation . it was with great confidence urged , that it was a publick and national oath , binding all persons of this nation , whether they did swear it personally or not , and all posterity after us in their particular places ; and all that shall succeed into the publick places and politick capacities of this kingdom , to pursue the things covenanted for : and this obligation is for ever to remain and abide , and by no humane act or power to be absolved or made void ; as , amongst others , mr. crofton hath endeavoured to prove at large in his famous writings on that subject . and , to speak the truth , if we once admit the grounds which this party of men do go upon , what he doth alledge hath great reason in it ; it being very evident , that those clauses which he doth produce out of the covenant , do suppose all posterity to be involved in them : and this he urgeth not as his own single opinion , but as the sence of his whole party ; and , besides the evidence of the thing , he alledgeth , the testimony to the truth of jesus christ and the covenant , by the london ministers , dec. 14. 1647. several of which are at this present preachers to the separated congregations ; in which it is plainly declared , that it is not in the power of any person or persons upon earth to dispence with or absolve us from it . nay , the power of parliaments , which in other cases is allowed to be large enough , is in this bound up , as mr. cr. tells us , p. 139. that the parliament consisting of lords and commons , and that in their publick capacity as a parliament , the house of commons assembled in their house , and in formality of the body of the nation , with their speaker before them , went unto st. margarets church in westminster with the greatest solemnity imaginable , did , as the representative body of the kingdom , swear this covenant : which , as a farther testimony that it was a national covenant , they caused to be printed with their names subscribed , and to be hanged up in all churches , and in their own house , as a compass whereby ( in conformity to right , reason and religion ) to steer their then debates , and to dictate to all that shovld svcceed in that place and capacity what obligation did before god ly upon the body of this nation . those who plead for the removal of the renunciation of the covenant , either they do believe , that the covenant doth oblige at this time , or , that it doth not oblige ; if they do believe that it doth not oblige , why may they not declare that they do believe it not to do so ? one reason may indeed be given , why the preachers themselves may believe the covenant not to oblige , and yet that they should by all means avoid the declaring that they do thus believe ; and that is this , that they would have the people believe it to have an obligation , although themselves believe it to have none . a perswasion this , which , in some juncture of affairs or other , they may chance to make very great use of ; and that this may not be altogether incredible their procedure hath not been one jot honester than this amounts to in another part of the controversie between us . it is well known that there are among them , and not among the meanest of them who have believed the liturgy and ceremonies to be very innocent , and yet could be never brought to say one word to the people of this their belief ; but on the other side now , if they are really perswaded that the covenant doth carry a lasting obligation along with it : in that case i shall not , during that perswasion of theirs , desire them to renounce it ; but withall i must crave their leave to add this further , that during that perswasion of theirs , i think it but reasonable , that the government should cast a very watchful eye over them . and of this i shall give an account from the covenant it self , wherein there are so many things , and of such fatal and universal consequence , covenanted for , that the whole nation is highly concerned that no considerable part of it should look upon themselves , and every body else , as lying under the obligation of the oath of god , to watch all opportunities wherein they may accomplish such great and publick mischiefs , as will appear by a particular consideration of the thing it self . article 1. that we shall sincerely , really , and constantly , through the grace of god , endeavour in our several places and callings the preservation of the reformed religion in the church of scotland , in doctrine , worship , discipline , and government against our common enemies : the reformation of religion in the kingdoms of england and ireland in doctrine , worship , discipline , and government , according to the word of god , and the example of the best reformed churches : and shall endeavour to bring the churches of god in the three kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and vniformity in religion , in confession of faith , form of church-government , directory for worship and catechizing ; that we and our posterity after us , may as brethren , live in faith and love , and that the lord may delight to dwell in the midst of us . in which article it is easie to observe many things lyable to very just and material exceptions ; as first , by what authority can any private man in england , if he keeps himself within his own place and calling , intermeddle either in the preservation or alteration of the religion and government of the church and kingdom of scotland ? nay , by what authority can any person in this kingdom whatever , be he in what publick capacity he will ( his majesty only excepted , or those who act by commission from him ) have any thing to do with the concerns in that kingdom ? and secondly , this first part of the article may upon very good grounds be supposed to be inconsistent with the remaining parts of it : for we are sworn to preserve the doctrine , discipline , &c. of scotland , and withall , to bring the three kingdoms to the nearest uniformity in religion , confession of faith , form of church-government , directory for worship and catechizing ; so that scotland must necessarily be our pattern ; and yet in the same breath we are sworn to reform england and ireland , according to the word of god , and the example of the best reformed churches : and it is more than possible , that our own church , as it is already by law established , or at least some other church beyond the seas , may come altogether as near the word of god , as that of scotland : and what is to be done in that case ? and in the third place , all the other dissenters whatever , besides the presbyterians , are highly concerned to see that the covenant is not looked upon as a thing of any obligation ; because that that is express for uniformity , and as such , is not less than absolutely inconsistent with liberty of conscience ; and as hard thoughts soever as the smaller sects have entertained concerning the bishops ; they are much more concerned to secure themselves against not a few , nor the least considerable , among their own dear brethren , article 2. that we shall in like manner , without respect of persons , endeavour the extirpation of popery , prelacy ; that is , church-government by archbishops , bishops , their chancellors , and commissaries , deans , deans and chapters , archdeacons , and all other ecclesiastical officers depending on that hierarchy ; superstition , heresie , schism , profaneness , and whatsoever shall be found contrary to sound doctrine , and the power of godliness , lest we partake in other mens sins , and thereby be in danger to receive of their plagues ; and that the lord may be one , and his name one in these kingdoms . as to the former part of this article , that which concerns the overthrow of the established government of the church , i shall only say this , that the modesty of these men is in this case very admirable , and there is no doubt to be made , but that in any other kingdom it would be thought to be so ; in that they do expect to be admitted into the preferments of the church , and to be allowed to be publick preachers in it ; and yet at the very same time , they do desire to be excused from declaring , that they are not of a perswasion , that there doth ly an obligation by oath upon them themselves , the whole nation , or ( to say no more ) at least upon some other person , who ought to be nameless , to overthrow the whole frame of the government of that church , which they desire to be admitted into the preferments of , and particularly of that bishop by whose hands they are admitted . i would fain know whether there be any other part of the world , where any persons dare to demand of the present establishment , that it would for their sakes so far relax it self , in order to their admission into it . sure these menimagine , that the church is in a very great necessity of them , that it cannot stand one moment without them ; when , in the very terms of their admission , they do demand no less than this , that a new law should be made on purpose , whereby they may be privileged from declaring , whether or no it is lawful for them to suffer the church to continue two moments longer than there shall arise an opportunity , wherein they may be able to overthrow it . as for the remaining part of the article concerning superstition , heresie , schism , profaneness , and whatsoever shall be found contrary to sound doctrine or the power of godliness , &c. i shall leave that to our friends of the presbytery and their separating brethren to dispute about it : and it is clear enough , that they are altogether as unlike to agree in those particulars , as i am with either of them : as lovingly as ever they may look upon one another at present , i am sure that the covenant , when opportunity serves , will be found to be levelled as directly against the conventicles , as against the cathedrals . i shall observe no more in this article besides the great charitableness of the conclusion , that the lord may be one and his name one in the three kingdoms : as if the church of england followed after strange gods , and that those ordained by her were really no other than , as they are often stiled according to the good manners which the people learn of too many such preachers , the priests of baal . art . 3. we shall with the same sincerity , reality and constancy in our several vocations , endeavour , with our estates and lives , mutually to preserve the rights and privileges of the parliament and the liberties of the kingdoms ; and to preserve and defend the kings majesties person and authority , in the preservation and defence of the true religion and liberties of the kingdom : that the world may hear witness with our consciences of our loyalty , and that we have no thoughts and intention to diminish his majesties iust power and greatness . this article hath been very much and very much insisted on and gloried in for the seeming loyalty of one expression in it : but , in order to a right understanding ; let us consider how affairs stood at that time : it is well known , that the compilers and enjoyners of this covenant were , at that very time , in actual arms ( i hope that it is no offence , if i say in actual rebellion ) against the king. this very covenant was a great instrument by which they did carry on their design then on foot against him : the king was betrayed and sold by one part of the covenanters , those from scotland , he was bought , imprisoned , and in effect deposed by another part of the covenanters , those in england , and by the most loyal of them , even the lords and commons assembled at westminster ; who by their votes of non-address , febr. 17. 1647. ( which , let us note , was long before the seclusion by the army ) did declare , first , that they will make no farther addresses or applications to the king : and in the fourth vote , that they will receive no more messages from the king , and do enjoyn that no person whatever do receive or bring any message from the king to both or either houses of parliament , or to any other person ; which votes they published with a declaration , wherein they lay down some few of those many reasons ( as they express it ) why they cannot repose any more trust in him. nay , long before that time , when the scots complained of some rigours used towards his majesty , as being contrary to the covenant , the house of commons did return them this answer , novemb. 18. 1646. we observe that you mention the defence of the king twice , from the covenant ; but in both places you leave out , in the preservation of the true religion , &c. a main clause without which the other ought not to be mentioned . which very answer themselves did afterwards receive from their own army , in a declaration from st. albans , novemb. 18. 1648. where they reminded their masters of their own doctrine , the defence of the king , say they , is to be understood with this restriction ; in the preservation of , &c. or otherwise the whole proceedings of both kingdoms in makeing and maintaining war against him in defence of religion and liberties are questionable for breach of covenant ; since that way of preserving did probably tend to the destruction and was without any safe provision , either for his person , or that authority which can properly be called his , or understood in conjunction with his person ; but that therein his person might probably have been destroyed under the sword or by a bullet , yea was ordinarily endeavoured to be so , as well as the persons of others in arms with him ; and that authority of his was certainly opposed and endeavoured to be destroyed thereby , instead of being defended . remonstrance from st. albans , p. 55. indeed , about the time of the king's murther , many of the covenanters did declare themselves a little dissatisfied with that way of proceeding against him ; and did ( how reasonably upon their own grounds , i know not ) urge the covenant for his preservation : but of their behaviour in this case , i shall give only the account of an author , who lived in those times when they had opportunities enough to have taken what account of him themselves pleased . his words are these , in a book entituled , a short view of the life and reign of king charles the first , monarch of great britain , pag. 94. the presbyterians carried on this tragedy to the very last act , from the first bringing in of the scots to the beginning of the war , and from the beginning of the war till they had brought him prisoner to holmby-house , and then quarrelled with the independents for taking of the work out of their hands , and robbing them of the long expected fruit of their plots and practices . they cried out against them in their pulpits and clamoured against them in their pamphlets for that , of which themselves were at least parcel-guilty , et si non re at voto saltem regicidae , &c. on the other side , the independents , who washed their hands in the blood of the king , seemed as desirous as the presbyterians to wash their hands of it : by them it was alleadged more calmly , that they had put charles stuart to death , against whom they proceeded as the cause of so much bloodshed ; but that the king had been muthered a long time before by the presbyterians , when they deprived him of his crown , his sword , his scepter ; of his crown , by forcing from him those prerogatives which placed him in a throne of eminency above his people ; of his sword , by wresting the militia out of his hands , by which he was made unable to protect them ; and of his scepter , in divesting him of his power of calling parliaments , and of his negative voyce in making those laws by which he was to govern all estates of men under his dominion : and more than so , they had deprived him of his natural liberty as a man ; of the society of his wife , as he was a husband ; of the conversation of his children , as he was a father ; of the attendance of his servants , as he was a master ; and in a word , of all those comforts which might make life valued for a blessing : so that there was nothing left for the independents to do , but to put an end to those calamities into which this miserable man , this vir dolorum , as he might very well be called , had been so accursedly plunged by the presbyterians . to which i shall only add this farther , that notwithstanding all that loyalty which the covenanters have so often boasted of , from the obligation of the covenant ; yet it is well known , that the covenant was placed by themselves as a bar between him and his throne , that without submitting to this , they could not endure to think of his restauration to that ; and this to so high a degree , that even in ianuary , 1648. notwithstanding the apparent danger which the king's life was known to be in , yet even then , the general assembly of scotland did violently oppose all courses thought upon for his relief , and pressed earnestly , that his majestie 's concessions and offers concerning religion may directly and positively be declared unsatisfactory to the parliament , and that there shall be no engagement for restoreing his majesty to one of his houses with honour , freedom and safety , before security and assurance be had from his majesty by his solemn oath under hand and seal ; that he shall for himself and his successors consent and agree to acts of parliament enjoyning the league and covenant , and fully establishing presbyterian government , directory of worship , and confession of faith in all his majesties dominions ; and that his majesty shall never make opposition to any of these , or endeavour any change thereof . vid. declar. of jan. 10. 1648. now therefore , seeing it is so plain a case , that in the opinion of the compilers and enjoyners of the covenant ; all the fore-mentioned violences both might and ought to have been used against the king , by vertue and in pursuance of the covenant : it thence follows unavoidably , that his majesty is not a little concerned to be very watchful over all those persons who are so tender of the honour of the covenant , that they demand it as the condition of their admission into the church , that they may by no means be questioned concerning their opinion about its obligation . article 4. we shall with all faithfulness endeavour the discovery of all such as have been or shall be incendiaries , malignants or evil instruments , by hindering the reformation of religion , dividing the king from his people , or one of the kingdoms from another , or making any faction or parties among the people contrary to this league and covenant , that they may be brought to publick trial , and receive condign punishment , as the degree of their offences shall require or deserve , or the supreme iudicatories of both kingdoms respectively , or others , having power from them for that effect , shall judge convenient . it is very well known what the meaning of incendiaries and malignants is , in this article : and it is shrewdly to be suspected , that those who are perswaded of the obligation of this oath , are likewise perswaded , that those incendiaries and malignants , have not as yet been brought to condign punishment ; and whatever benefit the covenanters themselves may receive by an act of oblivion , it is much to be suspected , that those who are covenanted against are looked upon as not capable of receiving any advantage by it : and there is reason to believe , that those who scruple the validity of that act of parliament which declares against the obligation of the covenant , are by no means to be trusted , lest , if opportunity should serve , they would not likewise scruple the validity of that act of parliament which gave them indempnity . for thus , according to their own grounds , they may argue , the act of oblivion is against the covenant , and then it followeth in the next place , that it is against their consciences ; it is against the oath of god lying upon themselves and upon the whole nation and upon all posterity , and no humane act or power can absolve them or any one else from it ; and every thing done against the covenant is null and void , the whole nation being bound up by it to all ages . for therefore it was that the covenant was hung up in the parliament , as a compass whereby to steer their debates , and to dictate to all , who shall succeed in that place and capacity , what obligation doth before god lie upon the body of this nation , as i have before observed . now upon these mens suppositions , there is no security to be had , but that they who passed an act of oblivion , to pardon any thing done against the covenant , are involved in guilt and liable to punishment for so doing ; and are upon those very accounts to expect , when providence shall put an opportunity into the hands of these zealots , the very same return which the prophet made to ahab , 1 king. 20. v. 42. thus saith the lord , because thou hast let go a man whom i have appointed to destruction , therefore thy life shall go for his life , and thy people for his people . the next thing which i shall observe in this article is this , that those persons who covenanted together , among other things , to maintain the liberties of the kingdom , have so far forgot themselves , as that in that very covenant they have set up an arbitrary government : the rule of condign punishment here set down , is not any known law , no , not so much as a new one of their own making ; but , as the degree of their offences shall require or deserve , or the supreme iudicatories of both kingdoms respectively , or others having power from them for that effect , shall judge convenient . by which words it is plain , that they did not look upon it as sufficient to take an arbitary power into their own hands , but likewise did delegate it to as many else besides as they pleased . art . 5. whereas the happiness of a blessed peace between the kingdoms , denied in former times to our progenitors , is by the good providence of god granted to us , and hath lately been concluded and settled by both parliaments ; we shall each one of us , according to our place and interest , endeavour that they may be conjoyned in a firm peace and vnion to all posterity , and that iustice may be done upon all wilful opposers thereof , in manner expressed in the precedent article : according to the preceding article , i. e. as shall be judged convenient . the modesty of these men is very admirable , in that they would out-face the world , that england and scotland were never at peace in former times , or , rather their language is something mysterious , that the two nations were never at peace till they had involved them in a war. but as in the former article they were , as i have shewed , tender of the liberty of the subject ; so in this they have been very careful of the authority of his majesty , in that they have taken upon them to make peace with another kingdom without him ; and withal when that very peace was nothing else , besides their joyning forces against him . art . 6. we shall also according to our place and calling , in this common cause of religion , liberty and peace of the kingdoms , assist and defend all those that enter into this league and covenant , in the maintaining and pursuing thereof ; and shall not suffer our selves directly or indirectly , by whatsoever combination , perswasion or terrour to be divided and withdrawn from this blessed vnion and conjunction ; whether to make defection to the contrary part , or to give our selves to detestable indifferency or neutrality in this cause , which so much concerns the glory of god , the good of the kingdom , and the honour of the king : but shall all the dayes of our lives zealously and constantly continue therein against all opposition , and promote the same according to our power against all letts and impediments whatsoever : and what we are not able of our selves to suppress or overcome , we shall reveal and make known , that it may be timely prevented and removed : all which we shall do in the sight of god. from which article it it is plainly to be seen , that those who do believe themselves to lie under the obligation of this covenant , are and ought to be looked upon as a party already formed and combined together against the whole nation besides , having a common band to unite and tie them fast together : and this is such an union as they look upon as sacred and indissoluble . and the ends , in order to which they are thus combined , are in their esteem such , as that nothing can excuse the least intermission in their pursuance after them , besides an absolute impossibility , and even in that case it is lawful for them only , to delay so long , as to expect a more favourable season : for they are according to this article , never to be wrought over to so much as a detestable indifferency or neutrality in this cause of god ; but zealously and constantly to continue therein against all opposition , all letts and impediments whatsoever . and having now laid down the six articles of the covenant , i shall only add a few of the last words of the large and solemn conclusion of it ; wherein they pray god to bless their proceedings herein with such success as may be an encouragement to other churches , groaning under , or in danger of the yoke of antichristian tyranny , to joyn in the same or like association or covenant , to the glory of god , the enlargement of the kingdom of iesus christ , and the peace and tranquillity of christian kingdoms and common-wealths . it hath been often said in the behalf of the presbyterians , that they did not engage in the late war under a less authority than that of the two houses of parliament : what authority the two houses of parliament have in raising a war against the king shall be no part of this enquiry , nor whether the lords and gentlemen who at that time staid at westminster were the two houses of parliament ? be these two things as they will , although it is not unknown what may be said as to both those cases ; yet however the covenant , hath informed us of another sort of authority under which a war may be raised at any time against all the kings in europe : because in these words is held forth a publick invitation to all subjects whatsoever , who do either really groan under , or are in any danger of any thing , which our folk have pleased to call , or themselves shall chance to fancy to be a yoke of antichristian tyranny , to enter either into this or the like association or covenant . now i suppose , that it is no easie task to make out , that all kingdoms have parliaments endued with so large a share of the soveraignty , as that they have authority to take up arms against their respective princes : and if there were such parliaments every where , this invitation is only made to the christian churches , without taking the least notice of parliaments ; nay with a full assurance that there were no such parliaments to be taken notice of . so that by this doctrine the church alone may enter into association against the state upon the score of religion ( especially if it can but cry out antichrist ) may engage the subjects of all europe against their soveraigns , be they princes or commomwealths . i know very well that those who urge the taking away of the declaration enjoyned concerning the renouncing of the covenant , have one evasion whereby to avoyd entring into the merits of the cause , and that is this , the seeming unreasonableness of that clause ; also i hold that there lieth no obligation upon me , or any other person from the oath commonly called the solemn , &c. is it not unjust that one man should be bound to swear to the obligations of another ? as plausible soever as this may seem , no doubt it is but an evasion ; for it is well known whom they mean by that other person whom they suppose to be obliged ; and besides to make this case seem much harder than it is indeed ; they endeavour to perswade us , that this renunciation is what really it is not ; for it is plain , that this declaration is not an oath , nor any thing like one , only we are called upon to declare what our opinion is in a case there put to us ; we are so far from being required in this case unto the swearing for any one else ; that we are not called upon to swear for our selves , we do not swear that there doth ly no obligation either upon our selves or any other person , but only that we do not believe that there doth . and after all this , the pretence of being scrupulous about declaring any thing concerning the obligation of any other person hath one great reserve in it : for , the very supposal of the possibility of that is in effect to say , that the covenant as to the matter of it is in every particular respect lawful ; for unless it be lawful in every particular respect , no body can be obliged by it ; and if once it be granted to be a lawful oath , it will be very easie thence to deduce that it is obligatory to more persons than one . and thus i have taken a short review of the covenant , wherein it is very plain that there are many things of such universal and dangerous consequence therein covenanted for , as do render it not altogether unworthy the care of those who are in publick places to consider a little with themselves , what the meaning of it is , that so many men do profess themselves to have so deep a sense of the obligation of the covenant , as that a law must be made on purpose to gratifie them in that humour : the publick constitutions must veil to their unknown scruples , and with the honour of having the wisdom of the whole nation confess it self to have been all along mistaken , they expect to be admitted publick preachers ; this plea is such a one as doth look as if it had some deep meaning in it , and ought to be thoroughly understood before admitted ; i shall end this argument as i did begin it ▪ either these men do believe that the covenant doth oblige , or , they do not believe it , if they do not believe it to oblige , i cannot see what honest reason can be given why they should scruple to declare this their belief ; but on the other side , if they do really believe that the covenant doth oblige them , it is much more adviseable , that this perswasion should keep them out of the church , than that they should bring this perswasion into it : and whereas the law-makers hoped that the peevishness of this sort of people would within some reasonable compass of time have grown weary of it self , and accordingly had provided that the declaration against the covenant should , within a few years , of course have become antiquated ; the clamours of these men have given so reasonable a jealousie about their retaining their old principles , as may well serve to awaken the caution of those in authority , so far as to put them in mind of giving new life to their old act , and enlarging the terms of its duration : for seeing that the dissenters do value themselves so much upon their remembring the covenant ; our governours have no small concern to let it be seen , that neither do they forget it . to all which hath been already said , i shall add this one thing ; it may not unjustly seem a cause of much wonder how it should come to pass , that the covenant should be looked upon as a thing much more sacred and indissoluble now than it was in former dayes ; that correspondence which mr. ienkins , and a great many other london ministers held with the scots , for the sake of which he and others were cast into prison , will not be denied to be in pursuance of the obligation of the covenant , and of that part of it which they are alwayes glorying in , the loyal and meritorious part , as to the authority of his majesty : now i dare appeal to any member of his present congregation , whether he hath not renounced this part of the obligation of the covenant , in these following words . to the supreme authority , the parliament of the common-wealth of england . the humble petition of vvilliam ienkin prisoner . that the providence of god hath in the iudgement of your petitioner as evidently appeared in the removing of others from , & investing your honours with the government of this nation , as ever they appeared in the taking away or bestowing of any government in any history of any age in the world. that he apprehends that a refusal to be subject to this present authority under the pretence of upholding the title of anyone upon the earth is a refusal to acquiesce in the wise and righteous pleasure of god ; such an opposing of the government set up by the soveraign lord of heaven and earth , as none can have peace either in acting or suffering for : and that your petitioner looks upon it as his duty to yield to this authority all active and chearful obedience , even for conscience sake , &c. here is a plain renunciation of all the obligation of the covenant , so far as respects the king ; the good man is quit by providence , nay did not that whole party , as scrupulous as ever they may now seem , from that time forward ever afterward till the laying aside the family of cromwels , absolutely lay aside all thought of any manner of obligation either to king or covenant . and now after all these dangers which will be perpetually impending over us from the covenant , and which we can never be secure from , so long as there is the least pretence remaining among us , that that oath is at all obligatory ; there is another thing which may justly raise our wonder , and may concern us much more than the generality of us are aware , to enquire what may the meaning of it ; and that is this , to consider how it doth come to pass , that the presbyterians and the other sectaries do all at present unite in the common plea of liberty of conscience ; for it is very plain that in this part of the debate between us , their inclinations , judgements and interests are very different , and their pleas utterly inconsistent . it is not so long ago , but that some alive remember it , that the sweet noyse of liberty of conscience made a very pleasant sound , and the dissenters from the legal establishment were all for a while hugely taken themselves , and did endeavour to charm each other with it ; but within the compass of a very little time , they themselves could not tell what to do with it , fell out with one another about the nature , bounds , and limits of it ; and even at this very day it is a clear case , that any private person , without the least entrenching upon the authority of his superiours , may sa●ely undertake , that all the pretenders to liberty of conscience in the whole nation , shall every one of them have their utmost wish , in the very same moment that they themselves shall all agree about it ; i must needs say that this plea is at the first view something specious , and hath some shews of reason in it ; but if it be a little narrowly looked into , it will be found to be a fine word , which no body knoweth the meaning of , a thing which looks prettily , but is of no manner of use , which very many persons do admire , and very few if any at all will in the least endure . and to make this evident , let us consider that this liberty of conscience must be either limited , or unlimited ; if limited , it is by no means to be called liberty of conscience ; nay , it is a plain giving up of the cause , for it is an actuall granting , that conscience is neither so sacred , nor hath any right to be looked upon as so tender a thing , but that it both may and ought to have bounds and limits set unto it ; and i believe that there are few men who are not of this mind , or , if they are not at present , a little experience will quickly bring them to be of it . now if conscience be to be limited , then they who do not like those limits which the law hath already set unto it should do well ( when they have obtained lieve for their so doing ) to propose those other limits which they see cause to desire ; and after they are agreed themselves about those limits , let them in a dutiful manner offer them to their superiours , alledge their reasons , and among them , let them by no means omit this one , which they so often boast of and triumph in , the great numbers , and quality of those persons who are agreed upon those bounds and limits , who will acquiesce and rest satisfied in them : and without the doing of this , the raisers of all these clamours do nothing else but put an intolerable affront upon the wisdom and authority of the nation , to demand so importunately the alteration of the setled constitution , in order to the gratification of no body knoweth whom , why , or in what , either how far the alteration is desired , or what is designed to be the effect of any such alteration . let , i say , the dissenters , who take themselves to be considerable enough to expect a publick change for their sakes , declare concerning themselves and their intentions , we are they who do desire an alteration ; we do desire it to be made only thus far , and then we will acquiesce in it , and in our several places and callings ( according to a known reading ) will endeavour to make all others to acquiesce in it ; and we know , that all the sober , serious , peaceable , godly , knowing , conscientious part of the nation will joyn with us in it . when the noise-makers have done this , then , and not before , it will be seasonable to harken unto them : upon these terms , i say , and only upon these , their proposals will be in a condition to be taken into consideration : when it is once known what the desires of any party are , then there is room for enquiry , whether or no , or how far they carry reason in them . and it may sometimes so chance , that such demands as are not altogether reasonable in themselves , may yet in some sort be thought fit to be complied with in regard of the number , quality , merits or interest of those persons who appear to be fond of them . in a debate about the alteration of a legal establishment , there are two things highly considerable ; 1. the nature of the alteration it self ; 2. the nature of those who desire it , who they are , how many , and what kind of people . now these are things which themselves alone are qualified to make out unto us ; and till they have done that , authority is scarce in a capacity to concern it self about it : for it can have no measures to take , nor propose to it self any end ; it can neither know what concessions to make , nor to whom ; can have no way the least assurance , either what will satisfie , or who they are who are to be satisfied . and as for the late device of comprehension , the nature of of it is as yet unknown , and he must be a bold man who will undertake for the event of it . as to that which is by ordinary persons to be understood of it , it amounts to no more than a pretty artifice of saving the reputation of about a dozen persons , who are sick of their present separation from the church , and stand in need of a plausible pretence under which to return unto it : their credit will not suffer them to renounce their old principles , and they are weary of sticking longer to them . now if the pride of these men should be thus far gratified , who can secure us of any great effect from it ? will their hearers imitate their teachers in their compliance upon these terms or abhorr them for it ? and if we had any assurance in getting above these difficulties , yet however , as to all those who do not come within the comprehension , every one of all the pleas of liberty of conscience and persecution remain as they were before , so that such a purchase will be upon no prudent estimate worth the price we pay for it . these two things therefore i take to be very clear ; first , that liberty with bounds and limits set to it , is not liberty of conscience : 2. that if any other bounds and limits are to be set besides those which the law hath already set , it is very requisite , indeed necessary , that those limits should be known before admitted , agreed upon among themselves before they be desired from their superiours . but because i very well know that how reasonable soever this way of procedure is in it self , yet that the concerned gentlemen will find more than a few difficulties in it ; i shall therefore enquire a little into the other member of the fore-mentioned division , and that is , such a toleration as is unlimited . and here i do freely confess this , that all the pleas which pretend to shew the reasonableness and usefulness of liberty of conscience do plainly prove this , if they do prove any thing at all : and the late authour of humane reason hath been so much honester than many of the writers upon this argument , that he hath fairly owned the conclusion which his premises naturally do tend unto . now that which here doth first offer it self to our consideration , is this : how it doth come to pass that in this part of the argument the presbyterians of late have observably been very silent ? there was a time when in this case their zeal was as warm as any mans , and nothing in the whole world was in their esteem more frightful , more intolerable than toleration . in the year , 1644. this point of indulgence was a matter of high debate , and the dissenters from the presbyterian way did desire the same liberty from their impositions which they had both of them before joyned in des●●ing from the national settlement ; their pretences were at least equal , they had the same natural right to freedom which any other men had , they had the same pleas of christian liberty , and besides all this they had another very good title upon which they might expect indulgence from the presbyterians in point of merit ; the same arguments the sectaries shewed to be in common between them both , and withall had this to add farther , that their arms added that assistance , without which the presbyterians could never have been able to have brought themselves into a condition , to have enjoyed that liberty as to themselves , which the other sects by their joynt concurrence did put them into a condition to grant , and therefore very well deserved to have received from them . but in those dayes , their dear brethren , to whom they were much beholding for their joynt concurrence in prayers and arms ; their mutual contributions of blood and treasure , and whom at present they smile most sweetly upon , did receive the harshest usage which was in their power to give them , and it was no small matter of publick complaint , that they were not permitted to handle them with much greater roughness : to omit many others there then came out a book entituled , wholesome severity reconciled with christian liberty , licensed by ia. cranford , wherein we are told , that liberty of heresie and schism is no part of the liberty of conscience which christ hath purchased for us , but that under these fair colours and handsome pretexts sectaries infuse their poyson , their pernicious , god-provoking ; truth-defacing , church-ruinating and state-shaking toleration . to which author i shall only add the more publick testimony to the truth of iesus christ , and to our solemn league and covenant , as also against the errours , heresies , blasphemies of these times , and the toleration of them , subscribed by the ministers of christ within the province of london , december 14. 1647. which i have already mentioned , but in this part of the argument shall insist something more largely upon ; because they were such a body of men as were looked upon as very considerable , and sufficiently qualified to speak the sence of their whole party to great advantage : and besides that some of them are yet living and preachers at this day to the separated congregations about the town . now i would ●ain know of these gentlemen , whether they are of the same judgment now about toleration , as they were then ? if they are , then methinks they should do very well to declare it , and so much the rather , because that by their behaviour one would guess that their minds were altered ; in that they do so far comply as to joyn counsels and interests with those whom formerly they bore testimony against : again , if they are of the same mind about toleration now as they were formerly ; then all the under sects have great cause in time to beware of them , ought to look upon them as very false brethren , who want nothing but opportunity to take away that liberty which now indeed is common to them with the rest of their brethren , but they never intended it for any but themselves . and on the other side , if they are not of the same mind about toleration now as they were formerly ; then they ought in all honesty to declare to the world how much they were formerly mistaken , in that they raised such fearful outcries against that toleration which is an innocent and an useful thing ; the giving of which is ( as it is now said ) the duty and interest of all government , is indeed no other than the permitting to us that liberty with which christ made us free , or rather , which is the right of nature , the common birth right of all mankind . in the preface to the aforesaid testimony they tell us of the spreading heresies and cursed blasphemies of those times , which had born down the authority of the scriptures and our solemn league and covenant ( very fitly joynned : ) and then they add , but above all our souls are wounded to think with wha● hope and industry , a toleration of all these evils is endeavoured , and with what a wellcomed boldness sundry odious hereticks , which in other places have been banished and branded with infamy , do vent their poysonous opinions amongst us ; as if they intended to make england a common receptacle of all the sinful dregs of foreign countries as well as former ages , pag. 29. as if all the errours , heresies , sects , schisms , divisions , looseness , prophaneness , and breach of covenant among us , were small matters ; what secret and publick endeavours , projects , methods and practices are there amongst us to bring in an universal , boundless , lawless , abominable and intolerable toleration , to the filling up of the measure of our iniquities , and the pulling down god's fierce indignation upon this nation , and pag. 30. instead of vnity and vniformity in matters of religion , we are torn in pieces with destructive schisms , separations , divisions , and subdivisions , &c. and instead of extirpation of heresie , schism , prophaneness , we have such an impudent and general inundation of all these evils , that multitudes are not ashamed to press and plead for a publick , formal , vniversal toleration . and having thus shewed how great their zeal was in this case , i shall likewise lay down their reasons for it , which with great earnestness they did express in these following words , pag. 32. a publick and a general toleration will prove an hideous and complexive evil of most dangerous and mischievous consequence , if ever ( which god forbid ) it should be consented to by authority , for hereby , first , the glory of the most high god , will be laid in the very dust ; secondly , the truth of christ , yea all the fundamentals of faith will be r●●ed to the very ground ; thirdly , all christ's ordinances , offices , worship , religion , yea and the very power of godliness will be utterly overthro●● ; fourthly , thousands , and ten thousands of poor souls which christ hath ransomed with his own blood , shall be hereby betrayed , seduced , and endangered to be undone to all eternity . fifthly , magistracy and ministry , and with them all religious , and comely order in the church and commonwealth will be plucked up by the very roots . sixthly , reformation in religion , in doctrine , worship , discipline and government shall be utterly made voyd . seventhly , england shall be swallowed up with sects , schisms , divisions , disorders , and confusions , and become an odious sink , and a common rec●ptacle of all the prodigious errours , lies , heresies , and blasphemies , libertinism and profaneness in the world ; so that rome it self shall not be a more odious puddle and cage of all abominatio●s and uncleannesses . eighthly , the godly shall sit down and lament among us . ninethly , the wicked shall rise up and insult over us . tenthly , all the nations about us shall be amazed at us . eleventhly , all the reformed churches shall be ashamed to own us , they shall all cry out against us ; is this england that covenanted and swore to the most high god such a reformation and extirpation of popery , prelacy , superstition , heresie , schism , prophaneness , and whatever shall be found contrary to sound doctrine , and the power of godliness , and after so long a travel hath she brought forth an hideous monster of toleration ? and again , pag. 33. hath england heretofore had such a large share of gospel-enjoyments ; and doth she now render to the lord for all his benefits a detestable toleration ? dost thou thus reward the lord , o foolish england and unwise ? twelfthly , and to conclude , seeing we have just cause to fear , that if this toleration be entertained among us , the righteous god of heaven and earth will be provoked to plague us yet seven times more , and at last to translate his very gospel and kingdom from us unto another nation : therefore upon all these considerations , we the ministers of iesus christ do hereby testifie to all our flocks , to all the kingdom , to all the reformed churches , as our great dislike of prelacy , erastianism , brownism and independency ; so our utter abhorrency of anti-scripturism , popery , arri●nism , socinianism , arminianism , antinomianism , anabaptism , libertinism , and familism , with all such like , now too rife among us . it were endless to transcribe all which hath been said by the presbyterians against toleration ; and therefore it is not a little strange , how much for some years they have endeavoured after it : but sure their separating brethren cannot be so forgetful of what hath been but so very lately past , as not to cast a very watchful eye over them , to suspect their kindness , and be hugely jealous of their present concurrence with them ; it being not very credible , that their moderation is greater than formerly , and that which makes all the difference is no other thing than this , that their power is not altogether so great . it hath been no unusual thing in the world for men to unite in their endeavours in order to very differing ends ; to dissemble for a while their mutual resentments , and to have less kindness for those very persons they do cabal with , than for those whom they do cabal against . a common interest for a while keeps them close together , and out of that they each hope for their particular advantages ; and both sides hug and applaud inwardly their own arts and dexterity , in that they see the way chalked out how they shall be able to supplant their friends , as well as ruine their enemies . thus the presbyterians may at present joyn their endeavours in attaining that liberty , which they hope in time to take away , not only from those whom they at present desire to grant it , but likewise from those who now enjoy it together with them : the independents , anabaptists , &c. must needs remember how the presbyterians bore testimony against that toleration of them which they could not hinder : they could no more endure those who fought on their side to dissent from them , than they could those who fought against them . remember ( gentlemen ) you all fought for liberty of conscience ; and yet your fellow-soldiers would not allow you that which you shed your blood for , and for their own obtaining of which , they were much more beholding to your arms than to their own . the pretences of all the differing sorts of dissenters are so vastly distant , as to be utterly inconsistent ; and whatever correspondence is between them at present , it ought not to be looked upon , either by themselves or any one else , as any union or agreement which is of late made between them , but merely as a combination against that settlement which they are all weary of ; and as soon as ever that is again overthrown , we shall then see that all their old quarrels will return as formerly : the tender consciences of divers sizes will immediatly fall as foully upon one another as ever they did : presbytery will be stiled the yoke of antichrist , and independency the mother of confusion ; the one will be stiled egypt , and the other , babel . if any particular sect among them doth desire indulgence , and means nothing else besides a bare permission to serve god in its own way : if there were nothing else but this in the case , its request then would with all submission be put up single and by it self ; that so an account might be taken both of the principles and of the persons , how innocent the one , and how peaceable the other ; and what influence either of them are like to have upon the present settlement either of church or state : and surely it ought not to be looked upon either as unreasonable or assuming , if the government doth look upon it self as concerned to have a great regard to it self both in point of duty and in point of safety . and in such an enquiry as this , the quality , numbers , and temper of the petitioners for such indulgence are of no small consideration . and this way of procedure , that each single sect should speak by and for its self , and state its own particular case , is methinks the fairest course which can be taken ; and such a one as those dissenters , who are conscious to themselves of no ill meaning , should look upon as highly advisable for their own sakes : it being very obvious to the most ordinary prudence , that it may be frequently advisable upon divers particular and material considerations , to indulge some kinds of liberty to such and such sorts of dissenters , which is by no means fit to allow to others ; much less to allow promiscuously to all . but to take that course which they have always done since his majesties restauration , that they should all joyn in a common cry , as if they had one common cause , is very suspicious ; especially considering that they are divided among themselves in this very point of liberty of conscience , notwithstanding their unanimity in calling for it . some rumours have of late been spread indeed all over the town concerning such a kind of comprehension as should leave no room for toleration : how well grounded such reports have been i will not undertake ; it is but in vain to make an uncertain guess at what kind of proposals may possibly be offered by some persons ; and to fancy at all adventures who they are or may be who are in any likelihood to be concluded by them . but because it is said publickly enough and by no mean persons , that the presbyterians , at least the chief and leading men among them ▪ are ready now to enter into the church , upon some reasonable abatements to be made unto them : and when they are once gained , the other sects will not be considerable enough to expect , that any toleration should be allowed unto them . if this be the case , as it is by some of themselves pretended to be , then the case is much altered from what it lately was : reformed christianity in its latitude , which came out in 1667. and the defence of it in 1668. are express , not 〈…〉 only for comprehension but likewise for toleration , and besides that for a connivence also . and a later treatise entituled , indulgence not to be refused ; comprehension humbly desired , which came out 1672. is express for toleration ; and against that part of his design he makes this objection : the presbyterians in former times wrote and preached against toleration and indulgence , and if they do now fall in with it , they contradict themselves . to this he answers , that some did , some did not ; and there was a reason then which ceaseth now : and besides , many of those who declared against such a toleration are dead and gone , and there are others postnati to those times who now suffer , p. 11 , 12. so that it seems , these two advocates for the comprehension were for a toleration . if the minds of these men be changed since that time , it were not unfit that they should give publick notice of it , especially for this reason : it is well known , that in the private discourses and in their printed books , the people have been moved to express much pity toward the dissenters , and not a few exasperated against the government by the perpetual noise of persecution , liberty , conscience , moderation , forbearance , tenderness , compassion , indulgence ; and that this hath not been the peculiar phrases of such or such a particular sect , but the common language of all of them . now if this device of comprehension do take place , then all those pleas as to all parties but one will remain as formerly but if the presbyterians do really intend to come into the church now , upon such & such abatements to be made unto them , and finally and for ever to shake hands with their old brethren ; it were but reasonable to expect that they should do these two things : first , that in their present meeting-houses they should use so much of the common-prayer as they can lawfully , and mean hereafter to use , and observe so many of the orders and ceremonies of the church , as they are perswaded of the innocency of ; and take the first opportunity of declaring to their hearers their resolutions of conformity , thereby to prepare them to conform likewise : secondly , they should declare , as formerly , against liberty of conscience , as a thing which they do by no means approve , and are resolved never hereafter to have any thing to do with . if , i say , these men do desire that any publick distinction should be made between them and other dissenters , they themselves should do well to own such a distinction ; if we go into their conventicles we cannot find any such great difference in the way of worship between the presbyterians and others , as thence to be able to distinguish them . if we go into their company their complaints are much of the same strain , and not seldom in the same syllables . if there are any among them ( as it is to be hoped there are ) who are sincere , modest , and peaceable , who mean better than their neighbours ; the law cannot help it if they suffer for being taken in bad company : it is not unlikely that they might have fared much better themselves if they had not had such partakers ; their own case might have been looked upon as pitiable , if they had not joyned with such dangerous adherents . if this course ( i say ) were taken , that each sect did urge its own plea single , by and for it self , there were then some ground for charity , and we might possibly have some hope , that their aims looked no higher than an indulgence : and by so inoffensive a way of asking favour , authority would have some ground whereupon to be perswaded , that they would use any favour which they could obtain with the very same modesty with which they do desire it : but when they shall all unite with a joynt consent in one and the same clamour for that very demand , about which themselves neither ever did , nor ever can agree ; and within which pretence no one name is wide enough to comprehend them , besides that of non-conformity , viz. dissenters from the present constitution : of which dissent it is more than possible to alledge , not only divers , but contrary reasons , and doth only tell us what it is they would not have , but not at all what they would have . it is but too evident , that indulgence is not the only thing aimed at , but is only proposed in order to something else ; and the plausible name of conscience may upon these terms be suspected to be only a handsome artifice whereby to disguise that combination , which no other word is solemn enough to authorize , or of compass large enough to be a sufficient shelter for ; and by which they hope to become a match for some common enemy : and accordingly as their success doth chance to happen in that , each sect doth flatter it self with the particular advantages to be reaped from it . and in this i am the more confirmed , because that the late act of parliament against conventicles , which hath been the matter of so much lamentation and complaint , hath been so tender , even of the needless scruples of conscience , as to allow these men their own fancies in their way of worship in their own families , and four of their neighbours to joyn with them : but these good men are persecuted , if they are only tolerated ; they lose their ends unless they make proselytes , and have opportunities to form themselves into parties . but if this plea of conscience be so very omnipotent , as that it must bear all things down before it , and no other consideration whatever must in the least presume to stand in its way : suppose the case should so happen , as that this plea should become so utterly inconsistent with it self , as that it is impossible but that in one respect or other , it must necessarily be over-ruled ; and this is a case which may occurr very frequently : as for example , suppose that my conscience tells me , that i ought to be of this or that opinion , and not only so , but that i am obliged not only to entertain it my self , but withall to vent and propagate it to others ; and on the contrary , the magistrates conscience tells him , that he is appointed by god to be a keeper of both the tables , and that it is his duty to take care not only of peace , but truth ; and the doctrines which i am so very fond of are not only erroneous , but likewise of very ill consequence , both as to the souls of men and to the publick peace ; and that to so high a degree , as that he is firmly perswaded , and as he really believes and thinks himself able to give a very good account upon weighty grounds , that he should be much wanting , both to the duty which he oweth to god , and the care which he ought to take of his people , both as to their temporal and eternal welfare , if he doth not make use of his authority in the restraining me from venting any such pernicious doctrines within his dominions . what now is to be done in this case ? my conscience tells me , that i am obliged to preach such and such doctrines , as being precious and soul-saving ones , the truths of god and gospel-discoveries ; the king's conscience tells him , that they are the doctrines of devils ( as saint paul did upon occasion declare some doctrines to be ) and that he ought not to give me liberty to preach any such in his kingdom : what now is to be done in this case ? here is conscience on both sides ; the king is as firmly perswaded as i am , and thinks himself as well informed as i either am or can be ; if the king restrains me from preaching after my own way , then i cry out that he is a persecutor : he replies , that i am a seducer , nay , a blasphemer , and he neither will nor ought to suffer any such in his countries ; either his conscience or mine must over-rule ; both cannot be satisfied ; one or other must necessarily either yield or alter ; or else i must preach , and he must punish , and the almighty must at his own time be judge between us ; and in the mean time as to all the purposes of this world , the king's conscience hath reason to expect to be more authoritative than mine , and withall he is concerned to take care both of himself and all other men , to judge both as to his own particular , and likewise as to the concerns of his whole nation . if it be replied in this case , that the king's conscience ought to yield , because it is an errour in him to think that he is at all concerned in points of this nature ; that religion is no part of his care , his business is only to look after the civil government , and the publick peace ( a pretence frequently insisted on : ) the answer to this is very plain , and might easily be enlarged upon , as to many particulars , i shall only mention these two things ; first , that religion hath a very great influence upon civil government , and the publick peace ; and therefore if so be , that the civil government and the publick peace be within his care ; then religion ought by no means to be excluded from it , as having so great an influence upon it . in the next place , as to the pretence that the magistrate is in an errour , if he looks upon himself as concerned in this particular ; it is more than possible , that that very pretence will upon examination appear to be the greater errour : and in general the subject is no more free from errour than the soveraign . and this need not seem news to us of this age and nation ; and to speak the truth , it is no easie matter to find out any age or nation , where it hath not been sadly evidenced , that seducers will quickly be found in great abundance , where liberty hath been given for the people to be seduced by them : and after all this , it will be no impossible task to make out , that magistrates are obliged not only in interest , but likewise in point of conscience , to have a great care of religion ; and to use that authority which they received from god , so far to the honour of him who gave it , as by no means to suffer his truths to lie all openly exposed to all the lusts , designs , and mistakes of men ; to all the knavery and all the folly of every one who is either willing to deceive , or liable to be deceived . and of this i shall now endeavour to give a brief account both from reason and scripture , the necessity of the thing , and the authority both of the old and new testament . but here a great many rubs are thrown in our way , by the fore-mentioned author of liberty of conscience upon its true and proper grounds asserted and vindicated : proving that no prince nor state ought by force to compel men to any part of the doctrine , worship or discipline of the gospel . london , printed in the year 1668. which methinks is not very different from the doctrine of the blody tenent dedicated to both houses of parliament in the year 1644. it is the will and command of god , that ( since the coming of his son iesus ) a permission of the most paganish , iewish , turkish , or antichristian consciences and worships be granted to all men in all nations and countries . but whatever the assertion of our author is either in it self , or in its consequence , i shall briefly enquire into the arguments he brings for it . pag. 25. that the civil and ecclesiastical power are things perfectly in themselves distinct , and ought in their excercise to be kept so , &c. and , the magistrate hath ways , such as christ thought sufficient , to promote the good of religion , and propagating the growth of the gospel , without drawing the civil sword , which will make no more impression in spiritual concerns , than it will do upon a ghost which hath no real body , &c. and p. 28. to use force in religion is wholly unlawful in any hand whatever ; because it is by no means appointed by christ to bring about any gospel-end : for the magistrate to enforce the laws of the gospel by temporal power , or to compel men into the gospel by such a power , is to act without the least precept or precedent ; to induce an engine to execute the gospel contrary to the nature of christs kingdom ( which is not of this world ) and contrary to the nature of all gospel-institutions . doth not paul positively deliver this , that the weapons of the gospel are not carnal but spiritual , and mighty thorough god : the sword of the spirit is the weapon by which christ doth all ; yea , by which he will destroy antichrist , the greatest gospel-enemy the world hath produced . the sum of which is briefly this : 1. that force is a very incompetent method to be used in matters of belief and perswasion : 2. that it is unlawful . 1. because christ hath no where commanded it , we have neither precept nor precedent for it : 2. because st. paul hath plainly forbid it , where he says that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal . now , as to these suggestions which do frequently recurr in this question , i shall at present only briefly touch upon them , premising this , that our author , like to all the rest who have dealt in this cause , is as much concern'd to answer these and all the rest of his arguments against using the secular interposition in matters of belief , as any of those he writes against ; because he himself doth very much approve and commend such interposition where he likes the cause in behalf of which it is made use of . now , though this may seem strange , because it is directly contrary to his whole book , yet it is very plain ; and i shall not expect to be believed upon my bare word , but desire the author himself , or any one besides who makes a doubt of it , to consider these words which we have pag. 24. constantine and the christian emperours after him , till the church of rome had cheated them into subjection , took upon them the care and oversight of all religious things : among our selves we reap the advantage of our kings and princes care and concern in that enjoyment we have of the protestant religion . now this assertion of that learned gentleman is evidently true ; but then it happens here as it useth in the other discourses for toleration : when the evidence of truth hath forced from them one reasonable concession , that one concession doth plainly give away from them nothing less than their whole cause : for , pray tell me , constantine and the christian emperours are here commended for their care and oversight in religious things ; and so our own kings for securing to us the protestant religion : now was not all this done by laws and penalties , and the civil sword , and was there any possibility of having it done any other way ? this being premised , as to the exceptions themselves , i briefly say this ; if no force is to be used in matters of religion , because it is an incompetent method , as being able to reach only to the body and estate , but is by much too weak to reach unto the mind ; this is a difficulty not at all peculiar to the gospel , but common to that with all other dispensations . the mind of a man was as much a spirit under the law as it can be now ; and the sword was made of as meer matter in those days , as it can be in these : and therefore thus far the case is one and the same . as to the second exception , that all force is now unlawful , because christ hath not commanded it , they have been told , and have had it proved to them too in many parts of the puritan controversie , that many things are lawful which there is no particular command for ; that a thing becomes unlawful , not by being not commanded , but by being forbidden : and this leads me directly to the third exception , that all force is plainly forbidden by st. paul , when he says , 2 cor. 10. v. 4. that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal . now this saying of the apostle is so far from being a hibition of all coercion in the affairs of religion , that it doth plainly refer to a very great coercion , which himself did in these very words threaten for to use , viz. the censures of the church in such a manner as to carry temporal penalties along with them , in manner miraculous , visible and extraordinary : and therefore it followeth in the next words , that those weapons which in themselves might be supposed weak , yet if they were better looked into would be found to have a strength from god , which they had not from themselves ; for they were not meerly carnal , but mighty through god for the bringing down strong holds : and to render it clear that these words have a penal meaning in them , it follows , that these weapons are able to cast down imaginations , and every high thought that exalteth it self against the knowledge of god , and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of christ : and to put it out of all doubt , that those weapons had a coercive power in them , the apostle adds , in a stile much beyond exhortation and advice , nay , much beyond a bare reproof , that in the strength of them he would revenge all disobedience . and as for the last most pressing and convincing consideration , that if force was to be used in any affair of religion at all , it was of all others the most to be justified in order to the pulling down of antichrist , the greatest of all other gospel-enemies : but even in that case it ought not to be used , and therefore most certainly not in any other ; the sword of the spirit being the only weapon by which christ will destroy antichrist , the greatest gospel-enemy which the world hath produced . i shall not here take an advantage which i have already mentioned , that the sword of the spirit doth in scripture signifie something which carries coercion along with it ; but shall be contented that that word be understood in the common meaning of it : and upon that supposition i believe that this assertion of this learned gentleman will scarce pass for true doctrine in the separated congregations ; i am sure that there was a time when it would not have done so , and i never yet heard that in this point their minds were altered : how unlawful soever it may be for the magistrate to make use of the civil sword in a cause of religion ; i am sure that it hath been often preached as a great gospel duty , though in a rebellion , to make use of the military one . we have not forgot how often the zeal of the common people was inflamed against the king , by telling them that the cause then fought for was the cause of god , that their persons and estates were all too little to be sacrificed in this concern of religion , and the question really was , whether christ or anti-christ should be king ? and so i return to our author . amongst all the arguments which are brought to prove the compulsory power of the magistrate under the gospel , the greatest weight is laid upon the practice of the kings of israel and judah , and what they did under the law in compelling men to the worship of god then established . in the due consideration whereof we shall find the truth in hand no wayes invalidated , and that what was then done by the kings of israel and judah , cannot reasonably be now made a rule to magistrates under the gospel : and that the analogy will no way hold , may be made appear both from the different station and posture those kings were in from all magistrates now , and also from the different condition of the church then and now , and many circumstances peculiarly relating to both . first , the worship and policy of the jews , being in it self typical , and representative of what was to come hereafter , their government was likewise so , and in their kings very eminently . secondly , god was pleased in those times upon all eminent occasions of reformation in his worship and proceedings of that nature to send prophets to declare his positive mind , and to put an end to all doubts , that could be about such things : nay , some of the kings themselves were prophets immediately inspired , and did not only take care of the worship established by moses , but did themselves by divine authority bring in things of a new institution into the worship of god. thus david did , and solomon in bringing musick into the temple , and setling the courses of the priests , and were divinely inspired to write part of the holy scriptures : no magistrate now can pretend to any such power in themselves , nor have they any such extraordinary direction to guide them ; but are punctually obliged to whatever christ hath revealed in the gospel : and therefore in this respect the analogy holds no way good . the sum of all which is , that no argument ought to be drawn from the examples of the kings of israel or iudah , whereby to prove the power of any present magistrates over the affairs of religion ; by reason of the great difference between those magistrates and ours , especially in these two respects : first , that they were typical : secondly , that in such cases they had either prophets sent to them , or themselves were divinely inspired . and in this part of the argument , if i had a mind to enlarge farther than i needs must , i believe that i should find it an easie matter , to find our authour to have committed sundry mistakes in assigning the difference between the state of the church , and the condition of magistrates , as it was under the law ; i shall not dispute whether the law , fulness of the magistrate's using coercive power under the law was typical of this , that such coercive power should not be lawful under the times of the gospel : but in the second place i shall venture to say this , that several of the constitutions made by the iewish kings , were such as stood in no need either of direction from prophets commissioned for that purpose , or any immediate inspiration given in to them themselves ; and in this part of the debate i shall go no farther than the instances which our author here layes down , of bringing musick into the temple , the setling of the priests courses , two things certainly which without inspiration , common prudence would abundantly serve to assist any man in : but to shew how little need there is to insist upon any thing of this , i shall produce an instance of the magistrates coercive power in matters of religion , which shall not be liable to any of all these , however frivolous exceptions , as having in it not any thing peculiar to the ordinances of moses . and i shall fetch it out of the book of iob chap. 31. v. 26 , 27 , 28. if i beheld the sun when it shined , or the moon walking in brightness , and my heart hath been secretly enticed , or my mouth hath kissed my hand , this also were an iniquity to be punished by the iudges , &c. here now is an offence purely spiritual , a crime meerly against religion , not any otherwise at all against the state , or any particular member of it ; a sin indeed it was against god , but such an one as did consist in a meer mistake about him , and such a mistake as was in that age and part of the world very frequently committed ; and yet it is said to be an iniquity to be punished by the iudges . so that it seems in the dayes of iob , the civil magistrate was thought to have in himself a power , and was concerned to look upon it as a duty incumbent upon himself , to take care not only of the safety of himself and his people , but likewise to look after the honour of almighty god. now whatever may be pretended for that natural liberty , which every man is now a-dayes supposed to have a full right to , to be permitted the enjoyment of his own way of worship , we do find that things of this nature were before the dayes of moses , and without relation to any of his laws , under the restraint and authority of superiours , who were to be in this as well as in any other affairs , not only guides but governours . i suppose that without breach of modesty , a man may with some confidence affirm , that if it had not been within the due bounds of that power which of right did belong to abraham , that it would never have been recorded for his everlasting honour by god himself , that he would command his children and houshold after him to keep the way of the lord , not only advise or exhort , but command , as we have it , gen. 18. 19. and abraham's family was so large , as that gen. 23. 6. he is stiled a mighty prince . and in this place we are to consider that it is very plain , that every one of all those arguments , which do assert liberty of conscience by way of right so far as to exempt religion from the authority of the magistrate , doe , at least with equal force exempt it from the authority of parents , masters , or who ever else besides : for this must needs be very evident , that if this liberty be such a natural indefeasable right as that no humane power whatever can take it away from us , then as the regal power cannot take it away ; so for the same reason neither can the paternal or despotical : nay farther , if so be that these pretenders are in the right , and that such a liberty in matters of religion , and the profession of that liberty be one part of liberty , with which christ hath made us free , and which we are accordingly called upon to stand fast in , as being purchased for us by our redeemer's blood , then the same argument doth return upon us again at least with equal , if not with greater force ; for as the king ought not to deprive us of any degree of that liberty with which christ made us free ; so neither ought any parent or master presume to do any such thing ; and liberty of conscience must upon these terms receive as little interruption in families as in kingdoms : no imposition must upon these terms be endured in any house , school , or colledge , as to forms or hours of prayer , no words , no nor no gestures must be prescribed ; every child or servant hath the free liberty to remonstrate in behalf of this invaluable and frequently insisted on priviledge , that no man must dare to determine what christ hath left free , for in christ there is no difference of any age or quality , high and low in him are all alike . the chief , if not only ground of mistake in this particular is this , that in the new testament we have not an example of a civil magistrate exercising his civil power in defence of the gospel : now that which renders this exception utterly insignificant , is this , that in the new testament we do not read of any civil magistrate who was a christian. and nothing can be plainer than this , that the magistrates which then were did look upon religion as a thing within their cognizance , and accordingly , as they did not believe the doctrine of the gospel to be true , they did call them to account who did either profess or propogate it : and if this had been one alteration which the gospel had brought into the world , that from henceforth religion , contrary to the sentiments of all former ages , should be absolutely exempt from the cognizance of any magistrate , and that every man's conscience was so sacred , as that god alone was fit to be the judge of it ; it is not a little to be wondred at , that in this new epocha and strange alteration of affairs , the apostles did take no manner of notic● of this change , and when they had so fair opportunities and proper seasons ; as when they themselves were called in question about matters of religion , did never in the least insert this in their apologies , that religion was no part of the civil magistrates business : when st. paul was questioned about heresie , he made no such exception against the tribunal he was called before ; that heresie was a thing which they had nothing to do to enquire about , but gave them an account that the doctrine which he preached was not heresie . and that we may root up the very foundation of all mistakes in this matter , it is very evident , that among all the precepts , which we meet with in the new testament , concerning moderation , condescention , bearing with one anothers infirmities , it is very evident , that not any one of them hath any manner of relation to our great idol of liberty of conscience ; they being plainly given to private persons , & many times in relation only to their own passions , and where not so limited to certain cases , occasional emergencies , and with a clear reference to their not having as yet time or opportunity of being sufficiently instructed : but as for the governours of the church they are sufficiently called upon to watch over their respective flocks , and to take care that wolves do not break in upon them , they are called upon to exercise the whole power with which they were intrusted , viz. the power of excommunication , a thing which comes so near the question now in debate , that it was not seldom assisted with temporal penalties : and though it is often suggested into his argument , that the outward sword can act no more upon the mind of men than upon a ghost , yet st. paul , 1 cor. 5. 5. was of the opinion , that the destruction of the flesh ( a phrase well known to signifie diseases , and such like inflictions on the body ) was a very likely method by which the spirit might at length come to be saved . the soul and the body though of a distant nature have so near an union , such common interests , and so great an influence one upon another , that what doth affect the one , the other cannot choose but be so far concerned in , as at the least to consider it : and this is obvious to the most ordinary experience , and hath seldom failed of a great effect , whenever it hath been made trial of . and if it were not so , it would not only supercede all correction in religious affairs , but in civil ones likewise . now that any such kind of liberty of conscience was brought into the world by the revelation of the gospel , as that every one should henceforward without control profess and propagate what opinion soever he either did really or would pretend to believe , i take to be a thing so far from being according to to the rule of the new testament , that i must profess my self to be very much mistaken , if so be that this thing be not contrary not only to some few texts , but to a considerable part of the whole design of it . in the 4th of the ephes. v. 14. we read of several orders and degrees of men instituted and appointed for this very purpose , that they might take care of the perfecting the saints , the work of the ministry , the edifying the body of christ ; that we be henceforth no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine , by the slight of men and cunning crastiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive . now is it credible that an unbounded licence for all manner of opinions , was ever intended by st. paul to be a thing to be looked upon , as being according to the mind of christ ; who tells us of a whole order of men appointed by christ , whose duty it should be to take care , that men should not be tossed to and fro , and carried about with every wind of doctrine . and this consideration will be of so much the greater force both as to the care which ought to be taken of souls , and withal as to the ends of government , and all the purposes of humane life : if we do but keep in mind the caution which is here given us by the apostle , that every thing is not gold that glisters ; that fair pretences may have very ill designs lodged under them : the being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine is it self certainly a very great evil and of very ill consequence . but the deluded persons themselves have one good preservative against it , when they are by such an infallible authority forewarn'd and assured , that this doth frequently come to pass by the slight of men and the cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive : now in this case i would appeal to common sense , whether it be a thing adviseable upon the scores either of piety or prudence , that such deceivers should have an unbounded liberty , to seduce all those whom at any time they shall be able to impose upon ? it is plain that st. paul was so far from being of this mind , that he calls upon the ecclesiastical officers in this case to make use of the highest censures which they were entrusted with , i wish they were cut off that trouble you , gal. 5. 12. now i would fain know whether when this which our apostle doth advise is done , that according to the rules of scripture , any one or more are cast out of the communion of the church upon the account of corruption either in doctrine or manners , it be agreeable to common sense , that this person or persons , so cast out of the church according to the rules above supposed , should in the same kingdom , nay , in the same parish , have a right to set up another ? that being cut off as a rotten member from one church , he may from thence assume the privilege to create himself the pastour of another , which he no doubt will be forward enough to tell us is a much purer one . now the want of exercising the censures of the church in this very case of false doctrine we find to be a thing highly blame-worthy , rev. 2. 14. where it is said to the angel of the church of pergamus , i have a few things against thee , because thou hast them who hold the doctrine of balaam ; and ver. 15. thou hast them who hold the doctrine of the nicolaitans : now the governour of this church is not charged in the least that he himself did hold these false doctrines , but that there are those within his communion who do hold them ; as again the complaint is renewed , v. 20. to another angel , i have a few things against thee , because thou sufferest that woman iezebel , which calleth her self a prophetess , to teach and seduce my servants to commit fornication , and to eat things sacrificed to idols . from all which it is very plain , that this natural or christian right of propagating whatever opinion men do chance , or fancy , or pretend to be of , was a thing which st. iohn was utterly unacquainted with , and blames the governours of the church for suffering a false prophetess to teach and seduce the souls committed to their charge . and let any reasonable man consider with himself , whether the condition of the common people be not lamentably expos'd to innumerable and unaccountable dangers , if so be that by publick authority they shall lie exposed to every one to deceive , who can and will. st. paul , 2 ti , . 2. 17. gives us notice of some hereticks of his time , whose words do eat as doth a canker ; he names the men and the doctrines , hymeneus and philetus , who say that the resurrection is past already & overthrow the faith of some : and this doctrine of theirs by the benefit of liberty of conscience hath been preached since their days ; and as often soever as that time shall come which st. paul doth so much bewail , 2 tim. 4. 3. that men will not endure sound doctrine , but after their own lusts heap to themselves teachers , having itching ears . authority will be found useful as well as instruction , and government be needful as well as exhortation . in the second epistle of st. peter , c. 2. v. 1 , 2 , 3. we read of false prophets and false teachers who shall priv●ly bring in damnable heresies ; the consequence of which is there said to be very dreadful both to themselves and others , they shall bring upon themselves swift destruction : but this is not all , for this kind of infection is not only fatal but contagious ; as it is expressed , v. 2. many shall follow their pernitious ways . now if errours are so pernicious to the souls of men , and withal of a very spreading nature , is it a thing advisable that there should be an unbounded licence for entertaining and receiving , spreading and propagating them ? and this consideration will appear evidently to be the more forcible , if we withal remember , that it is more than possible , that doctrines in themselves false , may be known to be false by the men who teach them ; and with great art and demureness many may endeavour to perswade others to those things of which themselves are not really perswaded . and let no man look upon this as any harsh or uncharitable censure of mine ; for it is so far from being a suggestion of mine , that it is in express terms taught by the apostle , v. 3. thorough covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you : so that heresie may be a solemn way of setting up for a cheat ; separation a very gainful trade ; the getting a meeting-house , a religious method of setting up a shop , where the more numerous and ignorant his auditors ( otherwise called his chapmen ) are , so much the more it is in his power to put off what wares he will , and to set what prices he pleaseth upon them . and thus i think i have made it somewhat plain , from the new testament , that that liberty of conscience , which of late hath so often been called for , is nothing like any part of that christian liberty which the writers of that book did ever think of ; that they themselves did exercise , and require of others to exercise the whole ecclesiastical power in points of doctrine as well as manners ; and that was the whole power they were intrusted with ; that this power of theirs , though in it self wholly spiritual , was yet by an immediate interposition of god attended upon with temporal penalties , and by the apostles known and intended so to be . so that in this case it happened to them in vindicating their authority , as it did in another in the exercise of their charity ; they could not give the poor man who begged at the gate of the temple money ; but they could give him the use of his limbs ; they had no silver nor gold , but what was much better they had ; they could say , rise up and walk : so in this case they had not in those days the sword of the magistrate ; but when it was seasonable they made it evident , that the want of that was abundantly supplied by the sword of god. now all this being premised , there is very little need certainly for men to require a particular express precept for the power of the civil magistrate in matters of religion ; seing the authority of the civil magistrate over the affairs which related to the worship of god was acknowledg'd and exercised over all the world ; the original of which practice we find to be of as early date as magistracy it self . it is notorious , that the kingly and the priestly office was of old in one and the same person ; and when by the appointment of god , they came to be separated , there is not the least shew that this separation was made out of any favour to liberty of conscience ; nor the least in●●●uation that holy things should for all ages and dispensations to come be looked upon as no part of the princes care : nay , this is so far from being any thing like the case , that in that very nation , wherein that separation was made , the civil power did all along retain the right and did frequently use that right of his in interposing authoritatively in religious affairs ▪ and he did do this both by the appointment of god , and at other times without any especial appointment but by his original right of magistracy , when there was an exig●●●y of affairs which did require it ; nay , and in matters of outward order , and the more decent celebration of divine offices , he did not always tie himself to the express rule of the written word , but according to his own prudence ; and what he did thus without especial commission is in scripture recorded with great approbation . the instances are too well known to stand in need of being insisted on . our forementioned author tells us , p. 13. that a magistrate , by becoming a christian , hath no addition of power to what he had before , which is readily granted him ; let him have but so much , and he will stand in need of no more . they who exempt all affairs of religion from the authority of the magistrate must prove that christ did take much from his authority , viz. the whole cognizance of sacred things , a power known to have been used by jews as well as gentiles . and however the clergy have been frequently and falsly traduced in this particular , that in order to ends of the●● own they have flattered princes with a power , which really did not belong to them . it is well known that the writers of politicks have asserted this prerogative of princes as earnestly as the divines have done : instances would here be endless ▪ i shall therefore shew you the thing granted by a known scholar , but no divine by profession , and that is the excellent grotius , omnes ( saith he ) qui de republica aliquid lectu dignum scripsêre , hoc jus in sacra non partem summi imperii , sed etiam potissimam atque praecipuam vocant , de imperio , c. 1. p. 14. now i must needs confess that our forementioned author doth , p. 22 , 23. not only assert the princes power in matters of religion , but proves it very well ; and at last concludes , that it is a great weakness to think otherwise : but then he adds , p. 24. that the prince must by no means in this case use the sword ; and having said this , he seems a little suspicious , as if that limitation had quite spoiled his whole concession , as indeed it doth . but his wonted courage doth immediately return again ; nor need it see● strange that the magistrate should have the care and oversight of that where he is not to use the temporal power , &c. now , i think , it is not easie to be imagined what effectual care the magistrate can take but that ; our author tells us indeed of another way , viz. he is to see it done by the spiritual means which christ hath appointed , p. 24. but if this be all which he may do , this may be too little : for suppose those spiritual weapons do meet with such persons , who do slight , undervalue and stand in open defiance of them ; doth all that concern and care , which our author , but one page before , asserts the magistrate to be intrusted with , in looking after the honour of god and the souls of men , amount to no more but barely this , that he is to see the spiritual censures of the church made use of ; and if men have no more religion than to despise and laugh at them , he is to stand still and look on while they are so doing ? this learned gentleman confesseth and contends for it , that the magistrate is in his station bound to take care of gods honour , p. 23. and yet thoroughout his whole book he is ever afterward very zealous , that he must by no means use the sword in order to it : now , how a magistrate can in his station act , where this is interdicted him , is a thing not easily apprehended . when a magistrate , as such , declares his pleasure , common sense tells us , that the meaning is , that if we do not bear a fitting regard to that his declaration , it must be at our own peril ; and without this i do not apprehend how his authority doth appear to be any greater than that of any other man. again , if the king be to govern the people , religion must then be a very considerable part of his care , as being a thing wherein his government will find it self to be very frequently and very highly concerned ; there being nothing more evident nor experienced than this , that according to the right or wrong measures which may be taken of religion , the people may be wrought upon to do either very much good or very much evil , even as to the affairs of this life : there are not a few doctrines , which this nation is no stranger to , which is a prince hath not power to forbid the spreading of , god shall be extreamly dishonoured , himself be in a fair way to be deposed ▪ and his subjects ruined ; and he shall pl●inly see all this , and upon these me●s terms not in the least be able to help it : and this naturally leads 〈◊〉 to our next consideration , the many great inconveniencies which attend liberty of conscience both in relation to religion and government , the worship of god , and the publick peace . but before i enter upon this part of the argument , i must again return so far back , as to take some notice of that common rumour about the town , of such a project in hand as will ( if the success can be supposed to answer the great hopes which are conceived of it ) make all that labour needles● and that is the fore-mentioned comprehension : in behalf of which the undertakers are said usually and openly to alledge this , that if that be yielded to , there will be then no need at all of toleration ; for , by that means the church will be so strong by the accession of her new friend● , that she may safely contemn , and by their help easily overcome all her other enemies ; and withall they are persons already so very near us ▪ that there are none but inconsiderable matters in debate between us ; for they allow episcopacy , approve the liturgy , abhor sacriledge , believe our articles , and already can and often do communicate in our publick worship . now as plausible and taking soever this plea is , yet methinks that there is no one part of it which doth not carry something of wonder in it . first , it is well known that there was a time when the presbyterians did joyn with , invite , encourage , and protect all other sectaries , that by their assista●ce they might be enabled to ruine the church ; and therefore it ought to be well considered upon , by what means it is brought about , that their minds come now to be so f●r altered as that they will now joyn with the church in the suppression of all the other sects : nay , and very lately the leading persons of that way did joyn interests with the pap●sts , and mutually engage for assistance to p●●liament other in stopping of bills in 〈◊〉 preparing against both of them ▪ in the next place , if the difference between us and them are so inconsiderable , as they pretend , then surely there was no need of the last war upon any religious account . there was no need of that grievous complaint against some of those thing● which a preacher at this day in aldersgate-street made before a mock-parliament , september 24. 1656. praysed be that god who hath delivered 〈◊〉 from the imposition of prelatical i●novations , altar-gen●-flections , and cri●gings with crossings , and all that popists trash and trumpery : and truly ( i speak no more than what i have often thought and said ) the removal of those insupportable burthens counter 〈◊〉 all the blood and treasure shed and spent in these late distractions ( nor did i as yet ever hear of any godly men that desired , were it possible , to purchase their friends or money again at so dear a rate , as with the return of these , as have those 〈◊〉 anti-christian yokes rei●pos●● upon us : and if any such there be i am sure that that desire is no part of their godliness , and i profess my self in that to be none of the number : here we see that mr. ie●kin is very positive and express in the case ; that the differences are so great between us , that all the blood shed , whether in the field or on the scaffold , was all little enough to be shed in order to the removal of so great evils ; and yet there w●● shed in this quarrel the blood of the king , many of the nobles and gentry , & of vast numbers of all other ranks , orders and degrees amongst 〈◊〉 : if the differences between us be so inconsiderable , as it is now said , then methinks there was but little cause for that great zeal of mr. calamy's , which he exprest in guild●hall , october 6. 〈◊〉 in order to the perswading the ci●y unto a liberal contribution toward bringing in the scots , in order to the preservation of the gospel , 〈◊〉 he several times expresseth himself in that speech , as if the diffe●ences were in his esteem , and in the esteem of that grave and reverend assembly of ministers there present with him , so very considerable , that the chief concerns of the gospel did depend upon them ; and accordingly he made use of this pretence as his chief art , whereby to wheedle the city out of their money at that time : let me tell you , if euer ( gentlemen ) you might use this speech , o happy penny , you may use it now , happy money that will purchase my gospel , happy money that will purchase religion , and purchase a reformation to my posterity ; o happy money and blessed be god that i have it to lend : so that it seems these gentlemen have two measures which upon different occasions they do make use of : when they have a mind to collogue with authority , then the differences between them and the regular clergy are mere trifles and very inconsiderable ; but when there is a season offered , wherein it is safe to animate and inflame the people , the● the differences are of that moment , that no treasure , no blood is sufficient to be laid out in a debate of that concernment , or in the words of the forementioned speech ; if i had as many lives as i have hairs on my head , i would be willing to sacrifice all these lives in this cause : lastly , if the differences between us be so very small , sure there can be no great cause for their present obstinate separation . but if these men are really and in good earnest desirous of coming into the church . it is very fit that in order to that they should declare whether they will leave those principles which have hitherto divided them from it , or whether they are resolved to entertain those principles still , or any of them : if they will leave their principles the churches arms are open to receive and to embrace them ; but if they mean ●o retain their principles , or any of them , their room may be more desirable than their company ; for upon those terms the difference is in no likelihood to amount to any more than this , that instead of remaining in a schism from the church , they will thereby be inabled to make a schism within it ; or if they are at length brought to be perswaded to part with any of their principles , will they be so honest as to declare that they have been so far mistaken , and desire their followers to get out of those snares which they in former dayes did lay for them ; and particularly will they renounce the covenant ? it was very good advice which the right reverend father in god the lord bishop of winchester gave his majesty , in his epistle before the coronation sermon , when he reminded him of that wise resolution of his royal grandfather , henry the fourth , that he was ready at any time to make a peace with any of the leaguers ▪ but he would never make any peace with the league . now if they look upon it as any hard measure that they should be called upon to renounce the covenant : let them not at all wonder , if the regular sons of the church have not forgot those rigours with which it was imposed , the many mischiefs which have been wrought , and are something apprehensive of those mischiefs which may at this day be wrought by it ; if so be that the renunciation of it should be laid aside ; which will certainly be interpreted as at least a tacit confession , that that injuction was unreasonable , and such a one as a man of a tender conscience could not submit to ; and that is a fair preparation for the opinion that the covenant is really a thing which doth oblige us . but because that moderation is at this time a word much in fashion ; let us compare the severities used in behalf of the covenant with this which is so much complained of as being against it ▪ it is indeed , by reason of the clamours by themselves raised about its obligation , established by a law , that none shall be admitted to publick trusts in universities , schools , or the church , who will not renounce its obligation ; but the covenanters did not think this a sufficient security in their case ; mr. calamy tells us in his fore-mentioned speech , in the name of himself and the reverend ministers with him , with great joy and triumph ; that there was not one person in the kingdom of scotland who is not a covenanter , and the●e shall not one abide among them who will not take this covenant . now this mr. calamy , from the beginning of the long parliament till the day of his death , was a ringleader of that party of men who do now plead for comprehension , & do earnestly at this time desire that they may be dispensed with , for renouncing the covenant . and if the counsel of these divines had been of as great authority in the army , as it was with the two houses , that which mr. calamy doth magnifie in scotland would have been a pattern for the same course to be taken in england . but seeing that the covenant is more sacred with them than the oaths of alleagiance and supremacy , will they , if they should be thus far condiscended to , be so grateful to his majesty as to declare their opinions against the war raised against his father ? will they in lieu of renouncing the covenant take an oath wherein they will assert , that the war raised by some lords and gentlemen sitting at westminster , under the name of the lords and commons assembled in parliament , by a commission granted to robert earl of essex , was unlawful , as being against the known laws both of god and of the nation ? if they refuse this , seeing that we know that many of these very men for whom comprehension is desired did preach up the war , if they will not declare against it , it is shrewdly to be suspected that their mind is the same as formerly , and the only change which is , is in the posture of affairs . but because it is now said in behalf of these men , that they allow episcopacy , and approve of a liturgy , nay of ours : that we may not be imposed upon by any ambiguous generality of words ; it is but requisite that in this they would declare particularly in what sence it is that they allow and approve both these things ; for if by things past we may guess at things present ; by episcopacy they may mean but presbytery ; by the bishop may be understood a kind of a prolocutor . every assuming presbyter may at any time say as one of them lately did , that he is as good a scripture bishop , as he w●o sate upon the bench ; or perhaps look upon a bishop only as a civil officer in order to some legal purposes : and by a liturgy they may mean only such a ●orm of prayers which may be either used or le● alone , or rather a thing which is ( if ever to be ) permitted only to those who are persons of such small sufficiency as not to be able to pray without it , and so instead of being a duty is intended meerly as a disparagement : or it may be the common prayer may be allowed as a way of spending the time till the company is got together , and then comes the prayer which the spirit is the immediate author of , and which alone hath the promise of any blessing made 〈◊〉 it . unless , i say , that these persons be required to express their minds very particularly in these and all other matters of debate between us , we shall be alway● a● a loss , how much of the good old cause they resolve to stick to ; and without some satisfaction in these things we have reason to be jealous , that they have , after so many other disappointments , pitched upon this contrivance , as a very likely one , whereby the church may , by their admission , become divided against it self : the pulpits may quickly be brought to speak in very different languages , and the hearers strangely distracted between the several abettors of the very distant measures of the old and new conformity . they who have kept out of the church thus long , rather than they would not have their wills in such and such matters in debate between us ; it is scarce to be hoped , that when they are brought into the church , by being yielded to in them , that they will not with the same art and industry keep up in the minds of men a good opinion of that cause which they have so long contended for : at the least they will take what care they can , that those of their former hearers whom they shall be able to bring along with them , ( if they shall be able to bring any store of their hearers along with them , which is no small question ) shall for ever be kept under bondage to every one of all those scruples , by which they have been able to retain dominion over them : and they who have all along been , observably upon all occasions , admirably expert at interpreting all things to the utmost possibilities of all advantage , as to themselves and their cause , it is not to be expected from them , that they will not interpret this condescention as a complete justification . and unless the modesty and gratitude of these men be strangely increased of late , beyond what it hath used to be , our governours are not like to receive any other return than this ; that god hath at length begun to return again , and in some sort to own his people and his cause : he hath now opened the eyes of the parliament , and let them see their error in imposing the renouncing the covenant ; and who knows what more a gracious god may do for so gracious a people ? and that reputation which hath thus long engaged them to pretend their cause of separation to be just , can do no less than continue to engage them to avow its having been necessary . so that the church will by this means be weakned by having one great security taken from her ; those men will be admitted into her , of whose affections and designs she hath abundant cause to be highly jealous ; and who , by obtaining their present demands , will , according to their old customs , be thereby emboldned with the like restless importunity to make more demands , and perhaps in a little time be inabled to take what farther they please , without so much as asking it : and by this means the people will become extremely divided , both amongst themselves and from the government . and when that is done , there will be so many left out of this comprehension , that the noise will not be much less than it is already : and whatever accession can be supposed to be made to the church by the coming in of her new friends , will be more than over-ballanced by the loss she will receive in the stability of her principles and the unity of her children : she will be the less able to defend her self against the exceptions of the romanists , and be at no small loss for an answer to the clamours of other sectaries , who can pretend as great grievances , and alledge as plausible reasons why they should be gratified ; so that the work of coalition ( as it is called in the newest word ) as often soever as it is done , will be just as often to begin again . as to any other particulars of that comprehension which is now so much endeavoured , seeing they have not thought fit to let us know them , i shall not venture to make a guess at them , but shall go on to another contrivance , and in the opinion of many a more promising one , and that is , toleration , which is frequently said to be an expedient which will gratifie many more , and more considerable persons than can be hoped to be brought within the compass of any one comprehension . now it is by no means a thing to be wondred at , if so be that the proposal of toleration be in it self at the first view very plausible , and in the eyes of very many persons exceeding acceptable : it looks like a privilege which every man hath an interest in , which , seing it is enjoyed by all alike , no man should take himself to have any cause to envy it to any other . now this liberty of conscience , however it hath obtained to be the general darling , yet , methinks , in the very name there is something which offers it self to our consideration , which is at least worth our enquiry ; whether the very demand doth not carry in it an exception against it self ? how doth it appear that conscience hath any such absolute right to liberty ? hath it no rule which it ought to walk by ? hath it no obligation to follow any besides its own light ? if this be not the case , then liberty and conscience are two words , which are very unfit in great variety of cases to be joyned together . i shall readily grant , that to act against our conscience is always a sin ; but then i shall add this further , that it is very frequently a grievous sin to act according to it : conscience may in some cases condemn , but there are very many cases wherein it cannot justifie . i know nothing by my self ( saith st. paul ) yet am i not hereby justified ; and farther , i may self thought verily that i ought to do many things contrary to the name of iesus , &c. the scripture tells us of seared consciences , reprobate minds , men whose minds and consciences are defiled . from all which expressions , it is very clear , that conscience is not a safe rule for any man to act by in his private capacity . and in the next place , as conscience is very far from being a safe rule for any man to act by in his private capacity ; so it is by no means advisable , that men should be so far trusted , as to teach according to it in any publick places : st. paul assures us , that by this permission dangerous contentions shall arise , by reason of the perverseness of men , when in the nature of the things there was no real cause for them , ● tim. 2. 14. they will strive about words to no purpose , to the subversion of the ●earers . and , ● tim. 4. 1. he tells us of seducing spirits , who teach the doctrine of devils : tim. 3. for many verses together , he describes a sort of very wicked men , of whom in the close he gives this character , that they have a form of godliness , but deny the power thereof ; that they creep into houses and l●ad captive silly women laden with divers lusts : and again we read of those who bring in damnable her●sies ; and again , which directly cometh up to the point in hand about toleration , whose mouths must be stopped . thus far therefore our way is clear ; 1. that according to the doctrine of the new testament , conscience is not its own rule , is not entirely left to it self in its own way of acting : 2. that those who are allowed to be publick preachers are not to be intrusted with an absolute liberty of propagating whatever opinions themselves either really are or shall pretend to be of ; of which i have already spoke , and therefore shall add no more upon that point besides the laying down some of the many inconveniencies which will unavoidably arise upon the granting of any such liberty in these two respects , 1. of religion , 2. of government . first , as to religion ; and here the case is very clear , that such a liberty is the most ready way in the world to make religion weak and despicable , by being crumbled into an unaccountable and every day encreasing variety of sects and schisms : what one other contrivance can possibly be thought upon , whereby to expose religion to the frequent and seemingly just scorn of unbelievers than this ? that it should by publick authority be openly exposed to all manner of ridiculous and incongruous pretences unto it , to all kinds of dotage and imposture , to all the folly and all the falseness which is to be met with among the sons of men : that every one who hath but a freak in his brain shall have free liberty , if he pleaseth , to christen it a motion of the spirit , and every humour though never so unheard of and extravagant , shall have by law a priviledge ( if it will but claim it ) to recommend its self as a degree of further light : here we shall see men shaking all day , as if the spirit came to them in convulsions , and as the humour increaseth we shall see them run naked about the streets , as if with the old man , they had put off all degrees of modesty : the scripture shall be frequently so interpreted , as that no man in his wits can possibly understand it , it both hath and may be allegorized so far as to leave no manner of sence or truth in any one word of all the history of it ; its laws may be so commented upon , as to carry in them no manner of obligation : among our selves the family of love had gotten a fancy that christ was not any one person , but a quality whereof many are partakers , that to be raised is nothing else , but to be regenerated or endued with the said quality , and the separation from them which have it , and them which have it not , is judgment● now where ever this liberty is indulged , the grand and concerning articles of our faith , our saviours taking humane nature upon him , the resurrection from the dead , and the last judgment , are all given away in exchange for two or three fanciful expressions . the history of the creation hath of old been made but an allegory ; the garden of eden a 〈◊〉 trope ; it is to little purpose to alledge that with equal reason it might be said , that by the whole race of mankind was not to be understood any real beings , but only so ●any handsome figures , and by the universe is not to be understood a creation , but a strain of wit , for reason in such like cases will be no more harkned to , than scripture : so likewise it 〈◊〉 been taught , that christ shall descend from heaven in a metaphor , and we be catched up into the air in a moral way ; the new heavens and the new earth are nothing else but the world changed by their example into their opinions : and if this liberty be allowed , all miracles and all mysteries will be quickly changed into so many whimsies ; for what is it which self-conceit cannot inspire , or madness prove , or that man admit , who cares not to know what himself means ; or whether he doth or not , if he be once got under the plausible shelter of liberty of conscience himself , what is it that he may not impose upon vast multitudes , who though never so well meaning in themselves , are yet liable to be overreached by the arts of other men : the dangers of this kind are not possible to be reckoned , because they encrease and vary at their own pleasure ; neither is there any man living , who can possibly tell us how many and how gross absurdities such a liberty as this may bring into the nation in the very next moment . this very devise of liberty of conscience , which many , who look upon themselves as wise men and no ill christians , are fond of , is the very same , by which one of its shrewdest adversaries did hope to drive christianity out of the world , and that too by its own assistance ; and to that end he granted a promiscuous liberty for all dissenting christians to enjoy the publick exercise of their several ways , in hopes thereby to engage one of them against another , and by that means to make his advantage upon all of them : for so we read of iulian , that when his long contrived project of restoring heathenism began to be put in effectual execution , that this was the course which he pitched upon , as that which was most likely to bring his design about , to grant liberty of conscience to all dissenting christians , as ammianus marcellinu● hath it lib. 22. vtque dispositorum roboraret effectum , dissidentes christianorum antistites cum plebe discissâ in palatium intromissos monebat , ut civilibus discordiis consopitis quisque nullo vetante religionisuae serviret intrepibus ▪ here was a man very tender of consciences , but what think we was his reason for all this indulgence and moderation , we may read it in the next words , quod agebat ideo obstinate , ut dissentiones augente licentiâ non timeret , unanimantem postea plebe●● nullas infestas hominibus bestias ut sunt sibi ferales plerique christianorum expertus . this wise and subtle adversary knew very well that this was a ready way to destroy christianity , to give a free liberty and a full opportunity for every one who pleased to divide it : so that this sage contrivance of ours is but the christianity of an heathen , the taking up the moderate counsels of a profest apostate ; and our wisdom in preserving religion doth express it self in those very ways , by which as wise men as our selves have thought the ready way to overthrow it . indeed it is hardly credible , that any person who understands humane●nature , who considers how many are its weaknesses , and how violent its passions , who is a judge of consequences , or hath at all observed the course of affairs , can in the least be fond of any such device as this kind of liberty , who hath not within himself a very great design against the present religion of that kingdom where he doth propose it . but , alas ! that is but a small part of this evil , even our common christianity will be hard put to it , if it must wrestle with all the difficulties which toleration will immediately bring upon it : that faith is in no great likelihood of remaining long pure and sound , which is exposed to whosoever pleaseth to corrupt and to defile it there is one principle well known amongst us , which where-ever it is admitted , there is no doctrine of faith whatever , nor rule of good life which can be able to stand before it , and that is the doctrine of new light , or private illumination : this is an evil which cannot be watched with too much care , because it always hath it in its own power to occasion how many and what kinds of mischief soever it self pleaseth ; and withall it is with great ease pretended to by every one who will ; and there are every day to be met with too many persons too readily disposed to be imposed upon by such pretences . some romanists have with great scorn insulted over the reformation , upon the account that this evil hath made a shift to creep into it ; whereas this is a difficulty which all religions are liable to be abused by ; a folly with which the church of rome doth exceedingly abound , and to which she is indebted for some of her chief orders , as being plainly founded in it . the quakers in england are neither more ridiculous , nor as yet so impious as the al●●brados were in spain , nor do the blasphemous phrenzies of david george exceed those of evangelium aeternum . this is an ill weed which will grow in all soils , and spread exceedingly ; and infallibility it self is but an equal plea , and therefore is , upon such occasions , glad to call in to its assistance its temporal advantages . this very pretence doth scarce leave a man within the possibility of being confuted ; what authority is ●here to be produced which is fit to come in competition with this perswasion , that i have an immediate suggestion from the holy ghost : the scripture it self hath but one and the same original , and is of an elder date , and , if i please , is as imperfect in respect of my revelation , as that of moses was in respect of that of christ. this evil is liable to to be as endless as thought or art can make it , as boundless as imagination , and hath as great variety of shapes to appear in , as there are possibilities in the world for any man to be either willing to deceive or liable to be deceived . what a fatal influence the now contended for liberty of conscience had upon the most considerable articles of religion , within a small compass of time , we may learn from the forementioned testimony of the london , and the attestation of the cheshire-ministers . i shall set down some of the articles against which those errors were , but will not defile my paper with the errours themselves . against the divine authority of holy scriptures ; against the nature and essence ; against the being of any god ; against christ as mediator ; against the obligation of the moral law ; against ordinances ; against lawful oaths , against the future state of mens souls after this life , denying the immortality of them . but besides religion , such a liberty will be quickly found to have a sad influence upon government and the publick peace . and as this sort of liberty will expose truth to perpetual and unavoidable dangers , and withal hath left it no possibility of a sufficient defence against them ; so it hath a natural tendency towards destroying the publick peace : and not only so , but to the disturbance of all societies , and even of every private family . opinions have a great influence upon actions , and engage men not only upon good , but upon very bad practices . he who is allowed to raise a sect , hath a very fair opportunity put into his hands of making himself the head of it , as being such a party ; and by being permitted to have their consciences , will have but too many opportunities of having their persons and purses at his disposal likewise . hence it is , that though some princes have been sometimes forced to suffer dissenters from the established profession ( by reason that they were so numerous , or so subtil , that they could not go about to suppress them without discovering how unable they were to do so ; ) yet they always looked upon such dissenters as the next door to enemies ; and accordingly had a perpetual eye and guard upon them , as those who of all other were the most likely to be the authors or occasion of the next disturbance . it is a great mistake , though it be often found amongst the greatest persons , that sects are things fit only to be despised , because that men of parts and fortune are neither easily nor usually seduced by them : but it ought likewise to be considered , that ambition , revenge , covetousness , humour and discontent may engage those who are not in earnest themselves seduced , to appear in all seeming earnest to seduce others . i shall readily grant , that both the beginning and the greatest growth of sects are amongst the meanest people , those whose fortunes are as low as their understandings ; but then they do not stay altogether among them , but spread farther ; like a pestilence , which may begin in an obscure alley , but in a little time no part of the city or kingdom may be free from it . besides , are not the vulgar people the hands , the tools , the instruments which the greatest must always make use of ? and is it not known by frequent experience , that a deception once got among them , may by a little connivence thrive so far , as to be able to dispute for superiority , and instead of demanding an indulgence , refuse to give one ? and , by how much the ordinary sorts of people are less masters of reason than others , with so much the greater ease they may be wrought upon to engage in those courses ; which by men who understood better , would be looked upon as evidently unreasonable . now this is an error which hath been frequently committed by wise men in great places : they look upon the errors and follies which the common people are drawn into , as things very fit to be indulged , as being only so many occasions for themselves to droll upon ; but by their so doing they have often found the return , which abner did of sporting himself with lives , as these mighty sages do with lives and souls , 2 sam. 2. 14. let the young men arise and play before us ; but with him they are at last convinced , that , ver. 26. it is bitterness in the latter end . the safety of all government doth depend upon this , that it is certainly stronger than each single person , and in taking care of this , that as to any kinds of union or joyning forces together , that there may be no such things but under the guidance of the magistrate , and by his appointment ; & so long as this is taken effectual care of , though the discontented persons be never so many , yet because they have no way of uniting ; they are but so many single persons , scattered , weak and insignificant , having no opportunities of any common council , they can never joyn in any common design . but let them once have but so much as any one phrase to know one another by , any setled place for their constant meetings , and a set and known company for them to meet with , and any bond whatever which doth unite them , and they presently become a distinct people , and begin to be dangerous , as having an interest , counsels and body of their own , which the government is not manager of , nor privy to , but shall quickly find it self highly concerned by all means to provide against . let it once be permitted to crafty , active , talking , lying and designing men , to instil into the minds of all sorts of people , the necessity , usefulness , piety , or rare excellency of any one thing or contrivance whatever , beyond that which the present laws and establishment doth provide for ; and is not here a most readily prepared matter for any bold boutefeu to work upon , who will take upon him to help the nation immediately to so fine a thing ? hath not any such undertaker a vast and already formed party in all parts of the kingdom ? let him but represent to them , that the present government is the only rub in their way , between them and their so fancied happiness ; and is it not very likely that this will be the very next consequent resolution ; let us remove that obstacle , so publick a good is much to be preferred before any particular form or family ; the welfare of the nation is the great end , and governours themselves were created but in order to that , and consequently are to cease as often as that end can be better attained without them . though the pretence be nothing but conscience , yet every discontent will joyn to make the cry both loud and general . schisms do of themselves naturally grow into parties , and , besides , are most plausible occasions for any else to joyn unto them ; the gathered churches are most excellent materials to raise new troops out of , and when they are thus fa● prepared , they are easily perswaded to be at the service of any one who will attempt to lead them on . if all men were wise and honest , if every one understood well , and would act accordingly ; upon that supposition conscience might have a much greater trust reposed in it than can be now adviseable : and if we could flatter our selves so far as to take that to be the case , this would no more supersede the necessity of the coercive power of laws in religious matters , than it would upon the same grounds supersede it in civil ones . for no laws which ever were or can be in the world can possibly provide in any degree for those large measures of justice , equity , mercy , and all kinds of fair dealing , which would infallibly every where be met with , if all men did take care to keep a good conscience ; truth , justice , temperance , &c. are things which every man's conscience doth and must needs tell him that he is obliged to , yet were it not for fear of the law , we should find that conscience is not alone to be trusted in these which are her natural and familiar ojects : and this is a thing so known and granted on all hands , that it is not usual with men in their dealings among one another to trust purely , in matters of any moment , to one anothers conscience . and seeing we acknowledge that conscience may so often prevaricate in these plain and obvious things , where she is so easily found out ; we have no great cause to trust to her fidelity , that she will not also dissemble in those things which are more remote and obscure , and hidden from the very best of our discovery . let those therefore , who plead for liberty of conscience , consider ; that there are two sorts of men , which ought to be provided against , to keep this contrivance of theirs from being absolutely the most senceless and dangerous in the whole world ; and upon their grounds it doth not appear to be so much as possible to provide against them : first , those who are not honest , and these may pretend conscience if they will , and in that case religion and government ▪ truth and peace are like to be most admirably secured , when they are authoritatively permitted to the arbitrary management of every designing atheist , who will but take upon him to be an enthusiast : and in the second place , as all men are not honest , so all men are not wise , and as the former sort may pretend conscience , so the latter are perpetually liable to be imposed upon by the innumerable , however absurd pretences unto it : those laws are not fitted for the temper of this world , which are made upon this supposition , that every one who looks demurely is presently in good earnest , that men say nothing but what they think ; let us but consider that it is very possible for men to personate , and then we shall not be very eager to desire a general license for every one who hath a mind to become a publick cheat. and then from these diversities of judgments , and many times when they are only different forms of speaking , there will immediately arise great distances of affection : for these divisions , of reuben there will be great thoughts of heart , sur●●zings , censures , jealousies , raylings , evil speaking , animosities , peevishness , malice , perverse disputings , & every evil way : each congregation will have at least some one little proposition peculiar to its self , which all its proselytes must be known by , which all their thoughts must be perpetually running upon , & every one else must be called upon to come up to : the smallest gathered church cannot hold its members together , unless it hath some particular thing to engage them upon , & to have them known by , for they cannot with any face separate from all mankind , but they must have something to say for it , this contrivance however it be absurd and dangerous will notwithstanding that , have alwayes many who will be very fond of it ; for it is a most ready way for every forward fellow to think himself some body , because he hath adopted himself into such a sect ; and then the next thing which he is to think upon is to try if he can improve the notion a little farther ; for if so , he shall be the more taken notice of : and if he finds that his addition is but a little taking , he will then forsake his masters , to set up for himself , divide from that church of which he hath been long a precious member to gather a purer of his own . and so his new light will serve most bravely for himself to shine in . but if this had been a new and unheard of invention , the contrivers might then have been allowed to entertain vast hopes of it ; but alas , it hath been often tryed , and hath alwayes brought confusion along with it : and is it to be wondred at , that in variety of worships the one doth look upon the other as erroneous , and perhaps impious ? and then how lamentably must that city be divided whose inhabitants think themselves bound , as they love god to hate one another ; and it hath been often seen , that a common enemy hath crept in at these intestine divisions , and destroyed both , while the one , by reason of different communions , did not enough care to help the other . be our apprehensions about divine matters never so different , i grant that we ought not for the sake of them to be wanting in the common duties of humanity to one another , or in our mutual endeavours after the publick good. i readily grant , that to be wanting in our assistance in either of these cases , is a great error ; but alas ! it is too general an one , and law-makers are to consider not only what men ought , but what they use to do . why shall i fight ( saith one ) for a prince who is an idolater ? and why should i ( saith another ) take any care to relieve that city which is only a bundle of schismaticks , the greatest part whereof are in my esteem blasphemers likewise ? ieroboam understood this very well , he did not cast off the true god , but only set up another way of worship , as easily concluding that by perswading them to be of another religion , he should easily keep them to be another kingdom ; when their faiths were once divided , the nations would never care to unite again . and pray , tell me , what shall a prince do in that case , where are diverse ways of worship allowed and frequented in the same nation ? shall he discountenance the professors of any one , by keeping them out of all office and employment ? if so , he disobligeth that whole profession , loseth so many hearts ; who sure will think themselves to be very hardly dealt with , in that they are disrespected only out of their zeal for god , and because they follow the best of their light. and what are they like to think of such a state , which doth refuse to employ them meerly upon this account , because they have tender consciences , and dare not be present where the gospel is de●iled by a profane mixture of humane inventions ? or , secondly , shall the prince carry himself equally and indifferently towards all perswasions , countenance and prefer them all alike ? this can hardly be , because that he himself must be of some one , and that will think it self not fairly dealt with , if it have not some preeminence : and when he endeavours to shew himself indifferent to all perswasions , there will enough be immediatly ready to give it out , that he makes use of all religions for his own ends , but himself is really of none ; and so perpaps none of them will be really for him : and thus by endeavouring to displease neither party , he shall certainly displease them both , at least the zealots of all sides will represent him at the best as one lukewarm , and as such , only fit to be spit out of all their mouths . men may talk of their fine projects as long as they please ; but surely where the church is already so settled , as that it hath a great dependance upon the government , and the government hath a standing influence upon that , those politicks must needs be very strange , which go about to alter or unsettle or put any check upon such a constitution : and in opposition to a clergy thus regulated , it is no kindness sure to the monarchy , to to go about to set up such a ministry 〈◊〉 depends purely upon the people : and when the whole method of the preachers maintenance and reputation must consist in the various arts by which he can either guide or follow the several humours of each of his congregation ; no man can tell what it is possible for a good crafts-master to perswade the multitude unto . but this danger , how great and plain soever it be , yet in the opinion of the great promoters of the desired ecclesiastical confusion , is so far from being looked upon as any inconvenience , that it is in all likelihood the true and real and only reason which makes them to be so very fond of it , to desire it with so great earnestness , and never to be put off by never so many denials and disappointments . the church is one great rub in their way between them and the crown ; and therefore because they find that they cannot directly demand the present removal of it , they have bethought themselves of two plausible methods whereby to prepare the way for doing it another time : first , to open the door to let the churches old enemies in upon her , and for all the care which shall be taken to give them liberty , to bring their old enmities along with them ; and by that means the church will be not only weakned , by being divided within her self , but besides there will be a part of her self always ready to betray her , and give her up . one sort of the projectors desire only thus much , and that will satisfie them : another sort there are , who think it not sufficient that the church be only weakned within , unless there be a free liberty for whosoever pleaseth to train up as many as he can prevail with to come and learn of them the several ways by which the church , when occasion offers it self , may be set upon from without : and it is well known , that these gentlemen are not unacquainted with new models of civil as well as ecclesiastical administration . and having thus pointed at some few of the innumerable inconveniences of toleration , i shall add once more , that some care ought to be taken of the present device of comprehension ; that if it be thought fit to be granted , it may be upon this condition , that all who receive benefit by it , should be obliged publickly before their congregations to declare their approbation of the liturgy , in a form to be appointed by authority for that purpose , and to renew that declaration on certain days to be likewise appointed , and to read the common prayer themselves , and not to leave it always to mean persons , who shall only be appointed to slubber it over , to spend the time till the company is got together ; and then one of the precious men shall come and put himself in all the most solemn postures imaginable , and in fact say to the people ( as dr. heylin's chamber-fellow was served after a short grace ) dearly beloved , let us praise god better : and withal , that security should be taken , that this conformity of theirs be not used merely as an expedient to keep them in publick employment ; that so they may be the more ready , when opportunity offers it self , to assist providence in carrying on the great work of a thorough reformation . and this advice is by no means to be despised , as a thing perfectly needless , because that as great a conformity as for ought appears is now intended , hath been formerly advised and submitted to upon this very account , to prepare matters the better for an intended change. this mr. calamy ( in his apology against mr. burton , 1646 quoted in the collection called evangelinur armatum , p. 47. ) alledgeth for himself to have been one of his own old arts : as for the service-book , let mr , burton know , that at a meeting at my house , it was resolved by above a hundred ministers , after a long debate , upon divers weighty considerations , that all that could in their iudgments submit to the reading of some part of it , should be entreated for a while to continue so to do . to this our dissenting brethren then present did agree , and one of them made a speech to manifest his concordance . this is enough to give any man satisfaction for the late laying it down . and proportionably to this , it is a thing well known , that some very well affected to the good old cause , do for all that conform to the use of the ceremonies of the church , under the sanctified excuse of submitting to them as burthens . now these , i think , are competent fore-warnings to authority to take care to secure it self against any ill use which is possible to be made of any abatements towards that sort of people , who in this very case do profess themselves to act without sincerity , and to make use of all the arts which they can think of . and in the next place their great earnestness in desiring to be dispensed with for renouncing the covenant , doth in them plainly shew a very great fondness remaining toward it , and if yielded to , would in authority appear more than a tacit confession , that it had hitherto been to blame in its zeal against it . their restleness in this is not to be wondred at , because they are sworn never to be wrought over to an indifferency or detestable neutrality : but that authority should be wrought over to shew kindness to such a combination against it self , or that any should propose it to the old cavaliers to give leave to their old persecutors to believe themselves under the oath of god , to bring every one of them to condign punishment , is a thing which may justly raise all mens wonder . i confess indeed , that by the last bill of comprehension it was provided ( and so perhaps it may in this ) that no man should dare to say , that the covenant doth oblige under such a penalty , &c. but it is much to be doubted that such a provision may not be sufficient ; for let us consider this one thing : those persons , concerning whom our present debate is , are such as are to be entrusted to be guides of consciences , and if this renunciation be once taken off , then they have liberty enough to insist upon the obligation of the covenant amongst their confidents , without coming within the danger of the law. let us remember that the holy league in france was taken by above half the kingdom , before the king did ever so much as hear of it . but , to make this matter plain , i shall propose a case very like it in our own kingdom . suppose that any man out of the great tenderness which he pretends to have for the consciences of men , should propose that the oaths of allegiance and supremacy should be by act of parliament taken away , upon this very pretence , that oaths are not to be multiplied but upon great necessity ; that the consciences of men are nice and tender things , and ought not to be disquieted by being pried into ; and disputable points of government are not fit matters to be put into an oath : ought not such a person to be looked upon with a very jealous eye , as being ill affected to his majesties person , his crown and dignity ? he himself and all his favourers will , no doubt , reply , no ; because he doth at the same time offer a security in it self as good and more fit to be taken , and that is this , that it shall be very punishable for any man to say , that our soveraign lord king charles is not lawful and rightful king of these realms , &c. and that the pope hath any power or authority to depose the king , &c. he , i say , who should propose this alteration , ought in all reason to be looked upon as a better subject to the pope than to the king. and so likewise , and for the same reason , those , who with so great eagerness and importunity have so often endeavoured the taking away the renunciation of the covenant , ought to be very much suspected , lest they have in their eye something which is of much higher consideration with them , than either the settlement of the church or the safety of his majesty . it now remains that i consider the great objections which are urged against all which is already said , which are these , that comprehension , say some , others toleration , others both , are fit to be granted ; 1. by reason of the great numbers who do desire it : secondly , in respect of their great merit , they being persons in whom doth consist a great part of the sobriety , industry , frugality and wisdom of the nation , and particularly the presbyterians have deserved well of his majesty . thirdly , it is very adviseable to grant a liberty at this time to these persons by reason of the great assistance which they are able to afford us against popery ; and fourthly , that if a liberty be not given , it will be a very great inconvenience to trade . fifthly , toleration of several forms of religion , is a thing which we may see a good effect of among our neighbours in france and holland : lastly , civil penalties are of no use in religion , but only to make hypocrites . to all which pretences i return this . first , that the numbers of these men are not in any degree so great as they do pretend ; it is indeed one of their great and old arts to make all the shew they can possibly , and to boast of those numbers which they cannot shew ; one who is as well acquainted with the muster rolls of these parties as any man , doth plead for an indulgence by this very argument , that they are not so considerable as that any danger needed to be feared from them . peace-offering , p. 8. what are we that publick disturbance should be feared from us , nec pondera rerum nec momenta sumus ; by what way or means , were we never so desirous , could we contribute any thing thereunto ? what designs are we capable of ? &c. so that it seems this is an argument which they can either use or lay aside , as occasion offers it self : they can either wheedle authority into pity and forbearance upon the account that they are so inconsiderable , as that no danger can possibly be feared from them ; or otherwise they can hectour authority , as being so considerable , as that there is no danger so great , but if they are disobliged , it may reasonably be feared from them . in the second place , is it any wonder that these men do appear in some numbers , considering how easily many honest well-meaning persons may be seduced by the zeal and vehemence of some who are seduced themselves , and the various arts of others whose great design is to seduce as many as they can possibly : and again , are there not some remainders of the old army yet alive , committee-men , sequestrators , purchasers of crown and church lands , and otherwise interested in the late rebellion ? besides vast multitudes of the common people depending on them , who must needs be glad of so many solemn occasions of meeting one another , by which they keep up their acquaintance and correspondence , and put a very serious face upon their goad old cause , and find many opportunities to he mutually serviceable to one another in their private affairs , and of joyning counsels against the publick . and do they not breed up their children and relations in the very same principles with themselves ? now the greater numbers there are of such people so much the greater care there ought to be taken that they be not permitted to meet together . the meeting-place is very well fitted for a religious rendevouz , and the spiritual master of the camp may not only deliver out his orders at the same time with , but may stamp upon them the authority of the oracles of god. but in the next place , if the government would please but to own it self , the numbers of these men would presently appear to be very inconsiderable ; and this hath no oftner been tryed than it hath been found to have been accompanied with good effect . in queen elizabeths dayes , these mens predecessours were very troublesome , made grat noise with their great numbers , and the great dangers which would arise by disobliging them ; and they had some great favourers in court upon some accounts , which were not very religious ; but when by reason of their insolent provocation in the year 1588. when the queen was in all her fears from the spanish armado , and in a condition , as they thought to deny them nothing ; they so far provoked her , as to alienate her mind for ever from them : their boasted of numbers did immediately abate , and the laws were immediately submitted to , as soon as ever they did perceive that it was but in vain to think of longer triffling with them : so likewise it hapned in king iames his dayes , their loud clamours were presently silenced , as soon as ever the king declared himself resolute at the conference at hampton-court : nor would the act of uniformity have had any less effect , if it had not been accompanied with a general discourse at the same time of a toleration to follow immediately upon it . and i appeal to the consciences of several of the preachers in the separated congregations , whether they did not leave their livings upon this very hope , which without it they would have never done ? besides , the numbers of the dissenters ought by no means to be looked upon , as an argument for toleration by any , because , it is not looked upon as such by themselves : this very point being a thing about which themselves are highly divided , and would by no means if they could help it grant to one another . but besides their numbers , they are now to be considered in point of merit ; but this is a part of the argument in which i do delight so very little , as that i must gratifie my own temper so far , as to say very little in it . the faults of other men are things which i by no means delight to dwell upon , even when it is necessary , i take it to be very irksome : as they are particular persons , i have nothing to say to any one of them , and whatever degrees any of them have attained to in piety and virtue , in any kind of intellectual , moral , and religious accomplishments , i pray god that they may every day increase more and more in them , and that both here and hereafter they may receive the comfort and reward of whatever is truly good in them . but as they are a party , i take it to be very clear , that their merit hath not been very great , either to the crown or nation , and in this it were easie to be very large , for one who delights in that which to me is a very ungrateful employment . in the histories of queen elizabeth , king iames , king charles the first ; there is too much to be found on this argument , and his majesty which now is , when he was in the hands of these men , what usage he did receive from them , though his royal clemency hath been graciously pleased to pardon , yet his loyal subjects have not quite forgot it . as to the next pretence , that it is adviseable to grant these men an indulgence at this time , by reason of the great assistance which they are able to afford us against popery : this is such an objection which the regular sons of the church will scarce be able to refrain themselves from looking upon without some indignation : the writings of the bishops and episcopal divines have hitherto been had in great esteem over all the reformation ; no men thought to have had a better cause to defend ; no men looked upon as better able to defend it : not to mention the many worthies in queen elizabeth , and king iames his dayes , whose names are , both at home and abroad , had in great and deserved honour : i shall only mention some few who since the beginning of the present controversie have wrote against the puritans as well as papists , and accordingly have fell under the indignation of both parties , viz. arch-bishop laud , arch-bishop bramhal , bishop taylor , doctor hammond , and mr. chillingworth . how many ages will the nonconformists take to breed up a man equal to any one of these ? bishop sanderson , a person of known learning and judgment , in a preface to a body of sermons , printed some years before his majesties return , takes occasion to declare his opinion concerning the controversie between the church of england , and church of rome , as it useth to be handled by the non-conformists ; his words are these : that they preach against popery , i not at all mislike , only i could wish that these two cautions were better observed served than ( as far as i can conjecture of the rest by the proportion of what hath come to my knowledge ) i fear they usually are by the more zealous of that party : first , that they do not through ignorance , prejudice , or precipitancy , call that popery which is not , and then under that name and notion preach against it ; and then secondly , that they would do it with less noyse and more weight ▪ &c. now it is well known , that bishop sanderson was a person of great learning and judgment , and withall a person of very great humility and modesty , and who did very little delight in undervaluing the meanest person living ; and yet he expresseth his thoughts concerning the writings of the non-conformists against the church of rome , to be liable to these two not inconsiderable defects : first , that they did not understand the question ; secondly , that they did not know how to pitch upon such arguments as were fit to be made use of . and withall some pages afterwards he adds this , that even in these times of great distraction , and consequently thereunto of so great advantage for the factors for rome , none have stept into the gap more readily , nor appeared in the face of the enemy more openly , nor maintained the fight with more stoutness and gallantry than the episcopal divines have done , as their late learned writings testifie : yea and some of them such ( as beside their other sufferings ) have layen as deep under the suspicion of being popishly affected a● any other of their brethren whatsoever : that by the endeavours of these episcopal divines some that were bred papists have been gained to our church , others that began to waver , confirmed and settled in their old religion , and some that were fallen from us recovered and reduced , notwithstanding all the disadvantages of these confused times ; and of each of these i am able to produce some instances . but i profess sincerely , as in the presence of god , and before the world , that i have not known ( at least i cannot call to remembrance ) so much as one single example of any of this done by any of our anti-geremonian brethren , whether presbyterian or independent . now whether our separating brethren have been improved in their abilities , or have been more fortunate in their successes in their disputings with the romanists since that time , it lies upon them to make out ; i am sure that the writings of the most eminent persons now among them were then extant : since which time there hath indeed appeared a body of sermons , being the united labours of sundry of them , but of any miracles which either have or are likely to be wrought by them , the world both is , and it is to be feared will be for ever silent . if therefore we take these men into the church , our church will be so much the less defensible , as having admitted into it persons whose principles are no way justifiable ; and withal with express leave not to renounce the most unjustifiable of all their principles . and for their assistance against the romanists , it doth not as yet appear , that it will be so valuable as to countervail the advantage we shall give the church of rome by taking these into our church . if we suffer them to remain in bodies distinct from the church , then the romanists have an advantage , if they please to use it , to take up what disguise themselves shall suppose to be fittest for them . how easie a thing is it for a priest to set up for a gifted brother ! and what one opinion is there imaginable , which may not be brought in under the pretence of a farther degree of new light ? whether all the stories be true of friars who have preached in meeting-houses , i have not had an opportunity of being so well informed , as to venture to say any thing ; but i am sure , if they will , they have there fair opportunities offered : and if it be not as yet seasonable to set up directly for their own church , they may however prepare the way by pulling down of ou●s . and notwithstanding all the zeal which the non-conformists do declare against popery , it is well known that they know very well how to joyn both counsels and arms together : the leading men of both parties in ireland were wonderfully great together , all the while that the design was managing against my lord of strafford ; and here in england , in the declaration which the king set forth concerning the success of the battel at edge-hill on october 23. 1643. he hath left this memorial to all posterity ; all men know the great numbers of papists which serve in their armies , commanders and others ; the great industry they have used to corrupt the loyalty and affection of all our loving subjects of that religion ; the private promises and vndertakings that they have made to them , that if they would assist them against vs , all the laws made in their preivdice shovld be repealed , &c. as to the next objection , that the suppressing of conventicles will be a great hindrance to trade : i must needs confess that this is a thing which would have great weight , if it had any truth in it . that trade is a thing of great and general concern , is so plain and confessed a thing , as that there is no need of spending many words whereby to prove it : our wisest kings have always thought themselves concerned to make laws and all manner of provisions whereby to promote and encourage it ; and there is scarce any man so mean , but that he doth in one degree or other receive some benefit by our commerce with other nations . not to enter into particulars , i shall only name one , which is indeed the measure of all the rest , and that is money ; which is not a thing of our own growth , but it is a thing without which those things which are of our own growth , cannot without great difficulty pass from one hand to another . our ships are our bulwarks , nay , they are more than so ; for they not only keep other nations from coming to us , but they carry us to them : they make the sea to be our earth , the whole world to be as it were our native soil , by bringing home to our doors whatsoever groweth in any corner of the universe . it was trade which brought tyre to be called the city of ioy , the crowning city , whose merchants were princes , and whose traffickers the honourable of the earth , esay 22. 7 , 8. it was by the benefit of trade that this city is again said to have heaped up silver as dust , and fine gold as mire in the streets , zech. 9. 3. it is absolutely necessary for us , if we will be secure of our own land , to keep up a proportionable strength at sea. and besides this necessity in point of safety , it brings innumerable advantages in point of improvement ; carrying from us our own commodities which we can spare from our own use , and in return bringing us whatsoever the world doth afford , for use , delight , strength or ornament . it is a thing by which vast multitudes do alone subsist and altogether depend upon , which great numbers do thrive and flourish by ; by which his majesty hath a brave addition to his revenue , and every man besides doth in his degree find many comforts and conveniencies in his way of living : it is the great employer and rewarder of all sorts of ingenuity and of industry ; by means whereof we every day see men advanced to wealth and honour , to live comfortably to themselves , and with great benefit to their country . it is a thing in it self clear , that trade is very highly and universally beneficial , and those who are but ordinarily versed in it are able to reckon many admirable advantages which i cannot so much as think upon . it remains now that i enquire whether there be any such inconsistency between trade and uniformity in religion , as is generally ( though without any ground which i could ever hear ) pretended ? these two things have in their nature no manner of repugnancy , and if there be any repugnancy , between them , it doth not proceed from them themselves , but from something else , which it is to be hoped may be removed , and neither of these two things the worse for the removal of it ; and what that is i shall now enquire . it is well known that this argument from trade hath been used in former days , when there was no manner of occasion for it ; but however it served as a pretence , whereby to amuse the people , and make them clamour against the government . i instance in the case of my lord of strafford : what a noise was raised all over the town , that there could be no trade in the kingdom till execution was done upon him : and whosoever raiseth any such cry shall have always some ready to joyn with him in it , because there will be always those who will want trade : and let him but tell them that the court and the bishops are the only causes of this their want , and it is no wonder if they cry out with the loudest , down with them , down with them to the ground . indeed if the bishops in england did pretend to the same power with the presbyteries in scotland , then indeed it might so happen that the traders might have some cause to be jealous of them ; for those gentlemen did at the assembly at glascow , 1638. pass an act concerning salmon-fishing ; another about salt-pans , roger l' estrange , p. 330. by act of assembly at dundee 1592. they prohibited all trading with any of the king of spain's dominions , and they put down the munday-market at edinburgh , spotswood , p. 393 , 394. but in this case the shoo-makers thought fit to assert their christian liberty against the impositions of the presbytery , and tumultuously gathered together , and threatned to chase the ministers out of town ; upon which the market continued : which , as that grave historian tells us , did cause much sport at court , where it was said , that rascals and soutars could obtain at the ministers hands what the king could not in matters more reasonable . that trading hath , ever since the restauration of his majesty , been very high , notwithstanding the many complaints about it , it is very evident to any man who is never so little acquainted with the custom-house ; but that it hath not answered to the height of all mens hopes , is not to be wondred at , if we consider some things which have hapned , which the act of uniformity was no way concerned in : first , there was a war with france and holland , by which it was not to be avoided , but that many merchants must needs become very great sufferers : secondly , at the very same time there was a raging plague , not only in london but in most of the other trading places of the nation ; which did not only sweep away great numbers of our trading people , but may easily be supposed to have had an unhappy influence upon trade it self : thirdly , to accompany these two great difficulties there came a dreadful fire , the loss by which is inestimable : and fourthly , there hath been a second dutch war. now there are none of all these things can happen to a nation , but trade must unavoidably suffer by , and feel it ; and then the wonder will be very little if we consider that we have suffered by them all . and these are things so publickly known , that it is to be admired , that men should have the confidence to take no notice of any one of them ; but if they hear of any difficulties which the trading people do wrestle with , presently overlook all these notorious causes , and enter into long harangues about common prayer and ceremonies . i may add that besides the fore-mentioned calamities ; if we are out-done in point of trade by our neighbours in holland , it is not to be wondered at , if we consider the nature of our country , and the manners of our people . our country hath in it self a great plenty of all things necessary for the life of men , which holland hath not ; they must trade or they cannot live , which is not our case : and if necessity makes men expert , and their being expert brings them to thrive ; it is not to be wondred at : it is this very necessity which every day makes vast numbers among them , glad to submit to all the labours & hazards of all the seas in the world , & all this purely to support their lives with very course fare , and very small wages ; now the goodness of our country affording to our people a more comfortable subsistence upon much easier terms than is to be had among them , is one plain cause why our people are not easily to be brought to take that pains , run into those dangers and submit to those severe terms , which with them is not less than absolutely necessary : not to say any thing of the return of their long voyages , what vast advantages do they make by fishing upon our own coasts , which we alwayes complain of , but will by no means betake our selves unto . again he who hath got a vast sum of money by trading , hath here in england a perpetual conveniency of purchasing land with it , and by that means he himself or his son doth become a country gentleman , which in holland is not to be done ; by which means trade is amongst us given over , when men come to be masters of such great sums of money as to be best able to command it , and to reap the most considerable advantages by it : in holland because trade is the thing which every one is to trust to , their wives and children are all instructed in the mysteries , and inured to the business of it , and so the stock and experience of a family descends from father to the son , and increaseth from generation to generation : now it is far from being a miracle , that their merchants should be able to out-do ours , who are frequently left by their parents as large or larger sums of money to begin with , as ours take themselves to be very well satisfied with and give over : they go on and improve what we look upon as more adviseable barely to enjoy , and by that means prevent an increase which would have come easily , and too often waste and consume what they in a few years are by reason of their great stocks inabled without difficulty to treble . and besides that different way of disposure of the plenty of the rich which is between them and us : they make another and greater advantage of the necessities of the poor , than we either do or can do , or it is fit for us to do : they make their people to work harder , fare harder than any of ours will do , to take smaller wages , and by that means they are something helped in being able to under-sell us : and besides the masters of trade do themselves live much more frugally than we do in point of dyet and apparel , and other heights of living , and studiously avoid many unnecessary ways of expence , which we are ( perhaps too apt ) to be fond of . and whatever is expended must needs take off so much from improvement ; which consideration prevails with them to be very sparing till they are very rich , and not to pretend to any of the wayes of vanity , till they have brought themselves into a condition to carry on their material concerns with the best advantage . now is it any wonder , if there were nothing more in the case than this , that in trade they should much out-do us ? and there is little doubt to be made of it , that he who is better acquainted with that people than i am , will be able to reckon many other particular things wherein they differ from us in order to this great design , which have no manner of relation to liberty of conscience , and which would have the same effect without it , as they can possibly have by it . as to our selves and our present case , there are but three things ( which i can learn ) pretended , by reason of which it is possible to be supposed , that the putting the act against conventicles in execution can draw any prejudice upon trade : first , that merchants who are not willing to conform , will not come over and settle in england : secondly , that the most eminent traders being non-conformists , they will either forbear trading to the utter undoing of all such workmen ( as weavers , &c. ) who do depend upon them , or leave the kingdom and carry their profitable trades along with them ; which will bring a great decay of trade here , and carry away that benefit , which england might have received , to that , whatever country they shall please to settle in . thirdly , that merchants beyond sea ( as roman catholicks , &c. ) will not be easily perswaded to trust their estates in the hands of those who are not of their own religion , and they who are , being lyable to such prosecutions as by our laws they are liable unto , will be fearful of having any estates in their own hands , and look upon it as more adviseable to forbear trading , rather than to be liable to so many difficulties ; these are the three most considerable objections which i have hitherto been able to meet with , and to each of these i have this to offer by way of return . as to the first , that this severity will discourage forraign merchants from comming over to us : it is a mistake to think that the church of england is such a bug bear to the rest of the reformation , as that the religion of that is looked upon as sufficient cause to hinder any great numbers of valuable persons from coming over to dwell in the nation . it is by no means clear that any store of them do at this time desire to transplant hither , and if they did , it is more than possible that some other of our civil constitutions may be greater bars in their way , than the act against conventicles , and particularly the want of a register : and that person must have more than ordinary intelligence , who can be able to secure us , that there are such numbers of considerable merchants at this time designing to come over , and are diverted only by the news of the bill against conventicles going to be put into execution ; as that the advantage and addition of those persons , and that trade to the nation should be 〈◊〉 great , as to overbalance those many and unavoidable inconveniencies which i have already shewed , that religion and government must be exposed to , by the grant of liberty of conscience . it doth not remain in our memories that in cromwel's time , when there was liberty given to all except papists and prelatists , that any were by that liberty encouraged to come over , at least not any such number as to be considerable . but suppose it should so happen , that some eminent merchants should design to come over ; i could never yet hear , nor am i wise enough to think upon any reason , why the act against conventicles should more fright them from england , than the inquisition doth from other countries , as spain , italy , and portugal ; and yet in those countries merchants have their factories , and drive their greatest trade : besides strangers merchants have as much encouragement in this particular , as can reasonably be desired ; the french have their church , the dutch theirs ; nay , even the iews have theirs , and all aliens of 〈◊〉 reformation have even by the very act of uniformity an express provision made for them , as to the enjoyment of their own way of worship at the pleasure of his majesty ; and if they do meet and keep to their own language , they need fear no more in this country than in any other . as to the second thing alledged , that if the act against conventicles be put in execution , the most eminent traders being non-conformists , they will leave off trading , and by that means undo all sorts of workmen who do depend upon them , and not only so , but leave the nation , and carry their trades away along with them . now that this is a thing of more noise than weight , will appear if we examine it with a little care. that some eminent merchants are non-conformists is undoubtedly true ; but that the most eminent are so , i am sure is not true , and could easily make it appear , if it were fit to mention the names of particular persons : but so far as it is true , doth any man in his wits imagine , that the act against conventicles will make them either quit their profitable . trades , or fright them out of the kingdom ? it doth neither condemn them to be hanged nor burned , neither doth it so much as touch their persons or estates for being non-conformists , but permits them to be of what religion they please , and alloweth them the free exercise of their religion in their families : it cannot therefore be easily imagined , that people will be so far out of their wits ( though i must confess that fanaticism will go a great way toward putting them out of them ) as to leave their settled and profitable trades , their native country , relations and friends , only because they cannot publickly shew the exercise of their mode of worship ; whereas they may freely enjoy it in their own families , and be known to do so , without the least interruption in any of the forementioned conveniencies : especially considering , that merchants of that eminency , that their case deserves to be taken notice of in a case of this publick concern now under debate , are very well able to keep ministers in thier own houses , and may do it with far less charge and prejudice , than either going into some other countrey , or the forbearance of their trades will put them to . but i shall for once suppose two things , whereof the first is evidently not true ; the second not at all likely , that the most eminent merchants are non-conformists , and that upon that account they will forbear trading : but even upon these terms it is to be hoped that those they deal with will not be utterly undone , whatever may be pretended : for put the case that three or four of the most eminent merchants should dy , or ( which i wish did never happen ) break ; every dayes experience shews us , that the clothiers they deal with , and consequently the weavers , and other workmen depending upon them , are not presently ruined , or so much as out of employment , but do immediately find other merchants to deal with ; the trades of those who either give over trading , or dy , being alwayes continued by their sons , or partners , or shared amongst those who have been their servants , or other merchants who deal in the same commodity , and to the same places . but suppose that the putting the laws in execution should so far distract any numbers , as to make them run out of the kingdom : let it be considered whither they will run , only into holland , where they cannot more freely enjoy the exercise of their religion in their own families , nor converse more freely with one another about it , than they may do here in england . all the difference is , that here they cannot meet in great numbers , and i leave it even to the non-conformists themselves to judge , whether that one conveniency of meeting in great numbers be a sufficient enticement to any rational man to exchange england for holland ? but put the case , that they do go into holland , or into some other country ; i did never yet meet with any man who could demonstrate to me how they could carry away their trade of merchandizing , though they were never so willing ; live in holland they may , and drive their usual trades here in england by their correspondents , in which case the nation will only loose the common profit of their eating , drinking and wearing : but to carry away the trade of the nation with them , is not possible , if they leave any merchants behind , as i am sure they will many more , and more considerable than any who will go away ; and by withdrawing themselves into other countries , they will but leave their trades to be shared amongst better men and better subjects ; so that by leaving the kingdom , instead of prejudicing , they would occasion a very great blessing unto it , by carrying away with them the divisions , but not at all the trade of the nation . when the act against conventicles was first made , this argument against it from trade was much insisted on , and i remember a story was raised about some great dealers in the west , who had with-drawn their stock , left off all business , by which means vast numbers of poor people , who did depend on them , were utterly undone : this matter seemed so considerable , as that several of the most eminent persons in the nation did meet together to consult about a remedy for so great , and as it was said , so growing an evil . but when this matter came to be enquired into , i could never learn that it had any thing more than a great deal of noise in it . there is an eminent city in this nation , inferiour perhaps to none except london , wherein this artifice was made use of to fright the magistrates from suppressing the conventicles : a great rumour was spread up and down , that if they might not have liberty to meet as formerly , then they would all with-draw their stocks , which would be a great detriment to his majesty , and a vast loss to the city , and leave the poor to be provided for by their respective parishes . but the raisers of all this clamour did quickly find that they had to do with those who were at least as great masters of trade as themselves , and accordingly it was undertaken by those who were very well able to make it good ; that if the dissenters did think fit to withdraw their stocks , there should immediate care be taken that the trade of the city should be carried on to the very same height which it was at , without the least abatement , or leaving any one work-man out of as good an employment as he had before : it was so far from being feared , that it was desired that they would withdraw their stocks , and that they may be the better encouraged to the so doing , provided that they would give security that they will not trade at all , neither by themselves , or others for them , nor in other mens names , they shall at any time have a good sum of money given them , if that may move them to it . let us not be vainly afraid , where no fear is : do we know the non-conformists no better than so , that we should suspect them of being apt to give over their profitable trades ? it had been a more rational jealousie to have looked upon them as more intent upon any imaginable way of getting of money , than on any settlement of religion , of what sort soever : and perhaps it would be not only no ill experiment to destroy this argument , but withall as likely a way to reduce them , as any which can be thought upon ; if there were a law , that those who refuse to conform , or at least who meet at conventicles , should not be permitted to trade : such a law indeed would be terrible to them ▪ and i hope the bare mention of it will make them forbear to use this kind of threatning us with that , which to themselves alone will be , if at all , dreadful . as to the third objection , that merchants beyond seas ( as roman catholicks , &c. ) will be afraid to trust their estates in the hands of those who are not of their own religion , &c. it is of so little weight as to require but a very few words ; it being evident that all kinds of merchants at this day do correspond , and alwayes have corresponded with others not of their own religion , papists with protestants , protestants with papists , &c. what other pretences there are in this case , wherein trade may seem concerned , i do not at present call to mind , and therefore shall go on to the next suggestion why a toleration of several wayes of religion may not do as well here as it doth amongst our neighbours in france and holland . as to france , the different professions of religion there , hath not been without many sad effects upon both parties , and hath so sanctified the animosities on each side , that it hath prevailed upon both , out of zeal to god , to let aliens and enemies into the bowels of their native country . but their case and ours is vastly different ; the hugonots , who are there tolerated , have those merits to plead which our non conformists have not ; and besides , they do not divide into several communions among themselves , neither would any such thing be permitted either by the government , or by the reformed church it self . as to holland , liberty of conscience is a thing which they were not brought to admit of by second thoughts , and after mature deliberation , but were necessitated upon by the nature of that cause upon which they first united among themselves , and the constitution of that government they fell into . one part of their cause was a deliverance from the impositions of the church of rome , as exercised after the imperious manner of the spanish government : now liberty in matters of conscience was the most natural word in the world in this case to be made use of ; freedom from the present pressures was the thing immediately in their eye , and many of their neighbours at the same time had the same aim : and as they were then only agreed what they would not have , but not at all what they would have , they invited all , that all might come to their assistance . but besides this , one religion was not easie to be brought into so many several independent governments , as go to the making up of those states . for as sr. william temple tells us , chap. 2. of their government , p. 75. they are not a common-wealth , but a confederacy of seven soveraign provinces united together for their common and mutual defence , without any dependance one upon another , &c. nay farther , that each of these provinces is likewise composed of so many little states and cities , which have several marks of sovereignty within themselves , & are not subject to the sovereignty of the province ; not being concluded in many things by the majority , but only by the universal concurrence of voyces in the provincial states . to this let us add the great variety of persons which by reason of the wars and persecutions of those times , came into , and embodied with them , out of france , germany , england ; and is it to be wondred at , if not knowing how to agree in any one way they permitted divers ? such a kind of liberty therefore as is now contended for amongst us , cannot so properly be said to be given by these states , as to have grown up with them ; and though it be a part of their nature , is one of their inconveniencies ; and this hath not been unperceived by them . in the affair of barnevelt it was found that religious differences could find a way of intermingling themselves with state-quarrels , and the states did then think fit to make laws about what they called erroneous in point of doctrine . as to religion the effects of liberty of conscience are in those countries plainly to be seen in the daily growth of popery and socinianism , and of men altogether indifferent , as to all kinds of articles of belief ; things which by the same means may be brought into england , and indeed upon the admittance of which , are not to be kept out of it . the states of the united provinces may indeed keep themselves safe from all disturbances which may arise from enthusiastick lunacies , by reason of their garrisons and standing army , without which no security can be had against the dangers of toleration . and seing that the case of england is in both these respects very different from that of holland , & it is to be hoped is intended so to continue , an argument of this nature taken from them ought by no means to be looked upon as what ought to conclude us by it . now that the argument from holland ought by no means to be looked upon as conclusive to us , either as to comprehension or as to toleration , doth appear in these two things : 1. in the constitution of our government , as being very different from theirs ; 2. in the condition of those people amongst us who dissent from the government . 1. as to the constitution of our government , comprehension is with us much more unsafe than the same thing would be in holland ; because the preachers do there depend altogether upon the states pay , and have no other tenure but during pleasure ; whereas a beneficed man with us hath a free-hold , and is not to be turned out but by a legal way : by which advantage he may fence with authority , and may publicky deliver such things which the people may very well understand , and yet the law may not be able to take any hold of him . and of this , i doubt , we should have sudden experience , if these men could be admited by law into sure and certain possessions upon their own terms ; and i am the more apt to suspect this , because i could never yet hear that this sort of men was ever wrought upon by being yielded to : and if their gratitude and good nature should upon this occasion begin , it will be so much the more welcome as it is less expected . but as comprehension among us , considering the persons who do desire it , and their declared principles , is much more unsafe than the same thing would be in holland , by reason of the constitution of our government in reference to the clergy ; so likewise for the same reason is toleration more unsafe here than it would be there , if we do consider the temper of those people who dissent from us . holland , as i have already mentioned , hath a standing army , and so considerable a one , that the publick peace shall infallibly be secured by it , whether their preachers , or whoever else can be perswaded by them , will or no. and how confidently soever the argument from holland is now adays made use of , to induce us to grant the like liberty , there was a time when this very argument was looked upon with great scorn : the author of wholsome severity , &c. doth censure the states of the united provinces with great sharpness upon this occasion , p. 30. and compares the toleration there given to differing sorts of dissenters , to the toleration given by the pope to courtizans . and besides , the various sorts of perswasions there do not use to question the lawfulness of tolerating one another , as ours have always done . i have already shewed , that the presbyterians would by no means tolerate the independents , if they knew how to help it ; and i shall now in a word shew , how unwilling the independents are to tolerate the presbyterians , or other sects which in their inclinations they do not favour . and this is no new discovery of mine , but a thing which did discover it self as early as there was occasion for it , as we read in teh forementioned book called wholsome severity reconciled with chistian liberty , p. 19. in new england there hath been severity enough ( to say no worse ) used against hereticks and schismaticks . and here i must appeal to the consciences of those who now plead so much for liberty of conscience and toleration in this kingdom ; were they able to root out the presbyterians and their way , and could find civil authority inclinable to put forth the coercive power against it , whether in that case would they not say , that the magistrate may repress it by strong hand , if it be not otherwise to be repressed ? it is not without cause that i put this quaere to them ; for m. s. p. 50. doth allow of the magistrates fighting against a doctrine which is indeed superstition , heresie or schism , and only pretendeth to be from god , when it is indeed from men . also that pamphlet called , as you were , p. 3. tells us , that it was neither gamaliel's meaning , nor mr. goodwins , that every way pretending to be from god must be let alone ; but that only we are to refrain and let it alone till we are out of danger of fighting against god , while we endeavour to overthrow it . now i assume that there are some who plead for liberty of conscience , who profess that they are certain , and fully assured upon demonstrative proofs , that the presbyterial way is not from god nor according to the mind of iesus christ : therefore according to their principles , they must allow of the putting forth of the civil coercive power against the presbyterial way , &c. mr. sterry likewise , who was the great preacher at whitehall in the dayes of mr. oliver cromwel , in a sermon preached , nov. 5. 1651. called england 's deliverance from the northern presbytery , compared with its deliverance from the roman papacy , upon ier. 16. 14 , 15. it shall no more be said , the lord liveth that brought up the children of israel out of the land of egypt ; but the lord liveth that brought up the children of israel out of the land of the north , &c. which sermon was printed by order of those gentlemen who pleased to call themselves a parliament , gives us such an account of the presbyterians , as was very grateful to the powers then in being ( though it was to the presbyterians that they owed their very being ; ) i shall lay down his very words : in his epistle he saith thus ; right honorable , i have desired in my preaching , in my prayers , to work with god even for the opening of the eyes of men , to see that the same spirit which lay in the polluted bed of papacy may meet them in the perfumed bed of presbytery , &c. to which purpose i have in my sermon represented the same spirit which dwells in the papacy , when it enters into the pvrer form of presbytery , as fvller of mystery , so fvller of despite and danger , &c. in the sermon it self ; many daughters have done vertuously , but thou excellest them all : so may england now say to the lord , in many mercies , as especially that in saving us from this bloody design of the egyptian papacy , thou hast done graciously and wonderfully ; but this last mercy , by which thou savest us from the black plots and bloody powers of the northern presbytery hath exceeded them all . and in that sermon he doth all along prefer the papists before the presbyterians , the consequence of which doth not amount to toleration of them : nay , our brethren in new-england , though their constitution hath as much of liberty of conscience in it , as any place in the world , yet have found it to be a thing so very troublesom , as that they are grown quite weary of , and have put very severe restraints upon it : of which in the second part of the excellent friendly debate , p. 227. and the third part , p. 224. any man may be abundantly satisfied ; and it is well known that quakers were hanged in new-england , which was a severity they did not meet with , either at rome or at constantinople . mr. edwards in his answer to the apologetical narration , p. 244. draweth an argument against toleration from the judgment of the divines in new england , who are against the toleration of any church government , or way but one . for the discipline of iesus christ ( as we have it in church government and church covenant discussed ( question 31. ) is not arbitrary , that one church may practise one form , and another another form , as each one shall please , but is one and the same for all churches , and in all the essentials and substantials of it unchangeable , and to be kept till the appearing of iesus christ : and if that discipline which we here practise be ( as we are perswaded of it ) the same which christ hath appointed , and therefore unalterable , we see not how another may be lawful : upon which account they will not in new-england tolerate brownists , anabaptists , antinomians , quakers , and so careful they are in this matter , that they make such enquiries into the inward sentiments of the minds even of the laity , as among us are not usual ; and in such points too wherein the publick government is not concerned . mr. cotton the greatest divine in new-england , and a precious man , is against toleration , and holds that men may be punished for their consciences , as appears by his letter to mr. williams , & mr. williams his answer , both printed , & his exposition on the vials , vial. 3. p. 16 , 17. & vial. 4. p. 17. where he answers this objection , conscience should not be forced , and this is his answer ; why do you think that hereticks were not as conscionable in the old testament as now ? if any man had a conscience to turn men from god , he would have men of as much conscience to cut them off : so that upon the whole matter it doth appear that this loud demand of toleration is a very disingenious , nay a dishonest one ; because it is asked by those who ( if the power were in their hands ) would neither allow it to those they now ask it of , no nor so much as permit it to one another . one instance of their barbarity in this kind will not be tedious ; the presbyterians denied his late majesty the attendance of his own chaplains in his own family , for the exercise of his own devotion ; and as the presbyterians denied him the use of the common-prayer whilst he was alive , the independents would not allow him to be buried by it after he was dead . let them reflect a little upon their own demeanour in this case , and then be as loud as they please in crying out for moderation ; tenderness , forbearance , condi●cension . and so i go on to the last objecti●n , that civil penalties do only make hypocrites . this were an excellent argument against all laws whatsoever if it were well pursued ; but on the other side i take it to be a very clear case , that toleration makes hypocrites ; for it renders it safe for any man , in order to whatever end , to pretend some dissatisfactions against the present ecclesiastical constitutions , when in his own mind he hath none : and this effect it hath had from the first moment of his majesties restauration , unto this time : many preachers then possessed of benefices went away from them , because the right owners returned to them again , and yet these men pretended scruples against the common prayer and ceremonies , and so were looked upon as sufferers for their conscience , and have ever since subsisted upon the strength of such pretensions : of those who by the death of the right incumbents continued in their ill-got possessions till the act of uniformity : how many refused to conform more out of shame than conscience ? they could not without blushing practise those things which they formerly preached against , especially in the same place where they had done so ; and accordingly some have conformed in other countries than where they lived before , and more did proffer it , if they could have obtained to have been provided for : and of those who did go out at saint bartholomews day , 1662. how many were there who went out upon the great assurance which they had from their agents in london of returning again in a few weeks with honour ? and among the people how many are there who go to conventicles meerly to get custom , as finding it to be a succesful way , by becoming members of such a church , to get the trade of such a party . i have now considered the inconveniencies of that fine project called liberty of conscience , and the various pretences by which of late it hath been recommended to us : how much soever these imperfect reasonings of mine may have fallen below the dignity of the argument , i shall be so just to my cause , as to refer the reader where he may receive compleat and abundant satisfaction , viz. to those excellent votes of the honourable house of commons , february 25. 1662. where there is a full state of this affair drawn up with an equal height of piety and wisdom ; the reasons full and clear , carrying in them all the advantages of strength and evidence : those renowned gentlemen did then shew that they were able with their pens to give an account of that cause , for which very many of themselves , and , fathers did honourably draw their swords , and knew very well how to assert that church by all the rules of christian prudence , as well as they did formerly set inimitable patterns of christian courage in suffering for it . there we may see and admire how those glorious worthies came up to the greatness of themselves , and of the argument ; and indeed they were both worthy of one another , they to defend , and that to be defended ; and as nothing was ever better penned than those reasons , so there was scarce ever a better occasion ; the best church in europe , was then bore witness to by the best house of commons which ever sat in this nation : those votes shall for ever remain as a lasting monument as of the zeal and religion , so of the incomparable endowments and abilities of those who drew them up . and now i shall presume to offer a few words to our dissenting brethren , that they would seriously bethink themselves what the causes of their separation are , how few , how slight ; that they would with them compare the effects of it , what they have been , what they are , what they may come to be : such things have already been brought about in church and state ( by means of those divisions which the soberest among you did begin and foment , and none but they were valuable enough to give support and countenance unto ) as they themselves ( we are perswaded ) did not intend , nor would fore-see till they found it too late for to prevent them : alterations are things which the generality are naturally apt to be very fond of , but it is very seldom , and for a very little while , that they are found to answer the hopes conceived of them : indeed if it were once agreed upon what those things were which would give a general satisfaction , and put an absolute end to this long and uhappy controversie , such a proposal were at least worth a consideration : but if there be as great variety of demands as persons , and if it be as earnestly desired among great numbers , that their neighbours should not be indulged , as that themselves should , and we have for many years found it by a dear bought experience , that when men are once gone beyond the rule , they wander every where , and without end ; why should you not at last look upon it as adviseable to return to the rule again ? especially considering , that those of the greatest consideration among you are not against the having any rule at all , neither as yet have you been able to agree upon any other . if it be to be wished that there should be any church at all , that church must have articles , and must have canons ; there is not the smallest society in the world can be kept together in order to the meanest end , but there must be some rules which all its members must submit unto , and be guided by : if therefore there ought to be kept up among us any such thing as the assembling our selves together in order to the publick worship of almighty god , then this must be done at some time , in some place , and after some manner , in some words , and by some person appointed to attend upon the doing it : now if there be nothing of all this left to be determined by humane wisdom and authority , but that this whole thing with every one of all the circumstances of it are already determined in holy writ : the church of england would be so far from opposing any thing of this , that she would gladly conform in all particulars to these divine establishments , and would be hugely thankful to any of our dissenting brethren , if they will please to shew her whereabouts she may read the form of publick worship , and withal the precise method of that order and decency which ought to be used in it : for she hath been hitherto so unhappy , as not to know of any but general directions , which she hath endeavoured with all faithfulness to pursue : but after this discovery she will take care , that her children shall serve god in no other way than that of his own immediate appointment , if she can but once learn directions where to meet with it . but if there be no such way of worship , both for the thing it self and all its circumstances , prescribed by god ; then so much of it as is not done by god , must unavoidably be done by such men whom god hath set over us , and who in such cases are to be to us instead of god. and let us consider , that the ceremonies which are retained are very few , very ancient , and very becoming ; and to prevent all jealousies of the least manner of superstition in the retaining them , the church hath taken care to declare against all the abuses which they were liable unto in the times of popery . you value your selves upon being successors to the old puritans ; but do you imagine that they would in the least have allowed many of those things which you have been the authors of , or at least of which you have been the instruments , and into which we hope you were not brought by any formed resolutions of your own , but driven upon by those necessities in your affairs which your zeal had unawares drawn you into ? instead therefore of being jealous of any concealed mischiefs in a few decent rites and comely usages , you are highly concerned to remember what have been the evils of your own schism , which you know your selves to have begun , and we are willing to believe did not see to the dismal end of ; and which upon your own principles you will never be able to provide against : the liberties which you take , have encouraged and defended others in taking such liberties , as no doubt you have been often sorry to see your selves undeniably alledged as patrons and examples of . and unless you can alledge some more necessary causes of separation than you hitherto have been able , you must be very partial judges in your own case , if you do not look upon your selves as responsible for the consequences of all those separations , which by your arms and authority any else was enabled to make , first with you and after from you . whatever suspicions you may entertain concerning conformity , you will never be able to make a bar strong enough to keep out the dreadful effects of non-conformity . if no settlement is to be complied with , but such a one which each particular man doth in his own private thoughts take to be the most adviseable in all respects as to matter and circumstance , and no longer than it doth appear to be so , then there is never like to be any settlement in the world , at least not of any long continuance . i shall in this case make use only of the words of an eminent non-conformist , in a treatise which i have already mentioned , entituled , of the religion of england , asserting , that the reformed christianity settled in its latitude is the stability of the kingdom , p. 28. such is the complicated condition of humane affairs , that it is exceeding difficult to devise a rule or model that shall provide for all whom equity will plead for : therefore the prudent and sober will acquiesee in any constitution that is in some sort proportionable to the ends of government . and again , p. 38. nevertheless , if , when all is said , some dissatisfaction doth invincibly possess the iudgment , in that case christian humility and charity as well as discretion adviseth such persons to acquiesoe in their private security and freedom , and not to reach after that liberty that may unsettle the publick order , and ●●dermine the common safety . although it be a great , a seasonable and a concerning truth , that it is more glorious to confess an error than to continue in one , yet because it may seem a severe truth , i shall no more than barely mention it : if in earnest you are at least weary of divisions , do all which in you lieth on your part to put an end to them ; and this you cannot pretend to have done , till you have complied with the publick order as far as you believe you may lawfully , and where you cannot obey you may yet be silent . if there be a ceremony which any one among you believes that he ought not to conform to , doth it thence follow , that he is obliged to make parties against it , and for the sake of that one to abstain from all the rest , and to avoid all those other parts of the church-service and communion , where the rite which he scruples hath no manner of place ? again , when from the cause you fly into great commendations of your party , you should do well to avoid such expressions as , instead of tending to bespeak the favour and compassion of authority , do rather tend to awake its caution and to raise its jealousie : that which doth but look like a threatning is by no means fit for an inferiour to put into his supplication . not only the honour , but the safety of all government doth depend upon this , to demurr at least upon the granting of that request , which he who puts it up doth actually take before he asks , and in the very form of his asking it , doth more than insinuate the great danger which may be in denying him . and this methinks doth appear to have been an indecorum in your eminent advocate in his discourse of the religion of england , p. 23. sect. 11. how momentous in the ballance of the nation those protestants are that dissent from the present ecclesiastical policy : where he tells us of their great number , their great interest , their great commerce , their many relations , their great understandings and discretion ; and in the close of all he adds , nor do they want the rational courage of english men the meaning of which words are at least very suspicious , as to the king , and as to the church : since the late discourses of their endeavours after an union , their former separations do not only continue , but are managed in the same manner as formerly : on their parts we do not hear of any beginnings toward a complyance : one man indeed there was who made a profession of something of this , but what reserves he had in his mind , whereby to render that profession of his insignificant , let his after-practises teach us , and withall give us warning what trust to repose in any general though never so fair promises . and thus i have briefly and plainly laid down some of the most obvious exceptions against the late much discoursed of projects , comprehension , toleration , and a third made up of both them : comprehension may indeed proceed from an excess of goodness in those who are ready to grant it ; but it is not very clear that those who are the most likely to desire it ; will be most ready to make a good use of it : indeed as to the thing it self , it is kept so much in the dark , that it is not , except by some very few , if by any , understood , who they are who either do desire or would accept it , or upon what terms it would be either given or taken ; and as the nature of this thing is unknown , so will the issue be most uncertain . as to those two abatements which are usually mentioned , the taking away of assent and consent , and dispensing with the obligation of renouncing the covenant ; they are things which carry great and apparent dangers in them . he who desires to be excused from giving his assent and consent , can hardly be able to give any other account of that his desire than this : that he doth not believe the doctrine of the church , or doth not mean to conform to the orders of it . as to the other particular , the dispensing with the renouncing of the covenant ; the very proposal is methinks a very bold one , if we consider what was the occasion of the covenant ; who were the authors ; the time in which it was entred into , the ends in order to which , what are the contents of it , & how perpetual & indispensible they have all along declared the obligation of it to be , what effects it hath had already , & at any time may have upon the king , the church , the nation , and in an especial manner , upon the old cavaliers . and then as to toleration , i have shewed the inconveniencies to be innumerable and unavoidable , which it may at any time bring upon either of them ; there is no imposture which at this door standing alwayes open , may not enter into the church : no danger which by a dexterous management of such an unbounded licence , may not have a very fair & easie passage made for it into the state. and as for any mixture of these two contrivances , it will be so long before the bounds and limits can be agreed upon to be set between them ; so many things are to be considered of , before these two can with any satisfaction to either be suited to one another , that an enquiry may i suppose be safely put off until a time of greater leisure . the end. a postscript to the reader . when i had put an end , as i thought to your trouble ( good reader ) and my own , there came to my hands a new pamphlet , entituled , certain considerations tending to promote peace and good will amongst protestants , very useful for the present times : the design of which is to promote the forementioned comprehension , which the author doth endeavour to put a very good colour upon by laying down several propositions ; the third of which is this , that the late civil wars in england were not begun for the extirpation of episcopacy and liturgy , or to settle the presbyterian government here , but merely for civil rights , as he adds afterwards . now if this gentleman only means , that the grandees of the party had in their hearts no manner of zeal for or against any form of religion , any farther than as thei● other ends and designs were carried on by it , i shall readily grant it him ; ●ay , i shall say this farther , that , besides religion , the civil rights of the nation were but plausible colours , by which the leading men of that party did set off their other ends ; such as revenge , humour , discontent , covetousness and ambition . and this they were told publickly by one whom they knew to be able to make it good , in the excellent declaration of aug. 12. 1642. themselves know what overtures have been made by them , and with what importunity for offices and preferments , what great services should have been done for us , and what other undertakings were ( even to the saving the life of the earl of strafford ) if we would confer , such offices upon them . but that religion was the thing which they did make shew of , and by which they drew abundance of well meaning but deluded people to their assistan●● , is so plain , and known so publickly , that it is no little wonder , that any should offer to outs●●● the nation in so no●●●ious a case . did not every press and every pulpit declare against episcopacy , liturgy and cere●onies ? did not the lords and commons , by their votes of march 12. 1642. resolve upon the question , that an army be forthwith raised for the safety of the kings person , &c. and preserving the true religion ? &c. did they not in iuly following put forth a delaration concerning the miserable distractions and grievances this kingdom now lieth in , by means of jesuitical and wicked cousellours now about his majesty ? wherein they tell us over and over again of the protestant religion , a great change of religion ; that they should be for ever earnest to prevent ● civil war and those miserable effects which it must needs produce , if they may be avoided without the alteration of religion , &c. and in their resolutions to live and die with the earl of essex , they tell us , that their army was raised , for the maintenance of the true protestant religion . the pla●e , wedding-rings , thimbles and bodkins had never been brought in , if it had not been that the cause was so often called , the cause of god. let any man read the remonstrances and declarations of the two houses , and then see whether religion was not one of those things which they all along declared their zeal for ; and accordingly in all the parliaments quarters , the poor surplice , the organs and the common prayer-book were the first objects of all their fury . but because this present design of comprehension is particularly intended to gratifie some clergy-men , let us enquire under what name they recommended the war unto the people : was it not under the name of gods cause ; the setting christ on his throne ; fighting the lords battels ? there is a collection of their sermons printed , which will not suffer any man to doubt of this ; out of which there is enough gathered to this purpose in , evangelium armatum . and this mr. baxter hath in a late book confessed as to himself : when the wars began , though the cause it self lay i● controversies between king and parliament ; yet the thoughts that the church and godliness it self was deeply in danger by persecution and arminia●is● did much more to byass me to the parliaments side , than the civil interest ( which at the heart i little regarded . ) this author likewise confesseth , that whatever was the cause at the first , it soon became a war for religion . and mr. love , a person mentioned by this author as one of great merit , in his sermon at the vxbridge treaty complains of the so long letting alone the two plague-sores of episcopacy and common prayer-book . the seventh proposition is this , that the parliamentarians in the beginning of our troubles declared , to abhorr and detest all designs of deposing and murthering his late sacred majesty . that they did declare against any such thing i readily grant , and , amongst other reasons , for this , laid down by our author , that it had been else impossible for them to have gained the people as they did . but that there were among the chief contrivers of the wars , those who had a design upon the kings crown and life , is a thing where of there is great evidence . if it be lawful to fight with a king , why is it not lawful to kill him ? swords and bullets are things which are by no means to be used against that person which we think we ought not to destroy : and of the great danger which his majesties person was in at the battel at edge-hill , himself hath informed us in a declaration on that subject . and in the remonstrance of may 26. 1642. the lords and commons did plainly assume to themselves a right to depose the king , in these words ; if we should make the highest precedents of former parliaments our patterns , there would be no cause to complain of want of modesty and duty in us , when we have not so much as suffered those things to enter into our thoughts , which all the world knows they put in act . in which words there is thus much plainly contained , that whatever former parliaments have done , they take themselves to have a right to do ; now former parliaments have been over-awed into the deposing of kings : now that they had their eyes upon those particular proceedings of former parliaments , appears by those words , all the world knows what they put in act : his majesty in his answer to that declaration of theirs , tells us of two gentlemen who said publickly , unreproved in the parliament house , one , that the h●ppiness of this kingdom did not depend upon him , or upon any of the royal branches of that root ; another , that he was not worthy to be king of england : and as for the royal power it was plainly demanded from him in the nineteen propositions . the eighth consideration is this , that the non-conforming presbyteri●●● had both their hearts and hands in the restauration of his majesty to his royal throne , for which mr. love , and mr. gibbons lost their heads . of all things i should least have e●pected , that the advocates for the presbyterians should have insisted upon their merits to his majesty , or the royal family , for which their best apology is the act of oblivion ; and if they would have insisted , yet however methinks they should of all men not have made mr. love the person to have insisted on : as for that party of the scots , which he corresponded with ; it is no part of their wisdom to remind his majesty of the usage which he found from them . as to mr. love , the learned author of sa●aritanism hath informed us ; p. 152. that at the execution of archbishop la●d , he uttered these words with great triumph , art thou come little will ? i am glad to see thee here , and hope to see the nest of the bishops here e're long ; and having dipped his handkerchief in his blood , he rode with it to vxbridge , and used these words ; here is the blood of that proud prelate , i hope for more of their bloods e're long . and this doth against my will lead me to the consideration of his sermon at vxbridge , at the time of the treaty . amongst many scandals cast upon the king , he herein compares him to charles the ninth of france , who after a treaty of peace made the massacre , and to antiochus , of whom we read , dan. 11. 23. that through his policy he shall cause craft to prosper i● his hand , and by peace shall destroy m●ny , and , after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully : after these great complements toward the king , he tells us in his preface ; 't is the sword , not disputes or treaties which must end this controversie , wherefore turn your plowshares into swords , and your pruning-hooks into spears to fight the lords's battles , to avenge the blood of the saints which hath been spilt , it must be avenged either by us , or upon us : let me but quote the words of the prophet jeremiah , chap. 48. vers . 10. cursed be he that doth the work of the lord negligently : cursed be he that keepeth his sword from blood , &c. and i will be bold to say this , that the most malicious suggestions which are insisted upon in the votes of non-address are to be met with in one page of that sermon , p. 32. we read 't was the lord who troubled achan , because he troubled israel . o that in this our state-physicians would resemble god , to cut off those from the land who have distempered it . meli●s est ●t per●at vnus quam vnitas . he tells us , pag. 36 , 37 , of three sorts of persons , with whom peace is not to be made : first , truce-breakers : o what deceitful work hath our parliament met with on the very nick of treaties for peace , &c. secondly , idolaters are not meet persons to have a peace with , jehosaphat was checked for having an affinity with ahab an idolatrons king , because he loved him that hated the lord , therefore wrath was upon him from the lord : but asa ●as commended because he removed maachah from being queen , because she was an idolatress : i may say , what jehu said to joram , what peace can there be so long as the whoredoms of jezebel the queen are so many , we may make peace with papists now , but who will give us assurance that they will keep their covenants : thirdly , men wholly under the guilt of much innocent blood are not meet persons to be at peace with , till all the guilt of blood be expiated and avenged , either by t●e sword of the law , or the law of the sword , else a peace can neither be safe nor just , and pag. 42. are peace and truth the ingredients which must heal us ? o then dote not too much upon this treaty of peace , which is this day beginning : and again , will the blood-thirsty rebels of ireland , the idolatrous papists of england , the pompous prelats , the rest of the corrupt clergy , and the profaner sort of the nation , who joyn hand in hand together : are these likely to be patrons of truth ? deceive not your selves , there is little likelihood of peace with such : what i said before , i say again , either they must grow better , or we must wax worse , before we can agree . i should willingly have suffered these things to sleep , but that our author forced me upon it , by insisting upon the merits of mr. love , and mr. love himself in his speech upon the scaffold justifies himself as to all that he had done in relation to the publick differences ; i bless my god , i am free from the blood of all men , &c. i do declare that i dy with my iudgment set against malignity , i do h●●e both name and thing , i still retain as vehement a detestation of malignant interest as ever i did : and again , i dy cleaving to all those oaths , vows , covenants , protestations , that were imposed by the two houses of parliament , as owning them , and in dying with my iudgment for them . to the protestation , the vow and covenant , the solemn league and covenant . this author cannot deserve any way so well of the party he pleads for , as not to give us occasion to enquire into past matters : for whatever inconveniencies may be expected from comprehension or toleration , by the nature of the things themselves , they will be found to be very much ascertained and increased , if we consider the persons who do desire either of them : i suppose we shall hear no more of the merits of love , and if this gentleman doth think fit to change him for any other instance : i shall advise that he would pitch upon such a person as hath wrote nothing , nor been in any publick employment , lest otherwise he should force us upon those enquiries which will be , it is to be doubted little for the credit of him whose name is brought in question , and which i shall take very little delight in . the end. a brief catalogue 〈◊〉 books newly printted and repri●ted for r. royston ; bookseller to his most sacred majesty . antiquitates christiane , or , the history of the life and death of the holy jesus , as also , the lives , acts , and martyrdoms of his apostles . in two parts , the first part containing the life of christ , written by ieremy taylor , late bishop of down and connor ; the second , containing the lives of the apostles , by william cave , d. d. chaplain in ordinary to his majesty . the second part of the practical christian , consisting of meditations and psalms , illustrated with notes , or paraphrased ; relating to the hours of prayer , the ordinary actions of day and night , and several dispositions of men. by r. sherlock , d. d. rector of winrvick . a serious and compassionate enquiry into the causes of the present neglect and contempt of the protestant religion and church of england , &c. the third edition . a collection of several treatises concerning the reasons and occasions of the penal laws . viz. i. the execution of justice in england , not for religion , but for treason : written by the lord treasurer burleig● , 17 dec. 1583. ii. important considerations , by the secular priests : printed a. d. 1601. iii. the iesuits reasons unreasonable : 1662. the end. toleration discuss'd, in two dialogues i. betwixt a conformist, and a non-conformist ... ii. betwixt a presbyterian, and an independent ... l'estrange, roger, sir, 1616-1704. 1670 approx. 505 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 183 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a47928 wing l1316 estc r1454 12306009 ocm 12306009 59253 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online text creation partnership. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a47928) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 59253) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 921:15) toleration discuss'd, in two dialogues i. betwixt a conformist, and a non-conformist ... ii. betwixt a presbyterian, and an independent ... l'estrange, roger, sir, 1616-1704. [8], 350 p. printed by e.c. and a.c. for henry brome ..., london : 1670. reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, newyork. table of contents: p. [3]-[8] attributed to roger l'estrange. cf. nuc pre-1956. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng dissenters, religious -england. toleration. freedom of religion -great britain. 2003-11 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-12 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-01 rina kor sampled and proofread 2004-01 rina kor text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion toleration discuss'd ; in two dialogues . i. betwixt a conformist , and a non-conformist ; laying open the impiety , and danger of a general liberty . ii. betwixt a presbyterian , and an independent ; concluding , upon an impartial examination of their respective practises , and opinions , in favour of the independent . vaevobis , hypocritae ! london , printed by e. c. and a. c. for henry brome at the gun in ludgate-street , at the west end of st. paul's . 1670. to the reader . the contents . section i. universal toleration too wide , and unlawful . page 3 sect . ii. limited toleration too narrow , and disobliging to the excluded party . 15 sect . iii. no toleration to be admitted , but with the allowance of the chief magistrate . 18 sect . iv. the bounds of toleration . and the error of making fundamentals and non fundamentals to be the measure of it . 23 sect . v. the common arguments for toleration , examined . 29 sect . vi. toleration undermines the law , and causes confusion both in church , and state. page 36 sect . vii . the non-conformist's plea for toleration , upon reason of state . 43 sect . viii . the non-conformist's plea for toleration , from the merits of the party . 52 sect . ix . the non-conformist's plea for toleration , from the innocence , and modesty of their opinions and practises . 56 sect . x. the non-conformists demand a toleration , which is neither intelligible in the whole , nor practicable so far as it may be understood . 78 sect . xi . the non-conformists demand a toleration , for no body knows whom , or what . 84 sect . xii . the conjunct importunity of the non-conformists for a toleration , is not grounded upon matter of conscience . 87 sect . xiii . the conjunct importunity of the non-conformists for a toleration , is a manifest confederacy . 96 sect . xiv . the non-conformists joynt-pretenses for a toleration , overthrown , by the evidence of their joynt-arguments , professions , and practises against it . 114 sect . xv. the non-conformists joynt complaints of hard measure , and persecution , confronted with their own joynt-proceedings . 120 sect . xvi . the non-conformists tell us , that liberty of conscience is the common interest of this kingdom ; but reason and experience tell us the contrary . 128 sect . xvii . this kingdom has been still the worse for indulging the non-conformists , and the party never the better . which evinces , that uniformity is the true interest of this government , and not toleration . 148 sect . xviii . the party of scrupulous , and conscientious non-conformists , is neither numerous , nor dangerous . pag. 167 sect . xix . the non-conformists appeal , from the government , and discipline of the church of england , to the judgment , and practise of the reformed churches beyond the seas ; examined , and submitted to censure . 172 sect . xx. the non-confotmists exceptions to our publique way of worship , found guilty of great impiety , and error . 194 sect . xxi . whatsoever god hath left indifferent , is the subject of humane power . 217 sect . xxii . no end of controversie , without a final and unaccomptable judge , from whose sentence there shall be no appeal . 226 sect . xxiii . the three great judges of mankind , are god , magistrates , and conscience . 238 sect . xxiv . the church of england charges the non-conformists with schism , and the non-conformists charge those of the church with scandal . the matter is taken into debate . page 256 toleration discuss'd , betwixt a presbyterian , and an independent . sect . xxv . an enquiry , upon a short , and impartial survey of the rise , progress , and issue of the war , raised by the two houses in 1641. whether were more criminal , the presbyterians , or the independents . 271 sect . xxvi . what party soever demands a toleration , and yet mainteins , that it is destructive both of church , and state , to grant one , is an enemy to both . 292 sect . xxvii . in case of a toleration , or indulgence to be granted , whether has the fairer preten se to it ; the classical way of the presbyterians , or the congregational way of the independents ; in respect of their form of government ? page 298 sect . xxviii . whether may be better tolerated in this kingdom , the presbyterians , or the independents ; in respect of their principles , and ordinary proceedings ? debated , first , with relation to his majesties person , and authority . 306 sect . xxix . the question of toleration , betwixt presbytery , and independency ; debated , with regard to the foundation , and execution of the law . 318 sect . xxx . the question of toleration , betwixt presbytery , and independency , debated , with a regard to the rights , liberties , and advantages of the people . 327 toleration discuss'd , by way of dialogue betwixt a conformist , and a non-conformist . conformist . liberty of conscience , or , no liberty of conscience , is the question . what is conscience ? non-conformist . conscience is a iudicium hominis de semetipso , prout subjicitur iudicio dei. b the judgment that a man makes of himself and his actions , with reference to the future judgment of god. or otherwise , c it is an ability in the understanding of man , by a reflex act to judge of himself in all he does , as to his acceptance , or rejection with god. rutherford makes it to be d a power of the practical understanding , according to which the man is obliged and directed to give judgment of himself ; that is , of his state and condition , and of all his actions , inclinations , thoughts , and words . c. if this be conscience , then liberty of conscience is a liberty of a man's iudging of himself , and his actions , with reference to the future iudgment of god. n. c. right : but then he is bound likewise to practise according to that judgment , and to worship god according to the light and understanding which he hath , of what is that worship which is acceptable with him , in matter and manner , and not otherwise . c. so that your liberty of conscience is now come to liberty of practise . indeed i could wish that the advocates for liberty would be a little more candid in this business . they take wonderful pains ( many of them ) to prove , that conscience cannot be forc'd ; it is out of the reach of humane power ; god never appointed any iudge of it ; shall any man pretend to make me believe , that which i cannot believe ? ( and the like ) pressing the argument , as if that were the very pinch of the case , which is just nothing at all to the point in controversie . it is obvious to common reason , that this suggestion cannot but create very dangerous and unquiet thoughts in the people : for if they be denied liberty of conscience ( in the plain and honest english of it ) they suffer under the most barbarous , and ridiculous persecution , that ever yet appear'd upon the face of the earth . but on the other side , if their claim be stretch't to liberty of practise , it seems not only unreasonable , but utterly inconsistent , both with christianity it self , and the publique peace . section i. universal toleration too wide , and unlawful . c. liberty of conscience ( as you have stated it ) is an universal toleration for people to say and do what they please , under the warrant and pretext of conscience . n. c. that is to say , in matters properly the subject of conscience , with reference to the future judgment of god. c. by this rule , pagans are to be tolerated as well as christians : for they have consciences as well as we : they are convinc'd , that there is a god ; and that that god ought to be worship't ; and may plead for the same freedom , in the way and manner of their proceeding . n. c. but paganism is not within the pale of the question . c. why then , no more is conscience . if you say , they are in the wrong , and so debar them the exercise of their opinion , because of the error of it , your exception lies to the error , n●…t to the conscience ; and may be turn'd upon your selves : for they say as much of you ; and have as much right to condemn you , as you them : neither have you any more right to be judges in your own case , then they in theirs . n. c. well , but we have a law to iudge our selves by . c. and so have they too : for , they without a law , do by nature the things contained in the law , and are a law unto themselves . n. c. but how can that law-have any regard to the future judgment of god , when they deny the immortality of the soul : c. there is a future iudgment of god in this life , as well as in the next : and the conscience that hath no light at all of another world , is not yet without apprehensions of divine vengeance in this. raro antecedentem scelestum deseruit pede poena claudo . you 'l be as much to seek now , if you restrain your argument to christianity ; for you must either prove , that there are no erroneous consciences among christinas ; or , that error of conscience is no sin ; or else , that sin may be tolerated . n. c. there is no doubt but there are erroneous consciences ; and it is as clear that sin is not to be tolerated : but i do not take every error of conscience to be a sin ( understand me of consciences labouring under an invincible ignorance . ) c. it is very true , that as to the formality of sin , which is the obliquity of the will , an error of conscience under an invincible ignorance is no sin : but sin materially considered , is the transgression of the divine law ; and conscience it self becomes sinful , when it dictates against that law. n. c. can there be any sin without assent ; or any assent without knowledge ; or any knowledge in a case of invincible ignorance ? the transgression of the law implies the knowledg of it , or at least the possibility of knowing it ; without which , it has not the nature of a law , as to me . [ the conditions requisite to a rule are these : it must be certain ; and it must be known . if it be not certain , it is no rule ; if it be not known , it is no rule to us. ] i had not known sin , but by the law ( says the text ) and in another place , where there is no law , there is no transgression . from whence the deduction is clear , that sin is not barely the transgression of a law , but the transgression of a known law ; the inconformity of the will to the understanding . c. the perversness of the will being a sin , does not hinder the enormity of the iudgment to be so too . [ until the law , sin was in the world ; but sin is not imputed , when there is no law. ] in few words , the word of god is the rule of truth , and all disproportion to that rule is error : god's revealed will is the measure of righteousness ; and all disproportion to that measure is sin. now the question is not , whether imputed , or no ; but , whether a sin , or no : and you cannot make error of conscience to be no sin , without making the word of god to be no rule . n. c. i do not deny , but it is a sin as to the law ; but it is none as to the person ; it is none constructively , with him that accepts the will for the deed. c. can you imagine that any condition in the delinquent can operate upon the force and equity of the law ? because god spares the offender , shall man therefore tolerate the offence ? david was pronounced a man after god's own heart ; shall authority therefore grant a license to murder and adultery ? n. c. what is david's case to ours ? you instance in sins of presumpt●…on , and the question is touching sins of ignorance . c. i was a blasphemer , a persecutor , and injurious ( says st. paul ) but i obtain'd mercy ( he does not say approbation ) because i did it in ignorance and unbeleif . again , the magistrate has a conscience , as well as the subject . it may be ignorance in him that commits the sin , and yet presumption in him that suffers it . briefly , in pleading for all opinions , you plead for all heresies , and for the establishment of wickedness by a law. what swarms of anabaptists , brownists , familists , antinomians , anti-scripturists , anti-trinitarians , enthusiasts ( and what not ? ) have started up even in our days , under the protection of liberty of conscience ? what blasphemous and desperate opinions , to the subversion both of faith and government ! where 's the authority of the scriptures , and the reverence of religion , when every man shall make a bible of his conscience , divide the holy ghost against it self , and dash one text upon another ? he that has a mind to rake further in this puddle , let him read edwards his gangraena , bayly's disswasive , paget's haeresiography , &c. to pass now from opinions , to practices . the liberty you challenge , opens a door to all sorts of villany and outrage imaginable ; to rapine , murder , rebellion , king-killing . n. c. as if any man that has a conscience of his own , or knows what conscience is , could give entertainment to so fond an imagination , as to suppose , that god at the last day will approve of murders , seditions , and the like evils : since what is evil in it self , and against the light of nature , there is no direction unto it , no approbation of it from conscience in the least . c. but what will this amount to ? when , first , every man's word shall be taken for his own conscience : and secondly , that conscience pleaded in defence of his actions . that which you stile murther , and sedition , he 'll tell you is only a gospel-reformation , the destroying of the hittites and the amorites , &c. so that you are never the better for tying a man up to the light of nature in his actions , if you leave him at liberty in his creed : for there is not that impiety in the world , but he 'll give you a text for it . the adversaries of god , that refuse to enter into a holy covenant with the lord , and submit themselves to christ's scepter , may be sequestred and plundered , without the imputation of rapine ; for it is written , the meek shall inherit the earth : and it is no more then god's people the israelites did to the egyptians . nay , if they be refractary , they may be put to death too , without murder , [ those mine enemies , which would not that i should reign over them , bring hither , and slay them before me . ] if any man has a spight at the church , it is but calling it antichristian , and mr. case shall give him a commission to take this agag , and hew it in pieces before the lord. taking up arms against the government , is helping the lord against the mighty . and king-killing it self , is justified by the example of ehud to eglon. n. c. but do you believe any man so mad , as to take these extravagances for impulses of conscience ? c. or rather , is not he madder that doubts it ? considering the evidences we have both from story and experience , and the very authority of scripture it self , in favour of believing it . does not our saviour foretell us of false christs , and false prophets , that shall arise and deceive many ; yea , if it were possible , the very elect ? parties are engag'd in all sorts of abomination , under the masque of conscience . those of the league in flanders , 1503. under maximilian , bound themselves by oath , to cast off the yoke of government , and to kill and slay all opposers ; but with such regard to religion ( i warrant ye ) that every member of that confederacy was to say five ave maryes and pater nosters daily , for a blessing upon the undertaking . the holy league at peronne , under henry the third of france , was for the glory of god too , and the preservation of the king : what horrible effects it produced , i need not tell you . sleydan reckons upon fifty thousand slain in one summer , in the boores rebellion in germany , 1525. and charges the tumult upon seditious preachers , whereof muncer was chief . i shall not need to mind you of the damned villanies that were acted by muncer , phifer , ( beold , or ) iohn of leyden , rottman , knipperdolling , kippenbroke , iohn matthias , and the rest of that gang , under the imposture of inspiration , and conscience : their sacking and burning of towns , rapes , and massacres : and all this under the pretense of god's command , and the direction of his holy spirit . nay , so strongly was the deluded multitude possest with the doctrine and ways of their false prophets , that the muncerians , upon the charge of the landtzgrave of hesse , stood stone still , without striking a blow ; calling upon the holy ghost to their succour ( as muncer had promised them ) till they were all routed and cut off . was it not a holy father , and the prior of the convent ( one of the heads of the league ) that confirm'd clement in his purpose of murthering harry the third of france ? for his encouragement , they assur'd him , that if he out-liv'd the fact , he should be a cardinal ; if he dy'd , a saint . what was it again that originally disposed this monster to that cursed act ? stimolato dalle predicationi , che giournallmente sentiva fare contra henrico di valois , nominato il persecutore della fede , & il tyranno . seditious sermons against the king , as a persecutor of the faith , and a tyrant . see in the same author , the confession of iohn castle , concerning his attempt upon harry the great . he had been brought up in the jesuites school , and instructed , that it was not only lawful , but meritorious , to destroy harry of bourbon , that revolted heretique , and persecutor of the holy church . [ esaminato con le solite forme , confesso liberamente , &c. ] what was it that animated ravillac to his hellish practise upon that brave prince ? but ( by his own confession ) a discourse of mariana's , de rege , & regis institutione . it was a divine instinct too , that mov'd balthasar gerard to murther the prince of aurange . [ divino tantùm instinctu , id à se patratum constanter affirmabat , diu tortus . ] to conclude now with that fresh and execrable instance here at home , upon the person of the late king : it was the pulpit that started the quarrel ; the pulpit that enflam'd it ; the pulpit that christen'd it god's cause ; the pulpit that conjur'd the people into a covenant to defend it ; the pulpit that blasted the king , that pursu'd him , that prest the putting of him to death ; and the pulpit that applauded it when it was done . and how was all this effected ? ( i beseech ye ) but by imposing upon the weak and inconsiderate multitude , errors for truths ; by perverting of scriptures ; and by these arts , moulding the passions and the consciences of the people to the interest of a tumultuary design . these are the fruits of the toleration you demand . reflect soberly upon what has been said ; and tell me , do you think such a toleration either fit for you to ask , or for authority to grant ? n. c. the truth is , in this latitude there may be great inconveniences : and yet methinks , 't is pitty ( in cases of some honest mistakes ) that a good man should be punished for not being a wise man. c. and were it not a greater pitty , do ye think , for a state to keep no check upon crafty knaves , for fear of disobliging some well-meaning fools ? as to the sparing of the man , i wish it could be done , even where it were impious to give quarter to the opinion : but how shall we separate the errour from the person , so as to make a general law take notice of it ? it were irreligious to tolerate both , and it seems to me impossible to sever them . if you your self now can either prove the former to be lawful ( that is , to do evil , that good may come of it ) or the latter to be practicable , i 'le agree with you for a general toleration : if not , i hope you 'l joyn with me against it . n. c. i am not for a toleration ( as i told you ) against the light of nature ; nor would i have any pretense of conscience admitted , that leads to the destruction of the magistrate , and the disturbance of the government . c. that is to say , you will content your self with a limited toleration : which , i fear , upon the debate , will prove as much too narrow for you , as the other was too wide . sect . ii. limited toleration too narrow , and disobliging to the excluded party . c. by a limited toleration we may understand a legal grant of freedom and immunity , in matters of religion , to persons of such and such perswasions , and to no others . n. c. or , if you please , an exemption from the lash of the act of uniformity . c. you say something , if this would do the work. but to dissolve a solemn law , for the satisfaction of some particulars , and at last leave the people worse then we found them , were certainly a gross oversight . however , what 's your quarrel to it ? n. c. i think it a great cruelty to confine a multitude of differing judgments to the same rule , and to punish a consciencious people for those disagreements , which they can neither avoid , nor relinquish . c. why will you practise that cruelty your selves then , which you condemn in others ? for limited toleration , is an act of uniformity to those that are excluded . they that are within the comprehension , will be well enough : but what will become of them that are left out ? who have consciences as well as their fellows , and as good a title to an indulgence , as those that are taken in . upon a fair view of the matter , you can neither admit all , without offence to your conscience ; nor leave out any , without a cheque to your argument . n. c. and yet i am perswaded a limited toleration would give abundant satisfaction . c. suppose you had it , and your self one of the rejected party : are not you as well now , without any toleration at all , as you would be then , without receiving any benefit by it ? n. c. to deal freely , i would not willingly be excluded . c. and is not that every man's case , as well as yours ? a limited toleration must exclude some , and why not you , as well as another ? or indeed , why should not all be tolerated , as well as any ? they can no more abandon their opinions , then you yours : and your ways are just the same grievances to them , which ( if you may be credited ) ours are to you. so that most undeniably , the plea of the nonconformists upon the point of conscience , is all alike : and since none of them have more right to an indulgence , one then another , why should any party of them expect more favour ; to the exclusion and disobligation of the rest ? n. c. but are not some opinions more tolerable then others ? do you put no difference betwixt truth and errour ? betwixt points fundamental and non-fundamental ? betwixt the very basis of christianity , and the superstructure ? in fine , betwixt such principles as affect order and publique agreement , and others that flow naturally into loosness and confusion ? c. without dispute , some opinions and principles are more allowable then others : but where lieth the right of allowing , or rejrcting ? let this be first examined , and then we 'l advise upon the opinions , and principles themselves , what may be allow'd , and what not. sect . iii. no toleration to be admitted but with the allowance of the chief magistrate . c. we are agreed , first , that an universal toleration ( implying a license to all sorts of wickedness ) is not upon any terms to be admitted . secondly , that a limited toleration ( being a grant of favour to some , and exclusive of others ) must needs lay a disobligation upon the excluded party . the next point will be , where to place the power of permitting , or refusing ; and from thence we shall pass to an inquiry into the bounds and limits of such a toleration as may be warrantable : which being once settled , we are to see how far the pretenses and qualifications of the parties concern'd will suit with those measures . n. c. grant us but an indulgence to dissenters of sound faith , and good life ; we ask no more . let nothing be imposed upon us that is grievous to our consciences on the one hand , and we shall never desire a toleration of any thing that is justly offensive to church or state on the other . c. but what if the dissenters shall call that sound doctrine , which the church defines heresie ? what if the subject shall account that imposition grievous , which the magistrate thinks n●…cessary ? or , that liberty consciencious , which the governour esteems unlawful ? who shall over-rule ? if the subject , it follows then , that the magistrate is obliged to toler●…te whatsoever the subject shall judge himself obliged to do : and this carries us back into a general toleration . if the magistrate over-rule , your plea of conscience is out of doors : and it is at his choice , what sorts of dissenters to indulge ; and , whether any , or none , at his pleasure . n. c. the world , you know , is as much divided about the power of the civil magistrate in matters of religion , as about any other part ( perchance ) of our debate . c. we shall discourse that more at large elsewhere . but however , as to this particular , let us come to a present settlement , that we may clear our way as we go . if you make the people judges of what is fit to be tolerated , first , ( as i said before ) you are upon the old rock of universal toleration ; for ( right or wrong ) every man will stick to the freedom of his own way . secondly , you lay the foundation of a quarrel never to be reconciled . you shall have as many factions , as men ; as many religions , as fancies ; and every dissenter shall be both a party , and a iudge . to imagine an agreement betwixt the magistrate and the multitude , by the common consent of both ; were to suppose an accommodation betwixt heaven and hell , betwixt light and darkness ; which are every jot as capable of it , as several of the differences now before us . and for an umpire in the case , you can pretend to none . n. c. pardon me : we have the word of god to repair to , in what concerns sound faith ; and the light of nature for our guide , in the duties of good life . c. this is to ●…e that which was the ground of the first controversie , the umpire of the second . for what is the original of all our grand disagreements , but ( as st. augustine has it ) ●…onae scripturae male-intellectae ; good scriptures ill understood ? and we are never the nearer an accord for the reading of them , without another moderator to set us right in the meaning of them. neither is the light of nature any more exempt from false glosses and misconstructions , then the bible . upon the whole matter , you see the absurdities and inconveniences that follow upon placing the judgment and direction of ordering these matters of difference , any where else then in the magistrate : whose duty and interest it is , both as a christian and as a ruler , to put an end to these impious contentions , by such rules and establishments as may secure the foundations both of religion and government . n c. this would do well , if men were agreed upon those rules : but several men , we see , have uarious apprehensions of the self same thing ; and that which one man takes for a rule , another counts an error . c. you are at your ●…niversal toleration again : but pray mark the consequences of this way of reasoning : be●…ause the multitude cannot agree upon a rule , there shall be none at all . pursue this argument , and there shall be no lair , no religion , no scripture , no truth , left in the world. because men differ , which is the true religion . they disagree about the doctrine of the bible . that which is truth to one man , is heresie to another . and never was there any law that pleased all people . authority says , worship thus , or so : the libertine cries , no , 't is a confinement of the spirit ; an invention of man ; a making of that necessary which god left free ; a scandal to tender consciences , &c. and here is authority concluded as to the manner of worship . so for the time. how do they know when christ was born , crucified , or raised from the dead . the churches fasting-days they make their iubile's . videas hodie quosdam ( says calvin ) quibus sua libertas non videtur consistere , nisi per esum carnium die veneris in ejus possessionem venerint . we have many now adays , that would look upon their liberty as good as forfeited , if they should not maintain their title to it , by eating flesh on fasting-days . 't is the same thing as to the place . command them to church , they will tell you , there is no inherent holiness in the walls : the hearts of the saints are the temples of the lord : is not god to be found in a parlour , as well as in a steeple-house ? finally , what have they to say for all this , but that this is one man's judgment , that another's ? this or that may be indifferent to you , but not to me . to conclude , what one man urges , all may ; and in all cases , as well as in any : which has brought us once again to an indeterminable liberty ; the last resort of all the champions of your cause , if they be followed home . now if you can assign any other arbitrator of this matter then the civil power , do it : if you cannot , let us proceed . n. c. go forward then . sect . iv. th●… bounds of toleration . and the error of making fundamentals and non-fundamentals to be the measure of it . c. in the question of toleration ( says a learned prelate ) the foundation of faith , good life , and government is to be secured : wherein is comprised a provision and care , that we may live as christians toward god , as members of a community toward one another , and as loyal subjects toward our sovereign . if you 'l take this for the standard of your toleration , we have no more to do , but to apply matters in controversie to the rules of christianity , good manners , and government ; and to entertein or reject all pretensions , thereafter as we find them agreeable , or repugnant , to religion , morality , and society . n. c. uery well stated truly , i think . c. all the danger is , the falling to pieces again , when we come to bring this and that to the test. for if we differ at last upon the application of particular points , and actions , to the general heads of faith , and government already laid down and agreed upon , we shall yet lose our selves in uncertainty , and confusion . n. c. there will be no fear of that , if we tye up our selves to fundamentals . c. what do you mean by fundamentals ? n. c. there are fundamentals of faith , that bind us as we are christians ; and there are fundamentals of practice , that oblige us as we are members of a community . from these fundamentals there lies no appeal to conscience . in other matters ( which we look upon as non-fundamental ) we think it reasonable to desire a toleration . c. this distinction has a fair appearance ; but there is no trusting to it . first , it proposes a thing neither practicable , nor reasonable ; which is , the uniting of all people under one common bond of fundamentals . what possibility is there of attaining such an agreement , among so many insuperable diversities of judgment , as reign in mankind ? insomuch , that what is a fundamental truth to one , is a fundamental error to another ; and every man is ready to abide the faggot for his own opinion . it is also very unreasonable to exact it . god almighty does not require the same fundamentals from all men alike ; but much from him to whom much is given , and little from him , to whom little : and from all , according to their differing degrees , and measures , of grace , and knowledg . you will likewise find your self under great uncertainty about the stating of your fundamentals : for divers circumstances , of little , or no value in themselves , become fundamental in respect of their consequences . as for instance ; that christ died for sinners , i presume shall be one article of your faith : but whether upon mount calvary , or some other part of the neighbourhood , seems of no great moment , as to the main of our salvation . and yet he that denies , that our saviour suffer'd upon mount calvary , puts as great an affront upon the veracity of the holy ghost in the gospel , as he which denies that he suffer'd upon the cross. n. c. i give it for granted , that from some , more is required ; from others , less : in proportion to their differing gifts and graces . but then there are some principles , so essential to christianity , and so clear in themselves , as to admit of no dispute . c. saving that grand foundation of our faith , that iesus christ is come in the flesh ; and that whosoever confesses , that iesus christ is the son of god , god dwelleth in him , and he in god. ( saving ( i say ) that radical principle , which if we disbelieve , we are no longer christians ) there is scarce one point that has not been subjected to a controversie . if you reduce your fundamentals to this scantling , your creed will lie in a very narrow compass : but your toleration will be large enough , if you are at liberty for the rest . touching the clearness of them , i do not comprehend it : for supernatural truths hold no proportion at all with the ordinary motions of humane reason . if they be so clear , tell us , what they are ; where we shall look for them ; and how we shall know them when we have found them . n c. where should we look for the foundation of our faith , but in the new-testament of jesus christ ? c. but still we do not all read the bible with the same spectacles . to draw to an issue ; generals conclude nothing , so long as we are left at freedom to wrangle about particulars ; and you will find much surer footing upon the foundations of establish'd law , then upon the whimseys of popular speculation . to my thinking , the doctrine and discipline of the church of england , as it is settled by acts of parliament , with other legal constitutions , for the peace , and order of the government , are every whit as competent a provision for the good of the publique , as your new fundamentals . n. c. the point is not ( as you seem to understand it ) a competition between our fundamentals of notion , and yours of law : but an inquiry concerning the limits of a iustistable toleration . c. very good : and you refer us to your distinction of fundamentals and non-fundamentals , as to a rule , how far we are at liberty , and wherein we are bounded . but this will not do the work ; and i have spent the more words about it , because i find this distinction the ordinary retreat of your party . the truth of it is , there 's not one of a hundred of you , but takes this question by the wrong handle . you make it a question of conscience , and religion , what may be tolerated , and what not : whereas the thing falls properly under a consideration of state. in matters not to be tolerated ( as in articles of religion ) the magistrate is positively bound up ; in other cases , he may chuse , whether he will tolerate , or restrain ; that is to say , with a perpetual regard to the q●…iet , and security of the publique . where particulars may be relieved , without inconvenience to communities , it is well : but otherwise , private consciences weigh little in the scale against political societies : and toleration is only so far allowable , as it complies with the necessities , and ends of government . n. c. that is to say ( according to your first resolution ) the foundation of faith , good life , and government is to be secured : whe●…ein i am content to close with you ; though there are some , that believe the right of toleration may be defended without any restrictions . c. for discourse sake , pray try , what you can make on 't , either with , or without . sect . v. the common arguments for toleration , examined . n. c. no man under the gospel ought to be compell'd to believe anything ; and if not to believe , then not to practise . c. rutherford says well to this point : that the magistrate is not to force men positively to external worship ; but negatively , to punish acts of false worship , and omissions of external performances of worship , as of ill example to others : not commanding outward performances , as service to god ; but forbidding omissions of them , as destructive to m●…n . n. c. it is a strange absurdity to force men , against their own light , to be guided by others , unless we are sure , we cannot mistake . c. but were it not a stranger absurdity , to leave every man at liberty to set up a new light of his own ; and then to subject the united light of the nation ( which is the law ) to the scatter'd lights of private persons ? n. c. but does not one man see that sometimes , which a thousand may miss ? c. and because this is possible , is the odds therefore upon one against a thousand ? or if so , why may not the church be in the right against the people , as well as any particular of the people , against the church , and the rest ? this is most certain , that of a thousand differing opinions , there can be but one right : and a toleration upon your supposal , is sure to set up nine hundred ninety nine errors : which is the ready way to bring people to cutting of throats for opinions . n. c. if a magistrate may punish all that his conscience says are in the wrong , then all persecutors are in the right . c. men are not punish't for their consciences , but for their actions : and if a magistrate may not restrain liberty of action , then all rebellions are in the right . n. c. the magistrate is appointed to see that executed which christ hath appointed in religion ; and punctually ty'd up , neither to add , nor to diminish , either in the matter , or in the manner . the manner christ hath appointed , being as positively obliging as the matter . c. if it be the magistrate's duty to see christ's appointments in religion executed , in matter , and manner , without adding , or diminishing : first , you must allow him to be a competent judge of what christ hath appointed ; ( for otherwise his commission directs him to do he knows no : what. ) secondly , according to your argument , there is but one way of worship , warrantable ; which puts a bar unto any sort of toleration whatsoever . n. c. if the magistrate has any power over the consciences of his people , how came he by it ? for he that hath no other , then the light of nature , hath as much power , as if he were christian ; and by becoming christian hath no addition of power to what he had before . c. it is true , that christianity ( as you put the case ) does not confer upon the magistrate any new power ; but it lays upon him an additional obligation of duty . while his conscience was pagan , he took his measures only from humane prudence , and the light of nature . but upon his conversion , he falls under the dictate of a conscience that is further , and otherwise enlighten'd : and b●…comes answerable , as well for the establishing , securing , and promoting of christianity , as for the political conservation of his people , and government . n. c. persecution may make hypocrites , but not converts . c. you may say the same thing of the law , in other cases . that makes many men honest in appearance , for fear of punishment ; that are yet rotten at heart . nay , i am further perswaded , that where severity makes one hypocrite , it cures a hundred . for so long as there is either profit , or credit to be got , by th●… disguise of religion , all men of corrupt principles , and designs will flow into the party . but when that temptation to hypocrisie shall be removed ; and that they find nothing to be gotten by the imposture , but punishment , and disgrace , they will soon betake themselves to a more regular station in the government . many a counterfeit cripple has been cured with a dog-whip . n. c. are heresies to be extirpated , and truth to be propagated by the sword , or by the word ? c. if it be the penalty you oppose ; where the word will not do , you your selves fly to censures , and excommunications , which are punishments , as well as corporal , and pecuniary inflictions ; and as little instructive . but you are upon a mistake : the civil power does not so much pretend to the recovery of those that are out of the way , as to the saving of the rest : nor does it properly punish any man , as an heretic , but as a seducer . do you but let the king's subjects alone , and he 'l never trouble himself to impose upon your consciences . if it reaches not wickedness in the heart , it provides yet against the infection of it , and the scandal ; by keeping the hands , and tongues of licentious people in order . n. c. i do not deny , but that a rigorous law may have some profitable influence upon the looser sort : yet still it falls heavy upon the innocent , as well as upon the guilty . to know , believe , or profess are not in our power : and shall a man be punish't for want of grace , or understanding ? c. though it is not in our power to know , and believe , as we please ; yet to forbear publishing of our thoughts , and acting in relation to them , is unquestionably in our power . neither is any man to be punish't for want of grace , or understanding : but yet it will be ill , if those defects may pass for an excuse . all manner of impiety should then go scot-free : for without doubt , let fools be priviledged , and all knaves shall pretend ignorance . n. c. no man can call iesus the christ , but by the holy ghost : will you punish any man for not having the holy ghost ? c. no man that hath the holy ghost , will deny iesus to be the christ : will you punish any man for denying iesus to be christ ; that is to say , for not having the holy ghost ? n. c. he that acts against his conscience , sins . c. and so does he that acts by it , if in error . n. c. every man is true to god , that is true to his conscience , though it be erroneous . c. will it not then follow , that a man may worship the sun , or the moon , and yet be true to god , if that worship be according to his conscience ? to clear this point ; some consciences are erroneous upon the score of invincible ignorance ; and that insuperable frailty is a fair excuse : but some consciences again are erroneous for want of due care , search , and enquiry ; others , out of pertinacy : and there is no plea to be admitted for these consciences . n. c. how do you know , but you may persecute god , in the conscience of a true believer , as st. paul did , before his conversion ? c. if i may turn your own reason against your self , i may do it , and yet be true to god ; if in so doing , i am true to my conscience . but still you confound conscience , and practise ; whereas the civil magistrate pretends to no sort of authority , or dominion over the conscience . and your objection is of as little force any other way : for the magistrate is no more infallible in one case , then in another ; and may as well dread the persecuting of god , in the conscience of a murderer , or any other criminal , as in that of an heretick . n. c. i think we have enough : but it may be , this toleration will please us better in the exercise , then it does in the speculation . c. what hinders then , but we may try it that way too ? sect . vi. toleration undermines the law , and causes confusion both in church and state. n. c. why may not a toleration do as well here , as in france ? c. how do you mean ? would you have his majesty of great-britain , tolerate roman-catholicks here , as his most christian majesty does protestants in france ? n. c. you speak as if none were to be tolerated but papists . c. not i truly : but so it must be , if you 'l have your toleration after the french fashion . can you shew me that any non-conforming roman catholicks are tolerated there ? nay ; or that those of the religion do subdivide , or break communion among themselves ? such an instance might stand you in some stead . n. c. but is it not more , to tolerate a forreign r●…ligion , then to indulge your own ? to permit freedom of worship to those you repute hereticks , then to relate a little towards your orthodox friends ? c. the question is not , in matter of religion , whether to favour sound faith , or heresie ; but in reason of state , whether is more advisable , to tolerate the exercise of quite a different religion ; or a separation from the church-order establish't . alas ! in several religions ( and especially where the professors are divided by mutual prejudice , and principles of strong opposition , ( as in this case too much they are ) there 's no great fear of gathering , and engaging parties , to the disturbance of the publick peace . there is a great gulf ( as he says ) betwixt them . and men do not usually start from one extreme to another , at a leap ; but to tolerate one church within another , is to authorize a dissolution of the government both ecclesiastical , and civil . and the defection is the more dangerous , because it is almost insensible . as many as will leave you , may ; and every dissenter is double : one lost , to the government ; another gain'd , to the schism : which will quickly bring down authority to the mercy of the people . in fine , by toleration , a kingdom is divided against ie self , and c●…nnot stand . n. c. when you have taken breath , do me the favour to make out what you say . c. the demand of a toleration , is in it self , the condemnation of an establish't law ; and not without hard reflexions neither , both upon the equity , and prudence of the law makers . so that , at first dash , here is the law unhing'd : for if any one law may le question'd by the multitude , the consequence reaches to all the rest. n. c. we do not question , either the prudence of the law-makers ; or the general equity of the constitution . only where god hath not given us consciences suitable to the rule , we humbly desire such a rule , as may comply with our consciences . c. would you have a law that shall comply with all consciences ? god almighty himself never made a law that pleased all people . n. c. it would be well then , that you should bring all men to the same mind , before you force them to the same rule . c. but it would be ill , if there should be no rule at all , till we had found out one that all people should say amen to . n. c. we do not ask the vacating of a law , but the widening of it . c. why then you ask a worse thing ; for it were much better for the publique , totally to vacate a good law , then to suffer a contempt , even upon a bad one. if the reason of such or such a law be gone , repeal the law. but to let the obligation fall , and the law stand , seems to be a soloecism in government . you should consider , that laws are not made for particulars ; but framed with a regard to the community : and they ought to stand firm , and inexorable . if once they come to hearken to popular expostulations , and to side with by-interests , the reverence of government is shaken . n. c. but where 's the danger of receding from that inexorable strictness ? c. here it lies . it implies an assent , both to the equity of the complaint , and to the reason of the opinion in question : ( if not also a submission to importunity , and clamor . ) and among many ill consequences , it draws this after it , for one. if any one sort of people may be allow'd to challenge any one law ; all other sorts have an equal right of complaining against all , or any of the rest. so that a toleration , thus extorted , does not only unsettle the law ; but ministers argument to the pretense of popular reformation . to say nothing of the credit it gives to the disobedient , and discouragement to those that keep their stations : beside what may be reflected upon the magistrate , for instability of counsels . another exception may be this : how shall we distinguish betwixt faction , and conscience ? if it prove to be the former , a toleration does the business to their hand . nay , suppose it the latter ; and that , hitherto , there is nothing but pure conscience in the case ; what security have we , that it shall not yet embroil us in mutiny , and sedition ? will not the tolerated party become a sanctuary for all the turbulent spirits in the nation ? shall they not have their meetings , and consultations , without controul ? and when they shall see the law prostituted to the lusts of the multitude ; the order of the government dissolved ; and the government it self left naked , and supportless ; what can we expect shall be the end of these things , but misery , and confusion ? nor is it all , that a toleration is of manifest hazard to us : but it is that too , without any sort of benefit in return . shall we be the quieter for it ? no. one grant shall become a president for another ; and so shall one importunity for another , till we are brought in the end , either to a general license ; or to a general tumult . ( no matter which ) the rejected party will be sure to mind you , that they are as good subjects , and have as good claims as others , that are tolerated ; upon which disobliging score , there falls an odium , and envy upon the government . i think a man shall not need the spirit of prophesie , to foretel these events . for a toleration does naturally evirtuate the law , and lead to a total dissolution of ecclesiastical order ; and consequently , to a confusion , both in church , and state. n. c. i do not find my self much press'd by any thing now offer'd : if a toleration unhinges the law , 't is but making the law a little wider , and then that block is removed . and so is the fear likewise of bringing present importunities into president : for all tolerable liberties may be comprehended within that latitude . and as to the matter of imposing faction for conscience , such a probiston secures you , as well , as the act for uniformity . c. i have spoken as much as needs to this point : if you think you have any right to a toleration , make it out ; and approve your selves for a generation of people , to whom , the king may with honour , and safety , extend a bounty . sect . vii . the non-conformist's plea for toleration , upon reason of state . c. the ordinary motives to indulgence , are these three . 1. reason of state. 2. the merits of the party . 3. the innocence , and modesty of their practises , and opinions . what have you to say now for a toleration upon reason of state ? n. c. the non-conformists are the king's subjects ; and what 's a king without his people ? c. by birth , and obligation , they are the king's subjects ; but if they be not so in practise , and obedience , they have no longer any title to the benefit of his protection ; and such subjects are the worst of enemies . n. c. you will not deny them however to be a numerous party ; and a people of conduct , and unity : which puts the government under some kind of prudential necessity , to oblige so considerable an interest . c. if they be consequently dangerous , because they are numerous ; the greater the number is , the greater is the hazard : and therefore because they are many already , and will encrease if they be suffer'd , they are not to be tolerated . n. c. but men will be much more peaceable when they are indulged , then when they are persecuted . c. now i am perswaded , that the multitude will be much quieter without a power to do mischief , then with it . but what is your opinion of the honesty of the party ? n. c. i do seriously believe the non-conformists to be an honest , consciencious sort of people . c. but they must be knaves , to make good your argument : for if they be honest , they 'l be quiet without a toleration : if they be dishonest , they 'l be dangerous with it . consider again ; if there be any hazard , it lies not in the number , but in the confederacy . a million of men without agreement , are but as one single person . now they must consult , before they can agree ; and they must meet , before they can consult . so that barely to hinder the assembling of these multitudes , frustrates the danger of them. whereas , on the other side , to tolerate separate meetings , is to countenance a combination . n. c. mistake me not ; i do not say , 't is likely they will be troublesome , in respect of their temper , and iudgments ; but that they are considerable enough to be so , in regard of their quality and number . c. whether do you take to be the greater number ; those that singly wish to be discharg'd from the act of uniformety ; or those that would have no law at all ? those that are troubled because they may not worship according to their fancy : or those that are displeased because they cannot live , and rule according to their appetite ? the truytor would have one law discharg'd : the schismatick , another : the idolater , a third : the sacrilegious person , a fourth : the profane swearer , a fifth : the false swearer , a sixth : the murderer , a seventh : the seducer , an eighth : and in sine ; not one of a thousand , but had rather command , then obey . shall the king therefore dissolve the law , because there are so many criminals ? that were to raise an argument against authority , from the very reason of its constitution . shall the people be left to do what they list , because a world of them have a mind to do what they should not ? shall his majesty give up his government , for fear of some millions ( perchance ) in his dominions , that had rather be kings , then subjects ? less forcible , beyond question , is the necessity of the king 's granting a toleration , ( if you reckon upon numbers ) then that of renouncing his sovereignty . for doubtless , where there is one man that is truly scrupulous , there are hundreds of avaricious , ambitious , and otherwise irreligious persons . n. c. tell me , i beseech you ; do not you believe that there are more n●…n-conformists now , then there were at the beginning of the late war ? c. yes , i do verily believe , three to one. n. c. why then 't is at least three to one against you : for at that time , the third part of this number was the predominant interest of the nation . c. that does not follow ; for you may remember , that at the beginning of the late war , the party were masters of the tower , the navy , of all considerable forts , towns , and magazins : they had a great part of the crown and church revenues under their command , and london at their beck : beside the plunder of malignants , and the bountiful contributions of the well-affected . scotland was already confederate with them in one rebellion ; and they had made sure of another in ireland ( by persecuting the earl of strafford , who was the only person capable of keeping them quiet . ) which they further assisted , by a gross opposition of his majesties proposals , and resolutions to suppress it . [ see the king's speech of decemb. 14. 1641. and the following petition concerning the same . ] finally , for the better countenance of their usurpations , the house of commons was drawn down into a close committee , and the votes of that iunto were impos'd upon the nation as the acts of a regular , and complete authority . this was their condition formerly ; but blessed be god , it is not so at present . the three kingdoms are now at peace ; and we have a parliament that is no friend to the faction . the king is possest of a considerable guard , which his royal father wanted . the militia is in safe hands . his majesty is likewise possest of his regal power , and revenue : and his capital city firm in its obedience : to all which may be added , that although divers particulars are as wealthy as pillage , and pardon , can make them ; yet they want a common stock to carry on a common cause . the thimbles , and the bedkins fail ; and the comfortable in-comes of a irish adventures ; b moneys and plate upon the propositions ; c confiscated estates ; d twentieth parts ; and e weekly assessments ; and a hundred other pecuniary stratagems are departed from them . if it be so , that these people have none of these advantages now remaining , by virtue whereof , they did so much mischief before ; what necessity of tolerating for fear of disobliging them ? n. c. however ; it is not for your credit , to say , these people want conduct , by whom your selves have been worsted . c. the men that worsted us , were a sort of people , that voted down bishops on the wrong side of the parliament-house door ; that cry'd , they would have no more porter's lodge at whitehall ; and told his sacred majesty in a publique declaration [ august 8. 42. ] that the pretence that his person was there in danger , was a suggestion as false as the father of lies could invent . — that seiz'd the tower , the navy , the king's towns , forts , magazins , friends , and revenues : that levy'd war against , and imprison'd his sacred person ; usurped his sovereign authority ; imbrued their hands in his royal blood ; and in the very pulpit , animated , and avowed the unexampled murder . if these be the people which you plead for , under the notion of non-conformists , never trouble your selves to go nine mile about , for a toleration : but come roundly up to the point , and desire his majesty to deliver up his crown . if it be otherwise , you have overshot your self in your challenge ; and it does not appear , that you are the numerous , politick , and united party we took you for . if the non-conformists were the principal conducters in that design , they are not honest enough to be trusted ; and i see no reason of state , to dispose the king to gratifie the murderers of his father . if they were not so , it was none of their conduct that did the work. n. c. if societies , and professions , shall be made answerable for the failings of particulars , all communities , and fellowships will be found blameable alike ; for there is no order , or way , without corrupt pretenders to 't : and it is not enough to say , there were non-conformists in the party unless you probe , that what those non-conformists did , was acted upon a principle , common to dissenters and that they did it , as non-conformists . ; ; c. this is a defence , instead of an answer ; as if i had now charg'd the combination upon the non-conformists , when i only ask , if they were the managers of it , or no ? this , you neither confess , nor deny ; and there let it rest : since the dilemma lies indifferently against you , whether they were , or not . ( as does already appear ) touching the unity you boast of , ( i must confess ) it is as eminent against your superiours , as your disagreements are among your selves . and take all together , i see nothing made out as yet , to prove , that the kingdom is likely to be either the better for granting a toleration , or the worse for refusing it . moreover , we are not unacquainted with your false musters . nine presbyteries , of fifty , made up one of your general assemblies . and upon the conference at hampton-court , in 1604. of above nine thousand ministers , there were but forty nine upon the r●…ll , that stood out , and were deposed : such a noise ( says spotswood ) will a few disturbers cause , in any society where they are tolerated . but what if a man should allow the non-conformists to be as valuable as you represent them ? it is but a kind of pagan argument , to urge the worshipping of them ( as the indians do the devil ) for fear they should hurt us . n. c. they that have a power to do hurt , have commonly a power to do good and no doubt of it , the non-conformists , under the obligation of an indulgence , would shew themselves as serviceable to the common good , as any sort of people whatsoever . ; c. what they will do , is uncertain ; what they have done , is upon record , in characters of blood. give me but one instance , even since the reformation , where england , or scotland was ever the better for them ( any otherwise , then by god's extraordinary working of good out of evil , and take the cause . n. c. i would it were put upon that issue . sect . viii . the non-conformists plea for toleration , from the merits of the party . c. what has your party merited from the publique , that an exception to a general rule should be granted in your favour ? n. c. many of us ventur'd all , to save the life of the late king. c. and yet ye ventur'd more to take it away : for ye did but talk for the one ; and ye fought for the other . n. c. we ever abominated the thought of murdering him . c. you should have abominated the money too , for which ye sold him. n. c. who sold him ? c. the presbyterians sold him ; and the independents were the purchasers . n. c. did not the presbyterians uote his majesties concessions a ground for a ●…reaty ? c. yes ; but it was upon conditions , worse then death it self . they deliver'd him up too , when they might have preserved him : and they stickled for him , when they knew they could do him no good. n. c. what end could they have in that ? c. the very same end in — 48 , which they had in — 41 : to make a party by it , and set up a presbyterian interest in the king's name . n. c. all the world knows , that we were so much afflicted for his sacred majesties distress , that we had many solemn days of humiliation for it . c. so ye had for his successes ( when time was ) for fear he should get the better of ye : and you had your days of thanksgiving too , for his disasters . n. c. pray'e let me ask you one question now : who brought in this king ? c. they that would not suffer you to keep him out : that party , which , by a restless , and incessant loyalty , hindred your establishment . n. c. and what do you think of the secluded members ? c. we 'l speak to that point in another place . but can you tell me what was the ground of the quarrel ? i suppose i need not tell you what was the event of it . n. c. religion , and liberty . c. of which side were the tender consciences ? for the king ; or against him ? n. c. we were ever for the king ; witness our petitions , declarations , and , in a most signal manner , our solemn league and covenant . c. now i thought you had been against him : because you took away his revenue , authority , and life : unless you mean that you were for him in your words , as you were against him in your actions . n. c. there were many of us , that lov'd the king as well as any of those about him. c. according to the covenant ( that is . ) and does not your party love this king , as well as they did the last ? i do not think but you love the bishops too . n. c. truly when they are out of their fooleries , i have no quarrel to the men. but what makes you couple the crown , and the mitre still ? as if no man could be a good subject , that is disaffected to prelacy . c. why truly , i think you can h●…rdly shew me any one non-conformist that ever struck stroke for the king ; or any true son of the episcopal order of the church , that ever bore arms against him. n. c. are not you your self satisfied , that even cromwel himself , and divers of his principal officers , when the late king was at hampton-court , had deliberations , and intentions to save him ? and that there were thousands in the army , that had no unkindness for his majesty ? c. i do absolutely believe , both the one , and the other ; and that the folly , and heedlesness of the common-souldier contributed , in a high measure , to the general fate : nay , that his late majesty was oppress'd , even by those , that thought they fought for him , before they understood what they did . but yet let me commend to your observation , that these relenting intervals in the heads of the army , did manifestly vary , according to the pulse of their affairs . which evinces , that it was a deliberation , upon the matter of convenience , rather then upon a point of conscience . but thus far however we are agreed ; that many of the non-conformists were engaged ; whether upon ignorance , interest , or faction , take your choice . that is to say , upon which of these three you will found the merits of your party . we are next to enquire , how far your principles , and actions , will comport with the duties of society , and the ends of government . sect . ix . the non-conformists plea for toleration , from the innocence , and modesty of their opinions and practises . c. in the question of government , and obedience , there are many points , wherein the non-conformists agree : many more , wherein they differ : and not a few , wherein they are altogether fluctuant , and uncertain . we have nothing to do ( in this place ) with their disagreements , or uncertainties ; save only in those matters wherein they are united by common consent : and to determine what those are , will be a new difficulty ; unless you tell us before-hand , what authorities we may depend upon . your principles must be known , or they cannot be examined . wherefore , pray'e direct us where we may find them . n. c. why truly in the history of the reformation ; for this controversie has been on foot from the very beginning of it , to this day . c. if you speak of the reformation beyond the seas , i do not find any thing there , that comes neer our purpose . here is , first , pretended , a reformation of a reformation ; secondly , a conjunction of several parties , and perswasions , at utter enmity one with another , in a confederacy against the order of the government : whereas in the great turn of affairs abroad , i see little more then a defection from the church of rome ; and people setling themselves in some other way , as well as they could . muncer's party in germany , had ( i confess ) some resemblance of the tumults here in england , that usher'd in the late war ; both for the medly , and for the rabble . in scotland indeed , there was a contest , for the reforming of a reformation ; and it went high . but it was only a struggle , for the geneva-discipline : which humour was brought over to us too , and driven on , for a while , under q elizabeth , with much contumacy , and bitterness . but our case ( in short ) was never known in the christian world , till the late troubles ; and thither it is , that we must resort for satisfaction to our present enquiry . now whether you 'l be tried by the declarations , votes , orders , and ordinances of that pretended parliament that carry'd on the quarrel ; or by the undeniable doctrines , and positions of your own divines ; ( and those the very idols of your party ) is left at your election . n. c. as for the parliament , let them answer for themselves : we had no hand in their proceedings . and for our ministers , they were but men , and may have their failings as well as other people . if you would know our principles ; we are for worshipping according to the light of our consciences , for obeying god rather then man ; and for yielding all due obedience to the civil magistrate . c. all this comes to nothing . for you may make that light what you please ; and qualifie that due obedience as you list . what does all this evasion , and obscurity signifie ; but that there is somewhat in the bottom , more then you are willing to own ? there are a sort of people , that tell us , the war raised in — 41 , in the name of king and parliament , was lawful . and that the soveraignty was lodg'd in the two houses , ( nay in the people ) in case of necessity . that kings are but the peoples trustees ; their power , fiduciary ; and the duty of subjects only conditional . that princes may be depos'd ; nay , and put to death , in case of tyranny : and that their persons may be resisted , but not their authority . that the king is singulis major , universis minor : and that the people may enter into covenant , for the reformation of religion , without the consent of the chief magistrate ; nay , against his authority ; and propagate religion by the sword. they make their appeals , from the literal construction of law , to the equitable ; from the law written , to the law of nature , and necessity . a man might ply you with fresh instances upon this subject , till to morrow morning ; but here we 'l stop : and pray'e speak your opinion now , of granting a toleration , to a party that professes , and teaches , these principles ; and acts accordingly . n. c. what is all this to the non-conformists ? who are already come to an agreement ; that , in the question of toleration , the foundation of faith , good life , and government , is to be secured . c. very good. so that what party soever shall be found guilty of the positions aforesaid , and of actions answerable thereunto , cannot reasonably pretend to a toleration , from the innocency of their opinions and practises . now to particulars . the positions of divers eminent non-conformists . i. the war raised by the two houses in the name of king and parliament , 1641. was lawful . [ i cannot see , that i was mistaken in the main cause , nor dare i repent of it , nor forbear the same , if it were to do again , in the same state of things . — and my iudgment tells me , that if i should do otherwise , i should be guilty of treason , or disloyalty , against the soveraign power of the land. pag. 486. a king , abusing his power , to the overthrow of religion , laws , and liberties , may be controuled , and opposed . this may serve to justifie the proceedings of this kingdom against the late king , who in a hostile way set himself to overthrow religion , parliaments , laws , and liberties . p. 10. the righteousness of the parliament's cause , is as clear , as the sun at noon-day . and , like the law of god it self , in these excellent qualifications of it ; that it is holy , just , and good. p. 6. ii. the lords , and commons are the supreme power ; nay the people , in case of necessity . parliaments may judge of publique necessity , without the king ; ( if deserted by the king ) and are to be accompted , by virtue of representation , as the whole body of the state. p. 45. whensoever a king , or other superior authority , creates an inferior ; they invest it with a legitimacy of magistratical power to punish themselves also , in case they prove evil-doers . p. 7. england is a mixt monarchy , and governed by the major part of the three estates assembled in parliament . p. 111. the houses are not only requisite to the acting of the power of making laws ; but co-ordinate with his majesty , in the very power of acting . p. 42. when as a part of the legislative power resides in the two houses ; as also a power to redress grievances , and to call into question all ministers of state , and justice , and all subjects , of whatsoever degree , in case of delinquency ; it may be thought , that a part of the supreme power doth reside in them , though they have not the honorary title : and this part of the supreme power , is indeed capable of doing wrong : yet how it might be guilty of rebellion , is more difficult to conceive . p. 49. the delegates of the people , in the house of commons , and the commissioners on the king's behalf , in the house of peers , concurring ; do very far bind the king , if not wholly . p. 112. and when these cannot agree , but break , one from another , the commons in parliament assembled , are ex officio , the keepers of the liberties of the nation , and righteous possessors , and defenders of it , against all usurpers , and usurpations whatsoever . p. 130. iii. kings are but the peoples trustees ; their power , fiduciary ; and the duty of subjects , conditional . [ the king , is but the servant of the people ; and his royalty is only a virtual emanation from them ; and in them , radically , as in the first subject . ] so rutherford , parker , goodwin , bridges , milton , &c. the people can give no other power , then such as god has given them : and god has never given a moral power to do evil. all fiduciary power , abused , may be repealed ; and parliamentary power is no other : which , if it be abused , the people may repeal it ; and resist them ; annulling their commissions ; rescinding their acts ; and denuding them of their fiduciary power : even as the king himself may be denuded of the same power by the three estates . p. 152. princes derive their power , and prerogative from the people ; and have their investitures , meerly for the peoples benefit . p. 1. it is the king's duty to pass all such laws , as both houses shall judge good for the kingdom : upon a supposition , that they are good , which by them are judg'd such . if the prince fail in his promise , the people are exempt frm their obedience ; the contract is made void , and the right of obligation is of no force . — it is therefore permitted to the officers of a kingdom , either all , or some good number of them , to suppress a tyrant . p. 120 , 121. iv. princes may be deposed , and put to death , in case of tyranny . every worthy man , in parliament , may , for the publique good , be thought a fit peer , and judge of the king. p. 24. where there is no opportunity for the interposure of other judges , the law of nature , and the law of nations allow every man to judge in his own gase . p. 34. if a prince wants such understanding , goodness , or power , as the people judge necessary to the ends of government ; in the first place ; he is capable of the name , but not of the government . in the second ; he deposes himself . in the third ; the want of power , deposes him . theses 135 , 136 , 137. it is lawful for any , who have the power , to call to accompt , a tyrant , or wicked king ; and after due conviction , to depose , and put him to death , if the ordinary magistrate have neglected , or deny'd to do it . it is not impossible , for a king , regis personam exuere ; in a natural , or moral madness or frenzy to turn tyrant , yea beast , waiving his royal place , violently , extrajudicially , extramagisterially to assault his subjects , as saul did david . in this case , men think nature doth dictate it ; and scripture doth justifie a man , se defendendo vim vi repellere . p. 23. the real soveraignty among us , was in king , lords , and commons ; and if the king raise war against such a parliament : the king may not only be resisted , but ceaseth to be a king. thesis 358. the lord rent the kingdom from saul , for sparing one agag ; and for want of thorough extirpation of all the accurs●…d things , he lost both thanks for what he had done , and kingdom also . p. 27. let no law hinder ye : if law be to be broken , it is for a crown ; and therefore , for religion . — ye are set over kingdoms , to root out , pull down , destroy , and throw down : do it quickly , do it thorougly . by what rule of conscience , or god , is a state bound to sacrifice religion , laws , and liberties , rather then endure , that the princes life should come into any possibilities of hazard , by defending them , against those that in his name are bent to su●…due them ? if he will needs thrust himself upon the hazard , when he needs not , whose fault is that ? there never was a greater harmony of the laws of nature , reason , prudence , and necessity , to warrant any act , then may be found , and discern'd in that act of justice on the late king. p. 18. touching the righteousness of the sentence past upon the king ; doubtless never was any person under heaven , sentenc'd with death , upon more equitable , and just grounds . p. 90. praised be god , who hath delivered us from the impositions of prelatical innovacions , altar-genu-flections , and cringings , with crossings , and all that popish trash and trumpery . and truly ( i speak no more then what i have often thought , and said ) the removal of those insupportable burdens , countervails for the blood and creasure shed and spent in these late distractions ▪ nor did i ever as yet hear of any godly men that desired , were it possible , to purchase their friends , or money again , at so dear a ra●…e , as with the return of these : to have those soul-burdening , antichristian yokes re-imposed upon us. and if any such there be , i am sure , that d●…sire is no part of their godliness ; and i profess my self , in that , to be none of the number . p. 23. v. the persons of princes may be resisted , though not their authority . the man who is king , may be resisted , but not the royal office : the king in concreto , but not the king in abstracto . p. 265. [ he may be resisted in a pitch't battel , and with swords , and guns . 324. that is ; his private will may be resisted , not his legal will. 269. neither is he in the field , as a king , but as ●…n unjust invader , and grassator . 334. if he chance to be slain , 't is but an accident ; and who can help it ? 324. he is guilty of his own death ; or let them answer for 't that brought him thither , the contrary party is innocent . 273. ] the king's authority is with the two houses , though the person of charles stuart be not there . his capacity was at westminster , when his body was upon the scaffold at whitehall , &c. p. 18. vi. the king is singulis major , universis minor . the king is in dignity inferior to the people . p. 140. the soveraign power is eminently ; fontaliter ; originally , and radically in the people . 156. detrahere indigno magistratum etsi privati non debeant , populus tamen universus quin possit , nemo , opinor , dubitabit . it is not for private persons to depose a wicked governour : but that the universality of the people may lawfully do it , i think no body questions . fixum ratúmque habeatur , populi semper esse debere supremam majestatem . p. 9. vii . the people may enter into a covenant for reformation , without the consent of the chief magistrate . there is much sin in making a covenant on sinful grounds , and there is more sin in keeping it ; but when the preservation of true religion , and the vindication of just liberties meet in the ground , ye may swear , and not repent ; yea , if ye swear , ye must not repent . p. 18. not only is that covenant which god hath made with us , founded in the blood of christ ; but that also , which we make with god. p. 33. the breach of the national covenant is a greater sin , then a sin against a commandment , or against an ordinance . 158. — a sin of so high a nature , that god cannot in honour but be avenged upon 't . 159. viii . religion may be propagated by the sword . the question in england is , whether christ , or anti-christ , shall be lord , or king ? go on therefore couragiously : never can ye lay out your blood in such a quarrel . christ shed all his blood to save you from hell. venture all yours , to set him upon his throne p. 23. cursed be he that withholdeth his sword from blood ; that spares , when god saith strike ; that suffers those to escape , whom god has appointed to destruction . p. 24. in the 10 of numbers , you shall read that there were two silver trumpets ; and as there were priests appointed for the convocation of their assemblies , so there were priests to sound the silver trumpets to proclaim the war. and likewise in the 20 of deuteronomy , you shall find there , that when the children of israel would go out to war , the sons of levi ( one of the priests ) was to make a speech to encourage them . and certainly , if this were the way of god in the old testament ; certainly , much more in such a cause as this , in which cause , religion is so entwin'd , and indeed so enterlac'd , that religion , and this cause , are like hippocrates his twins , they must live , and dye together . you have vowed in this covenant to assist the forces raised by the parliament , according to your power , and vocation ; and not to assist the forces raised by the king , neither directly , nor indirectly . p. 45. now let me exhort you , not only to chuse to serve god , and to serve his church , and his cause , in this most iust defensive war , &c. 46. in vain shall you in your fasts , with josua , ly on your faces , unless you lay your achans on their backs ; in vain are the high praises of god in your mouthes , without a two-edged sword in your hands . p. 31. the execution of iudgment is the lords work , and they shall be cursed that do it negligently ; and cursed shall they be that keep back their sword from blood in this cause . you know the story of gods message unto ahab , for letting benhadad go upon composition . p. 26. whensoever you shall behold the hand of god , in the fall of babylon , say ; ●…rue ; here is a babylonish priest crying out , alas ! alas ! my living ; i have wife and children to maintein . i : but all this is to perform the iudgment of the lord. p. 30. though as little ones , they call for pitty , yet as babylonish , they call for iustice , even to blood. ix . there lies an appeal from the letter of the law , to the equity of it : and from the law written , to the law of nature . the commander going against the equity of the law , gives liberty to the commanded , to refuse obedience to the letter of it . there is a court of necessity , no less then a court of justice ; and the fundamental laws must then speak : and it is with a people , in this extremity , as if they had no ruler . p. 113. the people have given the politique power to the king ; and the natural power they reserve to themselves . 151. all humane laws and constitutions are made with knees , to bend to the law of nature and necessity . p. 85. here is more then enough said already ; and to go on as far as the matter would carry us , there would be no end on 't . you are now at ●…berty , either to deny these to be the positions of the non-con●… ; or to justifie the positions themselves ; or to lay down your plea for toleration , upon the innocency of their principles . n. c. i am no friend to these positions : neither can i yet quit my clai●… , unless you make it out , that these are the principles of the party , which i take to be only the errours of individuals . c. shew me the party , and let me alone to prove these to be their principles . but if you will not acknowledge a party , they are ( as you say ) but the errours of individuals ; though all the non-conformists in the three kingdoms should own them under their hands . you call your selves non-confermists , and so were they , that both began , and carried on the late war. great apprehensions they had of the designs of the popish party . [ so have you . ] mightily offended they were at the immoderate power of the bishops . [ you again . ] petitioners for the taking away such oppressions in religion , church government , and discipline , as had been brought in , and fomented by them . [ your very picture still . ] and for uniting all such together , as joyn in the same fundamental truths against the papists : ●…hy removing some oppressions , and unnecessary ceremonies , by which , divers weak consciences have been scrupled , and seem to be divided from the rest . [ the very platform of your comprehension . ] thus far you march hand in hand : i need not tell you what followed upon 't ; but your parts are so much alike , that it looks as if we were now again upon the first seene of the same tragedy . for a conclusion , conformity , or in-conformity , seem'd at first to be the sum of the question ; and the discipline of the church was made the ground of the quarrel . the ru●…ing party in the pretended parliament , were non-conformists ; the army , non-conformists ; the pre●…ended assembly of divines were non conformists ; the city-ministers , and lecturers , non-conformists ; and by the sol●…mn league and covenant , every man that took it , was to be a non-conformist , upon pain of damnation . now take your choice , ( since non-conformists you are ) whether you 'l range your selves under the parliament ; your army ; your assembly ; your city-ministers ; or your solemn league and covenant : and let me bear the blame , if i make it not as clear as the day , that the principles charg'd upon you , are the principles of your party . as to your practises , they haue been suitable to your positions ; and all those violences have been exercised upon the government , that were first dictated in the pulpit . the lawfulness of popular insurrections ; of deposing , and putting kings to death , under the cloak of reformation , has been vented as the doctrine of iesus christ , even by the oracles of your cause : nay ; and several of them ( at present ) eager asserters of the equity of a toleration . and what has been the fruit of these unchristian-lectures ; but the subversion both of church , and state : and the murder of a pio●… , and gracious prince , under pretence of doing god and the kingdom good service ? n. c. these are actions ( i confess ) not to be warranted . but yet my charity perswades me , that a great part of the mischief they did , proceeded rather from necessity , then inclination . c. will ye see then what they did afterward , when they were at liberty to do what they listed ? they had no sooner murdered the father , but immediately a they made it death to proclaim the son. b they abolish't kingly government . c sold the crown-lands . d declared it treason to deny the supremacy of the commons . e nulled all honours and titles granted by the king since — 41. f made scotland one commonwealth with england , &c. have they now kept any better touch with the liberty and property of the subjects ? let their proceedings witness for them ; a as their tax upon the fifth and twentieth part. b excise upon flesh , victuals , and salt. c a new excise upon allom , copperas , monmouth-caps , hops , saffron , starch , &c. d a loan of 66666 l. 13 s. 4 d. for supply of the scots . e an assessment for the maint●…nance of the army . f the house of peers abolish't ; and a monethly tax of 90000 l. for the army . g a monthly tax of 120000 l. h an imposition upon coal . i a monthly assessment of 60000 l. not to clog the discourse with over many particulars : we 'l see next , what they have done , toward the moderating of the power of bishops , and the removal of unnecessary ceremoni●…s . k the arch-bishop of canterbury suspend●…d , and his t●…mporalties sequestred . l monuments of superstition demolish't ; ( that is , in short , an ordinance for sacriledge ) m the book of common-prayer laid aside , and the directory commanded instead of it . n arch-bishops and bishops abolish't , and their lands settled in trustees . o their lands exposed to sale. p festivals abolish't . q deans and chapters , &c. abolish't : and their lands to be sold. this is your way , of moderating the power of bishops , and of removing unnecessary ceremonies . and this is the history ( in little ) of the opinions , and practises of your party : drawn from matter of fact ; provable to a syllable ; and deliver'd without any amplification of the matter . n c. ill things have been done , there 's no question on 't ; but they have been done by ill men : and 't is not a toleration of faction that we pretend to , but a toleration of conscience . c , which toleration ( upon farther search ) will be found to be a meer utopian project , or w●…rse . sect . x. the non-conformists demand a toleration , which is neither intelligible in the whole , nor practicable , so far as it may be understood . c. it makes a great noise in the world , the out-cry of the non-conformists , for toleration , indalgence , liberty of conscience , comprehension , &c. let them but set it down in a clear , practicable , and intelligible proposition , and i dare say , they shall have it for the asking . n. c. we do propound , that reformed christianity may be settled in its due latitude . c. by reformed christianity , i suppose you intend the protestant religion : but your due latitude is of a suspicious intimation . do not you remember a declaration of the two houses ( april 9. 1642. ) for a due , and necessary reformation of the government , and liturgy of the church : and nothing to be taken away , either in the one , or in the other , but what should be found evil , and justly offensive ; or , at the least , unnecessary , and burdensom ? this due reformation ended ( as you may remember ) in a total extirpation of both liturgy and government : and we see nothing to the contrary , but your due latitude may signifie the very same thing with their due reformation . pray be a little clearer . n. c. then to put all out of doubt ; i would , in the first place , have an establish't order : secondly ; a limited toleration : thirdly , a discreet connivence . the parties comprehended in the establishment , to be of importance in the publique interest ; and of principles congruous to such stated order in the church , as the stability of the commonwealth requires . i would have the toleration , to extend to those that are of sound belief , and go●…d life ; yet have taken in some principles of church-government less congruous to national settlem●…nt . and for connivence ; it is to be remitted to discretion . c. what is all this now , but an universal toleration , in a disguise ? some to be comprehended within the establishment ; others to be tolerated ; and the rest to be connived at . again ; your establishment is to be of a latitude , to take in several sorts of dissenters , under such and such qualifications . they must be of importance in the publique interest ; and of principles congruous to such stated order in the church , as the stability of the commonwealth requires . ask the dissenters themselves concerning their own qualifications , and they 'l tell you . that they are all of them , of important interests , and of congruou●… principles : so that this way , you are still upon an universal toleration . but on the other side , if you consult authority about your comprehension , the preface to the act for uniformity will tell you , that the establishment is as wide already as the peace of the nation will well bear . if you 'l acquiesce in this iudgment , the case is determined to our hand : if you appeal from it , you cast your selves out of the pale of your own project , because of your principles incongruous to the reason of government . n. c. but it appears to us , that the stated order of the church may be widen'd , without any check to the stability of government . c. and what will this avail you , if it appears otherwise to the governours themselves ? if they may be iudges , the strife is at an end ; but if you think to help your selves by translating the iudgment to the people ; after that day , let us never expect any other law , then the dictate of the rabble . it removes the very foundations of the government , and carries us headlong into anarchy , and confusion , without redemption . if a man should ask you now , about your importance in publique interest ; first ; as to the interest it self , whether you mean an interest of raising men , and moneys ; or what other ? next ; as to the degree , and measure of your importance ; how many regiments of the one , and how many millions of the other , makes up that importance ? would you not take time for an answer ? and then , we are as much at a loss about your [ such stated order in the church as the stability of the common-wealth requires ] you give us no satisfaction at all , wherein the stability of the commonwealth consists ; or what stated order in the church that stability requires : but here is a kind of a moot-point cast in , betwixt authority , and the people , which of the two shall determine , upon that congruity , and convenience . your limited toleration too stands or falls upon the same bottem , with your comprehension : that is to say , who shall iudge of the sound belief , and good life , of the pretendents to that indulgence . as to your connivence , you say nothing of it your self ; and i shall reflect as little upon it . let me only observe upon the whole ; that if you had really a mind to set us right , methinks , you should not trifle us with these ambiguities , and amusements : but rather endeavour by some pertinent , intelligible , and practicable proposition , to bring us to a better understanding . say , what injunctions you would have abated ; name the parties you would recommend for their importance of interests , congruity of principles , sound faith , and good life . teach us how to know these qualities , where to look for them , and who shall iudge of them. let it be made out , that the present sollicitors for tender consciences , are duly authorized , and commission'd to act as the trustees of the respective parties . do this ; and matters may be brought yet to a comfortable issue : but so long as you place the conditions of your indulgence out of the reach of ordinary proof , and indeed , of humane knowledg , every man that is excluded , shall dispute his title to the comprehension , without any possibility of being confuted ; to the scandal of religion , and to the perpetual trouble , both of king , and people . n. c. to set forth the propounded latitude , in the particular limits thereof , were presumptuous , both in reference to superiors , and to the party concerned in it . c. as if it were not a greater presumption , to alienate the affections of the people from their superiors , by reflectings upon the iniquity of the government , then by the tender of some rational medium of accord , to dispose the hearts of superiors to a compliance with the prayers , and necessities of the people . but there is more in these generalities , and r●…serves then the multitude are well aware of ; and i am afraid , it will be as hard a matter , to bring you to an agreement about the p●…rticular parties to be tol●…rated , as about the model it self . sect . xi . the non-conformists demand a toleration , for no body knows whom , or what . c. the non-conformists are the party that desire a toleration ; pray let me ask ye , what are their opinions ? what are their names ? for , i presume , you will not expect a toleration , for no body knows what , or whom . are they all of a mind ? if they were tolerated themselves , would they tolerate one another ? are they come to any resolution upon articles ? are they agreed upon any model of accommodation ? do they know what they would be at ? or is it in the wit of man , to contrive a common expedient to oblige them ? n. c. there 's no body says , that they are all of a mind ; or that it is p●…ssible to please them all ; or reasonable to end●…avour it . there are divers among them , whose principles will never endure any order either in church , or state. but what is the sober part the worse for these extravagants ? those , i mean , who are ready to iustifie themselves ; even according to the strictness of your own measures . c. if you are for such a toleration , as shall exclude the wild , and ungovernable sects of dissenters ; how comes it , that , in your writings , and argumentations , you still plead the general cause of non-conformists , without any exception , or distinction ? n. c. you are not to fasten a charge of this quality upon us ; that have already submitted our selves , not only to the moderation of a limited indulgence , but to your own conditions also , under that very limitation . c. this you have done , i must confess , in general terms ; but still i say , as to particulars , your discourses are of such a frame and biass , as to give credit , and encouragement , to every sect of the whole party . n. c. i am of a perswasion , but not of a party : and whatsoever my perswasion be , it is moderate , catholick , and pacifick . c. and so is every man's , if his own word may be taken for his own perswasion . but why a●…e ye so nic●… , and cautious , in the owning of a particular way , and profession ; and yet so frank , and open , in a clamor for the whole party ? you complain that you are persecuted , and yet obstruct the means of your own relief . some , ye say , are to be indulged ; others , not. how shall authority distinguish of which number you your selves are ; so long as you remain under this concealment ? are you for the presbyterians ? n. c. i am not ashamed of their company , that are commonly called by that name : yet i have no ple●…sure in such n●…mes of distinction . neither my design , nor my principles , engage me to maintein the presbyterial government . c. are you in●…endent then ? n. c. neither . but yet i am ( as i told you ) for tolerating th●…se of sound faith , and good life , that have taken up s●…me principles of church-government l●…ss congruous to national settlement . c. what do you think of the anabaptists , brownists , quakers , & c ? n c. why truly , so it is , that prudent , and pious men may be of exceeding narrow principles , about church-order , and fellowship : toward whom , christian charity pleadeth for indulgence ; and , we hope , political prudence doth not gainsay it . c. so that you are for all parties , but not of any . which gen●…rality gives to understand , that your business , is rather a confederacy , then a scruple . n. c. make that good if you can . sect . xii . the conjunct importunity of the non-conformists for a toleration , is not grounded upon matter of conscience . n. c. you are the first person certainly that ever undertook to make proof of a conscience . c. and yet our saviour tells us , ( in this very case of hypocrisie ) that the tree may be known by its fruits : but however ; the best way of proving a thing feasible , is the doing of it . the non-conformists refuse communion with the church : what is it they boggle at ? n. c. a they do esteem the ceremonies an excess in the worship of god. pag. 31. b [ and dissent from the present establishment of religion , only in things relating to outward order , and worship . pa. 12 c about the choice of some peculiar ways of worship . pa. 12. d but as to the english reformation , established by law , they heartily embrace it , and assent to the doctrine of faith conteined in the articles of the church of england . pa. 22. e they have no new faith to declare : no new doctrine to teach ; no private opinions to divulge ; no point , or truth to profess , which hath not been declared , taught , divulged , and esteem●…d , as the common doctrine of the church of england , ever since the reformation . pa. 11. f they come up to a full agreement , in all material things , with them , from whom they dissent . pa. 30. c. if they agree in all material things , it follows , that they divide about matters inconsiderable ; and break the order , peace , and unity of the church for trifles . ( things indifferent , and relating to outward order , and worship . ) n. c. in prescribed forms , and rites of religion , the conscience will interpose , and concern it self ; and cannot resign it self to the dictates of men , in the points of divine worship . and those injunctions , which to the imposers , are indifferent ; in the consciences of the dissenters , are unlawful . and what humane authority can warrant any one to put in practice , an unlawful , or suspected action ? pa. 26. c. if this be , really , conscience ; you will be found as cautious in venturing , deliberately , upon a suspected action , in all other cases , as you are in this. but what if it shall appear , that this fit of tenderness only takes you , when you are to pay an obedience to the law ; and that you are as bold as lions , when you come to oppose it ? will you not allow us to think it possible , that there may be somewhat more , in the importunities , and pretences of the non-conformists , then matter of conscience ? 't is a suspected action to kneel at the sacrament ; but none , to hold up your hands at the covenant . you make a conscience of disclaiming the obligation of that covenant , in order to the security of the government : but none at all , of leaguing your selves in a conspiracy , for the subversion of it . where was your tenderness , in suspected cases , when , to encourage rapine , sacriledge , and rebellion , was the common business of your counsels , and pulpits ? when it was safer to deny the trinity , then to refuse the covenant . when the same persons , that started at a ceremony , made no scruple at all , of engaging the kingdom in blood ; and laying violent hands upon their sovereign . is not this , streining at a gnat , and swallowing a camel ? n. c. the non-conformists , i know , are charged with principles , that detract from kingly power ; and tend to advance popular faction . it is true , they have been eager asserters of legal liberties . pag. 40. but these are things gone and past , and nothing to our present purpose . the wise man says , he that repeateth a matter , separateth very friends . a looking back to former discords , mars the most hopeful redi●…egration . acts of indemnity , are acts of oblivion also , and must be so observed . pa. 41. c. the non-conformists ( the sole actors in the late war ) were only eager asserters ( it seems ) of legal liberties : you do not deal so gingerly with the bishops , in the point of ceremonies , as to let them come off , with the character of eager assertors of legal authorities . so that herein also , your consciences stumble at straws , and leap over blocks . now , whereas you will have it , that a reflection upon former discords , is a violation of the act of indemnity ; and impertinent to our purpose : my answer is ; first , that i do not revive the memory of former discords as a reproach ; but i make use of some instances out of former passages , to make good my assertion : that your conjunct imp●…rtunity for a toleration , is not grounded upon conscience . and to shew you , that your practises , and professions grin one upon another . for conscience is all of a pi●…ce ; not tender , and delicate on the one side , and callous , and unfeeling , on the other . secondly , suppose we should make a little bold with the act of oblivion : i think we have as much right to do it , as you have to fall foul upon the act of uniformity . unless you conceive , that the mercy you have received by one law , gives you a privilege of invading all the rest . as to authority ; it is one and the same in both ; and if there were any place for complaint against the equity of a legal establishment , it would lie much fairer against the act of indemnity . on the behalf of the royallists , ( that have ruined their estates and families in the defence of the law ; and yet after all , are thereby condemned to sit down in silence , and despair ) then against the act of uniformity , on the behalf of the non-conformists ; who by the one law , are secured in the profits of their late disobedience ; and by the other , are taken into the arms of the church , according to the ancient , and common rule , with the rest of his majesties protestant subjects : the same rule , i say ; saying where it is moderated with abatements , and allowances , in favour of pretended scruples . n. c. whereas you make the non-conformists the sole actors in our late confusions , you run your self upon a great mistake : for — it hath been manifested to the world , by such as undertook to iustifie it , when authority should require , [ that the year before the king's death , a select number of iesui●…s being sent from their whole party in england , consulted both the faculty of sorbonne , and the pope's council at rome , touching the lawfulness and expediency , of promoting the change of government , by making away the king , whom they despaired to turn from his hereste : it was debated , and concluded , in both places , that for the advancement of the catholick cause , it was lawful , and expedient to carry on that alteration of state. this determination was effectually pursued by many iesuits , that came over , and acted their parts in several disguises . pag. 15. c. if this be true , and proveable ; ( as you affirm it is ) you cannot do the protestant cause a more important service , then to make it out to the parliament : who ( you know ) have judg'd the mat●…er worthy of their search , and have appointed a committee to receive informations . pa. 2. nay , which is more , you are a betrayer of the cause if you do it not . the whole party in england , do you say ? prove out this , and you kill the whole popish party at a blow . this was the year before the king's death , it seems : whas not that within the retrospect of the act of indemnity ? if so , tell me i beseech you , why may not we take the same freedom with the non-conformists , that you do with the papists ? n. c. we shall never have done , if you lash out thus upon digressions . pray keep to the question . c. as close as you please . what if a man should shew you a considerable number , of the eminent , and active instruments in the late war , to be now in the head of the present outcry for toleration ? ( take this into your supposition too , that these very persons promoted our troubles , this very way ; and proceeded from the reformation of discipline , to the dissolution of government ) are we bound in charity to take all their pretensions of scruple for real tenderness of conscience ? n. c. beyond all question ; unless you can either evidence their errour to be unpardonable , or the men themselves , impenitent . c. why then let amesius determine betwixt us. [ peccata illa , quae publicè fuerunt nota , debent etiam confessione publicâ damnari ; quià ad quos malum ipsum exempli contagione pervenerat , ad eos etiam poenitentiae , ac emendationis documentum , si fieri possit , delet transmitti . ] publique sins require publique confession ; to the end , that as many as were mis●…ed by the example , may be set right again by the retraction , and repentance . this conclusion pronounces all those of the old stamp , that abused the people formerly , under colour of conscience ; and are now at work again , upon the same pretext , without a publique recantation , to be in a state of impenitency : and gives us reasonably to presume , that if their consciences can swallow , and digest a rebellion , there is no great danger of their being choak'd with a ceremony . another thing is this ; you do not plead for particular iudgments ; ( in which case , a plea of conscience may be allowed ) but every man urges the equity ( in effect ) of a toleration for all the rest. in which number , you your selves do , severally , and jointly , acknowledge , that there are a great many people of insociable and intolerable principles ; such as in conscience are not to be admitted . and yet herein also , you profess to be guided by impulses of tenderness , and piety ; although in opposition to the whole course of your former declarations , and proceedings , that rise up in judgment against you. n. c. if you grant , that there may be a plea for particulars , i shall not much trouble my self about generals . c. that point shall come on in due time . but let us look a little further yet , into the general cause ; for if it be not conscience , it is confederacy . sect . xiii . the conjunct importunity of the non-conformists for a toleration , is a manifest confederacy . c. this appears , first , from the method of their proceedings ; secondly , from the natural prospect , and tendency of that method ; thirdly , from the nature , and quality of their demands , and arguments ; fourthly ; from the way , and manner of their addresses , and applications ; lastly ; from their agreement in matters of dangero●…s consequence upon the peace of the government . as to their method ; the non-conformists of this age ●…read in the very steps of their predecessors : and this you may observe throughout the whole history of them ; even from the first time that ever the pretence of popular reformation set foot in his majesties dominions unto this instant . this is not a place for a deduction of particulars at length ; but a touch from point to point , will not be much amiss . wherefore , if you please , give me a brief accompt of the non-conformists . first , what kind of people they are ; secondly , what it is they would have ; thirdly , what will the kingdom be the better for granting their desires ? fourthly , what are their grievances , as the case stands with them at present ? fifthly , what are they for number , and resolution ? n. c. they are a people zealous of religion , pa. 43. an intelligent , sober sort of m●…n , and numerous among all ranks , p. 25. * peaceable , and useful in the commonwealth ; sound in the faith ; men of conscience ; evident opposers of all errors pernicious to the souls of men , and of an evil aspect upon the publique peace . c. very good : and were not the conspirators that seiz'd king iames , at ruthnen , ( 1582. ) as much as all this amounts to ? if you will believe either themselves , or the assembly at edinburgh in their behalf . the reforming non-conformists under queen elizabeth were unreprovable before all men ; her majesties most loyal subjects , and god's faithful servants : [ most worthy , faithful , and peinful ministers ; modest , watchful , knowing in the scriptures , and of honest conversation ; ( learned , and godly ; says the admonitioner , pa. 25. and martin senior calls them , the strength of our land , and the sinew of her majesties government . the scotch covenanters , in 1638. out-did all this , for zeal to his majesties person , and authority : the true religion , liberties , and laws of the kingdom . and the two houses at westminster , in 1642. come not behind . them , in their professions , for the defence , and maintenance of the true religion ; the king's person , honour , and estate , and the iust rights , and li●…erties of the subject . here 's your character : now to your d●…mands , what is it you would have ? n. c. a a reformation of church-government , liturgy , and ceremonies . b a bearing with weak consciences : c and a relaxation of the prescribed uniformity . c. and this you will find to have been the constant pretence of the non-conformists , if you consult their story , from one end to the other . [ not to let loose the golden reins of discipline , and government in the church ; but to unburthen the consciences of men , of needless , and superstitious ceremonies , suppress innovations , and settle a preaching ministry , &c. put the case now , that you had your asking ; what would the kingdom be the better for it ? n. c. it will be the better for the king , church , nobility , and gentry . [ and there is no nation under heaven , wherein such an indulgence , or toleration as is desired , would be more welcome , us●…ful , acceptable ; or more subservient to tranquillity , trade , wealth , and peace . c. reformation no enemy to her maj●…sty and the state , is the very title of a desperate libel , printed 1590. against both. and the humble motioner tells you , that it is for the advantage of the queen , clergy , nobility , and commonalty ; that the wealth and honour of the realm will be encreased by it , &c. this was the stile too of our reformers , in 1642. the securing of the publique peace , safety and happiness of the realm ; and the laying the foundation , of more honour , and happiness , to his majesty , then ever was enjoy'd by any of his royal predecessors . — now speak your grievances . n. c. we are excommunicated , outlawed , imprison'd . our families starved , and begg●…r'd . p. 8. proceeded against with outward punishments , pecuniary , and corporal , nay death it self . p. 9. [ and all this while trade languishes , rents fall , money scarce . p. 26. never a greater separation ; never a more general dissatisfaction . p. 27. c. pray'e say : was it ever better , since non-conformists came into the world ? was not king iames , a favourer of the enemies of god's truth , and of dissolute persons ? a discountenancer of godly ministers ? a promise-breaker to the church ; and a perverter of the laws ; insomuch that no man could be assured of his lands , and life ? was it any better even under the celebrated government of queen elizabeth ? a there were citations , degradings , and deprivations . b some in the marshalsey ; some in the white-lion ; some in the gate●…house at westminster ; others in the counter , or in the clinke , or in bride-well , or in newgate . [ how many good mens deaths have the bishops been the cause of ? how many have they driven to leave the ministry , and live by physique ? or to leave their countrey ? [ poor men have been miserably handled , with revilings , deprivations , imprisonments , banishments : and out of this realm , they have all the best reformed churches through christendom against them . [ if this persecution be not provided for , great trouble will come of it . how your party demean'd themselves toward the late king , of blessed memory , in the matter of calumny , and reproach , you may read at large in that grand , and infamous libel ; the remonstrance of the state of the kingdom , decemb. 15. 1642. but after all this ; what are these people , for number , and resolution , that make such a clutter ? n. c. thousands of the upright of the land. petition for peace , pag. 21. ] multitudes ▪ dissent , and resolve to continue so doing ; whatever they suffer for it . pa. 20. and to forego the u●…most of their earthly concernments , rather then to live and die in an open rebellion to the commanding light of god in their consciences . — to ruine men in their substantials of body , and life , for ceremonies ; is a severity , which englishmen will not , long time , by any means , give countenance unto . pa. 23. [ to execute extremity upon an intelligent , sober , and peaceable sort of men , so numerous among all ranks , may prove exceeding difficult , unless it be executed by such instruments as may strik ●…errour into the whole nation . p. 25. c. was not queen elizabeth told of thousands , and hundreds of thousands , that sighed for the holy discipline ? and that since neither parliament , nor convocation-house would take it into consideration , they might blame themselves , if it came in by such means , as would make all their hearts ake ? the truth will prevail ( says the demonstrator ) in spight of your teeth , and all the adversaries of it . the most unnatural , ca●…eless , and horrible rebellion , that this , or ( perhaps ) any other age in the world hath been acqu●…nted with ( to borrow the words of his late majesty ) was profaced with a petition in the name of all the men , women , children , and servants , of edinburgh , against the service-book : and another , in the name of the noblemen , gentry , ministers , and burgesses , against the service-book , and book of canons ; ●…rotesting afterwards , that if any inconvenience should fall out , by reason of pressing those-innovations , it was not to be imputed to them , that sought all things to be reformed by order . this commotion in scotland , led the way to our succeeding broils in england ; which were promoted by the like artifices . great numbers of his majesties subjects , opprest by fines , imprisonments , stig●…atizings ; and many thousands of tradesmen , and artificers , empoverish't by a generality , and multiplicity of vexations . [ great numbers of learned , and pious ministers suspended , deprived , and degraded . in fine , from pamphlets , they advanced to petitions ; from petitions , to tumults ; and from thence , into a formal state of war. n. c. so that from this agreement in method , you will pretend to infer a conformity of design . c. from this agreement in method ; and from the natural tendency of this method , i think a man may honestly conclude , it can be nothing else : and i doubt not , but upon a sober examination of the matter , i shall find you of the same opinion . the most sacred of all bonds is that of government , next to that of religion ; and the reverence which we owe to humane authority , is only inferior to that which we owe to god himself . this being duly weighed , and that the lesser obligation must give place to the greater . ( as for instance ) reason of state , to matter of religion , and humane laws to the law divine : what has any man more to do , for the embroyling of a nation , but first to puzzle the peoples heads with doubts , and scruples , about their respective duties to god , and man ; and then , to possess them , that this , or that political constitution , has no foundation in the holy scriptures ? to bid them stand fast in the liberty wherewith christ hath made them free , galat. 5. 1. and finally , to engage the name of god , and the credit of religion in the quarrel ? n. c. and do not you your self believe it better to obey god , then man ? c. yes ; but i think it best of all to obey both : to obey god , for himself , in spirituals ; and man , for god's sake , in temporals , as he is god's commissioner . but tell me ; are you not convinced , that the most likely way in the world to stir up subjects against their prince , is to proclaim the iniquity of his laws , and then to preach damnation upon obedience ? n. c. what if it be ? does it follow , because religion may be made a cloak for a rebellion , that , therefore , it is never to be pleaded for a reformation ? c. truly i have seldom known a conscientio●… reformation , accompanied with the circumstances of our case . here is , first , a character of the non-conformists , drawn by their own hand ; and set off with such flourishes of purity , and perfection , as if the scribes and pharisees themselves had sit for their picture . in the second place , you demand , partly , a reformation ; partly , a toleration : and in the third , you assure us , that all england shall be the better for 't . ( of these two points hereafter . ) in the fourth , you enlarge upon your grievances ; and instead of applying to the government , on the behalf of the people , you are clearly upon the strein of appeal to the people from the rigour of the government . your text is liberty of conscience ; but the stress of your discourse lies upon the liberty of the subject : the decay of trade , scarcity of money , fall of rents , the substantials of body , and life , imprisonment , &c. upon the whole ; your writings want nothing but form , of a direct indictment of king and parliament for persecution , and tyranny ; and would very well bear the translation of their being led on by the instigation of the devil , not having the fear of the lord before their eyes . if you can defend this manner of proceeding , pray do it . n. c. what can be of greater concernment to governours ; then to discern , and consider the state of their people , as it is indeed ? and why may it not be minded of subjects , and spoken of , without any hint , or thought of ●…ebellion ? pag. 27. c. but what can be of greater mischief to governours , then under colour of remonstrating to them , the state of their people , at the same time , to disaffect the people , by an odious accompt of the errors , misfortunes , and calamities of the government ? governours are not to be told their faults in the market-place ; neither are ministers of the gospel , by your own rules , to be admitted for privy-counsellors . this is spoken as to the good office of your information . as to the intention of it , i am not so bold , as to judge your thoughts : but if you had any drift at all in it , and consider'd what you did , i do not see , how you can acquit your self of evil meaning . suppose the whole invective true ; and that you suffer for righteousness . ( to make the fairest of it ) what effect do you expect these discourses may have upon the people ? and waat upon the magistrate ? will not every man conclude , that the english are the wretched'st slaves upon the face of the earth ? neither liberty of religion , nor of person , for any man that makes a conscience of his ways : the whole nation , groaning under beggery , and bondage . now see what effects these impressions may reasonably produce ; and those effects are a●… reasonably to be taken for the scope of your intention . turn now to the magistrate , and say ; what proportion do you find betwixt these rude disobligations upon the government , and the returns of grace , and favour you desire so earnestly from it ? on the other side ; if your report be false , your design appears still to be the same ; only with the aggravations , of more animosity , and malice in pursuance of it . but true , or false , it is nothing at all to the business of toleration , but a palpable transition from matter of conscience , to matter of state. this is the course , in general , of our advocates for toleration ; and by the desperate sallies , they make , from religion , to government , in their pamphlets , a man may guess what it is they would be at in their pulpits . n. c. oppression makes a wiseman mad ; and 't is not generous to descant upon every thing , that is bolted in heat , and passion , as if it were a formed discourse , upon deliberation , and counsel . c. but is it not a strange thing ( my good friend ) for so many men to be mad at a time ; and to be mad the same way too ? if you will have it , that they mean just nothing at all , i am content ; but if they mean any thing , and all agree in the same meaning ; it can be nothing else but a confederacy . the next point makes it yet more evident ; that is to say , the marshalling of their numbers , and their thousands ; the boast of their interest , in all parties , and of the difficulty to suppress them : the proclamation of their resolution to live and die in defence of their opinions , with an innu●…ndo of the magistrates meddling with them at their peril . what can be the end of this rhodomontade ; but to startle the government , on the one side , and to animate the multitude , on the other ? it is no argument at all for an indulgence , that they are many , powerful , and resolute ; but point blank against it : unless they can approve themselves to be regular , governable , and honest . to sum up all ; here are faults found in the government ; and the people tamper'd into a dislike of it ; so that here 's a disposition to a change , wrought already . no sooner is the multitude perswaded of the necessity of a reformation ; but behold the manner of it ; it must be either by a thorough-alteration , a comprehension , a toleration , or a connivence . and for the principal undertakers , you may put your lives in their hands ; for ( if they do not slander themselves ) they are as godly , an intelligent sort of people , as a man shall see in a summers day . now , for the introducing of this reformation , there is no way , but to set up the word of god , against the law of the land : by the un-bishopping of timothy , and titus ; and giving the people a sight of the iewish sanhed●…m , and gamaliel's dilemma , through a pair of reforming spectacles ; by which , they discover the divine right of presbytery , with one eye ; and that of universal toleration with the other ; and so become one in the common cause of maintaining gospel worship , against humane inventions . the next care is , to gratifie the common people ; for there 's nothing to be done , till they come ; and there is no reason in the world , that the poor wretches should venture soul , life , and estate , gratis ! this is effected , by the doctrine of liberty of conscience . for grant but every man a right , of acting , according to the dictate of his conscience , and he has consequently , a liberty of doing whatsoever he shall pretend to be according to that dictate ; and of refusing to do , whatsoever he shall say is against it : by which invention , the laws of the kingdom are subjected to the pretended consciences of the people ; and the multitude are made the iudges of the controversie . now comes in the ioynt-struggle of the non-conformists for a toleration . this , if it may be obtain'd , puts them in a capacity of doing the rest , themselves . but in case of opposition , their last resort is to a muster of their forces ; a computation of their strength , and interests ; which is the very same thing , as if they should say , in so many syllables ; gentlemen ; you see the parliament does not regard us : we have a good cause , and hands enow to do the work , in spight of their hearts : ●…p and be doing . after this ; there wants nothing , but the word , the sword of the lord , and of gideon , to crown the enterprize . if this be not a conspiracy , tell me what is. n. c. you say , it is ; and we deny it . c. there are strong presumptions also of a confederacy , to be gathered from the nature , and quality of your demands . you desire a comprehension , a toleration ; but then you place the conditions of it , out of the reach of ordinary proof , and indeed , of humane cognizance . ( as is shew'd already ) so that no body knows , who are to be comprehended , and who left out . this looks , as if your business were rather to enflame the difference , then to compose it . and then , when you are prest to name , and specifie the parties you plead for ; ( since by your own confession , several are to be excluded ) you fly still to the generalities , of important interests , and congruous principles , and so leave the matter utterly uncapable of any clear , and logical result ; unless you will allow governours the inspection of their subjects hearts : or teach us how to reduce wild , and uncertain notions , under the prospect of a steady law. but the reason of your dealing thus in the dark , i suppose may be this : your design is to be carry'd on under the countenance of the common cause , wherein , all those persons are united against the government , that would otherwise spend their animosities , one upon another , and break into a thousand pieces among themselves . now for you to declare for any one party , were virtually , to declare against all the rest , and dissolve the combination . touching the manner of their addresses , i shall only add , ( to what is past ) that they are invectives , against those that cannot relieve them , without any formal application to those that can : and tend naturally to the tumultuating of the people , without any colour of contributing to their ben●…fit . of their agreement in matters of dangerous consequence , enough is spoken already , to put it past all contradiction , that their conjunct importunity for a toleration , is a manifest confederacy . wherefore let us now proceed from the drift , and design of their pretensions , to the morality , and reason of them. sect . xiv . the non-conformists joynt pretences for a toleration , overthrown , by the evidence of their joynt-arguments , professions , and practises against it . c. do as you would be done by , is the precept , both of gospel , and nature . with what face then , can you ask a toleration from that government , which of all others , your selves refused to tolerate ? from that prince , to whose blessed father ( in the depth of his agonies ) you cruelly deny'd the use , and service of his own chaplains ? [ a greater ●…igour , and barbarity , then is ever used by christians to the me●…nest prisoners , and greatest malefactors . but they that envy my being a king , are loth i should be a h●…istian while they seek to deprive me of all things else , they are afraid i should save my soul. ; these are the words or that pious prince in his last extremity . n. c. that rigour was the barbarism of a faction , not the principles of the party . c. hear your party speak then . [ it is much , that our brethren should separate from the church ; but that they should endeavour to get a warrant , to authorize their separation from it , and to have liberty ( by drawing members out of it ) to weaken , and diminish it , till , ( so far as lies in them ) they have brought it to nothing ; this we think to be plainly unlawfuf . toleration would be the putting the sword in a madman's hand ; a proclaiming liberty to the wolves , to come into christ's flock to prey upon his lambs . extirpate all achans , with babylonish garments , orders , ceremonies , gestures ; let them be rooted out from among us. you of the honourable house , up ; for the matter belongs to you. we , even all the godly ministers of the countrey , will be with you. toleration makes the scripture a nose of wax : a rule of faith to all religions . liberty of conscience , and toleration of all , or any religion , is so prodigious an impiety , that this religious parli●…ment cannot but abhor the very naming of it . such a toleration is utterly repugnant to , and inconsistent with the solemn league and covenant for reformation . it is unreasonable ( says the defender of the london ministers letter to the assembly ) that independents should desire that toleration of presbyters , which they would not give to presbyters . for with what face can i destre a courtesse from him , to whom i do onenly prosess , 〈◊〉 would deny the same courtesse ? does not this hold as well for us , as it did for you ? n. c. you must not impose the iudgments of particular persons upon us , as instances of publique authority . c. what do ye think then of your national covenant ? was that an act of authority ? wherein you bind your selves by an oath , to settle an uniform presbytery , to the exclusion of all other forms of church-order , or government what soever ; ( under the notion of schism ) and of prel●…cy by name ? are your consciences for toleration now , that were so much against it then ? nay ; there are many among you , that ●…eckon your selves under an obligation , to pursue the ends of that covenant , even to this very day : and do you think it reasonable , for a government to grant privileges , and advantages of power , and credit , to a party , that owns it self under an oath of confederacy to endeavour the extirpation of it ? n. c. you mean i suppose of church-government . c. i mean of both church , and state. was it not the test of the king's enemies , as well as of the bishops ? was it not made death without mercy , for any man , having taken the solemn league and covenant , to adhere to his majesty ? the league and covenant ( says rutherford ) was the first foundation of the ruine of the malignant party in england . and whoever refuses to disclaim it , must be rationally understood , still to drive on the intent of it . so that to tolerate the non-conformists , is to tolerate the sworn adversaries , both of royal , and episcopal authority : nay , to tolerate those that have sworn to persist in that opposition , all the days of their lives ; over and above the tolerating of those upon pretence of conscience for a toleration , that deny to tolerate all other people , upon as strong a pretence of conscience against it . where was this spirit of moderation toward the weak brethren , in the total suppression of the book of common prayer ; and the imposing of the directory , to be o●…served in all the churches within this kingdom ? [ no ruling elders , but such as have taken the national covenant . no electors of elders neither , ( by the ordinance of march 14. 1645. ) but such as have taken the national covenant . [ no ordination , without a testimonial of having taken the covenant of the three kingdoms . none to be admitted , or entertained in the universities , without taking the solemn league and covenant , and the negative oath ; and upon conditions of submission , and conformity to the discipline , and directory . nay further : you will find in the four bills , and propositions sent to his majesty in the isle of wight , ( march 1647. ) when the two parties , presbyterian , and independent were upon so hard a tugg ; that the presbyterian government , and directory seem'd to be resolv'd upon in one line , and unsettled again , in the very next . by a provision : that no persons whatsoever should be liable to any question , or penalty , for non conformity to the form of government , and divine service appointed in the ordinances ; ( then in force ) but be at liberty to meet for the worship of god ; so as nothing might be done to the disturbance of the peace of the kingdom . yet in this crisis of affairs ; they could clap in another stabbing proviso against us , upon the neck of that : i. e. that this indulgence shall not extend to tolerate the use of the book of common-prayer , in any place whatsoever . and at this rate , you treated the episcopal party , throughout the whole course of your power . n. c. and good cause for it . were not they the most likely of all others to disappoint our settlement ? c. agreed . but as to the matter of conscience ; did you well , or ill in 't ? or rather , was there any thing of conscience in the case ? n. c. certainly it was very fit for the civil power to look to it self : and the power ecclesiastical was no less concern'd to exact a consormity to the laws , and ordinances of christ. c. how can you say this , and consider what you say , without blushing ? if you did well , in refusing to tolerate the episcopal way , because you thought it not right ; the reason is as strong for our way , that have the same opinion of yours . if you did well on the other side , out of a political regard to the publique peace , so do we now , upon that very sc●…re . so that you must either confess , that you did ill , then , in refusing a toleration to us ; or otherwise allow , that authority does well , now , in not permitting it to you. n. c. there might be some plea for a little strictness more then ordinary , in the heat of an eager , and publique contention : but methinks a persecution in cold blood , does not savour of the spirit of our profession . sect . xv. the non-conformists joyntcomplaints of hard measure , and persecution , confronted with their own joynt-proceedings . c. what is it that you call hard measure , and persecution ? n. c. your unmerciful impositions , upon tender consciences , by subscriptions , declarations , &c. there are few nations under the heavens of god ( as far as i can learn ) that have more able , holy , faithful , laborious , and truly peaceable preachers of the gospel , ( proportionably ) then those that are now cast out in england , and are like in england , scotland , and ireland to be cast out , if the old conformity be still urged . ours is not a wicked , prophane , drunken ministry . c. that is , by interpretation : god we thank thee , that we are not as other men are . — nor even as these publicans . but to the matter . these people that you speak of , are set aside for not obeying the law : but what do you think of those , that were turn'd out of their livings , because they would not oppose it ? and they were dispossest too , by some of the present complainants themselves : who first came in at the window , and now are turn'd out at the door . no less then a hundred and fifteen were ejected here in london , within the bills of mortality ( besides paul's and westminster ) and the rest of the kingdom throughout , was purged after that proportion . nor was it thought enough to sequester , unless they starv'd them too ; for they were not allow'd to take the employment , either of school-masters , or chaplains , but under heavy penalties . in south wales , the gospel was as well persecuted , as the ministry : the churches shut up , and the people let loose to the lusts and corruptions of unbridled nature . the only pretence of iustification that the reformers had , was that unchristian , and unmanly libel , white' 's centuries of scandalous ministers ; wherein , without any respect , either to truth , or modesty , they have exposed so many reverend names , to infamy , and dishonour , for the better colour of their own sacrilegious usurpations . but take this along with you , that loyalty in those days past for a punishable , and notorious scandal . n. c. these were acts of policy , and let statesmen answer for them . but to have men cast out of the church , because they will not subscribe , and declare , contrary to their consciences , is doubtless a most unconscionable severity . c. and what is it in the subsciption ( i beseech you ) that you stumble at ? as to the acknowledgment of his majesties supremacy , i suppose , you would not be thought to stick at that . and in matters of doctrine , you make profession to joyn with us : so that about the lawfulness of using the book of common-prayer , and your own submission to the use of it , is the only question . your exceptions likewise to the declarations seem to be very weakly grounded , unless you make a scruple of declaring your selves for the uniformity of the church , or for the peace of the civil government : in which cases you cannot fairly pretend to be trusted in either . but not to extravagate . you are against the imposing of subscriptions , and declarations , you say . n. c. i am against the very imposition it self , upon any terms ; but when they are prest upon grievous penalties ; they are utterly intolerable . c. and yet when the common-prayer was abolish't , there was a penalty , of five pound , for the first offence ; ten for the second ; and a years imprisonment , without bail or mainprize , for the third offence , upon any man that should use it . so that here was an interdiction of our way of worship upon a penalty ; and no notice taken of invading the liberty of our consciences . by the same ordinance , of august 23. 1645. was also commanded the exercise and order of the directory ; and that upon a forfeiture too : with a penalty , from five pound to fifty , upon any man , that should preach , write , or print any thing to the derogation of it . now here was rigor , you see , on both sides : but no clamor , upon the matter of conscience in this case neither . how many of our ministers were poyson'd in peter-house , and other prisons , either for worshipping according to their consciences , or refusing to act against them ! no man was admitted to his composition without swearing ; no man to live in the parliaments quarters without swearing . neither were we only debarr'd the common rights of subjects , and the benefits of society : but the comforts of religion were denied us ; and an anathema pronounced upon us for our fidelity . the general assembly in scotland ordain'd , that known compliers with the rebells , and such as procured protections from the enemy ; or kept correspondence , or intelligence with him , should be suspended from the lo●…d's supper , till they manifested their repentance before the congregation . [ ●…illespy's useful cases of conscience , pag. 19 , 20. ] his late majesty , in his large declaration of the affairs of scotland , pag. 199. tells you , that men were beaten , turn'd out of their livings , reviled , excommunicated , process'd , for not subscribing the covenant . and again , pa. 202. that there was an oath given at a communion at f●…fe , not to take the king's covenant , nor any other , but their own . now , hear the commissioners of the general assembly , iuly 25. 1648. his majestie 's concessions , and offers , from the isle of wight , are to be by the parliament declared unsatisfactory ; unless his majesty give assurance by solemn oath , under his hand , and seal , for settling religion according to the covenant ; before his r●…stitution to his royal power , but that i am loth to overcharge you , i could give you the history of the spiritting several persons of honour for slaves ; the sale of three or four score gentlemen to the barbadoes ; beside plunders , decimations , and infinite other outrages , both publique , and private . give me leave to mind you now a little●… of some few of your general provisions for the destruction of the king's party , and the extirpation of that family , and government to which providence has once again subjected you . a an ordinance for sequestration of delinquents estates . b delinquents disabled to bear any office , or have any vote in election of any major , &c. here 's estate , and legal freedom gone already : now follows banishment from one place , and confinement to another . c delinquents must be removed from london and westminster , and confined within five m●…es of their own dwelling . d correspondency with charles stuart , or his par●…y , prohibited , under pain of high treason ; and e death to any man , that shall attempt the revival of his glaim , or that shall be aiding , assisting , comforting , or abetting , unto any person endeavouring to set up the title of any of the issue●… of the late king. where were the able , holy , faithful , laborious , and truly peaceable preachers of the gospel , with the tender consciences you talk of , when these things were a doing ? truly , neither better nor worse , then up to the very ears , a great many of them , in the main action . some , preaching up the conscience of the war ; others , wheedling the city out of their money to maintain it ; and calling for more blood in prosecution of it . till in the conclusion , the king , and the government , fell in the quarrel : and the pulpits all this while at hand , to patronize the reformation . n. c. this ripping up of old stories , does but widen the breach , without doing any good at all . c. if you would not hear of these things again , you should not do them again . n. c. then it seems the whole must suffer for some particulars . c. no , not so . but neither must the whole go scot-free for some particulars . would you have me open my door to a troop of thieves , because there are four or five honest men in the company ? that there are divers conscientious , and well-minded men among the non-conformists , i make no question . but i am yet positive in this , that the non-conformists ; in conjunction , are in a direct conspiracy ; and that when they come once to agree in a publique complaint , it is no longer conscience , but faction . this by the by. — now to the matter before us ; i have given you a breviate of your own proceedings , in the very case of your present complaints . lay your hand upon your heart , and bethink your self , who are the persecutors . n. c. let the persecution rest where it will ; i am fully perswaded , that there is no settling of this kingdom in a state of security , peace , and plenty , without an indulgence , or toleration . sect . xvi . the non-conformists tell us , that liberty of conscience is the common interest of this kingdom : but reason , and experience tell us the contrary . c. that we may not spend our selves in repetition , cavil , or confusion ; take notice , that 't is the general cause of the non conformists , which is coming under d●…bate . for that toleration which the whole party desires , must needs be a toleration of the whole party : and that i oppose ; in confidence , that i have reason , and experience on my side . we have spoken already , as to the unlawfulness ; and somewhat likewise ; to the dangerous consequences of it : together with the unruly opinions , and practices of several of the pretenders to it . we are now to look a little further into it , with a more immediate regard to the common interest of the kingdom , which we may place in the concernments of religion , government , peace , and plenty . to begin with religion : i do not understand , how that which delights in unity , shall be advantaged by division , and fraction . n. c. as if there could be no unity of doctrine , without uniformity of discipline . the precept is ; one lord , one faith , one baptism : and not one way , one form of worship . c. i might tell you , that it is of ancient , and unreprovable practice ; for every national church to appoint its own platform of service , and ceremonies ; and to require obedience , and conformity to that model , and to those rites respectively , from all its members . but this i shall not insist upon . there is no precept ( you say ) for any one way , or form. but can you shew me , that an uniformity of service , and rituals is any where forbidden ? n. c. not in particular : but in the general prohibition of all uncommanded worship , pag. 26. c. the matter in short is this. either we have a rule in the gospel for the manner of our worship ; or we have none . if there be no way of commanded worship , left us , by christ , and his apostles ; and all uncommanded worship be ( as you say ) forbidden , there must be no appointed worship at all ; and then , every man is at liberty , not only to worship after what manner he pleases , but ( effectually ) to chuse , whether he 'l worship , or no : which brings in all sorts of heresies , and blasphemies ; and countenances even atheism it self . now , on the other hand ; if there be any particular manner of worship prescribed in the word of god ; from that particular manner , we must not presume to vary , by a toleration of any other way then that ; or of more , then one. besides , that it undermines the foundation of all communities , to deny the civil authority a right of interposing in such cases , as are neither commanded , nor forbidden , by god. let us next consider the probable effects of a toleration , in respect of the parties pretending to it . which are , either presbyterian ; or ( in a sense of contradistinction ) independent . the former are for a subordination in churches . the other for an independency : ( according to their denomination ) these are for gather'd congregations ; the other , for parochial . i will not trouble you with the argumentative part of the differences betwixt them ; about the subordination , or co-ordination of churches ; the redundance , or defect of church-officers ; the receptacle of the power of the keys , and the like : but nakedly , and briefly , shew you the kindness they have for one another ; the regards they have for christian charity , in the menage of the quarrel ; and then leave you your self to judge , what may be the event of such a toleration , as to religion . the sectaries ( says edwards in his gangraena ) agree with iulian the apostate , p. 54. ] they are libertines , and atheists , p. 185. ] unclean , incestuous , p. 187. ] drunkards , p. 190. ] sabbath-breakers , deceivers , p. 191. ] guilty of gross lying , slandering , iuggling , falsifying their words and promises : excessive pride , and boasting , p. 192. ] insufferable insolences , horrible affronts to authority , p. 194. ] there never was a more hypocritical , false , dissembling , cunning generation in england , then many of the grandees of those sectaries . — they encourage , protect , and cry up for saints , sons of belial , and the vilest of men , p. 240. gangraena's second part , 1646. — see now the other party doe as much for the presbyterians . the presbyterian government is anti-christian , tyrannical , lordly , cruel , a worse bondage then under the prel●…tes ; a bondage under task-masters , as the israelites in aegypt : a presumptu●…us , irregular consistory , which hath no ground in the word of god. barrow , p. 79. ] a vexatious , briery , thorny , persecuting pre●…ytery . [ pulpit incendiary , p. 26. ] f●…rmidable to states , and free kingdoms . [ mr. nye . ] the assembly is antichristian , romis●… , 〈◊〉 , the plague ▪ s , and p●…sts of the kingdom ; baal's priests . [ gangraena's second part , 230. ] the seed of god in this nation has had two capital enemies , the romish papacy , and the scotch presbytery . [ sterry's england's deliverance , p. 7. ] an anabaptist said , that he hoped to see heaven and earth on fire , before presbytery should be settled ; [ edwards his gangraena . ] barrow calls the consistorians , dangerous , and pestilent seducers ; ravening wolves , which come to us in sheeps cloathing . ] this is enough to shew you the mutual , and implacable enmity , and opposition of the two grand parties , which , you are now perswading your self , might be gratified , by a common indulgence . let me further mind you , that the strife ended not there neither , but proceeded to blood : and that , so soon , as they had master'd the government , in a combination , under the masque of reformation , and conscience ; they parted interests , and upon the very same pretext , engaged in a second war ; and fell foul , one upon the other . wherein they sufficiently manifested to the world , that they fought , not for forms , and ceremonies ; but for booty , and dominion . no less to the scandal of the religion of england , then to the ruine of the monarchy . n. c. you are not to stop my mouth with instances of tumults , and factions , in a peaceable plea for religion , and conscience . c. do not you know , that toleration is as good , as an issue in a government ? all the vicious humours in the whole body flow that way . but suppose it conscience ; are the dissenters ever to be reconciled ? shall we not have nem , and monstrous opinions propagated daily ? and will it not be every man's business , to advance the credit , and authority of his own party ? where is the bond of peace , in this exercise , and latitude of dissention ? the unity of the church , in this multiplicity of professions ? which is the true religion , among so many divided , and contradictory pretenses to it ? or rather ; is there any religion at all , where there is neither christian charity , stability of principles , reverence , or agreement , in god's worship ? n. c. i hope you will not deny the protestant interest to be the interest of the true religion : and undoubtedly , the bringing of the protestants into an union among themselves , is the advantage of every protestant state , ] and of protestancy it self . c. past all dispute ; and an uniformity of worship brings them into that union ; which is never to be attained , while the world endures , by a liberty of conscience . how was the protestant interest ( i beseech you ) united in the late dissolution of government ; when every man did that which was right in his own eyes ? examine the story well , and you will find reason to believe , that the church of rome has gain'd more upon us , since that unsettlement of ecclesiastical order , then perchance from the first hour of the reformation , even unto that very day . for liberty of conscience , did no less bring a civil war upon the protestant religion , then the pretended liberty of the subject did upon the state. it turned every man's hand against his brother . every man had a religi●…n to himself , and every man's conscience ( as i told you ) was his bible ; and we are still to presume , that like causes will produce like effects . it is also remarquable , that the lowdest , and boldest declamers against the orders of the church , proved likewise , the most pragmatical , and audacious invaders of the civil peace ; the antecedent schism serving only for a prologue to the ensuing sedition . n. c. this arraignment of their supposed principles , about government , may haply proceed upon mistake . there is reason to think , that the many late disputes , about prerogative , and liberty , are controversiae ortae , non primae ; that they had their rise from something else , which lies at the bottom . c. this is but peradventure i , peradventure no. for if a man may haply be in a mistake , he may haply too be in the right . i will grant ye likewise , that the disputes about prerogative , and liberty , had their rise from somewhat else , which lay at the bottom . that is to say ; it was not purity of religion , reformation of the liturgie , retrenching the exorbitant power of bishops , or scruple of conscience , ( as pretended ) that wrought the subversion of church , and state ; but it was the design , which lay at the bottom , of carrying on the great work of overturning the government , under countenance of that plausible imposture , and disguise . n. c. inclinations , and interests , more then speculative opinions , will be found to have born the sway , and caused those active motions , on the one hand , and the other . these dogmata , or problems about obedience , and government , do but little , where mens affections , and concernments do not give them spirit , and uigor . c. it is most certain , that problems draw no blood ; and we do not read , that ever any man's throat was cut , with a speculation , or a syllogism ; but yet , inclinations , and interests ( you allow ) may do much , towards mischief : so that , i have what i desire , if i am but able to make it out , that liberty of conscience will , most indubitably , beget strong inclinations in the people , to shake off the yoke of government ; and that they will not want specious appearances of interest so to do. first ; the servants of iesus christ ( as the non-conformists peculiarly stile themselves ) have this advantage of the subjects of temporal princes ; that they serve the better master : and the dignity of their spiritual profession supersedes the duty of their political allegeance . ( so often , as they shall think good , to stand upon that privilege ) by virtue of which prerogative , they do not only claim an exemption from the obligation , and reach of humane laws ; but a commission also , and authority , to reform those laws , ( in case of error , and corruption ) according to the standard of the gospel . now to this principle , and doctrine , do but add liberty of conscience ; and the people have law , and magistracy at their mercy already . for first ; they reckon themselves no further answerable either to the one , or to the other , then as they find them warranted in , and grounded upon the word of god. and secondly ; they may chuse whether or no , they will find any law , or magistrate , whatsoever , to be so warranted , or grounded ; and consequently , whether there shall be any government , or no. one man's conscience cannot allow this , or that injunction to be according to god's word : it may be lawful to another , but it is not so to him ; and hee calls for indulgence , and moderation . another man's conscience swears by the most high god , that it is point-blank against it ; and nothing will serve him , but utter extirpation . and whatsoever they call conscience , must pass for current . every man is to govern himself by his own opinion ; not by another bodies . it is no longer liberty of conscience , if a man shall be run down , and concluded , by prescription , authority , consent of fathers , scripture , reason , and the like , without being convinc'd . n. c. i thought you would have shewed me in what manner , or by what means liberty of conscience comes to turn the hearts , and interests of subjects against their superiors , as you said you would . c. a little patience , and i 'le be as good as my word . it has brought us to this pass , already , you see , that it has cast the government upon the good nature of the multitude , and made it purely dependent upon the breath of the people , whether it shall stand , or fall. so that ( in short ) the matter in question , falls under these two considerations . first ; whether a people , left to themselves , either to be under the restrient of laws , or not , will not rather agree to cast off a government , then to defend it . secondly ; whether they will not , likewise , find a very fair appearance of interest , and advantage , in so doing . the former , i think , will easily be granted , by any man that does but advise either with the common practises of the world , or with humane frailty : taking the world , either in individuals , or in parties . what says the artificer , the tradesman , the farmer ? why should we be put upon extremities of hard labour , course fare , rising early , and going to bed late ? ( and all little enough to keep our families from starving ) any more then such , and such ; that lie wallowing in ease , abundance , luxury , and riot ? but this we may thank the law for ; that has appropriated those possessions to particulars , which god almighty gave us in common . why should we be the drudges of the kingdom ? ( says the day-labourer ) the law is their enemy too , because it keeps them in awe , that they dare not steal . it is the same case , with traytors , felons , vagabonds , and all criminals . and so it is with factions , and associated parties ; we might set up this government , or this church ; and we , t'other , ( say they ) if it were not for those accursed laws , that make it death to endeavour such an alteration . this is a true , and naked accompt of the peoples thoughts , and reasonings , in the point of liberty , and obedience : and a sufficient proof of their inclination ( not against this , or that ; but ) against any establishment : it being the main end of government , to secure the community against the encroachments , and attempts of particulars : though to the very great damage , and ruine , ( many times ) of private persons , and parties . if you be satisfied now , that the people do not naturally love government , you need not doubt but they will judge it their interest to remove it : every male-content , enterteining himself with hopes of mending his condition upon the change. but alas ! this is not an undertaking for single persons , small parties , or petty factions , by themselves apart ; but some common medium must be found out , for the uniting of them all ; which , indeed , is amply provided for , in the project of liberty of conscience : and does not only facilitate the work , by drawing the disaffected into a body ; but it does also countenance , and encourage it , by authorising the separation . n. c. but to me , it seems , on the contrary , that an indulgence would set the peoples minds at liberty from fears and contrivances , for the avoidance of impendent dangers ; and encourage them to engage the utmost of their endeavours and abilities , in the businesses of peace , and security . ] c. as to the security , and peace of the publique , if enough be not already said , you may repair to the history of our late broils , for the rest : where you will also find the condition of particulars , to have been every jote as distracted , and unquiet ( in proportion ) as that of the government . you are to expect schisms in corporations , companies , families ; as well as in religious congregations : divisions , as well betwixt parents , and children ; masters , and servants ; as betwixt rulers , and subjects : feuds betwixt man , and wife ; betwixt brethren , kinred , friends ; and all these differences , variously influenced , according to the benignity , or malignity of their divided opinions . nor will it be any wonder , ( upon admittance of this liberty ) to have as many religions in a house , as persons : where the husband draws one way , the wife , another ; and the rest of the family have their ways by themselves , too . and this goes on , ( to the utter extermination of order , duty , and quiet ) till they have throughly wearied themselves , with tossing , and tumbling from one sect , or profession , to another . and then , when they are at their wits end , they commonly take up in the church of rome , with an implicite faith , in the conclusion . now if what i have said , may be of force sufficient to prove , that liberty of conscience , is destructive , both of religion , and government ; and of the peace of the kingdom , as well private , as publique . i cannot see how it should advance us , ( as is earnestly suggested ) in the business of trade , and plenty . n. c. we shall never have a flourishing trade without it : because the pressure in these things falls generally more upon the trading sort of men , then any in the nation . we may see it in the great city , and in all corporations : it makes many give over trading , and retire ; it makes others remove into holland , and other forreign parts ; as it did heretofore from norwich , to the irrecoverable prejudice of our cloathing trade , upon the like occasion ; and it certainly prevents all protestant strangers to come to live , and trade among us . c. the pressure ( you say ) falls most upon traders : i answer , that you begin with a non constat ; for the thing it self does not appear . and then , you make traders more scrupulous then the rest of the nation , who are not generally understood to be more conscientious ; as having divers temptations in the way of their employments , to strein a point of conscience now and then ; and they are but men , as well as their neighbours . if your observation be right ; we may thank the nonconforming ministers , who have had the handling of them . your urging , that want of liberty makes many give over trading , and retire , does not agree with their observation , that place their wonder on the other side , that so many hold ; considering the circumstances of a long , and expensive war with the french , and dutch. ( the most expensive that ever this kingdom undertook ) and two of the most dreadful , and destroying iudgments that ever almighty god laid upon this nation , i. e. pestilence , and fire , one upon the neck of another . you object , the removal of others into holland , as formerly . indeed it is not for the credit of your cause to mind us of those that formerly left us . take the peins to read bayly's disswasive , pa. 75. and there you shall see what work they made in holland : even such , that peters himself was scandalized at it ; quitted his congregation , and went to new-england . bridg , sympson , and ward , renounc'd their english ordination , and took ordination again from the people . the people , after this , deposed mr. ward ; and the schism betwixt sympson's church , and bridg his , was so fierce , that their ministers were fain to quit their stations ; and the dutch magistrate forc'd to interpose the civil authority to quiet them . in new england , their humour , and behaviour not much better ( according to the report of the same author , pag. 60 , 61. ) of forty thousand souls , not a third part would be of any church ; and such heresies started , as a man would tremble to recite . if only such as these forsake us , the land has a good riddance . further ; if it was to the prejudice of our cloathing trade , ( this separation ) who can help it ? it was their fault to betray the interest of their country , by teaching the mystery to forreigners ; but no blame at all can be reflected upon the government , for refusing toleration to such lawless , and unruly libertines . now , as to the hindring of protestant strangers from coming over to us , and trading with us , it is a clear mistake , to imagine the church of england to be such a bugbear to those of the reformation abroad , as is pretended . ( which shall hereafter be made appear ) it is not the act of uniformity that hinders strangers , but the want of an act of endenisation ; which , perchance , the wisdom of future times will find convenient , for the supply , and repair of that depopulation which is brought upon us by our colonies . but to come to an issue . how was it with trade , when conscience took the full swinge ? it brought on a war ; and so it must again , or a standing army to prevent it . how many families were ruin'd , on the one side , with pure benevolence to the cause , in contributions , and enterteinments to the devourers of widows houses , and the captivaters of silly women ? and on the other side , as many were undone with taxes , and plunder . how went trading on , when all business was neglected , but gallopping up and down to lectures , to hear news , and sedition ? when prentices robb'd their masters , and took sanctuary in the service ? when publique faith was a tradesmans best security ; and the whole nation held life , and estate , at the good pleasure of a close committee ? n. c. let liberty of conscience be once fitly given , and the root of all mens hopes , and pretensions , that desire publique mischief , is pull'd up . c. fitly , will be well indeed ; but ( with your favour ) what is the meaning of fitly ? how shall we agree upon the dos ? unless you intend , that the magistrate is to continue giving , till the subject shall leave asking . and that must be : for , if ever he thinks of holding his hand sooner , he had better have done nothing . n. c. but what colour will there be for any further exception ? c. the very same they have now . new scruples will bolt new demands : and beside ; i should be glad if you would furnish me with any one instance , where the non-conformists were ever the better for indulgence . sect . xvii . this kingdom has been still the worse for indulging the non-conformists , and the party never the better . which evinces , that uniformity is the true interest of this government , and not toleration . c. upon queen elizabeth's coming to the crown , those non-conformists , that fled , in queen mary's days , and separating from the english congregation at francfort , went off to geneva , came back again for england : and with their libels , clamours , private consultations , and meetings , gave trouble enough to the government for the ten first years of her majesties reign ; who was , at that time , so beset , with the roman catholiques , on the one hand ; and the puritans , on the other , that she thought it well , upon that pinch , to save her self , without exercising rigor , and severity upon either party . this impunity gave them the confidence , a while after , to declare themselves for the geneva discipline , and ( in the fourteenth of her reign ) by an audacious pamphlet ( under the title of an admonition ) to press the parliament to a reformation . the principal abetters of this libel were discover'd , and clapt up ; and soon after , out comes a second admonition ; telling the parliament , in plain english , that , if authority would not , they must set it up themselves . and it was not long , ere they were as good as their words , by erecting several formal presbyteries up and down the kingdom . ( as appeared , upon undeniable proof , and confession of parties to the combination ) they had their synods ; their classical , and provincial conferences ; pronounc'd their decrees : concurring in the main against bishops , ceremonies , and common prayer . they had their agents throughout the kingdom , upon a strict survey of the value of every benefice ; the number of parishioners ; their quality , manner of life , and conversation . their book of discipline was long upon the anvile ; but at length , ( about 1586. ) it was finished , communicated , and subscribed : with a promise , to observe it themselves , and to use all lawful , and convenient means to further , and advance it . in conclusion ; the whole matter came to be detected ; cartwright , snape , and several of the ringleaders , were examin'd , and committed : whereupon , coppinger , arthington , hacket , wigginton , &c. entred into a conspiracy for their deliverance ; and to have the blood of every man that should dare to give his vote against them , in the star-chamber ; nay , to depose the queen her self , in case of her refusal to promote the reformation . and all this , not without the privity , and tacit approbation of the most considerable ministers of the party . this was the blessed fruit of lenity , and forbearance under queen elizabeth ; the law iustled out by a faction ; a plot upon the life of the queen , and counsel , carried on , under colour of religion , and reformation . n. c. still i perceive , you pick out the foulest cases , and instances you can lay hold on , to match with ours . c. is it not rather your misfortune , to write after the foulest copies ? but to the business : what would you say , if his majesty now in being , had queen elizabeth's game to play ? apprehensions of his life , from iesuits , both protestant , and papist ? the whole generation of the non-conformists united against his person , and government , as well in iudgment , as in faction ? ( which are here divided into a thousand disagreements ) you would ( beyond all peradventure ) give the government for lost , without an immediate recourse to an act of indulgence , and accommodation , to preserve it . but the policy of those times made choice rather of another course ; some were imprison'd ; others , put to death ; according to the demerit of the offence . n. c. are you for punishing inconformity with death then ? c. no , by no means ; hacket , you know , was not put to death for inconformity , but for treason . and pray let me give you a brief of his story , as cambden delivers it . he was born at oundle in northamptonshire ; a poor , insolent , ill-natured , and illiterate fellow . he married a widow , spent her fortune in riot ; and when he had nothing else to trust to , betook himself to the imposture of religion , and an affectation of the geneva discipline : so far ingratiating himself with several of the prime zealots of that profession , that they did him the honour to make him of their council , in their grand design , ( to the execution whereof , he also pretended an extraordinary call , and commission from above ) he was ( in conclusion ) apprehended , charged with treason , found guilty , condemn'd , and executed . now to shew you the devil himself , in the shape of an angel of light , this hacket , as he was upon the hurdle , in the way to his execution , never left calling upon almighty god , with hideous outcries : and now behold ( says he ) the heavens are open , and the son of the most high coming down to deliver me . when he was come to the place of execution , he prosecuted his blaspemies , with more horrid , and furious exclamations : [ heavenly , and almighty god ; thou that art the alpha , and omega ; lord of lords , and king of kings ; thou eternal god ; that knowest me to be the true jehovah , that thou hast sent ; shew some miracle from heaven , for the conversion of these infidels ; and save me from my enemies ; or if thou dost not , i 'le set the heavens on fire , and with these very hands cast thee out of thy throne . i should have scrupled the bare recital of these blasphemies , were it not for the desire i have , to possess you with a due consideration of those execrable abuses , that are frequently imposed upon the world , under the visor of religion . the condition of the kingdom was doubtless very sad , that had such turbulent spirits to deal withal ; and yet we find , that by one severe law ( of the 35th of the queen's reign ) her majesty gave her self , and her people , quiet , as to that particular , for the whole remainder of her life . the penalties ( as i remember ) were these ▪ imprisonment without bail or main-prize , for being present at unla●…ul conve●…ricles ; the offender to be discharged , if within three months he made his open submission , and acknowledgment , in the form by the said statute appointed . but in case of recusancy to conform within that time , he was required to abjure the realm . and in case of refusing to abjure ; or of not departing within a limited lime ; or of returning without licence , to be proceeded against as a felon , without benefit of clergy . n. c. and yet you see , for all your new-modelling of corporations ; prohibiting of conventicles , removing non-conformists five miles from the place of their usual supports , and influences : nevertheless , the state ecclesiastical hath advanced little in the esteem , acceptance , or acquiescence of the people . c. this is very true ; and if other laws for the prevention of capital crimes , were no better executed , then that for uniformity , your argument would lie as fair every jot , for the toleration of murder , as it does now for schism . but however , it succeeded well with queen elizabeth ; and not worse with king iames , as appears by the story . his majesty ( under twelve years old ) took the government of scotland into his hand . the year following , the ministers presented a form of church-policy , to the parliament then sitting ; and upon the debate , matters were agreed , as far as possible , without prejudice to the king's authority , and the liberty of the subject : and these points were either referr'd to further consideration , or pass'd over in silence . the assembly took snuff at this d●…latory way of proceeding , and , without more adoe , pass'd a vote , for doing their own business , without asking the parliament leave . they began with the arch-bishop of glasgow : and presently fell upon the whole order , requiring them to renounce their temporal titles , their civil iurisdiction ; to decline their votes in parliament , and to submit themselves to a retrenchment of their episcopal revenues . their next step , was the demolishing of the cathedral at glasgow : but when the quarriers were just entring upon the work , the tradesmen of the town , in an uproar , threaten'd the undertake●…s , and so they quitted it : but not without a complaint to the council , of the insolence of the mutineers ; which came to this issue , his majesty justifi'd the tradesmen , and forbad the ministers any further meddling in the destroying of churches . and this was all the cheque they had for so lewd an outrage . in 1579 , the king wrote to the ministers , not to prejudge the decisions of the parliament , then approaching , by the conclusions of their assembly ; and to forbear the practice of any innovations , till their meeting . whereupon , instead of complying , they proceeded to a positive resolution of adhering to their former conclusions ; question'd the arch-bishop of st. andrews , for giving his voice in parliament ; and soon after , by an act of assembly , they commanded the bishops , under pain of excommunication , not to exercise the office of pastors , in any sort whatsoever , without licence from the general assembly ; and further directing , the patrimony of the church to be so disposed of , as they should judg reasonable at their next convention : thus , by degrees , growing bolder and bolder , upon forbearance . the particulars of their usurpations would be too tedious ; i could otherwise tell you of their iustification of the treasonous seizure of the king at ruthuen ; their propositions , and compleints in 1583 , with the king 's gentle return ; their covenants , and seditious practices , even to the encouraging ; and avowing of open rebellion . and still the more plyant , and easie his majesty was , the more contumacious , and untractable were these people . in the end ; what with the tumult at edinburgh , in 1596 ; and the ministers band of confederacy , immediately upon it ; the king was forced upon a resolution of rigor , and severity ; and ( as spotswood observes ) he received little or no opposition thereafter . at his majesties entry upon the government of england , the ceremonies of his first reception , and inauguration were scarce over , but he was assaulted with petitions , and importunities about the reformation of the government , and liturgie of the church : in the name of thousands of godly , learned , and conscientious men , that could not conform : whereupon , a proclamation was issued for a conference to be held at hampton-court , in ianuary , 1604. so many bishops , and deans appointed for the church ; and for the petitioners , there appeared , dr. reynolds , dr. sparkes , mr. knewstubb , and mr. chadderton . the points in controversie , were particularly , and solemnly debated ; and in the end , such satisfaction given even to the plaintiffs themselves , that they all promis'd obedience ; and dr. sparkes became , afterward , an advocate for the orders of the church , and wrote a treatise for conformity . knewstubb indeed boggled a little , and desired to know , how far an ordinance of the church was binding , without offence to christian liberty ? upon which general question , the king turn'd short , and answer'd him ; le roy●…s ' avisera : let us have no more of those questions , how far you are bound to obey , what the church has once ordeined : but conform at your peril . while the business was fresh , they made a faint pretense of appealing to another conference : but upon second thoughts , they let it totally fall , and never gave the king any further trouble upon that subject . thus far , you see , the government has been preserv'd by strictness of order , and uniformity . we come now to those fatalities of tenderness , and relaxation that destroy'd us . n. c. you never consider , that the non-conformists are more numerous , and powerful now then formerly they were , by many degrees : and that the dissenters cause has got ground upon the church-interest , ever since . but follow your discourse . c. in the first of the late king ; was exhibited , in parliament , a petition , ( among other matters ) for the propagation of the gospel , and the restoring of silenc'd ministers ; to which , his majesty , return'd a gracious , and yielding answer , which produc'd a remonstrance of miscarriages in government ; insomuch , that his majesty was forced to dissolve that parliament . in the second year of his reign ; he call'd another parliament , which pursu'd the same method , and went a little higher then the former : so that the king was fain to dissolve that too . in the year following ; the king call'd another ; and upon their meeting , went somewhat a quicker way to work with them : minding them , in a short , and pertinent speech , of their past failings ; advising them to steer a more peaceable course for the future , and not to put him upon extremities , to provide for the safety of his people . this change of stile , and resolution , in his majesty , drew immediately from the commons , a grant of five subsidies . the king was too generous , and candid to take that present for a bait ; and relapsing into his former temper of charity , and softness , was presently accosted with the petition of right ; which , after some difficulty , and demur , his majesty passes : and after this , followed a petition , remonstrance , and protestation , which put an end also to that convention . look now a little into the scotch affairs , and observe the growth of the non-conformists demands , from one thing to another ; till in the end , by virtue of what the king granted them , they possest themselves of all the rest. in their tumults ( says his majesty ) they complein'd only of the service book . in their petition exhibited to the counsel ; they complein'd of the service-book , and canons . in their covenant they complein of , and abjure the five articles of perth . ( although establish't , first by a general assembly , and then by parliament ) after this , they complein of the high commission ; and then , of prelates sitting in civil judicatories . hereupon , his majesty commissions marquis hamilton , with full power , and authority , to conclude , and determine all such things as should be found for the good , quietness , and peace of that kingdom : directing him also to take the mildest course that might be , for the calming of those commotions . and what effect had this peaceable inclination of his majesty , upon the covenanters , but to blow them up into more seditious , and bolder practises , against the king's authority , and the publique peace ? they pursue their demands , and clamour for a free general assembly , and a parliament . his majesty gives them all their askings : indicts a free general assembly , and a parliament ; disch●…rges the service-book , the canons ; high-commission ; the ur●…ing of the five articles of perth : commands the subscribing of the confession of faith , and the band thereto annexed ; in the very form which they pretended to impose ; and offers them an act of indemnity for what was past . in all which condescentions , the king's patience , and mercy only served to heighten , and confirm those men in their undertaking , and to expose his royal dignity , to contempt . in the conclusion , the king had so far gratified their importunities , that they had nothing left to quarrel upon , but his majesties refusal to abolish episcopacy , and to admit the authority of their lay-elders . from hence , they brake out into open rebellion ; and ( when the king had them directly at his mercy ) upon the interview of the two armies near berwick , such was his tenderness , that upon their supplication for a treaty , he trusted them again , and concluded a pacification ; whereof the covenanters observ'd not so much as one article . upon his return to london , his majesty ( as is elswhere observed ) passes the triennial bill ; abolishes the star-chamber , and high commission court : passes an act for the continuance of the parliament . not to insist upon the several other concessions , concerning ship-money , forests , and stannary courts ; tunnage and poundage , knighthood , &c. now in requital of these benefits , the faction claps up , and prosecutes his majesties friends ; prefers , and enlarges his enemies ; rewards the scots ; entertains their commissioners ; votes them their dear brethren , for invading us ; calls in all books , and proclamations against them . they take away the bishops votes ; impose a protestation upon the people ; take away the earl of strafford's life ; charge twelve of the bishops with treason ; declare the king's proclamations to be false , scandalous , and illegal ; keep his majesty out of his own towns ; and seize his arms , and ammunition . they present him with nineteen propositions for the resignation of his royal authority . they vote a general , and raise an army against him . they usurp the power of the militia , and give the king battel ; levy moneys ; and declare the queen guilty of treason . after all these usurpations upon the civil power , they are put to 't to bring the cause of religion once again upon the stage : they enter into a covenant ; and call in the scots again ; they abolish the common-prayer ; secure the person of the king ; share the revenues of the church , and crown . they sequester , banish , and imprison his majesties adherents ; and in the conclusion , sell , depose , and murder their soveraign . this was the fruit of that pious , and unfortunate prince his clemency , and indulgence . now to bring the instance home to the present times : what could be more pious , gracious , or obliging , then his majesties declaration concerning ecclesiastical affairs , in favour of the non-conformists ? all that was possible for the king to do , in consistence with conscience , honour , and the peace of his dominions , his majesty has therein given them a frank assurance of . ( with their lives , and estates , over and above , in the act of oblivion ) and are they one jote the quieter for all this ? no , but the worse : for no sooner was the king's tenderness , in that particular , made publique , but the generality ( even of those that had lately entred into a regular , and dutiful compliance with the orders of the church ) started into a new revolt : which proves sufficiently , the benefit , and necessity of a strict rule , and the hazzard of a toleration : for rather then abide the penalty of the act , they could conform ; but upon the least glimpse of a dispensation , they rel●…pse into a schism . neither do i find , that they were less troublesom , before the act of uniformity , when they preach'd at randome , then they have been since ; nor , to say the truth , that they have much more cause of compleint , now , then they had then. for what are they the worse , for a penalty , that is never executed ? but if you will have a true measure of their moderation , and good nature : i pray'e take notice of their proceedings upon his majesties commission , for the review of the book of common-prayer . we will appoint ( says his majesty , in his declaration concerning ecclesiastical affairs ) an equal number of learned divines of both perswasions , to review the * same , and to make such alterations as shall be thought most necessary . so that the alterations were to be agreed upon by both parties , and found likewise to be necessary . now instead of alterations , joyntly agreed upon , they publish a complete liturgy of their own ; indeed a new directory ; but under the title of the reformation of the liturgie . ( which in all their books , signifies abolition ) give me the favour , next , to observe upon some of their necessary alterations . they have turn'd wedded wife , into married . doest thou believe ? into do you believe ? all this i stedfastly believe , into all this i unfeignedly believe . these are some of the important scruples , that are cast into the balance , against the unity of the church , and the peace of the kingdom . what is this , but to make sport with authority , and conscience ? laws must be suspended ; princes , vilified and importun'd ; because , forsooth , the godly party may not be govern'd by laws of their own making : nay , by words of their own chusing too ; so that we are like to have a schism , for syllables , as well as for ceremonies . for what is the difference betwixt wedded , and married , but that the one wears the stamp of the law-makers , and the other , of the law-menders ? is it not now evident , that they are the worse for good usage ? and that they have ever been so ? you see the effects of keeping to a rule , in queen elizabeth , and king iames : and we have since felt , to our cost , the effects of a relaxation : which abundantly satisfies me , that uniformity is the true interest of this government , and not toleration . n. c. uniformity is the interest of this kingdom , as it is of any other , where there is any fair possibility of procuring it . but the principles of dissent have taken such root in this land , that you may as well think of depopulating the nation , as of uniting it , upon the points in question . c. but i am otherwise perswaded ; and that the party of non-conformists is not so considerable , as you make it . sect . xviii . the party of scrupulous , and conscientious non-conformists , is neither numerous , nor dangerous . c. i am apt to believe that party is not so numerous as you represent it , for many reasons , first ; i take english mens consciences , and their neighbours , to be much of a make : and i do not find the subject of our controversie , to be made matter of conscience , by any other sort of christians whatsoever , out of his majesties dominions . n. c. 't is well we have good authority to the contrary . the preface to the directory assures us , that the liturgy used in the church of england , hath proved an offence , not only to the godly at home ; but also to the reformed churches abroad . and smectymnuus tells the parliament , ( pag. 10. ) that there is such a vast difference between it , and the liturgies of all other reformed churches as that it keeps them at a distance from us . c. we 'l talk of that anon ; and in the mean time ( with your good leave ) pursue what we have now before us . another thing that peswades me the conscientious number of dissenters cannot be very great , is this. the law has made an ample provision for their relief : leaving every houshold , with four more , at liberty to worship according to their own way . so that the laity has no pretense of compleint ; especially , those that plead for the ordination of their own ministers , and maintein , that seven persons make a full , ministerial , and completely organiz'd church . a man might make an exception to your accompt too , upon the score of old reckonings ; for you have ever had the faculty of multiplication . your thousands at hampton-court , came to a matter of nine and forty : and we remember very well , your old way of personating petitions , from multitudes of the godly , and well-affected , in both city , and country ; when , effectually , the poor innocent papers never travell'd farther , then from the close committee , to the lobby . n. c. if you will not credit report , believe your eyes . do you not find our meetings thronged , and many of your churches empty ? c. somewhat , of both , i must confess : but yet i am likewise inform'd , that you shew divers of these meetings , as peters did his rings , and bodkins , at several places , several times over and over , to make a noise , ond increase the reputation of your party . to contract the discourse . there is a loud clamour , and the ministers make it . and these too , that stickle in the cause , none of the most conscientious neither , unless they have a gospel we never heard of ; to iustifie disobedience in themselves ; the provoking of it in others ; the disturbing of the publique peace , and the sowing of dissention betwixt prince , and people : which is manifestly the scope of their writings , and designs . n. c. that undertaking goes somewhat too far , to pronounce upon their designs . do you pretend to know their hearts then ? c. yes ; and with very good authority , if a man may be allow'd to judge what reasonable men aim at , from deliberate words , and actions , that lead naturally , to such and such certain ends. and this humour ( i tell ye ) of aspersing the government , and teizing the multitude , runs through all their papers . i durst appeal to your own soul , whether you your self can imagine , that a twentieth part of the present plaintiffs in matter of conscience , are truly acted , and possest with that scrupulosity they pretend to . alas ! alas ! you talk of conscience : 't is not what every man thinks , or says , that is presently conscience . we are impos'd upon , by phansie , artifice , or delusion . some deceive themselves , and others cousen us. in one word ; whatsoever is not of conscience , in this medly , is faction : and undoubtedly , the conscientious party has but a slender share in the mixture . as that party is not numerous , so neither is it dangerous : upon a principle of honesty , and religion . no man of conscience , can either desire to embroyl the kingdom , or expect to be the better for 't . but still have a care how ye take every thing for gold , that glisters . conscience was the subject of the last quarrel ; religion , the pretext ; popery the bug-bear ; and the issue of it was dreadful . consider with your selves ; you have many of the same persons to lead you on ; and they have the very same matter too , to work upon . you meant no hurt to the last king , you say ; and yet you ruin'd him : you may perchance intend as little harm to this , and yet do him as much . and what amends is it , when the government is laid again in dust , and desolation , to cry , you were overseen ? if you had thought it should ever have come to this , you would have cut off your hands , or tongues ; and i know not what . look back ; and tremble at the course you are now upon ; for you are , questionless , in the very track of the late rebellion . and one may , without breach of charity , conclude , that no man that was an active instrument in the last war , can acquit himself of a most prodigious impiety , and ingratitude , in reviving , and prosecuting the same interest , and method now against the son , by which , he notoriously contributed toward the death of the father . sect . xix . the non-conformists appeal , from the government , and discipline of the church of england , to the judgment , and practise of the reformed churches beyond the seas ; examined , and submitted to censure . c. it is observable , that throughout the whole quarrel against the orders , and government of the church of england , the non-conformists still fly for countenance to the iudgment of the reformed churches , abroad : and so likewise in the question of toleration , they insist much upon the practise , and tenderness of other churches : as if the ecclesiastical state of this kingdom , were as singular , for tyranny , and corruption , as , in truth , the litigants themselves are for contumacy , and disobedience . in the answer of the two houses to the scots declaration , 164●… . this government , by arch-bishops , bishops , &c. is declared to be evil , justly offensive , and burdensom to the kingdom ; a great impediment to the reformation , and growth of religion : and resolved it is , that it shall be taken away : with a regard to the introducing of another government , more apt to procure an union , with the church of scotland , and other reformed churches abroad . and the ministers , in the petition for peace , sing the same note too : if men ( say they ) must be cast out of the church , and ministry , because they are not wiser then the pastors of most of the reformed churches , &c. as who should say ; the church of england is the only protestant church in the christian world , that pretends to this way of proceeding ; and the protestants abroad , are all of the non-conformists side . let this matter be fairly examin'd , i beseech you , and we shall quickly see where the fault lies . in the first place ; what is the judgment of the reformed churches abroad , touching the english episcopacy ? n. c. you may read their , iudgments in their practises ; or 't is but looking into the reformation , in france , holland , and the neighbourhood , and you may resolve your self , in that point . c. truly i find nothing at all to your advantage , which way soever i look ; luther himself distinguishes betwixt popish tyrants , and true bishops , and professes to condemn them as popish , not as bishops . the authors of the augustane confession profess ; that they would willingly preserve the ecclesiastical , and canonical politie , if the bishops would cease to tyrannize over their churches . bucer declares himself wholly , for bishops , and metropolitans : and melancthon to luther ; you would not imagine ( says he ) how some people are nettled , to see church-polity restor'd : as if it were the romish sovereignty again . ita de regno suo , non de evangelio , dimicant socii nostri . as if the quarrel were dominion , not religion . calvin acknowledges , that the ancient government , by arch-bishops , and bishops ; and the nicene constitution of patriarchs , was for orders sake , and good government . and delivers himself to cardinal sadolet , with an anathema upon the opposers of that hierarchy , which submits it self to jesus christ. zanchie ( the compiler of the gallican confession ) observes a change of name , rather then of office , throughout most of the german churches : as super-intendents , and general-super intendents , in the place of bishops , and arch-bishops : acknowledging that by the consent of histories , counsels , and the ancient fathers , those orders have been generally allowed by all christian societies . where they are in exercise , let them continue ; and where , by the iniquity of the times , they have been abolish'd , they ought to be restor'd . beza ( the rigid successor of calvin ) in excuse to the arch-bishop of canterbury , for meddling beyond his sphere : — we do not charge ( says he ) all arch-bishops , and bishops , with tyranny . — the church of england hath offorded many learned men , and many glorious martyrs of that function . if that authority be there still , may a perpetual blessing go along with it . this , in the name of the whole church of geneva , and addressed , to the primate of all england . totius angliae primati . saravia , arguing for the hierarchy out of the apostles canons , beza returns him this answer . this is no more , then what we wish might be restor'd to all churches . [ quid aliud hic statuitur , quam quod in omnibus locis , ecclesiis restitutum cupimus ? the three kingdoms of swede , denmark , and norway ( as mr. durell observes ) retein the order still , of bishops , and arch-bishops . in the protestant cantons of switzerland , there is also a subordination of ministers . and so in the palatinate ; in hessen ; the duke of brandenburgh's territories ; anhalt , bremen , poland , lithuania , &c. come we now into france , holland , and geneva . and first hear mr. du bosc of the reformed church of caen. well-ordered episcopacy hath most important , and considerable utilities , which cannot be found in the presbyterian discipline . mr. gaches , one of the ministers of charenton . the best men in our churches ( says he ) have honour'd the prelates of england . — the name of schism may do more harm to the church in one year ; then the exc●…ss of episcopal authority can do in an age. and again : sin hath brought in the necessity of government ; and the failings of ministers make the order of bishops necessary . mr. le moyn , of rouen , pronounces it to be want of prudence , and charity , if any seek the ruine of bishops . [ i trust that his majesty will be sure to re-establish the authority of the english church , and use his power for a perfect re-union of all the reformed churches ; which that be may effect , his majesty must preserve his bishops . i hold it impossible ( says mr. gayon of bourdeaux ) that england can ever be quiet , and flourish , but under the episcopal government . in holland , bogermannus , ( the president of the synod at dort ) upon a suggestion from the bishop of landaff , how fit a remedy episcopacy would be for the suppression of heresies , and schism , made this reply ; domine , non sumus adeò foelices ] we are not so happy , my lord. and for geneva , we have the voices of the principals of that church also , for the authority , and advantage of episcopal government . so that if you be no better seconded against our ceremonies , then you are against our bishops , you have the whole stream of protestant divines against you . this is according to what i have formerly had occasion to deliver , upon this subject . n. c. we do dissent , upon just reasons , from the ecclessastical hierarchy , 〈◊〉 prelacy , ( disclaimed in covenant ) as it was stated , and exercised in these kingdoms ; yet do 〈◊〉 , nor ever did renounce the true , ancient , primitive episcopacy , as it was balanced , or menaged by a due commixtion of presbyters therewith . c. we are not here to debate the qualifications , and limits of the episcopacy you pretend to : but to proceed , having made it appear , that the hierarchy , which , ( under colour of reduction , or commixtion ) you formerly rooted out , and are now again undermining ; is that very hierarchy , which you have now heard reverenced , and recommended by so many venerable testimonies . or , if after all this , you can but produce one publick act of any protestant church , beyond the seas , in favour of your claim , do it ; and save your party the credit , of not being single , and particular in your schism . what have you next to say against our ceremonies ? n. c. all the best reformed churches of christ , ( who only are competent iudges in this case , and to whose iudgment , and example , we ought rather to conform our selves , in ceremonies , then to the synagague of anti-christ ) do esteem those ceremonies , needless , inexpedient , and fit to be abolished : how the churches of other countries approve of them , may appear sufficiently by this , that they have banished the use of them out of their assemblies . c. are they only needless , inexpedient , and fit to be abolish'd then ? i thought you would have found them absolutely unlawful , idolatrous , and upon pein of damnation , not to be reteined . according to this measure , what will become of the whole frame of our government , if it shall take you in the head , to say the same thing of every law , and constitution of the land ? ceremonies will not down with you , because they are needless , inexpedient , &c. i beseech you , shew me the needfulness of killing , and plundring , or the expedience of dissolving publique laws , and depopulating kingdoms : and yet these are matters you can swallow , even without chewing . needless ? and inexpedient ? so●…ly , i beseech you ; you are for teaching your governours more wit , as well as more religion , and conscience . n. c. ●…eep to your text i pray'e ; for we are not now upon the lawfulness of the english ceremonies ; but upon an enquiry , what enterteinment they receive in the judgment , and practise of other reformed churches : without engaging our selves in any other consideration of their reason , and convenience . i say , they are banish'd out of their assemblies , and you are at liberty ( if you can ) to prove the contrary . c. let us first see how far we agree upon the allowance of any ceremonies at all , and where to place the right , and authority of imposing them . the church of england thinks it convenient , that every country should use such ceremonies as they shall think best , to the setting forth of god's honour , and glory , &c. which is according to the sense of other reformed churches , as appears by their several confessions . with us agrees , first , the church of helvetia . [ churches have always used their liberty in rites , as being things indifferent . which we also do at this day . that of bohemia likewise : [ humane traditions . and ceremonies , brought in by a good custom , are with an uniform consent to be reteined in the ecclesiastical assemblies of christian people , at the common service of god. the gallican ; [ every place may have their peculiar constitutions , as it shall seem meet for them . the belgique ; [ we receive those laws that are fit , either to cherish or maintein concord , or to keep us in the obedience of god. that of auspurgh ; [ ecclesiastical rites , which are ordein'd by man's authority , and tend to quietness , and good order in the church , are to be observed . that of saxony ; [ for order sake , there must be some decent , and seemly ceremonies . that of swethland ; sueh traditions of men , as agree with the scriptures , and were ordeined for good manners . and the profit of men , are worthily to be accounted rather of god then of man. n. c. the question is not , about an agreement in ceremonies that may be exercised without offence , either to god , or man ; ( according to your instances ) but about their liking , or dislike , of those in practise among us : as the surplice ; kneeling at the communion ; the cross in baptism , and the like . c. as to the surplice ; mr. durell tells you , that the churches that conform to the confession of augsburgh , have the very same ceremonies with the church of england : and surplices in many places . and further ; that a national assembly at charenton , anno 1631. hath declared , that there is neither idolatry , nor superstition in that worship . the protestant ministers also in bohemia , lithuania , prussia , make no scruple at all of preaching in surplices , whensoever they are called upon to preach where surplices are used . nay , calvin himself , does not approve of hooper ' s violent inconformity in that point . [ de pileo , & veste linea , maluissem ( ut illa etiam non probem ) non usque adeo ipsum pugnare : idque nuper suadebam . and let mr. baxter pin the basket. some decent garment is necessary ; either the magistrate , or minister himself , or the associated pastors must determine what . if the magistrate or synod tie all to one habit , ( suppose it indeoent ) yet this is but an imprudent use of power , and the thing it self being lawful , i would obey , and use that garment . n. c. you only make mention , where it has been used , and permitted ; but you take no notice where it has been rejected . and then the personal authorities you cite , in favour of it , declare their iudgments to be still against it . c. but only so against it , as not to allow of a separation , upon that scruple . now whereas you object the refusal , or rejection of it , elsewhere : it does not follow , that every church disallows , what it does not practise : and it shall content me , to find the practise of so many churches for us , and none , against us . as to kneeling at the communion ; the bohemian churches use that posture , and so do the churches of poland . with whom , the french , and dutch do so far agree , as in hoc ritu , suam cuique ecclesiae libertatatem salvam relinquere . to leave every church at its own freedom , in that particular . ] mr. baxter in his five disputations , does also profess , that rather then disturb the peace of the church , he would kneel too ; how hardly soever he may think of the imposition . so that in the case of kneeling , likewise , we have several of the reformed churches that joyn with us in the practise of it , and not so much as any one of them , that appears in our condemnation . touching the use of the cross in baptism ; ( beside the undeniable antiquity of the custom ) you may hear from mr. durell , that the reformed churches of the confession of augsburgh , do for the most part , use it ; and that at paris , many children of the church of charenton , have been baptized in the chappels of the english embassadours there , according to the rites of the church of england . and moreover , that only the nonconforming english , and scotch oppose it . i could enlarge my self , upon very good authority , to the justification of our way of worship , throughout , in every particular of your exceptions ; but i will rather chuse to encounter all your objections at once ; by proving , that the protestant churches , abroad , have as great a reverence for the authority , rites , and ceremonies of the church of england , in the whole frame of the constitution , as they have a kindness for the several parts of it , which they do severally exercise among themselves . i must still be beholden to the industry of the reverend durell , who has much obliged us with a clear , and methodical manifestation of the agreement of the church of england , ( as it is now established by the act of uniformity ) with other reformed churches beyond the seas . sir iohn colladon ( one of his majesties physicians in ordinary ) had the honour to congratulate his majesties restauration , from the city and church of geneva , and from the protestant cantons in switzerland . upon his departure , he put this quaere to the rulers of the said church ; whether he might lawfully joyn with the church of england , in publique worship , and receive the holy sacrament according to the usual rites thereof ? it was answer'd , that he might ; and that it was not to be question'd . here is also , a whole french reformed congregation , that hath conformed to the rites , and ceremonies of the church of england , to the great satisfaction of the divines of rouen , paris , geneva , bourdeaux , &c. and since the establishment of this church , divers ministers have come over , from geneva , france , germany , poland , lithuania , piemont ; students , elders , private persons : and none of them ever yet refused , either to assist , or to conform . mr. de laune , minister of the wallons church at norwich ; and mr. calendrin , one of the ministers of the dutch church in london , have divers times officiated in english congregations , according to the book of common prayer of the church of england ] without any scandal , either given or taken . nay , so far are they from disowning us , that the french divines hold them for schismatiques , and punishable , that refuse communion with us . * bucer thanks god with all his soul , to see the english ceremonies so pure . n. c. and have they , i beseech you , their set forms ? their peremptory impositions ? their declarations , and subscriptions ? c. yes , yes : all this , and more . for set forms , methinks you should rather tell me any one reformed church that wants a set form , then put me to the trouble of naming all that have . calvin , and beza are positive for them . geneva , much more severe for the observance of them , then we are here ; inconformity there , is cause of banishment for a year : and the gallican church makes it a matter of excommunication . in geneva ; calvin establish'd his discipline by an oath , both upon people , and pastors , to observe that form for ever after . the ministers take an oath of canonical obedience , in hungary ; and the french divines are not admitted , without subscription . there 's no imposing upon publique laws , with private scruples : no bandying allow'd , betwixt conscience , and authority : he that will not submit to the orders of a community , away with him . ( says calvin ) it is not enough to take cheque at the constitutions of the church , under colour of a weak conscience ( or so pretended ) but you must be fully satisfied , that the constitution is wicked in it self . nay , calvin carries it further . suppose it really ministers matter of offence ; ( says he ) that will not serve to vacate the obligation , unless it be also found to be simply , and in it self repugnant to the word of god. [ quia tamen verbo dei perse non repugnat , concedi potest . to provide against evil consequences , is the magistrates duty , not the subjects . n. c. the worship of god , is in it self pure , and perfect , and decent , without having any such ceremonies affixed thereunto ; [ and many faithful servants of the lord , knowing his word to be a perfect rule of faith , and worship , have ever been exceeding fearful of uarying from his will , and of the danger of displeasing him , by additions , or detractions , in such duties . c. you will hardly find any honest president for this nicety . ( calvin would have given it a worse name ) testatum velim ( says he ) me non de ceremoniis litigare , quae decoro tantum , & ordini serviant : vel etiam symbola sunt , & incitamenta ejus quam deo deferimus reverentiae . he declares himself , you see , not only for ceremonies , of order , and decency ; but for ceremonies of significancy , and incitement to reverence and devotion . and in another place , ergone ( inquies ) nihil ceremoniarum rudioribus dabitur , ad juvandam eorum imperitiam ? id ego non dico ; omnino enim utile illis esse sentio , hoc genus adminiculi . ] will you allow of no ceremonies then at all , ( you 'l say ) for the instruction of the vulgar ? you do not hear me say so ; for i am clearly of opinion ; that they are of very great use , and service to the people . upon the main ; the english non-conformists , ( as mr. durell well observes ) are a sort of people by themselves : and non-conformists , at geneva , and francfort , as well as at canterbury , or london . n. c. but still , methinks , whatever our consciences are as to the way of publick worship , we might yet be indulged with an allowance of ●…erving god among our selves . why should a toleration do worse here , then in holland ? c. i might answer you with another question . why should a commonwealth do worse here , then in holland ? or why should a standing army do worse here , then in holland ? beside ; if you look narrowly into it , you will find the dissenters from the settlement there , to be rather strangers , then natives . english , french , high-dutch , that flowed in to them upon the general revolt from the church of rome : lutherans , and anabaptists , out of germany ; calvinists out of france ; separatists , and semiseparatists out of england , in the days of queen mary , and independents , since ; all which were entertein'd , more out of regard to policy , then conscience ; their business being at that time to shake off the yoke of spain , and change the government : to which end , these several parties contributed effectually , by preparing the people for the alteration intended ; and inuring them to new principles , both of religion , and state. and yet you are not to understand theirs to be a perfect toleration neither . for you see , they would not , upon any terms , allow that freedom to the arminians , which they did to others ; but conven'd a synod , and exterminated the sect. the reason was , they had a jealousie of the arminians , for barnevelt's sake , the head of that party . you are to take notice also of the great difference betwixt the interest , and condition , of our ministers , and theirs . our clergy have a freehold in their benefices for term of life ; and if they be factiously disposed , they may evade the law , and do a mischief , without making a forfeiture . whereas theirs preach upon good behaviour ; live upon the states pay ; and upon the least colour of offence , may be turn'd off at pleasure . i need not tell you what havock , peters , bridges , sympson , ward , made in holland : but what they did abroad , the same thing they would have done at home , if they had been tolerated . n. c. what do ye think of poland then ? c. i think , that story speaks little to your advantage : take it either in respect of their frequent seditions , or in regard of their prodigious , and heretical opinions : and yet they live under the strongest obligation in nature to keep them quiet ; the tartar , and other powerful neighbours , lying hard upon them ; which makes their case to be rather an agreement against a common enemy , then among themselves . n. c. now take all at the worst ; it is but athanasius against the world , and the world against athanasius . number and truth , are not always of a side . c. and yet your multitudes make up a great part of your argument . this however let me speak for you ; there has no industry been wanting to propagate your profession . in the year 1619. the scotch discipline was presented to the synod at dort , for their approbation : but they would not meddle with it . anno 1654. upon the reprinting ( at geneva ) of a collection of the several confessions of faith , received in all the reformed churches of europe ; under the title of , corpus , & syntag●…a confessionum fidei , &c. it was moved that the thirty nine articles of the church of england , might be left out , and the assembly mens confession , put in the place : but the motion was totally rejected ; the thirty nine articles inserted , and not a word of the directory . they had no better luck with their covenant neither , then with their discipline . [ the ministers , and others of the consistory at charenton , and of other reformed churches in france ; as also the professours , ministers , and consistory of geneva , and of other neighbouring reformed churches in those parts , were so scandalized with this prodigious covenant , as that they were afraid of nothing more , then this , that it would bring an indeleble scandal upon the reformed churches , and alienate the minds of all the princes of christendom , from ever enterteining a good thought of their religion . the venerable assembly of english divines , and scotch commissioners ( as they stiled themselves ) sent the copy of their covenant , and a solemn invitation to seventeen reformed churches beyond the seas to ioyn with them . their letter should have been latin ; but so it was , that they left it a measuring cast , whether they were the better christians , casuists , subjects , or grammarians . their skill was most employ'd , in exhorting the french protestants to follow their example , and cast off the yoke of antichrist ; ( that is to say , of obedience ) and in calumniating their sovereign , as a confederate with the popish interest , to destroy the protestancy . which design , was only to be obviated , by a holy league . this was the drift of the address ; but we never heard syllable of the answer . there needs no more be said to prove the judgment of the reformed churches strong , and unanimous against you ; and you had best make a trial , if you can supply by reason , and argument , what you want in countenance , and authority . sect . xx. the non-conformists exceptions to o●… publique way of worship , found guilty of great impiety , and errour . c. what are your exceptions to our way of worship ? are they general ; or particular ? is it th●… imposition it self , or the thing imposed , that displeases you ? n. c. why truly both. the one takes away my christian liberty ; and the other , the liberty of my conscience . the greatest part of my trouble , i●… the act of uniformity . c. is it the model , or the uniformity you stick at ? n. c. both alike ; for neither is the particular act fram'd to my satisfaction ; nor is it possible that any one form of worship should suit all iudgments . c. will toleration suite all iudgments , any better then uniformity ? but , i perceive , you do not accompt the sanction of any one form whatsoever to be lawful . n. c. indeed i do not think it lawful for a magistrate to enjoyn any thing upon a penalty , which a private person may not conscienciously obey him in ; nor do i think it warrantable , for a man to obey any humane command , against the dictate of his conscience . c. put this together now . first , it is not possible that any one form of worship should suit all judgments : and then , it is not lawful to enjoyn any thing upon a penalty , which does not suit all judgments . what is this , but a meer trifling of government ; to suppose a law , without an obligation ? again ; if the magistrate cannot impose , neither can he tolerate ; unless you 'l suppose him a more competent judge of four conscience , then of his own : for you allow him to understand what he may tolerate , and deny him the knowledge of what he may impose . so that either he has no power , or no reason to favour you : no power , as you state his capacity ; and no reason , as you disclaim his authority . but you were saying , that the imposition , takes away your christian liberty . as how , i beseech ye ? n. c. in making those things necessary , which christ left free. for wherein does christian liberty more concern it self , then in the free use 〈◊〉 indifferent , or the forbear●…nce of doubtful things , which we are bound entirely 〈◊〉 preserve ; and whereof , by your ecclesiastical injunctions , we stand depriv'd ? c. if the king be ty'd up , in matte●… that are either commanded , or forbidden ; and the people left at liberty , in things indifferent : i would fain know what authority has to work upon . but thi●… point will fall in of it self by and by : though enough be said already , to prove your position utterly destructive of order , and society . for there is but good , bad , and indifferent , in nature : what we are bound to do ; what we are bound not to do ; and what we may either do , or let alone . ( that is to say , without the interposal of some incidental obligation to determi●… that indifference ) the asserters of this doctrine , fetch their warrant for it , out of st. paul 〈◊〉 the galatians 5. 1. stand fast in the liberty wherewith christ hath made us free. upon this text they ground their exemption . but here they prudently st●… too ; for the context would have spoil'd all : and they might as well have argu'd against the efficacy of christ's death , from the latter part of the second verse , as for christian immunity , ( in the latitude they understand it ) from the former part of the first . the apostle goes on in these words ; and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage . 〈◊〉 behold ; i paul say unto you , that if ye be circumcised , christ shall profit you nothing . 3 for i testifie again to every man that is circumcised , that he is a debtor to do the whole law. the case , briefly , was this. by the coming of our blessed saviour , the iewish ceremonies were abolish'd : some that had a mind to continue them , and keep the people still under the yoke of the law , stood for the doctrine of the circumcision . ( which was here the very matter in q●…estion ) the apostle cautions the galatians against it ; and not to be entangled again with the bondage of the law. which amounts only to a discharge from the bondage of that law to which they were before subjected ; without extending that liberty , to the prejudging of authoritative laws , and impositions for the time to come . as if the apostle had preached one thing to the galatians , and the contrary to the romans , obedience , at pleasure , in one place ; and obedience under pein of damnation , in another . in the second , and third verses , st. paul ( you see ) clears , and presses it further . as if he had said ; be circumcised at your peril . for that single point of the law , makes you answerable for the performance of every title of it . we are not ( says calvin ) ( perperam ad peliticum ordinem ) perversly to apply the doctrine of spiritual liberty , to political order , as if christians were to be ever the less subject to external government by humane laws , because their consciences are set at liberty before god. nay , says he , in another place ; si ecclesiae incolumitati benè prospectum volumus ] the church can never be safe , without st. paul's decency and order . but in regard of the diversity of customs ; and the variety of mens minds , and opinions ; it is not possible to secure any polity , without the authority of certain laws ; or to preserve any order , without some stated form. now so far am i from condemning any laws conducing to this end , [ ut his ablatis , dissolvi suis nervis ecclesias , totasque deformari , & dissipari contendamus ] that i look upon the removal of them , as the dissolution of the very sinews of the church , and expect nothing after it , but deformity , and dissipation . nor is it to be imagin'd , that all things should be done decently , and in order , ( after the apostles precept ) but by the mediation of certain rules , and observations , which may serve as so many bonds for the regulation of that decency , and order . always provided , that those ceremonies be not imposed as necessary to salvation , or essential to god's worship . from your plea for christian liberty , ( which is a proposition , in it self , destructive of all communities ) let us now move to your next exception , in the matter of scruple : wich i am afraid will be found no less intolerable in religion , then the other was in government ; and dangerous enough in both. it would take a man an age to run through all the quirks , and niceties of the question ; and to trace every particular , in dispute , from the original of its practice , or institution . and beside ; it were but actum agere ; for the lawfulness , and the antiquity of bishops , liturgies , and ceremonies , with all the minutes , sion : i am perswaded , it would pose the ●…est conveyancers in this kingdom , to draw up a deed of trust , to that purpose , without a flaw in 't . that is to say : a commission from the diffusive body of the people , must be directed to such and such ministers , as commissioners for tender consciences . from heaven it never came neither , i do verily believe . for most certainly christ , and his apostles , never issued out any commission , for the distracting of consciences , and societies . we read indeed of confirming the weak , but not a syllable , of staggering them . and for the extraordinary ways , of vision , and revelation , they are not so much as mention'd . n. c. if you would have given me leave , i should have told you , e'en now , that they are warranted by a sense , and impression of conscience , in the discharge of their pastoral duty : which obliges them , [ to watch over their flock ; to preserve them from errours , heresies , divisions ; to defend the truth , confute gainsayers , and seducers , instruct the ignorant , excite the negligent , encourage the despondent , comfort the afflicted , confirm the weak , rebuke , and admonish the disorderly , and scandalous . c. here 's much against you , and no●…●…ne word in your favour . instead of preserving their flocks from heresies , and divisions , your pastors demand a down-right toleration of them . and instead of encouraging the despondent , comforting the afflicted , and confirming the weak ; they tell the distressed , ( for their comfort ) that if they do any thing with doubting , they shall be damn'd ; and never go further , to deliver them from those doubts ; but there they very fairly leave them , surrounded with in●…xtricable scruples ; and their very souls , broken , and confounded with agony , and horrour . whether they do well , or ill , now be you your self the iudge . my opinion is , that they have as little to say for the conscience of their proceedings , as any way else . first , their very preaching , and writing , ( by reason of their legal incapacity ) is a transgression of the law. secondly , in the matter it self , they are to blame ; for it is of very evil consequence , both upon the publique , and upon particulars . to sa●… nothing of their undertaking for other mens consciences , which is a privilege belonging only to god himself . that they do ill , in disobeying the law , and in troubling the government , i suppose you will not deny ; and yet am i perswaded , that the very foundation of their plea for separation , and dissent , is the greatest part of the mischief . we have laws ecclesi●…l , for the ordering of the church ; and you refuse to obey them ▪ for what reason , i beseech you ? n. c. the best guide in the case of impositions , and obedience , i take to be the word of god and our doubtings sure are very reasonable , concerning god's worship ▪ where the scripture gives no direction . shew us where they are comma●…ded in the gospel , and we are ready to obey them . ; c. the scripture is the rule of our faith , not of our outward actions , and practise . 〈◊〉 whatsoever , to make up the doctrine of man's salvation , is added , as in supply of the scriptures insufficiency , we reject it . but does it therefore follow , that all things lawful to be done , are comprehended in the scripture ? admit . this , and god in delivering scripture to his church , should clear have abrogated amongst them , the law of nature , which is , an infallible knowledge imprinted in the minds of all the children of men , directing us in the choice of good and evil , in the daily affairs of this life . admit this ; and what shall the scripture be , but a snare , and a torment to weak consciences , filling them with infinite perplexities , scrupulosities , doubts insoluble , and extreme despairs . not●… that the scripture it self doth cause any such thing , but the necessities of this life , urging men to do that which the light of nature , common discretion , and judgment of it self directeth men unto : on the other side , this doctrine teaching them that so to do , wire to sin against their souls ; and that they put forth their hands to iniquity , whatsoever they go about , and have not first the sacred scripture of god for their direction . how can it chuse but bring the simple a thousand times to their wit●… end ? how can it chuse but v●…x and amaze them ; to be obliged in every action of common life , to find out some sentence of scripture , clearly , and infallibly setting forth , what we ought to do ? admit this , and it shall not be with masters , as it was with him in the gospel ; but servants being commanded to go , shall stand still , till they have their errand warranted unto them by scriptures . thus far the learned hooker : in agreement with mr. calvin , ( the oracle of the other party ) in his chapter of christian liberty , who writes to this effect . let every man have a care not to make things indifferent , matters of religion ; for nothing can be more necessary then the right understanding of that liberty ; without which , we shall never have any peace of conscience , and there will be no end of superstition . [ quae si aberit , nulla conscientiis nostris futura est quies ; nullus superstitionum finis ] he that scruples the lawfulness of eating , or drinking delicacies , will by degrees , let his scruple fall to meats and drinks l●…ss delicats , and so from one thing , to another , lower , and lower ; ( and all this while , in a perpetual anxiety of conscience ) till he comes at last to satisfie himself , that what he takes , both for quantity , and quality , is but just sufficient to entertein the absolute necessities of nature . he must have a text for every thing he does ; and not step over a straw , without consulting scripture first : and every common action is made a case of conscience . from this miserable perplexity of mind , what can be expected , but despair , and confusion ? hanging , drowning , cutting of throats , and all the wretched extremities of violence , which those poor creatures exercise upon themselves , as their last retreat , to avoid the fury of a tormenting conscience . this is the fruit of the doctrine of christian liberty ; a dangerous , and an impious position ; and can have no other aim , ( in truth , scarce any other issue ) than the vacating of humane laws ; and the extermination of all principles of duty , and subjection out of the hearts of the people . but to be as short as may be , you see the effects of your scruples ; pray'e speak a little to the grounds of them . what exceptions have you to our common prayer ? and see if you do not from one end to the other , fall foul upon your arguments . n. c. it is devised by men. c. so are your ministers prayers ; and ●…l prayers whatsoever , scripture-forms excepted . n. c. it is imposed upon the minister , and people , of necessity . c. the imposition of the directory was yet more general , strict , and peremptory . there was no dispensation for a family , and four more , which , as it might be improv'd , takes in well nigh the whole kingdom . n. c. but your common prayer is stinted , both in matter , and words , to be used without variation : and so was not the directory . c. why may not the church impose a stinted form upon the minister , as well as the minister , ( if he so pleases ) upon the people ? for if the minister be left at liberty either to keep to one form , or to vary , at his own election , the congregation is at his mercy , whether they shall have a stinted form , or no. smectymnuus is so gracious as to allow of a stinted form , himself ; in case the minister shall be found insufficient to discharge the duty of prayer in a conceived way : but then it is to be imposed on him as a punishment : to use set forms , and no other . so that it is not the unlawfulness it seems , of a set form , nor the imposition , but the inexpedience you stumble at : and the world is at a fine pass sure , when the parliament of england shall not presume to make laws , without asking the si●…c'd ministers opinions first , about the expedience of them . the directory , as to the matter of it , is as well a stinting of the spirit , as the common prayer . for in the sulstance , and scope of the prayer , the minister is limited ; only for the wording of it , he is at his own freedom : and if he may but turn almighty and most merciful father , into omnipotent and most gracious lord god , the peace is concluded . otherwise we are to look for nothing but fire and sword : lives , laws , and liberties , must be hazzarded i●… the quarrel . n. c. do you make no difference between imposing set forms , upon a few insufficient ministers , and upon a multitude of others , in common , that have the gift of prayer ? c. no , none at all , as to the exemption of any man from the general rule . beside ; what security can any man give , that he shall continue in the right exercise of his reason ? put case your gifted minister should be taken with some distemper that seizes the brain , and disorders , ( or but clouds ) his understanding : nay , let it be only some faint , drowsie indisposition of body , or heaviness of mind ; what becomes of the assembly , under so languid , spiritless , ( and perchance extravagant ) a dispensation ? further : the right , and the reason too , of imposing upon one minister , extends to all. again : if a set form may be admitted , where the minister is not good at extempore ; what becomes of your argument , i beseech ye , for the consciences of the congregation ? unless you understand the weakness of the minister to be a dispensation for the scruples of the people ; in which case , it may be lawful for the king and parliament to impose a service-book . and yet again : over and above the vanity , and the arrogance of the undertaking ; do me but the favour to consider , what an irreverence , what a prophanation of gods holy worship , and ordinances , must needs ensue upon it . the desk is turn'd into an oratory , as well for the tryal of gifts , and faculties , as for the exercise of them : and half the business the congregation has at church , is to hear men talk to god almighty , upon their probation : which is done too , ( god knows it , even at the best ) not without great imperfections , and failings ; witness their [ affectations , emptiness , impertinency , rudeness , con fusion , flatness , levity , o●…scurity , vain , and ridiculous repetitions , their sensl●…ss , and oft-times blasphemous expressions : ] which are but helps at a plunge , either to gain time for the recovery of their lost matter , or to stop gaps , and fill up broken sentences . now where 's the life , and power ( as you call it ) of devotion , all this while ; when the whole man is taken up , ( and all little enough too ) about words , and periods ; and the ministers chief care diverted from the saving of souls , to the saving of his own credit ? hence proceeds that agreement of tone , and emphasis , in all their exclamations , acted passions , and vain repetitions , with now and then a groan drawn out to a most doleful length for a parenthesis . for they are all sick of the same disease , and these interjections give them a little breath , and respit , for recollection . now in this loss of sense , ●…nd order , how is it possible for the affections of the congregation , to keep company with the minister in all his wandrings , doubtings , and circumlocutions ? the one half of their intention is spent in divining ( before-hand ) what he drives at ; and the other , in unriddling his meaning , when he has deliver'd it . whereas in set-forms , both minister and people are freed from these distractions , and totally intent upon the duty of the worship : and there is a greater harmony , and union of affections , when they pray all at the same time , in the same words , and for the same thing . i might insist upon the inconvenience of leaving ministers at liberty , for fear of disturbing the publique : and tell you over and over , that in our stinted forms we do but joyn in the common privilege of other churches : but more then enough is spoken already . let me hear now what you have to say against our ceremonies . n. c. whereas kneeling is imposed , in the act of receiving the lord's supper , we desire that none may be troubled for receiving it standing , or sitting . c. you have quitted your hold , i perceive , of scriptural direction , and president . for neither standing , nor sitting was the tricliniary posture . but why not kneeling , as well as either sitting , or standing ? n. c. because it is a novelty ; contrary to the decrees , and practise of the church , for many hundred years after the apostles . and it has been forbidden by general councils . and it is not good also to shew a needless countenance of adoring the bread of god. c. can you shew me that kneeling at the lord's supper has been forbidden , where kneeling at other parts of publique worship has been allow'd ? now you your selves allow of , and practise kneeling in other cases , which is every jote as contrary to the ancient custom , as our kneeling at the sacrament . but we must not kneel , you say , for fear of countenanceing the adoration of the breaden god. to which i answer , that first , the doctrine of our church speaks directly to the contrary . secondly , the rubrick directs kneeling at the confession ; and the people continue kneeling , at the receiving . n. c. but with your favour , the rubrick does afresh enjoyn kneeling : and order the communion to be delivered into the peoples hands kneeling . c. right . and now take your choice , whether we shall rather run the hazzard of being suspected to adore the breed , because we receive it after the english gesture of worshipping , which is kneeling ; or incur the same censure , by changing posture , and taking it after the ancient way of worshipping , which is standing ? if you can make appear , that where the custom was to worship standing , they received , kneeling ; you say something toward the perswading of us that worship kneeling , to receive stànding . your exceptions throughout , are much of a quality ; negatively imposing upon authority , because you will not be positively bound up your selves . for , you shall not do this , or that , is an imposition , as well as you shall . another humour you have gotten , of scrupling at ceremonies , because they are made as necessary to salvation , as the word it self , and the sacraments . ( this is the suggestion of the petition for peace , pa. 8. ) whereas it has been , and still it is the constant care of the imposers themselves , by an express solemnity of explanation , to satisfie the whole world to the contrary . give us leave only for one word more , and that out of calvin's institutions , concerning scandal ; ( lib. 3. cap. 19. ) which you make one part of your compleint . there is ( says he ) a scandal given , and taken . the one is the scandal of the weak ; the other , of the pharisees ; who out of a p●…rverse malignity of spirit , turn every thing to the worse . there is no yielding to this sort of men ; no enduring , no hearing of them : [ qui quum in mille impietatis formas duces se praebent , sic sibi agendum fingunt , ne proximo sint offendiculo . who , under colour of tenderness in the matter of scandal , make no conscience at all of a thousand gross impieties . this is his iudgment , and our case : and there is no remedy , but by concluding upon a final , and unaccomptable iudge . sect . xxi . whatsoever god hath left indifferent , is the subject of humane power . c. as reasonable nature consists of soul , and body ; so is the authority that governs it , divine , and humane : god , eminently over all , and princes ministerially , under him , and as his substitutes . the dominion of our souls , god reserves peculiarly to himself , committing that of our bodies to the care of the magistrate . now if power be a divine ordinance , so consequently is subjection ; for to imagine the one , without the other , were to destroy the reason of relatives . a strict , and accurate disquisition of this matter , would save us much trouble that arises about the bounds , and limits of our duty ; how far religion binds us , and how far allegeance . that they are severable , we are not to doubt , since truth it self has said it . give unto caesar the things that are caesar ' s ; and unto god , the things that are god's . but that they are only so severable , as never to become inconsistent , is founded upon the same immovable rock ; let every soul be subject , &c. a precept , of a perpetual , and universal operation , and limited neither to time , place , not persons . n. c. your deduction of government , and subjection , from divine institution , is well enough ; and that we are to obey the magistrate for god's sake , and in subordination to god , is easily prov'd , and granted : but i hear nothing yet of the particular bounds , and terms of humane iurisdiction ; what 't is belongs to god , and what to caesar. c. and that , i confess , is the pinch of the question : for one duty comes up so close to the other , that 't is not for every common eye to pass between them . effectually , they touch ; but in what point , is of a nice decision . the nearest way to the knowledge of our duty , is to apply it to the laws , and powers of the authority : for a man must first know the rule , before he can observe it . we are then to consider , that the almighty wisdom has invested kings with an unlimimited power of commanding , or forbidding , in all matters , which god himself has not either commanded , or forbidden : which proposition resolves it self into this conclusion . whatsoever god has left indifferent , is the subject of humane power . n. c. does not that opinion destroy christian liberty ? c. no : but the denial of it destroys magistracy . if kings have not this power , they have none at all : and it implies a contradiction , to suppose any authority in nature without it . n. c. but may not a prince tye himself up , in a thing otherwise indifferent ? c. i speak of power according to the institution , not of power limited by p●…ction . n. c. may not the same thing be indifferent to one , and not to another ? c. very good : and will not every thing imaginable . appear non-indifferent to some or other ; if nothing may be commanded , but what upon such a phansie may be disobey'd ? n. c. pardon me : i do not speak of matters of civil concern , but of matters of religion . c. that 's all a case ; for you cannot instance in any one civil action , that may not be made relative to religion . but we are now upon the extent of humane power . that there is such a power , and that , authoriz'd too by god himself , you have already granted . let me but understand now , upon what subject shall that power be exercis'd ; if you exclude things indifferent ? one man may have a real scruple , and all the rest , pretend one . who shall distinguish ? so that the rule holding from one to all , the sacred authority of the prince becomes dependent upon the pleasure of the subject ; and the validity of a divine , and unchangeable ordinance , is subjected to the mutable iudgment , and construction of the people . n. c. and you expect , the magistrate should as well have the authority of iudging what 's indifferent , as of restreining it . c. you may be sure i do ; for i am but where i was , if i make you the judge . is it not all one , as to the magistrate , whether you refuse , upon pretense that the thing is not indifferent , or upon pretense , that he cannot restrein a thing indifferent ? the crime indeed is differing in the subject : for the one way , 't is an usurpation of authority ; and the other way , 't is a denial of it . n. c. why then it seems , i am to believe every thing indifferent , which the magistrate tells me is so , be it never so wicked . c. no ; there you are bound up , by a superiour law. n. c. have you so soon forgot your self ? you would not allow me to be a iudge , just now ; and here , you make me one . c. right . to your self , you are one , but not to the publique ; you are a judge of your own thought , but not of the law. n. c. and does not this way of arguing as much endanger authority , as the other ? for all may iudge thus , as well as one. c. 't is possible they may . nay we 'l suppose an imposition foul enough to move them all to do so ; and yet there 's a large difference : for diversity of iudgment does not shake the foundation of authority ; and a man may disobey a sinful command , with great reverence to the power that imposes it . n c. you were saying e'en now , that my duty to god , and to the king , could never be inconsistent . how shall i behave my self , i pray'e , if the king command one thing , and god another ? i cannot observe the law , without violence to my conscience , nor discharge my conscience , without offence to the law. what course shall i take , to avoid enterfering ? c. demea●… your self as a christian , toward the law of god , one the one hand , and as a subject , toward the ordinance of god , on the other : as considering , that you are discharg'd of your obedience in that particular , but not of your subjection in the general . n. c. put case the supreme magistrate , should by a law , establish a false worship . c. he 's nevertheless your prince , and even in this complication , you may acquit your self both to god , and to caesar. though the worship be amiss , the magistrate is yet to be reverenc'd ; and you are to divide the one from the other ; in such manner , as still both to fear god , and honour the king. this loyal , and religious separation of our duties , will set us right in the main controversie . where do ye find that kings reign , upon condition of ruling righteously ? or that we owe them less , after misgovernment , then we did before ? n. c. but do you say , we are bound to honour an idolatrous prince ? this is not according to the doctrine of many of our grave divines . c. they are never the better divines for that doctrine . the prince , i tell ye , you are bound to honour , though not as an idolater . shall the vice , or errour of the person , degrade the order ? by that rule , the world must continue without a government , till we can find men without failings . n. c. so that , when it makes for your turn , you can allow ( i see ) of distinguishing betwixt the person , and the office . c. betwixt the frailty of the one , and the sacredness of the other , i do : for kings command , as gods , though they iudge , as men. but i do no more approve of dividing the person of a prince , from his authority , then of dividing his soul from his body . n. c. and i beseech you , what is that , which you call authority ? c. it is the will , and power of a multitude , deliver'd up by common consent , to some one person , or more , for the good , and safety of the whole : and this representative acts for all. now on the other side , the disposition of such , or such a number of persons , into an order of commanding , and obeying , is that which we call a society . n. c. what is the duty of the supreme magistrate ? c. to procure the welfare of the people ; or , according to the apostle , he is the minister of god , for a comfort to those that do well , and for a terrour to evil doers . n. c. how far are his laws binding upon his subjects ? c. so far , as they that parted with their power , had a right over themselves . n. c. whence was the original of power ? and what form of government was first ; regal , or popular ? c. power was ordein'd of god , but specifi'd by man : and beyond doubt , the first form of government was monarchique . n. c. but i should rather think the popular form was first : for how could there be a king , without a people ? c : so was the son before the father , you may say , for how could there be a father without a son ? but the q●…estion is ; first : was the world ever without a government , since the creation of m●…n ? secondly ; whether was there first in the world , one man , or more ? but we are not here upon the form of government , but upon the latitude of humane iurisdiction ; be the sovereignty where it will. and my assertion is , that it extends to whatsoever god has left indifferent . if you deny this , you overthrow all government . n. c , and what are you the better , if i should grant it ; unless we could all come to an agreement , about what is indifferent , and what not ? c. which must be procured by the allowance of some iudicial authority to dec●…de it . sect . xxii . no end of controversie , without a final and unaccomptable judge , from whose sentence there shall be no appeal . c. when subjects come once to dispute laws , the war is already declar'd against the government . for it is not the equity or iniquity of the matter of the law , that is the question ; but the authority of the law-maker ; under the countenance indeed of somewhat that might be mended in the law it self . and the business comes immediately to this issue ; whether the king , or the people , shall determine , in what concerns the good of the community ? that is to say ; whether the government shall stand , or fall ? whether or no we shall submit our selves quietly to be over-ruled in all controversies , by a definitive sentence of law ; ( according to the end , and intention of government , in its first institution ) or otherwise , by receding from that common , peaceable , and impartial arbitrator of all our differences ; from our faith given ; our oaths , and contracts : throw our selves back again into a state of nature , and dissolution ; and for want of a moderator , leave all our disagreements to be decided by the sword ? ( the certain event of all popular appeals , from laws , to multitudes ) this was tbe ruine of us , in our late confusions . the faction , you saw , could do nothing , upon the suggestions of right , or wrong ; convenience , or inconvenience ; till they came to make themselves the iudges of it : and no sooner were they possest of that pretension , but all went presently head-long to destruction . from questioning the legal power of the king , they proceeded to the exercise of an arbitrary power , themselves : from asserting the subjects liberties , to the invading of them : and from the reformation of abuses , to the extirpation of the government . the two houses led the dance , and outed the king ; the commons did as much for the lords ; and the people , as much for the commons : which comes to no more , then what was reasonably to be expected , upon turning the course of publick affairs into a wrong channel ; and subjecting the indisputable rights of sovereign authority , to the censures , and expostulations of the rabble . n. c. what are those indisputable rights , i beseech ye ? c. i reckon ( among others ) the power of making laws ; and likewise of enforcing the execution of them ; without admitting any sort of demur , or contradiction : for let the people break in once upon any one law , and they will hardly quit their hold , till they have worm'd out , or unsettled all the rest. in short ; i do esteem it a matter of absolute necessity , to the peace , and the very beeing of all government , to have some unaccomptable iudge ; some unquestionable expedient of law , or authority , for the ending of controversies : the determination to be final , and decisive : no appealing from it , and no contending beyond it . n. c. what not in case of errour ? i could be well enough content with a iudge ; and with indispu●…able laws , if you could but assure me of infallible law-makers . but i should be sorry to see a roman-infallibility set up in england . c. so that rather then a fallible iudge , you will have none at all . you could be content with a iudge , you say ; but then that iudge must be questionable , in case of errour ; so that another iudge is to judge him ; and the very iudge of this iudge , is himself questionable ; and so is his iudge , and his iudges iudge ; ( in infinitum ) in case of errour : which case of errour may be alledg'd , wheresoever there is no infallibility ; and if there be no infallibility in nature , then by your rule , there can be no iudge in nature . n. c. i do not say but a man may iudge certainly in some cases , though not infallibly in all : and all i ask , is only a free exercise of my iudgment at discretion , without being ty'd up to an implicit resignation . there is but a right , and a wrong ; and the one i must embrace , and reject the other . how shall i know this from that , without enquiry ? and what am i the better for that enquiry , if when i have learn'd my duty , i am debarr'd the liberty to practise it ? c. you turn the question , from the necessity of a judg , to his infallibility . 't is all one to me , whether you make him infallible , or credible , or what you make him , or where you place him ; provided that he be acknowledg'd necessary , and unac●…omptable . that he is necessary , i presume you will easily afford me : for there can be no peace without him , every man being at liberty to wrangle , where no man is authoris'd to take up the strife . but would you have him unaccomptable , or no ? n. c. what greater encouragement is there in the world , to tyranny , then the opinion of an unaccomptable sovereignty ? c. what is it rather ( you should have said ) that excites sedition , and depopulates kingdoms , so much as the contrary ? and doubtless , the fiercest tyranny is much more supportable , then the mildest rebellion . n. c. truly , as to the convenience of a definitive sentence . i should be glad to see it ; without the hazzard of a d●…finitive injustice . c. you mistake your self , if you oppose a possible injury on the one side , to a certain wrangle ; and confusion on the other . if infallibility you cannot find , why may not the fairest probability content you ? n. c. but would you have that probability govern by unquestionable , and authoritative conclusions ? c. by any means ; you do nothing else : for where controversies are inevitable , and concord ( if it may be had ) necessary ; what can be more reasonable , then to chuse the most competent iudge of the matter in controversie , for the concluding umpire of the controversie it self ? n. c. but a man may iudge probably in one case , and improbably in another : suppose the determination to be manifest errour , or injustice ; would you have the same submission paid to it , as if it were equity , and truth ? c. yes : to the determination , though not to the errour : you are to stand to the authority of the sentence , without contesting the equity of it : for right , or wrong , 't is a decision . the principal scope , and sure end of a reference , is peace : the hopeful event , and issue of it , is righteous iudgment . is it not well then , to be sure of the one , and in so fair a likelihood of the other ? put it to the worst ; you are not bound to be of the iudge his opinion , but to be over-rul'd by his authority : neither do you undertake that he shall judge critically , as to the subject of the question ; but that he shall judge effectually , as to the purpose of the reference . n. c. this resignation may do well , in cases of ●…ivil interest : but it will hardly hold in matters of conscience . who shall pretend to iudge of my conscience , beside god , and my self ? c. the scripture , which is the rule of all consciences , shall be the iudge of yours . but the question is not , what the conscience is , but what it ought to be : not what your private iudgment says , but what the scripture means ; and the thing i strive for , is a judge of that : a iudge of the rule of faith ; which i take to be all out as necessary , as a iudge of a political law. you cannot but allow , that there are diversities of opinions , as well in religion , as concerning secular affairs : and such is our corruption , that we draw poyson , even from the fountain of life ; and the word of god it self , is made the warrant of all crimes , and the foundation of all heresies . look behind ye , and you may see a prince murther'd by his subjects : authority beheaded by a pretended law , and all this defended by a text. the church devour'd by a divided ministry ; the government overturn'd by a solemn league and covenant to support it : an arbitrary power introduc'd by the patrons of liberty : the lord's prayer cashier'd , to make way for the motions of the holy ghost ; and charity it self extinguish'd for the advancement of the gospel . we have liv'd to see as many heresies , as congregations ; and a consistorian scrutiny , prest beyond the rigour of a spanish inquisition . we have seen some that a abhor idols , committing sacrilege : christ's kingdom cry'd up , till his b divinity is deny'd . strictness of life inculcated , till the very rule of it c ( the decalogue it self ) is rejected : and blasphemy hunted out of the tavern , into the pulpit . in fine ; what sin , and misery have we not known , and felt , since under the form of liberty of conscience , this freedom of a private spirit came in vogue ? nor are we ever to expect better from it , till all men shall conspire to do the same thing , where every man is left to his own gust , to do what he pleases . and whence flows all this mischief , and confusion , but from a license of wandring from the rule ? methinks these practises should put you , and your cause out of countenance . n. c. i am no advocate for anarchy , though no friend to uniformity : and i know 't is with non conformists , as with other people there are good and bad of all sorts . but to go with the moderate : would you have all mens consciences gobern'd by the same rule ? ; c. better particulars suffer for incompliance with the publique , then the publique suffer for complying with particulars . uniformity is the ciment of both christian , and civil societies : take that away , and the parts drop from the body ; one piece falls from another . the magistrate ( for orders sake ) requires uniformity ; you , and your associates oppose it , upon a plea of conscience . the question is ; whether he shall over-rule your opinions , or you over-rule his authority ? this dispute begets a war , for want of a iudge ; and to prevent that consequence , i offer that a iudge is necessary . or put it thus : you , and i differ ; and possibly we are both in the wrong ; but most certainly we are not both in the right ; and yet neither of us but thinks well enough of his own opinion . what 's to be done in this case ? shall we wrangle eternally ? n. c. no , we 'l rather put the matter to arbitration . c. well ; but the arbiter himself is fallible ; and may mistake too : or let him have the wisdom of an angel , he cannot please us both : for that which seems right to the one , will appear wrong to the other . shall we stand to his award whatever it be ? if not , take into your thought these consequences . you refuse to submit , because it is wrong ; and i may refuse , by the same reason , though it be right : ( for , every man's reason is of equal force , where there is no common , and representative reason to bind all. ) so that by your reckoning , every man is in the right to himself , and in the wrong to all the world besides : ( for i perswade my self , that nature never produc'd two persons , in all points , of the same judgment . ) now , if you can neither deny confusion to be the natural effect of this liberty of iudgment ; nor the want of a regulating , and decretory sentence , to be the cause of this confusion , i hope you 'l grant me the necessity of an unaccomptable iudge . n. c. is not the word of god a sufficient iudge ? c. no : that 's no iudge , but [ a rule for christians to iudge by ] and the great danger lies upon the meaning of that rule . witness those swarms of heresies , that have over-spread this land , since the bible has been deliver'd up to the interpretation of private spirits . n. c. you say well , if you could direct me to a iudge that we might all rely upon . c. and you say something too , if you could make appear , that none at all is better then the best we have : or that popular errours , numberless , and inevitable , ( with the dissolution of societies to boot ) are to be preferr'd to the few , and only possible failings of authority , attended however with peace , and agreement . the question , briefly , is this. whether will you rather have ; one fallible iudge , or a million of damnable heresies ? n. c. truly , as you have reduc'd it , to a certainty of peace the one way , and to as great a certainty of discord , the other ; to a certainty of many errours , without a iudg , and to a bare possibility of some few , with one : i think a final iudge may be convenient , if not necessary . c. if you find it so in the church , sure you will not dispute it in the state ; especially against an experience too , the most forcible of all reasons . we were never troubled with constructive necessities ; with cavils about the receptacle of power , and the limits of obedience : with distinctions betwixt the political , and the natural right of the people ; the legal , and the personal will of the prince ; and betwixt the equity , and the letter of the law : till judgment was forc'd from its proper course , and the decision of political controversies , committed to the frivolous , and tumultuary arbitrations of the people . n. c. nay , i am as much for a iudge , as you ; but not for one iudge to all purposes : nor indeed , for any iudge so absolute as you would have him . c. i tell ye again , a iudge , and no absolute iudge , is no judge : and you shall as soon find the end of a circle , as of a controversie , by such a iudge . nor is it yet my intention , that one iudge should serve for all purposes . n. c. divide your matter then , and assign to every iudicable point its proper iudge . c. you have reason ; for truly i do not take the magistrate to be any more a iudge of my conscience , then i am of his. n. c. no doubt of it ; and it were an encroachment upon the prerogative of god himself , for the magistrate to challenge it . c. how comes it now , that we , that accord so well in the end , should differ so much in the way to 't ? but i hope the clearing of the next point will set all right : for after the acknowledgment of the general necessity of a iudge , we have nothing further to do , but to agree upon the iudge , and so submit . sect . xxiii . the three great judges of mankind , are god , magistrates , and conscience . some things we do as men ; other things , as men in society ; and some again , as christians . in the first place , we are acted by the law of individuals ; which law , in the second place , is subjected to that of government ; and both these laws are , in the third place , subordinate to that of religion ; i. e. the law of god's revealed will. so that the three great iudges of mankind are , god , magistrates , and conscience . man as consisting of soul , and body , may be again subdivided within himself . take him in his lower capacity , and he is sway'd by the general law of animal nature , but in his divine part , you will find him govern'd by the nobler law of refined reason ; which reason , in some cases , we call prudence , and in others , conscience , according as it is variously exercised . the things which we do purely as men , ( abstracted from any ingredients of policy , or regulated religion ) are either natural actions , prudential , or moral . of the first sort , are those actions to which we are prompted by a natural impulse , in order to the conservation of life , and being . of the third sort , are such actions as we perform in obedience to moral principles . ( which are no other , then the divine will , as it is couched under the dictate of humane reason ) and betwixt these two , lies the region of middle actions : that is , of such actions , as although not of simple , and strict necessity , either to life , or virtue , are notwithstanding useful , and commodious , for the guidance , and comfort of the one , and for the practice of the other . the accurate disquisition of this interest clears the main difficulty of the question ; for nothing has embroyl'd us more , then the mistaken rights , and privileges of individuals : which mistakes being once made manifest , by laying open the subordination of several claims , and powers , every man may take a distinct view of his own province . n. c. if you will proceed regularly , you are to state these subordinations as you go . c. agreed ; and we are now upon the right of individuals : in which naked simplicity of considering man , without any regard to the ordinary motions of providence , in the order , and regiment of the world , we shall yet find a natural subordination within himself , and the law of sense , under the dominion of the law of reason , in the same subj●…ct . these are the laws which the apostle calls the law of his members , and the law of his will. the former law ( and the less excellent ) is the law sensitive ; which is no other , then the law of self-preservation . ( the supreme law of animal beings , as it is of rationals the lowest ) this law sensitive , is no other than the manifestation of god in the creature : for what sense does , nature does ; and what nature does , god does . n. c. but what is that power all this while , which you call nature ? c. it is the ordinary working of god in all his creatures ; by virtue of which divine impression , and influence , every thing is moved to seek the utmost perfection whereof it is capable . as for the purpose ; the perfection of man is the congruity of his actions with his reason ; which is nothing else , but that which we call virtue . the perfection of beasts lies a degree lower : for they are only mov'd by a sensual impulse , towards what is convenient for them ; and when they have it , they rest. n. c. when people are gravell'd , they fly to their impulses , and occu●…t qualities . where lies the difference ; i beseech you , between their impulse , and our choice ? c. their impulse carries them on through a sensitive search , not any d●…liberative discourse ; and there is no e●…ection neither at last : but only the simple prosecution of a determinate appetite , without imagining any proportion betwixt the means , and the end. n. c. but still we find , that there is a proportion : and the motion appears to us according to the method of reason : and a very orderly proceeding from a question , to a resolution . c. is it reason , think ye , that makes a dog follow his nose , and hunt for meat , when he is hungry ? or will you call it choice , if he leaves a turfe for a bone ? now if you ask how this comes about : he is guided by instinct toward the end ; and sense carries him thorough the means . n. c. but why should the same process of means , and the same application of causes , be ascribed only to instinct , in brutes , and to reason , in man ? c. you are to take notice , that all natur●…l operations are regular , and ordinate , by what means soever performed : but it does not follow , because the method is according to reason , that therefore the instrument must be reasonable . but to mind what we are upon . the law of self-preservation , is a law common to beasts with men ; but not of equal force , and obligation : for their sovereign interest is life ; ours is virtue : and therefore your late argument for defensive arms , under pretense of that extremity , was but a brutish plea : for if the consideration of virtue be not above that of life , where lies the advantage of our reason ? n. c. but when the death is certain , and the virtue doubtful , who shall decide the point ? c. in a case abstracted from the ties , and duties of religion , and government , every man's reason sits as iudge upon his own life . as for instance ; you are in the hands of thieves , and only this choice offer'd you , either to take a false oath , or to lose your life . your conscience tells you , that you must rather perish , then forswear your self : but if you can preserve your self , without violence to a superiour duty , you are your own murderer if you do not . thus far i think we are safe , and i suppose agreed , that every individual is to govern himself by his natural conscience . but when the several particulars come to be bundled up in one community , the case is otherwise . n. c. i am sorry to hear you say that . why should not every man be govern'd by his own conscience , as well in consort , as in solitude , as well in company , as by himself ? or will you have it , that our duty to god ceases in the act of becoming subjects to a civil power ? c. as to your conscience , you are as free now , as you were before : but your body is no longer your own , after you are once enrolled a member of a society . and here 's the difference ; you were your own servant before , and now you are the king 's . ( for what is government , but the wisedom , resolve , and force of every particular , gather'd into one under standing , will , and body ? ) and this comes up to what i have already deliverd , that , whatsoever god has left indifferent , is the subject of humane power . n. c. but who shall be iudge of what 's indifferent ? c. let that be examined the very next thing we do . you are already satisfied , that an auth●…rized iudge is absolutely necessary , in order to the pe●…ce of church , and state , and to the ending of all publique differences : but we are not yet resolv'd about our iudges ; or if we were , yet in regard they are but men , and so may erre , [ infallibility being departed with christ and his apostles ; in lieu of which living , and infallible guides , god has in providence given us a plain , and infallible rule ] we are now to make enquiry , how far a private judge may be allow'd to oppose , or differ from a publique , in case of a reluctant conscience , and in some sort to iudge his iudge ? n. c. you say very well ; for place the ultimate decision where you will , it is ( as you said before ) an infallible determination as to the strife ; but not so , as to the truth ; and comes at last to this , that every man ( in some degree ) re-judges his iudge . if i be fully convinc't , either , that the command is sinful in it self , or the opinion wicked ; i am neither to obey the one , nor to embrace the other ; as being tied up by a general obligation of rather obeying , and believing god , then man. nay more ; if in obedience to the magistrate , i commit a sin against god , and do it ignorantly too , that very act in ignorance is crimin●…l : ( if i had the means of being better inform'd : ) for no humane respect c●…n justifie an offence against god. now if i am bound to do nothing that is ill ; i am likewise bound , before i do any thing , to satisfie my self , whether it be ill , or no : for otherwise , i may follow a false religion for a true , and be damned in the end , for not minding what i did . this do i take for proof sufficient , that no man is so implicitely obliged to rely upon other mens eyes , as totally to abandon the direction of his own ; or so unconditionally to swear obedience to other mens laws , and perswasions , as to hold no intelligence at all with that sacred law , and faithful counsell●…r which he carries in his own b●…som . c. i am so far from advising you to reneunce your reason , that , on the contrary , i would have you absolutely guided , and concluded by it ; and only to obey for quiet sake , so far as you can possibly obey in conscience . n. c. what if a single person hit that truth , which a general council misses ? which will you have him follow ; truth , or authority ? c. i would have him follow truth with his soul , and authority with his body . but it is not for so remote a possibility as this is , to bring the fansies and imaginations of a private spirit into a competition with resolutions of law , and yet for the possibility sake , we 'l take the very supposition likewise into consideration , and word the whole matter as plainly as we can . the church says , ye may do ; and the law says , you must do , that which your conscience says , you ought not to do. how will you reconcile your duty , and your conscience , in this case ? n. c. uery well : for i think it my duty to obey my conscience , upon this principle , that conscience is god's substitute over individuals . c. keep to that , and answer me once again ; is not the civil magistrate god's substitute too ? if he be , how comes your conscience to take place of his authority ? they are both commission'd alike , and consequently , both to be obey'd alike : which is impossible , where their commands are inconsistent . n. c. the magistrate is a publique minister , and his commission does not reach to particular consciences . c. and on the other side , you are a private person , and there is as little reason for your opinion to operate upon a publique law. so that if i mistake you not , we are upon accord thus far ; that every particular is to look to one , and the king to the whole . now if you would deal as candidly with me , about the ecclesiastical power , as you have done in the civil , we might make short work of this question . i hope you will not deny that the church is as well a authorized to teach , and instruct in all the external acts of worship , as b the magistrate is to compel to those external acts. n. c. there is no doubt , c the church ( as the church ) has a ministerial power ( ex officio ) to define controversies , according to the word of god ; and that d a syn●…d lawfully conven'd , is a limited , ministerial , and bounded visible iudge , and to be believed in , so far as they fellow christ , the peremptory and supreme iudge , speaking in his own word . c. this will not do our business yet ; for to say , that a synod is to be believed in , so far as it follows christ , seems to make those the iudges of that act , that are to be concluded by it ; and leaves the credit of the authority , dependent upon the conscience , fancy , or humour of the believer . for 't is but any man's saying , that the synod does not follow christ , and that he trusts in it so far as it does follow him. and this is enough to keep the controversie afoot , without any hope of decision . n. c. we are indeed to believe truths determined by synods , to be infallible , and never again liable to retraction , or discussion ; not because [ so says the synod , ] but because [ so says the lord. ] c. still you are short ; for 't is not in our power to dis●…elieve what we acknowledge to be a truth : but that which is truth at the fountain , may be corrupted in the passage ; or at least appear so to me , and what then ? n. c. it must be look't upon as an errour of the conscience ; which is no discharge at all of your obedience : from which errour you are to be reclaimed , either by instruction , or censure . for the people are obliged to obey those that are over them in the lord , who watch for their souls , as those who must give an accompt ; ] and not oblig'd to stand to , and obey the ministerial and official iudgment of the people . he that heareth you ( ministers of the gospel , not the people ) heareth me ; and he that despiseth you , despiseth me. c. why should not we two shake hands now , and join in the act for uniformity ? you cannot say , that it wants any thing of the full complement of a binding law ; either in regard of the civil , or of the ecclesiastical authority . here is first , the iudgment of the church duely conven'd , touching the meetness , and conveniency of the rites , and forms therein conteined . you have next , the royal sanction , approving , and authorizing those rites , and forms ; and requiring your exact obedience to them . now so it is , that you can neither decline the authority of your iudges , nor the acknowledgment of your duties ; what is it then that hinders your obedience ? n. c. that which to me is more then all the world , it goes against my conscience . c. only that point then , and we have done with this subject . we have already concluded , that god is the iudge of the world ; that the church is the iudge of what properly concerns religion ; that the civil magistrate is iudge of what belongs to publique order , and peace ; and that every man's conscience is the iudge of what concerns his own soul. the remaining difficulty is this ; how i am to behave my self in a case , where the law bids me do one thing , and my conscience , another . to take a true estimate of this matter , we are first to ballance the two interests , that meet in competition ; the one , for the law , and the other , against it . there is , in favour , and for the execution of the law ( meaning that of uniformity ) 1. the personal conscience , and 2. the political conscience of the king. there is moreover , for the equity of it , the solemn and deliberate iudgment of the church ; which is , effectually , the publique conscience ; and lastly , for the observance of it , there is the duty of the subject , which , if it be withdrawn , does not only invalidate this particular act , but it loosens the sinews of sovereign authority ; and which is more , it destroys even a divine ordinance ; for take away obedience , and government lapses into confusion . now for the counterpoise ; against this law , and thus supported , appears your naked conscience . nay , that 's the fairest on 't ; it may be worse , and in truth , any thing that 's ill , under that name . n. c. but what 's the world to me , in the scale against my soul ? c. you have great reason sure , and 't is no more then every man may challenge : that is , to stand , or fall , to his own conscience : is that your principle ? n. c. yes , out of doubt ; 't is mine , and yours , and any man's that's honest. c. well ; hold ye a little ▪ your conscience will not down with this law ; and this law will as little down with your conscience . weigh now the good against the bad ; what if it stands ? what if it yields ? make the case worse then it is ; as bad as bad may be , in your own favour . you cannot comply with the law ; and the law will not stoop to you. what follows upon it ? n. c. the ruine of many godly people , that desire to worship god , according to his word . c. that plea wrought little upon you from us ; but let that pass . what sort of ruine do you mean ? ruine of liberty , or estate ? ( for this law draws no blood ) state your misfortunes , i beseech ye . n. c. no man must hold a benefice , or teach a school , but upon terms of such subscription , or acknowledgment , as many an honest man would rather die then consent to : so that we are distrest , not only for our selves , as being deprived of the comfort of all spiritual , and heavenly freedoms ; but our poor infants are exposed to be undone , wanting the means of a religious education . c. if this be all , never trouble your selves ; for many an honest man has out-liv'd more then this comes to . in short ; there 's a huge clamour ; but ( god knows ) with little reason . some particulars will possibly suffer for want of a toleration : and who are they ; but the profest opposers of the law ? and on the other side , all the friends of the government will suffer by it . if you would see the event of granting what you ask , turn but your face toward — 41 , and then blush , and repent . besides ; you 're not aware , that in contesting with the law , you quarrel with your self : there' 's your own vote against you ; and all this muttering , is no other then your factious will , wrangling with your political consent . and yet i say , stick to your conscience : let us now put the case of a real distance , betwixt this act , and your conscience . how will you divide your duty ? n. c. i 'le follow your advice , and stick to my conscience . c. now change hands , and make your self the supreme magistrate . he has a double conscience ; one that concerns himself , the other , his people . what his majesties personal iudgment is , has been declared abundantly ; what his prudential iudgment may dispose him to , lies in his royal brest . but be that as heaven shall order it . here 's the partition of your rights : the king's prerogative has nothing to do with your conscience ; and your conscience has as little to do with his majesties prerogative . the king is accomptable to god for the welfare of his people ; and you are only accomptable to god for the good of your little particular . if you cannot obey the law , do not : but abide the penalty . if the sovereign cannot relax the law , he 's as free to execute it . your conscience requires liberty , and your governour 's conscience requires order . now why you should expect , that your sovereign should bring down his conscience to yours , when you find upon experiment , that you cannot perswade your own to come up to his , is to me a mystery . to conclude , keep your self , within your sphere ; and where you cannot consent , as a christian , submit , as a subject ; that we may at last hope for some respite from the calamities of sedition , and schism . n. c. and why not scandal , and profaneness too ? for the edge of your severity might be directed to much better purpose that way . sect . xxiv . the church of england charges the non-conformists with schism , and the non-conformists charge those of the church with scandal . the matter is taken into debate . n. c. your position is , that no toleration is to be admitted , to the hazzard of religion , good life , and government . keep to that standard , and you will find that the conformists have as little pretense to a toleration as their neighbours : and that the notorious scandal on the one side , outweighs the objected schism on the other . c. this will scarce hold , if you come to be try'd by your own laws : which make it a matter of scandal , by writing , preaching , or otherwise , to publish a disaffection to the present government . but explain your self . n. c. by scandal , i mean habitual prophaneness , sensuality , dissolution of manners , &c. as by schism , i suppose you intend our incompliances with your church-discipline . weigh these two now , one against the other , and do you your self hold the balance . set up your tavern-clubs against our conventicles oppose your combinations against god himself , to our plots against the government . for you must not take it ill , if i tell ye , that atheism is become the sport , and salt of your most celebrated enterteinments . and when you have dash'd the bible out of countenance , with the story of the three grand impostors , or some such lashing piece of drollery , the questioning of god's over-ruling wisdom , by solemn arguments , and the placing of fortune in the throne of providence , is that which commonly crowns your conversations . ; c. you should not charge personal crimes upon a party , unless you can prove them to be rationally consequent to the tenets , and actings of that party . now if you can shew me any affinity betwixt our principles , and these impieties , you say something : but if you cannot , the dust of your argument puts out your own eyes . i do not wonder , i must confess , to see a nation over-run with atheism , that has been so many years under your tuition : or to find the brat of a conventicle laid at the church-door . n. c. may not we charge personal extravagancies upon your party , as well as you do upon ours ? c. yes : if you can prove the same agreement against us , betwixt the faults of the one , and the principles of the other , which we are able to justifie against you. the episcopal party , you know , stood for the king ; and it is undeniable , that the king , and church had the same cause , and fate . it is as unquestionable on the other side , that the non-conformists destroy'd both the one , and the other : not by accident neither , but by a form'd , and excogitated design , wrap'd up , and couch'd in the very mystery , and foundation of the schism : your separation from a communion with the church , resolving naturally into a combination against the entire frame of the government ; till in the end , by the help of a peinful , and well-effected ministry , the generality of the people were preach'd into this division , [ i. e. ] those that could not reach the cheat , were taught to scruple at every thing ; and those that went along with it , to make a conscience of nothing . and this is it , that has brought us to be so pester'd with enthusiasts , and atheists . n. c. but let me tell ye again , the atheists are of the other party . c. and let me enform you too , that your proceedings have made atheists , more ways then one. first : the meer quality of your cause has made atheism the interest of a great many of your partakers ; who , to put off the thought of a divine vengeance attending them , if there be a god , endeavour ( for their own quiet ) to perswade themselves that there is no god at all . secondly : the work has been carried on under the masque of holiness ; and the most desperate atheist is nothing else but a crusted hypocrite . i speak of your religious atheist , who has this odds of the profane , and scoffing wretch , that he abuses god to his face , and in his own house . the great atheists , indeed , are hypocrites ( says sir francis bacon ) which are ever bandling holy things , but without feeling ; so as they must needs be cauteriz'd in the end. it is remarquable ( as i have elsewhere recommended to your observation ) that in the holy scripture there are not so many woes pronounc'd , nor so many cautions inculcated , against any sort of people , as against hypocrites . you shall there find , that god has given the grace of repentance to persecutors , idolaters , murtherers , adulterers , &c. but i am mistaken if the whole bible yields any one instance of a converted hypocrite . thirdly : you have done more in your practises , toward the vindication of atheism , then all that ever went before ye : and he that overlooks our story , from 1640 , to 1660 , will find matter , not only to stagger a weak christian , but to put a wiseman to a second thought , and make him exclaim with the prophet ; [ lo , these are the ungodly , these prosper in the world , and these have riches in possession . then have i cleansed my heart in vain , and washed my hands in innocency , to see the same men , swearing to day , with their hands lifted up unto the lord , in a holy covenant , to defend , and preserve his majesties person : and a while after , with the same consecrated lips , blessing that cursed vote , that manifestly led to his destruction . ( the vote of non-addresses ) to see ministers , like so many pulpit-weather-cocks , shifting from party to party , till they have run through every point of the compass : swearing , and counter-swearing : and when the city was split into more factions , then parishes , still to maintein , that the whole schism was acted by the holy ghost . to find the pulpit trading only in dark , and oraculous delusions , instead of plain , and saving truths ; and the pretended messengers of peace , turn'd agents for blood : to hear , and see all this , and more , and the cause prosper too , what could the invention of man add more to this temptation to apostacy ? lastly ; your necessitated toleration , ( necessitated , i say ; for you could never have crush'd the government without it ) started so many lewd opinions , that it was some degree of modesty , for fear of a worse choice , e'en to be of no religion at all : and without dispute , many people finding it left to indifferent , of what religion they were , became themselves as indifferent , whether they were of any , or no. so that the scandal which you would spitefully fasten upon the persons of some of our party , is found to be radical , and constitutional , in the very elements of yours . neither is it all , that your imputation is misplaced ; but i am afraid you 'l find your self in another mistake . which of the two , do you account the more tolerable ; scandal , or schism ? n. c. if by schism you mean a refusal to joyn with that church , where i cannot communicate without sin ; and if by scandal , you intend such actions as are of evil example , and minister occasion to our neighbour , of falling : i think 't is easily determin'd , that the one is not to be suffer'd , and the other not to be condemn'd . c. i do not speak of this or that sort , or degree of schism , and scandal ; but in the just latitude , both of the one , and the other . that is to say , ( without more circumstance ) which do you take for the more tolerable mischief of the two ? n. c. truly , betwixt a perverse separati●…n , and a notori●…us scandal , i think the choice is hard ; but i rather incline against the scandal . c. now , if ye will believe sir francis bacon , schism is both ; [ heresies , and schisms ( says he ) are of all others , the greatest scandals ; yea more then corruption of manners . ] consider it , as it stands in opposition to unity . ( which is the bond both of religion , and society ) what can be more scandalous , then that which renders religion , ridiculous ? and that 's the effect of schism . to see so many sects , grinning one upon another , and yet all pretending to the same one , and infallible spirit . beside , that schism seldome or never goes alone ; and in truth , it is but sedition , in a disguise : for we find , that our scrupulous dissenters , can with much ease , and unity , agree in a war , though not in a ceremony . n. c. and may there not be conspiracies in scandal , as well as in schism ? there , with an evident design to bring contempt upon religion : whereas here , we find at least a colour , and pretense to uphold it . further ; the sins which i accompt scandalous , are many of them lebell'd at the prerogative of god himself ; and in short , the question is not , properly , and simply , betwixt schism , and scandal ; but betwixt schism , and all other sins whatsoever , that may be propagated by conversation , ( for that 's the latitude of scandal . ) again , let me observe from your own mouth , that heresies are scandals : and several heresies you know , both by the laws of god , and man , are punish'd with death : he that blasphemeth the name of the lord , shall be put to death . from whence you may gather some difference sure , betwixt the heinousness of the on ; and of the other . c. you will proceed by a very uncertain rule , to measure the sin by the punishment : for political laws regard rather publique conveniences , then particular cases of conscience . a man shall lose his life for picking a pocket , and but hazzard his ears for a false oath . but if you 'l refer the matter to the iust , and infallible iudge of all the wo●…ld , to god himself ; look but into that dreadful judgment upon the schism of korah . korah , dathan , &c. rose against moses , with two hun●…red and fifty captains of the assembly , famous in the congregation , and said unto them , ye take too much upon you , since all the congregation is holy , even every one of them , and the lord is among them . wherefore then lift ye your selves above the congregation of the lord ? [ and what follow'd ? ] the earth open'd her mouth , and swallow'd them up with their families , and all the men that were with korah , &c. a fire came out from the lord , and consumed the two hundred ●…nd fifty men that offer'd the incense . this set the multitude a muttering against moses , and aaron ; saying , ye have killed the people of the lord. see now , what came of this muttering too : fourteen thousand seven hundred of them were consumed by a plague . you have here , not only a dreadful instance of god's wrath against schism ; but against a schism also , carry'd on , in the stile of our present non-conformists : two hundred and fifty captains of the assembly , famous in the congregation ; which our english translation renders , an intelligent , sober sort of men , numerous among all ranks , &c. these rose against moses , and aaron , and said unto them , ye take too much upon you. the congregation is holy , and the lord is among them. wherefore do ye lift your selves above the congregation of the lord ? what is this , but the language of our age , the common objection against the bishops , for lording it over god's heritage . the consequences i leave before you . n. c. give me leave now to pass an observation upon your whole discourse . you seem to have been very punctual , and methodical in the distribution of the parts of it . a toleration , or no toleration , was the question . an universal toleration you found too wide ; a limited toleration too narrow ; and yet after all this , your opinion was , that a toleration under such and such modifications , and restrictions might be admitted : upon which terms , i was content to come to an issue with you. now , since this lender of a compliance , you have not proceeded , methinks , with that candour which i expected from you. but the main stress of your argument lies against the whole party of the non-conformists ; and ( in effect ) against any toleration at all : with little or no regard to those accommodable points , that might have brought the matter in difference to some sort of composure . c. it is very true , that i am utterly against tolerating the whole party , as a thing of certain inconvenience , to religion , and government ; and to the ruine , no less of your selves , then of the publique . will presbytery ever satisfie , the independents conscience ? or will liberty any better suit with the presbyterians ? and yet you could both of you joyn with the directory , against the common prayer ; with the authority of the pretended assembly , against that of the church ; wherein you have given proof to the world , that you were not united upon any consideration of conscience , but with a design upon a common booty . ye overturn'd the government , divided the spoil , enrich't your selves , embroiled every thing , and settled nothing . and yet in those days there was no act of uniformity to hinder you . this is enough to make evident , that the non-conformists are intolerable , in conjunction : but if you think fit to make a tryal , how far any sort of them may agree with our standard of toleration , apart , plead you the cause of the presbyterians , and let your brother independent here , ( that has been a witness to our whole debate ) take up the cudgels for his own party ; not forgetting , that in the question of toleration , the foundation of faith , good life , and government is to be secur'd . n. c. according to what latitude are we to understand that which you call the foundation of faith ? c. according to the latitude of the apostles creed ; wherein are conteined all the articles of simple faith , which are necessary to be explicitly believed . ] and whatsoever was found by them , to be necessary , and sufficient to salvation , continues so still , and ought to be so received , and acknowledged by us : without insisting upon deductions , and consequences , as points of prime , and fundamental necessity ; though occasionally , and obliquely , they become necessary too . this is the word of faith which we preach , that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the lord iesus , and shalt believe in thy heart , that god hath raised him from the dead , thou shalt be saved . here 's the foundation of faith : and in that of good life , respect is to be had to morality , that nothing be tolerated to the encouragement of loosness , sensuality , and dissolution of manners . as there is an absolute necessity of providing against doctrines and opinions of this quality ; so i think there will be no great difficulty , either of discovering , or of suppressing them : for they are of a condition so notorious , that they ly open to all people : and then so odious they are , by reason of the gross impiety , and scandal ; that they have no friends upon the face of the earth , ( for their own sakes , i mean ) but the profest enemies christianity , and nature . ( it is another case , when they are made use of in subserviency to a faction . ) so that you may save your selves the trouble of catechising your brethren upon these two points , and rather spend your time upon the remaining caution , for securing the government : which will be much more to our purpose ; for the matter we are now upon , is a question , rather of policy , then of religion . toleration discuss'd , betwixt a presbyterian , and an independent . sect . xxv . an enquiry , upon a short , and impartial survey of the rise , progress , and issue of the war , raised by the two houses in 1641. whether were more criminal , the presbyterians , or the independents . presb. in all our arguments , and pleas for toleration , we are still hit in the teeth , ( as in bar to our demands ) with dangerous practises , and opinions the murther of the late king the over-turning of the government and that we have a mind to serve the son , as we did the father . now forasmuch as the fact is undeniable and truly the exception but reasonable , as to those that did it ; we are first to clear our selves of that execrable fact ; wherein i am content to become an undertaker for the presbyterians ) and to speak afterward , to the iustification of our principles , and opinions . ; ; ; ; indep . give me leave then to plead the cause of the independents ; and to observe to you , in the first place , that the scotch non-conformists under king iames were totally presbyterian : and so were the english puritans under queen elizabeth . presb. were the anabaptists , familists , and brownists , that started up in those days , presbyterians ? indep . some dutch anabaptists came over indeed in 1560 ; but one proclamation scatter'd them immediately . and then for the familists , and brownists , you speak of ; alas ! they gave the executioner more trouble then the government , and were supprest as soon as detected . but the formal , and united confederacy was still presbyterian ; and you must overthrow all the memorials , and records of those times to gainsay it . briesly ; if you look forward , you will find the presbyterians again under king iames , at hampton court ; the presbyterians again , in the several parliaments under king charles the first ; and so the same hand still , to the beginning of the scottish broils in 1637. which was but the midwifry of the plot , they had been so long a hammering . presb. you make nothing , it seems , of the turbulent independents , that went away to new england , holland , and other parts beyond the seas , with all the clamour , and ●…ancour imaginable against the government . indep . not to justifie them in their clamour ; i must yet recommend their departure , as a fair testimony that they withdrew upon conscience . for by this secession , they put themselves out of condition to carry on a faction : whereas the presbyterians , that had a further design in prospect , stood their ground , watch'd their advantages , and gain'd their end. presb. all this is but talk , without proof . indep . it will be granted , i suppose , that the scottish tumults in 1637. and the r●…bel ion upon the neck of them , in 1638 were advanc'd upon a presbyterian accompt : and consequently , that those were of the same leven , that voted them good subjects , and money for their peins , and adopted them their dear brethren , for so doing . were not the principals of the faction in the long parliament , every man of them presbyterian ? were not the army , and ass●…mbly , presbyterian ; and all their votes , actions , and conclusions influenc'd accordingly ? who were they that invited the scots into england the second time ; ( nov 7. 164●… . ) that imposed the covenant ; prosecuted the war , under the countenance of it ; and made it the test of discrimination , betwixt the malignant , and well affected parties : that settled the directory , nay the presbytery it self ? were not these , presbyterians ? who were they , but presbyterians , that stripp't the king of his regalities , and revenues ; commission'd an army against him ; fought him , pursu'd him ; and in fine , brought him to utter ruine ? presb. you will find the late king of another opinion , in his grand declaration , of aug. 12. 1642. where he complains of the tumultuous assemblies of brownists , anabaptists , and other sectaries . indep . but still you will find in the same page , that these very people were animated , and countenanced , by presbyterians ; and acted , as the creatures , and servants , of that interest . presb. can you say that the english , or scottish preshyters did ever go about to dissolve monarchy ? indep . yes : and i do aver , that the nineteen propositions of iune 2. 1642. were as much a dissolution of kingly government , as the very act it self ( of march 17. 1648. ) for abolishing it . and the uxbridge propositions were to the same purpose . presb. you know very well , that after the new-modelling of the army , the presbyterians were able to do nothing ; and this was a good while before the king went to the scots . indep . let us see then how the presbyterians behaved themselves , after his majesty cast himself into the protection of the scotch army before newark , in may , 1646. notice was immediately given of it , to the two houses , by the commissioners of the army ; importing their adherence to the covenant , and treaty ; and that they had no fore-knowledge of his majesties coming . the english army presently march'd with 5000 horse , and 〈◊〉 , toward newark ; and our brethren fairly retreated with the prey in the foot toward newcastle . after this , both parties stood at gaze for several months ; but not without a world of tedious papers , betwixt the scotch commissioners , and the two houses , touching their ioynt right in disposing of the person of the king. but in the conclusion , the presbyterians compounded the controversie for the sum of 400000l in may they took their sovereign into their protection ; in the december following , they sold him ; and in february they deliver'd him up ; and all this , according to their covenant . presb. they must needs deliver him up , when they could keep him no longer . indep . they had at that time the city of london to friend ; a balancing vote in the house of commons ; a considerable mixture in the army ; scotland behind them ; ( entire , if ever the kings interest came in play ) and at least ten thousand men in a body . ( the royal party over and above . ) so that here was no visible force to over-awe them : and lowdon himself acknowledged as much , at a conference ( octob. 6. 1646. ) if any such course shall be taken ( says he ) or any demand made for rendring of his person , which cannot stand with his honour , and safety ; or which cannot consist with our duty , allegeance , and covenant ; nor with the honour of that army , to whom ( in time of his extreme danger ) he had his recourse for safety : it cannot be expected that we can be capable of so base an act : and if ( to shun this , and avoid occasion of quarrelling between the kingdoms ) he shall go to scotland , and resent his expulsion out of england ; and crave the assistance of that kingdom for recovery of his right to this crown : he may in a short time , raise such forces in scotland , and ireland , as with the assistance of forreign princes , these kingdoms may be made a field of blood , &c. by this , it appears evidently , that they were under no necessity of delivering the king : and you may now see their opinion of the action it self . [ if it be contrary ( say the scotch commissioners ) to the law , and common practise of nations , to deliv●…r up the meanest subject fled to them , though it be for the greatest crimes ; how much more would the world abroad condemn our army , for a base , dishonourable act , if they should deliver up their head , and sovereign , ( having cast himself into their hands ) to be disposed of at the arbitr●…ment of another nation ! presb. but yet you saw that they condition'd for his honour , freedom , and safety . indep . that 's a shuffle : for upon such terms did they render him , that they might have cast a sheep into a herd of wolves , with as much confidence , and likelihood of safety . you are here to distinguish the f●…ction of scotland , from the nation : no country affording greater instances of honour , and loyalty . nay , i have heard ( even on this occasion ) that upon the kings earnest desire to go for scotland , it was carried in the negative but by two voices . presb. can you imagine , that if they had apprehended any danger to his r●…yal person , they would not have ventur'd their libes a thousand time●… over , to have sav'd him ? indep . no , no : but on the contrary ; they foresaw the danger , debated it ; and yet expos'd him : nay , which is still worse , they reserv'd him for it . were not his majesties friends kept from him , by a strict order , at newcastle ? was he not spied , and guarded , for fear of an escape ? and upon information , that he intended one , was not a narrower watch set over him ? that they foresaw the danger , is confest by the chancellor himself . lest we should walk in the dark , ( says he ) upon obscurity of ambiguous words , i shall desire , that the word of disposing of the kings person , may be rightly understood . for dolus versatur in universalibus . for to dispose of the person of the king , as both houses , or both kingdoms shall think fit , may in some sense be to depose , or worse . and in a speech to his majesty , he goes yet further . if your majesty ( says he ) shall refuse to assent to the propositions ; ( which god forbid ) you will lose all your friends , lose the city , and the country ; and all england will joyn against you as one man : and ( when all hope of reconciliation is past ) it is to be feared they will process , and depose you , and set up another government . upon your majesties refusing the propositions , both kingdoms will be constreined ( for their mutual safety ) to agree , and settle religion , and peace without you : which ( to our unspeakable grief ) will ruine your majesty , and your posterity . and if your majesty reject our faithful advice , and lose england by your wilfulness , your majesty will not be permitted to come and ruine scotland . pres●… . these propositions , i suppose were of absolute necessity to the well-being of the publique ; they would never have been brought in competition else with the kings freedom , life , and d●…gnity ) . indep . the king was first , to iustifie the pr●…ceedings of the two houses , and to deliver up to death , beggery , and infamy his whole party . 2. to settle the militia of england , and ireland , in the hands of the parliament , for twenty years ; giving them authority to raise men , and moneys . 3. to make v●…id all honours since 1642 ; and no peers admitted for the future , to sit ●…nd vote in parliament , but by consen●… of both houses : who were likewise to dispose of all great places , and offices of honour , in england , and ireland . 4. his majesty was to swear , and sign the covenant , and command the taking of it throughout the three kingdoms ; abolishing episcopacy , and settling religion as both houses should agree . upon his majesties refusal to sign these propositions , the scotch declaration of ian. 16. 1646. tells us , that there would be a ioynt course taken by both kingdoms concerning the disposal of his majesties person . — with respect had to the safety , and preservation of his royal person , in the preservation , and defence of the true religion , and liberties of the kingdoms — according to the covenant . and according to the covenant , his majesties person was disposed of . presb. and do you believe that the two houses would have used the king any better , if he had gone to them ? they made it treason immediately , and death without mercy , for any man to harbour , and conceal the kings person ; upon a supposition , that his majesty was then in london . this was the fourth of may ; and on the sixth , the commons uoted him to warwick castle ▪ which was unvoted again upon the ninth . in ●…une , the kings going to the scots , was uoted a design to prolong the war. and this was as much the action of the independents , as the other was of the presbyterians . indep . pardon me there , i beseech ye . you see by the voting back and forward , that the house of commons was upon a hard tug , but the scottish party was totally presbyterian . but will you hear the kirk speak for it self , after the putting of the king into english hands ? they exhort their covenanted brethren , ( the assembly at westminster ) to hold fast their solemn league and covenant : to entertein a brotherhood , and unity between the nations , ( feb. 12. 1646. ) ( but not a syllable of the king ) again , ( iune 18. 1647. ) the general assembly of the kirk , presses the two houses to a speedy establishment of the presbytery : ( but not a word again of his majesty . ) and in truth , their silence is a favour , considering how they order him , when they speak of him : as you may observe in a resolve of theirs , upon a question debated at edinburgh . if the king be excluded from government in england , for not granting the propositions concerning religion , and the covenant ; and for not giving a satisfactory answer to the remanent propositions : whether in that case it be lawful for this kingdom to assist him , for the recovery of the government , or whether it be not lawful ? being put to it , we cannot but answer , in regard of the engagement of this kingdom , by covenant , and treaty , negative . resolved upon the question , 1. that the kingdom of scotland , shall be governed as it hath been these last five years ; all means being used , that the king might take the covenant , and pass the propositions . 2. that the taking of the scots covenant , and passing some of the propositions , doth not give warrant to assist him against england . 3. that upon bare taking the national covenant , we may not receive him . 4. that the clause in the covenant , for defence of the kings person , is to be understood , in defence , and safety of the kingdoms . 5. that the king shall not execute any power in the kingdom of scotland , until such time that he hath granted the propositions concerning religion , and the covenant ; and given a satisfactory answer to both kingdoms in the rest of the propositions , presented to him by both kingdoms at newcastle . 6. that if his majesty refuse to pass the propositions , he shall be disposed of according to the covenant , and treaty . 7. that the union be firmly kept between the kingdoms , according to the covenant , and the treaties . here 's presbyterian loyalty : if the king would have consented to give up his crown ; blast his conscience ; betray his trust , and sacrifice his friends ; he might perchance have been allow'd the pageantry of a court , and some mock-properties of royalty : but upon other terms , the kirk you see gives him no quarter . the king is now under the care of his new governours ; holdenby is his prison ; the question is matter of church-government ; and his majesty is prest to an alteration . some two months are spent in the fruitless desires , and expectations of his chaplains , for his advice , and comfort : and any two ( of twelve in nomination ) would satisfie his majesty . but that could not be ; ( they said ) no , not a common-prayer-book for his own private use. these were the presbyterians still . upon the fourth of iune 1647. co●…not ioyce , with a party of horse took the king from holdenby ; under colour of preventing other secret designs upon the person of his majesty . the next day , at a rendezvouz near newmarket , was read , and signed the armies engagement : compleining of the two houses , and in particular , of a vote they had past for disbanding the army . ( where note , that the houses were still presbyterian ) the sum of their engagement was : that they would disband , upon full satisfaction received , and not without it . this liberty was menag'd all this while , with much formality of duty , and respect : the houses at every turn advertis'd concerning the king's motions : and ( iune the 9th ) consulted how further to dispose of his majesty . some three days after , the army drew toward london , and alarm'd the city : ( contrary to an express order of the houses , the very day before ) a months pay was their errand , and to save carriage , they made a step from royston to st. albans to receive it . on iune the 15 , out comes a terrible representation , with desires from the army , against all arbitrary powers , and interests whatsoever : pleading the presbyterian presidents , and the principles of the two houses in their iustification . the parliament ( say they ) hath declar'd it no resisting of magistracy , to side with the iust principles , and law of nature , and nations , ( being that law upon which we have assisted you ) and that the souldiery may lawfully hold the hands of the general , who will turn his cannon upon his army , on purpose to destroy them . they demanded , the purging of the houses ; and retrenching the power of committees ; an accompt for publique moneys ; a period of the present session , and limits for the future , &c. it could not chuse but gall the two houses , to see their throats cut with their own weapons : but still they kept up their greatness of pretense , and stile ; and by an order as imperative as ever , they commanded the placing of his majesty at richmond ; in order to a treaty , forsooth , for a safe , and well-grounded peace , but the army had another game to play ; however , what the presbyterians would have done upon that occasion , may be seen in what they did afterward , at the isle of wight , in his majesties last distress , and extremity . presb. you are willing , i find , to pass over the barbarism of the independents toward his majesty , while they had him at h●…mpton-court but there is enough yet behind , to make that faction odious to all eternity . ; indep . truly no : but i would not spin out a debate to the length of a history . as to the barbarisms you speak of , let his majesty himself be heard . colonel whaley , i have been so civilly used by you , and major huntington , that i cannot but by this parting farewell , acknowledge it under my hand . nov. 11. 1647. and again ; from carisbrook castle to the general , nov. 27. 1647. the free liberty which you willingly afforded us to have of the use of our own chaplains , makes us at this time not only to acknowledge your former civilities , but , &c. so that his majesties condition appears to have been somewhat more easie at hampton-court , then before it was at holdenby . nay , most certain it is , that the presbyterians , even at that very time , did the deadly thing that brought the king to the seaffold . presb. how could that be ; when the two houses , by purging , and modelling , were subjected absolutely to the devotion of the army ? indep . thus they did it . his majesty was at that time , upon fair terms with cromwel , and ireton ; and not without large hopes of a final accommodation . ( the author of the history of independency , ( pa. 35. ) is positive , as to their treating with the king ) while this was in agitation , the presbyterians were at work on the other hand , to break the king's confidence in the army ; by imputations of treachery , and levity : to divert his majesty to the seeking of relief elswhere ; with particular undertakings of great matters from scotland , and the city of london . this way of tampering might very well put the king to a stand : which cromwel no sooner perceived , but he immediately betook himself to a course of extremity : irritated ( over and above , as is credibly affirmed ) by an advise foom argyle , in confirmation of his jealousie . his majesties next remove was to the isle of wight : where , for ceremonies sake , he was presented with four bills ; and upon his refusal to pass them , followed the vote of non-addresses . in passing these bills , his majesty had not only divested himself , and his successors , of all sovereignty ; but subjected his people to the basest , and most absolute tyranny that ever was excrcis'd upon mortals . presb. you will not call this the act of the presbyterians , i hope . indep . no , i will not : but yet i must tell you , that the presbyterians , upon this juncture , did every jote as much as this amounts to . so soon as the parliament of scotland was thoroughly inform'd of the distress , and danger of the king's condition , the matter was presently debated ; and a resolution taken to raise an army for his majesties relief . in which proceeding , they were violently opposed by the genral assembly , without any regard at all to the king's life , at that time in q●…estion . see the humble desires of the commissioners of the general assembly to the parliament , pag. 13. ( we desire that his majesties late concessions , and offers concerning religion , as they have been by the church , so may be by the parliament declared unsatisfactory . ( march 22. 1648. ) and afterward : ( ian. 10. 1648. ) that his majesties late concessions , and offers concerning religion , may by your lordships , directly , and positively , be declared unsatisfactory to this present parliament . and that there shall be no engagement for restoring his majesty to one of his houses , with honour , freedom , and safety , before security , and assurance be had from his majesty , by his solemn oath , under his hand , and seal , that ●…e shall for himself , and his successors , consent , and agree to acts of parliament , enjoyning the league and covenant , and fully establishing presbyterian government , directory of worship , and confession of faith in all his majesties dominions : and that his majesty shall never make opposition to any of these , or endeavour any change thereof . this is rivetted with a mischief . and pray'e shew me now the material difference , between precluding his majesty by a vote of no address , or by a resolution of no agreement : his honour , and conscience being equally at stake on either side . to give you the sum of all in short . the presbyterians began the war ; pursu'd it ; made the king a prisoner ; sold him ; and in the depth of his calamity , presented him with templation , instead of comfort . no composition would be heard of , but the forfeiture of his soul , for the saving of his life . presb. but the independents however , crown'd the wickedness with his blood. indep . suppose it so : they did only execute the sentence , but the presbyterians pronounc'd it . neither did they execute it , as independents ; or under colour of any impulse of religion , or conscience , but upon civil , and political pretexts . he was adjudged to be put to death as a tyrant , traytor , murtherer , and publique enemy : not for refusing to enter into a church-covenant , or establish liberty of conscience ; but upon a pestilent motive of diabolical policy , and state. whereas , the presbyterians persecuted him as presbyterians ; and depriv'd him of his royal support , dignity , friends , freedom , ( in effect ) life and all , because he would not renounce his reason , and conscience , in favour of their government . and i am verily perswaded , that you will have as little to say for your principles , as for your actions . sect . xxvi . what party soever demands a toleration , and yet mainteins , that it is destructive both of church , and state , to grant one , is an enemy to both . indep . as to the point in question ; it lies naturally before us to speak first to the thing , in it self ; and we may afterward consider it in the consequences . in the desire of a toleration , the independents ask no more then they would be ready to allow ; i wish the presbyterians could say the like . presb. in the large sense of allowing all sorts of libertines , and heretiques , as the late independent government did , i do confess you have out-done the presbyterians . indep . and yet those very libertines , and heretiques , were your white-boys , and favourites , so long as they serv'd your ends. they had none of this language from you , when they tumulted against bishops , and common-prayer ; ceremonies , and popish lords . while they were the instruments of your ambition , they were the godly , well-affected party : so that heretiques , it seems , will down well enough with your politiques , though not with your consciences : provided they will content themselves to be damn'd , and let the presbyterians alone to govern. presb. the independents made sweet work in holland , did they not ? and where was your spirit of toleration , and forbearance , i beseech you , in new-england ? indep . you cannot say that we gave any trouble in holland to the state ; or that we fell foul there upon different iudgments . in new-england , 't is true , we excluded the gortonists , familists , seekers , antinomians , anabaptists ; and subjected them to the censure of the civil power , as people of dangerous principles , in respect both of good life , and government . which proceeding of our●… methinks might serve to disabuse those that call independency the genus generalissimum of all errours , heresies , blasphemies , and schisms : and take the church way of new-england , for that sort of independency . they did also exclude papacy , and prelacy ; the latter , perchance , more out of regard to a temporary convenience , then upon any rooted principle of implacable severity . and i perswade my self , the episcopal party will witness thus much on our behalfs ; that as to the freedom of their meetings , and way of worship , in the late revolutions , they had much better quarter from the independents , then ever they had from the presbyterians : there was no persecuting of men for covenants , and directories : so that thus far , the independents have made their professions of liberty good , by their practise . presb. and are not the classical presbyterians as much for a lawful liberty , as the congregationals ? [ l●…t there be a toleration in religion , excepting to blasphemy , treason , or gross errours . ] bear with the weak ; tolerate the tolerable , and for the intolerable , we beg not your toleration . ●…ere's the sense and destre of the presbyterian divines that were commission'd about the review of the service-book . indep . this is only a new song , to an old tune . the presbyterians have just the same need of the independents at this day , that they had some nine and twenty years ago . the author of the discourse of religion has many good remarques upon the papists , that may be very well applied to the presbyterians ; and this for one. [ things past ( says he ) may afford prognostiques of things to come . so that we are to gather what you intend now , from what you did , after saying the same things before . or if you had rather come to a tryal , upon the evidence of your own manifestos , and declarations , then upon the history of your practises ; i shall make use of no other testimony against you . the presbyterians press the demand of a toleration , as a very reasonable request ; and yet they themselves have pronounc'd judgment against it , as a thing against conscience , destructive of publique order both in church , and state , and of the peace of common society . toleration ( says mr. edwards ) cannot be condescended to , without a breach of oath , and covenant . [ it is the depth of satan , this design of a toleration . he does not move for a toleration of heresies , and gross errours ; but an allowance of a latitude in some lesser differences with peaceableness . this is candidus ille diabolus , that white devil , &c. the london ministers letter to the assembly , in 1645. declares it repugnant to the solemn league and covenant . the commissioners of the kirk of scotland , do protest , and declare against it , as inconsistent with , and repugnant to the word of god. as to the influence of a toleration upon church , and state ; mr. edwards tells us , that the party tolerated will never rest working , till they get the upper hand , and suppress the other . rutherford is positive , that such opinions , and practises as make an evident schism in a church , and set up two distinct churches , of different forms , and government , are not to be tolerated . for by their principles they labour , each the destruction of the other ; and this toleration destroys peace , and unity . again , the london ministers are of opinion , that it will produce causless , and unjust revolts from the ministry , and congregations . the peoples minds will be troubled , and in danger to be subverted . heart-burnings will be fomented , and perpetuated to posterity . the godly , peinful , and orthodox ministers will be discouraged , and despis'd . the life and power of godliness will be eaten up by frivolous disputes , and ianglings . and the whole church of england , in short time , will be swallowed up with distraction , and confusion . the kingdom will be wofully weakned also , by scandals , and divisions : the power of the magistrate will not be only weakned , but utterly overthrown , by the anti-magistratical principles , and practises of the independents : and the whole course of religion in private families , will be interrupted , and undermined . not to multiply authorities more then necessary , this has been the strein of all your proceedings : imperiously , and inexorably strict , and rigorous in imposing upon others ; and as shamelesly importune , and clamorous for liberty to your selves . but what have i more to do , then to pass sentence upon you , out of your own mouths ? you cannot in conscience desire a toleration , if you understand it to be against conscience to grant it . and the very asking of that which you believe would draw a destruction upon church and state , is ground enough for a strong presumption that you intend it . presb. that which was a reasonable cause of refusal , from the presbyterians to the independents , will not hold good from the church of england to the presbyterians : either in respect of the stability of our government , or of the sobriety of our principles . sect . xxvii . in case of a toleration , or indulgence to be granted , whether has the fairer pretense to it ; the classical way of the presbyterians , or the congregational way of the independents ; in respect of their form of government . indep . the presbyterians ( you say ) are rather to be tolerated then the independents , in regard of the stability of their government , and the sobriety of their principles , to speak in this place to the matter of their government ; i think your argument is very ill grounded . for in deliberations of this nature , the cautions that occur to all magistrates are chiefly these two. first , in case of an indulgence , that it may be placed upon a party , which in probability , would not disturb the publique if they could ; but secondly , to make sure however , ( for fear of the worst ) that they shall not be able to do it , if they would . so that whether a stable , and united , or a loose , and distracted interest may with more security be indulged , is the question . presb. you may as well ask , whether order , or confusion be more tolerable in a government . indep . that order which is necessary in the government it self , is dangerous in the enemies of it . but deliver your exceptions to the toleration of those which you call independents , in regard of their way of government . presb. you have already , in a good part , sav'd me that labour . but a man shall not need to go further for an exception , then to the very denomination of them ; which imports an exemption from all iurisdiction , both eclesiastical , and civil . indep . but what will become of that exception , when i shall tell you , that those people are no more independent , then the presbyterians ? [ we depend upon the magistrate for civil government , and protection ; and upon christ , and his word , for the rule of our administrations . nay , we insist upon it , that the congregational way , is the only true , original presbytery , which is peculiar to every particular church of christ. but if you call us independent , as in distinction to subordinate , we are not only ready , as such independents , to defend our selves ; but by virtue of that very independency , we pretend to claim an advantage over the presbyterians . presb. i could tell ye of your church-covenants , and defensive leagues , against the commands of authority . indep . but i could speak homer to you , of your national leagues and covenants ; which all the world knows , are the grand engines to disjoynt communities , and remove the foundations of government . and i do not much wonder at it , where the act of a general assembly , influences the consciences of a whole nation . as to any covenants , and leagues against the magistrate ; neither do the independents practise them , nor would they stand them in any stead , if they had a mind to play the villeins ; for want of an orderly dependence , to unite , and to oblige them . presb. and for that reason , you imagine , the independents may be better tolerated , then the presbyterians . indep . truly for that main reason , with twenty great ones more in the belly of it . it were a wild thing for a man to apprehend any danger to a government , from a faction that is divided , and distracted within it self ; and without any common tye of agreement to unite it . and this do i take to be the condition of the independents , ( which for discourse sake , we will suppose to be a faction . ) their congregations are generally small ; the members of them , gather'd up here and there , and so scattered , and intermix'd with people of other perswasions , that they have neither opportunity , nor encouragement to joyn in a conspiracy . besides that in respect of their church-parity , they want that ordinary medium of superiority , and subjection , to link them together in a combination , upon the point of common interest . another difficulty will arise from the affections of the pastors themselves ; who are not without their touches of disgust , and emulation , to see themselves either out-vied , or deserted : the one , by fuller congregations ; and the other , by the removal of their members from one church to another . presb. if i am not mistaken , you have provided against the inconvenience of breaking in one upon another ; by an obligation at your entrance into any church , not to forsake it without leave . but proceed . indep . there remains yet behind , another obstacle , equal to all the rest : which is ; that the independents have no men that are eminent for popularity , interest , great fortunes , and abilities , to head them . now how it is possible for a party under all these disadvantages , to work any mischief to the state , i am not wise enough to imagine . if you object , that the late independent government had many persons at the helm , that were qualified with these circumstances . i must answer you , that whatever they were , they did not set up originally for independency . presb. so that upon the result , to save your party from appearing dangerous , you have made it contemptible . and your argument would have run very well in these words . the independents may better be tolerated then the presbyterians : for no body that has either brains , or reputation , will own independency . indep . as an interest ( you should have said ) whereupon to work any change of government . ( and this would have been point-blank to the question , and your period never the worse for 't . ) now if my reason be good on the behalf of the independents , that they may be tolerated without any risque to the commonwealth , upon the considerations before mentioned : it will hold as good against the presbyterians ; because of the very contrary circumstances in their government , and case . that is to say , they are at great agreement in the orderly reduction , and connexion of their polity ; and they have commonly found great friends to uphold them in their pretenses . my first exception to presbytery is , that it is a national church-government . and methinks two national church-governments in the same kingdom , looks like a sharing of the sovereignty , and the setting up of christs vicar against gods vice gerent . and what will the people say in the matter , but either that the government thinks them in the right , or else that 't is affraid of them ? the former supposition draws the simple into the party upon conscience ; and the latter engages the crafty upon interest . to take it now in the constitutive parts of it ; the scale of the presbytery rises thus : from parochial inspection , to classical ; from classical to provincial ; and from provincial , to national : which extensive latitude , and comprehension , does plainly discover , that there was a design of sole , and sovereign dominion in the very institution of the discipline . to say nothing in this place of the absolute , and independent authority claimed , and exercised by the general assembly ; i shall only observe this to you : that they have the best security in the world , for their subjects obedience to all their acts , and conclusions whatsoever . for life , fortune , soul , and all lies at stake : they fine , punish , degrade , excommunicate at pleasure . and this is the true reason , that from time to time , the presbyterial discipline has had the countenance of so many popular advocates , and abetters . for certainly , it is the best foundation for an alteration of state , that ever was yet laid upon the face of the earth ; and their work is three quarters done to their hand , in the very disposition of the model . only one observation more , and i have done . and that is , the provident commixture of laity , and clergy in all their counsels ; these to attaque the church , the other , the state ; by which means , they may the more commodiously carry on schism , and sedition in their proper seasons : and leave a door of preferment , and advantage , open to all comers . i will not say yet , that it is absolutely impossible for a protestant monarchy , and this double refin'd presbytery to prosper in the same soil : but if i had money in my pocket , i would not give any prince in christendom above eighteen months purchase for his crown , that should put it to the venture . for he has nothing in the world to trust to , but miracles : the gratitude , faith , good nature , and pure integrity of the party . sect . xxviii . whether may be better tolerated in this kingdom , the presbyterians , or the independents ; in respect of their principles , and ordinary proceedings . debated , first , with relation to his majesties person , and authority . indep . the government of england is monarchique ; but so attemper'd with legal provisions ▪ for the comfort , and benefit of the people , that every englishman has his interest in the preservation of the law ; as that which intitles him to the free enjoyment of his life and fortune : so that we are to frame our discourse with a regard to his majesties person , and royal authority ; the foundation , and execution of the law ; the rights , and just liberties of the people : utterly excluding from the limits of our toleration , all power or pretense whatsoever , that shall presume to usurp upon any of these particulars . now to begin with the first . what do you find in the independent way , that may endanger his majesty , either in his person , or in his prerogative ? presb. the princes of germany would answer you , that your proceedings are sangu●…nary , and violent : not only against your actual opposers , but against the very ordinance of magistracy it self . indep . what are the furies of the anabaptists to us , that have declared against them , as well as you ? but if you can fasten upon those of the congregational way , any antimonarchical opinions , or practises , which are either wrap't up in the bowell of that profession , or naturally issuing from thence : and make good your assertion , by proving what you say , to have been the formal act of any one of our churches by it self , or more of them in combination , i will never open my mouth after it , in a plea for the independents . presb. it were a hard matter indeed to fasten any thing upon the principles ●…f a party , that professes to have no principles , but still refers it self to the guidance of a further light. indep . and yet you can blame us for our principles , though by your own confession , you know not what they are . now for the reserve of acting according to a further light ; it is exprest , in the ordinary form of our church covenant , that it is to be reach'd unto us out of the word ; which most assuredly will not lead us into any evil. if this be all you have to say against the independents , i would gladly hear what defence you are able to make for the presbyterians : either simply , and in themselves ; or else comparatively with any other sort of people . nay , i should not much care if you took the iesuits themselves for your foil . presb. how can you say this ? considering , [ that thundring of excommunication , which has sounded in all ages , since the beginning of the papal reign , against kings , emperours , &c. and these practises iustified by their decretals , and canons ; divines of greatest authority , and some of their councils : ascribing to the pope a power of deposing princes that are heretical●… or favourers of heretiques . the iesuits doctrine of king-killing hath made them odious , &c. indep . do you tell us of papalexcommunications , justified by canons , divines , councils ; deposing of kings for heresie ; and the iesuits doctrine of king-killing , & c ? the disciple should speak reverently of his master : for i assure you , a iesuits cloak sits exceedingly well upon the shoulders of a presbyterian . to discipline , must all the states within the realm be subject , as well the rulers , a●… the ruled . ( according to the discipline of the kirk of scotland , printed in london , 1647. the person of the magistrate ought to be subject to the kirk , spiritually , and in ecclesiastical government : submitting himself to the discipline of the kirk , if he transgress in matters of conscience , and religion . beza , buchanan , ( and in truth , the whole brotherhood ) are for the excommunication of princes . so that there 's presbyterial excommunication you see , as well as papal . and in case of superstition , and idolatry , the presbyter can depose too , as well as the pope , in case of heresie . was not the queen-regent in scotland ( 1559. ) deposed , upon the encouragement , and with the approbation of willock , knox , and their fellows ? as not doing her duty to the subjects ; and as a vehement mainteiner of superstition , and idolatry ? did not the commissioners of the kirk ( in 1596. ) threaten an open protestation against king iames , and his council , in case of either pardoning , or restoring the popish lords that were at that time under banishment ? as to the iesuits doctrine of king-killing ; we are able not only to match , but to out-doe it , out of the school of the consistory . there is no doubt but the iesuits are guilty of delivering doctrine that naturally leads to king-killing conclusions . but do ye find that ever they said in plain terms ; it is lawful for subjects to take up arms against their sovereign , in case of religion ; or that ever they publiquely applauded the murther of a prince , after the fact was committed ? certainly , in this particular , the consistorian copy goes beyond the papal original . upon a dangerous uproar that was raised by the ministers , in edinburgh , ( 1596. ) the king by proclamation , discharged all iudicatories from sitting there . whereupon the ministers prest a bond of association , upon the noblemen , and barons ; and sent a letter ( drawn by robert bruce , and walter balcanquel ) to the lord hamilton to head them : for by the motion of god's spirit , and animated by the word , the people had gone to arms , in defence of the church , &c. not to trouble you with a rabble of unnecessary instances : in the ninth section , there has been said more than enough upon this subject already . you shall now see the veneration they have for the persons of princes . gibson , in the pulpit , denounced that curse against king iames , that fell upon ieroboam : that he should die childless , and be the last of the race . ( an. 1585. ) which words , by the assembly , ( with much a do , and after declining the question , were found to be scandalous . david blake preached , that all kings were the devils barns , and his majesty had detected the treachery of his heart . for which he was cited before king and council , and appeal'd to the presbytery , who by their commissioners moved his majesty for a surcease of the process , with a charge , in case of refusal , to protest against the proceedings of the counsel . quasi pulpita ( sayes cambden ) a regum authoritate essent exempta . as if pulpits were priviledged from the authority of princes . iohn welch , at the high church in edinburgh , preached , that the king was possest with a devil , and that the people might rise lawfully , and take the sword out of his hand . but what is all this , in comparison with the license of the late times here at home , when the two houses , and assembly were daily entertained with sermons and pamphlets of this quality , for which the authors had their thanks , and imprimanturs ? but i shall rather confine my self now , to the arbitrary excesses of the scottish presbytery , as the model of the covenanted and blessed reformation . to come now to their usurpation upon the civil power . king iames was surpriz'd at ruthuen ( 1582. ) under pretext of religion , and kept 5 months a prisoner . this act was publiquely justified by the assembly at edinburgh , as done for the preservation of the kings person and religion . in the case of andrew melvil : it was insisted upon , that treason in the pulpit , fell under the cognition of the presbytery , and that neither king nor counsel , primâ instantiâ , ought to meddle with it . but it is a much easier matter to find what a prince may not do , ( under the inspection of a presbytery ) then what he may . he must not a receive an embassader , nor b pardon an offender , without the approbation of the kirk . nor so much as chuse his own guards ; c court-officers , or counsellers , nor issue out any proclamations or decrees . they are to direct him d what forfeitures to take , and how to dispose of them : when to arme , and whom to trust. if the king has a a mind to feast an embassader , they presenly indict a fast e ; and curse the magistrates almost to excommunication , for not observing it . nay so little power had king iames with these people , that f when his mother was under a sentence of death , he could not get them so much as to pray for her , that god would illuminate her with the light of his truth , and save her from the apparent danger she was in . on the other side ; they claim to themselves the power of warr , and peace ; of calling and dissolving assemblies ; and whensoever they shall think fit to say , that the good of the church ; the glory of god ; or any spiritual end is concerned , they make no scruple in the world , of levying armes , men , monies ; seizing of castles , and forts ; issuing out of warrants for members of parliament . a they impose oaths and covenants against the king himself ; b encounter proclamations with anti protests ; c rescind acts of counsels , &c. and what 's the colour for all this haughtiness and state ? the ministers ( forsooth ) are christs deputies ; and their acts are christ's ordinances ; whereas iudges , counsellers , and parliaments are but the king's substitutes , and their laws only humane . presb. you are not any more to conclude against the presbyterial government , from the president of some factious assemblies , than against the constitution of parliaments , from the president of some seditious compositions and elections . indep . neither do i charge these imposing usurpations upon the confederacy of a cabal , or a faction , but upon the original scope , and mystery of the discipline ; for i find them rooted in the very foundation of their policy . their pragmatical intermedling in civil affairs , and matters of state , is warranted by their book of government ; where it is said , that the minister handleth external things , only for conscience cause : now i would fa●…n know that notion which may not some way or other , be made relative to conscience . for limiting the magistrate in the exercise of his power , they have this plea ; that though the ministers do not exerce the civil iurisdiction , they teach the magistrate how it should be exercised , according to the word . so that the prince is put to schoole to the masterships of his parish , to learn every point and circumstance of his duty . now for the absolute , and boundless iurisdiction of their general assemblies : they tell us , not only that the kirk is to appoint times and places convenient for their meeting ; but that as well magistrates , as inferiours , are to be subiect to the iudgment of the same ; in ecclesiastical causes , without any reclamations or appeal , to any iudge civil or ecclesiastical . is not this a dethroning of majesty , to set princes , and peasants upon the same level in point of subjection to their resolutions and decrees ? presb. not at all ; for the magistrate is to assist , and maintein the discipline of the kirk ; and punish them civilly that will not obey the censure of the same . indep . in truth it is a goodly office , you have allotted the chief magistrate ; to set him cheek by iowle with the beadle of the parish : you are to direct the punishment , and he is to execute it . but what if he should prove refractary , and dispute yo●…r authority ? in case of contumacy , he is as liable to censure ( you say ) as another person . and then you have no more to do , but to resort to your ordinary method of calling in the noblemen , barons , gentlemen , burgesses , and commons to your assistance against him . let me now marque to you , two passages in your discipline , that make two shrewd discoveries . [ a minister ( you say ) must not frequent , and commonly haunt the court , unless either sent by the kirk , or called upon by authority for his counsel , and iudgment in civil affairs . and afterwards , you say , that , ministers may and should assist their princes , when required , in all things agreeable to the word ; whether it be in counsel , or pariament , or otherwise . provided , that through flattery of princes , they hurt not the publique state of the church . whence it appears ; first , that simple presbyters may do well enough in parliaments , or councils ; though bishops are excluded : were it not secondly , for the danger of creating a kindness betwixt the king , and the kirk ; which in consequence would frustrate the main design . for the prime end of this church policy is the overtopping and subjecting of the secular power : and it was wisely done to temper the very foundation of it with principles of opposition to the order , and well being of civil government . sect . xxix . the question of toleration , ●…etwixt presbytery , and independency ; debated , with regard to the foundation , and execution of the law . presb. what if you had put the question betwixt a peaceable , and obedient sort of people , and a generation of men that cannot live out of contention . indep . the m●…n of contention , i suppose you would have me understand to be the independents . what 's the quarrel to them upon the matter now before us ? presb. only this : that they are intolerable in any government . how many plots have they had upon this kingdom , since his majesties return ? there was venner's rising ; a conspiracy in the north ; another in ireland . indep , and all this while , y●…u forget the rebellion in scotland , which was professedly presbyterian ; beside that , these disorders which you speak of , were nothing at all to the independents : but ( one way or other ) these instances are to no purpose without some authoritative allowance ; and pray'e let us agree upon it , that only the conclusions of the kirk , on the one hand , and of the church on the other , may be insisted upon , as the acts of either party . presb. i do not find that the independent churches ▪ come to any resolutions at all . indep . you have the less to say then against their principles ; and i wish the indep●…ents could say the same thing for the presbyterians . how far , i beseech you , are humane laws binding ? presb. ●…o far forth as they are agreeable to the word of god. indep . and who shall determine what laws and constitutions are agreeable to god's word ? presb. the church lawfully constitute ; which all godly princes , and magistrates ought to hear , and to obey their voice , and reverence the majesty of the son of god speaking in them . indep . i need not ask what church that is ; for iohn m●…rellius was excommunicate , for mainteyning in a certain treatise , that tell the church , did not belong to the consist●…ry , and the book was burnt . but to the poynt . if the word of god be the rule for humane laws ; and the presbytery , the sole expounders of the word of god ; the law of the nation is at the mercy of the kirk already : for 't is but saying , that this or that law is not agreeable to the word of god , and there 's an end on 't . presb. the kirk has power to abrogate and abolish all statutes , a●… ordinances concerning ecclesiastical matter●… , that are found n●…ysome , and unpro●…table , and agree not with the ●…ime , or are abused by the people . indep . if the kirk has this power , the pope himself pretends to nothing beyond it . are not your determinations as pere●…ptory ; and your orders as imperious ? but i am speaking here , as to the latitude of your pretended iurisdiction . you may abrogate all statutes ( you say ) concerning ecclesiastical matters . and i say , on the other side , that you may upon that ground , abrogate all the statutes in the christian world : for i defie the whole race of mankind , to shew me any one law extant , or the very supposition of a law possible ▪ which may not some way or other ▪ be said to concern ecclesiastical matters . presb. you take no notice , how this power is clogg'd with limitations . if they be found unprofitable , unseasonable , or to be abused by the people . indep . very good : and if the kirk shall think fit to find them so or so ; pray'e what remedy ? b●…t their own avowed actions , and declarations , are the best comments upon their own principles . under king iames in scotland , nothing was more ordinary , then over-ruling acts of parliament by the acts of the assembly : did they not erect a counsel of the church in edenborough , 1596. and take upon them to convene , examine , and censure at pleasure such as they suspected to hold any correspondence with certein excommunicate lords ? did they not also appoint to meet in armes , at the tryal of them ? nor did they think it enough , to rescind ▪ or supersede acts of parli●…ment and general ass●…mblies : but people must be qu●…stion'd too for yielding obedience to acts of parliament , and of general counsels under colour of unjust laws . wee 'l close this particular with the judgment of the commissioners of the general assembly of scotland , of may 5. 1648. the authority of parliament is one thing ; an act of parliament another thing . we do still acknowledg their authority , when we obey not this or that act. and whatsoever be the treason of impugning the authority of parliamen●… , it can be no treason to obey god rather then man : neither did the general assembly of glasgow , 1638. and such as were active for the covenant at that time , commit any treason , when they impugned episcopacy , and p●…rch articles , although ratify'd , and strengthen'd by acts of parliament , and standing laws then unrepealed . presb. when we have once gotten power into our hands , we are all too apt to abuse it . but i cannot yet perswade my self that the root of these practises is to be found in their principles . their books of discipline are publick ; and no government would ever entertein it , if there were such danger in it . indep . how was the covenant entertein'd ? or who would have dream'd of any harm in a league for the preservation and defence of the king's majestie 's person and authority ? and yet the presbyterian interpretation , and salvo of subordinating his majesties safety and preservation , to the defence of the true religion ( immediately following ) and the kirks assuming to themselves the judgment of that religion , brought both king and church to destruction . nor can you choose but observe the holy discipline , and covenant , to be both of a stile , and both of a design : their claim concerning ecclesiastical matters , hooks in all laws ; and in the defence of the true religion , they usurp an authority over all magistrates . this discipline ( at the best ) is but a worm at the root of civil government : wheresoever it comes , the secular power hangs the head , and droops upon it , and never thrives after . but to sovereign princes , a man might say of it , as god said to adam , of the apple : in the day you eat thereof , you shall dye the death . now as it is manifestly destructive of law in the very foundations of it , to carry an appeal from all temporal governours and constitutions , to the scepter and sentence of christ , sitting upon his tribunal in the presbytery ( the language of beza himself ) so likewise have they their preparatory artifices for obstructing the execution of law , and for the weakening , and distracting of a government before they enter upon the great work of dissolving it . and this is effected by the trojan horse ( as one calls it ) of their excommunication , that carries all the instruments and engines of publique ruine , and confusion in the belly of it . by virtue of this device , they do not only impose upon all ministers , and courts of justice ; but they may , when they please ( as hooker observes ) send out their writs of surcease ; and fetch in the whole business of westminster-hall , to the bar of the consistory . or at the fairest , ( according to beza's distinction ) if they allow the civil iudg to try the fact ( as mere civile ) yet de iure controverso , ecclesiasticum syn●…drium constat respondisse : the church was to determine in matter of law , and the civil magistrate after that , to pronounce sentence , according to that decision . briefly , beza gives the presbytery the same power under the gospel , which was exercised by the synagogue under the law. but now to the point of your excommunication ; and to shew you in what manner it is apply'd , to hinder the execution of law ; and to obstruct civil iustice. by one clause of your discipline , you may abrogate what laws you please , concerning ecclesiastical matters : and by another ; the minister is authorized to handle external things , for conscience cause : so that your authorit●… is without controul in ecclesiastical matters ; and so is your liberty of handling civil matters as ecclesiastical . upon which bottom was founded an assertion not long since mainteined at the savoy , i. e. that the command of a most lawful act is sinful , if that act commanded may prove to any one a sin per accidens , now if the kirk shall think fit to abrogate a law ( as nothing more frequent ) whoever shall presume to execute that law , is sure to be excommunicate : and the supreme magistrate himself is no less lyable to church censure , for not executing that sentence , then the inferior magistrate was for his original disobedience . the bishop of st. andrews ( in 1586 ) was excommunicate for advising king iames to a declaration against certein fugitive ministers that were denounced rebels ; and contriving the statutes of ( 1584. ) touching the kings authority in ecclesiastical causes . knox is for excommunication in all crimes , that are capital by the law of god ; and in effect , for the churches tryal of the very fact. it was not for nothing that the two houses held the assembly so long in play , upon this point ; and in despight of all importunities to the contrary , kept the staffe still in their own hands ; and reserved to themselves the ultimate appeal , in cases of excommunication . presb , was it not rather the work of the independents ? who ( to say the truth ) were as much against any settlement at all as against that ; and against the very convening of the assembly it self . indep . and they had done the state a good office , if they had totally hindred it . but this is beside our business . we have said enough as to the dangerous influence of presbytery , upon the security of his majesty and the law. it remains now to be considered , with a respect to the rights , and liberties of the people . sect . xxx . the question of toleration , betwixt presbytery , and independency , debated , with a regard to the rights , liberties , and advantages of the people . indep . you see how it is with kings , parliaments , and laws , under the dominion of presbytery . we are now to look into the condition of the nobility , gentry , commonalty , and of the presbyterial clergy it self , under that discipline : which will best appear , by a view of the powers which the presbytery claims , and exercises . but let me commend one note to you as previous to that examination . this party has constantly screw'd it self into the world , by an oath of mutual defence : which oath they apply as well to the ruine and extirpation of their opponents , as to their own preservation ; by making it a test of good affection to that interest ; and excluding all people whatsoever from any office , or benefit ecclesiastical , or civil , without subscribing it . you cannot deny but this oath in the very institution of it , is a violence both upon law , and conscience ; and consequently , that the imposition falls heaviest upon those that make an honourable , and religious scruple of their actions . so that here is already exposed the most considerable part of the nation , for the subject of their displeasure ; with their lives , liberties , and fortunes at mercy ; as you will find upon a further consideration of their usurped authority , and iurisdiction . presb. leave this way of general discourse , and come to particular instances . where is it , that you find this exorbitant power that you talk of ? indep . in the very declaration of the commission of the general assembly of scotland , 1648. page 53. [ the duties of the second table as well as of the first : as namely , the duties between king , and subject ; parents , and children ; husbands , and wives ; masters , and servants , and the like ; being conteined in , and to be taught and cleared from the word of god , are in that respect , and so far as concerneth the point of conscience , a subject of ministerial doctrine , and in difficult cases , a subject of cognizance and iudgment to the assembly of the kirk . the dispute here was about the assemblies authority , in the question of war or peace . is not this at one blow to destroy the order of all relations , political , natural , and moral ? princes must not presume to make war or peace ; to enact laws , or abrogate ; to spare or punish , without ecclesiastical licence . the subject must go to the masters of the parish , to know whether , he shall obey authority , or resist it . and after the same manner it fares with parents , and children ; husbands , and wives ; masters , and servants ; so that there is not any person , either publique , or private ; or any action , or office , of regard to community , family , or alliance , that scapes their pragmatical scrutiny , and inspection . presb. so far as these duties are matter of conscience , there is no doubt , but they are of ecclesiastical cognisance ; and further then so , they make no pretension . indep . but you must give me leave to tell you then , that their consciences are larger then other peoples . the old nonconformist ( as au expedient for the settling ecclesiastical affairs ( page 43. ) proposes the setting up of work-houses for the poor ; the carrying on of the fishing trade ; the taking off of protections ; that none may be imprison'd but according to law : and the abatement of taxes . the assembly at glasgow 1638. passed an act concerning salmon fishing , and another about salt pans . and all this i warrant ye , so far as they concerned point of conscience . but if you would see , what the consistory calls conscience , in the full extent , we must repair for satisfaction , to their direction , and practises in the matter of conscience , and excommunication . the kirk proceeds to excommunication in all capital crimes , where the offender that deserv'd to dye , is suffer'd to live . and in cases of fornication , drunkenness , swearing , cursing , sab●…ath-breaking , wanton words , contempt of the orders of the church ; oppression of the poor ; deceipt in buying and selling , by wrong mete and measure . presb. well ; and what hurt 's in all this ? indep . none at all : but let me proceed . they censure also excess in apparel , meat , or drink , uncomely gestures ; contentiousnes , without reasonable cause ; chiding , brawling , vainwords ; every fault that tendeth to the hurt of a man's neighbour , or to the hindrance of the glory of god : whether by force , or fraud ; word , or deed ; manifestly , or secretly ; purposely , or ignorantly : and the judgment of the whole is left to the discretion of the church . so that your very thoughts are not free . [ the spiritual ruler ( says the book of discipline ) iudgeth both inward affections , and external actions in respect of conscience , by the word of god. upon which ground they take upon them to censure the very suspicion of avarice , and pride : superfluity or riotousness , in chear or rayment . but upon dancers , robin hoods , and all games that brings loss , they have no mercy . these particulars are extracted to a syllable out of the most authentical records they have to shew for the warrant of the scottish discipline ( our blessed model . ) but many people perchance will make it a matter of nothing to be excommunicate upon a supposition that the anathema is the uttermost spite of the censure . they never dream of car●…ings , iogges , pillories , shaving their beards , and cutting half the hair of their heads . banishments , pecuniary mu●…cts , close imprisonments , and all sorts of studied defamations . nay , if any man refuse to subscribe their confession of faith , rule of government , and manner of worship , he is forthwith excommunicate ; and upon remonstrance of a commissioner from the presbytery to the civil iudg , a warrant granted , commanding him to conform by a day certein , or to be outlawed . if he conform not within that time , his estate move able is forfeited ; and if not within a year and a day , he loses his whole revenue for his life . after this , at the further instance of the churches commissioner , out go letters of caption , for apprehending of his person , and committing him as a rebel . and if he be not to be found ; these are follow'd with letters of inter-communing , forbidding all men either personally to confer with him , or by letter , or interposed person to correspond with him , upon pein of the inter-communers being iudged and reputed a rebel of the same guiltiness . as to the general rule of excommunication ; no person ( wife and family excepted ) is to have any communication with the excommunicate ; be it in eating or drinking ; buying or selling ; yea in saluting or talking with him : unless at commandment or license of the ministry for his conversion . his children begotten and born after that sentence not to be admitted to baptism , till of age to require it ; unless the mother or some special friends , members of the kirk , offer and present the child , damning the iniquity and contempt of the impenitent . there are that do not allow husbands to accompany with their wives in the state of excommuni cation . now upon what has been deliver'd , let any man consider the unchristian rigor of this disciplinary inquisition ; not only in the actual tyranny of it , but in the more miserable consequences . first as it scandalizes the gospel , and makes the death of christ seem to be no effect , by imposing upon us such conditions of salvation , as if the blessed angels should descend , and indue humane shapes , they were not able to perform . for it is not what christ and his apostles say , that will do a man's business here , without the urim and thummim of the parochial session , and the defects of the written word , are to be supplyed by unwritten traditions out of the repository of the presbyterial cabale . in this case it is that we are to have recourse to the apostles precept ; of standing fast in the liberty wherewith christ hath made us free , and not to be intangled again in the yoke of bondage . ( a yoke much more intolerable then that of the law ; ) for the iews had their lesson before their eyes , and knew what they were to do . but here , it matters not what either scripture or conscience says , without the subsequent concurrence of the presbytery : to whose supreme , and infallible judgment ( and not to our own ) we are to stand or fall either to heaven , or hell. the rigor of this discipline is m●…st un-christian also , as it crucifies weak consciences with needless , infinite , and incurable scruples ; with scruples that haunt , dog , and torment us in the most necessary , and ordinary actions of humane life . at the church ; at the table ; at the market ; at home , and abroad . at all times , in all places , and upon all occasions , in our words , thoughts , and deeds . as to excess in eating . it is censurable either in the quantity , or in the quality . so that in the first place the eldership is to provide one common gage for the stomachs of the whole parish , for fear of a mouthful too much . and in the second p●…ace , it is made a matter of salvation , or damnation , whether a man eats beef , or venison . and so , for excess in apparel . one inch more , then to cover your shame , is a sup●…rfluity ; and one peny more , in the pound , then the allowance of the presbytery , is made as much as a man's soul is worth . it is the same thing for vain words . a nurse shall not dare to still her child but with a psalm ; and you must not presume so much as to ask what a clock it is , without a text ; to prove that the question tends to edification . but the hardest case of all is , that of suspicion . the very suspicion of avarice , or pride , you say , makes a man lyable to censure . this , methinks , is very severe , for a man to be delivered over to sathan , because the brotherhood suspects him to be proud , or covetous ; whether he be so , or no. presb. 't is to be presumed , that the church will proceed according to a iudgment of charity , and discretion . indep . did not the kirk excommunicate the whole multitude for a robin-hood ? nay at st. iohnstons , they cursed not only the men , that should take part with the king , but the very horses , and spears . ( here 's an excommunication by way of advance ) upon the action of duke hamilton in 1648. the whole party were excommunicate ( even after the defeat : ( as appears by the scotch act for renewing the covenant . ) in some cases again , they are as tender and cautelous . andrew hunter ( a prime stickler for the discipline ) attended bothwel as his chaplain , in a rebellion , 1593. but king iames could not prevail with the assembly to excommunicate him for it ; ( though no doubt was made of the fact ) nay , on the contrary , they would not be quiet , till they had got bothwell's pardon . and upon gowry's attempt ( in the year 1600. ) his majesty required the ministers of edenburgh to give god thanks in their churches for his deliverance , and they refused it . but to the point we were upon . as nothing can be more contrary to the temper and dictate of the holy gospel then the claim of this arbitrary and censorious iurisdiction : it seems to me to stand in an equal degree of opposition to the rules of society , humanity , and reason . the king is upon his good behaviour to the elders , and deacons ( who are iudges of others manners ) as well as the meanest man in the parish . he is indeed ( as is observ'd by the author of presbytery displayd ) the chief member of the general assembly ; but they allow him no negative voice ; and if he has the fortune to be out-voted , he must cause the sentence to be executed , whatever it be , under pein of censure , and consequently of deprivation . of acts of parliament , and inferiour magistrates , enough is spoken already . as to the state of the nobility , and gentry , they are either conformists to the government , or dissenters ; and must take their lot in it , to be either sovereigns , or slaves : ( for that 's the distribution of it . ) upon the mayn these domini dominantium challenge by their commission to be no respecters of persons ; and so lay upon all sorts , and conditions of men in general at their good pleasure certein common impositions , importing their servility , and subjection , and whose livery they wear . i must not omit one peculiar obligation , the nobility , and gentry have to these their gracious masters : which is the easing them of their patronages , and presentations to benefices , because these things fl●…wed from the pope , and the corruption of the canon law only , and are contrary to the word of god , and the peoples liberty of electing their own ministers . [ for ( say they ) this is altogether to be avoided , that any man be violently intruded , or thrust in upon any congregation . but this liberty , with all care , must be reserved to every several church , to have their votes , and suffrages in election of their ministers . observe now , i beseech you , the peoples liberty , in this choice . violent intrusion we call it not , when the counsel of the church , in the fear of god , and for the salvation of the people , ●…ffereth unto them a sufficient man , to instruct them . if his doctrine be found wholesome , and able to instruct the simple , and if the church justly can reprehend nothing in his life , doctrine , nor ut●…erance , then we judg the church unreasonable , if they refuse him , whom the church did offer ; and they should be compelled by the censure of the counsel , and church , to receive the person appointed . here 's liberty upon compulsion ; and it is most palpable , that your whole design is the interest of a party . now to the men of ordinary business , and traffick . the presbytery will put an end to all their disputes , about free trade , priviledges , and matter of commerce , with a wet finger . did they not by an act of assembly at dundy 1592. prohibit the scots trading with any of the king of spains dominions , under pein of excommunication ? and his majesty refusing to comply with them , ( at the iustance of the spanish merchants ) did they not proceed to censure the merchants ? so that there shall be no trading , but where they please : and no markets neither but upon their good liking too . did they not by their proper authority discharge the munday-market in edinburgh ? but the shoo-makers indeed were too hard for the elders this bout , and told them plainly , they would turn out all their ministers by head and shoulders first , before they parted with their market . upon which menace they were quiet . the author of presbytery display'd , gives you some instances of the presbyteries interposal , in actions of debt , and menacing landlords , and creditors , with excommunication , unless they laid down the precess : upon pretense forsooth , that though it was in a civil cause , it had yet a spiritual prospect : withdrew people from their callings , and hindred the progress of the gospel . and this is no more , then any man will reasonably expect , that looks but with half an eye upon the very frame , and provision of the discipline . is not he a mad man , that thinks to recover a debt at common law , against any member , or members friend of the presbytery , when ' ●…is but flying to the canon of the consistory , to silence the dispute , and telling him , that he is contentious without a reasonable cause ? cannot the church put an end to strife among brethren , as well as the civil magistrate ? it is a matter of evil example , and tends to the hurt of our neighbour . if the creditor be obstinate , and will not take good counsel , out flyes an excommunication against him , for refusing to obey the orders of the church . i would now fain understand , what it is that sets so many of the ministers a gog upon this platform ; for certeinly , they are of all mortals the most contemptible : ( the iunto , and some few of the select ones excepted . ) their discipline divides the church patrimony into four parts one for the pa stor ; another for the elders , deacons , and other kirk-officers ; their doctors , and schools . a third for charitable uses : and the rest for repairing of churches , and other incidental charges . so that the clergy is strip'd already of 3. parts of 4 of their legal maintenance , and then for the poor pittance that is left ; so much as will keep life and soul together , they are allow'd in meal , and mault ; and totally dependent upon the mercy of the church for the rest . and yet for this pittiful stipend , they are to be call'd to accompt how they spend it ; and their wives , and children , to be thrown at last upon the charge of the parish . in their preaching , they are limited by the direction , and design of their leaders : only tenants at will in their cures ; and lyable to be removed , suspended , or deposed at pleasure . this arbitrary dominion , together with the shameful condition of their bondage , has proved so great a discouragement to the ministry , that they have found themselves forc'd to press ministers into the service , as they would do souldiers . and where they find men of abilities for their purpose , the civil magistrate is call'd upon , to compel them to the ministry . nay rather than fail , the nobility and gentry must bring up their children , to the service , and good liking of the kirk , under pein of church-censure . a jurisdiction exercised according to the latitude of this discipline , one would think , might satisfie any reasonable sort of people . but alas ! if they do not as much exceed their own bounds , in their practise , as they exceed all other models in their pretensions , they reckon it as good as nothing . they can cite people out of a remote iurisdiction . deprive whole presbyterys for dissent . ( kings declaration , page 314 ) call nine presbyters of fifty , a general assembly . ( spotswood , p. 490. ) demolish churches ( 304. ) and dispose of the patrimony ( 311. ) and what not ? more needs not be said , as to the empire they exercise over king , lords , and commons , severally , and in divers respects : we come now to their usurpations upon the common rights , and priviledges of mankind . chiding ( as i told you ) they have drawn within the compass of ecclesiastical censure . so that masters shall not reprove their servants , nor parents their children ; without leave of the eldership , ( to the utter dissolution of the order and discipline of private families . ) nay , they have taken in brawling too , and made every billingsgate quarrel , every brabble betwixt a butter-whore and an oysterwench , a subject of consistorial cognizance . under the censure of lewd customs are comprized all sorts of publique sports , exercises , and recreations , that have been long in use ; upon the worshipful pretense ( forsooth ) that they had their original from the times of paganism , or popery : as comedies , interludes , wrastlings , foot-ball-play , may-games , whitson-ales , morrice-dances , bear-baitings ; nay the poor rosemary , and bayes , and christmas-pye , is made an abomination . presb. and are not the independents as much against these fooleries as the presbyterians ? indep . no , we take our own freedom , to forbear what we dislike our selves ; and allow other people their liberty , to practise what pleases them . but to proceed . all games that bring loss are prohibited , tennis , bowles , billiards ; not so much as a game at stool-ball for a tansy , or a cross and pyle for the odd penny of a reckoning , upon pein of damnation . — shortly , boys shall not play at span-counter , or blow-point , but shall pay tell to some presbyter . — what do you think now of uncomely gestures ? that a man shall be given to the devil , for lolling upon his elbow , or set●…ing on his back-side , in the presence of the deacon of the parish . and the like for excess in eating , or apparel . every bit we put into our mouths , and every rag we put upon our backs , becomes a snare to us. it may be either too much , or too costly : and what reformation soever the kirk shall think fit to order , either in our clothes , or dyet , must be observ'd , with the same degree of submission , and obedience , as if the matter in question were an article of our creed . their censure of vain words is yet more rigorous , and reaches for ought we know , to the honestest endearments , and familiarities of friendship , and conversation , even to the exclusion of common decency , and civility . but let our words be what they will , we are still dependent upon the good pleasure of the eldership , whether they will pronounce them vain , or edifying . but why should a man expect to scape for words , where thought it self is censurable ? suspicion of avarice , pride , &c. ( as you have heard ) he that sues to recover a debt , shall be suspected of avarice . he that refuses to crouch like the asse under the burthen , shall be suspected of pride . and for a man and a woman to be only seen together , shall be ground enough for a suspicion of incontinency . nay , they shall be cited , interrogated , close-committed , and put to bread and water upon it ; and compell'd to swear in propriam turpitudinem . after all this , and that no proof appears , and that they purge themselves upon oath : it shall be yet enacted by the assembly , that if ever these two shall be seen again in company together , unless at church , or market , they shall be taken pro confesso for guilty . a whole volume ( says the author of presbytery display'd ) might be written of young women by these courses , disgraced , and defamed : of many families divided , and scatter'd ; whereas before there was never any jealousie betwixt the man and the wife . presb. these are objections rather of passion , and extravagance , then of argument . indep . they are no other then such conclusions , as the premisses will very well bear . presb. i have heard indeed of several wild , and sensless scruples charg'd upon the independents : as that they have made it a matter of religion to piss abed , and ride hobby-horses , because it is said , except ye become as little children , ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven , matth. 18. 3. indep . pray give me leave to requite you with three or four presbyterian scruples : out of bancrofts survey of the pretended holy discipline , page 368. move mr. cartwright , and some other our reverend brethren to deliver their iudgments , whether all laying out of hair be forbidden to all women : especicially at their repair to the publick meetings of the church ? a question riseth in my mind , whether one that professeth christ truly , may , according to the same profession , delight in , and use hawking , and hun●…ing ; so no unchristian behaviour otherwise be joyned therewith . let me know your iudgment particularly : whether it be in any respect tolerable for women , that profess religion , and the reformation , to wear dublets , little hats with ●…eathers : great gowns after the french , and outlandish fashion : great ruffes , and hair , either cu●…led , or frisled , or set out upon wires , and such like devices . i would be glad to have your iudgment in the fourth commandment : whether the strict prohibition of not kindling fire on the sabbath , be of the substance of the moral precept . in the same author you will find a catalogue of pleasant names too . the lord is near. more tryal . reformation . discipline . ioy again . sufficient . from above . free gifts . more fruit. dust. and in the next page , he tells you of one snape that proceeded toward the baptizing of a child , till they came to name it , richard , and then brake off , for fear it would not have prov'd a christian , if he had so baptized it . i cannot pass from these phantastical absurdities in your practises , without some reflection upon those in your constitution , to say nothing of your disagreements among your selves , about your officers , and discipline . what can be more ridiculous than to authorize a cobler to correct majesty , mechanicks to determine in points of faith ? are not your elders joyn'd in commission with your ministers , for the examination of the person that offers himself to the ministry , in all the chief points in controvorsie betwixt us and the papists , anabaptists , arrians , & c ? are not the elders , and deacons fit persons ( think ye ) to be made iudges of theological niceties ; and to admonish , and reprove a minister , that propones not faithful doctrine ? has not your general assembly , rather the face of a council of state , then of a counsel of the church ? ( and in truth the business too . ) behold the composition ( i beseech ye ) of the pretended assembly at glasgow , 1638. seven earls , ten lords , forty gentlemen , and one and fifty burgesses , to determine of faith , and church censures . now to take a brief view of the whole . what greater slavery in the world , can be imagined , then to live in subjection to a government ; where you shall have , neither freedom of conscience , law , person , or fortune ? where you shall not speak , look , move , eat , drink , dress your self ; nay , not so much as entertein a thought , but at your peril ? and to be in this bondage too unto the meanest , and most insolent of your fellows ? for none but such will ever engage themselves in the exercise of so inhumane a tyranny . and for a further aggravation of the shame , and guilt of the faction : let me desire you , but to cast an eye upon their proceedings , under king iames in scotland , and here under queen elizabeth ; where you shall find that they were never so impetuous , and bold , as when they found the king , and the state in distress , upon the apprehension of forreign dangers . and so for the queen , upon the business of eighty eight : whereas the independents never so confined themselves to the prosecution of their private interests , as to hazard the betraying of their countrey to forreigners : and particularly , in the late engagements at sea , against the french , and dutch , many of them have given signal testimony , and proof of their fidelity , and valour . i should not have engross'd this whole discourse to my self , but in persuance of a point , wherein you have confest before-hand , that you had nothing further to oppose : that is to say , concerning the principles of the parties in question . neither is any thing i have hitherto deliver'd , to be taken as a challenge , and claim of a toleration , of such a quality , as to enter into a competition with the peace and security , of the publique : but this i pr●…mise my self , that if it shall appear reasonable to authority , to allow of any relaxation , the independents plea , upon all considerations of common equity , and safety , will stand good against that of the presbyterians , from whose triple-crown'd consistory ; that lords it over souls , bodies , and estates ; over kings , nobles , and commons ; over laws , magistrates , and all sorts , and ranks of men , and interests ; that turns gospel into law ; communities into deserts ; men into beasts ; good lord deliver us . the end . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a47928-e2140 a amesius de consci . b indulg . & toler . p. 13. c liberty of conscience upon its true and proper grounds , p 3. d free disputation , p. 3. indulg . & toler . p. 13. rom. 2. 14. laud against fisher , p. 197. rom. 7. 7. rom. 4. 15. rom. 5. 13. 1 tim. 1. 13. indulg . & toler . p. 13 , 14. mat. 5. 5. luke 19. 27. * in his book of the covenant . mat. 24. sleydan's comment . l. 4. davila delle guer. civ . di fran. l. 10. ibid. lib. 14. strada de bello belgieo , l. 5. liberty of consc. upon its true and proper grounds , p. 12. disc. of relig. preface . institur . de libertate christiana . 1 joh. 4. 3. ●…5 . lib. of consc. p. 37. lib. of consc. p. 38. li●… . of consc. p. 24. lib. of consc. p. 13 , 14. lib. of consc. p. 27. lib. of consc. p. 56. ex. coll. p. 2. 3. a ex. coll. p 84. b p. 339. c p. 609. d p. 764. e p 392. ex. coll. p. 533. p. 494. spotswood . hist. scotl. p. 487. ibid. p 479 mr. baxter's holy common-wealth . printed 1659. robert douglass his serm. preach't at scoone , ian. 1. 1651. printed 1660. i. goodwin's anti-cavalerism . the observator . right and might well met , anno 1648. parliament , physick . ahab's fall. interest of england in the matter of religion . 1660. the peoples cause stated . an. 1662. lex rex . an. 1644. ius populi 1644. declarat . touching the 4 bills march 13. 1647. vi●…dicia contra tyrannos . printed 1648. tenure of kings . 1649. goodwin's defence of the king's sentence . mr. baxter's holy common-wealth . tenure of kings . 1649. a survey of the grand case . printed 1663. mr. baxter's holy common-wealth . mr. faircloth before the commons . mr. sympson . scripture and reason for defensive arms. 1643. english 〈◊〉 ●…he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ●…nce of ●…'s ●…ce . 〈◊〉 good●… . 〈◊〉 poli●… of p. in●… . lex rex . mr. war'●… analysis of the covenant . english translation . lex rex . de monarchin absolutâ . mr. cary●… at taking the covenant . 1643. the phaenix . e. c. marshall's sacred panegy●…ique . mr. case before the commons . 1644. mr. cala●…'s sp●…ech at guild-hall . 1643. mr. cala●…y's n●…bleman's p●… 1643. mr. herle before the house of lords . 1643. mr. strickland on a thanksgiving . 1644. m. bridges ▪ on revel . 4. 8. ex. coll. p. 150. an. 1642. lex r●…x . ibid. right and might . ex. coll. pa 2. ibid. i●…d . scobell act●… . &c. a part 2. p. 3. b p. 7. c p. 51. d p. 65. e p. 178. f p. 293. a scobell acts , &c. p. 41. b p. 60. c p. 73. d p. 75. e p. 128. f p. 8. pat 2. g p. 149. h p. 153. i p. 400. k p. 42. l p. 53. m p. 75. n p. 99. o p. 101. p p. 128. q part 2. p. 16. disc. of relig. title pag. ex. coll. p. 135. disc. of relig. par. 1. p. 28. disc. of relig. par. 1. p. 38. disc. of relig. par. 2. p. 22. d●…sc . of relig. par. 2. p. 45. disc. of relig par. 2. p. 45. disc. of relig. par. 2. p. 38. ibid. a disc. of relig. pars 2. b peace offering . c indulg . & toler . d disc. of relig. pars 1. e peace offering . f indul. & toler . disc of r●…lig . pars 2. disc. of relig. pars 1. ibid. disc. of relig. pa●…s 1. disc. of relig. pars 1. de conscientiâ , lib. 〈◊〉 4. cap. 15. disc. of relig. pars 1. * indulg . & toler . p. 7. sp●…swoods hist. scotl. p 320 , 322. petition to the queen , p. 15. gilby . king 's large declar . p. 66. ex. coll. 〈◊〉 p. 498. a two papers of proposals , pa. 5. b petition for peace , p. 20. c d●…sc . of relig. preface . ex. col. 19. disc. of relig. indulg . & toler . p. 31. ex. coll. pa 3. ibid. 21. in●…ulg . & tolr . disc. of relig. s●…otswoods h●…st . scotl. p. 327. a petition to her majesty , p. 25. b second admon●… . p. 37. ibid. p. 25. first admonit . p. 2. second admonit . p 59. ex. c●…ll . p. 3. indulg . & tolerat . disc. of relig. pars 1. large declaration , p. 53. ibid. p , 41 , 42. ibid. p. 52. ex coll. p. 8. ibid. p 9. matth. 23. v. 23 , 24. disc. of relig. acts 5. 38. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , p. 207. london ministers letter to the assembly , ian. 1 ▪ 1645. harmony of the lancashire ministers . p. 12. mr. faircloth , on iosh. 7. 2●… . rutherford's free disp. p. 360. bayly's dissw●…sive epist ded. 1645. sion-house to the assembly , 1645. anti-toleration , p. 16. ☞ the ki●…ks testimony against toleration p. 10. acts and ordinances , part 1. p 97. ibid. 165. ibid. 171. pa. 30 , 31. ☞ petition for peace , p. 4. 1661 , mr. calamy , of the ark , p. 21. a scob. acts , pars 1. p 37. b p. 135. c pars 2. p. 10. d p. 175. e p. 372. disc. of relig. pars 1. liberty of consc. p. 58. disc. of relig par. 1. p. 40. dise . of relig. par. 1. p. 41. indulg . & toler . p. 24 liberty of consc. p. ●…8 . 〈◊〉 . liberty of conscience , p. 58. cambden ' s eliz. 1591. cambden ' s eliz. 1591. ibid. d●…sc . of relig. par. 1. p. 24. ann●… 1577 king 's large dec. p. 73. large declar . p. 77. ib. p. 137. * the liturgy . ex. coll. p. 604. p. 13. apol. conf. p. 137. de reform . advers . eccles . p. 95. beza cont . sarav . p. 116. view of the government , p. 5. ibid. p. 6. ibid. p. 122. ibid. p. 125 ibid. 138. ibid. 140. ibid. 146. ibid. 118. petition for peace , p. 5. the old non-con formist , p. 21. cap 27. cap. 15. art. 32. art. 32. art. 15. art. 20. cap. 14. view of the government , p. 5. ibid. p. 24. 25. ep. bullingero , fol. 98 baxter's five disputations , disp . 5. cap. 2. sect . 40. view of the government , p. 41. view of the gover. p. 63. ibid. p. 73. ibid. p. 90. ibid. p. 92. ibid. 64. ib. 69 , 72. * scripta anglican . p. 455. hooker's eccles. pol. preface . two papers of proposals , p. 7 , 8. institut . lib. 4. ca. 9. sect . 14. spotswoods hist. scotl. p. 540. mr. durells view of the government , p. 173. the late kingslarge declarat . p. 75. calv. inst. li. 3. ca. 19. sect . 15. ibid. lib 4. ca. 10. sect . 27. petit. for peace , p. 79. hooker's eccl. pol. li. 2. sect . 8. ibid. ibid. calv. inst. ca. 9. sect . 7 tryal of the engl. liturgy . p. 4. ibid. p. 5. page 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , p. 127. proposals to his majesty , p. 22. ibid. p. 23. a rom. 2. 22. b by the familists . c by the antinomians . chillingworths safe way . p. 57 rom. 7. 23. chillingworth's safe way , &c. p. 104. a rut●…erford's due right of presbyt . p. 356. b ibid. p. 352. c ibid. p. 407. d ibid. p. 415. rutherf . free disp. p. 36. ibid. p. 27. scobel's acts , part 1. p. 340. essay of atheism . psalm 73. v. 12. essay of unity of religion . numb . 24 16. numb . 16. 1. vers. 3. verse 32. verse 35. verse 41. verse 49. disc. of relig. p 25 chillingworth's safe way , &c. p. 186. rom. 10. 8 notes for div a47928-e98230 ex. coll. p. 737. ex coll. p. 532. interest of engl. p. 44. ex. coll. p. 307. scobel's acts , part 2. pa. 7. answer to the vote of sept. 24. 1646. ☞ ☞ ibid. p. 60. old non-conf . p. 41. petit. for peace , p. 20. par. 1. p. 6. gangraena part 3. p. 282. ibid. 303. ☞ rutherf . free disp. p. 267. gangraena , p. 293. free disp. p. 98. cotton's way , p. 11. burton's vind. p. 18 disc of relig. part 1. p 3. ibid. p. 4. scotch discipline , p. 59. ibid. p. 78. p. 79. hist. of reform . printed 1644. p. 195. spotsw . hist. p. 418 ibid. p. 431. ☞ spotsw . hist. pa. 343. ibid. 367. ibid. 419 : ibid. 423 ibid. 430. ibid. 322. ibid. 330. a ibid. 324. b 398. c 419. d 405. e 334. f 354. king 's large declaration , p. 415. a ibid. 87. b 98. c pag. 416. scotch discipline p. 79. ibid. p. 79. ibid. p 97. ibid. p. 91. ibid. 61. ibid. 44. ad . book of disc. p. 92. 2d . book of disc. p. 〈◊〉 . s●…tsw . hist. p. 418. ib. p. 398 kings large declaration , p. 416. declar. of the commission . p 55. and 56. spotsw hist. p. 345. page . 79. presbytery display'd . p. 4. ibid. p 39. book of discipline . p. 56. ibid. p 57. spotsw . hist. p. 436. unchristian rigor . excess in eating censurable . apparel . vain words . suspicion of pride . spotsw . history . p. 395. ibid. 460. book of discipline . p. 61 bo●…k of discipl . p. 97. book of discipl . p. 29. ibid. p. 29. spotsw . hist. p●… . 393. ibid. 394. p. 10. book of disc. p. 98. book of discipl . p. 34. ibid. 61. ibid. p. 35 ibid. p. 32. ibid. p. 44. presb. display'd . p. 9. pig to field , 1586. ed. brow. to field . walker to field . cholm to field . dangerous positions , p. 104. book of discipl . p. 28. ibid. 60. kings large declaration , p. 315. ☞